1 Monday, 9 June 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, all the accused are here.
11 Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes, Mr. Josse.
12 But I am seeing a new face in the Gvero team.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. May I introduce
14 a new member of our team. This is Ivan Zogovic, our new legal
15 consultant. It doesn't mean that Mr. Josse is leaving.
16 MR. ZOGOVIC: My name is Ivan Zogovic and I am honoured to be
17 part of the proceedings.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Could we have your name again? Because
19 I want it for the record because the interpreters missed it.
20 UNKNOWN PERSON: Ivan Zogovic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ivan Zogovic. Thank you, Mr. Zogovic. You're most
22 welcome. And we'll have the opportunity to see you working in the Gvero
23 Defence team.
24 For the Prosecution, I only notice the presence of Mr. McCloskey
1 The witness is here. Remind me after the break, because I needed
2 to say something about Pandurevic and Borovcanin motion on protective
3 measures but I wouldn't like to deal with it in the circumstances as they
4 are now.
5 So in the break, we'll deal with that before the new witness
6 actually is ushered in, okay? Thank you. Or we can deal with it
7 actually when this witness finishes and before the next one starts.
8 Yes, good morning to you, Mr. Mijatovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey will continue his cross-examination.
11 Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey and good morning to you.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President, everyone.
13 WITNESS: PERO MIJATOVIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, sir.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Were you able to think of or remember the names of the people or
19 person that helped obtain Hotel Fontana documents for you?
20 A. Mr. Brane Ilic.
21 Q. All right. And what was Brane Ilic's position at the time, do
22 you know, during the -- 1995?
23 A. I believe that he had the authorities like any other employee.
24 His position was that of a head in the absence of the director and before
25 the receivership was started and before the receiver was appointed.
1 Q. Do you know who the director of the Hotel Fontana was in July
3 A. I believe that I met him.
4 Q. And who was that, name?
5 A. I believe that I met him just once, and see, since at the time he
6 was no longer director, I did not make much effort to retain his name.
7 Q. Okay. When our investigators went there a while back, they met
8 with a person named Nedjeljko Ilic. Does that ring any bells?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How about Milena Tomic?
11 A. Nedjeljko does not ring any bells and Mrs. Tomic does.
12 Q. And what is your memory related to Ms. Tomic and this issue of
13 the Hotel Fontana?
14 A. The hotel is a very complex organisation with a number of
15 business units, not only in the territory of the municipality but even in
16 other places, and this particular lady worked for an accountant. She was
17 very helpful and she assisted us when it came to looking for these
19 Q. Did she provide you with documents? Was she actually one of the
20 people that provided you with the documents that you mentioned earlier?
21 A. Ilic was the one who personally gave the documents to me, but
22 everybody else participated in the search for them.
23 Q. So Mr. Ilic and anybody else besides Ms. Tomic and Ilic? When
24 you say "everybody," that sounds like a group.
25 A. I've already said it. The accountant, the treasurer, and the
1 person who coordinated the whole thing in a way, from the moment when we
2 entered to the moment when all the documents were photocopied and
3 whatever technical stuff had to be done with the documents. As far as
4 the procedure went and everything else, I did not need to get in touch
5 with everybody. The procedure was very fair, very professional, and
6 given the situation of the archives, I believe that they did it correctly
7 and in time.
8 Q. Okay. Now, you had mentioned that you had met with many
9 witnesses for your team and made an effort to get close to them, which is
10 normal. Did that include the next witness, Dragan Stojkic?
11 A. Just like I did with one, I did with all, all of them, over 300
12 witnesses. Given the frustration that still existed after so many years,
13 in people, in general, all these contacts were always identical, almost
14 without any differences, and the same went to the next witness,
15 Mr. Stojkic.
16 Q. And did you also meet with Zoran Acimovic, the witness after
18 A. I apologise. You're asking me how we met. What do you mean when
19 you say that? The first time? Now? When?
20 Q. I didn't -- maybe there was a translation issue. It was a much
21 simpler question than that. It was just did you meet, in your
22 investigation, Zoran Acimovic?
23 A. Yes. I saw Zoran. First I had to establish the identity of the
24 person, to see whether that was that person, not only by name, and so on
25 and so forth, and I did that with everybody, so I had a personal first
1 contact with Zoran Acimovic.
2 Q. Okay. And in the information that was provided by the Defence to
3 us, there is a brief reference to a communications logbook that the
4 communications guys had at the IKM. Are you aware of that logbook?
5 A. I heard that that book existed, the logbook from the IKM.
6 Q. Did you ever see it or see a copy of it?
7 A. There was no need for me to ask for it personally and to start
8 any proceedings that were necessary based on that particular logbook. To
9 put it simply, even without that logbook, I had ample elements to meet
10 with these persons who had been at the IKM.
11 Q. Just so I'm perfectly clear, I'm not talking about the duty
12 officer IKM logbook. I am talking about a logbook that the
13 communications guys say they had, separate from the duty officer book.
14 Is that what you're talking about?
15 A. Even if there had been such a logbook, this is the first time I
16 hear of its existence.
17 Q. So you didn't ask anyone for the communications logbook of the
18 communications officers?
19 A. I did not have such a question because I did not have any
20 foundations for that.
21 Q. All right. Now, you may have noticed in your investigation that
22 when we searched the Zvornik Brigade we didn't get daily combat reports
23 from the battalions or very many actual battalion records from the
24 Zvornik Brigade battalions. In your investigation, did you find any
25 records from the Zvornik Brigade battalions?
1 A. In my work, I did not come across any such records. Nor did I
2 touch upon that issue of a possible existence of this type of
3 documentation during my conversations and interviews.
4 Q. You mentioned, in your direct testimony, that you obtained
5 materials from Serbia. Can you give us a brief outline of the kinds of
6 materials you obtained from Serbia?
7 A. Through the MUP of Serbia, we were supposed to get in touch with
8 their organisational units, in particular regions, where we were supposed
9 to establish whether certain persons were staying there, based on the
10 information that were available to us, in order to establish personal
11 contacts with them, which means that we were supposed to establish the
12 place of residence of those people who had once resided in the territory
13 of Podrinje municipalities and as far as --
14 Q. Sir, again, it's a simple question. Can you just outline what
15 the sorts of materials you obtained from Serbia, if any? And you can
16 always explain it, but it works better if you answer the question first
17 and then explain.
18 A. Materials were obtained in the sense of the documentation about
19 persons, and as for any other documentation, we did not search or made
20 application to obtain any other documentation from any other organs of
21 the Republic of Serbia.
22 Q. So what sort of documentation about what sort of persons? Are we
23 talking Serb persons or Muslim persons?
24 A. Those were Serbs who first resided and then for various reasons
25 they moved to live and took the citizenship of Serbia or they found
1 employment and moved out with their families to the territory of Serbia.
2 Q. Okay. And before starting to work for the Popovic team, did you
3 know any of the accused in this case personally?
4 A. I knew a few of them personally, a few of the accused.
5 Q. Well, can you just tell us who you knew and how well you knew
7 A. We went to the same grammar school in Sokolac, which, in the
8 past, in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was reputed as the -- one of
9 the best schools in the republic, according to the criteria --
10 Q. Sir --
11 A. -- that's --
12 Q. -- this is again another very simple question. Can you tell
13 us -- and I don't want to go into a whole lot of detail about this. I
14 just want to know by name which accused you knew personally. Let's just
15 start with why don't you give us a list of the names of the guys you knew
16 before you worked on the case?
17 A. I knew Mr. Vinko Pandurevic.
18 Q. Okay. Who else?
19 A. I also met, on several occasions, Mr. Borovcanin.
20 Q. And?
21 A. And I also met Mr. Gvero during the war. And that's it.
22 Q. And did you work with Mr. Borovcanin in the MUP during the war?
23 A. I didn't work with him. We did work in the same ministry,
24 however, because I belonged to the -- as it was called at the time -- the
25 Sarajevo-Birac centre headquartered in Lukavica.
1 Q. And how well did you know Vinko Pandurevic?
2 A. I believe that it would be irrelevant to speak about the extent
3 of that friendship, to put it that way, because our families, our two
4 families, had multiple ties in the area. We are related. We were each
5 other's best men and godfathers. The ties are various and multiple.
6 Q. Okay. And did you know Vinko Pandurevic when he was stationed in
7 Visegrad in 1992?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. I have nothing further.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 Yes, Madam Tapuskovic?
12 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning to
13 everybody in the courtroom. I have just one question in re-examination.
14 Re-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:
15 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, my learned friend asked you about Brane Ilic. Did
16 you only meet him after the war?
17 A. That's correct, after the war.
18 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Mijatovic, the Bench doesn't have any questions
23 for you, which means that your testimony finishes here. On behalf of the
24 Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give
25 testimony, and on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe journey back home.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's deal with the exhibits.
4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we had expected
5 our list to have arrived, which was prepared for disclosure. Anyway --
6 ah, it's just arrived. We apologies for the slight delay but it's here.
7 So we tender the following exhibits, that is to say the exhibits on our
8 list be tendered into evidence, please.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, we just got the six pages of the list. And
11 we don't have any objections, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It was -- I understand that it was available also
13 before, no?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: There was something available but we would just,
15 as the custom is, to mark the many untranslated documents and wait until
16 they get translated for the final decision. Thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any objections from any of the other Defence
18 teams? None.
19 So they are also so admitted with the caveat that Mr. McCloskey
20 has just referred to, those which are still untranslated will, for the
21 time being, be marked for identification. Thank you.
22 There are some Prosecution exhibits as well. No?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. Though I would request the
24 Court request the Popovic team to turn over the documents from the Hotel
25 Fontana that were the subject of direct testimony.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I've asked the team informally and didn't
3 really get a response. I think they told me no. But I asked them on
4 Friday and I asked them again this morning.
5 This, as the Court is aware, part of this area of the law is a
6 little muddy in the Tribunal and I don't wish to get into that at this
7 point but I think what makes this particular situation stand out above
8 the law regarding materials in the possession of the Defence is that they
9 brought this up in direct testimony where the person described the kinds
10 of logs and documents that were obtained by the Hotel Fontana. This
11 isn't me probing into the Defence or finding out about the Defence, and
12 they mention that to you and I think that we are now entitled to, at the
13 very minimum, see those documents to determine if there is any relevance
14 to them. That's why I would ask that we be allowed to see those. And we
15 can provide written submissions on this issue, if necessary.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Tapuskovic.
