1 Friday, 11 January 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could
7 you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam.
11 Good morning, everybody. All the accused are here. From the
12 Defence teams, I only notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon. The Prosecution
13 composition of the Prosecution team is as yesterday. The witness is
14 already present.
15 Good morning to you, Colonel.
16 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
17 WITNESS: JOSEPH KINGORI [Resumed]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Lazarevic.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Thank you and good morning to you,
20 Your Honours. Good morning, Colonel.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]
22 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, yesterday we spoke about the action
23 taken by the 28th Division from the Srebrenica area, and I'm talking about
24 Serbian territory now, but can we just go back briefly to the subject that
25 you discussed with my learned friend Mr. Zivanovic, who was
1 cross-examining you, the shelling of Srebrenica.
2 I asked you about your proofing session yesterday. I asked you
3 about the proofing notes that you received from the OTP as well, and you
4 told me you've never seen those. Let me tell you one thing that I found
5 in those notes, and I'm expecting you to please just confirm whether you
6 shared anything like that with the OTP during your actual proofing or not.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
9 Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your
11 Honours, good morning, everyone.
12 Sorry to intervene so early. I'm don't know whether it's just a
13 translation or transcription issue. I don't think there's any evidence
14 and it's certainly not the case that this witness was furnished with my
15 proofing notes. I just wanted to clarify that before we went any further.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Then I apologise. It's probably,
17 then, a translation issue. I mean, the witness was very clear that he
18 never received this.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it is definitely, I mean, because that's what
20 the transcript says.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: This is why -- this is why I would just like to
22 quote this part of the proofing notes to the witness.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
24 Colonel, is it clear to you? No one is suggesting that you were
25 handed a copy of the proofing notes, but reference is going to be made to
1 them and you're going to be asked a question.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Fine, sir.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You see, Colonel, I'm looking at your proofing notes and I found
6 the following sentence. I'll read it back to you. Tell me whether you
7 shared anything like that with the OTP during the proofing?
8 [In English] "The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina Communication
9 Centre would constitute a legitimate military target."
10 [Interpretation] Therefore, is it your position that the Army's
11 Communication Centre would constitute a legitimate target, which it is
12 therefore legitimate to fire upon?
13 A. Yes, Your Honour, I agree.
14 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. If we could just elaborate on this
15 a little, may I ask you this: What about, for example, a building
16 housing the headquarters of a military unit, would that, too, constitute a
17 legitimate military target, sir?
18 A. Correct, Your Honour, it would.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to show you a document.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honours, I have to give a brief
21 explanation regarding this document.
22 We were working very hard on documents regarding this case, and
23 the late - "late" meant last evening - very lately, we discovered one
24 document which we found very significant for this case. I only have it in
25 hard copy, one copy in B/C/S. I already informed my colleague,
1 Mr. Thayer, about this document. We will do our best to provide the Trial
2 Chamber with a -- with translation of this document as soon as practical,
3 but we find it highly important for this case.
4 It's a document dated the 22nd of February, 1995. It is from
5 Srebrenica, and it is basically a list of premises that were used by the
6 28th Division within Srebrenica and the surrounding villages. It contains
7 something like - I didn't count it - but maybe around 20 places where
8 various portions of 28th Division's headquarters, staff communications
9 centre, and other -- other parts of 28th Division were located within
11 So I would just like to put it on the ELMO, so I don't know
12 whether the witness can help us much with it. It's in B/C/S, but I would
13 like to tender this document into evidence.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the -- what's the source of this document? Is
15 it a document provided by the Prosecution?
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: We found it on the EDS, and --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay, that's enough.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Colonel, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that you can't help us
20 much with this document, since we don't have it in a language that you
21 understand. But it is a very important document for our purposes, so I'll
22 be asking you questions about certain details from this document in order
23 to clarify a number of issues.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Can we just see the lower -- the upper
25 part? Is it possible to have the whole page on the screen?
1 Thank you.
2 Q. [Interpretation] You see, Colonel, this document was found within
3 the possession of the OTP. What we see here is the commander of the 28th
4 Division. As far as I can see, it says: "Inspection of the premises
5 used by the Armed Forces of the Republic of B and H, Tuzla Secretariat of
6 Defence," and then at "1" we see the Command of the 8th Operations Group
7 of Srebrenica.
8 Now you, told us already at one point in time the 28th Division
9 had its name changed to "Operations Group 8." Do you remember telling us
10 that, sir?
11 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
12 Q. You see what it says here, don't you? The commander or the HQ of
13 OG-8 is at a facility known as "Lovac" in Srebrenica's old town. Are you
14 familiar with that facility, sir?
15 A. I'm familiar with the name, not maybe the facility you're talking
16 about, but I'm familiar with the name "Lovac."
17 Q. At "B" we see that the facility is being used by the Command of
18 OG-8. There's the area mentioned, the surface, and it says it's being
19 used by the Command.
20 Roman numeral II, the 280 1st Light Infantry Brigade of Potocari,
21 the family home owned by Meho Hrvacic at Potocari. That's wait says. I
22 assume you don't know specifically which home this might be, but what this
23 document tells us is that it was used for the purposes of the 280th
25 Further, at 2(a), facility, old Territorial Defence staff in
1 Srebrenica. Do you happen to know where that building is located?
2 A. No. I don't know where it's located, unless maybe you give me a
3 specific location; otherwise, I don't know.
4 Q. I'd love to do that, but frankly I'm not entirely sure myself.
5 Believe me, Colonel, however, we shall find a way of demonstrating that.
6 If we look at the rest of this document, page 1 and page 2, there
7 is a list there of various facilities used either by the Command of OG-8
8 in Srebrenica or certain brigades that were part of OG-8. There are a
9 total of about 20 facilities, some in Srebrenica and some around
10 Srebrenica in the surrounding villages, apparently being used by various
11 HQs, commands, logistics, sections belonging to the 28th Division or OG-8.
12 In your opinion, sir, and based on everything you've told us so
13 far, would that -- or would those constitute, likewise, legitimate
14 military targets?
15 A. Your Honour, it depends on what these facilities were holding.
16 Right now, it's difficult to estimate or even know the kind of equipment
17 which were -- which were there to make it a military target.
18 As far as I know, the building that we were living in, that is,
19 the PTT building, as I said earlier, could have constituted a military
20 target because of its strategic position, and also it's housing the
21 communication equipment.
22 But, really, when you're talking about the whole enclave, then I
23 doubt how it can constitute a military target, and especially when you
24 know for sure it is holding very many civilians and you really do not want
25 the civilians to become a target. For any conventional force, you don't
1 target civilians, you do not, and you avoid hitting areas that have
2 civilians in them. So --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop.
4 Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Thayer, and Colonel, we allowed the question to
5 go and the witness to start answering it. However, we have moved from
6 what is or what would be a legitimate question to a question which
7 elicits, for all intents and purposes, an opinion by or from the witness
8 on what is strictly legal.
9 We're talking of what constitutes a legitimate target and what
10 doesn't. I mean, I don't think we should ask the witness to give us that
11 information. That is a legal matter that we can deal with at the right
12 moment or when the time comes.
13 So I would suggest that you move either to something else or to
14 refine or limit your question to what would be strictly acceptable.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] As always, Your Honour is right and
16 I'll skip to something different.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, the last thing we talked about yesterday
18 were the attacks launched by the 28th Division, at least based on
19 documents that we saw yesterday. These attacks were carried out against
20 Serb-held territory. You told us that you were familiar with that and
21 everything else that was going on.
22 I have another document from the same set now, the same set as the
23 previous document, I mean. The date is the 23rd of June, 1995. To all
24 practical intents, this is a monthly report by the 28th Division that was
25 forwarded to the 2nd Corps in Tuzla.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] It's in B/C/S, and the ERN number
2 is DA18-2435. Likewise, this is a B/C/S document.
3 Can we just look at the title page, if it could please be placed
4 on the ELMO, and then we shall be focusing on a portion -- a specific
5 portion on page 2 of this document.
6 Q. I just wanted you to look at the header of this document, sir. I
7 will translate that for your benefit. It says: "BH Army, Command of the
8 28th Division, Security section." There is the number and the date, the
9 23rd of June, 1995. This is a monthly report delivered to the 2nd Corps,
10 which is based in Tuzla.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please move on to page
12 2 of this document, second paragraph, please.
13 Q. We see item 3, the situation in the Command and units. I will
14 skip the first sentence, but then it goes on to say: "On the 22nd of
15 June, 1995, DIV Sabotage and Reconnaissance Platoons were dispatched by
16 units to carry out active sabotage in the general Kragljivode area and
17 along the Vlasenica-Han Pijesak Road. Acts of sabotage were launched in
18 order to provide assistance to units of the 1st, 2nd, and other Corps in
19 order to stretch enemy forces."
20 That is the end of the portion that I wanted to show you, sir.
21 What about what I've just told you, does that not, in essence,
22 confirm everything that we've been studying, based on previous documents
23 especially yesterday; namely, the fact that the 28th Division, which
24 obviously was within the Srebrenica enclave, was dispatching its sabotage
25 and reconnaissance platoons in order to carry out acts of sabotage outside
1 the enclave itself?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want to interrupt again, but this matter was
3 dealt with yesterday, I don't know whether by you or Mr. Zivanovic, and
4 the witness explained that insofar as attacks or actions or activities
5 outside the enclave itself, he could tell us nothing. In actual fact, he
6 could tell us barely anything about what was happening inside the enclave,
7 in any case, so I wouldn't like you to ask repetitive questions.
8 Actually, what we have in this document is almost a replication of
9 what we had in another document that we were shown yesterday.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] All right, Your Honour, I will then
11 move to another issue.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, what was your relationship with
13 Dutch-Bat or with UNPROFOR, generally speaking? Did you exchange
14 experiences, information, you and Dutch-Bat, their command, Colonel
15 Karremans, and everybody else there?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, correct me if I am wrong, Colonel, but I
17 think you were asked this question yesterday and you explained that you
18 were instructed to exchange views laterally, I remember, and vertically.
19 So if I'm not correct, if it was a different question, I stand to be
20 corrected, but I think it was. I think it was the same question, yes.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] The question was slightly different,
22 but this was the foundation of questions for the next line of documents
23 that I would like to show to the witness.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. There was some exchange of information between you and Dutch-Bat
2 in Srebrenica; right?
3 A. It's true, there was.
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now have 4D00128.
6 4D00128, please.
7 Q. Colonel, you see the document in front of you. It's in English.
8 You can read that document, but what I'm really interested in is the
10 This is a letter written by General Nikolai Cornelis and sent to
11 General Rasim Delic on the 26th of June, 1995.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to page 2 of
13 this document.
14 Q. Can you please read the first two paragraphs. They are rather
15 brief. The first one reads: [In English] "I also have to inform you that
16 the commanding officer of Dutch-Bat during the last few weeks for several
17 times had to warn your troops in the enclave to restrain from attacks
18 outside the safe area.
19 "As you will understand, these kinds of attacks cause responses
20 which endanger the safety of the civil population in the safe area and
21 make it very difficult for UNPROFOR to protect the safe area in any an
22 appropriate way."
23 [Interpretation] You see, General Nikolai sent this letter to
24 Rasim Delic, the BH Army general, informing him that UNPROFOR, or rather,
25 the Command of Dutch-Bat in Srebrenica were trying to prevent attacks
1 being carried out from within the enclave against the Serbs.
2 Did you receive this type of information from Dutch-Bat as well?
3 A. First of all, Your Honour, I don't know whether this letter is
4 directed to the CO Dutch-Bat. Secondly, the letter is on an UNPROFOR
5 letterhead, I think - that is what I saw - and is written by two people
6 who are not, I think, working with -- were not working with UNPROFOR. I
7 don't know, but is that what I saw on the first page?
8 I'm not trying to doubt the authenticity of the letter, but what
9 I'm saying is this letter was not addressed to CO Dutch-Bat, and I don't
10 think there's any way I could have come in contact with such a letter.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: That wasn't the question. The question, yes, let's
12 see the first page again.
13 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I was just going to ask that perhaps
15 to uncomplicate things, if the witness could just be given a thorough
16 opportunity to read the entire document.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think it's very important for the witness to
18 read the entire document, because the question that Mr. Lazarevic put to
19 him was: "On the basis of what you read in this document, did you ever
20 receive this type of information from Dutch-Bat?"
21 This is what Mr. Lazarevic wants to know from you.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honours, maybe while we wait for
23 the witness to finish reading this document, maybe I should read for the
24 record the DRN number for the first documents that I used today, because
25 I -- it simply slipped my mind.
1 The document we were dealing with premises used by the 28th
2 Division, dated 22nd of February, 1995, bears number DAA -- DA17-8185.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, you were able to read the whole letter
4 now, and you can see that it was sent by General Nikolai of UNPROFOR to
5 General Rasim Delic, as you can see in the letterhead. You can also see
6 who received it. Therefore, General Nikolai sent this information for
7 which he says he had received from the Dutch-Bat commander.
8 My question is: Did you receive the same information from the
9 Dutch-Bat commander?
10 A. Your Honour, I did not receive any information concerning this,
11 this letter, or any issues therein, only that at least I know there was no
12 fuel. But information coming from Dutch-Bat concerning this, I did not
14 Q. I would like to ask you another thing concerning this matter.
15 Concerning these events, there was an investigation conducted by Dutch-Bat
16 members. Did you know that?
17 A. Your Honour, I think there's one thing that I may try to clear, in
18 that it's not everything that was going on in Dutch-Bat that I had to
19 know. They did not have to tell me everything, and, in fact, there was no
20 obligation for them to tell me anything. Likewise, even what we heard is
21 not -- was not necessarily to be directed or communicated to them in any
22 way whatsoever, other than where we think there is a mutual interest in
23 some of these issues.
24 The letters, they were being directed to them, and they didn't
25 have to disclose whether the letters had gone to them or even the contents
1 of those letters to any of us. There was no obligation on that.
2 Q. Yes, I understand that fully. However, there was an order in
3 place -- well, I'm not sure whether it was an order or an instruction for
4 you to cooperate with them, to cooperate with the Dutch-Bat command. Both
5 you and them were members of the UN; therefore, such cooperation would
6 only have been logical.
7 What I find interesting is that these are significant incidents
8 with dozens of killed and wounded on the Serb side, and yet it seems you
9 did not exchange that type of information with Dutch-Bat members. This is
10 what I'm interested in.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have a look at
12 4D129 in relation to that.
13 Q. Again, it is the 26th of June, 1995, and, again, General Nikolai
14 is sending a letter to General Mladic this time. Therefore, there was
15 communication at that level between General Nikolai and General Delic as
16 well as General Mladic.
17 In the first paragraph of the letter, it reads: [In English] "In
18 response to your letter number 06/17-441 of 24 June 1995 with reports on
19 several attacks from the safe area of Srebrenica, I ordered an immediate
20 investigation. That investigation made me recognise that at the times and
21 places mentioned in your letter, combat activities by BiH troops had
22 really occurred."
23 [Interpretation] You can see from the letter that General Nikolai
24 is confirming that those attacks had occurred and that there was an
25 investigation. Do you have an explanation as to why this -- this was not
1 known to you, since you were an UN monitor?
2 A. Your Honour, when you say that these things happened and I did not
3 know, what there is is that when somebody these things are happening at
4 higher levels, the generals' level and all that, sometimes it may not
5 trickle down to us down there. The fact is I was not informed of this
6 kind of investigation. I'm not aware of it; and if the results were made
7 to anybody, or if the investigations were ordered by somebody, somewhere,
8 their reports were made to somebody, somewhere. I'm not aware of them.
9 If these activities were happening at the general command level,
10 definitely they did not necessarily have to trickle down to us, maybe, but
11 I don't know why we were -- we were not informed. And if we were to be
12 informed, it's -- it's not at a personal level. It would have been at
13 UNMO level, maybe from UNMO headquarters all the way down to us, as a team
14 down there, and this did not happen at all.
15 Q. Very well. I'll move on.
16 I've already shown you a number of documents concerning the arming
17 of the units within the enclave, but I'd like to show you a footage now in
18 e-court just to explain to you. According to our information, it was
19 taken on the 10th of July, 1995, in Srebrenica town itself. We've
20 received that piece of information from the OTP, and we have no reason to
21 doubt it. We have no reason to doubt that it was taken on that day.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] It was -- it is 4D0014.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] We can stop now.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, do you recognise the location where this
1 footage was taken?
2 A. This should have been, according to what I saw, should have been
3 in Srebrenica.
4 Q. We can see a gas station there. If I remember correctly, since I
5 visited it several times, it is right across the PTT building in
6 Srebrenica; am I correct in saying that?
7 A. Yeah, yeah, you're correct.
8 Q. As I understood from your testimony, you said that on the 9th of
9 July, that is, one day before that, you went to Srebrenica and Potocari
10 together with Major Tetteh. On the 10th of July, you were not in
11 Srebrenica itself as this was taking place. But you also told us that
12 your interpreter, Emir Suljagic, received an order for you -- from you to
13 go to Srebrenica and to report.
14 Since your interpreter was there at the time and informing you on
15 the Srebrenica events, did you receive any information that there was
16 mortar fire being opened on the town from Srebrenica itself on the Serb
18 A. Your Honour, he did not tell us anything to do with that. But
19 maybe on the 10th, maybe by the time the firing was taking place, I don't
20 know. Maybe that is the time he had already left to come back to -- maybe
21 the timing, if you tell us the timings, I can know whether he had come
22 back to Potocari or not.
23 Also, it's worth noting that by this time, the BiH had already
24 taken some of the weapons from the Bravo Company, so this is a different
25 scenario altogether. It's a different scenario altogether, as far as I
1 can see.
2 Q. Yes, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I only want to know
3 whether, in your sitreps, we can find any information that mortar shells
4 are being fired by the Army of B and H from Srebrenica on the Serb
5 positions and that such fire was being opened from the location of the gas
6 station, or rather, right across the street from the PTT building, if you
7 prefer that.
8 A. There was nothing like that in our reports.
9 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted to ask you.
10 We've already seen 4D0002. It is the statement of Ramiz
11 Becirovic, and we agreed that you know him. The date is the 11th of
12 August. I would like to discuss some other parts of his statement.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 4D0002 shown
14 in e-court. Let us go to page 4 in the B/C/S and page 5 in the English,
16 Q. As you can see in the second paragraph from the top: [In English]
17 "Agreements on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica, we had to disarm
18 completely. We barely managed to secure some older weapons in disrepair
19 to hand over to UNPROFOR."
20 [Interpretation] Concerning your previous answer, Ramiz Becirovic
21 in his statement says that the weapons handed over to UNPROFOR were old
22 and dysfunctional; and on this footage, we could see a fully functional
24 Did you know that at the time you were there all of the weapons
25 that had been handed over to UNPROFOR were actually inoperable and old?
1 A. No. We were not checking the usability state of the weapons.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like us now to go to page 12
3 in the B/C/S and - excuse me - page 14 in the English, towards the middle
4 of the page.
5 Q. As you can see, well, in answering Mr. Zivanovic's questions
6 concerning the number of fighters and people who were members of the
7 division, towards the middle of the page, it says: [In English] "A column
8 which sets out that evening was not established, but in my estimate there
9 were between 10.000 and 15.000 people. I had around 6.000 troops, without
10 counting the troops from Zepa."
11 [Interpretation] Do you have any reason to believe that Ramiz
12 Becirovic, who was Chief of Staff of the 28th Division, did not have 6.000
13 troops, excluding non-fighters and women?
14 A. Your Honour, I think there's -- there's one thing we need maybe to
15 know. Holding 10.000 to 15.000 troops in Srebrenica, as I said yesterday,
16 is a bit difficult. A conventional force of ten to 15 thousand troops
17 definitely is -- it cannot be able to. But what I am saying here is,
18 according to my own interpretation, war is fought from very many fronts,
19 very many fronts, and propaganda is one of them.
