Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22514

 1                           Friday, 20 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So, Mr. Registrar, if you could kindly call the

 7     case, please, and good morning to you.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to everyone in the

10     courtroom.  This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin

11     Popovic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  So all the accused are here.  From the Defence

14     teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Lazarevic, and

15     Mr. Haynes.  Already standing, I see Mr. Thayer; and, of course, there's

16     Mr. McCloskey.  The witness is already present.

17             Good morning to you, sir, Mr. Jovanovic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  And I welcome you once more.  You're still

20     testifying pursuant to the solemn declaration that you made the first day

21     when you started giving evidence.

22             So let's proceed.

23                           WITNESS:  ZORAN JOVANOVIC [Resumed]

24                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer.

Page 22515

 1             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

 2     Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

 3             Mr. President, just to give you an idea of my time estimate, I

 4     reduced examination last night, as well to accommodate one new are that

 5     was raised.  There's one area I'd like to address.  I think I should be

 6     able to do that in the 45 minutes that I asked for, and I would ask to be

 7     granted that indulgence based on the approximate time estimate that I

 8     made at the beginning of my examination.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's hear what Mr. Ostojic has to say.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

11             First of all, I would like to know what the new issue is from

12     Mr. Thayer, and just so the Court knows, we've asked the clerk, and they

13     told us that Mr. Thayer has been one hour and 27 minutes on

14     cross-examination, which exceeds it by close to 50 per cent, his

15     estimate, and I don't think that it's fair and reasonable for him to go

16     another 45 minutes.  It was our understanding he was going to go 15

17     minutes, and based on what the Court said on Wednesday, I believe, to --

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Stop, Mr. Ostojic, because I think this is

19     annoying.  This is annoying.  I think you should know your limits as a

20     lawyer, and you know what our prerogatives are, and you know that we use

21     our discretion when it is necessary to use it.  And when it's necessary

22     to allow counsel to proceed, we allow counsel to proceed.  But there is a

23     limit, and let's not start the day like that.

24             Please sit down.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 22516

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please proceed, Mr. Thayer, and try to contain it

 2     as much as you can.

 3             MR. THAYER:  I will, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:  [Continued]

 5        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   When we left off yesterday, we had reviewed Mr. Maric's testimony

 8     in which he recounted going to Snagovo in the early morning hours of

 9     14 July to assist Dragan Jevtic, the Engineering Company commander.  And

10     we heard his testimony about how he linked up there with Ljubo Bojanovic

11     and the large contingent from Doboj.

12             Where we left off, sir, specifically was with the trial testimony

13     of Mr. Bojanovic in the Blagojevic case, and I believe you stated that

14     you were unaware that he testified as a Defence witness for Dragan Jokic

15     in that case; is that correct?  We may have gotten cut off mid-answer.

16        A.   It's correct.  It's true that I didn't know it.

17        Q.   Now, let me go directly to the testimony, which is 65 ter 3135,

18     and we're at page 43 of e-court.

19             If we scroll down to the bottom of the page, Mr. Bojanovic is

20     asked where he spent the night of July 13th, and his answer is:

21             "The night of 13th of July, I slept at the headquarters until

22     2.00 a.m., when I was awakened in order to be given certain tasks that I

23     had to perform."

24             And if we go to the next page, at line 19, Mr. Bojanovic

25     testified that a messenger woke him up and told him that the chief was

Page 22517

 1     waiting for him in the duty operations officer room.  He got dressed and

 2     went to see him.

 3             And if we turn to the next page, which is page 45 of e-court,

 4     Mr. Bojanovic testified that:

 5             "Major Obrenovic ordered me to take a part of our forces, one

 6     reinforced platoon strong plus two Pragas," Praga being an anti-aircraft

 7     two-barrel weapon, 30-millimetre in calibre, "plus one Doboj MUP platoon,

 8     and go to the area of Maricici, a village that is seven to ten kilometres

 9     away from Zvornik.  He told me to leave a part of our forces there in

10     Maricici and take a platoon of civilian police" -- sorry, "a company of

11     civilian police commanded by Captain Zoran Jankovic, and link up the

12     forces taken by then-Captain Maric to the area of Snagovo."

13             Further down at line 21, he testified that:

14             "I left from the barracks in Karakaj with the mentioned units.  I

15     passed through Zvornik.  I came to the sector of Zlatne Vode, and then I

16     took the Maricici road, where I arrived at the Maricici sector.  That is

17     where I left some of the forces, and with the rest I went towards the

18     Snagovo sector where I was supposed to meet up with Captain Maric."

19             And just to move things along, if we go to the next page, at

20     line 13, the question is:

21             "At one point you said that members of the police went with you?"

22             And his answer was:

23             "Yes.  This was a unit that was attached for our assistance.  The

24     unit came from Doboj, and I've told you who the commander was of that

25     unit."

Page 22518

 1             And the question was:

 2             "Was this the person who the next night on the 14th, in the

 3     evening, was captured by the column of the 28th Division?"

 4             Mr. Bojanovic's answer was:

 5             "Yes.  When we met up with Major Maric - actually, Captain

 6     Maric - I had a different task.  This was on the early morning on the

 7     14th.  I informed Captain Maric with this other captain.  And afterwards

 8     I found out that after I left for this other task, that that captain was

 9     captured, the commander of the military police unit from the Doboj MUP."

10             The next question is:

11             "When Obrenovic issued this order to you, did he go with you or

12     did he remain in the command of the Zvornik Brigade?"

13             Mr. Bojanovic said:

14             "I don't know where he was.  I left with the units, so I don't

15     know where he was after that."

16             And the final question is:

17             "Where did you receive this order from Obrenovic?"

18             And the answer was:

19             "On the 14th at 2.00 a.m. in the office of the duty operations

20     officer."

21             That's on the next page.  And if we go to the bottom, we see that

22     Mr. Bojanovic returned to the barracks at approximately 6.00 a.m. that

23     same morning, the morning of the 14th.

24             Now, sir, you no doubt heard that Doboj Platoon commander, Zoran

25     Jankovic, was, in fact, captured by Muslim forces in the afternoon/late

Page 22519

 1     day of 14 July; is that correct?

 2        A.   I heard that he was captured on the 14th of July; however, I

 3     didn't learn it on that day.  It was only later on that I came to know

 4     about it.  I don't know whether it was on the following morning or two

 5     days later that I heard of it.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, do you recall seeing Ljubo Bojanovic in that area in

 7     the early-morning hours of 14 July?

 8        A.   I wasn't able to see him on the 14th of July, because on that

 9     day, in the early-morning hours of that day, I was at Maricici and he was

10     at Snagovo.

11        Q.   Now, let's go back to Mr. Maric's testimony.

12             MR. THAYER:  And if we can have 65 ter 3138 on the screen,

13     please, and that's page 62 of e-court.

14             Actually, if we could go back four pages to page 11599, please.

15     My apologies.  That's page 58 of e-court.  I just wanted to pick up one

16     point.  And if we could actually go to the next page, 11600, page 59, at

17     line 17.

18        Q.   Mr. Maric, sir, testified that in the morning of 14 July, and

19     this is at line 16:

20             "When I was touring the men, I had deployed at certain positions.

21     I saw those two prisoners, and that was when the chief of staff arrived,

22     around 8.00 or 9.00.  I was present when these prisoners were

23     questioned."

24             And the next question is:

25             "And who questioned these prisoners?"

Page 22520

 1             And Mr. Maric replied:

 2             "The chief of staff personally."

 3             And at the bottom of the page, he says:

 4             "I was there while the prisoners were being questioned."

 5             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we go again to page 11602, page 62 of

 6     e-court -- 61.

 7        Q.   At line 4, Mr. Maric testified that:

 8             "In that period, while the prisoners of war were being

 9     questioned, Zoran Jovanovic came, the operations officer from the

10     brigade, and he brought a group of 50 to 60 soldiers as reinforcement.

11     Then, in that period, I noticed two prisoners who had surrendered to the

12     military police.  They were boarded onto a truck.  I also saw a couple of

13     soldiers boarding the truck.  I think that these were two soldiers from

14     the engineers, from Dragan Jevtic's unit, about three or four donors.

15     And I could see a small number of people leaving.  I asked Jevtic, 'Where

16     are you going?  Where are these people going?'  And he said, 'Under

17     Obrenovic's orders, we're leaving.'  Obrenovic was there.  He was about

18     ten metres away from where this was happening."

19             Now, you already told us, sir, that you do recall seeing

20     Mr. Maric while you were at Snagovo.  Do you recall seeing Mr. Jevtic

21     while you were there?

22        A.   Well, I can't remember that because I never did see them.

23        Q.   So is it fair to say, sir, then, that you never saw two members

24     of the Engineering Company being sent back from that area any time on the

25     14th of July?