17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
18 Popovic Defence on two occasions just prior to the Defence case did
19 disclose to the Prosecutor pursuant to Rule 67(A) documents, because we
20 considered it our duty to disclose to the Prosecution what we were going
21 to use during our Defence case. The documents which the witness
22 mentioned during his testimony are not on our 65 ter list and we have no
23 intention of using them. And so we -- none of these documents were
24 presented, so we don't see any reason to comply with the rule in this
25 particular instance.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise but
3 the interpretation wasn't correct, the last sentence. What I said was
4 that the Popovic Defence does not see anything in the Rules of Procedure
5 and Evidence to have additional disclosure because the documents were not
6 used and presented to the witness and are not on the list so we see no
7 reason for any additional disclosure.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, thank you,
9 Ms. Tapuskovic.
10 Things being what they seem to be, if you want to pursue the
11 matter, you will need to file a proper motion and then we will give the
12 opportunity to the Popovic Defence team to reply, and decide it
14 So before we bring in the next witness, the -- some time back, on
15 the 21st of May actually, the Vinko Pandurevic Defence team filed a
16 motion for protective measures in regard to two witnesses, namely Witness
17 7DW-14 and 7DW-12, who is also happens also to be witness 4DW-16. Two
18 days later, the Borovcanin Defence team through a filing joined the
19 Pandurevic motion insofar as it relates to the witness that is on both
20 lists, specifically the Borovcanin team, although joining the Pandurevic
21 Defence team, makes a submission which is different from that contained
22 in the Pandurevic motion.
23 Let me explain why. The Pandurevic motion, in their motion --
24 the Pandurevic motion in relation to Witness 7DW-14, apart from the usual
25 pseudonym, seeks also the deferred disclosure of this witness's identity
1 until 30 days before he testifies. In relation to Witness 7DW-12, who
2 was also Witness 4DW-16 there is the same request. The Borovcanin team,
3 in relation to this last witness, seeks the delayed disclosure until 30
4 days before the anticipated start of the Borovcanin Defence case. This,
5 as you see, is somewhat different from what is contained in the
6 Pandurevic motion.
7 We need first to establish whether there is agreement between the
8 Borovcanin Defence team and the Pandurevic Defence team that their common
9 witness, namely 7DW-12, who is also 4DW-16, will testify in the
10 Borovcanin Defence case, and the purpose of asking this question is to
11 ensure that the Pandurevic Defence team agrees that in that case, they
12 will conduct the examination-in-chief during this gentleman's testimony
13 in the Borovcanin Defence.
14 Do we have -- Mr. Sarapa, do you confirm that this is what will
16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, do I expect that to be the
17 case. However, if you give us some time, during the break, I'll be able
18 to tell you when I'll meet my colleagues from the Borovcanin team and
19 then we will be able to come up with a definitive answer. Thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The next -- thank you. You need to
21 make it clear that since the Borovcanin Defence case will start before
22 yours and this guy is a witness on the Borovcanin Defence list, he is
23 going to testify during that Defence case, but we are expecting that you
24 conduct your examination-in-chief when he -- when the Borovcanin Defence
25 case is being dealt with. All right?
1 The other thing is this: This raises the question as to when the
2 disclosure should take place, whether it should be delayed until 30 days
3 before he testifies or 30 days before the commencement of the Borovcanin
4 Defence case. And I'm raising this because my understanding is,
5 Mr. McCloskey, that you don't really object to either. Is that correct?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: But we can't leave it hanging like that, so in
8 other words, we need to know whether you are prepared to take a common
9 position, the Borovcanin and the Pandurevic Defence team, or whether you
10 wish to retain your separate position on this, in which case we will of
11 course decide according to what we will consider in the best interests of
13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] At all events, we won't need a
14 ruling from the Trial Chamber. We will reach an agreement during the
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
17 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] And I'm almost certain that the
18 witness will come in just once and testify as a witness for us all but
19 I'll let you know after the break.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm talking now about the disclosure, whether
21 it should be delayed one way or whether it should be delayed the other
22 way. That also, you need to discuss amongst yourselves. Let us know
23 because we need to discuss it. Later on during the second break we will
24 hand down an oral decision on this, after having heard the outcome of
25 your consultations.
1 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes. We will hold our consultations
2 during the first break and we will inform you of the results immediately
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
5 All right. So this is postponed until later.
6 Are we ready to start with the next witness?
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You're about to
11 start giving evidence, as a witness produced, brought forward, by the
12 Defence team of Colonel Vujadin Popovic. Before you give evidence,
13 you're required by our rules to make a solemn declaration equivalent to
14 an oath that in the course of your testimony, you will be speaking the
15 truth. Madam Usher is going to hand you the text. Please read it out
16 aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: DRAGAN STOJKIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself
23 You will now be asked a series of questions by Mr. Zivanovic, who
24 will introduce himself to you and then we'll see who else wishes to put
25 questions to you. Mr. Zivanovic?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojkic, we've already met but let me
4 repeat, I'm Zoran Zivanovic and in these proceedings I'm Defence counsel
5 for Vujadin Popovic.
6 First of all for the record, could you give us your first and
7 last name, please.
8 A. Dragan Stojkic.
9 Q. And tell me, please, your place and date of birth.
10 A. On the 11th of October 1960, Celopek.
11 Q. [No interpretation]. What schooling have you had?
12 A. Primary school.
13 Q. Could you tell us briefly where you worked until now?
14 A. In the footwear factory, Standard.
15 Q. Is that in Zvornik or in some other place?
16 A. Karakaj.
17 Q. Did you do your military service?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And where was that, what branch of the services?
20 A. Signalsman.
21 Q. And where were you living in 1991?
22 A. Celopek.
23 Q. Is that also Zvornik municipality?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you mobilised at all?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And where were you mobilised, to which unit, which branch of the
3 army, do you remember?
4 A. In Bijeljina, the infantry first.
5 Q. Do you remember what year that was?
6 A. 1991.
7 Q. Was that the JNA, the former army?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And how long did you serve in that JNA unit?
10 A. I was there twice, with one interruption.
11 Q. What was the interruption?
12 A. I had a disagreement with the major, Major Vasiljevic.
13 Q. [No interpretation]?
14 A. And later on I returned in 1992.
15 Q. Were you wounded ever?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. [No interpretation]?
18 A. On the 19th of May 1992.
19 Q. Did you join the army of Republika Srpska at all?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was that a consequence or were you wounded within that situation?
22 A. [No interpretation].
23 Q. And which unit were you deployed in?
24 A. Celopek, the company belonging to the Zvornik Brigade.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The answer was yes.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we need an answer from
2 the witness on line 19, or rather page 19 [as interpreted].
3 Q. Let me repeat the question. I'll repeat the question. I see
4 there are no answers to two questions. The second one is more important,
5 as far as I'm concerned. My question was this: When did that happen?
6 When were you wounded?
7 A. The 19th of May 1992.
8 Q. Thank you. And you failed to answer another question. In the
9 army of Republika Srpska, did you become a member once you had recovered
10 from your injuries?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Tell me, please, what branch of the services were you in the
14 A. I was in the infantry first and then I became a signalsman.
15 Q. And when did you become a signalsman? Do you remember?
16 A. At the beginning of 1994.
17 Q. Did you stay a signalsman until the end of the war?
18 A. Yes, and even after that.
19 Q. Can you tell me, please, in this signals unit of the Zvornik
20 Brigade, what jobs did you perform, what work?
21 A. I worked in the brigade on the IKM, the forward command post, and
22 the switchboard.
23 Q. And where was the switchboard?
24 A. You mean in the barracks?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. It was on the third floor, as you go up the stairs, it's the last
2 office to the left, or, rather, to the right, looking onto the road.
3 Q. You mentioned the IKM. Could you tell me where that forward
4 command post was?
5 A. Yes, in Kitovnice.
6 Q. And how far is that from Zvornik, roughly speaking?
7 A. Perhaps some 20 kilometres.
8 Q. Can you now tell me, please, when you did your work, while you
9 were working on the switchboard, and perhaps at the IKM at Kitovnice,
10 what equipment did you have in your work?
11 A. At the IKM, TC 10 and the RUP 12 device. And in the brigade, MG
12 100 and the in-house switchboard.
13 Q. Could you just tell us briefly, very briefly, what is this TC 10
15 A. It's a telephone switchboard, a military one.
16 Q. How about the RUP 12?
17 A. It's the radio relay device.
18 Q. Did you ever work with radio relay devices of RRU-1 or RRU-800?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What about a teleprinter?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you please tell me, when you were working at the forward
23 command post, how long would you stay there in a stretch? What was your
24 duty there? How long did your shift last at the forward command post?
25 A. Four days.
1 Q. And what were your duties, you as a signalsman? What were your
2 duties at this forward command post? What did your job entail?
3 A. Well, someone manning the TC 10, RUP 12, receiving information
4 from the battalion, I conveyed the information to the duty officer at the
5 IKM, the officer on duty at the forward command post.
6 Q. Tell me, please, in addition to you as the signalsman, who else
7 manned the IKM? Who else was there while you were working? Was there
8 anybody else who had the duty of being there with you?
9 A. You mean together with us two? There were two of us. And then
10 there was the duty officer.
11 Q. You said that it was your duty, and I assume the duty of this
12 other signalsman, was to work four-day shifts, four-day shifts up at the
13 IKM. Now, can you tell me what the duration of -- how long the shift
14 lasted for the duty officers? How long were their shifts?
15 A. 24 hours.
16 Q. And when did they start, when did one shift take over from
18 A. It was from 8.00 to 8.30.
19 Q. At the forward command post, were any records kept, any logbooks,
20 any notebooks, anything of that kind by you and the officers on duty or
21 officer on duty?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell me whether you, as signalsman, had a notebook of any
24 kind or a book in which you recorded anything, made entries, and, if so,
25 tell me straight away what you had, what kind of book you had and what
1 entries you made.
2 A. Every report from the battalion would be recorded in our book as
3 signalsman and handed -- and then we would hand it over to the officer on
5 Q. And was there a book, a notebook, some record, where the officer
6 on duty wrote in entries?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. As signalsman, did you have the right to make any entries into
9 the book kept by the officer on duty?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Another question: What was the forward command post? Was it
12 located in a house or in some other premises? What was the IKM, in fact?
13 Where was it situated?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, leading.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I'll rephrase my question.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Could you please describe the house which housed the IKM?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think he's doing it on purpose but in
22 this particular area, I'm going to be objecting to leading questions.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I rephrase my question again.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please tell us where the IKM was?
25 A. I beg your pardon?
1 Q. Can you please tell us where the IKM was?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Please describe it.
4 A. It was in Kitovnice in an a hamlet called Jerkic in a summer
5 house, in a summer cottage.
