Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22430

 1                           Thursday, 19 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  If you could kindly

 7     call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 9     everyone.  This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin

10     Popovic et al.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Good morning, everybody.  All the

12     accused are here.

13             From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Haynes.

14             Prosecution, we have Mr. McCloskey present and Mr. Thayer.

15             All right.  The witness is here.  Good morning to you,

16     Mr. Jovanovic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are going to proceed with your testimony today.

19     You're still bound by the solemn declaration that you entered yesterday.

20             Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           WITNESS:  ZORAN JOVANOVIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

25        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, let me just remind you, we left off yesterday

Page 22431

 1     talking about the prisoners you saw in Orahovac, four of them, who were

 2     sent to the brigade command that day.  I wanted to ask you now:  Can you

 3     tell us who decided that this be done with the prisoners, that they be

 4     sent to the brigade command?

 5        A.   Well, first, following the order of the commander that I received

 6     that all the prisoners must stay alive, and according to the rules of

 7     service, every prisoner taken during combat is only briefly interrogated

 8     in the command where he is detained before being sent on to the superior

 9     command.

10        Q.   I'd like to clarify one more thing.  When you received this

11     assignment to secure that road from Orahovac towards Crni Vrh, was the

12     fighting at Baljkovica still going on?

13        A.   Well, let me tell you, I didn't hear the shooting and the

14     fighting; although, the fighting did go on.  It was only later that the

15     passage was opened.

16        Q.   Can you recall when you returned from Orahovac to the barracks?

17     In fact, do you know where you went after Orahovac?

18        A.   After Orahovac, I went back to the barracks only later that

19     night, the same day, the 16th.

20        Q.   When you returned to the barracks, did you see any prisoners

21     there at that time; and if you did, please describe it?

22        A.   Well, as I was returning to the barracks, I saw two prisoners who

23     entered a small TAM truck, and I asked:  "Is there anyone from Visegrad?"

24     One of them answered, "I am from Visegrad."  And I asked him, "Since you

25     are from Visegrad, you must know one of the more prominent men there,

Page 22432

 1     Salic."  And he said he didn't know the surname Salic even, so I noted he

 2     can't be from Visegrad after all.  Those are the only two prisoners I

 3     saw.

 4        Q.   Do you remember giving a written statement to the members of my

 5     team on the 17th of October 2007, Mr. Djordje Kalan and Mr. Pero

 6     Mijatovic?

 7        A.   I recall that.

 8        Q.   And do you remember giving a statement to the Defence team of

 9     General Pandurevic on the 7th March 2008?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I would like to clarify now certain points in those statements

12     that are not quite clear, as well as certain points in your earlier

13     testimony.

14             In the statement that you gave to my team at that time, you said

15     that on 13th July 1995, you took a group of soldiers to Maricici;

16     whereas, in your testimony, you said that it was a group of civilian

17     policemen.  Can you tell us how this error occurred?  Do you have an

18     explanation?  Did you make a mistake then when you were giving the

19     statement or maybe you were misunderstood, or did you make a mistake in

20     your testimony?

21        A.   Well, quite simply, when I was giving that first statement, and

22     when I said those were soldiers, I was thinking of them as soldiers

23     because I hadn't been told that they were civilian policemen.  It was

24     only later I learned they were civilian policemen in fact, because they

25     were in uniform, and at that time, in my eyes, everyone was a soldier.

Page 22433

 1        Q.   You also said then -- in fact, you said you don't remember quite

 2     clearly, but you said they were either from Bijeljina or from Prijedor;

 3     whereas, later, you told Mr. Sarapa that they were from Doboj.  Can you

 4     explain this discrepancy?

 5        A.   Well, it's the same thing as with those policemen, because when

 6     the order was given to take these men to Maricici, I didn't know where

 7     they were from.  I seem to have heard vaguely that they were from

 8     Prijedor; but, later, I actually learned they were from Doboj.

 9        Q.   This later information you received that they were from Doboj, is

10     that reliable or not?

11        A.   Well, I believe that's reliable because it was given to me by

12     people who knew.  They said they were from Doboj.

13        Q.   Let's go back to the 13th of July now, when you took that group

14     to Maricici.  You said the next day, in the morning, you returned to the

15     brigade; whereas, they stayed there.  I'd like to know if maybe later,

16     the following day, when you were going to the area of Snagovo, when you

17     were passing through Maricici, did they come again under your command?

18     Did they join you again somehow?

19        A.   They remained separate from me because later, when I was passing

20     again through Maricici, my only task was to reconnect the line from

21     Maricici, from the police, to our forces at Snagovo; and, at that time,

22     they were under the brigade command.

23        Q.   Was it the case that perhaps the next day, the 14th of July - and

24     you described your movements on that day - was it the case maybe that

25     they were again with you?

Page 22434

 1        A.   Well, they probably also got an assignment to search the terrain,

 2     but they didn't go with me because I didn't see them again.

 3        Q.   You said that on the 14th of July, you met up with Obrenovic at

 4     Snagovo.  When you saw him there, did you see him talking to anyone of

 5     the prisoners?  Do you recall that?

 6        A.   At that time, at Snagovo, when I saw him, there were no prisoners

 7     in that spot.

 8        Q.   Do you know Milan Maric, late Milan Maric?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   Can you remember - in fact, do you know - did he take part in

11     those activities that you described from the 13th through the 16th of

12     July?

13        A.   Yes.  He did take part in the activities.  I was in contact with

14     him once.  He was at Snagovo during those days.

15        Q.   Do you recall seeing him in Orahovac?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Could you tell me now how you managed to remember so accurately

18     these days, what exactly happened on the 13th and the 14th and the 15th

19     and the 16th?

20        A.   As for those dates, the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, I didn't remember

21     them.  The only date that I remember clearly is the 16th of July when

22     passage was opened for the Muslims towards Tuzla; and, from that day, I

23     went back in my memory and retraced my steps, so to speak, what I did the

24     previous days.

25        Q.   And as you went back in time to reconstruct the events in this

Page 22435

 1     way, do you allow the possibility that you confused the events or the

 2     dates that you placed mistakenly some events on a different day than the

 3     day they actually happened?

 4        A.   Well, I couldn't really confuse these events because I knew

 5     exactly what happened when, as far as the events themselves are

 6     concerned.  I didn't know the dates so precisely, so I went back from the

 7     only date I was sure about, the 16th.

 8        Q.   Do you recall that you testified earlier this year before the

 9     Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the case of Milorad Trbic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   We received the transcript of his testimony rather late, but I

12     noticed that in that testimony, you spoke a bit differently about these

13     events and dates than you spoke here.  I'm not going into any details now

14     because I don't suppose it will be the subject of any more questioning,

15     but can you explain these differences in the dates that you have

16     discussed today as opposed to the dates as you testified about them

17     there?

18             I noted this yesterday in the course of your testimony; but at

19     that time, I didn't have the whole transcript.  Can you explain?

20        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, I can't explain myself how that

21     happened.  All I know is that in all the statements I give, I can

22     pinpoint only the 16th of July and go back from there.  I explained the

23     13th, I went to Maricici; on the 14th, I went back; on the 15th, there

24     was the search; then came the trip to Orahovac and return from Orahovac;

25     and later on, I didn't go back there.  How this confusion in dates

Page 22436

 1     occurred, I don't know.  It can be my mistake.  It's possible.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.  I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             The Beara Defence team?  Mr. Sarapa, you are right.

 5             Mr. Sarapa.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Sarapa:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.  Let me introduce

 8     myself, officially, this time; although, we know each other.  My name is

 9     Djordje Sarapa and I represent Mr. Pandurevic.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Following upon the questioning by my colleague, Mr. Zivanovic, I

12     will just try to clarify some points.  You said that were you the deputy

13     of the 6th Battalion; that you were for a time even the commander of the

14     R Battalion; and towards the end, you were chief of the staff office

15     during these events.

16             As the commander of the units that were under your command, you

17     were subordinated to Vinko Pandurevic.  To whom were you subordinated as

18     chief of the staff office?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Some extra microphones are

20     on.  Audibility is very poor.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Who has his or her microphone on?  I couldn't see

22     any.  But, anyway, anyone who has microphone on, please switch it off.

23     All right.

24             Let's continue, Mr. Sarapa; and then if we have further problems,

25     we will try to solve them.  Go ahead.

Page 22437

 1             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Shall I repeat my question?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Then answer the question, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the staff office worked for

 5     the entire command of the brigade; for the brigade, that is.  Officially,

 6     I really wouldn't know to whom I was directly subordinate.  I suppose it

 7     was either to the commander of the brigade or the Chief of Staff of the

 8     brigade because it was the staff office, but I really couldn't tell you

 9     exactly now under whose command this staff office was.

10             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Could you say who commanded the Zvornik Brigade on the 13th of

12     July 1995?

13        A.   On the 13th of July, it was Dragan Obrenovic, because the

14     commander was not there.  He was absent from the brigade.

15        Q.   From whom did you receive orders on the 14th of July?

16        A.   On the 14th of July, I received orders from the Chief of Staff,

17     Dragan Obrenovic.

18        Q.   Who commanded the brigade on the 14th of July?

19        A.   The orders that I received from Dragan Obrenovic, he commanded

20     the brigade then.

21        Q.   You said, on the 14th of July, you set off to search the terrain.

22     Did you, indeed, search the terrain that day?

23        A.   We set out to search the terrain that day.  We covered about 300,

24     400 metres, and then we stopped.

25        Q.   Can you tell us why you did not carry out this search of the

Page 22438

 1     terrain?

 2        A.   The search stopped the moment when we realised, and we saw, a

 3     group of soldiers of the Muslim forces at the foot of Velja Glava, and

 4     our task was to search Velja Glava going towards the top.  Perhaps not

 5     immediately, but 15 minutes after we entered the forest, we heard

 6     shooting from the direction of Liplje and on towards Maricici.

 7        Q.   On that day, the 14th of July, were you involved in any combat

 8     activities?

 9        A.   On the 14th, I did not participate in any combat activities.

10        Q.   In response to a question from my colleague Mr. Zivanovic, you

11     said that on the 15th of July, you were given an assignment by radio to

12     go to Orahovac.  Can you tell me from whom?

13        A.   On the 15th of July, I received that order to go to Orahovac by

14     radio, and the only person who could have issued it was the Chief of

15     Staff, who was then at the command of the brigade.  In fact, I don't know

16     where exactly he was, but he was standing in for the brigade commander

17     because the brigade commander was not in Zvornik.

18        Q.   On that day, the 15th, did you participate in combat activities?

19        A.   On that day, I did not take part in any combat activities because

20     I was moving with that part of the forces under my command, going down

21     from Snagovo to Orahovac.

22        Q.   Who was in command of the Zvornik Brigade on the 15th of July?

23        A.   On the 15th of July, I received orders in the morning from the

24     Chief of Staff, Dragan Obrenovic; and the first time I received an order

25     from the commander, that was on the 16th of July.

Page 22439

 1        Q.   In answering my learned friend Zivanovic's questions, you said

 2     that during your conversation via radio with brigade commander

 3     Pandurevic, he told you that soldiers from Bratunac were on their way.

 4     Can we clarify a few things about these soldiers?  Did you act upon the

 5     commander's order with regard to those soldiers?

 6        A.   Since the brigade commander, Mr. Vinko Pandurevic, ordered me at

 7     the time to provide security for the trip between Orahovac and Crni Vrh,

 8     because he was sending 60 soldiers from Bratunac, I acted upon his order;

 9     and when these soldiers arrived, I went in the direction of Orahovac and

10     Crni Vrh.

11             However, the mission was not accomplished because the 60 soldiers

12     refused to obey orders and told me that I was taking them into death, and

13     then I told them, "How can you say that?  How can you say that I'm taking

14     you to a certain death if I'm walking in front of you, maybe a kilometre

15     in front of you?"  Then I reported back to the commander, telling him

16     that I could not obey his order, that I could not execute the order, and

17     I explained the reasons.  Then he ordered me to return those men back,

18     and that's exactly what I did.

19        Q.   When he told you to return them back to Bratunac, did he tell you

20     anything else about that?  Did he explain why he wanted them back in

21     Bratunac?  The previous order was for them to be deployed as

22     reinforcement.  How come they were no longer needed there?

