Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22349

 1                           Wednesday, 18 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [Accused Beara not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So Madam Registrar, good morning to you.  And good

 7     morning, everybody.  Could you kindly call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours and everyone in and

 9     around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor

10     versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you so much, Madam.  Now, let's start from

12     here.

13                           [Accused Beara enters courtroom]

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  I should have waited a bit more.  He's just entered

15     the courtroom now.  So there is nothing else to say in that regard.  All

16     the accused are present here.

17             From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon and

18     Mr. Haynes.

19             The Prosecution today, it's Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls,

20     Mr. Vanderpuye, and Mr. Elderkin.

21             So we need to go through the exhibits relating to yesterday's

22     witness.  Mr. Zivanovic?

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, good morning to you.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We have no exhibits for this witness.  All our

Page 22350

 1     exhibits were tendered through Mr. Radic.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, merci.  Mr. Petrusic?

 3             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] General Miletic's Defence would

 4     like to tender documents 5D1181, 5D1182, 5D1186, 5D1187, all to be marked

 5     for identification, and we would also like to tender for admission

 6     5DIC 206.  I believe that I've given you the right number.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.  Any objections,

 8     Mr. Vanderpuye?

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Any objections from any of the other

11     Defence teams?  So these are being marked for identification purposes for

12     the time being pending translation following which they will be fully

13     admitted.

14             That's it.

15             So yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I actually have some

17     documents I'd like to tender in relation to the witness's --

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- cross-examination.  We submitted a tender

20     list.  I think everybody has it.  I'm not sure if the Court has it.  You

21     do have it, okay.  So there is just 65 ter 2821, 2823, 3407, 3412, 3413,

22     3424 and 3425.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections, Mr. Zivanovic?

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No objections, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from any of the other Defence teams?

Page 22351

 1     None.  They are so admitted, all right.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  So that concludes Mr. Blagojevic's testimony.  And

 4     we can start now with the next witness, who is Branko Bogicevic.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Mr. Bogicevic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I welcome you.

 9     You've been summoned as a witness by the accused Colonel Popovic, Vujadin

10     Popovic, and before you start your testimony, you're requested under our

11     rules to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth.

12             The text is going to be handed to you now by Madam Usher.  Please

13     read the text out loud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  BRANKO BOGICEVIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself

19     comfortable.  You are first going to be asked a series of questions by

20     counsel for Colonel Popovic and then we see who else wishes to

21     cross-examine you.

22             Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bogicevic.

Page 22352

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   First of all, would you please state your full name for the

 3     record?

 4        A.   Branko Bogicevic.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell me the year and the place of your birth?

 6        A.   1952, on 20th of June, in Djevanje.

 7        Q.   What municipality is that?

 8        A.   Zvornik.

 9        Q.   What is your profession, please?

10        A.   I'm a retired driver.

11        Q.   Did you participate in the war?  Were you mobilised during the

12     war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you please tell us when, during what period of time?

15        A.   Between the 20th of July, to the end.  Actually, the 22nd of July

16     1992, to the end.

17        Q.   Did you have a rank?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Were you a foot soldier?

20        A.   Yes, I was a foot soldier.

21        Q.   What did you do during the war?

22        A.   All the time I was just driving.

23        Q.   In what unit?

24        A.   The Zvornik Brigade, the logistics.

25        Q.   Who was your immediate superior?

Page 22353

 1        A.   There were a few of them.  And the last one was Radivoje

 2     Obradovic.

 3        Q.   Can you tell me whether it was him or somebody else that you

 4     received your tasks from, your orders?

 5        A.   Radisav Pantic was the one who gave me orders.  He was in charge

 6     of us drivers.  He was the official in charge of transportation.

 7        Q.   When you say, "For us drivers" --

 8        A.   I mean the technical services, both the drivers and the

 9     mechanics.

10        Q.   I'm now going to show you a travel work order dating back to July

11     1995.  This is Prosecution Exhibit 215 -- 295, and the page number is 11.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, and I apologise for interrupting.  I

14     just wanted to tell Your Honours this is a document where a revised

15     translation has been passed out to you.  There is a small logistics issue

16     with this exhibit.  The reason is it is already in e-court.  However, the

17     English translation in e-court had several illegibles written on it and

18     we have revised the translation.  It's been passed out to all counsel and

19     I think Mr. Zivanovic agrees with me on this.  We have a better English

20     translation now.  But for reasons I don't fully understand it was

21     impossible to put it into e-court at this time since it's already there

22     under a different translation so what we were told is to use the English

23     translation on the ELMO, if necessary, and then we would give this

24     another number.  I'm sorry to object, to stand up, but that's where we

25     are now.

Page 22354

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Not at all.  As far as the witness is concerned, he

 2     can still see the original document in his own language on e-court.  As

 3     far as the rest of us who don't understand the language is concerned, we

 4     will do as suggested, we'll put the revised translation document on the

 5     ELMO.

 6             So Madam Usher, I think you can proceed to put it on the ELMO

 7     because I understand that questions are going to be put on this document.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Let's go to page 11, please.  Mr. Bogicevic, do you have the

10     document on the screen?  The vehicle work log.

11        A.   Yes, I can see it.

12        Q.   Do you see what period is covered in this document?  Maybe the

13     last digit is not really very legible.  But --

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, no objection.  Just if it helps, we do have

15     the original of this document if my friend decides he wants to use it,

16     he's talking about legibility.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Not necessary if we can agree it's July 1995.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Incidentally for your information, both of you, we

19     are not broadcasting this because I'm informed the document is

20     confidential.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, it is not confidential.  No.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what Madam Registrar told me.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Registrar, could you verify if it's

25     confidential or not, please?

Page 22355

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  I will, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are checking again.  In the meantime we will

 3     proceed without broadcasting.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  I believe it is not confidential, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, let's proceed.  Let's not waste time.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you see -- or, rather, would you read the type of the

 8     vehicle?

 9        A.   It's TAM 80.

10        Q.   In the same document, can you see your name?

11        A.   Yes, I see it.

12        Q.   Could you please tell me whether this vehicle was the one that

13     you drove during the relevant period of time, i.e. in July 1995?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you please give us a brief description of the vehicle?

16     What kind of a vehicle was that?

17        A.   It is a small lorry with a carrying capacity of 2.5 tonnes.

18        Q.   When you look at this first page that is in front of you, can you

19     please tell me whether you were supposed to fill in something on the

20     first page or not?

21        A.   No, I wasn't supposed to fill in anything.

22        Q.   Do you know who it was who was supposed to fill out the first

23     page?  Who was supposed to enter all the data that you see on the first

24     page?

25        A.   It would be the official in charge of us.

Page 22356

 1        Q.   Can you see that in the lower part of the page that you have in

 2     front of you, there is a box with dates and fuel?  Could you please tell

 3     me who it was who entered the dates and the fuel that you see entered in

 4     here?

 5        A.   The same official who actually gives you the order to travel

 6     somewhere.

 7        Q.   Do you remember where you were provided with the fuel when you

 8     were supposed to travel somewhere?

 9        A.   Either in the barracks or at the gas station.

10        Q.   Where was the gas station?

11        A.   Not far from the barracks, maybe a hundred or 200 metres away

12     from the barracks.

13        Q.   Could you please tell us what the rules were when it came to

14     getting fuel for your vehicle?

15        A.   When the official told you where you were supposed to go, he

16     would take a notepad and write the quantity that you were supposed to

17     get.  Then you go to the person who is supposed to give you that fuel, he

18     looks at the notepad and gives you exactly what's written on there.

19        Q.   Before you were provided with fuel, were you always provided with

20     that written certificate or that little notepad with the figure?

21        A.   Sometimes it was not done in writing.  If you were in a haste, if

22     you needed fuel, then the official would call the person providing you

23     with fuel on the phone and that's how it was done.

24        Q.   When you were working with that lorry, what would it be that you

25     transported, in very general terms, roughly?

Page 22357

 1        A.   Mostly food for the troops, ammunition as well.  We cooperated

 2     with the police to bring in troops who were deserting and we would also

 3     take troops to the line or back to the barracks.  And sometimes, not just

 4     sometimes but quite often, we would bring our dead from the line to the

 5     hospital and then from the hospital to the place of burial.

 6        Q.   Did you also drive our soldiers?  If you did, where did you

 7     usually drive them to?

 8        A.   Well, when there was a shift changeover, then we would take them

 9     from their houses to the line and back.

10        Q.   Did you also drive some detainees?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   I have shown you this vehicle work log to ask you this:  As a

13     driver, what was your general obligation when it came to the vehicle work

14     log?  Were you supposed to have that all the time or not?

15        A.   Every day you had to make a record of what your duty was and what

16     you accomplished.

17        Q.   What happens when this vehicle work log is full for one month?

18     What happens to it?

19        A.   You hand it over to the official, and every first day of the

20     month you are provided with a new vehicle work log.

21        Q.   And that's how it was from the beginning of the war, i.e. from

22     the moment you started working as a driver, or ...

23        A.   That's how it was.

24        Q.   Once you handed the vehicle work log to the official, when a

25     month is over, would you ever have an opportunity to see those vehicle

Page 22358

 1     work logs again?

 2        A.   No, I didn't have any such opportunity.

 3        Q.   Well, let's talk about this vehicle work log.  When was it the

 4     first time you saw it after the war, after you had handed it over to the

 5     official in 1995, at the end of July?

 6        A.   I saw it last year when you showed it to me.

 7        Q.   Let's go to the following page of this document.  Can you

 8     recognise your handwriting on this page?

 9        A.   I can.

10             [Technical difficulty]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  We can proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Bogicevic, I will repeat several questions that you've

14     already answered since they were not entered into the record due to some

15     technical problems.

16             Tell me if you can recognise the handwriting on page 2 of this

17     document.

18        A.   Yes.  I can recognise my handwriting.

19        Q.   In addition to your handwriting, do you see, and can you

20     indicate, handwriting that is not yours?

21        A.   On the right-hand side, I can recognise the signature by Pantic,

22     Radoslav.  I don't recognise the other handwriting.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  I suppose we need to know which one would that be.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you indicate for us which of the signatures we can see here

Page 22359

 1     is Pantic's?  In other words, can you tell us which one is it looking

 2     from the top?

 3        A.   Since he was the man in charge of us, his signature is in the

 4     lower, or in the bottom right-hand corner, and then -- it's down there

 5     where the stamp should have been.

 6        Q.   In the bottom right-hand corner?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And when you said third, did you mean third from the top?

 9        A.   The third, the fifth and the seventh.

10        Q.   The third, the fifth and the seventh looking from the top?

11        A.   Yes, Pantic's signature.  I don't recognise the other one.

12        Q.   Can you recall who it was who signed these vehicle work logs in

13     addition to Pantic?

14        A.   There were several individuals who took turns.  I don't recall

15     their names.

16        Q.   I'd like to ask you something about a specific entry for the date

17     of the 16th of July.  Can you see that?  Can you read -- and let's take

18     it step by step.  Can you read the hour and the date when you started

19     your trip?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Let's just to have as precise a

21     transcript as possible, please.  I notice, going through the transcript,

22     that he has not yet indicated with precision his own handwriting on this

23     document.  He has indicated Mr. Pantic's but not his.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you tell us once more, aside from the signatures we can see

Page 22360

 1     on the right-hand side, who was it who filled out the other columns, such

 2     as date, time of start and end of trip, distances, kilometres?

 3        A.   It was I who filled out all of that, all the way through to the

 4     kilometres travelled at the far end here.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation.

 7        Q.   On the basis of this document, or, rather, do you recall at all

 8     having made this trip on the 16th of July 1995, among other places, also

 9     to Pilica?