6 Q. Could you please tell me when you were on duty, there were the
7 two signalsmen and the duty officer. Did you have separate rooms where
8 you were on duty or was it one and the same room where all the three of
9 you were?
10 A. We were together, the three of them, and then some officers
11 complained they didn't want to share the sleeping premises with the
12 signalsmen so we were moved to a container, the signalsmen were.
13 Q. Does that mean that while you were on duty, the signalsmen and
14 the duty officers were in the same room?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That has to be a leading question as
16 was the previous one but I didn't object. There is no reason to be
17 asking leading questions of this witness.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, I just like to clarify his previous answer.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but you have every right to do that but you
20 can't do it by means of direct questions.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's just about sleeping in container, not about
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, yes, Mr. McCloskey? You understand -- I
24 can understand that there is a difficulty but we have to find a way
25 around it.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have a difficulty with this last comment as
2 signalling the signals officer so if we could just ask normal questions,
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please comply.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will not ask this question again. Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember the operation against Srebrenica
9 and when it was?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you please give us the month and the year?
12 A. July 1995.
13 Q. Can you please tell me whether you remember if the Zvornik
14 Brigade took part in that operation?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you personally participate in that operation?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You see, I'm not going to ask you about when you left and what
19 you did there before Srebrenica fell. This is not the subject of your
20 testimony here, but I would like to ask you whether you remember how long
21 you stayed, up to when? First of all, can you please tell me what unit
22 you were attached to when you participated in the action against
24 A. I was the brigade signalsman.
25 Q. Were you assigned to a particular unit within that brigade?
1 A. The Grbovac company, which was one signalsman short.
2 Q. I will go back to my previous question now. Can you please tell
3 me up to when you and the Grbovac company you were in remained in that
4 operation against Srebrenica up to what time you remained there?
5 A. I was there all the time. I was with the Grbovac company all the
6 time until the moment we left to Zepa.
7 Q. And do you remember when it was when you left for Zepa?
8 A. We left Srebrenica after the operation, and we went to Crna
9 Rijeka. We spent the night there in a meadow across the road from the
10 barracks, and on the following day, we went to Zepa.
11 Q. Could you please explain something? When you say that you left
12 Srebrenica after the operation, what do you mean by that? What does the
13 word "after the operation" imply? Was that when the army of Republika
14 Srpska entered Srebrenica or did some time lapse or if it did, how much
15 time lapsed from that moment until the moment you left for Crna Rijeka?
16 A. Yes. When we took Srebrenica, when we entered the town, we left
17 maybe two or three hours later, we went to a river, we took a swim there,
18 then we got on the buses and went in the direction of Crna Rijeka.
19 Q. Did I understand you well? Was it on the same day when the army
20 of Republika Srpska entered Srebrenica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How much time did it take you to get to Crna Rijeka? Did you
23 arrive there on the same day?
24 A. Yes, in the afternoon.
25 Q. Do you remember where you spent that night?
1 A. Across the road from the barracks in Crna Rijeka.
2 Q. I apologise. I see that you've already answered that.
3 And after that, after that night, where did you go and when did
4 you leave?
5 A. Early in the morning, the following morning, we went in the
6 direction of Zepa.
7 Q. Now, please tell me, where did you spend the following night?
8 How far did you reach before you had to pack in for the night?
9 A. As soon as we arrived in the territory, fighting started. We
10 pushed them to a certain point by the evening, that's where we stopped,
11 the fighting stopped, and this is where we spent that night.
12 Q. And what happened on the following morning? Did you remain
13 there? Did you keep on moving? Did you do something else?
14 A. My company received an order to withdraw towards the buses
15 together with our commander, Macapovic [phoen] because other troops were
16 on their way to replace us and I don't know who these troops were.
17 Q. And where were you supposed to go once you got on the buses?
18 A. We returned to the brigade in Zvornik.
19 Q. What was the time of day when you arrived in Zvornik?
20 A. Before the noon on that day, but I can't remember exactly when.
21 Maybe around 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning.
22 Q. What happened when you arrived in Zvornik? Did you have some
23 duties to tend to? If so, what kind of duties were those?
24 A. I immediately went to the signals office. My colleague was
25 there. He met me there. And one of the commanders, whose name I can't
1 remember, I don't know whether it was Chief Petrovic or Commander Radic,
2 that person told me to go and report to the IKM.
3 Q. Did he tell you that you were supposed to report there
4 immediately or sometime during that day or maybe the following day even?
5 A. He told me to report to the IKM. I did not see him after that.
6 I met Major Obrenovic, whom I called Obren, and I asked him, "Obren, can
7 I have two hours to go home and take a bath and to change my clothes and
8 then report to the IKM?" He said yes. And this is exactly what I did.
9 Q. Now, can you tell me when did you finally go to the IKM and where
10 from? In other words, did you go home first and did you go to the IKM
11 from there or from some other place?
12 A. I went from my house on foot from -- across Grbovac via Kitovnice
13 on foot to the IKM, on foot.
14 Q. Can you give us an estimate of the time from the moment you were
15 given approval to go home to the moment when you arrived at the IKM?
16 Could you give us that estimate or maybe can you give us roughly the time
17 when you arrived at the IKM? When was that?
18 A. I was there sometime around noon, up there.
19 Q. When you arrived at the IKM, did you find somebody there? Was
20 somebody there already?
21 A. The duty security officer, Drago Nikolic, was there and a
23 Q. Do you know the name of that signalsman who was there at the
25 A. No. That signalsman had been borrowed from one of the
1 battalions. To be more precise, it was the Birac Battalion.
2 Q. How long did you stay at the IKM on that particular occasion?
3 A. Until 8.00 in the morning on the 14th.
4 Q. You have told us that signalsmen shifts normally lasted four
5 days. Can you explain how come you only stayed for one day, from the
6 noon of the previous day to 8.00 the following morning? How do you
7 account for that?
8 A. Because I had been in the field.
9 Q. Do you remember whether, on that day, while you were there at the
10 IKM, were there any particular developments, fighting or something of the
11 sort, some special events that would have merited your attention?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you have some calls besides the normal ones from the brigade?
14 Did somebody call you from the corps or some other units outside the
15 Zvornik Brigade or some others? Did some high-ranking officers from some
16 other units call you? Do you remember any such thing?
17 A. Of course I can remember, but we did not have any such calls.
18 Q. Did you know Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic at the time?
19 A. I'd heard of him but I did not meet him.
20 Q. Do you remember if he called you during that night or anybody who
21 introduced themselves as Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic or something
22 of the sort?
23 A. If they had introduced themselves, I would have known, but since
24 there were people who wanted to be put through to Drago Nikolic directly,
25 which meant that those people knew that he was at the IKM, so I did not
1 ask them to introduce themselves, I would just put them through to Drago
2 Nikolic because that was part of my duty.
3 Q. Did anybody want to be put through to Drago Nikolic, introducing
4 themselves to you as Vujadin Popovic during that night, or during that
5 day while you were on duty?
6 A. No.
7 Q. At that time, during the day while you were on duty at the IKM,
8 did you share the room with Drago Nikolic, the duty officer at the time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember whether during that night, or during that whole
11 day, somebody visited the IKM, an officer, either from your brigade or
12 from other unit?
13 A. Nobody came.
14 Q. Do you remember whether Drago Nikolic left the IKM at any time
15 during that day or night, or, rather, while on duty on that night?
16 A. He only left when he went to tour the LPN [as interpreted].
17 That's for 15 or 20 minutes.
18 Q. Do you remember what time of day it was when that happened?
19 A. Between 1600 and 1700 hours.
20 Q. Is that a regular duty of the officer on duty at the IKM, or not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that's a regular duty, did I understand you correctly? Did
23 you say that?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, if you could clarify what an LPN is?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Could you explain to us what LPA is?
3 A. Light anti-aircraft artillery.
4 Q. So when you say he visited this LPA, was it a unit of the light
5 anti-aircraft artillery or what?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was it close to the forward command post or at what distance
8 roughly was it from the IKM, this unit which the officers on duty, doing
9 their regular rounds, had to visit?
10 A. Well, they were at about 30 metres from us, and the one section,
11 and the three-barrel section was a little further.
12 Q. You said 200 metres, did you? Because the record doesn't reflect
13 that. Did you say that they were 200 metres away, these three -- the men
14 manning the three barrels?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you tell me when you left the forward command post?
17 A. On the 14th, in the morning, with Mr. Nikolic, to the barracks,
18 at around 8.00, 8.30 at the latest.
19 Q. And just one more thing that I want to ask you. How did you
20 leave the IKM? What vehicle?
21 A. With a car.
22 Q. I'd like to ask you something else. We have received
23 information -- or rather let me ask you this, first. Do you know who
24 Major Galic is?
25 A. Yes, a neighbour.
1 Q. In July 1995, was he -- did he occupy a post in the brigade? Did
2 you know an officer at that time with that same surname of Galic?
3 A. Mihajlo Galic worked in the personnel department.
4 Q. During the time you were on duty, that day and the night that we
5 are discussing, did he come by to the IKM to replace Drago Nikolic?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And did he appear at the forward command post at all that day or
8 that night?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you stand duty at all with him ever at the forward command
12 A. No.
13 Q. I'm just going to ask you another couple of questions. When you
14 arrived after your time on duty at the IKM, and went back to the barracks
15 in the Zvornik Brigade, were you given any new assignments or tasks?
16 A. That day, I was free until 2200 hours, and from 2200 hours I took
17 up the third shift on the switchboard.
18 Q. So that was in the brigade itself, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. After that third shift, were you free? Did have you free time or
21 did you have extra duties?
22 A. I had three free days.
23 Q. From the time of your arrival in the brigade, that is to say from
24 the time you returned from the IKM, and up until the time you took your
25 three days' leave, did you have any information about any prisoners at
1 all, from Srebrenica?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you happen to see any prisoners or any buses passing by the
4 barracks at that time?
5 A. No.
6 Q. One more thing I'd like to clarify. When you returned from the
7 IKM, you were free until you took up your evening shift, right? How did
8 you spend that interim time? Did you have a rest? Did you have a sleep?
9 Or what?
10 A. Well, I slept for a bit and then we played cards for a bit,
11 watched television until the time for my shift came.
12 Q. Did anybody call you, for example, and tell you to go and stand
13 guard over some prisoners, in this interim, this free time you had before
14 you went to take up your duty and shift at the switchboard?
