1 Wednesday, 5 December 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon. Madam Registrar, could you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor
8 versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, for the record from the Defence teams I
10 notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Haynes. Present for the
11 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls.
12 There are a couple of things that we needed to draw your attention
13 to. I'm addressing Prosecution in particular and for the first item.
14 Yesterday, I think the Pandurevic Defence team filed a motion requesting
15 their own expert who is named in the motion, I don't need to repeat the
16 name, to be present during the testimony of your expert witness Butler.
17 Do you have any objection to that?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon. None at all, Your Honour. No
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we are disposing of the motion orally here
21 and now. Motion is being granted for two reasons. One, because the
22 request is, in our opinion, justified, and secondly, because the
23 Prosecution adheres to the request.
24 Yesterday also the Prosecution filed a motion requesting to amend
25 the 65 ter exhibit list relating to Witness number 2, Dean Manning. Now,
1 as you know Dean Manning is scheduled to start his testimony on Monday.
2 I don't know if you are in a position today, if you're not, we are
3 establishing a deadline, that being Friday for your responses. If there
4 is opposition, please let us know now so that we can grant the motion and
6 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We respond to that motion, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fine. So Friday, please, is the latest, so
9 that Monday when we return we'll be in a position to dispose of the
11 Similarly, today the Defence filed a motion request the
12 determination of the evidence of the same witness, of Dean Manning.
13 Again, we cannot allow for -- for the usual procedural time limit in this
14 case because he starts on Monday. So we are also giving you up till
15 Friday to file your response, and then we'll dispose of the two motions
16 first thing Monday morning. Okay.
17 Then there are other matters. I think our Senior Legal Officer
18 will be approaching those who are directly related. One deals with the
19 Pandurevic motion, and the other one deals with the Miletic motion.
20 All right. Having said that, I think if there are no further
21 preliminaries on your part we can bring in the witness. Yes? Okay.
22 Thank you.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 WITNESS: ZORAN PETROVIC [Resumed]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, to you, Mr. Petrovic, and welcome
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We will resume the examination-in-chief, and then
4 we'll proceed with the cross-examinations.
5 Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
8 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Just for the record, I note that Mr. Petrovic has
11 brought some papers with him. I don't know exactly what they are.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One a moment, one moment. Okay. It was my fault,
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I notice the witness, Mr. Petrovic, has some papers
15 with him. I don't have any objection, I just want to make sure my friends
16 to know that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but let me explain to the witness because we
18 need to be fair with everyone here.
19 Mr. Petrovic, the procedure here is as follows: You are allowed
20 to refer to notes that you may have made and documents that you may bring
21 with you in the course of your testimony, especially if you need to
22 refresh your memory or consult your records. However, however, you need
23 to be aware that if you do so, then either parties, both Prosecution and
24 Defence can ask to see those papers.
25 THE WITNESS: Of course.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I'm just explaining what the
2 procedure is. So in other words, if you make use of them, then you have
3 to make them available if a request is made.
4 THE WITNESS: For example, information for my subpoena among other
5 things, but they're free to -- I can offer them to see this. No problem.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So, yes, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. I want to pick up where we left off -- where we left off
9 yesterday, sir, and part of what I was asking you about was the chronology
10 of your meetings with Mr. Borovcanin and you told us how you were embedded
11 in his unit in 1994, and we all know about the time you spent with him in
12 July 1995. What I'd like to do is ask you now when was the next time you
13 met Mr. Borovcanin after 15 July 1995?
14 A. It was in my village near Belgrade, beginning 2002, I think.
15 Anyway, sometime after he was, as I heard, in contact with you, and he
16 decided to -- to come to The Hague. So he wanted me to -- to testify for
17 him for the -- it is as I counted more or less in all 40 hours. So for
18 those 40 hours I had no -- no reason not to say it's not only help for
19 him, but I think also for this Tribunal, for the final truth.
20 Q. Thank you. And what did you say to Mr. Borovcanin when you met
21 him at that time?
22 A. This meeting was very short. I just agreed right away. I don't
23 remember details. The essential was done by me in the first minute of our
25 Q. Okay. And after that, did you meet with Mr. Borovcanin's Defence
1 lawyers or investigators working for him?
2 A. Yes. I met with your colleague Mr. McCloskey, and I met with --
3 he will be angry now, the lawyer from the team, Mr. Lazarevic. He's from
4 Bijeljina if I know well, yeah.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I want to ask you, before we get into
6 talking about those 40 hours with Mr. Borovcanin, can you tell us --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. --
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Sorry, I apologise to my colleague. I believe
9 there is a huge misunderstanding here about these 40 hours. Maybe it has
10 to do with two events happening at the same time. I don't believe -- I
11 don't know how to proceed now. The witness obviously does speak very good
12 English. On the other hand, I can make my submission in B/C/S but he
13 would understand it anyway.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I can re-ask my question which might --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Even if you ask Mr. Bourgon or Ms. Fauveau -- yeah.
16 Anyway --
17 MR. NICHOLLS: I can ask it a different way, Judge.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that would solve the problem.
19 If it doesn't, we will have submissions in the absence of the witness and
20 we'll carry on from there. Yes, Mr. -- Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic and thank
21 you, Mr. Nicholls and thank you, Witness.
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. Later on I'm going to ask you some more about the time you spent
24 with Mr. Borovcanin on the 12th and the 13th of July, 1995, but right now
25 what I want to ask you about is what you did with your raw footage that
1 you shot that you shared with us and how you turned that into the
2 documentary that was broadcast on Studio B. Just if you can briefly
3 explain what you did with your 8-millimetre tape when you came back to
5 A. Well, I do what was my work for. I agreed with the
6 editor-in-chief to do a documentary. I returned and I started editing
7 from the machines they have, because it's not professional machine, and I
8 am not professional cameraman. I'm pretty lousy cameraman. Good
9 journalist, but bad cameraman. So it came to -- first to Studio B.
10 Q. And when did your -- well, could you tell us the title of your
12 A. Title in Serbian is Operacija Srebrenica, it means Operation
14 Q. And --
15 A. 28 minutes document, which is in standard.
16 Q. And when did that programme air on Studio B? When was it played?
17 A. Few days later. 15th of -- maybe even that night or 17th. I
18 mixed all the time the -- but it was right after we did it. We started
19 right away when we returned, and we aired as quick as possible. So in
20 two, three days' time after airing everybody was interested by the event.
21 Q. Would you like to know the date you gave us in the interview?
22 Would that help you remember?
23 A. Yeah, maybe 15 or 17th something like that.
24 Q. You told us 17th.
25 A. 17th, yeah.
1 Q. Just try to think about it while we go on.
2 A. This is a long time ago, so one day more or less, it's not
3 important to the story.
4 Q. Okay. I'd like to play just the very, very beginning. We're not
5 going to watch the whole thing by any means at this time. 2011 the Studio
6 B documentary, just so the witness can see what we're talking about.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. I think that's enough, and I think you probably remember that.
10 What have we just been watching?
11 A. You want me to tell you what we are watching?
12 Q. Yes. I have to ask questions in a certain way, so I have to ask
13 you what that is rather than telling you --
14 A. This is -- I respected mostly the -- the realtime in the -- in the
15 moments I got there, so this is in raw material also the real beginning of
16 the pictures I did coming -- coming to the British -- pardon, the Dutch
17 compound in Bratunac.
18 Q. Thank you. And can you just confirm that what we just saw was the
19 beginning of your documentary?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, in addition to that 28-minute documentary for
22 Studio B --
23 A. It's 28 minutes.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Did you write any articles about this --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. These events?
3 A. Yes. These articles, you have it in your documentation also and
4 everybody. It was an interview magazine from Belgrade which doesn't exist
5 anymore, six years. In that time -- it's Politika Editing House, and it
6 was the story, the same thing but with more details, because I think my --
7 my printed reportage was better than with the documentary because of my
8 principal problem not good knowledge of manipulating camera and not good
9 camera at all.
10 Q. I understand. And just since you've brought that up, I don't
11 think you answered that yesterday. Was that a professional camera or was
12 that a personal camera? What was that you were using?
13 A. It was a camera I bought once in 1993 in New York. It costed
14 maybe $750 and it last -- it's destiny, it was stolen from Studio B once
15 when they wanted to repair it, so they owe me money for this also.
16 Q. Okay. Do you remember the date that your article was published in
17 Interview Magazine?
18 A. I saw it recently I think the date is 21st of July or something.
19 End of July.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we bring up 469, please.
21 Q. And --
22 A. Yes, 21st.
23 Q. And we're looking at your article; is that right? Thank you.
24 You've just told us that you were I think happier with the article than
25 with the --
1 A. Professionally speaking.
2 Q. Yes. And you said yesterday about how your -- your previous
3 article when you were embedded the first time with Mr. Borovcanin's unit
4 was objective and earned you credit. How do you feel about this article
5 you published on the 21st in terms of its objectivity, its balance, its
6 accuracy? If you could describe it?
7 A. Well, I'm pretty sure that even today that it was one of the
8 most -- of the best articles explaining the situation after entering of
9 Serbs in Srebrenica, because I applied in -- in most of the moments of
10 this text very documentary things that I wrote, like I writing this here
11 now about the Tribunal.
12 The notes, I don't made them -- I didn't make them more beautiful
13 afterwards. I have a technique since beginning to -- to have a fidelity
14 to my initial text which is in the -- in the notes. So this -- this I
15 applied, and everything what was said there, most of the statements, this
16 is what I heard around. I mean, quotations.
17 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: The notes you're referring to that
18 you used as a basis for your article, did you write those down on the 13th
19 and 14th of July or did you write them down from your memory after you got
20 back from Belgrade?
21 A. Most of them I cannot be so specific, but probably some of -- some
22 of notes in parts -- in moments when I didn't film, because if you compare
23 this text with the film, you will see also different scenes that I don't
24 have on picture.
25 Q. I understand. Now --
1 A. I was alone. That's why, you know.
2 Q. Now, the last thing I want to do is -- and to let you know, the
3 Trial Chamber has viewed a copy of the material that you provided with us
4 at your interview which we called the raw material, and I want to show you
5 some parts of that and have you comment on those parts, just whether they
6 were in the original, whether it's something that's been taped over or
7 just how these little clips got into the raw material, if you can. Do you
9 A. Yeah, yeah.
10 Q. Okay. We will play the first one. These are from -- 2054 is the
11 65 ter number.
12 A. Can I do it alone, the second button?
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. NICHOLLS:
15 Q. Okay. That's good. That was a clip at 08:58:4 of a shell casing
16 after the house with the belongings in front of it?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Just if you can tell us about --
19 A. This shell is still in my -- on the balcony at my home. This
20 shell is from 1991, from Vukovar battlefield. And -- and it proves also
21 that this unfortunate raw material was, as I said, previously like folk
22 song, you know. It was in many hands. And even there I don't remember I
23 filmed, but this cassette -- this 8-millimetres cassette was used many
24 times. So it was not profession -- it was not for professional use, which
25 is -- there is a custom to -- to tape only once. And this was used for
1 many purposes and many times, so this material you -- you talk about --
2 you're talking about is not so reliable, you know.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. For expertise, I mean.
5 Q. But --
6 A. That's why -- excuse me. That's why I since the beginning thought
7 that my 28 minutes is the most just and most accurate material about this
9 Q. Thank you. Just a couple more. Your explanation may be the same
10 or it may not. It's -- we'll see.
11 A. If it's about Karadzic scene there.
12 Q. That's one of them.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. We'll play the next one, please.
15 A. Maybe -- excuse me. Maybe it's a moment I promise to lady
16 translators to speak in one language. So if I have to choose between
17 English and Europe, one of the old European languages which is Serbian, I
18 would prefer now to continue in Serb if you permit.
19 Q. That's perfectly fine.
20 A. Thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You have the right to choose your own language.
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. Anytime, whichever you prefer. Okay. We're starting at 10
24 minutes, 15 seconds?
25 [Videotape played]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I am not seeing anything at the moment.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: That -- excuse me. That's correct. This clip is a
3 part of the tape where the screen goes blank, but you can hear -- you
4 can't hear it at the moment unfortunately, for some reason, but you can
5 hear the text which is -- here we go.
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
8 Q. If you can just -- if you have any comments on that.
9 A. [Interpretation] this is most probably, as I can see it -- the
10 sound has been amplified. I've never paid any attention to it. This is
11 probably my house, a conversation with somebody on that occasion. This
12 was a topic that was of some interest for many people, and I can't provide
13 any other comment. This is just something that was recorded by way of
14 interference. I really can't tell you after such a long time about the
15 context within which this was taken.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. The third one you'll be familiar with. I just
17 wanted to show it to you. It is a box of military rations it looks like.
18 You'll see it in a minute. Now starting at 24:10 we started.
19 [Videotape played]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is again a part of my old
21 machine which pre-dated the computer era in my country. I didn't have a
22 computer. And this is proof that NATO was involved in helping the
23 Mujahedin, like I told you yesterday. Around Majevica NATO shared food
24 with the Mujahedin, and I brought that information as a tidbit from my
25 journey, and I would show these clips all over the place in Serbia.
1 This is yet another proof that this cassette had been used and
2 reused, and I really don't know why this happened, how come the film that
3 you want to show has been interrupted. I know which direction this is
4 taking, but I can't take you any more than that. I am -- I recognise the
5 NATO standard portions that were used to feed volunteers from the Muslim
6 world who came to Bosnia to bring us closer to the European Union. And if
7 you will allow me, this was a bit of a cynicism, because you asked for it
8 didn't you.
9 Q. Okay. Do you know when that little clip we've seen of the -- of
10 the ration box, the food box, was filmed, if you remember?
11 A. [In English] I cannot, because it is connected with the previous
12 times. I brought this from some of the fronts right before Srebrenica.