Page 22521

 1        A.   I wasn't able to see them, because on the 14th of July I had only

 2     just come back to the barracks from Maricici; and between 11.00 and

 3     12.00, I set out again for Maricici and took along a group of soldiers

 4     from Maricici to Snagovo.  I wasn't able to see them at all, because if

 5     they went there, they probably used a vehicle.  I was not able to see

 6     these members of the engineering unit or Maric at all.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we go to the next page, 11603, and that's

 8     page 62 in e-court.

 9        Q.   Towards the bottom of the page, the question is:

10             "And what happened then on the 14th in the evening, in the

11     afternoon?"

12             And the answer was:

13             "After we finished with the prisoners, the chief ordered the unit

14     to organise itself and to start to search the terrain ahead in order to

15     go towards the column that was coming in.  Up until about 1800 hours, the

16     deployment proceeded.  Zoran's men, the military police, they were being

17     deployed, and they began to search the terrain."

18             Now, let me just ask you, sir:  Having heard that portion of the

19     testimony, who do you think the "Zoran" is to whom Mr. Maric was

20     referring?

21        A.   Truth to be told, I don't know which "Zoran" is referred to by

22     Maric here.  I only know that on the 14th, I set out to scour the terrain

23     at around 1400 hours and I ended at 1700 hours, whereupon I pulled up

24     towards Snagovo, where I saw the chief of staff, Obrenovic, and his

25     driver.  In the evening hours, I can tell you for a fact that no terrain

Page 22522

 1     was being searched.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             I'm sorry.  I think if the complete answer is written, maybe it

 5     would help the witness, because on the next page, the reference is also

 6     page 11604, a certain "Zoran," and that's just a completion the answer

 7     that Mr. Thayer read.  I think, in fairness to the witness, it may assist

 8     him in which Zoran this Maric was referring to.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think Mr. Ostojic is right, Mr. Thayer.

10             MR. THAYER:  I'd be happy to, Mr. President.

11        Q.   If we go to the next page, Mr. Maric testified that:

12             "At around 1800 or 1830 hours, we clashed with the column of

13     Muslims.  It was quite an intense clash.  The fighting didn't last very

14     long, perhaps for about half an hour or so or an hour.  Then there was

15     sporadic fire afterwards.  Many of our fighters were killed at that time.

16     There were ones that were captured as well, and you could hear on the

17     radio that the commander, Major Zoran, from the command was captured.  He

18     was the one who had brought the civilian police, the special police from

19     Doboj, and they were asking for a halt of the fire.  The fire was halted

20     later.  We continued to pull out our forces which had dispersed in

21     contact with the enemy, and this pullout went on until quite late into

22     the night, until about 2300 hours."

23             Now, sir, you were in this general area during this time, were

24     you not?

25        A.   I was up there at the time, but I was again at Snagovo roughly

Page 22523

 1     from 1400 hours, when the searches of the terrain started and when we

 2     came to the foot of Velja Glava, and this ended at 1700 hours.  As we

 3     started descending towards Velja Glava, we stopped there because we could

 4     hear shooting from the area of Liplje and Maricici.  Beyond us, a column

 5     of Muslim forces was passing.  We did not engage in combat of any sort.

 6     We didn't exchange fire.  I was with the soldiers who were under the

 7     commander of Zoran, but he wasn't a major, he was a platoon commander.

 8             When this ended, when the column went past us, we decided to pull

 9     out toward the old school building up at Snagovo.  As we reached Snagovo,

10     I saw Obrenovic there, and I spent the night up there at Snagovo.

11             During my stay at Snagovo, during the night that I spent at

12     Snagovo, we did not engage the enemy in combat of any sort.

13        Q.   Okay, sir.  Well, this is precisely why I asked you the question

14     in the way that I did, because now it seems that you're telling us that

15     you, in fact, had police troops under your command on the 14th of July.

16             If I'm reading the transcript, you just said that:

17             "I was with the soldiers who were under the command of Zoran."

18             I think you've been consistent in telling us that on the 14th,

19     when you returned to that area, you were only in the presence and leading

20     soldiers from the Zvornik Brigade.  Which is correct, sir?

21        A.   What did I say?  I said that I was leading the soldiers from the

22     Zvornik Brigade.  The "Zoran" that I'm mentioning was a member of the

23     Zvornik Brigade who had a platoon under his command.  The extent of my

24     contacts with the civilian police was only to take them up at Maricici.

25     The they were not under my command.  They were independently performing

Page 22524

 1     their assignment.  I was merely introducing -- my role was merely to take

 2     them to take up their positions and to return on the 14th, nothing more

 3     than that.  They were not members of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 4             When I took the police forces up there, I returned; and then on

 5     the 14th I went up to Snagovo with the army to link up the line from

 6     Maricici to Snagovo, to fill out the gaps that weren't manned by a single

 7     soldier.  I did as much, and I started the searching of the terrain at

 8     roughly 1400 hours.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, I just want to clarify one thing, based on your answer.

10             Your response to me a few moments ago, that this Zoran was not a

11     major, that he was a platoon commander, was in response to you hearing

12     the testimony from Mr. Maric that you could hear on the radio that the

13     commander, Major Zoran, was captured.  He was the one who had brought the

14     civilian police, the special police from Doboj.  And you just went out of

15     your way to correct me to say that:  "No, no.  That Major Zoran was

16     actually a platoon commander."

17        A.   My apologies.  I said that Major Zoran Jovanovic, which is me,

18     brought the civilian police at Maricici.  I said that I met up with the

19     platoon commander beyond Velja Glava.  He was a member of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.  His name was Zoran.  I don't know what his family name

21     was.  I didn't say that he was Zoran Jovanovic.

22             Zoran Jovanovic brought the police on the 14th at Maricici.  The

23     this is something that I was stating all along.

24        Q.   And the only Zoran that was captured on the 14th was the Doboj

25     Platoon commander, correct, Zoran Jankovic?

Page 22525

 1        A.   I don't know the name of the commander from Doboj, nor can I be

 2     able to say that I received a report on the radio about his capture or

 3     his name.  What I said was that I heard only later that the commander of

 4     the civilian police unit had been captured.  What his name was, I didn't

 5     know.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go to page 11659, which is should

 7     be 118 in e-court, but I think my math is off this morning, so it might

 8     be 119.  It is 118.  Okay.

 9        Q.   Now, if we look at line 9, the question was put to Mr. Maric:

10             "Do you recall telling the investigators when you interviewed in

11     Banja Luka that you had heard Obrenovic on the radio during the day on

12     the 14th of July?"

13             And the answer is:

14             "Yes.  He was in command when the operations began.  He was with

15     us until we began to spread out.  Then I went to the right flank.  I

16     didn't physically see him.  But later when the combat operations started,

17     when we clashed with the enemy, I heard him over the radio, over the

18     radio connection.  And then when I actually came to the Snagovo road, he

19     was already there."

20             The question is:

21             "What time was this when you saw him on the Snagovo road on the

22     14th, roughly?"

23             Answer:

24             "The pullout lasted until about 22 or 2300 hours.  He was up

25     there.  We waited until all of the soldiers pulled out, so that we could

Page 22526

 1     see what the situation was in terms of the numbers."

 2             Then the next question is:

 3             "Okay.  Let me see if this refreshes your recollection.  Well, of

 4     course, you've already testified on the morning of the 14th, you saw him

 5     in the Snagovo area.  In fact, he interrogated some of those prisoners;

 6     correct?"

 7             And Mr. Maric answers.

 8             MR. THAYER:  And this is on the next page at the top, 119 in

 9     e-court:

10        Q.   "I know that he questioned them.  He interrogated them.  After

11     that was finished, he waited for Zoran to come, and then he ordered what

12     he ordered."

13             Now, sir, I put it to you that the "Zoran" that Mr. Maric is

14     referring to here is you.  Is that correct?

15        A.   This is what you are claiming.  However, if he had been waiting

16     for Zoran Jovanovic, then Zoran Jovanovic could only have come after

17     12.00 to the area where I was headed to conduct the scouring of the

18     terrain.

19        Q.   Now, if we just go down quickly to the bottom of this page,

20     Mr. Maric testifies that with respect to Major Obrenovic:

21             " ... I know that immediately prior to the clash with the Muslim

22     forces, I could hear him over the radio.  He commanded throughout the

23     entire operation during the pullout, and then when the truce went into

24     force.  So he was constantly on the radio.  Once I got to the road,

25     physically reached the road, I saw him there.  He was in a vehicle.  By

Page 22527

 1     that time, it was already dark.  When the pullout was completed, it was

 2     already dark, so it was probably quite late."