20 I'm not saying that this is propaganda, but when you are
21 communicating issues to other authorities, you may want to show how good
22 you are, how organised you are. The opposite is also true, the others on
23 the other side who also try to do the same.
24 What am I trying to say here? Ten thousand to 15 thousand
25 soldiers in an enclave, and especially where we were in Srebrenica itself,
1 we could not have failed to notice that.
2 This, you're saying, is between the 11th and 12th July? 11th and,
3 I think, 12th of July.
4 Q. Colonel, I apologise. You furnished us with the same answer
5 yesterday, stating that you doubt the existence of those. However,
6 potentially, having in mind the number of men within the enclave and the
7 rest, that figure could have been as high as this?
8 A. Would you maybe, if I may request, come up with a date? What date
9 is this? Is it the 11th and 12th, so that I can continue?
10 Q. Maybe this is the cause of our misunderstanding. We are talking
11 about a column of men which were trying to break out towards Tuzla. It is
12 Ramiz Becirovic's assessment that the column comprised ten to 15 thousand
13 people, out of which 6.000 were troops, soldiers. That is the piece of
14 information that Ramiz Becirovic is furnishing here, saying that he had
15 6.000 soldiers at his disposal.
16 This is what is contained in that part of the statement. This is
17 the 11th of July, in the afternoon, when the column started from Susnjari
18 towards Tuzla, trying to break out.
19 A. Yeah. It is possible, if each and every person -- if each and
20 every person was taken to be a soldier; and maybe even if you're given a
21 weapon, if you're given a gun and you become a soldier, yeah, it is
22 possible to get this number. Especially, when you -- when you're escaping
23 and each and every one is armed, definitely, people in the enclave were
24 more than this.
25 But a conventional -- what I'm disputing is this. A conventional
1 force with 10.000 to 15.000 people, I can't contemplate it being able to
2 be housed in Srebrenica. But if, as I have just said, if you are going to
3 say each and every person, each and every child who is above 15 or so
4 years or so, you give him a gun and he becomes a soldier, each and every
5 old man, I mean, it is possible because the people are there.
6 Q. Very well. I won't press any further, but I'd like to go back to
7 a question I had already posed.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let us please go to page 17 in the
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, one moment.
11 Colonel, we are not actually talking at any time here of a
12 conventional army of between ten to 15 thousand people. I think that was
13 made clear to you by Mr. Lazarevic, and it is clear from the document
14 itself, that ten to 15 thousand people are basically the number of people
15 that made the column or composed the column. When it comes to troops,
16 what Becirovic is saying here that, not counting the troops from Zepa, he
17 had around 6.000 troops.
18 Now, I have heard what you had to say yesterday and what you
19 basically repeated again today. What's not clear in my mind is how you
20 can reconcile the possibility of there being 6.000 individuals who are
21 given a weapon and all of a sudden they become soldiers, so to say, with
22 what you maintained yesterday, saying that the amount of weapons in
23 Srebrenica was minimal or almost nonexistent.
24 If they could arm, give a weapon to 6.000 people, what do you have
25 to say about that?
1 THE WITNESS: I mean, 6.000 people, as far as I can see here, is
2 not necessarily giving each and every person a gun. It could be a weapon,
3 any kind of weapon, any kind of weapon. Like, if there is a pistol, a
4 pistol is not a weapon that one can go fight with. Forming a section is
5 really not necessarily that each and every person has to have a gun.
6 You know, there's no reason -- there's no clear indication that we
7 are getting from this letter that these 6.000 were armed. They can be
8 troops, but not armed. They can be called troops, but not necessarily
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Lazarevic. I'm not going to
11 ask him any further questions myself.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. One more thing concerning your statement. I'd like to have your
14 comment about it. At page 17 in the English, in the third paragraph, it
15 reads: [In English] "... Command was located in the area of the old town
16 and the hunters social centre."
17 [Interpretation] Is this not consistent with the document I have
18 shown you recently, where Ramiz Becirovic says that the Division Command
19 was in the Lovac facility, as we can see from this document as
20 well, "Lovac" meaning "hunter" in B/C/S?
21 A. Your Honour, I didn't see where you read because it was not shown.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] It's on page 17, third paragraph.
23 Q. It's the paragraph starts with, "Throughout these developments,"
24 and the next sentence says: "The Division Command was located in the area
25 of the old town and the hunters' social centre ..."
1 It's the second sentence in the third paragraph of.
2 A. I can see it.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Is this consistent with what we saw earlier in
4 another document, where it states that the 28th Division Command was
6 A. Your Honour, there's something I did -- I did not know, that the
7 headquarters was located in that place.
8 Q. Very well. Let us move on to another topic.
9 On the 10th of July, you were already at the base in Potocari; and
10 according to the information we have, and according to numerous evidence
11 before this Chamber, by that time a great many people -- a great many
12 people started leaving Srebrenica towards Potocari and they began
13 assembling around the base. Is it correct or not?
14 A. It is correct, because they are streaming into Potocari and
15 Srebrenica itself.
16 Q. Thank you. The very next day, on the 11th of July, the Serb
17 forces entered the town of Srebrenica, which by that time was empty.
18 People had already left. Does that tally with what you could see at the
20 A. The entry of the Serbs mainly was from the -- the Bratunac side;
21 that is, going via Potocari all the way up towards Srebrenica. This
22 happened that day, so they entered from the Bratunac side. So the ones we
23 are talking about, from entering Srebrenica from anywhere else, we were
24 not aware at that particular moment.
25 Q. Very well. Perhaps this does not correspond fully to the data I
1 have. But if this is your testimony and your knowledge, I have nothing to
2 observe. However, I'm interested in the following --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
4 Where were you, exactly, on the 11th of July when the Bosnian
5 Serbs or VRS forces entered Srebrenica?
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, on the 11th, I was in Potocari,
7 Dutch-Bat compound.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So you couldn't see what was happening on the other
9 side of Srebrenica?
10 THE WITNESS: That's correct, that's what I said. I did not see
11 what was happening on the other side, but I saw now the entry from the
12 Bratunac side.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think that's clear enough. I mean, he
14 is not contradicting any other evidence there may be.
15 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Kingori, you said, didn't you, that Serbs
16 went to Srebrenica from the Bratunac side via Potocari?
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Because I was in
18 Potocari, I could see them going towards Srebrenica from that side.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In any case, you arrived in Potocari from Srebrenica. That was
22 the route you took, Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar, on the 9th?
23 A. The direction we took was from Srebrenica down towards Potocari;
24 and Zeleni Jadar, I don't remember. I mean, we were not going towards
25 that direction. Zeleni Jadar, I think, is in exactly the opposite
2 Q. I apologise. It was a mistake in the transcript or I may have
3 misspoken, in which case I apologise. I'm asking these questions for the
4 following reason: Do you know who it was that decided, for the people
5 from Srebrenica who were there on the 10th, to take the same route you did
6 for Potocari?
7 A. Well, as far as I know, there's nobody who told them, but it's
8 common sense that the safer place was now towards where the UNPROFOR is.
9 It's common sense, so I think that is -- that is exactly what they
10 followed. Even ourselves, that is the route we followed. We found that
11 we would be safer when we are, all of us, together in one particular
12 place, and especially when we are in a battalion headquarter where there
13 is a bit of defence and where the BSA would think twice before -- before
14 hitting, because at least they know we are there.
15 There's nothing we are going to do to them, and that is a safer
16 place. That is why these -- the Muslims also maybe thought that is wiser,
17 to go towards that direction, where they think they have safety and
19 Q. So if I understand your answer correctly, since it was quite a
20 lengthy one, you say that no one actually took the decision to go from
21 Srebrenica to the Potocari base. It was just a reasonable line of
22 thinking that made those people go there; is that your evidence?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
24 Mr. Thayer.
25 MR. THAYER: It's asked and answered, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Let us, please, go back to
3 Ramiz Becirovic's statement, 4D02, page 12. We've spoken about this
4 already a lot already. Page 12 in the English.
5 [In English] Can we scroll it down a bit just to make sure the
6 witness can see the lower part.
7 Q. [Interpretation] You see, towards the bottom of this page, there's
8 the word "UNPROFOR."
9 This is five or six lines from the bottom: [In English] "That
10 UNPROFOR soldiers were directing the inhabitants to Potocari. When I
11 asked why, I was told that they, too, had the intention of moving on to
13 [Interpretation] Did you know anything to indicate that UNPROFOR
14 soldiers were sending people from Srebrenica to Potocari or telling them
15 to go there?
16 A. No. I did not have such information at all.
17 Q. Thank you. My next question is very similar.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] But can we please just move on to
19 page 14 of the English, the top of the page. It's the same document.
20 Q. Again, I will ask you this: Did you know about this? You see,
21 the second sentence from the top of the page: [In English] "I ordered the
22 signalmen to go out on the hill and establish communication with the Corps
23 Command. We remained behind and determined the manner of movement, the
24 sequence of units, security methods, and reconnoitering. At the rear, the
25 column would head towards Tuzla.
1 "The order was issued that the entire civilian population located
2 there set off, but they were free to decide whether they would go with us
3 or head towards UNPROFOR."
4 [Interpretation] Did you have information to the effect that the
5 population from Srebrenica had been ordered to go to Potocari by the Corps
6 Command? Did you know about that? A simple "yes" or "no" will do,
7 please. There's no need to go any further into this.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: But, Mr. President, I just don't think that's what's
10 represented in the plain language of the document, as I read it. It
11 appears that they were given a choice.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Yes, I can -- I can understand. They
14 had a choice whether to go to Potocari or to go through the woods, but not
15 to make any other decisions, because here it says the order was issued
16 that the entire civilian population located there set off, and that was my
17 question. They are free to decide whether they would go "with us,"
18 meaning with the army through the woods, or head towards UNPROFOR.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead and answer the question, please,
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it's clearly indicated here that they
22 were not forced to go to any direction. They were free to either follow
23 these guys to the -- towards Tuzla or go to -- to Potocari. They were
24 free to make their own choice.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. This document shows clearly that there was no third option for
2 them; namely, to stay where they were. That was not an option, was it?
3 A. Your Honour, it's not indicated here, but that does not mean that
4 it was not there. Only that, as I said earlier, if I may have to repeat
5 it, their direction towards -- they had to move to a safe place. The
6 issue here is safety and security, safety and security. And if it were
7 me, definitely I would have moved towards Potocari because I could believe
8 that it was more secure and safer.
9 Q. Very well. Let us just clarify one thing. In essence, you've
10 answered the question already, but let's just dispel any doubts that may
12 Did you, and I mean the UNMOs, the Dutch-Bat Command
13 representatives of military or civilian authorities, have any sort of
14 meeting about what would become of the civilians should they go, should
15 they stay, if they were going, where would they be going to? Did you
16 discuss anything like that during your meeting?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, if we could just have a time frame for
19 this, because these decisions were potentially taken at different
20 locations at different times for different reasons.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] By all means, by all means.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
23 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The time period that I have in mind would be, roughly speaking,
1 somewhere around the 8th and 9th, the 10th, possibly the 11th of July,
2 over those four days. Because we know that on the 11th of July, or by the
3 11th of July, the population of Srebrenica had moved to Potocari already.
4 Were there any debate in those days as to what the civilians would
5 be doing? Would they be going, would they be staying, and I mean of
6 course in terms of your own personal experience, attending any such
7 meetings, sir?
8 A. Your Honour, what there is is that we had no meeting to discuss or
9 even direct the people to go to any place. That was not discussed
10 anywhere that they would go directly towards a certain direction. In
11 fact, what really happened is that when the people started streaming
12 towards Srebrenica, we realised that it's becoming an issue, that many
13 people are going towards there. But there was no meeting that I can
14 recall that we discussed where these people were to go.
15 The only thing we did is when they came in and they filled the
16 whole Dutch-Bat compound, that is, that whole factory, we decided that,
17 for the rest, we would place them next to the road just short of the
18 Potocari Dutch-Bat compound. But on where they were to be taken, I mean,
19 the direction they were to take from Srebrenica, we never had such a
20 meeting that I can recall.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.
22 I would like to see another short video clip. You may be able to
23 identify a number of faces from Srebrenica.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] This is P02047 from Srebrenica.
25 The footage was taken on the 10th of July, 1995.
1 Q. I would like to show you that particular portion of the footage,
2 and we'll stop at a certain point.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Stop here.
5 Q. [Interpretation] This is the 10th of July, 1995 footage from
6 Potocari. You saw the subtitles and you could follow what was being said
7 in the footage.
8 My apologies. This is Srebrenica, not Potocari. I seem to have
9 misspoken again. The footage was taken at Srebrenica on the 10th of July.
10 You saw a man there saying, and the subtitles reflected
11 that, "They are forcing us to go to Potocari. Block the road." He is now
12 addressing the civilians.
13 Can you tell us who this man could have had in mind when he
14 said, "They are forcing us to go to Potocari"? Why was he addressing the
15 people there, asking them to block the road? What can you tell us about
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, without some further foundation, I think
19 this question really just calls for a sheer speculation as to why somebody
20 might be doing something.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's move to your next question,
22 Mr. Lazarevic.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Fine. Let me just finish this.
24 Q. At any rate, on the 10th of July, in the town of Srebrenica
25 itself, there are no Serb soldiers, not yet. Can you confirm that?
1 A. Your Honour, there is no Serb soldiers at that time in Srebrenica.
2 Q. Yes, and it seems to follow from that that the Serb Army could not
3 possibly have been the one to order anyone to leave Srebrenica, which is
4 what seems to follow from your answer. Would that seem to be a fact, sir?
5 A. I don't know whether it would be towards something there.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can safely go to your next question.
7 Mr. Lazarevic, when you realise that a witness knows next to nothing on a
8 particular event or on a particular chapter in the events that we're
9 talking about, and you have and we have other evidence that we have heard,
10 why waste your time on him? So at the end of the day, what is he going to
11 tell you?
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll move on to
13 something else.
14 Can we please have P0009.
15 Q. You see, Colonel, this is a letter written by the president of the
16 Presidency, Osman Suljic, and we know that you know who he was. He was
17 the president of the Presidency of Srebrenica Municipality. He sent this
18 letter on the 7th of July, 1995, to President Ramiz Becirovic and the
19 General of the Army, General Rasim Delic.
20 We can see the date on the face of this document. If you look at
21 the lower half of the document, you will be going through the entire
22 document, but the portion that I'm interested in is the paragraph where it
23 reads: "The civilian authorities were left with the last unpopular step
24 of saving the population. It is stressed that a meeting at the level of
25 state and military organs of the RBH should organised with the aggressor
1 side with the aim at fighting and possibility to open a corridor to be
2 used by the population to move to the nearest free territory of the RBH
3 under the control of the international players."
4 This document was produced by Osman Suljic. It's a letter that he
5 wrote. Can we use this to infer that as early as the 9th of July, 1995,
6 the possibility was reviewed of moving the entire civilian population out
7 of the Srebrenica enclave, and that, in fact, this is something that was
8 done by the local authorities?
9 A. Your Honour, this happened, or this letter is written, though the
10 time is not indicated, on the 9th of July. This is the date we left
11 Srebrenica. That's the time we left the PTT building for Potocari . And
12 as it is indicated in my statement, at this time these people felt very
13 insecure, after we gave our intention to depart from Srebrenica to
14 Potocari. That insecurity may have caused a lot of panic, which is true,
15 and definitely they did not know where else to go, who else to talk to,
16 and maybe even the ultimate place where they would be headed for.
17 This letter, as you can see, I think it was one out of
18 desperation, where the president did not know what else to do with the
19 population. But he's saying that they may find a possibility to open a
20 corridor for the population to move to the nearest free territory; that
21 is, to ensure that the people are safe.
22 In essence, the -- the way we should be looking at this issue is
23 that the enclave had already been encroached by the Bosnian Serb Army, and
24 this was from all sides, almost all sides. It's like the Muslims were
25 being crushed in one place, sort of, and they had now to look for a
1 possible exist from the problems that they were already in, the
2 bombardment, the harassment, and the possible decimation by the BSA,
3 because these guys were really pounding on Srebrenica in a way that they
4 really do not want anyone to -- I mean, they wanted the whole enclave, all
5 the people inside there, either to be -- to be killed or to vacate, one of
6 them, and it is indicated even in my statement.
7 So what I'm trying to say here is that they had to look a safe way
8 out, they had to look for a safe way out, not necessarily because of their
9 own will to leave the enclave, but because they are forced by
10 circumstances under which the bombardment was happening. They were being
11 bombarded, and they were left with no option but to try to escape from
12 this place. Otherwise, they would be killed all of them together.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness. I would like to ask you something, though.
14 My question was a very simple one. Basically, it would have elicited a
15 yes-or-no answer. It is not my intention to offend you or to interrupt
16 any of the answers you think to provide, although it is, as it happens,
17 filled with speculation and mere assumptions. But can we please just try
18 to wrap this up as quickly and expeditiously as possible. Otherwise, I
19 will not be able to comply with my remit here, and I will be leaving no
20 time for my learned friends from the other Defence teams. Please bear
21 this in mind for the benefit of the Chamber and all the other Defence
22 teams, if you can.
23 Now I'll continue to follow the timeline of your statement to the
24 OTP. This is page 8 of the B/C/S version and the English version as well.
25 You testified that on the 11th of July, 1995, a meeting was held
1 which you personally did not attend. The meeting was held between General
2 Mladic and Colonel Karremans, but you clearly state that you don't
3 remember who called that meeting, who asked for that meeting. Was it the
4 VRS or Colonel Karremans, you're not sure. You remember that portion of
5 your statement to the OTP, do you not, sir?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Now I'd like us again to look at some footage which might be able
8 to jog your memory a little. You'll watch it in e-court now, and you will
9 hear what those two participants had to say.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. So you heard General Mladic ask Karremans what he wanted. He
13 says, "You called the meeting, you asked for the meeting." Would this jog
14 your memory? Would this help you remember who was the first to ask for a
15 meeting, and I'm referring to the meeting that was eventually held on the
16 11th at the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac?
17 A. I wish you would play it again. I can't give the voice to
18 whichever person, so --
19 Q. Let me tell you this, sir. We do have a transcript of this
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] This is P02048, and it's page 16.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't like to interrupt you, but again, where
23 do you think are you going to get? Where do you think you're getting? You
24 have the tape and you have Mladic speaking and saying. Is his testimony
25 going to change anything?
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I was only trying to --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: But at the end of the day, even if he told you, "No,
3 it was Mladic who was at the meeting," is it going to change anything?
4 What Mladic says on the tape is what he says, I mean, so I don't know.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, yes, Your Honour, maybe I don't -- I really
6 don't need to insist on this, of course. However, I notice that the
7 witness couldn't remember certain details, and this was just for the
8 purpose to refresh his memory. However, I can skip to something else.
9 But then I will first ask the witness -- of course, he wasn't present
10 there, but I will ask him only one question in this respect.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, were I to tell you that the issue
12 of moving the refugees who were at Potocari to Tuzla territory was first
13 raised by Colonel Karremans, were I to tell you that he was the first to
14 bring this up with Mladic and ask him to talk on behalf of the civilians
15 in Potocari about moving them to Tuzla, would that be consistent with what
16 you actually witnessed there?
17 A. Your Honour, if you go back to my statement, you will see that I
18 indicated that there is a time that I talked to General Ratko Mladic, and
19 the plan was if the civilians, because now the UN had to move and General
20 Mladic had already indicated that the UN must leave that place, where were
21 the civilians to go to, then we said that, and I remember I'm the one who
22 told General Mladic, that the UN would prepare to evacuate, to remove the
23 people from there because they cannot be left there. They would not be
24 safe. They will not be -- is it working? Yeah. They will not be safe in
25 that place.
