1 Wednesday, 18 June 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [Accused Beara not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So Madam Registrar, good morning to you. And good
7 morning, everybody. Could you kindly call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours and everyone in and
9 around the courtroom. This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor
10 versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Madam. Now, let's start from
13 [Accused Beara enters courtroom]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I should have waited a bit more. He's just entered
15 the courtroom now. So there is nothing else to say in that regard. All
16 the accused are present here.
17 From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon and
18 Mr. Haynes.
19 The Prosecution today, it's Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls,
20 Mr. Vanderpuye, and Mr. Elderkin.
21 So we need to go through the exhibits relating to yesterday's
22 witness. Mr. Zivanovic?
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, good morning to you.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We have no exhibits for this witness. All our
1 exhibits were tendered through Mr. Radic.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, merci. Mr. Petrusic?
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] General Miletic's Defence would
4 like to tender documents 5D1181, 5D1182, 5D1186, 5D1187, all to be marked
5 for identification, and we would also like to tender for admission
6 5DIC 206. I believe that I've given you the right number.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Any objections,
8 Mr. Vanderpuye?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Any objections from any of the other
11 Defence teams? So these are being marked for identification purposes for
12 the time being pending translation following which they will be fully
14 That's it.
15 So yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I actually have some
17 documents I'd like to tender in relation to the witness's --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- cross-examination. We submitted a tender
20 list. I think everybody has it. I'm not sure if the Court has it. You
21 do have it, okay. So there is just 65 ter 2821, 2823, 3407, 3412, 3413,
22 3424 and 3425.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections, Mr. Zivanovic?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No objections, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from any of the other Defence teams?
1 None. They are so admitted, all right.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So that concludes Mr. Blagojevic's testimony. And
4 we can start now with the next witness, who is Branko Bogicevic.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Bogicevic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I welcome you.
9 You've been summoned as a witness by the accused Colonel Popovic, Vujadin
10 Popovic, and before you start your testimony, you're requested under our
11 rules to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth.
12 The text is going to be handed to you now by Madam Usher. Please
13 read the text out loud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: BRANKO BOGICEVIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself
19 comfortable. You are first going to be asked a series of questions by
20 counsel for Colonel Popovic and then we see who else wishes to
21 cross-examine you.
22 Mr. Zivanovic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bogicevic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. First of all, would you please state your full name for the
4 A. Branko Bogicevic.
5 Q. Could you please tell me the year and the place of your birth?
6 A. 1952, on 20th of June, in Djevanje.
7 Q. What municipality is that?
8 A. Zvornik.
9 Q. What is your profession, please?
10 A. I'm a retired driver.
11 Q. Did you participate in the war? Were you mobilised during the
12 war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you please tell us when, during what period of time?
15 A. Between the 20th of July, to the end. Actually, the 22nd of July
16 1992, to the end.
17 Q. Did you have a rank?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you a foot soldier?
20 A. Yes, I was a foot soldier.
21 Q. What did you do during the war?
22 A. All the time I was just driving.
23 Q. In what unit?
24 A. The Zvornik Brigade, the logistics.
25 Q. Who was your immediate superior?
1 A. There were a few of them. And the last one was Radivoje
3 Q. Can you tell me whether it was him or somebody else that you
4 received your tasks from, your orders?
5 A. Radisav Pantic was the one who gave me orders. He was in charge
6 of us drivers. He was the official in charge of transportation.
7 Q. When you say, "For us drivers" --
8 A. I mean the technical services, both the drivers and the
10 Q. I'm now going to show you a travel work order dating back to July
11 1995. This is Prosecution Exhibit 215 -- 295, and the page number is 11.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection, and I apologise for interrupting. I
14 just wanted to tell Your Honours this is a document where a revised
15 translation has been passed out to you. There is a small logistics issue
16 with this exhibit. The reason is it is already in e-court. However, the
17 English translation in e-court had several illegibles written on it and
18 we have revised the translation. It's been passed out to all counsel and
19 I think Mr. Zivanovic agrees with me on this. We have a better English
20 translation now. But for reasons I don't fully understand it was
21 impossible to put it into e-court at this time since it's already there
22 under a different translation so what we were told is to use the English
23 translation on the ELMO, if necessary, and then we would give this
24 another number. I'm sorry to object, to stand up, but that's where we
25 are now.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Not at all. As far as the witness is concerned, he
2 can still see the original document in his own language on e-court. As
3 far as the rest of us who don't understand the language is concerned, we
4 will do as suggested, we'll put the revised translation document on the
6 So Madam Usher, I think you can proceed to put it on the ELMO
7 because I understand that questions are going to be put on this document.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Let's go to page 11, please. Mr. Bogicevic, do you have the
10 document on the screen? The vehicle work log.
11 A. Yes, I can see it.
12 Q. Do you see what period is covered in this document? Maybe the
13 last digit is not really very legible. But --
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, no objection. Just if it helps, we do have
15 the original of this document if my friend decides he wants to use it,
16 he's talking about legibility.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Not necessary if we can agree it's July 1995.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally for your information, both of you, we
19 are not broadcasting this because I'm informed the document is
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, it is not confidential. No.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what Madam Registrar told me.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you verify if it's
25 confidential or not, please?
1 THE REGISTRAR: I will, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We are checking again. In the meantime we will
3 proceed without broadcasting.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe it is not confidential, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's proceed. Let's not waste time.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you see -- or, rather, would you read the type of the
9 A. It's TAM 80.
10 Q. In the same document, can you see your name?
11 A. Yes, I see it.
12 Q. Could you please tell me whether this vehicle was the one that
13 you drove during the relevant period of time, i.e. in July 1995?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you please give us a brief description of the vehicle?
16 What kind of a vehicle was that?
17 A. It is a small lorry with a carrying capacity of 2.5 tonnes.
18 Q. When you look at this first page that is in front of you, can you
19 please tell me whether you were supposed to fill in something on the
20 first page or not?
21 A. No, I wasn't supposed to fill in anything.
22 Q. Do you know who it was who was supposed to fill out the first
23 page? Who was supposed to enter all the data that you see on the first
25 A. It would be the official in charge of us.
1 Q. Can you see that in the lower part of the page that you have in
2 front of you, there is a box with dates and fuel? Could you please tell
3 me who it was who entered the dates and the fuel that you see entered in
5 A. The same official who actually gives you the order to travel
7 Q. Do you remember where you were provided with the fuel when you
8 were supposed to travel somewhere?
9 A. Either in the barracks or at the gas station.
10 Q. Where was the gas station?
11 A. Not far from the barracks, maybe a hundred or 200 metres away
12 from the barracks.
13 Q. Could you please tell us what the rules were when it came to
14 getting fuel for your vehicle?
15 A. When the official told you where you were supposed to go, he
16 would take a notepad and write the quantity that you were supposed to
17 get. Then you go to the person who is supposed to give you that fuel, he
18 looks at the notepad and gives you exactly what's written on there.
19 Q. Before you were provided with fuel, were you always provided with
20 that written certificate or that little notepad with the figure?
21 A. Sometimes it was not done in writing. If you were in a haste, if
22 you needed fuel, then the official would call the person providing you
23 with fuel on the phone and that's how it was done.
24 Q. When you were working with that lorry, what would it be that you
25 transported, in very general terms, roughly?
1 A. Mostly food for the troops, ammunition as well. We cooperated
2 with the police to bring in troops who were deserting and we would also
3 take troops to the line or back to the barracks. And sometimes, not just
4 sometimes but quite often, we would bring our dead from the line to the
5 hospital and then from the hospital to the place of burial.
6 Q. Did you also drive our soldiers? If you did, where did you
7 usually drive them to?
8 A. Well, when there was a shift changeover, then we would take them
9 from their houses to the line and back.
10 Q. Did you also drive some detainees?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I have shown you this vehicle work log to ask you this: As a
13 driver, what was your general obligation when it came to the vehicle work
14 log? Were you supposed to have that all the time or not?
15 A. Every day you had to make a record of what your duty was and what
16 you accomplished.
17 Q. What happens when this vehicle work log is full for one month?
18 What happens to it?
19 A. You hand it over to the official, and every first day of the
20 month you are provided with a new vehicle work log.
21 Q. And that's how it was from the beginning of the war, i.e. from
22 the moment you started working as a driver, or ...
23 A. That's how it was.
24 Q. Once you handed the vehicle work log to the official, when a
25 month is over, would you ever have an opportunity to see those vehicle
1 work logs again?
2 A. No, I didn't have any such opportunity.
3 Q. Well, let's talk about this vehicle work log. When was it the
4 first time you saw it after the war, after you had handed it over to the
5 official in 1995, at the end of July?
6 A. I saw it last year when you showed it to me.
7 Q. Let's go to the following page of this document. Can you
8 recognise your handwriting on this page?
9 A. I can.
10 [Technical difficulty]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. We can proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Bogicevic, I will repeat several questions that you've
14 already answered since they were not entered into the record due to some
15 technical problems.
16 Tell me if you can recognise the handwriting on page 2 of this
18 A. Yes. I can recognise my handwriting.
19 Q. In addition to your handwriting, do you see, and can you
20 indicate, handwriting that is not yours?
21 A. On the right-hand side, I can recognise the signature by Pantic,
22 Radoslav. I don't recognise the other handwriting.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose we need to know which one would that be.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can you indicate for us which of the signatures we can see here
1 is Pantic's? In other words, can you tell us which one is it looking
2 from the top?
3 A. Since he was the man in charge of us, his signature is in the
4 lower, or in the bottom right-hand corner, and then -- it's down there
5 where the stamp should have been.
6 Q. In the bottom right-hand corner?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when you said third, did you mean third from the top?
9 A. The third, the fifth and the seventh.
10 Q. The third, the fifth and the seventh looking from the top?
11 A. Yes, Pantic's signature. I don't recognise the other one.
12 Q. Can you recall who it was who signed these vehicle work logs in
13 addition to Pantic?
14 A. There were several individuals who took turns. I don't recall
15 their names.
16 Q. I'd like to ask you something about a specific entry for the date
17 of the 16th of July. Can you see that? Can you read -- and let's take
18 it step by step. Can you read the hour and the date when you started
19 your trip?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's just to have as precise a
21 transcript as possible, please. I notice, going through the transcript,
22 that he has not yet indicated with precision his own handwriting on this
23 document. He has indicated Mr. Pantic's but not his.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can you tell us once more, aside from the signatures we can see
1 on the right-hand side, who was it who filled out the other columns, such
2 as date, time of start and end of trip, distances, kilometres?
3 A. It was I who filled out all of that, all the way through to the
4 kilometres travelled at the far end here.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation.
7 Q. On the basis of this document, or, rather, do you recall at all
8 having made this trip on the 16th of July 1995, among other places, also
9 to Pilica?
