Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18844

 1                          Thursday, 6 December 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam.  And good afternoon to you and to

10    everyone else.  All the accused are here.  From the Defence teams I only

11    notice the absence of Mr. Ostojic.  Present for the Prosecution,

12    Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Nicholls.

13            Ready to roll?  Okay.  So, Mr. Lazarevic, have you thought about

14    reducing or expanding your cross-examination?

15            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, good afternoon first, Your Honour.  I was

16    having a lot of thoughts, and Your Honours would be probably be pleased to

17    hear that I significantly reduced my cross-examination.  With the

18    assistance of our witness, I believe that I'll be able to finish it in one

19    hour.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  That's good.  Thank you for that.  Let's proceed,

21    please.

22                          WITNESS:  ZORAN PETROVIC [Resumed]

23                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                          Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 18845

 1            THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, sir.

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Mr. Petrovic, you heard what I promised the Bench.  In order to

 4    meet my promise, I would kindly ask you for your cooperation and to try

 5    and answer as briefly as possible, if possible with a mere yes or no.  If

 6    you don't know or if you don't remember, please say so.  These are fully

 7    valid answers.  In case something is unclear please ask me and I will

 8    reformulate my question.

 9       A.   Very well.

10       Q.   Yesterday, we were discussing some events of the 13th of July in

11    the afternoon in Potocari, and we discussed certain members of the Dutch

12    Battalion wearing T shirts.  Do you remember where we left off so that I

13    could continue with my next question?

14       A.    [No audible response]

15       Q.   I can see you nodding.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   In order to get to that part of Potocari where the refugees were

18    and the Dutch Battalion members in T-shirts, you had to pass by the Dutch

19    base; is that correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   On passing by, you could see that there were Dutch soldiers inside

22    the base in full combat gather with helmets, flak jackets, rifles and

23    everything else?

24       A.   Yes.  And I can add that there were two types of Dutch soldiers at

25    that moment: some were without weapons - they are in the forefront, and

Page 18846

 1    others who were with weapons – they are in the background.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  On one of the shots from Potocari, which is part of

 3    the footage you made, we can see a Serb soldier in a blue flak jacket and

 4    he's addressed as Miki.  I just want to show you a photograph to remind

 5    you.  It is P0286 -- I apologise.  2986.  It is page 16.  It is a

 6    photograph marked with a C.  You'll see it on your screen.  I suppose you

 7    know which photograph specifically I'm referring to.  For the record, we

 8    are talking about the person on the right-hand side of the photograph with

 9    a blue flak jacket.

10    Having seen this lad and having seen that he's wearing a blue flak jacket,

11    can you tell us this:  At the moment you saw it, was it your conclusion

12    that this flak jacket had been taken from a member of the United Nations?

13       A.   Absolutely not, because of a personal experience; I had received

14    a similar flak jacket from a French TV station on previous occasions,

15    I didn’t have it with me in Srebrenica.  But it’s a banal detail.

16    I never thought it had been taken from anyone.

17   Q. Thank you.  Just one more thing.  When you went towards Potocari, do you

18    remember Mr. Borovcanin telling you that he needs to resolve something

19    that had to do with a bus theft?  Do you recall anything like that?

20       A.   I cannot recall anything that was formulated that way.  I know

21    there were some problems in the process of transporting of some 28.000

22    civilians, in my view they were being transported to Tuzla.  There were

23    dozens of buses and trucks there and you can see some of them on the

24    footage.  In any case, we were headed there and having arrived there, I

25    realised what it was that he needed to do.  He probably had to secure some

Page 18847

 1    water and the rest.  It was quite hot.  You can see the man in the jacket.

 2    He actually has a T-shirt.  I know he had to do something with water and

 3    civilians.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  We will come back to that topic.  This was merely a

 5    possible reference to a stolen bus.  Do you remember anything like that?

 6      A.   No, not a bus.  Something was stolen.  I think it was a water tank.

 7       Q.   We'll get to that topic.  Thank you.  Once in Potocari, and I can

 8    see that from the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, it is page 19, you

 9    said that alongside the road, you saw piles of items, bags, blankets,

10    items of clothing and such.  Do you remember that?

11       A.   Yes, when we arrived, when we came out of the vehicle, around the

12     entrance and in the part where we… where I saw for he first time such…

13    such a large number of people who had fled Srebrenica.  It was a

14    very striking image.  I've never seen so many items in one pile, in a

15    heap, and it was a clear indication of how poor they were.  A person

16    living in a city would actually never dream of wearing such things.  It

17    was quite a shock, although as a journalist I couldn't afford to be

18    shocked as I was doing my job.  However, I do believe that I reported on

19    it appropriately.

20       Q.   Thank you.  According to your statement, the Dutch and Serb

21    soldiers were assisting those people to reach the buses in as orderly a

22    fashion as possible.  This is page 20 of your statement in the English

23    version.  Did you tell that to the Prosecutor?

24       A.   Yes.  And perhaps I can add something.  If I were forced to do

25    something, if I were a soldier and I find myself disarmed and threatened,

Page 18848

 1    I certainly would not looked so relaxed.

 2       Q.   In the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, I found a sentence

 3    which attracted my attention.  It is on page 21.  You said that while you

 4    were there, you didn't see anyone being beaten, maltreated, abused or

 5    anything of that nature.  Can you confirm that today as well?

 6       A.   Yes.  If you have an image of a victor, as you saw him in any

 7    movies or on TV, it would be somewhat different from what I could see.  I

 8    didn't see a smile on Mr.  Borovcanin's face or on the faces of those

 9    people there.  I merely saw great fatigue.  However, I didn't hear a

10    single soldier address the people boarding those buses harshly.  My

11    thinking is such that I would certainly make a note of it in the text I

12    produced.

13       Q.   Thank you.  To go back to the topic which you touched upon before

14    I managed to reach it in the order of my questions, on that footage from

15    Potocari, as you also mention in your statement, page 21, there was a

16    problem with a water tank or a water truck there.  Could we please see

17    that part of your footage?  This is trial video Exhibit number P02047, the

18    number of the video is V 000-4458.

19                          [Videotape played]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think there is a problem.

21            THE WITNESS:  [In English] But I understood.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  No.  Wait, because we have to understand as well and

23    we need to see it again.

24            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.  I believe we have to see it again --

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Or to see it because I don't think we have seen

Page 18849

 1    anything basically.

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.  And it is highly important that we see one

 3    precise moment of this tape in order to identify certain person.

 4                          [Videotape played]

 5            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop here.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah but stop, I take it stop at the frame, which is

 7    not the last one that we have seen and we keep on having it on the screen

 8    because otherwise --

 9            MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, we may be able to do this in Sanction,

10    if perhaps --

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  It will be also better, Mr. Nicholls, because what

12    we were seeing here doesn't have a counter, so we can't pinpoint the exact

13    location or the exact frame.

14                          [Videotape played]

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  For the record we stopped at 2 hours 28 minutes 32

16    seconds point 1.

17            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, and I have to express my gratitude to my

18    colleagues from the Prosecution.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  You are always so gentle, Mr. Lazarevic.

20            MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21       Q.   Mr. Petrovic, on this still, we can see on the left-hand side

22    Mr. Borovcanin, on the right-hand side we can see a member of the Dutch

23    Battalion obviously, and between the two we see two people.  I am trying

24    to focus on the two people between Mr. Borovcanin and the Dutch soldier.

25    My first question is this:  As you said, except for Mr. Borovcanin, you

Page 18850

 1    didn't know anyone else in Potocari.  Perhaps it's out of place but can

 2    you confirm to me that you don't know these two people between the two I

 3    mentioned earlier?

 4       A.   [Interpretation] Could I follow the text?  I don't see it.  I

 5    don't know when the interpreters are done.

 6            Yes.  My answer is that I don't know anyone else save for

 7    Mr. Borovcanin.  I have a comment, however, which may be of assistance.

 8    The two people in the middle have certain bands which were probably an

 9    indication from a previous operation or the ongoing operation.  Therefore,

10    they were not from Mr. Borovcanin's unit.  They could easily be told apart

11    by their emblem.

12            In the war in the former Yugoslavia, we used to call that the

13    local troops or those defending their home land, people who did not leave

14    the terrain from which they hailed.  Perhaps you could hear me say

15    something about water on the footage, and then I was interrupted,

16    indicating that I realised that there was a problem with water.  You can

17    see that on -- at the beginning of this part of the footage.