 3             And, sir, how does this comport with your recollection of seeing

 4     Mr. Obrenovic later in the day of the 14th?

 5        A.   I said earlier that I saw Obrenovic only at around 1800 hours,

 6     or, rather, between 1700 hours and 1900 hours.  I cannot tell you the

 7     precise time but it was towards the evening, because we were pulling out

 8     from below Velja Glava to Snagovo.  I don't know how long the pullout had

 9     lasted, but I only know that once we reached the old school, we were

10     tasked to billet there and to head for the new school, where we spent the

11     night.

12             Only on the morning of the 15th, I was ordered to go back.  I

13     cannot tell you about the other forces.  I know that my part of the unit

14     withdrew towards the evening to Snagovo, let's say, around 1800 or 1900

15     hours.

16        Q.   Now, sir, there is evidence in this case from one of those two

17     Engineering Company members who was sent to Snagovo and then ordered to

18     return to the base, and he testified in the Blagojevic case that he went

19     up there the night of the 13th, going into the 14th, and that he saw

20     Major Obrenovic at Snagovo at about 4.00 a.m. in the morning of 14 July.

21             MR. THAYER:  That's in the testimony of Milos Mitrovic, for the

22     record, which is 65 ter number 2259 admitted pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

23        Q.   Where do you recall being at 4.00 a.m. on the morning of 14 July,

24     sir?

25        A.   I remember that I was in Maricici.

Page 22528

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give me the 65 ter number again?

 2             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Your Honour.  That's 2259, and the

 3     transcript references for that exhibit are 5597 to 5599.

 4             Now, if we could have 65 ter 3465, and if we go to page 34.

 5     I think that's of both the document and of e-court, and if we could go to

 6     the bottom of the page, please.  It's going to be the next page.  I think

 7     the pagination changed when we put it into e-court.

 8             That's it.  If we could go to the bottom of this page, please.

 9        Q.   If we look at page 19, and this is an OTP -- that is an interview

10     conducted by investigators for the Office of the Prosecutor with

11     Mr. Dragan Jevtic on 13 December 1999, and Mr. Jevtic says:

12             "Now it's the 14th.  On 14, in the morning, I don't remember

13     exactly what time was it, one person, one young man arrested was brought

14     there.  I remember he was very young, and that he sat there and ate one

15     kilo of bread right away without anything, just bread.  Major Obrenovic

16     was with him, and they started questioning.  One of the questions was how

17     many people are with them, and then I heard that he said there were 20 or

18     30 coming behind him.  That young man was taken later on for further

19     questioning in the brigade command."

20             And this is page 29 in the B/C/S:

21             "We stayed there until 2.00 in the afternoon.  Then Major

22     Obrenovic told us, to our line and the rest of the soldiers, that we

23     cannot wait for them, that we have to go first, so the movement started.

24     I was at the end."

25             MR. THAYER:  And that's also the next page, and we're there at

Page 22529

 1     page 3422, end of the ERN.

 2        Q.   So we have another person who recalls seeing Major Obrenovic

 3     interrogating a prisoner in the morning of 14 July.

 4             And if we could go back to page 23, I just want to pick up one

 5     thing before we move on, and it will have to be the next page because of

 6     this pagination issue.

 7        Q.   Mr. Jevtic is asked the question:

 8             "Do you remember the code name which was used by Maric for the

 9     purpose, the radio code name?"

10             And his answer was:

11             "Yes, I do remember it, Jasen."

12             Do you recall that code name being used during that period of

13     time, sir?

14        A.   I don't remember that name.

15        Q.   Do you remember any of the code names used during this period of

16     time?

17        A.   These radio names were used on a daily basis and they were

18     changed regularly, so it is difficult for me to tell you and to name

19     these code names to you.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at another document.

21             MR. THAYER:  And this is 65 ter 2231, and the English version is

22     at 2232.

23        Q.   Sir, what I'm going to show you are some excerpts from a notebook

24     maintained by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which recorded tactical

25     intercepts; that is, intercepted radio communications between various VRS

Page 22530

 1     forces.

 2             MR. THAYER:  And if we could have page 9 of the B/C/S first, and

 3     we'll have to see how legible this is on e-court.  We'll have to go up to

 4     ERN ending in 8949, please, and if we could go down a little bit.  Right

 5     there is perfect.

 6        Q.   Sir, can you read that?  Is that okay or do you need the

 7     original?

 8        A.   Well, I'm looking at it.  There is mention here of Ljubo, Jasen,

 9     Sidro, which are meaningless to me, really.

10        Q.   Okay.  Well, you can take my word for it, sir, that this entry in

11     this book is the list of the -- refers to the list of the active

12     frequencies and users on 13 July 1995, Thursday.  That section you just

13     referred to follows a section where the intercept operators are noticing

14     that there's all of a sudden a lot of activity towards the end of the

15     night and early-morning hours of the --

16             JUDGE KWON:  English page.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, exactly.  I think we have got the wrong

18     English.

19             MR. THAYER:  The English should be page 4, Mr. President, at the

20     top.  My apologies.

21             May I proceed, Mr. President?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We're just trying to match the B/C/S with the

23     English.

24             MR. THAYER:  It's not easy with the way it's formatted.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no.  We have done it.

Page 22531

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We were just wondering if the witness was able to

 2     follow.

 3             MR. THAYER:  He went, actually, Your Honour, to the section I was

 4     going to by himself.

 5        Q.   So where we are is there's an entry that reflects a lot of

 6     activity on the radio net in the early-morning hours of the 14th of July;

 7     late night 13, early-morning hours of the 14th.

 8             The line you just looked at reads:

 9             "They informed Lovac."

10             That's the com centre, is that right, or that doesn't ring a bell

11     for you?

12        A.   [No verbal response]

13        Q.   That's okay.  I'll move on, sir:

14             "They informed Lovac about all movements of our troops, Premier,

15     Strsljen," and in parentheses, it says "Ljubo."

16             Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Bojanovic using that code ever,

17     "Strsljen"?

18        A.   I most certainly don't know anything about this.  Each unit was

19     given its own code name.  And if we were to meet, for example, Ljubo and

20     I, I would also have his code name.  However, I cannot tell you exactly

21     who was using which code name.  If it says here that Lovac was to be

22     informed, this probably refers to the brigade command.

23        Q.   Now, then we see there's a reference to Jasen, and we just that

24     was Mr. Maric's code.

25             The final line is:

Page 22532

 1             "Those were attached units that arrived during the night."

 2             Now, if we could go, and this is the last page on the document I

 3     want to refer your attention to, to page 6 of the English and page 12 of

 4     the B/C/S.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go down to the bottom of the page.

 6     Bear with me, please, one moment.

 7             I'm sorry.  We're going to need to go back one page.  And if we

 8     can scroll down, and then pop over to the next page, please, we'll be

 9     looking at the middle of the page on the next page.  There's an entry

10     for -- okay.  If we could just scroll up a little bit.

11        Q.   Sir, do you see the entry that says "Lovac, Lovac 1" towards the

12     top of the page in B/C/S, and this is the top of the page of page 6 in

13     English.  This is from the 14th of July, in the afternoon:

14             "Lovac, Lovac 1.  Check in the base of Zoran Jankovic --" sorry,

15     "Zoran Jovanovic has set off already, and then let me know.  He's leaving

16     just now.  Have him hurry up."

17             This suggests that you were still on the move and that Major

18     Obrenovic was still waiting for you to arrive on the afternoon of the

19     14th of July.  How does that comport with your recollection, sir?

20        A.   I arrived at Snagovo on the 14th of July, after 12.00, so that

21     was actually early afternoon, and we started to scour the terrain at 1400

22     hours.  Those were our orders.

23        Q.   Now, I want to show you P383.

24             On this day, the 14th of July, sir, it's fair to say that the

25     Zvornik Brigade had mobilised virtually every able-bodied person it could

Page 22533

 1     in the brigade to be in the field, to protect the town of Zvornik and the

 2     settlements along the route that the VRS expected the retreating column

 3     of Muslim soldiers and military-aged men to be following; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   The brigade command that mobilised the men, and this is something

 6     that the commander and the drafting office know.  No other person should

 7     know about that; only people who are entrusted with forming the units

 8     were subsequently informed about this.

 9        Q.   Well, sir, my question is a little bit more simple than that.

10     There was an extraordinarily grave threat to the municipality of Zvornik

11     during this period of time, was there not, and that's why all of these

12     units and mixed forces, police and reservists, were being mobilised;

13     isn't that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  There was a serious threat, and the commanders and the

15     command of police and everybody else knew about that.  However, we, who

16     were operations personnel in units, we were not supposed to or we

17     shouldn't have known that.  I do know that there was a great danger.  Why

18     men were mobilised, it was done because it had been established that

19     there was a large number of Muslim men who managed to pull out of

20     Srebrenica and whose intention was to cross over.

21             MR. THAYER:  Now, if we could go to page 8, I hope, in e-court,

22     and this is page 6 of the English.