10 A. If that's what is entered here, it means that I did.
11 Q. Let me show you another document now. This is Prosecution
12 Exhibit 291. Do you remember this document? Can you tell us when it was
13 that you saw it for the last time, before coming to The Hague, or I
14 apologise. After 1995, when did you see the document for the first time
15 after 1995?
16 A. I saw it last year when you showed it to me.
17 Q. Look at the very bottom of the document and the right-hand
18 corner. There is a signature there. Can you tell us whose is it?
19 A. That's my signature, and that's how I sign my name in the
20 Cyrillic script.
21 Q. The text which is written in the Latin script and which says
22 "received by Branko Bogicevic," was it also written by you?
23 A. You mean -- what do you mean by me?
24 Q. I put it awkwardly, I suppose. Did you yourself write the
25 lettering which says, "Received by Branko Bogicevic"?
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. You saw this document. Can you tell me, was it you who
3 transported fuel pursuant to this document?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you remember where the fuel was given into your charge?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Do you remember the town or the place where you picked the fuel
8 up? What is it that you don't remember, the place where you took charge
9 of the fuel or --
10 A. You asked me whether I had transported the fuel.
11 Q. Then you must have misunderstood me. My question now is where
12 was it that you took charge of the fuel.
13 A. I don't recall whether this was in the barracks or at the petrol
15 Q. Do you remember where it was you transported the fuel to?
16 A. As it says here, it was taken to Pilica.
17 Q. Can you see the amount of fuel you drove to Pilica, if you can?
18 A. 500 litres were taken there and 140 litres were brought back.
19 Q. Do you remember who ordered you to transport the fuel?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. In view of the fact that you were a driver in that time period,
22 would you be able to tell us who it could have been who might have given
23 you the order?
24 A. Most probably one of the officials, or the desk officers.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Complain all the time on speculation, and this is
1 nothing but speculation.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll withdraw the question.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's there. Let's proceed. You had no objection.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Can you remember in what way the fuel was transported to Pilica?
6 I know that it was trucked there, but what was it -- in what way was it
8 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat his answer?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Zivanovic, the interpreters didn't
10 catch the witness's answer.
11 Mr. Bogicevic, could you kindly repeat your answer, please, to
12 Mr. Zivanovic's question? The question was: Can you remember in what
13 way the fuel was transported to Pilica? I know that it was trucked there
14 but what was it -- in what way was it contained?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Barrels.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can you recall where you got the barrels from?
18 A. I don't recall whether it was in the barracks or at the petrol
20 Q. Do you recall it being decanted when you were there?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, just when he was where? Is this in Pilica
24 or, I didn't understand the decanted, was this in Zvornik or at the
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough, fair enough. Could you specify this
2 with the witness, please? Your question was: Do you recall it being
3 decanted when were you there? Obviously where?
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will repeat my question to
5 make this quite clear.
6 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, where the barrels were filled with
7 fuel before you were supposed to transport them?
8 A. I don't recall if this was in the barracks or at the gas station.
9 Q. Do you recall if you were given a special document to accompany
10 this particular trip which said where you were supposed to take the fuel
11 to or who it was supposed to be given to?
12 A. I don't recall having been given any such document.
13 Q. You had been working as a driver for a long time, transporting
14 various types of goods, as you said. Can you tell me if it ever happened
15 that you had to make a trip without having the attendant piece of paper
16 telling you who to take the goods to and who it was who was supposed to
17 receive the goods and sign for them?
18 A. It would so happen that I would go out into the field
19 transporting foodstuffs without having any sort of document or document.
20 I would deliver the goods and come back. The same went for ammunition.
21 I transported ammunition without any accompanying documentation.
22 Q. Does this mean that you were supposed to have documentation as a
23 rule and then it sometimes so happened that you didn't have any
24 documents? Or was it a rule that you wouldn't have any documentation?
25 A. It would so happen that I would sometimes have documentations and
1 sometimes I wouldn't.
2 Q. Do you recall the location where you delivered the fuel at
4 A. As far as I remember, it was on the way out of Pilica, in the
5 direction of Bijeljina. There was a small bridge there and a group of
6 soldiers. That was where I pulled over.
7 Q. When you were setting out on this trip, did anyone tell you where
8 you were supposed to go and who you were supposed to report to? Did
9 anyone give you any sort of specific instructions?
10 A. I was told to go to Pilica. That's what the vehicle work log
12 Q. Were you told to go to that particular spot you've just described
13 for us, or was it described to you in a different way? Can you remember
14 this at all?
15 A. As far as I remember, I was told to go to Pilica in the direction
16 of Bijeljina.
17 Q. Do you remember -- no, strike that.
18 Were you given the name of a person that you were supposed to
19 contact and deliver the fuel to?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Do you remember who it was that took the fuel over from you?
22 A. The soldiers who were waiting there.
23 Q. How do you know that they were soldiers?
24 A. Our soldiers, they had uniforms, the uniforms of the Republika
25 Srpska army.
1 Q. Can you describe the uniforms for us? Were they camouflage
2 uniforms or just regular army uniforms?
3 A. I really can't remember.
4 Q. Can you please describe the handover of the fuel? The fuel was
5 in the barrels, so how did they go about receiving the fuel from you?
6 A. They had a lot of jerrycans, either made of plastic or metal, and
7 there was a hose that we used to decant the fuel from the barrels into
8 the jerrycans.
9 Q. And the hose, was that their hose, your hose?
10 A. It was theirs.
11 Q. And how long did it last, this decanting of the fuel from the
12 barrels into the jerrycans?
13 A. An hour, an hour and a half perhaps.
14 Q. What happened next? Do you remember what happened once they
15 finished the job, once they had decanted all the fuel?
16 A. I have a vague recollection of the events. When all the
17 jerrycans were full, there was some fuel still left in the barrel, and
18 they were short of jerrycans, and that's how the whole thing ended.
19 Q. When you say that some fuel was left in the barrel, are you
20 referring to the quantity that was returned or something else?
21 A. Yes, the returned quantity. I believe that's what had been left,
22 although they wanted to take that as well. I could not give them the
23 barrel. I had to return the barrel.
24 Q. In other words, does this mean that the fuel that you returned
25 was returned because they did not have enough jerrycans?
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. If I understand you well, they wanted to take all the fuel in the
3 barrel, together with the barrel. Am I right?
4 A. Yes, they wanted to do that but I could not give them the barrel.
5 I had to return all the barrels.
6 Q. Very well, then. Did any one of them sign a piece of paper for
7 you confirming the receipt of the fuel? Did they sign for the receipt of
8 the 360 litres of fuel as specified in the log?
9 A. They could not sign this because I did to the have that document
10 on me.
11 Q. You're talking about the list that you have on the screen right
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did they provide you with another piece of paper? Did they sign
15 anything else for you, any other document, in confirmation of the receipt
16 of the fuel? Do you remember that?
17 A. I don't.
18 Q. At the place where the decanting of the fuel took place, were
19 there any vehicles or a lorry nearby or something of that sort, double
20 parked maybe?
21 A. No, I don't remember. I did not pay much attention, to be
23 Q. When they were left without any jerrycans, did they ask you
24 perhaps to wait until they managed to find some other containers for the
25 rest of the fuel, once you refused to give them the barrel?
1 A. No. Even if they -- if they had done that, I would have waited
2 for them to decant the rest of the fuel.
3 Q. Can you remember -- maybe you can consult the document again, in
4 any case you have already seen the vehicle work log. Can you remember
5 when was it that you left for Pilica with the fuel and when did you come
7 A. As it says in the work log, I returned at 2130 hours.
8 Q. You returned at 2130 hours. How long did it take you to get to
9 Pilica? But let me ask you this first: When you were driving the fuel
10 or on the way back, did you make a pit stop? Did you go somewhere else?
11 Did you spend any time doing something else?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So you went directly to Pilica from Zvornik, and then you
14 returned directly back to the barracks, is that what you're saying?
15 A. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
16 Q. How long did it take you to travel the distance between your
17 starting point, which was Karakaj, to Pilica?
18 A. 30 to 35 minutes, approximately.
19 Q. And was the time the same on the way back?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You have told us how long was your stay over there. But let me
22 ask you this: On that day, did you go to Branjevo at all?
23 A. No.
24 Q. On that day, did you go to Kula or, rather, to the place near
25 Pilica where the Kula school is? That's also the name of the area. Did
1 you go there?
2 A. No.
3 Q. As you were passing through Pilica, did you hear shots or
4 something to that effect or while you were standing in the place where
5 the fuel was being decanted, did you hear any shooting at all?
6 A. No, I didn't hear anything.
7 Q. Since you had passed through Pilica, you know roughly where the
8 culture hall is and the other most important buildings in Pilica. Do you
9 remember whether, on the road or by the road, did you see any dead bodies
10 on the day when you were travelling there or on the way back?
11 A. No, not at all.
12 Q. Did you see any troops in Pilica, a larger group of soldiers or
13 something to that effect or maybe by the road as you were travelling from
14 Zvornik to the place where you decanted the fuel and then back? Did you
15 see any troops, a larger -- a larger group of soldiers of the army of
16 Republika Srpska?
17 A. I did not see a larger number. I just saw some individuals
18 wearing uniforms, but everybody wore uniforms around those days.
19 Q. Tell me, please, did you hear that in the Pilica culture hall, a
20 group of Muslims had been killed and that the same happened in Branjevo,
21 that another group of Muslims had been killed there? Did you ever hear
22 of that?
23 A. No, not in that day. I heard two or three days later, there were
24 rumours to that effect.
25 Q. Did you know then that it happened on that very day when you were
1 transporting the fuel that we are talking about?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Does this mean that you heard but you were not told the exact day
4 when that happened?
5 A. Yes, precisely.
6 Q. Let me ask you another thing. On that day, in addition to the
7 places that are specified in your vehicle work log, did you go to any
8 other places at all? I asked you about Branjevo, Kula and so on and so
9 forth. Can you remember any places that you might have gone to that are
10 not specified in the vehicle work log?
11 A. There were no such places.
12 Q. What you enter into your vehicle work log, does -- did somebody
13 in your unit check that? Did they make sure that the drivers really went
14 where they say that they did, that they were not fabricating data? Did
15 somebody control that?
16 A. Of course. There is no way you could fabricate data. There was
17 no way you could go wherever you wanted to go. You could only go where
18 the vehicle work log sent you to.
19 Q. And somebody checked that. Who was it?
20 A. The desk officers, the officials in charge of us.
21 Q. I failed to ask you another thing. Among the soldiers, did you
22 recognise anybody? Did you know any of the soldiers by sight or
23 personally? I'm talking about the soldiers that took the fuel over from
25 A. No, I did not know any of them.
1 Q. You saw them wearing uniforms. Did you see any officers among
2 them? Somebody with a rank?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did somebody introduce themselves to you? Did somebody want to
5 issue any orders to you? Did somebody attempt to order you to leave the
6 barrel behind, when you said that you couldn't do it? Did somebody try
7 to flex their muscles and pretend they were an officer?