23        A.   They had been sent to provide security for the Orahovac-Crni Vrh

24     road.  That's why they were sent in the first place.  Probably, there was

25     no need for them to stay any longer, and that's why an order was issued

Page 22440

 1     for them to return.

 2        Q.   When Pandurevic told you to send them back, did he tell you

 3     anything about the corridor?

 4        A.   At that moment, he didn't say anything about the corridor.  It

 5     was only later that we learned that a corridor had been opened and that

 6     an order had been issued for the Muslim forces to be let through the

 7     corridor.  That was in Baljkovica, but I wasn't aware of that at the

 8     time.  It was said that three trenches had been vacated, that Muslims

 9     were able to go through, that they shouldn't be attacked, that they

10     should be let go freely.  I was not that close to that place.  I was a

11     bit further away.

12        Q.   Who was it who issued an order to open the corridor and let the

13     Muslims go through?

14        A.   As far as I know, I know that it was commander Vinko Pandurevic

15     who ordered that.

16        Q.   Did he act upon an order of the superior command, or did he do it

17     of his own will?  Did he make that decision independently?

18        A.   I can't answer your question because I was not in a position to

19     know what the superior command did; however, later on, I learned that the

20     commander did that independently in order to avoid major losses.

21        Q.   You said that Pandurevic told you on the 16th of July that

22     prisoners should remain alive at all costs, that they should be

23     protected.  Tell me, please, what was the prevailing practice before that

24     in case people were captured?  What do you know about that, and

25     especially in view of the fact that you also commanded a unit in the

Page 22441

 1     brigade?

 2        A.   It was the same.  If you were to comply with the military rules,

 3     every prisoner who was taken on the ground in the area of combat

 4     activities, as I have just described a while ago, the commander in

 5     command had to interview that person and send him to the superior

 6     command.  And the order for them to stay alive at all costs, I received

 7     that order on the 16th, and that's when I found it very strange, when he

 8     said at all costs.  I questioned him about that, and he told me, "Well,

 9     you are smart enough.  You will understand what at all costs means."

10             The way I understood it was that I should stay with every soldier

11     of mine mand make sure that nobody killed a single prisoner.  However,

12     anybody who was familiar with the rules would act in the exact same way.

13     Nobody would kill a prisoner but, rather, send them to a superior command

14     to be questioned, interviewed; and a then decision would then be made

15     what to do next.

16        Q.   You said that your unit captured four Muslim soldiers.  Tell me,

17     please, how did you treat them?

18        A.   At the moment when my group of soldiers captured these four

19     soldiers, the first thing they did was to take weapons from them, they

20     only had one hunting rifle, and then they took them from the Krizevici to

21     Orahovac.  They treated them in an ordinary way.  They were not ill

22     treated.  They were not beaten.  They were interviewed, not on premises,

23     however, but outside; and maybe ten minutes into the interviews, they

24     were loaded on to a TAM lorry, and two of my soldiers escorted them to

25     the brigade command.

Page 22442

 1        Q.   According to your information and knowledge, when prisoners were

 2     taken, before that, would the members of the Zvornik Brigade treat them

 3     in an identical way, similarly to the way that you've just described?

 4        A.   I did not have an occasion to see anybody being taken prisoner

 5     before, a soldier being taken prisoner.  But I believe that those who

 6     captured them complied with the rules and treated these prisoners the way

 7     prisoners should be treated, but I was not witness to any such practices,

 8     I must say.

 9        Q.   On the road from Orahovac to Zvornik, did you see any dead bodies

10     lying by the road?

11        A.   From Orahovac to the brigade command, I did not see a single dead

12     body either on the road or by the road.

13        Q.   Where did you spend the night between the 16th and the 17th of

14     July?

15        A.   I spent that night in the brigade command.

16        Q.   On that day, on the 16th of July, did you see Pandurevic at all?

17        A.   As far as I can remember, on that day he was not in the barracks,

18     or at least I didn't see him there.

19             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

20     P377, page 150 -- page 152, please.  This is 150.  ERN number 5770 are

21     the four last digits.  And in English, it's the same page number, 152.

22     Can you please scroll down to the bottom part of the page?  Thank you.

23     That's okay now.

24        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, this is a page from the duty operations officer's

25     logbook, and the entries were made on the 16th of July.  And if you look

Page 22443

 1     at the last four lines, it says, "At 2155 hours, the commander requested

 2     100 dry daily rations, rifle grenades, and hand grenades to be sent to

 3     Orahovac, and he also wanted to know how much ammunition has arrived

 4     today."

 5             Can you please tell us what does this mean?

 6        A.   Since the duty operations officer was on duty in the brigade

 7     command, this can only mean that the commander was not in the brigade

 8     command himself because he communicated with the brigade command in a

 9     different way and requested the things that are mentioned in here.

10             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can you now move on to the next

11     page, which is 153.  Very well.  This is good now.  Can we please see the

12     bottom of the page, the end of the text.  A bit more, further down, more.

13     I need the very end of that text, the very bottom of the page.  Very

14     well.  That's okay now.

15        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, this is another entry made on the same day, on the

16     16th of July.  The time is 2317 hours.  It says:  "The security centre

17     reported that enemy groups have been spotted moving from Krstina to

18     Crni Vrh at 2317 hours.  Passed on to the commander at the brigade IKM."

19     At least this is what the text reads.

20             How do you explain this?

21        A.   Since he received the information, the duty operations officer

22     who was at the brigade command, he conveyed that information to the IKM,

23     which means that the commander was present at the IKM.

24             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I will no longer need this document.

25     Thank you.

Page 22444

 1        Q.   Do you know when Pandurevic returned from the IKM on the 17th of

 2     July?

 3        A.   To be honest with you, I wouldn't be able to give you the exact

 4     time.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Jovanovic, just a moment.  Please bear with me.

 6             A witness heard before this Trial Chamber stated that commander

 7     Pandurevic, on the 18th of July 1995, had issued an order which was

 8     construed in the following way, or understood in the following way:  No

 9     enemy soldiers will be captured, and that's why they were all shot at and

10     there was no room left for them to surrender to anybody.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did you ever --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer?

14             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, my friend has referred to an order,

15     and I'm just wondering what that order is.  And, perhaps, it might be

16     more helpful if that was shown to the witness and we had the actual

17     language from the order, whatever it is.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

19             Which order are you referring to, specifically, Mr. Sarapa, and

20     can you give us the reference numbers so that we can show it to the

21     witness?

22             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I'm not referring to any orders.  I

23     never said that there was an order.  I just said that one of the

24     witnesses who testified here said that Pandurevic had issued an order,

25     and I did not say that there was an order in any form.  That's what was

Page 22445

 1     stated by protected Witness PB-168 [as interpreted] on the 27th of

 2     September, on pages 15908 and 15909 of the LiveNote.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer?

 4             MR. THAYER:  In which case, Mr. President, I just ask that the

 5     portion actually be read from the transcript, as opposed to being

 6     paraphrased.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22446











11 Page 22446 redacted. Private session.















Page 22447

 1                           [Open session]

 2             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 3     page 2?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  For the record, we are in open session.

 5             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] What I meant was the first full page

 6     with text on it.  Yes, that's the page.

 7        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, can you explain the meaning of the abbreviation

 8     ZJ/SS?

 9        A.   Every military document, and this one is no exception, contains

10     the abbreviation standing for the person who typed the document and the

11     person who drafted the document; in this particular case, it's ZJ/SS.

12        Q.   Who was it who drafted this document, in view of the initials ZJ?

13        A.   ZJ would be my initials.  I was the author of the document.

14             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can we now see the first page of the

15     document.

16        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, first of all, do you see the date of this regular

17     combat report?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What is the date?

20        A.   19 July.

21        Q.   1995.  This is a regular combat report which was sent to the

22     command of the Drina Corps.  Please look at item number 2.  In the fifth

23     line, there is a sentence.  May I read it to you, please:  "During the

24     scouring of the terrain, two Muslim soldiers were captured and 13 were

25     liquidated."

Page 22448

 1             Can you please tell us what is the meaning of this part of the

 2     sentence, "two arrested or captured"?

 3        A.   That means that the group that was there, I suppose there were

 4     several groups, that among that group, two were captured, arrested, taken

 5     prisoner.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  Can you please explain the term, "13 Muslim

 7     soldiers liquidated"?  What's the meaning of that part of the sentence?

 8        A.   Since scouring of the terrain is one aspect of combat activities,

 9     during those combat activities, the team that was scouring the terrain

10     probably got in a skirmish with the soldiers, the others probably opened

11     fire, there was an exchange of fire, and that's why they were liquidated.

12             That means that they were not first captured and then liquidated,

13     because if that had happened, the two would have also been liquidated.

14     This means that during combat, these people who put up resistance were

15     eliminated.

16        Q.   Does that mean that they were killed in action, during combat?

17     At least that's what I understand from your explanation.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer?

19             MR. THAYER:  Objection, Your Honour.  Lack of foundation at this

20     point.  If we could have some foundation laid for the basis of his

21     knowledge for this explanation, for how this happened.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  We find it a perfectly legitimate question, and

24     let's proceed.  Thank you.  The witness has answered it any way.  I heard

25     him answer it, but it's not in the transcript.

Page 22449

 1             Can you repeat your question, please, Mr. Sarapa?

 2             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Does that mean that these 13 Muslim soldiers were killed in

 4     combat?

 5        A.   Since scouring is a type of combat, these three soldiers [as

 6     interpreted] were killed in combat.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thirteen.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  13 soldiers.

10             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I will no longer need this document.

11             Can I make a correction in the transcript, at page 19, line 9?

12     Very well.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, since you were a member of the Zvornik Brigade

14     from the very beginning of the war, and that you occupied various

15     positions in that brigade, I'd like to ask you a few questions in this

16     regard.  Can you tell us who commanded the Zvornik Brigade when Vinko

17     Pandurevic was absent?

18        A.   When the commander was absent, the brigade was commanded by the

19     Chief of Staff.

20        Q.   Do you know what his powers were at the time, in those cases?

21        A.   Well, when he stood in for the commander of the brigade, that is,

22     when he commanded, he had the same powers as the brigade commander.

23        Q.   Do you know who gave him his orders?

24        A.   He received orders from the superior command.  That would be the

25     corps command.

Page 22450

 1        Q.   At that time, when Vinko Pandurevic was not in the brigade, when

 2     Dragan Obrenovic was standing in for him, how was he addressed?  How was

 3     he usually addressed?

 4        A.   As for myself, I addressed him by his rank; otherwise, we would

 5     call him Chief of Staff or even Commander, because I couldn't call him

 6     deputy commander, but we would either call him chief or by his rank.

 7        Q.   In performing various duties, you were among other things the

 8     duty officer, the duty operations officer.  Can you tell us what is

 9     normally entered into the notebook of the duty operations officer?

10        A.   All reports received from positions, from battalions, and all the

11     other units, including certain messages that come in for the commander,

12     for the Chief of Staff, or others in the brigade command, some of them

13     official, some of them private.

14        Q.   In the absence of the commander, when he is still the commander

15     of the brigade but he is not around, do you also enter the telephone

16     number at which he's available?

17        A.   Yes.  You enter that telephone number because the duty operations

18     officer must know at all times how to reach the commander, in case the

19     superior command calls, for instance.

20        Q.   In view of your experience and the fact that you are an officer,

21     major by rank, you knew a lot about the affairs of the brigade, including

22     administrative aspects.  Did it ever happen that an order is written,

23     dated on the date it was written, but signed by the commander the

24     following day?

25        A.   That is easily possible because it all depends.  Sometimes orders

Page 22451

 1     were written in the afternoon or in the evening, depending on the current

 2     situation.  Sometimes the commander is not immediately available to sign

 3     it before it can be forwarded, and the first thing to be done in the

 4     morning is to give it to the commander to sign it.  If an order is

 5     urgent, then it was sent on, not really unsigned but in the form of

 6     telegram with the agreement of the commander, just so that the order can

 7     be executed.  But it did happen that an order is written on one day and

 8     signed the following day.

 9             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can we call up document 3D125.

