1 Thursday, 6 December 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam. And good afternoon to you and to
10 everyone else. All the accused are here. From the Defence teams I only
11 notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic. Present for the Prosecution,
12 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls.
13 Ready to roll? Okay. So, Mr. Lazarevic, have you thought about
14 reducing or expanding your cross-examination?
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, good afternoon first, Your Honour. I was
16 having a lot of thoughts, and Your Honours would be probably be pleased to
17 hear that I significantly reduced my cross-examination. With the
18 assistance of our witness, I believe that I'll be able to finish it in one
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's good. Thank you for that. Let's proceed,
22 WITNESS: ZORAN PETROVIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Petrovic.
1 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Petrovic, you heard what I promised the Bench. In order to
4 meet my promise, I would kindly ask you for your cooperation and to try
5 and answer as briefly as possible, if possible with a mere yes or no. If
6 you don't know or if you don't remember, please say so. These are fully
7 valid answers. In case something is unclear please ask me and I will
8 reformulate my question.
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. Yesterday, we were discussing some events of the 13th of July in
11 the afternoon in Potocari, and we discussed certain members of the Dutch
12 Battalion wearing T shirts. Do you remember where we left off so that I
13 could continue with my next question?
14 A. [No audible response]
15 Q. I can see you nodding.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In order to get to that part of Potocari where the refugees were
18 and the Dutch Battalion members in T-shirts, you had to pass by the Dutch
19 base; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On passing by, you could see that there were Dutch soldiers inside
22 the base in full combat gather with helmets, flak jackets, rifles and
23 everything else?
24 A. Yes. And I can add that there were two types of Dutch soldiers at
25 that moment: some were without weapons - they are in the forefront, and
1 others who were with weapons – they are in the background.
2 Q. Thank you. On one of the shots from Potocari, which is part of
3 the footage you made, we can see a Serb soldier in a blue flak jacket and
4 he's addressed as Miki. I just want to show you a photograph to remind
5 you. It is P0286 -- I apologise. 2986. It is page 16. It is a
6 photograph marked with a C. You'll see it on your screen. I suppose you
7 know which photograph specifically I'm referring to. For the record, we
8 are talking about the person on the right-hand side of the photograph with
9 a blue flak jacket.
10 Having seen this lad and having seen that he's wearing a blue flak jacket,
11 can you tell us this: At the moment you saw it, was it your conclusion
12 that this flak jacket had been taken from a member of the United Nations?
13 A. Absolutely not, because of a personal experience; I had received
14 a similar flak jacket from a French TV station on previous occasions,
15 I didn’t have it with me in Srebrenica. But it’s a banal detail.
16 I never thought it had been taken from anyone.
17 Q. Thank you. Just one more thing. When you went towards Potocari, do you
18 remember Mr. Borovcanin telling you that he needs to resolve something
19 that had to do with a bus theft? Do you recall anything like that?
20 A. I cannot recall anything that was formulated that way. I know
21 there were some problems in the process of transporting of some 28.000
22 civilians, in my view they were being transported to Tuzla. There were
23 dozens of buses and trucks there and you can see some of them on the
24 footage. In any case, we were headed there and having arrived there, I
25 realised what it was that he needed to do. He probably had to secure some
1 water and the rest. It was quite hot. You can see the man in the jacket.
2 He actually has a T-shirt. I know he had to do something with water and
4 Q. Thank you. We will come back to that topic. This was merely a
5 possible reference to a stolen bus. Do you remember anything like that?
6 A. No, not a bus. Something was stolen. I think it was a water tank.
7 Q. We'll get to that topic. Thank you. Once in Potocari, and I can
8 see that from the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, it is page 19, you
9 said that alongside the road, you saw piles of items, bags, blankets,
10 items of clothing and such. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes, when we arrived, when we came out of the vehicle, around the
12 entrance and in the part where we… where I saw for he first time such…
13 such a large number of people who had fled Srebrenica. It was a
14 very striking image. I've never seen so many items in one pile, in a
15 heap, and it was a clear indication of how poor they were. A person
16 living in a city would actually never dream of wearing such things. It
17 was quite a shock, although as a journalist I couldn't afford to be
18 shocked as I was doing my job. However, I do believe that I reported on
19 it appropriately.
20 Q. Thank you. According to your statement, the Dutch and Serb
21 soldiers were assisting those people to reach the buses in as orderly a
22 fashion as possible. This is page 20 of your statement in the English
23 version. Did you tell that to the Prosecutor?
24 A. Yes. And perhaps I can add something. If I were forced to do
25 something, if I were a soldier and I find myself disarmed and threatened,
1 I certainly would not looked so relaxed.
2 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, I found a sentence
3 which attracted my attention. It is on page 21. You said that while you
4 were there, you didn't see anyone being beaten, maltreated, abused or
5 anything of that nature. Can you confirm that today as well?
6 A. Yes. If you have an image of a victor, as you saw him in any
7 movies or on TV, it would be somewhat different from what I could see. I
8 didn't see a smile on Mr. Borovcanin's face or on the faces of those
9 people there. I merely saw great fatigue. However, I didn't hear a
10 single soldier address the people boarding those buses harshly. My
11 thinking is such that I would certainly make a note of it in the text I
13 Q. Thank you. To go back to the topic which you touched upon before
14 I managed to reach it in the order of my questions, on that footage from
15 Potocari, as you also mention in your statement, page 21, there was a
16 problem with a water tank or a water truck there. Could we please see
17 that part of your footage? This is trial video Exhibit number P02047, the
18 number of the video is V 000-4458.
19 [Videotape played]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think there is a problem.
21 THE WITNESS: [In English] But I understood.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Wait, because we have to understand as well and
23 we need to see it again.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I believe we have to see it again --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Or to see it because I don't think we have seen
1 anything basically.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. And it is highly important that we see one
3 precise moment of this tape in order to identify certain person.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop here.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah but stop, I take it stop at the frame, which is
7 not the last one that we have seen and we keep on having it on the screen
8 because otherwise --
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, we may be able to do this in Sanction,
10 if perhaps --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be also better, Mr. Nicholls, because what
12 we were seeing here doesn't have a counter, so we can't pinpoint the exact
13 location or the exact frame.
14 [Videotape played]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record we stopped at 2 hours 28 minutes 32
16 seconds point 1.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, and I have to express my gratitude to my
18 colleagues from the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You are always so gentle, Mr. Lazarevic.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Petrovic, on this still, we can see on the left-hand side
22 Mr. Borovcanin, on the right-hand side we can see a member of the Dutch
23 Battalion obviously, and between the two we see two people. I am trying
24 to focus on the two people between Mr. Borovcanin and the Dutch soldier.
25 My first question is this: As you said, except for Mr. Borovcanin, you
1 didn't know anyone else in Potocari. Perhaps it's out of place but can
2 you confirm to me that you don't know these two people between the two I
3 mentioned earlier?
4 A. [Interpretation] Could I follow the text? I don't see it. I
5 don't know when the interpreters are done.
6 Yes. My answer is that I don't know anyone else save for
7 Mr. Borovcanin. I have a comment, however, which may be of assistance.
8 The two people in the middle have certain bands which were probably an
9 indication from a previous operation or the ongoing operation. Therefore,
10 they were not from Mr. Borovcanin's unit. They could easily be told apart
11 by their emblem.
12 In the war in the former Yugoslavia, we used to call that the
13 local troops or those defending their home land, people who did not leave
14 the terrain from which they hailed. Perhaps you could hear me say
15 something about water on the footage, and then I was interrupted,
16 indicating that I realised that there was a problem with water. You can
17 see that on -- at the beginning of this part of the footage.