18       Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  You saved at least two

19    additional questions for me.  I'm trying to tell you to put to you that

20    the soldiers we saw wanted to take the water tank away, it was an UNPROFOR

21    water tank, they tried to have it towed away by the tractor as can be seen

22    on the footage and that that was the reason why the Dutch Battalion

23    members protested.  Does that correspond to what you remember about the

24    situation?

25       A.   Yes.  And there was a two metre tall Dutch soldier who seemed to

Page 18851

 1    be very frightened there, if I can say that.  Well, in inverted commas, he

 2    seems to be afraid of the Serbs.  Anyway, Mr. Borovcanin's intervention, I

 3    think, was successful because I don't have footage of when the tractor

 4    towed away the water tank.  As far as I remember, it stayed where it was,

 5    so I think that the agreement between Mr. Borovcanin and the Dutch soldier

 6    probably was -- succeeded.

 7       Q.   So from your testimony if I understood you correctly,

 8    Mr. Borovcanin went to see the soldiers and prevail upon them to leave the

 9    water tank there and not to tow it away and that that was what we were

10    looking at and what we saw, right?

11       A.   Yes.  That's how it appeared to me on the spot when I was there.

12       Q.   Thank you.  Just one more question about this event in Potocari or

13    these events in Potocari.  While you were there in Potocari, you did not

14    see or hear at any time that Mr. Borovcanin issued any orders to anybody;

15    is that correct?  Am I right in observing that?

16       A.   Yes, that is correct.

17       Q.   In your statement, when you spoke about Potocari and said that you

18    saw members of the Special Police Brigade there, and for reference that is

19    to be found on page 27 of your statement given to the Prosecutor, you said

20    you concluded that on the basis of the markings or insignia they had on

21    their sleeves.  Do you remember saying that?

22       A.   Yes.  The design that that unit wore as a marking was very

23    obvious.  You could always see it.  They were easily distinguishable from

24    others in the field and there were far fewer of them than others, say in

25    Potocari… As far as I remember, they were far fewer than the local people

Page 18852

 1    wearing uniforms.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  A couple of more questions and then we'll leave the

 3    subject of Potocari.  While you were there, you didn't see any act by

 4    which the males were separated, physically separated, from their families,

 5    from the women and children, you didn't see anyone pulling people aside,

 6    to one side or anything like that?

 7       A.   Absolutely not.  We arrived at about 2.30 on the 13th in the

 8    afternoon, and the only thing that could have happened was something that

 9    happened before I arrived.  Mr. Nicholls asked me that about the terrace,

10    the situation on the terrace, where the Muslims were sitting probably

11    separated earlier, but had they been separated at that moment, I would

12    have filmed that too.  So they were already on the terrace and were

13    already separated and I took some shots of that.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Now I noticed something in your statement to the

15    Prosecutor on page 32, that's the reference, I noticed that you were

16    surprised by the number of children there were between the ages of one and

17    three who were in Potocari when you arrived.  I'm sure you remember that

18    part of your statement and testimony.

19       A.   Well, my first association was when talking to the geopolitician

20    from France, the very renowned politician, Lacoste, who told me about the

21    demographic warfare that was going on or rather how you engage in

22    demographic warfare, that is to say large population increases in order to

23    reach your aims, your goals.  Now, I was rather shocked to see the number

24    of children there between the ages of one and three, three to four babies,

25    because we had been listening for the two previous years how people were

Page 18853

 1    dying of hunger almost, they didn't have enough to eat, so I thought that

 2    this was an unbelievable image to witness.

 3            You know how little children are all-- look nice and good looking

 4    children, these weren't children from Darfur, they weren't thin or

 5    anything, and that's what struck me because when I looked at some data and

 6    information later, there were some 5.000 to 6.000 children born from 1993

 7    to 1995, for example.

 8       Q.   Thank you for that answer.  But just to complete the transcript,

 9    on page 9, line 24, if I heard your answer, you said "We heard that people

10    were living -- were dying there," whereas can we clear that up?  On the

11    transcript it's said "They were dying of hunger"?

12       A.   No, no.  I wasn't there of course.  Some people were able to enter

13    with General Morillon but I wasn't in that kind on those kinds of terms

14    and American journalists entered too, but this was something that was

15    already known in public.  There were a lot of articles and stories told

16    about Srebrenica.

17            So if they said there was 40.000, a population of 40.000 and about

18    10.000 people bearing arms then 6, 7, or 8.000 which makes it a third of

19    the people, a third of the population, were new-born babies or very small

20    children.  So if we were to analyse that, then that would not be normal in

21    view of the tales being told about Srebrenica.

22       Q.   Perhaps the next exhibit that we are going to see will help us

23    resolve some of these things and depict them so that we can gain a true

24    image and true picture of what was happening there, and it's a document

25    dated the 11th of January 1995.  It was compiled by the municipal staff of

Page 18854

 1    civilian protection of Srebrenica, and it is a review of the population

 2    households, and I'd like now on e-court to have 4D127 shown, please.

 3            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Maybe we can zoom it a bit and just to show the

 4    witness the lower part of the documents.

 5       Q.   [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Petrovic, here we can gain an impression

 6    of the age structure here of the people, the population, and we will look

 7    at the second part of the document later on.  So in the last column on the

 8    right, we have the letter M, which means male, and at the top it says, up

 9    to the age of 18, and the figure there is 6.294.  Can you confirm that

10    that is so?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Now, in the upper part of this table, we have the column with the

13    gender or sex and it says Z or F for female, and the third column says or,

14    rather, fourth column says up to 18, 5.706.  Is that right?

15       A.   Yes.

16            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Could we now scroll the document to see the upper

17    part?  Thank you.

18       Q.   [Interpretation] And we have the upper table, where in the first

19    column it says, total number of population, 36.051.

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Now, since this is a document originating from the civilian

22    protection staff of Srebrenica and that we are dealing with the beginning

23    of 1995 and that of course there might be some deviations from this, but

24    regardless of all that, the situation was the following:  It shows that

25    almost -- almost more than -- perhaps more than a third of the Srebrenica

Page 18855

 1    population was below the age of 18.  Do you agree with my observation

 2    there?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Of course, the figure that you used, 7.000 or 8.000 children up to

 5    the age of three is not precise enough perhaps.

 6       A.   Well, certainly, it isn't.  But the impression was exceptionally

 7    strong.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to leave Potocari and move on to another

 9    area on that same day, the 13th, after Potocari, where, according to your

10    statement, you stayed for approximately half an hour to one hour and that

11    is on page 29 of your statement, in English, and then you said you set off

12    to Bratunac, and along the road to Kravica, Sandici and so on; is that

13    right?  Is that what you did?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   From your testimony, I gathered that along a section of the road,

16    and you called it the Kravica stream where there was that dilapidated

17    house and a meadow across the way, that on this broader part of the road

18    you once stopped and filmed the surrender of Muslims, as well as the

19    members of the Special Police Brigade who were there, is that right?

20       A.   Yes, to the best of my recollections.

21       Q.   And you filmed on that same occasion two young men wearing

22    uniforms, one with the insignia of the Special Brigade who says - you

23  remember that part - "Boro, let's change the rifle -- the pistol."  And then

24   you filmed the surrender, the stream, the young man and everything else.

25       A.   Yes.  All those scenes were filmed at that time.

Page 18856

 1       Q.   Thank you.  I'd like us now to look at another exhibit that we saw

 2    yesterday during your testimony, and that is P02986, page 52, please.  It

 3    is a photograph, photograph D [as interpreted].

 4            I said B, photograph B.  I see that there is a mistake in the

 5    transcript and that it says D.  So it should be B.

 6            You remember yesterday that you saw this same photograph and the

 7    Prosecutor was interested in something about the car.  Now I'm interested

 8    in something else.  When we look at this photograph now and when we see

 9    your footage, although I didn't want to go through all the footage, but

10    can we state that this was taken from a distance and using the facilities

11    you had you zoomed in from a distance to film this?

12       A.   Yes.  And let me remind everyone here in court that it's a camera

13    which is not for professional use.  It's a very weak camera, the ordinary

14    one, the number 8 type, 8-millimetre type as we call it.

15       Q.   I have two questions with respect to this photograph.  You didn't

16    come up close to them to be able to see who the person with the blue

17    helmet on was talking to Mr. Borovcanin.  You didn't come up close enough,

18    did you?