23        Q.   What I'm showing you, sir, is a page from the barracks duty

24     officer notebook.  Are you familiar with the notebook that was maintained

25     in connection with the situation in the barracks on a daily basis?

Page 22534

 1        A.   Records were kept in the office of the operations duty officer of

 2     all reports received from the positions, and this is called the duty

 3     operations officer's book.

 4        Q.   Yes, sir.  What I'm referring to is a different book that was

 5     referred to as the barracks duty officer book, in which someone was

 6     tasked each day to record the comings and goings of visitors and the

 7     general state of the barracks.  Do you recall such a notebook being

 8     maintained at Standard?

 9        A.   I have never had this hand [as interpreted] in my book -- in my

10     hands, because it was up to other organs to keep this kind of records.

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, if we look at the bottom of the page, sir, do you

12     see the reference --

13             MR. THAYER:  Again, that's page 6 of the English.

14        Q.   If we look at the bottom of page 6 of the English, it says:

15             "A body of troops at the barracks was not counted due to the

16     activities in the field, and practically only operations duty officer and

17     guards were at the barracks."

18             Now, sir, the Trial Chamber's heard a lot of evidence that on the

19     14th of July, that the barracks were virtually empty because everybody

20     was being sent to the terrain.  In fact, we've heard that they even sent

21     the lawyers to the terrain.  So you know they were in trouble if they're

22     sending lawyers to the terrain.

23             Now, would you not expect Major Obrenovic, as a good commander,

24     to be in the field during that day on the 14th of July, as the man in

25     charge of the brigade, because that's where he should be, where the main

Page 22535

 1     effort, the main threat was concentrated?

 2        A.   When I saw Dragan Obrenovic, that was in Snagovo between 1700

 3     hours and 1900 hours; and on that occasion, I received an order from him

 4     at the barracks, on the 14th, to lead the army and to link them up with

 5     our police in order to conduct the search of the terrain.  Then I saw him

 6     on the evening of the 14th in Snagovo.  Since he had a car, he was

 7     mobile.  He could -- he was able to come up there and go down.  I was not

 8     in his escort, and I cannot tell you exactly what his movements were.  I

 9     just told you when and where I saw him.

10        Q.   Well, sir, you just heard that Mr. Maric and Mr. Bojanovic

11     testified about linking up with each other in Maricici.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer, if you could kindly wind up and finish.

13             MR. THAYER:  I'm doing my best, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no.  We'll be calling on you to finish within

15     the next five minutes.

16             MR. THAYER:  Okay.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's it.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Sir, you heard the testimony of Mr. Maric and Mr. Bojanovic about

20     linking up with each other in Maricici in the early-morning hours between

21     the 13th and 14th of July, but neither of those gentlemen mentions seeing

22     you there with the Doboj police at that time.  Do you have an explanation

23     for that, sir?

24        A.   I do.  This is my explanation:  The night between the 13th and

25     the 14th, I spent at Maricici.  The units of Maric and Ljubo Bojanovic,

Page 22536

 1     who they took up there, were not even close to Maricici, because Snagovo

 2     is quite a way from Maricici.  The two are linked only with a trail,

 3     practically, that could be trafficable only by foot and not through -- by

 4     vehicles.  I did not see either Maric or Bojanovic close to Maricici at

 5     all.  It is for them to state whatever they wish to.  I can tell you that

 6     they were not at Maricici.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. THAYER:  If we could quickly go to P0377.

 9        Q.   You were shown yesterday a 19 July daily combat report that

10     referred to members of the 16th Krajina Brigade being present in the zone

11     of responsibility of Commander Pandurevic and the Zvornik Brigade, and

12     about two soldiers who were captured on 13 and eliminated or liquidated.

13             MR. THAYER:  If we look at page 160, and it's also the English

14     page 160.

15        Q.   You'll see a reference to IKM, that is, forward command post,

16     Ljubo reported that men from the 16th Krajina are at trig point 6002 -

17     that's at the very bottom of the page, sir - and that Obrenovic should be

18     informed.

19             Now, you testified yesterday about what was characterized to you

20     as the prevailing practice at the time concerning the treatment of

21     prisoners, and you made a point of saying that it wouldn't make sense if

22     they captured two and executed the rest, because they would have executed

23     everybody if that's what they had wanted to do.  Do you remember that?

24        A.   I do.  That referred to the two that were captured and 13 who

25     were executed.

Page 22537

 1        Q.   Now, perhaps --

 2             MR. THAYER:  Well, we may have a translation issue here, to be

 3     fair to the witness and the record, Mr. President.  The witness said "13

 4     executed."  I just want to ask whether that's what he said or what he

 5     meant.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please.  Yes, go ahead.

 7             MR. THAYER:

 8        Q.   Can you answer the question, sir?

 9             The transcript refers to you answer, saying:

10             "That referred to the two that were captured and 13 who were

11     executed."

12               My question to you, because I want to make sure we get what you

13     say correctly is:  Did you say the 13 that were executed or did you say

14     something else, sir?

15        A.   As far as I remember, the daily combat report referred to two

16     captured and 13 liquidated.  No, I didn't say ever that they were

17     executed.  "Liquidated" meant that in the course of combat, they were

18     liquidated, or that's to say 13.  Two of them probably surrendered

19     themselves, and that's why it was said that they were taken prisoner.

20     No, I didn't say that they were executed.  That meant that you actually

21     captured them and then you shot them.  "Liquidated" means in the course

22     of combat.

23        Q.   Now, sir, the Trial Chamber has heard testimony from a witness

24     who survived an execution near Nezuk.

25             MR. THAYER:  That is PW-139.

Page 22538

 1        Q.   He describes there being with a group of about 20 people who came

 2     under fire, and then watching several of the people he was with being

 3     executed in front of him until he was kept alive, he said, because the

 4     Serb soldiers thought he had value as a soldier for exchange.

 5             Now, I want to show you very quickly 65 ter 3459?

 6             MR. THAYER:  It's page 10 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S,

 7     last paragraph, and if we could just go to the next page, please.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry for the interruption, but this exhibit is

10     not on the list of exhibits.

11             MR. THAYER:  It's on the list that we distributed this morning,

12     and I distributed hard copies to everybody before the decision and

13     specifically advised people of the topic that I would be addressing.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  But please conclude in the next two

15     minutes, Mr. Thayer.

16             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

18             MR. THAYER:

19        Q.   Now, sir, if we can scroll down, please, there is a reference to,

20     "at the site of the village of Krizevici," a location called "Brezjak."

21     There's some coordinates that are given.  Do you see those coordinates,

22     sir, CQ 41.7-22.6?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   Sir, I'll put it to you, and just to save time, I won't show you

25     the maps we've got, but just north of trig point 602, which was reported

Page 22539

 1     as the location of the 16th Krajina Brigade on the 18th, just north of

 2     that location, at those coordinates, a mass grave was exhumed, and the

 3     remains of one of the people who PW-139 testified seeing executed were

 4     recovered from that mass grave, sir.

 5             Now, you testified yesterday about that daily combat report and

 6     what you understood happened that day.  Having heard this information,

 7     that there's been a DNA match putting one of the people that PW-139 said

 8     was with him and executed at this location at Nezuk on the 19th of July,

 9     the day you wrote that daily combat report, does that change your

10     conclusion about what --

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Thayer.

12             Yes, Madame Fauveau.

13             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I'm wrong.

14     Could the Prosecutor tell us the identity of the people who were found in

15     this mass grave, or at least a group identity?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Thank you, Madame Fauveau.

17             Mr. Thayer?

18             MR. THAYER:  I can do that in private session.  It's in evidence,

19     and I can give the name of the one person that I'm referring to.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's go into private session straight away, then,

21     and do that.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22540

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             MR. THAYER:

12        Q.   You testified about what that daily combat report meant, and I'm

13     asking you:  Having heard this information, does that change your

14     understanding of what happened that day and the treatment of prisoners

15     that day, or is it still your position that Muslim prisoners were treated

16     correctly on all occasions that you were aware of?

17        A.   Let me first answer in relation to the daily combat report.

18             A daily combat report is written on the basis of the reports

19     received from the battalion commands, i.e., the subordinate units which

20     were duty-bound on reporting the events and activities of the date.