18 Q. Thank you for that clarification. You saved at least two
19 additional questions for me. I'm trying to tell you to put to you that
20 the soldiers we saw wanted to take the water tank away, it was an UNPROFOR
21 water tank, they tried to have it towed away by the tractor as can be seen
22 on the footage and that that was the reason why the Dutch Battalion
23 members protested. Does that correspond to what you remember about the
25 A. Yes. And there was a two metre tall Dutch soldier who seemed to
1 be very frightened there, if I can say that. Well, in inverted commas, he
2 seems to be afraid of the Serbs. Anyway, Mr. Borovcanin's intervention, I
3 think, was successful because I don't have footage of when the tractor
4 towed away the water tank. As far as I remember, it stayed where it was,
5 so I think that the agreement between Mr. Borovcanin and the Dutch soldier
6 probably was -- succeeded.
7 Q. So from your testimony if I understood you correctly,
8 Mr. Borovcanin went to see the soldiers and prevail upon them to leave the
9 water tank there and not to tow it away and that that was what we were
10 looking at and what we saw, right?
11 A. Yes. That's how it appeared to me on the spot when I was there.
12 Q. Thank you. Just one more question about this event in Potocari or
13 these events in Potocari. While you were there in Potocari, you did not
14 see or hear at any time that Mr. Borovcanin issued any orders to anybody;
15 is that correct? Am I right in observing that?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. In your statement, when you spoke about Potocari and said that you
18 saw members of the Special Police Brigade there, and for reference that is
19 to be found on page 27 of your statement given to the Prosecutor, you said
20 you concluded that on the basis of the markings or insignia they had on
21 their sleeves. Do you remember saying that?
22 A. Yes. The design that that unit wore as a marking was very
23 obvious. You could always see it. They were easily distinguishable from
24 others in the field and there were far fewer of them than others, say in
25 Potocari… As far as I remember, they were far fewer than the local people
1 wearing uniforms.
2 Q. Thank you. A couple of more questions and then we'll leave the
3 subject of Potocari. While you were there, you didn't see any act by
4 which the males were separated, physically separated, from their families,
5 from the women and children, you didn't see anyone pulling people aside,
6 to one side or anything like that?
7 A. Absolutely not. We arrived at about 2.30 on the 13th in the
8 afternoon, and the only thing that could have happened was something that
9 happened before I arrived. Mr. Nicholls asked me that about the terrace,
10 the situation on the terrace, where the Muslims were sitting probably
11 separated earlier, but had they been separated at that moment, I would
12 have filmed that too. So they were already on the terrace and were
13 already separated and I took some shots of that.
14 Q. Thank you. Now I noticed something in your statement to the
15 Prosecutor on page 32, that's the reference, I noticed that you were
16 surprised by the number of children there were between the ages of one and
17 three who were in Potocari when you arrived. I'm sure you remember that
18 part of your statement and testimony.
19 A. Well, my first association was when talking to the geopolitician
20 from France, the very renowned politician, Lacoste, who told me about the
21 demographic warfare that was going on or rather how you engage in
22 demographic warfare, that is to say large population increases in order to
23 reach your aims, your goals. Now, I was rather shocked to see the number
24 of children there between the ages of one and three, three to four babies,
25 because we had been listening for the two previous years how people were
1 dying of hunger almost, they didn't have enough to eat, so I thought that
2 this was an unbelievable image to witness.
3 You know how little children are all-- look nice and good looking
4 children, these weren't children from Darfur, they weren't thin or
5 anything, and that's what struck me because when I looked at some data and
6 information later, there were some 5.000 to 6.000 children born from 1993
7 to 1995, for example.
8 Q. Thank you for that answer. But just to complete the transcript,
9 on page 9, line 24, if I heard your answer, you said "We heard that people
10 were living -- were dying there," whereas can we clear that up? On the
11 transcript it's said "They were dying of hunger"?
12 A. No, no. I wasn't there of course. Some people were able to enter
13 with General Morillon but I wasn't in that kind on those kinds of terms
14 and American journalists entered too, but this was something that was
15 already known in public. There were a lot of articles and stories told
16 about Srebrenica.
17 So if they said there was 40.000, a population of 40.000 and about
18 10.000 people bearing arms then 6, 7, or 8.000 which makes it a third of
19 the people, a third of the population, were new-born babies or very small
20 children. So if we were to analyse that, then that would not be normal in
21 view of the tales being told about Srebrenica.
22 Q. Perhaps the next exhibit that we are going to see will help us
23 resolve some of these things and depict them so that we can gain a true
24 image and true picture of what was happening there, and it's a document
25 dated the 11th of January 1995. It was compiled by the municipal staff of
1 civilian protection of Srebrenica, and it is a review of the population
2 households, and I'd like now on e-court to have 4D127 shown, please.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe we can zoom it a bit and just to show the
4 witness the lower part of the documents.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Petrovic, here we can gain an impression
6 of the age structure here of the people, the population, and we will look
7 at the second part of the document later on. So in the last column on the
8 right, we have the letter M, which means male, and at the top it says, up
9 to the age of 18, and the figure there is 6.294. Can you confirm that
10 that is so?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, in the upper part of this table, we have the column with the
13 gender or sex and it says Z or F for female, and the third column says or,
14 rather, fourth column says up to 18, 5.706. Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Could we now scroll the document to see the upper
17 part? Thank you.
18 Q. [Interpretation] And we have the upper table, where in the first
19 column it says, total number of population, 36.051.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, since this is a document originating from the civilian
22 protection staff of Srebrenica and that we are dealing with the beginning
23 of 1995 and that of course there might be some deviations from this, but
24 regardless of all that, the situation was the following: It shows that
25 almost -- almost more than -- perhaps more than a third of the Srebrenica
1 population was below the age of 18. Do you agree with my observation
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Of course, the figure that you used, 7.000 or 8.000 children up to
5 the age of three is not precise enough perhaps.
6 A. Well, certainly, it isn't. But the impression was exceptionally
8 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to leave Potocari and move on to another
9 area on that same day, the 13th, after Potocari, where, according to your
10 statement, you stayed for approximately half an hour to one hour and that
11 is on page 29 of your statement, in English, and then you said you set off
12 to Bratunac, and along the road to Kravica, Sandici and so on; is that
13 right? Is that what you did?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. From your testimony, I gathered that along a section of the road,
16 and you called it the Kravica stream where there was that dilapidated
17 house and a meadow across the way, that on this broader part of the road
18 you once stopped and filmed the surrender of Muslims, as well as the
19 members of the Special Police Brigade who were there, is that right?
20 A. Yes, to the best of my recollections.
21 Q. And you filmed on that same occasion two young men wearing
22 uniforms, one with the insignia of the Special Brigade who says - you
23 remember that part - "Boro, let's change the rifle -- the pistol." And then
24 you filmed the surrender, the stream, the young man and everything else.
25 A. Yes. All those scenes were filmed at that time.
1 Q. Thank you. I'd like us now to look at another exhibit that we saw
2 yesterday during your testimony, and that is P02986, page 52, please. It
3 is a photograph, photograph D [as interpreted].
4 I said B, photograph B. I see that there is a mistake in the
5 transcript and that it says D. So it should be B.
6 You remember yesterday that you saw this same photograph and the
7 Prosecutor was interested in something about the car. Now I'm interested
8 in something else. When we look at this photograph now and when we see
9 your footage, although I didn't want to go through all the footage, but
10 can we state that this was taken from a distance and using the facilities
11 you had you zoomed in from a distance to film this?
12 A. Yes. And let me remind everyone here in court that it's a camera
13 which is not for professional use. It's a very weak camera, the ordinary
14 one, the number 8 type, 8-millimetre type as we call it.
15 Q. I have two questions with respect to this photograph. You didn't
16 come up close to them to be able to see who the person with the blue
17 helmet on was talking to Mr. Borovcanin. You didn't come up close enough,
18 did you?