10        Q.   Please look at it.  As you can see, it's a document from the

11     Ministry of Defence, the Zvornik department.  The subject of the document

12     is the list of military conscripts called up for the 15th of July 1995.

13             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can we see the signature page, the

14     last page.

15        Q.   As you can see, it is signed, "Acting Chief, Ristan

16     Cvijetinovic."

17             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] We can go back to the front page.

18        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, look at these names.  Do you know anyone?

19        A.   Well, I know the first one, Albert Buh; Radan Tosic.  Just

20     scanning.

21        Q.   Tell us, what is this document?

22        A.   This document is a list of persons called up for the 15th of

23     July, military conscripts who are ordered to report to the brigade

24     command.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Mr. Sarapa and Mr. Thayer, if you read

Page 22452

 1     the original, yes, you are correct that what it says; namely, list of

 2     military conscripts called up on the 15th of July of 1995.  The English

 3     translation, however, is not correct.  The English translation that we

 4     have for that entry, we have list of military conscripts called up on

 5     17th July 1995.

 6             So, please, meet and decide which one is correct - I would take

 7     it the original is the correct version - and have the English translation

 8     corrected.

 9             In the meantime, we can proceed.

10             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in this regard, the

11     date of the document, it's dated the 17th of July.  However, the subject

12     where it's indicated what needs to be done is --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't need an explanation, Mr. Sarapa.  Please

14     proceed with your next question.

15             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   These people listed here, are they, in fact, the R Battalion?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   For a while, you also served as the commander of the R Battalion.

19     Can you tell us who was responsible for their mobilisation?

20        A.   The responsibility for all mobilisation in Republika Srpska lay

21     on the Ministry of Defence.

22        Q.   Just one more question.  Earlier today, Mr. Zivanovic clarified,

23     with your assistance, that statement given to the Defence team of

24     Mr. Popovic and Mr. Pandurevic, that it was a group of civilian police

25     that you took on the 13th to Maricici, it was not military police.  That

Page 22453

 1     needs no further clarification.

 2             However, in para 1 of the statement you gave to me, it says

 3     you've been living in Zvornik since 1995.  In fact, you told me you have

 4     lived in Zvornik since 1975 and you worked in Birac.  So can we take it

 5     that it is just a simple typo?

 6        A.   It must be, because it's not possible that I've lived there since

 7     1995 because the events we are discussing took place in 1995.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.

 9             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             Beara Defence team?

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  Morning, Mr. President.  Thank you.  We have agreed

13     with the Nikolic Defence that they are going to proceed first, with your

14     permission, of course, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  One moment, because my attention is being

16     drawn to the fact that Mr. Bourgon was standing.

17             MR. BOURGON:  That was to say exactly what Mr. Ostojic is saying

18     now, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

20             Then you go first, Mr. Bourgon, please.

21             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I can proceed right away

22     or we can take the break now, whatever pleases the Trial Chamber.  I'm

23     read toy to proceed with my questions.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think you know us well enough now, whatever you

25     prefer.

Page 22454

 1             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll proceed.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   First of all, let me introduce myself.  My name is Stephane

 7     Bourgon, and I represent, along with my colleague, Jelena Nikolic, we

 8     represent together Drago Nikolic in these proceedings.

 9             There are a few issues I would like to clarify with you this

10     morning further to your responses you gave to Mr. Zivanovic, and the

11     first area I'd like to get into is the two orders that you mentioned

12     receiving from Dragan Obrenovic.

13             So, first, I'd like to go back to something you said today, that

14     it's difficult for you to remember or to make out the dates from the

15     13th to the 16th of July.  That was on page 5 today, lines 18 to 22.  I

16     only mention this so that my colleague can refer to these lines.

17             But you said that you did remember one date, and that was when

18     the corridor was opened on the 16th of July; is that correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And you also said, on page 6, at lines 2 to 3, that with regards

21     to the event, you know exactly what happened; is that correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   So, I'd like to address maybe the first order that you received,

24     and you mentioned that was the evening of 13 July.  And I'd just like to

25     confirm that when you received that order, you mentioned yesterday, on

Page 22455

 1     page 63, lines 5 to 6, that you received the order at dusk or that it was

 2     already dark; is that correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   And this order was given to you personally by Dragan Obrenovic.

 5     We know that from yesterday.  I would just like to confirm that this was

 6     given to you face-to-face, like in person, by Dragan Obrenovic; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And I also understand from your testimony that when you did

10     receive that order, that group of civilian police had not yet arrived; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Well, when I received the order, I didn't see them immediately.

13     I just received the order that I would be taking them and to be ready.

14        Q.   And, in the meantime, while you were waiting for them, you

15     mentioned yesterday that you remained on the command, and what did you do

16     during that period?

17        A.   Well, I practically didn't do anything.  I was just getting

18     ready, getting ready my weapon, and waiting for these policemen to come

19     so that I can take them to destination.

20        Q.   Now, yesterday, you mentioned that at that point, you were in the

21     barracks.  And I'd like to just confirm with you that during that waiting

22     time, that you were actually in the command of the Zvornik Brigade, the

23     main building; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And during this period, I'd like to know, if you could recall,

Page 22456

 1     whether you saw that night the brigade operations duty officer.

 2        A.   Well, I saw the duty operations officer, but I couldn't tell you

 3     exactly who that was.

 4        Q.   And if I suggest to you, Mr. Jovanovic, that based on information

 5     that we have, that Sreten Milosevic was the duty officer that night, is

 6     that a possibility?

 7        A.   It's a possibility.  Why not?  He was an officer, too.

 8        Q.   And if I look at the time you received the order, until the time

 9     you actually left for Maricici with this group of civilian police, how

10     many hours elapsed between the two, between receiving the order and

11     actually leaving for the field?

12        A.   Well, what can I tell you?  I cannot confirm how many hours

13     passed, but it was already dark.  Visibility was almost down to zero.

14     But exactly how much time elapsed, I cannot tell you precisely.

15        Q.   But can you give us an approximate time?  Is it closer to one

16     hour, or is it, like, well over one hour or maybe hours?  Just the time

17     you received the order and the time you leave for the field.

18        A.   Well, two or three hours, let's say.

19        Q.   And during that period, I would like to know if you saw anyone

20     within the command of the Zvornik Brigade who was not from the brigade.

21        A.   To the best of my recollection, I didn't see anyone who was not a

22     member of the brigade, but it's still possible there was someone that I

23     didn't see.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Jovanovic, it was referred earlier that you testified in

25     Sarajevo earlier this year, and I have here a copy of your testimony.

Page 22457

 1             And the question here was asked to you, whether there was a

 2     Captain First Class from Bratunac brigade who visited that night on

 3     the 13th, and your answer -- the exact question I will read, and that was

 4     on page 12 of the transcript of this testimony, is as follows:

 5             "The question is, please listen carefully, did a captain from

 6     Bratunac Brigade visit that night, the 13th?  Can you remember him

 7     coming?"

 8             And your response was:  "No."

 9             Do you stand by this testimony today?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   And did you -- first of all, do you know Drago Nikolic?

12        A.   Of course.

13        Q.   And did you see Drago Nikolic in the brigade command that night?

14        A.   Well, as far as I remember, I did see him.

15        Q.   That is the night of the 13th, when you received that order from

16     Obrenovic?

17        A.   Well, what can I tell you?  I think I saw him, but I can't be

18     100 per cent sure.

19        Q.   I have information, according to which Drago Nikolic was the duty

20     officer at the IKM that night.  So is it possible that that's a mistake?

21        A.   Well, let me tell you, I have to repeat, I maybe saw him but it

22     doesn't have to mean I did.  It's also possible he was on duty at the

23     forward command post.  Somebody must have given orders for him to be here

24     or there.  My answer is:  I couldn't tell you for sure because, as I

25     said, I'm not quite sure.  I'm not certain.

Page 22458

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's leave it at that, because we are bordering on

 2     speculation, pretty much.

 3             MR. BOURGON:  I'm moving on, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 5             MR. BOURGON:

 6        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, do you know anyone by the name of Mihajlo Galic?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   And do you know who -- what position, if any, did Mihajlo Galic

 9     have in the brigade in July of 1995?

10        A.   As far as I know, he was in the mobilisation department.

11        Q.   And do you recall saying -- seeing Mihajlo Galic in the brigade

12     command that night?

13        A.   Well, again, I can't be 100 per cent sure.

14        Q.   Now, just before the break, maybe a couple of questions.  We did

15     have the opportunity of meeting in the past week; is that correct,

16     Mr. Jovanovic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And I would just like to ask you before the break:  Do you recall

19     that, when I asked you whether you had seen Drago Nikolic in the brigade

20     command that night, that your answer on that occasion was "no"?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes?

22             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, now is as good a time as any.  But

23     before the witness answers, I just ask my friend if there are any

24     proofing notes from this meeting that he had, and he's obviously

25     referring to some notes.  We have received nothing, had no knowledge that

Page 22459

 1     there was such a session.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

 3             MR. BOURGON:  There is no notes.  I met the witness, like I meet

 4     all witnesses, and there is no note produced.  This is a witness I'm

 5     cross-examining.  He's not my witness, and I did not produce any notes

 6     and did not intend to produce any notes.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's have the break.

 8             MR. BOURGON:  Maybe, Mr. President, the witness can answer the

 9     question before the break.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, of course.  Go ahead, answer the question,

11     please, Mr. Jovanovic.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that I answered "no."

13     But even to the previous question, I said:  "I cannot say with 100 per

14     cent certainty that I saw him at the barracks."  I told you I didn't see

15     him.  That's true.

16             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.  We will take the break

17     and resume with my questioning after.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We'll have a 25-minute break now.

19     Thank you.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, I will now resume with my questions, and I'd like

25     to go back quickly to the person called Mihajlo Galic.  Would I be

Page 22460

 1     correct to say that Mihajlo Galic had a problem with his leg, and that is

 2     why he had been transferred to administrative services?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And would it be correct to say that Mihajlo Galic, for that

 5     reason, to the best of your recollection, never left the brigade command?

 6     Is that correct?

 7        A.   As far as I know, that's correct, he didn't.

 8        Q.   And do you recall where the office of Mihajlo Galic was in the

 9     brigade command?

10        A.   Of course, I do.  It was just across the hallway from mine.

11        Q.   And where was the office of Mihajlo Galic facing?

12        A.   Its windows were facing the main Zvornik-Tuzla -- or rather,

13     Zvornik-Bijeljina road.

14        Q.   And when we met, Mr. Jovanovic, I asked you if you knew or if you

15     had any information concerning the fact that Mihajlo Galic was sent to

16     the IKM that night to replace the duty officer.  Do you recall what your

17     answer was then?

18        A.   I must tell you honestly that I don't remember.

19        Q.   I'll just remind you what you -- according to the notes I have,

20     you said:  "That night I think he spent the night in the brigade."

21             Do you recall saying that?

22        A.   Now that you've jogged my memory, I suppose I did say that.

23        Q.   And today, while you are before the Trial Chamber, do you have

24     any recollection of this, of the events as they happened on the 13th of

25     July 1995?

Page 22461

 1        A.   The only thing I remember well, now that you have mentioned the

 2     13th and when I link it up with the 16th, that's when I received the

 3     order to take the police troops to Maricici, my stay in Maricici, and the

 4     rest of the events.  And the other details escape me.

 5        Q.   Now, one of the reasons you were selected by Obrenovic to take

 6     those people to the field, would I be right in saying, is because you

 7     knew well the terrain?  Is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  I was very familiar with the terrain, from the time when I

 9     was a civilian, because that's the terrain that our civilian scouts used

10     to use to go through.  That's how I became very familiar with the

11     terrain.

12        Q.   I'd like to move on now to the morning of 14 July, or, in any

13     event, the next day.  And the next day, you mentioned yesterday, that

14     this order to return to Standard was communicated to you via radio; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So I take it, then, that you had a radio with you while you were

18     in the field?

19        A.   It was not I who had it, but the unit that was in the field.

20     They were the ones who conveyed the radio message to me, and the message

21     was that I should return to the barracks and that a car would come to

22     fetch me.

23        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Jovanovic, that people or those individuals

24     who were communicating on the radio were using code names?

