1 Monday, 16 June 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Registrar. Could you call the case,
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al. Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.
10 All the accused are present.
11 Amongst the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes,
12 Mr. Bourgon, and Mr. Ostojic. All right.
13 Prosecution, we have Mr. McCloskey. I am not seeing anyone else.
14 There are two pending motions that I'm going to or we are going
15 to decide before we proceed with the sitting, and that's because there is
16 no opposition from the Prosecution and we'll avoid you the trouble of
17 having to read a written decision.
18 The first one relates to an urgent motion by accused Vujadin
19 Popovic filed confidentially on --
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I was saying the first decision relates to an
22 urgent motion by accused Popovic to amend his Rule 65 ter exhibit list
23 with three new documents, which was filed confidentially on the 12th of
24 June. As I said, there is no opposition on the part of the Prosecution,
25 and, therefore, Mr. Zivanovic, this motion is hereby being granted.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The second motion we are deciding today is one by
3 General Miletic filed also on the 12th of June 2008, in which
4 Madam Fauveau for her client seeks calling two witnesses pursuant to
5 Rule 92 ter of our rules, instead of viva voce witnesses as they were
6 planned to be earlier on. Again, there is no opposition on the part of
7 the Prosecution, and, therefore, the motion is also being hereby granted.
8 Having said that, I think we throw our eyes in the direction of
9 the place where the new witness, Mr. Rakic, will be testifying by
11 [Witness appeared via videolink]
12 My first duty, Mr. Rakic, is to wish you a good morning and make
13 sure you can hear me, and that you are receiving interpretation in your
14 own language.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: The second thing is to wish good morning to our
17 staff there that are assisting you. Good morning to you.
18 All right. If there are at any time problems with the
19 transmission outgoing and incoming, please alert us immediately.
20 Okay. Thank you.
21 Mr. Rakic, you've been summoned to give evidence by accused
22 Colonel Vujadin Popovic; and, as such, you will start giving evidence
23 soon. You'll be asked questions, first, by Popovic's counsel who will
24 introduce himself to you. But before you start giving evidence, you are
25 required by our rules to give a solemn declaration that in the course of
1 your testimony, you will be speaking the whole truth. You have the text.
2 I see. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn
3 undertaking with us.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: LJUBO RAKIC
7 [Witness testified via videolink]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. I don't know about my
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.
13 Mr. Zivanovic.
14 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rakic. My name is Zivanovic. I appear here
16 for Vujadin Popovic; and, although we know each other, I have to do the
17 official introduction.
18 Could you please tell me your full name and surname?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, say something, please, so that we'll see
20 whether the interpretation is reaching us.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ljubo Rakic.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Fine.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. How old are you?
25 A. 55.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Could you tell me about your educational attainment?
3 A. I completed the electrical engineering school of the military
5 Q. Could you tell me, briefly, about your career?
6 A. After I completed the academy 1980 --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Audibility is very bad,
8 with lots of interference.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I continued to teach in
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we seem to have some teething
12 trouble with the technical side.
13 Ms. Fauveau?
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. Some accused also have
15 difficulties hearing the witness.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think, ultimately, it's a question of
17 setting the audio level on the right channel, but, yes, a technician is
18 coming by.
19 In the meantime, I would like the witness to answer his question
21 Mr. Rakic, if you could repeat your answer, please, to the
22 question that Mr. Zivanovic put to you.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Rakic, I'll repeat it. For technical reasons, we couldn't
25 hear your answer well. Could you describe your career briefly?
1 A. After I completed the military academy, I worked as a teacher in
2 the military technical academy in Rajlovac until 1992.
3 Q. And after 1992?
4 A. Well, then --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Is it okay? I just want to make sure
6 that all the accused can hear.
7 Mr. Popovic, I think while usually under normal circumstances,
8 when we are in here, this leaving it here would work. In today's case, I
9 think you will need to have it closer to your ears. Okay.
10 We still have General Gvero and General Pandurevic. Are you all
11 right with the audio? Okay. Yes.
12 Sorry for this interruption. My apologies to everyone, but it
14 Mr. Zivanovic, if you could proceed, please.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rakic, tell me now about your career after
18 A. In 1992, I was in the army of Republika Srpska until 1998, and
19 then I was in the army of Yugoslavia
20 Q. In which unit of the army of Republika Srpska were you from 1992
22 A. I was in the Drina Corps, at the beginning, in the Milic Vlasenic
23 Brigade. Later, I was in the command of the corps from November 1993
24 until the end of the war.
25 Q. Could you tell me in what establishment position were you in
1 summer 1995 or more precisely in July 1995?
2 A. Chief of informatics in the command of the corps.
3 Q. Can you describe briefly your duties and responsibilities as
4 chief of informatics and computers in the corps command?
5 A. For the most part, it was a small section and most of our work
6 was to gather, process, and update information about members of Republika
7 Srpska who had gotten killed, members of the Drina Corps in our case; as
8 well as to analyse the requirements of command and other data, such as
9 personnel-related data and other information that the corps command
11 Q. Did you personally participate in combat operations related to
13 A. No.
14 Q. In addition to other things, did you serve as officer on duty in
15 the duty centre of the command of the corps?
16 A. Well, duty service, one of the regular duties according to the
17 roster applied in the corps. That roster was made for the current month
18 and the following month.
19 Q. I'll show you 1D767. That's a document under tab 2.
20 I would like you to look at the document and tell us if that's
21 what this roster of duty service in the corps command looked like.
22 Do you remember serving on duty, being the duty officer, on this
24 A. Well, there are no modifications, no changes, no alterations, and
25 I did probably. You can see my name here.
1 Q. Could you describe, briefly, the responsibility of the duty
2 officer in the operations centre of the corps? What did he have to do,
3 just very briefly, in the course of his stint, his tour of duty?
4 A. The operations duty officer is the person who coordinates the
5 work of the corps command and subordinated units in keeping with the
6 orders that apply on that day or have a longer period of validity. But
7 the basic duty is coordination, receiving information from subordinate
8 units, processing that information, and forwarding it to addressees in
9 the corps command. That is the basic responsibility of the duty officer,
10 to coordinate work between subordinated units and the corps command.
11 Q. Just some more information, if you could provide, about this tour
12 of duty. How long are you on duty?
13 A. Twenty-four hours. But most of the work is done in the morning,
14 and then you turn your responsibilities over to the team. You perform it
15 with the main documents governing the work of the operations centre, the
16 documents that have arrived for that day for the centre and for the
17 subordinated units; and, of course, you act as the situation requires.
18 In the course of the morning, regular reports from subordinated
19 units come in. These reports are processed. It was customary for the
20 officers in charge of various areas in the corps review these reports,
21 each concerning his own field of expertise, and then they are forwarded
22 to the operations centre of the Main Staff.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, can we get his rank at the time?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rakic, I'm sorry. I forgot to ask you about
1 your rank at the time.
2 A. Lieutenant-Colonel.
3 Q. There is another what seems to be error in the interpretation.
4 I'll have to repeat a question that you have answered.
5 When you were talking about the arrival of regular reports from
6 units, at what time of day?
7 A. Early evening, perhaps 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. - that's what I think -
8 in any case, in the afternoon, early evening; and then later in the
9 evening the compiled report to the Main Staff would be made.
10 Q. I have already shown you, but I will show you again, one
11 intercept. We don't have the log of duty service from the Drina Corps
12 from that time. We have some other documents that shed some light on the
13 activities of the duty officer for a certain day.
14 Could you please look and I'll show you certain documents that we
15 have, and I will appreciate if you answer from your memory, from your
16 best recollection. Just a minute.
17 Now, before I do that, let me ask you something else. Do you
18 know Vujadin Popovic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell me what were his duties at the time?
21 A. He was chief of the security organ of the corps.
22 Q. To the best of your knowledge, could you tell me briefly what
23 were the responsibilities of the chief of security of the corps? What
24 was he supposed to do?
25 A. He was to protect the commands of units, important structures and
1 features in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, to prevent
2 various terrorist groups, and that is part of his job description I gave
4 Q. I have shown you earlier another intercept, an intercept of the
5 conversation you had with him; and it was allegedly intercepted by the
6 BH army.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, leading.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Couldn't be more leading than that.
10 Please rephrase your question, Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I'll do it.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me -- in fact, I'll show you one
13 conversation, P1201. It's in tab 1.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
15 Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. McCloskey, and Registrar, if you could, first
16 of all, identify this intercept by its exhibit number and also check its
17 status whether it's a protected document or not; in other words, whether
18 it's confidential or not.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't see a real problem, if we could go into
22 private session for one second.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session for a
24 while, please.
25 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We have in open session.
10 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, you may proceed. Thank you.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Could you please re-read the text to yourself, and then I'll have
13 questions for you.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm done.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Not to be broadcast, however. Inside the
18 courtroom, yes; but not for broadcast purposes.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. First of all, do you remember having had this conversation with
21 Vujadin Popovic?
22 A. It is possible that such a conversation took place. I cannot be
23 fully certain, though. It's been 13 years since; however, it is very
24 likely that it actually took place.
25 Q. First of all, the other colleagues from the corps, did they
1 usually call you Rale?
2 A. Well, it's customary in the military to shorten one's last name
3 or alter it in some way; so my nickname was Raka or Rale.
4 Q. At the beginning of the conversation, it says: "I was up there."
5 Allegedly, Vujadin Popovic is saying that. How did you understand that?
6 "I was up there." What does it mean, "up there"?
7 A. On that day --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment, please.
9 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Unless he can be more clear about whether this is
11 possible or likely, any questions on these intercepts are going to be
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, what's your comments to that?
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is not speculation. I asked the witness to
15 say how he understand this.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Provided, I think, as a question it is
17 legitimate. However, it stands to reason that the witness must be
18 forewarned that he can answer the question and should answer the question
19 only if he is sure of what he's about to say.
20 We don't want any speculation from you, Mr. Rakic. If you don't
21 know what was meant by that statement in this intercept, then you tell
22 us, "I don't know. I'm not in a position to answer that. I can only
23 speculate." Then we will move to the next question.
24 Yes, Madam Fauveau?
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is a
1 technical problem. In e-court, could we have the second page in B/C/S,
2 because the document which the accused can currently see is not the
3 conversation in question.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Madam.
5 Do we have the second page now? I think so. Yes. We have the
6 second page now.
7 Mr. Rakic, can you follow Mr. Zivanovic's question which I am
8 going to ask him to repeat to you, please.
9 Mr. Zivanovic, if you could direct the witness to the part of the
10 transcript that you're interested in and repeat your question.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat my question.
12 Q. What was your understanding of Mr. Popovic's words when he says,
13 "I was up there"? What was your understanding of the term "up there"?
14 A. I understood it to mean that it was in the area between Zvornik
15 and Tuzla
16 greater than in Zvornik, where this conversation took place. It had to
17 do with the area of combat of that day, which is Baljkovici.
18 Q. In this conversation, what was your understanding of the
19 word "boss"?