19 A. No. And when I looked through the camera I didn't notice anything
20 special and the scene before that, I was near the ditch by the road with
21 the young man who wanted to exchange his pistol with the other guy. He
22 was very young so that's what drew my attention. You know, a journalist
23 always wants to have an image to hold people's attention, but this was a
24 very banal and ordinary sort of scene.
25 Q. Yes. I just wanted to ask you whether you perhaps know the
1 identity of this person or to what unit he belonged. We can't see it on
2 the basis of this photograph, but I'm just asking you whether you could
3 say who that person could be?
4 A. No, I don't know the man.
5 Q. All right. Fine. Thank you.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour at this point I will have to ask for
7 the assistance again from my colleagues from the Prosecution, it seems
8 that our Sanction system does not work, and I hope that Ms. Stewart will
9 be able to assist me at this point because I need to show to the witness
10 one portion of the video.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure the Prosecution will comply. They have an
12 indication of which --
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I believe that they are already informed.
14 [Interpretation] Just for the record, this is Exhibit P02047. It is a
15 trial video, and on the tape it is from 024745 to 024812. So I think that
16 that's the section that we will be showing.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Please stop.
19 Q. [Interpretation] I wanted to show you this footage, I selected
20 that from the entire footage, because you spoke about this when you talked
21 to my colleagues from the Prosecution, and it's on page 82 of your
22 statement too. Tell me, please, with respect to this piece of
23 information, what the soldier says here about the fact that 3.000 or 4.000
24 surrendered and then you say, "Is that exaggerated?" And then he said,
25 "Well, yes, it is exaggerated." And then you take him back to what you
1 were asking him. What was your impression? How credible is that piece of
2 information, would you say?
3 A. I haven't got the text on my screen to facilitate the work of our
4 lady interpreters. Now, the text, as far as I remember, that's the figure
5 I bandied about on the 21st of July, but these were still rumours and this
6 is the impression gained by a man who covers just several metres along a
7 road or in a space. And I don't think even Mladic would be able to
8 provide you with that kind of information let alone this young local guy
9 who is there supervising this very, very narrow stretch of road.
10 So that's why I left it there, this part, and it speaks for
11 itself. It shows how arbitrary this was.
12 Q. Thank you but for us to investigate this question in depth and
13 bearing in mind the fact that you filmed people who surrendered on the
14 meadow in Sandici and that you did have an opportunity of seeing those
15 people yourself gathered in the meadow, according to your estimate, how
16 many people were there approximately in that meadow? You went up to them
17 and filmed them. How many people could there have been there in your
19 A. It is my impression that it would be enough people to fill a bus
20 load, a bus load of people, and I think that I could stand by that and if
21 we were to take a satellite image, and they are precise to within five
22 centimetres or even more precise, I am very surprised that that isn't a
23 fact that has been established here in court up until now because
24 satellites could be used and they would show that I'm right.
25 Q. I was just interested in your assessment and impression so that
1 will suffice as far as I'm concerned for the moment. And now just one
2 more question with regards to that meadow in Sandici. You were free to
3 film? Mr. Borovcanin never told you not to film the people in the meadow?
4 He didn't say don't film what's going on here? Don't film the people in
5 the meadow? Nothing like that? Can you confirm that that was so?
6 A. Of course he did not. Well, let me remind you, as I told
7 Mr. Nicholls earlier on, I had two experiences with that unit during the
8 war, and I conducted myself professionally, I did my job professionally,
9 so there was no need for anybody to supervise me in any way, absolutely no
10 need for them to supervise and see what I was filming, if they had already
11 given me permission to film.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify that point, but I
13 think that that is enough. Yesterday during your testimony at page 46 of
14 yesterday's transcript, you said that later you heard some rumours that
15 some of the people from the meadow were subsequently killed and
16 specifically you mentioned the person by the name of Ramo.
17 My question is this: After everything you saw and experienced
18 during the two days in the area, do you believe today that Mr. Borovcanin
19 did not know what was about to happen or, rather, that the people from the
20 meadow would get killed at a later stage?
21 A. It is my deep professional belief, and I believe in that as a
22 person, a human being. I don't know whether I can assist you any further
23 except for stating this clearly. Nothing indicated that it would turn any
24 other way. I have 29 years of journalistic experience and at that point I
25 had some 20. I would have sensed that and I simply could not resist
1 continuing filming if that were the case.
2 Q. Thank you. I will leave the topic of the Sandici meadow. I have
3 only one question concerning the part of the footage showing the bodies in
4 front of the Kravica warehouse. We saw that two or three times yesterday.
5 I don't think it is necessary for me to replay it again, but you also
6 refer to that at page 236 of your statement given to the Prosecutor.
7 I would just like to confirm a detail from your statement, if
8 possible, of course. When you passed by the Kravica warehouse, then, on
9 that occasion, you didn't see any of the soldiers you can see there
10 shooting towards the warehouse, towards the windows and the entrance of
11 the warehouse. Can you confirm to me that this is what you've already
12 stated to the Prosecutor?
13 A. I can categorically confirm that. That sequence is only a few
14 seconds long and only if we slow it down and zoom in can we see people
15 appearing there. As I was taking the footage, I simply wasn’t aware of
16 any people being there. You have to understand, it’s a matter of possibly
17 counting one, two, three… These are all subsequent viewings, you know.
18 Q. As you testified yesterday, the night between the 13th and the
19 14th of July, you spent that night in Bratunac. From the statement you
20 gave to my learned friends from the Prosecution, at page 77, you said that
21 you did not spend that night in -- or rather you did spend that night in
22 Bratunac but you did not hear any shooting.
23 A. I did not.
24 Q. I will leave that topic as well and move on to another one.
25 You testified that together with Mr. Borovcanin the next day,
1 after the events, you went to Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar where you also
2 filmed Mr. Tomislav Kovac. Do you remember that part of your testimony?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yesterday, I observed a detail which may have been unimportant to
5 you but on page 72 of the transcript you said that on that occasion, on
6 the 14th, when you went to Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar, a driver was with
7 you. According to the information we have, that is the Defence, the
8 driver of Mr. Borovcanin was on another location on the 14th driving
9 someone else to another place, and you can see on the footage that at
10 least three people were in the car. Do you allow for the possibility that
11 it was someone else accompanying you that day, not the same person who was
12 with you on the 13th but another one who was maybe driving?
13 A. Yes, absolutely. As I said, I tried to stay focused as a one-man
14 band. I was interested in what I was seeing and as to who was driving us,
15 that was unimportant to me. Therefore I allow for the possibility that
16 the driver was not the same. I simply do not remember the face.
17 Q. Thank you. In responding to some of the Prosecutor's questions,
18 when providing your statement, at page 106 of the English, you said that
19 when you were in Srebrenica and in Zeleni Jadar with Mr. Borovcanin on the
20 14th, you said that Mr. Borovcanin did not brief Mr. Kovac. You thought
21 that was quite ordinary since they were both professionals and that it
22 would be inappropriate that some sort of a briefing would be conducted in
23 the presence of another person. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes. I will remind you of the footage. When we arrived there,
25 there was a local policeman, probably the new chief. He is the one who is
1 supposed to brief the minister. As far as I remember, Ljubisa merely
2 greeted him, as did all of us. It was not his territory. He was not
3 chief of police there. There was a person doing that job there.
4 Q. Thank you. If I understood your yesterday's testimony properly, I
5 believe at a certain point we had some problems with overlapping and
6 translations and interpretation of everything you said. However, I think
7 you said that once in Srebrenica, you could wander about on your own and
8 film things and Mr. Borovcanin did not accompany you any longer. Is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Therefore, there was an interval during which you didn't know what
12 Mr. Borovcanin was doing, whether he was talking to Mr. Kovac or anything
13 else. That's what I conclude from your answer.