13 Q. So --
14 A. So it's simply -- maybe it's in Pale maybe on some the front I
15 was. It's very difficult to tell you. I don't know. Tell me more I will
16 tell you eventually more. I don't know what you want to prove.
17 Q. No, no. I'm just trying to get your best memory of when that
18 might have happened.
19 A. Oops, I started again in English.
20 Q. That's okay. Let me see if I understood you. Do you know if that
21 was taped before or after July 1995, the box?
22 A. It's probably because of the box. The first talk in the family
23 must be in the same occasion or -- but I cannot prove. But it must be
24 before because I had this much before Srebrenica.
25 Q. The last one is the one you referred to, Mr. Karadzic. We'll just
1 play it for one second. It's at 23:21 we're starting.
2 [Videotape played]
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. [Interpretation] This short clip, maybe a
4 second or two, that again is from that same cassette that we're talking
5 about. This is raw material, and it is obvious this was done in the
6 studio of Television Pale preceding Dr. Karadzic's interview, and this was
7 attended by a team of TF1 television that I had brought, that I had very
8 often used during the war, and they recorded that as -- to be shown,
9 because they needed something that was recorded on the ground. I was with
10 them, and this was taken when I entered that studio with the French, and
11 they also recorded this interview with Dr. Karadzic.
12 MR. NICHOLLS:
13 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, is that on the tape before you go to
14 Srebrenica in mid-July or after? When does it get on the tape, if you
16 A. [In English] It could be -- [Interpretation] If I could check with
17 the French team when they were there, I could tell you. After Srebrenica,
18 I couldn't go to Bosnia, because I received threats because of this video.
19 So this could have been in 1994, prior to Srebrenica, because I also
20 authored two long interviews with Dr. Karadzic, one for Television
21 Belgrade, and it was also aired on Studio B Television.
22 On reflection, I believe that this was before July 1995. But you
23 have to bear in mind that that cassette was used by poor people. There
24 were no cameras. There was no money for videotapes, and that's why this
25 cassette was used and reused, which resulted in a bit of chaos. The whole
1 problem arises from the fact that I gave this cassette to everybody, which
2 must be a unique case in the professional journalism towards the end of
3 the 20th century. I don't think there is any similar case anywhere.
4 That's the explanation. These are several layers intertwining,
5 very short clips interfering on a videotape that was used and reused many
6 times to put it that way.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. But just to make sure I understand, you said
8 the tape was shared with many other people, but the clips we've seen, if I
9 understood you, you took yourself in Pale on your balcony or did I get
10 that wrong?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. All right. Now I want to move to the 13th of July. You told us
13 about how you met Mr. Borovcanin on the bridge in Bratunac and the
14 procedure of how you crossed the bridge. Could you -- and then I think
15 you told us as well that you went straight to Potocari.
16 Who was in the car with you when you went to Potocari?
17 A. When Mr. Borovcanin met me, I had my own car on the Serb side of
18 the bridge, i.e., of the Drina River. On the other bank was
19 Mr. Borovcanin in a car, and in that car we went -- actually, for a long
20 time I could not remember whether we were on our own. I believe that we
21 went to the compound on our own, the two of us, and that later on a driver
22 joined us, somebody from the police probably.
23 Your colleague kept on saying that I was always in some military
24 or police vehicle, military vehicle, rather, which is just nonsense. I
25 would like him to show me a photo of that vehicle. I was with Borovcanin
1 who was police, not the army. We came after Bratunac. We passed through
2 Bratunac. At the far end of Bratunac there was this compound, and the
3 first shots taken from the car depict that. We pulled over somewhere
4 there and we proceeded on foot.
5 You will see later some people arriving there, and it is more than
6 clear that the shots were taken from -- not from a car but by me standing
7 on the ground.
8 Is there anything else you would like me to tell you? A little
9 bit more -- [In English] Translators again. Am I too fast?
10 Q. I think you're okay. They will alert you if you're going too
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't agree with you, Mr. Nicholls. I think if he
13 continues in Serbian, I think it would be better for the interpreters,
14 because the moment you are both speaking English you are tending to
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the lady
17 interpreters whether they are able to follow me, i.e., whether I am slow
19 MR. NICHOLLS:
20 Q. I think if we go at this pace, the way that you're talking and the
21 way I'm talking, we will be fine.
22 Do you remember -- can you describe the car you drove in with
23 Mr. Borovcanin when you went to Potocari, the colour --
24 A. Absolutely not. It was just a car. It was nothing special. It
25 was just an ordinary passenger vehicle. Not Yugoslav made. It was
1 probably a Japanese-made car because it was already that time when we had
2 some imports from Japan. I really don't know. You will have to
3 somebody -- somebody. I didn't pay much attention to the cars that I was
4 driven in, but it was not a military car. If Mr. Ruez is listening, I
5 would really like him to explain how could he speak such a load of
6 nonsense which is absolutely inadmissible for a level that he was at.
7 Q. Okay. I think you've made clear. Who was driving the car on the
8 way to Potocari?
9 A. [In English] On the way to Potocari. I think it was
10 Mr. Borovcanin, but maybe again I'm wrong. In this period of this
11 story -- [Interpretation] I apologise once again. It may have been the
12 driver who had been sent. I really can't recollect his presence from the
13 bridge to the entrance to the compound, and I really hope you can't expect
14 me to remember that. I was -- concentrated more on the events and not the
15 car that I was being driven in.
16 Q. Okay.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Does he remember the colour of the car?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: I think I asked that, if he could describe the
19 colour, and he said absolutely not.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: He has given us an indication that it was probably
21 Japanese. Yes, but --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging by the length of the car, I
23 believe that it was a medium-sized car. It was not very luxurious. I
24 can't remember the colour despite my efforts. I would very much like to
25 be able to tell you something about the car, but I can't. I don't even
1 remember that I put it in my text, the colour of the car. But I know that
2 not for a single moment was I in any contact with the military or their
3 vehicles if that is the ultimate drift of your question. I spent all my
4 time with Mr. Borovcanin, who was a member of the special police of that
6 MR. NICHOLLS:
7 Q. Let me -- let me just say something to you. This isn't a
8 question. I'm not trying to trick you. I wasn't trying to get -- get you
9 to say it was a military car. I was asking you just if you remembered the
10 car and if you could describe it, and that's completely all I was asking.
11 A. I'm telling you the truth. I really can't remember the detail of
12 that kind.
13 Q. Okay. Now, you've made it clear you don't remember whether there
14 was a driver in the car with you and Mr. Borovcanin at the beginning or at
15 Potocari, and you've just said, "I spent all my time with Mr. Borovcanin,
16 who was a member of the special police of that brigade."
17 Was there any time you were in that car driving without
18 Mr. Borovcanin in the video we see?
19 A. I believe that the video footage that I aired, that at the time
20 Mr. Borovcanin was with me or the other way round, I was with him.
21 Q. Okay. And you've explained a little bit about what it means to be
22 embedded in a unit and how you had difficulty getting to Srebrenica first
23 because of the conflict and that you could have been arrested. Was there
24 any agreement with Mr. Borovcanin or with anybody about what you would --
25 not what you would film, but what you would do, where you would be during
1 your time there with Mr. Borovcanin?
2 A. I'm a journalist, and Mr. Borovcanin participated in the war. He
3 was a warrior. Every journalist is looking for exclusive piece of news.
4 Let me explain that. My colleague, a Serbian journalist, tried to enter
5 Mosul in 2003 in Iraq, but he wasn't embedded with the Americans. He could
6 not come close to them. I'm talking about Mr. Lazanski. If you know what
7 war is, especially the modern war, if you don't have passage, if you're
8 not there you can't get any news because modern armies do not recognise
9 journalism as such.
10 That's why I had tried to look for ways and means and one of them
11 was to call people that I knew. If I had known somebody else from the
12 army, from the military, for example, I would have asked them, although
13 the military probably would not have allowed me to enter because it was
14 their general position that the operation was under way, and I could see
15 that when I was there. During my short stay I could see that the fighting
16 was still going on and it would still go on for days.
17 This is the kind of situation in which you're seeking
18 opportunities to get in. How do you get in if an operation was under way?
19 And I was able to find a way. The man believed me, he trusted me. He
20 thought that there was nothing to hide from me. I suppose that he would
21 have had a lot less problems if this film had never been made, but life is
22 a bitch, and he's now in -- in the prison.
23 This is not the classical explanation of the word "embedded" in
24 this case. He trusted me. I came upon his invitation, and I could do
25 things because I was with him.
1 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you another clip. This is from the
2 Studio B footage, 2011, and it's a -- you'll recognise this immediately,
3 sir. It's a shot of men on a balcony. You'll see in a minute.
4 A. I just threw a glance on the previous page. I would like to
5 clarify something in the interpretation. Maybe this has been happening
6 often. When I was talking about my colleague, the Serb journalist who
7 tried to enter, I said Mosul in Iraq. This is a very important thing. He
8 could not enter there. And if you look at the transcript, you can't see
9 where he tried to enter. I tried to explain to you what does it mean to
10 be embedded in today's day and age, and if you don't see it precisely on
11 the transcript, I'm sure that there are some other imprecisions.
12 And if you will continue being so imprecise, then I will speak
13 English. This is inadmissible. I'm sure that I will same some other even
14 more important things, and if they are going to be imprecise I don't want
15 to go on speaking Serbian.
16 And just one more question. If I continue speaking Serbian, can I
17 see that version on the screen as well, my words in Serbian on the screen.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Please slow down, both of you --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Please slow down, both of you, and let's proceed in
21 as calm a manner as possible, please.
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. Let me just explain something to you, Mr. Petrovic. This is a
24 rough transcript which is made by our very good people here right as we go
25 along. Sometimes there's a symbol, it's like an upside down V?
1 A. [In English] Yes.
2 Q. And that means that that is a part to check particularly
3 carefully. Everyone of these transcripts is listened to over and over
4 again before it becomes the final transcript, but it's impossible to get a
5 perfect transcript simultaneously. So nothing in this world is perfect.
6 Occasionally there may be mistakes. But you don't need to worry that what
7 you see here is the way that this is going into the record permanently.
8 A. [Interpretation] Very well, then. I will try and slow down so
9 that Mosul and Iraq may be recorded, because this is important, and these
10 are not some unknown names, but I appreciate what you have just said.
11 Q. Let's play the clip. This is at 2:30. This is again actually
12 from our compilation trial video, but it's the same clip from the Studio
13 B. If we could play this.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop there.
16 Q. The first question: What did you learn, if anything, on the spot
17 there in the front of the house when you were filming these men about who
18 they were and why they were up there on the balcony?
19 A. This is sentence from the final version in the programme, this is
20 the voice off, which belongs to the over all information that I gathered
21 here and there during my filming, and after my return I inquired with
22 various people. There are people who had studied crimes committed over
23 the Serbs as well. So that as a conscientious journalist, I took my task
24 seriously, and the task was to provide the general public with as much
25 information as possible, and this is one of the sentences that I put in
1 the text, because, one, the programme was edited, once the material was
2 edited, and when you append sound to it then I read the text.
3 In a normal television houses, in rich television houses, it would
4 be different. In my case, I had a microphone in my hand. I was watching
5 the clip, and I was commenting in the studio. Some parts of the video
6 clip, however, contained my voice online. For example, the Dutch doctor
7 officer who was there whom I'd asked what was going on. That's how things
8 are done.
9 Q. Okay. My question is: When did you learn that these men on the
10 balcony, or when were you told that these men on the balcony were
11 criminals or suspected criminals who had tried to get onto the convoys?
12 When did you learn that piece of information?
13 A. This may be due to two things or two things are possible. I might
14 have heard this. In that chaos I heard it from people while people were
15 being assisted with their departure to Tuzla, people from Srebrenica, and
16 I may have also investigated things as soon as I returned learned it while
17 I was editing the programme. It is only logical that I heard it from
18 somebody there while I was filming, but I can't remember the details.
19 You have to know that I have to remember the words and record.
20 These are two different things, and you can't be equally successful at
21 both. So I really can't be very precise in answering this question. I
22 can't tell you when I heard it or from whom. I didn't know anybody but
23 Mr. Borovcanin for that matter, but I suppose that I put a question,
24 somebody answered the question. I did not record it. And I believe that
25 I actually got this information from the ground, from where I was.
1 Q. At the time you were filming?
2 A. Yes. Most probably, yes.
3 Q. Well, you say probably. Let me -- let me just ask if you remember
4 what you said in our interview when we met in 2006. That was earlier.
5 A. [In English] Yeah.
6 Q. Do you remember what you told me then?
7 A. Specifically -- [Interpretation] Can you jog my memory, please?
8 Can you quote the exact text? This must be in the -- in the -- in the
9 material that you gave me to read yesterday or the day before. I can't
10 remember all the details on the 200 pages of the text that you showed me
11 yesterday and the interview took place a year and a half ago, didn't it.
12 Q. That's understandable. The question was on page 172. "How did
13 you come to the conclusion that these people on the balcony, they should
14 be screened for war crimes?" And your answer was: "This is not my
15 conclusion. This is something I heard on the spot. I don't remember who
16 said. I probably asked somebody."
17 A. Yes. This is very similar to the answer that I have just
18 provided. I don't see any contradiction between that, what I told you a
19 year and a half ago, and what I've just told you now.
20 The long and the short of it is that I can't really be sure of who
21 provided that information to me. Was it John or Peter or Paul, but this
22 was said to me. I saw people on the balcony, and I knew who they were. I
23 am not a warrior. I was a journalist and it was my duty to convey
24 information, and that information could have been rumour, could have been
25 objective or subjective but it was not my conclusion in any case. This is
1 something that I heard. And it had -- it had a very clear purpose in the
3 It would have been a logical explanation that they were being
4 looked for and that's -- they were separated there. Somebody in the
5 compound probably answered that question. Nobody volunteered any
6 information. I always put question, but I don't know who I saw, because I
7 had a dual role to play. I had the role to ask questions and to record at
8 the same time.