20 A. It had to do with the commander of the unit in whose area of
21 responsibility he was; that means the Zvornik Brigade commander,
22 Mr. Pandurevic.
23 Q. What about the expression, "Boss"? Was it something frequently
24 used in military parlance?
25 A. We frequently used that for commanders of units of the corps.
1 Q. In this conversation, he mentions -- he mentions an interim
2 report and he's asking to you confirm whether you received it.
3 Do you know what interim report it was? Can you recall that?
4 A. It was a report sent from the Zvornik Brigade at noon. The
5 situation concerning the Baljkovica area of combat was included, and it
6 was probably the most active and busiest combat of the year -- of the war
7 for that unit.
8 Q. At one point you replied, "All," or, "Everything." Can you tell
9 us what it meant?
10 A. That day, as the duty officer, I was monitoring all of the events
11 that had to do with that part of the front lines, since there was combat.
12 Part of the Zvornik Brigade was in a sandwich between the various units
13 at the Tuzla
14 moving towards the front lines held by the 2nd Corps, I believe. The way
15 I understood the report was that there was a lot of fighting with many
17 Q. I will read out the next sentence of his, and you can follow
18 perhaps. You will see that between certain words, there are dots. We
19 were told that such dots are introduced when the operator, taking down
20 the conversation, cannot make out one or several words. It practically
21 means that some words are missing, and we have dots instead.
22 The sentence is the following: "Everything is as he had
23 written," and then dots. "I was there. I saw it for myself. Some
24 numbers were received." Dots. "Otherwise, it's not important." Dots.
25 Tomorrow, I'll be there. Please convey to the general," dots, "I
1 finished with the work.
2 What was your understanding of the words: "Everything is as he
4 A. The way it was put in the interim report. In the interim report,
5 it read that combat was fierce and that's how I understood these words:
6 Lots of fighting, many casualties, some data followed subsequently
7 testified of a great number of killed soldiers in the Zvornik Brigade.
8 Q. Do you know whether Popovic, in any way, was supposed to confirm
9 the contents of the report? Why did he mention the report of the Zvornik
10 Brigade commander to you?
11 A. I think Popovic had been given orders to go to Baljkovica area to
12 check the contents of the report and to see who from the Zvornik Brigade
13 had sent the report. His task was to verify the data.
14 Q. Further down in the conversation, just following the sentence I
15 read out to you, it says: "Some numbers, figures, were received."
16 Can you tell us what those figures pertained to?
17 A. You should have an order for assistance to the Zvornik Brigade on
18 the part of the Drina Corps. It had to do with the units that were
19 supposed to come to help the Zvornik Brigade, to hopefully reduce the
20 number of casualties and to assist them in that part of the theatre.
21 Q. Following that, it reads: "I finished with the work." What was
22 your understanding of what "work" that was that he had finished?
23 A. Touring the area of Baljkovica. He was sent there to verify the
24 data received in the report.
25 Q. Next, we have your words: "You finished" or "You are done." Was
1 that a question, a confirmation, of what he was saying? Can you recall
3 A. No, no.
4 Q. Tell me what your interpretation was of his words, "Finished
6 A. It had to do with the touring of the area of Baljkovica. That
7 was my understanding of it.
8 Q. That part concludes with the following words: "Tomorrow, I will
9 be there once I'm sure that everything had been taken care of."
10 Can you tell us what was it that was supposed to be taken care of
11 by the next day so that he could go back to the corps command?
12 A. I can only presume that he was to report personally to the corps
13 command concerning the events in the Baljkovica area.
14 Q. In the next sentence, it reads: "Until or by the time I arrive
15 there with some kind of transport."
16 Do you remember what that transport was about, and especially
17 what "from there" or "there" means?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Further down in the text, there is a sentence which reads:
20 "Mostly, there are no significant issues, but there were terrible
21 problems up there and what the commander had sent is largely that."
22 How did you understand that there were great problems there?
23 A. Since he was a security officer, there were no sabotage groups in
24 that particular territory; therefore, no direct threats to the security
25 of the Zvornik Brigade, since he was in their AOR.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We don't have the
2 translation of the document.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know how I can help you there.
4 Let's proceed. Go ahead.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thanks.
6 Q. [Interpretation] This expression, "In a nutshell, that's what the
7 commander had sent," what would that mean?
8 A. That the document is correct.
9 Q. Next, we have a question of yours in which you ask: "Listen,
10 Vujadin, tell me whether anything has come in from Vidoje Blagojevic."
11 First of all, were you on a first name or second name basis?
12 A. First name basis.
13 Q. What people of Vidoje Blagojevic was he talking about -- were you
14 talking about? Can you recall off the cuff?
15 A. There should be an order of the corps commander on dispatching
16 parts of the Drina Corps units to assist the Zvornik Brigade. One of
17 those units was the Batajnica Brigade --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Bratunac Brigade.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There must be a document in
20 existence according to the reports that came to the duty office of the
21 Zvornik Brigade; and to the data we had in the early morning hours, in
22 the area of Baljkovica, there was fierce fighting, and the Zvornik
23 Brigade that was under a lot of pressure in that area required
24 assistance. There should be a document in existence regulating the
25 arrival of part of the unit of the Bratunac Brigade to the Zvornik
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is error in transcript.
3 It is page 16, line 10. It was said Batajnica brigade. It
4 should be Bratunac Brigade.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about it. It was an interpreter's
6 mistake, acknowledged as such, and corrected. Thank you.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now, tell me, when you said "Here, now," what did you mean? It's
9 also in this text. Do you see it?
10 A. You're asking me?
11 Q. Yes, yes. You see further on in the text that we have been
12 discussing, it says: "Here, now," meaning whether the men have arrived?
13 A. Whether two units of the Bratunac Brigade had arrived in the area
14 of Zvornik.
15 Q. All right.
16 Let me ask you now to look in what is tab 7 in front of you.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, for Judges' benefits and for record,
18 could you pronounce the 65 ter number as well, please?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'm trying to find it, Your Honour.
20 [Interpretation] It's the list that we added.
21 [In English] I think that it is the document from our one of
22 three documents added today to our Rule 65 ter list, and I could ask the
23 usher to put it on ELMO, if possible.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Have the documents --
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He has it. The witness is provided with the
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But we need to follow, too, as Judge Kwon
3 rightly put it. The three documents are 1D1167, 1165, 1166. Those are
4 the three documents, and they are all Drina Corps command. One is dated
5 15 July 1995
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is a document from 16 July 1995.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it should be 1D1167.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: As I understood you, the witness needs to refer to
10 the document behind tab 7. So for him, that's not a problem. But we
11 have still not 100 per cent identified the document for our purposes
12 here. I think it's 1165, but that's a suspicion that I have. Is it 1165
13 or isn't it?
14 1167, yes, 1167. All right. It is not translated, this
15 document, as yet.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry for inconvenience.
17 Q. [Interpretation] You've seen this document, sir?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.
19 Mr. McCloskey?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: If this is 1D1167, we do have an English
21 translation. I don't know if it's on e-court or not, but we can put
22 it -- well --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, is it also a Prosecution exhibit?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: We dug it up, though.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, I can read just two sentences from
4 this document.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed because we are losing more time this
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
8 Q. [Interpretation] You have in front of you this document, and I'm
9 going to read it. Up in the heading, we read that it's the command of
10 the Drina Corps 16 July 1995, engagement of units to assist in combat
11 operations in the 1st Zvornik Brigade.
12 Are you reading this? Do you have that in front of you?
13 It's addressed to the commands of the 1st Bratunac Brigade,
14 1st Milic Brigade, 1st Vlasenica brigade, and it says: "Due to the
15 extremely complex situation in the area of defence of the 1st Zvornik
16 Infantry Brigade, it is necessary to reinforce this brigade with
17 personnel in order to prevent the link-up of enemy forces acting from the
18 direction of Tuzla
19 Srebrenica via Kamenica towards Tuzla
20 "In order to assist the 1st Zvornik Brigade, I hereby order the
21 command of the 1st Bratunac Brigade will allocate 1 00 men fit for active
22 combat. The commander of this unit will report to the commander of the
23 1st Zvornik Brigade by 1700 hours on 16 July at the command post at
25 Do you see any connection between this and what you just said?
1 A. Well, that's what I just said. This telegram was sent at 12.47,
2 and the deadline for execution was very early, 1700 hours; that is, by
3 that time, the unit had to be already there in Zvornik. That's how
4 complex the situation was.
5 Q. In the following sentence, Popovic says: "It didn't arrive in
6 time and it wasn't brought -- inserted in time."
7 What does that mean, "It hasn't arrived in time and it wasn't
8 inserted in time"?
9 A. It means that this personnel did not arrive by 1700 hours.
10 That's the deadline given in the order you've just seen. It was already
11 getting dark, and they were not inserted into combat actions. They were
12 still being expected somewhere in the area.
13 Q. And then it says: "That's why this commander there had -- was in
15 A. It's Tamborovic [phoen], the commander of the Zvornik Brigade.
16 He had trouble in combat operations.
17 Q. I see that you got in touch with the duty operations officer
18 after that, precisely with regard to providing more information about
19 these men.
20 What I want to know is this: Did anything in this conversation
21 concern prisoners?
22 A. No.
23 Q. At that time, when you were on duty that day, did you know
24 anything about prisoners in Zvornik at all?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And I'd like to remove one additional unclarity with regard to
2 this conversation.
3 Is it possible that in that conversation you introduced yourself
4 as Rasic?
5 A. No, it's not.
6 Q. Now I'm going to ask you about some other things that happened
7 and of which we have information that they happened in the course of your
8 duty. As I have told you, we don't have the logbook of the duty service
9 from the Drina
10 that day and a notebook of the duty officer from Zvornik, from the
11 Zvornik Brigade.
12 And now I'm going to ask you to clarify some things for us about
13 all that.
14 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, Mr. McCloskey, just asking for
15 record, you wouldn't dispute that this conversation we looked at was
16 intercepted on 16th of July?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President -- sorry, Your Honour. Yes,
18 that's correct. It's a 16 July intercept.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm going to ask you to first look at the logbook of the duty
21 operations officer from the Zvornik Brigade. Actually, it's not a
22 logbook. It's a notebook which was not an official logbook of the duty
23 operations officer, which concerns that particular day.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The number is 377. It's a
25 Prosecutor's exhibit.
1 Q. It is under tab 9 over there among your documents.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In e-court, this is page 144.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the document before me, and
4 it's dated 16 July 1995
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This is a handwritten document, is it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: Do you have the number in English?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have the English page.
10 [In English] It's 25, page 25.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please tell me whether you -- and I'm
12 going to quote some of the notes that concerns Zlatar or the duty officer
13 at Zlatar.
14 Could you tell us please as much as you remember, and if you
15 remember some of those things? On the following page -- no, no. You
16 have the exact page but I'm referring to e-court.
17 On the following page, there is an entry stating something about
18 the interim report, Zlatar, signal given, it was acted upon the signal.
