2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. All the accused are here. From the Defence
10 teams I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes.
11 Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls who are present.
12 I don't see the witness. Are there any preliminaries?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes, briefly. First
14 of all, just a bit of the housekeeping and schedule. We, the Prosecution,
15 is not going to be calling Witness 183. We have decided not to call that
16 witness. That's Danilo Zoljic. He's not a protected witness. And he was
17 scheduled for later on in this week. What we intend to do is to call an
18 investigator to talk about the Muslim identification book and explain what
19 that book is and what it shows. What we would propose to do is have our
20 investigator Erin Gallagher testify about that book. She is not on our
21 witness list so we would be seeking to add her just for that topic. It's
22 something which Mr. Blaszczyk could do. He's been our sort of
23 catch-all for everything that comes up as an investigator. He's on the
24 list. But we would like to give him a bit of a break at the moment and
25 he's got other things I'm sure he needs to work. And I don't think there
1 is any prejudice in that because it's really something that any
2 investigator could do once they look at the exhibit and learn about it. I
3 know in other cases that I've been on we have listed initially on our
4 witness list an investigator will discuss how this picture was obtained or
5 something like that. So that is our plan and what we hope to do following
6 Witness 164 who is available today, Mr. Petrovic, Pirocanac.
7 And one further point, I've discussed this with Mr. Ostojic, the
8 way we plan to proceed if it's all right with Your Honours is we'll finish
9 this entire testimony concerning the Muslim book, cross-examination --
10 road book, excuse me, cross-examination and any redirect. Then
11 Mr. Ostojic will finish his cross-examination regarding the Drina Corps
12 collection. I think I'll have a short redirect and then we can move to
13 the next witness. That's our plan.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you confirm that, Mr. Ostojic?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I do, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, before we proceed any further, what are your
17 comments, if any, about the Prosecution request to add a new witness,
18 Erin Gallagher to testify on the Muslim ID book? The alternative is,
19 obviously, that it will be dealt with by Mr. Blaszczyk himself, so I see
20 no point in -- this anyway, Ms. Nikolic?
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good
22 afternoon, my learned friends from the Prosecution. Concerning this
23 change, we've exchanged a few e-mails and letters with our friends from
24 the Prosecution on that topic. What Defence teams request, at least the
25 Nikolic Defence, was that they forward a short 65 ter summary for this
1 witness so that we would know what his testimony would be in regard of the
3 Since she did not participate in the collection of statements,
4 based on which the people from the book were identified, we haven't
5 received a summary, therefore we are still waiting for that and the
6 material provided by our learned friends so that we would know about the
7 subject matter of her testimony.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Yes, Mr. Nicholls? Go ahead.
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: We could certainly do a short 65 ter summary. I
12 don't think it's absolutely necessary because if I give you a little bit
13 of information on the book, this is virtually the same with some
14 corrections. It's the same Muslim identification book which has been
15 exhibited in the two prior trials. It contains pictures of persons from
16 the videos and their names and explains how they've been identified either
17 by themselves for some people who made it through these events or whether
18 they've been identified by family members or others. So what the
19 investigator will do is explain really what's in the book and how it's put
20 together. There is not going to be a whole lot of information coming in
21 from outside the book but I can provide something very short, I think,
22 which explains how that is going to work.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that would be better. I think that would be
24 better. So for the time being, I take it that there are no radical or
25 fundamental objections to this witness being brought over to deal with
1 this piece of evidence rather than Mr. Blaszczyk himself. Am I right in
2 thinking so? I know that silence is golden but ... All right. Thank you.
3 So I would take it that this would be the procedure we will be following.
4 One moment.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are also thinking on this subject matter based on
7 our respective past experiences whether there is indeed any need for a
8 witness to come and testify on this book. Obviously, if there is going to
9 be a cross-examination, then obviously the need for a witness arises. But
10 there is agreement between the two sides that the book will be tendered
11 and the information you seek to produce arises or shows on the face of the
12 book itself, then perhaps you can agree to dispense with the need of a
13 witness. But if there is even one single Defence counsel that wishes to
14 cross-examine anyone in particular on this Muslim ID book, then obviously
15 you need a witness. But in any case, message is if you require a witness,
16 the witness is going to be allowed to testify. If you come to an
17 agreement that you can dispense of a witness, please let us know and we
18 can proceed accordingly.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, and I'll talk to my friends, Your Honours and
20 see if we can do that.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Okay. Anything else? Mr. Ostojic?
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
23 Honours. I'd like, if we can, to go into private session and raise this
25 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means. Let's go into private session,
2 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 [The witness entered court]
10 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Blaszczyk.
12 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We are going to finish off the
14 chapter that we were discussing yesterday and then we'll revert to your
15 previous testimony with Mr. Ostojic's cross-examination.
16 Mr. Nicholls.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
19 Q. If we could just continue, we were in chapter 4, Zeleni Jadar, at
20 pages 70 and 71. When we left off, we were nearing the end of this
21 presentation, at least in pages. I think about 20 minutes or slightly
22 less of video and we will just continue and stop at a couple of places.
23 If we could play it, please.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. This is not in the book but I've stopped it at 48.26. We've just
2 seen the car moving now again, shooting out of the window of the car and
3 we were passing a couple of large buildings. Can you tell us where
4 Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin are going, which direction they are
5 heading in now and where they are?
6 A. They are going towards Srebrenica. This is an overview of
7 Srebrenica from the hills above Srebrenica on the way from Zeleni Jadar to
9 Q. Okay. And, Your Honours, if we could go now to pages 66 and 67 of
10 the book, 2986. The reason for that is there is one chapter which just
11 have a few pictures of Srebrenica and it has the pictures that we saw
12 yesterday on the way to the wood factory and also on the way back rather
13 than splitting the town photos up into two sections. Yes, 66 and 67. I
14 think we have 76 on the monitor. That's right. Thank you. And if we
15 could continue to play.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. Thank you. We are now at just about the frame on page 66 A. Can
19 you tell us where this is, Mr. Blaszczyk?
20 A. This is Srebrenica. The car is moving towards the centre of
21 Srebrenica, to the place close to this market mosque.
22 Q. Thank you. And if we could continue to the next photo on page
23 66 B?
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. Thank you. We are now at approximately the photo on page 66 B.
2 And you've marked it here but this is -- well, you tell us where we are,
4 A. We are in the centre of Srebrenica. This is the street between
5 the market in Srebrenica, market square, and the department store in
7 Q. Thank you. Actually, Your Honours, it's not a question for
8 Mr. Blaszczyk but we've included these photos so that later it may help to
9 identify places on a different video.
10 If we could continue now.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. We are now at page 74 B which is the last
13 chapter 5, Mosque Azemina. This is, I think, quite self explanatory but
14 where are we now, Mr. Blaszczyk, in the video and which direction is
15 Mr. Petrovic heading in?
16 A. We are at the edge of Srebrenica. This is Vidikovac settlement
17 and the car with Mr. Borovcanin and Petrovic is driving towards Bratunac,
18 Potocari, Bratunac, and we see the picture of the mosque located in this
19 Vidikovac settlement. And on page 75, I attached two current pictures of
20 the same mosque. The first picture, picture number 1 from page 75, this
21 is the same -- the view from the side of Srebrenica, from the direction of
22 Srebrenica, of the same mosque. And on the picture number 2 from page 75,
23 this is view of the same mosque but from direction of -- from Potocari.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. We can play now.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. NICHOLLS: This is just before the end at 1.00.28.8.
2 Q. Do you know where this is, just this last big hills we see just
3 before the tape ends?
4 A. The last hill is according to Witness Petrovic, it was recorded in
6 Q. Thank you.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. NICHOLLS: We can stop.
9 Thank you. I don't have any other questions at this time.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Does any one of the
11 Defence team wish to cross-examine the witness? Let's go through the list
12 first. I had the Popovic team asking for ten minutes.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, we have no questions for this witness, Your
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
16 The Beara team wanted 30 minutes.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: We will a have a few questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, please. Unless there is an agreement with
19 some other Defence team that they go first.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
21 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I have a couple --
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. I have a couple questions just to follow up on some of the points
24 that my learned friend asked you. When he asked you yesterday about the
25 software that was used to put together this book, I think on page 60 and
1 61 you stated that it was used -- or Zoran Lesic is the person who
2 actually used the software and created this?
3 A. It was the person Zoran Lesic. He created, yeah, he created this
4 presentation with my help of course. I was present during this
6 Q. Did you ever find the name of that software?
7 A. I knew the name and I believe this is VR Worx, and plus Photoshop,
8 of course. And it was played in QuickTime player.
9 Q. Now, what part of this presentation or this -- that you shared
10 with us today, what part was created by Zoran and which was created by
11 you? I know you mentioned that you participated in it but --
12 A. You mean technically it was created by Zoran Lesic, but I was
13 present during this creation. I confirmed all the locations and I was the
14 person who pointed out where we should put the particular places or
15 pictures, how we should play with them.
16 Q. Okay. And if we can have 65 ter 1517 up on the screen, please?
17 While that's coming up, sir, you mentioned this and it's an aerial
18 photograph that you mentioned on page 32, line 17, on yesterday's
19 transcript. I just have a couple of questions on that, if you don't mind.
20 Well, I think I can still ask the question until they get up on
21 the screen because I'm sure you're familiar with it; it's the aerial
22 photograph on the 13th of July in Potocari. Can you tell me more about
23 that aerial photograph? From whom did you receive it?
24 A. This is aerial photograph from our exhibit list. I don't remember
25 right now from where we received it, but I believe it was aerial
1 photograph from US.
2 Q. Okay. I know it's on the exhibit list. I'm asking for the
3 source. As you sit here today under oath, do you know if it was aerial
4 photograph that the United States government provided to the OTP?
5 A. Yeah. This is -- this is the photograph provided to us by the
6 government of US.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know who put the markings on this photograph, sir?
8 A. No, I don't know.
9 Q. Do you know who put the top caption that's in the box which states
10 overview of
11 A. No, I don't know.
12 Q. Do you know who added the red numbers on the right-hand side of
13 that box that's on the top centre of the photograph?
14 A. It's evidence unit.
15 Q. Evidence unit --
16 A. I believe this is evidence unit.
17 Q. Where in the United --
18 A. No, evidence unit, it's our ERN number.
19 Q. And I'm only stopping because I think we are overlapping a little
20 bit and I apologise to you, sir.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Not a little bit, a lot.
22 THE WITNESS: I apologise.
23 MR. OSTOJIC:
24 Q. We are overlapping a lot. Just so I'm clear, sir, in this centre
25 box that's presented here on the right-hand side, that's the evidence
1 unit's identification number that they placed on this document here in The
Hague after they received it from the
3 A. This red letters with number were put by evidence unit. This is
4 our ERN number.
5 Q. And what about the date that appears immediately below the box
that's in the centre of the page,
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Okay. When did you receive this aerial photograph?
9 A. It was long time ago, before I arrived when I joined the Tribunal,
10 for sure.
11 Q. Now, did you assist also in selecting that this photograph be used
12 as part of the presentation that you're going to give in your testimony?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. Who made that selection?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Now, being the lead investigator at least for the last year and a
17 half plus, and being the -- playing that role in the years that you have
18 as second in command, can you tell me what efforts you undertook to
19 determine not only the source of the documents but who may have placed the
20 writing in yellow on this photograph? Did you do any inquiries into that?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. Do you know anyone who did, who was under your command or superior
23 to you?
24 A. I don't think so.
25 Q. How about with respect to the box that's in the centre of the page
1 that we see where it's identified as overview which has the red ERN number
2 on it?
3 A. Also the same answer.
4 Q. And would it be the same answer for the date that falls underneath
5 that box in the centre page?