9 Q. Okay. Do you recall hearing at any time then about this time that
10 you were there about lists of criminals?
11 A. I can't remember that. There is a researcher in Belgrade,
12 Mr. Ivanisevic, who is a well-respected researcher, a very pedantic
13 person. His wife hails from Srebrenica and he is familiar with the people
14 there. The agency that I worked for, Belgrade-based news agency called
15 Bina, as early as 1994 we published a publication about war crimes, and
16 his first list of crimes from Podrinje, and this was in English.
17 The regime in Belgrade you have to know at the time as of 1993, of
18 May 1993, up to 1995 carried out very strict censorship of everything that
19 arrived from Republika Srpska. As a result of all those things --
20 Q. Sorry.
21 A. So -- let me just finish. Ivanisevic has that list and maybe I
22 had that in mind.
23 Q. Okay. The question was just about at the time. Do you recall
24 what you wrote about the -- about the police knowing the names of
25 criminals in your article which you published on the 21st of July based on
1 your notes which you took?
2 A. Yes. It did not only involve the notes. We're go back to the
3 information, to my personal knowledge as a journalist. One doesn't go out
4 into the field with zero knowledge, blindfolded. Of course you have to
5 prepare beforehand.
6 In my luggage I had had information, because back in 1994 I had
7 published a book on those crimes and there was a list of people there.
8 Besides one of the persons indicted for war crimes was on the list that I
9 gave to Mr. McCloskey when he was in Belgrade, and that individual was
10 mentioned in Ivanisevic's book. Now he's a member of the Social
11 Democratic Party down there in Srebrenica. He was on that list too.
12 Now, when I tell you that these individuals were, well, this means
13 that I had personal knowledge about the Serbs having had information on
14 the individuals who had been plundering in the area for two years. You
15 have to know that more than 6.000 houses, Serb houses, were torched and
16 destroyed, and 2.500 people were killed, and this is something that is
17 never talked about. I didn't pay particular attention to that fact. It
18 was merely an illustration and I repeated that story in the magazine.
19 Q. Yes, you did. And just to make sure I'm clear, then, when you
20 wrote in the article that the Serb police moved in Potocari had the names
21 of all the criminals, you knew that before you went there?
22 A. Can you repeat your question once more, I apologise.
23 Q. You gave a very long answer so I'm trying to clarify. I don't if
24 my friend is standing up or not. He's going up and down.
25 What I want to know is that if you had this information that the
1 Serb police in Potocari had the names of Muslim criminals there before you
2 arrived or not.
3 A. I would not have been able to have that sort of information. Do
4 not try and lead me into these waters. I am a journalist. Who would
5 provide such a piece of information to a journalist? Did you ever see
6 Americans releasing the information on how many of their soldiers had
7 been -- or people had been killed in Iraq? Well, they never released
9 Mr. Borovcanin is neither my brother or relative. I was not a
10 member of their army either. I was a foreign citizen -- citizen from
11 another country. He found me likable and respected me, but to provide
12 that sort of information to someone in the midst of a war, that would be
14 Q. Okay. Let me ask you again in a different way. Try to listen
15 very carefully to my question because I wasn't asking you whether you got
16 that information from Mr. Borovcanin. That wasn't part of my question.
17 Let me just ask you this: Would it help you to look at the paragraph you
18 wrote about this in your article on the -- which was published on the 21st
19 of July? Would you like to?
20 A. [In English] Okay.
21 Q. If we could look at 469, please, page 2. Well, page 2 in English,
22 which is -- I'm sorry, I don't have all of this synchronised, but I
23 believe he could -- I believe the witness could read it just fine in
24 English. It's probably page 1 of the original. Actually, probably page 2
25 of the original as well.
1 On the English, on page 2, the fourth paragraph down -- the third
2 paragraphs talks about as you were telling us crimes committed by Muslims
3 against Serb civilians, and then the paragraph I want you to find and read
4 begins: "Jevic and the other policemen know that only too well. They
5 have the names of all the criminals. And in this jungle of people,
6 children in tears, dirty bundles, dust and the unbearable stench and
7 certain other smells they seem -- they have to find these specimens as
8 well among the Muslim civilians, and indeed there seem to have been some,
9 at least among the ones that were peeping from the balcony of one building
10 near the UN base."
11 A. Yes. Now we're discussing the text that I wrote as soon as I
12 finished my programme. It was also written in a very short period of
13 time. It had its dynamic. I had this load of information, including
14 names of certain individuals. And if I saw that the person had anything
15 to do with the operation, I combined that information with the information
16 that could not have been refuted in any way by that point, and that was of
17 course Mr. Ivanisevic, because he had the largest list of all the
18 criminals in that area, which is the area of Podrinje, the Drina valley.
19 That's the -- that particular curve of the Drina. So that's a scenario of
20 a text speaking about a war event.
21 Q. Okay. The part you read out -- I read out, this paragraph about
22 Jevic and the other policemen knowing about the criminals and that there
23 were some peering through the balcony, is that something that you knew,
24 that you heard, or something that you logically came to after reading
25 about other lists and putting together pieces of picture or something --
1 or is that something that you knew to be true when you wrote your article?
2 A. It's probably the combination of my presence on the very spot
3 where I filmed the people on the balcony and the previous knowledge
4 arising from the information and the list by Mr. Ivanisevic, and this
5 corresponded. The two corresponded, in my mind. And to the reader, it
6 was quite clear that -- they could infer logically that they had those
7 lists there on the spot. I can't tell you where I heard it or who I heard
8 it from.
9 I might have heard some of the information there. I combined all
10 these various pieces of information with the existing list from the book
11 of Mr. Ivanisevic, which had been published a year before, and it was
12 already in existence and it could account for many things that became
13 known later. I can't, however, tell you whether it was Pero who told me
14 this or that. I am giving you the names that I heard out there --
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. -- on the spot, but I cannot quote or cite anyone.
17 Q. On this page --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or I apologise. Let me give you
20 this illustration: On this page I can see one portion of the text that I
21 was unable to check. We can see the photograph, and below it says
22 "Abdic." He was one of the Muslim leaders who was supposed to avert the
23 war, but he was unable to overpower Izetbegovic.
24 This is something that I probably would never publish today, but I
25 didn't have the time, the fact that this -- that he was seen there with
1 the Serbs. This is a very interesting piece of information in view of the
2 later developments in Srebrenica. Why am I telling you this? Because I
3 tied this up with the scene that I witnessed on my way back to Belgrade on
4 that very same bridge, where I saw the French, Russian, and Yugoslav
5 Colonels on their way to a meeting with Mladic. And as a journalist, I
6 linked up all these things.
7 They all avoided saying anything. And the function of this text
8 was to indicate all the goings-on and that this was of course within the
9 bare minimum that I had with which I tried to receive the maximum.
10 Q. All right. Do you know a man named Dusko Jevic?
11 A. [English] I heard about him -- [Interpretation] I heard about him
12 but he is not an acquaintance of mine. I did not come across him. Perhaps I
13 saw him earlier on in relation to that brigade, but I can't say that I got to
14 know him nearly as well as I did Mr. Borovcanin, for instance. So, I do not
15 remember him except from that text when I wrote down some of the names that
16 I had heard. Therefore, we -- one can't say that we were acquaintances.
17 Q. Okay. This is quite the simple question. Did you, if you recall,
18 see Dusko Jevic in Potocari on the 13th of July?
19 A. Probably. I can't tell you precisely. I probably did see him.
20 But you know what sort of encounters this was. In passing, because I was
21 filming all the time going back and forth, left and right. I needed as
22 much time as I could to shoot as many frames as I was able to because I
23 was not a cameraman.
24 If I saw him, the encounter last for a couple of seconds. I don't
25 recall being with him in the same situation that I was with when I was
1 filming Mr. Borovcanin with the members of the UNPROFOR. I don't recall
2 ever being in such a scene with that individual whereas I do remember
3 these other scenes. I would probably also have filmed him.
4 That's why I'm thinking it's not possible for me to reproduce this to you
5 in an authentic manner. Indeed, the scene was such that this was
6 absolutely insignificant to me.
7 Q. Okay. You've answered that question. I'd like to show you
8 something now. It's an another short video clip. This is 2991. Again,
9 this is -- you'll see about the men on the balcony that you filmed. This
10 is something I'll tell you in advance that we created here by looking
11 at --
12 A. [In English] I understand.
13 Q. -- your Studio B film and the raw materials.
14 [Videotape played]
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. Okay. The --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. The Studio B footage on the clip 2991 was the one on the left --
20 A. Left.
21 Q. -- you could tell. The raw material which you kindly provided to
22 us was on the right. And you can see perhaps -- well, I won't need --
23 I'll ask you. Do you think -- what do you think was on that bit of film
24 now that you look at this?
25 A. You mean on the --
1 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
2 A. [Interpretation] You mean on the right-hand side. Well, this was
3 my first impression. If you follow the left footage where you see the
4 Studio B headline and you have the scroll with the running message, and if
5 you follow my voice as you hear it from the footage on the left-hand side,
6 and if you look at the case of the shell on the right-hand side, you
7 will see that it's a small portion of several seconds. Of course, what do
8 you think could have happened and -- in these couple of seconds that --
9 that would not have been on that other footage, because it was viewed by
10 28.000 people.
11 So of course you see that by the time it finishes on the left-hand
12 side I only finish my sentence. The raw material cannot be 100 per cent
13 reliable for me, for my purposes, unlike the purposes that you need it
14 for, because as I tell you, I did not have it all the time with me. The
15 left-hand footage shows you how short an interval this is. Could someone
16 have shot or killed someone in these five seconds in that interim? That
17 would have been nonsense. One would have known about it.
18 Q. That's not the question I was going to ask you or imply that
19 anybody was shot during that gap. My question is as follows: When you
20 look at those two pieces of footage, you start off seeing Mr. Borovcanin
21 talking to people. It pans the camera -- you panned over to the left and
22 you see a pile of belongings and a gate and a goat, and then on your raw
23 material we see the shell casing.
24 On the Studio B material we see the zoom-in shot of the men on the
25 balcony, and just for your information, I don't want to play the whole
1 tape again, but there is nowhere on the raw material where we have the
2 shot from Studio B. I hope what I said is clear. My question is having
3 seen that, do you think that the men on the balcony was taped over with
4 the film of the shell since after this clip they both come back together
5 with a shot of the base and the same man walking?
6 A. Well, you see, this is one of the moments that is missing from the
7 raw material and which was fortunately found when I provided the VHS tape
8 from Canada, which contains all the controversial portions on account of
9 which I had many problems in Serbia, because many people accused me of
10 having erased some much atrocious crimes. We cannot reliably ascertain,
11 and I'm not clairvoyant enough for that, to see what it was, but whatever
12 happened to that raw material, the only relevant original is this tape
13 because it contains all the portions that were believed to have been
14 hidden by me.
15 If you -- if you look at the camera that was used, it had such
16 poor facilities of zooming. Even if I held that frame for five seconds
17 longer, it was the same frame, you need to know that. It shows all those
18 people whom your experts later identified with sophisticated equipment.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. I never of course never paid any attention to that.
21 Q. I'll move on --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. NICHOLLS:
24 Q. Okay. I'll move on and move away from the men on the balcony.
25 Now, we've just looked at some footage from Potocari on the 13th,
1 and you've told us how you went there and filmed part of the DutchBat base
2 and that you got out of the car, walked around. We've seen the video.
3 Where did you go next after you and Mr. Borovcanin -- or where did you go
4 next after you left Potocari?
5 A. Since we were following the chronology of our movement, we -- and
6 went out into the field. As I said, the operations were ongoing. We set
7 out from Bratunac along the road to Tuzla -- or, rather, toward the
8 crossroads where the road forks off to Tuzla and Zvornik. Later on you
9 showed me what it was called, but for years I didn't know what the name of
10 the place was.
11 When I went back with the French TV crew there in 2006, I was
12 absolutely unable to recognise the place where the prisoners were, for
13 instance. It has all changed. Certain houses were destroyed at the time
14 but reconstructed now.
15 At any rate, we set out from the town along the road which had
16 occasionally been used by the columns of buses and trucks ferrying the
17 refugees to Tuzla. That was the part that we first filmed in our news
18 report. At that point we came across those anti-aircraft vehicles. Some
19 call it Praga, but that's not the calibre of the -- I don't think that was
20 the vehicle. That was the footage that I made.
21 What I want you to keep in mind is that the shooting was going on,
22 and something that is not widely known and Mr. Agius should be aware of
23 that, I made that bit of footage when my life was at risk, because we were
24 constantly under fire and that's why the driver was speeding in between
25 the stops that we made, because everybody is convinced -- everybody who is
1 in a war is that if you drive over 120 kilometres an hour that you would
2 survive or manage to avoid getting shot.
3 You have the footage today solely thanks to the fact that nobody
4 hit us at the time. Of course I'm referring to the fire from the Muslim
6 Q. Yes. And then --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. Thank you. And that -- let me show you a map, if we can, and see
10 if that helps you.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, I should have the e-court number, but it's
12 our map binder 211, map 6.
13 Q. This is a map of the area just to see if it helps you remember.
14 If you have any trouble seeing it on the screen, let me know and I'm let
15 you look at my copy.
16 Can you read the names of the places on there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. If you look right about the middle towards the right side
19 we've got Potocari, north to Bratunac, and then a road branching off going
20 through Kravica, Sandici, and up to Konjevic Polje. Take a look at this,
21 you describe the route. See if that helps you remember at all where were
22 you driving with Mr. Borovcanin that day after you left Potocari?
23 A. As far as I know that's the only road.
24 Q. Okay just to be clear the road between Bratunac and Konjevic
1 A. Yes. I never got to Konjevic Polje.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. As far as I remember. And do you know why? That place name was
4 already known for the first massacre against the Serbs committed by Oric
5 in 1993, in the wintertime of 1993. And if I had been there, I would have
6 filmed in Konjevic Polje. It was well-known back in our parts, if it
7 isn't in yours. As I look at the map I see what you refer to as Sandici.