19 Can you see that?
20 A. "By 2030, everybody to Cer [phoen]," is that what you meant?
21 Q. Yes. Do you remember that perhaps?
22 A. No.
23 Q. On the following page, 5765 are the last four digits on that
24 page. It says: "At 11.30 from Zlatar, an unknown location before the
25 PK Defence of our line. This was what was communicated." Do you
1 remember whether this is you who communicated that?
2 A. No, I don't remember.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We don't have the English
4 translation of the original document.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. At the end of that page: "At 1250 ..." --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I provided the booth with the --
9 THE INTERPRETER: I apologise.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- with this document, so if they could please
11 make use of it.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies.
13 JUDGE KWON: English page 147, we are looking at.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 147.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The ERN' last four is 5765 for the booth.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. All right.
18 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In English, it is page 28.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay.
21 Let's move.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. At the end of this page, it says: "At 12.50, our package has
24 already left from Zlatar, and another package should arrive by 10.30.
25 This was communicated to the brigade IKM."
1 My question: Do you remember that you sent this message?
2 A. No, I don't. But judging by the order that you just quoted a
3 while ago, it was realistic to expect that this should arrive in the
4 Zvornik Brigade. Two parcels that we are talking about, they should have
5 arrived from Bratunac.
6 Q. Can you put this word "parcel" in context?
7 A. The units that were summoned to help Zvornik Brigade.
8 Q. On the following page, kindly look at that, it says: "Popovic
9 requested bus with a full tank to be sent and 500 litres of D-2. Zlatar
10 duty officer and Golic informed."
11 Do you remember whether you recorded that conversation? Do you
12 remember that request that fuel should be sent?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. I'm going to show you another telephone conversation. It is
15 1189, the Prosecutor's Exhibit 1189, and I'm going to ask you to look
16 under -- just a moment please.
17 Let me just try and find the place.
18 This is under tab number 12:
19 At 1358, this is not the first conversation but rather the second
20 one. At 1358, this is a conversation that was conducted between the duty
21 officer at Zlatar and the duty officer at Palma. This is at least what
22 it says here at 1358.
23 I'm interested in the first five lines of that conversation where
24 it says -- could you please read for yourself. You can read the entire
25 thing if you wish.
1 Please read, and then I'll have some questions for you.
2 A. Go on.
3 Q. Tell me, please, judging by the first five sentences in that
4 conversation, it arises from them that the duty officer called from Palma
5 and said that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic asked for 500 litres of D-2, and
6 this should be communicated to the duty officer at Zlatar.
7 Can you please tell me whether you remember any such conversation
8 and any such request?
9 A. But at the beginning, it says that the connection was transferred
10 not to the duty officer but to somebody else in the command. So the duty
11 officer at Zlatar never received this communication.
12 Q. My question was whether you received this message or not.
13 A. No.
14 Q. And now I'm going to ask you to go back to the logbook.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, if you do not identify the exact tab
18 number for Serb B/C/S, the accused cannot follow. The Judges can --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: It's in the interests of your clients actually.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I indicated the tab number to the witness.
21 JUDGE KWON: 1189, A, B, C, or whatever. You have to indicate
22 the exact publication broadcasting to the accused.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. It is C, C for English translation -- or
24 A, A. Sorry.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other thing is I understand, Judge Kwon,
1 and, Mr. Zivanovic, that this document is under seal.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I know, it's not.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Could someone check, because that's the information
4 I have. Because if it is, then we need to go in private session.
5 JUDGE KWON: As long as we do not broadcast this document, it
6 will be okay. But my point is the accused were not following this
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe that the accused can follow it.
9 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless we get the reference, the technicians, or
11 whoever is responsible, will not upload this document on e-court in a way
12 that the accused can then follow. This is the problem. This is why we
13 are telling you make sure each time you're going to refer to a document.
14 It's not enough that the witness over there has got a folder with
15 documents behind a tab number. That's not enough.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I can repeat this question and give you
17 exact letter of the document.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will be appreciated, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's Prosecution Document P1189, A.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is English translation.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And there will be no broadcast of this
23 document while we proceed with it.
24 JUDGE PROST: We need the B/C/S, though. A is the English.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: A is English. B/C/S is C.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: C.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I could repeat my question.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, while we wait for the uploading.
4 Yes, we have it. We have it now.
5 Please, if you could kindly repeat your question, Mr. Zivanovic?
6 We need to go to the next page.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Rakic, I'm going to repeat the last few questions about the
9 document because not everybody in the courtroom could follow as we were
11 I'm, again, asking you to look at the conversation that took
12 place at 1358 and to tell me, please, whether you remember that you heard
13 that conversation. Now that you have read the record, do you remember
14 that you received from Popovic, or somebody else, a message that Popovic
15 was asking for 500 litres of Diesel-2 fuel?
16 A. No. But you can see in the document that the connection was
17 rerouted to another user. So according to the document, this was never
18 received by the centre and by the duty officer.
19 Q. Let's go back to the duty officer's logbook, i.e. the notebook of
20 the duty officer that we just saw a little while ago.
21 It says in it: "Entry 114, 1700 hours."
22 A. I have it in front of me.
23 Q. It says that a signal was given from Zlatar one night for the
24 sector where the commander is. Do you remember that you communicated
25 this message?
1 A. No, I had never communicated this.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get an ERN for the B/C/S page?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: It continues like this all the time.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's the same page as previous.
5 JUDGE KWON: If you could read out the last four digits of ERN.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 5766.
7 JUDGE KWON: 148, English page.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is the next entry after previous one with
10 JUDGE AGIUS: The previous one was 147.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It was already shown to the witness.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Let us now look at the following entry at 1430
13 hours, where it says: "Reported from Zlatar that 30 of them are supposed
14 to come from Dobos [phoen] by 1600 hours, convey to the commander or they
15 will be attached to the commander."
16 Do you know what this refers to?
17 A. This refers to the order for the units to come and assist the
18 Zvornik Brigade, i.e. the troops of the Drina Corps from other units that
19 were supposed to arrive in the sector of the Zvornik Brigade.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Zivanovic. Could you check the
21 line 24 of previous page -- 26. You said 1700 hours?
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no, no, no. Just a moment, sorry.
23 JUDGE KWON: Is it 1417?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 14 hours 17 minutes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's proceed.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
2 Q. [Interpretation] And now can we look at the last entry on that
3 same page. It says: "They called from Zlatar that the commander," I
4 apologise, "is to call the Zlatar duty officer or send -- that the
5 commander should call the duty officer at Zlatar or send a written report
6 on the situation in the field at 1525 hours."
7 Do you remember whether you perhaps asked for something like that
8 from the Zvornik Brigade at the time?
9 A. A report was asked because it was not known at the time what the
10 situation was at the Baljkovica sector.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Non-responsive.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Interim report was asked for.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a non-responsive answer.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct. That's correct, yeah.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And now can we move on to the following page. I'm not going to
19 ask you about the first things where the numbers of the battalions are
20 listed. I'm going to ask you about the entry at 1620 hours.
21 It says: "Message from Zlatar that one officer from the command
22 was to be sent immediately to the commander and send a written report on
23 the current situation, the agreement, and arrangements made with the
24 other side, immediately send Mijatovic."
25 Do you remember whether you conveyed this message from Zlatar?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Look at the following entry, where it says: "Message from Zlatar
3 that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic must go to Vinko Pandurevic in the field
4 at 1640 hours."
5 Do you remember if it was you who conveyed the message that
6 Popovic should go to Pandurevic on that day? Do you remember having
7 conveyed this particular message that we are talking about at the moment?
8 A. No, I can't remember.
9 Q. In the last paragraph of this page, it says: "30 soldiers came
10 from Vlasenica at 1705 and were sent immediately to the IKM in Kitovnice
11 as ordered. Zlatar was immediately informed and asked again whether the
12 report had come from the commander."
13 Do you remember whether you conveyed this message?
14 A. Yes. This part about whether he was informed, yes, because the
15 report came from the duty officer at Palma, informing us that soldiers
16 had arrived from Dobos [phoen], which means from the Vlasenica Brigade
18 Q. On the following page, in the penultimate paragraph --
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise. Just
20 bear with me while I'm looking at the entry at 18 00 hours.
21 Q. Yes. Penultimate paragraph on the following page, it says:
22 "They asked from Zlatar if Vazic had received any assistance. It was
23 checked, and a response came that they haven't arrived yet but they are
24 expected around 1800 hours."
25 Do you remember who Vasic was?
1 A. He was the chief of the security centre in Zvornik; actually,
2 it's the Zvornik MUP.
3 Q. Do you know anything about the activities of the MUP on that
4 particular day?
5 A. On that day, Zvornik was threatened, and that's all. The
6 available forces were engaged, including the MUP units, to assist the
7 units between Snagovo and Baljkovica, on that line.
8 Q. Do you know, if on that day, some reinforcement was sent to them
9 as well? Do you remember that?
10 A. I only know that later we were informed that a MUP unit had
11 arrived from Doboj, I believe, and that they had problems as soon as they
12 entered combat.
13 Q. And now let's move on to the following page, the last paragraph
14 on that page, where it says: "Message from Zlatar that a parcel set off
15 from Badem. Half an hour ago, it was reported at 2015, reported at IKM."
16 Can you explain the nature of that particular parcel? Do you
18 A. Again, this was executing the order about a hundred fighters from
19 the Bratunac Brigade to be sent to the Zvornik Brigade. This is the same
20 parcel we already mentioned that was late in arriving.
21 Q. Can you now explain one thing? At that time, in the evening
22 hours of that day, there was no more fighting, the line had already been
23 opened. Do you remember, if you remember, why these soldiers, the
24 reinforcement, had been dispatched at the moment to assist the Zvornik
1 A. The order was sent earlier, around 1300 hours; and the intention
2 was to open the corridor and stop the possible breakthrough of the enemy
3 towards Zvornik.
4 Q. I'm now going to ask you to look at the following entry.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The page number is 5770, the
6 following page --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, I think it's time for the break.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's okay.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have the break now, 25 minutes, and then
10 we'll see. How much longer?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe 15 to 20 minutes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Rakic, can you hear us? Are you receiving
16 interpretation of what I'm saying?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let's continue, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recall -- I'll ask you just one more
21 thing concerning this, these books or notebooks of the duty officer of
22 the Zvornik Brigade. Well, it's the same page where you were.
23 In EDS, it's 33rd page of English, and 152nd page of B/C/S. [In
24 English] Sorry. [Interpretation] In e-court, I meant, not EDS.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get an ERN?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 5770.
2 Q. [Interpretation] It's this entry at 2125, where information is
3 asked from Zlatar whether "self-propelled guns are still in our hands."
4 Do you remember passing on this information?
5 A. No, I did not pass it on.
6 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you about just one more intercept.