10        A.   If that's what is entered here, it means that I did.

11        Q.   Let me show you another document now.  This is Prosecution

12     Exhibit 291.  Do you remember this document?  Can you tell us when it was

13     that you saw it for the last time, before coming to The Hague, or I

14     apologise.  After 1995, when did you see the document for the first time

15     after 1995?

16        A.   I saw it last year when you showed it to me.

17        Q.   Look at the very bottom of the document and the right-hand

18     corner.  There is a signature there.  Can you tell us whose is it?

19        A.   That's my signature, and that's how I sign my name in the

20     Cyrillic script.

21        Q.   The text which is written in the Latin script and which says

22     "received by Branko Bogicevic," was it also written by you?

23        A.   You mean -- what do you mean by me?

24        Q.   I put it awkwardly, I suppose.  Did you yourself write the

25     lettering which says, "Received by Branko Bogicevic"?

Page 22361

 1        A.   No, no.

 2        Q.   You saw this document.  Can you tell me, was it you who

 3     transported fuel pursuant to this document?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you remember where the fuel was given into your charge?

 6        A.   I don't remember.

 7        Q.   Do you remember the town or the place where you picked the fuel

 8     up?  What is it that you don't remember, the place where you took charge

 9     of the fuel or --

10        A.   You asked me whether I had transported the fuel.

11        Q.   Then you must have misunderstood me.  My question now is where

12     was it that you took charge of the fuel.

13        A.   I don't recall whether this was in the barracks or at the petrol

14     station.

15        Q.   Do you remember where it was you transported the fuel to?

16        A.   As it says here, it was taken to Pilica.

17        Q.   Can you see the amount of fuel you drove to Pilica, if you can?

18        A.   500 litres were taken there and 140 litres were brought back.

19        Q.   Do you remember who ordered you to transport the fuel?

20        A.   I don't remember.

21        Q.   In view of the fact that you were a driver in that time period,

22     would you be able to tell us who it could have been who might have given

23     you the order?

24        A.   Most probably one of the officials, or the desk officers.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Complain all the time on speculation, and this is

Page 22362

 1     nothing but speculation.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'll withdraw the question.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's there.  Let's proceed.  You had no objection.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you remember in what way the fuel was transported to Pilica?

 6     I know that it was trucked there, but what was it -- in what way was it

 7     contained?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat his answer?

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Zivanovic, the interpreters didn't

10     catch the witness's answer.

11             Mr. Bogicevic, could you kindly repeat your answer, please, to

12     Mr. Zivanovic's question?  The question was:  Can you remember in what

13     way the fuel was transported to Pilica?  I know that it was trucked there

14     but what was it -- in what way was it contained?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Barrels.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you recall where you got the barrels from?

18        A.   I don't recall whether it was in the barracks or at the petrol

19     station.

20        Q.   Do you recall it being decanted when you were there?

21        A.   I don't recall.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, just when he was where?  Is this in Pilica

24     or, I didn't understand the decanted, was this in Zvornik or at the

25     destination.

Page 22363

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough, fair enough.  Could you specify this

 2     with the witness, please?  Your question was:  Do you recall it being

 3     decanted when were you there?  Obviously where?

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will repeat my question to

 5     make this quite clear.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, where the barrels were filled with

 7     fuel before you were supposed to transport them?

 8        A.   I don't recall if this was in the barracks or at the gas station.

 9        Q.   Do you recall if you were given a special document to accompany

10     this particular trip which said where you were supposed to take the fuel

11     to or who it was supposed to be given to?

12        A.   I don't recall having been given any such document.

13        Q.   You had been working as a driver for a long time, transporting

14     various types of goods, as you said.  Can you tell me if it ever happened

15     that you had to make a trip without having the attendant piece of paper

16     telling you who to take the goods to and who it was who was supposed to

17     receive the goods and sign for them?

18        A.   It would so happen that I would go out into the field

19     transporting foodstuffs without having any sort of document or document.

20     I would deliver the goods and come back.  The same went for ammunition.

21     I transported ammunition without any accompanying documentation.

22        Q.   Does this mean that you were supposed to have documentation as a

23     rule and then it sometimes so happened that you didn't have any

24     documents?  Or was it a rule that you wouldn't have any documentation?

25        A.   It would so happen that I would sometimes have documentations and

Page 22364

 1     sometimes I wouldn't.

 2        Q.   Do you recall the location where you delivered the fuel at

 3     Pilica?

 4        A.   As far as I remember, it was on the way out of Pilica, in the

 5     direction of Bijeljina.  There was a small bridge there and a group of

 6     soldiers.  That was where I pulled over.

 7        Q.   When you were setting out on this trip, did anyone tell you where

 8     you were supposed to go and who you were supposed to report to?  Did

 9     anyone give you any sort of specific instructions?

10        A.   I was told to go to Pilica.  That's what the vehicle work log

11     said.

12        Q.   Were you told to go to that particular spot you've just described

13     for us, or was it described to you in a different way?  Can you remember

14     this at all?

15        A.   As far as I remember, I was told to go to Pilica in the direction

16     of Bijeljina.

17        Q.   Do you remember -- no, strike that.

18             Were you given the name of a person that you were supposed to

19     contact and deliver the fuel to?

20        A.   I don't remember.

21        Q.   Do you remember who it was that took the fuel over from you?

22        A.   The soldiers who were waiting there.

23        Q.   How do you know that they were soldiers?

24        A.   Our soldiers, they had uniforms, the uniforms of the Republika

25     Srpska army.

Page 22365

 1        Q.   Can you describe the uniforms for us?  Were they camouflage

 2     uniforms or just regular army uniforms?

 3        A.   I really can't remember.

 4        Q.   Can you please describe the handover of the fuel?  The fuel was

 5     in the barrels, so how did they go about receiving the fuel from you?

 6        A.   They had a lot of jerrycans, either made of plastic or metal, and

 7     there was a hose that we used to decant the fuel from the barrels into

 8     the jerrycans.

 9        Q.   And the hose, was that their hose, your hose?

10        A.   It was theirs.

11        Q.   And how long did it last, this decanting of the fuel from the

12     barrels into the jerrycans?

13        A.   An hour, an hour and a half perhaps.

14        Q.   What happened next?  Do you remember what happened once they

15     finished the job, once they had decanted all the fuel?

16        A.   I have a vague recollection of the events.  When all the

17     jerrycans were full, there was some fuel still left in the barrel, and

18     they were short of jerrycans, and that's how the whole thing ended.

19        Q.   When you say that some fuel was left in the barrel, are you

20     referring to the quantity that was returned or something else?

21        A.   Yes, the returned quantity.  I believe that's what had been left,

22     although they wanted to take that as well.  I could not give them the

23     barrel.  I had to return the barrel.

24        Q.   In other words, does this mean that the fuel that you returned

25     was returned because they did not have enough jerrycans?

Page 22366

 1        A.   Exactly.

 2        Q.   If I understand you well, they wanted to take all the fuel in the

 3     barrel, together with the barrel.  Am I right?

 4        A.   Yes, they wanted to do that but I could not give them the barrel.

 5     I had to return all the barrels.

 6        Q.   Very well, then.  Did any one of them sign a piece of paper for

 7     you confirming the receipt of the fuel?  Did they sign for the receipt of

 8     the 360 litres of fuel as specified in the log?

 9        A.   They could not sign this because I did to the have that document

10     on me.

11        Q.   You're talking about the list that you have on the screen right

12     now?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did they provide you with another piece of paper?  Did they sign

15     anything else for you, any other document, in confirmation of the receipt

16     of the fuel?  Do you remember that?

17        A.   I don't.

18        Q.   At the place where the decanting of the fuel took place, were

19     there any vehicles or a lorry nearby or something of that sort, double

20     parked maybe?

21        A.   No, I don't remember.  I did not pay much attention, to be

22     honest.

23        Q.   When they were left without any jerrycans, did they ask you

24     perhaps to wait until they managed to find some other containers for the

25     rest of the fuel, once you refused to give them the barrel?

Page 22367

 1        A.   No.  Even if they -- if they had done that, I would have waited

 2     for them to decant the rest of the fuel.

 3        Q.   Can you remember -- maybe you can consult the document again, in

 4     any case you have already seen the vehicle work log.  Can you remember

 5     when was it that you left for Pilica with the fuel and when did you come

 6     back?

 7        A.   As it says in the work log, I returned at 2130 hours.

 8        Q.   You returned at 2130 hours.  How long did it take you to get to

 9     Pilica?  But let me ask you this first:  When you were driving the fuel

10     or on the way back, did you make a pit stop?  Did you go somewhere else?

11     Did you spend any time doing something else?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   So you went directly to Pilica from Zvornik, and then you

14     returned directly back to the barracks, is that what you're saying?

15        A.   Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

16        Q.   How long did it take you to travel the distance between your

17     starting point, which was Karakaj, to Pilica?

18        A.   30 to 35 minutes, approximately.

19        Q.   And was the time the same on the way back?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You have told us how long was your stay over there.  But let me

22     ask you this:  On that day, did you go to Branjevo at all?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   On that day, did you go to Kula or, rather, to the place near

25     Pilica where the Kula school is?  That's also the name of the area.  Did

Page 22368

 1     you go there?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   As you were passing through Pilica, did you hear shots or

 4     something to that effect or while you were standing in the place where

 5     the fuel was being decanted, did you hear any shooting at all?

 6        A.   No, I didn't hear anything.

 7        Q.   Since you had passed through Pilica, you know roughly where the

 8     culture hall is and the other most important buildings in Pilica.  Do you

 9     remember whether, on the road or by the road, did you see any dead bodies

10     on the day when you were travelling there or on the way back?

11        A.   No, not at all.

12        Q.   Did you see any troops in Pilica, a larger group of soldiers or

13     something to that effect or maybe by the road as you were travelling from

14     Zvornik to the place where you decanted the fuel and then back?  Did you

15     see any troops, a larger -- a larger group of soldiers of the army of

16     Republika Srpska?

17        A.   I did not see a larger number.  I just saw some individuals

18     wearing uniforms, but everybody wore uniforms around those days.

19        Q.   Tell me, please, did you hear that in the Pilica culture hall, a

20     group of Muslims had been killed and that the same happened in Branjevo,

21     that another group of Muslims had been killed there?  Did you ever hear

22     of that?

23        A.   No, not in that day.  I heard two or three days later, there were

24     rumours to that effect.

25        Q.   Did you know then that it happened on that very day when you were

Page 22369

 1     transporting the fuel that we are talking about?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Does this mean that you heard but you were not told the exact day

 4     when that happened?

 5        A.   Yes, precisely.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you another thing.  On that day, in addition to the

 7     places that are specified in your vehicle work log, did you go to any

 8     other places at all?  I asked you about Branjevo, Kula and so on and so

 9     forth.  Can you remember any places that you might have gone to that are

10     not specified in the vehicle work log?

11        A.   There were no such places.

12        Q.   What you enter into your vehicle work log, does -- did somebody

13     in your unit check that?  Did they make sure that the drivers really went

14     where they say that they did, that they were not fabricating data?  Did

15     somebody control that?

16        A.   Of course.  There is no way you could fabricate data.  There was

17     no way you could go wherever you wanted to go.  You could only go where

18     the vehicle work log sent you to.

19        Q.   And somebody checked that.  Who was it?

20        A.   The desk officers, the officials in charge of us.

21        Q.   I failed to ask you another thing.  Among the soldiers, did you

22     recognise anybody?  Did you know any of the soldiers by sight or

23     personally?  I'm talking about the soldiers that took the fuel over from

24     you.