8 I don't recall this junction.
9 Ahead of Konjevic Polje there is a junction forking off to Kasaba,
10 that's the road to Sarajevo. And to the right is the road to Zvornik and
11 on to Serbia. So that's roughly it.
12 Q. Okay. If you remember roughly where did this constant firing that
13 you experienced on this road start? I mean, how close to Bratunac? The
14 firing from the Muslim army.
15 A. I heard, but I can't be precise, beyond Bratunac. Several
16 kilometres beyond Bratunac towards Glogova. We were heading in the
17 direction of Zvornik, and the fire came from the right-hand side. You
18 could see the Kravica rivulet or a creek if I remember correctly. So to
19 the left of that, if we're heading towards Zvornik, to the left is that
20 rivulet and then the headland on the hills, and throughout the area there
21 was shooting. I recall us stopping from time to time because certain
22 sections of the road were unsafe because there was gunfire, and they were
23 unsafe for the buses to go through. The situation prevailed as such
24 throughout the day. This showed me that the Serbs did not achieve a
25 victory there since the Muslims continued fighting.
1 Q. Okay. Thanks.
2 A. And it was pretty soon that --
3 Q. Do you recall whether the convoys of buses and trucks with the
4 people you described as refugees on them were stopped at any time during
5 that day? The same time you were there when there was firing.
6 A. I remember that this was the case on -- on two or three occasions,
7 that there were two or three stops, perhaps half an hour. You know how it
8 is in time of war. There are certain zones that are dangerous, but they
9 cease to be dangerous as certain forces are pushed back, and the civilians
10 have to wait because they should not be exposed to fire. Of course, this
11 rule did not apply to me. We pressed on, under fire.
12 Q. Okay. I understand. Now, when you went back and said that you
13 couldn't find any of the places along this road, the famous footage you
14 shot of the front of what we call the Kravica warehouse of the bodies,
15 were you able to find that building with the French camera crew?
16 A. [In English] No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. [Interpretation] I don't recall that I could, because on the other
19 side -- well, you see, ten years later the landscape is quite different.
20 There are many new homes built. The old ones that were wrecked may have
21 been destroyed. At the time, there were many destroyed homes that had
22 been torched and demolished by Oric's men in 1993, and of course it is
23 impossible for one to speak with any reliability on that later on.
24 Besides, I only made several seconds worth of footage of that, two or
25 three seconds only.
1 Q. Okay. Last question before we -- we have to have a break for the
2 interpreters and to change tapes during this part of the trip you
3 described, if you remember, if you remember, were you alone with
4 Borovcanin in the car or was there a driver?
5 A. Yes. I believe the driver was there at the time.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. I don't think there's
7 anything that I can -- if we're going to stop at 3.45, I'd rather stop
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll have a 25-minute break starting from
11 Before we break, Mr. McCloskey, there is another motion from the
12 Miletic Defence team to have present their military advisor during the
13 testimony of Richard Butler. Do you have any objections? It's similar to
14 the Pandurevic motion.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the motion is granted for the same
17 reasons as explained before.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To avoid any confusion, I place at
21 everyone's disposal my papers here as in your warning before.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You can take them with you. No one has asked
23 for them as yet. We'll deal with that if there is a special ad hoc
24 request. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more are you --
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I think I'll finish in the next session. It has
7 taken me a little longer than I thought and I'll try to move it up.
8 Q. And I'll ask you, sir, if you can, to keep your answers as short
9 as you can while still answering the questions, just so that we don't keep
10 you longer than we have to.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record I notice the presence of Mr. Haynes
12 now in the courtroom.
13 MR. NICHOLLS:
14 Q. Okay. We were talking a little bit about -- I think you mentioned
15 the Pragas and the firing into the hills. I want to show you a clip from
16 2054. Not a clip, a segment. This is your raw material which you
17 provided to us, and the part I'm interested in - I didn't show this
18 earlier - is there is a black frame. There appears to be a little piece
19 missing in this sequence, and we're starting at 12:17:1.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. NICHOLLS:
22 Q. Thank you. And the blank space of a few seconds started at 12:41.
23 I'll just ask you, if you can, if you don't know, if you don't
24 remember that's okay, but do you know what -- why there's that gap there
25 on the raw material?
1 A. I did not see a gap.
2 Q. Well, where the screen goes black.
3 A. Again, the answer's the same. This is my universal answer for all
4 the situation of that kind in the raw material, because it's obvious that
5 you want to talk about the raw material more than the programme that I
6 actually aired. I really cannot give you any reasons. Especially here
7 you can see that the fire's being opened from a PAT [Realtime transcript
8 read in error "path"] onto a hill from which the Muslims are firing.
9 I really did not pay any attention to that. I didn't even pay
10 attention to the dialogue that went on. I did not pay attention to that
11 because I was filming. As for the things that they're saying I really --
12 what I'm saying is I was focused on the image. And as for the gap, I
13 really don't have any answer.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one small correction for the transcript.
16 It's on page 38, line 20. It does say "firing is being opened from a path
17 onto a hill" but this is not a word, pat. It should read "PAT" which
18 means in our language "anti-aircraft gun."
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I suppose you confirm this,
20 Mr. Petrovic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This is a military
23 JUDGE AGIUS: The transcript will be corrected accordingly.
24 MR. NICHOLLS:
25 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now play a short clip --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nicholls, please.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: My microphone is flashing. I don't know if --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. If we can now play a short clip of the same time from Studio B,
6 video 2011.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. We're at 8:36:2 and also to be precise we can see that the counter
10 on the original tape is at 16:48:00. That is what is on the screen of the
11 Studio B tape.
12 This part of the footage of your Studio B, you will have to take
13 my word for it without playing the entire tape, is not on your raw
14 material, and can you tell us, if you know, why this is gone, and I think
15 your answer -- if your answer's just the same, then that's fine.
16 A. The answer's the same. In the text I even made a mistake. I said
17 that these were Pragas, which I've simply misspoke. It's a slip of the
18 tongue. It was actually a PAT.
19 Q. We'll finish this clip.
20 [Videotape played]?
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop there. Thank you.
22 Q. Now, when you shot these bits we've seen of the PATs, as you call
23 them, firing into the hills, were you inside or outside of the car?
24 A. [In English] I am -- I am on side of -- [Interpretation] I was
25 next to the car, which is proven by the music that you can hear, something
1 that you can't possibly link with the situation of that story. The radio
2 was on in the car, and even in this dangerous situation, i.e., it would
3 have been normal for me to have a flak jacket like any American journalist
4 would have. An American journalist does not leave a car without a flak
5 jacket, and I didn't have one. They could have opened fire. I could have
6 been killed. That was a theoretical possibility.
7 As soon as we pulled over, I got out of the car on the right-hand
8 side. I was on the right-hand side in the back, and I was shooting from
9 there because I wanted to have as best shot as possible. That's why you
10 can hear this music coming from the car radio.
11 Q. All right. I want to show you one photo. This will only take a
12 second. It's 2986, the Road Book Exhibit, page 52. Photo B is the one
13 I'm interested in. This is a still photo from your raw video, sir.
14 All right. If you look at this photo for a second. Again, page
15 52, photo B we're looking at on the screen now. If you look at the
16 silver/grey car that's farther away from as you took this film, does that
17 spark your memory about anything?
18 A. I would say that this is possibly a Golf. There were a lot of
19 Golf cars in Yugoslavia at the time. As I'm looking at the photo, but it
20 doesn't remind me of anything. If you're implying I that might have
21 ridden in that car I really can't remember. It may have been that car,
22 but I don't know what car it was, really.
23 Q. Okay. That's fine. You made that very clear. Thank you. I want
24 to show you another bit of video now and ask you a question about it.
25 This is -- actually, first -- we can just play the video. That's fine.
1 This is from the raw video again, 2011. We're at 21:00:9.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. We stopped at 22:57:05.
4 Q. First of all --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. NICHOLLS:
7 Q. Thank you. First of all do you remember shooting this sequence?
8 Did it stick in your mind at all, these people surrendering out of the
10 A. They were coming from the woods, and then they were descending
11 towards the little river that showed to me on the map, and then they
12 surrendered, and then they came up to the road, to the house. As far as I
13 can remember, they passed by their house. That's where you get to the
14 road, and then from there you get to that meadow where I shot the
15 sequence. This is the sequence. I don't know what else you want to know.
16 When I'm watching this video again, yeah, it all comes back to me.
17 Q. The young man we see in the frame here, 22:57:5, which just for
18 the record is very similar to page 56, photo E of 2986, do you remember
19 what happened to him shortly after you filmed him on this day? Excuse me.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, did you see him and the other of this group of
13 boys get onto the bus that day which took them to Tuzla?
14 A. I remember that, because when the text was published in The Times
15 in 1998 I was shocked because my memory was still fresh. I repeat, I saw
16 him with a group of young men or children under the age of 18 more or less
17 entering a bus or entering the lorries, I don't know who got on where. In
18 any case, they got on the vehicles and ended up in Tuzla.
19 This was not the case of a successful escape owing to a body of
20 water or a well behind which he hid and then he went to Tuzla. This is a
22 But let me help you with something else if I may --
23 Q. No. Wait for the question, please, and if you need to add that
24 you can, if the Court permits me to say that.
25 At the time that this boy and the other boys were separated from
1 the older men as you've described it and put on a bus to take them to
2 Tuzla, who -- who, if anyone, made the order that that should happen, or
3 said that that should happen?
4 A. Who issued the order for them to get on the bus?
5 Q. Yeah.
6 A. As far as I can remember, Mr. Borovcanin, when we arrived there at
7 first saw that there were young men there who could not have been
8 soldiers, and as far as I can remember, he said immediately that the
9 transport of refugees should be stopped and that these boys should be sent
10 to Tuzla. It's very difficult for me to quote his very words, but that
11 was more or less what happened. That was the situation.
12 We arrived together, so he saw the same things that I saw myself.
13 Q. All right. Now, if you remember, did Mr. Borovcanin, after
14 deciding that these boys should be put on a bus and go to Tuzla, did he
15 stop the bus himself or did somebody else do that, if you can remember?
16 A. I can't remember. I don't know what I told you in the interview
17 in Belgrade, but in my view it is really not important. I know for a fact
18 that they were transported from that meadow in buses. I don't know
19 whether it was one of the guards. I suppose it was one of them, because
20 Borovcanin was observing the overall situation. There were people by the
21 road. I don't remember him stopping for any longer in that place. But if
22 you will allow me --
23 Q. Go ahead.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a short
14 while, please.
15 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. Now, without mentioning any names, please, Mr. Pirocanac,
13 you've -- you've told us about a different research you've done, and
14 you've checked into facts and you knew about the lists. Do you know what
15 happened to the other men on the meadow captured that day?
16 A. [In English] Really, this is not information that a journalist
17 could get in middle of operations.
18 Q. I mean now do you know?
19 A. No, even now.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Rumours that some of them were -- pardon. [Interpretation] I
22 apologise. I apologise once again. This was in 1995, and then rumours
23 about the events in Srebrenica spread. So I might have heard some whether
24 they were killed, but I did not get that officially. This would be
25 information -- information from the local international media.
1 I know about a man called Ramo, who is also used in the Panorama.
2 I shot him as well, and scene was very distressing. Somebody told me
3 about him. Maybe somebody from BBC, from that team, that this man had
4 been killed, and I remember him, and I remember having heard that.
5 Q. Okay. But now -- now -- this is my last question on the topic.
6 As you sit here today, having followed some of the trials in this Tribunal
7 and the information you all possess today, were men taken from that meadow
8 that you filmed and killed? Do you think that's -- based on all your
9 information is that right or is that still just a rumour?
10 A. While I was there, nobody moved from the place but the children
11 that got on the buses.
12 But can I ask you something in return, please?
13 Q. No, I'm afraid you can't. That's not part of the rules?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go into private session for one minute?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not up to me, Your Honours, but --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you are right. You're right.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: After court when this is all done you can ask me
19 anything you want.
20 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session.
10 MR. NICHOLLS:
11 Q. Now I want to move to a new topic. This is something you
12 discussed in your article and also in our interview. I'm moving up to
13 asking you questions about the -- the very dramatic footage you shot of
14 the dead bodies in front of that warehouse, but first I want you to tell
15 us what you recall, what you heard on that day, 13 July, about somebody
16 named Officer, that nickname. Tell us what you heard, briefly if you can,
17 what you heard and when you heard it.
18 A. In any case, this was during the period of time when we left
19 Bratunac and filmed everybody on the road, the group of detainees and the
20 rest. It was during that period of time. I can't tell you exactly when.
21 I was an external observer, I could see that something had happened, and
22 my final conclusion based on the information when we reached the hospital
23 where we went was that one fighter under the command of Mr. Borovcanin
24 whose nickname was Officer had been wounded, that he had jumped on
25 somebody who had weapons, and that his arms were hurt in that skirmish,
1 and that he had been urgently transported to the hospital in Bratunac.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you remember whom you heard this from?
3 A. I don't know. I suppose that there must have been a conversation
4 between Borovcanin and somebody who had told him that, or maybe he heard
5 it over the Motorola. My memory on that is very vague. The detail was
6 not important. I mean, it was important because the man got hurt, which
7 means that Serbs also suffered, not only Muslims, and they had problems as
8 well as the Muslims, but I don't know what the man's name was and what the
9 situation was, but I know that as soon as he got the news we headed
10 urgently towards Bratunac. And again fire was opened from the right-hand
11 side where I was, from where I was filming.
12 Q. Let me just clarify this. As soon as he got the news you just
13 said. I think I know who you're talking about, but as soon as who got the
14 news you headed to Bratunac?
15 A. I suppose Borovcanin, because he decided where to go, when to go
16 there. I followed him, not the other way round. He didn't follow me.
