1 Friday, 20 June 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Registrar, if you could kindly call the
7 case, please, and good morning to you.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to everyone in the
10 courtroom. This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin
11 Popovic et al.
12 Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So all the accused are here. From the Defence
14 teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Lazarevic, and
15 Mr. Haynes. Already standing, I see Mr. Thayer; and, of course, there's
16 Mr. McCloskey. The witness is already present.
17 Good morning to you, sir, Mr. Jovanovic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And I welcome you once more. You're still
20 testifying pursuant to the solemn declaration that you made the first day
21 when you started giving evidence.
22 So let's proceed.
23 WITNESS: ZORAN JOVANOVIC [Resumed]
24 [The witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
2 Honours. Good morning, everyone.
3 Mr. President, just to give you an idea of my time estimate, I
4 reduced examination last night, as well to accommodate one new are that
5 was raised. There's one area I'd like to address. I think I should be
6 able to do that in the 45 minutes that I asked for, and I would ask to be
7 granted that indulgence based on the approximate time estimate that I
8 made at the beginning of my examination.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's hear what Mr. Ostojic has to say.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
11 First of all, I would like to know what the new issue is from
12 Mr. Thayer, and just so the Court knows, we've asked the clerk, and they
13 told us that Mr. Thayer has been one hour and 27 minutes on
14 cross-examination, which exceeds it by close to 50 per cent, his
15 estimate, and I don't think that it's fair and reasonable for him to go
16 another 45 minutes. It was our understanding he was going to go 15
17 minutes, and based on what the Court said on Wednesday, I believe, to --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, Mr. Ostojic, because I think this is
19 annoying. This is annoying. I think you should know your limits as a
20 lawyer, and you know what our prerogatives are, and you know that we use
21 our discretion when it is necessary to use it. And when it's necessary
22 to allow counsel to proceed, we allow counsel to proceed. But there is a
23 limit, and let's not start the day like that.
24 Please sit down.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed, Mr. Thayer, and try to contain it
2 as much as you can.
3 MR. THAYER: I will, Mr. President. Thank you.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]
5 Q. Good morning, sir.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. When we left off yesterday, we had reviewed Mr. Maric's testimony
8 in which he recounted going to Snagovo in the early morning hours of
9 14 July to assist Dragan Jevtic, the Engineering Company commander. And
10 we heard his testimony about how he linked up there with Ljubo Bojanovic
11 and the large contingent from Doboj.
12 Where we left off, sir, specifically was with the trial testimony
13 of Mr. Bojanovic in the Blagojevic case, and I believe you stated that
14 you were unaware that he testified as a Defence witness for Dragan Jokic
15 in that case; is that correct? We may have gotten cut off mid-answer.
16 A. It's correct. It's true that I didn't know it.
17 Q. Now, let me go directly to the testimony, which is 65 ter 3135,
18 and we're at page 43 of e-court.
19 If we scroll down to the bottom of the page, Mr. Bojanovic is
20 asked where he spent the night of July 13th, and his answer is:
21 "The night of 13th of July, I slept at the headquarters until
22 2.00 a.m.
23 had to perform."
24 And if we go to the next page, at line 19, Mr. Bojanovic
25 testified that a messenger woke him up and told him that the chief was
1 waiting for him in the duty operations officer room. He got dressed and
2 went to see him.
3 And if we turn to the next page, which is page 45 of e-court,
4 Mr. Bojanovic testified that:
5 "Major Obrenovic ordered me to take a part of our forces, one
6 reinforced platoon strong plus two Pragas," Praga being an anti-aircraft
7 two-barrel weapon, 30-millimetre in calibre, "plus one Doboj MUP platoon,
8 and go to the area of Maricici, a village that is seven to ten kilometres
9 away from Zvornik. He told me to leave a part of our forces there in
10 Maricici and take a platoon of civilian police" -- sorry, "a company of
11 civilian police commanded by Captain Zoran Jankovic, and link up the
12 forces taken by then-Captain Maric to the area of Snagovo."
13 Further down at line 21, he testified that:
14 "I left from the barracks in Karakaj with the mentioned units. I
15 passed through Zvornik. I came to the sector of Zlatne Vode, and then I
16 took the Maricici road, where I arrived at the Maricici sector. That is
17 where I left some of the forces, and with the rest I went towards the
18 Snagovo sector where I was supposed to meet up with Captain Maric."
19 And just to move things along, if we go to the next page, at
20 line 13, the question is:
21 "At one point you said that members of the police went with you?"
22 And his answer was:
23 "Yes. This was a unit that was attached for our assistance. The
24 unit came from Doboj, and I've told you who the commander was of that
1 And the question was:
2 "Was this the person who the next night on the 14th, in the
3 evening, was captured by the column of the 28th Division?"
4 Mr. Bojanovic's answer was:
5 "Yes. When we met up with Major Maric - actually, Captain
6 Maric - I had a different task. This was on the early morning on the
7 14th. I informed Captain Maric with this other captain. And afterwards
8 I found out that after I left for this other task, that that captain was
9 captured, the commander of the military police unit from the Doboj MUP."
10 The next question is:
11 "When Obrenovic issued this order to you, did he go with you or
12 did he remain in the command of the Zvornik Brigade?"
13 Mr. Bojanovic said:
14 "I don't know where he was. I left with the units, so I don't
15 know where he was after that."
16 And the final question is:
17 "Where did you receive this order from Obrenovic?"
18 And the answer was:
19 "On the 14th at 2.00 a.m. in the office of the duty operations
21 That's on the next page. And if we go to the bottom, we see that
22 Mr. Bojanovic returned to the barracks at approximately 6.00 a.m. that
23 same morning, the morning of the 14th.
24 Now, sir, you no doubt heard that Doboj Platoon commander, Zoran
25 Jankovic, was, in fact, captured by Muslim forces in the afternoon/late
1 day of 14 July; is that correct?
2 A. I heard that he was captured on the 14th of July; however, I
3 didn't learn it on that day. It was only later on that I came to know
4 about it. I don't know whether it was on the following morning or two
5 days later that I heard of it.
6 Q. Now, sir, do you recall seeing Ljubo Bojanovic in that area in
7 the early-morning hours of 14 July?
8 A. I wasn't able to see him on the 14th of July, because on that
9 day, in the early-morning hours of that day, I was at Maricici and he was
10 at Snagovo.
11 Q. Now, let's go back to Mr. Maric's testimony.
12 MR. THAYER: And if we can have 65 ter 3138 on the screen,
13 please, and that's page 62 of e-court.
14 Actually, if we could go back four pages to page 11599, please.
15 My apologies. That's page 58 of e-court. I just wanted to pick up one
16 point. And if we could actually go to the next page, 11600, page 59, at
17 line 17.
18 Q. Mr. Maric, sir, testified that in the morning of 14 July, and
19 this is at line 16:
20 "When I was touring the men, I had deployed at certain positions.
21 I saw those two prisoners, and that was when the chief of staff arrived,
22 around 8.00 or 9.00. I was present when these prisoners were
24 And the next question is:
25 "And who questioned these prisoners?"
1 And Mr. Maric replied:
2 "The chief of staff personally."
3 And at the bottom of the page, he says:
4 "I was there while the prisoners were being questioned."
5 MR. THAYER: Now, if we go again to page 11602, page 62 of
6 e-court -- 61.
7 Q. At line 4, Mr. Maric testified that:
8 "In that period, while the prisoners of war were being
9 questioned, Zoran Jovanovic came, the operations officer from the
10 brigade, and he brought a group of 50 to 60 soldiers as reinforcement.
11 Then, in that period, I noticed two prisoners who had surrendered to the
12 military police. They were boarded onto a truck. I also saw a couple of
13 soldiers boarding the truck. I think that these were two soldiers from
14 the engineers, from Dragan Jevtic's unit, about three or four donors.
15 And I could see a small number of people leaving. I asked Jevtic, 'Where
16 are you going? Where are these people going?' And he said, 'Under
17 Obrenovic's orders, we're leaving.' Obrenovic was there. He was about
18 ten metres away from where this was happening."
19 Now, you already told us, sir, that you do recall seeing
20 Mr. Maric while you were at Snagovo. Do you recall seeing Mr. Jevtic
21 while you were there?
22 A. Well, I can't remember that because I never did see them.
23 Q. So is it fair to say, sir, then, that you never saw two members
24 of the Engineering Company being sent back from that area any time on the
25 14th of July?
1 A. I wasn't able to see them, because on the 14th of July I had only
2 just come back to the barracks from Maricici; and between 11.00 and
3 12.00, I set out again for Maricici and took along a group of soldiers
4 from Maricici to Snagovo. I wasn't able to see them at all, because if
5 they went there, they probably used a vehicle. I was not able to see
6 these members of the engineering unit or Maric at all.
7 MR. THAYER: Now, if we go to the next page, 11603, and that's
8 page 62 in e-court.
9 Q. Towards the bottom of the page, the question is:
10 "And what happened then on the 14th in the evening, in the
12 And the answer was:
13 "After we finished with the prisoners, the chief ordered the unit
14 to organise itself and to start to search the terrain ahead in order to
15 go towards the column that was coming in. Up until about 1800 hours, the
16 deployment proceeded. Zoran's men, the military police, they were being
17 deployed, and they began to search the terrain."
18 Now, let me just ask you, sir: Having heard that portion of the
19 testimony, who do you think the "Zoran" is to whom Mr. Maric was
21 A. Truth to be told, I don't know which "Zoran" is referred to by
22 Maric here. I only know that on the 14th, I set out to scour the terrain
23 at around 1400 hours and I ended at 1700 hours, whereupon I pulled up
24 towards Snagovo, where I saw the chief of staff, Obrenovic, and his
25 driver. In the evening hours, I can tell you for a fact that no terrain
1 was being searched.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 I'm sorry. I think if the complete answer is written, maybe it
5 would help the witness, because on the next page, the reference is also
6 page 11604, a certain "Zoran," and that's just a completion the answer
7 that Mr. Thayer read. I think, in fairness to the witness, it may assist
8 him in which Zoran this Maric was referring to.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Ostojic is right, Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: I'd be happy to, Mr. President.
11 Q. If we go to the next page, Mr. Maric testified that:
12 "At around 1800 or 1830 hours, we clashed with the column of
13 Muslims. It was quite an intense clash. The fighting didn't last very
14 long, perhaps for about half an hour or so or an hour. Then there was
15 sporadic fire afterwards. Many of our fighters were killed at that time.
16 There were ones that were captured as well, and you could hear on the
17 radio that the commander, Major Zoran, from the command was captured. He
18 was the one who had brought the civilian police, the special police from
19 Doboj, and they were asking for a halt of the fire. The fire was halted
20 later. We continued to pull out our forces which had dispersed in
21 contact with the enemy, and this pullout went on until quite late into
22 the night, until about 2300 hours."
23 Now, sir, you were in this general area during this time, were
24 you not?
25 A. I was up there at the time, but I was again at Snagovo roughly
1 from 1400 hours, when the searches of the terrain started and when we
2 came to the foot of Velja Glava, and this ended at 1700 hours. As we
3 started descending towards Velja Glava, we stopped there because we could
4 hear shooting from the area of Liplje and Maricici. Beyond us, a column
5 of Muslim forces was passing. We did not engage in combat of any sort.
6 We didn't exchange fire. I was with the soldiers who were under the
7 commander of Zoran, but he wasn't a major, he was a platoon commander.