1 So when I asked him, when I told him that it is the intention of
2 the UN to remove the people from there, to provide buses, the general said
3 that he's already been able to get his own buses. He will get his own
4 buses and bring them over, to pick the people from Srebrenica itself.
5 Q. Colonel, it is not my intention to interrupt you, but I do have
6 the questions here about that. I just wanted to follow the timeline and
7 then sort of link these up. I promise that I'll be asking you further
8 questions about the meeting and what you said to Mladic at the time.
9 My intention was to ask you whether you, in fact, knew that
10 Colonel Karremans was the first to raise this, but you weren't there,
11 yourself; therefore, I'm not pressing the matter.
12 I'd like us to look at something else now. This is a document
13 that you produced. It's an UNMO report dated the 11th of July, 1995,
14 Attachment 16 to your statement.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] This is P00510.
16 Q. So you have that in front of you, don't you?
17 A. Yes, I do. It's dated the 11th of July, 1995.
18 Q. Indeed. To the extent that I can see, it was dispatched at 1745
19 hours; right?
20 A. Yeah, it was.
21 Q. At paragraph 2, in the last line of this report, it says: [In
22 English] "... Tuzla is a possibility in the coming days."
23 [Interpretation] At that right, sir, that's what it says, doesn't
25 A. Where did you read that, para 2?
1 Q. [In English] It's second paragraph, last sentence: "... Movement
2 out of the enclave."
3 A. You're saying the refugees are moving to the northern part of the
4 enclave and the food situation is becoming critical? I don't know where
5 that is on.
6 Q. Yes, and next sentence?
7 A. "The movement out of enclave towards Tuzla region is a possibility
8 in the coming days."
9 Q. Yes, that's the one I'm referring to.
10 [Interpretation] Can you confirm that that's what the sitrep says,
11 the one that left at 1745; right?
12 A. Yes, Your Honour. This is an UNMO assessment.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Believe me, there's nothing tricky about
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Should we take a break? I mean, it's
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we'll have a 25-minute break.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau, having followed cross-examination of
21 Mr. Lazarevic of over two hours already, how much time do you think you
22 will need?
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, one hour and a half,
24 I think. I'm ready to make an effort if we must finish with the witness
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We must. I said that loud and clear yesterday.
2 Mr. Josse?
3 MR. JOSSE: I really would like my hour and a half as well, Your
4 Honour. The -- could I make this remark? I'd rather have done it in the
5 absence of the witness. But since I addressed the Court very briefly
6 yesterday, I've had an opportunity to look at a document that he brought
7 to The Hague, which was disclosed on Tuesday, and I would like to ask him
8 about it at some length.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
10 Mr. Lazarevic, how long --
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you think you require,
13 Mr. Lazarevic?
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honour, during this break, I
15 really looked at the questions that I prepared, and I deleted a large
16 number of questions from my list. However, we are progressing relatively
17 slowly, I have to admit this, and --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's certainly not the Trial Chamber's fault.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm going to need -- yes, of course, and I really
20 was doing my best to organise my questions in order to speed up things,
21 but it's very difficult with --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. You have to conclude in ten minutes,
23 Mr. Lazarevic. You've been already two hours and a half, so you have ten
24 minutes, and the rest of the time needs to be divided between you,
25 Mr. Josse and Ms. Fauveau.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, can I please confer for one minute
2 with Madame Fauveau and Mr. Josse, because --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and you have re-examination?
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, right now I have very limited
7 re-examination, but considering that we've got what I anticipate to be two
8 substantial cross-examinations, I may need a few more minutes, based on
9 some of the questions that are asked. I just can't predict that, but I
10 will need some perhaps 15 minutes, I would say.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Meek.
12 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 We had originally put an hour down and we reserved 30 minutes, so
14 we certainly are not waiving that.
15 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, if the Trial Chamber are saying the
16 witness has to be finished today, then clearly that's a decision and we'll
17 all have to abide by it. But if the witness is going to go over to
18 Monday, then, in my submission, there is no point doing this with unseemly
19 haste, particularly bearing in mind how this trial has proceeded hitherto.
20 I say that with the greatest of respect.
21 But if it's going to end today, then clearly there won't be time
22 for any re-examination and we will -- we will all tailor our
23 cross-examinations accordingly, if that's the order of the Court. But if
24 not, then, as I say, there is no point, to use the same expression, doing
25 this with unseemly haste, in my submission.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: What we will do is the following: You'll have 20
3 more minutes, Mr. Lazarevic. Mr. Josse and Ms. Fauveau, you will have one
4 hour each. You will have 15 minutes for re-examination, which means we
5 won't be able to finish by quarter to 2:00, which ultimately means that we
6 will reconvene in this same courtroom at a quarter past 2.00 and continue
7 from there. All right?
8 Yes, 20 minutes, Mr. Lazarevic.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honour, if you could please issue
10 an instruction to the witness just to answer with short answers, if
11 possible, of course, because otherwise I don't know how to proceed.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, I will do two things. I will do that.
13 Witness, please try to be concise as much as you can in your
14 answers, and you, Mr. Lazarevic, please avoid long-winded questions or
15 going around in circles when you can put a very straightforward question,
16 because that is what has been happening today and yesterday.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will obey to this ruling.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, Colonel, we saw the sitrep already and
19 when it was sent. Can you confirm to me that the issue of evacuation of
20 the refugees was discussed and arranged before Colonel Karremans met with
21 General Mladic at 8.00 in the evening that day? Please answer with a
22 "yes" or "no."
23 A. There's no indication that that was discussed.
24 Q. Very well. In the report, it says: [In English] "Movement out of
25 the enclave is a possibility in the coming days."
1 [Interpretation] That is what I had in mind concerning to that
2 part of sitrep. Does that change your answer in any way?
3 A. Your Honour, it does not, because this is an assessment by the
4 SMO. An assessment is not necessarily coming out of a meeting.
5 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to the arrival of Serb forces in
7 You've testified before this Chamber that according to what you
8 could see, the first soldiers to enter Potocari wore black uniforms. They
9 were followed by others, by other soldiers in different uniforms.
10 Testifying in the Krstic trial, you said that a group of soldiers
11 entered the base to check whether there were any BiH soldiers inside. You
12 also said that you knew some of those people and that one of them was
13 Major Nikolic; your interpreter, Petar; and Colonel Vukovic, and that the
14 whole thing lasted for about a quarter of an hour. Do you stand by your
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. In your statement to the Prosecutor and your testimony so far, I
18 understood that you knew Major Nikolic from earlier. It is the person we
19 know by the name of "Momir Nikolic," just to confirm; is that correct?
20 A. The person I know is the one we were calling "Major Nikolic." I
21 don't know the other names.
22 Q. Very well. In your statement, this Major Nikolic, at page 3 in
23 the B/C/S and the same page in the English, you described him as
24 follows: "Major Nikolic was the commander of the local unit of the BSA.
25 He at least presented himself as the commander."
1 [Interpretation] Can you confirm that here today as well?
2 A. Yes. He told us that is the local commander of the BSA in that
4 Q. You saw Major Nikolic in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th of
5 July; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct, Your Honour.
7 Q. Let us move on to the 13th of July. According to your statement
8 to the Prosecutor at page 10, you say that the evacuation of the
9 population from Potocari began on the 13th of July, around 7.00 a.m. Can
10 you confirm that here today?
11 A. Yeah. I can't see a copy of the statement, but I think that is
12 the date started.
13 Q. Very well. My learned friend, Mr. Prosecutor, can verify that,
14 whether I quoted it precisely.
15 Another thing concerning this issue: On the 13th of July, 1995,
16 did the evacuation process begin prior to the arrival of the Serb forces
17 in Potocari? Did the members of the Dutch-Bat initiate evacuation alone,
18 without the presence of any Serb forces, on the 13th of July?
19 A. That is not true.
20 Q. If I told you that there is testimony here of a Dutch soldier who
21 participated in it and who said that they, themselves, initiated the
22 evacuation, would that change your answer?
23 A. Your Honour, it will not, because I saw it. I saw the evacuation,
24 I was there as a military observer, and I know what I saw and witnessed.
25 Q. In your statement --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
2 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just to clarify the previous statement
3 with respect to the evacuation starting at 0700 on the 13th, I have read
4 the reference in the witness statement and I would just ask my friend to
5 make a clarification and actually read the portion of the statement,
6 because it is slightly different and it may make a difference. I don't
7 want there to be any confusion on the record, and I can just state it.
8 It says: "The next day, 13 July, the evacuation resumed at 0700,"
9 and I think the question was "The evacuation started." I just didn't want
10 there to be any lack of clarity about when it happened.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's clear.
12 Mr. Lazarevic.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I'm fine with what my colleague said.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, so let's move on to your next question.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I said it in B/C/S. This is why it occurred.
16 Q. [Interpretation] I understood that on the 13th, at a certain point
17 in time, you left Potocari for Srebrenica and then returned, whereupon you
18 met Major Nikolic at the base on the 13th. Is that correct?
19 A. That's correct, Your Honour.
20 Q. If I understood correctly, if I understood the gist of your
21 testimony, those who were evacuated first were those who were outside the
22 base in Potocari; and after that phase of evacuation was completed, only
23 then the people who were within the base at Potocari were evacuated. Is
24 that correct?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Testifying before this Tribunal on the 14th of December, you,
2 talking about the sitrep of the 12th of July, said that there were some
3 10.000 refugees within the base and some 20.000 without the base,
4 explaining that in the building of the base itself, there were some 5.000
5 people, and an additional 5.000 within the general compound, a wider area
6 of the base. Do you remember having said that?
7 A. I really do not remember it getting as such, because generally
8 those who were inside the -- the compound were five -- you know, around
9 5.000 or so; and those outside, the ones who were 20. But the figure
10 inside could have been between 5.000 and 7.000, somewhere there. I'm not
11 trying to contradict. I'm just saying the possibility of it being that
12 figure. But there was no inside, the workshop, that is, the main building
13 and outside.
14 Q. Very well. In order for the Chamber to have a clearer picture of
15 the situation, I wanted to show a short footage so that we could see the
16 actual area. It is a footage made by one of the members of the Dutch-Bat.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, you can stop there.
19 Q. Can you make out the facilities we saw in this short footage?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I wanted to
22 say that we saw the footage from 000104 to 00010 --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 001010.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] ... some six seconds in the
1 Q. You can see from here the Dutch base; is that correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. To the right of the entrance, there is a Dutch observation post;
4 is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. In the left-hand corner of the screen, we can see the building
7 which you termed "the white house" in your testimony; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Were you present when the evacuation began, the evacuation of
10 those who were within the compound of Dutch-Bat; that is to say, at the
12 A. I don't -- I don't get the question, Your Honour.
13 Q. I'll repeat. When people began being evacuated from the base,
14 were you present there at the very beginning of the evacuation from the
15 base or had you gone to Srebrenica by that time?
16 A. By the time the evacuation started from inside the base I was, I
17 was around there.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you. That is what I wanted to hear.
19 When the evacuation began from the base, you saw Major Nikolic
20 there; is that correct?
21 A. That's true, Major Nikolic was there.
22 Q. He had a list in his hands with certain names. He said that those
23 people, in his belief, were war criminals, according to the information
24 the Bratunac Brigade had at the time?
25 A. Yeah, he had a list. He had a list that he was checking through.
1 Q. Having in mind the still before us, we can see that the white
2 house is close to the entrance, and the men leaving the base had to cross
3 the road and make their way to the white house.
4 I apologise, I apologise. It should have read "across the road
5 from the entrance of the base."
6 A. Your Honour, I don't get what you mean, because for the people to
7 get inside that white house, the people who were going there are the ones
8 who are being collected from outside.
9 Q. The people, the men who were inside the base were leaving through
10 the gate, by the way of the entrance we can see here. What I wanted to
11 ask you is this: When they crossed the road, they immediately come up to
12 the white house. They are being sent there, those which had been taken?
13 A. Your Honour, I have not stated anywhere that those from inside the
14 base were taken to the white house. There is nowhere that I've stated
15 that, because I did not see them being taken to the white house from
16 inside the compound. The ones I talked about were the ones who were being
17 picked from outside the compound to the white house.
18 Q. Very well. I'll move on to my next question.
19 Were you familiar with the fact that inside the base, a list was
20 made of men who were inside the base? Major Franken provided a sheet of
21 paper on which the list of men who were inside the base were included.
22 Did you know of that?
23 A. What I know -- what I knew about was that Major Nikolic was coming
24 through with a list and checking from amongst the men who were there, who
25 corresponded with the name and whatever he had in his list. That's what I
2 Q. Therefore, you don't know of the Franken list, the list comprising
3 the Muslims who were inside the base itself? You don't know anything
4 about that?
5 A. Your Honour, I do not know.
6 Q. Very well.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the document -- or
8 rather, the footage that we saw is 4D131.
9 Q. Answering Mr. Zivanovic's questions, you mentioned Hasan
10 Nuhanovic, who was your interpreter. At page 11 of your statement to the
11 Prosecution, in both the English and the B/C/S version, you said that
12 Hasan Nuhanovic asked you to sign a document in which it was stated that
13 his family left the base on the 13th of July, having been ordered to do so
14 by the Dutch officers. However, you don't know whether they indeed left
15 and under what circumstances.
16 Do you still stand by what you said, that you were not present
17 when Mr. Nuhanovic's family left the base in Potocari?
18 A. Your Honour, I still stand by that.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to show another footage,
20 please. It is 4D00132. For the record, it begins with 004226 to 004330.
21 [Videotape played]
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] We can stop here.
23 Q. Is this Hasan Nuhanovic?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour, he is.
25 Q. You could see the English subtitles, and Hasan Nuhanovic says that
1 three Dutch-Bat soldiers, together with three UNMOs that he used to be
2 interpreter to, arrived, and he was told that his family had to leave the
3 base area in Potocari. Is what Hasan Nuhanovic said correct?
4 A. Your Honour, it's not correct.
5 Q. Just to be completely clear about this, three UNMOs. I'm not
6 saying it's true, what Hasan Nuhanovic said, but let us try and identify
7 those three people. It is you, Major Dehan, and Major Tetteh. Those were
8 the only three UNMOs who were in Srebrenica at the time; isn't that so?
9 A. Your Honour, what I mean is that, myself, I never witnessed that.
10 I was not there on whatever he is talking about. So as far as I'm
11 concerned, it did not happen. I did not see it. I was not there.
12 Q. Very well. According to your statement at page 11 of both the
13 English and the B/C/S, you said that the entire evacuation was completed
14 on the 13th, in the afternoon; and that, after that, a delegation
15 comprising senior officers inspected the complex, among whom you
16 recognised Major Nikolic and Colonel Acamovic.
17 Colonel Acamovic introduced himself as a special envoy or
18 representative of General Mladic, in charge of the evacuation. Do you
19 stand by that answer?
20 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
21 Q. Another thing: You were there when the evacuation was completed.
22 Was there a large pile, a heap of clothes, discarded clothes, that
23 belonged to the people who had been evacuated from the base?
24 A. Your Honour, there were clothes, and the ones I talked about in my
25 statement are the ones left outside the white house, after those detained
1 in the white house left. That is one that I talked about.
2 Q. Very well. However, I'm asking you about the base area. Was
3 there a heap of clothes there as well?
4 A. Your Honour, inside the base area, I never noticed a heap of
5 clothes or anything, only that there were -- it was littered with a lot of
6 dark papers everywhere. It was littered with a lot of things. But a heap
7 of clothes like witnessed, you know, outside the white house, I did not
8 see it myself.
9 Q. Very well. Referring to Major Nikolic in the Krstic case, on the
10 13th of July, it is page --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please repeat the page
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I apologise to the interpreters.
14 [Interpretation] I am referring to 1874 and 1875, the pages of the
15 transcript in the Krstic trial.
16 Q. It has to do with the events of the 13th of July, and I will read
17 it in English, that is, your answer concerning Major Nikolic: [In English]
18 "He was there almost throughout."
19 [Interpretation] Let me say that you saw him in and outside the
20 Dutch-Bat base; right?
21 A. That's right.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] Your Honours, I believe that I need,
23 literally, five to ten more minutes. There is nothing more. This has
24 speeded up, and, really, I think that all these questions that I have are
25 highly relevant to the indictment and deal with particular charges.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You will have seven minutes, seven minutes, not a
2 second more.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you. Your Honour is very generous.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, Colonel, I would like to ask you
5 specifically about OPs. I came across certain references in sitreps to
6 you reporting on Dutch-Bat OPs. I want to know about Observation Post
7 Papa. That's what your reports reflect, even up to which point in time
8 Papa OP was being used.
9 Up until which point in time did the Dutch-Bat people remain
10 there, and when did they withdraw from their OP to the one near the yellow
12 A. Your Honour, I think that was the last OP to be -- for the
13 Dutch-Bat to evacuate.
14 Q. Fine. Thank you. Of course, you can't pinpoint the date for us,
15 can you?
16 A. I cannot. I cannot remember the actual dates.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 On the 13th and 14th of December, you gave evidence before this
19 Chamber. This is 19254 and 19921. You were shown footage of a person who
20 you said spoke little English and was helping you by doing some
21 interpretation for you.
22 You say that it can be seen in the footage that he was wearing a
23 UN bulletproof vest. You remember that; right?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour, I remember that.
25 Q. About that same person, you testified in the Krstic trial; and on
1 1860 of the transcript, you categorically stated this, and I'll quote in
2 English: [In English] "I am sure it had been stolen from some of the
3 Dutch soldiers."
4 [Interpretation] Do you still maintain the same thing today?
5 A. "May," the word is "may." "May have been stolen from the Dutch-Bat
6 soldiers." It is possible.
7 Q. Very well. That is good enough for my purposes, because I don't
8 have much time left, but there's something I'd like to show you now.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] That is OTP Exhibit number P01936,
10 page 62. That is the e-court reference.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel repeat the exhibit number,
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: By all means. It's P01936, page 62.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Lazarevic.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You see this shot. Is this the same person you talked about?
18 That's all I'm trying to find out. It's the young man on the right with
19 the blue UN bulletproof vest.
20 A. Yeah. This is the man I'm talking about.
21 Q. Were I to tell you that Dutch soldiers never had any light blue
22 bulletproof vests but rather camouflage ones, how would that affect your
23 conclusion that this bulletproof vest may have been stolen from the UN?
24 Would that change your conclusion, sir?
25 A. The point is that from the UN, I think my main concern was not
1 whether it's Dutch-Bat but the UN. This is an UN vest.
2 Q. You're entirely certain of what you are saying; right?
3 A. I don't know whether that means a changing, but what this means is
4 these are UN -- UN vests. The BSA also never used anything blue. It is
5 not in their inventory, but the UN had the blue bulletproof vests.
6 Q. Very well, very well. There's just one more thing that I'd like
7 us to look at.
8 In your testimony on the 14th of December before this Tribunal,
9 page 19290, you were watching a video clip and you noticed a person in the
10 footage: [In English] "This is not a UN soldier, but he has a blue
12 [Interpretation] Do you remember that or would you perhaps like to
13 be shown the relevant portion again?
14 A. Please do, please do.
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. This is
16 P2 -- P02074, and the time reference is 01.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] You'll be seeing that on your
19 screen in a moment, sir.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] We can stop now.
22 Q. [Interpretation] We spoke about this point in time, and you talked
23 about this person, and you said that he was wearing a blue helmet but that
24 this was no UN soldier. Do you now remember that, sir?
25 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do remember.