25        A.   No, I did not know any of them.

Page 22370

 1        Q.   You saw them wearing uniforms.  Did you see any officers among

 2     them?  Somebody with a rank?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did somebody introduce themselves to you?  Did somebody want to

 5     issue any orders to you?  Did somebody attempt to order you to leave the

 6     barrel behind, when you said that you couldn't do it?  Did somebody try

 7     to flex their muscles and pretend they were an officer?

 8        A.   If somebody had done that, I would have taken it for granted that

 9     they were an officer, but nobody did.  Nobody made that attempt.

10        Q.   Can you remember what you did after the return from Pilica on

11     that day, on the 16th of July?

12        A.   When I arrived at the barracks, I parked the lorry and I went to

13     bed.

14        Q.   In the document that you have in front of you on the screen, you

15     can see the exact quantity of the fuel that was returned and the quantity

16     is 140 litres.  Can you remember when the returned fuel was measured?

17     Was that measured the same day when you returned or maybe later or --

18        A.   When I -- since I arrived late, I suppose it must have been done

19     the following day.

20        Q.   One more thing, let me ask you.  Although you have already

21     answered, but I want to avoid any misunderstandings.  The paper that you

22     see on the screen, would that be something that you would take with you

23     when you go on your trips?

24        A.   No.  I did not take this with me.

25        Q.   Does this mean that this document is not taken on the trips, this

Page 22371

 1     particular one was compiled later, or does this mean that in this

 2     particular case, you did not take it?  What would be the rule?

 3        A.   I don't remember, but on that day, I did not have the document on

 4     me.

 5        Q.   Were you present when this document was compiled and filled out?

 6        A.   I was present when I signed for the receipt and when I signed for

 7     the fuel that I returned, and this must have been on the following day.

 8        Q.   Were you present when some of your desk officers entered the

 9     text?  Not your signature but the rest of the text that you can see in

10     front of you?

11        A.   I don't remember.  I don't think I was.

12        Q.   Would you be able to recognise the signature -- the handwriting,

13     who could have been the desk officer who did it?

14        A.   No, I can't recognise the handwriting.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zivanovic, I'm not quite sure that what the

16     witness is saying is that he doesn't remember that he took this document

17     with him at the time or he's confident he didn't take this document with

18     him at the time.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Can you please answer the Judge's question?  Are you sure that on

21     the day you did not have this document on you during the handover of the

22     fuel?

23        A.   I'm sure I did not have it on me.

24             JUDGE KWON:  How can you remember that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw it before it was shown

Page 22372

 1     to me by Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Let's just clarify this.  There may have been a misunderstanding

 4     here.  Do you know when this document was actually compiled, when it was

 5     drafted?  In other words, you said that it was drafted on the following

 6     day.  Is there anything that can help you conclude that it was compiled

 7     or drafted on the following day?

 8        A.   Most probably because of the fuel that I returned, because before

 9     I went on the trip, nobody knew whether I would return any or not.

10        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Do you remember when you were signing the

11     document, if the document had these words in brackets, saying, "For

12     Lieutenant Colonel Popovic"?  Do you remember that being there at the

13     time?

14        A.   I don't remember.  I didn't pay attention to that.  I only paid

15     attention to the amounts of fuel cited.

16        Q.   Did you get in touch with Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic at

17     all?

18        A.   No, never.

19        Q.   Tell me, do you know him at all?

20        A.   I don't.  I don't know him today even.

21        Q.   Except for me and members of my team, did you ever speak about

22     these issues to anyone officially, i.e. investigators, lawyers

23     representing others?  Did you ever speak to anyone about the events 13

24     years ago?

25        A.   No, never.

Page 22373

 1        Q.   Approximately a month ago, you were informed of the fact that the

 2     Prosecution wanted to speak to you.  Do you recall that?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.  I received a phone call.

 4        Q.   Can you explain to us the following?  Did you respond to that

 5     invitation?  And if you did not, why not?

 6        A.   I did not, because you read to me certain documents which said

 7     that the fuel that I had transported was used for killings.  Nobody asked

 8     me anything further.

 9        Q.   Was this already at the time when you decided to appear as a

10     witness here?  What I mean is did you receive this call from the

11     Prosecution at the time when you had already made up your mind to appear

12     here as a witness?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let me ask you this:  How did it come about that you remembered

15     this event?  And I mean the event that you've just testified about

16     concerning the 16th of July.

17        A.   Since this was such a long time ago, I was able to remember on

18     the basis of the two documents that you showed to me.  I remembered the

19     fact that I brought back a certain amount of fuel.  I remembered having

20     an altercation with the soldiers, who didn't want me to take the fuel

21     that they weren't able to decant back.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogicevic.  I have no further questions.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zivanovic, there is one point which is not clear

24     to me.  To my question how the witness was able to remember the thing

25     that -- the fact that he didn't take the document with him at the time,

Page 22374

 1     he answered that -- it's line 15 on page 14.  "I never saw it before it

 2     was shown to me by Mr. Zivanovic."  But the witness had said that the

 3     signature down at the bottom is his.  So if he could clarify that?

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, yes, Your Honour, thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bogicevic, you told us here that you had

 6     signed the document that you can see on the screen right now.  You also

 7     said that you knew that you had done so on the following day.  In answer

 8     to my question, you said that you saw this document only once I showed it

 9     to you.  Can you explain this, the fact that you saw the document at the

10     time when you signed it, that it was there?  Or did you mean to say that

11     you saw it really for the first time but for the first time after these

12     events transpired?

13        A.   When I was signing the document, I only paid attention to the

14     amounts of fuel cited because I wanted to do what I was responsible for.

15     I didn't look at what was written down below.

16        Q.   In other words, when you were signing it, you had the document in

17     front of you, you wouldn't have been able to sign it otherwise?

18        A.   I merely signed it.  I in this way did what I was supposed to do,

19     and I went away.

20        Q.   Tell me, this sort of document, is it something that you normally

21     take with you when you have to, for instance, take fuel to Pilica, or is

22     this document something that is drafted subsequently?

23        A.   This document was made after the fuel was delivered.  I didn't

24     take it along with me.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 22375

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  And thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             Let's now see regarding the other cross-examinations.

 3             Mr. Nikolic?  Or Mr. Ostojic?  Mr. Nikolic?

 4             MR. NIKOLIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We have

 5     no questions of this witness.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam Nikolic?

 7             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

 8     questions for this witness.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam.  Mr. Lazarevic?

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  As we already indicated, we have no questions for

11     the witness.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Madam Fauveau?

13             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Krgovic?

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Nothing.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa, I am informed initially you did not

17     have intention to cross-examine this witness but that now you have

18     changed your mind and you would like about ten minutes.  Do you still

19     require the ten minutes?

20             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Correct.  We sought that time

21     yesterday.  However, in view of what the witness stated during the

22     examination-in-chief, we have no questions.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

24             Mr. Nicholls?

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  If it's possible, I would prefer to take the break

Page 22376

 1     a little bit early and discuss my cross with Mr. McCloskey.  I don't

 2     think it's going to be too long.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  In anticipation of even better news, is the

 4     next witness available?  He is?

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, he is, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 7             We'll have a 25-minutes break starting from now.  Thank you.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

11             Mr. Bogicevic, Mr. Nicholls, who is appearing for the

12     Prosecution, will be now examining you.

13             And for the record, we have the pleasure of Mr. Bourgon's

14     presence in the courtroom now.  Thank you.

15             Mr. Nicholls.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

17        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Now, let me just clear up a couple things

18     first.  You go by the names Branko and Brano; is that right?  Because we

19     saw on the materials list for the fuel, P291, that that is filled out as

20     Branko Bogicevic and you signed under that, but on your vehicle log,

21     P295, which you said contained your handwriting, it's the name of the

22     driver is Brano.  So you can sometimes be found under both those names;

23     is that right?

24        A.   My real name is Branko, but everybody calls me Brano.

25        Q.   Okay.  And is your father's name Milivoje?

Page 22377

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Where were you living, say, from 1992 to 1995?

 3        A.   In Zvornik.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, before the war, let's go back a bit, you said you

 5     were a driver.  You were a driver for Drinatrans; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And during the war did you ever drive buses for

 8     Drinatrans, 1992 to 1995?  You did, didn't you?

 9        A.   I worked for Drinatrans until the month of July 1992.  I was

10     mobilised in July.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now, as a bus driver for Drinatrans could you just tell us

12     what routes you drove or where you normally drove, what areas you

13     covered?

14        A.   You mean while I worked for Drinatrans?

15        Q.   Yes, before July 1992, where did you drive mostly?

16        A.   I covered the regular routes.

17        Q.   All right.  What regular routes?  I'm just asking where you drove

18     mostly.  Through Zvornik, through Bratunac, your home municipalities?

19        A.   Those were the local lines, Zvornik, Kiseljak, Loznica and back.

20        Q.   So you're very familiar with that area and the roads?

21        A.   Of course.  That's where I grew up.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, just to make something clear, you talked about how

23     these vehicle logs were filled out on a regular basis and you had to

24     write down where you went and when you came back and that they were

25     accurate, correct?  And then I'll ask you some questions about that.

Page 22378

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And it's true that when you, as a driver, as a foot soldier, you

 3     didn't decide where to transport anything, did you?  That was up to the

 4     command?

 5        A.   Well, of course.

 6        Q.   They told you where to go, when to go, what to bring?

 7        A.   Of course.  I couldn't do it of my own will.

 8        Q.   All right.  And you've testified that you didn't know anything

 9     about Vujadin Popovic back in that time period and you don't even know

10     him now, correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   All right.  But let me talk about some of the people you did know

13     at the Zvornik Brigade logistics unit.  You knew Captain Sreten

14     Milosevic, correct?  Assistant commander for logistics?

15        A.   I know him by sight.

16        Q.   And you also know him because you worked in logistics and he was

17     assistant commander for logistics, right?

18        A.   I don't know about his function.  I know him as a person by

19     sight.

20        Q.   So you know him now as a person?

21        A.   I don't remember when it was that I saw him.

22        Q.   And do you remember who the head of technical services was in

23     July 1995 in the Zvornik Brigade?

24        A.   I only know Radisav Pantic, since he was our immediate superior.

25        Q.   Okay.  What about Milenko Krstic?

Page 22379

 1        A.   I don't know him personally.

 2        Q.   Okay.  But you know he was part of logistics of the Zvornik

 3     Brigade?

 4        A.   Probably, but I don't know him.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Here is somebody you know, I think, Stevo Gajic.

 6        A.   I know him.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And what was his job in the Zvornik Brigade in July 1995?

 8        A.   He was a rather oldish man, and he was the one who decanted fuel.

 9        Q.   He ran the gas station at Karakaj, correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Even slept there?

12        A.   I don't know about that.

13        Q.   And do you know a man named Milenko Tomic, another driver?  Think

14     carefully.

15        A.   His family name is familiar.  What's his father's name?

16        Q.   I couldn't tell you off-hand but he's another driver, drove --

17     worked for Metalno but he drove for the Zvornik Brigade?

18        A.   Since I know two colleagues of mine and they have the same first

19     and last names, I don't want to make mistakes.

20        Q.   But you know a Milenko Tomic who is a colleague of yours?

21        A.   There is another individual with the same first and last name but

22     I do know this Tomic, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  And how were you -- so these are the people that you would

24     have had daily contact with in logistics.  What about -- do you know who

25     the commander of the 2nd Battalion was in July 1995?

Page 22380

 1        A.   I don't.

 2        Q.   Do you know where their headquarters was at that time?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   What about the 4th Battalion?  Who was commander in July 1995?

 5     If you don't know, it's okay.

 6        A.   Several individuals changed on that position and I don't know who

 7     ultimately was commander.