6 A. I believe it was created by investigators before me who used to
7 work for this case much before.
8 Q. And are you speaking of a particular investigator, sir?
9 A. There was a group of investigators, more than right now.
10 Q. Was that under the leadership and tutelage of Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez?
11 A. Yes, I believe.
12 Q. Thank you. I think we are done with that exhibit. Sir, I want to
13 just clarify, if I may, the point because in the beginning of your
14 testimony yesterday, you mentioned that you received several copies of
15 this Petrovic video: One from the BBC, one from himself, one from the
16 Ministry of Defence and I think also one from Studio B, correct?
17 A. I am not aware about any copy from Studio B. I know that we
18 received a copy from broadcast of Studio B from Mr. Borovcanin and another
19 copy we received from Mr. Petrovic.
20 Q. So there is only two copies that you received, correct?
21 A. If you are speaking about the copy of Studio B broadcast, yes.
22 Q. And in all fairness, I know that it was the Studio B broadcast
23 that came as you've identified it from Mr. Borovcanin. So is it just
24 those two videos that you had in your possession and you showed us the
25 difference between the two where you felt it was edited, correct?
1 A. If we are referring to the Studio B edited programme, yes.
2 Q. Okay. And now, you mentioned though in your testimony that you
3 also received a copy of the Petrovic video from BBC in 2002. What was
4 that about then?
5 A. I don't know but I know that we received a copy from BBC of the
6 raw material -- the copy of the raw material from Mr. Petrovic.
7 Q. What about the copy of the Petrovic video as you identified it
8 from the Ministry of Defence in 2007?
9 A. What do you want to know?
10 Q. Well, is that also a copy of a video that you received that is
11 similar or the same as that -- those copies of videos that you received
12 from either Studio B or from Mr. Borovcanin or Mr. Petrovic?
13 A. This is also the copied material of the raw material of
14 Mr. Petrovic as the BBC copy.
15 Q. So the 2007 video from the Ministry of Defence was the same
16 material which you identify as raw material that you received from
17 Mr. Petrovic identified as the BBC copy, correct?
18 A. Yes, is correct.
19 Q. Thank you. That's all I have on this issue and I think with the
20 Court's permission we will come back to the Drina Corps collection a
21 little later today. Thank you, sir.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. Madam Nikolic, no
23 cross-examination. Mr. Stojanovic, you had asked for 20 minutes.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.
2 A. Good afternoon, sir.
3 Q. Let us go through a couple of exhibits in order to eliminate any
4 misunderstandings that may have arisen from yesterday's evidence. Let us
5 look at P02478 first, please. And while we are waiting for this exhibit
6 to appear, I will only let you know that this is one of the aerial
7 photographs of the industrial zone in Potocari. Which is ERN number
8 01068728, 01068728. And can Madam Usher assist us in providing
9 Mr. Blaszczyk with a pencil in order for him to make certain markings?
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, I believe that we can orientate ourselves as to the
14 buildings or facilities that are involved here. I suppose it wouldn't be
15 much of a difficulty for you to identify the buildings?
16 A. You are right.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you please use the pen that you have and mark with
18 a cross the place where you located a group containing
19 Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin and Mr. Kingori on the 13th of July in front of
20 the white house, as you called it?
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. Would you please mark the place where the entrance
23 into the UN base in Potocari was?
24 A. [Marks]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We can't have everything an X. So if you put an
1 arrow -- you know, you can cancel that mark?
2 THE WITNESS: How come?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher will assist you. You can erase it and
4 then do it again and just put an arrow sort of mark.
5 THE WITNESS: I should mark as --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just an arrow indicating the entrance or following
7 the entrance to the compound.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you please place the letter O or a circle on the place where
11 the observation post used by the UN base was, if you know where it was
12 located, of course?
13 A. You mean OP? Or observation post in front of you?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know whether it fits in this photo but, the
15 nearest OP, I doubt it having been there, I doubt it.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
17 Q. And Mr. Blaszczyk, we are not talking about the OP Papa, that's
18 the closest. Rather, I'm referring to whether you know whether there was
19 an observation post within the UN base compound in Potocari, in fact the
20 site that you were just looking at.
21 A. It was on the left side of the road heading towards Srebrenica.
22 But I am not 100 per cent sure, but I am thinking that the place is close
23 to -- close to entrance to the base.
24 Q. Can you please indicate with a circle roughly where the
25 observation post was?
1 A. I'm not sure about it. [Marks]
2 Q. Thank you. In view of your familiarity with the place, can you
3 give us the approximate distance between the place you marked with a cross
4 as the place where Mr. Borovcanin, Kingori and the others were and the
5 place you marked with an arrow as the entrance leading into the UN base.
6 In your estimate, what is the distance in metres?
7 A. It's about 50 metres, the distance is about 50 metres from the
8 entrance to the UN base to the place where Mr. Kingori and Borovcanin were
9 standing in the group.
10 Q. You'll agree with me that there were no obstacles there impeding
11 the line of sight toward the building that we refer to as the white house?
12 A. Yes, yes, I agree.
13 Q. Thank you. Could you please place today's date at the bottom
14 there and your signature because we will not be needing this. It's the
15 4th of December and your signature, please.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. Yesterday in your testimony inter alia, at page 18626,
18 lines 6 to 8, you said the following: Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin
19 stopped their vehicle between the white building and the blue building,
20 the distance between which was some 100 to 150 metres. Do you remember
21 that part of your testimony?
22 A. Yes. I remember but I think I said that I think that they parked
23 the car over there because the first footage we have, we started from in
24 the front of -- from the -- of the front from white house and Feros
25 building. They started to recording the events in the front of the Feros
1 building and white house.
2 Q. Could we please look at an aerial shot of the Dutch base which is
3 P0153 -- 523? While we are waiting for the shot, I just wanted to tell
4 you, Mr. Blaszczyk, that this is one of the aerial shots dated the 13th of
5 July, around According to what you know, does that tally to --
6 with the time at which such photographs -- those photographs were
7 approximately taken?
8 For the transcript I wanted to repeat that this is P01523.
9 While we are waiting for the photograph, Mr. Blaszczyk, my
10 question was: Since it says in the transcript that some time of taking
11 the photographs was mentioned, the 13th of July, around , does
12 that correspond to the time when Mr. Pirocanac's footage was made and you
13 referred to it yesterday regarding Potocari?
14 A. Yes. If we see the footage of Mr. Petrovic, we can see, I think,
15 that the first time code is about 1500 hours, taken on the 13th of July
17 Q. Am I correct if I say that when looking at the photograph before
18 us, that that part of the road between the white house and the blue
19 factory, such as you indicated, was full of vehicles, buses, trucks,
20 civilians, and UN vehicles?
21 A. Yes, you are correct.
22 Q. The car in which Borovcanin and Pirocanac came, would it be
23 logical that it be left in front of the Dutch base and that they continue
24 on foot from the blue factory to the white building -- from the white
25 house to the blue factory, especially keeping in mind everything that was
1 recorded on that day in Potocari?
2 A. It is possible.
3 Q. Can we agree, then, that at this moment, you cannot tell us
4 precisely where the car had been stopped and what part the cameraman went
5 on foot to cover the distance between the white house and the blue
7 A. You are right. I cannot tell the precisely the place where they
8 parked the car.
9 Q. Thank you. Let us look at another photograph from the set before
10 you. It is P02986. Page 12, photographs B and D. You'll see it on the
11 screen and you also have it in front of you. It is your set, page 12,
12 photographs B and D. I suppose you have the photographs in front of you.
13 Am I correct in saying that in that entire area in Potocari, there were
14 back-packs, bags, items, clothing left, and maybe the most of it was where
15 the armed personnel carriers of the Dutch Battalion were as can be seen
16 from the photograph D. By analysing the footage and the photographs,
17 would one be able to confirm that?
18 A. We can see some rubbish, some box over there, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Let us look at a short excerpt from the footage that
20 we also saw yesterday. It is V 0006747. Prosecution Exhibit P02054. The
21 time is 6.56 to 7.02. I believe that should be approximately the time
22 reference. We'll wait for the excerpt to be shown. While waiting, I just
23 wanted to say that that excerpt is where we can see the blue factory, the
24 truck, the tractor and Mr. Borovcanin, Kingori, and my questions will have
25 to do with that.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop there. Thank you.
3 Q. Will you agree with me that on this still we can see a red tractor
4 towing a white water tank with the letters UN?
5 A. Yes. I agree.
6 Q. Will you agree with me that the discussion among those present is
7 taking place in front of the tractor and the tank with the UN letters?
8 A. Yes, it's visible.
9 Q. Thank you. I will have some additional questions regarding this
10 topic for some other witnesses.
11 On the same footage, and the same exhibit, could we please go to
12 13.40 to 13.50? That part of the footage is something we saw yesterday,
13 Mr. Blaszczyk, as well. The APCs and some music in the background.
14 I wanted to remind you yesterday at page 18633, pages 11 through
15 to 15, said that you believe that the music that can be heard was actually
16 playing in the vehicle where Zoran Petrovic was. Let us all have another
17 look at that.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. I believe the time is right. It is indeed 13.40 to 13.50 on the
21 footage. What do you base your conclusion on, mentioned yesterday when
22 you said that you believed that the music that can be heard was played in
23 the vehicle where Zoran Petrovic was?
24 A. I believe that Zoran Petrovic together with other person that
25 followed this armed vehicles and they parked these armed vehicles before,
1 and he started to recording -- to record these armed vehicles when they
2 were shooting and he was standing next to his car when he -- which he used
3 to follow these vehicles. And the only explanation for me that it could
4 be hear music from this car because it's -- this is some distance from
5 these armed vehicles and the shooting would be quite dangerous to stay
7 Q. Would you today exclude the possibility that the music in the
8 background was actually edited on to the footage before it was released
9 for TV broadcast?
10 A. Of course I cannot exclude such situation.
11 Q. Thank you. Since we still have the armoured vehicles in front of
12 us, I wanted to ask you about what you could conclude based on the footage
13 referred to. Would these armoured vehicles be Pragas with anti-aircraft
14 or anti-tank cannons, guns?
15 A. Yeah, it seems that they are Pragas.
16 Q. Is that the reason for which, on the interactive CD we saw
17 yesterday, you termed this armoured vehicles Praga or was that because of
18 something else?
19 A. I think the first vehicle is a Praga. The second one is also the
20 armed vehicle used by the forces, and the Praga is the first one. Sorry,
21 could you repeat your question?
22 Q. My question is this: Based on what you've just told us, on the
23 interactive CD we saw yesterday during your testimony, at the bottom,
24 well, it says that it is a Praga, that the armoured vehicle is a Praga.
25 A. I don't think that I put any marks in this interactive
2 Q. I will not go back to it unless necessary but it is 502987, and it
3 says, "Praga" on that photograph. Do you remember that or do you think
4 that I'm stating this incorrectly?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The exhibit is P02987.
6 THE WITNESS: I would like to see this footage first.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I would kindly ask you for your assistance, then, so that we can
9 see that part together. The CD is P02987. Those photographs are titled,
10 "Praga 1" and "Praga 2." Could you please find that so that we have a
11 look at it together?
12 A. Yes. You're right. I marked this place as Praga 1 and Praga
13 jedan [phoen] but I referred to the location rather than the vehicles.
14 Q. Therefore, we can agree that this was Pervani village and that on
15 the interactive CD, you marked the two photographs as Praga 1 and Praga 2;
16 is that correct?
17 A. It's correct.
18 Q. I wanted to ask you this since it may be of importance when
19 discussing who could have had such vehicles in their possession. Is it
20 within your knowledge and please tell us if it is not, whether this indeed
21 is a Praga or maybe it is a Pat or an anti-aircraft gun?