19       A.   No.  And when I looked through the camera I didn't notice anything

20    special and the scene before that, I was near the ditch by the road with

21    the young man who wanted to exchange his pistol with the other guy.  He

22    was very young so that's what drew my attention.  You know, a journalist

23    always wants to have an image to hold people's attention, but this was a

24    very banal and ordinary sort of scene.

25       Q.   Yes.  I just wanted to ask you whether you perhaps know the

Page 18857

 1    identity of this person or to what unit he belonged.  We can't see it on

 2    the basis of this photograph, but I'm just asking you whether you could

 3    say who that person could be?

 4       A.   No, I don't know the man.

 5       Q.   All right.  Fine.  Thank you.

 6            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honour at this point I will have to ask for

 7    the assistance again from my colleagues from the Prosecution, it seems

 8    that our Sanction system does not work, and I hope that Ms. Stewart will

 9    be able to assist me at this point because I need to show to the witness

10    one portion of the video.

11            JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm sure the Prosecution will comply.  They have an

12    indication of which --

13            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, I believe that they are already informed.

14    [Interpretation] Just for the record, this is Exhibit P02047.  It is a

15    trial video, and on the tape it is from 024745 to 024812.  So I think that

16    that's the section that we will be showing.

17                          [Videotape played]

18            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Please stop.

19       Q.   [Interpretation] I wanted to show you this footage, I selected

20    that from the entire footage, because you spoke about this when you talked

21    to my colleagues from the Prosecution, and it's on page 82 of your

22    statement too.  Tell me, please, with respect to this piece of

23    information, what the soldier says here about the fact that 3.000 or 4.000

24    surrendered and then you say, "Is that exaggerated?" And then he said,

25    "Well, yes, it is exaggerated."  And then you take him back to what you

Page 18858

 1    were asking him.  What was your impression?  How credible is that piece of

 2    information, would you say?

 3       A.   I haven't got the text on my screen to facilitate the work of our

 4    lady interpreters.  Now, the text, as far as I remember, that's the figure

 5    I bandied about on the 21st of July, but these were still rumours and this

 6    is the impression gained by a man who covers just several metres along a

 7    road or in a space.  And I don't think even Mladic would be able to

 8    provide you with that kind of information let alone this young local guy

 9    who is there supervising this very, very narrow stretch of road.

10            So that's why I left it there, this part, and it speaks for

11    itself.  It shows how arbitrary this was.

12       Q.   Thank you but for us to investigate this question in depth and

13    bearing in mind the fact that you filmed people who surrendered on the

14    meadow in Sandici and that you did have an opportunity of seeing those

15    people yourself gathered in the meadow, according to your estimate, how

16    many people were there approximately in that meadow?  You went up to them

17    and filmed them.  How many people could there have been there in your

18    opinion?

19       A.   It is my impression that it would be enough people to fill a bus

20    load, a bus load of people, and I think that I could stand by that and if

21    we were to take a satellite image, and they are precise to within five

22    centimetres or even more precise, I am very surprised that that isn't a

23    fact that has been established here in court up until now because

24    satellites could be used and they would show that I'm right.

25       Q.   I was just interested in your assessment and impression so that

Page 18859

 1    will suffice as far as I'm concerned for the moment.  And now just one

 2    more question with regards to that meadow in Sandici.  You were free to

 3    film?  Mr. Borovcanin never told you not to film the people in the meadow?

 4    He didn't say don't film what's going on here?  Don't film the people in

 5    the meadow?  Nothing like that?  Can you confirm that that was so?

 6       A.   Of course he did not.  Well, let me remind you, as I told

 7    Mr. Nicholls earlier on, I had two experiences with that unit during the

 8    war, and I conducted myself professionally, I did my job professionally,

 9    so there was no need for anybody to supervise me in any way, absolutely no

10    need for them to supervise and see what I was filming, if they had already

11    given me permission to film.

12       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I just wanted to clarify that point, but I

13    think that that is enough.  Yesterday during your testimony at page 46 of

14    yesterday's transcript, you said that later you heard some rumours that

15    some of the people from the meadow were subsequently killed and

16    specifically you mentioned the person by the name of Ramo.

17            My question is this:  After everything you saw and experienced

18    during the two days in the area, do you believe today that Mr. Borovcanin

19    did not know what was about to happen or, rather, that the people from the

20    meadow would get killed at a later stage?

21       A.   It is my deep professional belief, and I believe in that as a

22    person, a human being.  I don't know whether I can assist you any further

23    except for stating this clearly.  Nothing indicated that it would turn any

24    other way.  I have 29 years of journalistic experience and at that point I

25    had some 20.  I would have sensed that and I simply could not resist

Page 18860

 1    continuing filming if that were the case.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  I will leave the topic of the Sandici meadow.  I have

 3    only one question concerning the part of the footage showing the bodies in

 4    front of the Kravica warehouse.  We saw that two or three times yesterday.

 5    I don't think it is necessary for me to replay it again, but you also

 6    refer to that at page 236 of your statement given to the Prosecutor.

 7            I would just like to confirm a detail from your statement, if

 8    possible, of course.  When you passed by the Kravica warehouse, then, on

 9    that occasion, you didn't see any of the soldiers you can see there

10    shooting towards the warehouse, towards the windows and the entrance of

11    the warehouse.  Can you confirm to me that this is what you've already

12    stated to the Prosecutor?

13       A.   I can categorically confirm that.  That sequence is only a few

14    seconds long and only if we slow it down and zoom in can we see people

15    appearing there.  As I was taking the footage, I simply wasn’t aware of

16    any people being there.  You have to understand, it’s a matter of possibly

17    counting one, two, three… These are all subsequent viewings, you know.

18       Q.   As you testified yesterday, the night between the 13th and the

19    14th of July, you spent that night in Bratunac.  From the statement you

20    gave to my learned friends from the Prosecution, at page 77, you said that

21    you did not spend that night in -- or rather you did spend that night in

22    Bratunac but you did not hear any shooting.

23       A.   I did not.

24       Q.   I will leave that topic as well and move on to another one.

25            You testified that together with Mr. Borovcanin the next day,

Page 18861

 1    after the events, you went to Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar where you also

 2    filmed Mr. Tomislav Kovac.  Do you remember that part of your testimony?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Yesterday, I observed a detail which may have been unimportant to

 5    you but on page 72 of the transcript you said that on that occasion, on

 6    the 14th, when you went to Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar, a driver was with

 7    you.  According to the information we have, that is the Defence, the

 8    driver of Mr. Borovcanin was on another location on the 14th driving

 9    someone else to another place, and you can see on the footage that at

10    least three people were in the car.  Do you allow for the possibility that

11    it was someone else accompanying you that day, not the same person who was

12    with you on the 13th but another one who was maybe driving?

13       A.   Yes, absolutely.  As I said, I tried to stay focused as a one-man

14    band.  I was interested in what I was seeing and as to who was driving us,

15    that was unimportant to me.  Therefore I allow for the possibility that

16    the driver was not the same.  I simply do not remember the face.

17       Q.   Thank you.  In responding to some of the Prosecutor's questions,

18    when providing your statement, at page 106 of the English, you said that

19    when you were in Srebrenica and in Zeleni Jadar with Mr. Borovcanin on the

20    14th, you said that Mr. Borovcanin did not brief Mr. Kovac.  You thought

21    that was quite ordinary since they were both professionals and that it

22    would be inappropriate that some sort of a briefing would be conducted in

23    the presence of another person.  Do you remember that?

24       A.   Yes.  I will remind you of the footage.  When we arrived there,

25    there was a local policeman, probably the new chief.  He is the one who is

Page 18862

 1    supposed to brief the minister.  As far as I remember, Ljubisa merely

 2    greeted him, as did all of us.  It was not his territory.  He was not

 3    chief of police there.  There was a person doing that job there.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  If I understood your yesterday's testimony properly, I

 5    believe at a certain point we had some problems with overlapping and

 6    translations and interpretation of everything you said.  However, I think

 7    you said that once in Srebrenica, you could wander about on your own and

 8    film things and Mr. Borovcanin did not accompany you any longer.  Is that

 9    correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Therefore, there was an interval during which you didn't know what

12    Mr. Borovcanin was doing, whether he was talking to Mr. Kovac or anything

13    else.  That's what I conclude from your answer.