15 A. No.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stojkic. [In
17 English] No further questions, thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Mr. Zivanovic. We'll have the
19 break now and we'll see what the position is after that. Thank you. 25
20 minutes, please.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: So the examination-in-chief is finished.
24 Mr. Ostojic, you had asked for 15 minutes cross-examination.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, thank you. And we
1 have no questions of this witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic or Mr. Bourgon, I don't know who is --
5 you had asked for one hour.
6 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President, we do have some
7 questions for the witness.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, please. And would you kindly introduce
9 yourself to him?
10 MR. BOURGON: Will do, Mr. President and good news is we should
11 be shorter than expected with the witness.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I expected too. Thank you. In the
13 meantime, before you start so that we try and organise ourselves, the --
14 Mr. Lazarevic, will you be cross-examining this witness?
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, no, Your Honour, we are not.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And Madam Fauveau?
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic?
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this
20 witness, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Which means you will soon be cross-examining,
22 Mr. McCloskey. You had asked for two hours. How long do you anticipate?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Less than an hour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Less than an hour. All right. So the next witness
25 needs to stay here. And we'll start with him when this one finishes.
1 Mr. Bourgon, sorry for the interruption. Please go ahead.
2 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stojkic. My name is Stephane Bourgon. We have
5 had the pleasure of meeting last Friday but for the sake -- for the
6 record, I'd like to introduce myself formally as counsel representing
7 Drago Nikolic in these proceedings.
8 Firstly, let me begin by confirming with you that there are no
9 other Dragan Stojkic who was working within the communications section of
10 the Zvornik Brigade in 1995. Would that be a fair statement?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojkic, the interpreters had difficulty
13 following your statement. Could you repeat it, please? Could you repeat
14 your reply?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were three more Stojkics in
16 the communication section.
17 MR. BOURGON:
18 Q. Mr. Stojkic, in terms of those working at the forward command
19 post, was there anybody else called Dragan Stojkic who was working at the
20 forward command post of the Zvornik Brigade?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Stojkic, you mentioned a little earlier that you
23 knew who Major Galic was. I take it, then, that Major Galic also knows
24 you personally because you were neighbours; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I move on directly to the 14th of July 1995. You mentioned at
2 page 25, lines 24 to 25, that after spending your shift at the forward
3 command post, you left the IKM on the morning of 14 July; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So that would mean, then, because it's not part of the record,
7 that you were actually sent to the IKM on the 13th of July 1995?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And you mentioned earlier also that one of two persons may
10 have sent you there, either Dragisa Radic or Milisa Petrovic. Would that
11 be correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So if you were sent on to the forward command post on the 13th of
14 July, this means that you were actually pulled from the Zepa area during
15 the night of 13 July?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: That would be inconsistent with his testimony.
19 It's -- also at this point, Mr. President, these are leading questions.
20 And in this particular situation that we find ourselves in, it would be
21 best to have a short discussion outside the presence of this witness.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think, in fact I was going to suggest
23 precisely that in particular, particularly in relation to one of the
24 submissions. Does he understand English?
25 Do you understand English, Mr. Stojkic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want him out of the courtroom or just
3 remove --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: It shouldn't take long, just removing is fine.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Just remove the headphones, please.
6 Yes, Mr. McCloskey has raised two matters. One is the -- whether
7 this is leading question or not. And, secondly, whether you have
8 misrepresented in a good sense the witness's previous statement.
9 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I fail to see any problem here. I
10 am conducting cross-examination. I can put leading questions to the
11 witness and I can suggest to him what I want. I fail to see any problem
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey? He is cross-examining the
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, but he can't misstate the facts.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But does that mean that the issue of leading
17 question does no longer arise?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could alert to you the issue as I see it?
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you finished your statement or shall I --
23 MR. BOURGON: I'm ready to proceed with the witness,
24 Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. What I mean to say is about the
1 submission because Mr. McCloskey seems to have got more to say. Go
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We see this particular
4 witness, we have a brief statement of this witness from the Popovic team
5 and we see from that that he's basically was going to testify that Drago
6 Nikolic was not at the forward command post. There is really nothing he
7 has to say about Popovic. So of course we wondered is this a Popovic
8 witness truly or is this really a Nikolic witness in sheep's clothing?
9 And we don't see anything in direct that had to do with Popovic
11 Yes, we understand this is a joint criminal enterprise but what's
12 the effect of this? What's the effect if we don't have a statement from
13 the true party that's calling him as a witness, the Nikolic team, because
14 he's calling him on cross. But worse yet is that we are now seeing
15 leading questions to a friendly witness. In this Tribunal, you have a
16 right to cross-examine witnesses against you. Now, this as you know is
17 one of those issue that's being litigated now. There has been
18 interesting rulings in ICTR on it and I don't really want to get into
19 that now.
20 But the important thing for you, as the Trial Chamber, is do you
21 want to listen to leading questions of a friendly witness? In all of my
22 years in doing this, I have never found judges, nor juries for that
23 matter, that appreciated leading questions of friendly witness because
24 it's basically the lawyer testifying. In fact leading questions on
25 cross-examination is something that I'm over the years trying to convince
1 my civil law colleagues has had some reasonable place in this place. But
2 especially a witness like this, in what has happened before, I don't
3 think leading questions are appropriate in this context.
4 This is a Nikolic witness, should have been a Nikolic witness
5 from the beginning, they've done this interesting strategy. Mr. Bourgon
6 acknowledged that he met with this person on Friday. So what we see is a
7 Nikolic witness. He shouldn't be leading him. I don't think the Court
8 wants -- should want to hear leading questions of this witness. And so I
9 would ask, without having to get into all of this area of the law for you
10 to take it into your discretion to allow Mr. Bourgon to ask questions of
11 this witness but not leading, please, thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon? And then Mr. Zivanovic as well
13 because --
14 JUDGE KWON: Judge for the record, Mr. McCloskey, line 4 -- line
15 5 on previous page should be -- should read "was" instead of "was not."
16 Could you confirm that?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. It's my understanding that it's -- that
18 Drago Nikolic was at the forward command post, Galic was not.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. Bourgon. Mr. Zivanovic,
20 you've been directly involved in this debate. Do you wish to comment?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just like to remind Mr. McCloskey that we
24 challenged the testimony of the witness PW-168 and it is his allegation
25 that Mr. Nikolic had a phone call at -- sorry, at the IKM and it is the
1 reason because I took this witness as my witness. It is not any strategy
2 or anything else but just it was just this reason, and I -- we had a --
3 we have an interest to challenge as well the testimony of the witness
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Bourgon?
6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Once again I fail so see
7 any difficulties with what my colleague is saying other than the fact
8 that I really don't appreciate his suggestions that we are entering into
9 some kind of strategy business with witnesses, because we are not. We --
10 this is Mr. Zoran Zivanovic's witness and now I'm conducting
11 cross-examination. If the Court feels that my questions are too much
12 leading, I will suffer the consequences myself when the weight will be
13 assessed by the Judges.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. And that's exactly the position that we
15 take. You've just summarised it in one short sentence. So, please
16 proceed with your questions.
17 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait. All right. He's got the headphones on now.
19 MR. BOURGON:
20 Q. Mr. Stojkic, we will continue with this cross-examination. The
21 question I was asking of you is that you mentioned in response to a
22 question, on page 25, lines 24 to 25, that you left the forward command
23 post, the IKM, the morning of the 14th of July; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So you were sent to the IKM the morning of the 13th July; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And can we understand from this that you were immediately prior,
4 the night prior, that's when you were pulled out from Zepa, along with
5 your company, and I believe you mentioned the Grbovac company; is that
7 A. On the 13th, in the morning, we were pulled out.
8 Q. Now, the question I have for you, Mr. Stojkic, is that other
9 witnesses have testified in this case to the fact that the Zvornik
10 Brigade component that was sent to Zepa was actually pulled back on the
11 15 of July, so I'd like to know if you can explain how you can be so sure
12 that you were pulled out on the 13th of July along with your company.
13 A. I'm sure because I went with my company commander, and as for the
14 rest of the brigade, I wouldn't know.
15 Q. I move on then to the 13th of July when you actually were sent to
16 the IKM and I refer you to page 24, lines 17 to 18. Now, don't be scared
17 about those pages. This is just to alert my colleague to where I'm
18 referring him to one of your previous responses. So on the 13th of July
19 you mentioned that you were at the Standard barracks between 9.00 and
20 10.00 in the morning, is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you actually see Major Obrenovic at that time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you explain to us Mr. Stojkic, how is it that you can call
25 Major Obrenovic who was chief of staff of the Zvornik Brigade, how come
1 you called him Obren, as you say?
2 A. Because we were really on very good terms.
3 Q. And on that day it is Major Obrenovic who allowed you to go home
4 to take a bath for a couple of hours upon your request, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you also mentioned earlier that you went to your house which
7 is in Celopek and that you walked to the IKM by foot. What's the
8 distance approximately between your house and Celopek in the IKM?
9 A. Across the hill, across Grbovac maybe 12 kilometers.
10 Q. So you walked all that distance by foot to go to the IKM?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You mentioned that when arrived at the IKM - correct me if I'm
13 wrong - there appears to have been two persons present there. One was
14 Drago Nikolic, is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Ane the other person was a communicator and it appears you don't
17 remember the name but you mention Birac battalion. Can you tell us
18 anything else about this second person?
19 A. I only know that he had been borrowed from a battalion to assist
20 temporarily because there were not enough of our brigade signalsmen. We
21 had been in the field.
22 Q. Now if I tried to locate this man, can you give us any
23 information about him?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. On page 21, lines 10 to 11, you mentioned that there was some
1 kind of a container where communicators would sleep at times. My
2 question is: Was that container in use on 13 July and did you sleep
3 there that night?
4 A. That night we did not sleep in the container because Mr. Nikolic
5 never objected to another person, i.e., a signalsman, sharing the same
6 room with him for the night.
7 Q. You mentioned on page 27, lines 15 to 16, that Drago Nikolic left
8 to the LPN, and you explained that to us, that this was the air defence
9 artillery or something like that. Or LPA or LPN? What would that be?
10 A. LPA.
11 Q. LPA. Thank you.
12 Now, are you familiar with the fact that close to the IKM there
13 was some kind of an observation trench? Are you familiar with that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did Drago Nikolic go to that observation trench during that
16 day, to your knowledge.
17 A. I know only about the LPA. A trench was near that, so it is
18 possible that he went to the trench.
19 [Technical difficulty]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Let's proceed. It seems to be
21 working fine now.
22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for your patience.