22 A. I believe the first vehicle seen on the picture now, I don't know,
23 this is a Pat vehicle and the second one is a Praga.
24 Q. For the record, when you say that one vehicle is a Pat, do you
25 mean the one further away from us or closer to us?
1 A. Closer to us, the one closer to us.
2 Q. And the more distant vehicle, you believe is a Praga, is that your
4 A. I believe -- I believe so.
5 Q. Thank you. Let us have a look at P01562. While waiting for it,
6 Mr. Blaszczyk, I wanted to tell you that it is one of the shots of the
7 Kravica warehouse, an aerial shot, taken on the 13th of July, as marked on
photograph, the date is
9 you see the photograph in front of you?
10 A. Yes, I can see.
11 Q. The bus closer to the building and closer to the western entrance
12 of it, and that is something you referred to yesterday, can you confirm to
13 me that it is in the exact spot as you explained yesterday based on the
14 footage excerpt taken by Zoran Petrovic, Pirocanac? And please bear in
15 mind also what you had on the topic during the interactive presentation.
16 A. I think this is not correct. No, this bus is not located in
17 exactly the same place which was shown by me yesterday during the
19 Q. Is it fair to say - and I'm not setting a trap or anything, I'm
20 just trying to get an answer from you - is it fair to say that the bus on
21 the shot of Zoran Petrovic was closer to the western entrance as described
22 to you or, rather, closer to the right-hand side of the photograph and of
23 the warehouse, therefore?
24 A. Yes, it was closer to the western side of the white -- of the
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us approximately how many metres that is?
2 A. I think about 30 metres, 30 metres, 30, 40 metres.
3 Q. 30 to 40 metres. To the west, compared to the current position of
4 the bus?
5 A. Yes, you are right, about even less but for sure few metres, more
6 than 20.
7 Q. Can we also agree that on the footage referred to yesterday, and
8 analysed by you, made by Zoran Petrovic, there is no evidence or trace of
9 two buses being there at the time when the footage was taken or there was
10 only one bus there?
11 A. On this footage it's visible only one bus.
12 Q. Comparing this photograph with Zoran Petrovic's footage, can we
13 conclude that within an interval, both buses moved, the result of which
14 was that one was gone and the other bus or some other bus which arrived in
15 the meantime was moved some 20 metres to the west?
16 A. Is possible, is possible.
17 Q. Having in mind that you said yesterday that you were at the
18 location at least 50 times, perhaps you can use this photograph to tell me
19 something, if not we can use another one. In any case, will you agree
20 with me that between the entrance to the warehouse and the western gate,
21 the distance between the two can be covered in the following way: From
22 the road, from the direction of Konjevic Polje, one can turn to the right
23 on a side road, cover the distance of some 30 to 40 metres and then turn
24 right again to enter the warehouse compound?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, no objection but I'm just not -- what is
2 exactly referred to by entrance to the warehouse? It's not -- it may be
3 just me but it's not completely clear to me.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps it
6 would be more practical to look at another Prosecution Exhibit. Perhaps
7 we can put it on the ELMO. I believe it would be much clearer from it.
8 We can also provide another copy to the Prosecutor so that they can verify
9 that indeed it is their exhibit.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it in e-court or not?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is in
12 e-court. However, I only have the ERN number at this moment. I don't
13 have the exhibit number. That is why I asked for it to be done this way.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: If you tell us the ERN number, I think we can easily
15 trace it, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 THE WITNESS: 02683858 [sic], I believe.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I can't see anything as yet. I can see the picture
18 but I can't see the number. 02683858, he said, yeah.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated] You're right, you have to
21 turn to the right, you have to pass about 30 metres, turn right again, and
22 you can reach the eastern part of the warehouse.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a
24 good time for a break in order to reorganise our cross-examination. We
25 will provide exhibit number for this photograph after the break and I will
1 have a few questions left and then conclude with my cross-examination.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. And also consider
3 this during the break, because on page 24, line 23, you had referred --
4 and this is what prompted Mr. Nicholls to intervene -- you had referred to
5 the possible distance between the entrance to the warehouse and the
6 western gate. And now the witness is speaking of an eastern part of the
7 warehouse. So I think we need better bearings because that -- the way you
8 have described it and he has answered, I find it confusing. If necessary,
9 please, Mr. Blaszczyk, be prepared to mark the photo if we have located it
10 on e-court. You mark it for us so that we can understand better. Thank
12 We'll have a 25-minute break.
13 --- Recess taken at
14 --- On resuming at
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Blaszczyk, shall we
16 start with the point I raised before the break? We will mark exactly what
17 you intended when you put the question to the witness and what he meant
18 when he answered you so that we can see clear what distance he's talking
19 about, or you both are talking about.
20 Mr. Blaszczyk, I'll read out to you -- you said, you are right,
21 you have to turn to the right, pass 30 metres and turn right again and you
22 can reach the eastern part of the warehouse. And we are talking as
23 starting from the entrance, I take it, Mr. Stojanovic; is that correct?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In order to be
25 practical, we agreed that we would now take the pen and indicate the route
1 toward the -- that particular side of the warehouse, to make it clearer.
2 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, I believe that the way I put the question we
3 understood each other correctly. If we go, take the road in the direction
4 of Konjevic Polje and we turn toward the Kravica warehouse where the
5 vehicles we referred to were, can you please indicate the direction of
6 movement with arrows?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Thank you. So that would be the movement from the direction of
9 Bratunac toward the entrance into the Kravica warehouse; is that right?
10 A. Yes, that's right. From direction of Bratunac towards Konjevic
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Very well. I believe that now -- or let me ask you now to take
15 the blue pen, to mark the route you would take from the direction of
16 Konjevic Polje toward the Kravica warehouse.
17 A. I think this is the same route, we have to get the same road.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, okay, now, at the beginning of the first arrow
20 you drew, could you write, "K" for Konjevic and "P" for Polje, please?
21 No, the blue arrow, that is coming from which direction, from Konjevic
22 Polje or from Bratunac.
23 THE WITNESS: The blue arrow is coming from direction of Konjevic
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I asked to you write, Konjevic Polje,
1 here. Okay. And next to the other arrow, which is coming from Bratunac
2 direction, could you put a B, please?
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance. For the record let
7 us state that this is the P1563 exhibit that we are using and can I ask
8 Mr. Blaszczyk to place today's date, the 4th of December, at the bottom of
9 the page together with your signature?
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And we can put this photograph away now. Thank you very much.
12 Thank you. Let us look at another exhibit now, Prosecution Exhibit
13 P02103, page 107 of the book used during the presentation by Witness
14 Jean-Rene Ruez. There, we will also see a photograph of the Kravica
16 Mr. Blaszczyk, this is my question while we are waiting for the
17 picture. In view of the fact that you stated yesterday that you were
18 present in front of the Kravica warehouse on several occasions, to the
19 best of your recollection and based on what you were able to conclude by
20 analysing the footage of Mr. Pirocanac and by analysing this photograph
21 which was taken back in 1996, could you conclude that the
22 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road and the yard of the Kravica warehouse were
23 separated from each other by a wire fence running in front of the
24 warehouse in relation to the road?
25 A. Yeah. We can see the wire fence in front of the Kravica
2 Q. Does this fence stand there today?
3 A. I think, if today, I believe so, yes, I believe. It looks not the
4 same but I think it's a little bit higher.
5 Q. Thank you. I will have no further questions on this subject.
6 In several footage clips we analysed yesterday, you saw and you
7 indicated yourself that the date and the time appeared in the corners of
8 the screen when referring to the footage by Mr. Petrovic/Pirocanac. Do
9 you recall that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Based on your knowledge, could you state whether the time
12 indicated on the footage corresponded to the time at which in fact the
13 footage was made or were there possible discrepancies in terms of shorter
14 intervals of time, to your knowledge?
15 A. I cannot confirm and I cannot deny it. According to Mr. Petrovic,
16 he had no experience to operate with this video camera, he couldn't know
17 how to put the proper time on the video camera. But I believe this is the
18 proper time because -- at least the date.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we go back once more to the aerial photograph of
20 Potocari which is P1517? That's the photograph we used at the start of
21 cross-examination today. Can you take the pen again and place a circle on
22 the DutchBat base, as you will see it on the picture?
23 Before we look at this photograph, can we go back to P2478? That
24 was the picture we used first, 2478, P2478. That's the picture we used at
25 the start of examination today, in fact.
1 That's the photograph, Mr. Blaszczyk, we had at the start, where
2 you indicated the position of the white house and the blue factory. I'd
3 like you to mark the entire compound of the DutchBat base on that
4 photograph. That's precisely the photograph. Thank you.
5 Can I kindly ask you to mark the UN base compound?
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. This is what I want to ask you in relation to the
8 photograph: The facility or the building in front of the building you
9 called the white house, what is it? Or what was it in July of 1995? What
10 was its purpose?
11 A. I don't know. This is the former Feros company building, the
12 factory and building in front of the road leading from Bratunac to
14 Q. Was it at any point in time in July of 1995 used for the purposes
15 of the DutchBat?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. According to what you were able to see while analysing the
18 yesterday's footage, were you aware of the fact that there were members of
19 the DutchBat there and the refugees from Srebrenica, the population that
20 fled Srebrenica on the 12th and the 13th of July 1995?
21 A. Analysing my picture from the road book, it's difficult to say
22 that they were the members of UN DutchBat inside and refugees from
23 Srebrenica. On the pictures we see only the group of the people walking
24 on the right and on the left side of the road towards Bratunac.
25 Q. Would you agree with me that you do not rule out the possibility
1 that the population that fled Srebrenica was indeed present in that part
2 of the industrial zone of Potocari in those buildings?
3 A. I cannot exclude that -- such possibility but I don't remember on
4 the statement of the witness who was located in this place.
5 Q. Do you know at all that the group of fleeing people were
6 accommodated in that part of the Potocari industrial zone that was held by
7 the DutchBat?
8 A. I know that the group of the people were also accommodated in
9 DutchBat base in Potocari, and because there were no more place for the
10 people, from the refugee from Srebrenica, they were also located in bus
11 compound, Zinc company and Energoinvest company buildings.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Can you place today's date and your
13 signature on this photograph? And that would conclude my
15 A. [Marks]
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Ms. Fauveau, do you
18 have a cross-examination? You had asked for ten minutes.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. The Gvero Defence team have no
21 cross-examination. Mr. Sarapa, do you have any questions for the witness?
22 MR. SARAPA: [In English] No, we don't have any questions.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I don't think there is a re-examination,
24 Mr. Nicholls, is there?
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Extremely brief, I think, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
3 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, you were asked by Mr. Stojanovic about the
4 conclusion you made, you spoke about of the music coming from the car
5 during the portion of the video where we see fire directed into the hills.
6 Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes, I remember.
8 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether you asked during the interview of
9 Zoran Petrovic in 2006, do you remember if you asked him about that music?
10 A. For sure we asked him about this music but I don't remember right
12 Q. Okay. Do you remember what his answer was?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Would it help you remember if I showed you the statement?
15 A. Yes, please.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe this is highly improper.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: No, it's not. I'm refreshing his recollection.