14       A.   Yes, that is right.

15       Q.   Regarding this, just two minor things to clarify.  It has to do

16    with yesterday's transcript, and I wasn't quite sure whether everything

17    was taken down properly.  It had to do with the fact that you mentioned a

18    certain Lukic on page 69 of the transcript.  I understood that the person

19    by the name of Lukic you referred to that person in the context of a

20    breakfast where you were together with Mr. Kovac and Borovcanin.  On page

21    69, it was recorded -- transcribed as having taken place in Belgrade.  Can

22    we correct that, please?

23       A.   There was no breakfast in Belgrade.  It was in Bratunac, prior to

24    the departure for Belgrade.

25       Q.   Thank you.  I observed that and I thought this would be the best

Page 18863

 1    way to clarify it so that you can explain it to us.

 2            Since Mr. Borovcanin was there as well as Mr. Kovac, and the rest,

 3    those people were from the police, weren't they?  And I'm asking you

 4    whether it was possible that you wrongly remember the name of the last

 5    person, that maybe it wasn't the last name of Lukic but some other?

 6       A.   Of course, I allow that as well.  However, I probably may have

 7    registered a Lukic there.  Maybe I can be of assistance because I now

 8    understand what Mr. Nicholls had in mind.  He had in mind the famous Lukic

 9    from Visegrad.  I heard some things about him.  But that Lukic or such a

10    Lukic was not present at that breakfast.  If there was a Lukic, it wasn't

11    "the Lukic."  That's what I was trying to say.

12       Q.   I believe this is crystal clear now and I think it does away with

13    the learned friend's from the Prosecution's dilemma.

14            To conclude, I have a few questions left.  You mentioned this in

15    your statement.  However, in 2002, when Mr. Borovcanin came to see you and

16   asked you whether you wanted to provide a statement about all these events,

17    he actually conveyed to you his request for you to give your contribution

18    to the proceedings?  Did he tell you at the time that he wanted you merely

19   to tell the truth and nothing else?  He didn't ask you to do anything else?

20       A.   Yes.  He put it very clearly and concisely.  And as I said, I

21    answered positively, without hesitation.  I wanted to help that person and

22    I wish I could have helped more because of my impression of his character.

23       Q.   Thank you.  I am convinced that my client would like to thank you

24    personally for these words.  However, I would like to thank on his behalf,

25    though.

Page 18864

 1            On that occasion, you presented Mr. Borovcanin with a copy of your

 2    book and you wrote an inscription in it.  Do you remember that?

 3       A.   If that was in the winter or spring of 2002, it could be true.  I

 4    published the book "Al Qaeda, The Green Comintern Against The

 5    Judeo-Christian Civilisation."  I'm proud of that book.  It is a part of

 6    the congress library in Washington, and it wasn't sent there by me.  I

 7    believed Mr. Borovcanin to be interested in that topic, as I was, and this

 8    was simply a gesture on my part.

 9       Q.   My last question had to do with your statement to the Prosecutor.

10    That part is on page 258 in the English.  You said "If Ljubisa did

11    anything then I should be accused as well and I have nothing to hide."

12    Those were your words on the occasion of that interview.  What was your

13    reason for saying that.

14       A.   During those 40 some hours that I spent in the field, I believe

15    there was not a trace of such a possibility.  If this man were any

16    different, I would never have asked him for such a big favour and I

17    wouldn't have spent time with him.  I can state in full responsibility

18    here before Their Honours that if he did anything bad, committed any crime

19    during the time we were there, please by all means keep me here and let us

20    try to establish what happened there positively.

21       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.  I have no further questions.

22            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

23            Mr. Krgovic?

24                          Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

25       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 18865

 1       A.   Good afternoon.

 2       Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic and together with David Josse, I appear

 3    on behalf of General Gvero, and on behalf of my client's defence I wanted

 4    to ask you a few questions.  We speak the same language.  However, I will

 5    do my utmost not to overlap, the same applied to Mr. Lazarevic's

 6    questioning.  Therefore, please observe the same rules before you start to

 7    answer.

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Krgovic please

 9    speak closer to the microphone?  Thank you.

10            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Is this better for the interpreters?

11            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Yes.

12            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Mr. Petrovic, a clarification, please.  When answering one of

14    Mr. Lazarevic's questions on page 7, lines 22 and 23, you described the

15    Dutch soldier who was almost two metres tall, you said that he was

16    frightened.  Was that an irony?  We who speak the same language understand

17    the nuance, but it is probably not reflected in the transcript.  Can you

18    explain that in more detail, what your impression was of his appearance

19    and behaviour?

20       A.   I have to thank you for that, since I said in inverted commas.  I

21    said that he was beside himself, he was very frightened, and but I meant

22    that ironically.  I was being cynical.  You can see the footage for

23    yourself and you realise what I had in mind.  It was just another

24    illustration of my general impression that I did not see a single

25    frightened Dutch soldier.  I saw Dutch soldiers working, trying to

Page 18866

 1    evacuate those people and cooperating with the Serbs.  If someone is

 2    afraid, that person behaves differently.  There was a Dutch soldier

 3    drinking milk.  If you're terrified, you don't drink or eat.

 4       Q.   I agree, Mr. Petrovic.  To move on to a different topic, when you

 5    provided your statement you mentioned that on one of those two days in

 6    Bratunac you met two people in the street.  Can you tell me -- well, they

 7    seem to have been journalists.  Can you tell us who they were?

 8       A.   Now you see why it's good for me to have this piece of paper here.

 9    It is from that period.  I wrote down The Independent, Peter Block was

10    there with Braco Grubacic.  Actually I meant to say The Independent, The

11    Independent, the British daily.  He was with Braco Grubacic I wrote down

12    the title of the text published on the 21st of July; although, I believe

13    he published some even prior to that date.  The title was "Mass Slaughter

14    in a Bosnian Field, Knee Deep in Blood."  Page 46.

15            Those were the two men I encountered.  We greeted each other,

16    since I knew Braco.  He is my work mate.

17       Q.   You mentioned Braco Grubacic.  He was an owner and editor of a

18    magazine called V.I.P. Daily News.  Can you tell us what sort of a

19    magazine that is?

20       A.   It's not a real magazine.  It's a specialised edition for

21    foreigners in Belgrade.  You have it in Zagreb, in Sarajevo, and

22    everywhere else now, that kind of thing, giving reliable information, a

23    digest of important information so that any foreign person can extract the

24    most important things, and the clients of various businessmen who happen

25    to be in Serbia and the reputation of this VIP magazine is very high.

Page 18867

 1            It has a very good reputation.  And proof of this is that Braco

 2    Grubacic throughout the war was probably one of the most-interviewed Serbs

 3    by the western media.  So what he said in analytical terms was considered

 4    to be of high quality.

 5       Q.   And the information he gave was reliable, was it?

 6       A.   Yes.  They were thought to be reliable, and I read some of his

 7    articles, not all of them of course, but I can say that they are at a very

 8    high level.

 9       Q.   May I now have 6D195, please, Exhibit 6D195?

10            Mr. Petrovic, this is an issue of that magazine.  It is dated the

11    31st of July 1995.  Are we talking about the same publication?

12       A.   Yes, but I haven't read this particular article.

13       Q.   All I wanted was for you to confirm that this publication and that

14    it deals with the person that you saw in Bratunac?

15       A.   Yes.  It's now changed its address and is now on Trg Republike or

16    Republic Square.

17       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.  I don't need the document any more.

18            I'm going to move on to another area now.  You touched upon that

19    during the examination-in-chief.  We saw here, we saw your film, your

20    footage, and I'm especially interested in your stay in Srebrenica the

21    following day.  It's the film the 14th of July during the day?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Now I looked at how Srebrenica appeared and how you filmed it and

24    the locations and the buildings in the centre, the main street and so on.

25    It is my impression watching that that Srebrenica, at least judging by

Page 18868

 1    that footage, was fairly well preserved, that is to say I never saw any

 2    freshly destroyed houses or visible traces of shelling anywhere.

 3            Does that correspond to the actual state of affairs as you saw it

 4    when you were there?