7 It's P1205. It's the last tab in your file, bearing number 15.
8 This intercept is from the 17th of July 1995, in the morning at 5.27.
9 Could you please read this first conversation, it's very short,
10 and then I'll ask my question.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's A and C in e-court.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this document is also under seal,
13 I'm being informed, so that there will not be any broadcast while we
14 process it. Thank you.
15 Go ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can go ahead.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You have seen a reference to your surname in one place here. So
19 I want to know whether you recall you had this conversation on that day
20 in the morning.
21 A. That was after wake-up. When the duty officer calls, the
22 commander calls subordinated units to see if anything extraordinary
23 happened during the night. That is from the last regular report.
24 Q. Mr. Rakic, I'm no longer going to show you these documents. I
25 just wanted to ask you about your knowledge in general, since you were in
1 the command of the Drina Corps at the time. Tell me first, do you recall
2 whether, in the combat activities around Srebrenica, the whole corps was
3 engaged or only some of the units?
4 A. Part of the units were involved in direct combat. Other units
5 were engaged in other segments of the front line.
6 Q. Do you recall if there existed in Srebrenica certain Muslim
8 A. Yes, they existed.
9 Q. And do you recall, approximately, their strength?
10 A. According to some information, they had 5.000 to 6.000 fighting
12 Q. Can you remember what happened with these forces after the VRS
13 entered Srebrenica?
14 A. One part of them moved to join up with the units in the area
15 towards Tuzla
16 That was the part that pulled out from Srebrenica towards Tuzla
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm going to object to any more questions about
19 this. We received information that this witness would talk about one
20 intercept, the intercept about Popovic coming to the front lines. That's
21 all the information we've received, and we have received no proofing
22 note. So he's gone into many other intercepts and things that we at
23 least saw on his list of exhibits, so we at least saw that coming.
24 This area is completely new; and, frankly, I would object unless
25 I can get more information, and that goes for future witnesses as well,
1 if this is going to happen.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: These are general information about the units of
4 28th Division, about Muslim units, and the events which took place after
5 entering of VRS in Srebrenica; and the witness was the officer of the
6 command of Drina Corps and I just asked him about such questions.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: But do you necessarily have to rely or refer to an
8 intercept that has -- you haven't given prior notice of to the
9 Prosecution to ask the question?
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, I finished with intercepts. Sorry.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. You could have asked a general question
12 without referring to the intercept for which the Prosecution had not been
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll not refer to any interception, any more.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I finished with confronting the witness.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue. But point taken, and that applies
18 across the board to all Defence teams.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: All right. I'll reduce my questions, my --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it is not a question of --
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- the examination of the
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, it's not a question of reducing or
24 augmenting the number of your questions. The point made by Mr. McCloskey
25 is you've been referring the witness to intercepts which were not
1 indicated by you when you provided the Prosecution with prior, advance
2 notice of what this witness will be testifying upon. That is precisely
3 what should be avoided.
4 The Prosecution should not be taken by surprise and have to face
5 questions on intercepts that were not on the list that were not indicated
6 as being intercepts on which the witness will be asked questions. This
7 is the point.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: All these intercepts are on the list.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But they were not indicated.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's true that I did not indicate in my witness
11 summary about it. That's true. I found it --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. They are on the list that has been provided
14 Let's continue, please.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Were you aware -- no, no. I'm not going to ask you that.
17 Just tell me, please, how and when did you first learn of this
18 conversation that I have shown you, the conversation between you and
19 Popovic, and in what context. Do you remember that?
20 A. I believe it was just prior to the Krstic trial, when I first
21 found about it; and I found it on the internet later, this intercept.
22 Q. Have you ever had occasion or has anyone ever asked you about the
23 contents of that conversation, apart from Defence teams?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rakic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
3 Mr. Nikolic?
4 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no questions.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 Ms. Nikolic, you had indicated that you don't have questions.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. We have
8 no questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 Mr. Lazarevic, you had requested about ten minutes.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. That's what we requested. But
12 after reconsidering and hearing his evidence here, we decided not to
13 cross-examine the witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.
15 Madam Faveau or Mr. Petrusic.
16 Yes, Mr. Petrusic, go ahead.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The Defence
18 of General Miletic will have questions for this witness.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I said go ahead, because I anticipated
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rakic, good morning. My name is Nenad
23 Petrusic; and on behalf of the Defence team of General Miletic, I will be
24 asking you some questions.
25 You said that in the course of 1995, you performed certain duties
1 in the informatics section of the Drina Corps. Can you tell us whether
2 this section was part of the staff?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who was your immediate superior?
5 A. The Chief of Staff was -- until July, it was Krstic, and later it
6 was General Andric.
7 Q. In that hierarchy, did Colonel Lazic had any superior
8 relationship towards you?
9 A. Only if he was standing in for the Chief of Staff.
10 Q. You said, furthermore, that in performing your duties in the
11 informatics section, for the most part, you entered data about persons
12 missing or killed and such; and I would like to know whether in the
13 course of making these statistics and putting them in the computer, you
14 also introduced information about the passage of humanitarian aid through
15 the area of the Drina Corps?
16 A. If I remember correctly, another section was doing that. If we
17 were making any reports about that, that would be compiled reports for a
18 certain period, like monthly reports, et cetera.
19 Q. So do you know about the existence of those monthly or annual
20 reports? Were they made?
21 A. Yes. Some sort of overview was made. Whether it was monthly or
22 bi-monthly or covered a longer period, I can't remember. It was a long
23 time ago.
24 Q. Did you participate in any way in issuing combat documents?
25 A. No, not directly in adopting combat documents.
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can I call up 5D1179.
2 Q. And in your bundle, Mr. Rakic, that would be under number P1179.
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It must be a mistake.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Rakic, may I suggest that you look at the document P1179?
7 A. I don't have that document in front of me.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic, the witness is saying that he hasn't
9 got that document in front of him.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in e-court, this
11 document is marked 5D1175; however, the document that Mr. Lasic -- or
12 rather, Rakic should have is erroneously marked P1179. That is our
13 mistake, but he has it in any case.
14 JUDGE KWON: Is it 5D1179 or 75?
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 79.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Rakic, have you managed to find it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't see it.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is there a more practical way of doing
19 this? If we put the -- I don't know if the witness can see or can follow
20 documents from e-court, and I don't know whether -- no, he cannot.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] At any rate, I will quote a part
22 of that document, and I don't think it will be a problem.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Petrusic.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Rakic, I will take you back to an issue that Mr. Zivanovic
1 also asked you about, combat reports. Who made combat reports, both
2 daily and interim?
3 A. The person who directly made them was the duty operations officer
4 and assistant commanders responsible for certain areas; somebody from the
5 organ for logistics and the rear and the personnel man, the assistant for
6 morale and other members of the corps, other commanding officers in the
8 Q. Well, since you don't have the document 5D1179 that I wanted to
9 show you, this is a report from the command of the Drina Corps dated
10 26th of February 1994, number 0/5-109; and the person signed is Milenko
11 Zivanovic, Major-General.
12 It says: "For the purpose of more efficient control and command
13 and with the objective of maximizing assistance lent to subordinate
14 commands, I hereby order, point 2, the duty operations officer of the
15 corps command shall, before drafting the report to the superior command,
16 formulate the proposals made by commanding officers in the corps command
17 by organ ..."
18 And, in brackets, we see, "intelligence personnel, logistics,"
19 et cetera, brackets closed.
20 "... in the course of preparation; and after formulating their
21 report shall read it to the Chief of Staff, make a brief analysis, and
22 only then submit the report for signature."
23 So we can note that Major-General Zivanovic requires, by this
24 order, that either he or the Chief of Staff be the sole persons who can
25 sign such an operations report.
1 So, Mr. Rakic, do you agree with this statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know whether, in the absence of either or both of these
4 from the command, that is, both the commander and the Chief of Staff,
5 anyone else could sign that report, and who?
6 A. Well, that should have been the chief of the operations organ in
7 the corps command, chief of operations.
8 MR PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I don't know, Mr. President, if we
9 still have a problem with the documents provided by the Defence; but if
10 we don't, I'd like to call up 5D1011.
11 That document should be in the bundle of Mr. Rakic.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Rakic, have you found this document?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the documents at all.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: How many folders do you have there? You must have
15 one definitely from the Popovic Defence team; and, as I understand it,
16 maybe one from the Prosecution. I would expect that; and one from the
17 Miletic Defence team. I am beginning to suspect that maybe he is mixing
18 the folders.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Maybe so, Your Honour, because we
20 did communicate to the Registry the binders for these two witnesses that
21 are supposed to testify by videolink.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I have no doubt about that, Madam Fauveau, and I
23 also noticed, I don't know if you did, but at one point he had one folder
24 which he moved aside, then he had a second folder which he moved aside;
25 and it seemed to me that the lady, Deputy Registrar, sitting next to him
1 was going through another folder. So he must have three folders. That's
2 at least what I could notice because I was precisely keeping a watchful
3 eye on what was happening. But I'm not in a position from here to see.
4 Have you identified the folder from the Miletic Defence team?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I still don't have that in front of
7 JUDGE AGIUS: How many folders do you have?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is it, from Mr. Zivanovic.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: You seemed to have another one before. I saw two
10 anyway. That's another one. Who is that from?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is from the operations centre
12 of the Zvornik Brigade, the intercepts.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: That green --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Is yours?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's just the duty officer notebook, translated
17 version, that's clear in case that became an issue; something that we
18 sent along.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And what does the Registrar, the lady, have
20 in her hand?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: She has got another one there.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This should be the folder. This is
24 it. Now I've got the documents.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you so much.
1 Let's proceed now.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So this is document 5D1011. I
3 apologise, 5D1011.
4 Q. It should be a different document. Actually, it should be the
5 second document in the folder.
6 A. 042764969.
7 Q. No, Mr. Rakic. Look at the document from the command of the
9 the document, you will see.
10 A. There is no marking, nothing. I don't have the document.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm addressing the registrar over there.
15 Madam, it seems that the Popovic documents and the Miletic
16 documents have been combined in one folder; although, they are easily
17 identifiable. If you could please try to sort this out, we are going to
18 have a short break. In the meantime, as soon as you have singled out the
19 Miletic Defence documents, please communicate that to us, so that we can
20 restart and continue the sitting.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I correct myself. It seems that the
24 Miletic documents for this witness and for the next one, for
25 Mr. Blagojevic, have been mixed together; and, therefore, one needs to
1 know exactly which ones pertain to this witness and which ones to the
2 next. This is the problem that we have.
3 Yes, Madam Fauveau?
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think this is
5 the problem. First, they were given to the registrar in two different
6 binders; and for each witness, we have a list of documents. The only
7 mistake that occurred is for this witness, but it's just that the "5D"
8 had been turned into "P," but the number itself was correct.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
10 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If the registrar could see if there is a packet
12 from the Prosecution as well --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- because we can had a big packet that we gave.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: The one we saw earlier on, which you said that's
16 from the Prosecution, that was --
17 JUDGE KWON: Maybe the registrar there can address us.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. She is probably --
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is solving the problem in relation to one
21 document isn't the answer. We need to identify all the documents and
22 have them ready.