8 A. If somebody had done that, I would have taken it for granted that
9 they were an officer, but nobody did. Nobody made that attempt.
10 Q. Can you remember what you did after the return from Pilica on
11 that day, on the 16th of July?
12 A. When I arrived at the barracks, I parked the lorry and I went to
14 Q. In the document that you have in front of you on the screen, you
15 can see the exact quantity of the fuel that was returned and the quantity
16 is 140 litres. Can you remember when the returned fuel was measured?
17 Was that measured the same day when you returned or maybe later or --
18 A. When I -- since I arrived late, I suppose it must have been done
19 the following day.
20 Q. One more thing, let me ask you. Although you have already
21 answered, but I want to avoid any misunderstandings. The paper that you
22 see on the screen, would that be something that you would take with you
23 when you go on your trips?
24 A. No. I did not take this with me.
25 Q. Does this mean that this document is not taken on the trips, this
1 particular one was compiled later, or does this mean that in this
2 particular case, you did not take it? What would be the rule?
3 A. I don't remember, but on that day, I did not have the document on
5 Q. Were you present when this document was compiled and filled out?
6 A. I was present when I signed for the receipt and when I signed for
7 the fuel that I returned, and this must have been on the following day.
8 Q. Were you present when some of your desk officers entered the
9 text? Not your signature but the rest of the text that you can see in
10 front of you?
11 A. I don't remember. I don't think I was.
12 Q. Would you be able to recognise the signature -- the handwriting,
13 who could have been the desk officer who did it?
14 A. No, I can't recognise the handwriting.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, I'm not quite sure that what the
16 witness is saying is that he doesn't remember that he took this document
17 with him at the time or he's confident he didn't take this document with
18 him at the time.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Can you please answer the Judge's question? Are you sure that on
21 the day you did not have this document on you during the handover of the
23 A. I'm sure I did not have it on me.
24 JUDGE KWON: How can you remember that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw it before it was shown
1 to me by Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Let's just clarify this. There may have been a misunderstanding
4 here. Do you know when this document was actually compiled, when it was
5 drafted? In other words, you said that it was drafted on the following
6 day. Is there anything that can help you conclude that it was compiled
7 or drafted on the following day?
8 A. Most probably because of the fuel that I returned, because before
9 I went on the trip, nobody knew whether I would return any or not.
10 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you remember when you were signing the
11 document, if the document had these words in brackets, saying, "For
12 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic"? Do you remember that being there at the
14 A. I don't remember. I didn't pay attention to that. I only paid
15 attention to the amounts of fuel cited.
16 Q. Did you get in touch with Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic at
18 A. No, never.
19 Q. Tell me, do you know him at all?
20 A. I don't. I don't know him today even.
21 Q. Except for me and members of my team, did you ever speak about
22 these issues to anyone officially, i.e. investigators, lawyers
23 representing others? Did you ever speak to anyone about the events 13
24 years ago?
25 A. No, never.
1 Q. Approximately a month ago, you were informed of the fact that the
2 Prosecution wanted to speak to you. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes, I do. I received a phone call.
4 Q. Can you explain to us the following? Did you respond to that
5 invitation? And if you did not, why not?
6 A. I did not, because you read to me certain documents which said
7 that the fuel that I had transported was used for killings. Nobody asked
8 me anything further.
9 Q. Was this already at the time when you decided to appear as a
10 witness here? What I mean is did you receive this call from the
11 Prosecution at the time when you had already made up your mind to appear
12 here as a witness?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let me ask you this: How did it come about that you remembered
15 this event? And I mean the event that you've just testified about
16 concerning the 16th of July.
17 A. Since this was such a long time ago, I was able to remember on
18 the basis of the two documents that you showed to me. I remembered the
19 fact that I brought back a certain amount of fuel. I remembered having
20 an altercation with the soldiers, who didn't want me to take the fuel
21 that they weren't able to decant back.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogicevic. I have no further questions.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zivanovic, there is one point which is not clear
24 to me. To my question how the witness was able to remember the thing
25 that -- the fact that he didn't take the document with him at the time,
1 he answered that -- it's line 15 on page 14. "I never saw it before it
2 was shown to me by Mr. Zivanovic." But the witness had said that the
3 signature down at the bottom is his. So if he could clarify that?
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, yes, Your Honour, thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogicevic, you told us here that you had
6 signed the document that you can see on the screen right now. You also
7 said that you knew that you had done so on the following day. In answer
8 to my question, you said that you saw this document only once I showed it
9 to you. Can you explain this, the fact that you saw the document at the
10 time when you signed it, that it was there? Or did you mean to say that
11 you saw it really for the first time but for the first time after these
12 events transpired?
13 A. When I was signing the document, I only paid attention to the
14 amounts of fuel cited because I wanted to do what I was responsible for.
15 I didn't look at what was written down below.
16 Q. In other words, when you were signing it, you had the document in
17 front of you, you wouldn't have been able to sign it otherwise?
18 A. I merely signed it. I in this way did what I was supposed to do,
19 and I went away.
20 Q. Tell me, this sort of document, is it something that you normally
21 take with you when you have to, for instance, take fuel to Pilica, or is
22 this document something that is drafted subsequently?
23 A. This document was made after the fuel was delivered. I didn't
24 take it along with me.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
2 Let's now see regarding the other cross-examinations.
3 Mr. Nikolic? Or Mr. Ostojic? Mr. Nikolic?
4 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have
5 no questions of this witness.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Nikolic?
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
8 questions for this witness.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam. Mr. Lazarevic?
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: As we already indicated, we have no questions for
11 the witness.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau?
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Krgovic?
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Nothing.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa, I am informed initially you did not
17 have intention to cross-examine this witness but that now you have
18 changed your mind and you would like about ten minutes. Do you still
19 require the ten minutes?
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Correct. We sought that time
21 yesterday. However, in view of what the witness stated during the
22 examination-in-chief, we have no questions. Thank you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
24 Mr. Nicholls?
25 MR. NICHOLLS: If it's possible, I would prefer to take the break
1 a little bit early and discuss my cross with Mr. McCloskey. I don't
2 think it's going to be too long.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In anticipation of even better news, is the
4 next witness available? He is?
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, he is, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 We'll have a 25-minutes break starting from now. Thank you.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
11 Mr. Bogicevic, Mr. Nicholls, who is appearing for the
12 Prosecution, will be now examining you.
13 And for the record, we have the pleasure of Mr. Bourgon's
14 presence in the courtroom now. Thank you.
15 Mr. Nicholls.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
17 Q. Good morning, sir. Now, let me just clear up a couple things
18 first. You go by the names Branko and Brano; is that right? Because we
19 saw on the materials list for the fuel, P291, that that is filled out as
20 Branko Bogicevic and you signed under that, but on your vehicle log,
21 P295, which you said contained your handwriting, it's the name of the
22 driver is Brano. So you can sometimes be found under both those names;
23 is that right?
24 A. My real name is Branko, but everybody calls me Brano.
25 Q. Okay. And is your father's name Milivoje?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where were you living, say, from 1992 to 1995?
3 A. In Zvornik.
4 Q. Okay. Now, before the war, let's go back a bit, you said you
5 were a driver. You were a driver for Drinatrans; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And during the war did you ever drive buses for
8 Drinatrans, 1992 to 1995? You did, didn't you?
9 A. I worked for Drinatrans until the month of July 1992. I was
10 mobilised in July.
11 Q. Okay. Now, as a bus driver for Drinatrans could you just tell us
12 what routes you drove or where you normally drove, what areas you
14 A. You mean while I worked for Drinatrans?
15 Q. Yes, before July 1992, where did you drive mostly?
16 A. I covered the regular routes.
17 Q. All right. What regular routes? I'm just asking where you drove
18 mostly. Through Zvornik, through Bratunac, your home municipalities?
19 A. Those were the local lines, Zvornik, Kiseljak, Loznica and back.
20 Q. So you're very familiar with that area and the roads?
21 A. Of course. That's where I grew up.
22 Q. Okay. Now, just to make something clear, you talked about how
23 these vehicle logs were filled out on a regular basis and you had to
24 write down where you went and when you came back and that they were
25 accurate, correct? And then I'll ask you some questions about that.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And it's true that when you, as a driver, as a foot soldier, you
3 didn't decide where to transport anything, did you? That was up to the
5 A. Well, of course.
6 Q. They told you where to go, when to go, what to bring?
7 A. Of course. I couldn't do it of my own will.
8 Q. All right. And you've testified that you didn't know anything
9 about Vujadin Popovic back in that time period and you don't even know
10 him now, correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. All right. But let me talk about some of the people you did know
13 at the Zvornik Brigade logistics unit. You knew Captain Sreten
14 Milosevic, correct? Assistant commander for logistics?
15 A. I know him by sight.
16 Q. And you also know him because you worked in logistics and he was
17 assistant commander for logistics, right?
18 A. I don't know about his function. I know him as a person by
20 Q. So you know him now as a person?
21 A. I don't remember when it was that I saw him.
22 Q. And do you remember who the head of technical services was in
23 July 1995 in the Zvornik Brigade?
24 A. I only know Radisav Pantic, since he was our immediate superior.
25 Q. Okay. What about Milenko Krstic?
1 A. I don't know him personally.
2 Q. Okay. But you know he was part of logistics of the Zvornik
4 A. Probably, but I don't know him.
5 Q. Okay. Here is somebody you know, I think, Stevo Gajic.
6 A. I know him.
7 Q. Okay. And what was his job in the Zvornik Brigade in July 1995?
8 A. He was a rather oldish man, and he was the one who decanted fuel.
9 Q. He ran the gas station at Karakaj, correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Even slept there?
12 A. I don't know about that.
13 Q. And do you know a man named Milenko Tomic, another driver? Think
15 A. His family name is familiar. What's his father's name?
16 Q. I couldn't tell you off-hand but he's another driver, drove --
17 worked for Metalno but he drove for the Zvornik Brigade?
18 A. Since I know two colleagues of mine and they have the same first
19 and last names, I don't want to make mistakes.
20 Q. But you know a Milenko Tomic who is a colleague of yours?
21 A. There is another individual with the same first and last name but
22 I do know this Tomic, yes.
23 Q. Okay. And how were you -- so these are the people that you would
24 have had daily contact with in logistics. What about -- do you know who
25 the commander of the 2nd Battalion was in July 1995?
1 A. I don't.
2 Q. Do you know where their headquarters was at that time?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What about the 4th Battalion? Who was commander in July 1995?
5 If you don't know, it's okay.
6 A. Several individuals changed on that position and I don't know who
7 ultimately was commander.