 8        Q.   Okay.  What about the 1st Battalion?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Do you know where the 1st Battalion headquarters was in July

11     1995?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you know anybody in the 1st Battalion in July 1995 by sight

14     or as a friend?

15        A.   I don't remember.

16        Q.   Okay.  Do you know who Slavko Peric is, what his job was in July

17     1995?

18        A.   As a driver?

19        Q.   No, I'm just asking if you know what that person's job was in

20     July 1995.  If you don't know or don't remember, it's okay.  It's not

21     meant to be like a quiz.

22        A.   Slavko Peric was there, a colleague of mine from the company.  He

23     drove a bus from the barracks.  Unfortunately he passed away last year.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you very quickly now about -- let's move back a

25     bit.

Page 22381

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  And could we have P295 up?  And we'll need to put

 2     the English back on the ELMO.  This is pages 11 and 12 in e-court.

 3        Q.   While that's coming up, let me just confirm that you said you

 4     didn't really remember anything about this trip to Pilica or any

 5     information about this until your memory was refreshed by the documents

 6     that Mr. Zivanovic showed you last year, correct?  That was your

 7     testimony.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I want to see if I can maybe help you remember something

10     else.  Can you see your vehicle log there in front of you?

11        A.   This isn't my work log.

12        Q.   No, it's not.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  It should be page 11.  Actually, if I could give

14     the witness the original so he can see it.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't know if my colleague wants to see it

17     first.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you want to see it, Mr. Zivanovic?

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honours.  I believe the Prosecution.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:

21        Q.   Okay.  So if you want to, you can look at that original there,

22     sir, and if we could go to page 12 now in the B/C/S, that's the next page

23     for you, and it would also be the next page on the ELMO, excuse me.

24             Now, looking down column 4, which is filled out in your

25     handwriting, we come to the 15th of July 1995, which has Standard, then

Page 22382

 1     another word, and then Orahova or Orahovo.  Now, look at that, see if

 2     that helps you remember.  I'd like you to tell us about your trip to

 3     Orahovac on the 15th of July which apparently took place pretty much the

 4     whole day.  Where did you go in Orahovac and why did you go there?

 5        A.   I don't remember.  I probably transported food and troops.

 6        Q.   And looking at this, it's 9.00 a.m., it looks like, 2130.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, Mr. Nicholls, why don't you ask him to

 8     read that column, route.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Could you read the whole route you took on the 15th of July,

11     please?  That's the fifth entry from the bottom, about.  Could you read

12     out for Their Honours where you went that day?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  "Standard, Kitovnice, Orahovac."

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, and Kitovnice is the IKM, right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And so you get there by driving through Orahovac and then - I've

17     been there - you drive up these kind of dirt, gravel roads into the

18     hills, right?

19        A.   There are asphalt -- there is an asphalted road to Orahovac and a

20     dirt road to Kitovnice.

21        Q.   That's -- thank you.

22             Now, what did you see in the area of the school and just past the

23     school in that big field on the left by the water point that day when you

24     were going to Kitovnice?  Try to remember.

25        A.   I can't remember a single thing.  I drove without paying

Page 22383

 1     attention to anything.

 2        Q.   Hmm.  Do you know what happened in Orahovac on the 14th of July?

 3     Well, really late at night on the 13th but all day on the 14th and into

 4     the night on the 14th?

 5        A.   I don't know anything.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember what happened at the Orahovac school?  Did

 7     you ever hear what happened at the Orahovac school and that field nearby

 8     during July 1995?

 9        A.   I don't remember any longer.

10        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember that all around Zvornik in July 1995,

11     Muslim men were held in schools and then taken out and executed?  Do you

12     remember that?

13        A.   Several days later, when the radio and TV stations started

14     broadcasting news about it, that was when I learned about it.

15        Q.   The reason I ask is that you drove right past the scene of the

16     mass killings at the Orahovac school and the field nearby the day after

17     it happened, while the burials were still going on, so I was wondering if

18     you don't remember that, digging equipment, bodies lying all over the

19     field?

20        A.   I most definitely did not.

21        Q.   Okay.  I want to move now and ask you -- keep looking at that

22     document; you can look at the one in front of you or the other one -- at

23     the 17th of July, the next day, not the next day from Orahovac but the

24     next day from the trip to Pilica that you discussed.  You were on the

25     road from that day from noon to 7.00 p.m., we can see from column 2 and

Page 22384

 1     you went back to Pilica.  Where did you go that day, first of all, it's a

 2     compound question, but then, what were you doing in Pilica?  Maybe this

 3     will help you remember, looking at that document again.

 4        A.   I don't remember what was that I was transporting.  I remember

 5     going there but not what I was transporting.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Where exactly did you go?

 7        A.   As it says here, "Standard, Kruske, Pilica, Zvornik."

 8        Q.   Where did you go exactly in Pilica?

 9        A.   I don't remember.

10        Q.   And where exactly is Kruske, if you can tell us?

11        A.   This is a place on the way to Kamenica.

12        Q.   Okay.  So the 15th is basically a blank, the 17th is a blank,

13     you've got some recollection about the 16th and we will talk about that

14     in a minute.

15             I'd like to bring 377 up, please.  And I -- first of all, I'd

16     like to go to English page 29, B/C/S page 148.  I hope that's right.  And

17     this should be the version which is 02935619, the complete version, I'm

18     told, of the English.

19             Now, what you're going to see, sir, is the duty officer notebook

20     from the Zvornik Brigade, and since you didn't have any recollection

21     about this trip at all or the times or what happened until you looked at

22     those documents from Mr. Zivanovic, I want to show you this one.  Now,

23     first of all, did Mr. Zivanovic show you this document when he met you or

24     when he proofed you?  Do you understand the question?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22385

 1        Q.   Okay.  Did Mr. Zivanovic show you this document?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   If you look -- this is page 148 in the English, Your Honours.

 4             The ERN is 02935766.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm not sure that we have the right document.  The

 6     one we have in English is 5648.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, page 29 of the English.  No.  Okay.  All

 8     right.  148 of the English, I'm sorry.  There are different versions.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  But what's the ERN number?

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's the correct ERN number ending in 02935766,

11     16th of July.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We have it now.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Now, Witness, I'm going to read out this entry to you.  "At 1400

15     hours Popovic requested a bus with a full tank and 500 litres of D 2.

16     Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed."

17             Do you know what Zlatar stood for in July 1995, what that was

18     code for?

19        A.   I was not familiar with all that.  I was just a foot soldier,

20     nothing more.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, that's Drina Corps command, and I won't go

22     through them with you but I'll just tell you that we have in evidence in

23     this case P1189, an intercept which links to this entry in the duty

24     officer notebook.  That intercept is from 16 July at the same time, 1358,

25     and in that intercept, the Zvornik Brigade duty officer calls the Drina

Page 22386

 1     Corps command, speaks to Pavo Golic, who is an intelligence deputy, and

 2     says that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs 500 litres of D 2 fuel

 3     immediately and he needs it at Pilica village.

 4             And then we have another intercept, 1199, at 1912, that same day,

 5     saying that the fuel problem for Zvornik is solved.

 6             So now, that's the window from the duty officer notebook, the

 7     intercepts talking about the fuel delivery, 2.00 p.m. to 7.00 p.m.  Now,

 8     that help you remember that it was within that time that you made your

 9     trip to Pilica village on 16th of July to deliver that fuel?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would just ask my friend to be careful.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I just like to tell that it is problem for

13     Zvornik is solved.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, he is trying to correct the transcript.  Line

15     20 on page 28 says that same day saying that the fuel problem for Zvornik

16     is solved.  That needs to be corrected.  Your microphone.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I do not see a point in this question.  It is not

18     the same place as --

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Exactly my point, Your Honour.  That's a

20     submission and it's argument and it's not a proper objection.  If he

21     doesn't see the point of my question he can simply correct it on redirect

22     and if he's --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.  Please proceed with your question.  Yes,

24     Mr. Zivanovic?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'd like if the witness could remove his

Page 22387

 1     headphones and I'll --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's see if he understands English first.

 3             Do you understand English?  Mr. Bogicevic, do you understand

 4     English?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Could I ask you to remove your headphones for a

 7     while, please?

 8             Now, will you be addressing the Chamber in English or in --

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  In English, in English.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Yes, go ahead.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  This conversation was related to the two tonnes,

12     2.000 litres of fuel for Zvornik, as far as I know, that's it, not for

13     specifically 500 litres for --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls?

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I don't think I even need to respond

16     to that.  There is a duty officer notebook saying there is a problem

17     with -- that Popovic needs fuel immediately, there is an intercept

18     earlier saying that fuel needs to be delivered immediately, at 2.00 p.m.,

19     and that there needs to be 500 litres of D 2 going to Pilica village.

20     There is an intercept at 1712 with Basovic, who is one of the people on

21     the earlier intercept, and he says that Zvornik is solved.  I think it's

22     a fair inference that it's the Zvornik Brigade problem of the 500 litres.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Right.  This is basically a submission.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Exactly.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  You can address if on redirect if you wish to do

Page 22388

 1     so, Mr. Zivanovic.  In the meantime let's proceed with the question.  And

 2     it remains a submission at the end of the day because if there is a

 3     disagreement amongst you or between you as to which consignment of fuel

 4     it refers to, I think we will be in a position to handle it and you will

 5     have all the opportunity to make submissions.

 6             Mr. Nicholls, if you wish to repeat the question to the witness,

 7     please?

 8             You need -- Mr. Bogicevic, can you follow now?  Can you hear me?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Would you like to repeat your question?

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

12        Q.   Sir, what I was asking you about, because you'd stated on your

13     direct examination that all of your recollection of the 16th July trip to

14     Pilica when you delivered this fuel was based on documents and your

15     meeting with Mr. Zivanovic and the proofing session and what he showed

16     you.  I'm showing you some more things to try to help you remember the

17     time.  We see that you were on the road all day basically on the 16th of

18     July, from your log.  What I've shown you now is an entry from 1400 in

19     the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook saying that Vujadin Popovic

20     needs fuel immediately and -- or his work will stop and that he needs 500

21     litres.  I've shown -- told you about the intercept --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please, Mr. Zivanovic, let him finish the question

23     first.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:

25        Q.   I've told you about the intercept at the same time saying that

Page 22389

 1     500 litres of D 2 needs to go to Popovic at Pilica village and I've shown

 2     you and told you about the intercept at 17 -- at 1912 that same day

 3     saying that the fuel problem for Zvornik is solved.  Now, that's the

 4     window.  The notebook, the intercepts, everything shows that this took

 5     place between 2.00 p.m. and 7.00 p.m.  Now, does that help you remember

 6     the time of your trip to Pilica village on the 16th?

 7        A.   I haven't a clue about these conversations.  I don't know

 8     anything about them.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  But that's not answering the question.  The

10     question is the following:  Mr. Nicholls has given you this information,

11     which for the time being you need to take exists in the records of this

12     case, and he is asking you whether this helps to jog your memory as to

13     what happened on that particular day, on the 16th.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:

16        Q.   So when did you leave for Pilica and when did you arrive there?

17        A.   You can see in the vehicle work log, and I've explained just

18     recently.

19        Q.   The vehicle work log shows that you were on the road on the 16th

20     of July from 7.00 to 9.30 p.m., 7.00 a.m. to 9.30 p.m.  It doesn't say

21     when you arrived at Pilica.  I've shown you now that the request for fuel

22     to Pilica came at 2.00 p.m. and that the fuel problem was solved some

23     hours later.  When did you bring the fuel to Pilica?  If you don't

24     remember, you don't remember.  I'm asking if that helps you remember.