17 Q. Yeah. The -- again, I was just asking who you were talking about.
18 Now, at any time that day did you personally see this wounded man,
20 A. No. No, but I saw a Muslim who had been killed. You can see him
21 on the footage. He was coming out of the creek, and there was a dilemma
22 whether that was the place where the skirmish had taken place. But I -- I
23 don't know where the skirmish had taken place, but there was a dead Muslim
24 by the road. You can see it on the footage. I don't remember ever having
25 seen this man in my whole life, but I'm sure I did not see him at the
2 Q. Okay. If you remember, in relation to the footage you shot, we
3 call it the Kravica warehouse, that's what we call the part where you
4 filmed the dead bodies lying in front, was the information about Officer
5 before you shot that film, when you shot that film, or after you shot that
6 film, as best you remember?
7 A. I can't tell you with any certainty really. In the entire
8 material I produced, this wasn't an event that stuck in my mind. I worked
9 actively throughout the war.
10 Q. But it is in your article; correct? Do you remember that?
11 Now, at the hospital -- first let me ask you this: We had in the
12 transcript that his arms were wounded. Do you remember if it was his
13 hands or his arms that Officer -- or Officer had the injury?
14 A. I think the story was that his arms or hands were wounded. Now,
15 whether somebody took the weapons off him. At any rate, he was in poor
16 condition since he had to be transported into the hospital as a matter of
18 Q. Now, if you -- at the hospital did Mr. Borovcanin go inside the
19 hospital to visit Officer?
20 A. I think that's the way it went. I believe I remember this
21 correctly. I remained outside the health centre. There was no need for
22 me to go into the hospital. What would I do there? The man underwent
23 urgent treatment. He probably went in to see what the condition of this
24 individual was. I stayed outside, but I don't recall this that well,
25 although I recorded it in the text. So I suppose that things happened the
1 way I described them in the text.
2 Q. Would it help you if I read you just a short part from your text?
3 A. Please go ahead.
4 Q. This is on page 5 of 469, last full paragraph. Page 5 of the
5 English. "At the moment of his surrender at the corner of a building a
6 Muslim soldier suddenly jumped on a Serbian combatant, snatched his rifle
7 and riddled him with a burst of fire. Officer, one of Ljubisa's special
8 forces members jumped on him, knocked him down, he was himself lightly
9 wounded in the wrestling. Officer is one of the hopes of Borovcanin's
10 formations, so the commander goes immediately to the medical centre in
11 Bratunac where Officer is having his wounds dressed."
12 Now, having that read to you and hopefully refreshing your memory,
13 do you think what you wrote then was basically accurate or are there any
15 A. I heard this from the people over there. I don't that they talked
16 nonsense. This wasn't the sort of situation where you would tell cock and
17 bull stories. Now, the way I described Officer as the hope of their
18 forces, well, that's the sort of thing that you would hear over the NBC
19 about your boys waging a war over there in Iraq and that's how I felt
20 toward them. They were my people. You know the news reports about the
21 fighting going on in Iraq and about how they're bringing democracy over
23 Q. Right. What I would like to do now is to go right to the clip
24 from this Studio B footage, which was recovered of -- of the front of the
25 Kravica warehouse, and we'll play it first -- it will play first at normal
1 speed and then we'll watch it in slow motion like I think we did during
2 our interview.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. Sorry. We're stopped at --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. NICHOLLS:
8 Q. We stopped at 2:56:07:1. The words on the screen of the -- not on
9 the -- well, in transcript says "Hello. How are you? What's up?" Do you
10 know where we are? Where was this video taken?
11 A. Yes. This was the road from Bratunac towards Srebrenica. You can
12 see the individuals are coming down from up there with horses. It seems
13 like a scene back from medieval times. Of course, this road was safe, and
14 that was the second day of my stay there, the morning hours, if I remember
16 Q. Okay. Now let's keep playing, please.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. All right. Now I'd like to -- just so you can get a better view
20 because it is quite short, I'd like you to see it in slow motion.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. Thank you. Now, a couple of questions.
24 A. [In English] Pardon.
25 Q. When you drive past the warehouse and you shoot that footage, who
1 is in the car? Is the driver there or is it just you and Mr. Borovcanin?
2 A. Since this was on our way back to Bratunac, there was three of us
3 together there, if I remember correctly.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. I would say that there was still the same group of people as
7 Q. Now, we see that drive-by shot. Did you -- did the car stop? Did
8 Mr. Borovcanin tell the car to pull over and stop or did you continue?
9 A. I don't recall anything of the sort. The footage that you have
10 was made while the car was moving. So there's not even any indication
11 of -- it's a short sequence that was shot by chance. I was sitting on the
12 right seat, and I had my camera at the ready, just as any soldier would
13 have his rifle at the ready.
14 I made some footage, but on our way back to Bratunac I didn't make
15 that much footage as before. I'm telling you again there was gunfire, and
16 as we were going back the fire was coming from the right-hand side, and
17 because of the fire I wasn't able to make much footage.
18 Q. Right-hand side, that's the same side as the warehouse, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And when you say the fire was coming, do you mean fire by the Serb
21 units at that part of the road, or do you mean Muslim fire or you don't
23 A. There were several different types of fire. Muslims were firing
24 over Serbs from the Recica, and then Serbs were firing upon Muslims, and
25 then Muslims were firing upon the Muslims who were surrendering, and then
1 they were firing upon us, I guess. And there was occasional fierce
2 gunfire. Judging by the sound of it, I would say that it came from the
3 hills up there across from the rivulet, although there was some fire on
4 the other side, from the Serbia side, as you were able to see that PAT.
5 This was the combat zone and the fighting was ongoing.
6 Q. Okay. The gunfire we hear on that clip, where do you think that
7 gunfire is coming from? The loud fire we hear as you're driving past the
9 A. I can't assess that. The camera recorded briefly that gunfire --
10 some 20 minutes later maybe there was more gunfire that wasn't recorded.
11 So not even a military expert would be able to tell you that easily.
12 Q. Okay. When you see on that clip, and we can play it again if we
13 need to, the soldier walking in front of the warehouse just passed the
14 pile of dead bodies kind of holding his hand up to the car as it goes by,
15 do you think he was acting as though he was under fire from somebody or do
16 you not think that? What do you think about that?
17 A. That's the cutting-edge technology and the miracles it produces.
18 As I was filming, I didn't even notice the individual. It was only your
19 footage in slow motion and in some other techniques that I realised that
20 it was a soldier showing a thumb up, I believe. In some previous frames
21 there's another individual yet -- yet, and I noticed that he didn't have
22 any insignia on his arm. That's just a small detail.
23 I noticed only once I saw your footage. You have to know that the
24 material that I shot is -- has no worth in professional terms, only in
25 historical terms. Even in the earlier raw footage, you saw several frames
1 that are unconnected, and I don't think you would be able to, you know,
2 present them even in the junior years of studies for editing.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. So that's what I was able to see as we were driving past in the
5 vehicle and, no, we did not stop.
6 Q. Now, did Mr. Borovcanin ever try to censor what you were filming
7 or tell you to film this, don't film that, or were you completely
8 freelance independent in what you took video of?
9 A. Now we're coming to what I wanted to ask you. Do you think that
10 anyone -- anyone who is in their right mind would allow a journalist to
11 film war crimes and to leave him alive? Do you think it's -- it would be
12 a normal thing for me to sit here, as I do sit today, had this indeed
14 Did you ever see, and let's refer to this most recent war in Iraq,
15 did you ever see anyone film anything from 2003 onwards, anything of the
16 sort? Did you ever see a journalist, especially an embedded one, film
17 anything of the sort? So why should this army react differently? All the
18 rules of the military are the same.
19 He permitted me to work, and I didn't have any reason to tell the
20 untruths. And that was reason enough for this individual to let me film
21 this. Perhaps some others would not have allowed me to. It was down to
22 mutual respect.
23 Q. Okay. I understand your answer, I think. Now, just let me
24 clarify. You used the term "war crime," "filming a war crime." In your
25 mind, since you used that term, were you filming a war crime in front of
1 the Kravica warehouse that day?
2 A. On the basis of the two or three seconds worth of footage of what
3 I was able to film as the car was driving past a building, well of course
4 it's not a normal situation to see some 20-odd -- I don't know if you were
5 able to define the number as you zoomed in, but I believe that the number
6 was roughly that. I wasn't able to give it much thought at that point. I
7 gave it much more thought later on. This was one of the frames for my
8 news report, and I could not give in to my feelings.
9 I had to stay alive, go back to Belgrade to Studio B to edit the
10 film and to do -- and to make my report, thanks to which you actually have
11 the material you have now. I'm not superman, you know.
12 Q. Thank you. And there was no criticism there.
13 A. I did not take it as criticism.
14 Q. What I'm asking is just because you use the term "war crime," not
15 talking at that instant that you were filming these dead bodies and these
16 people, but now as you sit here when you use the word "war crime," are you
17 talking about what you filmed there? Are you saying you filmed a war
18 crime or not?
19 A. Based on what we know from the theory that resembles a war crime,
20 but it took place during the operations. I don't know. If I had been the
21 commander there, this would have ended differently.
22 Q. Okay. Now, as best you recall, where did you go after -- since
23 you say you didn't stop, where did you go -- only -- let me ask this. I'm
24 sorry. Did you ask Mr. Borovcanin if you could stop so you could keep
25 filming what was going on there since he wasn't going to censor you?
1 A. I don't recall putting any such questions. The reason why we
2 passed that way at that point in time was that we were on our way to the
3 health centre in Bratunac. To him that was -- I don't know. We never
4 spoke of that event. I don't recall us speaking about this event. I know
5 that the primary reason for our going to Bratunac was this whole story
6 involving Officer that we referred to, and I can't remember anything more
7 than that.
8 Q. Okay. After you saw this pile of bodies that you filmed, what did
9 you say, if anything, to Mr. Borovcanin about what you had just captured,
10 luckily, on your camera?
11 A. Do you mean something I said, something that was recorded and
12 something that I cannot recall at this time? I don't know what you're
13 referring to.
14 Q. It's always if you can recall it. If you recall, was there any
15 conversation about what you had just seen as you drove towards Bratunac
16 health centre?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe it's too late but I believe it was asked and
20 answered. "We never spoke of that event," on page 56, line 17.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right.
22 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: My friend's correct. That went past me. I'm
25 Q. Now, let me ask you this: Why did you never speak about that with
1 Mr. Borovcanin? Why didn't you ever say anything about it? There any
2 particular reason not to talk about it?
3 A. No. You see, we're talking about it post festum. Do you know
4 what an ongoing operation means as a term? It means that there's a war on
5 and that there is fighting. That sort of conversation is something you
6 normally have once everything is finished, and then you analyse these
7 events in headquarters, or you retell anecdotes from the war times. There
8 were so many events at the time, and for me, as far as I can remember at
9 the time the most important thing was that as a journalist I was a sitting
10 duck, and it was only natural that I should think about getting out of
11 there alive rather than making conversation.
12 It may -- it may mean a bit callous to you, but war is a perverse
13 and terrible thing. Anyone will tell you upon seeing dead bodies that
14 it's unpleasant, horrific, and unacceptable. I hope we -- our opinions
15 don't differ in that.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, sorry to interrupt you, but in order to
17 be clear, I might have missed some part, but could you clarify with the
18 witness whether he noticed the pile of bodies when shooting a scene
19 separate from shooting.
20 MR. NICHOLLS:
21 Q. You can answer the question, Witness.
22 A. This sequence is only two or three minute -- seconds long. When
23 I'm thinking about it now, I would be watching this through the camera's
24 eyes and seeing that, but, Your Honour, it's quite different when you're
25 looking at it in slow motion. You have to be aware of the speed as was
1 registered at the time. It was very fast. It was just the flick of your
2 finger, and after that we had other scenes. And this entire road to
3 Bratunac was quite unsafe. I repeat, there was fire from the Muslim and
4 the Serb side. There were Muslims firing upon the Muslims who were
5 surrendering themselves. It was a total mess, a madhouse.
6 JUDGE KWON: I think my question was rather simple, whether you
7 remember seeing the bodies at the time.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't give it thought, not this
9 way. Yes, I saw it in two seconds, and I had to register that as I was
10 watching it through the camera's lens, but it was only two seconds long.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 MR. NICHOLLS:
13 Q. Let me just ask you this -- no, strike that.
14 Where did you go -- where did you spend the night, the 13th, after
15 the -- the day we're talking about, the video we've just been talking
17 A. In the apartment in which Mr. Borovcanin stayed in Bratunac,
18 somewhere in the centre, I wouldn't be able to tell you the street or the
19 building now, but it's one of those social-realist buildings as we termed
20 them. It had several storeys, but at any rate, it was at his place. It
21 was his-- it was the apartment where he formally stayed at the time. I
22 don't know if it was his.
23 Q. Do you recall from our interview, and I showed what you
24 Mr. Borovcanin said about the issue of whether you and he stopped the car
25 at the Kravica warehouse at the time of the killings, or at the time you
1 filmed those bodies?
2 A. I am guided by my memory there. I think he was mistaken there.
3 There was no censorship. I filmed this as everything else. Had the
4 situation been different, had we pulled over, I would have filmed it.
5 That's what I wanted to say. And those would have been the most powerful
6 images of all the ones that I made, because I only have three dead in
7 downtown Srebrenica, and those Muslims that had gathered -- that one
8 Muslim that was among the Muslims that had gathered in the meadow. So I
9 had four dead bodies. And of course this would have been interesting.
10 Had this pulled over, the situation would have been different.
11 Q. Now, when you were at -- when you were with Mr. Borovcanin that
12 evening back at Bratunac, did you talk about any of what you had seen that
13 day, what you'd filmed, Potocari, the buses, the PATs, the surrender,
14 anything, any of the events that you watched.