8 Q. Okay. What about the 1st Battalion?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know where the 1st Battalion headquarters was in July
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you know anybody in the 1st Battalion in July 1995 by sight
14 or as a friend?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Okay. Do you know who Slavko Peric is, what his job was in July
18 A. As a driver?
19 Q. No, I'm just asking if you know what that person's job was in
20 July 1995. If you don't know or don't remember, it's okay. It's not
21 meant to be like a quiz.
22 A. Slavko Peric was there, a colleague of mine from the company. He
23 drove a bus from the barracks. Unfortunately he passed away last year.
24 Q. Okay. Let me ask you very quickly now about -- let's move back a
1 MR. NICHOLLS: And could we have P295 up? And we'll need to put
2 the English back on the ELMO. This is pages 11 and 12 in e-court.
3 Q. While that's coming up, let me just confirm that you said you
4 didn't really remember anything about this trip to Pilica or any
5 information about this until your memory was refreshed by the documents
6 that Mr. Zivanovic showed you last year, correct? That was your
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. I want to see if I can maybe help you remember something
10 else. Can you see your vehicle log there in front of you?
11 A. This isn't my work log.
12 Q. No, it's not.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: It should be page 11. Actually, if I could give
14 the witness the original so he can see it.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if my colleague wants to see it
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to see it, Mr. Zivanovic?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honours. I believe the Prosecution.
20 MR. NICHOLLS:
21 Q. Okay. So if you want to, you can look at that original there,
22 sir, and if we could go to page 12 now in the B/C/S, that's the next page
23 for you, and it would also be the next page on the ELMO, excuse me.
24 Now, looking down column 4, which is filled out in your
25 handwriting, we come to the 15th of July 1995, which has Standard, then
1 another word, and then Orahova or Orahovo. Now, look at that, see if
2 that helps you remember. I'd like you to tell us about your trip to
3 Orahovac on the 15th of July which apparently took place pretty much the
4 whole day. Where did you go in Orahovac and why did you go there?
5 A. I don't remember. I probably transported food and troops.
6 Q. And looking at this, it's 9.00 a.m., it looks like, 2130.
7 JUDGE KWON: Before that, Mr. Nicholls, why don't you ask him to
8 read that column, route.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Could you read the whole route you took on the 15th of July,
11 please? That's the fifth entry from the bottom, about. Could you read
12 out for Their Honours where you went that day?
13 A. Yes, yes. "Standard, Kitovnice, Orahovac."
14 Q. Okay. Thank you, and Kitovnice is the IKM, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so you get there by driving through Orahovac and then - I've
17 been there - you drive up these kind of dirt, gravel roads into the
18 hills, right?
19 A. There are asphalt -- there is an asphalted road to Orahovac and a
20 dirt road to Kitovnice.
21 Q. That's -- thank you.
22 Now, what did you see in the area of the school and just past the
23 school in that big field on the left by the water point that day when you
24 were going to Kitovnice? Try to remember.
25 A. I can't remember a single thing. I drove without paying
1 attention to anything.
2 Q. Hmm. Do you know what happened in Orahovac on the 14th of July?
3 Well, really late at night on the 13th but all day on the 14th and into
4 the night on the 14th?
5 A. I don't know anything.
6 Q. Okay. Do you remember what happened at the Orahovac school? Did
7 you ever hear what happened at the Orahovac school and that field nearby
8 during July 1995?
9 A. I don't remember any longer.
10 Q. Okay. Do you remember that all around Zvornik in July 1995,
11 Muslim men were held in schools and then taken out and executed? Do you
12 remember that?
13 A. Several days later, when the radio and TV stations started
14 broadcasting news about it, that was when I learned about it.
15 Q. The reason I ask is that you drove right past the scene of the
16 mass killings at the Orahovac school and the field nearby the day after
17 it happened, while the burials were still going on, so I was wondering if
18 you don't remember that, digging equipment, bodies lying all over the
20 A. I most definitely did not.
21 Q. Okay. I want to move now and ask you -- keep looking at that
22 document; you can look at the one in front of you or the other one -- at
23 the 17th of July, the next day, not the next day from Orahovac but the
24 next day from the trip to Pilica that you discussed. You were on the
25 road from that day from noon
1 you went back to Pilica. Where did you go that day, first of all, it's a
2 compound question, but then, what were you doing in Pilica? Maybe this
3 will help you remember, looking at that document again.
4 A. I don't remember what was that I was transporting. I remember
5 going there but not what I was transporting.
6 Q. Okay. Where exactly did you go?
7 A. As it says here, "Standard, Kruske, Pilica, Zvornik."
8 Q. Where did you go exactly in Pilica?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. And where exactly is Kruske, if you can tell us?
11 A. This is a place on the way to Kamenica.
12 Q. Okay. So the 15th is basically a blank, the 17th is a blank,
13 you've got some recollection about the 16th and we will talk about that
14 in a minute.
15 I'd like to bring 377 up, please. And I -- first of all, I'd
16 like to go to English page 29, B/C/S page 148. I hope that's right. And
17 this should be the version which is 02935619, the complete version, I'm
18 told, of the English.
19 Now, what you're going to see, sir, is the duty officer notebook
20 from the Zvornik Brigade, and since you didn't have any recollection
21 about this trip at all or the times or what happened until you looked at
22 those documents from Mr. Zivanovic, I want to show you this one. Now,
23 first of all, did Mr. Zivanovic show you this document when he met you or
24 when he proofed you? Do you understand the question?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Zivanovic show you this document?
2 A. No.
3 Q. If you look -- this is page 148 in the English, Your Honours.
4 The ERN is 02935766.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not sure that we have the right document. The
6 one we have in English is 5648.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, page 29 of the English. No. Okay. All
8 right. 148 of the English, I'm sorry. There are different versions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But what's the ERN number?
10 MR. NICHOLLS: That's the correct ERN number ending in 02935766,
11 16th of July.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We have it now.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
14 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to read out this entry to you. "At 1400
15 hours Popovic requested a bus with a full tank and 500 litres of D 2.
16 Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed."
17 Do you know what Zlatar stood for in July 1995, what that was
18 code for?
19 A. I was not familiar with all that. I was just a foot soldier,
20 nothing more.
21 Q. All right. Well, that's Drina Corps command, and I won't go
22 through them with you but I'll just tell you that we have in evidence in
23 this case P1189, an intercept which links to this entry in the duty
24 officer notebook. That intercept is from 16 July at the same time, 1358,
25 and in that intercept, the Zvornik Brigade duty officer calls the Drina
1 Corps command, speaks to Pavo Golic, who is an intelligence deputy, and
2 says that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs 500 litres of D 2 fuel
3 immediately and he needs it at Pilica village.
4 And then we have another intercept, 1199, at 1912, that same day,
5 saying that the fuel problem for Zvornik is solved.
6 So now, that's the window from the duty officer notebook, the
7 intercepts talking about the fuel delivery, 2.00 p.m. to 7.00 p.m.
8 that help you remember that it was within that time that you made your
9 trip to Pilica village on 16th of July to deliver that fuel?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: I would just ask my friend to be careful.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I just like to tell that it is problem for
13 Zvornik is solved.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he is trying to correct the transcript. Line
15 20 on page 28 says that same day saying that the fuel problem for Zvornik
16 is solved. That needs to be corrected. Your microphone.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I do not see a point in this question. It is not
18 the same place as --
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Exactly my point, Your Honour. That's a
20 submission and it's argument and it's not a proper objection. If he
21 doesn't see the point of my question he can simply correct it on redirect
22 and if he's --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. Please proceed with your question. Yes,
24 Mr. Zivanovic?
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'd like if the witness could remove his
1 headphones and I'll --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if he understands English first.
3 Do you understand English? Mr. Bogicevic, do you understand
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I ask you to remove your headphones for a
7 while, please?
8 Now, will you be addressing the Chamber in English or in --
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In English, in English.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, go ahead.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This conversation was related to the two tonnes,
12 2.000 litres of fuel for Zvornik, as far as I know, that's it, not for
13 specifically 500 litres for --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Nicholls?
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I don't think I even need to respond
16 to that. There is a duty officer notebook saying there is a problem
17 with -- that Popovic needs fuel immediately, there is an intercept
18 earlier saying that fuel needs to be delivered immediately, at 2.00 p.m.
19 and that there needs to be 500 litres of D 2 going to Pilica village.
20 There is an intercept at 1712 with Basovic, who is one of the people on
21 the earlier intercept, and he says that Zvornik is solved. I think it's
22 a fair inference that it's the Zvornik Brigade problem of the 500 litres.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. This is basically a submission.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Exactly.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You can address if on redirect if you wish to do
1 so, Mr. Zivanovic. In the meantime let's proceed with the question. And
2 it remains a submission at the end of the day because if there is a
3 disagreement amongst you or between you as to which consignment of fuel
4 it refers to, I think we will be in a position to handle it and you will
5 have all the opportunity to make submissions.
6 Mr. Nicholls, if you wish to repeat the question to the witness,
8 You need -- Mr. Bogicevic, can you follow now? Can you hear me?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Would you like to repeat your question?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
12 Q. Sir, what I was asking you about, because you'd stated on your
13 direct examination that all of your recollection of the 16th July trip to
14 Pilica when you delivered this fuel was based on documents and your
15 meeting with Mr. Zivanovic and the proofing session and what he showed
16 you. I'm showing you some more things to try to help you remember the
17 time. We see that you were on the road all day basically on the 16th of
18 July, from your log. What I've shown you now is an entry from 1400 in
19 the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook saying that Vujadin Popovic
20 needs fuel immediately and -- or his work will stop and that he needs 500
21 litres. I've shown -- told you about the intercept --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Mr. Zivanovic, let him finish the question
24 MR. NICHOLLS:
25 Q. I've told you about the intercept at the same time saying that
1 500 litres of D 2 needs to go to Popovic at Pilica village and I've shown
2 you and told you about the intercept at 17 -- at 1912 that same day
3 saying that the fuel problem for Zvornik is solved. Now, that's the
4 window. The notebook, the intercepts, everything shows that this took
5 place between 2.00 p.m.
6 the time of your trip to Pilica village on the 16th?
7 A. I haven't a clue about these conversations. I don't know
8 anything about them.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's not answering the question. The
10 question is the following: Mr. Nicholls has given you this information,
11 which for the time being you need to take exists in the records of this
12 case, and he is asking you whether this helps to jog your memory as to
13 what happened on that particular day, on the 16th.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. So when did you leave for Pilica and when did you arrive there?
17 A. You can see in the vehicle work log, and I've explained just
19 Q. The vehicle work log shows that you were on the road on the 16th
20 of July from 7.00
21 when you arrived at Pilica. I've shown you now that the request for fuel
22 to Pilica came at 2.00 p.m.
23 hours later. When did you bring the fuel to Pilica? If you don't
24 remember, you don't remember. I'm asking if that helps you remember.