25        A.   Well, you can see it in the vehicle work log when I returned from

Page 22390

 1     Pilica and you can also see -- or so it turns outs that I departed for

 2     Pilica at 7.00 in the evening.

 3        Q.   Okay, let's bring up the vehicle work log, please.  And it's

 4     P295, page 12 in the B/C/S, page 2 of the English.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  We need a clarification here because

 6     in your question, if you look at line 8 on page 32, you put to the

 7     witness as a time frame 7.00 in the morning to 9.30 in the evening, and

 8     he seems to be indicating that from this document, you should or he

 9     should or we should be talking of 7.30 in the evening to 9.30 in the

10     evening.  There is a great difference between one and the other.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, and that's why I want to show him the log,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Then go ahead.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  And the English needs to go on the ELMO, please,

15     page 2 of the English hard copy.

16        Q.   Now, you can see, sir, in your vehicle log, just like virtually

17     every vehicle log, the numbering for times is 24 hours.  You don't write

18     5.00 p.m. in the first line for 2nd July, you write 1700.  You don't

19     write 4.00 p.m. for the 3rd of July, you write 1600.  And for the

20     morning, for the 3rd of July, you write 800, 8.00 a.m.  For the 16th of

21     July we've got 700, which is 7.00 a.m., and 2130 which is 9.30 p.m.

22     There is nothing in here that says you left at 7.00 p.m. Are you --

23     correct?  You were all the road all day that day.  You went to Klisa,

24     Pilica, Zvornik, and then Standard.

25        A.   As far as my memory serves me, there was just this trip to

Page 22391

 1     Pilica, with the fuel, in the afternoon.

 2        Q.   Well, Klisa is out to the west of Kozluk, correct?

 3        A.   Klisa is on the road to Sapna.

 4        Q.   And you've told us that these were filled out carefully and that

 5     they had to be filled out and it's correct that it goes to Pilica, and

 6     you haven't answered my question, which is that this indicates that you

 7     were on the road from 7.00 a.m. to 2130 and that you did 112 kilometres.

 8     Right?

 9        A.   But that's correct but not only on the road from Zvornik to

10     Pilica.

11        Q.   And you did not remember anything about this trip, you said,

12     before meeting with Defence counsel and going over the documents they

13     showed you.  I'm putting it to you, based on all the other documents that

14     I've told you about, the duty officer notebook I've shown you, you went

15     to Pilica in the afternoon.  It was a long time ago, right?

16        A.   Yes, of course it was a long time ago.

17        Q.   It's possible you were there in the afternoon, isn't it?

18        A.   I was only there during the delivery of the fuel.  And that could

19     have been after 7.00 in the evening.

20        Q.   And what is it hat on this fuel log that tells you it was after

21     7.00 in the evening?

22        A.   Well, the -- the vehicle work log, it says I was at the barracks

23     at 2130 so that means that I was in Pilica at the time when it says I

24     was.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's go now -- we'll come back to that -- to P291.  Could

Page 22392

 1     we get the original?  If I could give the witness the original?  Now,

 2     that's the materials list for the fuel that you brought to Pilica, you

 3     testified about that, correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Answer so the microphone could hear you.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   I want to see if you know some of the other signatures on this

 8     document.  Right below where it says 500 and also at the bottom under the

 9     box just to the right of the stamp, there is a signature.  Do you

10     recognise that signature to be Stevo Gajic's?

11        A.   I do not recognise any of the two signatures.

12        Q.   He told us that was his signature.  Look at it again.  I don't

13     know how many times you've seen his signature.  Does it help you at all?

14        A.   I'm not familiar with his signature at all.

15        Q.   And you can see the bottom left under the stamp, it's hard to

16     see, do you see there the signature of Sreten Milosevic?  He's also

17     confirmed to us that that's his signature.

18        A.   Again, not familiar with the signature.

19        Q.   And if we go up to the top, we see the order date of 16 July

20     1995, correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And then we can see in the middle the writing that 140 litres was

23     returned, correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   It's signed there.  And then at the bottom again, in box 38 for

Page 22393

 1     operator, we see the same signature, Stevo Gajic.  So he has signed this

 2     document twice, right?

 3        A.   I know nothing of that.

 4        Q.   You know nothing about it.  Well, look at the document.

 5        A.   The signature is similar but I don't know whose signature it is.

 6        Q.   Okay.  When we interviewed Mr. Gajic, he told us it's his

 7     signature.  If you take that from me, he has signed the document twice,

 8     hasn't he?  He signed it when it was issued and he signed for the fuel

 9     return because he would normally sign when the fuel was returned,

10     correct?

11        A.   It is possible, but I'm not familiar with the guy's signature.

12        Q.   Okay.  If you went out -- forget about this trip to Pilica.  If

13     you went out on a trip to deliver fuel and you came back and you returned

14     fuel, the amount of fuel you returned would be signed for, wouldn't it?

15     There would be a receipt, some paper work, to show that some of the fuel

16     had been returned, correct?

17        A.   But there is a paper, here you have it.  It says that the fuel

18     was indeed returned.

19        Q.   And what I'm asking you, you might not have understood me, is

20     that was the normal practice.  Forget about the trip to Pilica.  When you

21     went and brought fuel back, it would be signed for because fuel was very,

22     very precious at this time, wasn't it?

23        A.   It was precious, indeed, and it is also true that I returned

24     every last litre of it, and I signed this receipt note.

25        Q.   All right.  And the fuel was precious because it was needed for

Page 22394

 1     the war and there wasn't enough to go around and we've seen in other

 2     documents problems about running out of fuel, correct?

 3        A.   Most probably, yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, I want to talk to you again about your trip to Pilica

 5     on the 16th.  Who sent you on that trip?  Who told you you're going to

 6     Pilica now?  Pantic?

 7        A.   Can't remember.  Could have been him or his second in command or

 8     even the third in command.  I can't remember.

 9        Q.   Who was the second and third in command?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It was a wrong translation.  He didn't say in

12     command, second in command or third in command.  He just said a second or

13     third.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's clarify this, not that it makes much

15     difference.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Actually I'll just withdraw the question.

17        Q.   You don't remember who sent you to deliver this 500 litres of

18     D 2?

19        A.   I don't remember.

20        Q.   Just let me do it this way.  If it wasn't Pantic, who else would

21     it have been during that time period of July?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Without speculating, without speculating.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   By that what I mean is who else had the authority in your unit to

25     send you out there?

Page 22395

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  So that's a better question.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:

 3        Q.   Sreten Milosevic could have sent you there.

 4        A.   I don't remember any names.  I don't know the people.

 5        Q.   Look at that receipt in front of you, the materials list, P291,

 6     where it's handwritten 1, diesel fuel, fuel issued according to the order

 7     of Captain Sreten Milosevic.  The assistant commander for logistics could

 8     have sent you to deliver fuel to Pilica, couldn't he?  Which is exactly

 9     what it says on the materials list.

10        A.   Believe me, I can't remember.

11        Q.   You can't remember who sent you, fine, but Sreten Milosevic, the

12     assistant commander for logistics, could have, he had the authority, he

13     could have sent you on this trip, which according to the document is upon

14     his order?

15        A.   He probably could have, but I don't remember.

16        Q.   What were your exact instructions of where to go with this 500

17     litres of precious fuel in Pilica?  I mean they didn't tell you to go

18     drive around Pilica with it until you found somebody, right?  Where did

19     they tell you to go?

20        A.   I was told to Pilica.

21        Q.   And what were you told would happen when you got to Pilica?

22        A.   I don't remember.

23        Q.   Well, okay.  Don't speculate, but if you were ordered to deliver

24     500 litres of fuel, forget about this trip, aren't you told who to bring

25     it to?  Normally?

Page 22396

 1        A.   I was told to Pilica and that's where I was waited by soldiers.

 2        Q.   I understand you testified that you met soldiers there who you

 3     didn't know.  My question is normally, if you're doing a delivery of

 4     something, especially something very, very expensive and important where

 5     you had to account, as you said, for every last litre, aren't you told

 6     where to bring it to, like any normal delivery man in any system, bring

 7     this to this person, to that person, to this unit?

 8        A.   I wasn't told.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So your testimony is that nobody told you who to give this

10     fuel to when you set out?  Just kind of go to Pilica with this fuel?

11     That's your testimony?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I want you to describe the trip when you drove out there for me.

14     Did you see anything unusual on the way, any -- any -- anything stands

15     out in your mind?

16        A.   Nothing.

17        Q.   Didn't see any combat?

18        A.   I didn't.

19        Q.   You didn't have an escort to protect you or the fuel?

20        A.   I didn't.

21        Q.   Okay.  And so you drive into Pilica, you come in at the south end

22     of the town and head through there, past the dom, to the bridge, right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And along the way, what are you doing while you're in the town?

25     Are you just kind of -- I mean, how do you know where to go with the

Page 22397

 1     fuel, what to do with the fuel?  You're just looking around seeing if

 2     anybody is waving their hands saying, "I need fuel"?  Describe it to me.

 3        A.   I went past Pilica and at the other end, close to a bridge, there

 4     was a group of soldiers.  That's where the fuel was decanted.

 5        Q.   My point is, before you got to that bridge, you didn't know where

 6     you were going to transfer the fuel or to whom, who you were going to

 7     transfer it to?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And you didn't know any of these soldiers at all, correct, who

10     you transferred the fuel to?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   And you didn't know anybody in the 1st Battalion at that time.

13     You testified to that, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   How much -- how big are these drums of fuel?  How much D2 is in

16     each drum?

17        A.   There were three barrels or drums, I believe, 200 litres each.

18     And probably 500 litres were decanted into these three drums.

19        Q.   Okay.  And tell me exactly, you spoke about it a little bit on

20     direct, but exactly how this fuel was transferred to the unknown

21     soldiers, if you can.

22        A.   They had jerrycans on them, some were plastic, others metal.

23        Q.   Yeah.  And how did you get it out of these barrels?  You said

24     with a tube.  Did you have a pump or a -- just explain to me.

25        A.   They just had a plain hose, rubber hose, which was used to decant

Page 22398

 1     the fuel from the drum into the jerrycans.

 2        Q.   And how many soldiers were there doing this?

 3        A.   Four or five, I believe.

 4        Q.   And what conversation did you have with them?

 5        A.   None.

 6        Q.   None.

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do we have an indication of how big or small these

10     jerrycans were?  Because there are various sizes to my knowledge.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:

12        Q.   Yes, could you please answer His Honour's question?  How big were

13     the jerrycans you're putting these in?

14        A.   I don't know exactly.  There were various sizes.

15        Q.   M'hm.  So it wasn't uniform, just all different kinds of

16     containers that you're transferring this 360 litres of D fuel to at the

17     side of the road with a piece of hose or something?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, what are they doing with these jerrycans?  Just -- you

20     haven't described that at all.  Stacking them by the road or carrying

21     them into a house, putting them on another vehicle?  You didn't talk

22     about seeing any other vehicles.  Where is this fuel going?

23        A.   It was left there.  After we had that altercation about the

24     remaining fuel that they didn't have any containers for, I set off on my

25     trip with the intention of returning the fuel, and they stayed behind.

Page 22399

 1        Q.   All right.  So let me just summarise this a minute and see if you

 2     agree with me.  We've got the order, the material list dated 16 July,

 3     1995, according to the order of Captain Sreten Milosevic, 500 litres of

 4     D2 is supposed to go to Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, Drina Corps assistant

 5     commander for security.  In the duty officer logbook it says that

 6     Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs 500 litres of D2.  In the intercept, it

 7     says that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs 500 litres of D2 right away in

 8     Pilica village.  You go to Pilica village, you bring 500 litres of D2.

 9     And you have no idea, nobody has told you, that it's for a Drina Corps

10     assistant commander; is that right?