21             This daily combat report refers to two persons captured and 13

22     killed.  I stand by what I said, that these wounds and deaths were the

23     result of combat.  As far as the treatment of prisoners is concerned,

24     I can tell you what my conduct was in that respect and what I believe was

25     the conduct of the brigade command.  I can't tell what it is, the

Page 22541

 1     treatment.  I only can tell you that I know of the four prisoners that I

 2     sent on to the brigade command.  It was not my duty to deal with that

 3     segment, the treatment and the dealings with the prisoners of war.  I do

 4     believe, however, that this was the treatment accorded to them, the

 5     proper treatment.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7             MR. THAYER:  I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 9             I take it you have a re-examination.  I would imagine so.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  And Mr. Sarapa, do you have a re-examination, too?

12     I can't hear you.

13             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] One question.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's start with Mr. Zivanovic.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

16        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Jovanovic, again.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Let us first clarify certain details that remained unclear with

19     relation to the Doboj police unit.  I will therefore show certain

20     documents to you and ask you to look at them.

21             Let us start with the exhibit shown to you by the Prosecutor,

22     which is document 3138.  He showed you pages 60 and 62, and I will show

23     you page 61.

24             I want to take you to the earlier page, in fact.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the page before this

Page 22542

 1     one, page 60.  My apologies.

 2        Q.   Please look at lines 9 and 10.  Among other things, he says

 3     there:

 4             [In English] "There was a major there as well.  I think his name

 5     was Zoran, who had brought a special unit from Doboj."

 6             [Interpretation] This is my first question:  Did you hold the

 7     rank of major at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   To your knowledge, was there someone else in your unit whose name

10     was Zoran and who had the rank of major?

11        A.   To my knowledge, there was none.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at another

13     Prosecution exhibit, from their list; namely 3430.

14             I don't know if the document has been translated, but I will

15     refer to it only briefly.

16        Q.   Can you conclude that this is an official note of interview --

17     official record of an interview, that the date is the 16th of August,

18     1995, and that it was drafted by the State Security Service in Tuzla?  Do

19     you see that much?

20        A.   You mean in the heading up there?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   I can see that, yes.

23        Q.   The first paragraph states the source, where you have the name of

24     Zoran Jankovic, his personal background, and the second line says:

25             "Active policeman of the Public Security Centre in Doboj, the

Page 22543

 1     Traffic Safety Station in Modrici."

 2             Do you see that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you see next, as part of his personal background, the mention

 5     of any sort of rank?

 6        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]  Let us turn to page 3 of this

 8     document, please.

 9        Q.   Look at the paragraph that was marked by someone earlier on,

10     which says, as part of the CJB Doboj, there is the police -- special

11     purpose police detachment, numbering around 150 men.  Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes.  Although the legibility is quite poor, but I can see the

13     mention of 150 men.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Can we now turn to page 13 of the document.

15        Q.   The second paragraph starts at follows, "On the 13th of July,

16     1995 ... "

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Let me read it out to you:

19             "On the 13th of July, 1995, pursuant to a decision by the chief

20     of the Public Security Station in Doboj, from Jankovic's police station

21     for traffic safety, the following persons were sent out to the Zvornik

22     battlefield."

23             Next follow various names which I will skip, except for the last

24     name, which is that "Zoran Jankovic."  Is that right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22544

 1        Q.   The paragraph below, the first sentence of the paragraph that

 2     follows, states the total of 97 men were deployed to the Zvornik

 3     battlefield from the Doboj CJB.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And we can see that they are from the stations from Doboj,

 6     Derventa, Bosanski Brod, Teslic, and Odzak.  The next sentence reads:

 7             "The commander of this company was Dragan Gavric."

 8             Let me find the relevant part.  Please bear with me until I find

 9     the right passage.

10             The following paragraph talks about what this group that was

11     deployed did on the 14th of July.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just scroll down a bit,

13     please.

14        Q.   And there the platoon commanders who made up the group are

15     mentioned.  Do you see there, in line 3, that the commander of the

16     3rd Platoon was Jankovic?

17        A.   I see that.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Can we look at document 4D394.

19        Q.   This is an order which came from the office of the Ministry of

20     Interior, dated the 13th of July, 1995, sent to several addresses in

21     Doboj.  We have the abbreviation "CBP," "SOP Doboj."  I don't know if you

22     know what these abbreviations stand for.  But since the order is quite

23     short - I don't know if it has been translated or not, I believe it

24     has - it reads:

25             "Form forthwith a reinforced police unit which will be composed

Page 22545

 1     of the 1st Company of the PJP Doboj and elements of the forces of the SOP

 2     Doboj."

 3             The next sentence reads:

 4             "The unit is duty-bound to report to Zvornik during the course of

 5     the day, where it will be given specific assignments.  Upon the

 6     deployment of the unit, a report to that effect should be sent with

 7     reference to the above number."

 8             It's signed by Deputy Minister of the Interior.  I believe the

 9     name is Tomislav Kovac.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just see the signature

11     on the bottom of the page, please.

12             Can we now look at another document, which is 4D399.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are wondering, because you didn't actually ask a

14     question, whether you are combining this document with the next one and

15     then put the question.  I don't know what your intention is.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me put a question to you

17     right away.

18        Q.   Did you see, on the basis of this, from the order of the Ministry

19     of the Interior, that the unit should report on the 13th of July, on the

20     same day when that order was issued in Zvornik?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Tell me, was this physically possible at all, for the unit to

23     reach Zvornik from Doboj by the time you set out for Maricici with a part

24     of the unit?

25        A.   Yes.  It's physically possible because the distance between Doboj

Page 22546

 1     and Zvornik is 100 kilometres.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now look at the document you have on your screen,

 3     which reads -- or, rather, this is the response from the 5th Police

 4     Detachment, as the document says, and the document has a date of the 13th

 5     of July, 1995, which reads:

 6             "Elements of the forces of the 5th Detachment of the SBP Doboj

 7     was deployed to its destination at 1200 hours."

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   The detachment commander signed it.

11             What I'd like to know is whether, on the basis of this, you are

12     able to infer, on the basis of what you know, that this unit did not

13     arrive as a whole to Zvornik.  First one part of this group reached

14     Zvornik, followed by the second?

15        A.   I don't know in how many groups they arrived.

16             Let me just correct what I've said about the distance.  It's a

17     bit over 100 kilometres because you went across Bijeljina and Brcko to

18     reach Zvornik, but it was physically possible to reach Zvornik quite

19     swiftly.  I don't know if the group arrived as a whole or in several

20     batches.  I only know that ...

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the hour?

22        A.   ...  that at that time, this group that I sent over to Maricici

23     arrived.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And also, Mr. Zivanovic, if you could clarify this.

25     In the English page of the document, it says that part of the forces were

Page 22547

 1     sent to the destination, but your question was interpreted as they were

 2     deployed.  So I'm not aware of the nuances.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was quoting the text, which

 4     says part of the forces of the 5th Detachment of the SBJ Doboj was sent

 5     to its destination.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes:  This was the

 7     translation from the original by the interpreter in the booth, since we

 8     don't have the original.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if it was

10     interpreted differently.

11        Q.   But on the basis of this, would you conclude that they set out

12     from Doboj at about 1200 hours?

13        A.   According to this letter, it says that they were sent at

14     1200 hours, which means that they -- that was the time when they left

15     Doboj.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Time for a break, yes.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  How much more do you require, how much more time?

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I believe not less than half an hour.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  And then, Mr. Sarapa, how much time do you require?

20             MR. SARAPA:  Five minutes, no more.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for His Honour.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll have a 25-minute break starting from now.

23     Thank you.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

Page 22548

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jovanovic, at the beginning, I wanted to

 4     present to you all these segments of Maric's testimony, but my learned

 5     colleague beat me to it.  He showed all this to you, and I'm not going to

 6     repeat myself.  I think that the replies that you have given are quite

 7     sufficient in order to interpret this Maric's testimony in a true light.

 8             Let me ask you something different.  I am referring to the code

 9     names that were used on the ground, and I'm specifically referring to

10     tactical intercept.

11             When you went to the terrain, or any other high-ranking officers

12     from the brigade, for that matter, were they accompanied by any person

13     who was taking care that they have communications with the Command and

14     with other parts of the brigade that were on location?

15        A.   Yes.  A communications officer would accompany him.

16        Q.   On the night of the 13th, and on the 14th, 15th and 16th, as you

17     described, did you have a communications officer with you as well?

18        A.   Not on the night of the 13th; but on the 13th and 15th and 16th,

19     I had a communications officer with me in the field.

20        Q.   Tell me now, please -- let us just repeat the dates.  You said,

21     on one of the dates, he wasn't there, and tell us on which dates he was

22     there.  Can you repeat that, please, just to correct the transcript,

23     because there was a slight mistake.

24        A.   On the 14th, when I went on Maricici to search the terrain, and

25     then again on the 15th and 16th.

Page 22549

 1        Q.   You said that you set off on the 14th to Maricici, and there was

 2     another place you mentioned?