23 Madam Registrar over there, did you hear and did you follow
24 Mr. McCloskey's intervention?
25 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not proceeding as it should.
2 Madam Registrar, can you hear me?
3 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: But I'm not hearing her.
5 Can you repeat, please?
6 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that all the others that
8 Mr. Petrusic will be referring to, that is, the total amount of all the
9 Miletic documents, are at his disposal. They are now?
10 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
12 And what about the Prosecution documents?
13 THE REGISTRAR: [via Videolink] [No sound]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: But are they available? All right.
15 So let's proceed then. We don't need the break. Okay.
16 Let's carry on, Mr. Petrusic. Sorry for that interruption.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Rakic, you have the document. But before that, please, would
19 the command have to be provided with timely and objective information
20 about the situation on the battlefield through its subordinate units?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Please look at the document 5D1011.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I believe that there should be a
24 translation of this document as well.
25 Q. It was issued by the command of the Drina Corps on the 22nd of
1 June 1994. It's signed by the commander, General Milenko Zivanovic. The
2 title of this document is, "Incomplete regular combat reports, warning."
3 In the first paragraph, the commander says as follows: "As we
4 are following regular combat reports, the command corps is often -- the
5 corps command is often not in a position to form a good picture of the
6 real situation in the area of responsibility of the units. Although, the
7 structure of the reports has been established, comments and remarks are
8 sometimes very superficial, so that when reading the report, one cannot
9 deduce anything about the activities and the focus of work of the brigade
10 commands and their subordinate units. Very often, these reports are not
11 extensive enough, encumbered by enumerations, without any evaluations and
12 conclusions; especially, this concerns the monitoring the activities of
13 the enemy and its intentions.
14 And now we go on: "When it comes to making decisions at a higher
15 level, such reports do not provide us with an opportunity to formulate
16 our own positions and to make decisions that would be of any significance
17 in long term."
18 In other words, their useful value for operations and strategical
19 considerations is next to none.
20 My question to you is this: Did you, and I don't mean personally
21 you, but the command, know anything about such warnings that arrived on
22 the part of the commander?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In other words, the same measures should apply to both regular
25 reports and interim reports.
1 A. Obviously, we are talking about cross purposes.
2 Q. What I'm saying is whatever applies to regular combat reports,
3 their objectivity and timeliness should also have applied to interim
5 A. I wouldn't be able to give you a precise answer.
6 Q. Would the same rules have applied to the interim reports sent to
7 the superior command?
8 A. This order applies exclusively to regular combat reports, not to
9 interim combat reports.
10 Q. Irregardless of this report and independently of it, should the
11 interim combat reports also have contained objective and timely data?
12 A. Yes, they should have contained that.
13 Q. And did the same principle apply to interim combat reports when
14 it came to signing and informing the commander, the Chief of Staff, as
15 was the case with regular combat reports?
16 A. Yes, the same rule applied.
17 Q. Could you please tell us who -- actually, my layman's
18 understanding of the term "duty officer" is that there was just one
19 person involved.
20 Could you tell us whether there was a team on duty, or whether
21 there was just one person. Or maybe just one officer and his assistant?
22 A. In principle, the -- there was just one duty officer in the
23 operations centre and his assistant. And as for the other officers that
24 provided logistical support, there were others, the encryptors and the
25 other personnel, that facilitated communication with the either
1 subordinate or superior units, i.e., the superior commands, with which
2 communication was maintained.
3 Q. In other words, we are talking about the encryptors possibly a
4 courier who would have been engaged for urgent deliveries, a driver
5 perhaps. In other words, there were several persons involved?
6 A. Yes. But when you're talking about those people who were on
7 duty, there was just one duty officer and his assistant.
8 Q. You, as a duty operations officer, were on duty for 12 or 24
9 hours, or up to 1200 or up to 2400 hours; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that would have been the case.
11 Q. After that, you would have been replace bid your assistant; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In the morning, before the duty operations officers handed over
15 duty to somebody else, would he have informed his successor by the
16 assistant of what had happened during the night?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You would enter all the relevant information about the events
19 that happened while you were on duty in the duty operations officer's
20 logbook; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 5D --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you repeat the number, please, Mr. Petrusic?
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 5D1180.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it in front of me.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. This is a document issued by the command of the Drina Corps on
4 17 March 1994
5 Milenko Zivanovic.
6 General Zivanovic calls this document an operative duty warning;
7 and then in paragraph 2, it says -- actually, before, in paragraph 3, it
8 says: "I issued several orders to regulate the operations duty,
9 providing for it to be around the clock."
10 Then it goes on to say that: "On the 17th of March 1994
11 assistant of the duty operations officer of the Drina Corps called the
12 units to check the situation on the front line. He could not get through
13 to any duty officer in any of the units because the switchboard operators
14 did not respond. The conclusion would be that they were sleeping in
16 In addition to that: "Over the past six months, combat reports
17 about the situation in the area of responsibility of the brigades sent to
18 the corps command as a rule is -- are signed by the operations -- duty
19 operations officer."
20 Mr. Rakic, my question is not whether you personally were aware
21 of this order; but, rather, whether you were aware of this phenomenon in
22 command of the Drina Corps, i.e. in the process of reporting to the Drina
24 A. Not directly. But this kind of practice was discontinued, and
25 such reports were signed by the Chief of Staff and the commander.
1 Q. But you are not contesting the fact that there were such cases?
2 A. I can't say anything for a fact, because -- actually, the
3 situation was well known as such.
4 Q. Can we then agree, Mr. Rakic, that the duty of the duty
5 operations officer is one of the most serious duties and tasks in any
6 military, including the army of Republika Srpska?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the course of your duty, for example, on the 16th of July
9 1995, as on any other day, when you were performing that particular duty,
10 did you also perform your regular duty as the chief of informations
12 A. No. But that was because the offices of both were in the same
13 building. If something unusual cropped up, I could always deal with the
14 problems in that department, because the command and the operations
15 centre and the office of the informations department in the corps were in
16 the same building. But to answer your question, the answer would be no.
17 Q. So the rule would be that you would exclusively perform the
18 duties of the duty operations officer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you, as the duty operations officer, have the right to issue
21 orders; and if you did have that right, what orders could you issue?
22 A. No. I just had to coordinate other people's work and convey
23 orders; in other words, I could not issue orders.
24 Q. In other words, you could convey orders that came from your
25 command, from your commander?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I would kindly now ask you to look at document 5D399.
3 A. I have it in front of me.
4 Q. Mr. Rakic, when providing your answers to Mr. Zivanovic's
5 questions, you said that you are an electrical engineer by profession?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I suppose, and this is just my assumption, I suppose that you are
8 very skillful when it comes to working on different computers?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The Drina Corps did have a computer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I also believe that the fact is that very few people were trained
13 to use the computer?
14 A. Yes, you're correct.
15 Q. This document, 5D399, is an order for defence and active combat,
16 OPBR7/1, of the Drina Corps command, dated 8 April 1995.
17 And on the last page of this document, it says that it was
18 drafted by Colonel Milenko Lasic, typed by Ljubo Rakic in two copies; and
19 there is a block signature by Major-General Milenko Lazic.
20 Mr. Rakic, are you the one who typed out this document? Are you
21 the Ljubo Rakic mentioned here?
22 A. Yes, I am.
23 Q. This document was typed out on a computer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was it you who typed it out because you could use the computer,
1 or was there any other reason for that?
2 A. I'm not sure that I can answer your question precisely. I see
3 that there is a marking here, "State Secret." Maybe that's one of the
4 reasons why I typed it out.
5 Q. In other words, in addition to your typing skills, i.e. the fact
6 that you can type, nothing else is yours in this document?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. This document was dictated to you by Colonel Lazic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This document was signed by Milenko Zivanovic; i.e. there is a
11 block signature for Milenko Zivanovic?
12 A. I don't know whether this is that document.
13 Q. When you look at this document, would you say that this is
14 Milenko Zivanovic's document, Commander Milenko Zivanovic's document?
15 A. I have the signed document in front of me. It says: "Commander,
16 Major-General Milenko Zivanovic," but there is no signature as such.
17 Q. There is what we call a block signature. My question to you is
18 whether this is his document or whether this is Lazic's document?
19 A. In subordination, whoever signs the document, it is his document.
20 Q. Very well, Mr. Rakic. Thank you.
21 We have another document which is -- which will bring us to the
22 very end. The document is 5D1184. Again, this document was issued by
23 the command of the Drina Corps, dated 13 March 1994; also issued by the
24 commander, Major-General Milenko Zivanovic.
25 Mr. Rakic, was Milenko Zivanovic the commander of the Drina Corps
1 from the moment of its establishment up to sometime in July 1995?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is an order which in its paragraph 1 says: "Members of the
4 units of Drina Corps, during the holiday of Bajram, will restrain
5 themselves from responding to the provocations of the Muslim army; and
6 they will stick to the level of activities which is called for by the
7 defence in serious attacks."
8 Number 2 says: "Convoys through our territory should pass safely
9 to their destinations, and the convoy escorts should be informed about
10 all the dangers from attacks or provocation that the Muslim side plans in
11 order to accuse us."
12 With regard to paragraph 1 of this order, did you have any
13 information or instructions from your -- let me ask you this first: Is
14 Bajram a religious holiday in Muslims? Are you aware of that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Second of all, did you have any instructions from your command,
17 not only in this case, but also in the case of other religious holidays,
18 Muslim holidays, to refrain from any activities or opening fire?
19 A. There were such instructions.
20 Q. With regard to paragraph 2, do you have any information that
21 there was no ban for convoys with humanitarian aid to pass through in
22 order to reach the Muslim population?
23 A. There was never a ban on their passing through the area of
24 responsibility of the corps.
25 Q. And, finally, if you can remember, could you please tell us who
1 were those people -- can you hear me?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. Who were those people that were on duty in the corps command?
4 What were their establishment positions; i.e., who was it who was not
5 able to be on duty in the corps command?
6 A. If I can remember it well, the security officer was not on duty;
7 the Chief of Staff either, because the duty officer was subordinated to
8 him; and the corps commander. And as for the others, they all should
9 have been on the regular rota of duty office as duty officers or their
11 Q. What about the other assistant commanders, the assistant
12 commander for logistics, was he supposed to be a duty operations officer?
13 A. Yes, he was.
14 Q. Mr. Rakic, I don't have any more questions for you.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this brings my
16 examination to the end. Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
18 Mr. Krgovic, do you have any questions? I suppose not.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: We have no questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa, the same for you?
21 MR. SARAPA: Yes, no questions.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
23 That brings us to you, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You can start your cross-examination.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
3 Q. Hello, sir. My name is Peter McCloskey. I'm with the Office of
4 the Prosecutor, and I'll be asking you a few questions.
5 My first question is: Are you aware of a document that is from
6 March of 1995 that was sent to the Drina Corps, referred to as
7 "Directive 7"?