14 A. Yes, that is right.
15 Q. Regarding this, just two minor things to clarify. It has to do
16 with yesterday's transcript, and I wasn't quite sure whether everything
17 was taken down properly. It had to do with the fact that you mentioned a
18 certain Lukic on page 69 of the transcript. I understood that the person
19 by the name of Lukic you referred to that person in the context of a
20 breakfast where you were together with Mr. Kovac and Borovcanin. On page
21 69, it was recorded -- transcribed as having taken place in Belgrade. Can
22 we correct that, please?
23 A. There was no breakfast in Belgrade. It was in Bratunac, prior to
24 the departure for Belgrade.
25 Q. Thank you. I observed that and I thought this would be the best
1 way to clarify it so that you can explain it to us.
2 Since Mr. Borovcanin was there as well as Mr. Kovac, and the rest,
3 those people were from the police, weren't they? And I'm asking you
4 whether it was possible that you wrongly remember the name of the last
5 person, that maybe it wasn't the last name of Lukic but some other?
6 A. Of course, I allow that as well. However, I probably may have
7 registered a Lukic there. Maybe I can be of assistance because I now
8 understand what Mr. Nicholls had in mind. He had in mind the famous Lukic
9 from Visegrad. I heard some things about him. But that Lukic or such a
10 Lukic was not present at that breakfast. If there was a Lukic, it wasn't
11 "the Lukic." That's what I was trying to say.
12 Q. I believe this is crystal clear now and I think it does away with
13 the learned friend's from the Prosecution's dilemma.
14 To conclude, I have a few questions left. You mentioned this in
15 your statement. However, in 2002, when Mr. Borovcanin came to see you and
16 asked you whether you wanted to provide a statement about all these events,
17 he actually conveyed to you his request for you to give your contribution
18 to the proceedings? Did he tell you at the time that he wanted you merely
19 to tell the truth and nothing else? He didn't ask you to do anything else?
20 A. Yes. He put it very clearly and concisely. And as I said, I
21 answered positively, without hesitation. I wanted to help that person and
22 I wish I could have helped more because of my impression of his character.
23 Q. Thank you. I am convinced that my client would like to thank you
24 personally for these words. However, I would like to thank on his behalf,
1 On that occasion, you presented Mr. Borovcanin with a copy of your
2 book and you wrote an inscription in it. Do you remember that?
3 A. If that was in the winter or spring of 2002, it could be true. I
4 published the book "Al Qaeda, The Green Comintern Against The
5 Judeo-Christian Civilisation." I'm proud of that book. It is a part of
6 the congress library in Washington, and it wasn't sent there by me. I
7 believed Mr. Borovcanin to be interested in that topic, as I was, and this
8 was simply a gesture on my part.
9 Q. My last question had to do with your statement to the Prosecutor.
10 That part is on page 258 in the English. You said "If Ljubisa did
11 anything then I should be accused as well and I have nothing to hide."
12 Those were your words on the occasion of that interview. What was your
13 reason for saying that.
14 A. During those 40 some hours that I spent in the field, I believe
15 there was not a trace of such a possibility. If this man were any
16 different, I would never have asked him for such a big favour and I
17 wouldn't have spent time with him. I can state in full responsibility
18 here before Their Honours that if he did anything bad, committed any crime
19 during the time we were there, please by all means keep me here and let us
20 try to establish what happened there positively.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. I have no further questions.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.
23 Mr. Krgovic?
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Petrovic.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. My name is Dragan Krgovic and together with David Josse, I appear
3 on behalf of General Gvero, and on behalf of my client's defence I wanted
4 to ask you a few questions. We speak the same language. However, I will
5 do my utmost not to overlap, the same applied to Mr. Lazarevic's
6 questioning. Therefore, please observe the same rules before you start to
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Krgovic please
9 speak closer to the microphone? Thank you.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Is this better for the interpreters?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Yes.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Petrovic, a clarification, please. When answering one of
14 Mr. Lazarevic's questions on page 7, lines 22 and 23, you described the
15 Dutch soldier who was almost two metres tall, you said that he was
16 frightened. Was that an irony? We who speak the same language understand
17 the nuance, but it is probably not reflected in the transcript. Can you
18 explain that in more detail, what your impression was of his appearance
19 and behaviour?
20 A. I have to thank you for that, since I said in inverted commas. I
21 said that he was beside himself, he was very frightened, and but I meant
22 that ironically. I was being cynical. You can see the footage for
23 yourself and you realise what I had in mind. It was just another
24 illustration of my general impression that I did not see a single
25 frightened Dutch soldier. I saw Dutch soldiers working, trying to
1 evacuate those people and cooperating with the Serbs. If someone is
2 afraid, that person behaves differently. There was a Dutch soldier
3 drinking milk. If you're terrified, you don't drink or eat.
4 Q. I agree, Mr. Petrovic. To move on to a different topic, when you
5 provided your statement you mentioned that on one of those two days in
6 Bratunac you met two people in the street. Can you tell me -- well, they
7 seem to have been journalists. Can you tell us who they were?
8 A. Now you see why it's good for me to have this piece of paper here.
9 It is from that period. I wrote down The Independent, Peter Block was
10 there with Braco Grubacic. Actually I meant to say The Independent, The
11 Independent, the British daily. He was with Braco Grubacic I wrote down
12 the title of the text published on the 21st of July; although, I believe
13 he published some even prior to that date. The title was "Mass Slaughter
14 in a Bosnian Field, Knee Deep in Blood." Page 46.
15 Those were the two men I encountered. We greeted each other,
16 since I knew Braco. He is my work mate.
17 Q. You mentioned Braco Grubacic. He was an owner and editor of a
18 magazine called V.I.P. Daily News. Can you tell us what sort of a
19 magazine that is?
20 A. It's not a real magazine. It's a specialised edition for
21 foreigners in Belgrade. You have it in Zagreb, in Sarajevo, and
22 everywhere else now, that kind of thing, giving reliable information, a
23 digest of important information so that any foreign person can extract the
24 most important things, and the clients of various businessmen who happen
25 to be in Serbia and the reputation of this VIP magazine is very high.
1 It has a very good reputation. And proof of this is that Braco
2 Grubacic throughout the war was probably one of the most-interviewed Serbs
3 by the western media. So what he said in analytical terms was considered
4 to be of high quality.
5 Q. And the information he gave was reliable, was it?
6 A. Yes. They were thought to be reliable, and I read some of his
7 articles, not all of them of course, but I can say that they are at a very
8 high level.
9 Q. May I now have 6D195, please, Exhibit 6D195?
10 Mr. Petrovic, this is an issue of that magazine. It is dated the
11 31st of July 1995. Are we talking about the same publication?
12 A. Yes, but I haven't read this particular article.
13 Q. All I wanted was for you to confirm that this publication and that
14 it deals with the person that you saw in Bratunac?
15 A. Yes. It's now changed its address and is now on Trg Republike or
16 Republic Square.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. I don't need the document any more.
18 I'm going to move on to another area now. You touched upon that
19 during the examination-in-chief. We saw here, we saw your film, your
20 footage, and I'm especially interested in your stay in Srebrenica the
21 following day. It's the film the 14th of July during the day?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now I looked at how Srebrenica appeared and how you filmed it and
24 the locations and the buildings in the centre, the main street and so on.
25 It is my impression watching that that Srebrenica, at least judging by
1 that footage, was fairly well preserved, that is to say I never saw any
2 freshly destroyed houses or visible traces of shelling anywhere.
3 Does that correspond to the actual state of affairs as you saw it
4 when you were there?