25 A. Well, you can see it in the vehicle work log when I returned from
1 Pilica and you can also see -- or so it turns outs that I departed for
2 Pilica at 7.00 in the evening.
3 Q. Okay, let's bring up the vehicle work log, please. And it's
4 P295, page 12 in the B/C/S, page 2 of the English.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We need a clarification here because
6 in your question, if you look at line 8 on page 32, you put to the
7 witness as a time frame 7.00 in the morning to 9.30 in the evening, and
8 he seems to be indicating that from this document, you should or he
9 should or we should be talking of 7.30 in the evening to 9.30 in the
10 evening. There is a great difference between one and the other.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, and that's why I want to show him the log,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then go ahead.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: And the English needs to go on the ELMO, please,
15 page 2 of the English hard copy.
16 Q. Now, you can see, sir, in your vehicle log, just like virtually
17 every vehicle log, the numbering for times is 24 hours. You don't write
18 5.00 p.m.
19 write 4.00 p.m.
20 morning, for the 3rd of July, you write 800, 8.00 a.m. For the 16th of
21 July we've got 700, which is 7.00 a.m., and 2130 which is 9.30 p.m.
22 There is nothing in here that says you left at 7.00 p.m. Are you --
23 correct? You were all the road all day that day. You went to Klisa,
24 Pilica, Zvornik, and then Standard.
25 A. As far as my memory serves me, there was just this trip to
1 Pilica, with the fuel, in the afternoon.
2 Q. Well, Klisa is out to the west of Kozluk, correct?
3 A. Klisa is on the road to Sapna.
4 Q. And you've told us that these were filled out carefully and that
5 they had to be filled out and it's correct that it goes to Pilica, and
6 you haven't answered my question, which is that this indicates that you
7 were on the road from 7.00 a.m.
9 A. But that's correct but not only on the road from Zvornik to
11 Q. And you did not remember anything about this trip, you said,
12 before meeting with Defence counsel and going over the documents they
13 showed you. I'm putting it to you, based on all the other documents that
14 I've told you about, the duty officer notebook I've shown you, you went
15 to Pilica in the afternoon. It was a long time ago, right?
16 A. Yes, of course it was a long time ago.
17 Q. It's possible you were there in the afternoon, isn't it?
18 A. I was only there during the delivery of the fuel. And that could
19 have been after 7.00 in the evening.
20 Q. And what is it hat on this fuel log that tells you it was after
21 7.00 in the evening?
22 A. Well, the -- the vehicle work log, it says I was at the barracks
23 at 2130 so that means that I was in Pilica at the time when it says I
25 Q. Okay. Let's go now -- we'll come back to that -- to P291. Could
1 we get the original? If I could give the witness the original? Now,
2 that's the materials list for the fuel that you brought to Pilica, you
3 testified about that, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Answer so the microphone could hear you.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. I want to see if you know some of the other signatures on this
8 document. Right below where it says 500 and also at the bottom under the
9 box just to the right of the stamp, there is a signature. Do you
10 recognise that signature to be Stevo Gajic's?
11 A. I do not recognise any of the two signatures.
12 Q. He told us that was his signature. Look at it again. I don't
13 know how many times you've seen his signature. Does it help you at all?
14 A. I'm not familiar with his signature at all.
15 Q. And you can see the bottom left under the stamp, it's hard to
16 see, do you see there the signature of Sreten Milosevic? He's also
17 confirmed to us that that's his signature.
18 A. Again, not familiar with the signature.
19 Q. And if we go up to the top, we see the order date of 16 July
20 1995, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then we can see in the middle the writing that 140 litres was
23 returned, correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. It's signed there. And then at the bottom again, in box 38
1 operator, we see the same signature, Stevo Gajic. So he has signed this
2 document twice, right?
3 A. I know nothing of that.
4 Q. You know nothing about it. Well, look at the document.
5 A. The signature is similar but I don't know whose signature it is.
6 Q. Okay. When we interviewed Mr. Gajic, he told us it's his
7 signature. If you take that from me, he has signed the document twice,
8 hasn't he? He signed it when it was issued and he signed for the fuel
9 return because he would normally sign when the fuel was returned,
11 A. It is possible, but I'm not familiar with the guy's signature.
12 Q. Okay. If you went out -- forget about this trip to Pilica. If
13 you went out on a trip to deliver fuel and you came back and you returned
14 fuel, the amount of fuel you returned would be signed for, wouldn't it?
15 There would be a receipt, some paper work, to show that some of the fuel
16 had been returned, correct?
17 A. But there is a paper, here you have it. It says that the fuel
18 was indeed returned.
19 Q. And what I'm asking you, you might not have understood me, is
20 that was the normal practice. Forget about the trip to Pilica. When you
21 went and brought fuel back, it would be signed for because fuel was very,
22 very precious at this time, wasn't it?
23 A. It was precious, indeed, and it is also true that I returned
24 every last litre of it, and I signed this receipt note.
25 Q. All right. And the fuel was precious because it was needed for
1 the war and there wasn't enough to go around and we've seen in other
2 documents problems about running out of fuel, correct?
3 A. Most probably, yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, I want to talk to you again about your trip to Pilica
5 on the 16th. Who sent you on that trip? Who told you you're going to
6 Pilica now? Pantic?
7 A. Can't remember. Could have been him or his second in command or
8 even the third in command. I can't remember.
9 Q. Who was the second and third in command?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It was a wrong translation. He didn't say in
12 command, second in command or third in command. He just said a second or
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's clarify this, not that it makes much
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Actually I'll just withdraw the question.
17 Q. You don't remember who sent you to deliver this 500 litres of
18 D 2?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Just let me do it this way. If it wasn't Pantic, who else would
21 it have been during that time period of July?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Without speculating, without speculating.
23 MR. NICHOLLS:
24 Q. By that what I mean is who else had the authority in your unit to
25 send you out there?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's a better question.
2 MR. NICHOLLS:
3 Q. Sreten Milosevic could have sent you there.
4 A. I don't remember any names. I don't know the people.
5 Q. Look at that receipt in front of you, the materials list, P291,
6 where it's handwritten 1, diesel fuel, fuel issued according to the order
7 of Captain Sreten Milosevic. The assistant commander for logistics could
8 have sent you to deliver fuel to Pilica, couldn't he? Which is exactly
9 what it says on the materials list.
10 A. Believe me, I can't remember.
11 Q. You can't remember who sent you, fine, but Sreten Milosevic, the
12 assistant commander for logistics, could have, he had the authority, he
13 could have sent you on this trip, which according to the document is upon
14 his order?
15 A. He probably could have, but I don't remember.
16 Q. What were your exact instructions of where to go with this 500
17 litres of precious fuel in Pilica? I mean they didn't tell you to go
18 drive around Pilica with it until you found somebody, right? Where did
19 they tell you to go?
20 A. I was told to Pilica.
21 Q. And what were you told would happen when you got to Pilica?
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. Well, okay. Don't speculate, but if you were ordered to deliver
24 500 litres of fuel, forget about this trip, aren't you told who to bring
25 it to? Normally?
1 A. I was told to Pilica and that's where I was waited by soldiers.
2 Q. I understand you testified that you met soldiers there who you
3 didn't know. My question is normally, if you're doing a delivery of
4 something, especially something very, very expensive and important where
5 you had to account, as you said, for every last litre, aren't you told
6 where to bring it to, like any normal delivery man in any system, bring
7 this to this person, to that person, to this unit?
8 A. I wasn't told.
9 Q. Okay. So your testimony is that nobody told you who to give this
10 fuel to when you set out? Just kind of go to Pilica with this fuel?
11 That's your testimony?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I want you to describe the trip when you drove out there for me.
14 Did you see anything unusual on the way, any -- any -- anything stands
15 out in your mind?
16 A. Nothing.
17 Q. Didn't see any combat?
18 A. I didn't.
19 Q. You didn't have an escort to protect you or the fuel?
20 A. I didn't.
21 Q. Okay. And so you drive into Pilica, you come in at the south end
22 of the town and head through there, past the dom, to the bridge, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And along the way, what are you doing while you're in the town?
25 Are you just kind of -- I mean, how do you know where to go with the
1 fuel, what to do with the fuel? You're just looking around seeing if
2 anybody is waving their hands saying, "I need fuel"? Describe it to me.
3 A. I went past Pilica and at the other end, close to a bridge, there
4 was a group of soldiers. That's where the fuel was decanted.
5 Q. My point is, before you got to that bridge, you didn't know where
6 you were going to transfer the fuel or to whom, who you were going to
7 transfer it to?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And you didn't know any of these soldiers at all, correct, who
10 you transferred the fuel to?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And you didn't know anybody in the 1st Battalion at that time.
13 You testified to that, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How much -- how big are these drums of fuel? How much D2 is in
16 each drum?
17 A. There were three barrels or drums, I believe, 200 litres each.
18 And probably 500 litres were decanted into these three drums.
19 Q. Okay. And tell me exactly, you spoke about it a little bit on
20 direct, but exactly how this fuel was transferred to the unknown
21 soldiers, if you can.
22 A. They had jerrycans on them, some were plastic, others metal.
23 Q. Yeah. And how did you get it out of these barrels? You said
24 with a tube. Did you have a pump or a -- just explain to me.
25 A. They just had a plain hose, rubber hose, which was used to decant
1 the fuel from the drum into the jerrycans.
2 Q. And how many soldiers were there doing this?
3 A. Four or five, I believe.
4 Q. And what conversation did you have with them?
5 A. None.
6 Q. None.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. And --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have an indication of how big or small these
10 jerrycans were? Because there are various sizes to my knowledge.
11 MR. NICHOLLS:
12 Q. Yes, could you please answer His Honour's question? How big were
13 the jerrycans you're putting these in?
14 A. I don't know exactly. There were various sizes.
15 Q. M'hm. So it wasn't uniform, just all different kinds of
16 containers that you're transferring this 360 litres of D fuel to at the
17 side of the road with a piece of hose or something?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, what are they doing with these jerrycans? Just -- you
20 haven't described that at all. Stacking them by the road or carrying
21 them into a house, putting them on another vehicle? You didn't talk
22 about seeing any other vehicles. Where is this fuel going?
23 A. It was left there. After we had that altercation about the
24 remaining fuel that they didn't have any containers for, I set off on my
25 trip with the intention of returning the fuel, and they stayed behind.
1 Q. All right. So let me just summarise this a minute and see if you
2 agree with me. We've got the order, the material list dated 16 July,
3 1995, according to the order of Captain Sreten Milosevic, 500 litres of
4 D2 is supposed to go to Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, Drina Corps assistant
5 commander for security. In the duty officer logbook it says that
6 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs 500 litres of D2. In the intercept, it
7 says that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs 500 litres of D2 right away in
8 Pilica village. You go to Pilica village, you bring 500 litres of D2.
9 And you have no idea, nobody has told you, that it's for a Drina Corps
10 assistant commander; is that right?