25        A.   Every communication via radio did involve code names.

Page 22462

 1        Q.   And do you recall anyone using the code name Lovac or Lovac 1?

 2        A.   Let me tell you this.  Those would fall under the common code

 3     names chosen, but what can I tell you at the moment?  I am familiar with

 4     Lovac and Lovac 1.  But whether those were code names that were used at

 5     that time or any other time, I wouldn't be able to tell you because I

 6     don't know.

 7        Q.   That's perfectly okay, considering the number of years.  You

 8     mentioned yesterday, on page 65, lines 7 to 12, that you returned between

 9     10.00 and noon in the morning of the 14th of July.  I would just like you

10     to confirm, once again, that that order that was then given to you was

11     given to you personally face-to-face by Dragan Obrenovic; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   At the time, Dragan Obrenovic was standing in for the commander

14     on that day and the previous day, when he had issued the order to me to

15     take the troops.  But he did not order me that personally, so I can't say

16     that I immediately recognised his voice.  He used radio and he conveyed

17     this message to me, and the message was that I should return to the

18     barracks.  And Dragan Obrenovic was waiting for me at the barracks with a

19     new task, a new mission to fulfil.

20        Q.   I thank you for that answer.  My question maybe was not precise.

21     I was talking about the moment you were at the barracks, when you did

22     return between 10.00 and 12, that you did have a conversation then with

23     Dragan Obrenovic; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.  That did happen.

25        Q.   And is there any possibility in your mind today, or any doubt in

Page 22463

 1     your mind today, that you may have had a conversation with anybody else

 2     on that day at the brigade command?

 3        A.   I had other conversations with other people, but it was Dragan

 4     Obrenovic who issued me with an order to go to Snagovo to scour the

 5     terrain.  I did have other conversations, very casual conversations, with

 6     others that had nothing to do with Dragan Obrenovic's order.

 7             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, can we move into private session,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's move into private session, please.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22464

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             MR. BOURGON:

 6        Q.   In the exhibits that have been entered into evidence in this

 7     case, we have the contents of radio communications, better known as

 8     tactical intercepts.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  And just for the -- to refer my colleague to the

10     right place, if need be I'll show it to you but I don't think it will be

11     required, I'm referring to Exhibit P2232, to English page 6 and B/C/S

12     page 12.

13        Q.   According to this information, which dates from 14 July, there is

14     a radio conversation between someone called Lovac and someone else called

15     Lovac 1.

16             And the information here, it says:  "Check in the base if Zoran

17     Jovanovic has set off already, and then let me know."

18             To your knowledge, is there anyone else by the name of Zoran

19     Jovanovic who could have been in the command at that time on the 14th of

20     July?

21        A.   If it's about leaving for Snagovo, then it would be me.  I don't

22     think there was any other Zoran Jovanovic besides me.

23        Q.   We also have some information that was given to us by the

24     Prosecution that in 2001, you had a meeting with the counsel representing

25     Dragan Obrenovic.  Do you recall such a meeting?

Page 22465

 1        A.   I only recall an American who came to Zvornik and who was

 2     representing Dragan Obrenovic.

 3        Q.   And to the best of your recollection, was there anybody else

 4     present when you met with this American lawyer?

 5        A.   As far as I can remember, there was Dragan Obrenovic's brother,

 6     an interpreter, and another person, but I really don't know who that

 7     person was.

 8        Q.   And do you remember any characteristics about that other person?

 9        A.   The only thing I remember -- or the only person I remember is

10     Dragan Obrenovic's brother because they look very much alike, and I also

11     remember the American lawyer with whom I discussed certain things.

12     That's how I remember him.  And as for the other two, I really wouldn't

13     be able to tell you anything about them.

14        Q.   To the best of your recollection, was there another Serb lawyer

15     present there?

16        A.   The only person I spoke to was this American lawyer.  I suppose

17     that the other person whom I don't remember was also a lawyer from

18     Serbia, but I really wouldn't be able to give you either his name or even

19     describe him because I don't remember.

20        Q.   And if I suggest to you, Mr. Jovanovic, that this was a

21     Greek-American lawyer, does that ring a bell to you?

22        A.   It does ring a bell, but that was not then, but another time.

23     There was another time when this Greek-American lawyer was present, but

24     we did not speak about Dragan Obrenovic.  I can't remember what we spoke

25     about, but I'm sure that this other person, the Greek-American, was not

Page 22466

 1     present at the same time when this first American lawyer was present.

 2        Q.   I thank you for this clarification.  Now, according to the

 3     information given to us by the Prosecution, it appears that when you had

 4     this meeting, that you did not remember who had given you the order on

 5     the 13th of July to take those civilian police to Maricici.

 6             Do you recall saying that or can you explain that?

 7        A.   The only thing I can tell you now, and the only thing that I

 8     could certainly remember then, was that Dragan Obrenovic gave me that

 9     order.  Now, whether I said at the time that I did not remember who had

10     issued the order to me, I can't say for a fact because I don't remember.

11     But I know that nobody else could have issued that order but the

12     commander or the Chief of Staff -- or the deputy commander.

13             Since the commander wasn't there, the only person who could have

14     issued that order was the Chief of Staff, and the Chief of Staff was

15     Dragan Obrenovic.  And that's the long and the short of it.

16        Q.   Now, my colleague referred to your testimony in Sarajevo, earlier

17     this year, where you might have said that those orders instead of being

18     issued on the 13th and the 14th, was on the 14th and the 15th, of July.

19             I would just like you to confirm that there was, in fact, two

20     orders:  One given the night when you took that police to Maricici and

21     one given the next morning.  Is that correct?

22        A.   These two orders that were issued on the 13th and on the 14th

23     were, indeed, issued.  The first one on the 13th to take the police to

24     Maricici, to link up Snagovo and Maricici; and on the 14th, the order was

25     issued for me to go and scour the terrain.

Page 22467

 1        Q.   I'd like to move now to while you are in the field on the 14th of

 2     July.  And you mentioned yesterday, on page 66, lines 20 to 23, that you

 3     saw Dragan Obrenovic again in the field, and that was around 5.00 p.m.

 4     Do you recall saying this yesterday?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you also said, on page 67, that you had not discussed

 7     anything in relation to the prisoners with Dragan Obrenovic; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   That is also correct, yes.

10             MR. BOURGON:  Could we go into private session, Mr. President,

11     please.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's move to private session, please.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22468

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are back in open session.

14             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Concerning the encounter with the Muslim forces on that day,

16     page 66, lines 9 to 10 of yesterday, was that before or after you met

17     with Dragan Obrenovic?

18        A.   That was before my meeting with Dragan Obrenovic.

19        Q.   And that is probably why you answered to him, when he said, "What

20     took you so long," that's probably why you gave him that answer; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   Probably, that was the case.  When he asked me what had taken me

23     so long, I only know that I told him that it could have even happened

24     that I never came back at all.  And I was perspiring so profusely when I

25     was there, that my clothes that I was wearing, my uniform, was all wet.

Page 22469

 1        Q.   Now, this engagement with the -- encounters with the Muslim

 2     forces, would I be right in saying that it took place in Liplje which is

 3     just under Maricici?

 4        A.   The encounter with the Muslim forces actually was a combat

 5     encounter, which involved the police and the Muslim forces that were on

 6     their way from Liplje to Maricici.  However, my combat encounter with the

 7     Muslim forces did not take place at that time.

 8             As we started scouring the terrain, we were at the very entrance

 9     into Velja Glava which is a very thick forest.  And below us, a Muslim

10     column had passed before we got there.  So we did not have any official

11     encounter, but I saw them passing by.  Once they had passed by, there was

12     this combat between Liplje and Maricici; and maybe ten minutes or 15

13     minutes later, we started withdrawing towards Snagovo, towards the area

14     where our units were.

15        Q.   And that combat encounter between the civilian police that you

16     describe, how long did it last and was that a big attack, to your

17     recollection?

18        A.   I can't tell you whether it lasted long or short.  It's difficult

19     for me to say that.  I could only hear fierce shooting; and only later,

20     in conversation with certain people, I learned that the commander of that

21     police unit had been taken prisoner during that encounter.

22        Q.   I move now, Mr. Jovanovic, to a different topic, which was also

23     discussed briefly today, and that is the fact that you did perform the

24     function of brigade operations duty officer.

25             You can confirm this, right?

Page 22470

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you actually performed that duty many times?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And I'd like to know, based on your experience, to whom does the

 5     brigade operations duty officer is subordinated to?

 6        A.   The duty officer of the brigade is subordinated to the brigade

 7     commander; in his absence, to the Chief of Staff of the brigade.

 8        Q.   I'd like to show you a document, Mr. Jovanovic.

 9             MR. BOURGON:  And I'd like to have on e-court, please, document

10     7D442, and I'd like to have English page 4.  I do not have the page in

11     B/C/S, but the ERN number is 4288 at the top of the page.

12        Q.   A document will appear in front of you, Mr. Jovanovic.

13             MR. BOURGON:  If we can have maybe the first page to begin with,

14     so that the witness can see what the document is.

15        Q.   Do you see this document, the first page, Mr. Jovanovic?

16        A.   Yes, I can see it.

17        Q.   Are you familiar with this document?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. BOURGON:  If we can move to the page now which has the

20     paragraph 6 on it.  The ERN page in English is page 4 and the ERN page

21     4288, paragraph 6.

22        Q.   Do you see paragraph 6, Mr. Jovanovic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I will read for you the last three lines of paragraph 6, and then

25     I will ask you a question:  "The duty operations officer is subordinated

Page 22471

 1     to the brigade commander.  The brigade commander can order the

 2     establishment of a detached duty operations officer."

 3             My question is the following:  What is mentioned here, the duty

 4     operations officer is subordinated to the brigade commander, does that

 5     match your recollection as to how things worked in July 1995 in the

 6     Zvornik Brigade?

 7        A.   The duty operations officer is subordinated to the brigade

 8     commander, indeed.  However, when the brigade commander is absent, then

 9     he is subordinated to the deputy commander or the person standing in for

10     the commander, which would be the Chief of Staff.  In other words, the

11     duty operations officer is, indeed, subordinated to the brigade

12     commander.  But when the brigade commander is absent, then the brigade is

13     commanded by the Chief of Staff; hence, the duty operations officer is

14     subordinated to the deputy commander or the Chief of Staff who is in

15     command.

16        Q.   And I'd like now to -- I refer now to the practice, the way

17     things actually worked in July of 1995.  How much could the duty officer

18     do without referring to either the Chief of Staff or the brigade

19     commander?

20        A.   The duty officer is a person who was sitting in the duty

21     officer's office and received reports from the terrain, from the

22     different units of the brigade.  After having received a certain number

23     of reports, he would compile his operations report that would be sent to

24     the corps command.  If there was an urgent matter to be dealt with,

25     either from the unit or from the corps command, and if they could not get

Page 22472

 1     in touch with the commander, the duty operations officer is duty-bound to

 2     inform the commander about everything that happened in the brigade

 3     command.

 4             His main duty was to collect information and reports, and then to

 5     compile the information from all these reports and convey that message,

 6     the compiled report, to the corps command.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  That's very useful.  My next question is:  Can the

 8     duty officer, if the Chief of Staff or the brigade commander are

 9     available, can he deploy forces on his own initiative without referring

10     the matter to the brigade commander or the Chief of Staff?

11        A.   In no case could the duty operations officer deploy troops.  I

12     apologise.  When I said that, I meant independently.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I move to a different topic, and that was your job in

14     1995, and it was referred to that you were the head of the staff office.

15     I'd like to know if you are familiar with the procedure when visitors

16     would come to the brigade command?  What would be the procedure?

17        A.   Well, the procedure was like in all barracks.  When a person

18     heads for the command of the brigade, he calls first at the gate to the

19     duty officer; he has to say who he's going to see; the duty policeman has

20     to communicate it; and when approval is given, the duty policeman escorts

21     the visitor to the person receiving him.  If it's a military visitor and

22     the policeman knows him, then he lets the military visitor come in

23     without checking his ID because he knows him personally.  That's the

24     procedure, I believe, valid in all armies.

25        Q.   And can you confirm that there was 24 hours a day, seven days a

Page 22473

 1     week, a military policeman on duty at the gate of the Zvornik Brigade?