1 Q. Do you stand by that statement that you made; right?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Were I to tell you that the person wearing the blue helmet was
4 Vincentus Egbert and that he identified himself as a member of Dutch-Bat
5 in this footage, would that perhaps do anything to change your opinion?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: I don't object to the question itself, other than
8 that's not the testimony. It was another individual who identified
9 himself, Eelco Koster, not Mr. --
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [In English] I apologise, my mistake. My colleague
11 is right. My colleague is 100 per cent right.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. It's being put to you that actually
13 that individual came here and identified himself as being a member of
14 Dutch-Bat. What do you have to say to that?
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, now, the -- the point is that I don't
16 remember whether it is this person. I don't know whether we can see the
17 whole clip or whether there's the possibility of seeing someone else in a
18 blue -- a blue helmet who is not a Dutch soldier, because I believe there
19 was and I saw one like that.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. By all means, sir, but please accept what I'm telling you. I've
22 seen the footage many times. We could, of course, do that. With the
23 exception of this gentleman and yourself, nobody else appears to be
24 wearing a blue helmet in this footage. However, I'll withdraw my
1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's better. Let's proceed.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just a couple of questions left. During your evidence before this
4 Tribunal, you spoke a great deal about the white house. Let me clarify a
5 point in relation to that.
6 You said you went to this white house. You talked about what
7 happened there, something to do with General Mladic outside the white
8 house. You talked about the distribution of beer, fruit juice, sweets,
9 and such, at the white house. While you were there, did you actually
10 count the people who were brought to the white house?
11 A. Your Honour, the question you're asking, I really was not there
12 counting the people who were going in; and at that particular moment, we
13 were seeing those who were inside the house, not those who were coming in.
14 So the issue of counting, I think, may not arise at this moment, because I
15 was not counting those who were going in.
16 Q. When you say "we," are you talking about yourself, you as an
17 individual, or are you talking about other UNMOs as well?
18 A. Here, I mean I'm talking about UNMOs. And if I can be specific,
19 then I can talk about myself, in that when we went there with the
20 general -- when I went there with General Ratko Mladic, myself, I never
21 counted the people who were going in. And at that particular moment, as
22 I've just said, there was no issue of people going in, because when we
23 went there to see them, they were already inside the house.
24 Q. Just another question. That is practically my second-to-last
1 Did you perhaps count the people who were taken from the white
2 house to the buses?
3 A. No, Your Honour, I did not count.
4 Q. You see, there has been evidence before this Tribunal, more
5 specifically one of the Dutch-Bat officers testified, Major Franken to be
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the benefit of my learned
8 friends, I will provide a transcript reference, 4297 and 4298.
9 Q. Major Franken spoke about this, and he said that he was the one
10 who put an UNMO in charge of counting the people who were brought to the
11 white house, as well as those who were leaving the white house to be taken
12 to the buses.
13 Then on 2675, he goes on to say this: "The numbers of those
14 counted tallied. In other words, the same number of people was brought to
15 the white house as those that were taken out."
16 Is that your experience, namely, that one of the UNMOs was
17 monitoring the process whereby people were being brought to the white
18 house and taken out of the white house? This seems to be the information
19 that was forwarded to Dutch-Bat.
20 A. Your Honour, for one, Major Franken could not order the military
21 observers to do anything. That is a fact. We were the same rank. He
22 could not order us to do anything. Secondly, we were of different
23 commands. We were military observers. He was from Dutch-Bat. So the
24 issue of ordering any observer, that's not right.
25 Secondly, the -- the counting of the men that were going into the
1 white house, as far as I'm concerned, I don't think he did that. I mean,
2 we did that, as observers. And even when they were going out, I don't
3 remember -- okay. If I talk about myself, I don't remember, myself,
4 counting those people. But I was there when they were going to the
5 buses. I was personally there, but we were not counting the people.
6 I do not remember, myself, giving out a figure of this number of
7 men who left -- I mean, who, as we were counting them, were going into the
8 buses. I don't remember doing that. It's only that, if I may add -- if
9 I'm allowed to add, it's only that we were counting the busloads when they
10 were leaving. We were counting the busloads, and we could estimate the
11 number of people going out, because for the busloads, we knew capacity of
12 the buses.
13 Q. Very well. But this is your personal experience. Are you certain
14 about your colleagues? Did one of them perhaps do just that, unbeknownst
15 to you?
16 A. Your Honour, I don't believe anyone, any other observer counted
17 the people, one, two, three, whatever, as they boarded the buses or even
18 as they were going into the white house. That, I don't believe. But we
19 counted the busloads.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Colonel.
21 I have no further questions.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.
23 Madame Fauveau.
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
1 Q. My name is Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic, and I represent General
3 Is it right that before getting on the territory of the former
4 Yugoslavia, you were working in the Kenya Air Force?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. As an officer, as an Air Force officer, did you not have an
7 experience in calculating trajectory and craters?
8 A. As a trained military officer, that was part of our training, and
9 we were ongoing in that training and we knew how to do it.
10 Q. Yes, but you told us that you joined the Kenyan Air Force in 1977.
11 From that moment on, therefore, you were no longer working with these
12 matters on those things?
13 A. After joining in 1977, as a soldier, I trained and became a
14 fully-trained soldier. In 1985, I went back for cadets officers' course,
15 a one-year cadets officers' course, which enriched me with all these
16 capabilities. That included even battle camps and everything else that
17 has something to do with war. All the major support weapons, everything,
18 you name it, I learned about them.
19 In 1987, I went to the United States of America, where I trained
20 on all major weapons, including even the ones which were not being used in
21 Srebrenica or in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including even the aircrafts
22 themselves, the kind of weapons they carried, and even the artillery, as
23 part of the supply chain.
24 And immediately after that, in 1988, I did the Grade 3 staff
25 course. This is staff and command course. That included everything to do
1 with weaponry, the fighting in battle areas, and also the -- all the
2 weapon systems that I needed in any weapon theatre, including the ones we
3 have in the military and the ones we do not have, because they are also
5 Then in 1988, I went to India, where I trained on similar issues,
6 but now at a slightly advanced level.
7 So when I say that I am familiar with these kind of weapons, I may
8 not be 100 per cent, and also my employment may not be in the infantry or
9 any specific arm, but that does not mean I do not have a general knowledge
10 of this kind of weaponry.
11 Q. Very well. But you do confirm to us that for approximately 20
12 years, or 18 to be more precise, you worked as an Air Force officer?
13 A. Your Honour, I think I've just explained that in plain terms; and
14 though the normal employment will be on the specific job that you do, that
15 does not mean that you do not know the other issues.
16 Q. Sir, I guess you answered my question. When you would go out to
17 analyse craters, what was the role of the interpreters during this
19 A. We were not carrying interpreters to help us in analysing. We
20 were carrying interpreters to do their role as interpreters.
21 Q. When you were analysing craters, did you take pictures of the
23 A. Your Honour, I think -- I think we were doing -- we had cameras, I
24 think. I can't remember very well, but I think we had cameras that we
25 used to take the photos. Yeah, I think we had. We were taking them.
1 Q. Would you be able to tell me where these pictures are right now or
2 what happened to those pictures when you left the enclave?
3 A. Your Honour, some of the photos we would attach to the sitreps
4 when we were sending them over, or sent them as an attachment; and where
5 they are, where the copies are, I really cannot tell now.
6 Q. When you were analysing craters, would you include in your daily
7 report the analysis, the results of the analysis, or were you sending a
8 specific report on the crater analysis that day?
9 A. At times, Your Honour, we would include both the results and also
10 the measurements that we took, but what was required most was the -- the
11 analysis itself, what did we find.
12 Q. I would like to show you now very quickly 5D502.
13 Before this document is posted on the screen, this is a
14 demilitarisation agreement that my colleague showed you yesterday.
15 What I would like to know is the following: Before arriving to
16 Srebrenica or when you were in Srebrenica, were you made aware of this
17 agreement? Did you ever see it while you were there?
18 A. Your Honour, I was aware of the demilitarised areas in the whole
19 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Concerning the document itself, I don't
20 remember seeing it or reading it, myself, but that does not mean that it
21 was not there. I'm not sure whether it was there or not, but I don't
22 remember, you know, going through it myself.
23 Q. At any rate, this agreement was not something that was extremely
24 important to you. You do not have a memory of knowing or finding out what
25 these clauses were at the time?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, there's a frequency interference or
2 something. The interpreters have some problems.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I am hearing that, too. I don't know what's
4 the cause of it, where it's emanating from, but there is definitely an
5 interference. I can't hear it now, I mean, so let's proceed; and then if
6 it becomes a problem, we'll try and sort it out.
7 Madame Fauveau.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, should I repeat my
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the question is there.
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I can't see it. I don't have it here.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Line 17 on page 57: "At any rate, this agreement
13 was not something that was extremely important to you. You do not have a
14 memory of knowing or finding out what these clauses were at the time?"
15 This is what is being put to you.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, the fact that I do not see these, I did not
17 read, I did not personally read these -- this agreement, does not mean
18 that it was not important. But at least most of the information contained
19 herein, I was aware, and we had been briefed on the issues that, you know,
20 are being referred to here.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
22 Q. A lot of talk was held on the disarmament of Srebrenica, which
23 didn't mean that you didn't know that weapons were coming into
24 Srebrenica. But what I would like to know is whether you knew that the
25 Serbs suspected that weapons were carried to Srebrenica, because Serbs
1 were complaining about the arrival of weapons to Srebrenica, did they not?
2 A. Your Honour, the question is a bit -- I don't -- I don't really
3 get it, but the weapons that you are talking about --
4 Q. Sir, the question is rather complicated. I will try to simplify
5 it. You are right.
6 Is it right to say that Serbs complained about the arrival and the
7 transportation of weapons into Srebrenica?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Your Honour, we're really
9 having problems with this interference. Could you please call a
10 technician, maybe?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, by all means. You could call a technician,
13 I am not hearing it now, but of course it doesn't mean that you
14 don't have the interference over there. We are calling a technician.
15 Okay. Thank you.
16 Can you answer the question, Colonel?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
18 I really do not remember much concerning -- concerning the
19 complaints by the BSA on weapons going into -- into Srebrenica. I think
20 maybe - I'm not very sure - but maybe once, but sincerely I cannot
21 remember very well -- very well of the complaints of weapons going into
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This complaint regarded the arrival of weapons via helicopters; is
25 that right?
1 A. There was ones complaining about a helicopter going into the
2 enclave. That was raised by the BSA. That I can remember, and they
3 talked about them bringing it down. And after that, I remember, and it's
4 in my statement somewhere, that although the BiH denied that, I saw Ramiz,
5 you know, limping, and maybe that is -- that was the cause of the --
6 his -- his problems on the left -- I think left or right leg, I can't
7 remember which one. But, yeah, there was a complaint about a helicopter
8 going in there.
9 Q. But the fact that you saw Ramiz Becirovic injured contributed to
10 veracity of the Serbian complaint. It corroborated that complaint, didn't
12 A. It did, Your Honour.
13 Q. Did you try to get more information from the municipality
14 authorities or military authorities after seeing that Ramiz Becirovic was
16 A. Yes, we did. As observers, we asked them actually the cause of
17 his limping. In fact, we asked them if actually the helicopter was
18 brought down, and they denied. They said there was nothing like that.
19 But after we saw that Ramiz was limping, we asked them what was
20 the cause, and they said. Even though at time that he was hospitalised,
21 we were told; and when he came out, that is the time we discovered he was
22 limping. When asked them, they said it's a normal injury, and that's what
23 they told us. We could not be able to go further into it because we
24 didn't know now who else to ask.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be shown
1 Exhibit 5D214, please.
2 Q. This is an official report from the 28th Division, the Security
3 Department. It's a report written on the 22nd of May, 1995, and you can
4 see, at -- towards the middle of the page, that this is an official report
5 drafted on the 17th of May, 1995, with regard to a helicopter that was hit
6 during the night of 6th to 7th May, 1995.
7 If I understand correctly, you never saw these reports before. Is
8 that right?
9 A. It's true, I didn't. I never saw this report at all.
10 Q. If you look at the top part of the page, you can see that it
11 says "28th Division Command, Security Department." Do you know where this
12 Security Department of the 28th Division was situated physically?
13 A. Your Honour, these names, I don't know where it was -- where it
14 was located. I don't know the actual location. All I know is that 28th
15 Division, which was later changed to 8-OG, they had a command net at our
16 building; that is, PTT.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, this interference is really
18 bothering the interpreters. I'm terribly sorry.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: What happened with the technicians?
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: They are already in there. Yes. I can understand
22 the interpreters getting annoyed with this, because it's annoying me as
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 [Technical Difficulties]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are suggesting to take the break now, 25 minutes
2 now, so that in the meantime they try and fix this nuisance. Okay.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madame Fauveau.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
7 Q. After seeing Ramiz Becirovic injured, did you tell you superiors
8 that a possibility existed that weapons had been brought to the enclave?
9 Did you make a report on that?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
11 MR. JOSSE: I think the problem is the witness can't hear anything
12 at all. I had to reset my set presumably because of the problem we had
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Same case here, but it was easy to realise.
15 Can you repeat your question, please.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.
17 Q. Can you tell us, sir, after you saw that Ramiz Becirovic was
18 wounded, did you send a report to your superiors regarding a possibility
19 that weapons be brought into the enclave?
20 A. Your Honour, we sent a report concerning the possibility that that
21 helicopter that crashed could have carried Becirovic, but I don't remember
22 indicating anything to do with -- with the weapons.
23 Q. You declared that your offices were in the post office building.
24 You talked about the centre of communications, and earlier you told us
25 that the Security Department was also in the same building. Did you tell
1 your superiors that you were in the same building as the Army of Bosnia
2 and Herzegovina?
3 A. Your Honour, it was known, it was known. We had found the
4 building there, the observers there, housed there, and the communication
5 was still there. So it was all known from the beginning that the
6 communication was there in the same building with the observers.
7 Q. Sir, I understand what you're telling us, but I would like to know
8 if you or one of your colleagues, while you were there, did you ever
9 inform your superiors about that?
10 A. Yeah, there is a report somewhere concerning that. The same
11 building that we were in is the one that was holding the communication
12 equipments of the BSA -- of the BiH. There is a report on that.
13 Q. Neither you, neither your superiors, thought that you should be in
14 a building without any military presence of one of the parties which took
15 part in the conflict?
16 A. Well, the hiring of buildings where observers are housed, that is
17 where the officers are. As far as I'm concerned, I was not involved in
18 it; so me, I just went where the observers were staying.
19 Q. You also told us that you did not know if there were any brigades
20 in the enclave, the brigade that belonged to the 28th Division. If you
21 did not know that the brigades were there, you could not know where your
22 headquarters were, could you -- where their headquarters were situated?
23 A. Really, I don't think you want me to go back into saying the way
24 the organisation was or where the -- because I already talked about the
25 28th Division and the 8-OG. So I know about them, and I really don't know
1 what you want me to say concerning this.
2 Q. Since you don't know where the militaries or the soldiers in the
3 enclave were situated, how can you know that the eventual Serb targets
4 were civilian and not military?
5 A. Your Honour, this is something that I've already said before, and
6 that is, the targeting of the enclave, whether there was any military
7 objective or not, the way the shelling was done was definitely aimed at
8 the residents of that place. The residents, as far as I was concerned,
9 were mainly civilians. Most of them were civilians, even if there was
10 some armed brigades.
11 Definitely, the major was civilians in that enclave, and so my --
12 my conscience is very clear that the target was there, not necessarily
13 just the communication building. The whole enclave was being shelled, and
14 the whole enclave did not have communications centres. It did not have
15 the military people distributed in each and every corner of the enclave.
16 Q. Do you know if Dutch-Bat members thought that the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina were shooting on their own people, that they suspected
18 this on at least one occasion?
19 A. Your Honour, unless you tell me the occasion, because, you know,
20 Dutch-Bat were doing their own things other than where--
21 JUDGE AGIUS: But, Colonel, this is something which you either
22 heard about or you didn't. If you didn't, there's no point in telling you
23 when or which occasion it was. Did you ever hear of such a case while you
24 were there?
25 THE WITNESS: The only time that there was suspected to be -- you
1 know, we suspected that maybe something like that happened was when there
2 was an infiltration by the BSA into the enclave. We said maybe also on
3 the other side, the BiH could have done it on their own people, you know,
4 themselves. I think that is the only occasion that -- I don't remember
5 hearing about any other occasion.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
7 Yes, Madame Fauveau.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
9 Q. It was precisely what I was talking about.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be shown
11 Exhibit 5D541, please.
12 This is a Dutch-Bat report dated June 24, 1995, and I would like
13 the next page to be shown, the following page. I'm mainly interested in
14 the bottom part of the page.
15 Q. You can see the third paragraph from the bottom of the page, and
16 we can read the following: [In English] "We urge you to be very careful
17 about who was responsible for this incident. There is a possibility BiH
18 made up this attack to influence our opinion about the situation in the
19 enclave and to influence public opinion."
20 [Interpretation] So what I would like to know is if the UNMOs or
21 yourself sent a similar report regarding this incident.
22 A. Your Honour, our report indicated that there was a BSA
24 Q. You told us yesterday, on page 47 of the transcript, that you had
25 the list of weapons that Serbs had. Who had given you that list?
1 A. Your Honour, I don't remember saying that we had a list of weapons
2 that the Serbs had. All we had was what we got there as having been used
3 by -- by the Serbs, not necessarily a list of the weapons that the Serbs
4 had, because we never saw them.
5 Q. I will read what you stated on the transcript yesterday. On page
6 47 of the transcript of yesterday, you said, I quote -- or at least it was
7 written as such: [In English] "We had a list of weapons that they had:
8 Artillery shells, missiles, rocket-launchers, and all that."
9 [Interpretation] I will not spend too much time on this question,
10 but are you telling us today that it was not true, that you never had such
11 a list?
12 A. Your Honour, the list here indicates really what they used, not
13 necessarily what they had. What was used is what we found there. And
14 after analysing everything that was -- that was there, we came up with a
15 list of what was used during the attack, and this is what we provided.
16 Q. Can you tell us where this list of used weapons or weapons that
17 were used at the time is?
18 A. The list is there. I think it is in -- in one of the reports, in
19 the document that you already have. It is there in one of the sitreps.
20 Q. Yesterday, on page 21, you told us that you did not know if Muslim
21 authorities of Srebrenica were stopping people from leaving the enclave.
22 Would you be surprised to find out that, in fact, the authorities of
23 Srebrenica were stopping people from leaving?
24 A. Your Honour, I wouldn't be surprised. In desperation, anyone can
25 do anything.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document
2 5D244, please. It's an order, once again, from the Command of the 28th
3 Division of the 27th of May, 1995.
4 Q. In the first paragraph, you can see that the command of all the
5 units of the 28th Division should take all the measures to prevent army
6 members and civilians from leaving the enclave.
7 A. Yes, I can read that.
8 Q. Tell us, please, your contacts in Srebrenica, the civilian
9 authorities or military authorities, did they ever tell you that they had
10 problems with people leaving the enclave?
11 A. No, Your Honour.
12 Q. Look at paragraph 3. At the beginning of the paragraph, the
13 command of the Division ordered to its units to do -- go about their tasks
14 of combat. It is the 280th, 83rd, and 285th Light Brigade. Can you
15 confirm that you never heard about these brigades?
16 A. No, Your Honour, I never heard of them.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 2 of
18 the document.
19 Q. You can see on this document it's been drafted by Ramiz Becirovic,
20 a person which you knew. Ramiz Becirovic was one of your contact points,
21 with certain information coming from him?
22 A. [Microphone not activated]
23 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour, I can see that.
25 Q. My question was: Is it true that some information which you
1 obtained came from Ramiz Becirovic?
2 A. I think I'm lost. What information, because I didn't see that.
3 What information could you be referring to, please?
4 Q. You said that you were three observers and that you had to obtain
5 information from somebody in order to be able to check this information.
6 Is it true that some information, in particular on the Serbian attacks,
7 were given by Ramiz Becirovic?
8 A. It's true, some of the military issues, you know, issues to do
9 with the enclave. From the beginning, I said we were discussing with
10 Ramiz Becirovic and also with the mayor of the Opstina. So we were in
11 constant touch with them.