11 A. I don't know about any conversations. I only know that I made
12 the trip and returned the fuel.
13 Q. All right. And you returned the fuel the next day, 17th? That
14 was your testimony.
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's not his testimony.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think his answer will clarify that. Let him
19 answer the question.
20 Mr. Bogicevic, if could you answer that question, please? When
21 did you return the fuel, on the 16th or on the 17th?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 16th at 2130 hours.
23 MR. NICHOLLS:
24 Q. Okay. And then on -- on the next day you're saying the receipt
25 is signed for the return of the fuel? Is that what happened the next
1 day, you said, because it was late?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that's why Stevo Gajic has signed it twice, right, once on
4 the 16th when the fuel goes out and he signed it again right under where
5 it says for the return, correct?
6 A. It was probably done in the course of the day, but I signed it on
7 the following day, that I had duly returned the fuel.
8 Q. Okay. Now, there has been evidence in this case that in the
9 middle of the day on the 16th of July, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was at
10 the Kula school. Did you go to the Kula school on the 16th of July?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. So you're not sure? Did you go to Branjevo Farm on the 16th of
14 A. No.
15 Q. On the 16th of July, around 500 men were murdered in the Pilica
16 dom when you went by. That was in the afternoon, after 4.00 p.m., a few
17 hours after you -- the call came in from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic to
18 have fuel delivered to him there. Do you not --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon?
20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to
21 note for the record, because my friend is asking a question concerning a
22 phone call that came in from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. Now, if we look
23 in the duty officer's logbook, that's P377 on page 29, nowhere does it
24 say that the call came from a Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. It says
25 Popovic, not Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. That's on page 29, P377.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. What's your comment on
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. The phone call comes in at 1400 that Popovic needs 500 litres of
5 D2. The intercept says Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs D2. You're
6 telling us you're completely unaware about all these killings in Pilica,
7 you were right there?
8 A. I wasn't there at that time. And I don't know about that.
9 Q. On the 17th of July, you went back to Pilica again, right?
10 That's in your log.
11 A. I don't see that.
12 Q. Well, I could show it to you if you want but don't you remember
13 we just looked at it a minute ago? It's page 12 in the B/C/S. This is
14 again P295. We had already talked about this. You went to Pilica again
15 on the 17th of July.
16 Tell me again, what were you doing at Pilica on the 17th of July?
17 Where did you go?
18 A. This probably stands for the transportation of troops, Standard,
19 Kruske, Pilica Zvornik.
20 Q. Right, but you have -- you've already said you don't remember
21 anything about these days. Why do you think that's transport of troops?
22 A. I was reminded of it through the fact that it was entered into
23 the work log. Other than that, I don't remember anything.
24 Q. Although if you'll notice for the --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The witness clearly said probably. It is page
2 44, line 6. This probably stands for the transportation of troops.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the difference between the use of probably
5 and the phrase, the way Mr. Nicholls phrased it? To me it's the same.
6 It is the same, when he says why do you think the transport of troops?
7 That's because he said probably it was the transport of troops.
8 So please proceed with your question.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. If you look at your log on that day, the 17th of July when you
11 think you might have been transporting troops, you'll notice that the
12 amount of people carried is 0.
13 A. This was my error in filling this out.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Because the speculation of the witness. He
15 already told us that it is probably.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, this is cross-examination.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Nicholls.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And unless you have a serious objection,
20 Mr. Zivanovic, please don't interrupt.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay.
22 Q. Again, when we started off, you didn't remember anything about
23 16th of July until you were reminded, you don't remember anything about
24 the 15th of July. On the 7 -- other than my refreshing you where you
25 went. On the 17th of July, even though your log indicates that you
1 didn't transport any people, you now recall that you made an error and it
2 should show that you were transporting people that day?
3 A. This was an error on my part because 25 was entered into the
4 column of tonnes, whereas the truck itself had the carrying capacity of
5 2.5 tonnes. This was an error on my part. This number should have been
6 entered into the column for individuals, people.
7 Q. Maybe the error was that it was 2.5. In any event, let me tell
8 you what was going on at Pilica that day, see if this helps you remember.
9 First of all, when were you at Pilica on the 17th?
10 A. It doesn't say that I went directly to Pilica. I went from
11 Standard to Kruske, Pilica, Zvornik. That's what it says.
12 Q. Try to focus on my question. The question was when were you at
13 Pilica, as in what time?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Don't remember. Well, do you remember that during that day, the
16 bodies which had been murdered, the bodies of the 500, 550 people
17 murdered in the dom the day before, you don't remember seeing anything
18 about; the next day you were there on the 17th, those bodies were taken
19 out of the dom, put on trucks, two trucks, and driven to Branjevo for
20 burial? While you were in Pilica, did you see at the dom, right there in
21 the centre of town, those bodies being loaded on the truck?
22 A. No.
23 Q. We've got evidence in this case, this is at transcript 11326 to
24 11333, that that took some time, it went on until 1500 hours. The
25 witness who was loading bodies on to trucks thought there was about 550
1 and he saw two women among the corpses. Now, Milenko Tomic drove one of
2 those trucks with bodies to Branjevo Farm. Are you sure you don't
3 remember what was going on there that day that you were there with your
5 A. I definitely don't remember, because I stopped in Pilica only
7 Q. Did you have a drink or a cup of coffee there?
8 A. There was none to be had there. Nothing was opened. And I
9 didn't linger there. I only stopped there on the 16th to have the fuel
10 decanted, and then on the 17th, I transported people, and I don't recall
11 at all stopping in Pilica.
12 Q. Well, you just -- I thought you said you did stop there briefly
13 now on the 17th.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we do have a confusion of -- between the
15 16th and the 17th here. Which there shouldn't have been because your
16 question at lines 12 to 18 on page 46 was quite clear.
17 I prefer not to put the question myself.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: May I continue, Your Honour, and I'll try to clear
19 that up.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
21 MR. NICHOLLS:
22 Q. Okay. On your vehicle log, you are in Pilica on the 17th. We
23 have established that. You now remember that were you bringing troops
24 there, you think. And I've told you in my question that up until 3 p.m.
25 1500 hours that day, they were loading the bodies or corpses from the dom
1 and taking them to Branjevo to be buried, all those victims, and I asked
2 you if you remembered any of that and what you were doing there with your
3 truck that day and you said, answer: I definitely don't remember because
4 I stopped in Pilica only briefly. And my question is: I'll wait --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is again misquotation, in the line 12, page
7 47, you now remember that were you bringing troops there.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You think. Well, then you have your --
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: You have -- sorry, sorry.
10 MR. NICHOLLS:
11 Q. Okay. My question is, tell me about this brief stop in Pilica on
12 the 17th. What I was asking you is if you went to the cafe which is
13 right across from the dom on your brief stop?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What did you do during your brief stop?
16 A. I only stopped for the men to disembark the truck, and then I
17 went back immediately.
18 Q. Where? Where did they disembark?
19 A. I don't remember the exact spot.
20 Q. Okay. Do you remember what time it was now, perhaps since I've
21 told you that the empty -- taking the bodies out of the dom lasted until
22 3.00 p.m.
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Now, in 1992, you worked for Drinatrans, correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. As a bus driver?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the head of Drinatrans at that time, I believe, was Bosko
4 Milic, if I pronounce it right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were living in Zvornik then?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember driving Muslim civilians away from Zvornik in
9 1992 in your bus, for exchange, in quotes?
10 A. I don't remember that I did.
11 Q. Think carefully. Do you remember taking busloads of Muslim men,
12 women and children from Kozluk?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He answered the question.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm asking him to remember carefully.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: He is rephrasing the question, adding more
16 information now. Please, Mr. Zivanovic, it has never been our practice
17 to disallow objections, et cetera, but there is a limit, and continuously
18 interrupting counsel during cross-examination is not exactly what we mean
19 to allow, unless it is necessary.
20 Yes, Mr. Bogicevic, if you could answer that question. To the
21 previous question you said "I don't remember that I did." Now
22 Mr. Nicholls is suggesting to you that you may have transported busloads
23 of Muslim men, women and children from Kozluk in 1992 and that the
24 purpose of such transportation was for exchange. Do you remember
25 transporting Muslims?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't remember.
2 MR. NICHOLLS:
3 Q. You had to think about that pretty carefully. I mean, did you
4 ever transport Muslim civilians out of the territory of the RS and you
5 just can't remember if it was Kozluk? We are talking about 1992. During
6 that period of cleansing.
7 Here is another place. Divic. Do you remember taking Muslim
8 civilians from Divic in your Drinatrans bus and then coming back and
9 telling Bosko Milic about it? Do you remember that?
10 A. I remember.
11 Q. Okay. Tell me about that. Tell me about taking these Muslim
12 civilians from Divic and taking them away, when you did that, who told
13 you to do that, where you took them, describe it.
14 A. We drove them to Han Pijesak. We returned to Mimica and they
15 went in direction of Tuzla
16 Q. And at this period what had happened and what was happening to
17 all the mosques in Zvornik municipality when you were taking these
18 civilians away from their homes?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. You don't remember the mosque being destroyed and blown up?
21 A. Later on, it was for all to see, everybody saw.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the relevance of this last series of
24 MR. NICHOLLS: The question is, Your Honour, to show that this
25 individual, this witness, was taking part in the removal of the
1 population at that time and the mosques being blown up at that particular
2 period is part of the permanence of that removal and I was seeing if the
3 witness was aware that at the time he was taking these civilians away,
4 that their places of worship were being destroyed back home. I have no
5 further questions at this time.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Mr. Zivanovic, do you have any
7 re-examination of this witness?
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just a few questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please, go ahead. I see Mr. Sarapa wants to
10 intervene. Mr. Sarapa?
11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I be allowed to
12 put one question to the witness after the cross-examination by the
13 Prosecution? I initially thought I wouldn't have any questions for him
14 but I do now, after the cross-examination.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you remove your headphones for a while, please?
16 Yes, Mr. Sarapa? And what would your question be? Speak in
17 English, please.
18 MR. SARAPA: It's regarding that -- the logbook, for the 17th of
19 July. It's a question of the separate 25 and as -- because the witness
20 said if they were soldiers reported on the 17th of July, he remembered
21 that, and --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please be asked to come
23 closer to the microphone?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa, the interpreters are having difficulty
25 hearing you and so have I, although I don't suffer from hearing loss, so
1 if you could approach the microphone and be more specific about what you
2 would like to ask the question -- the witness?