18 The interview -- I'll let my friend finish. Well, if he's finished, it's
19 simply this, Your Honour: The basis of his conclusion was put into
20 question. This was a topic that was gone over with the witness in the
21 interview, in April -- February and April 2006 and the question was asked,
22 he remembers asking the question. I think I'm just trying to refresh his
23 recollection and I think it's completely a normal procedure to refresh on
24 this topic. It was over a year ago.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I may very briefly reply. This is the next
1 witness. We can ask him this.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: The issue is not --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, if I may, the issue is not to get in
6 this vital piece of information of where the music is coming from. It's
7 because there was a challenge to his -- to Mr. Blaszczyk's basis for
8 saying where the music was coming from and saying, well, you haven't been
9 able to tell us how you concluded that. It's --
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] We believe that this
12 issue could probably be dealt with much better by Mr. Petrovic instead of
13 the witness. However, since the witness has given us his opinion and he's
14 also been asked on cross-examination on how he formed this opinion, we
15 think you have a right to pursue the matter. So go ahead.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
17 Q. I'm referring to page 127 of the interview, lines 24 to 27,
18 Mr. Blaszczyk, I'll just read it out since it's not in e-court. In this
19 portion of the video you asked the question of Mr. Petrovic, is that music
20 coming from your car? And he answered: From the car because the car is
21 there, yeah, I was next to the car.
22 Does that help you remember how you came to your conclusion about
23 the music?
24 A. Yes. You read me back the transcript from this interview. I
25 asked this question and I got answer.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All right.
3 That concludes your testimony on this chapter. However, as you
4 may have heard earlier on, I think you were already present in the
5 courtroom, maybe, maybe not, we are going to proceed now with
6 Mr. Ostojic's continuation of his cross-examination on the subject matter
7 that you testified upon a couple of weeks ago.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I understand you are going to be called again
10 later on to testify again; is that correct, Mr. Nicholls? Or -- according
11 to the information that we have, you're going to summon him again to
12 testify on the duty officer's notebook.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: This is all subject, Your Honours, to our
14 discussions with the Defence and, hopefully, possibly working out some
15 kind of agreement or stipulation on these exhibits.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. So let's see how it
17 works out, Mr. Blaszczyk, and you may need to come back.
18 Mr. Ostojic.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]
Sir, we're now going to focus our discussion back to the
22 Corps collection that you seized, I think, in 2004, if you don't mind.
23 Sir, in our last discussion before an objection was raised by my learned
24 friend, I was simply inquiring of you as to who was personally supervising
25 the transfer of the Drina Corps collection to Mali Zvornik?
1 A. The order was given by Colonel General Andric at that time but
2 according to the witness Nebojsa Vukicevic, it was supervised -- the
3 transport was from Zvornik to Mali Zvornik, (redacted)
10 Q. Okay. Tell me this: Who -- and you found this information when,
11 sir, recently or did you find the information since you seized the
12 documents in 2004?
13 A. You mean the information about --
As to who is personally supervising the transfer of the
15 Corps collection to Mali Zvornik?
16 A. This information by OTP, we received a statement of
17 Nebojsa Vukicevic in, I believe, in between May and October 2004, before
18 the collection was seized in
19 Q. Did you also, sir, remember getting a letter from Republika Srpska
20 addressed to the ICTY in March of 2005 also identifying that the transfer
21 of the documents were under the direct command of Lieutenant-Colonel
22 Dragan Obrenovic?
23 A. It's possible that it was such letter but I would like to see this
24 letter to confirm.
25 Q. Sure. I'll be happy to give it to you.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Your Honour, it's a letter that was provided to us
the Office of the Prosecutor dated
3 hard copy for the witness signed by Mr. Jovan Spajic. With the Court's
4 permission if the usher can hand that to -- if I may, Your Honours, just
5 to speed it up, direct his attention to page 2 and I put a little asterisk
6 or an arrow in the significant portion for this question, but he's welcome
7 to look at the document in its entirety.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
9 MR. OSTOJIC:
10 Q. So let me ask you this, sir: Also not only personally supervising
11 the transfer of the Drina Corps documents, is it true that in fact Dragan
12 Obrenovic was the person who had the keys to the padlocks that contained
13 those documents in Mali Zvornik, correct?
14 A. Yes. Dragan Obrenovic had a key from this room.
15 Q. Well, you being the lead investigator did you come to learn that
16 anyone else had a key during that time period of approximately one year
17 that those documents were at Mali Zvornik other than Dragan Obrenovic?
18 A. Also, I should refer to the statement and testimony of protected
20 Q. Okay. And why don't we go quickly with the Court's permission
21 into private session so that I can just make sure we are talking about the
22 same witness, Your Honour, to get the name?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session, please.
24 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Sir, being the lead investigator on this team and involved
11 Srebrenica did you obtain from any other individual or source that other
12 than this individual that you said testified in private session, did
13 anyone rebut or contradict Mr. Vukicevic's statement that Dragan Obrenovic
14 is the only person who had the keys to the two padlocks to the storage?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Did you learn from any witnesses that you interviewed
17 whether or not any other individual maintained any such sets of keys?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Are you -- do you know, sir, as I'm sure you do, and isn't
20 it correct that it was Dragan Obrenovic who was responsible for the
21 storage of the Drina Corps collection while it was at Mali Zvornik?
22 A. Yeah, again we should refer to those two statements, statement of
23 Nebojsa Vukicevic and protected witness.
24 Q. Again I'll ask you then as the lead investigator in the Srebrenica
25 case, did you obtain information from any other witnesses or documents
1 which would contradict what Mr. Vukicevic said?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let me ask you this, if I may, sir, please?
4 A. If you are referring to Mali Zvornik location?
5 Q. Now, I am. Up until March of 1999, correct?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Are you familiar with the evidence that in March of 1999, the
8 warehouse or the storage area where the Drina Corps collection was held
9 was broken into?
10 A. Yeah, this is also mentioned in the Nebojsa Vukicevic's statement.
11 Q. Well, share with me this: As the lead investigator in the
12 Srebrenica case, what did you do to either confirm or to determine who
13 broke into the storage facility which contained these documents?
14 A. Nothing, me personally.
15 Q. What about anyone on your staff?
16 A. I have no information about that.
17 Q. What about anyone who preceded you in your position or in your
18 staff before you arrived at the ICTY?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down a little bit, Mr. Ostojic,
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And he told you that he hasn't got any
22 information about it which means neither before nor during nor after.
23 MR. OSTOJIC:
24 Q. Sir, do you know if an index was made of the Drina Corps
25 collection before the documents were moved to Mali Zvornik?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know where the location of the Drina Corps collection was
3 after they were removed from Mali Zvornik in March of 1999?
4 A. The collection ended up in Gornji Milanovac. We have only this
5 information. Whether it was transferred from Mali Zvornik to Milanovac
6 directly or were kept in any other places, we don't know. We cannot
7 exclude it.
8 Q. Okay. And do you know for what period of time that you would have
9 a gap in this chain of custody, if you will, for the Drina Corps
10 collection before you identified that they
were kept at
12 A. We have no information, in fact, where the collection was kept
13 between March, at least March 1999 and December 2004.
14 Q. Now it's my understanding, sir, that Dragan Obrenovic tendered to
15 the Prosecution documents on two separate occasions in 2003, correct?
16 A. Yes. This is correct.
17 Q. Were any of the documents that he provided to the Office of the
18 Prosecution part of the Drina Corps collection?
19 A. I don't remember right now but I think that most of these
20 documents were part of the Drina Corps collection, according to the
21 description of the witness.
22 Q. Now, let me ask you this question, sir: With respect to --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ostojic. Mr. Nicholls and
24 Mr. McCloskey, if my memory is not failing me, let's go into private
25 session, please.
1 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Ostojic, please proceed with your
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Sir, just so we have a clear record, Mr. Obrenovic tendered
25 documents to the Prosecution both in June of 2003 and September 2003,
2 A. Yes, this is correct.
3 Q. And it's your testimony that the documents that he provided to the
4 OTP were in part that from the Drina Corps collection as we've come to
5 identify them, correct?
6 A. Yes, this is correct.
7 Q. I would like to ask you this question, sir. If could you tell me
8 who is responsible to analyse the Drina Corps collection for purposes of
9 compliance with Rule 68?
10 A. Everybody in team.
11 Q. Does that include yourself, obviously, sir?
12 A. Include myself as well.
13 Q. Can you tell me what your understanding is of Rule 68?
14 A. It's my understanding is to find all information or the facts,
15 mitigating facts and all information we can say that the accused can be
17 Q. What about with exculpatory facts, sir, or do you just look at
18 mitigating facts?
19 A. And also all the facts we can say that Prosecution evidence are
20 not reliable.
21 Q. Do you create an index with the information that you provide to
22 the Prosecutor specifically that you undertook in connection with
23 analysing the Drina Corps collection to be in compliance with Rule 68?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. How do you communicate that to the Prosecutor?
1 A. We inform our lawyers from our team.
2 Q. And that's what I assume but do you do it orally or do you do it
3 in writing, by memo form, e-mail?
4 A. Mostly by e-mail or just giving the copy of the documents to them
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Blaszczyk, please slow down a
7 little bit. Short pause between question and answer so that the
8 interpreters' life doesn't become more difficult than it already is.
9 THE WITNESS: I apologise, Your Honour.
10 MR. OSTOJIC:
11 Q. Sir, am I correct that this same type of analysis and
12 responsibility that you undertook with the Drina Corps collection you and
13 everyone at the OTP would undertake that obligation for all other
14 collections and documents, correct?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. Now, do you still maintain records of your analysis with respect
17 to the Drina Corps collection and that which may be exculpatory or, as you
18 say, mitigating pursuant to Rule 68?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did do you a search recently to determine if you maintained those
22 A. No.
23 Q. As you sit here, sir, did you undertake this specific analysis
24 with respect to the Drina Corps collection?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Well, why not, if you're the lead investigator in the Srebrenica
3 A. I was busy with another task.
4 Q. Now, earlier you testified that everyone was involved in this
5 responsibility and analysis of Rule 68 in connection with the Drina Corps
6 collection. Can you identify for me which investigators under your
7 command, sir, were responsible to do that?
8 A. Everybody is obligate to identify all documents in regards to Rule
9 68, and each investigators which can see such document should inform our
10 lawyers about it.
11 Q. Well, and I heard that now for the second time and thank you for
12 that, but everybody includes you and yet you didn't do it, correct?
13 A. I don't remember [indiscernible] document which I identified as
14 Rule 68.
15 Q. Let me ask about, if I may, your obligations as a professional
16 investigator and a member of the Office of the Prosecution. Do you agree
17 with me that you have a professional duty when a witness misstates
18 something and you have evidence that he's wrong on his recollection, that
19 you should correct him on his recollection?
20 A. I should analyse this information, yes.
21 Q. Do you also agree with me that it's not only a professional
22 obligation but it's also an ethical obligation?
23 A. Yes, of course.
24 Q. And not only professional and ethical but it's a legal obligation,
25 is it not, sir?
1 A. Yeah, to analyse the possible Rule 68, yeah, this is legal
3 Q. Well, you're switching -- my question wasn't limited just to Rule
4 68, sir, I'm asking you specifically given than you've informed us that
5 you've interviewed witnesses (redacted), is it your
6 professional, ethical and legal obligation, if the witness makes a
7 statement --
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
11 Q. If I could just restate the question, Your Honour, because I'm not
12 sure if the witness, with all due respect, fully understood. Sir I'm
13 moving away from Rule 68 and the obligations that we discussed previously.
14 I'm asking you do you have a professional, ethical and legal obligation
15 when you interview a witness and if you know that the witness has
16 misspoken or did not recall properly, to inform the witness that in fact
17 he's incorrect by showing him documentation or other testimony to refresh
18 his recollection on that?
19 A. If you are referring to this particular witness we spoken about, I
20 think he was -- he was confronted with the statement which stated totally
21 different things when he stated.
22 Q. I'm, sir, talking generically here for the moment. I'm saying
23 with any witness. Isn't it true that you have a professional, ethical and
24 legal obligation if a witness, for example, says, that I was in Potocari
25 on this date but you have evidence that he was, for example, in Pale on
1 that given date and at that given time, is it not your professional,
2 ethical and legal obligation to share with him that documentation so that
3 he could refresh his recollection?