5 A. Yes. That -- well, since Srebrenica was something that the media
6 focused and just like Sarajevo of course, this is a much smaller place
7 than Sarajevo, but you remember that people said that 5 million shells
8 fell on Sarajevo. If that had been the case, there would have been
9 nothing left of Sarajevo whereas it still exists. Now, the interesting
10 thing here was well the operation didn't last too long either. I think it
11 started on the 5th or the 6th. But obviously, the defenders left
12 everything very quickly, and my footage shows traces of hits, the hits,
13 but they are old traces. You can see that on the texture of the surface
14 of the buildings.
15 But the important thing is this: In my footage, you can see
16 something that is not the general urban image or rather you can't see the
17 same thing that you can see in Sarajevo or Zagreb. Already in July, those
18 people had -- had already collected all the firewood they needed for the
19 winter and winter wasn't to arrive, it was in two or three months' time.
20 So they were diligent people. And had there been any serious shooting and
21 serious fighting, I would not have been able to film it in that state
22 because there are many buildings that were intact, nothing wrong with
24 Q. You reported from Vukovar and the battle ground throughout
25 Yugoslavia, and you know what a town that has been heavily shelled and
1 destroyed looked like. Now, Srebrenica, the way you saw it, does it look
2 like a town that was shelled by hundreds of grenades for many, many days?
3 Did it have that appearance? Shells, mines, anything like that.
4 A. Since I arrived three days after that, it would be impossible to
5 record an atmosphere like that. What I want to say is that I saw no new
6 traces apart from the ones I showed which dated back two or three years.
7 Q. So all reports to the effect that such a large number of shells
8 fell on Srebrenica would be a sheer lie?
9 A. As a professional journalist, if I were in an editorial office
10 that published that and then appeared in Srebrenica I would be -- have
11 been ashamed to show my face in Srebrenica, had that been the case.
12 Q. In response to questions from the Prosecution, and this was
13 recorded on page -- just a moment, please. Let me find it -- 102 and 103,
14 you described having seen, when you visited Zeleni Jadar and Srebrenica,
15 that you saw traces of fresh shelling and that you saw some fire, that
16 there was some fire burning. Where were those locations?
17 You described them to the Prosecutor, you said there were things
18 that were still on fire. So where did you see that? What location was
19 that where you saw that?
20 A. When you want to go from Srebrenica to Zeleni Jadar, and the
21 factory there, then you would take the serpentine road, and it's a very
22 high inclination, and it's near that factory somewhere, two next door
23 houses at some check-point perhaps or some crossroads or junction. I
24 can't remember the details but it was several kilometres away. I don't
25 know how far Zeleni Jadar is from the town, but certainly quite a few
2 So it's -- it's in the direction of where the Serb army was
3 burgeoning and they were the defence lines that were speedily left and
4 they took to the forest, the Muslim fighters, took to the forests, so I
5 just -- that was the only location where I could film some fire. But in
6 town, there were no houses on fire or anything like that. There was
7 something else. I saw something else in -- and that was people fleeing
8 from the houses and general chaos in the flats, and I came across some
9 people like that on the street. But otherwise, the town was in good
11 Q. I didn't see on that footage any traces of glass, shattered glass,
12 glass from shattered windows or anything like that. Did you happen to
13 notice anything like that perhaps, something that your camera didn't
15 A. Well, had I seen something like that, then just like any
16 journalist, I would have seen that, and I would have stepped on glass
17 because glass, when you see shattered glass, then you can think that there
18 had been wartime destruction but there was no shattered glass, broken
19 glass, or anything from some recent explosion or anything like that.
20 Q. What I noticed was this: There were quite a few windows who had
21 some plastic foil over them covering them, some nylon sheeting or
23 A. Well, that was probably from 1992-93, the war, and I remember when
24 I was in Israel, as soon as there was the danger of an attack, then the
25 windows would be taped across, and that would avoid the glass causing any
1 damage but I'm not quite sure what you meant with your question about the
3 Q. You said you were impressed by the fact or you noticed that there
4 was this nylon sheeting over the windows.
5 A. Yes. That was very noticeable in Srebrenica, for example, and of
6 course it wasn't the Serbs who put that up in the space of two days, the
7 ones who returned to their flats.
8 Q. Mr. Petrovic, yesterday you discussed something with the
9 Prosecutor, the article that you published in fact after you returned to
10 Belgrade, and I wanted to ask you a couple of questions linked to that
11 article so might we have the next exhibit, P469, put up on e-court,
13 And may we see page 2 of that article, please? In English, it is
14 page 2 and 3. It begins at the bottom of page 2 and goes on to page 3.
15 Mr. Petrovic, I followed with great attention the answer you gave
16 to the Prosecutor with respect to the source of your information for this
17 article, and you said that for most of the statements you make in the
18 article and what you say in the article, you had statements from eye
19 witnesses. Now, analysing this article, I came across two pieces of
20 information for which you did not give any source, which seemed to be a
21 little different from the rest of your articles. That's my impression.
22 Now, reading this as a layman, if I can say that, and you know
23 this better than I, but usually when you write an article in most cases to
24 give meat to the bones of the article, then you say something a bit
25 bombastic perhaps, you make a dramatic conclusion or something like that.
1 You give a strong impression or you give perhaps a journalistic
2 speculation. Now, reading your articles, when you worked for other
3 magazines, that seemed to me to be your style.
4 A. Let me first say that it's easy for Wolf Blitzer to -- well, you
5 noticed that very well, that part of the text is a little different from
6 the rules governing a general report. I could have made it -- put it
7 between the lines or in an inserted section. Now, we don't have the same
8 culture of information as you do elsewhere. That is to say politicians in
9 our countries have not become accustomed to being a citizen service, so
10 it's much more difficult to be a good journalist in such societies. Now,
11 on the basis of the many pieces of information that I had from earlier
12 periods and so on, I made a compilation of --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls what's the problem?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection, I just don't think the record is
15 clear at all as to really what part of the article we are talking about.
16 We've gone on for about a page. He's talking about "I could have put this
17 bit between the lines," and my friend has been talking about a section and
18 we have some page references, but I think for the record it could be
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Nicholls is --
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I still haven't come to that. I
22 intend to come to it in just a moment.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Now I think we need to get back to
24 Mr. Petrovic and re-establish the link because we interrupted him maybe a
25 little bit, in an unorthodox manner. But anyway, are you in a position to
1 continue from where we interrupted you, Mr. Petrovic?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that. Please go ahead.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was saying, the basic thing is
5 that you notice this very well, that that part of the text, the part of
6 the text that you're interested in, because the name Gvero is mentioned
7 here, is a little different from the rest of the article. I wanted to
8 supplement it and give it a new dimension or a different dimension for the
9 readers' benefit. And that is the result of the various information
10 sources I had before, with respect to Republika Srpska and so on. I was
11 probably one of the few journalists in Serbia who spoke about that from
12 time to time.
13 Let me repeat again, since 2003 [as interpreted], Milosevic
14 forbade the Belgrade media to give out detailed information from Republika
15 Srpska, let alone make an RTS programme, Radio Television Serbia or
16 anything like that. Now, this interview was conducted by Milomir Maric
17 and so he released the text.
18 Q. Here you say it seems, it would appear. So in this part of the
19 article you put all the people from the army of Republika Srpska and you
20 place them in the Supreme Command here.
21 A. Could you zoom in to that portion of the text? I can't read it.
22 Q. [Microphone not activated]. The left-hand side. It says, "it
23 seems," "it appears that."
24 A. Is that to do with the definitive abolition of the enclave, "it
25 seems that" -- I see. I've found it.
1 Q. Can we move up a bit, please? See the upper half of the article?
2 It's page 3 of the English.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have page 3. Thank you.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Yes. You put the Supreme Command, you mix apples and oranges?