8 When this ended, when the column went past us, we decided to pull
9 out toward the old school building up at Snagovo. As we reached Snagovo,
10 I saw Obrenovic there, and I spent the night up there at Snagovo.
11 During my stay at Snagovo, during the night that I spent at
12 Snagovo, we did not engage the enemy in combat of any sort.
13 Q. Okay, sir. Well, this is precisely why I asked you the question
14 in the way that I did, because now it seems that you're telling us that
15 you, in fact, had police troops under your command on the 14th of July.
16 If I'm reading the transcript, you just said that:
17 "I was with the soldiers who were under the command of Zoran."
18 I think you've been consistent in telling us that on the 14th,
19 when you returned to that area, you were only in the presence and leading
20 soldiers from the Zvornik Brigade. Which is correct, sir?
21 A. What did I say? I said that I was leading the soldiers from the
22 Zvornik Brigade. The "Zoran" that I'm mentioning was a member of the
23 Zvornik Brigade who had a platoon under his command. The extent of my
24 contacts with the civilian police was only to take them up at Maricici.
25 The they were not under my command. They were independently performing
1 their assignment. I was merely introducing -- my role was merely to take
2 them to take up their positions and to return on the 14th, nothing more
3 than that. They were not members of the Army of Republika Srpska.
4 When I took the police forces up there, I returned; and then on
5 the 14th I went up to Snagovo with the army to link up the line from
6 Maricici to Snagovo, to fill out the gaps that weren't manned by a single
7 soldier. I did as much, and I started the searching of the terrain at
8 roughly 1400 hours.
9 Q. Now, sir, I just want to clarify one thing, based on your answer.
10 Your response to me a few moments ago, that this Zoran was not a
11 major, that he was a platoon commander, was in response to you hearing
12 the testimony from Mr. Maric that you could hear on the radio that the
13 commander, Major Zoran, was captured. He was the one who had brought the
14 civilian police, the special police from Doboj. And you just went out of
15 your way to correct me to say that: "No, no. That Major Zoran was
16 actually a platoon commander."
17 A. My apologies. I said that Major Zoran Jovanovic, which is me,
18 brought the civilian police at Maricici. I said that I met up with the
19 platoon commander beyond Velja Glava. He was a member of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska. His name was Zoran. I don't know what his family name
21 was. I didn't say that he was Zoran Jovanovic.
22 Zoran Jovanovic brought the police on the 14th at Maricici. The
23 this is something that I was stating all along.
24 Q. And the only Zoran that was captured on the 14th was the Doboj
25 Platoon commander, correct, Zoran Jankovic?
1 A. I don't know the name of the commander from Doboj, nor can I be
2 able to say that I received a report on the radio about his capture or
3 his name. What I said was that I heard only later that the commander of
4 the civilian police unit had been captured. What his name was, I didn't
6 MR. THAYER: Now, if we could go to page 11659, which is should
7 be 118 in e-court, but I think my math is off this morning, so it might
8 be 119. It is 118. Okay.
9 Q. Now, if we look at line 9, the question was put to Mr. Maric:
10 "Do you recall telling the investigators when you interviewed in
11 Banja Luka that you had heard Obrenovic on the radio during the day on
12 the 14th of July?"
13 And the answer is:
14 "Yes. He was in command when the operations began. He was with
15 us until we began to spread out. Then I went to the right flank. I
16 didn't physically see him. But later when the combat operations started,
17 when we clashed with the enemy, I heard him over the radio, over the
18 radio connection. And then when I actually came to the Snagovo road, he
19 was already there."
20 The question is:
21 "What time was this when you saw him on the Snagovo road on the
22 14th, roughly?"
24 "The pullout lasted until about 22 or 2300 hours. He was up
25 there. We waited until all of the soldiers pulled out, so that we could
1 see what the situation was in terms of the numbers."
2 Then the next question is:
3 "Okay. Let me see if this refreshes your recollection. Well, of
4 course, you've already testified on the morning of the 14th, you saw him
5 in the Snagovo area. In fact, he interrogated some of those prisoners;
7 And Mr. Maric answers.
8 MR. THAYER: And this is on the next page at the top, 119 in
10 Q. "I know that he questioned them. He interrogated them. After
11 that was finished, he waited for Zoran to come, and then he ordered what
12 he ordered."
13 Now, sir, I put it to you that the "Zoran" that Mr. Maric is
14 referring to here is you. Is that correct?
15 A. This is what you are claiming. However, if he had been waiting
16 for Zoran Jovanovic, then Zoran Jovanovic could only have come after
17 12.00 to the area where I was headed to conduct the scouring of the
19 Q. Now, if we just go down quickly to the bottom of this page,
20 Mr. Maric testifies that with respect to Major Obrenovic:
21 " ... I know that immediately prior to the clash with the Muslim
22 forces, I could hear him over the radio. He commanded throughout the
23 entire operation during the pullout, and then when the truce went into
24 force. So he was constantly on the radio. Once I got to the road,
25 physically reached the road, I saw him there. He was in a vehicle. By
1 that time, it was already dark. When the pullout was completed, it was
2 already dark, so it was probably quite late."
3 And, sir, how does this comport with your recollection of seeing
4 Mr. Obrenovic later in the day of the 14th?
5 A. I said earlier that I saw Obrenovic only at around 1800 hours,
6 or, rather, between 1700 hours and 1900 hours. I cannot tell you the
7 precise time but it was towards the evening, because we were pulling out
8 from below Velja Glava to Snagovo. I don't know how long the pullout had
9 lasted, but I only know that once we reached the old school, we were
10 tasked to billet there and to head for the new school, where we spent the
12 Only on the morning of the 15th, I was ordered to go back. I
13 cannot tell you about the other forces. I know that my part of the unit
14 withdrew towards the evening to Snagovo, let's say, around 1800 or 1900
16 Q. Now, sir, there is evidence in this case from one of those two
17 Engineering Company members who was sent to Snagovo and then ordered to
18 return to the base, and he testified in the Blagojevic case that he went
19 up there the night of the 13th, going into the 14th, and that he saw
20 Major Obrenovic at Snagovo at about 4.00 a.m. in the morning of 14 July.
21 MR. THAYER: That's in the testimony of Milos Mitrovic, for the
22 record, which is 65 ter number 2259 admitted pursuant to Rule 92 bis.
23 Q. Where do you recall being at 4.00 a.m. on the morning of 14 July,
25 A. I remember that I was in Maricici.
1 JUDGE KWON: Could you give me the 65 ter number again?
2 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Your Honour. That's 2259, and the
3 transcript references for that exhibit are 5597 to 5599.
4 Now, if we could have 65 ter 3465, and if we go to page 34.
5 I think that's of both the document and of e-court, and if we could go to
6 the bottom of the page, please. It's going to be the next page. I think
7 the pagination changed when we put it into e-court.
8 That's it. If we could go to the bottom of this page, please.
9 Q. If we look at page 19, and this is an OTP -- that is an interview
10 conducted by investigators for the Office of the Prosecutor with
11 Mr. Dragan Jevtic on 13 December 1999
12 "Now it's the 14th. On 14, in the morning, I don't remember
13 exactly what time was it, one person, one young man arrested was brought
14 there. I remember he was very young, and that he sat there and ate one
15 kilo of bread right away without anything, just bread. Major Obrenovic
16 was with him, and they started questioning. One of the questions was how
17 many people are with them, and then I heard that he said there were 20 or
18 30 coming behind him. That young man was taken later on for further
19 questioning in the brigade command."
20 And this is page 29 in the B/C/S:
21 "We stayed there until 2.00 in the afternoon. Then Major
22 Obrenovic told us, to our line and the rest of the soldiers, that we
23 cannot wait for them, that we have to go first, so the movement started.
24 I was at the end."
25 MR. THAYER: And that's also the next page, and we're there at
1 page 3422, end of the ERN.
2 Q. So we have another person who recalls seeing Major Obrenovic
3 interrogating a prisoner in the morning of 14 July.
4 And if we could go back to page 23, I just want to pick up one
5 thing before we move on, and it will have to be the next page because of
6 this pagination issue.
7 Q. Mr. Jevtic is asked the question:
8 "Do you remember the code name which was used by Maric for the
9 purpose, the radio code name?"
10 And his answer was:
11 "Yes, I do remember it, Jasen."
12 Do you recall that code name being used during that period of
13 time, sir?
14 A. I don't remember that name.
15 Q. Do you remember any of the code names used during this period of
17 A. These radio names were used on a daily basis and they were
18 changed regularly, so it is difficult for me to tell you and to name
19 these code names to you.
20 Q. Okay. Let's look at another document.
21 MR. THAYER: And this is 65 ter 2231, and the English version is
22 at 2232.
23 Q. Sir, what I'm going to show you are some excerpts from a notebook
24 maintained by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which recorded tactical
25 intercepts; that is, intercepted radio communications between various VRS
2 MR. THAYER: And if we could have page 9 of the B/C/S first, and
3 we'll have to see how legible this is on e-court. We'll have to go up to
4 ERN ending in 8949, please, and if we could go down a little bit. Right
5 there is perfect.
6 Q. Sir, can you read that? Is that okay or do you need the
8 A. Well, I'm looking at it. There is mention here of Ljubo, Jasen,
9 Sidro, which are meaningless to me, really.
10 Q. Okay. Well, you can take my word for it, sir, that this entry in
11 this book is the list of the -- refers to the list of the active
12 frequencies and users on 13 July 1995
13 referred to follows a section where the intercept operators are noticing
14 that there's all of a sudden a lot of activity towards the end of the
15 night and early-morning hours of the --
16 JUDGE KWON: English page.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I think we have got the wrong
19 MR. THAYER: The English should be page 4, Mr. President, at the
20 top. My apologies.
21 May I proceed, Mr. President?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We're just trying to match the B/C/S with the
24 MR. THAYER: It's not easy with the way it's formatted.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. We have done it.
1 JUDGE KWON: We were just wondering if the witness was able to
3 MR. THAYER: He went, actually, Your Honour, to the section I was
4 going to by himself.
5 Q. So where we are is there's an entry that reflects a lot of
6 activity on the radio net in the early-morning hours of the 14th of July;
7 late night 13, early-morning hours of the 14th.
8 The line you just looked at reads:
9 "They informed Lovac."
10 That's the com centre, is that right, or that doesn't ring a bell
11 for you?
12 A. [No verbal response]
13 Q. That's okay. I'll move on, sir:
14 "They informed Lovac about all movements of our troops, Premier,
15 Strsljen," and in parentheses, it says "Ljubo."
16 Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Bojanovic using that code ever,
18 A. I most certainly don't know anything about this. Each unit was
19 given its own code name. And if we were to meet, for example, Ljubo and
20 I, I would also have his code name. However, I cannot tell you exactly
21 who was using which code name. If it says here that Lovac was to be
22 informed, this probably refers to the brigade command.
23 Q. Now, then we see there's a reference to Jasen, and we just that
24 was Mr. Maric's code.
25 The final line is:
1 "Those were attached units that arrived during the night."
2 Now, if we could go, and this is the last page on the document I
3 want to refer your attention to, to page 6 of the English and page 12 of
4 the B/C/S.
5 MR. THAYER: Now, if we could go down to the bottom of the page.
6 Bear with me, please, one moment.
7 I'm sorry. We're going to need to go back one page. And if we
8 can scroll down, and then pop over to the next page, please, we'll be
9 looking at the middle of the page on the next page. There's an entry
10 for -- okay. If we could just scroll up a little bit.