24 MR. BOURGON:
25 Q. Mr. Stojkic, we will continue with my questions. Can you confirm
1 that during the period you were at the forward command post, from the
2 13th of July until the 14th in the morning, that Drago Nikolic did not
3 leave the IKM? Is that your testimony?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is there any possibility, for instance, that you were sleeping
6 and Drago Nikolic could have left the IKM without you knowing?
7 A. That night I did not sleep at all because I was on duty.
8 [Technical difficulty]
9 Q. Mr. Stojkic, do you know a family by the name Jerkic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us who this family is?
12 A. That's the family which gave -- which was next to our IKM.
13 Actually their house was next to the house where our IKM was so we would
14 see them every day.
15 Q. Was there any special relationship that developed between this
16 family and the people working at the IKM?
17 A. No, but we were really very, very good friends.
18 Q. When we met on Friday, you told me that this -- that Milka Jerkic
19 and her son would bring you cheese, coffee and other goods. Is that what
20 you mean by saying that you were good friends?
21 A. Yes. That was it, by and large.
22 Q. Do you recall if anyone from that family came to the IKM on the
23 13th of July?
24 A. Yes. The young Mica, Milka's son, came.
25 Q. And what was the purpose of his visit, if you remember?
1 A. He was a young lad and he would always hang out with us.
2 Q. Now, you already responded to this question earlier but can you
3 confirm that during that period you were at the IKM from the 13th to the
4 14th, there were no other visitors there during that time frame; is that
6 A. That's correct, nobody came.
7 Q. And just to end this topic about the Jerkic family, is it
8 possible that a duty officer working at the IKM would not know who the
9 Jerkic family is?
10 A. Impossible.
11 Q. Now, on page 26 at lines 20 to 24, you mentioned that those who
12 would call would know that Drago Nikolic was on duty and that they would
13 ask for him. My question is: Did these people identify themselves when
14 they would call?
15 A. They would only introduce themselves if they knew who the duty
16 officer at the IKM was.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter may not have gotten the answer
18 correctly. Could the witness please repeat?
19 MR. BOURGON:
20 Q. Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Stojkic? The interpreter might
21 not have understood all of it. Maybe you could get closer to the
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have identified the problem. Madam
24 Usher has already asked him to move nearer to the microphone.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the
1 question, then?
2 MR. BOURGON:
3 Q. Yes. The question is, if I go back to the exact question which
4 was a little earlier on that page, did the people who called at the
5 forward command post identify themselves when they called?
6 A. According to the rules, they should have introduced themselves.
7 Q. And to your memory, did Drago Nikolic have a conversation that
8 day with the Chief of Staff of the Zvornik Brigade, Major Obrenovic?
9 A. I can't answer that.
10 Q. And if -- or let me say that in a different way.
11 When Drago Nikolic was on the phone at the IKM, would you hear
12 the content of any conversations he would have?
13 A. The contents?
14 Q. Did you hear him? Did you hear the conversations?
15 A. The duty officers, when they were on the phone, normally asked --
16 the signalsman would leave and step out on to the terrace.
17 Q. Would that be for every conversation or...
18 A. Well, we simply did not want to disturb them while they were
20 Q. And just to -- if there was a conversation between Drago Nikolic
21 and another officer, or Major Obrenovic, talking about the arrival of
22 prisoners and the killing of prisoners, would you remember that kind of
23 conversation, if you had heard it?
24 A. Of course I would remember.
25 Q. And do you remember hearing any such conversations?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And do you remember ever leaving outside on the terrace while
3 Drago Nikolic was having any conversations that day?
4 A. I don't know how many times he actually used the telephone while
5 on duty. Maybe once or twice perhaps.
6 Q. And did you go outside for these conversations or did you stay
7 inside? To the best of your memory.
8 A. I stayed in. We were playing cards. And the cards were on the
9 table. His conversations were really short and as soon as he put down
10 the telephone, we continued playing.
11 Q. When you left the IKM on the 14th in the morning, what happened
12 to the other communicator, the man from the Birac Battalion?
13 A. He stayed on, but somebody else came to help him later on.
14 Q. And do you know who came later on to replace you?
15 A. Of the four of us who were regularly there at the IKM, I'm not
16 sure but it could have been only Zoran Acimovic, Dragisa Savic or Jovo
17 Bogdanovic, one of the three.
18 Q. And do you know who replaced Drago Nikolic on the 14th of July?
19 A. One of his colleagues from the security, I believe. But I'm not
20 sure whether it was Trbic maybe.
21 Q. When you arrive at the barracks on that day, on the 14th of July,
22 you responded earlier that you played cards until you took up that night
23 shift and you mentioned the third night shift. What time did you
24 actually begin the night shift at the Zvornik Brigade that evening?
25 A. We did not play cards all the time. I took a little nap, and my
1 shift started at 22 hours.
2 Q. And what actually did you do during that shift? What were your
3 responsibilities at Standard? What kind of shift was that and what did
4 you do?
5 A. It was just like any other shift when you work at switchboard.
6 Q. What's your duties? What do you do at the switchboard?
7 A. Well, whatever calls you receive, and there are persons asking
8 for an officer, you would put them through. That's what we did. Just
9 connecting people.
10 Q. I'd like to show you now, Mr. Stojkic, an exhibit. That is P347.
11 And we referred to that exhibit before. That is the duty officer logbook
12 at the IKM. If I can ask my colleague to maybe give the original to the
13 witness, we have made arrangements for that. That's P347. And if I can
14 have on the -- on e-court, the English page 6 of that book.
15 Do you have the -- yes. If you can give the witness the book and
16 if you can open the book on page, in the original should be page 8 and
17 where there is an entry for 13th of July 1995. The top of the page is
18 275. My first question, Mr. Stojkic, is that the book you have in your
19 hands, are you familiar with that book? Can you tell us what this is, to
20 the best of your recollection?
21 A. This is the logbook which was kept by the duty officer at the
23 Q. Did you have access to this book and did you write anything in
24 this book?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I'd like you to look at the entry where it says, at the left side
2 of the page, entry number 8, for 13 July. I will read the entry in
3 English and you can read it in the original in your own language. Where
4 it says, "I took over duty on schedule from Lieutenant Drago Nikolic at
5 2300 hours." Bearing in mind your response to my colleague earlier, what
6 do you make of this entry in the book, Mr. Stojkic?
7 A. This is not true.
8 Q. I refer you now, down on the same page, on the 14th of July 1995,
9 and I'd like to read the second paragraph, and you can look in your own
10 language, where it says, "Enemy forces are very active over the
11 communication lines and are preparing to attack our forces." Do you see
12 this paragraph in the original book in your own language?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. My question, based on this paragraph, is: Is this the kind of
15 information which could be obtained by the duty officer at the IKM?
16 A. Well, one thing that should read here is who he received the
17 information from. And there is no way he could have learned that at the
18 IKM, as far as the equipment at the IKM is concerned.
19 Q. Can you explain that a little more for the benefit of the Trial
20 Chamber? Why is it that based on the equipment at the IKM, he cannot
21 obtain this kind of information?
22 A. If this was communicated from the brigade command, then it should
23 be noted here who it was who sent that message to the IKM. And since
24 there is no interception centre at the IKM, there is no way he could have
25 obtained this information over there.
1 Q. When you were working at the IKM where did you get information
2 from and what did you do with that information?
3 A. Every information that we received from the battalion, or from
4 the brigade command, we would enter into our daily notebook of the duty
5 signalsman on duty and then we would hand that over to the office at the
6 IKM. Now, what he wrote in his logbook on the basis of our notebook I
7 really can't say.
8 Q. And what kind of information would the battalions give to you?
9 What were you looking for?
10 A. At 1600 hours, we would carry a checkout, as to the situation in
11 the battalion, whether they went into action, whether there were any
12 killed or wounded or things like that and then we would hand that over
13 first of all to the officer on duty at the forward command post and when
14 we had collected all the information up from all the battalions, we would
15 send it to the head office, to the brigade and the signalsman on duty who
16 would then take it to the officer on duty who was the commander of the
18 Q. Okay. I understand. Let me just clarify a few parts of the
19 answer you just gave.
20 Would I be right to say then that the information would be
21 collected at the IKM and transmitted to the brigade? Would that be
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when you called the brigade, yourself, in order to -- did you
25 speak to the duty officer yourself?
1 A. You mean the operative?
2 Q. Yes, did you speak to the operations duty officer at the brigade
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. The witness has said this material
6 got reported to the duty officer at the IKM and now Mr. Bourgon is
7 switching that to the duty officer at the brigade.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
9 MR. BOURGON: Once again, I'm not going to say anything but my
10 colleague, but his objection is ill founded. If you read, Mr. President,
11 the answer of the witness, and I read from page 7 now, line 17 to 23,
12 this is not what the witness said. So my colleague is not -- his
13 objection is not founded, and I'm actually trying to clarify this and
14 where he says that it was then taken to the officer on duty who was the
15 commander of the brigade, that was my next question now, to clarify what
16 the witness meant by that. If I can just freeze.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. Please answer the question,
18 Mr. Stojkic.
19 MR. BOURGON:
20 Q. So Mr. Stojkic, when this information, as you say, had been
21 collected from all the battalions, you mention we would send it to the
22 head office, to the brigade, and the signalsman on duty. That was your
23 answer. I just wanted to know, did you yourself speak to the duty
24 officer at the brigade or did you speak only to the signalsman on duty
1 A. Only to the duty signalsman.
2 Q. And when you say that it would then -- he would then take it to
3 the officer on duty, who was the commander of the brigade, were those --
4 is that what you said or do you wish to clarify this?
5 A. The signalsman at the switchboard would write this report of ours
6 from the IKM and then take it to the duty operative and then the duty
7 operative would take it to the commander of the brigade or the head.
8 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you another entry. But this time in
9 a different exhibit. And that is at the notebook of the brigade
10 operations duty officer, that is P377. Now I would also ask if we could
11 show the witness the original book, please. And if I can have in English
12 on e-court, page 13? The page I would like to show the witness in the
13 original book is ERN 5737.
14 So, Mr. Stojkic, I'm sorry, the page I'd like you to look at, if
15 you'd look at the top of the original, is 5748. And in e-court, it is
16 English page 24. Do you have the original book with page 5748?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On e-court, we do not have that. We have 5790. And I was
19 looking for 5748. According to my records, it should be English page 24.
20 If I can have e-court in English, please? We have the B/C/S on the
21 e-court. Okay.
22 Which page do you now have, Mr. Stojkic, before you in your
23 language, in the original book, at the top?