 5       A.   Yes.  That -- well, since Srebrenica was something that the media

 6    focused and just like Sarajevo of course, this is a much smaller place

 7    than Sarajevo, but you remember that people said that 5 million shells

 8    fell on Sarajevo.  If that had been the case, there would have been

 9    nothing left of Sarajevo whereas it still exists.  Now, the interesting

10    thing here was well the operation didn't last too long either.  I think it

11    started on the 5th or the 6th.  But obviously, the defenders left

12    everything very quickly, and my footage shows traces of hits, the hits,

13    but they are old traces.  You can see that on the texture of the surface

14    of the buildings.

15            But the important thing is this:  In my footage, you can see

16    something that is not the general urban image or rather you can't see the

17    same thing that you can see in Sarajevo or Zagreb.  Already in July, those

18    people had -- had already collected all the firewood they needed for the

19    winter and winter wasn't to arrive, it was in two or three months' time.

20    So they were diligent people.  And had there been any serious shooting and

21    serious fighting, I would not have been able to film it in that state

22    because there are many buildings that were intact, nothing wrong with

23    them.

24       Q.   You reported from Vukovar and the battle ground throughout

25    Yugoslavia, and you know what a town that has been heavily shelled and

Page 18869

 1    destroyed looked like.  Now, Srebrenica, the way you saw it, does it look

 2    like a town that was shelled by hundreds of grenades for many, many days?

 3    Did it have that appearance?  Shells, mines, anything like that.

 4       A.   Since I arrived three days after that, it would be impossible to

 5    record an atmosphere like that.  What I want to say is that I saw no new

 6    traces apart from the ones I showed which dated back two or three years.

 7       Q.   So all reports to the effect that such a large number of shells

 8    fell on Srebrenica would be a sheer lie?

 9       A.   As a professional journalist, if I were in an editorial office

10    that published that and then appeared in Srebrenica I would be -- have

11    been ashamed to show my face in Srebrenica, had that been the case.

12       Q.   In response to questions from the Prosecution, and this was

13    recorded on page -- just a moment, please.  Let me find it -- 102 and 103,

14    you described having seen, when you visited Zeleni Jadar and Srebrenica,

15    that you saw traces of fresh shelling and that you saw some fire, that

16    there was some fire burning.  Where were those locations?

17            You described them to the Prosecutor, you said there were things

18    that were still on fire.  So where did you see that?  What location was

19    that where you saw that?

20       A.   When you want to go from Srebrenica to Zeleni Jadar, and the

21    factory there, then you would take the serpentine road, and it's a very

22    high inclination, and it's near that factory somewhere, two next door

23    houses at some check-point perhaps or some crossroads or junction.  I

24    can't remember the details but it was several kilometres away.  I don't

25    know how far Zeleni Jadar is from the town, but certainly quite a few

Page 18870

 1    kilometres.

 2            So it's -- it's in the direction of where the Serb army was

 3    burgeoning and they were the defence lines that were speedily left and

 4    they took to the forest, the Muslim fighters, took to the forests, so I

 5    just -- that was the only location where I could film some fire.  But in

 6    town, there were no houses on fire or anything like that.  There was

 7    something else.  I saw something else in -- and that was people fleeing

 8    from the houses and general chaos in the flats, and I came across some

 9    people like that on the street.  But otherwise, the town was in good

10    condition.

11       Q.   I didn't see on that footage any traces of glass, shattered glass,

12    glass from shattered windows or anything like that.  Did you happen to

13    notice anything like that perhaps, something that your camera didn't

14    record?

15       A.   Well, had I seen something like that, then just like any

16    journalist, I would have seen that, and I would have stepped on glass

17    because glass, when you see shattered glass, then you can think that there

18    had been wartime destruction but there was no shattered glass, broken

19    glass, or anything from some recent explosion or anything like that.

20       Q.   What I noticed was this:  There were quite a few windows who had

21    some plastic foil over them covering them, some nylon sheeting or

22    whatever.

23       A.   Well, that was probably from 1992-93, the war, and I remember when

24    I was in Israel, as soon as there was the danger of an attack, then the

25    windows would be taped across, and that would avoid the glass causing any

Page 18871

 1    damage but I'm not quite sure what you meant with your question about the

 2    glass.

 3       Q.   You said you were impressed by the fact or you noticed that there

 4    was this nylon sheeting over the windows.

 5       A.   Yes.  That was very noticeable in Srebrenica, for example, and of

 6    course it wasn't the Serbs who put that up in the space of two days, the

 7    ones who returned to their flats.

 8       Q.   Mr. Petrovic, yesterday you discussed something with the

 9    Prosecutor, the article that you published in fact after you returned to

10    Belgrade, and I wanted to ask you a couple of questions linked to that

11    article so might we have the next exhibit, P469, put up on e-court,

12    please?

13            And may we see page 2 of that article, please?  In English, it is

14    page 2 and 3.  It begins at the bottom of page 2 and goes on to page 3.

15            Mr. Petrovic, I followed with great attention the answer you gave

16    to the Prosecutor with respect to the source of your information for this

17    article, and you said that for most of the statements you make in the

18    article and what you say in the article, you had statements from eye

19    witnesses.  Now, analysing this article, I came across two pieces of

20    information for which you did not give any source, which seemed to be a

21    little different from the rest of your articles.  That's my impression.

22            Now, reading this as a layman, if I can say that, and you know

23    this better than I, but usually when you write an article in most cases to

24    give meat to the bones of the article, then you say something a bit

25    bombastic perhaps, you make a dramatic conclusion or something like that.

Page 18872

 1    You give a strong impression or you give perhaps a journalistic

 2    speculation.  Now, reading your articles, when you worked for other

 3    magazines, that seemed to me to be your style.

 4       A.   Let me first say that it's easy for Wolf Blitzer to -- well, you

 5    noticed that very well, that part of the text is a little different from

 6    the rules governing a general report.  I could have made it -- put it

 7    between the lines or in an inserted section.  Now, we don't have the same

 8    culture of information as you do elsewhere.  That is to say politicians in

 9    our countries have not become accustomed to being a citizen service, so

10    it's much more difficult to be a good journalist in such societies.  Now,

11    on the basis of the many pieces of information that I had from earlier

12    periods and so on, I made a compilation of --

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls what's the problem?

14            MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, I just don't think the record is

15    clear at all as to really what part of the article we are talking about.

16    We've gone on for about a page.  He's talking about "I could have put this

17    bit between the lines," and my friend has been talking about a section and

18    we have some page references, but I think for the record it could be

19    clearer.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  I think Mr. Nicholls is --

21            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I still haven't come to that.  I

22    intend to come to it in just a moment.

23            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Now I think we need to get back to

24    Mr. Petrovic and re-establish the link because we interrupted him maybe a

25    little bit, in an unorthodox manner.  But anyway, are you in a position to

Page 18873

 1    continue from where we interrupted you, Mr. Petrovic?

 2            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 3            JUDGE AGIUS:  I appreciate that.  Please go ahead.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was saying, the basic thing is

 5    that you notice this very well, that that part of the text, the part of

 6    the text that you're interested in, because the name Gvero is mentioned

 7    here, is a little different from the rest of the article.  I wanted to

 8    supplement it and give it a new dimension or a different dimension for the

 9    readers' benefit.  And that is the result of the various information

10    sources I had before, with respect to Republika Srpska and so on.  I was

11    probably one of the few journalists in Serbia who spoke about that from

12    time to time.

13            Let me repeat again, since 2003 [as interpreted], Milosevic

14    forbade the Belgrade media to give out detailed information from Republika

15    Srpska, let alone make an RTS programme, Radio Television Serbia or

16    anything like that.  Now, this interview was conducted by Milomir Maric

17    and so he released the text.

18       Q.   Here you say it seems, it would appear.  So in this part of the

19    article you put all the people from the army of Republika Srpska and you

20    place them in the Supreme Command here.

21       A.   Could you zoom in to that portion of the text?  I can't read it.

22       Q.   [Microphone not activated].  The left-hand side.  It says, "it

23    seems," "it appears that."

24       A.   Is that to do with the definitive abolition of the enclave, "it

25    seems that" -- I see.  I've found it.

Page 18874

 1       Q.   Can we move up a bit, please?  See the upper half of the article?

 2    It's page 3 of the English.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not have page 3.  Thank you.

 4            MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Yes.  You put the Supreme Command, you mix apples and oranges?

 6       A.   Yes, I do I mix apples and oranges.  Is that what you mean?  There

 7    is no place for civilians there, Krajisnik, Plavsic, Koljevic, but I think

 8    that Karadzic is among them there, that he belongs there.