11 Q. Sir, do you see the entry that says "Lovac, Lovac 1" towards the
12 top of the page in B/C/S, and this is the top of the page of page 6 in
13 English. This is from the 14th of July, in the afternoon:
14 "Lovac, Lovac 1. Check in the base of Zoran Jankovic --" sorry,
15 "Zoran Jovanovic has set off already, and then let me know. He's leaving
16 just now. Have him hurry up."
17 This suggests that you were still on the move and that Major
18 Obrenovic was still waiting for you to arrive on the afternoon of the
19 14th of July. How does that comport with your recollection, sir?
20 A. I arrived at Snagovo on the 14th of July, after 12.00, so that
21 was actually early afternoon, and we started to scour the terrain at 1400
22 hours. Those were our orders.
23 Q. Now, I want to show you P383.
24 On this day, the 14th of July, sir, it's fair to say that the
25 Zvornik Brigade had mobilised virtually every able-bodied person it could
1 in the brigade to be in the field, to protect the town of Zvornik and the
2 settlements along the route that the VRS expected the retreating column
3 of Muslim soldiers and military-aged men to be following; is that
5 A. The brigade command that mobilised the men, and this is something
6 that the commander and the drafting office know. No other person should
7 know about that; only people who are entrusted with forming the units
8 were subsequently informed about this.
9 Q. Well, sir, my question is a little bit more simple than that.
10 There was an extraordinarily grave threat to the municipality of Zvornik
11 during this period of time, was there not, and that's why all of these
12 units and mixed forces, police and reservists, were being mobilised;
13 isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes. There was a serious threat, and the commanders and the
15 command of police and everybody else knew about that. However, we, who
16 were operations personnel in units, we were not supposed to or we
17 shouldn't have known that. I do know that there was a great danger. Why
18 men were mobilised, it was done because it had been established that
19 there was a large number of Muslim men who managed to pull out of
20 Srebrenica and whose intention was to cross over.
21 MR. THAYER: Now, if we could go to page 8, I hope, in e-court,
22 and this is page 6 of the English.
23 Q. What I'm showing you, sir, is a page from the barracks duty
24 officer notebook. Are you familiar with the notebook that was maintained
25 in connection with the situation in the barracks on a daily basis?
1 A. Records were kept in the office of the operations duty officer of
2 all reports received from the positions, and this is called the duty
3 operations officer's book.
4 Q. Yes, sir. What I'm referring to is a different book that was
5 referred to as the barracks duty officer book, in which someone was
6 tasked each day to record the comings and goings of visitors and the
7 general state of the barracks. Do you recall such a notebook being
8 maintained at Standard?
9 A. I have never had this hand [as interpreted] in my book -- in my
10 hands, because it was up to other organs to keep this kind of records.
11 Q. Okay. Well, if we look at the bottom of the page, sir, do you
12 see the reference --
13 MR. THAYER: Again, that's page 6 of the English.
14 Q. If we look at the bottom of page 6 of the English, it says:
15 "A body of troops at the barracks was not counted due to the
16 activities in the field, and practically only operations duty officer and
17 guards were at the barracks."
18 Now, sir, the Trial Chamber's heard a lot of evidence that on the
19 14th of July, that the barracks were virtually empty because everybody
20 was being sent to the terrain. In fact, we've heard that they even sent
21 the lawyers to the terrain. So you know they were in trouble if they're
22 sending lawyers to the terrain.
23 Now, would you not expect Major Obrenovic, as a good commander,
24 to be in the field during that day on the 14th of July, as the man in
25 charge of the brigade, because that's where he should be, where the main
1 effort, the main threat was concentrated?
2 A. When I saw Dragan Obrenovic, that was in Snagovo between 1700
3 hours and 1900 hours; and on that occasion, I received an order from him
4 at the barracks, on the 14th, to lead the army and to link them up with
5 our police in order to conduct the search of the terrain. Then I saw him
6 on the evening of the 14th in Snagovo. Since he had a car, he was
7 mobile. He could -- he was able to come up there and go down. I was not
8 in his escort, and I cannot tell you exactly what his movements were. I
9 just told you when and where I saw him.
10 Q. Well, sir, you just heard that Mr. Maric and Mr. Bojanovic
11 testified about linking up with each other in Maricici.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, if you could kindly wind up and finish.
13 MR. THAYER: I'm doing my best, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. We'll be calling on you to finish within
15 the next five minutes.
16 MR. THAYER: Okay.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Sir, you heard the testimony of Mr. Maric and Mr. Bojanovic about
20 linking up with each other in Maricici in the early-morning hours between
21 the 13th and 14th of July, but neither of those gentlemen mentions seeing
22 you there with the Doboj police at that time. Do you have an explanation
23 for that, sir?
24 A. I do. This is my explanation: The night between the 13th and
25 the 14th, I spent at Maricici. The units of Maric and Ljubo Bojanovic,
1 who they took up there, were not even close to Maricici, because Snagovo
2 is quite a way from Maricici. The two are linked only with a trail,
3 practically, that could be trafficable only by foot and not through -- by
4 vehicles. I did not see either Maric or Bojanovic close to Maricici at
5 all. It is for them to state whatever they wish to. I can tell you that
6 they were not at Maricici.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. THAYER: If we could quickly go to P0377.
9 Q. You were shown yesterday a 19 July daily combat report that
10 referred to members of the 16th Krajina Brigade being present in the zone
11 of responsibility of Commander Pandurevic and the Zvornik Brigade, and
12 about two soldiers who were captured on 13 and eliminated or liquidated.
13 MR. THAYER: If we look at page 160, and it's also the English
14 page 160.
15 Q. You'll see a reference to IKM, that is, forward command post,
16 Ljubo reported that men from the 16th Krajina are at trig point 6002 -
17 that's at the very bottom of the page, sir - and that Obrenovic should be
19 Now, you testified yesterday about what was characterized to you
20 as the prevailing practice at the time concerning the treatment of
21 prisoners, and you made a point of saying that it wouldn't make sense if
22 they captured two and executed the rest, because they would have executed
23 everybody if that's what they had wanted to do. Do you remember that?
24 A. I do. That referred to the two that were captured and 13 who
25 were executed.
1 Q. Now, perhaps --
2 MR. THAYER: Well, we may have a translation issue here, to be
3 fair to the witness and the record, Mr. President. The witness said "13
4 executed." I just want to ask whether that's what he said or what he
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Please. Yes, go ahead.
7 MR. THAYER:
8 Q. Can you answer the question, sir?
9 The transcript refers to you answer, saying:
10 "That referred to the two that were captured and 13 who were
12 My question to you, because I want to make sure we get what you
13 say correctly is: Did you say the 13 that were executed or did you say
14 something else, sir?
15 A. As far as I remember, the daily combat report referred to two
16 captured and 13 liquidated. No, I didn't say ever that they were
17 executed. "Liquidated" meant that in the course of combat, they were
18 liquidated, or that's to say 13. Two of them probably surrendered
19 themselves, and that's why it was said that they were taken prisoner.
20 No, I didn't say that they were executed. That meant that you actually
21 captured them and then you shot them. "Liquidated" means in the course
22 of combat.
23 Q. Now, sir, the Trial Chamber has heard testimony from a witness
24 who survived an execution near Nezuk.
25 MR. THAYER: That is PW-139.
1 Q. He describes there being with a group of about 20 people who came
2 under fire, and then watching several of the people he was with being
3 executed in front of him until he was kept alive, he said, because the
4 Serb soldiers thought he had value as a soldier for exchange.
5 Now, I want to show you very quickly 65 ter 3459?
6 MR. THAYER: It's page 10 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S,
7 last paragraph, and if we could just go to the next page, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry for the interruption, but this exhibit is
10 not on the list of exhibits.
11 MR. THAYER: It's on the list that we distributed this morning,
12 and I distributed hard copies to everybody before the decision and
13 specifically advised people of the topic that I would be addressing.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But please conclude in the next two
15 minutes, Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Now, sir, if we can scroll down, please, there is a reference to,
20 "at the site of the village of Krizevici
21 There's some coordinates that are given. Do you see those coordinates,
22 sir, CQ 41.7-22.6?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Sir, I'll put it to you, and just to save time, I won't show you
25 the maps we've got, but just north of trig point 602, which was reported
1 as the location of the 16th Krajina Brigade on the 18th, just north of
2 that location, at those coordinates, a mass grave was exhumed, and the
3 remains of one of the people who PW-139 testified seeing executed were
4 recovered from that mass grave, sir.
5 Now, you testified yesterday about that daily combat report and
6 what you understood happened that day. Having heard this information,
7 that there's been a DNA match putting one of the people that PW-139 said
8 was with him and executed at this location at Nezuk on the 19th of July,
9 the day you wrote that daily combat report, does that change your
10 conclusion about what --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Thayer.
12 Yes, Madame Fauveau.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I'm wrong.
14 Could the Prosecutor tell us the identity of the people who were found in
15 this mass grave, or at least a group identity?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madame Fauveau.
17 Mr. Thayer?
18 MR. THAYER: I can do that in private session. It's in evidence,
19 and I can give the name of the one person that I'm referring to.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session straight away, then,
21 and do that.
22 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 MR. THAYER:
12 Q. You testified about what that daily combat report meant, and I'm
13 asking you: Having heard this information, does that change your
14 understanding of what happened that day and the treatment of prisoners
15 that day, or is it still your position that Muslim prisoners were treated
16 correctly on all occasions that you were aware of?
17 A. Let me first answer in relation to the daily combat report.
18 A daily combat report is written on the basis of the reports
19 received from the battalion commands, i.e., the subordinate units which
20 were duty-bound on reporting the events and activities of the date.
21 This daily combat report refers to two persons captured and 13
22 killed. I stand by what I said, that these wounds and deaths were the
23 result of combat. As far as the treatment of prisoners is concerned,
24 I can tell you what my conduct was in that respect and what I believe was
25 the conduct of the brigade command. I can't tell what it is, the
1 treatment. I only can tell you that I know of the four prisoners that I
2 sent on to the brigade command. It was not my duty to deal with that
3 segment, the treatment and the dealings with the prisoners of war. I do
4 believe, however, that this was the treatment accorded to them, the
5 proper treatment.
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 MR. THAYER: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 I take it you have a re-examination. I would imagine so.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Sarapa, do you have a re-examination, too?
12 I can't hear you.
13 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] One question.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with Mr. Zivanovic.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
16 Q. Good morning to you, Mr. Jovanovic, again.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Let us first clarify certain details that remained unclear with
19 relation to the Doboj police unit. I will therefore show certain
20 documents to you and ask you to look at them.
21 Let us start with the exhibit shown to you by the Prosecutor,
22 which is document 3138. He showed you pages 60 and 62, and I will show
23 you page 61.
24 I want to take you to the earlier page, in fact.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the page before this
1 one, page 60. My apologies.
2 Q. Please look at lines 9 and 10. Among other things, he says
4 [In English] "There was a major there as well. I think his name
5 was Zoran, who had brought a special unit from Doboj."
6 [Interpretation] This is my first question: Did you hold the
7 rank of major at the time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. To your knowledge, was there someone else in your unit whose name
10 was Zoran and who had the rank of major?
11 A. To my knowledge, there was none.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at another
13 Prosecution exhibit, from their list; namely 3430.
14 I don't know if the document has been translated, but I will
15 refer to it only briefly.
16 Q. Can you conclude that this is an official note of interview --
17 official record of an interview, that the date is the 16th of August,
18 1995, and that it was drafted by the State Security Service in Tuzla
19 you see that much?
20 A. You mean in the heading up there?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I can see that, yes.
23 Q. The first paragraph states the source, where you have the name of
24 Zoran Jankovic, his personal background, and the second line says:
25 "Active policeman of the Public Security Centre in Doboj, the
1 Traffic Safety Station in Modrici."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you see next, as part of his personal background, the mention
5 of any sort of rank?