8 A. The document that Mr. Petrusic has just mentioned arose from that
9 Directive number 7, and I am aware of that on that basis.
10 Q. All right. So you had a chance to read Directive 7 as an officer
11 with the Drina Corps at the time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You're saying you did not read Directive 7?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. Did you type up the Drina Corps version of Directive 7, as you
16 did directive -- the Drina Corps version that you went over with
17 Mr. Petrusic?
18 A. Yes. But the wording of that text was dictated to me.
19 Q. And when you say "dictated," how do you mean dictated? Someone
20 told you orally or were you given the text in front of you?
21 A. An officer dictated it to me. The text was dictated to me. I
22 believe the person who did it was Colonel Lazic.
23 Q. And did he do it orally to you, or did he put the actual paper in
24 front of you for you to type in?
25 A. It was dictated.
1 Q. Did he -- again, did he read it out to you orally, so you typed
2 it up; or did he show you a written document of which to copy?
3 A. I don't have a very clear recollection, but I believe that it was
4 dictated; however, I can't give you a precise answer.
5 Q. And have you had a chance to review the Drina Corps version of
6 that that you typed in, of Directive 7, prior to testifying today?
7 You've obviously seen 7(1); you just talked about it with
8 Mr. Petrusic. Did you see your Drina Corps version Directive 7 that you
9 also typed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you must recall reading the words that you typed on the Drina
12 Corps section that state --
13 A. I remember printing it so --
14 Q. Then you must remember the section in the Drina Corps part of
15 that Drina Corps document that states: "By planned and well-thought-out
16 combat operations, create an unbearable situation of total insecurity
17 with no hope of further survival or life for the inhabitants of
18 Srebrenica and Zepa."
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, before you answer the question.
20 Mr. Petrusic?
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor
22 keeps speaking of a directive of the Drina Corps. It's an order, not a
23 directive. That's the only thing I want to correct. And from now on, we
24 should be talking about an order.
25 JUDGE KWON: Or operative number 7, as translated.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: The same point was raised last week, I think.
2 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've called it the Drina Corps version of
4 Directive 7. I think that's clear. I don't want to --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed anyway. We all know what kind of a
6 document it is.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. So you remember that -- that segment?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You typed it up, right?
11 A. Yes. But it was several pages, and I -- I acted just like a
12 person who types and makes sure that spelling is correct. I didn't go
13 into the contents.
14 Q. Well, let's talk about your memory a little bit. You've just
15 said, earlier, that you recall seeing the intercept between you and
16 Popovic for the first time around the Krstic trial many years ago; is
17 that right?
18 A. Yes. And that document was later posted on the internet.
19 Q. And where were you living in November 1995?
20 A. In Vlasenica. I was in the corps command.
21 Q. Surely, then, you remember the public indictment of Ratko Mladic
22 for the events that occurred in Srebrenica in July 1995.
23 A. I did not see the indictment. I saw it only later. I didn't see
24 it in November 1995.
25 Q. Did you hear about the indictment of Ratko Mladic in November or
1 December 1995?
2 A. I did not.
3 Q. Did you see on television a VRS soldier from the 10th Sabotage in
4 1996 testifying about the mass executions at Branjevo farm, implicating
5 the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So you didn't have any knowledge of the testimony regarding
8 Srebrenica that went out over the air waves or the indictment of General
9 Mladic regarding Srebrenica in 1995 or 1996?
10 A. I didn't say I didn't have any knowledge. I just said that, in
11 1995, I did not have that information. I learned about that later,
12 sometime later.
13 Q. When?
14 A. 1996, 1997. I can't be sure.
15 Q. So, I take it, in 1996, you were aware that The Hague had
16 indicted Ratko Mladic for a case that you were the duty officer for at
17 the Drina Corps, the day that all these events occurred, one of the days?
18 A. No. That was in 1995; 1996 was later.
19 Q. So, when you found out about the indictments and the charges, you
20 knew that you were the duty officer the day that this all happened,
21 didn't you?
22 A. What? What happened on that day? I was aware of combat
23 operations of the Zvornik Brigade in the area of Baljkovica.
24 Q. Nothing else happened on that day, as far as you know, 16 July
1 A. Right.
2 Q. You've had a chance to think about this ever since 1995 or 1996?
3 Remember the days when IFOR was running around Republika Srpska, so was
4 General Mladic, people were being arrested, people were being shot?
5 I'm sure you had a chance to think about where you were on July
6 16th, 1995, didn't you?
7 A. Again, I didn't understand the question.
8 Q. You're not aware that 1200 Muslim men and boys were summarily
9 executed on 16 July 1995
10 A. I was not. In 1995, I didn't know that.
11 Q. When did you first learn of that?
12 A. Much later, from the newspapers mainly. At that time, we found
13 out about things from newspapers.
14 Q. Did you believe it?
15 A. I did not. Numbers are variable. So I did not -- I was not sure
16 about the accuracy of all these numbers that appear in newspapers and
17 various documents shown.
18 Q. Do you believe Muslim men were summarily executed by the VRS
19 after the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995?
20 A. It's possible that something happened; but as far as the details
21 are concerned, I cannot speak of something I'm not entirely sure about,
22 especially the number of victims and such things. It's probably true
23 that there were killings, but I really don't know the details.
24 Q. You have been living in the world like the rest of us. You must
25 have seen the Krstic trial, the Blagojevic trial, portions of this trial
1 that are on television; isn't that right?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And having that in mind --
4 A. Blagojevic, in fact --
5 Q. Okay. And having that in mind and the evidence that was
6 presented all throughout Republika Srpska and Serbia, do you sit here
7 today and tell us that you know nothing about what happened on those
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The witness didn't tell it as Mr. McCloskey
11 interprets his testimony.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
15 Yes, Mr. Josse?
16 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to add this in support of that objection.
17 Whilst this witness doesn't directly impact on our client's case, in our
18 submission, his belief as to what happened is really irrelevant. Anyone
19 can be asked about their belief. It's speculation and doesn't help the
20 matter at all. Whether he knows what happened on that particular day, as
21 the last question suggested, is perfectly legitimate; but the previous
22 question, we suggest, is inadmissible.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You want to proceed with your question,
24 Mr. McCloskey, or do you want to move?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's not -- I would proceed with the questions.
1 This is cross-examination. There is -- given his responses, I don't see
2 one thing wrong with any of these questions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to
5 support fully the objections raised by my colleagues, but I would like to
6 add this: I don't think that this witness can comment on any of the
7 documents or exhibits shown to him that relate to other trials, because
8 he was not involved in these trials. We don't know what he's seen in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, first point.
10 And, second point, we don't know what he actually saw, so I don't
11 think that he can actually say anything about the Krstic and Blagojevic
12 trials, and he certainly cannot comment on these.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't try to testify instead of the witness,
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We have discussed it; and for the time
17 being, we ask you to proceed with answering the question that was put to
18 you. I'm going to read it out.
19 JUDGE KWON: Let him ask the question again.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I was going to read it out. Mr. McCloskey if
21 you wish to put the question again, or to reformulate it. We are talking
22 of lines 23 to 25 on page 57.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Okay, sir, I'll reformulate it. We both know that Krstic and
25 Blagojevic and this trial have been televised in large portions in
1 the RS. The evidence of that trial has been televised. You were living
2 there at the time. Knowing what you know about the evidence that was
3 broadcast to the RS --
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. I think we can go on. I think we got the clear message.
6 Now, you told Mr. Petrusic that the duty officer was one of the
7 most serious duties and tasks in any military. That was especially true
8 in the VRS, wasn't it?
9 A. It was one of the important positions in any army, and in the VRS
11 Q. And like you said, it was your job to know what was going on in
12 subordinate units, such as the Zvornik Brigade, on the 16th of July?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And it's also your job to report that information up to
15 the Main Staff as well, isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In fact, the duty officer, as you've stated, would be the one
18 drafting the regular --
19 A. Can I complete my answer?
20 Q. You can always explain your answers, sir.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think we should let the witness to complete his
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. That's what we are going to do.
25 Mr. Rakic, can you complete your answer, please?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that as far as the report is
2 concerned, yes, but in coordination with the chief, or rather, the
3 commanding officers of the corps who were in charge at the time. When
4 the report is written for the Main Staff, it is done in coordination with
5 the most important COs
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Okay. Let's go to 16 July. General Krstic is the commander.
8 Where is General Krstic on the 16th of July?
9 A. In the area of Zepa.
10 Q. He's leading the combat in very hard-fought battles down in Zepa
11 on the 16th, isn't he?
12 A. According to my information, yes.
13 Q. And who was the Chief of Staff on the 16th?
14 A. Colonel-- or General Svetozar Andric.
15 Q. And he was with General Krstic during those Zepa operations on
16 the 16th of July, wasn't he?
17 A. I don't remember that detail.
18 Q. Well, do you remember him being around the headquarters on 16
20 A. I said I didn't remember whether he was at the forward command
21 post or the command post. I really can't recall that.
22 Q. So, if Krstic wasn't there, and take my word for it, if Andric
23 wasn't there, who would be the senior officer around the Drina Corps?
24 A. It should have been the chief of operations and the assistant
25 commander for logistics.
1 Q. And who was that? Who was the chief of operations at the time on
2 16 July?
3 A. I don't remember the name.
4 Q. Well, describe him for us.
5 A. What?
6 Q. He was a career JNA officer, like yourself. I'm sure you can
7 describe him for us, if you can't remember his name; though, I got to
8 tell you, it's hard for me to imagine you can't remember the guy's name
9 who you worked with.
10 A. Well, first, at that time, certain changes had occurred in
11 organisation, so I don't remember who at that time was acting chief of
12 operations. Some changes had occurred, so that with the best of will, I
13 really cannot remember all the people.
14 Q. Well, we all know there are very few senior officers at the Drina
15 Corps at that time. So why don't you tell us who you think it -- who the
16 possibilities were?
17 A. It could have been Mr. Ignjat Milanovic. That's one possibility.
18 It could have been Mr. Andric, as Chief of Staff. And I don't know,
19 because Mr. Blazojevic had already become commander of the Bratunac
21 Q. Is there some reason why you can't remember Mr. -- or Colonel
22 Cerovic's name?
23 A. Colonel Cerovic was not chief of operations of the corps. He was
24 assistant commander for psychological operations and propaganda, in
25 charge of morale.
1 Q. Was he around on the 16th of July, around the headquarters?
2 A. It's very possible.
3 Q. Now, you also told Mr. Petrusic that a duty officer's job was to
4 receive information about what happened the previous day. Did do you
5 that when you took over duty operations officer for the 16th?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Petrusic?