11        A.   I don't know about any conversations.  I only know that I made

12     the trip and returned the fuel.

13        Q.   All right.  And you returned the fuel the next day, 17th?  That

14     was your testimony.

15        A.   No.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's not his testimony.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think his answer will clarify that.  Let him

19     answer the question.

20             Mr. Bogicevic, if could you answer that question, please?  When

21     did you return the fuel, on the 16th or on the 17th?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 16th at 2130 hours.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   Okay.  And then on -- on the next day you're saying the receipt

25     is signed for the return of the fuel?  Is that what happened the next

Page 22400

 1     day, you said, because it was late?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And that's why Stevo Gajic has signed it twice, right, once on

 4     the 16th when the fuel goes out and he signed it again right under where

 5     it says for the return, correct?

 6        A.   It was probably done in the course of the day, but I signed it on

 7     the following day, that I had duly returned the fuel.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, there has been evidence in this case that in the

 9     middle of the day on the 16th of July, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was at

10     the Kula school.  Did you go to the Kula school on the 16th of July?

11        A.   I don't remember.

12        Q.   So you're not sure?  Did you go to Branjevo Farm on the 16th of

13     July?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   On the 16th of July, around 500 men were murdered in the Pilica

16     dom when you went by.  That was in the afternoon, after 4.00 p.m., a few

17     hours after you -- the call came in from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic to

18     have fuel delivered to him there.  Do you not --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon?

20             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would just like to

21     note for the record, because my friend is asking a question concerning a

22     phone call that came in from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.  Now, if we look

23     in the duty officer's logbook, that's P377 on page 29, nowhere does it

24     say that the call came from a Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.  It says

25     Popovic, not Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.  That's on page 29, P377.

Page 22401

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  What's your comment on

 2     that?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   The phone call comes in at 1400 that Popovic needs 500 litres of

 5     D2.  The intercept says Lieutenant Colonel Popovic needs D2.  You're

 6     telling us you're completely unaware about all these killings in Pilica,

 7     you were right there?

 8        A.   I wasn't there at that time.  And I don't know about that.

 9        Q.   On the 17th of July, you went back to Pilica again, right?

10     That's in your log.

11        A.   I don't see that.

12        Q.   Well, I could show it to you if you want but don't you remember

13     we just looked at it a minute ago?  It's page 12 in the B/C/S.  This is

14     again P295.  We had already talked about this.  You went to Pilica again

15     on the 17th of July.

16             Tell me again, what were you doing at Pilica on the 17th of July?

17     Where did you go?

18        A.   This probably stands for the transportation of troops, Standard,

19     Kruske, Pilica Zvornik.

20        Q.   Right, but you have -- you've already said you don't remember

21     anything about these days.  Why do you think that's transport of troops?

22        A.   I was reminded of it through the fact that it was entered into

23     the work log.  Other than that, I don't remember anything.

24        Q.   Although if you'll notice for the --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

Page 22402

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The witness clearly said probably.  It is page

 2     44, line 6.  This probably stands for the transportation of troops.

 3     Probably.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  What's the difference between the use of probably

 5     and the phrase, the way Mr. Nicholls phrased it?  To me it's the same.

 6     It is the same, when he says why do you think the transport of troops?

 7     That's because he said probably it was the transport of troops.

 8             So please proceed with your question.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:

10        Q.   If you look at your log on that day, the 17th of July when you

11     think you might have been transporting troops, you'll notice that the

12     amount of people carried is 0.

13        A.   This was my error in filling this out.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Because the speculation of the witness.  He

15     already told us that it is probably.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, this is cross-examination.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  And unless you have a serious objection,

20     Mr. Zivanovic, please don't interrupt.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.

22        Q.   Again, when we started off, you didn't remember anything about

23     16th of July until you were reminded, you don't remember anything about

24     the 15th of July.  On the 7 -- other than my refreshing you where you

25     went.  On the 17th of July, even though your log indicates that you

Page 22403

 1     didn't transport any people, you now recall that you made an error and it

 2     should show that you were transporting people that day?

 3        A.   This was an error on my part because 25 was entered into the

 4     column of tonnes, whereas the truck itself had the carrying capacity of

 5     2.5 tonnes.  This was an error on my part.  This number should have been

 6     entered into the column for individuals, people.

 7        Q.   Maybe the error was that it was 2.5.  In any event, let me tell

 8     you what was going on at Pilica that day, see if this helps you remember.

 9     First of all, when were you at Pilica on the 17th?

10        A.   It doesn't say that I went directly to Pilica.  I went from

11     Standard to Kruske, Pilica, Zvornik.  That's what it says.

12        Q.   Try to focus on my question.  The question was when were you at

13     Pilica, as in what time?

14        A.   I don't remember.

15        Q.   Don't remember.  Well, do you remember that during that day, the

16     bodies which had been murdered, the bodies of the 500, 550 people

17     murdered in the dom the day before, you don't remember seeing anything

18     about; the next day you were there on the 17th, those bodies were taken

19     out of the dom, put on trucks, two trucks, and driven to Branjevo for

20     burial?  While you were in Pilica, did you see at the dom, right there in

21     the centre of town, those bodies being loaded on the truck?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   We've got evidence in this case, this is at transcript 11326 to

24     11333, that that took some time, it went on until 1500 hours.  The

25     witness who was loading bodies on to trucks thought there was about 550

Page 22404

 1     and he saw two women among the corpses.  Now, Milenko Tomic drove one of

 2     those trucks with bodies to Branjevo Farm.  Are you sure you don't

 3     remember what was going on there that day that you were there with your

 4     truck?

 5        A.   I definitely don't remember, because I stopped in Pilica only

 6     briefly.

 7        Q.   Did you have a drink or a cup of coffee there?

 8        A.   There was none to be had there.  Nothing was opened.  And I

 9     didn't linger there.  I only stopped there on the 16th to have the fuel

10     decanted, and then on the 17th, I transported people, and I don't recall

11     at all stopping in Pilica.

12        Q.   Well, you just -- I thought you said you did stop there briefly

13     now on the 17th.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we do have a confusion of -- between the

15     16th and the 17th here.  Which there shouldn't have been because your

16     question at lines 12 to 18 on page 46 was quite clear.

17             I prefer not to put the question myself.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I continue, Your Honour, and I'll try to clear

19     that up.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:

22        Q.   Okay.  On your vehicle log, you are in Pilica on the 17th.  We

23     have established that.  You now remember that were you bringing troops

24     there, you think.  And I've told you in my question that up until 3 p.m.,

25     1500 hours that day, they were loading the bodies or corpses from the dom

Page 22405

 1     and taking them to Branjevo to be buried, all those victims, and I asked

 2     you if you remembered any of that and what you were doing there with your

 3     truck that day and you said, answer:  I definitely don't remember because

 4     I stopped in Pilica only briefly.  And my question is:  I'll wait --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is again misquotation, in the line 12, page

 7     47, you now remember that were you bringing troops there.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  You think.  Well, then you have your --

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  You have -- sorry, sorry.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:

11        Q.   Okay.  My question is, tell me about this brief stop in Pilica on

12     the 17th.  What I was asking you is if you went to the cafe which is

13     right across from the dom on your brief stop?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   What did you do during your brief stop?

16        A.   I only stopped for the men to disembark the truck, and then I

17     went back immediately.

18        Q.   Where?  Where did they disembark?

19        A.   I don't remember the exact spot.

20        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember what time it was now, perhaps since I've

21     told you that the empty -- taking the bodies out of the dom lasted until

22     3.00 p.m.?  Do you now remember what time you got there?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   Now, in 1992, you worked for Drinatrans, correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22406

 1        Q.   As a bus driver?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And the head of Drinatrans at that time, I believe, was Bosko

 4     Milic, if I pronounce it right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You were living in Zvornik then?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you remember driving Muslim civilians away from Zvornik in

 9     1992 in your bus, for exchange, in quotes?

10        A.   I don't remember that I did.

11        Q.   Think carefully.  Do you remember taking busloads of Muslim men,

12     women and children from Kozluk?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  He answered the question.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm asking him to remember carefully.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  He is rephrasing the question, adding more

16     information now.  Please, Mr. Zivanovic, it has never been our practice

17     to disallow objections, et cetera, but there is a limit, and continuously

18     interrupting counsel during cross-examination is not exactly what we mean

19     to allow, unless it is necessary.

20             Yes, Mr. Bogicevic, if you could answer that question.  To the

21     previous question you said "I don't remember that I did."  Now

22     Mr. Nicholls is suggesting to you that you may have transported busloads

23     of Muslim men, women and children from Kozluk in 1992 and that the

24     purpose of such transportation was for exchange.  Do you remember

25     transporting Muslims?

Page 22407

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't remember.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:

 3        Q.   You had to think about that pretty carefully.  I mean, did you

 4     ever transport Muslim civilians out of the territory of the RS and you

 5     just can't remember if it was Kozluk?  We are talking about 1992.  During

 6     that period of cleansing.

 7             Here is another place.  Divic.  Do you remember taking Muslim

 8     civilians from Divic in your Drinatrans bus and then coming back and

 9     telling Bosko Milic about it?  Do you remember that?

10        A.   I remember.

11        Q.   Okay.  Tell me about that.  Tell me about taking these Muslim

12     civilians from Divic and taking them away, when you did that, who told

13     you to do that, where you took them, describe it.

14        A.   We drove them to Han Pijesak.  We returned to Mimica and they

15     went in direction of Tuzla.  That's all I remember.

16        Q.   And at this period what had happened and what was happening to

17     all the mosques in Zvornik municipality when you were taking these

18     civilians away from their homes?

19        A.   I don't remember.

20        Q.   You don't remember the mosque being destroyed and blown up?

21        A.   Later on, it was for all to see, everybody saw.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  What's the relevance of this last series of

23     questions?

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  The question is, Your Honour, to show that this

25     individual, this witness, was taking part in the removal of the

Page 22408

 1     population at that time and the mosques being blown up at that particular

 2     period is part of the permanence of that removal and I was seeing if the

 3     witness was aware that at the time he was taking these civilians away,

 4     that their places of worship were being destroyed back home.  I have no

 5     further questions at this time.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.  Mr. Zivanovic, do you have any

 7     re-examination of this witness?

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Just a few questions.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please, go ahead.  I see Mr. Sarapa wants to

10     intervene.  Mr. Sarapa?

11             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I be allowed to

12     put one question to the witness after the cross-examination by the

13     Prosecution?  I initially thought I wouldn't have any questions for him

14     but I do now, after the cross-examination.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you remove your headphones for a while, please?

16             Yes, Mr. Sarapa?  And what would your question be?  Speak in

17     English, please.

18             MR. SARAPA:  It's regarding that -- the logbook, for the 17th of

19     July.  It's a question of the separate 25 and as -- because the witness

20     said if they were soldiers reported on the 17th of July, he remembered

21     that, and --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please be asked to come

23     closer to the microphone?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa, the interpreters are having difficulty

25     hearing you and so have I, although I don't suffer from hearing loss, so

Page 22409

 1     if you could approach the microphone and be more specific about what you

 2     would like to ask the question -- the witness?

 3             MR. SARAPA:  Yes.  I want to ask him, in the duty officer

 4     notebook, for the 14th, for the 14th, this is -- it is noticed that 25

 5     soldiers from the 1st Battalion were -- had to go and be deployed in the

 6     region Djevanje Kruske.  From the 1st Battalion, this is 25 of them.  And

 7     yes, it was on the page 127.  And I want to ask him whether -- whether

 8     these 25 people were those who were transferred back on the 17th of July,

 9     and this is what he said that he brought back, 25 soldiers.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sarapa, could you give me the last four digits

11     of ERN?