6 A. To tell you the truth, I don't.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us turn to page 3 of this
8 document, please.
9 Q. Look at the paragraph that was marked by someone earlier on,
10 which says, as part of the CJB Doboj, there is the police -- special
11 purpose police detachment, numbering around 150 men. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes. Although the legibility is quite poor, but I can see the
13 mention of 150 men.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Can we now turn to page 13 of the document.
15 Q. The second paragraph starts at follows, "On the 13th of July,
16 1995 ... "
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Let me read it out to you:
19 "On the 13th of July, 1995, pursuant to a decision by the chief
20 of the Public Security Station in Doboj, from Jankovic's police station
21 for traffic safety, the following persons were sent out to the Zvornik
23 Next follow various names which I will skip, except for the last
24 name, which is that "Zoran Jankovic." Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The paragraph below, the first sentence of the paragraph that
2 follows, states the total of 97 men were deployed to the Zvornik
3 battlefield from the Doboj CJB. Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And we can see that they are from the stations from Doboj,
6 Derventa, Bosanski Brod, Teslic, and Odzak. The next sentence reads:
7 "The commander of this company was Dragan Gavric."
8 Let me find the relevant part. Please bear with me until I find
9 the right passage.
10 The following paragraph talks about what this group that was
11 deployed did on the 14th of July.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just scroll down a bit,
14 Q. And there the platoon commanders who made up the group are
15 mentioned. Do you see there, in line 3, that the commander of the
16 3rd Platoon was Jankovic?
17 A. I see that.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Can we look at document 4D394.
19 Q. This is an order which came from the office of the Ministry of
20 Interior, dated the 13th of July, 1995, sent to several addresses in
21 Doboj. We have the abbreviation "CBP," "SOP Doboj." I don't know if you
22 know what these abbreviations stand for. But since the order is quite
23 short - I don't know if it has been translated or not, I believe it
24 has - it reads:
25 "Form forthwith a reinforced police unit which will be composed
1 of the 1st Company of the PJP Doboj and elements of the forces of the SOP
3 The next sentence reads:
4 "The unit is duty-bound to report to Zvornik during the course of
5 the day, where it will be given specific assignments. Upon the
6 deployment of the unit, a report to that effect should be sent with
7 reference to the above number."
8 It's signed by Deputy Minister of the Interior. I believe the
9 name is Tomislav Kovac.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just see the signature
11 on the bottom of the page, please.
12 Can we now look at another document, which is 4D399.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We are wondering, because you didn't actually ask a
14 question, whether you are combining this document with the next one and
15 then put the question. I don't know what your intention is.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me put a question to you
17 right away.
18 Q. Did you see, on the basis of this, from the order of the Ministry
19 of the Interior, that the unit should report on the 13th of July, on the
20 same day when that order was issued in Zvornik?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Tell me, was this physically possible at all, for the unit to
23 reach Zvornik from Doboj by the time you set out for Maricici with a part
24 of the unit?
25 A. Yes. It's physically possible because the distance between Doboj
1 and Zvornik is 100 kilometres.
2 Q. Thank you. Now look at the document you have on your screen,
3 which reads -- or, rather, this is the response from the 5th Police
4 Detachment, as the document says, and the document has a date of the 13th
5 of July, 1995, which reads:
6 "Elements of the forces of the 5th Detachment of the SBP Doboj
7 was deployed to its destination at 1200 hours."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. The detachment commander signed it.
11 What I'd like to know is whether, on the basis of this, you are
12 able to infer, on the basis of what you know, that this unit did not
13 arrive as a whole to Zvornik. First one part of this group reached
14 Zvornik, followed by the second?
15 A. I don't know in how many groups they arrived.
16 Let me just correct what I've said about the distance. It's a
17 bit over 100 kilometres because you went across Bijeljina and Brcko to
18 reach Zvornik, but it was physically possible to reach Zvornik quite
19 swiftly. I don't know if the group arrived as a whole or in several
20 batches. I only know that ...
21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the hour?
22 A. ... that at that time, this group that I sent over to Maricici
24 JUDGE KWON: And also, Mr. Zivanovic, if you could clarify this.
25 In the English page of the document, it says that part of the forces were
1 sent to the destination, but your question was interpreted as they were
2 deployed. So I'm not aware of the nuances.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was quoting the text, which
4 says part of the forces of the 5th Detachment of the SBJ Doboj was sent
5 to its destination.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes: This was the
7 translation from the original by the interpreter in the booth, since we
8 don't have the original.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if it was
10 interpreted differently.
11 Q. But on the basis of this, would you conclude that they set out
12 from Doboj at about 1200 hours?
13 A. According to this letter, it says that they were sent at
14 1200 hours, which means that they -- that was the time when they left
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Time for a break, yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more do you require, how much more time?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe not less than half an hour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And then, Mr. Sarapa, how much time do you require?
20 MR. SARAPA: Five minutes, no more.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.
23 Thank you.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jovanovic, at the beginning, I wanted to
4 present to you all these segments of Maric's testimony, but my learned
5 colleague beat me to it. He showed all this to you, and I'm not going to
6 repeat myself. I think that the replies that you have given are quite
7 sufficient in order to interpret this Maric's testimony in a true light.
8 Let me ask you something different. I am referring to the code
9 names that were used on the ground, and I'm specifically referring to
10 tactical intercept.
11 When you went to the terrain, or any other high-ranking officers
12 from the brigade, for that matter, were they accompanied by any person
13 who was taking care that they have communications with the Command and
14 with other parts of the brigade that were on location?
15 A. Yes. A communications officer would accompany him.
16 Q. On the night of the 13th, and on the 14th, 15th and 16th, as you
17 described, did you have a communications officer with you as well?
18 A. Not on the night of the 13th; but on the 13th and 15th and 16th,
19 I had a communications officer with me in the field.
20 Q. Tell me now, please -- let us just repeat the dates. You said,
21 on one of the dates, he wasn't there, and tell us on which dates he was
22 there. Can you repeat that, please, just to correct the transcript,
23 because there was a slight mistake.
24 A. On the 14th, when I went on Maricici to search the terrain, and
25 then again on the 15th and 16th.
1 Q. You said that you set off on the 14th to Maricici, and there was
2 another place you mentioned?
3 A. Snagovo.
4 Q. On the day when you didn't have a communications officer, what
5 date was that?
6 A. That was on the night of the 13th, when I took the police to
8 Q. When you want to establish communication with the Command or
9 other parts of your units, are you doing that personally or is that being
10 done by a communications officer?
11 A. A communications officer establishes the line. If I need to
12 speak to the Command, then it is I who speak to them. If, however, some
13 information has to be passed on, then I tell the communications officer
14 to do it himself.
15 Q. Does that mean that the communications officer has to be familiar
16 with all the code names applicable to the Command and everybody else that
17 you are communicating with?
18 A. He has a plan of communications containing all the code names of
19 commands and staffs.
20 Q. In other words, was it your duty to know which particular code
21 was used by any unit on a particular day, or was it his duty to know
23 A. It was up to the communications officer to know that.
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. So it was not your obligation to be
25 familiar with these secret codes assigned to certain parts of units or
1 individual officers on a particular day?
2 A. It was my duty to know them, but I didn't have to have a list of
3 the names with me. That was something that the communications officer
4 had to have with him.
5 Q. And, for example, if you asked the communications officer to
6 connect you to, let's say, Ljubo Bojanovic or somebody else, are you
7 going to say, "Connect me to Ljubo Bojanovic," or do you have to say,
8 "Connect me with Pauk, Snail, Wasp," or any other code name?
9 A. When I order a communications officer to establish a connection,
10 I can only do so with the persons with whom I have the plan of work, and
11 that is the plan of work for that particular day, and I can only
12 communicate with the persons contained in this plan.
13 Q. I understand that, but my question was: How did you tell him the
14 name of the commander? Would you give him full name or would you give
15 him the code name of the person you wished to call?
16 A. I don't have to say the code name. Suffice it to say, "Call the
18 Q. Can you please now look at the Prosecution Exhibit 3435 that the
19 Prosecutor has shown to you. It contained a conversation or an
20 intelligence report -- correction. It's a report on the interview with
21 Dragan Obrenovic, and I would like to ask you a few questions in this
23 You, according to your recollection, you testified here --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
25 Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Just to keep the record clear, Your Honour, this
2 does not reflect the conversation with Dragan Obrenovic, but with an
3 attorney representing Dragan Obrenovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. It might have been
5 my mistake. This was a conversation with the lawyer of Dragan Obrenovic,
6 not Dragan Obrenovic himself.
7 Q. According to your recollection, you said that present during this
8 interview was an American lawyer, an interpreter, and Obrenovic's
9 brother, and someone else whom you cannot remember. I would like to ask
10 you: Do you remember where you met these people? What kind of building
11 was that?
12 A. It was in an office near the monument in Zvornik. As far as
13 I can remember, that used to be a law firm office. I'm not sure. But it
14 is right next to the monument in the center of the town.
15 Q. Do you remember who asked you questions? Was it our colleague
16 from the United States, through the interpreter, or did someone else ask
17 you questions? Did you have any direct communication without an
19 A. As far as I can remember, the questions were posed by the
20 American lawyer, and we communicated through the interpreter because my
21 knowledge of English -- of the English language is not sufficient for us
22 to communicate directly.
23 Q. Do you remember if anyone wrote down your answers or anything
24 that transpired during this conversation?
25 A. They probably noted it down, but to tell you the truth, I didn't
1 pay attention to that. Probably, a record has to be kept if you're
2 asking someone questions and getting answers from them.
3 Q. Do you remember if they offered you to have this conversation
5 A. I don't think so.
6 Q. Do you remember if they proposed to compile a written statement
7 that you could possibly sign?
8 A. Probably, had they made such a proposal, I would have signed this
9 statement. I have no reason to hide anything, and I also have no reason
10 not to sign what I say orally.
11 Q. In this statement, or at least in this conversation as presented
12 to us - you only have an English version in front of you, and I
13 translated it when we did the briefing, and this was also put to you by
14 the Prosecutor - I see that it says that you could not remember who had
15 given you the order to go to Maricici, to Snagovo, et cetera.
16 What I would like to hear is the following: During the
17 conversation, did the lawyer who questioned you ask you who was the
18 person who was competent to send you there? I suppose that would be a
19 useful piece of information for him, because it concerns his client.
20 A. To tell you honestly, I don't remember being asked that question.
21 Q. Do you know for what reasons were they interested in your
22 movements, where you went in those days?
23 A. If they were interested in my movements, on whose orders, that
24 was probably the motive for their interest.
25 Q. During your testimony, you said that you remember these dates and
1 events by taking the Baljkovica battle and the opening of the corridor as
2 reference points. I remember you saying that. In this conversation, as
3 interpreted in this document, there is a description of what you were
4 doing over the course of four days, but we do not have the dates for
5 these days.
6 So let us go through these four days, and let us try to
7 reconstruct the dates from the statement that you gave in 2001 -- excuse
8 me, not the statement; rather, the conversation that you had with the
9 Defence counsel of Dragan Obrenovic.
10 I'm going to begin with the first five passages of this report.
11 It contains some general information which I'm not going to ask you
12 about, but let us focus on paragraph 6. I'm going to read it out to you,
13 because you cannot understand it otherwise:
14 [In English] " One night," he doesn't remember the exact date,
15 "at about 2130 p.m., someone asked him," he doesn't know who, "whether he
16 was willing to go with the civilian police unit to Maricici. He spent
17 the night there. In the morning, the next day somebody," he doesn't know
18 who, "from Standard called him to return back to Standard."