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] My question to this witness was
9 whether he had received information from his assistant, the next day, not
10 from his predecessor.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Yes. Go ahead. I think you can proceed
12 to your next question in any case.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Okay. So it must have been reported to you that on the 15th of
15 July, Colonel Ljubisa Beara had called the Drina Corps and that he spoke
16 with, first, General Zivanovic and then General Krstic. And he needed
17 more troops to help deal with, the Prosecution's position is, to help
18 murder thousands of Muslim prisoners that were still alive in the Zvornik
19 Brigade area.
20 It's very clear intercepts of those communications. This is
21 information that you needed to know about as duty officer on the next
22 day, wouldn't it have been?
23 A. This is the first I hear of it.
24 Q. Now, duty --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse?
1 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour. Doesn't the witness need a
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Josse.
4 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't want to do anything that may be viewed to
6 intimidate the witness whatsoever, but I think he certainly does.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think, at this point, we better give the
8 caution to the witness. All right?
9 Mr. Rakic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm listening.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We couldn't anticipate, of course, the line of
12 questions and the kind of questions that the Prosecution meant to put to
13 you. And as things are going, our attention has been drawn to the
14 possibility that some questions may be put to you which, if answered
15 truthfully, could expose you to some kind of criminal prosecution. You
16 stand protected against this kind of event under our rules.
17 Our rules provide that if, at any time, questions are put to you
18 that if answered truthfully could expose you, to incriminate you, to
19 expose you to possible criminal prosecution, then you can ask us, the
20 Judges, to exempt you from answering such questions. This is a right
21 that you have, but it is not an absolute right.
22 We have the option of either granting your request and exempting
23 you from answering such incriminatory questions or incriminating
24 questions or to reject your request. If we force you to answer such
25 questions, however, unless your answer, your reply to such questions,
1 constitutes perjury, then I can guarantee you, because the rules
2 guarantee you this right that you have, that whatever you may state in
3 answering such incriminatory questions, if you're forced to answer them,
4 then whatever you state will not be and cannot be used in any proceedings
5 against you.
6 Have I made this clear enough for you to understand?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So, therefore, now be careful.
9 Mr. McCloskey is going to ask you more questions. If at any time you
10 feel subjected to this condition, then you can intervene yourself.
11 Go ahead, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
13 Q. Do you, when you were duty officer, review significant reports
14 that come in through the various subordinate units of the corps, such as
15 the brigades, the 5th Engineering Battalion, things like that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you hear about the regular combat report from the
18 5th Engineering Battalion from 14 --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- July? Hear me out.
21 Did you hear about the report from the 5th -- from the 14th of
22 July, from the Drina Corps 5th Engineering Battalion, where in it was
23 reported that: "Today, they had arrested and killed 1.000 to 1.500
24 Muslims," and they needed more fuel -- they needed fuel to help bury
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This quotation is not correct.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you go further than that? Can you explain why
4 it's not correct?
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is no word "and."
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
7 Yes, Mr. McCloskey, if you want to discuss this in the absence of
8 the witness, we can ask him to remove the headphones.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can go to 65 ter -- we can just go to the
10 document, Mr. President. I was --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Does he have it in his folder or not?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, he does. But given the logistics, I don't
13 know. I can give the 65 ter number. It's 2672. It's page 1 of the
14 English which basically reads precisely as I had stated; and it's page 1
15 of the B/C/S under the top listing, "The enemy."
16 Q. Sir, is anybody able to show that to you? It starts off with,
17 "the Command of the 5th Engineering Battalion," up in the left-hand
19 A. I only have the English version.
20 Q. Check the back. There should be Serbian back there. You see the
21 document I'm talking about?
22 A. Yes, I can see that.
23 Q. That's a regular combat report from the 5th Engineering
25 A. It says "14 July 1995
1 Q. Correct. That information in paragraph 1, you must have been
2 aware of that when you became duty officer on the 16th, right?
3 A. During the takeover of duty, you look at the orders that regulate
4 the activities of the units on that day, and you also look at the reports
5 for the preceding period, for the previous day. This is the obligation.
6 Because of the activities that were taking place at the time and
7 the coordination that ensued from that, because of the combat activities,
8 I did not look at the documents that preceded that. So I was limiting
9 myself to the immediate dates, the days that pertained to the 16th. This
10 is what I looked at, our combat report to the staff of the 15th and the
11 reports that had to do with the 15th of July, nothing before that.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I think it's break time.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's have a break now. How much longer do
14 you --
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll be finished today.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. This means that if the other
17 witness is present over there, he won't be required to testify today.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The second witness is waiting to testify.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why. One further question, Mr. Zivanovic:
23 Do you plan a redirect or not at this moment?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Maybe, maybe. I cannot tell you right now.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic? No, Mr. Petrusic has no redirect.
1 You're right.
2 So let's have a break, 25 minutes. Thank you.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, I want to take you back to your last answer briefly.
8 You, basically, say that when you take over duty, your obligation is to
9 look at -- well, be aware of the day you're taking over.
10 Then you say: "The day that is pertain to the 16th, and this is
11 what I looked at, are combat report to the staff of the 15th and the
12 reports that had to do with the 15th of July, nothing before that."
13 Okay. So the 15th of July is something that you would have
14 focused on, and I'm sure you would have focused on interim combat reports
15 from Vinko Pandurevic from the Zvornik Brigade given the situation up
16 there, right?
17 A. Yes. Are you referring to the 16th, because that's what I'm
18 referring to, the 16th.
19 Q. Sir, you said the 15th in your previous question, that would you
20 look at the 15th as the day before. You want me to read it back to you?
21 A. Can I please see that document? It is possible that I saw it,
22 but --
23 Q. Well, my question was is that you would be focusing on documents
24 or daily combat reports from the 15th, as you've just stated in your
25 previous answer.
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Surely, after all these years and listening to this case, you
3 would have been able to remember being at the brigade command on the 15th
4 when Vinko Pandurevic's interim combat report came in that evening around
5 7.00, 7.25 p.m.
6 A. I can't remember the details of that.
7 Q. You say you know nothing about prisoners in the Zvornik zone, yet
8 surely, sir, you recall when Vinko Pandurevic reported large numbers of
9 prisoners in the schools located in his area that evening?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. May we see this document?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: This document should be etched in everybody's
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Go ahead.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Can you answer the question, sir?
17 A. I can't. I may have seen the document, but I did not pay any
18 attention to the details of this document. I'm not saying that the
19 document didn't arrive. I'm not challenging that. But what I'm saying
20 is that I did not pay much attention to the details of it.
21 Q. But you knew that Vinko Pandurevic was facing thousands of
22 Muslims from his rear, an equal number from his front, and his report of
23 large numbers of Muslims to deal with, as well, certainly would have been
24 something you would have remembered in that context, if for nothing else
25 to assist Mr. Pandurevic.
1 A. The whole communication conducted by the duty operations officer
2 boiled down and the work concentrate on the units from Srebrenica and the
3 possibility to link up with Zvornik from the side of Tuzla, and the whole
4 communication that was conducted by me as the duty operations officer and
5 the duties operations officer at the Zvornik Brigade was dealing with
6 finding a solution to the situation with regards Zvornik, i.e., to remove
7 the threat from Zvornik. That was the focus of the activities and
8 communications that the duty operations officer was focusing on, on that
10 Q. So you're focusing on the 28th Division, but you didn't know that
11 maybe 7.000, 8.000 members of the 28th Division --
12 A. Yes, the part --
13 Q. But you're telling us you didn't know that on 16 July, some
14 7.000, 8.000, maybe more, members of the 28th Division were either dead
15 and buried or waiting to die? You didn't know anything about that?
16 A. We had information about 5.000 to 6.000 fighting men that were on
17 the strength of the 28th Division that you have just mentioned in
18 Srebrenica. That's the part. And the similar group was moving from the
19 direction of Kamenica, or rather, in the direction of the part of the
20 front line of the BiH army corps that was later encountered in
22 Q. Well, let's go to the women and children, then, if you don't know
23 anything about the dead and dying. The women and children of Potocari,
24 the thousands of them, what happened to them on the 12th and 13th? You
25 were at the brigade command right there in Vlasenica.
1 A. Your question is not very precise. The corps command in
2 Vlasenica was the Vlasenica Brigade. So what is your concrete question?
3 As far as that part is concerned, as far as I know, a transport was
4 organised for the children and the women, by appropriate vehicles, and
5 they were all sent in the direction of Kladanj.
6 Q. Which was right past your corps headquarters?
7 A. The distance between the corps command and the road is relatively
8 small, but there is no optical visibility. There is no line of vision
9 between the corps command building in Vlasenica and the road.
10 Q. But you knew that many, many buses were going right by the corps
11 command carrying thousands of women and children and old men, right?
12 A. Transport of women and children or civilians, in general, was
13 organised in the direction of Kladanj. I'm repeating my previous answer.
14 Q. And where were the military-age men that had been with those
15 women and children on the 12th and 13th?
16 A. That part of the column had been formed and was moving towards
17 the front line of the 2nd Corps which was later on where combat
18 activities took place, according to the information that I have.
19 Q. So you're not aware that well over a thousand able-bodied men
20 were separated from their familiar lies, right there in Potocari, right
21 on video. It's on video. It's on video that's been played in this case
22 over the years several times.
23 You were not aware that military-aged men were separated in
24 Potocari; is that what you're telling this Court?
25 A. I did not say that subsequently, when I saw the video footage, I
1 did not see that. But I'm talking about precisely at that particular
2 date, the 16th, July, 1995. I'm talking about that. I'm not talking
3 about what we could see in 1999, 2000, or some other subsequent years.
4 And, second of all, in 1996 -- since 1996, I've not resided in
5 the territory of Republika Srpska, so that a lot of that material was
6 never available to me. I was never in a position to see them, and that's
7 one of the things that you have to bear in mind. Since the month of
8 April 1996, I have not resided in Republika Srpska and have not stayed
9 there for any longer period of time.
10 Q. Let's go to 16 July, then, if you want to go back there, to 65
11 ter 1189A. It's 1189C in the B/C/S. I want to go to page 1.
12 This is and intercept. I believe you went over it briefly. It's
13 from the 16th of July at 1358 hours. This is the intercept that talks
14 about Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic requesting 500 litres of fuel. You've
15 already told us that you didn't know anything about that.
16 So are you saying even though you were duty officer that day, you
17 don't know anything about this 500 litres of D-2?
18 A. If you followed the sequence in the document, he needs somebody.
19 C, answer: "I need the duty officer at Zlatar."
20 So there is no question that there was a connection between him
21 and the duty officer. In this document, you can see that the connection
22 has been rerouted to the duty operations officer. There is no doubt
23 about that.
24 Q. Well, I'll agree with you that it's not clearly involving the
25 duty officer. Clearly, it's involving other folks. It's involving the
1 switchboard operator clearly. It's involving a guy named Basovic
2 clearly, and it's involving a guy named Golic.
3 Let's start with Basovic. Did such a Basovic exist in the Drina
4 Corps at the time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was his job?
7 A. He was in charge of technical services with the logistics
9 Q. So he would handle fuel?
10 A. Yes. Technical services were those that were supposed to
11 regulate the delivery of fuel from the logistics department, with the
12 approval of a superior officer.