 2        A.   Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week.

 3        Q.   And the first thing that would happen when a car would come in

 4     would be for the military policeman on duty to lift the barrier; would

 5     that be correct?

 6        A.   Well, he had to lift the barrier; otherwise, the vehicle couldn't

 7     come in.

 8        Q.   And are you familiar with the fact that there was a field phone

 9     or a communications line between the post of the duty military policeman

10     and the command?

11        A.   Well, the telephone existed in that hut at the gate, and there

12     are telephone sets in each office.  And the policeman on duty at the gate

13     would inform the command who is coming in, and when.

14        Q.   I now move to a different topic, which is the time that you

15     joined the Zvornik Brigade back in 1992.  Can you tell us what your

16     position was then, when you joined in 1992 for the first time?

17        A.   The first position I got in the Zvornik Brigade was commander of

18     the 4th Battalion.

19        Q.   I apologise.  My question wasn't precise enough.  I'm referring

20     to the period of 1992.  Were you involved then in the events that took

21     place in Zvornik; and if so, in what capacity?

22        A.   I don't know which events you mean.  I joined the armed forces at

23     the time of the Yugoslav People's Army, on the 22nd March 1992; and I was

24     there until the 9th of May, when the army of Yugoslavia left the

25     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  As for the Zvornik Brigade, I

Page 22474

 1     joined it and became commander of the 4th Battalion.

 2        Q.   And what was your position in 1992, the first position that you

 3     had, March 1992?

 4        A.   In March 1992, after a unit came to Zvornik of a tank brigade

 5     from Jastrebarsko, I was mobilised; and I was in a battalion commanded by

 6     Dragan Obrenovic, but as an infantry officer.  My duty was to rally

 7     together infantrymen to form an infantry unit that would serve as an

 8     accompanying unit for that tank battalion.

 9        Q.   So I take it that your commander at the time was Dragan

10     Obrenovic; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And is that the same Dragan Obrenovic who later became Chief of

13     Staff of the Zvornik Brigade?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   At that time, did you know anybody by the name of Ratko Vidovic?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And can you tell us who is Ratko Vidovic?

18        A.   Ratko Vidovic was a chief at the Ministry of the Interior in

19     Zvornik.

20        Q.   And to the best of your recollection, your commander at the time,

21     Dragan Obrenovic, did he have any professional relationship with Ratko

22     Vidovic?

23        A.   Well, he had to have had a professional relationship because the

24     command of that battalion was based in Mali Zvornik.

25        Q.   And do you know anybody by the name of Pavlovic?

Page 22475

 1        A.   I know who the man is, but I didn't have much contact with him.

 2        Q.   And did your commander at the time, Dragan Obrenovic, have any

 3     contact with Pavlovic, Marko Pavlovic?

 4        A.   Well, since Dragan Obrenovic was the commander at the time, he

 5     was the one who went to various meetings with civilian authorities, and

 6     he probably had contacts with Marko Pavlovic, too.  But I'm aware of only

 7     one meeting that was also my first meeting with Marko Pavlovic.  That's

 8     when we were in Kozluk, Dragan Obrenovic and I, and Marko Pavlovic was

 9     there, too.

10        Q.   And can you recall for us what happened at that meeting?

11        A.   Well, it was not an official meeting.  It was an encounter with

12     Marko Pavlovic, where Dragan Obrenovic and I were silent observers, while

13     Marko Pavlovic was addressing the population of Kozluk with Marko -- with

14     Mr. Sepak [as interpreted].

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the last name?

16             MR. BOURGON:

17        Q.   Can you repeat the last name, Mr. Jovanovic?

18        A.   Sepak.  It's a village just below Kozluk.

19        Q.   Two more questions and I'm done.  First, regarding Marko

20     Pavlovic, are you aware that he now stands accused in Belgrade for events

21     which took place in 1992?

22        A.   I know that.  I even testified there.

23        Q.   And are you -- can you help us with who was the commander of

24     Dragan Obrenovic in 1992?

25        A.   Colonel Tacic.

Page 22476

 1        Q.   And my last question is:  You mentioned the name Ratko Vidovic,

 2     and I'd like to know if Ratko Vidovic is someone that you would see

 3     around in 1995 in Zvornik?

 4        A.   Well, what can I tell you?  I used to see him whenever he was in

 5     Zvornik; that is, only the Drina River between Zvornik and Mali Zvornik.

 6     If he visited the barracks, I would see him.  If he just visited the

 7     police in Zvornik, I didn't see him.  I would only see him when he came

 8     to the barracks in Karakaj.

 9        Q.   And to the best of your recollection, looking at the 1995 as a

10     whole, did Ratko Vidovic visit the barracks often?

11        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think it was often, but I can't be

12     sure.  It depends what you call "often."  Every day, every month, I

13     really wouldn't be able to say.  But I did see him around in the barracks

14     sometimes.

15        Q.   One last question that has just been brought to my attention.

16     You mentioned that you testified in the proceedings of Marko Pavlovic.

17     Can you share with us who you testified for and who called you to testify

18     in Belgrade?

19        A.   Well, first of all, concerning the events of 1992, I have to go

20     back a little.  It was first the investigators of the OTP who called me

21     in Zvornik, and I gave a statement to a lady called Rita.  And based on

22     that statement, when the case was transferred to the Belgrade court, that

23     same lady called me to ask if I would agree to testify in Belgrade.  Now,

24     to tell you the truth, I don't think it was the Defence that called me.

25     It was the Prosecution, if I remember well.  And when I went to Belgrade

Page 22477

 1     I first went to give a statement before an investigating judge, and then

 2     I testified at the trial itself.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.

 4             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, before I end, I would just like to

 5     do a correction.  At page 43, line 9, I'm informed that there was a

 6     mistake with the date, the date that would appear on the transcript.  The

 7     correct date should be 19th of May.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.  That will be

 9     taken care of.  Thank you.

10             MR. BOURGON:  I have no further questions.

11             Thank you very much, Mr. Jovanovic.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic?

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have no questions for

14     this witness.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Lazarevic?

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just a couple of

18     questions.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, go ahead, please.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic; and together with my colleagues,

24     I appear for Mr. Borovcanin here.  We had no prior occasion to meet, and

25     that's why I'm introducing myself, formally also for the record.  I have

Page 22478

 1     just a few questions.

 2             Yesterday, and earlier today, you were asked in

 3     examination-in-chief and in cross-examination about taking that unit of

 4     military -- that unit of police, on the 13th, to Maricici on the orders

 5     of Dragan Obrenovic.

 6             My question is:  From where did you take this unit from Doboj?

 7     Where was it when you took them?

 8        A.   If I remember correctly, at the barracks in Standard.

 9        Q.   So that police unit arrived up to the Standard building; and from

10     there, you took them to Maricici?

11        A.   Correct, I think.

12        Q.   Fine.  And when you brought that unit to Maricici, you said your

13     assignment was to join them to the unit that was already there, to make

14     sure that they are joined?

15        A.   Well, not exactly.  They could not be joined because the army was

16     already at Snagovo.  But this segment from Maricici to Liplje, that's not

17     where the joining was done.  They were just supposed to secure that area;

18     not the upper boundary towards Liplje, but towards Maricici, from that

19     part of the road where you could reach and down towards Snagovo, 50 or

20     100 metres, and another 50 metres to the left.

21        Q.   You were there when they took control of that part of the

22     terrain?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

Page 22479

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

 2             Madam Fauveau?

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Krgovic?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  Nothing, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa is finished already.

 8             So, Mr. Thayer?

 9             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:

11        Q.   Good morning, sir.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   My name is Nelson Thayer.  We have not met.  I'll be asking you

14     some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.  Let me just pick up on a

15     few issues that we left off on.

16             With respect to the Belgrade trial, sir, concerning Mr. Pavlovic,

17     you indicated that you had been interviewed previously by the OTP, I

18     think by somebody named Rita; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And when she interviewed you then, she didn't ask you any

21     questions about 1995 or anything related to Srebrenica and the events

22     following Srebrenica, did she?

23        A.   Not really.  But there was a document mentioning both my name and

24     Maric's name, and it was about year 1995, and she said, "I'm not

25     interested in that.  I only want to know about 1992."

Page 22480

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, when you say you first went to Maricici, how many

 2     troops, approximately, did you bring with you on that occasion?

 3        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know the number.  I just know

 4     there was one unit of that civilian police, but I didn't know their exact

 5     strength.  It was not reported to me.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, just based on the group that you saw, sir, can you

 7     provide some kind of estimate?  I mean, was it in the range of 50, in the

 8     range of 100, more than 100?  Just approximately.

 9        A.   Well, roughly between 50 and 100 men, but I'm not sure even about

10     that.

11        Q.   Okay.  When you say you returned to Maricici the next day and

12     headed towards Snagovo, on that occasion, sir, were you bringing with you

13     any reinforcement, any new forces, on that occasion?

14        A.   On that occasion, I took one number of the soldiers from the

15     brigade who were supposed to link up the civilian police with the forces

16     in Snagovo to go ahead and search the terrain.

17        Q.   And when you say "brigade," sir, are you referring to Zvornik

18     Brigade soldiers?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And can you estimate approximately how many you say you brought

21     with you that second time when you went towards Maricici?

22        A.   Around 30.

23        Q.   And on that occasion, do you recall whether there were soldiers

24     from any other units; or to the best of your recollection, was it just

25     Zvornik Brigade soldiers that were with you?

Page 22481

 1        A.   They were only from the Zvornik Brigade.

 2        Q.   Now, sir, you testified earlier today that the only date you can

 3     really remember concretely is the 16th of July because you tie that to

 4     the opening of the corridor.  Did I get that correctly?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And are you aware, sir, that the corridor was still open the next

 7     day, the 17th, as well?

 8        A.   I'm telling you I know it was opened on the 16th, and that date

 9     helps me remember earlier dates.  And after that, whether it was opened

10     the next day, the 17th, I couldn't tell you because I really don't know.

11     I suppose it was.  But those forces continued to pass through because it

12     would have taken more than 15 minutes or an hour.

13        Q.   All right.  You testified that Obrenovic gave you the order to

14     return to Standard from Maricici by radio; is that correct?

15        A.   On the 14th, yes.

16        Q.   And all of your contacts with Commander Pandurevic during this

17     period of time were also by radio; is that correct?

18        A.   Well, our first -- my first contact with Commander Pandurevic was

19     on the 16th by radio.

20        Q.   And to your recollection, did you have any other contacts with

21     Commander Pandurevic while you were in the field in Orahovac before you

22     returned to Standard?

23        A.   Well, my only contact with Commander Pandurevic was when he told

24     me to secure the road from Orahovac to Crni Vrh, and when he said he

25     would send me 60 men from the Bratunac Brigade, and when he also said

Page 22482

 1     that any prisoner that we might take must stay at any cost.  That was the

 2     only contact.  And then later, I was ordered to go back to the command,

 3     but it was not he who called me to say that; although, it was his order.

 4        Q.   Now, you just testified about being interviewed by a lawyer

 5     and -- an American lawyer and possibly also a Serb lawyer, who were

 6     representing Mr. Obrenovic while he was actively preparing his Defence.

 7     I want to ask you some questions about that interview.

 8             MR. THAYER:  And if we could have 65 ter 3435 on the screen,

 9     please, and we don't have a B/C/S translation of this document.

10        Q.   I'm just going to ask you a couple of brief questions based on

11     the English, which we'll have up shortly.

12             MR. THAYER:  Just scroll down a little bit.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

14             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like to address the

15     Court if the witness could remove his earphones with respect to this

16     document before we proceed.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's see.  Mr. Jovanovic, do you

18     understand English?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Yes.  Could you remove your headphones,

21     please?

22             Mr. Thayer, if anyone of you prefers to have this debate in the

23     complete absence of the witness, I would go for that.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             MR. THAYER:  I'm comfortable with the witness here,

Page 22483

 1     Mr. President.  I don't know how long it's going to take.  If it's going

 2     to take a while, then maybe the witness could use a break.  That would be

 3     my only suggestion, but I can't tell.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I haven't got the gift that you were hoping for.