12 Q. Indeed, both the mayor and Ramiz Becirovic gave you information,
13 the information which suited them?
14 A. Your Honour, that I may not -- I may not know. The information we
15 were getting is the information they give us. So whether it's the one
16 that suited them or not, I really cannot -- cannot tell.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was in another sense. I think you to
18 understand the question put to you as being the following: Would you
19 accept that in giving you a series of information, Ramiz Becirovic and
20 others may have been taking you down the garden path, feeding you false
21 information on purpose? Would you accept that, that that could have been
22 the case?
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I really won't take it that way,
24 because there were many issues that we were discussing concerning the
25 enclave that really you could see that was true, and it's not everything
1 that we were saying that was not correct or that he was telling us or that
2 interested -- was to their interests.
3 But at the same time, I think it's worth remembering that when we
4 have two warring factions, definitely you get from one side what they want
5 you to know and also what they want you to convey to the other side.
6 Likewise, when we go to the other side, the BSA side, they were telling us
7 what they know from their side and what they want us to convey to the BiH.
8 So these are issues that by now maybe, Your Honour, you should
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You spoke of humanitarian aid, and you said that a part of the
12 humanitarian aid brought by UNHCR was sold on the market. Do you know how
13 it was possible that the humanitarian aid was sold on the market, please?
14 A. Your Honour, let me start by correcting that. It's not that
15 humanitarian aid brought by UNHCR was sold on the market. It is that part
16 of it was being sold on the market, because the interpretation here may
17 mean that everything that was brought in by the UNHCR was being sold at
18 the market. But the locals sometimes could save a bit of it. You said
19 you see the other part being sold in the market. That was evident. We
20 could see part of it being sold in the market, but not everything.
21 Q. Who was monitoring the distribution of humanitarian aid inside the
23 A. Your Honour, when there was a distribution of -- of this
24 humanitarian aid, we used to send one observer to go there and see what is
1 Q. Did you inform the UNHCR that part of the humanitarian aid was
2 later on the market, was to be seen on the market?
3 A. They were also aware. We used to see it, and they were also aware
4 about it.
5 Q. And did you -- you did say, sir, a part, a small part, you said,
6 was taken by the BH Army. Did you inform UNHCR of the fact that the BH
7 Army took part of the humanitarian aid?
8 A. There was no -- there was nothing like that they were taking this
9 apart in proportion, maybe a certain percentage. But at least even the
10 UNHCR knew about the soldiers, that is, the BiH also being given a bit of
11 the proportion, but not in percentage form that it is official, they've
12 got to get this percentage of what is distributed.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown document
14 5D65. And just before that, it's a report from the Dutch Institute, NIOD.
15 This is just an excerpt of this report.
16 Could you please show page 3 of the document, the last paragraph.
17 Q. Can you see the last paragraph? You can read the first two
18 sentences: [In English] "In the meantime, the ABiH in Srebrenica appeared
19 to be taking good care of itself. In May, the ABiH separated
20 approximately 40 tons of goods from UNHCR."
21 A. Yes, I -- .
22 Q. [Interpretation] Those 40 tons, it's a considerable quantity,
23 isn't it?
24 A. It is, yes. It's quite a considerable quantity, but we were not
25 aware of this.
1 Q. But you -- you knew that the Dutch-Bat was searching the convoys
2 of UNHCR before they entered the enclave?
3 A. No, I'm not aware that Dutch-Bat was searching the convoy.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would like you to see document
5 5D545, copy books, notebooks which were transmitted to the Prosecution and
6 which we obtained.
7 No, it's not that exhibit or this document. It is the right
8 number in the transcript.
9 Could we see page 12 of the document.
10 Excuse me. Could I see the ERN number of this page. I need to
11 see ERN number 3828, page 12.
12 Apparently, it's a mistake. It should be page 4, apparently. Yes,
13 that's the right page. Excuse me.
14 Q. You see here you were in a meeting with several people, and
15 towards the lower part of the page, you can see: [In English] "Search by
16 Dutch-Bat on UNHCR convoys should continue."
17 [Interpretation] Do you remember something of that? Does it ring
18 a bell?
19 A. I can't see where you -- where you're reading.
20 Q. While you were looking, you see at a given moment it is the Chief
21 of Staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina who's speaking, "COS BiH," and after that
22 there is a hyphen, and there I repeat what I said because it was not in
23 the transcript: [In English] "Search by Dutch-Bat..." [Microphone not
25 "Search by Dutch-Bat on UNHCR convoys continue."
1 A. Yes, I can -- [Microphone not activated]
2 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, do you -- does it help you to remember
3 this topic?
4 A. Your Honour, what this means, and if you read the whole paragraph
5 in totality, is that this is the Chief of Staff saying it, that -- about
6 the information he had gotten concerning the convoy and that the BSA would
7 get a token, because that is what he's saying he had, and that the search
8 by Dutch-Bat on the UNHCR convoys should continue.
9 That does not necessarily mean that it was actually happening or
10 that I knew about it. I'm writing about what the Chief of Staff was
11 saying, if you can read that paragraph in totality.
12 Q. I understand that maybe you were not aware of that before this
13 meeting. But if the representative of the BH Army said that the search
14 should continue, that means they were in progress, and they existed?
15 A. Your Honour, one may interpret it that way. But as far as I was
16 concerned, there was no such a -- there was no such thing being done by
17 UN -- by Dutch-Bat on UNHCR convoys. I don't -- I don't remember knowing
18 something like that. I don't.
19 Q. Do you know that Medicins Sans Frontieres was present, the
20 organisation Medicins Sans Frontieres were present in Srebrenica; are you
21 aware of that?
22 A. [Microphone not activated]
23 Q. And when you arrived at Srebrenica in April 1995, you heard that
24 there were problems between the municipal authorities and that
1 A. Your Honour, I did. There were problems between them.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown an
3 exhibit, 1D470, which we've already shown.
4 Q. This is a debriefing with your colleague when you arrived in
5 Zagreb on the 24th of July, 1995, and yesterday you told us that you
6 remembered this briefing or debriefing.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown paragraph
9 Q. You said yesterday that you had two notebooks. One was destroyed,
10 you destroyed it, and the other one, the one we have seen now, you had it
11 when you arrived in Zagreb, didn't you?
12 A. Yes, I did, I had that.
13 Q. Why -- do you have an explanation why this -- for these briefing
14 notes, at the middle of paragraph two: [In English]" The Kenyan officer
15 seemed to have no written record"?
16 A. That is what is written there, that I seem to not have written
17 records, and it's true. When we were being debriefed, I did not have it.
18 That does not mean I did not have it in my -- in my dwelling area in
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could page 5 be shown now, please,
21 page 5 of this document, please.
22 Q. Can you see paragraph 23? It's about Sunday and Monday, 9/10
23 July; and in paragraph 24, you can read: [In English] "The compound in
24 Potocari was not fired on at all; although, it could easily have been."
25 [Interpretation] Is this what you have said to your colleagues in
1 Zagreb on the 24th of July, 1995? Is that what you told them? The
2 question was: Did you and your colleagues, have you said that in Zagreb
3 on the 24th of July?
4 A. Your Honour, I don't think this is correct. I don't think we're
5 the ones who said it. I don't know who this report is coming from,
6 because the compound in Potocari was fired at several times. We were
7 reporting that in our sitreps, and we even indicated that even the day we
8 were going in, there was -- there was shelling in the Potocari compound.
9 Q. If you look at paragraph 25, it is a question of Tuesday,
10 therefore, on the 11th of July; and then on the second sentence: [In
11 English] "However, the factory at Potocari was already full and they had
12 to stop 100 metres outside the compound. This was not seen as a problem
13 because it was already noted that the BSA were not firing on the area."
14 [Interpretation] The only question I'm interested in is that
15 effectively, at a given moment on the 11th of July, the refugees could not
16 enter the compound anymore; is that true?
17 A. It is true they could not enter. It was already full.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could now page 3 be shown, page 3 of
19 this document.
20 Q. We can see paragraph 13, and this paragraph has been noted: [In
21 English] "There were allegedly no stores of food and the civilian
22 population was getting very unruly because of this. In fact, there were
23 many smuggling routes that brought in food every day. OPK reported 40-50
24 horses bringing in food each day from Zepa. Occasionally, the BSA
25 ambushed the trail, but it still went on.
1 "There was some payment going on at a high level between the BSA
2 and the BiH to allow this transport. UNMOs were not allowed to see inside
3 the Opstina storage area to check food stocks."
4 [Interpretation] What I'm interested in is the last sentence of
5 this paragraph. Yesterday, you told us that you could go and see the
6 warehouse where the food stuffs were. Perhaps you made a mistake. Is it
8 Is it true that you couldn't go and see the contents of the
9 warehouse, or at least not always?
10 A. Your Honour, at least we could go there and count the food that
11 was inside there. We were able to do that. If maybe there's a day that
12 we could not or one of us was not able to go there, maybe that is an
13 exception, but at least most of the time we were allowed to go there and
14 see what was inside.
15 Q. So what you say now is that indeed there were exceptions and that
16 sometimes you were not allowed to enter and see. You leave the
17 possibility that there were situations where you couldn't go in and see?
18 A. Your Honour, the possibility I leave is that maybe an observer,
19 once or twice or whatever number, maybe was not allowed; but as far as I
20 know, whenever we wanted to go in there to see what is inside, we were
21 able to, to do that.
22 Q. You have no explanation why this sentence is in the debriefing
23 report in Zagreb on the 24th of July, three days only after you left the
24 enclave of Srebrenica?
25 A. Your Honour, I said this could have been maybe one instant, but
1 the number of times we wanted to go there --
2 Q. All right. Now -- all right, now, this paragraph also speaks of
3 the food which was coming from Zepa. You knew that food stuffs were
4 coming from Zepa?
5 A. Yes, Your Honour, we -- I knew that.
6 Q. You also knew that Zepa was an enclave?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Have you ever asked the municipality authorities how it happened
9 that Zepa had enough food to feed also the people in Srebrenica?
10 A. I never asked, Your Honour.
11 Q. On the 13th of December last, you mentioned the British who were
12 in the enclave, and you said that they could go anywhere, and they had a
13 vehicle, a Land Rover in particular. Do you know who was giving,
14 furnishing the petrol to these British personnel so that they could use
15 their vehicle?
16 A. I really do not know, but it could have been coming from either
17 UNHCR or Dutch-Bat. That, I'm not aware. I cannot recall.
18 Q. Do you know who sent these British people inside the enclave?
19 A. I don't know who sent them in the enclave.
20 Q. And you don't know to whom they reported, either?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. You said that on the 9th of July, when you left Srebrenica and
23 went to Potocari, you had a problem, which was to go back to Srebrenica,
24 and you sent your interpreter there to give you some information, to
25 report, to tell you what was going on at Srebrenica.
1 If I understood what you said on the 13th of December, page 19218,
2 it was too dangerous for you - I'm talking about the UNMOs, not you
3 personally - to go back to Srebrenica, to return. Is that a fact?
4 A. That is a fact.
5 Q. Your interpreter at the time was only 20 years old, Emir
6 Suljagic. Your interpreter at the time, he was just 20 years old or so?
7 A. He had just celebrated his 20 -- 20 years, that's true.
8 Q. Didn't you feel that it was also dangerous for your interpreter to
9 return to Srebrenica?
10 A. I think that is indicated in my report very clearly, that we found
11 us going back to Srebrenica, in our white vehicle, soft-skinned vehicle,
12 and our blue helmets. I think it's very clear in my report that it could
13 have made us a collective target. We could easily have been seen.
14 So after we discussed together, that is, we observers and the
15 interpreter, we agreed he can go there using that route through the river
16 all the way up, because through that he could not be -- he could not be
17 seen. But with us, we couldn't go back to Srebrenica.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would now like to see P501.
19 Q. It's your own report, your report of the 10th of July. What I'm
20 interested in is the second part of this report, where there's this
21 question of the shells of 150 [as interpreted] millimetres.
22 In this report, we read that it was probably shells of 155
24 Q. Can you tell us whether the word "probably" was the word used by
25 your interpreter when he told you what was going on, or was it a word used
1 by the drafter of the report? Was it added by the person who drafted the
2 report, this "probably"?
3 A. This is our report, and the word "probably" means we were not sure
4 whether it is the 155-millimetre shells or not.
5 Q. I understand very well, but was it the interpreter who was on the
6 spot who wasn't sure or was it you who weren't sure of what the
7 interpreter was telling you?
8 A. It is we who are not sure of what he was telling us. We could not
9 confirm that is exactly 155 or any other calibre.
10 Q. In this report, you say nowhere that this information was given by
11 interpreter. Anybody reading this report could think it was one of the
12 UNMOs who had seen that?
13 A. Yeah, it is true, one can interpret that.
14 Q. In fact, you should have said that this information was not
15 confirmed by the UNMOs?
16 A. Agreed.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
18 P1533. This is an aerial photograph of Potocari.
19 Would it be possible to zoom on the road.
20 Q. First of all, I would like to ask you: On the 12th of July in
21 Potocari, there were a lot of people, wasn't there?
22 A. Yeah, there were. There were a lot of people.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
1 Q. And on this photograph, you can see people just in the middle of
2 the road going towards a bus. You don't see people anywhere else. Does
3 this photo correspond to what you saw in Potocari on the 12th of July,
5 A. Yeah, it does. I think it does.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madame Fauveau, you've already taken an hour and ten
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could I ask for an extra five
9 minutes, please?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 Q. How is it that here you can't see any people?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Objection to the way the question is phrased,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 Madame Fauveau.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Very well. I will go to another
19 topic, and it will be my last question, if I could put my last question.
20 Could the witness be shown Exhibit P515, please.
21 Q. This is your report, sir, dated 13th of July, 1995.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown paragraph
23 6. It's at the bottom of the page.
24 Q. It talks about the fact that 50 babies were born.
25 Would you agree, sir, that there must be a mistake there and that,
1 in fact, they probably meant five babies and not 50 babies?
2 A. It is, it is possible. I can't remember whether there were five
3 or 50. I can't remember.
4 Q. I will not spend too much time on this, but I would like to remind
5 you that in your personal journal, you noted that in 1993 a hundred babies
6 were born; and 1994 and 1995, 1.040 babies were born, which on an average
7 brings us to two to three babies a day. So to my mind, "five babies"
8 seems to be a plausible number. Do you agree with me?
9 A. Your Honour, as I say, right now I cannot remember whether it was
10 five or 50, so it's a possibility.
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madame Fauveau.
14 Mr. Josse.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:
16 Q. My name is David Josse, and I represent General Gvero.
17 You have described, Colonel Kingori, being very scared as you left
18 Srebrenica on the 9th of July. That's right, isn't it?
19 A. That's right, Your Honour.
20 Q. And you described, with what might be described as a disarming
21 frankness, being very, very scared on the journey to Potocari that day?
22 A. I agree, Your Honour.
23 Q. And when you arrived in Potocari, you spent a fair amount of your
24 time there in a bunker; correct?
25 A. That's not correct, Your Honour. Immediately, we entered
1 Potocari, we established a communication -- our communication net, and it
2 is well documented. We have written that. We never entered the bunker
3 immediately we went there. So it's all documented that we started
4 establishing a communication link with our headquarters.
5 Q. I didn't say you spent -- went there immediately. I said you
6 spent a fair amount of your time inside the bunker. Would you agree with
8 A. No, that is not correct.
9 Q. Who else was with you in this bunker?
10 A. Which bunker are you talking about? In Potocari?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes. Whenever there was firing, we would go into a bunker, and I
13 was not alone. There was many of us.
14 Q. Who?
15 A. That is people from Dutch-Bat and ourselves as UN observers.
16 Q. You've been asked a great deal about your time in the enclave
17 prior to the commencement of hostilities and whether you were aware of any
18 aggression inside the enclave from Muslims or any general military
19 activity on the part of the Muslims; and for the most part, you weren't
20 aware of either aggression or military activity. Is that a fair summary
21 of what you've been saying over the last few days?
22 A. That is true, we were not aware of the Muslim military activity.
23 We were not aware of that.
24 Q. And, in particular, you've been at pains to point out that you
25 were not aware of any complaint by the VRS of Muslim military activity?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Now, the journal or the diary that Ms. Fauveau, the counsel who's
3 just been cross-examining you, have taken to you to, you brought to the
4 Hague with you on Tuesday; correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Did you have a read of it prior to giving evidence in December?
7 A. No, I had not gone through it.
8 Q. Did you read it on your way to The Hague this week?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. It, on a number of occasions, does it not, makes mention of
11 meetings you attended prior to the outbreak of hostilities, in other
12 words, in particular May and in particular June of 1995, where Serbs made
13 clear that they were very unhappy about military activity by Muslims?
14 A. Yeah, there was some mention about that.
15 Q. Why haven't you previously mentioned it, Mr. Kingori, when you've
16 been asked repeatedly on the topic?
17 A. Your Honour, I remember mentioning that; and especially when I
18 said that when - if you want me to go back to it - when the BSA were
19 complaining mainly about the BiH activities, whenever a deal went sour,
20 that is what we had and it's documented. Whenever there was a
21 disagreement between these two groups when they inhabited the -- or the
22 Muslims were going to Tuzla or any other place to get food and come back,
23 whenever there was a disagreement, that is the only time that the BSA
24 could come and complain about incursions or even presence or passage of
25 the BSA -- the BiH through the Serb-held territory.
1 Q. So you're saying that you understood this to be some sort of
2 elaborate ploy on the part of the Serb negotiators, where they were making
3 this up in order to in some way subvert these negotiations; is that your
5 A. Your Honour, I won't summarise it that way. They had the reasons
6 to say whatever they wanted to say, and so we would not just dismiss it as
7 such. But we had to weigh the situation as it was at that particular
8 moment, given the fact that we were getting information from all sides and
9 from all the groups concerned.
10 Q. "We" in this context is who, Colonel? You, the UNMOs, or the UNMOs
11 and Dutch-Bat?
12 A. With the UNMOs.
13 Q. Well, let's have a look at a few entries, if we may, in this
15 MR. JOSSE: I don't have the advantage of my copy having ERN
16 numbers at the bottom, so this is going to be a little tricky to do.
17 I sought here -- heard the number "5D545." I didn't actually know
18 it was in e-court. Let's see how we get on. The seventh page, at the
19 bottom. No, these pages, unfortunately, don't marry up.
20 Is there an unmarked hard copy? I've, in fact, got one. We've
21 got a bigger one. There are two versions. Thank you, thank you very
23 Perhaps you'd give that one to the witness and perhaps you'd put
24 this one on the ELMO.
25 Q. Do you have the original with you, Mr. Kingori?
1 A. It is inside there. I have it there.
2 Q. It's in the witness room, is it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Perhaps when I continue after the break, if you'd bring it back in
5 with you.
6 A. Sure, I will.
7 Q. Now, the bit that I want to refer you to is there on the screen in
8 the left-hand side of the page. It's not entirely clear to me when the
9 meeting you are referring to took place. You might be able to help with
10 that, but we can see --
11 MR. JOSSE: No, other side of the page, please.
12 Q. It says: "BSA said the enclave is not fully demilitarised. All
13 inferences to and from the enclave will be closed as of today. BiH are
14 seen at UNPROFOR Ops, and BSA will shoot them. The situation should go
15 back to normal soonest."
16 Then it's clear from the next comment that the commander of
17 Dutch-Bat was present at the meeting.
18 Now, presumably this was some sort of meeting and you were taking
19 minutes. Is that right?
20 A. Yeah. I was taking my own minutes so that I can convey the same.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
22 MR. THAYER: If I might just ask if we could go back a couple of
23 pages, because I'm -- I'm not sure that, if we just look at what this
24 memorialises, that this actually memorialises a meeting in which the
25 witness was present with the BSA. I don't mean any disrespect to my
1 friend; but just to make the record clearer, if we go back to the
2 preceding page, it refers to a meeting with Dutch-Bat, UNMOs, and the BiH,
3 in which they relate a meeting between the liaison team from Dutch-Bat and
4 the BSA. I just wanted to clarify that.