 9       Q.   I'm going to show you another exhibit now to explain who made up

10    the Supreme Command.  Can we see Exhibit P422, please?  This is also

11    numbered 725.  This is the Official Gazette of the army of Republika

12    Srpska dated the 29th of November 1994.  May we have page 2 of this

13    document on our screens, please?

14            Now, may we zoom in to article 3, please?  And it is page 3 for

15    the English.

16            Mr. Petrovic, here we have the composition of the Supreme Command,

17    the president, as the Supreme Commander, the vice presidents, the

18    president of the assembly, the Prime Minister.  May we see a little lower

19    down, the lower portion, thank you, the Defence Minister and the Internal

20    Affairs Minister.

21            Now what I want to say is this, and you agree with me, that this

22    was guess work on your part about the composition and about all these

23    events which were -- I mean the article, your article.  To put a bit of

24    meat on the bones of your article, as you journalists like to say.  Now,

25    let's go back to Exhibit P469 now, please.  Page 2.  And in English it is

Page 18875

 1    to be found on page 9.  It's a separate part.  And underlined, bold

 2    letters, where you talk about the appearance of Fikret Abdic, that

 3    phenomenon.  So that's the other thing that seems to appear a little

 4    different from the general way in which you write your article, and for

 5    the same reasons, that's why you introduced that part, for the same

 6    reasons as you've just explained to us, right?

 7       A.   I can tell you that I wouldn't do the same thing now.  I see here

 8    or rather when I compare this to the previous document, I see some

 9    differences.  I mention Milovanovic, Gvero, and Tolimir, and we are in

10    agreement that they were not members of that body.  That is clear as day.

11    Nothing needs to be proven there.  My mistake.  I agree.

12       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.  I have no further questions and I thank

13    you for your time.  Your Honours this concludes my cross-examination.

14            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you so much, Mr. Krgovic.

15            Is there re-examination, Mr. Nicholls?

16            MR. NICHOLLS:  I think there will be, Judge, a short one.

17            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yeah, how short?

18            MR. NICHOLLS:  I'd rather take the break now.  I want to look for

19    one document.  And it will probably be a few minutes.

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We'll have a short break now.  25

21    minutes.  Thank you.

22                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

24            MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                          Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

Page 18876

 1       Q.   I just have a few questions for you?

 2       A.   [In English] Yes, sir.

 3       Q.   First of all, my friend, Mr. Lazarevic, asked you about the blue

 4    vest that we saw in one of the photo stills.  And you were able to say

 5    that you believed it was not a DutchBat vest.  I want to go back to a part

 6    of your article and ask you a question about it.  This is on page 5 in the

 7    English of Exhibit 469.  I'll wait for that to come up.  Maybe I can just

 8    read it to you to speed things up.  "The Dutch soldiers 'captured in

 9    Potocari,' were walking around bringing water, pushing old people in

10    wheelbarrows and conferring with Serbs on what to do next.  It is true

11    that they handed over to the Serbs their quality blue helmets and flak

12    jackets, pistols, caps and some equipment as war spoils."

13            So my question is really very simply, can you really tell just

14    from that still of the flak jacket whether it was a DutchBat one that was

15    handed over or a different type?

16       A.   [Interpretation] If you look at his jacket, if you look at the

17    flak jacket, you will see -- well, those who were in a war knows that

18    there are several kinds.  This one is a very modest, thin jacket.  I

19    personally have a far-thicker flak jacket given to me by a French TV

20    station when we went in the field.  The Dutch soldiers had the heavier

21    bullet-proof vests.  This is not a quality flak jacket.  If you go back to

22    the still you'll see that it's quite thin.  That is why I believe it

23    didn't come from the Dutch.

24            However, a lot of time has passed and I can't say any more.  In

25    any case, experts would be able to tell you.  There are several types of

Page 18877

 1    vests, but this is not the Kevlar one which can actually stop bullets.  A

 2    larger calibre bullet would easily go through this one.

 3            The source I'm trying to say is that it's probably a different

 4    one.

 5       Q.   Okay.  My friend also asked you some questions about number of

 6    children and the ages of people in Srebrenica, Potocari and you gave some

 7    of your views on demographics.  I want to show a clip from the video, this

 8    is 2054, the raw footage, at 3 minutes 28.9 seconds.

 9                          [Videotape played]

10            MR. NICHOLLS:

11       Q.   We saw there, you asking that woman questions about her -- how old

12    her baby was and how many children she had.  I'd ask you about that.  And

13    now but first go to another section of your article, that's also on page 5

14    where you talk about this same topic.  It's on the top of page 5 in the

15    English.  Demographers will surely find it interesting the fact that there

16    were approximately 10.000 children among the refugees, and out of that

17    figure, around 8.000 are under three years old.

18            "The war children," as they say, "This is what they really do,

19    they are -- I can't pronounce probably hojas [phoen], the motherfuckers,

20    they are completely surrounded.  No food at all.  They keep complaining

21    but they go on procreating.  Is that normal?  Would you believe that?

22    Now, you tell me what kind of religion is that, Islam?  They made one more

23    corps of soldiers right there in the middle of Srebrenica who will be

24    after us in 15 to 20 years.  Just let them stay as far away from us as

25    possible, my friend, the motherfuckers."

Page 18878

 1            And then in the next paragraph you talk about a 14 year old girl

 2    with children.

 3            The baby we saw in the clip and the quote from your article, is

 4    that what you're talking about as demographic warfare those children were

 5    born for needs of war?

 6       A.   I quoted an opinion I heard in the field.  If you look at things

 7    geopolitically or politically or demographically, I can confirm again that

 8    it was quite normal, after having seen the scene, I concluded what I

 9    repeated here today.  If you are besieged and threatened with death and

10    appearing not having enough to eat, then if I compare that to what I saw

11    there, and the number of children I saw, that was the first thing that

12    came to my mind, and I still maintain that it is not something ordinary to

13    have so many children under such conditions.  However, you can call that

14    whatever you want.  But ask the demographers.

15       Q.   Is there anything in your article whatsoever to show that you

16    disagree with that quote, that you chose to include in this section about

17    demographics?

18       A.   What I told you is what I think.  The part you quoted is a quote.

19    And the entire text is a documentary news report.  My task was not to make

20    conclusions.  My task was to show the atmosphere, the situation which can

21    be felt if you watch something on TV, but you cannot grasp that from

22    reading a text.  Some of my political opponents held this against me but

23    from the point of good journalism this is an exceptionally good text since

24    I used the so-called verism, the veracity reporting.  I tried to convey

25    the atmosphere of the moment.  And this is what I tried to do as best I

Page 18879

 1    could for the public.  I did my utmost.

 2            At that moment, I had no religious reasons to write about that.

 3    That was merely a document of the situation I found myself in, the

 4    contemporary or present history in its full meaning.  It is a text that

 5    will stay for generations.  That's how I see journalism.

 6       Q.   Thank you.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Nicholls.  Judge Kwon?

 8                          Questioned by the Court:

 9            JUDGE KWON:  Before deciding to put a question or not,

10    Mr. Nicholls, can I see the segment which will show the French ration box?

11    It appears 24 something.

12            MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour, of course.

13                          [Videotape played]

14            JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we can stop here.

15            Mr. Petrovic, you said yesterday, didn't you, that this part was

16    filmed before Srebrenica.

17       A.   [In English] Of course.

18            JUDGE KWON:  But you saw didn't you that the date of this ration

19    box was June of 1997.

20       A.   This is expiry date.

21            JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  That was my mistake.  Thank you.

22       A.   And if I can help you, this is to remind you, this is what I

23    brought from the front from Majevica.

24            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25       A.   They were giving to the God's warriors.

Page 18880

 1            JUDGE KWON:  I'm done.  Thank you.

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Petrovic, we have come to the end of your

 3    testimony.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, but also on behalf of the

 4    Tribunal, I would like to thank you for having cooperated with the

 5    Tribunal and come over to give testimony.  And on behalf of everyone

 6    present here, we wish you a safe journey back home.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  May I

 8    address myself to you very briefly?

 9            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was thinking about this.  I still

11    owe you something because everybody is here to unravel the truth.  I have

12    a proposal to make to your Tribunal, because a few years ago, I

13    interviewed a colonel who was called Brunel [phoen] and who worked for the

14    French intelligence services, and he has provided me with new information

15    about Srebrenica.  And up until now, I have never seen that anybody has

16    shown any interest for this, which I deem is of vital importance.