4 A. This is my way. I would say to the witness that I have another
5 information but I'm not going to disclose the -- it's not my habit to
6 disclose that to the witness the source of this information.
7 Q. And is that also the policy of the investigators who work under
8 you, sir?
9 A. It depends of the -- of the way how they conducting the interview
10 or they conducting the investigation.
11 Q. And --
12 A. But -- but, as you know, the -- we investigators are coming from
13 different countries and they have different experience and different way
14 to do their investigation.
15 Q. And I'm more interested in how you do your investigation, sir, in
16 particular if you failed to at least tell the witness that you have
17 information that would either refresh his recollection or contradict that
18 which he's sharing with you, what would that constitute in your mind, if
19 not a breach of your professional, ethical and legal duties?
20 A. I can assure you that I have clear conscience.
21 Q. And, sir, I'm not testing your conscience here; I'm asking you if
22 there was a breach of that policy that you enunciated here to us that you
23 wouldn't show him the document but that, in fact, you would share with him
24 the information would that be --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, stop. Please proceed to your next
1 question. We've had enough of this. I think he's already excluded the
2 possibility that you're putting to him.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll put this down as a marker, Judge. We had a
4 clear deal with Mr. Meek that the cross-examination would not exceed 30
5 minutes. That was the agreement why we agreed to defer this, and I'm not
6 making a huge fuss about it but now we are well over 30 minutes. This
7 exactly what we wanted to avoid was a long, burbling fishing expedition
8 cross being deferred until Mr. Ostojic got back. That's why we agreed to
9 the half hour.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: In my estimate, you haven't been 30 minutes as yet
12 but --
13 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- anyways, I'm going to check and you continue in
15 the meantime.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And I'll try not to --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed to your next question.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll try not to burble or garble anything for the
19 Prosecution but I'd like to ask this witness concretely.
20 Q. Did you, sir, ever interview Mr. Ljubisa Beara, my client's
22 A. Yes, I met him.
23 Q. Did you interview him or just meet him?
24 A. I think I met him. I prepare the information report but because
25 at that time, as far I remember, there was no time and even was very
1 difficult to interview him because I met him at his house, in -- at his
home in Han Pijesak. And he was
called for interview again to
3 as far as I remember.
4 Q. Okay. And based on your recollection, sir, do you remember that
5 you did not at any time share with Mr. -- or Mr. Beara's driver any
6 documents like a vehicle log?
7 A. During our meeting?
8 Q. Correct.
9 A. During our meeting in Han Pijesak?
10 Q. Yes, sir.
11 A. I don't remember showing him any documents at that stage, but I
12 informed him that we call him for the
official interview in
Well, do you remember, sir, in
But I am pretty sure that interview in
16 my colleague but I cannot refer right now to the transcript of this
17 interview but I'm pretty sure that I wasn't present during this interview.
18 Q. Well, other than failing to show that driver vehicle logs from the
19 Main Staff, do you have a recollection whether or not you showed him any
20 statements for other witnesses which would help us get to the truth as to
21 where Milos Tomovic and Mr. Beara were on certain given points? Do you
22 remember sharing with him any information from other witnesses, sir?
23 A. I don't -- this meeting with Mr. Tomovic, as far as I could
24 remember his name, lasted not too long and as I told you there were not
25 circumstances to provide, to conduct any interview with this witness, and
1 I don't believe that I share any information with this witness.
2 Q. Well, you didn't, but why was it short, sir, and why were you not
3 prepared? Did it just be a happenstance that you ran into him or did you
4 call him in advance and schedule a meeting with him days, if not weeks,
5 prior to you coming to his home to interview him?
6 A. The answer is very simple, we didn't know. As far as I remember,
7 we didn't know where the witness lives and where he's located. I just
took the chance that I was driving from
9 to Zvornik or Bratunac. I don't remember right now where exactly but I
10 stopped in Han Pijesak and I phoned this witness.
11 Q. Well, at any time since those two interviews in Han Pijesak, the
12 first one, and
13 Mr. Beara's driver?
14 A. Not personally. It's possible that I called him but I don't
15 remember right now. I called him to show up for this interview in
How about after the interview in
18 getting at, sir?
No. After the interview in
21 Q. Okay. And do you think, sir, by failing to refresh a witness's
22 recollection such as Mr. Tomovic with either the vehicle log documents or
23 other documents or statements from other witnesses, that it would be a
24 breach or a violation of your professional, ethical and legal duties as
25 the lead investigator in the Srebrenica case?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Ostojic, there was the first
2 occasion when the witness confirmed that he met with this person at his
3 residence in Han Pijesak. And if I have understood the witness correctly,
4 there was no proper interview then. It was just a first meeting, mostly
5 intended to confirm that he had been found and that there will be a second
6 interview later on, date of which will be communicated to him. Second
instance was the
8 well, he doesn't even recollect being present. So he cannot confirm or
9 deny any of the suggestions that you are putting. So the conclusion,
10 according to me, is in regards to the first instance, you cannot allege a
11 failure to show the gentleman logbook, notebook or whatever it is. As
12 regards the second instance, you also cannot suggest failure to the
13 witness because he's not in a position to answer you.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I see the Court's point and thank you. But, Your
15 Honour, I would like to just clarify that first meeting if I will. Thank
16 you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You can clarify the first meeting without suggesting
18 any undue -- because he's told you that there was no proper -- no proper
19 interview then.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
21 Q. Is that correct, sir --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. Mr. Nicholls?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd also object, Your Honour, that my friend is
24 misstating the facts as he's putting it to the witness. I think he knows
25 that there is no legal, ethical and professional obligation to show one
1 witness another witness's statement which he knows that and it's --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: That's another matter. That's another matter and I
3 wouldn't ask the witness to answer that because he is not -- he is an
4 investigator and not a lawyer. Unless you are a lawyer and we don't know
6 MR. OSTOJIC: I think we have the witness's testimony on what he
7 feels his personal, professional obligations as well as ethical
8 obligations, I just find it hard to believe that the Prosecutor is taking
9 that view. But in any event, Your Honour, I have a couple more questions.
10 Q. Sir, is it true what our honourable Mr. President said that that
11 first meeting was just an introductory meeting and that you didn't ask any
12 questions but just wanted to confirm where the driver of Mr. Beara was?
13 A. I told him what will be the -- what will be the issue for the
14 proper interview.
15 Q. You mentioned that you prepared an information report, did you
16 not, based on that contact that you had with Mr. Beara's driver?
17 A. I should look up this information report. I don't remember this
18 information report right now.
19 Q. Well, to the best of your recollection, sir, is it your testimony
20 here under oath that you did not ask any questions of Mr. Tomovic in
21 connection with the events in July of 1995 involving Srebrenica but merely
22 obtained general information as to his telephone number, address, where
23 will he be living in the next few days until you could obtain contact from
24 him, is that accurate?
25 A. It's possible that I asked him a few questions about the events in
1 1995, but as I told you, that was not circumstances to conduct an
2 interview. It was at his accommodation in the presence of his family. I
3 didn't want to discuss these events with him in the front of his family.
4 Q. Just so that I understand because I did read the information
5 report, sir, but based on your recollection when you say a few questions,
6 how many did do you think you asked him?
7 A. I don't know, don't ask me right now. I would prefer to look at
8 my notes and information report.
9 Q. That's all I have, Mr. President. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. Is there re-examination,
11 Mr. Nicholls? I hope not.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And thank you, Mr. Ostojic for keeping within the
16 30-minute limit.
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. First, very briefly, Mr. Blaszczyk, you were asked about
19 investigators under your command in this team. Do you command
20 investigators in the OTP?
21 A. No. I am not. As I told you, maybe I didn't express properly but
22 I am the most experienced investigator in this team, I mean Srebrenica
23 team. This is why I am so-called leading investigator but I am not
24 responsible, I am not supervisor of other investigators.
25 Q. Okay. Could we put 2967 up in e-court, please? While that's
1 coming up that's the statement of Nebojsa Vukicevic which has been asked
2 about. And back when he was first cross-examining you, Mr. Ostojic stated
3 that the collection according to this statement was in Zvornik for one
4 year from April 1998 through March of 1999. And I can make this quick
5 because I think my friend might agree with me that it doesn't say anything
6 like that in this statement and we can move on.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: We did discuss it, Your Honour, and we clarified it
8 after he objected on the 22nd of November.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. Now, this statement, to continue, it was read out to you, parts of
11 it, about -- if we can scroll down, the keys being given to
12 Dragan Obrenovic, once the -- once the
documents were transferred to
13 Zvornik. What kind of institution were they held in in Mali Zvornik, what
14 sort of place was it?
It was the premises of Defence department of
16 premises of
17 Q. Okay. And from your reading of the statement, does the statement
18 say or imply that Mr. Obrenovic, as Mr. Ostojic put it to you, had the
19 sole access and was the only person who could get the documents in a
20 military facility in
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. I want to go now and show you P192. That's a document
23 Ms. Fauveau asked you about at T 18114 to 16 and let me just check if we
24 still have the original here. I'll wait for that to come up on e-court.
25 While we are waiting, I'll remind you that you referred to, I think, you
called it a binder of documents that you saw in
2 have the assistance of the usher, please? I'm going to hand you some
3 original documents. Please show it to my friend, first, Mr. Ostojic, or
4 Ms. Fauveau.
5 Now, can you -- first of all, tell me if you recognise what I've
6 just handed to you, that packet of paper with a cardboard cover?
7 A. Yes, I recognise this small binder. At that time when I saw this
8 binder, it was clipped together.
9 Q. I was going to ask you about that. What do you mean by clipped
10 together? I see that there are holes punched in the cardboard cover and
11 also in the pages.
12 A. These documents were clipped together and this is the first page,
13 this is cover page of this small binder.
14 Q. Now, could you turn to what should be the last page in there,
15 04258580? Do you recognise that document?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Okay. When did you first see that document?
18 A. I am very sure, 100 per cent sure, that I saw this document first
19 time in
20 Q. And I'll just ask this question although it's quite clear. When
saw this document in
This document arrived to
23 documents from so-called
25 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm done with that.
1 And just can you remind us - if you can read it - what is written
2 on the cardboard cover of that binder?
3 A. It's mean telegrams and the number of the telegrams.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you.
5 A. And they quote the name of Atlanti Dabat [phoen]. That's it.
6 Q. All right. Now, you were asked some questions by my friend
7 Mr. Ostojic and by Ms. Fauveau about who had access, in fact that was a
8 huge part of your cross, who had access to the Drina Corps collection
9 while it was in Mali Zvornik. And what I'd like to do now is show you
10 some documents and I spoke to my friends about this which we received from
11 the Krstic Defence. And the first is 2979. This is a receipt from 19
12 February 2000 to the Office of the Prosecutor, re receipt for disclosure
13 of materials Prosecutor versus General Radislav Krstic and it's signed by
14 senior trial attorney Mark Harmon. For the moment, could I just ask you
15 to take a look at numbers 4, 20 and 23, these documents we received in
16 February 2000?
17 A. Could you scroll down, this?
18 Q. We'll have to go to the next page. Now I'd like to go to an
19 exhibit which is in evidence, P00927. And to save time if we look at
20 this, we'll see that it's a Main Staff VRS document number 03/4-1670, 17
22 from the Krstic Defence. We'll need to look at the Serbian originals.
23 And I'll ask you to take a look when you can as well at the stamp and
24 small amount of handwriting on the document, at the bottom. Now, if
25 possible, if we can keep that up on the screen, I'd like to put on 2982,
1 the Serbian original, next to it. While waiting for it to come up, we'll
that that is also Main Staff RS document 03/4-1670 of
3 And could we go up to the top, please, sorry, of the -- of 2982?
4 We see that ERN number 04257985, is that a -- well, what
5 collection does that come from?