5 MR. JOSSE:
6 Q. You heard what Mr. Thayer just said there, Colonel. That is
7 probably right, isn't it? In other words, this was a meeting between
8 Dutch-Bat and Muslim authorities, in which they were relaying allegations
9 that the Serbs were making? That's right, isn't it?
10 A. Yeah, maybe you can let me go back to the --
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. -- to the other pages.
13 Q. But the reason, frankly, I'm not very concerned about that, is
14 that what I'm trying to elicit is the fact that you were made aware of
15 allegations that the VRS were making. Whether they're making it to you or
16 making it indirectly, you knew about it, didn't you? That's the thrust of
17 the questions I'm about to ask you. I want you to be clear about that.
18 A. Maybe I'm lost. Maybe you'll bring me back on track, because I
19 don't get what question actually -- your actual question. You read these
20 and I have read it, but I don't get the actual question.
21 Q. The question is: This is an occasion when you were being made
22 aware that the Serbs were complaining about Muslim military aggression;
24 A. It is true that they were talking about the military activities
25 that was not fully -- according to them, it was not at that time
2 Q. Let's go forward a few pages, the 4th of June, because it's a
3 little bit clearer. So at the left-hand side of my page, it says: "4th of
4 June, 1995, meeting with the BiH, Dutch-Bat," and someone called
5 Mr. Ramisi [phoen]?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse, I think Madam Usher is not in a position
7 to follow. Do you have some kind of other identification reference?
8 Okay. She found it.
9 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 MR. JOSSE: No, unfortunately, it's not that. It's two pages on
12 from that, two pages on.
13 It is that. Thank you very much.
14 Q. Now, it does appear that at this meeting, no Serb was present. But
15 here we see that the BSA have threatened to shoot at BiH soldiers
16 using..." is that "artillery"? Is that short for "artillery"?
17 A. "Artillery," that's correct.
18 Q. "... or other weapons if the BiH keep shooting at BSA from UN
19 positions. The BSA have ensured the enclave that unarmed civilians will
20 be saved and they will attack only armed soldiers."
21 Colonel, you were aware, weren't you, that the VRS were suggesting
22 that the Muslims were acting in an aggressive manner towards them?
23 A. Your Honour, the issue was in here. Whenever we had meetings with
24 the BSA, whatever they told us we conveyed to the BiH, and vice versa. So
25 you can see here now this is we are reporting what we have been told to
1 the BiH. We are telling them that --
2 Q. Precisely.
3 A. -- what the BSA are saying. That is true.
4 Q. What I'm asking you is why today you continued telling this Trial
5 Chamber that you weren't aware of these allegations. That's been the
6 thrust of your evidence today and before Christmas. Why?
7 A. The fact that these reports were being made, you know, we got to
8 look at the whole issue in totality, in that the threats that we were
9 getting, the reports that we were getting from the BSA concerning what was
10 happening inside the enclave or even outside, there's the Muslims who were
11 getting out to Zepa or any other place, this is actually what is written
12 here. These are accurate reports we were getting from them.
13 When we are telling the Muslims, we are telling them so that they
14 can also tell us whether it is true, verify if it is true that that is
15 actually happening, because we've got to tell them, and I never say they
16 never did that.
17 In one of my reports, and I think in my statement, I indicated
18 that we were being told that the Muslims were actually infiltrating on
19 the -- on the Serb side. In fact, they were going to Zepa, and that is
20 indicated. And there were activities, and especially when there were
21 problems between the two -- between the two groups. That is all
22 indicated, so I'm not hiding anything out of it.
23 Q. On the 13th of December, you were asked whether Major Nikolic or
24 Colonel Vukovic or any other Serb - and I'm paraphrasing here at page
25 19168 - ever complained that Muslim forces were attacking from inside the
1 enclave or outside the enclave.
2 You give quite a long answer, and you end by saying: "It was, I
3 think, very rare or never occurred."
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. That answer is correct, is it?
6 A. It is correct.
7 Q. Then would you explain why this diary is peppered with references
8 to allegations that Serbs have made to the contrary?
9 A. If you look at the whole document, how many meetings did we have
10 with the BSA? How many meetings did we have with the BiH? If you look at
11 all that, you'll find that the complaints about the -- the incursions by
12 the -- by the BiH actually are minimal, very few, if any, and I still
13 stand by that.
14 Q. You were at pains, weren't you, in December to tell the Trial
15 Chamber about the allegations that you say -- or, I beg your pardon, about
16 what Colonel Vukovic said as to how he was going to have all the Muslims
17 removed from the enclave or forced out of the enclave. You obviously
18 remember that?
19 A. Very well, I do.
20 Q. Why is it not in the diary?
21 A. It's not everything that happened is in this diary.
22 Q. You mentioned Colonel Vukovic in the diary on at least two places,
23 don't you?
24 A. Correct, but it's not necessarily the meeting that he said that.
25 Q. No. So it's -- why is it not recorded in the diary? Explain to
1 the Court.
2 A. Your Honour, I've just said that it's not everything that is
3 recorded in this -- in this diary, and I said from the beginning that
4 there were -- there was another diary and also there was no limitation on
5 the number of books that you could go out with. Maybe it was in another
6 book that I destroyed, but the issue is that was reported even in our
7 daily sitrep. It is official. He said it and I recorded it, so the issue
8 of the diary does not arise in this case.
9 The point is what we were reporting to the UN system is that that
10 is what Colonel Vukovic said. It is evidence, and I remember very well I
11 was in that meeting and he said it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we need to stop here, Mr. Josse.
13 We'll continue at 2.15.
14 Thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, one moment, because I'm not worried about
17 ourselves and you having lunch because we can always find something to
18 eat, but what about the accused? I would like to know, and I want to be
20 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't want to speak these fellows, who
21 can speak for themselves, but I know food is provided on a daily basis.
22 Whether it amounts to lunch is another issue, but certainly they are
23 provided with food.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but what I mean is that they are not going back
25 to the Detention Unit and come back.
1 MR. JOSSE: But of course not.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I wanted to ensure is that they are given
3 something to eat while they are here and that they are not kept --
4 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour, as I tried, obviously not very
5 effectively, to explain, is that they are provided with a packed lunch.
6 They have a packed lunch, and I think they're all satisfied. Perhaps I
7 apologise to any one of them if they're not happy with what I'm saying.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll meet in 30 minutes' time from now,
9 thank you. Yes, 20 past.
10 --- Recess taken at 1.48 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a quick question to Mr. Josse. What we have in
14 e-court is not a full pact, is it?
15 MR. JOSSE: I think --
16 JUDGE KWON: This diary?
17 MR. JOSSE: I think it is the full pact, as I understand.
18 JUDGE KWON: Twenty-seven pages?
19 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Thayer, I think, can help more on that, much more
22 than me.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Just to add a little bit of detail, I advised my
25 friends in an e-mail that there were numerous blank pages throughout the
1 diary, two big chunks of blank pages where the diary - pardon me, I'm a
2 little under the weather - where the diary basically stopped at a
3 particular date. We did not scan those blank pages, given the press of
4 time to get it into the hands of my friends, but the original has been
5 available for their review.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: At any rate, for future reference, I would like to
8 know the e-court pages later on, in one way or another.
9 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
10 Your Honour, I'm going to come back to that document in a moment,
11 and I have marked in red, on the copy I had, the passages that I'm going
12 to go to, to make life for all of us easier. I regret to say that in a
13 few moments' time, I'm going to show the witness some other documents
14 which also aren't in e-court, but I think they will be less problematical.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Kingori, when we broke off, I was asking you about your
16 allegation as to what Vukovic had said to you about expelling and killing
17 Muslims, and you had told the Trial Chamber that it wasn't in your diary,
18 that it didn't matter, because it was in your daily sitrep. You're sure
19 about that, are you?
20 A. I am. The official documents of the UN is the sitrep, and we
21 ensured that we put it there.
22 Q. When was the last time you saw the relevant sitrep, the one that
23 had that report of the conversation with Vukovic in?
24 A. I think it was in -- the last time, I think, it was in December.
25 At least I saw it at that time.
1 Q. All right. Well, let's have a look at another document which
2 might shed some light on that very topic, and it's part of the NIOD
3 report. Now, you were asked about the NIOD report earlier by Ms. Fauveau.
4 Do you know what it is? There's no reason why you should know what it is;
5 but if you don't, I think I should tell you so -- out of fairness, because
6 I'm actually going to put a number of passages from it to you.
7 Do you know what the NIOD report is?
8 A. NIOD, I don't understand what it is.
9 Q. What it is is it's a report, and it was prepared I think at the
10 behest of the Dutch government by an independent institute which
11 investigated, in great depth, the events surrounding the fall of
12 Srebrenica and the events subsequent to the fall of the enclave. Okay?
13 A. Okay, I understand now.
14 Q. And parts of it have been referred to in passing in the course of
15 this case, and I think you'll answer my next question. It makes a number
16 of passing references to you, in your role. You obviously weren't aware
17 of that. Since you didn't know what the NIOD report is, you presumably
18 didn't know what it said about you; correct?
19 A. It's true, I don't know about it. I don't know what it said about
21 Q. Now, I'd like you to have a look at this part, first of all,
23 MR. JOSSE: This needs to go on the ELMO.
24 Q. Now, to help, what's going on the ELMO is a small section of part
25 3 of this very long report called "The Fall of Srebrenica," chapter 4:
1 "The Mood in the Enclave, May-July 1995". That heading has in effect
2 been cut-and-pasted into this bit, and this bit, itself, comes from
3 section 7. So we all know what we're talking about.
4 I'm going to read aloud, in fact, the first two paragraphs here.
5 It says this: "With respect to the opening of a corridor for the
6 population, UNMO Major Joseph Kingori stated in 1997 that he had been
7 invited in early June by VRS Major Nikolic to a meeting in Hotel Fontana
8 in Bratunac, which was also attended by VRS Colonel Vukovic, as well as
9 another high-ranking VRS officer.
10 "The VRS delegation had taken this opportunity to state through
11 Vukovic that the entire population would have to leave the enclave. In
12 addition, Vukovic is said to have threatened that if this did not happen,
13 he would have the population killed. However, if the population were to
14 leave, they would be offered safe passage to Tuzla.
15 "Kingori understandably said that the meeting had left him with
16 the feeling that something was in the air if no use were to be made of the
17 corridor. He also assumed that the Bosnian Serbs had passed on the same
18 message to the UN headquarters, but no indications can be found for this
19 in the UNPROFOR archives. The message clearly did not reach this
21 Do you understand what the author of the report is trying to say
22 there, Colonel?
23 A. Yes, I do understand.
24 Q. It's in complete variance to what you told the Chamber before the
25 adjournment we've just had, isn't it?
1 A. Not necessarily, because when we wrote the report and we sent it
2 to the UN headquarters, whether someone could have found it later or not,
3 really, we may not know. I may not know. But the point is he said that,
4 we recorded it, and we sent it to the UN headquarters.
5 MR. JOSSE: All right. Could we go to the next page, please.
6 Q. The paragraph I'm leaving out, in fact, simply deals with your
7 testimony here in the Krstic trial.
8 The next page, which is the paragraph after the one I've left out,
9 reads as follows: "What is surprising is that Kingori had apparently not
10 reported back what was discussed so that it could reach Dutch-Bat."
11 That, you're saying, is inaccurate. Is that correct, Major --
12 Colonel, I beg your pardon?
13 A. What they're saying is what is surprising is that Kingori had
14 apparently not reported back what was discussed so that it could reach
16 Q. Did you tell Dutch-Bat what Vukovic had said to you?
17 A. Yes, we told them.
18 Q. So what this sentence that I have just read out states is
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Let's go on: "Neither was the subject raised at the debriefing of
22 the UNMOs, including Kingori, after the fall of Srebrenica."
23 It's not in your debriefing, is it?
24 A. We were not asked that question, and so I don't remember whether
25 we raised it -- we raised it ourselves or not. But at least this was
1 known by everybody in the UN headquarters. They knew about what we had
2 reported about Colonel Vukovic, about the threats he had made. Right now
3 I think I can remember very well we talked about it during the debrief.
4 We talked about it. We told them about what they -- the events that
5 happened just prior to the fall of the enclave. We talked about it.
6 Q. Well, I think we can rest assured, Colonel, that if what this
7 report says is inaccurate, when Mr. Thayer asks some questions a little
8 later, he'll put us right. I mean, it may be the report is wrong and
9 you're right, but we'll no doubt discover shortly. So I'll move on, if I
11 Let's go back, if we may, to your journal. I'll call it that.
12 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the document I've just referred to,
13 perhaps that needs a number. I don't know if I can have some assistance
14 from Madam Registrar in that regard. No, I need to do that. We'll sort
15 it out.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
17 MR. JOSSE:
18 Q. The next passage I would like to show you is this one marked
19 "number 1".
20 MR. JOSSE: To assist, as I say, the marking "number 1" is by me.
21 The marking in the left-hand margin on the left of the "1" was not by me,
22 could I emphasise to the Chamber.
23 Q. This relates, to save everyone flipping through the diary, to a
24 meeting you had with Dutch-Bat, UNMOs, BiH, and Mr. Ramisi seems to be
25 present again; and, again, I accept that it appears that the Serbs were
1 not at the meeting. So this must be a repeat of what they had said to
2 someone, presumably the Dutch, at an earlier stage. I think this meeting
3 was on the 16th of June.
4 I beg your pardon, it wasn't Mr. Ramisi. It was the Chief of
5 Staff, Mekrem [phoen], a Dutch-Bat liaison officer.
6 This says: "BiH CRS say they have recently requested for
7 assistance from the 2nd Corps HQ and have recently received. He said he
8 feels stronger than he was 15 days ago."
9 Military build-up by the Muslims is what is being said there;
11 A. Correct. You can interpret it that way, yeah.
12 Q. Well, did you interpret it that way? You were at the meeting, you
13 wrote this down.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. Beside that, meeting on the 20th of June.
16 MR. JOSSE: So number 2, please. This refers to, as I've already
17 said, the 20th of June.
18 If we go down a little bit, we can actually see -- scroll down the
19 page down a little bit. A bit more, please. No, down, on the ELMO to
20 you, yes. No, the other way, the other way. That's it. Thank you.
21 Q. So I won't read out what it says at the top there: "Afternoon,
22 BiH soldiers shot at a BSA vehicle travelling a wrong road to former OPE,
23 and it landed into the river, and a firefight ensued."
24 It looks like there was some ABiH aggression there, doesn't it,
1 A. Yeah, it can be seen it's there.
2 Q. I repeat my earlier question. Why haven't you mentioned this in
3 your evidence hitherto, after you didn't think it was relevant? Tell the
5 A. I have mentioned about these incursions. It's only that I may not
6 have mentioned as many times as maybe you think should have been
7 mentioned. But at least I've mentioned somewhere that there were issues
8 to do with the BiH activity inside and even to the BSA on the other side,
9 against the BSA. It is mentioned somewhere.
10 MR. JOSSE: All right. Could we go to number 3, please.
11 Q. That, again, to put it into context, relates to a meeting on the
12 27th of June with the BiH, Mr. Ramisi, liaison officer team, UNMO, and
13 here we see it says: "Dutch-Bat protested the armed soldiers along the
14 streets of the enclave."
15 Now, did you see that?
16 A. Your Honour, it's not a matter of even seeing, because I wrote
17 about this even in our sitrep, about the presence of armed soldiers and
18 that we were not happy about it. We saw I think there were three or four
19 along -- along the streets, and we mentioned about it.
20 Q. Three or four soldiers, that's all?
21 A. Yeah, we saw soldiers on the way. I can't remember the actual --
22 the actual number, but we reported on the same.
23 MR. JOSSE: And to waste no time, let's go to number 4, please,
24 which is a meeting of the 30th of June.
25 Q. You might be able to help here: "Dutch-Bat said the patrol was a
1 normal one and saw five BiH and" and what does the next abbreviation stand
3 A. And a commander.
4 Q. 2MG machine-guns?
5 A. Yeah, that's machine-gun.
6 Q. SA?
7 A. Small arms.
8 Q. "And carried on with their ..."?
9 A. "Patrol."
10 Q. "... towards 399." What's that a reference to?
11 A. The 399, that is a trick point, one high ground.
12 Q. So, help. Who had the machine-guns and the small arms?
13 A. This is the BiH soldiers that the Dutch-Bat saw. This is a report
14 from Dutch-Bat.
15 Q. "As they proceeded, they met five BiH soldiers in firing positions
16 who stopped them. The patrol wanted to continue, but 12 other BiH
17 approached from height 789 and loaded them weapons, threatening the
18 Dutch-Bat patrol."
19 Do you --
20 A. Yeah, this is a report by Dutch-Bat. They are the ones who are
22 Q. Yes. And do you recall that being mentioned at the meeting?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Yes. Did you put that in your sitrep?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You did?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. So you'd agree with me that you were aware of a number of
4 allegations of Muslim aggression prior to the attack on the enclave by the
6 A. We need to separate some of this. Like, when we are talking about
7 this particular one, the one in front of us right now, this was a
8 complaint by Dutch-Bat itself, not that they were acting against the BSA.
9 Of course, they are armed; and when they are armed, obviously that is an
10 issue to us. But this is Dutch-Bat complaining, not the BSA, because they
11 were now preventing the Dutch-Bat from their routine from carrying on with
12 their duties.
13 The other areas, if you can remember what I said concerning the --
14 the number of people who were armed inside the enclave as compared to the
15 BSA, you'll find that this is a negligible number, for sure. This is
16 quite negligible. And if you also compare the kind of weapons these
17 people had, five soldiers with two machine-guns and small arms, compared
18 with the ammunition that the BSA had, and you -- and they were around the
19 enclave, it's simply incomparable.
20 Q. Why is that relevant? You've chosen to tell the Trial Chamber
21 those last two sentences. Explain why that's at all relevant to what I've
22 just been asking you?
23 A. What I'm saying here is it is important to report everything, and
24 we were reporting everything as we were seeing it. But then you cannot
25 fail to compare the kind of -- the armament or the kind of weapons that
1 the two sides had. You see that this is -- the difference is quite big.
2 The BSA were all around the enclave, fully, fully, fully armed, compared
3 with five -- well, five -- two machine-guns and some small arms. It's
4 quite incomparable, totally incomparable.
5 Q. I'll tell you, Colonel, why it's relevant. It's relevant, is it
6 not, because in your mind, you had taken the side of the Muslims and you
7 were not acting in an impartial manner. That's why what you've just said
8 is relevant, isn't it?
9 A. Your Honour, I never said and I never used the word "irrelevant."
10 There's nothing which is irrelevant to a military observer. We, as
11 military observers, we make sure that we report everything that we see,
12 everything that we find, everything that we are told, and we go through
13 all that before we pass it on to the higher headquarters.
14 Secondly, an issue of being biased, as far as I'm concerned, does
15 not arise at all, because I was there as a neutral person. I personally
16 did not have any interests, I never have, and I don't think I will ever
17 have. My country, Kenya, has got no national interest there.
18 What I'm saying is -- I mean national interests that maybe I could
19 be protecting, none at all.
20 So there's no issue of being biased, and there's no reason for me
21 to get biased because that was influencing me or even my judgement at that
22 particular moment concerning what was going on inside the enclave. It's
23 only that you have to compare the two areas, because that was part of our
24 role, so that you can see both sides were unequal. That is true. So
25 there should be no match. The Srebrenica -- the Muslims who were inside
1 there were no match for the Serbs.
2 That's why we were there, to make sure that these guys were safe,
3 because most of the weapons were held somewhere in a safe place, as far as
4 we knew.