15 A. I can rely on the text of the interview more than on my direct
16 memory. I must have been tired and stressed out from the events of the
17 day. If you look at my text, it's important also because through my
18 various sources of information I managed to get the picture of the events
19 as they took place on the 11th as the Serbs entered Srebrenica. So some
20 of these things, I can't really tell you which out of the final version of
21 the text, but some of these things I asked him to explain to me in
22 strictly military terms. That's also very interesting. It's like
23 watching a movie, how an operation unfolds.
24 I know that this is something that the readers want to know, and
25 that was the only description at the time in all the media, domestic and
1 international, such a detailed one. What confused me at the time was how
2 was it that 1.800 Serbs could overwhelm 10.000 armed Muslims, although
3 armed poorly, admittedly, but every rifle kills. How come they didn't put
4 up any more resistance?
5 In the Sarajevo press nowadays we have the response from one of
6 the colonels from Srebrenica as to why the events unfolded this way.
7 Q. Okay. So what you discussed - I'm just trying to get back to my
8 question - was about the way the operation unfolded. That's what you
9 discussed back in Bratunac.
10 A. That night I learnt some of the information from the text from
11 him. I can't tell you what I got from him, what I got later on in
12 Belgrade. What I can say is that the bare bones of the text was something
13 that I got from him, you know, how the Serbs attacked, from which side,
14 and then how the Muslims went about defending themselves.
15 Q. All right. You've already said that you didn't discuss the -- the
16 bodies and the people in front of the Kravica warehouse, the clip we've
17 seen, and it's because you do that after the combat's over or something,
18 but can you -- since you said these are the most powerful images you'd
19 ever filmed, can you tell me why neither of you mentioned them?
20 A. I didn't fully understand your last sentence. Why I didn't
21 mention this?
22 Q. To Mr. Borovcanin when you were with him in Bratunac on the 13th
23 at night.
24 A. The fact that they were the most powerful images is something that
25 I'm ascertaining only now with you in December of 2007. You have to know
1 that behind me there is 20 years of war reporting. I can't tell you why I
2 didn't talk about these things with him. I was allowed to make this
3 programme, and this was proof of our mutual respect.
4 Now, of course you'll agree that I could have, you know, edited
5 the scene where the two of us were there. Why didn't I include this?
6 Well, he may have said, "Why did you film this, film that?" But I did the
7 editing myself, and you have everything there. You have everything there
8 also thanks to Mr. Borovcanin. And I believe that it's only proper and
9 honest to say that clearly.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. As far as I know, he was physically and mentally in good health.
12 Otherwise, only a madman would work against himself to his own detriment
13 to film something if you know that your own lot are planning to kill
14 somebody or do something improper. This is something I think is only
15 proper of me to tell you. I think it's a rare thing that somebody would
16 allow you to do something like that even in the US army.
17 Q. Okay. Have you seen the Skorpions execution video?
18 A. Yes. This was the footage that was even ascribed to me back in
19 Belgrade. That's what I wanted to tell you also. Ruez's testimony went
20 as far as to indicating I was one of the authors, and it was also said I
21 was given large sums of money to sell this to Madam Kandic but that was
22 the first time I heard of this whole group, and it's nothing to do with
23 the army or the police. Knowing the police brigade, these guys would have
24 been arrested by them had they been seen anywhere.
25 Q. Well, from seeing that clip, did it appear to you that the men in
1 that video had any problem filming what they were doing just before
3 A. [In English] Just before killed?
4 Q. The men in that film. That wasn't by a passing journalist. Did
5 they have any problem filming what they were doing in the way that you saw
7 A. [Interpretation] I apologise, but I didn't understand you again.
8 Can you take it more slowly?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Lazarevic.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm just not quite sure, it's not an objection,
11 but I just like to know whether my colleague is referring to the Skorpion
12 films or -- because basically if this is the situation that he's calling
13 for speculation. What could this witness --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I think I know where Mr. Nicholls is
15 getting to, so let's proceed. But you need to rephrase your question in a
16 way that is more intelligible.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah. I'll try, Your Honour.
18 Q. The Skorpions -- the video of the Skorpion units which was shown
19 in the trial in Belgrade which shows them murdering Muslims, that's the
20 video I'm talking about. Do you understand?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you seen that video?
23 A. Yes, many times. The media flagellated the general public with
24 that general footage for days.
25 Q. You said nobody would be crazy enough or words to that effect to
1 allow the filming of a war crime. What about the men in that video? Is
2 that -- what does that --
3 A. These men, as far -- I will tell you clearly.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, Your Honours, I believe that my learned
5 colleague is making quite unfortunate comparisons between these two
7 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to -- perhaps.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will not make this discussion in front of the
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe he's contrasting --
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Of course I will respect that --
12 MR. NICHOLLS: In fact, Your Honour, I'll just move on.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.
14 MR. NICHOLLS:
15 Q. I want to ask you something about something else now, and it's
16 something -- do you remember when you were -- did you go for a walk in
17 Bratunac while you were there those days?
18 A. Yes, in the very centre of Bratunac. The main street, yes.
19 Q. And was that with Mr. Borovcanin or by yourself, or who was with
21 A. I've already told you that I had to be with him literally for fear
22 of being arrested by the military, because the journalists were still not
23 allowed to come in. The operation was still going on.
24 I had an occasion to be in the very centre on my own for a while.
25 Maybe somebody followed me from afar, but I don't know. I mean, it was a
1 war situation.
2 The place is small. A lot of people must have known that I was a
3 journalist, and a lot of people knew me. Not only in Bratunac but in
4 Yugoslavia. I was a popular journalist. So I really can't tell you how
5 much time I spent on my own, but I was in the centre of Bratunac on my own
6 without him.
7 Q. Okay. Now, did you hear anything about the stadium during that
9 A. I started hearing story about the stadium when I returned to
10 Belgrade, only then. And about the alleged school where some thousand or
11 I don't know how many people were allegedly killed. And on that
12 particular day, a heard a very important thing about the stadium, i.e., I
13 noticed the mood of the local population. There were very few Serb troops
14 as far as I can remember. Most of them had left the day before in the
15 direction of Zepa.
16 A lot of prisoners arrived. The population, as far as I can
17 remember, was rather concerned, actually terrified, that they might break
18 out from the stadium which would result in major problems. This is the
19 situation that they feared. I believe that I wrote it down at the moment.
20 I must have said it later on somewhere, but I don't remember.
21 Q. Now --
22 A. It was only when I returned to Belgrade on the 21st of July, and I
23 have the paper in front of me, that's why I have it, this is my old note
24 which says "Independent, Peter Block, wrote a text under the title -- this
25 was published on the 21st of July." At the time he was much freer in
1 Bratunac than I was, which sounds rather perverse because he was an
3 I would really like to know who gave him that permit to walk
4 around freely while I was threatened that I would be arrested. And he is
5 the man who launched the first stories about mass crimes in the same way
6 somebody launched the story about the camps in Bosnia two years before.
7 That was him.
8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Are you sure you didn't hear -- well,
9 first of all, who are the people in Bratunac afraid who's going to break
10 out of the stadium?
11 A. They were afraid of the imprisoned Muslims because their numbers
12 by far surpassed the number of armed Serbs in the town. It's not a town.
13 It's a little town. A "La Bour" [phoen], as the French would put it. I
14 remember that fear in common people.
15 Q. And I just want to be clear, and we can go to your statement if
16 you need help to remember. That fear that you noticed in the common
17 people, did you notice that while you were walking around Bratunac that
19 A. [In English] That night.
20 Q. Yeah.
21 A. Night I was in -- [Interpretation] That night I was in the
22 apartment. I didn't walk around and about the town close to the war
23 operations, but I walked about during the day, and I saw a lot of death
24 notes which is something you don't have in the West. Those are notices of
25 people's deaths.
1 That was on the 14th, and I could see that a lot of those people
2 were Serbs who had been killed, and you have that recorded in my text.
3 Q. Okay. Are you --
4 A. And you could see those notifications of death on the tree trunks,
5 on the -- on the shop doors. This is something that is not very often
7 Q. Let me ask you if you're sure --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Nicholls, please, the microphone.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. Let me ask you if you're sure about the date 13th or 14th that you
11 took this walk. Before I -- I'll just say this --
12 A. This was in the day late. This was during the day.
13 Q. Okay. What -- during the day. Was it on the -- daylight. Was it
14 on the 13th or the 14th that you took this walk around Bratunac and then
15 experienced this fear that the people had about prisoners breaking out of
16 the stadium?
17 A. Let me take you back a little. On the 13th we were filming at
18 around 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon. I believe that this was on the
19 14th, either before or after going to Srebrenica, that part that I filmed.
20 In other words, I don't remember having walked around Bratunac on day one
21 but, rather, on day two. I'm trying to reconstruct the time. On the
22 first day I arrived there at half past 3.00 in the afternoon and went on
23 filming for the rest of the day. So this could have only been on the 14th
24 before going to Srebrenica or after the return from Srebrenica, because on
25 that day I didn't film anything else but Srebrenica.
1 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: You went directly from, you said,
2 seeing the bodies in front of the Kravica warehouse and filming that bit
3 of film to the hospital and Bratunac health centre. After that did you go
4 out in the field again that day or did you stay in Bratunac?
5 A. As far as I can remember we did not go anywhere outside Bratunac
6 after that. It would have been pointless, because it was already dark.
7 The operations were under way. What could I have possibly filmed with
8 that little camera of mine? I could have only gotten killed.
9 Q. Now, I'm just asking this because in your statement you had some
10 confusion about this date. I'm asking you why you are sure now that it's
11 the 13th. And I can point you to the part of your statement if you like.
12 A. Because you forced me to think all these months, to try and
13 remember, to try and recall the things that I tried to suppress before
14 that. But as I am trying to remember the schedule of that day, it seems
15 more logical to me. I -- that sounds more plausible, but I can't be a
16 hundred per cent sure, nor do I think that this would have had any impact
17 on the events that I happened to witness.
18 Q. Okay. I'm not worried about the date at the moment, but while
19 you're on Bratunac on the 13th or 14th, if you remember the date, great,
20 but if you don't, that's no problem.
21 Do you remember seeing a truck that drove through town and that
22 stuck out in your mind what you saw going on with this truck?
23 A. Yes. That's one of the more powerful scenes.
24 A truck went through the centre of town. I believe it was a FAP,
25 a Priboj-made vehicle, a locally made vehicle, and I think that the
1 bodies, the corpses were on the truck. I saw it from the street, on the
2 pavement. I was standing by a shop. I can't exactly remember where. And
3 it went in some direction. I don't know where. It came from a direction
4 unknown to me and proceeded driving in an unknown direction in the middle
5 of the day. I remember that because I combined that with the impression
6 of all these notifications of death on the trees and on the shops.
7 As I was passing by, I could see them, and they were all Serbs,
8 mostly young men, and those two were combined in my mind somehow.
9 Q. So in your mind what was the ethnicity, just to be very clear, of
10 the corpses on the truck, if you formed any belief about that at the
12 A. We can only conclude that they were Muslims. There was no
13 inscription on their bodies indicating their ethnicity. It was a very
14 short moment when that truck passed by. I could see the bodies. I don't
15 know how many. They were visible. Maybe they were even covered, but one
16 could see the body parts, military boots.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me ask you something else now going about
18 these two days. I'm speaking about Milan Lukic. Did you ever see Milan
19 Lukic during those two days? Did you personally see him at all during
20 those two days, 13th or 14th July, that you were in this area?
21 A. When I returned to Belgrade, I was having breakfast in a
22 restaurant. There were several police officers there with Borovcanin.
23 There may have even been some army members. I don't remember. And as far
24 as my memory serves me, one of them was this guy Lukic. And that's how he
25 made it into the text. But Lukic is also a very common family name, so I
1 really don't know. I don't know this name, this person Lukic. I don't
2 know who he is.
3 Q. Make sure we're talking about the same Milan Lukic. I'm talking
4 about the Milan Lukic who's been indicted.
5 A. I don't think it was the same Lukic. In any case, whatever Lukic
6 it may have been I don't know them. If you have any specific Lukic in
7 mind you're probably referring to the guy who tried to escape and flee to
8 Argentina or something.
9 Q. That's the man I'm talking about. Did you see him on the 13th of
10 July or 14th of July at all?
11 A. Maybe in that restaurant I'm telling you. I don't know whether
12 that was the same guy, Lukic. I don't know whether that was Milan Lukic
13 or just somebody called Lukic something. Because, you know, Milan Lukic
14 was not a member of Borovcanin units. As far as I know. That's what I
15 know. He hails from a different region. He -- I think he is from
16 Visegrad. I don't know. This is Srebrenica, and he didn't have anything
17 to do with Srebrenica.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I'm just thinking professionally on my feet.
20 Q. Okay. Now, approximately --
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm coming to the end, Your Honours.
22 Q. Approximately what time did you retire or -- or when did you go to
23 sleep that night at Mr. Borovcanin's apartment?
24 A. [In English] Before -- [Interpretation] Before I went home?
25 Q. The first night, 13th.
1 A. That part story is totally unreliable. That was after the
2 filming, so I really can't tell you when I went to bed, when I got up. I
3 really can't, honestly. And for a journalist, this is so not important.
4 Q. That's fine. You -- if you don't remember that, that's fine.
5 That night, the 13th, the day we're talking about when you went to
6 Potocari and then went up and down the road to Konjevic Polje, did you
7 review the videotape? Did you watch it that night to see what you'd
8 filmed that day?
9 A. Maybe it will be logical, probably, although I don't remember it.
10 You actually don't watch your own material until it's all finished. I
11 don't have that reflex. When you're with a team, it is the editors who
12 watch the material together with the journalist, but those are daily
13 reports, and this is something that you keep on doing, doing, and then
14 when you get home at the end of the filming session you do the editing.
15 I might a looked at it or maybe not. I don't know. In any case,
16 even if I had it didn't seem important at the time. I don't know. I
17 don't think so.