 3        A.   Snagovo.

 4        Q.   On the day when you didn't have a communications officer, what

 5     date was that?

 6        A.   That was on the night of the 13th, when I took the police to

 7     Maricici.

 8        Q.   When you want to establish communication with the Command or

 9     other parts of your units, are you doing that personally or is that being

10     done by a communications officer?

11        A.   A communications officer establishes the line.  If I need to

12     speak to the Command, then it is I who speak to them.  If, however, some

13     information has to be passed on, then I tell the communications officer

14     to do it himself.

15        Q.   Does that mean that the communications officer has to be familiar

16     with all the code names applicable to the Command and everybody else that

17     you are communicating with?

18        A.   He has a plan of communications containing all the code names of

19     commands and staffs.

20        Q.   In other words, was it your duty to know which particular code

21     was used by any unit on a particular day, or was it his duty to know

22     that?

23        A.   It was up to the communications officer to know that.

24        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  So it was not your obligation to be

25     familiar with these secret codes assigned to certain parts of units or

Page 22550

 1     individual officers on a particular day?

 2        A.   It was my duty to know them, but I didn't have to have a list of

 3     the names with me.  That was something that the communications officer

 4     had to have with him.

 5        Q.   And, for example, if you asked the communications officer to

 6     connect you to, let's say, Ljubo Bojanovic or somebody else, are you

 7     going to say, "Connect me to Ljubo Bojanovic," or do you have to say,

 8     "Connect me with Pauk, Snail, Wasp," or any other code name?

 9        A.   When I order a communications officer to establish a connection,

10     I can only do so with the persons with whom I have the plan of work, and

11     that is the plan of work for that particular day, and I can only

12     communicate with the persons contained in this plan.

13        Q.   I understand that, but my question was:  How did you tell him the

14     name of the commander?  Would you give him full name or would you give

15     him the code name of the person you wished to call?

16        A.   I don't have to say the code name.  Suffice it to say, "Call the

17     commander."

18        Q.   Can you please now look at the Prosecution Exhibit 3435 that the

19     Prosecutor has shown to you.  It contained a conversation or an

20     intelligence report -- correction.  It's a report on the interview with

21     Dragan Obrenovic, and I would like to ask you a few questions in this

22     respect.

23             You, according to your recollection, you testified here --

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

25             Mr. Thayer.

Page 22551

 1             MR. THAYER:  Just to keep the record clear, Your Honour, this

 2     does not reflect the conversation with Dragan Obrenovic, but with an

 3     attorney representing Dragan Obrenovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.  It might have been

 5     my mistake.  This was a conversation with the lawyer of Dragan Obrenovic,

 6     not Dragan Obrenovic himself.

 7        Q.   According to your recollection, you said that present during this

 8     interview was an American lawyer, an interpreter, and Obrenovic's

 9     brother, and someone else whom you cannot remember.  I would like to ask

10     you:  Do you remember where you met these people?  What kind of building

11     was that?

12        A.   It was in an office near the monument in Zvornik.  As far as

13     I can remember, that used to be a law firm office.  I'm not sure.  But it

14     is right next to the monument in the center of the town.

15        Q.   Do you remember who asked you questions?  Was it our colleague

16     from the United States, through the interpreter, or did someone else ask

17     you questions?  Did you have any direct communication without an

18     interpreter?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, the questions were posed by the

20     American lawyer, and we communicated through the interpreter because my

21     knowledge of English -- of the English language is not sufficient for us

22     to communicate directly.

23        Q.   Do you remember if anyone wrote down your answers or anything

24     that transpired during this conversation?

25        A.   They probably noted it down, but to tell you the truth, I didn't

Page 22552

 1     pay attention to that.  Probably, a record has to be kept if you're

 2     asking someone questions and getting answers from them.

 3        Q.   Do you remember if they offered you to have this conversation

 4     audio-recorded?

 5        A.   I don't think so.

 6        Q.   Do you remember if they proposed to compile a written statement

 7     that you could possibly sign?

 8        A.   Probably, had they made such a proposal, I would have signed this

 9     statement.  I have no reason to hide anything, and I also have no reason

10     not to sign what I say orally.

11        Q.   In this statement, or at least in this conversation as presented

12     to us - you only have an English version in front of you, and I

13     translated it when we did the briefing, and this was also put to you by

14     the Prosecutor - I see that it says that you could not remember who had

15     given you the order to go to Maricici, to Snagovo, et cetera.

16             What I would like to hear is the following:  During the

17     conversation, did the lawyer who questioned you ask you who was the

18     person who was competent to send you there?  I suppose that would be a

19     useful piece of information for him, because it concerns his client.

20        A.   To tell you honestly, I don't remember being asked that question.

21        Q.   Do you know for what reasons were they interested in your

22     movements, where you went in those days?

23        A.   If they were interested in my movements, on whose orders, that

24     was probably the motive for their interest.

25        Q.   During your testimony, you said that you remember these dates and

Page 22553

 1     events by taking the Baljkovica battle and the opening of the corridor as

 2     reference points.  I remember you saying that.  In this conversation, as

 3     interpreted in this document, there is a description of what you were

 4     doing over the course of four days, but we do not have the dates for

 5     these days.

 6             So let us go through these four days, and let us try to

 7     reconstruct the dates from the statement that you gave in 2001 -- excuse

 8     me, not the statement; rather, the conversation that you had with the

 9     Defence counsel of Dragan Obrenovic.

10             I'm going to begin with the first five passages of this report.

11     It contains some general information which I'm not going to ask you

12     about, but let us focus on paragraph 6.  I'm going to read it out to you,

13     because you cannot understand it otherwise:

14             [In English] " One night," he doesn't remember the exact date,

15     "at about 2130 p.m., someone asked him," he doesn't know who, "whether he

16     was willing to go with the civilian police unit to Maricici.  He spent

17     the night there.  In the morning, the next day somebody," he doesn't know

18     who, "from Standard called him to return back to Standard."

19             [Interpretation] Based on this event, can you tell me what

20     particular day this refers to, of all the days that you mention the

21     throughout your testimony?  In other words, the day when you went to

22     Maricici, what was the date?

23        A.   It was the 13th, and the morning was on the 14th.

24        Q.   Now we see a description, an account of your activities on the

25     14th.  That's the remaining part of this page, and it reads as follows:

Page 22554

 1             [In English] "Someone said," he doesn't know by whom, "to get

 2     about 60 to 70 men with him and go to Snagovo."

 3             [Interpretation] I am not going to read all this in order to save

 4     time.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now just move to page 2.

 6        Q.   It says that you reached Snagovo at [In English] "... 14 hours,

 7     and it was then that he first saw Dragan Obrenovic for the first time."

 8             [Interpretation] Therefore, I'm not going to go into details, but

 9     can you tell me, about this particular day, which day is that in your

10     testimony?

11        A.   The 14th.

12        Q.   Let us look at paragraph 4 on this page:

13             [In English] "The next day, in the morning, Jovanovic went to

14     Orahovac.  There was visible traces on the grass showing that the Muslim

15     column had passed along Perunika."

16             [Interpretation] There is no need for me to continue reading.

17     You told us what you did in Orahovac.  Can you tell us which date this

18     was in your testimony?

19        A.   The 15th.

20        Q.   We are now going to skip the next three paragraphs and move on to

21     paragraph 8, which reads:

22             [In English} "There was heavy combat in Baljkovica.  Near

23     Krizevici, they captured four Muslim men.  One of them had a hunting

24     rifle.  These men were interrogated; and after half an hour, at the most,

25     they were sent by TAM truck to the Zvornik Brigade under the escort of

Page 22555

 1     four soldiers."

 2             [Interpretation] And now -- I apologise.  One part of my

 3     quotation is missing, and I'm going to read it again:

 4             [In English] " ...  combat in Baljkovica."

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, no.  I repeat the whole paragraph again.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] This is paragraph 8:

 7             [In English] "The next day there was heavy combat in Baljkovica.

 8     Near Krizevici, they captured four Muslim men.  One of them had a hunting

 9     rifle.  These men were interrogated; and after half hour at the most they

10     were sent by TAM truck to the Zvornik Brigade under the escort of four

11     soldiers."

12             [Interpretation] So now you mentioned the names of two soldiers,

13     and you say the following in the next paragraph:

14             "That day Mrga, [Previous translation continues ...] [In English]

15     "... Baljkovica.  Jovanovic heard that Vinko ordered the opening of the

16     corridor.  The same day he returned to the office in Standard."

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We're missing again the beginning

18     of the quotation; namely, words:

19             "That day Mrga, [In English] one of the Drina Wolves was killed

20     in Baljkovica.  Jovanovic heard that Vinko ordered the opening of the

21     corridor.  The same day he returned to the office in Standard."