6 A. Yes, I do I mix apples and oranges. Is that what you mean? There
7 is no place for civilians there, Krajisnik, Plavsic, Koljevic, but I think
8 that Karadzic is among them there, that he belongs there.
9 Q. I'm going to show you another exhibit now to explain who made up
10 the Supreme Command. Can we see Exhibit P422, please? This is also
11 numbered 725. This is the Official Gazette of the army of Republika
12 Srpska dated the 29th of November 1994. May we have page 2 of this
13 document on our screens, please?
14 Now, may we zoom in to article 3, please? And it is page 3 for
15 the English.
16 Mr. Petrovic, here we have the composition of the Supreme Command,
17 the president, as the Supreme Commander, the vice presidents, the
18 president of the assembly, the Prime Minister. May we see a little lower
19 down, the lower portion, thank you, the Defence Minister and the Internal
20 Affairs Minister.
21 Now what I want to say is this, and you agree with me, that this
22 was guess work on your part about the composition and about all these
23 events which were -- I mean the article, your article. To put a bit of
24 meat on the bones of your article, as you journalists like to say. Now,
25 let's go back to Exhibit P469 now, please. Page 2. And in English it is
1 to be found on page 9. It's a separate part. And underlined, bold
2 letters, where you talk about the appearance of Fikret Abdic, that
3 phenomenon. So that's the other thing that seems to appear a little
4 different from the general way in which you write your article, and for
5 the same reasons, that's why you introduced that part, for the same
6 reasons as you've just explained to us, right?
7 A. I can tell you that I wouldn't do the same thing now. I see here
8 or rather when I compare this to the previous document, I see some
9 differences. I mention Milovanovic, Gvero, and Tolimir, and we are in
10 agreement that they were not members of that body. That is clear as day.
11 Nothing needs to be proven there. My mistake. I agree.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. I have no further questions and I thank
13 you for your time. Your Honours this concludes my cross-examination.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Krgovic.
15 Is there re-examination, Mr. Nicholls?
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I think there will be, Judge, a short one.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, how short?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd rather take the break now. I want to look for
19 one document. And it will probably be a few minutes.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll have a short break now. 25
21 minutes. Thank you.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
1 Q. I just have a few questions for you?
2 A. [In English] Yes, sir.
3 Q. First of all, my friend, Mr. Lazarevic, asked you about the blue
4 vest that we saw in one of the photo stills. And you were able to say
5 that you believed it was not a DutchBat vest. I want to go back to a part
6 of your article and ask you a question about it. This is on page 5 in the
7 English of Exhibit 469. I'll wait for that to come up. Maybe I can just
8 read it to you to speed things up. "The Dutch soldiers 'captured in
9 Potocari,' were walking around bringing water, pushing old people in
10 wheelbarrows and conferring with Serbs on what to do next. It is true
11 that they handed over to the Serbs their quality blue helmets and flak
12 jackets, pistols, caps and some equipment as war spoils."
13 So my question is really very simply, can you really tell just
14 from that still of the flak jacket whether it was a DutchBat one that was
15 handed over or a different type?
16 A. [Interpretation] If you look at his jacket, if you look at the
17 flak jacket, you will see -- well, those who were in a war knows that
18 there are several kinds. This one is a very modest, thin jacket. I
19 personally have a far-thicker flak jacket given to me by a French TV
20 station when we went in the field. The Dutch soldiers had the heavier
21 bullet-proof vests. This is not a quality flak jacket. If you go back to
22 the still you'll see that it's quite thin. That is why I believe it
23 didn't come from the Dutch.
24 However, a lot of time has passed and I can't say any more. In
25 any case, experts would be able to tell you. There are several types of
1 vests, but this is not the Kevlar one which can actually stop bullets. A
2 larger calibre bullet would easily go through this one.
3 The source I'm trying to say is that it's probably a different
5 Q. Okay. My friend also asked you some questions about number of
6 children and the ages of people in Srebrenica, Potocari and you gave some
7 of your views on demographics. I want to show a clip from the video, this
8 is 2054, the raw footage, at 3 minutes 28.9 seconds.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. NICHOLLS:
11 Q. We saw there, you asking that woman questions about her -- how old
12 her baby was and how many children she had. I'd ask you about that. And
13 now but first go to another section of your article, that's also on page 5
14 where you talk about this same topic. It's on the top of page 5 in the
15 English. Demographers will surely find it interesting the fact that there
16 were approximately 10.000 children among the refugees, and out of that
17 figure, around 8.000 are under three years old.
18 "The war children," as they say, "This is what they really do,
19 they are -- I can't pronounce probably hojas [phoen], the motherfuckers,
20 they are completely surrounded. No food at all. They keep complaining
21 but they go on procreating. Is that normal? Would you believe that?
22 Now, you tell me what kind of religion is that, Islam? They made one more
23 corps of soldiers right there in the middle of Srebrenica who will be
24 after us in 15 to 20 years. Just let them stay as far away from us as
25 possible, my friend, the motherfuckers."
1 And then in the next paragraph you talk about a 14 year old girl
2 with children.
3 The baby we saw in the clip and the quote from your article, is
4 that what you're talking about as demographic warfare those children were
5 born for needs of war?
6 A. I quoted an opinion I heard in the field. If you look at things
7 geopolitically or politically or demographically, I can confirm again that
8 it was quite normal, after having seen the scene, I concluded what I
9 repeated here today. If you are besieged and threatened with death and
10 appearing not having enough to eat, then if I compare that to what I saw
11 there, and the number of children I saw, that was the first thing that
12 came to my mind, and I still maintain that it is not something ordinary to
13 have so many children under such conditions. However, you can call that
14 whatever you want. But ask the demographers.
15 Q. Is there anything in your article whatsoever to show that you
16 disagree with that quote, that you chose to include in this section about
18 A. What I told you is what I think. The part you quoted is a quote.
19 And the entire text is a documentary news report. My task was not to make
20 conclusions. My task was to show the atmosphere, the situation which can
21 be felt if you watch something on TV, but you cannot grasp that from
22 reading a text. Some of my political opponents held this against me but
23 from the point of good journalism this is an exceptionally good text since
24 I used the so-called verism, the veracity reporting. I tried to convey
25 the atmosphere of the moment. And this is what I tried to do as best I
1 could for the public. I did my utmost.
2 At that moment, I had no religious reasons to write about that.
3 That was merely a document of the situation I found myself in, the
4 contemporary or present history in its full meaning. It is a text that
5 will stay for generations. That's how I see journalism.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Nicholls. Judge Kwon?
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE KWON: Before deciding to put a question or not,
10 Mr. Nicholls, can I see the segment which will show the French ration box?
11 It appears 24 something.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour, of course.
13 [Videotape played]
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we can stop here.
15 Mr. Petrovic, you said yesterday, didn't you, that this part was
16 filmed before Srebrenica.
17 A. [In English] Of course.
18 JUDGE KWON: But you saw didn't you that the date of this ration
19 box was June of 1997.
20 A. This is expiry date.
21 JUDGE KWON: Okay. That was my mistake. Thank you.
22 A. And if I can help you, this is to remind you, this is what I
23 brought from the front from Majevica.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 A. They were giving to the God's warriors.
1 JUDGE KWON: I'm done. Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrovic, we have come to the end of your
3 testimony. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, but also on behalf of the
4 Tribunal, I would like to thank you for having cooperated with the
5 Tribunal and come over to give testimony. And on behalf of everyone
6 present here, we wish you a safe journey back home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May I
8 address myself to you very briefly?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was thinking about this. I still
11 owe you something because everybody is here to unravel the truth. I have
12 a proposal to make to your Tribunal, because a few years ago, I
13 interviewed a colonel who was called Brunel [phoen] and who worked for the
14 French intelligence services, and he has provided me with new information
15 about Srebrenica. And up until now, I have never seen that anybody has
16 shown any interest for this, which I deem is of vital importance.