3 MR. SARAPA: Yes. I want to ask him, in the duty officer
4 notebook, for the 14th, for the 14th, this is -- it is noticed that 25
5 soldiers from the 1st Battalion were -- had to go and be deployed in the
6 region Djevanje Kruske. From the 1st Battalion, this is 25 of them. And
7 yes, it was on the page 127. And I want to ask him whether -- whether
8 these 25 people were those who were transferred back on the 17th of July,
9 and this is what he said that he brought back, 25 soldiers.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sarapa, could you give me the last four digits
11 of ERN?
12 MR. SARAPA: This is ERN 5745. It would have to be the page 127,
13 both in B/C/S and in English.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: That's the 14th of July.
15 MR. SARAPA: Yes, yes, it is.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I thought he said 17.
17 MR. SARAPA: Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: What he's suggesting is there is a record of a
19 request for the transportation of 25 soldiers, such request being made on
20 the 14th of July, and he wishes to know whether possibly these were the
21 25 soldiers that the witness said he may have transported on the 17th of
23 MR. SARAPA: Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, let's make life easier. Are you
25 prepared, are you willing, to adopt the question that Mr. Sarapa would
1 like to put to the witness?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would leave it to Mr. Sarapa.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: You would leave it to Mr. Sarapa but that would
4 create a problem for us because it's -- provided you don't consider it as
5 a precedent for the future.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, sorry, I don't see --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls?
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't see the obvious connection. I think he
9 may throw that out to the witness and be asking him to speculate. I'd
10 object to using the notebook as leading under these circumstances, and
11 there is nothing apparent here from the testimony or the evidence to
12 connect this to his possible travel on the 17th.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is obviously nothing to connect it so far.
14 And this is why Mr. Sarapa, I understand, wants to put the question,
15 trying to possibly connect it.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, if I could give a proposal?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: If we could have a break and I would consult with
20 Mr. Sarapa and eventually put his question in my re-examination.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I withdraw any objection to the
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think we will deal with it. The
25 understanding is, ladies and gentlemen of the Defence, that this should
1 not, and is not meant by us to constitute a precedent. We are allowing
2 it for the time being because we think that if there is doubt, it should
3 be cleared, but for no other reason.
4 Mr. Sarapa, you could put the question to the witness, but first
5 we need to tell him to put on his headphone.
6 Mr. Bogicevic, the gentleman in the back is counsel Sarapa, and
7 he's appearing for General Pandurevic. He would like to put a question
8 to you before Mr. Zivanovic finishes you off with his last barrage of
9 questions on re-examination. Yes, Mr. Sarapa?
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you for allowing me to put the
12 question to the witness. Can the witness please be shown document number
13 P377, page 127? Could we scroll down to the bottom part of the page?
14 Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Bogicevic, could you please look at the last line? It says
16 here the 1st Infantry Battalion, 1100, 25 soldiers, sent to Kamenica,
17 Djevanje, Rijeka
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I finish reading it to the end, the Djevanje Rijeka
19 settlement, transfer tomorrow SDO.
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]SDO.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Maybe --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him finish the question first, please. Yes,
23 Mr. Sarapa?
24 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
25 Q. This is an entry made on the 14th of July. Mr. Bogicevic, do you
1 know where Djevanje is or Rijeka
2 you familiar with the region?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. That was not the question that you
4 wanted to or you told us you wanted to put to the witness. I mean, go
5 straight to the question that you indicated to us, please, and what was
6 your -- why were you standing, Mr. Nicholls? Do you have an objection?
7 MR. NICHOLLS: It was for the date, Your Honour, that he was
8 reading to him but he --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go direct to the question that you told us
10 you wished to put to the witness.
11 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 Q. It says here that 25 soldiers should have been sent into the
13 region. You said that you drove soldiers, on the 17th of July, in
14 response to a Prosecutor's question. Would you allow for the possibility
15 that the 25 soldiers were the ones that are mentioned here, from the 1st
16 Infantry Battalion, that they were the ones that you brought back?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. I thank you. No further questions.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.
20 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
21 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogicevic, I have very short questions,
23 three. Can you please tell me, the lorry that you drove, the TAM 80 that
24 you used to transport the fuel, what was its fuel tank capacity?
25 A. 40 litres.
1 Q. You mean its own fuel tank? It could not receive 500 litres?
2 A. Of course not.
3 Q. Another thing, the Prosecutor asked you about some acquaintances
4 of yours and he asked you about some battalions of the Zvornik Brigade.
5 Do you know which battalions was any of your friends assigned to, the
6 1st, the 2nd or the 3rd?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. And the last thing I would like to clarify in order to avoid any
9 misunderstandings. On the day when you drove the fuel to Pilica on the
10 16th of July, do you still adhere to the fact that you did not go to
11 Branjevo, Kula, or to any other place on that day?
12 A. I am 100 per cent sure of that.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have no further questions, thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Thank you. That brings --
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We don't have any questions from the
17 Bench for you, Mr. Bogicevic, which means that your testimony comes to an
18 end here. I wish to thank you on behalf of the Trial Chamber for having
19 come over to give evidence. And on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe
20 journey back home. You will now receive all the assistance you require
21 from our staff to facilitate your return.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, any documents you wish to tender?
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that both of these documents were already
1 tendered but I'll double check it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Nicholls?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour, other than the revised
4 translation to the portion of P295.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And since that already exists
6 unrevised, I would suggest that you liaise with our staff to make sure
7 what the right numbering should be.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: We'll do that, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will follow the previous practice.
10 We had this before and I can't remember exactly what practice we adopted
11 but Madam Registrar can check. Thank you. We'll have a 25-minute break
12 now and please have the next witness ready. Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I just like to indicate
18 one mistake, one error in the transcript at page 55, line --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Should the witness hear this or not?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He can. He could hear it.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see what the correction is. For the time
22 being, do you mind taking off your headphones, please? Yes.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is page 55, line 9, after the answer of the
24 witness 40 litres, it was my question, "You mean its own fuel tank? It
25 could not receive 500 litres." It is my question --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- and then follows the answer of the witness --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course not.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- "of course not," yeah.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, that needs to be taken care of,
6 lines 9 and 10.
7 Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
8 Okay. You can -- now, Mr. Zivanovic and Mr. Sarapa, Mr. Sarapa,
9 this is also one of your witnesses, isn't he?
10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's our joint witness.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And you are aware of our decision earlier on
12 and your acceptance that he will testify now and that, in other words, as
13 far as you are concerned, you are going to examine him in chief now.
14 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] To avoid him coming again.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jovanovic, good afternoon to you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And on behalf of the Trial Chamber I would like to
20 welcome you to this Tribunal. You've been summoned as a witness by two
21 of the Defence teams, by Colonel Popovic and by General Pandurevic.
22 Mr. Zivanovic for Colonel Popovic will go first. He will ask you a
23 series of questions and then we proceed from there. But before you start
24 giving evidence, our rules require that you make a solemn declaration to
25 the effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the
1 truth and the whole truth. The text has just been handed to you. Please
2 read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: ZORAN JOVANOVIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Jovanovic. Please make yourself
8 comfortable. You will be here for the rest of the sitting today and then
9 you will return again tomorrow so that we continue with the various
10 examinations and cross-examinations.
11 Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovic.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record?
17 A. Zoran Jovanovic.
18 Q. Can you give us the date and place of birth?
19 A. 14 October 1943
20 Q. What can you tell us about your educational background?
21 A. I graduated from the secondary construction school.
22 Q. Can you give us a short overview of your professional background
23 and your current profession?
24 A. I started working at Glinica-Birac factory in 1975 and I worked
25 there until retirement. I'm currently retired.
1 Q. Did you participate in the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. I did.
3 Q. What unit were you attached to?
4 A. From 22 March, I was in a JNA unit, and that was in 1992, and
5 then when the JNA withdrew from Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was in the
6 Zvornik Brigade.
7 Q. Did you have a rank?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What rank was that?
10 A. Major.
11 Q. Were you an active serviceman or a reserve major?
12 A. I was a reserve major.
13 Q. When were you demobilised? Can you please tell us?
14 A. I was demobilised on the 30th November 1996.
15 Q. While you were a member of the Zvornik Brigade, what was your
17 A. At first I was appointed the commander of the 4th Battalion, and
18 immediately after that, when I was removed, I was appointed the deputy
19 commander of the 6th Battalion. After that, I was the commander of the
20 so-called crew forces, and then I was the commander of the reserve
21 battalion which did not have a permanent composition. And then I was
22 with the staff office.
23 Q. Since we are interested in the events that took place in July
24 1995, could you please tell me, at that time what was your establishment
1 A. I was in the staff office at the time.
2 Q. Who was your superior?
3 A. At that time, I was subordinated to the commander.
4 Q. And the office was part of the staff or another department?
5 A. It was part of the staff, as a separate unit, a separate part.
6 Q. Did you have any doings with the Chief of Staff at the time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you subordinated to him as well?
9 A. To be honest with you, I received orders from the Chief of Staff
10 and from the commander, but in my own personal view, I was subordinated
11 to my commander.
12 Q. Can you just briefly describe your duties that you performed in
13 the staff office at that time?
14 A. In the staff office we mostly printed orders or typed orders,
15 depended on the machine. We received mail and registered it. That would
16 have been part of our general services, dealing with the documentation,
17 receiving and dispatching and distributing documentation that we
19 Q. Are we talking about administration work?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Generally speaking, while you were a member of the Zvornik
22 Brigade, did you also perform the duties of the duty officer in the
23 operation centre?
24 A. Yes, I did perform those duties.
25 Q. And what about the forward command post? Did you perform duty
1 office there as well?
2 A. As far as I can remember, and if my memory serves me well, I did
4 Q. Do you remember if one part of your unit, to be more precise, the
5 Zvornik Brigade, participated in operations around Srebrenica?
6 A. I know that they did.
7 Q. Were you assigned to be a member of the group that participated
8 in the operation or not?
9 A. I was not assigned to go to Srebrenica, no.
10 Q. When the army of Republika Srpska entered Srebrenica, do you
11 remember the situation in Zvornik? Can you describe it for us in the
12 shortest outlines, not maybe on the same day when the army of Republika
13 Srpska entered Srebrenica but around that time, during the following next
15 A. As far as I know and as far as I can remember, the situation was
16 rather normal in the town of Zvornik
17 Q. Do you perhaps remember what was happening with the Muslim forces
18 that had been in Srebrenica once the Republika Srpska army entered
20 A. The Muslim forces that had pulled out from Srebrenica were trying
21 to cross over to their own territory, i.e. the Muslim territory in the
22 direction of Tuzla
23 Q. Do you know if those forces ever engaged in fighting with the
24 units of the Republika Srpska army or, to be more precise, with that part
25 of the Zvornik Brigade?
1 A. They did, and it happened at Snagovo. That's where they had
2 their first encounter, as far as I know.
3 Q. And did you have a personal engagement in the units of the
4 Zvornik Brigade that were tasked with encountering those Muslim forces
5 that had been withdrawing from Srebrenica?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember when it was when you first --
8 when you were first engaged? Do you remember the date? Do you remember
9 the circumstances? Can you describe those in just the briefest outlines
10 for us?