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you tell me what date was this, in relation

23     to your testimony?

24        A.   The 16th.

25        Q.   So, when we reconstruct this conversation that you -- that the

Page 22556

 1     representatives of Dragan Obrenovic had with you, can you see any

 2     difference between what was said in this report and what you described to

 3     us here?  I'm focusing only on the dates.  I'm not talking about

 4     Obrenovic or other things.

 5        A.   As far as I can see, there are no discrepancies.

 6        Q.   Neither can I.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Sarapa.

10             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document 377,

11     page 160.  Can we look at the bottom of the page, and can it be enlarged

12     so that the witness can see it properly.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Sarapa:

14        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, the last entry on the bottom of the page says:

15             "Ljubo has informed that from the 16th Krajina are at TT 602, and

16     Obrenovic shall be informed about this."

17             Can you see this?

18        A.   Yes, I can.

19        Q.   What does "TT" stand for, this abbreviation, "TT 602"?

20        A.   That means "trig point."

21        Q.   You mean trig point, you would agree with mean?

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  For the record, this will be corrected at line 18,

24     page 41, it's not a "cross-examination" by Mr. Sarapa, but it's a

25     "re-examination" by Mr. Sarapa.

Page 22557

 1             So please proceed, Mr. Sarapa.

 2             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Does TT point 602, mentioned here, actually indicate Cetino Brdo?

 4        A.   To tell you the truth, I'm not sure.

 5        Q.   You are familiar with the terrain.  How far is Cetino Brdo from

 6     Krizevici, if you know where Cetino Brdo is, and I presume you do?

 7        A.   I know approximately where Cetino Brdo is; but as for the

 8     distance, I cannot tell you exactly.

 9        Q.   Where are Motovo and Motovska Kosa?

10        A.   I have heard of these places, but I don't know exactly where they

11     are.

12             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

13     document that was used by the Prosecution during the examination, and the

14     number is P3459, page 5 in B/C/S and page 10 in English.  Can we please

15     see the bottom of the page.

16        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, please look at the last paragraph, which begins on

17     the location, and can you read it through the first three lines.

18             Have you read it?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] For the record, this is a text which

21     says:

22             "On the locality of the village of Krizevici, hamlet of Zulici,

23     the site called Brezjak, the site where sand is extracted, the location

24     called Kum, owned by Safeta Smajlovic of Motovo, a mass grave was found

25     containing the remains of eight individuals."

Page 22558

 1        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Sarapa, could you please repeat your

 3     question?

 4             The interpreters note that they had a delay because they had to

 5     interpret from the B/C/S text.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  But what does that mean?  Can we proceed?

 7             I suggest you repeat your question, please, Mr. Sarapa.

 8             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is the question:  Is the witness aware of and has the

10     witness heard of Muslims who were killed in Baljkovica having been buried

11     at Motovska Kosa.

12             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] You don't have the witness's answer?

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  We haven't heard him giving any answer.

14             Mr. Jovanovic, you're still reading or what?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was waiting to be told to confirm

16     my answer.  I answered that I was not aware of that.  That was before

17     your intervention.

18             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Let me put another question to you.  Is Motovo close to

20     Krizevici?

21        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's close to Krizevici.  I

22     know the location of Krizevici, but I can't tell you where exactly Motovo

23     is.

24             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

25     questions.

Page 22559

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.

 2             Mr. Jovanovic, we don't have any further questions for you, which

 3     means that you can go.  Your testimony ends here.

 4             On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having

 5     come over to give testimony; and on behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe

 6     journey back home.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's start with the documents.

10             Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We are asking to tender five documents used in

12     re-examination of the witness.  This is Prosecution document 3138, 3430,

13     and 3435, and 4D394 and 4D399.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Thayer, any objection?

15             MR. THAYER:  No objection, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from any of the Defence teams?  None.

17     They are so admitted.

18             Mr. Sarapa, do you have any?

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Just one correction.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  There is -- there is no written in the

22     transcript:  "4D392 and 4D399.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

24             Mr. Registrar, do you have an indication of these documents?  Do

25     you have the details of these documents?  Yes.  Okay.

Page 22560

 1             Mr. Sarapa, do you have any documents to tender?

 2             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] All the documents I've used have

 3     already been admitted:  3D377, 3D --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  You don't need to repeat them if you are not

 5     tendering them.

 6             Mr. Thayer, do you have any documents that you wish to tender?

 7             MR. THAYER:  We do, Mr. President.

 8             We have 65 ter number 3112 - and this is a list that's been

 9     distributed - 65 ter 3429, 65 ter 3434, 65 ter 3435, 65 ter 3442, 65 ter

10     3459, and 65 ter 3465.

11             Just based on the redirect examination of Mr. Sarapa, I would

12     also just offer from the bar table a simple NATO map that I had intended

13     to show the witness, but cut out to save time.  It's not marked in any

14     fashion.  It's up-loaded in e-court.  My friends were informed I was

15     going to use it.

16             It's 3463, and it has the coordinates on it that will track to

17     the exhumation report and, I think, will assist the Court with

18     particularly some of the questions that my learned friend Mr. Sarapa just

19     had for the witness.  I would just offer that from the bar table as a

20     simple map.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection from anyone?  No objection.

22             So that is admitted as well, and it will be given a number by our

23     registrar.

24             All right.  I think we can move to the next witness.

25             In the meantime, for the record, I notice the presence of

Page 22561

 1     Ms. Lada Soljan and Mr. Rupert Elderkin in the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             Yes.  Before we start, there is, in relation to this witness, a

 4     motion from the Popovic Defence team, before the addition of certain

 5     exhibits, the Rule 65 ter exhibits list, exhibits which relate to the

 6     report of this witness.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we have the witness not here, Mr. President?

 8     I have a preliminary.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Can you accompany him back out of the

10     courtroom, please.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, what's the problem?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I didn't want to interrupt you, Mr. President,

14     because it had to do with the subject you're talking about.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I wasn't aware that you had a preliminary;

16     otherwise, I would have asked you to intervene straight away.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's actually right on the subject you're

18     discussing right now.  I don't know if you want to --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  No.  Obviously, I mean, I'm raising the motion of

20     the Popovic Defence team precisely because it needs to be decided before

21     we proceed.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And the position on that is I object, in

23     part, to this motion.  I object to the expert report, specifically, and

24     let me explain why.

25             This witness, it's my understanding - and I would have preferred

Page 22562

 1     to file our objections on this because it's an important topic regarding

 2     potential military expertise - however, I have been discussing this

 3     witness and this matter with Mr. Zivanovic for a long time now to try to

 4     get to the bottom of what this witness was going to be testifying about.

 5     And it's only in the last couple of days that we have gotten really some

 6     idea of what this is about.

 7             We received his expert report on Wednesday, and only in Serbian.

 8     We still don't have it in English.  Then we've got this filing of

 9     yesterday with all these exhibits, but I can briefly outline our

10     position.

11             It was my understanding this witness was principally called in

12     order to counter a definition that CLSS gave of the term "rukovodjenje."

13     They translated "rukovodjenje" as "control."  Mr. Jovanovic had said he

14     felt that "management" was the proper terminology.  And it was my

15     understanding that this witness was fluent in English and was going to

16     explain their view on why they thought "management" was the appropriate

17     term instead than "control."  You may recall me saying:  "Whether it be

18     management or control, the Prosecution is not suggesting either is a

19     command function on the part of a security officer."  So it wasn't that

20     kind of an issue.

21             So then we received the 65 ter summary, and it starts off with:

22             "If assignment granted, the expert will explain the main

23     difference between the four B/C/S military concepts "rukovodjenje,"

24     komandovanje, rukovodjenje u strucnom."

25             Thank you.  In any event, we can see that as its written down.

Page 22563

 1     Then it says, "... from the report of Petar Vuga."

 2             Now, this caused me alarm because all these concepts are

 3     discussed by Petar Vuga in his report, Petar Vuga being an expert in

 4     security affairs.  So I don't -- I did not understand why we were getting

 5     someone else to talk about someone else's report that also fully defines

 6     it.

 7             So then I asked Mr. Zivanovic about that, and he said that he

 8     would or he may be discussing -- this witness may be discussing this to

 9     put it in context to help with the issue related to translation.  So I

10     said, "Okay.  As long as it's limited to translation and we're not going

11     off into the expert report of Petar Vuga and all these military concepts,

12     then I would not file anything."

13             Then we see at the next paragraph:

14             "As a fluent B/C/S and English speaker and professor of managing

15     and command at the Military Academy in Belgrade, the witness will define

16     the most appropriate English words that most clearly reflect the

17     above-mentioned four concepts from Vuga's report."