18 Q. All right. I think know the next, and I take it - I don't think my
19 friend will object - you don't recall whether Mr. Borovcanin watched it or
20 not either?
21 A. No. No. He was really not interested in controlling anything.
22 Let me repeat there. It was not his concern on that day. The operation
23 was under way. His people were being killed. The troops were being
24 killed. The children from the region were being killed, and he hailed
25 from that region. And it must -- could not have been easy for him looking
1 at all these notifications of death. He knew I was a professional and he
2 allowed me in and he let me do my job. Why would he have had to watch
3 that? I'm just telling you very --
4 Q. Yeah. Some of these questions, if you want to, you can explain,
5 but you can also just answer them yes or no if you feel it's adequate.
6 Now, you said Mr. Borovcanin's troops were being killed that day,
7 his -- or the troops were being killed. Did you hear from Mr. Borovcanin
8 how many of his men had been killed that day? Did he tell you that? You
9 already talked about the man with the hands being injured and --
10 A. I don't remember that. The only reliable scene is the scene that
11 I observed in the centre. On the stores and on the tree trunks. At the
12 end of the day if somebody is killed, it doesn't really matter whether he
13 was a policeman or a soldier. They were all from Republika Srpska. They
14 all were young, and it is never a pleasant sight for any -- for any army,
15 especially if you know people. It must be causing one a lot of stress to
16 observe all that.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go through the rest of your testimony if we
18 can a little more quickly. What I want to know is the next day, the 14th
19 of July, where you went with Mr. Borovcanin. Just best you remember. You
20 don't need to go into detail everywhere, but just the route that you took
21 and whether or not it was just the two of you or whether the driver came
22 with you on the second day.
23 A. On the second day there was a driver, and there was Srebrenica,
24 which was the hot subject. We wanted to know what this Srebrenica really
25 was, because it had been written so much about in the media. And this was
1 the ultimate success of my reporting. I found a way to go there with
2 Ljubisa. The event was to follow the minister of police and this is the
3 situation where you a journalist can do the most, to be together with the
4 person who is well-known, to be with them, to observe, to film. I was
5 concentrated on Srebrenica and its surroundings, the area of what is known
6 as Zeleni Jadar.
7 Q. Thank you for that. Do you remember the name of the minister of
8 the interior, the minister of the police?
9 A. Tomo Lukac. Tomislav Tomo Lukac.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. He's a very well-known person. I apologise. Maybe he wasn't
12 Tomislav, but he certainly was Tomo.
13 Q. Okay. What about -- have you heard of Tomo Kovac?
14 A. I know who he is and I do know him from before. For example, I
15 saw him at the beginning of the war with the French television TF1 in the
16 area where he was the chief of the police in the suburbs of Sarajevo.
17 Just like the others, he knew of me, because I appeared on TV, in various
18 newspapers, and everybody knew who I was.
19 Q. All right. Now, very briefly, and again I remind you that the
20 Trial Chamber watched your entire raw footage which you kindly provided to
21 us over the last couple days, and they watched all of the film that you
22 shot on the 14th of July in Srebrenica, and some of that's very quiet, and
23 you're interviewing returning Serbs, and you film the dog, the little
24 puppy next to the bodies.
25 During that part were you with Mr. Borovcanin or were you able to
1 walk around alone a bit?
2 A. I was free to walk around. This is the main street in Srebrenica.
3 You shoot on the left, on the right, and this is at the top of the
4 street, if I can remember the scene well. It's a very distressing scene,
5 two or three dead bodies, and the little puppy next to them in absolute
6 silence. This is very close to the department store that had burnt down
7 much earlier, not in that operation itself. And this is an area of some
8 200 metres that I moved along on the main road, and there was no need for
9 anybody to escort me. The town was deserted. The Serbs were returning.
10 I was interviewing them. Nobody had to escort me. Even Martin Bell or
11 Christiane Amanpour. They don't have to be supervised once they're let
12 into a place. The situation was the same.
13 Q. I can understand that and just as if I understand then after
14 you've done that footage looking at your video you join up with
15 Mr. Borovcanin's driver again and head to Zeleni Jadar; is that correct?
16 A. We were following the minister who was touring the area. There
17 were a lot of those devastated houses. We went to the factory. It was a
18 timber factory which was completely destroyed. You may have seen it on
19 the footage. And he asked everybody with organising normal life to return
20 everything into the normalcy. I was filming. Nobody said, "Don't film."
21 Q. I'd like to look at 2986, page 65, please. Well, 64 and 65.
22 That's a scene from your video, sir. Just because you mentioned
23 the vicinity of the department store where you were filming in Srebrenica.
24 Is -- is --
25 A. That's right in front us, the big building that you can see, as
1 far as I can remember.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, just not too much more, but if we
4 take the break in five minutes I'd prefer to take it now and then I'll
5 finish up quite soon.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we take the break, we would like to see
7 again, watch again the part of the video where the pile of bodies are
8 shown, and we would like to start for a little bit before and continue a
9 little bit afterwards.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. Would you like to do that now, Your Honour?
11 We can do it right now.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We might as well do it right now and then we'll have
13 the break.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. Well, then this will be the Studio B
15 documentary, 2011.
16 JUDGE KWON: Not the slow motion.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And we want it with sound. That's very important.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay, Judge. Your Honours I think this will get us
20 there quite soon. I'll start playing at 17:16:5, if I'm right.
21 [Videotape played]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We've seen what we wanted to see. Thank you.
23 We'll have a 25-minute break now.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.42 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
3 Q. Sir, getting toward the end of my questions. Excuse me. What I'd
4 like to do is now have you tell us briefly, you've talked about going to
5 Srebrenica where you are on your own for a bit and we know from the video
6 Zeleni Jadar, with Mr. Borovcanin you filmed the walk around the destroyed
7 factory, and then in the video we see that you're heading back through
8 Srebrenica, Potocari, towards Bratunac. If you can tell us briefly how
9 that day ends for you, the second day. What you do once you get back to
10 Bratunac with Mr. Borovcanin?
11 A. I didn't move out of the very centre of town, out of the flat, and
12 perhaps I might have taken a wall -- a walk. I really don't recall the
13 area. Must be something psychological about knowing that you've done your
14 entire news report, that you fleshed it out. Then there are moments when,
15 in terms of energy you have a complete low, and I don't think that I had
16 any wish or moved any -- any further than the centre of town that I
17 referred to earlier.
18 Q. Okay. Now, from when you get back to Bratunac with
19 Mr. Borovcanin, if you remember, until that night, whatever time it is
20 when you go to sleep in the apartment, are you with Mr. Borovcanin or are
21 you by yourself at some times?
22 A. I think that at night he was with me in the flat. That's how I
23 recall the events.
24 Q. Okay. And from the time you actually get back to Bratunac in the
25 car to the time at night when you're together in the flat, are you
1 together during that period? If you remember. If you don't remember, I'm
2 fault going to press you on it, just what you remember.
3 A. There isn't a specific event that would allow me to orientate
4 myself. We spent the bulk of the day up there, and it must have been
5 getting dark by that time. You have to remember that I couldn't be on the
6 move all the time. The operations were ongoing and the warning was issued
7 to the journalists from Serbia and from everywhere else except for Peter
8 Block that the area was off limits to them. The British colleague, the
9 English colleague, obviously had somebody backing him who was more
10 important than Mr. Borovcanin and allowed him to get in.
11 Q. Okay. I won't lead here if I get an objection, but my
12 understanding is that the next day in the morning of the 15th you leave
13 and go back to Serbia; is that right?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And about what time do you leave Bratunac and go --
16 A. That morning, during breakfast. I had to leave as soon as possible for
17 editing, you see. I had to get there as soon as possible because one of the
18 first newscasts would already announce that this important news report would
19 be broadcast, and I think it's 200 kilometres away from Belgrade via Valjevo.
20 So I think I took off right after breakfast. I don’t know if that was early,
21 but I think it was early in the morning. I can't tell you the time though.
22 Q. Right. And if I'm correct then, you only had the 15th, the 16th
23 and the 17th until you broadcast it to put together your documentary and
24 do the voice-over and all of that?
25 A. Yes. That's how we work, and in our parts we say we work as partisans,
1 because we had to work with the conditions that we have. I did the job that
2 would take ten days in the West in 24 hours, maybe even shorter. I took it
3 off the raw material that had changed many hands. If I recall well, there
4 were two editors in Studio B who were taking turns. It was a madhouse; it
5 is a very poor television station with no adequate working conditions. They
6 would, for instance, force you out of the editing room because of their
7 daily programmes; they did not have enough editing desks there. The
8 conditions I work under were quite stressful.
9 Even though the footage was of poor quality, what was important
10 was the authenticity of these events, and in the public this caused two
11 opposing views -- or, rather, neither those in Bosnia nor those in Serbia
12 were satisfied with what I had done just to give you the context in which
13 worked. I also received death threats in the forthcoming period.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, one part of witness's answer was not recorded in
16 the transcript. It has to do that witness mentioned that he was working on
17 the raw material which then changed hands on numerous occasion. He then used
18 a very, very local expression for this. Maybe he could repeat only this part.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you follow that, Mr. Petrovic?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could repeat it, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had to work with great speed and
23 in very inadequate conditions at -- editing conditions, and I was using
24 the material that you refer to as the raw material, the raw cassette. I
25 was taking the images from them, and I had to do it very fast. Normally
1 this is done in -- over ten days. I had to do it much faster although the
2 quality of many of the images were very poor and many of them would not
3 have been aired by professional television houses. Had they done it, it
4 would have been done much differently.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. All right. Now let me just ask you this: How involved were you
7 in the editing? There was an editor you've talked about, but did you just
8 leave the raw material with him and come back and see how it came out, or
9 were you involved with selecting the sequences and shots and so on?
10 A. Well, both were the case. I don't know why this happened.
11 Perhaps one of them had to attend to some more important business and then
12 the other one remained, but the television house had two editors. I don't
13 recall their names, but you might find it in the -- the credits. But you
14 have to give quite a great degree of autonomy to these technicians. You,
15 for instance, can't edit a frame showing you moving in one direction
16 against another one showing you moving in the opposite direction. There
17 are some rules, and so when you do and produce your own footage, they look
18 at the adequacy of footages, and they can change a great deal of the
19 material in editing than was the original intention.
20 So sometime the material was out of my control, because they would
21 throw me out of the editing room because they needed the editing room for
22 regular newscasts that they had, because the television house did not have
23 enough editing equipment, and under the circumstances the tape was out of
24 my control.
25 Later on it was given to numerous international journalists to
1 watch it.
2 Q. Okay. But right now I'm just talking about the 15th and the 16th
3 until the documentary was broadcast. Do you recall telling me -- do you
4 recall what you said about this in the interview, about who was with the
5 editor, whether you worked with the editor?
6 A. Are you perhaps referring to Schiller, the Canadian journalist?
7 Q. No.
8 A. I didn't understand.
9 Q. I'm sorry I'll ask it again. When you said you worked on the
10 editing and you said how it had to be done in a very short time and it
11 would normally have taken ten days, you did it in two days; do you
12 remember telling me how involved you were in that editing process just
13 before you were able to get it put together and aired on the 17th?
14 A. If you can assist me. I don't know what you're getting at now.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. If you can help me. I'm not sure.
17 Q. And maybe this will help. It's on page 105 of your interview.
18 You said -- it wasn't really in response to any question. You said: "You
19 cannot rely on your own material in this way because what I did -- we
20 took -- I was not alone. I was with the editor who was there and
21 everything. We took everything and we got from the beginning -- we took -
22 we didn't know how long it would last - we took all the pictures, and ..."
23 Just the way it was there it seemed like a project you were working on
24 with an editor, and I just want to know if that's what you remember, that
25 it was the two of you together?
1 A. When you say "editor" in English, yes. I mean the person who is
2 editing the images, cutting them and putting them together. That person
3 who was with me. There were two of them in the end. And the atmosphere
4 was quite surreal, and many foreign journalists, when they come and visit,
5 they can't even believe that the television can operate the way it does
6 with the cables all over the floor, people running around. And I -- you
7 know, like chicken without head.
8 And I had two editors working with me, but sometimes they had to
9 devote their efforts to some other newscasts that had to be worked on and
10 then they'd send me out for coffee, and these were the circumstances under
11 which I worked.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me go back one question I forgot to ask
13 you. On the morning of the 15th, before you -- around breakfast-time when
14 you left and went back to Serbia, did you see Mr. Borovcanin that morning?
15 Was he there in the apartment when you woke up and got ready to leave?
16 A. Yes. If I remember well, I believe I went to that restaurant with
17 him because he was of the one who drove me to the border, whether with a
18 driver or not. I believe the driver was there, but the detail was very
19 unimportant for me to remember it. At any rate, we went to that
20 restaurant. I still don't know which restaurant that is. It's at the
21 entrance to Bratunac, and then I just proceeded on my way, because the
22 border is very close, some ten minutes away or so. I forgot.
23 Q. Okay. So you parted company with Mr. Borovcanin near the same
24 bridge that you came over on; is that right?
25 A. Something along those lines.
1 Q. All right. Now, what I'd like to do is show this -- the Studio B
2 footage again just for a minute of the -- in the normal speed of the front
3 of the Kravica warehouse, those few seconds.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. Okay. Now, you testified a little earlier that what we see just
7 before that clip of the Kravica warehouse is Srebrenica on the next day,
8 the 14th, and we see that very short segment of the Kravica warehouse and
9 the bodies and the men, et cetera. What I want to know is when you're
10 editing, if you remember, what happened to the bit right before the shots
11 and the bodies and right after?
12 A. We should find the editors and ask them if you remember at the
13 point when I say "quite a surreal scene" and then the next sequence with
14 the warehouse follows. It's the same line of movement technically
15 speaking. And that's the only reason in my mind since I don't remember
16 the detail why this is so.