17 In the interview I published, I also have the text in French, this
18 gentleman confirmed that around the spring of 1996, 1996, i.e. several
19 months after the fight for Srebrenica, a group, as he said, a group of 100
20 or so combatants, Muslim combatants, arrived fully armed and reached the
21 American Tuzla compound. Colonel Brunel was present as well as his
22 British colleagues. The Americans did not enable him to be present during
23 the interview.
24 These people were transported or were flown to the United States
25 afterwards. I know exactly where these people live in the United States.
1 So would this be of any assistance to you or not?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not the right persons to communicate this
3 information to. I would suggest that you communicate it to the Office of
4 the Prosecutor or to any other person you may wish, but I don't think
5 that -- or rather I am sure that we cannot either comment on what you've
6 stated or act upon it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope you have understood me fully.
8 I hope you have understood that you would like to unravel the ultimate
9 truth. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, documents? Mr. Nicholls?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, number 40 -- excuse me, 469, which is
14 the article, Mr. Petrovic wrote a few days after the events, and the other
15 exhibit I would like to tender is not quite ready yet. It's the
16 transcript of the Studio B footage broadcast. Now, it's synced with the
17 video, but I've spoken to my friends on the Borovcanin team and they have
18 told me they think there may be some errors in it and that we should talk
19 about. So there is no objection, I think, to putting it in but we'll wait
20 and have sort it out and that's -- that will be coming later.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not tendering it now then.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: No. Because I think we may as well get it
23 perfected first. So at this point I just wanted to put you on notice
24 about that. It's just the article.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objection? No objection. So document 65
1 ter 469 is admitted. Mr. Lazarevic, do you wish to tender any document?
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one, Your Honour, it's Srebrenica civil
3 protection staff list of population and household numbers. It's numbered
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection?
6 MR. NICHOLLS: No, no objection.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any objection from the other
8 Defence teams? None. So it is so admitted. Make sure that the number is
9 correct, Madam Registrar, please.
10 Any further? Mr. Krgovic you don't have any? All right. So that
11 closes the Petrovic -- yes, Mr. Josse?
12 MR. JOSSE: Could we mention one, I think it was a translation
13 rather than a transcription error? It's an obvious error, and I'm
14 grateful to my learned friends who sit in front to bring it to our
15 attention. It was at page 30.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
17 MR. JOSSE: Line 13 where Mr. Krgovic was cross-examining the
18 witness. And it's obviously 1993.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Instead of 2003, we should have
21 All right. That concludes the Petrovic evidence.
22 Now, we move to the next one. Erin Gallagher.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, good afternoon.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: The subject of Ms. Gallagher's testimony was the
1 Muslim -- what we called the Muslim ID book and the Defence have been
2 working with us, and I believe we've reached a stipulation on that book.
3 So I don't believe there is any need, as I think you pointed out, for a
4 witness on something that is self explanatory that we all agree on.
5 And so I don't see any disagreements and I know there has been a
6 lot of hard work so I think we're okay there.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That is nice music for our ears. However, apart
8 from asking for a confirmation of this from the Defence teams, we would
9 also like to know what's going to happen next, and if what's going to
10 happen next will affect the deadline we have established for the end of
11 the Prosecution case on which we are not prepared to budge. First of all,
12 is Mr. Manning available to start tomorrow, for example?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. He is, as you know, from Australia. When we
14 saw that the Defence estimates were going to be undercut, we tried to see
15 if we could move him but given his schedule and the -- how this was
16 planned, that we could not get him here. We've -- we also have Colonel
17 Kingori for after Dean Manning, we tried to see if we could get the
18 colonel in. He was scheduled to testify in the Sarajevo state court today
19 and -- but he was not able to because of a visa issue, so -- but he will
20 be here next week. So next week looks good. As you can imagine we've
21 been a bit conservative. We didn't want to jam this week too much and
22 have the next week bump into a situation where we would have to bring
23 somebody back after the holiday.
24 So next week looks good but tomorrow I don't have a witness for
25 you, but we only have Mr. Butler and Mr. Vasic for January, so we see no
1 problem in ending when you say. Though, the one wild card is the length
2 of the cross-examination of Mr. Butler, but I think even with a very long
3 cross-examination we should be in pretty good shape.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You are a good lawyer, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I better sit down.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I need to discuss with my colleagues.
7 Madam, my apologies. I didn't see you.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have just heard that
9 Mr. Kingori is a witness before the Sarajevo state court. I wonder
10 whether we will get the Sarajevo testimony because I'm sure it has to do
11 with Srebrenica.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that? We are not in a
13 position to answer -- give an answer to that.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to clarify. He came all the way to Europe
15 and had a problem with Croatia Airlines and KLM airlines, and they held
16 him in Amsterdam for a whole day and he missed his testimony date and then
17 they deported him back to Kenya. So I hope he'll come. He says he's
18 going to, and I guarantee he won't have that problem with us.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Our refuge -- our port of refuge has always been
21 Mr. Blaszczyk. Is there anything left for him to --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Actually, Mr. President, there are two other
23 important exhibit books that we have been talking with the -- all the --
24 our colleagues about. They are similar to the ID book. They speak for
25 themselves. But if they are going to be in contention, it would be -- it
1 may be a good idea for you to have an investigator to help explain to you
2 how they were put together. We haven't had the ability to talk in depth
3 about those books with the Defence, whether or not we'll have -- we will
4 be able to reach an agreement or not.
5 I made a brief oral submission on the duty officer notebook but
6 that was mostly related to the issue of whether or not you wanted the
7 teachers edition with our comments or not. But there is a little, a more
8 complicated issue that I have not heard from the Defence on, that not all
9 the information in that book -- in that exhibit that we have put together,
10 is information that comes from trial evidence or evidence of an expert.
11 Some of it is hearsay that a -- our investigator picked up. For example,
12 our investigator is told by a witness that their handwriting was on such
13 and such a page. And it's our view that that kind of evidence is
14 allowable as hearsay. I don't know if they even object. I don't know if
15 they even disagree with the conclusion about the handwriting.
16 If they don't, then it can come in. If they do, we may have a
17 legal issue that we could discuss with you and/or that the investigator
18 could be questioned on the particular point, though the investigators are
19 coming as third persons in this case because most of them weren't involved
20 in person with this sorts of information. So there are those kinds --
21 that issue on that book.
22 We have another exhibit which is very similar to the Muslim ID
23 book, and that's of identifications of many of these faces and soldiers
24 you've seen along the road. Many of those IDs have been made in this
25 Court and that book reflects those IDs so that you can see it in one
1 sitting, though like I just described, some of those IDs are hearsay in
2 the field IDs that have not come into court. We did this deliberately
3 because we believe the rules of this institution allow that kind of
4 hearsay and to bring in every person that said, yes, that's me in the
5 video, would have added many, many more witnesses. So that's another
6 issue. I don't know if there is any objections from the Defence on that.
7 They've had this book for many months. We have some updated
8 identifications which we would like to go over with them on to see if
9 there are any issues there.
10 But those are the two issues that I can think of and of course,
11 Mr. Zivanovic has filed a motion regarding Dean Manning, a bit on the late
12 side but that is an issue that I hope to have a written response for
13 everyone tonight or tomorrow morning, which is another issue that can be
14 dealt with. But aside from those issues, I don't think I have any
15 testimonial issues to take up.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Leaving apart the Zivanovic or Popovic motion
17 relating to manning, we are awaiting your response to that and it will
18 need to be decided before Mr. Manning starts giving evidence on Monday.