19 [Interpretation] Based on this event, can you tell me what
20 particular day this refers to, of all the days that you mention the
21 throughout your testimony? In other words, the day when you went to
22 Maricici, what was the date?
23 A. It was the 13th, and the morning was on the 14th.
24 Q. Now we see a description, an account of your activities on the
25 14th. That's the remaining part of this page, and it reads as follows:
1 [In English] "Someone said," he doesn't know by whom, "to get
2 about 60 to 70 men with him and go to Snagovo."
3 [Interpretation] I am not going to read all this in order to save
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now just move to page 2.
6 Q. It says that you reached Snagovo at [In English] "... 14 hours,
7 and it was then that he first saw Dragan Obrenovic for the first time."
8 [Interpretation] Therefore, I'm not going to go into details, but
9 can you tell me, about this particular day, which day is that in your
11 A. The 14th.
12 Q. Let us look at paragraph 4 on this page:
13 [In English] "The next day, in the morning, Jovanovic went to
14 Orahovac. There was visible traces on the grass showing that the Muslim
15 column had passed along Perunika."
16 [Interpretation] There is no need for me to continue reading.
17 You told us what you did in Orahovac. Can you tell us which date this
18 was in your testimony?
19 A. The 15th.
20 Q. We are now going to skip the next three paragraphs and move on to
21 paragraph 8, which reads:
22 [In English} "There was heavy combat in Baljkovica. Near
23 Krizevici, they captured four Muslim men. One of them had a hunting
24 rifle. These men were interrogated; and after half an hour, at the most,
25 they were sent by TAM truck to the Zvornik Brigade under the escort of
1 four soldiers."
2 [Interpretation] And now -- I apologise. One part of my
3 quotation is missing, and I'm going to read it again:
4 [In English] " ... combat in Baljkovica."
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no. I repeat the whole paragraph again.
6 Q. [Interpretation] This is paragraph 8:
7 [In English] "The next day there was heavy combat in Baljkovica.
8 Near Krizevici, they captured four Muslim men. One of them had a hunting
9 rifle. These men were interrogated; and after half hour at the most they
10 were sent by TAM truck to the Zvornik Brigade under the escort of four
12 [Interpretation] So now you mentioned the names of two soldiers,
13 and you say the following in the next paragraph:
14 "That day Mrga, [Previous translation continues ...] [In English]
15 "... Baljkovica. Jovanovic heard that Vinko ordered the opening of the
16 corridor. The same day he returned to the office in Standard."
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We're missing again the beginning
18 of the quotation; namely, words:
19 "That day Mrga, [In English] one of the Drina Wolves was killed
20 in Baljkovica. Jovanovic heard that Vinko ordered the opening of the
21 corridor. The same day he returned to the office in Standard."
22 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell me what date was this, in relation
23 to your testimony?
24 A. The 16th.
25 Q. So, when we reconstruct this conversation that you -- that the
1 representatives of Dragan Obrenovic had with you, can you see any
2 difference between what was said in this report and what you described to
3 us here? I'm focusing only on the dates. I'm not talking about
4 Obrenovic or other things.
5 A. As far as I can see, there are no discrepancies.
6 Q. Neither can I.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 Mr. Sarapa.
10 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document 377,
11 page 160. Can we look at the bottom of the page, and can it be enlarged
12 so that the witness can see it properly.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
14 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, the last entry on the bottom of the page says:
15 "Ljubo has informed that from the 16th Krajina are at TT 602, and
16 Obrenovic shall be informed about this."
17 Can you see this?
18 A. Yes, I can.
19 Q. What does "TT" stand for, this abbreviation, "TT 602"?
20 A. That means "trig point."
21 Q. You mean trig point, you would agree with mean?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, this will be corrected at line 18,
24 page 41, it's not a "cross-examination" by Mr. Sarapa, but it's a
25 "re-examination" by Mr. Sarapa.
1 So please proceed, Mr. Sarapa.
2 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Does TT point 602, mentioned here, actually indicate Cetino Brdo?
4 A. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure.
5 Q. You are familiar with the terrain. How far is Cetino Brdo from
6 Krizevici, if you know where Cetino Brdo is, and I presume you do?
7 A. I know approximately where Cetino Brdo is; but as for the
8 distance, I cannot tell you exactly.
9 Q. Where are Motovo and Motovska Kosa?
10 A. I have heard of these places, but I don't know exactly where they
12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the
13 document that was used by the Prosecution during the examination, and the
14 number is P3459, page 5 in B/C/S and page 10 in English. Can we please
15 see the bottom of the page.
16 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, please look at the last paragraph, which begins on
17 the location, and can you read it through the first three lines.
18 Have you read it?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] For the record, this is a text which
22 "On the locality of the village of Krizevici
23 the site called Brezjak, the site where sand is extracted, the location
24 called Kum, owned by Safeta Smajlovic of Motovo, a mass grave was found
25 containing the remains of eight individuals."
1 Q. Mr. Jovanovic --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Sarapa, could you please repeat your
4 The interpreters note that they had a delay because they had to
5 interpret from the B/C/S text.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: But what does that mean? Can we proceed?
7 I suggest you repeat your question, please, Mr. Sarapa.
8 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
9 Q. This is the question: Is the witness aware of and has the
10 witness heard of Muslims who were killed in Baljkovica having been buried
11 at Motovska Kosa.
12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] You don't have the witness's answer?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't heard him giving any answer.
14 Mr. Jovanovic, you're still reading or what?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was waiting to be told to confirm
16 my answer. I answered that I was not aware of that. That was before
17 your intervention.
18 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Let me put another question to you. Is Motovo close to
21 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's close to Krizevici. I
22 know the location of Krizevici, but I can't tell you where exactly Motovo
24 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.
2 Mr. Jovanovic, we don't have any further questions for you, which
3 means that you can go. Your testimony ends here.
4 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having
5 come over to give testimony; and on behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe
6 journey back home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with the documents.
10 Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We are asking to tender five documents used in
12 re-examination of the witness. This is Prosecution document 3138, 3430,
13 and 3435, and 4D394 and 4D399.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, any objection?
15 MR. THAYER: No objection, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from any of the Defence teams? None.
17 They are so admitted.
18 Mr. Sarapa, do you have any?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just one correction.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. There is -- there is no written in the
22 transcript: "4D392 and 4D399.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
24 Mr. Registrar, do you have an indication of these documents? Do
25 you have the details of these documents? Yes. Okay.
1 Mr. Sarapa, do you have any documents to tender?
2 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] All the documents I've used have
3 already been admitted: 3D377, 3D --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to repeat them if you are not
5 tendering them.
6 Mr. Thayer, do you have any documents that you wish to tender?
7 MR. THAYER: We do, Mr. President.
8 We have 65 ter number 3112 - and this is a list that's been
9 distributed - 65 ter 3429, 65 ter 3434, 65 ter 3435, 65 ter 3442, 65 ter
10 3459, and 65 ter 3465.
11 Just based on the redirect examination of Mr. Sarapa, I would
12 also just offer from the bar table a simple NATO map that I had intended
13 to show the witness, but cut out to save time. It's not marked in any
14 fashion. It's up-loaded in e-court. My friends were informed I was
15 going to use it.
16 It's 3463, and it has the coordinates on it that will track to
17 the exhumation report and, I think, will assist the Court with
18 particularly some of the questions that my learned friend Mr. Sarapa just
19 had for the witness. I would just offer that from the bar table as a
20 simple map.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from anyone? No objection.
22 So that is admitted as well, and it will be given a number by our
24 All right. I think we can move to the next witness.
25 In the meantime, for the record, I notice the presence of
1 Ms. Lada Soljan and Mr. Rupert Elderkin in the courtroom.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 Yes. Before we start, there is, in relation to this witness, a
4 motion from the Popovic Defence team, before the addition of certain
5 exhibits, the Rule 65 ter exhibits list, exhibits which relate to the
6 report of this witness.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we have the witness not here, Mr. President?
8 I have a preliminary.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can you accompany him back out of the
10 courtroom, please.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, what's the problem?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I didn't want to interrupt you, Mr. President,
14 because it had to do with the subject you're talking about.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I wasn't aware that you had a preliminary;
16 otherwise, I would have asked you to intervene straight away.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's actually right on the subject you're
18 discussing right now. I don't know if you want to --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Obviously, I mean, I'm raising the motion of
20 the Popovic Defence team precisely because it needs to be decided before
21 we proceed.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And the position on that is I object, in
23 part, to this motion. I object to the expert report, specifically, and
24 let me explain why.
25 This witness, it's my understanding - and I would have preferred
1 to file our objections on this because it's an important topic regarding
2 potential military expertise - however, I have been discussing this
3 witness and this matter with Mr. Zivanovic for a long time now to try to
4 get to the bottom of what this witness was going to be testifying about.
5 And it's only in the last couple of days that we have gotten really some
6 idea of what this is about.
7 We received his expert report on Wednesday, and only in Serbian.
8 We still don't have it in English. Then we've got this filing of
9 yesterday with all these exhibits, but I can briefly outline our
11 It was my understanding this witness was principally called in
12 order to counter a definition that CLSS gave of the term "rukovodjenje."
13 They translated "rukovodjenje" as "control." Mr. Jovanovic had said he
14 felt that "management" was the proper terminology. And it was my
15 understanding that this witness was fluent in English and was going to
16 explain their view on why they thought "management" was the appropriate
17 term instead than "control." You may recall me saying: "Whether it be
18 management or control, the Prosecution is not suggesting either is a
19 command function on the part of a security officer." So it wasn't that
20 kind of an issue.
21 So then we received the 65 ter summary, and it starts off with:
22 "If assignment granted, the expert will explain the main
23 difference between the four B/C/S military concepts "rukovodjenje,"
24 komandovanje, rukovodjenje u strucnom."
25 Thank you. In any event, we can see that as its written down.
1 Then it says, "... from the report of Petar Vuga."
2 Now, this caused me alarm because all these concepts are
3 discussed by Petar Vuga in his report, Petar Vuga being an expert in
4 security affairs. So I don't -- I did not understand why we were getting
5 someone else to talk about someone else's report that also fully defines
7 So then I asked Mr. Zivanovic about that, and he said that he
8 would or he may be discussing -- this witness may be discussing this to
9 put it in context to help with the issue related to translation. So I
10 said, "Okay. As long as it's limited to translation and we're not going
11 off into the expert report of Petar Vuga and all these military concepts,
12 then I would not file anything."
13 Then we see at the next paragraph:
14 "As a fluent B/C/S and English speaker and professor of managing
15 and command at the Military Academy
16 the most appropriate English words that most clearly reflect the
17 above-mentioned four concepts from Vuga's report."
18 Now, it's my understanding we have one concept, "rukovodjenje,"
19 that is in dispute. I'm not aware of any other things that are in
20 dispute. I think "rukovodjenje" is -- I have no objection to this
21 witness dealing with "rukovodjenje" in particular, as to translations.
22 Now, we've been asking for a report to try to confirm whether or
23 not this was truly what was in mind. We received a report in Serbian on
24 Wednesday night. We have gone over that report with our interpreters,
25 and I was shocked to find several references in that report to the
1 authorities and responsibilities of the security officer, which is, of
2 course, Mr. Vuga's report. This is the first time we hear that this
3 witness who is a general, who has a very impressive background from what
4 I've seen, is now going to talk about, at the Nth hour, one of the issues
5 of the case which actually has an effect on the commanders of the case,
6 because they tend to -- the security officers in these situations tend to
7 point to the commander and his responsibilities.