5 So comparing this kind of weapons with the other side, that may
6 repeat what I've said, but it is imperative that we realise that there was
7 no reason why an observer like me would be biased at all. There was
8 nothing to force me to get biased to any of the warring factions. I could
9 sit with either side. We could discuss issues. I could report what I was
10 told from this side to the other side.
11 It is on record that even General Ratko Mladic mentioned that he
12 had heard much about us, as observers, and how neutral we were and how
13 good we were to his people. Major Nikolic was also aware that whatever we
14 were reporting, we were very neutral. So there was no doubts about my
15 personal neutrality, and I was not biased at all.
16 Q. I'll move --
17 JUDGE KWON: Sorry, Mr. Josse. Can I interrupt.
18 If I can put it this way, Mr. Kingori, you just compared the
19 quality of arms that were held by BSA, on the one hand, and those held by
20 the Muslims inside the enclave, on the other hand. But inside the
21 enclave, one was not supposed to be armed at all; am I correct?
22 THE WITNESS: You're correct, they're not supposed to be armed.
23 JUDGE KWON: But if you are to compare the quality of arms, you
24 have to compare that of the BSA and that held by the Tuzla or 2nd Corps or
1 THE WITNESS: Maybe it's not very clear, but the -- the reason why
2 one has got to compare is not that you are going there to compare, that is
3 not the aim. The aim is not to compare. The aim is to show that these
4 people inside the enclave were disarmed. And when you notice one or two
5 guns, really, yeah, you're going to report on it, but it's not as much as
6 held on the other side.
7 JUDGE KWON: So my point was that if one is not to be supposed
8 armed at all, then comparison is not relevant.
9 THE WITNESS: It is true, but I've said that the aim was not to
10 compare. It's only that you are forced, when you see the kind of reaction
11 from the other side and this other side, because at the same time, because
12 the enclave was demilitarised, the BSA were not supposed to harm or even
13 fire at the enclave, but they were also doing that.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 Mr. Josse.
16 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I'm going to move on to another topic.
17 Q. You, in your evidence in December, described, I think in graphic
18 detail, the attack on the enclave, and you used, on a number of occasions,
19 the word "onslaught," and I suppose you don't resile from a strong word
20 like that, do you?
21 A. "Onslaught."
22 Q. That was a word you chose to use on at least two occasions before
24 A. Yeah, yeah, I may have used it. I don't remember very well, but I
25 may have used it.
1 Q. And I want to summarise your description of this onslaught.
2 On the 6th of July, you said that you heard about 250 ordinance;
3 7th, 250; the 8th, you said, was the heaviest day. I don't think you gave
4 a figure, but clearly it was more than 250; correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. The 9th, you said you heard over 100, and of course you moved to
7 Potocari. And on the 10th, you again heard shells from Potocari. You
8 said 100, plus other detonations; and, of course, you were also getting
9 information from Emir, your yellow card. Correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. So we are talking about something like a thousand shells, are we,
12 falling on Srebrenica in this period?
13 A. Yeah, around that figure, maybe.
14 Q. And that's a lot of shells, isn't it?
15 A. It is.
16 Q. Did you go to Srebrenica after these events? In other words, when
17 you left Potocari, you didn't go back to Srebrenica, did you?
18 A. I went back.
19 Q. You did?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. So you went back and you saw what damage these thousand shells had
23 A. Your Honour, the shelling was not just inside the village of
24 Srebrenica. It was not just in the town. Where I went was the town, and
25 I saw the kind of damage that was inside there, not necessarily caused by
1 the 1.000 shells, because the 1.000 shells were not on the Srebrenica town
2 as the target.
3 Q. No, because a good number of these shells were targeted at
4 surrounding hills, where there were Muslim military encampments; correct?
5 A. Some were just missing their targets and hitting the hills, and
6 that is mentioned also.
7 Q. Were there Muslim military encampments in the hills, fighters?
8 A. Not that I know of.
9 Q. Before I go on with this, did you go to Vukovar after it had been
10 shelled? Were you in Vukovar at any point in time?
11 A. Vukovar, yeah. That was my first station en route.
12 Q. Yes, exactly. And were you there after it had been shelled by the
14 A. Yeah, that's when I went there.
15 Q. What state was it in?
16 A. A state of disrepair.
17 Q. Yes. It was very badly damage?
18 A. Correct, you are quite right.
19 Q. Compare Vukovar to the village of Srebrenica after it had been
20 shelled by the Serbs.
21 A. It's good to compare that, but I don't know whether you know that
22 the kind of damage that was in Vukovar was caused by different things. I
23 mean, it was not just shelling from outside. Vukovar, what those people
24 did, they were going into houses and putting mines or detonations and then
25 detonating the whole building. This is different from mass shelling from
1 the outside.
2 Q. Answer the question. You said it was good to compare it. Compare
3 it, please.
4 A. It was --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the witness is trying to answer the
7 question and, in fact, did answer the question. I think my friend needs
8 to just calm down a little bit and keep the temperature a little lower.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we send him outside on the terrace? Yes, I
10 think you can safely move to the next question, Mr. Josse. I mean, he's
11 told you that he cannot really draw a comparison because the circumstances
12 would have --
13 MR. JOSSE: I'll go back to Srebrenica, Mr. Thayer will be
14 relieved to hear.
15 Q. Let me then ask you: You went there. Describe the damage that
16 you saw in Srebrenica after all these days of shelling.
17 A. Your Honour, Srebrenica was not the same anymore. It was not the
18 same place that we had left. A lot of buildings had been freshly damaged,
19 part of the roads were cratered, also the Bravo Company compound had also
20 been cratered, and a lot of other areas. The PTT building had also been
21 hit, and all those other damages. The place was very different. It was
22 not the PTT. It was not the Srebrenica that we had left, I think, three
23 or four or five days earlier.
24 Q. I was going to ask you to specify which building you say had been
25 hit. You say the PTT was hit. Any others, significant buildings that you
1 can remember?
2 A. The hospital had also been hit.
3 Q. In what way?
4 A. By a shell.
5 Q. Where?
6 A. I can't remember the actual location, but it was hit.
7 Q. Let's have a look.
8 A. And we reported that also.
9 MR. JOSSE: Let's have a look at 6D209, please.
10 Your Honour, this is a still from a video of the 14th of July,
11 part of the trial video.
12 Q. That's the hospital, isn't it?
13 A. I can't remember it very well now. It's all those years ago, but
14 at least I can see it. It could be a hospital, itself, yeah.
15 Q. Where was that building hit, please?
16 A. I can't remember which place.
17 MR. JOSSE: 6D214, please.
18 Q. Is that the PTT?
19 A. I can't recognise it from there.
20 MR. JOSSE: 6D213.
21 Q. Does that help you at all? PTT?
22 MR. JOSSE: I beg your pardon, I'm told that's the police station.
23 I'm sorry, my fault.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one, this one or the previous?
25 MR. JOSSE: This one, this one.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you recognise it, Colonel, or not?
2 THE WITNESS: This one, I don't. I don't recognize it.
3 MR. JOSSE: Let's have a look at 6D210, please.
4 Q. Not a great picture, I concede, but that's a bit of a Bravo
5 compound; correct?
6 A. It could be. It's not very clear, yeah.
7 Q. I accept that.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I certainly wouldn't trust you with mounting a
9 photography exhibition, Mr. Josse.
10 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour, I concede that. Perhaps I should
11 have played the video.
12 Q. Anyway, your recollection is of damage in the way that you've
13 described to the PTT, the hospital?
14 A. Yeah, the Bravo Company compound.
15 Q. Could I just ask you this: Mr. Lazarevic showed you the mortar
16 being fired earlier from the petrol station. What distance is that petrol
17 station from the hospital?
18 A. Do I remember? Really, I cannot. I can't be able to estimate now
19 for sure.
20 Q. Presumably, you can't remember what distance it was from the PTT
22 A. Yeah, I can't. I can't. I can't visualise where it was.
23 Q. When you went back, what state was the mosque in?
24 A. I didn't see the mosque. I didn't go to the mosque.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think the evidence in the case has
2 shown that there is more than one mosque in Srebrenica, so if my friend
3 could be a little more specific.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one in town, downtown, and one as you
5 enter, before you enter Srebrenica.
6 MR. JOSSE: It wasn't designed as a trick question. The witness
7 could have told us that.
8 Q. Did you recall there was more than one mosque, without being
10 A. Yeah, at least I know there are mosques inside the enclave.
11 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you're exaggerating this damage. Do
12 you understand that?
13 A. I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with it,
14 because the damage, I saw to it, and it was different from the way it was
15 before. After all that shelling, definitely it was different. I saw it.
16 And though I did not go throughout the whole village, at least where I
17 saw, I could see there was a lot of damage, as compared to how it was when
18 we were there before we left for Potocari.
19 Q. Were you surprised it wasn't more damage, bearing in mind the
20 extent of the shelling that you have described?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. So it was lucky, Srebrenica, in your estimation?
23 A. In my estimation, it was lucky.
24 Q. And you've already said that you take the same view as to the
25 number of wounded and fatalities. It was surprising there were so few,
1 bearing in mind the ferocity of the attack?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. So coincidence favoured the inhabitants on this occasion? "Good
4 fortune," perhaps I should have said.
5 A. On what? I mean --
6 Q. I'll move on. I've asked that question.
7 Now, I said I was going to come back to the NIOD report. I want
8 to take you to another part of it, please.
9 MR. JOSSE: If I might have a moment. I think it may be on the
10 ELMO. I hope so. No, it's not, it's bare. I beg your pardon.
11 Again, Madam Usher, you're going to have to stand by the ELMO. My
12 apologies, please.
13 Q. We've got part 4, the repercussion and the aftermath until the end
14 of 1995. This is part of Chapter 4: "Potocari-Dutch-Bat and the fate of
15 the local population." This is section 24 which deals with observations
16 and reports by the UNMOs.
17 You might want to read that first page perhaps to yourself so that
18 you are fully aware of what knowledge the author of this report gained
19 about your role, in effect.
20 Whilst you are doing that, to summarise, the first paragraph
21 really deals with the role of UNMO in general, and the second paragraph
22 specifically deals with UNMO involvement in the events in Srebrenica, and
23 explains what should have happened, at least in theory.
24 When you finish, say so.
25 A. Yeah, I've read.
1 MR. JOSSE: Just turn the page, please.
2 Q. I'm going to read the next paragraph and ask you some
3 questions: "The reality of the UNMO activities during the last days of
4 Srebrenica was rather less rosy. When the attack began, there were three
5 UNMOs in the enclave."
6 That's correct, isn't it?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. "Three others had left on June 24th to be rotated, but the VRS did
9 not allow their replacements to enter the enclave."
10 You've told us about that already, haven't you?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. "Many Dutch soldiers, including the battalion's commanding
13 officers, later criticised the three remaining UNMOs in Srebrenica."
14 Are you now aware, Colonel, that you have been criticised by
15 Dutch-Bat in the way that this report describes, or was this the first
16 time you've learnt of it?
17 A. This is the -- the first time I'm learning about it, but we could
18 also criticise them. They failed in very many areas. They are the ones
19 who failed the enclave. So it's not a matter of them criticising us. We
20 were doing our job, and we did it well.
21 Q. Let's go on: "They complain," this is Dutch-Bat, "about their,"
22 that is UNMO's "'invisibility,' tendency to hold back, and even fear in
23 monitoring and reporting the events during the crucial days of the fall of
24 the enclave and what happened afterwards."
25 What do you say about that allegation that Dutch-Bat, certain
1 members of it, has made against you?
2 A. That is very inaccurate. In actual fact, we were the main force
3 in the enclave, and they were even depending on us to escort them. We
4 were the ones who were monitoring the whole enclave, when these guys had
5 gone back to the battalion headquarters. In fact, we were left out there
6 to monitor whatever activities were happening.
7 And even in some of the reports somewhere, I've written that we
8 were left alone and we were in soft-skinned vehicles, and we were
9 patrolling the enclave alone. And in fact, at that time, we were just
10 two, not three, because that one, a Dutch, was already in Dutch-Bat
11 compound. In fact, when the shelling started, and even about a week
12 before that, we were only two military observers, me and Major David
13 Tetteh. The other one, Dehan, was in the Dutch-Bat compound.
14 So considering the actual situation at that time, you can see we
15 were doing our work, and we were monitored. We were everywhere. It's
16 only that we were limited by the number that we had, two. In fact, we did
17 not even form a patrol. A patrol team was supposed to be two and one
18 interpreter, and that is one; and then you get another two and an
19 interpreter together. You move out together.
20 But here, we ourselves were separating. We were leaving one
21 observer in the offices, and we could put one observer in the vehicle, and
22 an interpreter, to form like a team. Does that mean cowardice or fear?
23 You going out there, knowing that you are alone as an observer. We were
24 patrolling and coming back and giving reports, even during the fighting.
25 When the shelling was continuing, we were going out there. We could leave
1 one person inside the office, and we go out.
2 So what they are saying here, this is not true at all. Maybe
3 they're just trying to justify their own failures. As far as I'm
4 concerned, we did our job to the best of our ability, considering the
5 limitations that we had.
6 Q. Well, I'm going to go through other parts of this.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For how much longer?
8 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to go through the rest of this page,
9 Your Honour. But, I mean, the witness gave a very long answer. I'm not
10 going to stop him. If the Chamber feels that the answers are --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: But how much more time do you require, because you
12 have exceeded the one hour already.
13 MR. JOSSE: I'd say 15 minutes to go through the rest of this
14 page, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make it ten, please.
16 MR. JOSSE:
17 Q. I'll go on: "Karremans," who was the commander, "as well as
18 Franken," who was his deputy, "accused the UNMOs of not taking greater
19 advantage of their special position and wider mandate to at least try to
20 follow the events better."
21 What do you say about that?
22 A. That is all false.
23 Q. "In Karremans' eyes, they could have followed convoys by car; or at
24 the start of the evacuation, they can stand in the middle of Bratunac, so
25 to speak. Moreover, the UNMOs would even have been able to use the excuse
1 that their second office was in Bratunac, at the Hotel Fontana."
2 What do you say about that?
3 A. That is a flat lie. It is a flat lie, and I don't know. Whoever
4 was writing this, whoever gave this, really was just trying to justify his
5 position by discrediting others or he was under pressure. This is someone
6 who was under pressure somewhere, because UNMOs were all the time in their
7 area of responsibility.
8 When we were not, after we left Srebrenica and we went to
9 Dutch-Bat, in fact, we were scattered in the whole of that area to cover
10 the whole -- the whole place. And even when there were meetings, we would
11 go to those meetings. And in fact, calling Bratunac our second office,
12 that is an insult. It is an insult, because Bratunac, we went there I
13 think only twice for meetings which had been requested by the BSA.
14 So this is someone who is trying to, I think, divert attention
15 from their own failures. Karremans failed. That is a fact.
16 Q. Okay. Well, it goes on, in fairness to the report, to say
17 that: "Conversely, the UNMOs complained especially about the poor
18 information that they received from the battalion, something that is
19 supposed to have hampered their activities. Even early on July 12, they
20 already reported their frustration about having been ignored in
21 consultations between Dutch-Bat and other aid organisations.
22 "'They tell us outright we are not required. We feel
23 frustrated.'" However, that may already have been the result of a loss of
24 credibility at the time. Dutch-Bat personnel, as well as local staff,
25 complained about the fact that the UNMOs made their own job more difficult
1 by leaving their office at the post office in Srebrenica quite early in
2 the piece, on July the 9th."
3 In other words, they're suggesting you ran rather too early.
4 Isn't that right?
5 A. That is not right. We never ran from our headquarters, and we
6 were giving constant information to the UN headquarters concerning the
7 state of the enclave and about the enclosure -- I mean, the encroachment
8 of the enclave by the tanks from the BSA. And when they were within range
9 of our PTT building, about two kilometres or so, that is the time we
10 decided to leave. By that time, it was very risky to continue staying
11 there, and especially when these are a tank which can get a direct hit.
12 That is not something to joke around with.
13 So we feared for our safety, and it is on record. It is recorded
14 that we decided to request that we be allowed to leave our PTT building.
15 We requested the UN, through the normal UNMO channels, and they agreed
16 that according to the circumstances at that time, we can leave. That is
17 not fear, that is not running away. That is actually going to a safer
19 And even after that, the BiH prevented us from leaving, but we
20 requested them further, and it is on record also that later is the time
21 they agreed to let us leave. By that time, the tanks were very close,
22 less than two kilometres away. So do you stay there until you're hit, and
23 people start praising you for having been killed? No, we could not do
24 that. So we decided that our safe bet was to go to the Dutch-Bat
25 compound, which, to us, was slightly safer.
1 And by the way, when saying that we were scared and they were not,
2 how many OPs had been closed at that time? Why did they run away from the
4 Q. Well, the author of this report doesn't, sadly, agree with you,
5 because it goes on to say that: "At the time the UNMOs left Srebrenica in
6 a great hurry, one of them, De Haan, was already in the compound at
7 Potocari," and you've told us that.
8 So moving on a few lines: "The remaining UNMOs, Kingori and
9 Tetteh, already joined him on July the 9th, when things got too hot for
10 them and they left the compound again only after the fall of the enclave."
11 Would you agree with that characterisation, that you left when
12 things got, quote "too hot" for you?
13 A. That is true. That is exactly what I mean, but also look at where
14 they say that they left the compound again only after the fall of the
15 enclave. Is that true, even to yourself? Did you read the report, that I
16 went back to Srebrenica itself, that I was out -- we were outside the
17 compound, talking to the BSA, monitoring what was happening out there?
18 So what do they mean by inside, that we just stayed inside? This
19 is a distortion.
20 Q. It then goes on and says that it didn't make a very good
21 impression that you sent your yellow card back, and then the last sentence
22 on this page says: "Some Dutch-Bat soldiers like to call the UNMOs
23 'UNBOs,' standing for 'UN Bunker Observers,' because 'when something had
24 to be observed, these people were sitting in the bunkers.'".
25 You were scared, and the Dutch-Bat characterisation of you, as
1 someone sitting in a bunker is accurate, sadly, isn't it, Colonel?
2 A. Your Honour, this is a distortion of the truth. This is actually
3 directly the opposite of what we did. We were able to go around the whole
4 enclave. And even during this, this incursion, we were able to monitor
5 what was happening. We reported, and it's evidenced by the reports that
6 we made, the counting of those shells. Going out to analyse, does that
7 mean staying in the bunker?
8 Do you analyse when you are in a bunker? It is in the report that
9 we analysed the craters, did the reports, grid references, and all that.
10 You are not doing that inside the bunker. So I'm sure you also do not
11 believe what is written here.
12 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
14 Mr. Ostojic.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Not more than 30 minutes, please.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, sir.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic.
19 Q. Colonel, as you know, my name is John Ostojic, and I represent the
20 Mr. Ljubisa Beara. Good afternoon to you, sir.
21 A. Thank you, sir.
22 Q. Thank you. I just want confirm a couple of things from reading
23 your reports or your report of 1997 and your testimony here, sir.
24 Can you confirm to me that you never met Mr. Ljubisa Beara during
25 July of 1995?
1 A. Your Honour, I don't remember meeting someone of that name.
2 Q. So can you confirm that you never heard of his name during the
3 period of July 1995?
4 A. Your Honour, that name is not familiar to me.
5 Q. Sir, in your September 1997 report that you reviewed prior to
6 giving your testimony in December of last year, can you confirm that you
7 also never mentioned Mr. Ljubisa Beara in that report during the interview
8 that you gave to the Prosecutor from the ICTY?
9 A. Your Honour, I'm not familiar with that. I don't remember that
10 name at all.