6 A. According to the ERN number, I see that these documents comes from
7 Drina Corps collection.
8 Q. And we see, can you just look at the numbers handwritten on the
9 top right-hand corner of both documents, the one we received from the
10 Defence and the one we received from the Drina Corps collection and tell
11 me if they look similar?
12 A. Yeah, the same number.
13 Q. All right. And if we look down at the stamp and the
14 handwriting --
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I believe we have the originals of
16 each of these here in case anybody wants to look at it. Well, we have the
17 original from the Drina Corps collection, I should say.
18 Q. If you look at those two stamps, and the handwriting, written in
19 the stamps, the date, do they appear -- does one -- is the one on the left
20 0927, appear to be a photocopy of the original 2982?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'd like to now put up, please, 2981 and if possible next to it
23 2982. This is a Drina Corps command document number 04/156-9 from 10 July
24 1995, and this is number 23 on the list of documents disclosed in Krstic.
25 I'll just wait for those two to come up, please, next to each other.
1 I think we've got the wrong one on the right. It should be -- the
2 ERN should be 04367235. Yeah, 2980. Maybe I misspoke. That was the one
3 I wanted on the right, sorry.
4 And here, if we can scroll down towards the bottom of both
5 documents, and look at the stamp and the handwriting?
6 A. It seems that one of these documents is original and other one is
7 a copy of this document.
8 Q. Now can we go up to the top, please? Again, 2980 is the document
9 on the right, with the ERN number 04367235. What collection does that ERN
10 number signify that this document came from?
11 A. I believe this is Drina Corps collection.
12 Q. The last two, it's same exercise, if we could have up 2745 on the
13 left and 2983 on the right. This is another command of the Drina Corps
14 document 03/156-11,
15 disclosure receipt. And when you've looked at those if we could scroll
16 down again to the stamps and the handwriting, compare these two, please.
17 And could we scroll down to the bottom, please, so that we can see the
18 stamp and the signatures?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we do the same with -- okay. All right.
20 THE WITNESS: It seems the same documents, one of them is original
21 and another one is copy.
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. And again, I'm sorry, if we go up -- well, on the right we have
24 the ERN number 04312743.
25 A. This is a range of Drina Corps collection.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, is it 2743? What we are -- maybe that is the
2 first page.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: 43 to 44, you're correct, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. Is that your answer, the same?
7 A. Yes, yes, this is a range of Drina Corps collection.
8 Q. Now, again, we received these documents in February 2000, the
9 copies on the left we've been looking at. Did the OTP know where these
10 Drina Corps documents were at that time or have access to them?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Thank you. I think that's all I have, Your Honour. I'll just say
13 that my understanding is that these documents received from the Krstic
14 Defence were the result of -- and I can't speak to an official request
15 make to the Republika Srpska for these documents.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
17 Mr. Blaszczyk, we don't have any further questions for you, at
18 least for today, so you're free to go.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I wish to thank you for having taken the trouble to
21 come again and I hope we will not disturb you any further.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just wondering whether we now have two separate
25 series of documents that you wish to tender, which I suppose is the case.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: That's correct. Miss Stewart has combined them on
2 one list but has indicated which testimony they are pertinent to and which
3 testimony they came in with.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then we can do that now. Because if you
5 are not prepared for that, I was going to suggest to have the break
6 straight away during which you would sort it out.
7 Where is the list?
8 Have the Defence been provided with a copy? Not yet. So I think
9 it would be appropriate to have the break now so that each Defence team
10 has got time to go through the list, because otherwise, I can't expect
11 anyone to be in a position to decide whether to object or not to object.
12 We'll have the 25-minute break now. Do you want to explain
13 anything from this -- no, I think it's self explanatory.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Just one, Your Honour, perhaps is not completely
15 self-evident. 2985 is the English transcript of the -- what's been
16 referred to as the raw material shot by Zoran Petrovic that we watched in
17 court with the road book testimony. That transcript is also the one which
18 we saw synced to the video, video V0006747. If you look at the
19 transcript, the cover sheet explains that the two versions of that video
20 were used to make the transcript because some portions were clear, some
21 unintelligibles could be heard on the BBC copy that could not be heard on
22 the copy we received from Mr. Petrovic and vice versa. And so where
23 language comes from the BBC as opposed to the raw material we copied from
24 Mr. Petrovic during our interview that is indicated in the transcript so
25 that one can see which video is used for that particular portion of speech
1 and translation.
2 And in addition, there is a key to the abbreviations used for
3 unidentified male, unidentified female, and the main speakers. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. We'll have a 25-minute
5 break now and then we'll process these documents, as well as the Defence
7 --- Recess taken at
8 --- On resuming at
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Now, you've had time to go through the
10 Prosecution list of proposed documents to be tendered in relation to the
11 two matters that the witness testified upon on different occasions, one
12 being the Drina Corps collection and you have nine documents there on
13 direct, and seven on redirect, and then the road book, seven and five, 12.
14 Any objections, Mr. Zivanovic?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I would object to the
16 tendering of documents P20805 [sic] through 2813 through this witness,
17 because these nine documents, in providing of these documents, this
18 witness did not take part, either from Yugoslav or Republika Srpska
19 authorities. His only role in -- is in the second repacking of these
20 documents in
21 receiving of these documents in
22 the documents were unpacked and photos were taken.
23 Finally, he did not make inventory of these documents.
24 On the other hand, not a single person participating in the
25 process testified before this Trial Chamber. Some of them provided
1 witness statements, but not called to testify under oath and
2 cross-examined by the Defence.
3 Consequently, due to gap in providing and due to gap in our
4 knowledge about places where these Drina Corps documents were for five
5 years from 1999 to 2004, we cannot establish what documents were taken,
6 replaced or added to the Drina Corps archives and because of that, I
7 object to tendering of these documents through this witness. Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Mr. Ostojic?
9 MR. OSTOJIC: We'll join in that objection, Your Honour, as well.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Just with respect to the second portion of the
12 documents, and I'm not sure if you covered it and I apologise, if he had,
13 the Petrovic video, we would make the same or similar objections.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honours. I believe that Mr. Blaszczyk
18 laid a perfectly adequate foundation for all these documents to be
19 admitted. He had personal knowledge of all these documents, he may not
20 have been the person who actually received some of these but he laid the
21 foundation through his work in the OTP, through his knowledge of the way
22 that the documents were received, the correspondence, the official reports
23 from the Republika Srpska, and his actions in the chain of custody once
24 the documents came to
25 involved in the way these documents came. The focus of my direct
1 examination obviously was the chain of custody once the OTP became aware
2 of these Drina Corps documents and once the OTP took possession of them in
4 argument about who had access to these documents earlier has nothing to do
5 with the admission of these exhibits and I think that Mr. Blaszczyk has
6 demonstrated to the Court that these are authentic documents, that they
7 are probative and they're reliable and therefore they should be admitted.
8 And most of my friends' arguments I think go to the weight, not to
9 admission, because the admissibility has been established.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. For the purpose of admissibility
11 we are talking of relevance and probative value, and nothing else. Of
12 course, some areas like you mentioned of authenticity are by-products of
13 probative value and also of relevance sometimes.
14 All right. I need to confer with my colleagues.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Setting apart some of your submissions,
17 Mr. Zivanovic, with which we don't need to deal with because there is a
18 standard set for admissibility purposes at this stage, our position is
19 that we unanimously come to the conclusion that these documents on a prima
20 facie basis meet those standards and they are therefore being admitted.
21 Then obviously at the end of the exercise we will give them all the
22 attention that they deserve.
23 All right. We also have some Defence documents from the Miletic
24 Defence team. These have been circulated, three documents, 5D434, 5D432,
25 and 5D533. Any objections from your part?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any objections from the other
3 Defence teams? So they are so admitted.
4 Then I do have another list of -- from the Borovcanin team but I
5 think that belongs to the second issue. All right.
6 So yes, Mr. Josse?
7 MR. JOSSE: Could I mention for completeness the Trial Chamber
8 very kindly gave me a few days to consider the documents that were put to
9 General Nicolai in re-examination, particularly bearing in mind I'm told
10 they are going to be dealt with with a witness who is coming next week, I
11 don't think he's protected but I won't give his name, I've got no
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. So Madam Registrar, you know
14 what we are talking about and you'll deal with that. Thank you,
15 Mr. Josse.
16 We now -- is there any other Defence team that wishes to tender
17 documents in relation to the first part of Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony,
18 namely that relating to the Drina Corps collection and the recovery
19 thereof? None.
20 So we move to the second matter that the witness testified upon,
21 namely the so-called road book. As I said I think there are 12 documents
22 that the Prosecution seeks to tender. Are there any objections? I heard
23 before Mr. Ostojic challenging. Yes, Mr. Ostojic?
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. Just given the
25 witness's testimony in connection with the road book evidence, in fact, I
1 think it's clear so I won't recite it, I think it would be inappropriate
2 to introduce this evidence through this witness given that he just
3 verified some pictures and wasn't the person actually who conducted and
4 prepared the documentation in connection with that and the video
5 presentation that he presented.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic. Mr. Nicholls?
7 MR. NICHOLLS: That's not a ground for objection, I don't believe.
8 If I understand the objection, it's just that he physically didn't select
9 all the exhibits, the photos and put them together. Mr. Blaszczyk made it
10 very clear that he worked with a person with more technical expertise to
11 create the CD presentation, and also the printing of the book. We don't
12 need to call the person who hit all the computer keys when Mr. Blaszczyk
13 was there explaining where to put various photos. We don't need to call
14 the person who worked on putting the book together and binding it. He
15 made clear that his knowledge of these -- of these photos, exhibits and
16 documents and again as Your Honours rightly said, the issue is whether
17 it's probative and relevant when we seek to introduce evidence and I think
18 we've gone beyond a prima facie showing of relevance for all the documents
19 we seek to tender relating to the road book testimony.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I want to make sure that you're both on the
21 same wavelength and that we equally are fine-tuned with you. Which of
22 these 12 documents in particular were you objecting to, Mr. Ostojic?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: To all of them, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All of them, okay. All right. Any further
25 objections from other Defence teams? None. I need to consult with my
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Our position is exactly the same as before,
4 Mr. Ostojic. We appreciate, of course, your submission and that will be
5 taken into consideration at the right moment. But the standards set by
6 the rules and by the jurisprudence of this Tribunal for the admission of
7 documents at this stage in our consideration is met and therefore these
8 documents are hereby being admitted.
9 Then there is a Borovcanin Defence team list of three documents,
10 they are all 4DIC and that's 194, 195 and 196. These are colour
11 photographs, photographs that have been marked by the witness. I take it
12 there are no objections on your part?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour, there are not.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't imagine there are objections from any
15 other Defence team. None. So these three documents are so admitted.
16 Is there anyone else who wishes to tender any other documents from
17 the Defence teams in relation to the second part of Mr. Blaszczyk's
18 testimony? None.
19 So that closes the Blaszczyk testimony for the time being.
20 Are you ready with the next witness, Mr. Nicholls?
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, we are ready to proceed, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's call him. We have three-quarters of
23 an hour.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrovic, please put your ear-phones on because
1 I need to address you.
2 First of all, I hope you understand that the reason why you have
3 been waiting is because we had a previous witness that took a little bit
4 longer than we expected, and so, please accept the Trial Chamber's
5 explanation and apologies. You're here to give evidence and our rules
6 require that before you do so, you make a solemn declaration that you will
7 be speaking the truth. The text is being handed to you. Read it out and
8 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.
12 WITNESS: ZORAN PETROVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So help me God.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You still have to put the ear-phones otherwise we
16 will have problems.