12             MR. SARAPA:  This is ERN 5745.  It would have to be the page 127,

13     both in B/C/S and in English.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's the 14th of July.

15             MR. SARAPA:  Yes, yes, it is.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  I thought he said 17.

17             MR. SARAPA:  Yes.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  What he's suggesting is there is a record of a

19     request for the transportation of 25 soldiers, such request being made on

20     the 14th of July, and he wishes to know whether possibly these were the

21     25 soldiers that the witness said he may have transported on the 17th of

22     July.

23             MR. SARAPA:  Yes.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic, let's make life easier.  Are you

25     prepared, are you willing, to adopt the question that Mr. Sarapa would

Page 22410

 1     like to put to the witness?

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would leave it to Mr. Sarapa.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  You would leave it to Mr. Sarapa but that would

 4     create a problem for us because it's -- provided you don't consider it as

 5     a precedent for the future.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, sorry, I don't see --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nicholls?

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't see the obvious connection.  I think he

 9     may throw that out to the witness and be asking him to speculate.  I'd

10     object to using the notebook as leading under these circumstances, and

11     there is nothing apparent here from the testimony or the evidence to

12     connect this to his possible travel on the 17th.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  There is obviously nothing to connect it so far.

14     And this is why Mr. Sarapa, I understand, wants to put the question,

15     trying to possibly connect it.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, if I could give a proposal?

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  If we could have a break and I would consult with

20     Mr. Sarapa and eventually put his question in my re-examination.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I withdraw any objection to the

23     question.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I think we will deal with it.  The

25     understanding is, ladies and gentlemen of the Defence, that this should

Page 22411

 1     not, and is not meant by us to constitute a precedent.  We are allowing

 2     it for the time being because we think that if there is doubt, it should

 3     be cleared, but for no other reason.

 4             Mr. Sarapa, you could put the question to the witness, but first

 5     we need to tell him to put on his headphone.

 6             Mr. Bogicevic, the gentleman in the back is counsel Sarapa, and

 7     he's appearing for General Pandurevic.  He would like to put a question

 8     to you before Mr. Zivanovic finishes you off with his last barrage of

 9     questions on re-examination.  Yes, Mr. Sarapa?

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

11             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you for allowing me to put the

12     question to the witness.  Can the witness please be shown document number

13     P377, page 127?  Could we scroll down to the bottom part of the page?

14     Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Bogicevic, could you please look at the last line?  It says

16     here the 1st Infantry Battalion, 1100, 25 soldiers, sent to Kamenica,

17     Djevanje, Rijeka settlement before 1100 hours.  This is an entry --

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I finish reading it to the end, the Djevanje Rijeka

19     settlement, transfer tomorrow SDO.

20             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]SDO.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Maybe --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let him finish the question first, please.  Yes,

23     Mr. Sarapa?

24             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is an entry made on the 14th of July.  Mr. Bogicevic, do you

Page 22412

 1     know where Djevanje is or Rijeka settlement, Kruske and that region, are

 2     you familiar with the region?

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  That was not the question that you

 4     wanted to or you told us you wanted to put to the witness.  I mean, go

 5     straight to the question that you indicated to us, please, and what was

 6     your -- why were you standing, Mr. Nicholls?  Do you have an objection?

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  It was for the date, Your Honour, that he was

 8     reading to him but he --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please go direct to the question that you told us

10     you wished to put to the witness.

11             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes.

12        Q.   It says here that 25 soldiers should have been sent into the

13     region.  You said that you drove soldiers, on the 17th of July, in

14     response to a Prosecutor's question.  Would you allow for the possibility

15     that the 25 soldiers were the ones that are mentioned here, from the 1st

16     Infantry Battalion, that they were the ones that you brought back?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   I thank you.  No further questions.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.

20             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bogicevic, I have very short questions,

23     three.  Can you please tell me, the lorry that you drove, the TAM 80 that

24     you used to transport the fuel, what was its fuel tank capacity?

25        A.   40 litres.

Page 22413

 1        Q.   You mean its own fuel tank?  It could not receive 500 litres?

 2        A.   Of course not.

 3        Q.   Another thing, the Prosecutor asked you about some acquaintances

 4     of yours and he asked you about some battalions of the Zvornik Brigade.

 5     Do you know which battalions was any of your friends assigned to, the

 6     1st, the 2nd or the 3rd?

 7        A.   No, I don't.

 8        Q.   And the last thing I would like to clarify in order to avoid any

 9     misunderstandings.  On the day when you drove the fuel to Pilica on the

10     16th of July, do you still adhere to the fact that you did not go to

11     Branjevo, Kula, or to any other place on that day?

12        A.   I am 100 per cent sure of that.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have no further questions, thank you.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you.  That brings --

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We don't have any questions from the

17     Bench for you, Mr. Bogicevic, which means that your testimony comes to an

18     end here.  I wish to thank you on behalf of the Trial Chamber for having

19     come over to give evidence.  And on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe

20     journey back home.  You will now receive all the assistance you require

21     from our staff to facilitate your return.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic, any documents you wish to tender?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that both of these documents were already

Page 22414

 1     tendered but I'll double check it.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Nicholls?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour, other than the revised

 4     translation to the portion of P295.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And since that already exists

 6     unrevised, I would suggest that you liaise with our staff to make sure

 7     what the right numbering should be.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  We'll do that, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We will follow the previous practice.

10     We had this before and I can't remember exactly what practice we adopted

11     but Madam Registrar can check.  Thank you.  We'll have a 25-minute break

12     now and please have the next witness ready.  Thank you.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I just like to indicate

18     one mistake, one error in the transcript at page 55, line --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Should the witness hear this or not?

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  He can.  He could hear it.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's see what the correction is.  For the time

22     being, do you mind taking off your headphones, please?  Yes.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is page 55, line 9, after the answer of the

24     witness 40 litres, it was my question, "You mean its own fuel tank?  It

25     could not receive 500 litres."  It is my question --

Page 22415

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- and then follows the answer of the witness --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course not.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- "of course not," yeah.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, that needs to be taken care of,

 6     lines 9 and 10.

 7             Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 8             Okay.  You can -- now, Mr. Zivanovic and Mr. Sarapa, Mr. Sarapa,

 9     this is also one of your witnesses, isn't he?

10             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's our joint witness.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  And you are aware of our decision earlier on

12     and your acceptance that he will testify now and that, in other words, as

13     far as you are concerned, you are going to examine him in chief now.

14             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

16             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] To avoid him coming again.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Jovanovic, good afternoon to you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  And on behalf of the Trial Chamber I would like to

20     welcome you to this Tribunal.  You've been summoned as a witness by two

21     of the Defence teams, by Colonel Popovic and by General Pandurevic.

22     Mr. Zivanovic for Colonel Popovic will go first.  He will ask you a

23     series of questions and then we proceed from there.  But before you start

24     giving evidence, our rules require that you make a solemn declaration to

25     the effect that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the

Page 22416

 1     truth and the whole truth.  The text has just been handed to you.  Please

 2     read it out aloud and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  ZORAN JOVANOVIC

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.  Please make yourself

 8     comfortable.  You will be here for the rest of the sitting today and then

 9     you will return again tomorrow so that we continue with the various

10     examinations and cross-examinations.

11             Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovic.

15        A.   Good afternoon.

16        Q.   Could you please state your full name for the record?

17        A.   Zoran Jovanovic.

18        Q.   Can you give us the date and place of birth?

19        A.   14 October 1943, Valjevo.

20        Q.   What can you tell us about your educational background?

21        A.   I graduated from the secondary construction school.

22        Q.   Can you give us a short overview of your professional background

23     and your current profession?

24        A.   I started working at Glinica-Birac factory in 1975 and I worked

25     there until retirement.  I'm currently retired.

Page 22417

 1        Q.   Did you participate in the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   I did.

 3        Q.   What unit were you attached to?

 4        A.   From 22 March, I was in a JNA unit, and that was in 1992, and

 5     then when the JNA withdrew from Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was in the

 6     Zvornik Brigade.

 7        Q.   Did you have a rank?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What rank was that?

10        A.   Major.

11        Q.   Were you an active serviceman or a reserve major?

12        A.   I was a reserve major.

13        Q.   When were you demobilised?  Can you please tell us?

14        A.   I was demobilised on the 30th November 1996.

15        Q.   While you were a member of the Zvornik Brigade, what was your

16     establishment?

17        A.   At first I was appointed the commander of the 4th Battalion, and

18     immediately after that, when I was removed, I was appointed the deputy

19     commander of the 6th Battalion.  After that, I was the commander of the

20     so-called crew forces, and then I was the commander of the reserve

21     battalion which did not have a permanent composition.  And then I was

22     with the staff office.

23        Q.   Since we are interested in the events that took place in July

24     1995, could you please tell me, at that time what was your establishment

25     position?

Page 22418

 1        A.   I was in the staff office at the time.

 2        Q.   Who was your superior?

 3        A.   At that time, I was subordinated to the commander.

 4        Q.   And the office was part of the staff or another department?

 5        A.   It was part of the staff, as a separate unit, a separate part.

 6        Q.   Did you have any doings with the Chief of Staff at the time?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Were you subordinated to him as well?

 9        A.   To be honest with you, I received orders from the Chief of Staff

10     and from the commander, but in my own personal view, I was subordinated

11     to my commander.

12        Q.   Can you just briefly describe your duties that you performed in

13     the staff office at that time?

14        A.   In the staff office we mostly printed orders or typed orders,

15     depended on the machine.  We received mail and registered it.  That would

16     have been part of our general services, dealing with the documentation,

17     receiving and dispatching and distributing documentation that we

18     received.

19        Q.   Are we talking about administration work?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Generally speaking, while you were a member of the Zvornik

22     Brigade, did you also perform the duties of the duty officer in the

23     operation centre?

24        A.   Yes, I did perform those duties.

25        Q.   And what about the forward command post?  Did you perform duty

Page 22419

 1     office there as well?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, and if my memory serves me well, I did

 3     not.

 4        Q.   Do you remember if one part of your unit, to be more precise, the

 5     Zvornik Brigade, participated in operations around Srebrenica?

 6        A.   I know that they did.

 7        Q.   Were you assigned to be a member of the group that participated

 8     in the operation or not?

 9        A.   I was not assigned to go to Srebrenica, no.

10        Q.   When the army of Republika Srpska entered Srebrenica, do you

11     remember the situation in Zvornik?  Can you describe it for us in the

12     shortest outlines, not maybe on the same day when the army of Republika

13     Srpska entered Srebrenica but around that time, during the following next

14     days?

15        A.   As far as I know and as far as I can remember, the situation was

16     rather normal in the town of Zvornik.

17        Q.   Do you perhaps remember what was happening with the Muslim forces

18     that had been in Srebrenica once the Republika Srpska army entered

19     Srebrenica?

20        A.   The Muslim forces that had pulled out from Srebrenica were trying

21     to cross over to their own territory, i.e. the Muslim territory in the

22     direction of Tuzla.

23        Q.   Do you know if those forces ever engaged in fighting with the

24     units of the Republika Srpska army or, to be more precise, with that part

25     of the Zvornik Brigade?

Page 22420

 1        A.   They did, and it happened at Snagovo.  That's where they had

 2     their first encounter, as far as I know.

 3        Q.   And did you have a personal engagement in the units of the

 4     Zvornik Brigade that were tasked with encountering those Muslim forces

 5     that had been withdrawing from Srebrenica?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Tell me, please, do you remember when it was when you first --

 8     when you were first engaged?  Do you remember the date?  Do you remember

 9     the circumstances?  Can you describe those in just the briefest outlines

10     for us?