8 So when I saw that, I again spoke to my colleague and said, "What
9 is this?" And he said, "Ah, he was just using that as an example of
10 these terms."
11 So I strongly object to this report coming in, in Serbian, on a
12 Wednesday, that it's now getting into issues of import in this case, that
13 I don't have an English copy of, that could open up the
14 cross-examination, the redirect examination, to all these issues that are
15 really meant for Mr. Vuga. I don't object to this witness talking about
16 the translation of "rukovodjenje," that he feels the term would
17 appropriately be "management."
18 We spoke to him briefly. His English is fair. We agree with him
19 that the term "control" in English, as it's used in NATO terminology,
20 incorporates "management," and is not a term such as "passport control,"
21 or the limited the way in English also.
22 So I don't think we fundamentally have a very big issue with this
23 witness or what he is saying, but what I don't want is for this to amorph
24 into a discussion of major military concepts, and spend the whole rest of
25 the day in an area that this witness was never designed to talk about.
1 So my request to you would be that this witness be limited to the
2 area of the translation issue, on what word he thinks is appropriate for
3 "rukovodjenje" in English. And if he needs to talk about it in some
4 context to help us put it in context, I have no objection to that. But I
5 don't think anyone should be allowed to take him off into other areas of
6 military expertise in a situation where we have not been forewarned, and
7 there is an expert that's going to be here probably the following week
8 that will deal with that.
9 So let's save some time, deal with this specifically, and get
10 this over with today. I don't see any reason why we can't get this done
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
13 Mr. Zivanovic.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 I'd just like to remind my colleague that we filed our summaries
16 regarding this expert witness, and we said that the expert will explain
17 the main differences between four B/C/S military concepts, not just the
18 terms, "rukovodjenje," "komandovanje," "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu,"
19 and "kontrola," from the report of Petar Vuga, who disputes between the
20 Defence and the Prosecution arises when we filed the notice and
21 objections to translation of our military expert report. And we have it
22 in our motions and in response to the Prosecution, in our replies,
23 et cetera, and when the Prosecution asked to change the translation into
25 So it is our position that this expert should clarify not only
1 the words and the meaning of the words, but to put it in military -- in a
2 military context, to explain the differences between these four military
3 concepts, "rukovodjenje," "kontrola," "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu,"
4 and "komandovanje."
5 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear the translation, as translated by CLSS,
6 for those words, because it was not translated. Can you read it again,
7 and then I would like the interpreters to translate it.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Control, command, "control" in
9 the professional respect, and checking or monitoring.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is now the
11 interpreter's interpretation, not the official CLSS translation.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Previous translation continues]... to inform the
13 Trial Chamber in the course of the testimony of this witness, we might
14 have some objections to translation of his testimony. And I'll not put
15 these objections immediately in the transcript, but after I view the
16 transcript, the whole of the transcript, and I'll make these objections.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You all realise that this is very interesting on a
18 Friday afternoon, before lunch, and before the weekend. But what is
19 eating me, actually, my mind, is the following: Isn't Petar Vuga in a --
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, sorry, sorry.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Isn't he in a position to explain these words
22 independently of or in respect of, either way, of the way that they have
23 been translated by CLSS? Why do we need another person to deal with the
24 same terms and concepts, when these four words arise out or you can find
25 in Petar Vuga's report, expert report?
1 JUDGE KWON: Or we can hear him after, if necessary.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, Judge Kwon is making a very good point.
3 Why hear, if at all, Bozidar Forca before Mr. Vuga and not after, if it's
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Our idea is that we have a proper translation of
6 Petar Vuga's report; not just his report, but his testimony as well.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I may. There is no controversy
8 here for this witness to testify. We agree with him that "management" is
9 an appropriate English term to be wrapped up into the term "command and
10 control." We agree with him on that. There is no controversy here.
11 There is no reason to call this fine general. I think the proper term
12 here is "dobra danje."
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That you have been saying throughout in the
14 exchange of motions and replies and whatever that we have had the
15 pleasure of reading over the past month and a half. So I think the
16 Prosecution has made its point already on its position as to the concept
17 of rukovodjenje.
18 JUDGE KWON: What is "dobra danje."
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President. That's goodbye,
20 farewell, and --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Auf Wiedersehen. I suggest that we have --
22 Yes, Mr. Josse.
23 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, it would be our preference for this
24 witness to give evidence at some point in time. I think it's only fair
25 for us to say this: The expert that we propose to call and whose report
1 we have served quotes quite extensively from publications of this
2 witness, Mr. Forca, and we were anxious to ask him one or two questions
3 about that. When we saw that his name was on Mr. Zivanovic's list, we
4 rather relied on that and hoped to explore these issues with him. Our
5 time estimate was 30 minutes, and that's how long we think it's going to
7 If there's some suggestion that he might return after Mr. Vuga,
8 then we'd certainly support that. I'm bound to say that. We'd endorse,
9 with respect, Judge Kwon's suggestion that that might be the more logical
10 way to proceed if the controversy still persists. But we would be
11 anxious to cross-examine him. That's really all I wish to say.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not closing the doors on anyone, either on
13 the Prosecution or on any one of you. That's not what we meant to say.
14 But I think it's pretty much obvious, or it should be pretty much obvious
15 to everyone, that it appears rather strange, on the face of it, in the
16 first place, that someone is brought before another witness to explain
17 the terms or the significance and the import of the terms and concepts
18 that the other witness, that the subsequent witness is going to use or
19 which are incorporated already in his expert report.
20 MR. JOSSE: I'm certainly not going to argue with that.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, what I suggest we do is: We have the break
22 now. We'll give you an opportunity again maybe, Mr. Zivanovic and
23 Mr. McCloskey, to meet and discuss further. In the meantime, we'll have
24 an opportunity to discuss, ourselves, because obviously we haven't seen
25 Mr. Forca's report. We have it, but we don't have it in a language we
1 understand because it hasn't been translated.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll explain it -- oh, sorry.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
4 MR. GOSNELL: I would like to make one additional distinction
5 here, and that is that Professor Forca speaks English; whereas, my
6 understanding is that Mr. Vuga does not necessarily speak English as
7 well. So that may explain the order of presentation of these two
9 And I would also suggest to you, Mr. President, that once we get
10 into a discussion of the terminologically distinctions between these four
11 words, that necessarily starts to implicate other words. And I think
12 that would have been fairly apparent to the Prosecution some time ago,
13 that once you get into a discussion of terminology of this kind, that
14 necessarily is going to implicate other concepts.
15 Now, certainly, given the practicalities of the timing today,
16 there's no doubt that the Prosecution isn't going to be starting its
17 cross-examination until Monday, and that should give them ample time to
18 prepare for this report and cross-examine on it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But we still don't have the report,
20 ourselves, in any case.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's exactly my point. This implicates that,
22 which implicates that, which implicates all the important military issues
23 of this place. Without a proper report, a proper report in English, this
24 is putting the cart before the horse big time. And there's no reason for
25 it because there is no controversy before us, none. We agree on what is
1 being said, and this is a back-doorway of getting in all this discussion
2 support of this general, and we absolutely object to it.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a break --
4 Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll just tell you briefly.
6 Our idea was to bring General Forca to testify just viva voce,
7 without any report, but the Prosecution asked a report at least in B/C/S.
8 And we asked General Forca to make this report in B/C/S, and we provided
9 the Prosecution with this report. And right now, I hear that he has no
10 translation, and he has some objections to such procedure that we
11 provided B/C/S report in written.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we've heard enough --
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And, in addition, I would like if Mr. McCloskey
14 could be very clear. If he accepts that the B/C/S word "rukovodjenje
15 u strucnom pogledu" should be translated as "special management" or
16 "managing," and that the word "kontrola" had to be translated as
17 "control," I agree that for the testimony of the witness is not
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not going to try to replace myself with CLSS.
20 But I have no objection that when we hear these words or when we see them
21 written down, we take into account "management" and we take into account
22 Mr. Vuga's interpretation of what these terms mean. I think that's why I
23 absolutely agree. That's why I say we have no disagreement. CLSS has to
24 pick a word. They can't say two words, and I trust them implicitly on
25 this point.
1 I have no objection to putting those in parentheses on key places
2 and key reports, if that would help. As I say, there's no real
3 difference here, but I don't think we can replace CLSS's interpretation.
4 They have to pick a word. I think they've picked the right word. But
5 the concepts that the general and Vuga talk about, they know about these
6 concepts. We're going to hear their definitions out, and we have no real
7 problems that I know of right now.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
9 We'll have the break now, 25 minutes -- half an hour. Yes. We
10 need more time, half an hour, 30 minutes, and then we'll take it up from
12 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, for the record, I notice that
15 Mr. Ostojic is no longer with us.
16 Before the break, we invited you to possibly meet and see if you
17 could find a solution. From the expressions on your faces, I don't think
18 you have even met.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I would recommend the solution that we
21 spoke of in court, and I think perhaps they would agree with me.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to add anything to that, Mr. Zivanovic,
23 before we --
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
1 So we have discussed and we have come to a conclusion. We are
2 going to tell you what our conclusion is now, in the absence of the
3 witness, but then we will repeat it in his presence so that he
4 understands exactly the parameters within which he needs to limit his
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Our decision is as follows:
8 First, we have decided that Witness Bozidar Forca will be allowed
9 to testify solely on the discreet linguistic issue identified in the
10 65 ter summary; that is, the witness will define the most appropriate
11 English words for the concepts mentioned in the 65 ter summary: That is
12 "rukovodjenje," "komandovanje," "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu," and
14 He is and will not be heard as a military expert in general.
15 Only the viva voce evidence of the witness will be admitted, which means
16 that his written report, which has already been tendered, will not be
17 admitted and, therefore, will be expunged from the records.
18 We also want to make it clear that in explaining these concepts,
19 the witness may give examples, but he should use general examples and not
20 specific parts of the expert report of Mr. Vuga.
21 Last but not least, Mr. Zivanovic, since this gentleman is your
22 witness, as soon as and after you've introduced yourself to him, we
23 require you to explore his linguistic expertise or proficiency in
24 English, if at all. In other words, you need to start with that first,
25 and then we'll proceed following that.
1 So I think our next step is to bring the witness in. I'll
2 explain to him the parameters of his testimony, as limited by us. Yes.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Forca.
5 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And on behalf of the Trial Chamber, I am very
7 pleased to welcome you to this Tribunal.
8 You've been summoned as an expert witness by the Popovic Defence
9 team. And before you start giving evidence, our Rules require that you
10 make a solemn declaration, which is in some domestic jurisdictions
11 equivalent to an oath, to the effect that you'll be speaking the truth,
12 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of the solemn
14 declaration. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn
15 undertaking with us.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: BOZIDAR FORCA
19 [The witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Please take a seat, make yourself comfortable.
21 Now, welcome once more. You would have gathered, in the few
22 seconds that you were in the courtroom earlier on, that there were some
23 preliminary problems relating to your expected expert testimony. We have
24 been discussing, and we have come to a decision which basically
25 delineates parameters regulating your testimony which are different to
1 those that might have been explained to you when you were engaged by the
2 Popovic Defence team and, more recently, when you were asked to draw up a
3 short expert report.
4 May I just tell you straight away that we have decided that we
5 don't need your written expert report, and that your testimony will,
6 therefore, remain simple viva voce testimony of an expert witness.