17 An editor cannot have as a preceding frame -- or, rather, he can't
18 really break off the preceding frame abruptly. That's why the frame
19 before that is also a frame filmed from the car, although it's not the
20 same scene.
21 Since it's a rule of the thumb of editing, I didn't intervene
22 there. Technically speaking, the editors considered the raw material to
23 be very poor, and that's why they had to make this pie, so to speak, this
24 way. And that's why you have the two frames together and they're both in
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. That's how other technicians -- or, rather, experts would explain
3 this to you.
4 Q. Okay. So let me understand. The reason the small clip is moved
5 to the next day to a different town is for the effect.
6 A. Yes, for technical reasons. That was dictated by the law of the
8 Q. All right.
9 A. Television image.
10 Q. If you remember, just if you remember, what was on the raw
11 material before it got edited out, right before those eight seconds and
12 right after?
13 A. I can't remember that.
14 Q. And you explained it a little before that very, very briefly,
15 anything else you can tell us about how this original Studio B documentary
16 disappeared from Studio B.
17 A. I believe the Chamber will find this situation very interesting
18 too. In mid-July 1995, when the Srebrenica story began to unfold slowly,
19 and as soon as the programme was aired, I was attacked in the Belgrade
20 newspapers, that I -- that this was a disgrace, terrible propaganda for
21 the Serbs, although I acted within the laws of the profession of
22 journalist -- journalism. I remember that one of the ladies who attacked
23 me was invited into the studio to confront me, and she refused this.
24 Meanwhile, such programmes are normally rerun, and it so happened
25 that the tape disappeared from the office of the editor-in-chief, which is
1 the only known case of the original broadcasting tape going missing -- or,
2 rather, that's the second original tape, because the first original tape
3 is the raw-material tape. It's much larger than the better broadcasting
4 tape, and it went missing.
5 It was never explained to me in greater detail what happened. I
6 was only told that it went missing. I could only conclude that it was
7 either taken by some state intelligence services or that somebody had sold
8 it. There was no third conclusion, possible third conclusion. That was
9 the fate of the cassette. There was this VHS tape that I gave to the
10 Serbian diaspora in Canada because they had been attacking me about the
11 programme as well. That was when I went to Canada, and in fact this saved
12 my name, my name as a journalist, because there you have the images that
13 later on disappeared in that -- on that other tape that changed hands
15 Q. Thank you. I don't have any more questions right now for you.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
18 Now, let's check on the various cross-examinations.
19 Mr. Zivanovic, will you be cross-examining this witness?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will not cross-examine this witness, Your
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Meek, will you be cross-examining this witness?
23 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I don't believe I will be.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Nikolic?
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Same here. I don't believe that I
1 will have any questions for the witness, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think I need to ask you for the time being,
3 Mr. Lazarevic.
4 Madam Fauveau?
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci, Madam.
7 Mr. Krgovic.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: I would, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And how long do you require?
10 MR. KRGOVIC: I think 45 minutes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: 45. It's not 4 to 5, it's 45.
12 Mr. Haynes?
13 MR. HAYNES: No thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And, Mr. Lazarevic, how long do you think you will
15 cross-examine this witness?
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, Your Honours, I have to admit that this is a
17 very, very difficult question. After I heard the testimony of the
18 witness, first of all, my colleague, well, in our discussion he told me
19 that it's going to be a very brief examination-in-chief. However, it took
20 almost four hours. On the other hand, now when I look at the questions I
21 prepared it seems that a number of them was already answered by the
22 witness. I will be able to cross-examine the witness for the rest of the
23 day, and then I will make another much better estimation on this.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Unless you wish in consultation with the Gvero
25 Defence team that they go first today. No. I see. No. So you go --
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: They do not wish to start today, but I'm ready to
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you start, Mr. Lazarevic, and you do your
4 homework and tell us. Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Petrovic.
8 A. Good evening.
9 Q. For the transcript, I will introduce myself to you. My name is
10 Aleksandar Lazarevic. I'm attorney-at-law and together with my colleague
11 Stojanovic and colleague Cmeric and other members of my team I represent
12 General Borovcanin.
13 Having noticed the speeds with which you answer the questions put
14 to you in English, I'm afraid that it will go even faster now that both of
15 us are speaking Serbian.
16 A. I will take it slowly.
17 Q. Perhaps the best way to proceed would be to observe the transcript
18 and when you see the text stop moving, then you'll know that my question
19 has been interpreted and that will be the time for you to start answering
20 my question.
21 A. Thank you.
22 Q. Yesterday, I listened -- listened to the very beginning of your
23 testimony and realised that you were a reporter from the Majevica theatre
24 of war, and you spoke of your experience there, of what you observed at
25 the Majevica theatre, and that Special Police Brigade took part in those
1 operations. Do you recall this part of your testimony?
2 A. Far from having said all about it, of course, since that's not the
3 topic of this trial. Still today I'm very moved when I think about it,
4 this was the closest I’d ever come to and seen real Arab Mujahedin in our
5 area, in our region.
6 Q. Thank you. My question was only to take you back to some of these
7 events. After having reported from the Majevica theatre, according to the
8 information I have, you also attended the Sarajevo theatre as a war
9 reporter, which according to my information was only for a brief period of
10 time before going to Srebrenica where -- and there again the Special
11 Police Brigade participated in those events and you reported on that. Can
12 you just confirm that this is indeed the case for the sake of my next
14 A. Yes. Majevica was in March, Semizovac was in June and Srebrenica
15 in July of 1995.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Having been present in the areas and having
17 personally observed the events, what was your conclusion or conclusion of
18 a person who had travelled widely and seen Nicaragua and Lebanon and all
19 the fighting there? What was your conclusion as to the army of that unit?
20 Was it disciplined? Was it well-organised? What was your conclusion
21 about that unit?
22 A. We're talking about the professional qualities of the unit. I
23 think that President Karadzic devoted a great deal of attention to it. I
24 believe that the entire army of Republika Srpska was proud of the standard
25 of that unit in terms of its military experience and all the way to its
1 chivalrous conduct, because the backbone of the unit was made up of
2 professional policemen, schooled men who knew what the rules of
3 conduct for every situation were. From what I was able to see out in the
4 field, they were better trained and better equipped, and left a much
5 better impression on those who observed them.
6 Perhaps their equipment wasn't that good, but when I once
7 interviewed President Karadzic in his home, I saw the latest type of the
8 Israeli Galila [as interpreted]. So that unit knew what cutting-edge
9 equipment meant. That's why I was covering them.
10 Yesterday I mentioned the Black Swans, one of the elite units of
11 President Izetbegovic that was covered by the CNN and Christiane Amanpour.
12 I wanted to produce a story that the Serbs had one such unit as well and
13 that would be widely watched and this was connected with Semizovac.
14 Q. One more question about that. When you were in the Sarajevo
15 theatre of war, did anybody ever mention a possibility for the special
16 brigade of the police to go to Srebrenica?
17 A. Absolutely not. As I've already told Mr. Nicholls, I am a
18 journalist, and there are rules of behaviour that apply to journalists,
19 especially when it comes to well-trained and educated people. There were
20 no such stories. I don't remember for a single moment. I was filming
21 this fox which we were trying to catch alive. That was also aired and
22 Studio B. And now that I watch it I would cut it in half because of the
23 long frames, but I insisted on time on the atmosphere and that is the
24 answer to the main question as to what war is, you have to show the
25 conditions under which the people work in. And as for this type of
1 information, nobody provided me with that because you don't give that
2 information to the journalist. I don't know why they would have given it
3 to me.
4 Q. Thank you very much. This was the essence of my question. In
5 other words, if you --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You gave the perfect advice, but neither have you
7 been watching the transcript. So please slow down because the
8 interpreters are really, really trying hard, and it's difficult for them.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I be a bit cynical if you will
10 allow me? In our midst there was never such a degree of coordination
11 between the media or whatever has been left of the media. In America they
12 always know in advance what they are going to shoot, and they're always
13 embedded. They're almost like members of the unit. They are there in
14 their barracks where they sleep, where they eat. I was embedded in a very
15 primitive sense only because I knew Mr. Borovcanin. But I don't believe
16 that the higher command knew, and that if they had known that, they would
17 [as interpreted] have allowed to let me in because it would have been
18 against the normal rules, the rules that every army has.
19 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I believe your answer was very detailed
20 and very clear. Now I would like to move on to something else, which is
21 the moment when you arrived in Potocari.
22 I read your statement carefully, the one that you provided to the
23 Office of the Prosecutor, which is Exhibit number 5D538. This is my
24 reference for what I'm going to show you. It is on page 16 of the B/C/S
25 version or page 15 of the English version.
1 In that statement you stated that from the moment you arrived in
2 Potocari you did not speak to Mr. Borovcanin until the moment you met
3 again and left Potocari together. Can you just say yes or no? Can you
4 just confirm?
5 A. Yes. I'm saying yes.
6 Q. Thank you very much. And now you have already confirmed the
7 following things today, but let me ask you once again.
8 After you left Potocari and have been driving on the road, you did
9 not speak to Mr. Borovcanin of what had been going on in Potocari, what
10 you had recorded, what you had seen?
11 A. I can't remember that because the situation was as it was. And
12 let me repeat, there was fire coming from the left-hand side throughout
13 all our entire journey, and there was no time or situation for
14 discussions. He had already done me a favour. He could not have acted as
15 my guide in every single situation. He allowed me to shoot my movie.
16 Somebody had shot me that would have been my risk.
17 Q. Thank you very much. I understand that all of this was taking
18 place under rather tense circumstances, but I would like to know about the
19 time that you spent in Potocari while you were filming your footage. Was
20 there anybody else but Borovcanin? I'm referring to the members of the
21 army, the police, the refugees that you might have known or was there
23 A. I don't remember anybody whom I knew.
24 Q. Thank you very much. That was the essence of my question.
25 A. I apologise to the interpretation in English is not good. I said
1 I don't remember anybody whom I knew. It is not "whom I knew" but nobody.
2 That's what I was really afraid of. There is so much of that. But let us
3 slow down for the interpreters and I apologise to them.
4 Q. Let's try and rectify the transcript. Your answer was this:
5 Except for Borovcanin, you didn't know anybody else.
6 A. That's correct. I didn't know anybody else. Correction,
7 correction. I apologise. If you don't mean Mr. Tomo Kovac, whom I knew
8 from before, but he was not my friend. I just knew him by sight, and he
9 knew me as a famous journalist.
10 Q. Yes, yes. I understand. I appreciate your answer, but my
11 question was related only to Potocari and not to both days when you were
13 One can see this on your footage, but when you arrived in
14 Potocari, you saw a number of DutchBat members, and I don't think it was a
15 problem identifying them. They had shorts, T-shirts, blue berets and
16 short trousers. And they were not armed, were they, those that you saw;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Those that I could see in that compound, no. In the ring nearest
19 to me, I did not enter the next further ring, but I could see a number
20 another group of Dutch Battalion members in the compound in the building.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the problem.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] It seems at first this witness did
23 not say those that I could see in that compound no. Basically, the words
24 he used was on that first row, something like first ring, not the
25 compound, because when we refer to the compound at this Tribunal it means
1 in -- well, in most of the situation the Dutch compound, the base, and I
2 believe that these footages were taken outside the compound, so he was
3 referring to this first ring of Dutch soldiers. But I will clarify this
4 with the witness.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, please.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My question about the Dutch Battalion was this: You saw those in
8 short trousers and T-shirts. Those were the ones that you eventually
9 recorded on your footage, is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And those were not the same Dutchmen who were on the base. Those
12 were Dutch soldiers that were among the refugees.
13 A. Yes, but let's clarify one thing for Mr. Agius and other Judges. This
14 is all in the compound. The refugees were there in the compound, but Dutch
15 soldiers withdrew. It was hot. It was in the background. Most of them were in
16 the factory, and you could see-- you can see some of them, and those who were
17 assisting the Serbs, they cooperated directly, which was obvious to someone
18 who came there unexpectedly, like me. They worked together on the problem.
19 I stated that but obviously none of you have read that. I stated
20 that in a conversation of that same nature with the Dutch royal history
21 institute. I believe that's roughly its title. Those are the same people
22 who drafted a 5.000-page report on the same problem. I believe I also
23 said that the atmosphere was -- I would have recognised if they had been
24 afraid, if they had been under some sort of torture. They would not have
25 looked the way they did.
1 I saw a guy who was drinking milk, looking very relaxed. There
2 was another black guy, a Dutch soldier also, who was driving… he was
3 pushing an elderly man in a wheelchair or a wheelbarrow [as interpreted],
4 as we call it. And they were helping them. And you have to know that the
5 temperature was in its -- in the 30s or maybe more. And they were
6 supposed to evacuate these people as soon as possible, and my impression
7 was that they all worked hard towards that goal, to do it as fast as
8 possible. And those were mostly women, children, and the elderly. In
9 other words, the Dutch too were trying hard – that was my impression -
10 to do the job as quickly as possible.
11 Q. Thank you very much. I believe we will go back to that later on
12 in my cross-examination.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry to interrupt. I think there is a mistake in
14 the transcript based on my knowledge of the statement. Page 92, 3, it
15 says "driving a car in a wheelchair or a wheelbarrow." I think the
16 probably the witness was talking about bringing a person in a
17 wheelbarrow. I leave that to my friend if he thinks that matters.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe they don't know what a
19 wheelbarrow is.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe maybe we should take our
21 break earlier today. I'm about to finish with this topic and it's just a
22 couple of things --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Overlapping speakers].
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] The interpreters have quite a lot
25 of difficulties in following.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think everyone is tired. Everyone is tired.
2 THE WITNESS: [In English] I am not.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll continue tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15.
4 Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you everybody. We'll continue tomorrow, and
7 try to make a revised assessment how long you need to continue
8 cross-examining this witness. Good evening.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day
11 of December, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.