11        A.   Bearing in mind the date when the corridor was opened at

12     Baljkovica, on the 13th of July I was given my first task, and that was

13     to take the police to Maricici.

14        Q.   When you say, "The police," do you mean the civilian or the

15     military police?

16        A.   The civilian police.

17        Q.   Can you remember the person who gave you that order to take that

18     group to Maricici?

19        A.   I received the order from the Chief of Staff, Dragan Obrenovic.

20     He first asked me whether I was familiar with the ground and whether I

21     would be able to take that unit there, even in the dark.

22        Q.   What time of day it was when you received the order?

23        A.   It was late in the afternoon -- or actually, it was already dark

24     when I received the order.  It was at dusk.

25        Q.   Do you remember where you were when you received the order from

Page 22421

 1     Obrenovic?

 2        A.   I do not recall the exact room but I know that it was in -- on

 3     the premises of the brigade command, in the barracks.

 4        Q.   You're talking Karakaj, aren't you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And did you talk to him personally?  In other words, did he

 7     personally convey the order to you?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You acted upon the order, did you not?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   How long did you stay in the area to which you were sent in

12     Maricici?  How long did you stay there?

13        A.   I spent the night in Maricici.  I stayed there in the morning.

14     That's when they sent a vehicle to fetch me and bring me back to the

15     barracks where I received a new order.

16        Q.   How did you receive this new order to return to the barracks?

17        A.   I suppose that I received it via radio communication.  That was

18     the only way I could receive it.

19        Q.   When you say that a vehicle was sent to pick you up and bring you

20     back to the barracks, do you remember the vehicle, what kind of vehicle

21     was it?  Was it a passenger vehicle, a cargo vehicle?

22        A.   It was a passenger vehicle.

23        Q.   Do you remember who drove the vehicle?

24        A.   I really don't remember who the driver was.

25        Q.   When we are talking about that vehicle, who else returned besides

Page 22422

 1     you?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, I and maybe my escort who had escorted

 3     me to Maricici, but I'm not sure.  I can't remember.

 4        Q.   And what about the police unit that you had escorted there?  Did

 5     they remain in Maricici or what?  Did they return perhaps?

 6        A.   When I escorted the unit there, already during the night they

 7     were deployed in the Maricici sector, and they stayed in position.

 8        Q.   Where did the vehicle take you to exactly, the vehicle that had

 9     come to take you back?

10        A.   I arrived in the barracks.

11        Q.   In Karakaj?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you then learn why you had been summoned back from the field

14     mission?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Who told you?

17        A.   Chief Obrenovic told me that I had to get ready to go to Snagovo

18     to link up the police units and the units that were already in Snagovo,

19     and that together we should start scouring the terrain towards Velja

20     Glava.

21        Q.   Did you receive this order personally from Obrenovic?  Did you

22     see him personally?  Or was it again via radio or telephone or some other

23     way?

24        A.   It was ordered to me personally.

25        Q.   Can you roughly pinpoint the time of day when Obrenovic

Page 22423

 1     personally ordered you to take that new mission?

 2        A.   I can only tell you that it was probably between 10.00 and 12.00,

 3     to put it roughly, but I wouldn't be able to give you the exact time.

 4        Q.   When you say between 10.00 and 12.00, you mean before noon?

 5        A.   Yes, before noon.

 6        Q.   Did you go to that mission that Dragan Obrenovic had given you?

 7        A.   I did.

 8        Q.   Where did you go?  Who did you go with?

 9        A.   I went with a group of soldiers.  I wouldn't be able to give you

10     their exact number.  I went in the direction of Maricici to link up the

11     line from the police in Maricici to the forces in Snagovo.  I was

12     supposed to link all of them up and embark on the scouring mission

13     together with all of them.

14        Q.   Let me ask you first if you remember how you got to that area.

15        A.   I assume that we went on foot, because there is no other way to

16     go across the area beyond Maricici.  I'm not sure whether we had some

17     means of transport to Maricici.

18        Q.   Can you tell us roughly what the distance between Zvornik, or

19     that's to say the Karakaj barracks, and Maricici?

20        A.   Five to six kilometres approximately.

21        Q.   Can you describe for us what happened upon your arrival in the

22     Maricici area where you were assigned to go?

23        A.   As I was deploying the troops with the intention of linking up

24     the line between Maricici and Snagovo, nothing in particular happened.

25     Things started to happen once we embarked on the scouring mission.

Page 22424

 1        Q.   Can you just briefly describe what was it that was happening?

 2        A.   As we descended down to the foot of the Velja Glava, we came

 3     within earshot of someone, when one of our men said something out loud,

 4     an individual responded out of the forest, "Here I am, Chetnik."  We

 5     realised it wasn't a small group of people.  As we passed through the

 6     forest I saw a small group of our soldiers and then a couple of minutes

 7     later we heard shooting at the police positions in Maricici.

 8        Q.   What happened to you and your group that was headed toward Velja

 9     Glava?  What happened next?

10        A.   We lingered in the forest for some 15 to 20 minutes because at

11     that point in time a column of the Muslim army was going past the area.

12     We pulled out toward the old school building at Snagovo.

13        Q.   As you left the barracks on the mission you were given by Dragan

14     Obrenovic, did you happen to see him again on that day?

15        A.   Yes.  I saw him at Snagovo next to the old school building.  I

16     saw him and his driver.

17        Q.   Can you tell us what time of day it was?

18        A.   Past 5.00 p.m.

19        Q.   Did you speak to him at all, did he tell you anything, during

20     that encounter?  Did you tell him anything?

21        A.   He asked me what took me so long, and I replied, "Well, it could

22     have so happened that I didn't come at all."

23        Q.   Was that the extent of your conversation with Obrenovic at the

24     time?

25        A.   That was practically it.  We didn't discuss the action itself in

Page 22425

 1     detail because at the time one approximately knew how many Muslim

 2     soldiers could be found in that area.

 3        Q.   Tell me, please, do you remember or do you know if you discussed

 4     prisoners in any way with Obrenovic at the time?  Did you provide him

 5     with any information on prisoners?

 6        A.   Prisoners were not discussed at the time.  At that point I was

 7     not aware of the prisoners either being there or how many of them were

 8     there.

 9        Q.   So you did not provide him with any information on prisoners or

10     persons who brought prisoners along, if anybody did, or anything of the

11     sort?

12        A.   I was not able to.  At that point, I had not yet come across

13     prisoners.

14        Q.   How long did you stay in conversation with Obrenovic when you saw

15     him that day at Snagovo?

16        A.   Briefly.  I was told to spend the night there, since we did not

17     know what was going to happen next.  We parted ways and went to the area

18     where we were billeted next to the new school building.  This wasn't that

19     close.  I don't know, and I wouldn't be able to tell you, where he went.

20     I went to the building where soldiers and I were billeted and spent the

21     night there.

22        Q.   Tell me, were you given an assignment or an order as to what you

23     were supposed to do next on the following day?

24        A.   Yes.  I was told that I should come down to Orahovac with some of

25     the forces that were adjacent to me.

Page 22426

 1        Q.   Do you recall who gave you the order to go to Orahovac?

 2        A.   I think I received the order over the radio.  I believe so.

 3        Q.   What was the purpose of your going to Orahovac?  Do you recall

 4     what the mission was for you and your soldiers connected with your

 5     departure for Orahovac?

 6        A.   The purpose of my going to Orahovac along with some soldiers was

 7     to secure some features around Orahovac and to secure the Orahovac-Crni

 8     Vrh section of the road.  I wasn't supposed to secure the entire section

 9     of the roadway.  I was only supposed to secure the Orahovac bit.

10        Q.   On that day, or the day before, did you see a column or traces

11     left by the column?

12        A.   On the 15th, as we set out toward Orahovac, I saw two trails some

13     three metres wide perhaps.  I say "perhaps."  No grass was left on the

14     ground.  It was stamped down as if it had been trodden upon by a herd of

15     oxen.

16        Q.   Did you say elephants?

17        A.   Yes, as if, as if a herd of elephants had passed through the

18     area.  The grass was otherwise very high, and the trail they left led

19     toward Baljkovica and onwards.  I don't know where.  But the grass had

20     been flattened.  Imagine you have a patch of grass that hadn't been cut

21     for several years and then suddenly it was flattened.  That's why I had

22     this idea of a herd of elephants passing there, as if a herd of elephants

23     had been passing across the area.

24        Q.   Can we clarify?  The spot that you saw, the traces of the column,

25     was that at Orahovac or elsewhere?

Page 22427

 1        A.   That was at Snagovo.

 2        Q.   As you arrived in Orahovac on that day, did you happen to see

 3     dead bodies?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did you see freshly dug-out earth?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   How long did you stay at Orahovac?  Or can you first tell us what

 8     time of day it was when you arrived in Orahovac?

 9        A.   I arrived in Orahovac in the morning hours.  I wouldn't be able

10     to give you the exact hour.  And I stayed there until the 16th, the

11     evening of the 16th, when I went back to the barracks.

12        Q.   Can you tell us where you spent that night in Orahovac?

13        A.   It was a private home belonging to an active policeman from

14     Zvornik, close to Nedjo's cafe, if I can put it that way.  And it was

15     outside that house that I spent the night.

16        Q.   Were you on your own on the occasion, or was there someone else

17     with you who spent the night in front of that house?

18        A.   The individuals accompanying me, the signalmen, couriers, and

19     others, did.

20        Q.   Were you given an assignment that day or possibly the following

21     day?

22        A.   I didn't receive a single assignment on that day.  I received one

23     on the following day, the 16th.  The assignment was for me to secure the

24     Orahovac-Crni Vrh road.  I was told that 60 soldiers were being deployed

25     my way, to allow me to secure the road.

Page 22428

 1        Q.   Do you recall the way in which this assignment was conveyed to

 2     you?

 3        A.   It was radioed to me.  The order came from the commander, Vinko

 4     Pandurevic.  At the time, he ordered that I secure the road and that

 5     prisoners, if any were to be taken, should be kept alive at all costs.  I

 6     asked him, "What do you mean at all costs?"  And he replied, "Well,

 7     you'll see that for yourself how that should be ensured."  And then I

 8     realised that he meant that I was supposed to shoot anyone of my soldiers

 9     if they happened to kill any prisoners.

10        Q.   During your stay in Orahovac, on the 15th and the 16th, did you

11     see any prisoners at all?

12        A.   Yes.  I saw four prisoners that one of my groups captured.

13        Q.   Were they Muslims?

14        A.   Yes, they were.

15        Q.   Were they armed or not?

16        A.   One of them had a hunting rifle on him.  The other three were not

17     armed.

18        Q.   Upon seeing the four prisoners, did you do anything?  And if so,

19     can you tell us what?

20        A.   I complied with the service rules, which said that when soldiers

21     are captured, basic information should be received from them, and then

22     they should be forwarded to one's command.  This is something that I did.

23     I took a TAM vehicle, a couple of soldiers with me, who escorted these

24     prisoners to the command, and I was subsequently informed that they had

25     been taken there.

Page 22429

 1        Q.   Did I understand you correctly that they were supposed to be

 2     forwarded to your command?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In other words, to Karakaj?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So I think we'll have to leave it there for today.

 7     Our time is up.  We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

 8             Witness, we have a very important rule here that when a witness

 9     hasn't finished his or her testimony, you must not, under any

10     circumstances, communicate with anyone or allow anyone to communicate

11     with you to discuss the subject matter of your testimony.  So between

12     today and tomorrow, you have to honour this commitment that I have just

13     mentioned to you.  Okay.  Thank you.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of June,

16                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.