7 I know, because we have been told, that in preparing for your
8 testimony, you also had in mind specific parts of the expert report of
9 Mr. Vuga. For the purpose of your testimony today, we have decided that
10 you need to forget all about those excerpts from Mr. Vuga's report; and
11 in your testimony, you are not to refer to Mr. Vuga's report, in whole or
12 in part, at any time.
13 Your testimony will, therefore, be limited to the discreet
14 linguistic issues that have been identified by Mr. Zivanovic, lead
15 counsel for Colonel Popovic, in his 65 ter summary. We are talking of
16 four different terms or concepts. You will pardon my pronunciation of
17 these words in Serbian: One is "rukovodjenje." The other one is
18 "komandovanje." The other one is "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu." And
19 the last one is "kontrola."
20 In your testimony, you will need to restrict yourself to defining
21 to us, to the best of your ability, the appropriate corresponding English
22 word for these concepts. You are not being heard and you must not
23 consider yourself here today as a military expert in general.
24 Now, in your explanation to us of the definition of these four
25 concepts, for these four terms, you are, of course, allowed to give
1 examples, but these examples must be general examples; and in giving
2 examples, in other words, you must not refer to any specific part of the
3 expert report of Mr. Vuga.
4 Now, I know, because we have been informed, that you are
5 conversant with both the Serbian language and the English language. If
6 you have any confusion in your mind as to what I have tried to explain to
7 you in simple English terms, please speak out now, after which we then
8 can proceed with your testimony.
9 Have I made myself clear to you? Have I explained the limits
10 that we are more or less establishing regulating your testimony today?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, whatever you said to
12 me is absolutely clear.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm happy to hear that, and Mr. Zivanovic will now
14 be putting some questions to you.
15 Please, Mr. Zivanovic, remember to deal with the first issue that
16 we have indicated to you first and foremost.
17 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Forca. I will not begin with the usual
19 questions that relate to your biography and background; rather, I would
20 start with the question that this Chamber is interested in, and that is
21 your command of the English language.
22 Can you tell us something about that? How well do you speak
23 English, in general? Have you been using it in your practice before, and
24 are you still using it in the course of your work?
25 A. Your Honours, I studied English first at the Military Academy
1 course in the years 2001 and 2002. That is called the School for Foreign
2 Languages, which is attended by officers and civilians employed in the
3 army, for their professional purposes. This course lasted ten months.
4 During the course, in 2002, more precisely in April of that year, I was
5 sent to York, England
6 course. I studied English there as well. I wasn't aware that I should
7 have brought a certificate with me here. I have a Stanac [phoen]
8 certificate 3232.
9 I would like to note that when using the English language in my
10 work as a teacher, we have very good connoisseurs of English and very
11 good teachers of English in our professional area without relying only
12 what we know and how well we speak English.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: If he could tell us what this Stanac certificate
14 3232 is and who issues it, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a certificate issued by
16 St. John College
17 listening, writing, understanding, and conversation. All the attendants
18 of the course have to pass these four criteria. According to their
19 criteria, which are actually NATO criteria, the persons who want to work
20 in NATO staff, they need to have the grade of four 3s and above. This is
21 NATO Standard 6001 when we are talking about linguistic faculties.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You may proceed, Mr. Zivanovic. I'm sorry for that
25 I don't know whether the witness has answered that part of your
1 question, earlier question, as to whether, since he started his studies
2 in the English language, he's had an opportunity to make use of it in his
3 day-to-day or his ordinary work. I don't recall having heard him answer
4 that question.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is my next question, Your Honours.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Forca, tell me, please, in your everyday
7 work, how much do you use the English language? Do you communicate with
8 your counterparts from other armies, and what is the nature of these
10 A. Your Honours, ever since I completed the English course in York
11 that is, in 2002, within my responsibilities, relating primarily to the
12 transformation of military and also the issues that we are discussing
13 today, I attended courses or went on professional visits to
14 English-speaking armed forces. In that respect, I visited the US twice,
15 I went to England
16 in Naples
17 and Bulgaria
18 arranged by representatives of NATO in Serbia, and those were people from
20 In my everyday work, first of all, as a teacher - because I'm the
21 head of the administration of the General Staff, but I also teach in the
22 School for National Defence, and I teach strategy - I use documents
23 written in English; first of all, NATO documents, and specifically
24 individual NATO members' documents.
25 Q. Mr. Forca, I will now ask you to tell me, or you should better
1 tell us this for the record - I don't know if I asked you this - to give
2 us your full name.
3 A. My name is Bozidar Forca.
4 Q. Can you please tell us your date of birth and place of birth?
5 A. I was born on the 8th of January, 1957, in Serbia, in the village
6 of Obrovac, Backa Palanka municipality, which is in the northern part of
8 Q. Can you tell me briefly something about your educational
10 A. After elementary school and secondary school, I completed
11 Military Academy
12 Academy, I upgraded my professional and scientific knowledge by
13 completing my thesis for an MA, which I did in 1994. In 1997, I finished
14 the School for National Defence, which is the highest level of education
15 that can be acquired within the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of
17 In 2003, I submitted a Ph.D. thesis. In addition to that, as I
18 already mentioned, I attended various courses both at home and abroad.
19 Q. Can you tell us, briefly, something about your career, what you
20 did so far and what posts you held?
21 A. My first duty and my first post, in 1979 until 1991, was in the
22 Military Education Centre of the Army of the JNA in Croatia. To all
23 intents and purposes, I actually discharged two duties at the centre.
24 Initially, I was a commander of the students of the Military Technical
25 Academy, and I remained there until 1985. In that year, I was sent to
1 attend a course for commanders, which was held in Sarajevo, in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is the commanders of infantry battalions.
3 The course lasted six months.
4 After that, I was transferred to the Department of Military
5 Subjects within the Military Technical Academy
6 1991, I taught subjects such as tactics and command and control.
7 I was in Croatia
8 we were practically under blockade. After negotiations, we were moved to
10 From 1992 onwards, until the year 2002, I worked at the Institute
11 of the Art of War. This institute has been renamed and is now called The
12 Institute for Strategic Research. I worked as a researcher and was the
13 head of the Department for Strategy. At the same time, I also discharged
14 the duties of deputy director of the institute.
15 In 2000, I was transferred to the staff of the Chief of General
16 Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, where I stayed for two years. I was
17 deputy head of office.
18 I already said that, in 2002, I went to England to attend a
19 course in the English language. And after completing this course, I was
20 transferred to the School for National Defence, where I was the deputy
21 head of the Department for Strategy. I remained in this post until
23 Since July 2005, I have been working in the administration that I
24 still work at. At the time, it was called Development Administration of
25 the General Staff of the SCG Army, which is Serbian and Montenegrin Army.
1 And in line with NATO designations, I had "G5." First of all, I was the
2 head of the Department for Doctrines within this administration. After
3 that, I became the deputy head of the administration. And in
4 December 2006, I was assigned to my present post, which is the head of
5 the Administration for Planning and Development, and that is designation
6 "J5" of the Army of Serbia
7 year, "J5."
8 Q. Can you please repeat which rank were you given last year?
9 A. Major general.
10 Q. One question more about this: Have you ever been in this
11 Tribunal? Have you appeared here in any capacity whatsoever before?
12 A. Yes, I have. I appeared before this Tribunal as a military
13 expert in the Prosecution versus Mrksic, Radic, and Sljivancanin case,
14 and I was on the Defence team of Captain Radic.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Forca, what we expect from you today is to
16 provide for us these four definitions that you have been advised earlier.
17 But before that, can you tell us what, in the Serbian language, these
18 terms mean?
19 A. Your Honours, the notions and terms, and they are linguistic
20 expressions, are extremely important. If you take a general aspect that
21 people can communicate and understand each other, and if you look at it
22 from a professional angle, they are extremely important for an exact and
23 accurate establishment of scientific, social, or other spheres in which
24 human beings are involved. In that sense, according to the theory of
25 logics, in our science, a notion is defined as a perception of an object
1 that we have in mind; not the object itself, but our meditative
2 perception of this object.
3 Speaking of these four particular terms, it is very important
4 that we distinguish the scope of the notion, on the one hand, and the
5 substance of the notion, on the other. The substance particularly
6 implies this perception of an object that can be part of physical or
7 mental reality. For example, I am sitting here on this chair. My
8 perception of the chair is not that it is composed of four legs and other
9 parts, but, rather, that this is part of furniture the purpose of which
10 is for sitting.
11 When determining the substance, it is the basic rule of defining
12 always implies, which in Latin is "genus proximum specifica diferencia,"
13 which means we link a certain notion to a higher gender and then we
14 specify the differences between this one and other notions on this level.
15 I have taken the example of the notion of a chair, linked it to a higher
16 level of furniture, and on this higher level of furniture you have beds,
17 you have tables, you have cupboards, et cetera. A chair differs from
18 these other items is that it is used for sitting. One cannot sit on a
20 On the other hand, the scope of a notion implies, and this is
21 going to be very important when we come to the comparison between command
22 and control, the scope of a notion implies all lower-ranging notions of
23 generality to which this specific notion refers. For example, if we say
24 this notion, the former JNA, the extent of or the expanse of this army
25 includes branches, combat arms, and services; then it can be further
1 fragmented into commands, units, and installations; then you can fragment
2 units further on into corps, brigade, battalions, companies, squads,
3 et cetera. All of these elements are incorporated in the notion of the
4 former Yugoslav People's Army.
5 Q. Can you tell me which methodology is applied in the military
6 theory, or, rather, how does one arrive at a term which signifies a
7 certain notion?
8 A. As I've already said, a word or a term is the linguistic
9 expression of a notion. Now, how does one arrive at such a word? Well,
10 under our theory of the Serbian language and the military theory, you can
11 arrive there in two ways: First, in a scientifically-determined way.
12 We are aware of the fact that not only in the Serbian language,
13 but in other languages as well, there exists the following problem, in
14 scientifically-defining a given word. For that reason, in trying to find
15 the linguistic expressions or terms of a notion, one resorts to
16 conventions, which can have the global, worldwide character.
17 I will give you an illustration. I will not be clarifying the
18 example any further. But in the UN in 1974, "aggression" was defined.
19 Now, how was this done, and what did the term of "aggression" imply? The
20 United Nations adopted Resolution 1133 following numerous discussions.
21 Even at this global level, there is a difficulty in defining a given
23 In order to arrive at a term for a given notion in the military
24 science, we have been using, and we are still using three methods:
25 First, if a word exists in the standard usage or vernacular, then the
1 term, the word that exists is used, such as, for instance, "soldier."
2 Second, through our adopting foreign words, either directly or by
3 adapting them to the Serbian language. Third, directly adopting,
4 literally adopting, a foreign word. For instance, in the Serbian
5 language, the term "dvopek" is used, which is -- or, rather, the word
6 "doppler" is used, which is directly taken from the German language.
7 That is why word formation is not a problem that is experienced only by
8 us, and it is an area that has not been developed enough.
9 Q. I will be moving on to an issue that is more specifically of
10 interest to us.
11 In the theory and practice of the Yugoslav People's Army, which
12 is the subject of our interest, what was the way in which the term
13 "command and control" was used, "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje"?
14 A. Your Honours, when it comes to these two terms, what comes into
15 mind is the legislation; namely, laws, regulations and doctrinary
16 documents such as rules and instructions which were used by the then-JNA.
17 An analysis of these documents - and I know that the ICTY has all these
18 documents, i.e., Law on the All People's Defence, the rules governing
19 corps, the rules governing battalions, companies, and squads - will
20 indicate that these complex terms were used: "Rukovodjenje" and
21 "komandovanje," that is, command and control as a single expression; and
22 that "komandovanje," "command," was used on its own as well, which is
23 something which appears in the rules governing brigades, companies, and
25 Most of the documents used by the then-JNA used this compound
1 expression, "command and control," "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje."