24 A. 0293578.
25 Q. Just for the record, the witness did say 5748 but the 4 is
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The important thing is that we have got the
3 right document.
4 MR. BOURGON: So the witness has the right page before him. Now
5 we are just looking for the page in English and it should be 377, page 24
6 in English. Well, I have the B/C/S here.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We have the English. I just want to make sure that
8 it is the right one.
9 MR. BOURGON: Okay.
10 Q. If you can look, Mr. Stojkic, at the top of that page, can you
11 read the entry there, even though it's handwritten and might be difficult
12 to read, can you tell us what it says at the top of the page there?
13 5748, right at the top.
14 A. "The security person of the IKM, behind the back of Krizanic
15 there is shooting, Potocari, individual shooting" I can't understand what
16 it says here.
17 Q. And what do you make, Mr. Stojkic, of that entry where it says
18 "the security person at the IKM"? What does that mean to you?
19 A. That he was on duty at the IKM.
20 Q. Who is that?
21 A. From security. It could be Trbic, Petkovic, possibly Nikolic was
22 sent back. Had there been somebody else, it would say duty officer, not
23 bezbednjak [phoen], security person.
24 Q. So is there any possibility that on that day, that this was Galic
25 who was at the IKM at that time?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That is superspeculative.
3 MR. BOURGON: Once again, Mr. President, I fail to see the
4 purpose of the objection. The witness can answer that.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are fine with the question. But the witness
7 must, of course, know and make sure that in answering it, he doesn't
8 speculate. He either knows or he doesn't.
9 MR. BOURGON:
10 Q. I'll say the question over again, Mr. Stojkic. You mentioned
11 that this had to be a security person. Was Mr. Galic a security person?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned in response to a question by my colleague that
14 Galic was never on duty at the IKM while you were there; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you saw -- did you ever see Galic at the IKM?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And can you explain to the Court when that was and in what
20 A. I would see Galic at the forward command post when the
21 higher-ranking officers would come by. He was escorting them.
22 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Stojkic, having a conversation with Galic
23 about the fact that whether or not he was at the IKM on the 13th of July?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you explain when that conversation took place, to the best of
1 your knowledge, and what happened on that occasion?
2 A. Near my house, there is a car wash service. And that's where we
3 met. He started the conversation for the 13th of July 1995, and he was
4 convincing me, how come I didn't remember that we had spent the duty
5 hours together.
6 Q. And what was your answer to that question? Or what happened
7 during that conversation?
8 A. I told him, "I'm sorry, you're an older man but you're lying."
9 Q. I just have a few more questions, Mr. Stojkic, concerning the --
10 some technical questions about the duty at the IKM. Can you explain for
11 the benefit of the Trial Chamber the exact procedure when you would call
12 either -- well, let's begin with the brigade command. When you call the
13 brigade command, how do you do it? How does that take place?
14 A. I just dial the number of the switchboard and get through to
16 Q. And who answers at the brigade?
17 A. The telephonist manning the switchboard who is on duty at the
19 Q. And is it possible to bypass the switchboard and call directly to
20 the duty officer, for example?
21 A. We always had to go through the switchboard.
22 Q. And if you wanted to call a battalion from the IKM, how would
23 that take place?
24 A. The same thing: Through the switchboard in the barracks.
25 Q. And what would the switchboard in the barracks do if you wanted
1 to speak, for example, to 4 Battalion?
2 A. It would link us up to the IKM, establish communication.
3 Q. Now, what about the duty officer? Could he call the IKM? I'm
4 talking about the brigade operative duty officer. Could he call the IKM?
5 A. The duty officer at the IKM? Is that what you mean? To call up
6 the brigade commander, is that what you're asking?
7 Q. I'll make that clear. I'm sorry, my question was not clear
8 enough. If the brigade operative duty officer, at the brigade command,
9 can he call the forward command post?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How does he do it?
12 A. The same thing, via the switchboard.
13 Q. Now, we mentioned a little earlier the existence of a trench
14 close to the IKM. Can you tell us where exactly this trench was?
16 A. The trench was, looking at it from the forward command post,
17 where the three-barrel pieces were, well, to the right.
18 Q. What was the purpose, if you know, of this trench?
19 A. It was an observation post for the high-ranking officers when
20 they came to visit and tour the area. So that they could supervise the
21 line, have a view of the line.
22 Q. And to your recollection, was there a field phone between the
23 trench and the IKM itself?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. So if there was a senior officer present at the -- in the trench,
1 he could speak to the IKM? Is that correct?
2 A. Yes. Before their arrival, one of us signalsman would go and
3 establish contact with the forward command post so that it was already
5 Q. Now, you mentioned that there was also a -- correct me if I'm
6 wrong -- an RUP 12 radio at the IKM; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you use that a lot, that radio?
9 A. Rarely.
10 Q. When would you use the radio?
11 A. We would only use the radio if the line communication was down,
12 or wire communication.
13 Q. Now, using that -- your normal means of communication with the
14 brigade command or the battalions, I take it, then, would be the field
15 phone or the inductor line, as you might call them; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And do you recall if codes were used at all when you spoke on
18 that telephone?
19 A. I did not have an opportunity to do that.
20 Q. Do you know if anybody else had an opportunity? Was that a
21 procedure that was used when somebody at the forward command post would
22 speak to somebody at the brigade command, were codes used in any way?
23 A. Codes were never used from the forward command post to the
24 brigade command, while I was on duty. I can't speak for my other
25 colleagues. I don't know.
1 Q. If I look at the duty officers who were present at the IKM or
2 those who did regular shifts, to the best of your recollections, who were
3 those officers?
4 A. Drago Nikolic, Milorad Trbic, Sreten Milosevic, Mijo
5 Dragutinovic. Dragan Jokic.
6 Q. And did you develop any relationship with any of these officers?
7 If you recall.
8 A. Well, I was on good terms with all of them.
9 MR. BOURGON: If I could have a quick minute, Mr. President, I
10 would just like to check my notes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means, Mr. Bourgon.
12 MR. BOURGON: Just two questions more, Mr. President, and I'll be
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
15 MR. BOURGON:
16 Q. The first question, Mr. Stojkic is regarding the book you
17 referred to, talking about not the duty officer's book at the IKM but the
18 book that was -- the one that you were responsible for or the
19 communicator's book. Did you ever see this book again after July 1995?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall when the IKM was -- until when the IKM was
23 A. As far as I know, after the Muslims passed through, the IKM was
24 closed two or three months later, was shut down two or three months
1 Q. And I would just like you to show you one more entry in the book
2 that you have before you now, that is 377. I would just like to show you
3 one further entry, and the top of the page would be 5741. In English, it
4 is page 17 for e-court, please.
5 Do you have this page, Mr. Stojkic, with 5741? And I refer
6 you -- there appears to be a name written there in block letters, name is
7 Jerkic. I refer you to the entry just above that. Can you tell us what
8 this entry reads?
9 A. You mean the square there? The rectangle.
10 Q. Not the square. Just to the left where it starts with 16 dot or
11 dash 0.
12 A. "Two states regular, Palma 2, situation regular.
13 Q. Okay. That's the entry?
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, they don't have the
15 English once again.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So that was checking out the
17 battalion or rather the battalion checking out so see that there was no
18 activity going on and that everything was regular, that the situation was
20 MR. BOURGON:
21 Q. So considering that this is the brigade duty operative officer,
22 making this observation, where would this information come from?
23 A. Well, it comes from the IKM.
24 Q. How do you know that? How do you know that?
25 A. Well, we from the IKM sent it to the brigade, so it was conveyed
1 by the duty officer to the brigade commander.
2 Q. Now, I just want to know because it doesn't say anything about
3 IKM here. It says "16, Palma 2, situation normal." How do you know it's
4 from the IKM?
5 A. Because we were Palma 2. The IKM, that's what it was called,
6 Palma 2.
7 Q. And if we look at the top of that page, I'm not sure you have it
8 in the original, but I'll simply suggest to you that this is -- took
9 place at 13 -- on the 13th of July, and if you take this entry on the
10 13th of July, who sent that information to the brigade command, to your
12 A. The signalsman on duty at the IKM handed over the report to the
13 officer on duty at the IKM, and when he transcribed it into his duty book
14 or logbook, then he says, "Report that to the command that the situation
15 is normal." If there is anything that is not, then that is recorded.
16 Q. And finally, in terms of the qualifications that you had as a
17 signalman, who were the best trained signalmen in the brigade, were those
18 working at the brigade or those working at the battalions?
19 A. Well, the brigade signalsmen were better trained than the
20 battalion signalsmen. They were privy to more functions and they were
21 more familiar with a higher number of different pieces of equipment.
22 Q. Did you yourself, Mr. Stojkic, in more -- especially in 1995, but
23 at any time during the war, did you ever have any disciplinary or legal
24 proceedings instituted against you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And if I suggest to you that you were a good communicator and a
2 good soldier, always on time, would that correspond to what you were in
3 July of 1995?
4 A. Of course, I was a good soldier, never late, always -- everything
5 on time.
6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much. I have no further questions,
7 Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. Stojkic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Mr. McCloskey? Unless you
11 prefer to have the break now. I mean it's up to you.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can go for what, 15 minutes?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think -- I hope I should finish this witness by
15 the end of the day.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Then shall we send the other witness home?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I didn't think I would get put on the spot like
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I can imagine how uncomfortable people feel when
20 they are left waiting in a room in this environment with no proper air
21 circulation for long hours. Go ahead. Go ahead.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
23 Q. Good afternoon, sir. First I want to show you a document, it's
24 65 ter 318. This is a document that's in evidence. And it will come up
25 on your screen in B/C/S. This is a document that's called the
1 establishment of tactical group, the 1st Zvornik Brigade for carrying out
2 active combat operations in the Drina Corps. Preparation order.
3 And we want to go down to the section --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. As far as I see, this
6 document is not on the list of documents disclosed to us before
8 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a revised list, and I think it is on --
9 yeah. Can you confirm that, Mr. McCloskey?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's on the revised list. It's a result of his
11 testimony that I'm responding to the testimony.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I didn't he see the revised list, sorry.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. So we want to go down in the B/C/S to the section on 2.1, and
16 2.1b, just as a brief description of communications squad and it says,
17 "Four soldiers signalmen from the communications company." Do you see
18 that there and --
19 A. There are none here.
20 Q. Well, go to 2.1b. And it's not a list of names, it just says,
21 "Four soldiers, signalsmen from the communications company"?