17            In the interview I published, I also have the text in French, this

18    gentleman confirmed that around the spring of 1996, 1996, i.e. several

19    months after the fight for Srebrenica, a group, as he said, a group of 100

20    or so combatants, Muslim combatants, arrived fully armed and reached the

21    American Tuzla compound.  Colonel Brunel was present as well as his

22    British colleagues.  The Americans did not enable him to be present during

23    the interview.

24            These people were transported or were flown to the United States

25    afterwards.  I know exactly where these people live in the United States.

Page 18881

 1    So would this be of any assistance to you or not?

 2            JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not the right persons to communicate this

 3    information to.  I would suggest that you communicate it to the Office of

 4    the Prosecutor or to any other person you may wish, but I don't think

 5    that -- or rather I am sure that we cannot either comment on what you've

 6    stated or act upon it.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope you have understood me fully.

 8    I hope you have understood that you would like to unravel the ultimate

 9    truth.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

11                          [The witness withdrew]

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, documents?  Mr. Nicholls?

13            MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, number 40 -- excuse me, 469, which is

14    the article, Mr. Petrovic wrote a few days after the events, and the other

15    exhibit I would like to tender is not quite ready yet.  It's the

16    transcript of the Studio B footage broadcast.  Now, it's synced with the

17    video, but I've spoken to my friends on the Borovcanin team and they have

18    told me they think there may be some errors in it and that we should talk

19    about.  So there is no objection, I think, to putting it in but we'll wait

20    and have sort it out and that's -- that will be coming later.

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  You're not tendering it now then.

22            MR. NICHOLLS:  No.  Because I think we may as well get it

23    perfected first.  So at this point I just wanted to put you on notice

24    about that.  It's just the article.

25            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Any objection?  No objection.  So document 65

Page 18882

 1    ter 469 is admitted.  Mr. Lazarevic, do you wish to tender any document?

 2            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Just one, Your Honour, it's Srebrenica civil

 3    protection staff list of population and household numbers.  It's numbered

 4    4D00127.

 5            JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection?

 6            MR. NICHOLLS:  No, no objection.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Any objection from the other

 8    Defence teams?  None.  So it is so admitted.  Make sure that the number is

 9    correct, Madam Registrar, please.

10            Any further?  Mr. Krgovic you don't have any?  All right.  So that

11    closes the Petrovic -- yes, Mr. Josse?

12            MR. JOSSE:  Could we mention one, I think it was a translation

13    rather than a transcription error?  It's an obvious error, and I'm

14    grateful to my learned friends who sit in front to bring it to our

15    attention.  It was at page 30.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

17            MR. JOSSE:  Line 13 where Mr. Krgovic was cross-examining the

18    witness.  And it's obviously 1993.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Instead of 2003, we should have

20    1993.

21            All right.  That concludes the Petrovic evidence.

22            Now, we move to the next one.  Erin Gallagher.

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, good afternoon.

24            JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon.

25            MR. McCLOSKEY:  The subject of Ms. Gallagher's testimony was the

Page 18883

 1    Muslim -- what we called the Muslim ID book and the Defence have been

 2    working with us, and I believe we've reached a stipulation on that book.

 3    So I don't believe there is any need, as I think you pointed out, for a

 4    witness on something that is self explanatory that we all agree on.

 5            And so I don't see any disagreements and I know there has been a

 6    lot of hard work so I think we're okay there.

 7            JUDGE AGIUS:  That is nice music for our ears.  However, apart

 8    from asking for a confirmation of this from the Defence teams, we would

 9    also like to know what's going to happen next, and if what's going to

10    happen next will affect the deadline we have established for the end of

11    the Prosecution case on which we are not prepared to budge.  First of all,

12    is Mr. Manning available to start tomorrow, for example?

13            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  He is, as you know, from Australia.  When we

14    saw that the Defence estimates were going to be undercut, we tried to see

15    if we could move him but given his schedule and the -- how this was

16    planned, that we could not get him here.  We've -- we also have Colonel

17    Kingori for after Dean Manning, we tried to see if we could get the

18    colonel in.  He was scheduled to testify in the Sarajevo state court today

19    and -- but he was not able to because of a visa issue, so -- but he will

20    be here next week.  So next week looks good.  As you can imagine we've

21    been a bit conservative.  We didn't want to jam this week too much and

22    have the next week bump into a situation where we would have to bring

23    somebody back after the holiday.

24            So next week looks good but tomorrow I don't have a witness for

25    you, but we only have Mr. Butler and Mr. Vasic for January, so we see no

Page 18884

 1    problem in ending when you say.  Though, the one wild card is the length

 2    of the cross-examination of Mr. Butler, but I think even with a very long

 3    cross-examination we should be in pretty good shape.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  You are a good lawyer, Mr. McCloskey.

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I better sit down.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I need to discuss with my colleagues.

 7            Madam, my apologies.  I didn't see you.

 8            MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have just heard that

 9    Mr. Kingori is a witness before the Sarajevo state court.  I wonder

10    whether we will get the Sarajevo testimony because I'm sure it has to do

11    with Srebrenica.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment on that?  We are not in a

13    position to answer -- give an answer to that.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to clarify.  He came all the way to Europe

15    and had a problem with Croatia Airlines and KLM airlines, and they held

16    him in Amsterdam for a whole day and he missed his testimony date and then

17    they deported him back to Kenya.  So I hope he'll come.  He says he's

18    going to, and I guarantee he won't have that problem with us.

19                          [Trial Chamber confers]

20            JUDGE AGIUS:  Our refuge -- our port of refuge has always been

21    Mr. Blaszczyk.  Is there anything left for him to --

22            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Actually, Mr. President, there are two other

23    important exhibit books that we have been talking with the -- all the --

24    our colleagues about.  They are similar to the ID book.  They speak for

25    themselves.  But if they are going to be in contention, it would be -- it

Page 18885

 1    may be a good idea for you to have an investigator to help explain to you

 2    how they were put together.  We haven't had the ability to talk in depth

 3    about those books with the Defence, whether or not we'll have -- we will

 4    be able to reach an agreement or not.

 5            I made a brief oral submission on the duty officer notebook but

 6    that was mostly related to the issue of whether or not you wanted the

 7    teachers edition with our comments or not.  But there is a little, a more

 8    complicated issue that I have not heard from the Defence on, that not all

 9    the information in that book -- in that exhibit that we have put together,

10    is information that comes from trial evidence or evidence of an expert.

11    Some of it is hearsay that a -- our investigator picked up.  For example,

12    our investigator is told by a witness that their handwriting was on such

13    and such a page.  And it's our view that that kind of evidence is

14    allowable as hearsay.  I don't know if they even object.  I don't know if

15    they even disagree with the conclusion about the handwriting.

16            If they don't, then it can come in.  If they do, we may have a

17    legal issue that we could discuss with you and/or that the investigator

18    could be questioned on the particular point, though the investigators are

19    coming as third persons in this case because most of them weren't involved

20    in person with this sorts of information.  So there are those kinds --

21    that issue on that book.

22            We have another exhibit which is very similar to the Muslim ID

23    book, and that's of identifications of many of these faces and soldiers

24    you've seen along the road.  Many of those IDs have been made in this

25    Court and that book reflects those IDs so that you can see it in one

Page 18886

 1    sitting, though like I just described, some of those IDs are hearsay in

 2    the field IDs that have not come into court.  We did this deliberately

 3    because we believe the rules of this institution allow that kind of

 4    hearsay and to bring in every person that said, yes, that's me in the

 5    video, would have added many, many more witnesses.  So that's another

 6    issue.  I don't know if there is any objections from the Defence on that.

 7    They've had this book for many months.  We have some updated

 8    identifications which we would like to go over with them on to see if

 9    there are any issues there.

10            But those are the two issues that I can think of and of course,

11    Mr. Zivanovic has filed a motion regarding Dean Manning, a bit on the late

12    side but that is an issue that I hope to have a written response for

13    everyone tonight or tomorrow morning, which is another issue that can be

14    dealt with.  But aside from those issues, I don't think I have any

15    testimonial issues to take up.

16            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Leaving apart the Zivanovic or Popovic motion

17    relating to manning, we are awaiting your response to that and it will

18    need to be decided before Mr. Manning starts giving evidence on Monday.