2 Q. To pick up from what you've just said, in what way did the JNA
3 form and use these expressions?
4 A. In answering this question, I will refer to Professor
5 Dr. Branislav Jovanovic, who was one of the leading individuals when it
6 came to the Yugoslav Army's theory. He wrote a document in 1984 which
7 was called "An Introduction into the Control-and-Command Theory."
8 Looking at the genesis and the relationship between the two
9 terms, he established that the notions of control and command,
10 "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," were used interchangeably as synonyms.
11 That was one aspect of it. The other aspect of it was these were two
12 function of the same substance, so that somebody -- while one person
13 would use "rukovodjenje," the other would use "komandovanje." And the
14 third aspect, which he personally agreed with, was that "komandovanje"
15 was a function or a part of "rukovodjenje."
16 If I go back to the legislation and doctrinary documents that
17 I've mentioned, and if we tie this up with what I've just said about the
18 scope or the extent of a given term, we will establish the following:
19 The instructions for the commands and staffs, the rules governing corps,
20 the rules governing battalions, all of them use the syntax as a compound
21 expression; namely, "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje." The instruction
22 for the work of command staffs and the rules governing corps, as terms
23 that are at the lower level of generality and define control and command,
24 we had "planiranje," "plan"; "organizovanje," "organising";
25 "koordinacija," "coordinating"; and "kontrola," which in methodological
1 term is incorrect, that a term which is not as general, for instance,
2 "komandovanje," should appear as a heading in describing something at a
3 lower level.
4 If we look at the rules governing battalions, which also use the
5 compound expression "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," and if we look at
6 the rules governing brigades, which only use the term "komandovanje," we
7 will see that the scope of the two notions is, in fact, the same and
8 comprises the lower-level functions of "planiranje"; "organizovanje";
9 "naredjivanje," in other words, "ordering"; and "kontrola."
10 In that sense, if two different notions have the same scope, then
11 they become synonyms, they are synonyms, which is the case in the case of
12 "komandovanje," which was improperly used by the rules governing
14 In 1982, having realised this problem, a group of military
15 experts tried to distinguish between the notions of "rukovodjenje" and
16 "komandovanje," and produced a document entitled "Certain Issues
17 Concerning Command and Control," "Rukovodjenje and Komandovanje," are
18 within the forces of SFRY. That document was marked as "strictly
19 confidential" at the time. I will not be reading or quoting what the
20 author's military experts wrote about this.
21 They, under the notion of "rukovodjenje," included primarily the
22 aspect of social monitoring, and I'm speaking about the armed forces:
23 Organisation, development, procurement for and organisation, as well as
24 other activities which related to the armed forces.
25 I will be using an English expression for the first time. This
1 could be interpreted as "management," it could be translated as
3 On the other hand, the notion of "komandovanje" was accepted as
4 being used on its own with regard to the three main duties and
5 obligations of an individual; namely, to take a decision, to issue an
6 order in accordance with a decision made, and to control or monitor or
7 follow up on what he has ordered. This distinction had the following
8 bearing on the regulations of the JNA, and that was that the subsequent
9 JNA regulations mostly used the compound expression of "rukovodjenje" and
11 Q. On the basis of your research as an expert on the issue of
12 "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," what is your personal position with
13 regard to these notions, to these terms?
14 A. Your Honours, as I said at the outset, when I look at the
15 relationship between these two notions, I have to start and proceed from
16 the Serbian language from which certain terms were and were not used.
17 This is one aspect of the definition of a notion.
18 In our language, the terms "upravljati" and "rukovoditi" are
19 synonymous. "Rukovodjenje" is seen as "upravlanje" in -- it is more
20 specifically defined as "upravlanje," "managing." "Komandovanje" is not
21 a term that existed in our language. It was a term taken from a foreign
22 language. Words that are associated in the Serbian language, and which
23 would correspond to "komandovanje," are "narediti," "order"; or
24 "naredjivati" as "ordering"; "zapovedati" or "zapovediti," which is the
25 same. At the time, we had Serbo-Croat, so "naredjivati" would be more
1 from the Serbian language and "zapovediti" from the Croatian.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Both mean "order," "to
4 A. So it is not on this basis that we can establish that
5 "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje" are synonymous.
6 The terms "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," as far as their
7 meaning goes, as their substance, they can be defined as a process by
8 which individual commands and units of the JNA are guided in implementing
9 their tasks with a view to achieving their planned objective or goal.
10 That would be the substance of the notion of "rukovodjenje" and
12 Now, the scope of the notion of "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje"
13 would envelope the process functions: "Planning," "planiranje," or
14 "organising," "organizovanje"; and "ordering," "naredjivanje";
15 "coordination," "koordinacija"; and "kontrola."
16 Now, the process of "rukovodjenje" has to be seen from two other
17 angles: One is the process of the work of a Command; and the other the
18 relationship between the process functions, the one that I've mentioned a
19 moment ago, and the so-called departmental functions or activities
20 carried out by a Command.
21 If we look at the process of the work of a Command, it has its
22 customary activities. I will enumerate them now. I don't have the
23 opportunity of making a diagram of them, but I can enumerate them.
24 Once an assignment is received, the following activities ensue at
25 the Command: Studying the assignment, issuing preliminary orders,
1 drafting the plan of work of the Command, the Command's familiarising
2 with the assignment, the basic idea of the commander, conveying the basic
3 idea, situation assessment, submitting of proposals, decision-making,
4 drafting of the plans or documents of a given combat activity, and
5 conveying the information to the subordinates, and, lastly, "kontrola."
6 This is the full process which can be shortened for various reasons.
7 Within this process, the notion of "komandovanje" appears. When
8 the decision has to be taken, when it has to be conveyed to the
9 subordinates, and when it has to be monitored or "kontrolisati." So the
10 process includes the issuing of the order, which is then followed up on
11 the B/C/S term "kontrola."
12 Q. When you say that they control, "kontrola," what do they control?
13 A. The commander controls whether the order issued was implemented
14 or not.
15 Q. I'm sorry. Please go on.
16 A. The command organs, within the process that I've just described,
17 have just one commander. We have one commander; whereas, we have the
18 command organs which do "rukovodjenje," which means that they take part
19 in planning, proposing, coordinating, and implementing the commander's
21 The other aspect of "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje" is the
22 relationship between these process functions, which include planning,
23 organising, and all the way down to "kontrola," and these departmental
24 tasks. All the documents of the units state that the composition of a
25 given unit and the use it will be put to will depend on what the varied
1 composition of the unit is and on the activities discharged by the
2 Command. Depending on the tasks that the Command has to carry out,
3 adequate services, professional services are organised at the Command.
4 If we look at a corps of the land forces, the professional organs
5 of the Command include the staff, logistics organ, organ for the
6 cooperation with socio-political organisations, organ for development and
7 financing, and security organ. They were set up for the purposes of the
8 Command's activities, and these activities can be of those of the Command
9 staff, security, of logistics, political, or legal activities.
10 So what does the "rukovodjenje" of a Command mean? Any activity
11 which falls within these various departments overlaps with the various
12 processes. For instance, the logistic support must be planned,
13 organised, orders must be issued, there must be coordination, and there
14 must be control of its implementation. That is this other relationship
15 within the command-and-control system.
16 Q. In relation to what you've just said about command and control,
17 what would you say is the definition of "strucno rukovodjenje" and
19 A. Your Honours, you'll allow me to start from the latter notion of
20 "kontrola." In the Serbian language, this is a notion or a term which
21 was not contested in any other document in the context of command and
22 control. In all the documents, "kontrola" is one of the functions of
23 command and control.
24 As the instructions for the work of commands and staffs reads,
25 "kontrola" means the process function of "rukovodjenje" and
1 "komandovanje," which establishes the distinction between the values that
2 were planned and the values that were achieved in the process of
3 "kontrola." Therefore, "kontrola" allows to -- one to have an insight
4 into the degree to which certain orders were carried out or certain
5 assignments were carried out by the commands, staffs, units, and
7 "Kontrola" was performed by commanding officers, both commanders
8 and "komandiri," and special -- specially-organised organs of command and
9 control. The method and type of "kontrola" was determined by the
10 commanding officer of a unit.
11 The other notion of "strucno rukovodjenje" does not exist as such
12 in our dictionaries. It was a coined expression.
13 In order to answer the question of what this notion stands for,
14 what we believe it stands for, it is necessary to describe the relations
15 that were valid at the time within control and command, and that are
16 still valid and a part of the command of every unit.
17 In this sense, Your Honours, there existed three types of
18 relations. The first type was the command or line relationship, which
19 was established on the superior/subordinate line; for instance, brigade
20 commander/battalion commander, battalion commander/company commander.
21 The other relationship of the command-and-control relationship is
22 the staff relationship. "Staff relationship" stands for a special method
23 of work of the Command which drafts proposals and submits proposals to
24 the commander in the decision-making process. This relationship existed
25 only on one level, regardless of the unit. Suffice it, that a unit had
1 its command, whether it is a company, battalion, brigade, or a corps. In
2 other words, the commander of that unit of the corps, brigade, or
3 battalion had this line relationship toward his assistants and the chief
4 of staff, and they had this staff relationship vis a vis the commander.
5 There was a third type of a relationship or relationships which
6 were functional relationships, such as, for instance, logistics support,
7 engineers' support, and such like. So these were called "functions."
8 Every Command had an expert or professional organ for these
9 functions. This organ was in a functional relationship with its
10 counterpart at a lower level. For instance, the brigade logistics organ
11 was in a functional relationship with the assistant commander for
12 logistics of a battalion, and in a functional relationship with the unit
13 providing logistics support. A chief of artillery who is, let's say, a
14 member of a staff stands in a functional relationship toward a commander
15 of an artillery unit of a brigade, for instance, because the principle of
16 the singleness of command was in place.
17 Allow me to conclude this topic of these various relationships.
18 This means that "strucno rukovodjenje" --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a minute.
20 Yes, Mr. Elderkin.
21 MR. ELDERKIN: The objections is just that this is getting a long
22 way from what's needed to explain and define the terminology and seems to
23 be explaining the structure of the forces, and in relation to the
24 structure that we're objecting to.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Zivanovic, please.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You have the other microphone off.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. It is not the structure of forces, but
4 just an illustration of this a little bit abstract theory, military
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue and finish, please.
7 Yes, General, the last few questions before we --
8 JUDGE KWON: Let him conclude.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you conclude what you were saying,
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although the notion of "strucno
12 rukovodjenje" did not exist as a specific term, there was "rukovodjenje u
13 strucnom smislu," which means this notion can be regarded in the
14 following light: The professional or expert organs, the "rukovode," what
15 do they do? They engage in "rukovodjenje" of the function that they were
16 given responsibility for, as an expert or professional organ, and they
17 engage in "rukovodjenje" in the professional sense of their subordinate
18 professional organs.
19 "Strucno rukovodjenje" is a narrower term compared to
20 "rukovodjenje" in general, which applies to the entire unit and
21 assignment. So it's a -- it's a narrower term.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm afraid we have to leave it at that for
24 General, we'll see you again on Monday morning. Have a good
25 rest. It's a very complicated subject, yours, and we'll use the weekend
1 to ruminate and inwardly digest the depth of what you've been saying.
2 So we stand adjourned until Monday morning at 9.00. Thank you.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of June,
5 2008, at 9.00 a.m.