 5             Mr. Bourgon?

 6             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I don't think it will be

 7     very long.  I would just like to ask my colleague, because before he uses

 8     this document with the witness, this is a double, if not triple, hearsay

 9     document that was obtained at a date, where it's absolutely unreliable in

10     terms of information which can be used with this witness.  And I would

11     just like my colleague to establish the foundation of this document and

12     to explain to the Court where it comes from, in terms of the dates,

13     before it can be used with the witness.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  What do you have to say to that?

15             MR. THAYER:  A couple of things, Mr. President.  First, we've

16     seen my friend himself use numerous documents and anonymous sources in

17     the cross-examination of witnesses, without providing any documentation

18     whatsoever relying purely on his memory and mental notes that seem to be

19     before him.  But in this case, what we have done is we have provided the

20     Defence with an information note, an information report, of a

21     conversation between an investigator from the team and the Serb lawyer to

22     whom the witness referred in his prior -- in his earlier testimony during

23     those interviews.  And this lawyer took notes which he read to our

24     investigator over the phone.

25             We came up with this idea because in the Popovic team's proofing

Page 22484

 1     notes, they indicated that the witness told them that he had been

 2     interviewed by the Obrenovic Defence team; and we then, based on that,

 3     reached out to the lawyers and tried to get an account of what was

 4     discussed during the interview between those lawyers and the witness.  We

 5     had no idea that he had actually been interviewed by the lawyers for

 6     Mr. Obrenovic.  And we generated this information report and duly

 7     disclosed it to the Defence.  They have referred to it, although they

 8     didn't show it or explicitly refer to sections, but they have referred to

 9     it themselves during the examination.

10             So I see absolutely no basis for this objection.  I think we are

11     fully complying with all the practice requirements of the Tribunal, and

12     certainly more than my friend has himself.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Bourgon, briefly, please.

14             MR. BOURGON:  Briefly, Mr. President, I will not comments on the

15     last part of his statement, which I, of course, fully disagree with.

16     This is simply to say that the lawyer referred to in this conversation is

17     a lawyer -- I think we should go into private session, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22485

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Sir, we left off discussing the interview that you had with the

Page 22486

 1     lawyers for Mr. Obrenovic.  I just wanted to ask you a couple of

 2     questions about what you recall saying during that interview.

 3             Do you remember telling the lawyers that, with respect to the

 4     Srebrenica operation, that you couldn't tell the precise date when events

 5     happened?

 6        A.   As for Srebrenica, itself, I really wouldn't be able to tell you

 7     the date when things happened in Srebrenica.  When it comes to Zvornik,

 8     the Zvornik Brigade, and the part around Crni Vrh, Baljkovica, and

 9     Snagovo, when I place things around the 16th of July, then I know when

10     things happened.  As for Srebrenica, I wouldn't be able to give you the

11     exact date.

12        Q.   Now, do you recall telling the lawyers with respect to the

13     civilian police unit that went to Maricici, do you remember telling the

14     lawyers that you don't remember the exact date that you were asked to go

15     there?

16        A.   To be honest, when it comes to the details of the conversation

17     with the American lawyer who represented Dragan Obrenovic, I really can't

18     say that I told him everything that I provided him with all the dates --

19     details.  It had been quite some time ago before that conversation.  The

20     only thing I can remember is that I shared some personal things with this

21     American lawyer, told him how I went to school, what school I went to,

22     and things like that.

23        Q.   Okay.  Well, do you remember telling the lawyers that you don't

24     know who it was that asked you to go?

25        A.   As far as I know, I didn't say that, because I know exactly who

Page 22487

 1     told me to go there.

 2        Q.   Do you remember telling the lawyers that the next day, when you

 3     were called back to Standard, that you didn't know who gave you that

 4     instruction to return to Standard?

 5        A.   The signalsman of the police told me that I had been requested to

 6     return to the Standard, to the command.  I didn't know who it was who

 7     issued that instruction.  I supposed it was the commander, i.e., the

 8     Chief of Staff who was standing in for him at the time.  Now, who it was

 9     who actually picked up the phone over there, I don't know.  It could have

10     been the duty operations officer who did it on the instruction of the

11     Chief of Staff.

12             I only know that when I returned to the Standard, I found him

13     there, and he told me to go to it scour the terrain.  It was not Dragan

14     Obrenovic personally who spoke to me and instructed me to return, but

15     what I'm saying is that the actual order could not have been issued by

16     anybody else but him.  It could have been conveyed by somebody else, by

17     the duty operations officer, but it could only have come from him.

18        Q.   So, then, it would be accurate to say that, as the information we

19     have from the lawyers, that back then you told them that you didn't know

20     who gave you that order to return; is that correct, sir?

21        A.   The order was conveyed to me to return to the barracks, and it is

22     well known who it was who could issue the order to either the duty

23     operations officer or somebody else.  It could only have been the

24     commander or the Chief of Staff.  Since the commander was not there at

25     the time, it was the Chief of Staff who asked one of the officers to

Page 22488

 1     convey the message to me to return to the barracks.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Just --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

 4             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like to object to

 5     the last question.  I waited for the answer, to be legitimate with my

 6     colleague, but my colleague did ask this question already, on lines page

 7     55 lines 21 and 22:  "Well, do you remember telling the lawyers that you

 8     don't know who it was that asked to you go?"

 9             The witness answered the question:  "As far as I know, I did not

10     say that, because I know exactly who told me to go there."

11             So my colleague asked the question once again; I let the witness

12     answer.  I think that should be the end of the matter, Mr. President.

13             Thank you.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Just one more question, sir, with respect to this interview you

17     had:  Do you remember telling those lawyers that when you were told to go

18     back to the Maricici and Snagovo area with 60 to 70 men, that you don't

19     know or that you didn't know when you talked to the lawyers who gave you

20     that order?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Fauveau?

22             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to object to

23     this because as my colleague has said a while ago, we do not have the

24     statement of the witness to these lawyers.  We don't even have the

25     statement of the lawyers.  We have the statement made on the basis of an

Page 22489

 1     interview with a lawyer and who would have said this.  So I don't think

 2     the Prosecutor can ask this question in this form, supposing the witness

 3     has, indeed, said that.  We don't know if he said really that.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment to that, Mr. Thayer?

 5             MR. THAYER:  Just extremely briefly.  A, that's been dealt with,

 6     with respect to Mr. Bourgon's objection; and, B, it's cross-examination.

 7             MR. BOURGON:  And it's asked and answered.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  We cannot entertain the objection, Madam Fauveau.

10     We are in cross-examination, and you also have to keep in mind that it

11     was not even necessary for the Prosecution to create this document and

12     disclose it or use it.  He could have put the questions on the basis of

13     his knowledge, based on the information obtained from this lawyer, and

14     all this wouldn't have arisen.

15             So, please, go ahead.

16             MR. THAYER:  No good deed goes unpunished, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  But at the end of the day, that's what it amounts

18     to.

19             MR. THAYER:

20        Q.   Sir, let me just ask the question again:  With respect to the

21     interview you had, do you recall telling the lawyers for Mr. Obrenovic

22     that when you were told to go back to the Maricici-Snagovo area with 60

23     to 70 men, that you didn't know who gave you that order?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon?

25             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 22490

 1             Before the witness answers the question, I'd like to know from

 2     the Prosecution whether, by obtaining this information from the lawyer of

 3     Dragan Obrenovic, they also did obtain a waiver that he was, in fact,

 4     able to give such information to the Prosecution without telling or

 5     communicating with his client.

 6             Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

 8             Yes, Mr. Thayer?

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, that is at this point pure

10     obstruction.  It's a silly objection that has absolutely nothing to do

11     with this witness's ability to answer the question that was put to him.

12     I'll be pleased to deal with that outside the presence of the witness

13     when we have some free time.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  That is a matter that can be raised in relation to

15     other matters that haven't got a place in these proceedings.

16             Let's proceed, please.

17             MR. THAYER:

18        Q.   Sir, I'll ask you the question for a third time:  Do you recall,

19     when you say you were ordered back to the Maricici-Snagovo area with 60

20     to 70 men, telling the lawyers for Mr. Obrenovic that you didn't know who

21     gave you that order?

22        A.   The question is clear, but what is not clear is the

23     Maricici-Snagovo bit, but rather from the barracks to Snagovo.  Maricici

24     is further than the brigade command which was in the barracks in Karakaj.

25     This is where I received the order to go to Maricici and to link up the

Page 22491

 1     line from the police to our forces in Snagovo; and from there, we were

 2     supposed to embark on the scouring mission.  And I received that order in

 3     the barracks.

 4        Q.   Let me try one more time, sir.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  You said everything except what you were asked to

 6     give as an information.  Please pay careful attention to the question

 7     that Mr. Thayer is going to put to you and try to answer it with a yes or

 8     no, please.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Sir, when you were interviewed by the lawyers for Mr. Obrenovic,

11     and you spoke to them about being sent back to the area of Maricici and

12     Snagovo with 60 to 70 men, do you recall telling those lawyers that you

13     didn't know who gave you that order?

14        A.   First of all, I could have said it, but I don't remember having

15     stated that before those lawyers.  I really don't remember that.  But I

16     know for sure that the order was issued to me by Dragan Obrenovic, who

17     sent me on this scouring mission, because he was in charge of that

18     operation.

19        Q.   Let's turn to a slightly different topic, sir.

20             You've testified about the dates on which you recall these events

21     happening, and my friends have referred to your state court testimony in

22     the Trbic case, and they have suggested that maybe you got your dates

23     mixed up when you testified there, in fact, a month ago to the day,

24     19 May.  I want to look at some testimony that you gave.

25             MR. THAYER:  And if we could have 65 ter 3434 on the screen,

Page 22492

 1     please.  We only have an English transcript.  We only found out that

 2     there was this prior testimony just before the weekend, and were able to

 3     crank out the English transcript by the end of the weekend, and that was

 4     the best we could do.

 5             If we could have page 9, please.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, you were asked a question by the lawyer for Mr. Trbic;

 7     and just so it's clear, you were called as a Defence witness, a witness

 8     for Mr. Trbic in that trial; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you were asked the question:  "Are you able to recall what

11     happened two or three days before your arrival to Orahovac; namely, on

12     16th, when you came there?"

13             And your answer was:  "Well, of course I can.  I received order,

14     I believe on 14th, of the then-chief of brigade, Dragan Obrenovic, to

15     escort the team or the group of either civil or military police officers

16     from Doboj, I believe, to Maricici.  So I escorted this group to

17     Maricici; I stayed overnight in Maricici; and the next day, a vehicle

18     came to pick me up.  I believe this was on the 15th.  Then I set off to

19     get over the group of soldiers through Maricici to Snagovo in order to

20     search the terrain."

21             Further on, you say:  "We stayed overnight in one building near

22     the new school in Snagovo; and after that night, I received the order

23     from Dragan Obrenovic to come down to Orahovac together with a group of

24     people."

25             And you continue and you say:  "We stayed overnight at Orahovac,

Page 22493

 1     and then I got the order to secure the road that I previously mentioned

 2     along with those 60 men who arrived."

 3             Now, I want to go to page 14, and then I'll ask you a couple of

 4     follow-up questions.

 5             At the top of the page, the question is:  "Okay.  So the 60 men

 6     from Bratunac, they arrived on the night of the 14th; is that right?"

 7             And your answer is:  "I don't know when they arrived in Zvornik.

 8     I really don't know.  But on 14th, evening, people from Doboj arrived and

 9     I deployed them to Maricici."

10             And then if we look down at the bottom of this page, you very

11     clearly say:  "I know that the commander of those police officers was

12     captured on 15th there at Maricici because there were some combats."

13             Now, sir, it's --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Finish your question, and then I'll hear Mr. Sarapa

15     after.

16             MR. THAYER:

17        Q.   Sir, it's clear, is it not, from the testimony you gave in the

18     Trbic case that your recollection of these events is mistaken by an

19     entire day?  Is that correct?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, before you answer that question.

21             Yes, Mr. Sarapa?

22             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes.  At the beginning, the

23     statement of my learned friend started with quoting the lawyer:

24             [In English] "What happened was three days before your arrival in

25     Orahovac; namely, on the 16th, when you came there."

Page 22494

 1             [Interpretation] Before the witness answers the question, could

 2     he be read out from line 13 to line 20, the latter being the beginning of

 3     the Prosecutor's quote?