22 A. Yes, that's there.
23 Q. Does that fit your recollection, was there four signalsmen that
24 were originally assigned to go down to Srebrenica with this tactical
1 A. If I could see the names? That would jog my memory, certainly.
2 Q. Okay. Well, so you don't remember?
3 A. I remember some names but I'm not sure that I would be able to
4 guess all of them.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Bourgon?
6 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I would just like, this is not the
7 type of document that would have been accessible to this witness so at
8 least my colleague should lay the context and ask a question as to what
9 he means by what communication resources were sent to the Srebrenica
10 operation. I have no problems with that. But this document is not a
11 document that would have been accessible to this soldier at his level.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All I asked him was does he remember if it was
15 four soldiers and I helped him show the document. He says he can't
16 remember, his memory is not very good.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go. Let's proceed. Thank you.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. Now, let's see if we can help your memory. Let's go to 65 ter
20 3396. And let me give you a hard copy, apparently this electronic
21 version that we have doesn't come up very well and if we could put that
22 on the ELMO.
23 And we can -- if we start, we see that commander Vinko
24 Pandurevic, deputy commander, Milan Jolovic, is that correct, that
25 information so far, from your memory?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go down to the communications squad which is the
3 last third of the page. There we go. It says squad commander, private
4 Goran Lakic, and then there is four radio operators, a communications
5 equipment technician, and a radio operator. And we see Dragan Stojkic on
6 that. Are you the Dragan Stojkic that we see on this document?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Are those the communication guys you went to Srebrenica with?
9 A. Miroslav Timko, Grozdan Savic and Slavisa Jeremic and down there
10 is Yugoslav and as for Trsunovic, I'm not sure.
11 Q. And did you go to the Zepa operation with them as well?
12 A. Yes, that's the same team.
13 Q. You said you spent the night at -- near Crna Rijeka, when you
14 went towards Zepa. What did you do the next morning at the Crna Rijeka
16 A. Well, we were equipped, and we set out for Zepa.
17 Q. Can you -- can you tell us -- this is a historic event. Can you
18 tell us as much as you can remember about it?
19 A. Well, nothing. We went on foot towards Zepa. At the moment when
20 we arrived, close to their lines, we were deployed and embarked on taking
21 the territory from them up to that evening, and that evening we stopped
22 at the point that was the furthest into the area that we managed to take
23 by then from them. That's all I can tell you.
24 Q. Were you in a combat unit?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Up at the front line?
2 A. Yes. That was the front line.
3 Q. Can you describe the action, if any? Was there shooting?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what unit were you with besides your communication person?
6 Who else was there?
7 A. I was not with my colleagues. That company was short of
8 signalsmen, so I was in Grbovac company but we were in contact.
9 Q. So this was the Zvornik Brigade company you're talking about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who was it commanded by that day, the Zvornik Brigade forces?
12 A. Commander Vinko Pandurevic.
13 Q. Did you see him up there on the front lines with you, taking part
14 in the action?
15 A. When we were deployed in the direction of Zepa was the last when
16 I saw him. I didn't see him after that.
17 Q. Where did you see him when you were going towards Zepa, fighting
18 the Muslims?
19 A. When we passed Crna Rijeka, maybe a few kilometres after that,
20 and from then on, I never saw him again.
21 Q. Was this in the action or was this in the transportation? I
22 can't tell from what you meant.
23 A. No, no, no. The action itself had not started yet at that time.
24 Q. So you saw him on -- in somewhere near Crna Rijeka before the
25 action that started the next morning?
1 A. Not the following morning but that morning.
2 Q. So did you see Vinko Pandurevic the day before the combat started
3 or the day the combat started in Zepa?
4 A. Both the day before and on the day.
5 Q. Okay. You think it's possible you got your dates mixed up a
6 little bit?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Where did you get the 13th from? How do you know it was the
9 13th? This was almost 13 years ago.
10 A. Well, I remember it well. We took Srebrenica on the 11th. On
11 the 12th we went to Crna Rijeka. And -- actually on the 11th we were in
12 Crna Rijeka in the evening. On the 12th we set out and my company
13 returned on the 13th in the morning.
14 Q. Okay. Let's --
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, it might be a good time to take a break but
16 not much longer, Mr. President. I won't have too much more.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break now for 25 minutes. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. All right. Sir, we have a note or a summary from the Defence
23 that tells us that you said that you were quite certain that Mihajlo
24 Galic had never been a duty officer at the IKM. Do you stand by that?
25 A. Not on my shift. Never.
1 Q. Okay. Well, did you hear that he was a duty officer on other
3 A. No, none of my colleagues ever told me that, nor did I inquire
4 about who the duty officers were actually.
5 Q. So you don't really know -- you can't really tell us reliably
6 whether he was or was not a duty officer at sometimes at the IKM in July
7 and August of 1995?
8 A. As I have told you, not on my shift. And I really wouldn't be
9 able to speak for any of the other colleagues. I don't know.
10 Q. Okay. Now, were you given a chance to review the duty officer
11 forward command notebook prior to giving your account that you were there
12 on the 13th of July?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go through that just briefly to see if it can help
15 us with this issue. It is 65 ter 935, and we will give you that original
16 book again. And we should start --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Mr. Bourgon?
18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. It's just we have a
19 different number from the one I used. I thought that was a P number and
20 now we are using a 65 ter number. Is that an introduced exhibit or a new
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's our 65 ter number. It's the number of --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Same number?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Same number, same book. There is a revised
25 translation. And the B/C/S is -- well, page 130 and the English is page
2 Q. But if you could, for the book you have, go to what is the ERN
3 last four numbers are 0275 and take him to that ERN number.
4 And we will just wait for the English to come up, and if we
5 can -- B/C/S page 8 for others but if we could bring that up so we see
6 the 13th and the 14th, we can -- okay.
7 This is what you've already looked at that you said was not true.
8 So -- but we can see that Mr. Galic's name is written there on the 13th.
9 And then if we go to the 15th, the next page for both, we can see that,
10 again, in Cyrillic, it's written, well, the English isn't up there yet
11 and I apologise, the English translation has got its -- oh, the actual
12 where the lines are -- there is a slight mix-up.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to have the original put on the ELMO,
14 we can do that.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we are okay. But you may notice that
16 there are some things about the English translation that don't match
17 precisely the original and that's something that we'll work on so it
18 matches a better mirror image of it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: But on e-court, we have -- I don't know where the
20 difference is. I don't know. Anyway --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We are okay so far, the difference changes a bit.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed then.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Okay. We see there again, Major Galic is written, and then we
25 see a signature. Do you recognise that signature, that sort of vertical
1 signature, as saying "Mihajlo Galic"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Well, then let's keep going. Let's go to the next page.
4 It's 0277 in your book. I think you just switch it over for -- now we
5 switch to 22 July. And English should be ERN 2682. Yeah.
6 Okay. And again, in the -- in the far right, we see printed,
7 "Major Mihajlo Galic" and then his signature for 22 July; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So do you recall if you were there on 22 July?
10 A. Don't remember.
11 Q. And we can see that he -- the times start off, I believe, it's
12 0900, works its way through the afternoon, and then ends at 0730 which
13 would be or should be the next day, on the 23rd, so he would have spent
14 the night if that's correct, isn't that right?
15 A. That's how it says here.
16 Q. Do you recognise Mr. Galic's signature on this page?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you recognise Drago Nikolic's signature, do you think?
19 A. I believe I could, but I'm not sure.
20 Q. Okay. Well, let's go to the next section. It should be, the
21 B/C/S, 00760298. So do you see that 0298? Can you go to that? And the
22 English is 00962704, what I've got. B/C/S page 31. Okay. We've got it
23 up on -- on the board. And again, can you help us with this? It says,
24 "26 August" this name that's written vertically again, is that printed
25 "Mihajlo Galic" and then signed? English page 29.
1 A. You mean 0289? Is that the page that you're referring me to?
2 Q. It's --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: He said, at least the interpretation said 289. I
4 think it should be 298. So it's either a mistake in interpretation or
5 he's got the wrong document.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, yeah, it's 0298.
7 Q. She'll help you with that. So is that -- is that printed out
8 "Mihajlo Galic" and then his signature next to it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you doubt these two entries that I've just gone over in this
11 IKM book?
12 A. In a handwritten form, yes. Before it was in block letters and
13 now these are miniscule, yeah.
14 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that these entries are genuine,
15 these two entries that we've just gone over?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon?
17 MR. BOURGON: That's also speculation. Either he knows or he
18 doesn't know. Was he there on those days? Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't agree with you at all. Do answer the
20 question, please, if you can.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not able to remember, I'm
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Acimovic, who you've said was a signalsman,
25 when do you recall him being around in relation to when you were around
1 at the IKM after getting back from Zepa?
2 A. Acimovic?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. It was later on, once I'd already left, but I wouldn't be able to
5 give you the date when I went to the IKM again. Can't remember that.
6 Q. Well, you've told us once you got back from Zepa, you went to the
7 IKM, you spent the night there, and then you came back to Standard.
8 During that period that you were at the IKM, did you see Mr. Acimovic,
9 the signals guy?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Could he have been the other person that was with you on duty
12 after you got back from Zepa?
13 A. No. I said that a signalsman from the battalion had been hired
14 for that.
15 Q. Have you talked to Mr. Acimovic at any time in the last couple of
16 months about this?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you seen him since being in The Hague?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you talked to him?
21 A. Nothing about this.
22 Q. Before coming to The Hague, did you talk to him about anything?
23 A. We did not even see each other.
24 Q. Did you travel to The Hague together?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Now, while you were at the forward command post, did a vehicle
2 from the headquarters come by?
3 A. I did not see any.
4 Q. What kind of car was Drago Nikolic usually in in those days, in
5 July? What was he normally transporting -- transported in?
6 A. There were several cars that were -- well, whichever was free.
7 We would take that one and go to the IKM.
8 Q. I'm talking about not you but Drago Nikolic, the chief of
9 security of the Zvornik Brigade. Didn't they have a vehicle he usually
10 drove around in?
11 A. I don't know about that.
12 Q. All right. Well, let's see a document. It's 65 ter 296, pages 1
13 to 2 in the B/C/S, and pages 1 to 2 in the English. It's not in that
14 book any more. In fact, we might as well get that book back. And this
15 will come up on your screen so take a look at your screen. This is the
16 front page, I believe the English will come up. This is for a little
17 Opel Rekord.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
19 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Mr. President, I had no sound on my
20 microphone. My colleague could just ask him whether he's familiar with
21 this type of document before he asks any questions. These are vehicle
22 logs. I'm not sure whether this soldier was ever confronted with this
23 type of document before. So that at least we know where we are.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: If he's not familiar he'll explain what we are
25 talking about. Let's proceed.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. I want you to see this to see if it helps refresh your
3 recollection as to perhaps -- you know what an Opel Rekord looks like?