19            Is it possible there are still two hours, more than two hours,

20    until 7.00 and a whole day tomorrow.  Is it possible for you to agree to

21    have meetings and thrash these outstanding matters relating to the

22    documents that you have mentioned and give us a clear picture, either

23    tomorrow or Monday, if you think it's more feasible on Monday, so that we

24    know where we stand and you know where you stand, following which, if

25    necessary, we will have proper submissions formally or, in writing or

Page 18887

 1    orally, so that we can hand down a decision.

 2            But I suggest that you make use of this time like we are going to

 3    make use.  If we are not sitting tomorrow, we are I think in a position to

 4    hand down three or four decisions tomorrow.  We will be working, but we

 5    suggest that you do the same, and I'm not hinting that you wouldn't be

 6    working otherwise but that you try and get together and sort these

 7    outstanding matters that you have amongst you or between you.

 8            Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

 9            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just like to

10    address one of the exhibits referred to by my colleague which is the

11    operational logbook.  We have had the opportunity of already providing

12    some submissions to the Trial Chamber in this regard.  This is one where

13    indeed we will have difficulty in reaching an agreement, and my colleague

14    referred to one of the aspects of this exhibit, this proposed exhibit, to

15    which we disagree.  In that operational logbook, there are big brackets

16    that are identified in colour which identifies a specific part of the book

17    with the handwriting of a witness.

18            If this was only based on the expert witness, for example, and it

19    would be for practical reasons we let the Trial Chamber know that this

20    bracket refers to what was testified by the expert witness, maybe there

21    could be some agreement.  The problem is that these brackets that have

22    been included in the book are based on a number of different sources of

23    evidence, from the expert witness, from the expert witness report that we

24    have received, from the testimony of witnesses which have appeared before

25    you, and also from statements of witnesses who have not appeared before

Page 18888

 1    you.  And it is because it's a mix of sources of evidence that we say that

 2    these are conclusions which should not be brought before the Trial

 3    Chamber, at least until the end of the trial, when they make their

 4    submissions.  So this is one where we will have difficulty agreeing.  We

 5    can discuss but it will be difficult to agree.

 6            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  That's a further

 7    justification of having the meeting like the one I suggested.  On the

 8    other hand I wish to add something.  I understood the Prosecution, I think

 9    it was -- I don't know whether it was Mr. Thayer or you or Mr. Nicholls

10    who dealt with this before, but the understanding was that it if there

11    were difficulties on your part, and we did not opt for a preference, then

12    the Prosecution was prepared to hand a clean translation.  That's how I

13    understood the submission of the Prosecution last time.  What was being

14    offered, and I remember you intervening, saying, "No, I had not requested

15    that," but I think it was Mr. Haynes was also mentioned as a person that

16    was directly interested and who had made some kind of call on the

17    Prosecution to have these translated.  So please do meet.  We are open for

18    all submissions that you may have, and it would be beneficial for everyone

19    if on Monday we have a clear position, either common or a divided one.

20                          [Trial Chamber confers]

21            JUDGE AGIUS:  We have discussed a little bit further, and the

22    previous discussion that we had on this issue is still very fresh in our

23    minds, and we are pleased that the issue has come up again.  We suggest,

24    again, as strongly as we did earlier on, that you meet and try and come to

25    some kind of an agreement on this.  If you don't agree, we would perfectly

Page 18889

 1    understand and we would also then be in a position to give you our

 2    position on that.  I used "position" twice in the same sentence.  I

 3    apologise.

 4            The other thing, Mr. McCloskey, is we think it would be

 5    appropriate at this time, since you have dropped a further witness, to

 6    have a revised outline of the remaining testimony, the remaining

 7    witnesses, schedule of witnesses, like the one you -- or the previous two

 8    ones that you have supplied, right up to the end of the Prosecution case.

 9            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  And we'll get that done, and

10    it's nice to know that it's very easy.  It's Dean Manning and Kingori next

11    week, and then January 10th it's Mr. Butler and then Mr. Vasic a week or

12    two after that.  And we'll get that down to you clearly.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  One moment.

14                          [Trial Chamber confers]

15            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

16            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  There is one further

17    issue since we have time that we believe we should raise with the Trial

18    Chamber at this time, and this has to do with the scheduling order which

19    has been rendered by the Trial Chamber concerning the end of the case and

20    the end of the presentation of the Prosecution's case.

21            Pursuant to the schedule which was issued by the Trial Chamber, we

22    would have to file and submit our Rule 65 ter summaries by the 31st of

23    March and the first defence would begin on the 1st of June.  We have been

24    having been doing lots of discussions, both with the Prosecution and

25    amongst ourselves, and we believe that we would like a delay for the

Page 18890

 1    submission of the Rule 65 ter summaries because a lot of the work that we

 2    do in preparation for the Defence case is work that needs to be done

 3    before these summaries are filed.  So we are not ready at this time to

 4    provide the Trial Chamber with a definite proposal, but we would like to

 5    know how you would like us to submit this, whether in oral arguments or

 6    whether in writing.  But basically our position is that we would like

 7    simply to -- start the 1st of June is a very good date.

 8            We have already begun working on our respective Defences, and we

 9    can meet this calendar and it's very good for us.  Just the filing of the

10    65 ter summaries could be delayed to one month before that date.  That

11    gives us the time to investigate and give much better summaries to the

12    Prosecution and the Trial Chamber.  So that's one issue we would like to

13    raise, and also the timing of the expert reports is something we would

14    like to address at some point also in relation to this.  So it's not the

15    timing with the dates for the beginning of the Defence, 1 June is very

16    good for us, it's just the timing of when we have to file specific

17    information, either to give it to the Prosecution or to file it officially

18    before the Trial Chamber.  Thank you, Mr. President.

19            JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  I suggest that you also deal with this

20    when you meet with the Prosecution today or tomorrow, and/or tomorrow,

21    because the timeliness of the filing of the Rule 65 ter lists is important

22    not only to yourself and to us but also to the Prosecution that have to do

23    their homework as well on it.  So please discuss it and let us know what

24    the respective positions are.

25            MR. BOURGON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President we just thought

Page 18891

 1    it would be appropriate to let you know that this is something we are

 2    looking into with the Prosecution already and we will continue to do so.

 3    Thank you, Mr. President.

 4            JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Mr. McCloskey?

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  As I thought and got reminded by

 6    Ms. Stewart, Alistair Graham is also out there.  We have been speaking

 7    about him with the Borovcanin team.  I'm not sure we need to call him, but

 8    they may want to cross-examine him.  This is something we have been

 9    talking about, but we need to resolve that as well.  And we also have

10    recently found a witness -- a very, very short witness.  And so we'll be

11    providing a motion to add a very short witness on to our list for January

12    and that will be coming very soon.

13            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  I saw you standing, Mr. Josse.

14            MR. JOSSE:  It was related to the matter that Mr. Bourgon

15    mentioned, but bearing in mind how Your Honour thought we should proceed,

16    I wasn't going to say anything at this particular juncture.  Clearly, the

17    Defence collectively will revert to the Trial Chamber if no agreement can

18    be reached with the Prosecution.

19            Could I briefly also whilst I'm on my feet mention Alistair Graham

20    only in this context.  I recall that when he was last before the Chamber,

21    I for one on behalf of our client said that I would want him to return.

22    Could I make it absolutely clear that unless the -- really the Borovcanin

23    team want him to return, we are not asking him to return simply for the

24    two or three questions that we might otherwise want to put to him.  I hope

25    I've made that clear.

Page 18892

 1            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you so much, Mr. Josse.  Mr. Lazarevic,

 2    I saw you also standing.

 3            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, just to confirm that we had discussion with

 4    the Prosecution, but it was a while ago and then after that we simply

 5    forgot this topic.  But I can assure the Trial Chamber that we will get in

 6    touch with the Prosecution and that you will have our position on this

 7    issue very soon.

 8            JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Do you need a chairman for the meetings, to

 9    prepare an agenda?  Because it's growing by the minute.

10            MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, I believe that we'll manage to resolve this

11    on our own.

12            JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  All right.

13            Mr. McCloskey?

14            So that brings today's sitting to an end.

15            We will be at your disposal tomorrow.  We will all be here.  So if

16    you encounter difficulties and you need to have a sitting at any time for

17    any time tomorrow, we are at your disposal.  Thank you.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.01 p.m.,

19                          to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

20                          December, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.