13 Q. That was my next question. Basovic, on his own, cannot
14 distribute 500 litres of this very valuable fuel without the approval of
15 a superior officer. What superior officer would that have been at this
17 A. The assistant for logistics, I believe, was Colonel Acanovic, but
18 you should read the document. In one part, it says that some of it has
19 been loaded, 500 litres of oil has already been loaded. So that is
20 probably part of that. Actually, two tonnes have been loaded, and those
21 two tonnes are already on route to Zvornik.
22 Q. Can an assistant commander such as Acanovic -- well, remind us
23 who Acanovic was at the time?
24 A. I believe that he was the assistant for logistics in the corps.
25 I believe that that was his role at the time.
1 Q. As assistant commander for logistics, could he approve on his
2 own, without going to his commander, 500 litres of fuel to go out to a
4 A. If it was part of the planned activities, then it is possible.
5 These two tonnes could have been part of the plan. If not, then he
6 should have consulted the corps commander or the Chief of Staff.
7 Q. Well, given that Popovic is calling up and asking for this fuel,
8 we can see that this plan, that it was not incorporated is immediately
9 part of the plan. So now let's see. We have got Basovic, logistics guy
10 involved; we've got the assistant commander; and we've got his commander.
11 So the assistant, that would have been Krstic or someone else that was in
12 command at the time, right?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you answer that question.
14 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just like to object because Popovic was
16 not part of this conversation. He was not collocutor in this
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can all see that this is involving
20 Popovic, and there is other evidence that I'm referring to where Popovic
21 is calling, asking for this fuel, and that's clearly been established.
22 It's not my intention to bring up every single document and put it on the
23 screen when I refer to it.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You can easily rephrase the question by
1 altering the first two lines, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay thank you.
3 Q. Looking at the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook, there is a
4 notation at ERN 5766 at 1400 hours. This is 65 ter 377, and it says:
5 "At 1400 hours, Popovic requested a bus with a full tank and 500 litres
6 of D-2." Then it says: "Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed."
7 So let's go over a bit who knows about this. First of all, we
8 have got Popovic that calls, according to the Zvornik Brigade duty
9 officer notebook; then there is -- in the intercept of 1189, there is a
10 discussion with Basovic about it; and then it flips on to a discussion
11 with Golic about it.
12 And you can see on the second page of the B/C/S, a reference, it
13 says: "Golic, Pop just called me and told me to contact you. 500 litres
14 of D-2," et cetera, et cetera.
15 So remind us who Golic is, the next participant in this
17 A. From this document, yes.
18 Q. Sorry. You got cut off a bit. Can you tell us who Golic was at
19 the time?
20 A. He was an intelligence officer at the local intelligence organ.
21 Q. Was he present on 16 July in the Drina Corps?
22 A. According to this document, yes.
23 Q. Okay. So, on the 16th, we have a situation where neither Krstic
24 nor Andric are at the corps; they are in Zepa. And we've got a situation
25 with fuel where Basovic knows about it; assistant commander should know
1 about it; their commander should know about it; the intelligence officer,
2 Golic, has been informed.
3 Think back, sir. You remember this?
4 A. What specifically? Can you ask me a specific question?
5 Q. The fuel, what was the fuel used for?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You remember the fuel now, though, don't you?
8 A. No. I only remember from the documents that I see that the fuel
9 was requested. From this document that I'm showing you, your
10 number 5443, I can see that from the two tonnes that were loaded up
11 there, I suppose that is the fuel planned for the Zvornik Brigade,
12 according to this request.
13 Q. Who is Colonel Trkulja?
14 A. I think, at that time, he was in the Main Staff. He's not one of
15 the commanding officers of the Drina Corps, therefore.
16 Q. Do you remember him coming by the Drina Corps on the 16th?
17 A. We did not meet.
18 Q. Do you know what Cerovic meant when he called up the Zvornik
19 Brigade and said: "Trkulja was here, and it's time to do triage on the
20 prisoners," something to that effect?
21 A. No, no. These are questions you should ask of someone else. I
22 don't know.
23 Q. What did you do the next day, 17 July?
24 A. I think I was at the command of the corps, on my regular duties.
25 Q. Let me take you to an intercept. Perhaps this will refresh your
1 recollection. It's 65 ter 1223A. It's 1223C in the B/C/S. First page,
2 it's from 17 July, 1554 hours. Is someone able to show that document to
3 you in Serbian?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you have that document that starts off with: "Hello? Can I
6 help you?" Colonel Cerovic.
7 Then X says: "Tell me, is Colonel Rakic there?"
8 Is that the one you're studying?
9 A. I see that, yes.
10 Q. Okay. Well, just take a minute and read down through there. I
11 think you can see that they are looking for you, and somebody puts you
12 through, and X says, "Hello, Raka."
13 You see that?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. You testified in direct examination that you had two nicknames,
16 Rale and Raka. So does this -- is this you, as far as you can tell?
17 A. Possibly, possibly. I think that -- I think that's me. I think
18 that's me. But this is the 17th. It's possible I was in Zvornik. I
19 wouldn't go as far as to dispute it.
20 Q. Well, tell us where you -- having looked at this, obviously, at
21 1554 hours, you're off somewhere. You're going up there. Perhaps, if I
22 can show you a vehicle log, you'll remember, but why don't you try to
23 remember on your own?
24 A. "Up there" probably means the building of the command in Zvornik,
25 to see Cerovic or something. That's a possibility as such.
1 Q. You think you went to Zvornik to see Cerovic on the 17th?
2 A. No. I mean that I came to Zvornik, for what reason I don't know,
3 but maybe Cerovic asked me to see him.
4 Q. Do you know someone named Radoslav Pantic?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Who is he?
7 A. He was in the Zvornik Brigade in charge of the transport section,
8 or something like that.
9 Q. Well, think about him on the 17th in Zvornik - and I'll show you
10 another document while you're thinking - and see if you can remember what
11 you were doing. Do you remember going to see Pantic on the 17th?
12 A. Well, Pantic was at the building of the command.
13 Q. Sure, he was, but do you remember what you were doing then on the
15 A. No.
16 Q. Well, let's take a look at one last document, 65 ter 295.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's page 117 in the B/C/S. I believe it's --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- 117 in the English.
20 Q. It's just a -- it's a vehicle log from the Zvornik Brigade that
21 shows you the last piece of this puzzle. It's got your name on it and
22 Pantic's; and as you can see, it says it's going from Zvornik to Loznica
23 over in Serbia
24 Can you tell us, did you go to Loznica that day?
25 A. It's possible, because my father was in hospital, had been in
1 hospital for a long time in Loznica. He died very soon after that,
2 unfortunately. It's possible. It's possible that I went to see my
3 father. That's a possibility.
4 So I'm not saying it's not possible; although, I'm not quite
5 sure. But I think that if we went to Loznica, it was to see my sick
6 father in hospital who died soon afterwards. So I'm not saying it's not
8 Q. But you can't remember, not even about your father?
9 A. Well, he had been hospitalised for a long time. I didn't go to
10 see him very often, so it's possible that on that day I did go to see how
11 he was doing. That could be the reason, but I cannot tell you the
12 precise date because it was a really long time ago. It's one of the key
13 reasons why I'm saying this.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 Mr. Zivanovic?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have no questions for the witness, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
19 So, Mr. Rakic, can you see me?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Your testimony ends here, unless my colleagues
22 would like to put questions to you, which is not the case. So we haven't
23 got any further questions for you. I wish to thank you for having
24 accepted to give evidence; and on behalf of everyone, we wish you a safe
25 journey to wherever you are going from there.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start with the exhibits.
4 Mr. Zivanovic?
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We have just two exhibits to tender, and we
6 provided the list for them.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. 1D767 and 1D1167.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection, Mr. McCloskey?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: One minute, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't need the witness any more. So as far as
12 we are concerned, the connection, the videolink connection, can be
13 terminated. Before we do so, I would like also to thank the staff for
14 their assistance in the course of the hearing. All right. So that's
15 gone. [
16 Mr. McCloskey, do you have any objection? I know that there is
17 translation missing.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct. So we do not object, but we
19 would like the -- we have a July 16th document that is not translated. I
20 just -- it's beyond me how we can get this far without a document of this
21 nature translated. It's not translated.
22 So I will not object. We have not objected thus far, but it's
23 continuing to be a problem. A one-page document, at least it was on the
24 list, so we saw it coming. The additional problem is with the next
25 person who cross-examined and provided again one-page documents that we
1 didn't see coming that were not translated, and those were provided at
2 least several days ago to the Registry. So I would be objecting to those
3 documents completely coming in, but I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. I
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Any objection from the other Defence
6 teams? None.
7 So these two documents are admitted. But until they remain or
8 one of them at least remains untranslated, they will be marked for
9 identification only.
10 Miletic Defence team, you have got four documents, Mr. Petrusic;
11 is that correct?
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Three of which have not yet been
14 translated. I'm referring to --
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. They are for identification,
16 5D1179, 5D1180, and 5D1184; whereas, 5D1011 has been translated and
17 should be in evidence.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 Any objection?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm thinking about it, Mr. President. I --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't got much time.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I won't object, but I would ask you to consider
23 revising the order relating to turning over documents. Clearly, they are
24 on cross-examination, so they don't need to give us documents until cross
25 starts. I understand that. However, I would ask that where they know
1 they are going to use documents in cross, in days in advance, like they
2 do here, and if they do not have it translated, that they at least give
3 us the Serbian version of it as soon as they get it. That way, we can
4 determine whether it's the kind of document we need to have translated
5 for cross-examination.
6 When those documents were brought up and used in
7 cross-examination in B/C/S, we are not, as you, none of us know what this
8 is about. We are left to the counsel to read these things. Now, these
9 documents have not turned out to be much, so I have not made a big
11 But I think in a situation where they know what documents they
12 are going to give out, and they can't get it translated in time, that
13 they should at least put us on notice of what Serbian documents they
14 have. I mean, I understand that, in cross, we all bring documents in at
15 the last minute sometimes, and sometimes it can't be translated, but
16 there is no reason that we are left in the dark on something like this.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any further comments or
19 Ms. Fauveau?
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that
21 Mr. McCloskey said last June, on the 6th of June, that during
22 cross-examination, he would not object to the documents that go
23 untranslated. The Defence of General Miletic so far has had one witness,
24 and we have done our utmost to have these documents translated. But if
25 they want the Defence counsel to translate the document and provide an
1 unofficial translation, we are prepared to do so.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So these documents will be admitted.
3 But as regards the last three, 1179, 1182, and 1184, they will remained
4 marked for identification pending translation thereof.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: None, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
8 That concludes the testimony of Mr. Rakic. Tomorrow, we will
9 have the next witness, again once more on videolink. Please make a
10 reassessment of the time requirements; and if you think that we'll finish
11 before the end of the sitting with that witness, then please have the
12 next one here available to start. Okay?
13 Good afternoon.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of June,
16 2008, at 9.00 a.m.