 4             And this reads as follows:  [In English] "In Orahovac.

 5             "And when did you came there on that day.

 6             "Well, I would 15th or rather 16th, 16th, approximately."

 7             So, approximately.

 8             MR. THAYER:  That's fine if he wants to introduce that ambiguity.

 9     I mean, I don't have any problem with that being read to the witness.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I have read both pages while they were on the

11     screen and they still are.  So I don't think there is any difficulty for

12     the witness to answer the question.

13             And I think what you have raised, Mr. Sarapa, is already answered

14     in the text of these two pages.

15             Mr. Jovanovic, if you could give us your answer, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer, and the answer would

17     be this:  On the 16th, I did not arrive in Orahovac.  On the 14th, I was

18     on the scouring mission.  On the 15th, in the morning, I was at Snagovo.

19     And on the 15th, I set off towards Orahovac around 11.00, 12.00, or

20     1.00 p.m.  That's when I arrived in Orahovac, and I spent one night in

21     Orahovac.

22             Sixty soldiers came from Bratunac on the 16th.  And on the 16th,

23     we were about to provide security for the road.  They refused to obey

24     that order, and they were returned on the 16th.  They could not have been

25     there on the 15th but only on the 16th.  And as for myself I could only

Page 22495

 1     be there on the 15th in the evening, after which I spent the night in

 2     Orahovac.

 3             As for the statement, it is possible that I stated the way it has

 4     been recorded.  But when I read this, I can only tell you that I know

 5     exactly how many nights I spent in the field, between the 13th and the

 6     14th, between the 14th and the 15th, and between the 15th and the 16th.

 7     And reading this transcript, one might conclude that I spent only two

 8     nights in the field, which is not correct.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Let me refocus you away from my friend's question about the 16th,

11     sir, on the testimony that we just heard that you gave about the events

12     in question, and their dates.

13             First, if we look at page 11, you stated there, in answer to the

14     question:  "Can you just remind the Court how you received this order

15     deploying you to the field?  Did Obrenovic tell you personally, meaning

16     face to face?"

17             And your answer was:  "Yes, face to face."

18             "What time was this?

19             "I believe this happened in the early evening, but I wouldn't be

20     able to tell you the exact hours.

21             And then later on, just a few lines down, the question is:  "So,

22     all day on 14th up until the evening, you were in the command; isn't that

23     right?"

24             And your answer was:  "Yes."

25             So, again, my question to you, sir, is:  Based on your testimony

Page 22496

 1     in the state court, where you clearly testified that this first order you

 2     say you got from Mr. Obrenovic to deploy the troops from Doboj to the

 3     Maricici area happened on the night of the 14th, and that is a full day

 4     off from what you've testified here today.

 5             You are mistaken by an entire day, are you not?

 6        A.   It is possible that I was off by a whole day, but I am claiming

 7     this now and I will continue claiming it.  On the 16th, when the corridor

 8     was opened, I woke up in Orahovac where I had arrived on the previous

 9     day, which was the 15th.  I spent the night between the 14th and 15th at

10     Snagovo.  On the 14th, we went scouring; and on the 13th, I took the

11     police members to Maricici.

12             I can reconstruct all that in view of the date when the corridor

13     was opened and when I received the order from Vinko Pandurevic to secure

14     the road between Orahovac and Crni Vrh.  I received that order in the

15     morning, and I could not get to Orahovac in the morning, receive the

16     order, and have people arrive there.  What I'm saying now is that I must

17     have misspoke in my previous statement.

18             What I am telling you now is certainly true and correct, and

19     there is no mistake there.

20        Q.   And just before we break, and that all hangs on your recollection

21     of this date of the 16; is that correct, sir?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let him answer the question, Mr. Bourgon, please.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, in all fairness to the witness, I

24     used a date and an intercept which is a Prosecution exhibit; and before

25     he puts a question like this to the witness, he should at least take into

Page 22497

 1     consideration --

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, stop, stop.  Let him answer the question.  I

 3     anticipated what you were going to say.

 4             Mr. Jovanovic, please answer the question that Mr. Thayer put to

 5     you.

 6             MR. THAYER:

 7        Q.   Do you recall the question, sir?

 8        A.   The question was about the 16th and whether I am basing my

 9     testimony on the 16th and reconstructing the events backwards.

10        Q.   Correct, sir.

11        A.   Was that the question?

12        Q.   That's exactly the question, sir.  Is that what you're doing?

13        A.   Now I did not understand what you said.

14        Q.   The question is:  Is that what you're doing, basing your

15     recollection, your testimony, as to these dates by working backward from

16     one date?

17        A.   Yes.  I'm starting with that one date, and I am working things

18     out backwards in order to reconstruct what was happening to me and what I

19     was doing on the previous days.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop there.  And we have a break of 25 minutes.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Good afternoon again, sir.

Page 22498

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Now, let's put dates aside for the moment.

 3             On the first night you say you went to the Maricici area to

 4     escort some police forces, where were those police forces from, to the

 5     best of your recollection?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, they were from Doboj.

 7        Q.   And how do you know they were from Doboj, sir?

 8        A.   I had been informed about that.  They never identified themselves

 9     to me, but that's what I'd been told.

10        Q.   And when were you told this information, sir, that these forces

11     were from Doboj?

12        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you when exactly.  Maybe it was in the

13     barracks; or maybe in Maricici, maybe from them.  But I wouldn't know.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. THAYER:  Well, let's look at 65 ter 3429, please.

16        Q.   And, sir, I don't think that there is a translation in your

17     language for this.  There might be.  Okay.  Good.

18             MR. THAYER:  Oh, yes, I apologise.  We do have it.  In fact, I

19     have it.

20        Q.   Sir, I want to turn your attention to page 2 of both the English

21     and the B/C/S.  Do you see about in the middle of the page, it says --

22             MR. THAYER:  I'm being told that there is no English.  Is that

23     the case?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's what I was going to tell you.  You told the

25     witness that it's not available in his language.  It's not available in

Page 22499

 1     ours, but --

 2             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Well, I have a hard copy in English that I

 3     can place on the ELMO.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  That would make our life easier.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   And, again, this is a copy of the witness statement that was

 7     taken by the Popovic team and signed by yourself back in October of 2007.

 8             Now, do you see the portion, sir, where it says:  "At around 2000

 9     hours on 13 July 1995," do you see that section, "Dragan Obrenovic

10     assigned me the task of going with a group of soldiers the size of one

11     company in the direction of Maricici village."

12             Do you see where I'm turning your attention to, sir?  If we count

13     down, it's the 7th paragraph.

14        A.   Yes.  I can see that, yes.

15        Q.   You see where it says:  "The soldiers who accompanied me were not

16     from Zvornik but from Bijeljina or Prijedor.  I do not recall precisely."

17     Do you recall what made you recall at that time in your interview that

18     these troops may have been from Bijeljina?

19        A.   What it was it may have been the fact that I didn't know them at

20     all.  If they had been soldiers or policemen from Zvornik, they would

21     have known where Maricici was, so I would not have had to take them.

22     Since they were from outside, I had to take them; and, later on, I

23     learned that they were from Doboj.  In this statement that I provided to

24     the gentlemen, it is possible, not only is it possible but I did state it

25     as it has been recorded, but I said that I wasn't sure.  I only know that

Page 22500

 1     they were not from Zvornik.

 2        Q.   Okay.  But I guess what I'm getting at, sir, is you refer to two

 3     specific places, Bijeljina and Prijedor, and neither of those locations

 4     is particularly close to Doboj.  So is it possible that one of the

 5     soldiers with whom you had contact during this period of time was, in

 6     fact, a police officer from Bijeljina or from Prijedor, and that's why

 7     you told the Popovic Defence team that on that occasion last fall?

 8        A.   The only person I spoke to was their commander.  I did not have

 9     any exchanges with the other members of the police.  When we arrived at

10     Maricici, they were deployed, not the way they were supposed to be

11     deployed because it was night.  They were just billeted in some of the

12     facilities, and only the following morning they kind of deployed

13     themselves to their positions.

14             It is possible that somebody was from there, but what I'm saying

15     is that my information is that they were from Doboj, that they were

16     police officers from Doboj.  Whether there were people hailing from other

17     areas or other places, I wouldn't know.

18        Q.   Okay, sir.  I think you almost answered my question.  Let me just

19     try one more time.

20             Is it possible that one of the police officers with whom you had

21     contact told you that he was, in fact, from Bijeljina or Prijedor, and

22     that's why you recalled that in your interview with the Popovic team last

23     fall?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I hate to interrupt my colleague, but I think

Page 22501

 1     this is exactly the same question that it was to the previous one, and I

 2     believe the answer was very clear.  I don't really feel like saying this

 3     in front of the witness, but he said that he spoke only with one person.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think we can move to your next question, Mr.

 5      Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  May we have 65 ter 3442, please.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, isn't it the case that you can't even say that it's

 8     true that the troops you say you were with were, in fact, from Doboj?

 9        A.   Well, I repeat:  I was informed that they were from Doboj, but I

10     can't be a hundred per cent sure of that.  I did not inspect any of their

11     IDs.  I never checked that.  My only duty was to take them there.

12        Q.   All right, sir.  I won't even ask you any questions about that

13     document.

14             Sir, have you followed the two prior Srebrenica trials at all?

15        A.   I don't know what you mean.  When you ask me if I "followed," are

16     you asking me whether I listened to the transmissions or whether I

17     followed on TV?  I watched it maybe a couple of times because not the

18     whole thing was transmitted.  It was just reported about only

19     occasionally.  The only thing that I followed was when I was -- when I

20     appeared as a witness in Sarajevo.  That's when I followed a Srebrenica

21     case.

22        Q.   And you discussed, during the time period that those trials were

23     going on, these grave accusations in the trials and those events with

24     your friends and former colleagues, did you not?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22502

 1        Q.   Okay.  And we'll get back to that in a little while.

 2             Now, sir, I'm just going to tell you directly.  The reason I'm

 3     pressing your recollection about where these police forces were from that

 4     you say you recall escorting is that I want to suggest to you that the

 5     forces you escorted were actually from Bijeljina, just like you initially

 6     thought.

 7             I want to explore that possibility with you.  So keep that in

 8     mind, if you would, when I show you the next couple of documents.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Can we see 3112, please.

10        Q.   Sir, do you see the document on your screen?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   Okay.  What we have here is a report from Dragomir Vasic.  Do you

13     know who he is, sir?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   And who is he, and, more specifically, in 1995, what was his

16     position?

17        A.   I don't know what his position was, but I know that he was a

18     police member.  He was with the police force.

19        Q.   Okay.  And we'll see later on in this document that he was, in

20     fact, the commander of the Zvornik CJB.

21             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could scroll down a little bit, this is a

22     dispatch dated the 14th of July 1995.

23        Q.   And we see here, if we look at paragraph 7, sir, just take a

24     moment.  I know it's kind of hard to read.  You see the reference to one

25     company of the Doboj:  "CJB, PJP, in coordination with Janja SOP, is

Page 22503

 1     blocking enemy forces in the village of Maricici, village of Mehmedovici

 2     area."  You see that, sir?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Now, I think we've all -- everyone here is familiar with what the

 5     PJP forces consisted of.  The "SOP" abbreviation there, sir, do you know

 6     what that stands for?

 7        A.   To be honest, I don't know.  It's a police abbreviation.  That's

 8     something that probably referred to one of their stations or units.

 9        Q.   You're right, sir.  It refers to a Special Police detachment from

10     Janja.  Now, this is dated on the 14th, and this area that's listed here

11     is roughly the area that you say you were in during this period of time;

12     is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. THAYER:  Now, can we see 65 ter 3432, please -- I'm sorry,

15     that's 916.  My apologies.  Wait.  Sorry, that's -- we have a 65 ter

16     number issue here.  Bear with me one moment, please.

17             916, please -- no, 913.

18        Q.   Now, sir, we have another Vasic dispatch.  This is dated the

19     15th of July.