11 Q. And one last question with respect to specifically Mr. Beara. Can
12 you confirm in the diary that you brought with you this past Tuesday that
13 nowhere in that report do you reference or mention the name of Mr. Beara;
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes, Your Honour, I don't. I have not mentioned him.
16 Q. Now, I want to ask you a couple questions about these three
17 colonels that you mentioned in your statement and some of which is in your
18 diary. That would be Colonel Vukovic; Colonel Drcic, D-R-C-I-C, as you've
19 identified him in your sit reports and in your statement of 1997; and a
20 Colonel Acamovic. Do you remember those three colonels?
21 A. Yes, I do, Your Honour.
22 Q. And in the interests of time, sir, if I can just -- or if you can
23 help me understand this, you saw and met Colonel Acamovic around July 12th
24 and 13th, 1995; correct?
25 A. That's correct, Your Honour.
1 Q. And did you see him at any time after the 13th of July, 19 1995?
2 A. I don't remember the actual date, but at least he was there, and I
3 don't -- I don't know. I don't know. I can't remember whether I met him
4 after that, really, Your Honour.
5 Q. Can you describe for Your Honours what this colonel looked like?
6 Was he an older man, younger man, middle-aged? Given that he's a Colonel,
7 would you assume that maybe he was in his 50s?
8 A. Yeah, of course, all colonels are in their 50s. I am one. But he
9 was like -- he was a bit older.
10 Q. Tall or short, sir?
11 A. Acamovic, I think this is someone I really cannot be able to
12 describe properly.
13 Q. What about grey hair? Do you remember the colour of his hair;
14 grey, black, blonde?
15 A. I can't. It's out of my mind.
16 Q. And other characteristics such as eyeglasses? Do you remember
17 whether he wore any eyeglasses?
18 A. No, I can't right on this. It's blank.
19 Q. Thank you. Let's talk about the other colonel, D-R-C-I-C, as
20 you've spelled his name before and as reflected in your report. This
21 Colonel Drcic, do you remember what he looked like? Was he taller or
22 shorter than yourself, sir?
23 A. Drcic. You know, the two, I normally confuse them, Colonel Drcic
24 and Colonel Acamovic. I normally confuse them because I didn't have a lot
25 of interaction with them, not very much. But I can't remember which one
1 was slightly taller than me. There was one that was slightly taller than
2 me and the other one shorter, but I can't remember which one. Drcic, I
3 think, is also in my report, but I would not be able to describe him. I
4 cannot remember him very well.
5 Q. But do you recall if he had grey hair, sir, or the colour of his
6 hair at all?
7 A. No, I can't.
8 Q. Okay. And do you recall if he had any other distinguishing
9 characteristics, such as eyeglasses or a balding or receding hairline?
10 A. No, I can't.
11 Q. Now, you were one of the military observers. These meetings that
12 you had with Colonel Vukovic -- I'm sorry, with General Acamovic and
13 Colonel Vukovic, they were rather important, were they not?
14 A. The what?
15 Q. The meetings that you had or when you met them, those were
16 important encounters, were they not?
17 A. They were. They were important in contrast.
18 Q. And you don't describe them at all in your statement of 1997, and
19 you don't describe them at all in your sit reports; is that correct?
20 A. I have described Acamovic, I think.
21 Q. In terms of physical description, I am asking think, sir?
22 A. Yes, I think I described Acamovic; but Drcic, I would not be able
23 to describe him.
24 Q. How about the third colonel, which is Colonel Vukovic, can you
25 describe him better for you than what you have in your statement of
1 September 1997?
2 A. Yes, Acamovic [sic], I can remember very well. I think he was
3 slightly , not very at all, slightly taller than me.
4 Q. Let me just interrupt you. I'm actually talking about Colonel
5 Vukovic now. I thought we already covered Acamovic.
6 Just so the record is clear, you started by saying that you
7 remember Acamovic very well, and I just want to make sure I'm correct on
9 A. Vukovic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: He said Vukovic, not Acamovic. Vukovic.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Just on line 5, it says"Acamovic," that is why I
12 reference it, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a mistake. I really wasn't following the
14 transcript, but I heard him distinctly mention --
15 MR. OSTOJIC: That's why I pointed out just the word clearly, Your
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir.
19 THE WITNESS: Vukovic, I would be able to describe him. As I
20 said, I saw him, I can remember him, and he was slightly taller than me.
21 At that time, I was giving him the age of 50. But when I reached 50, I
22 think he looked slightly older than me. So he was round-faced, sort of,
23 and I think he had a mark somewhere. I can't remember very well. He was
24 very forceful when talking. When he's talking to you, he's a bit
1 Q. Do you remember if he had grey hair or not, sir, or a receding
3 A. The hair, no. I just remember the face. The hair, I can't
4 remember how it was.
5 Q. And you say it was a round, large face that you remember for
6 Colonel Vukovic; correct?
7 A. Yeah. He was slightly round, round-faced.
8 Q. Okay. Now, let me also ask you, if you remember, during the
9 September 1997 interview, you recall that you were at a meeting with a
10 person by the name of "Miroslav Drnic" [phoen]. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in that meeting, there were two colonels present, were there
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And can you tell me, sir, to the best of your recollection, who
16 those two colonels were?
17 A. I'm not very sure.
18 Q. Just quickly, if I read to you from your September 1997 report, on
19 page 12, you reference Colonel Drcic and Colonel Vukovic. Would that be
21 A. It is possible. Those two could have been there.
22 Q. If we look at your sit report, which was an attachment to your
23 September 1997 report, Attachment, I think, number 26, it references those
24 two colonels; correct? Do you remember that?
25 A. Yeah, I think it references the two.
1 Q. Thank you. One last area, if I may, just to cover with you: When
2 we discussed, sir, in your testimony previously the willingness of the
3 Bosnian Muslims to leave the enclave, you used terms such as "refugees,"
4 "displaced persons," et cetera. Do you remember that, generally
6 A. Yeah, generally, I used those words.
7 Q. Now, do you recall, sir, in one of your sit reports dated the 8th
8 of July, 1995, that you give a breakdown of the number of inhabitants in
10 A. Yes, I do. We give that.
11 Q. And as you sit here, do you remember why you called the people
12 within Srebrenica in July of 1995 as refugees or displaced persons?
13 A. I don't know whether the words were used correctly. I don't know
14 whether it was correct or not, but most of the people inside the enclave
15 were not living in their own natural habitats. Some of them were moved
16 from areas that they were living in before to other areas. A good example
17 would be the [indiscernible] village, where people have built some houses
18 and were taken there. Those are not their normal habitats. That's not
19 where they were living before, so that is why I mentioned, I used those
21 Q. And when you say "most," sir, would I be correct to interpret that
22 to be 80 to 85 per cent were actually people who were displaced into
23 Srebrenica in July or immediately prior to that of 1995?
24 A. That is the type of background that is not with me at the moment,
25 whether they were actually there from the outside or whether they were
1 actually in or displaced or taken to different areas.
2 Q. Well, how do you -- what is your definition of the word "locals"?
3 If people were locals, would that indicate that they were people that were
4 actually from the very area upon which we're discussing?
5 A. "Locals," it depends on the perspective you are saying it, because
6 if like when we are here, the locals are the people who belong here, but
7 it can be these -- this town, this building, it can be. So for that, I
8 don't remember what --
9 Q. Thank you. What percentage of the Srebrenica population, in July
10 of 1995, were locals?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Colonel, if you know, you know. If you don't know,
12 tell us you don't know.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't know that one.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Let's look at 65 ter 493, please, which is your UNMO
15 report dated the 8th of July, 1995, which was attachment number 1 to your
16 statement in September of 1997.
17 Q. Do you remember that report, sir?
18 A. Yeah, I remember this report.
19 Q. And just looking on the subject, it talks about the food situation
20 in Srebrenica and the status for food to the civilian population.
21 Immediately below that, under number 1, it talks about the number and
22 status of inhabitants. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I see it.
24 Q. And under B, I mean, there is subsection (a), but under (b) you
25 talk about 85 per cent of the people who are there are refugees or
1 displaced persons; and under (c), you say 20 per cent as being locals.
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Would that be accurate, to be your knowledge, that this an UNMO --
5 A. This could be accurate.
6 Q. Pardon me?
7 A. This could be accurate.
8 Q. Just to make sure we are be accurate, 85 and 20 is a little more
9 than 100 per cent, isn't it?
10 A. I know that's the percentage, but that could have been, you know,
11 a typographical error.
12 Q. And that's why in my question earlier to you, I suggested, it was
13 80 to 85 per cent were people who were refugees or displaced persons, as
14 the UNMO report reflects on the 8th of July 1995. Would that sound about
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And isn't it true, sir, that the 80 to 85 per cent of the people,
18 not being from the enclave in Srebrenica, had no willingness to continue
19 remain in that enclave for any period of time? Isn't that what you
20 observed, sir?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You didn't observe that?
23 A. We didn't observe that they didn't want to stay there.
24 Q. You observed that they wanted to stay there?
25 A. As far as they were concerned and according to what we were seeing
1 and getting from them is that they wanted to continue living inside the
3 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, Colonel.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
5 You have -- we need to finish as soon as possible, because I don't
6 want to create problems for the interpreters and technicians, et cetera,
7 so try to limit yourself as much as you can, please.
8 MR. THAYER: I will, Mr. President.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel.
11 A. Good afternoon, sir.
12 Q. And happy new year.
13 A. Happy new year to you, too.
14 Q. I think it's going to get happier soon for you, I hope.
15 A. Maybe tomorrow, when I go back.
16 Q. Sir, you testified that you tried to inspect the Dutch-Bat Bravo
17 Company compound in Srebrenica because you had received a report that it
18 had been shelled. Do you recall that testimony, sir?
19 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
20 Q. Do you recall the precise source of that report or information?
21 A. That shelling, we had been told by -- by Emir. Emir is the one
22 who told us that it had been shelled.
23 Q. And when you refer to the B Company compound being cratered, what
24 are you referring to specifically, sir?
25 A. Your Honour, what I'm referring to is that there were shells that
1 landed, that hit that particular place, and my main point is that from the
2 BSA, they shelled that place.
3 Q. Now, you were shown and asked questions based upon the statement
4 of Hasan Nuhanovic, sir?
5 A. Yes, Your Honour.
6 Q. I want to just turn your attention to a couple of portions.
7 MR. THAYER: This is 1D451.
8 Q. Now, to save time, sir, you -- do you recall testifying about a
9 series of sitreps which you authored on the 8th, one of which my friend
10 just showed, and on the 9th of July, which you transmitted from
11 Srebrenica? Do you remember that, sir? Do you remember those reports?
12 A. Correct, Your Honour.
13 Q. You were asked some questions about whether you were in fact in
14 Srebrenica on the 8th of July. I just want to ask you: Do you have any
15 reason to doubt the accuracy of those reports or your recollection about
16 the date on which those reports were written and issued?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to page 2, the second page of
19 Mr. Nuhanovic's statement, and particularly if we could look at the
20 paragraph that begins: "On 10 July ..."
21 "On 10 July, my colleague Emir Suljagic, who evacuated with the
22 UNMOs on 8 July to the Dutch-Bat compound, returned to the PTT building
23 alone. He had walked six kilometres and brought with him a military map
24 and a Motorola radio. He said the UNMOs gave him the radio and map since
25 he voluntarily wanted to come back to Srebrenica in order to report what
1 was happening in the town.
2 "We used the map to determine the coordinates of the BSA positions
3 and impact points of the shelling. We radioed the information to the
5 My question, Colonel, is: Other than the date of 8 July, which
6 Mr. Hasan Nuhanovic has obviously recalled your withdrawal from
7 Srebrenica, how does this passage comport with your recollection of these
9 A. First of all, the date, 8th July, is not when we left Srebrenica.
10 We left Srebrenica on 9th of July.
11 Secondly, we never gave -- we never got any reports from Hasan at
12 all. The reports we got from one of the -- I mean, we got reports from
13 Emir Suljagic. That is the one who gave us reports.
14 Q. And do you recall learning at any time that Mr. Hasan Nuhanovic
15 was spending time with Emir in the process of gathering this information?
16 If you don't, that's fine. If you do, please let us know whether you --
17 whether you recall such information?
18 A. Not at all, we never got to know that.
19 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to page 4. Specifically, in
20 the middle of the paragraph that begins: "In the morning, around 0600
21 hours ..."
22 This is describing events on the 11th of July: "The parking lot of
23 the Bravo Company was crowded with people. Two shells landed in the
24 center of the compound. The explosions were very strong. I saw five or
25 six people laying on the ground in blood. Later, I saw the Dutch doctors
1 trying to operate a boy. I saw a woman die at the entrance of the bunker.
2 People panicked, screamed, and yelled at the Dutch for help."
3 Sir, how does this portion of Mr. Hasan Nuhanovic's statement
4 comport, if at all, with whatever the report was that you received from
5 Emir regarding the shelling of the Bravo Company compound which you
6 investigated on the 13th of July, when you returned to Srebrenica?
7 A. This compares favorably, at least it's a bit of what we were told
8 by Emir concerning the -- the shelling of that place.
9 MR. THAYER: If we may, I'd like to take a look at 5D3, please.
10 Q. Colonel, you were shown this document by, I believe, more than one
11 of my friends during their cross-examination. To keep it short, it was
12 authored by Ramiz Becirovic and describes and takes credit for several
13 acts of sabotage by the ABiH, which resulted in significant casualties to
14 Serbs. Do you recall that -- those questions on cross-examination, sir?
15 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
16 MR. THAYER: If we may look at page 2 of this document,
17 specifically paragraph 4, please.
18 Q. About midway through this paragraph, Colonel, it describes, as
19 opposed to a couple of unsuccessful infiltrations attempted by the VRS,
20 Mr. Becirovic describes a 24 June 1995 infiltration through a mine
21 corridor from the Sase lead mine. Would you please just read that portion
22 to yourself, and I want to ask you a couple questions about it.
23 A. Yeah, I've read it.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Becirovic does not take credit for this act in this
25 document, sir. I want to ask you: You were asked some questions about an
1 attack from outside the enclave, inside the enclave, which resulted in
2 some -- a death and some injuries on the 24th of June, and I believe my
3 friend Madame Fauveau showed you an UNPROFOR report concerning that
4 attack. Do you recall that, sir?
5 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
6 Q. Based on a review of this paragraph, can you tell us whether or
7 not your recollection is that this attack described herein, which
8 Mr. Becirovic attributes to the BSA, is the same incident which you
9 investigated and which was the subject matter of Madame Fauveau's
10 questions on the Dutch-Bat report?
11 A. Your Honour, it is the one, as I can see.
12 Q. I want to ask you a couple of brief questions about this debrief
13 that was conducted 24 July 1995.
14 MR. THAYER: If we may be shown 1D470, please.
15 Q. Paragraph 1 states that: "There were no trained debriefers present
16 and the meeting was held in an informal atmosphere."
17 Colonel, were you aware that the person who was interviewing you
18 was not a trained debriefer?
19 A. Yes, Your Honour, we knew he was not a trained one.
20 Q. If we look at paragraph 3, in the middle, it states that: "Where
21 possible, the exact wording has been maintained, although it has
22 been 'translated' from direct speech of a conversational nature in a
23 situation where English was not the mother tongue."
24 Does that comport with your recollection, sir, or not?
25 A. It does. It does, Your Honour.
1 Q. If we look at paragraph 1, it notes that the debrief occurred from
2 0945 to 1130 hours. How would you describe the thoroughness of this
3 debrief, sir?
4 A. Your Honour, this debrief was very basic, very basic, in that it
5 did not carry out everything. Not everything was asked, not everything
6 was given, and it was sort of ad hoc. It's like they just wanted to
7 finish with us and we go home.
8 Q. Did you have your sitreps with you during this debrief, Colonel?
9 A. No, Your Honour.
10 Q. And until today, have you ever seen this document before, sir, or
11 been given at that opportunity to review it?
12 A. Your Honour, this is the first time I'm seeing this document.
13 Q. And while we're on the topic of interviews and reports, sir, my
14 friend spent a great deal of time recounting to you the assessments of
15 others about your performance during the events of the attack on the
16 Srebrenica enclave.
17 I want to turn your attention to a couple of sections which my
18 friend didn't recite to you and ask you to respond in the same manner that
19 you were asked to respond --
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. -- to the attacks on your performance and courage.
22 Page 4 of this document reads: "The one UNMO who appears to have
23 been most active in those days after the fall was the Kenyan major,
24 J. Kingori. He could, in fact, be seen in the film images made on July
25 12th after the entry of the Serb troops and Mladic. He was also the one
1 who asked them why the men were being separated.
2 "At Franken's request, he watched the white house on July 13th to
3 check whether the number of men who were led in corresponded with the
4 number who came out. And as Dutch-Bat soldier Kerman wrote in his diary,
5 Kingori also protected continually against the brutal manner in which
6 people were packed together in the buses."
7 How does this passage comport, sir, with your recollection of
8 these events?
9 A. Your Honour, I think that is the most accurate description of what
10 we did and what I personally did in the enclave.
11 Q. If we turn to page 7 of the document, there's another passage
12 which my friend failed to cite to you; and that is:
13 "The things that Kingori now says that he has seen appear to have
14 been confirmed by other sources."
15 A. Yeah, that's correct.
16 Q. Sir, other than your sitreps and the notebook which you recently
17 reviewed, and the documents that you and I reviewed during proofing which
18 I've enumerated for my friends, what is the basis for your testimony, for
19 your recollection in court today?
20 A. Your Honour, I'm using what I know, what I did when I was there,
21 what I saw, what we discussed, and also what we sent to the UNMO
22 headquarters. This is a pure truth, as far as I can recollect.
23 Q. Now, one last question, sir. Do you recall where the former OP
24 Echo was located in the enclave; to the north, south, east, or west, sir?
25 Do you recall?
1 A. It's a difficult one. OP Echo, I really cannot -- I think it was
2 to the -- to the west, to the -- yeah, to the west, I think. I'm not very
3 sure, but I think it's to the west.
4 Q. Okay. Do you recall what you told the OTP in 1997 about any BSA
5 complaints about the Muslims' military activity within the enclave? Do
6 you recall precisely what you told the investigator at that time?
7 A. Your Honour, I can't -- I can't remember now.
8 MR. THAYER: All right. One last document, if we may, 1D351,
9 please. And if we may turn to page 4 of the English. There we go, and
10 we'll be focusing on the large paragraph about halfway down the page.
11 Q. It begins: "At one occasion ...," and in the paragraph you
12 discuss the dinner meeting you had with Colonel Vukovic. I just want to
13 read to you what this witness statement says:
14 "During all these meetings, on some occasions the BSA complained
15 about BiH strikes on the east and southeast of the enclave. During the
16 four months of my stay, I do not remember having ever heard any complaint
17 of the BSA about the fact that Serb civilians had been killed or injured
18 by the Muslims from the enclave."
19 Sir, did you make this statement to the investigators in 1997?
20 A. Yes, Your Honour, I did.
21 Q. Is it accurate?
22 A. It is accurate, Your Honour.
23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Colonel. I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We haven't got questions from the Bench,
25 which means your testimony ends here.
1 Colonel, I thank you for having come over to give -- to continue
2 and finish your testimony, and on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe
3 journey back home. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: With your indulgence, shall we leave the exhibits
6 for Monday. And the reason is I am getting concerned about the length of
7 time that we have kept the interpreters, in particular, here.
8 So thank you, Colonel. You may leave the courtroom.
9 But before we adjourn, again I wish that also what I'm going to
10 say be communicated to the Registrar and the head of the CNSS. You've
11 been extremely forthcoming and cooperative, all of you, interpreters,
12 technicians, reporters, and of course last but not least certainly
13 counsel, and the accused themselves, and the security guards. We've kept
14 you here for a long time, so I thank you all, and we appreciate all you
15 have done. We also wish you a nice weekend. Thank you.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.49 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of
18 January, 2008.