17 THE WITNESS: I understand you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason, Mr. Petrovic, I would imagine if I speak
19 loud enough and if others speak loud enough, you will be able to hear but
20 as we go along, there are comments made by the interpreters, if there are
21 words that they haven't understood, words that they need to you repeat,
22 and you won't be able to follow unless you have the ear-phones on. I
23 mean, I know they are uncomfortable but believe me we have to stay here
24 every day with -- for over three and a half hours with them so I can
25 understand that they are uncomfortable. But be patient with us and we try
1 to get over and done with this testimony as soon as we can.
2 Just let me explain a few more things.
3 I heard you speak in French.
4 THE WITNESS: Partly.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll be speaking in English, for example, and others
6 may be speaking in Serbo-Croat or in French. I would like to know first
7 and foremost when it comes to interpretation, which language you wish to
8 receive. We can provide you with English, French or your own languages,
9 which is Serbo-Croat. One moment.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it I am informed that you have the floor
12 channel which means that you will be able to follow the proceedings in
13 whichever language they are being conducted, say if I'm speaking in
14 English you would be receiving me in English now. I want to make sure
15 that you understand it.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And French obviously you understand otherwise you
18 wouldn't be speaking it and your own language I have no doubt you
19 understand. So do you wish, I see that you wish to address the Trial
20 Chamber before you start giving evidence.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First and foremost, I decided to
22 speak French for a very personal reason, but I shall speak Serbian
23 afterwards. This had been agreed with Mrs. Carla Del Ponte's office as
24 well as Defence lawyers. In order not to complicate matters, I wish to
25 address myself to you directly before we start, just for a few minutes
1 because these are to me, this is vital to me.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's hear what you have to say.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This has to do with a letter I
4 addressed to you. I explained to you why I could not be here before
5 today. There are two things, I can clarify, and I can only clarify this
6 with your assistance so I would like you to help me in this.
7 Because of the report I prepared, that is the reason why I am here
today. I have suffered for years
important to you here but I do not live in
10 Paris and I don't live in
11 I told in the letter that a former employee of the ICTY, Mr. Ruez, caused
12 me a lot of problems in my country. But he never actually met me, which
13 is even more serious, I believe. When he conducted his research work, he
14 said or he concluded or he said he could not infer whether I was a
15 journalist or a policeman. Given the regime we were living under, this, I
16 believe, is a greatest offence you can commit. This has been recorded in
17 the official documents of this Tribunal, I think as part of the Krstic
18 case, and will remain there forever.
19 Another point I would like to clarify with Mr. McCloskey today,
20 and I hope we will be able to settle this issue, because it is very
21 similar to what Mr. Ruez has said. In other words, I was a so-called
22 journalist, as you say in English, and what was said in 2006, before this
23 Tribunal, was not, Mr. McCloskey, not very
accurate. And in
24 has a feeling that I had been sent by
25 means the
1 you have been using for a number of years. I am not very spoilt. I've
2 done a lot of things in my life. But this is something which I cannot
3 accept, and I cannot forgive anyone if nobody apologises, if nobody tells
4 me outright that this is wrong.
5 I have been asked to be honest, I have been given a letter,
6 Mr. McCloskey did, and I think this issue was cleared up, and I'm grateful
7 to him for that. But there is the office of Mrs. Carla Del Ponte and I
8 cannot accept that even though I am not such a resourceful person, I
9 cannot live with that so I would like you to settle this issue very
10 quickly. It's not very complicated to do. Mrs. Carla Del Ponte's office
11 can also say something. But if somebody has not understood me, I
12 recommend you to read Avishai Margalit, the Israeli philosopher's book,
13 entitled, "The decent society." That is the driving force behind my
14 speech today.
15 The last thing I wanted to say but which is very important if you
16 set it against the backdrop of
17 the lawyers and various departments of this Tribunal avoided me. My
18 pictures have been used extensively. There were a lot of so-called
19 experts and I'm the greatest so this was quite clear in General Krstic's
20 trial and nobody called me before 2002. Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin who asked
21 me to come and testify to talk about what I saw whilst I was shooting this
22 video, and I accepted this on moral grounds. I know that the witnesses
23 here are neither in favour of one or other party so to speak but over
24 there, it is very important for me to be able to say that the reason why I
25 was asked to come -- I was asked to come, and it was Mr. Borovcanin asked
to come and I want everybody to know this in
2 understand what I'm saying. It doesn't matter, I was without a witness to
3 begin with and I want my people to help me and I want my people to know
4 about this. Thank you very much, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Petrovic. Let me explain
6 just a couple of things before we proceed. It's true that you sent a
7 letter addressed to us directly following the issue of the subpoena.
8 I conceded at the time that you were unaware, as most people are,
9 that it's not regular procedure, not a regular practice to write directly
10 to the Chamber, to the Judges, but there is a special procedure that one
11 needs to follow, failing which basically it is the duty of the Judges to
12 not only to ignore that letter but to send it over to the registrar who
13 would then communicate with you and explain to you that you cannot do
14 this, this is wrong, et cetera, et cetera. We didn't even do that because
15 reading through the letter, we understood that this was not a frivolous
16 letter that you were writing but you were justifying, trying to justify
17 that your failure to attend previously was not motivated by any contempt
18 towards the Tribunal but because of personal reasons that you had and
19 which you wanted to make known to the Trial Chamber.
20 So I think that explains to you why you did not get a response
21 from the Trial Chamber. The Trial Chamber is not expected to act except
22 in one way and we didn't even act that way, not to embarrass you and not
23 to create problems for you.
24 And I hope you understand now what happened.
25 The other thing is the complaint you have against Mr. Ruez. I
1 think the only person who can provide or create a remedy is you yourself
2 now, that have been given this golden opportunity to have your day in
3 court where you can explain why you disagree completely with what was
4 stated about you by Mr. Ruez in the past. And you will have every
5 opportunity to do that, even if no direct questions are put to you on the
7 The third thing, and which you complained about the way you were
8 described in this trial by Mr. McCloskey, I think, has been cleared by
9 Mr. McCloskey in a most dignified manner. And I do wish to express our
10 appreciation for the way you did this, Mr. McCloskey, because it was the
11 right and fit thing to do in the circumstances. Asking us, however, to
12 intervene with Mrs. Del Ponte's office or with her personally to deal with
13 the rest, which is more or less related to what was stated by
14 Mr. McCloskey is beyond what we can do. And I would suggest to you, you
15 seem to be a very reasonable and sensible person, with whom we can have a
16 healthy exchange while your testimony progresses, I think I would suggest
17 to you that you consider that when Mr. McCloskey expressed his regrets and
18 provided you with an explanation, that was not only his own personal
19 position that he was taking. He doesn't come into this courtroom and make
20 a representation on his own behalf. He represents Mrs. Del Ponte, and her
21 office, that is the Prosecutor of this Tribunal. So if there was an
22 apology, I would suggest that you also take it as an apology from the
23 office of the Prosecutor and not merely as one forthcoming from
24 Mr. McCloskey himself. And I hope that satisfies you and that we can
1 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you for understanding. We will
3 certainly not finish your testimony.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you and I do accept.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But I could understand. This is the
6 complication. I can follow you in French. So I got the interpretation
7 after I had already understood what you had stated.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can go to speaking the Serb
9 language, if you wish. I said in French what I wanted to say, so to
10 accelerate matters, I can now go into Serb. I was listening to you in
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrovic, you can -- you have to keep it
13 because, for example, sometimes I receive comments that you were running
14 too fast, for example. You wouldn't know that were you running too fast
15 so you need to keep the headphones. It won't be of any help to yourself
16 and to us if you remove them. We will spend --
17 THE WITNESS: No, no.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You can speak whichever language you choose.
19 THE WITNESS: I will follow you in English, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. And you can then
21 speak and intervene in Serbian.
22 THE WITNESS: Serbian, yeah.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That will be translated to us because we don't
24 understand the language.
25 Okay. So we can now start the procedure. It's going to be like
1 this. Mr. Nicholls for the Office of the Prosecutor is going to go first.
2 He is expected to last about two hours, I take it. He will then be
3 followed by the various Defence teams, and it's estimated we are in the
4 region of about three hours all of them put together. I also wanted to
5 tell you one thing, since you mentioned something about the Defence teams
6 that they have ignored you, they haven't shown you any importance, et
7 cetera. It's not the case. I can assure you that whenever we have
8 discussed you or your report here, that was done with the utmost respect
9 both from the Prosecution and from the Defence counsel. So please put
10 your mind at rest that you enjoy all the respect and if we notice that
11 anyone shows disrespect to you, we will intervene and protect you.
12 THE WITNESS: I understand.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Mr. Nicholls. We'll finish
14 at 7.00 sharp.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
17 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. The first thing I want to ask you about is your background. Then
20 I'll ask you a little bit about how you know Mr. Borovcanin. And then the
21 third thing I'll ask you about is, as His Honour put to you, for you to
22 explain in your own words how you came to travel to Srebrenica and
23 Potocari and film this footage. So we'll get to that quite soon.
24 First of all, could you tell us your full name for the record,
1 A. My name is Zoran Petrovic.
2 Q. Okay. And --
3 A. My nickname is Pirocanac because there it's like John Smith in
5 by my nickname.
6 Q. And can you just tell us what the nickname means, if it does mean
8 A. I think it -- nomen est omen. It means that my parents came from
9 this region near Bulgarian border. This is a town Piroc and Pirocanac is
10 a man from Pirot, Pirotian, if you want.
11 Q. Okay. Now, when were you born?
I was born in
And how long have you lived in
14 A. All my life.
15 Q. Whole life, okay. Can you tell us about your -- just a little bit
16 about your education and then your professional background as a
17 journalist. What -- briefly give us a run through of your career.
I graduated at the philological faculty of
19 literature and language. I did my post-graduate studies, my master in --
21 the prestigious schools in
22 at the same school. This was one very important reason for which I
23 couldn't satisfy your needs before. So I'm employee of the Institute of
24 Political Studies in
25 this institute, I lead a small centre for geopolitical studies which is
1 called southeast Jugoistok in Serbian. So I am, I could say, an expert in
3 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit about your work as a
4 journalist and whether that was primarily as a reporter, if I use the
5 right word, or whether you also worked as a cameraman in the past before
A. I started in famous
8 we can say best journalist in ex-Yugoslavia. So in -- but practically
9 started with the mainstream media in 79, I was for six months in
10 Nicaraguan war, covering events in
11 my career was mostly world policy subjects connected with the hot spots in
12 the planet.
So I did a lot of reports from
13 85, I was kept and captured for 40 days by some tough group. So I have a
14 long experience in difficult subjects. And I covered also events in civil
15 war in
16 Semizovac, Srebrenica; so I covered most of the important events.
17 Mostly I worked during the war for French television, TF1, which
18 is the biggest private television in
19 independent journalist. I was the first, if I can say, independent,
20 freelance journalist from the communist world ever in this foundation,
21 Journalistes En Europe in
22 Monde, Hubert Beuve-Mery, and I am very proud of this moment in my CV. So
23 mostly I couldn't get full employment in
24 years were in Croatian magazine Star which was best-ever magazine in
1 journalist, as le grand reporteur, as the French say. So I'm just for
2 three years permanently employed and I'm nearer to my retirement than to
3 the beginning, much nearer. So -- but this is a society we lived in.
4 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you some questions about
5 Mr. Borovcanin, and if -- could you start by telling -- excuse me, when
6 you first met Mr. Borovcanin?
7 A. If you allow me, I will start now in Serbian.
8 Q. That's fine.
9 A. For other people. [Interpretation] I met Mr. Borovcanin for the
10 first time, if I recall correctly, in 1994, in the winter of 1994. There
11 was a large offensive. A telecommunications system was supposed to be
12 taken over at
13 make a reportage for the telegraph weekly
14 interpreters believe I'm going too fast, by all means they should warn me.