20             And if we go down to paragraph 3, there is now a reference to two

21     PJP companies from Bijeljina, one company from Doboj, and one platoon of

22     the Zvornik company, and that they are directly guarding the town of

23     Zvornik and fighting the enemy along the Zlijebac-Zlatne Vode-Kula

24     Grad-Maricici line.  Now, as of the 14th, we hadn't seen any reference to

25     the Bijeljina police officers in this area, but now we do on the 15th.

Page 22504

 1             Is it possible, sir, that this reference to the Bijeljina

 2     companies is actually the reference to the troops that you escorted in

 3     the night of the 14th and not the 15th -- I mean, not the 13th; and that

 4     you were actually with Bijeljina troops on not Doboj troops when you were

 5     in this area of Maricici?

 6        A.   In the area of Maricici, there was that police force from Doboj.

 7     I'm saying this again.  And what's written here about a company from

 8     Bijeljina and Kula Grad, Kula Grad is to the left of Maricici.  They were

 9     covering that because there were no army troops there.  The area that was

10     not covered by the army troops was covered by the centre of public

11     security, Zvornik, with assistance and coordination of other police

12     because they did not have enough personnel to do it themselves.

13             But the unit at Maricici was from Doboj.

14        Q.   Well, sir, we see right here in the document that there is a

15     reference to Bijeljina troops also being in this area of Maricici.  My

16     question to you is:  Are you excluding the possibility that you were, in

17     fact, escorting Bijeljina troops and not Doboj troops?

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, this is a formal objection.  I

20     mean, we can all see what is in this document, and my learned colleague

21     keeps on repeating Bijeljina, Bijeljina, and the very next sentence says

22     one company Doboj.  So in order to be fair to the witness, let him see

23     what's inside this document.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  The document is in front of the witness in any

25     case.

Page 22505

 1             Yes, Mr. Jovanovic, could you answer the question, please?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the previous document, it

 3     was written that there was one unit from Doboj, the previous document,

 4     when a report was shown from Dragan Vasic of the 14th.  This one is of

 5     the 15th.  I don't know about the report from the 15th because I was at

 6     Snagovo.  And who was at that time at Kula and Maricici, I didn't know

 7     any more.  In the previous document, the report of the 14th, it was

 8     written forces from Doboj; and this one, as far as I can see, is from

 9     the 15th.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   That's exactly my point, sir; and, again, my question was:  Even

12     though, as we've already seen, there is a reference to the Doboj troops

13     on the 14th, there is no reference to the Bijeljina troops in that area

14     in that report from the 14th.

15             So my question to you is:  Having seen the reference to the

16     Bijeljina troops arriving apparently on the 15th, since they are

17     mentioned there on the 15th, do you exclude the possibility that you were

18     escorting Bijeljina troops and not Doboj troops?

19        A.   I exclude that possibility.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's move to a new area, sir.  You were asked some

21     questions about the late Milan Maric.  Do you remember what his position

22     was in July of 1995?

23        A.   As far as I can remember, he was in the operative section of the

24     brigade.  I don't know what exactly he was there, a clerk or something,

25     but he was in the operative section.

Page 22506

 1        Q.   Now, you told us a few minutes ago that during the prior trials,

 2     emanating from the events following the fall of Srebrenica, that you

 3     discussed the trials and the grave accusations that they dealt with, with

 4     friends and former colleagues.

 5             Was Mr. Maric somebody that you remember talking to about the

 6     cases or generally these events, the accusations of what happened after

 7     the fall of Srebrenica?

 8        A.   Well, to tell you frankly, to whom I talked, with Maric or

 9     Bojanovic and all those who were in the brigade and the civilians,

10     civilians who were engaged in the brigade, I did talk about

11     investigations, not trials because there were no trials at that time; and

12     I probably spoke about those investigations to Milan Maric as well while

13     he was alive.

14        Q.   And you just threw out the name of Bojanovic.  Is that the same

15     Ljubo Bojanovic that I think you may have testified about earlier in

16     answers to questions from my learned friend Mr. Zivanovic?

17        A.   Ljubo Bojanovic, who was a major in the brigade, if that's the

18     one, he, too, is dead.

19        Q.   Yes.  And forgive me if you weren't asked any questions by

20     Mr. Zivanovic about the late Mr. Bojanovic, but I'm going to ask you some

21     questions about him.  You threw his name out.  So I'm wondering is he

22     another person with whom you discussed the investigations into the events

23     following the fall of Srebrenica with, just as you did with Mr. Maric?

24        A.   Well, you have to understand one thing.  I remember the two of

25     them, for instance, because we spent a lot of time together, and not only

Page 22507

 1     during the war.  We knew one another even before, so they remained in my

 2     memory.  I did talk to other people as well, but these two are the ones I

 3     can remember at the moment.  If I may say this, I've discussed it also

 4     with my wife.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, Mr. Maric testified in the Blagojevic trial that in the

 6     afternoon of June [sic ]13th, Obrenovic ordered him to go to Snagovo, and

 7     if we --

 8             MR. THAYER:  I see I misspoke.  I meant "July" clearly.  My

 9     apologies.

10             If we could have 65 ter 3138 on e-court, please, and if we could

11     go to pages 11592 to 93, but starting with 11592.

12        Q.   I apologise, sir, it's only in English, so I'm going to read to

13     you some of his testimony.

14             MR. THAYER:  We are putting it on the screen so people can read

15     along and the translators, interpreters, as well.  That's page 51.

16        Q.

17             Now, Mr. Maric testified - and I'm going to quote the transcript,

18     at page 11592, line 10:  "That morning, on the 13th of July, a unit

19     assembled.  I think it was an ad hoc unit.  There were about 25 soldiers

20     from another battalion, about 15 members of the engineering company; then

21     we also had some donors there, 12 to 15; then we had a logistics platoon

22     from our brigade, about 15 to 20 people altogether.  And I think that the

23     Chief of Staff ordered them to go to Snagovo sector in order to protect

24     Serbian villages in that area."

25             And if we look at the bottom of the page, he says that:  "Later

Page 22508

 1     that day, at about 5.00 or 6.00 p.m.," this is continuing on to the next

 2     page, "Obrenovic called him to his office and ordered him to go to

 3     Snagovo to find that ad hoc unit because," and I'm quoting here, "'Jevtic

 4     couldn't really carry out his duties, was unable to organise that.  It

 5     was obvious that that wasn't a combat unit that had not seen combat

 6     before, and that he was experiencing some problems with the unit.'"

 7             That's the end of the quote at line 6 of that page.

 8             Now, my first question to you, sir, is:  Do you recall anything

 9     about this ad hoc unit of mixed forces going to Snagovo on that date, the

10     13th of July?

11        A.   The only thing I know is that on the 14th or the 15th, I got in

12     touch with Maric.  It's only then that I learned Maric was up there.  And

13     what kind of unit it was, I really couldn't tell you.

14        Q.   Now, if we continue a little bit, sir, if we go to page 11596 -

15     we are just waiting for the e-court number - at the bottom, he says:

16             "I met up with Dragan Jevtic in the area of Snagovo on the road.

17     This is where I found them all gathered together in that place.  I saw

18     what the problems were," and this continues to the next page, 11597.

19             "And then I deployed the soldiers in such a way that they could

20     defend themselves most effectively.  The inhabitants of the village were

21     also there.  They were upset, they were afraid.  And that evening, I

22     received information that a unit of the special purpose police from Doboj

23     was to come and join up with us.  It was to be brought there by Ljubo

24     Bojanovic.  So we waited for that unit to arrive."

25             MR. THAYER:  And if we go to the next page, 11598, that's page 57

Page 22509

 1     in e-court.

 2        Q.   There is a question put to Mr. Maric:  "That morning or that

 3     night, between the 13th and the 14th, did the police from Doboj arrive,

 4     and did you link up with them?"

 5             And Mr. Maric answered:  "Ljubo Bojanovic did bring a group.  I

 6     think it was between 200 and 250 special purpose policemen from Doboj.

 7     And he joined up with us just before dawn.  I think it might have been

 8     4.00 a.m. and then we linked up, and this was the area that they -- where

 9     they took up positions."

10             He's asked:  "That morning or that night just before dawn, did

11     you personally meet Ljubo Bojanovic?"

12             Mr. Maric answered:  "Yes, of course.  For them to come along

13     that road from Maricici to avoid any surprises, I took a group of

14     soldiers and went a kilometre, kilometre and a half, ahead to meet them.

15     So I met them personally, and then we brought them back and linked them

16     up with our unit."

17             Sir, my first question is:  Are you aware that Mr. Maric has

18     testified to this series of events and his presence in this area with the

19     Doboj troops in great detail?

20        A.   First of all, I'm not aware that he testified; and, second, that

21     group, those special units of the police, those 20 [as interpreted] men

22     that he says went through Maricici didn't go to Snagovo.  They could have

23     only passed through the main -- through the old road, Zvornik-Snagovo.  I

24     took to Maricici a very small number of men, up to one company strong,

25     max; that is, 40, 50 men, not more.  That large group certainly didn't

Page 22510

 1     pass through Maricici because on the 13th, on the night of the 13th, I

 2     was with those policemen at Maricici.  I can tell you for sure that Ljubo

 3     Bojanovic didn't know that part of the road.  Maybe he knew about it a

 4     little, but he never walked it.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Nikolic?

 6             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is an error in

 7     the transcript, page 77, line 4.  When the witness mentioned a group of

 8     people, the witness said 200 men, 200 to 250 men, not 20.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Do you confirm that, Mr. Jovanovic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said [as interpreted] that there

11     were around 220 men from Doboj, in response to what was read out to me

12     from the document.  I said that such a large number of men could not have

13     gone through Maricici.  However, there is a road, Zvornik-Snagovo; it was

14     a macadam road but usable by vehicles.  From Maricici to Snagovo,

15     however, you can only walk, and I assert that Ljubo Bojanovic with all

16     those men did not go through Maricici.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

18             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I believe, again, we have one problem with the

19     transcript.  From what I heard from the witness, the witness said, "It

20     was read out to me that there were around 220 men," not "I said that

21     there were 220 men."

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's clear because I was looking at the first

23     three lines of that paragraph on page 77, and it's obvious that that is

24     the case.

25             Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Jovanovic.

Page 22511

 1             Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             Now, if we could have 65 ter 3135 on e-court, please, and we will

 4     be going to page 43 of that document.

 5        Q.   Sir, are you aware that Mr. Bojanovic testified in the Blagojevic

 6     case as a Defence witness for Dragan --

 7        A.   I didn't know that.  I really didn't know that, that he testified

 8     here.

 9             MR. THAYER:  And if there is anybody following with a hard copy,

10     it's page 11710 of the transcript; and in e-court, it's page 43.

11        Q.   If we look at page 22 -- I'm sorry, line 22, the question is --

12     actually, line 20, the question is:  "Where did you spend the night of

13     the 14th?"

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, please.  Let's go into private session

15     for a short while, please.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22512

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  And our time is almost up, Mr. Thayer.  We have

 9     only got two minutes left.

10             MR. THAYER:  Your Honour, you know what?  It's probably better

11     just to break for the day, and we will just pick this up tomorrow.  I

12     also note that these documents have been admitted pursuant to 92 quater,

13     just so that's clear on the record, but I will not be referring to

14     anything in private session.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. Jovanovic, we are going to adjourn

16     for today.  We will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  May I just remind

17     you of the advisory that I gave you yesterday not to discuss this with

18     anyone between today and tomorrow.  Okay.

19             Thank you.  Mr. Bourgon.

20             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             For planning purposes --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  The witness can leave the courtroom.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Prosecution had announced one hour, I believe, for

24     cross-examination.  Is it possible to know how much time they will take

25     tomorrow.

Page 22513

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, how much longer, Mr. Thayer?

 2             MR. THAYER:  I think I think I should be able to streamline; but

 3     given some of the cross-examination and some of the, frankly, new issues

 4     that were raised in some of the cross-examination, I'm going to need, I

 5     think, about 45 minutes tomorrow to finish up.  I'll see what I can do to

 6     trim what I've got.  But there are new areas, frankly, that were raised

 7     that we had no notice of in any form or fashion.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  You will update us tomorrow morning, and

 9     then we will died how to do.  But in any case, the next witness needs to

10     be present tomorrow.  Thank you.

11             The sitting is adjourned.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of June,

14                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.