11 A. Bearing in mind the date when the corridor was opened at
12 Baljkovica, on the 13th of July I was given my first task, and that was
13 to take the police to Maricici.
14 Q. When you say, "The police," do you mean the civilian or the
15 military police?
16 A. The civilian police.
17 Q. Can you remember the person who gave you that order to take that
18 group to Maricici?
19 A. I received the order from the Chief of Staff, Dragan Obrenovic.
20 He first asked me whether I was familiar with the ground and whether I
21 would be able to take that unit there, even in the dark.
22 Q. What time of day it was when you received the order?
23 A. It was late in the afternoon -- or actually, it was already dark
24 when I received the order. It was at dusk.
25 Q. Do you remember where you were when you received the order from
2 A. I do not recall the exact room but I know that it was in -- on
3 the premises of the brigade command, in the barracks.
4 Q. You're talking Karakaj, aren't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you talk to him personally? In other words, did he
7 personally convey the order to you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You acted upon the order, did you not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How long did you stay in the area to which you were sent in
12 Maricici? How long did you stay there?
13 A. I spent the night in Maricici. I stayed there in the morning.
14 That's when they sent a vehicle to fetch me and bring me back to the
15 barracks where I received a new order.
16 Q. How did you receive this new order to return to the barracks?
17 A. I suppose that I received it via radio communication. That was
18 the only way I could receive it.
19 Q. When you say that a vehicle was sent to pick you up and bring you
20 back to the barracks, do you remember the vehicle, what kind of vehicle
21 was it? Was it a passenger vehicle, a cargo vehicle?
22 A. It was a passenger vehicle.
23 Q. Do you remember who drove the vehicle?
24 A. I really don't remember who the driver was.
25 Q. When we are talking about that vehicle, who else returned besides
2 A. As far as I can remember, I and maybe my escort who had escorted
3 me to Maricici, but I'm not sure. I can't remember.
4 Q. And what about the police unit that you had escorted there? Did
5 they remain in Maricici or what? Did they return perhaps?
6 A. When I escorted the unit there, already during the night they
7 were deployed in the Maricici sector, and they stayed in position.
8 Q. Where did the vehicle take you to exactly, the vehicle that had
9 come to take you back?
10 A. I arrived in the barracks.
11 Q. In Karakaj?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you then learn why you had been summoned back from the field
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who told you?
17 A. Chief Obrenovic told me that I had to get ready to go to Snagovo
18 to link up the police units and the units that were already in Snagovo,
19 and that together we should start scouring the terrain towards Velja
21 Q. Did you receive this order personally from Obrenovic? Did you
22 see him personally? Or was it again via radio or telephone or some other
24 A. It was ordered to me personally.
25 Q. Can you roughly pinpoint the time of day when Obrenovic
1 personally ordered you to take that new mission?
2 A. I can only tell you that it was probably between 10.00 and 12.00,
3 to put it roughly, but I wouldn't be able to give you the exact time.
4 Q. When you say between 10.00 and 12.00, you mean before noon?
5 A. Yes, before noon
6 Q. Did you go to that mission that Dragan Obrenovic had given you?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Where did you go? Who did you go with?
9 A. I went with a group of soldiers. I wouldn't be able to give you
10 their exact number. I went in the direction of Maricici to link up the
11 line from the police in Maricici to the forces in Snagovo. I was
12 supposed to link all of them up and embark on the scouring mission
13 together with all of them.
14 Q. Let me ask you first if you remember how you got to that area.
15 A. I assume that we went on foot, because there is no other way to
16 go across the area beyond Maricici. I'm not sure whether we had some
17 means of transport to Maricici.
18 Q. Can you tell us roughly what the distance between Zvornik, or
19 that's to say the Karakaj barracks, and Maricici?
20 A. Five to six kilometres approximately.
21 Q. Can you describe for us what happened upon your arrival in the
22 Maricici area where you were assigned to go?
23 A. As I was deploying the troops with the intention of linking up
24 the line between Maricici and Snagovo, nothing in particular happened.
25 Things started to happen once we embarked on the scouring mission.
1 Q. Can you just briefly describe what was it that was happening?
2 A. As we descended down to the foot of the Velja Glava, we came
3 within earshot of someone, when one of our men said something out loud,
4 an individual responded out of the forest, "Here I am, Chetnik." We
5 realised it wasn't a small group of people. As we passed through the
6 forest I saw a small group of our soldiers and then a couple of minutes
7 later we heard shooting at the police positions in Maricici.
8 Q. What happened to you and your group that was headed toward Velja
9 Glava? What happened next?
10 A. We lingered in the forest for some 15 to 20 minutes because at
11 that point in time a column of the Muslim army was going past the area.
12 We pulled out toward the old school building at Snagovo.
13 Q. As you left the barracks on the mission you were given by Dragan
14 Obrenovic, did you happen to see him again on that day?
15 A. Yes. I saw him at Snagovo next to the old school building. I
16 saw him and his driver.
17 Q. Can you tell us what time of day it was?
18 A. Past 5.00 p.m.
19 Q. Did you speak to him at all, did he tell you anything, during
20 that encounter? Did you tell him anything?
21 A. He asked me what took me so long, and I replied, "Well, it could
22 have so happened that I didn't come at all."
23 Q. Was that the extent of your conversation with Obrenovic at the
25 A. That was practically it. We didn't discuss the action itself in
1 detail because at the time one approximately knew how many Muslim
2 soldiers could be found in that area.
3 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember or do you know if you discussed
4 prisoners in any way with Obrenovic at the time? Did you provide him
5 with any information on prisoners?
6 A. Prisoners were not discussed at the time. At that point I was
7 not aware of the prisoners either being there or how many of them were
9 Q. So you did not provide him with any information on prisoners or
10 persons who brought prisoners along, if anybody did, or anything of the
12 A. I was not able to. At that point, I had not yet come across
14 Q. How long did you stay in conversation with Obrenovic when you saw
15 him that day at Snagovo?
16 A. Briefly. I was told to spend the night there, since we did not
17 know what was going to happen next. We parted ways and went to the area
18 where we were billeted next to the new school building. This wasn't that
19 close. I don't know, and I wouldn't be able to tell you, where he went.
20 I went to the building where soldiers and I were billeted and spent the
21 night there.
22 Q. Tell me, were you given an assignment or an order as to what you
23 were supposed to do next on the following day?
24 A. Yes. I was told that I should come down to Orahovac with some of
25 the forces that were adjacent to me.
1 Q. Do you recall who gave you the order to go to Orahovac?
2 A. I think I received the order over the radio. I believe so.
3 Q. What was the purpose of your going to Orahovac? Do you recall
4 what the mission was for you and your soldiers connected with your
5 departure for Orahovac?
6 A. The purpose of my going to Orahovac along with some soldiers was
7 to secure some features around Orahovac and to secure the Orahovac-Crni
8 Vrh section of the road. I wasn't supposed to secure the entire section
9 of the roadway. I was only supposed to secure the Orahovac bit.
10 Q. On that day, or the day before, did you see a column or traces
11 left by the column?
12 A. On the 15th, as we set out toward Orahovac, I saw two trails some
13 three metres wide perhaps. I say "perhaps." No grass was left on the
14 ground. It was stamped down as if it had been trodden upon by a herd of
16 Q. Did you say elephants?
17 A. Yes, as if, as if a herd of elephants had passed through the
18 area. The grass was otherwise very high, and the trail they left led
19 toward Baljkovica and onwards. I don't know where. But the grass had
20 been flattened. Imagine you have a patch of grass that hadn't been cut
21 for several years and then suddenly it was flattened. That's why I had
22 this idea of a herd of elephants passing there, as if a herd of elephants
23 had been passing across the area.
24 Q. Can we clarify? The spot that you saw, the traces of the column,
25 was that at Orahovac or elsewhere?
1 A. That was at Snagovo.
2 Q. As you arrived in Orahovac on that day, did you happen to see
3 dead bodies?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you see freshly dug-out earth?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How long did you stay at Orahovac? Or can you first tell us what
8 time of day it was when you arrived in Orahovac?
9 A. I arrived in Orahovac in the morning hours. I wouldn't be able
10 to give you the exact hour. And I stayed there until the 16th, the
11 evening of the 16th, when I went back to the barracks.
12 Q. Can you tell us where you spent that night in Orahovac?
13 A. It was a private home belonging to an active policeman from
14 Zvornik, close to Nedjo's cafe, if I can put it that way. And it was
15 outside that house that I spent the night.
16 Q. Were you on your own on the occasion, or was there someone else
17 with you who spent the night in front of that house?
18 A. The individuals accompanying me, the signalmen, couriers, and
19 others, did.
20 Q. Were you given an assignment that day or possibly the following
22 A. I didn't receive a single assignment on that day. I received one
23 on the following day, the 16th. The assignment was for me to secure the
24 Orahovac-Crni Vrh road. I was told that 60 soldiers were being deployed
25 my way, to allow me to secure the road.
1 Q. Do you recall the way in which this assignment was conveyed to
3 A. It was radioed to me. The order came from the commander, Vinko
4 Pandurevic. At the time, he ordered that I secure the road and that
5 prisoners, if any were to be taken, should be kept alive at all costs. I
6 asked him, "What do you mean at all costs?" And he replied, "Well,
7 you'll see that for yourself how that should be ensured." And then I
8 realised that he meant that I was supposed to shoot anyone of my soldiers
9 if they happened to kill any prisoners.
10 Q. During your stay in Orahovac, on the 15th and the 16th, did you
11 see any prisoners at all?
12 A. Yes. I saw four prisoners that one of my groups captured.
13 Q. Were they Muslims?
14 A. Yes, they were.
15 Q. Were they armed or not?
16 A. One of them had a hunting rifle on him. The other three were not
18 Q. Upon seeing the four prisoners, did you do anything? And if so,
19 can you tell us what?
20 A. I complied with the service rules, which said that when soldiers
21 are captured, basic information should be received from them, and then
22 they should be forwarded to one's command. This is something that I did.
23 I took a TAM vehicle, a couple of soldiers with me, who escorted these
24 prisoners to the command, and I was subsequently informed that they had
25 been taken there.
1 Q. Did I understand you correctly that they were supposed to be
2 forwarded to your command?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In other words, to Karakaj?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think we'll have to leave it there for today.
7 Our time is up. We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
8 Witness, we have a very important rule here that when a witness
9 hasn't finished his or her testimony, you must not, under any
10 circumstances, communicate with anyone or allow anyone to communicate
11 with you to discuss the subject matter of your testimony. So between
12 today and tomorrow, you have to honour this commitment that I have just
13 mentioned to you. Okay. Thank you.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of June,
16 2008, at 9.00 a.m.