4 A. Well, I know what it looks like but which one was in the
5 barracks, what type of car, I don't know. I can't remember what kind of
6 Opel it was.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go over to the next section which shows the
8 little -- the travelling of this particular vehicle. It's page 2. And
9 let's zero in on 13 July, if we can, on both of them. And we can see on
10 this that this vehicle, according to this log, on the 13th, went from
11 Standard to the IKM, to Zvornik, to Loko, to Orahovac, to Zvornik, to
12 Orahovac, and it goes on Standard, Bratunac, Zvornik. Now this clearly
13 had importance to someone to put it in this log. Does this help refresh
14 your recollection if were you there on the 13th when this vehicle came
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, as far as I see, it is the 8th month, not
18 July. It's 13/8.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It looks like that. Mr. McCloskey? At least
20 what we see on the monitor now.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he's -- I think that's correct but we can
22 see the other side, that it's speaking of July.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Which other side?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: The title page of the document. We can go to the
25 title page of the document, which is the previous page, 01, 7 through 31,
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, but this particular entry is for the month
4 of August, for 8th month. It is not a question related the first page of
5 document but for some particular entry, for 13th of July and there is no
6 13th of July, just 13 of -- 13/8.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct, if we take a close look, it
8 starts off in July and then when it gets to the 7th of July, it switches
9 to August. It's our position that this is a mistake and that it's as we
10 continue to look at the document, we can see it --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Of course, that remains without
12 prejudice to the whole argument, whether it's July or August. What we
13 are seeing on the English version also seems to be a little bit
14 different. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is our position that this is obviously a wrong
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but we are leaving that unprejudiced. You
18 don't need to worry about that. Yes, go ahead, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. All right. A simple question: This particular --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back to the second page that you were
22 referring the witness to.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, please, if we could.
24 Q. Now, looking at this, and an Opel Rekord, and I think it says, 3,
25 in that column, related to the number of people, so we have now got an
1 Opel Rekord and three people coming by the IKM on the 13th, and it's our
2 position that this is a mistake and it's July. Do you remember anything
3 like that? Does that help refresh your recollection?
4 A. This went by -- had a car gone by in the afternoon, I would have
5 seen it, but that might have been in the morning before I reached the
7 Q. Okay. Let's slide this over and see if you recognise the
8 signature on the right-hand side for that day. Recognise any -- that --
9 any of those signatures, those two or three signatures at the end there?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Could they be Milorad Trbic? You must have seen his signature at
12 some point.
13 A. I'm not sure.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go to -- it's the same 65 ter number, it's the same
15 Opel Rekord but a different front page, it's ERN 00694701. Should be
16 page 3 in B/C/S and in English. This one is a little different. It
17 starts from the 14th of July, continues through 31 July like the other
18 one. It's the Opel Rekord with the same number P428, and it starts with
19 the 14th of July. Can we now go to the next page? And I guess we better
20 zero in on that left-hand column as best we can. Starting at the top.
21 Okay. We can see it starts off with a 7 for the 14th, then it gets to an
22 8th, and they are crossing things out, by the time we get to the 16th,
23 it's getting pretty messy and then by the time we get to the 20th, it
24 gets back to the 7th of July.
25 But just if we again go back to the top, if we could, this is the
1 vehicle that on the 14th goes to various places, including Orahovac. And
2 the next day goes to various places, including Rocevic. And the next
3 day, various places including Kozluk. And the next day, Kula, Pilica,
4 Loko. Could we go over to the far right-hand section of this? Those
5 first -- those signatures right there, who is that?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Does that look like Drago Nikolic's signature to you?
8 A. I'm not sure.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. No further questions.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll not re-examine this witness, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon?
13 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, if I can address the Court without
14 the witness hearing because --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I saw you standing. I'm not asking to
16 you ask questions.
17 Yes, Mr. Bourgon?
18 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I spoke with my client during the
19 recess and there is one question I forgot to ask which is not something
20 that is really contended. With my colleague's permission, the question
21 is simply how long he has known Drago Nikolic for. If my colleague
22 allows it I will ask him the question. If not, then I will not ask the
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. I don't think it should depend entirely
1 upon -- on Mr. McCloskey. Go ahead.
2 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
4 Q. Mr. Stojkic, I have one more question for you which I've obtained
5 leave from the Trial Chamber to ask you. Since when do you know Drago
6 Nikolic or when did you meet Drago Nikolic for the first time?
7 A. When I came to the brigade as a signalsman and started doing
8 shifts at the IKM.
9 Q. Can you help us with a date or something, a time frame?
10 A. No, I really can't.
11 Q. If I just take your answer, when did you -- when is it that you
12 started to be signalsman at the IKM to do a shift? What year?
13 A. 1994.
14 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. Stojkic.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 That brings your testimony to an end, Mr. Stojkic. On behalf of
17 the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over and I also
18 wish you on behalf of everyone a safe journey back home.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exhibits? Mr. Zivanovic?
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We have no exhibits with this witness.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon?
24 MR. BOURGON: No exhibits, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just that 3396, the tactical command with his
2 name on it had not been in evidence before so we would offer that into
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. BOURGON: No objection, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections from Mr. Zivanovic?
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No objections, thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't suppose the other Defence teams have an
9 interest in this so that document is admitted.
10 All right.
11 One moment, let's thrash the -- Mr. Sarapa, did you consult with
12 Mr. Haynes?
13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I did contact my colleagues from the
14 Borovcanin Defence team, and since it is a witness, a joint witness, of
15 their team and our Defence team, and we are just going to cross -- to
16 examine him once, when he is called, and with respect to all the measures
17 required we agree that it be in the manner in which the Borovcanin team
18 has requested.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, 30 days before the beginning of the
20 Borovcanin Defence case?
21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the agreement we reached
22 during the break.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So let's decide it here and now.
24 So pursuant to Rule 75 and the Tribunal's jurisprudence, the
25 Trial Chamber finds that the circumstances of Witnesses 7DW-14 and
1 7DW-12, also known as 4DW-16, warrant the provisional measures requested
2 in the Pandurevic motion and the Borovcanin joining motion, and that
3 their fear is objectively founded. The Trial Chamber therefore accedes
4 to the request and grants the protective measures requested.
5 The disclosure of the identity of Witness 7DW-14 will be made --
6 shall only be made 30 days prior to his respective anticipated date of
7 testimony, while that of common Witness 7DW-12 and 4DW-16, the disclosure
8 of his identity will be made 30 days prior to the commencement of the
9 Borovcanin Defence case.
10 Okay. Next witness.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Acimovic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber I welcome you to
15 this Tribunal and to this case. You are a Defence witness. You've been
16 summoned by the Defence team for Colonel Vujadin Popovic. Sorry to have
17 kept you waiting but we had another witness. You're going to start soon
18 and then we continue tomorrow and hopefully finish. Before you start
19 your testimony, you need to enter a solemn declaration that you will be
20 testifying the truth. That is the text of the solemn declaration.
21 Please read it out aloud, and that's your undertaking with us.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: ZORAN ACIMOVIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. Make yourself comfortable,
3 Mr. Zivanovic, you go first.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Acimovic. I'd like to start
7 off by introducing myself, although you know me already. But I'd like to
8 do that officially, as is the rule here. My name is Zoran Zivanovic and
9 in this case I'm Defence counsel for Vujadin Popovic.
10 I'm going to ask you to state your name and surname for the
12 A. My name is Zoran Acimovic.
13 Q. Would you give us your date of birth and place of birth?
14 A. I was born on the 1st of November 1966 in Loznica.
15 Q. What are you by profession?
16 A. I went to the secondary school of traffic and I graduated from
17 that school.
18 Q. [No interpretation]?
19 A. I'm a traffic technician.
20 Q. Tell me where you worked, in what company or institution.
21 A. I worked in the ZTO of Serbia. And my branch office was in
22 Loznica and Novi Zvornik.
23 Q. Could you just tell us what this abbreviation, ZTO, stands for?
24 A. It's the railways of Serbia.
25 Q. Tell me, please, were you ever mobilised and if so, when? When
1 the war started in Bosnia? Or prior to the war in Bosnia?
2 A. I was mobilised in March 1992, and in my military booklet, the
3 date says from the 20th of April 1992.
4 Q. And could you tell me where you were mobilised at that time, in
5 March 1992?
6 A. I was mobilised in the reserve force of the Yugoslav Army.
7 Q. Do you remember -- well, when you say the Yugoslav Army, do you
8 mean the JNA, the former JNA?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Later on, were you in the Army of Republika Srpska too?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us what unit you were in of the Army of Republika
14 A. At the beginning, I was in the military police, and later on, I
15 went to Trsic company which held the line at Boskovici. And from there,
16 I transferred to the signals company of the brigade command.
17 Q. Which brigade?
18 A. The Zvornik Brigade.
19 Q. Does that mean that throughout, you were within the composition
20 of that particular brigade, the Zvornik Brigade?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember who the commander of your signals company was
23 while you were in it?
24 A. The signals company commander was Sergeant Dragisa.
25 Q. Do you remember his surname perhaps?
1 A. Radic, Dragisa Radic, I think.
2 Q. Do you remember whether there was somebody who was the chief of
4 A. The chief of signals was Captain Milosav Petrovic.
5 Q. Can you tell me which duties you performed in the signals unit
6 you were in while you were there?
7 A. At the beginning I worked on the switchboard, TC 10. Then I was
8 transferred to help out the signalsmen up at the line, establishing lines
9 with the battalions, and then I returned to the switchboard and worked at
10 the IKM.
11 Q. When you say that you helped link up the battalions, can you tell
12 us what you actually did, what was your job, what did it entail?
13 A. Well, they were wire connections, wire lines, which went up to
14 the battalion, and it was our job to keep the line from the battalion,
15 brigade, command to the battalion to keep the line open there. Now, the
16 lines in the battalions themselves were maintained by the signalsmen.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to stop here today. We will continue
18 tomorrow, sir. And for the record, for this last part of the session,
19 Mr. Vanderpuye and Ms. Janisiewicz were present. Thank you. Tomorrow we
20 are sitting in the afternoon.
21 Mr. Acimovic, I want to make sure you understand what I'm going
22 to tell you. Between now and tomorrow when you continue and finish your
23 testimony you're not to speak or communicate with anyone in relation to
24 the subject matter that you're testifying upon.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of June,
5 2008, at 2.15 p.m.