15 I appreciate their work and I know that most people speak too fast.
16 It was an exceptionally interesting situation for a journalist to
17 be in since a group of Serb soldiers was surrounded at the top of the
18 mountain where the telecommunications centre was, and it was one of the
19 key points for telecommunications links in
the whole of
20 was the crossroads of TV, communication networks, a very sensitive spot.
21 And I asked to go and report from there. I didn't know that I would meet
22 Mr. Borovcanin then. Together with a group of their soldiers, I climbed
23 up the mountain in deep snow. It was very difficult to get through the
24 encirclement. Fire was opened upon us and the same applied to when we
25 were going back a week later.
1 Why was it interesting for me? I learned that some Mujahedin were
2 there, volunteers from the Muslim countries, and I personally saw them
3 there in close proximity of the Serbian positions. Those are the guys
4 yelling Tekbir, Tekbir, and are fierce and fanatical fighters. The
5 reportage was published, including the cover page, and it was a scoop for
6 me. As far as I recall, perhaps I met commander Saric, I'm not certain
7 because they didn't go all the way up to the summit. I didn't go with
8 them. I went with a group of soldiers. A year later, perhaps a bit over
9 one year, in 1995, in the summer of that year, three to four weeks before
10 the events in Srebrenica, I located them again and I wanted to take some
11 footage for Studio B, although at that point, or subsequently, I never
12 received a camera from that poor TV station. They had one camera and they
13 needed it in the city in order to cover the events there.
14 That -- the case referred to here and the camera I'm talking about
15 is also something I had at Semizovac when we went with Ljubisa Borovcanin
16 to reach their positions; they were in a double ring of encirclement.
17 They were encircled from the outside and from the inside by the Muslims,
18 and to cover a few hundred metres as the crow flies we had to take the
19 round about way of some 80 kilometres. That is why some footage may be
20 too long but I know that Christiane Amanpour, at the time, made a report
21 with the Black Swans which was a special unit of the Bosnian army. And
22 there were a number of Islamic volunteers there as well. I wanted to do
23 the same but she has a team of 10 to 15 to work with. Those people of Mr.
24 Borovcanin's helped me that I showed the conditions they were in living in
25 the forest and at the positions. The broadcast was actually called, "When
1 you catch a fox alive."
2 And the third meeting was concerning Srebrenica, when I
established contact with that unit from
4 although I wasn't able to locate him right away. Then he called back. It
5 was probably on the 12th of July. I had certain doubts as to the date,
6 whether it was the 12th or the 13th or the 13th and the 14th. However, we
7 agreed that it was probably the 13th and the 14th.
8 Thanks to the date you can see on the footage itself.
9 It was long expected that Srebrenica would fall. It was expected
10 to happen for months and all the world agencies were reporting on that and
11 that's why I wanted to go there.
12 Q. Thank you. Let me go back a bit and ask you a couple of follow-up
13 questions and then we'll get to July.
14 The campaign at
15 long did you spend with Mr. or Commander Borovcanin at that time in 1994?
16 A. I cannot recall exactly. I was at the staff, down there. I don't
17 know what the place was called. And I probably saw him there with Saric.
18 In any case, I know I saw General Saric first, in the reportage,
19 General Saric figures as a more important person than Mr. Borovcanin. But
20 I don't remember we had any particular contact then. Maybe I was wrong.
21 Maybe I just saw him at the command then.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. In any case, his team, his elite unit, permitted me to go there at
24 my own risk all the way up to the summit. I was embedded. They covered
25 me, tried to have me not get killed, but that was basically their task. I
1 was quite lucky.
2 Q. So let me just -- I think this is clear but let me just make sure.
3 When you were with Mr. Borovcanin's unit in 1994, you were embedded, as
4 you say, that was during -- you were with them while they were in actual
5 combat; is that right?
6 A. I climbed up to a group of soldiers, maybe 50 strong or perhaps up
7 to 100, they were defending the relay point which is strategically very
8 important. All around there were Mujahedin, and I know that, for example,
9 when I left the house, I was followed by their doctor and was -- who was
10 wounded in the leg by the Muslim soldiers. It was quite tough. The news
11 report was published. Had we discussed this earlier, you would have been
12 able to find it in the Telegraph. It was five or six pages long.
13 Q. Thank you. Just very briefly how long were you embedded with that
14 unit, with Mr. Borovcanin's unit?
15 A. I climbed up to the top -- well, maybe two or three days, I
16 believe it was in March, maybe you can see it in the newspaper. There was
17 a great snowstorm, bad weather. I was there during the time I needed to
18 make the news report, take some photographs and then descend. It was
19 quite an effort for them because they had to enter the besieged area and
20 then leave it again. It's always a risk to have soldiers wounded.
21 However, I believe I justified their trust and efforts since I produced a
22 balanced report that I'm proud of.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, if could you please tell me -- you started to
24 talk about this and I asked to you stop for a minute -- about how you came
25 to meet with Mr. Borovcanin in July 1995 in Bratunac, the process first of
1 who you had to ask for permission or what you had to do to be able to go
2 and report on the events in Srebrenica.
3 A. I managed to do that with a very state-of-the-art device called
4 telephone, since it was in another country in Republika Srpska. I was in
6 announced that Serbs entered Srebrenica, in the world of journalists it is
7 madness because everyone wants to be there from all over the world. By
8 the way, when I was there, there were dozens of different journalists, but
9 no one asked them to talk about it. Maybe they might be of assistance,
10 people such as Mr. Block from
11 came there with NGOs as usual. There was this excitement among the
12 journalists, there were dozens of them from
13 the 12th, since I initially failed to contact those people, I set out
14 towards the border crossing called Ljubovija, there is a bridge over the
16 however, unsuccessfully.
17 They told me that operations were on going, Serbs had entered
18 Srebrenica but battles were going on for a while after that.
19 I returned to
20 believe, I managed to convey my message to Mr. Borovcanin's unit and he
21 called back.
22 The credit which I had earned objectively reporting on their unit
23 was probably decisive. The next day, he waited for me at the bridge, at
24 which I had not been able to pass the previous day, and then we entered
1 Q. Thank you. And can you just tell me very briefly what -- how you
2 explained to Mr. Borovcanin what you wanted to do and what you wanted to
3 accomplish by going to Srebrenica and what he said to you about being able
4 to come and work with his and be with his --
5 A. [In English] Can you repeat the beginning?
6 Q. Yes, it's not a good question. What did Mr. Borovcanin say to you
7 during that telephone conversation when he called you back?
8 A. [Interpretation] I truly do not recall the conversation. However,
9 I know that we discussed that I couldn't cross. I must have told him that
10 I tried on the 11th and the 12th to do that. I tried to get into touch
11 with the press service of Republika Srpska as did other Serbian
12 journalists but we were all told not to come. We were -- we are a small
13 country, a small village, so to say, we all know each other and someone
14 told me, Pirocanac, don't come here. I don't know whether it was a
15 Colonel. In any case he told me, don't come here; we would have to arrest
16 you since operations are still
ongoing. The same situation as in
17 you are not embedded with US troops, it is impossible for you to enter as
18 a journalist. That was the situation. I don't remember any other
19 details. I do remember, however, that I tried to persuade him to help me
20 to see what was going on. He agreed right away. He could have said no.
21 Q. And thank you. This conversation was on the 12th?
22 A. [In English] Maybe it was 11th, I cannot be sure.
23 Q. Thank you. And then you started to say how you met Mr. Borovcanin
24 at the bridge in Bratunac. Best as you recollect, what day was that that
25 you met Mr. Borovcanin?
1 A. The 13th of July. I don't know the day now. I should look to the
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. But it was 13th.
5 Q. Thank you. And best as you remember, about what time was it that
6 you met on the bridge?
7 A. Well, [Interpretation] There was a procedure. You first had to
8 cross the Serbian border and then the border into Republika Srpska on the
9 other end of the bridge. In any case, since a lot of time has passed, I
10 can go by the first scene that you can see in my report, when I arrived at
11 the Dutch compound. It was around 2.30 or perhaps around 3.00. I think
12 the first time recorded is 14 hours 29 minutes. Perhaps the procedure
13 took some half hour at the bridge. I don't think it is very important.
14 In any case, I entered Bratunac and the compound around 2.30 or 3.00, as
15 far as I recall. And this can be checked against the recording, the
17 Q. Thank you. We just have a few minutes. I've got a couple other
18 questions before we break for the day. You recall you met with me for the
19 first time on 28th of February in
20 A. 2005?
21 Q. 2006.
22 A. 6, yeah.
23 Q. And also with me was Mr. Blaszczyk, my investigator?
24 A. Blaszczyk.
25 Q. And Zoran Lesic?
1 A. Employee, yeah.
2 Q. Employee with the --
3 A. Sound was not so well at the end.
4 Q. And on that day, do you recall that you provided us with a copy of
5 your raw footage from the 8-millimetre tape that you had, the original
6 tape you had used in July 1995?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you recall signing -- that we asked to you sign the tape
9 and you were -- excuse me?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes?
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: This whole series of questions were leading ones.
12 Obviously. My colleague is putting his -- well, his assertion to the
13 witness asking him to confirm. So he knows the way how to ask questions.
14 I think it would be more proper because it's examination-in-chief.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, I can do that, Your Honour. I frankly didn't
17 think this was a matter where I would be getting an objection but I
18 don't -- should I just -- I'll move on.
19 Q. After you gave us the copy of your 8 millimetre tape and we copied
20 it on our equipment, did we ask to you do anything with that tape?
21 A. I didn't understand quite well.
22 Q. I'm not surprised.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Strictly speaking, you're right, Mr. Lazarevic but
24 it's more practical to proceed the way Mr. Nicholls was handling the --
25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, I didn't hear well the question.
1 MR. NICHOLLS:
2 Q. It's simple. Do you recall that you signed the tape for us, the
3 copy that you --
4 A. I signed several things among this cassette also.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Now, now, the copy that we made from the
6 tape you brought to the interview, what was the tape that you brought to
7 the interview, your 8-millimetre tape? Was that an original recording or
8 was that copy of a copy of a copy or something?
9 A. No, I gave I think already before to Mr. McCloskey, if I remember,
10 to his crew, VHS cassette of the disappeared original 28 minutes programme
11 documentary Operation Srebrenica that I
found finally in
12 believe or not, because the original disappeared from Studio B. Until
13 today nobody explained how it was possible because, as I know, it is the
14 only in the history of 20 years of Studio B, only original programme made
15 which disappeared. It was on the cassette which was called Umatic. It's
16 not any more in use, very big, and it disappeared I was told from Studio B
17 from the bureau of the editor-in-chief. So -- but I was lucky that some
18 Serbs in
19 talking about our meeting and this was my cassette, original, with some
20 slight changes. I think today I don't know what happened for everything
21 which was there but I was happy when my -- my VHS copy reappeared to
22 explain a lot of things.
23 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you a couple more questions about that
25 MR. NICHOLLS: If we can, Judge, this would be a good time for me
1 to break.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's perfect. Mr. Petrovic it's time to stop here
3 today because our time is over. You will have time to relax because we
4 will be sitting tomorrow in the afternoon.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say -- as this is the end of
6 the day, if you will entitle me to be a little bit cynical in French. As
7 I have spent over four hours up top there, there was very cold breeze up
8 there. It was a bit claustrophobic. I'm not a softie but I couldn't help
9 thinking that this is what happened when people were deprived all the time
10 and there was air coming in all the time. I hope I don't have to wait
11 four hours tomorrow again, thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Tomorrow we will start immediately with you at 2.15
13 in the afternoon. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: Merci.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at ,
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of
17 December, 2007, at