19 Is it possible there are still two hours, more than two hours,
20 until 7.00 and a whole day tomorrow. Is it possible for you to agree to
21 have meetings and thrash these outstanding matters relating to the
22 documents that you have mentioned and give us a clear picture, either
23 tomorrow or Monday, if you think it's more feasible on Monday, so that we
24 know where we stand and you know where you stand, following which, if
25 necessary, we will have proper submissions formally or, in writing or
1 orally, so that we can hand down a decision.
2 But I suggest that you make use of this time like we are going to
3 make use. If we are not sitting tomorrow, we are I think in a position to
4 hand down three or four decisions tomorrow. We will be working, but we
5 suggest that you do the same, and I'm not hinting that you wouldn't be
6 working otherwise but that you try and get together and sort these
7 outstanding matters that you have amongst you or between you.
8 Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to
10 address one of the exhibits referred to by my colleague which is the
11 operational logbook. We have had the opportunity of already providing
12 some submissions to the Trial Chamber in this regard. This is one where
13 indeed we will have difficulty in reaching an agreement, and my colleague
14 referred to one of the aspects of this exhibit, this proposed exhibit, to
15 which we disagree. In that operational logbook, there are big brackets
16 that are identified in colour which identifies a specific part of the book
17 with the handwriting of a witness.
18 If this was only based on the expert witness, for example, and it
19 would be for practical reasons we let the Trial Chamber know that this
20 bracket refers to what was testified by the expert witness, maybe there
21 could be some agreement. The problem is that these brackets that have
22 been included in the book are based on a number of different sources of
23 evidence, from the expert witness, from the expert witness report that we
24 have received, from the testimony of witnesses which have appeared before
25 you, and also from statements of witnesses who have not appeared before
1 you. And it is because it's a mix of sources of evidence that we say that
2 these are conclusions which should not be brought before the Trial
3 Chamber, at least until the end of the trial, when they make their
4 submissions. So this is one where we will have difficulty agreeing. We
5 can discuss but it will be difficult to agree.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. That's a further
7 justification of having the meeting like the one I suggested. On the
8 other hand I wish to add something. I understood the Prosecution, I think
9 it was -- I don't know whether it was Mr. Thayer or you or Mr. Nicholls
10 who dealt with this before, but the understanding was that it if there
11 were difficulties on your part, and we did not opt for a preference, then
12 the Prosecution was prepared to hand a clean translation. That's how I
13 understood the submission of the Prosecution last time. What was being
14 offered, and I remember you intervening, saying, "No, I had not requested
15 that," but I think it was Mr. Haynes was also mentioned as a person that
16 was directly interested and who had made some kind of call on the
17 Prosecution to have these translated. So please do meet. We are open for
18 all submissions that you may have, and it would be beneficial for everyone
19 if on Monday we have a clear position, either common or a divided one.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We have discussed a little bit further, and the
22 previous discussion that we had on this issue is still very fresh in our
23 minds, and we are pleased that the issue has come up again. We suggest,
24 again, as strongly as we did earlier on, that you meet and try and come to
25 some kind of an agreement on this. If you don't agree, we would perfectly
1 understand and we would also then be in a position to give you our
2 position on that. I used "position" twice in the same sentence. I
4 The other thing, Mr. McCloskey, is we think it would be
5 appropriate at this time, since you have dropped a further witness, to
6 have a revised outline of the remaining testimony, the remaining
7 witnesses, schedule of witnesses, like the one you -- or the previous two
8 ones that you have supplied, right up to the end of the Prosecution case.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And we'll get that done, and
10 it's nice to know that it's very easy. It's Dean Manning and Kingori next
11 week, and then January 10th it's Mr. Butler and then Mr. Vasic a week or
12 two after that. And we'll get that down to you clearly.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. One moment.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. There is one further
17 issue since we have time that we believe we should raise with the Trial
18 Chamber at this time, and this has to do with the scheduling order which
19 has been rendered by the Trial Chamber concerning the end of the case and
20 the end of the presentation of the Prosecution's case.
21 Pursuant to the schedule which was issued by the Trial Chamber, we
22 would have to file and submit our Rule 65 ter summaries by the 31st of
23 March and the first defence would begin on the 1st of June. We have been
24 having been doing lots of discussions, both with the Prosecution and
25 amongst ourselves, and we believe that we would like a delay for the
1 submission of the Rule 65 ter summaries because a lot of the work that we
2 do in preparation for the Defence case is work that needs to be done
3 before these summaries are filed. So we are not ready at this time to
4 provide the Trial Chamber with a definite proposal, but we would like to
5 know how you would like us to submit this, whether in oral arguments or
6 whether in writing. But basically our position is that we would like
7 simply to -- start the 1st of June is a very good date.
8 We have already begun working on our respective Defences, and we
9 can meet this calendar and it's very good for us. Just the filing of the
10 65 ter summaries could be delayed to one month before that date. That
11 gives us the time to investigate and give much better summaries to the
12 Prosecution and the Trial Chamber. So that's one issue we would like to
13 raise, and also the timing of the expert reports is something we would
14 like to address at some point also in relation to this. So it's not the
15 timing with the dates for the beginning of the Defence, 1 June is very
16 good for us, it's just the timing of when we have to file specific
17 information, either to give it to the Prosecution or to file it officially
18 before the Trial Chamber. Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I suggest that you also deal with this
20 when you meet with the Prosecution today or tomorrow, and/or tomorrow,
21 because the timeliness of the filing of the Rule 65 ter lists is important
22 not only to yourself and to us but also to the Prosecution that have to do
23 their homework as well on it. So please discuss it and let us know what
24 the respective positions are.
25 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. President we just thought
1 it would be appropriate to let you know that this is something we are
2 looking into with the Prosecution already and we will continue to do so.
3 Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. McCloskey?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. As I thought and got reminded by
6 Ms. Stewart, Alistair Graham is also out there. We have been speaking
7 about him with the Borovcanin team. I'm not sure we need to call him, but
8 they may want to cross-examine him. This is something we have been
9 talking about, but we need to resolve that as well. And we also have
10 recently found a witness -- a very, very short witness. And so we'll be
11 providing a motion to add a very short witness on to our list for January
12 and that will be coming very soon.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I saw you standing, Mr. Josse.
14 MR. JOSSE: It was related to the matter that Mr. Bourgon
15 mentioned, but bearing in mind how Your Honour thought we should proceed,
16 I wasn't going to say anything at this particular juncture. Clearly, the
17 Defence collectively will revert to the Trial Chamber if no agreement can
18 be reached with the Prosecution.
19 Could I briefly also whilst I'm on my feet mention Alistair Graham
20 only in this context. I recall that when he was last before the Chamber,
21 I for one on behalf of our client said that I would want him to return.
22 Could I make it absolutely clear that unless the -- really the Borovcanin
23 team want him to return, we are not asking him to return simply for the
24 two or three questions that we might otherwise want to put to him. I hope
25 I've made that clear.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you so much, Mr. Josse. Mr. Lazarevic,
2 I saw you also standing.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, just to confirm that we had discussion with
4 the Prosecution, but it was a while ago and then after that we simply
5 forgot this topic. But I can assure the Trial Chamber that we will get in
6 touch with the Prosecution and that you will have our position on this
7 issue very soon.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you need a chairman for the meetings, to
9 prepare an agenda? Because it's growing by the minute.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, I believe that we'll manage to resolve this
11 on our own.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All right.
13 Mr. McCloskey?
14 So that brings today's sitting to an end.
15 We will be at your disposal tomorrow. We will all be here. So if
16 you encounter difficulties and you need to have a sitting at any time for
17 any time tomorrow, we are at your disposal. Thank you.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.01 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of
20 December, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.