18             Now, it's my understanding we have one concept, "rukovodjenje,"

19     that is in dispute.  I'm not aware of any other things that are in

20     dispute.  I think "rukovodjenje" is -- I have no objection to this

21     witness dealing with "rukovodjenje" in particular, as to translations.

22             Now, we've been asking for a report to try to confirm whether or

23     not this was truly what was in mind.  We received a report in Serbian on

24     Wednesday night.  We have gone over that report with our interpreters,

25     and I was shocked to find several references in that report to the

Page 22564

 1     authorities and responsibilities of the security officer, which is, of

 2     course, Mr. Vuga's report.  This is the first time we hear that this

 3     witness who is a general, who has a very impressive background from what

 4     I've seen, is now going to talk about, at the Nth hour, one of the issues

 5     of the case which actually has an effect on the commanders of the case,

 6     because they tend to -- the security officers in these situations tend to

 7     point to the commander and his responsibilities.

 8             So when I saw that, I again spoke to my colleague and said, "What

 9     is this?"  And he said, "Ah, he was just using that as an example of

10     these terms."

11             So I strongly object to this report coming in, in Serbian, on a

12     Wednesday, that it's now getting into issues of import in this case, that

13     I don't have an English copy of, that could open up the

14     cross-examination, the redirect examination, to all these issues that are

15     really meant for Mr. Vuga.  I don't object to this witness talking about

16     the translation of "rukovodjenje," that he feels the term would

17     appropriately be "management."

18             We spoke to him briefly.  His English is fair.  We agree with him

19     that the term "control" in English, as it's used in NATO terminology,

20     incorporates "management," and is not a term such as "passport control,"

21     or the limited the way in English also.

22             So I don't think we fundamentally have a very big issue with this

23     witness or what he is saying, but what I don't want is for this to amorph

24     into a discussion of major military concepts, and spend the whole rest of

25     the day in an area that this witness was never designed to talk about.

Page 22565

 1             So my request to you would be that this witness be limited to the

 2     area of the translation issue, on what word he thinks is appropriate for

 3     "rukovodjenje" in English.  And if he needs to talk about it in some

 4     context to help us put it in context, I have no objection to that.  But I

 5     don't think anyone should be allowed to take him off into other areas of

 6     military expertise in a situation where we have not been forewarned, and

 7     there is an expert that's going to be here probably the following week

 8     that will deal with that.

 9             So let's save some time, deal with this specifically, and get

10     this over with today.  I don't see any reason why we can't get this done

11     today.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

13             Mr. Zivanovic.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             I'd just like to remind my colleague that we filed our summaries

16     regarding this expert witness, and we said that the expert will explain

17     the main differences between four B/C/S military concepts, not just the

18     terms, "rukovodjenje," "komandovanje," "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu,"

19     and "kontrola," from the report of Petar Vuga, who disputes between the

20     Defence and the Prosecution arises when we filed the notice and

21     objections to translation of our military expert report.  And we have it

22     in our motions and in response to the Prosecution, in our replies,

23     et cetera, and when the Prosecution asked to change the translation into

24     exhibits.

25             So it is our position that this expert should clarify not only

Page 22566

 1     the words and the meaning of the words, but to put it in military -- in a

 2     military context, to explain the differences between these four military

 3     concepts, "rukovodjenje," "kontrola," "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu,"

 4     and "komandovanje."

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear the translation, as translated by CLSS,

 6     for those words, because it was not translated.  Can you read it again,

 7     and then I would like the interpreters to translate it.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Control, command, "control" in

 9     the professional respect, and checking or monitoring.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This is now the

11     interpreter's interpretation, not the official CLSS translation.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [Previous translation continues]... to inform the

13     Trial Chamber in the course of the testimony of this witness, we might

14     have some objections to translation of his testimony.  And I'll not put

15     these objections immediately in the transcript, but after I view the

16     transcript, the whole of the transcript, and I'll make these objections.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  You all realise that this is very interesting on a

18     Friday afternoon, before lunch, and before the weekend.  But what is

19     eating me, actually, my mind, is the following:  Isn't Petar Vuga in a --

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, sorry, sorry.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Isn't he in a position to explain these words

22     independently of or in respect of, either way, of the way that they have

23     been translated by CLSS?  Why do we need another person to deal with the

24     same terms and concepts, when these four words arise out or you can find

25     in Petar Vuga's report, expert report?

Page 22567

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Or we can hear him after, if necessary.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  I mean, Judge Kwon is making a very good point.

 3     Why hear, if at all, Bozidar Forca before Mr. Vuga and not after, if it's

 4     necessary?

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Our idea is that we have a proper translation of

 6     Petar Vuga's report; not just his report, but his testimony as well.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if I may.  There is no controversy

 8     here for this witness to testify.  We agree with him that "management" is

 9     an appropriate English term to be wrapped up into the term "command and

10     control."  We agree with him on that.  There is no controversy here.

11     There is no reason to call this fine general.  I think the proper term

12     here is "dobra danje."

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  That you have been saying throughout in the

14     exchange of motions and replies and whatever that we have had the

15     pleasure of reading over the past month and a half.  So I think the

16     Prosecution has made its point already on its position as to the concept

17     of rukovodjenje.

18             JUDGE KWON:  What is "dobra danje."

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  That's goodbye,

20     farewell, and --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Auf Wiedersehen.  I suggest that we have --

22             Yes, Mr. Josse.

23             MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, it would be our preference for this

24     witness to give evidence at some point in time.  I think it's only fair

25     for us to say this:  The expert that we propose to call and whose report

Page 22568

 1     we have served quotes quite extensively from publications of this

 2     witness, Mr. Forca, and we were anxious to ask him one or two questions

 3     about that.  When we saw that his name was on Mr. Zivanovic's list, we

 4     rather relied on that and hoped to explore these issues with him.  Our

 5     time estimate was 30 minutes, and that's how long we think it's going to

 6     take.

 7             If there's some suggestion that he might return after Mr. Vuga,

 8     then we'd certainly support that.  I'm bound to say that.  We'd endorse,

 9     with respect, Judge Kwon's suggestion that that might be the more logical

10     way to proceed if the controversy still persists.  But we would be

11     anxious to cross-examine him.  That's really all I wish to say.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not closing the doors on anyone, either on

13     the Prosecution or on any one of you.  That's not what we meant to say.

14     But I think it's pretty much obvious, or it should be pretty much obvious

15     to everyone, that it appears rather strange, on the face of it, in the

16     first place, that someone is brought before another witness to explain

17     the terms or the significance and the import of the terms and concepts

18     that the other witness, that the subsequent witness is going to use or

19     which are incorporated already in his expert report.

20             MR. JOSSE:  I'm certainly not going to argue with that.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, what I suggest we do is:  We have the break

22     now.  We'll give you an opportunity again maybe, Mr. Zivanovic and

23     Mr. McCloskey, to meet and discuss further.  In the meantime, we'll have

24     an opportunity to discuss, ourselves, because obviously we haven't seen

25     Mr. Forca's report.  We have it, but we don't have it in a language we

Page 22569

 1     understand because it hasn't been translated.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'll explain it -- oh, sorry.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  I would like to make one additional distinction

 5     here, and that is that Professor Forca speaks English; whereas, my

 6     understanding is that Mr. Vuga does not necessarily speak English as

 7     well.  So that may explain the order of presentation of these two

 8     witnesses.

 9             And I would also suggest to you, Mr. President, that once we get

10     into a discussion of the terminologically distinctions between these four

11     words, that necessarily starts to implicate other words.  And I think

12     that would have been fairly apparent to the Prosecution some time ago,

13     that once you get into a discussion of terminology of this kind, that

14     necessarily is going to implicate other concepts.

15             Now, certainly, given the practicalities of the timing today,

16     there's no doubt that the Prosecution isn't going to be starting its

17     cross-examination until Monday, and that should give them ample time to

18     prepare for this report and cross-examine on it.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  But we still don't have the report,

20     ourselves, in any case.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's exactly my point.  This implicates that,

22     which implicates that, which implicates all the important military issues

23     of this place.  Without a proper report, a proper report in English, this

24     is putting the cart before the horse big time.  And there's no reason for

25     it because there is no controversy before us, none.  We agree on what is

Page 22570

 1     being said, and this is a back-doorway of getting in all this discussion

 2     support of this general, and we absolutely object to it.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's have a break --

 4             Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'll just tell you briefly.

 6             Our idea was to bring General Forca to testify just viva voce,

 7     without any report, but the Prosecution asked a report at least in B/C/S.

 8     And we asked General Forca to make this report in B/C/S, and we provided

 9     the Prosecution with this report.  And right now, I hear that he has no

10     translation, and he has some objections to such procedure that we

11     provided B/C/S report in written.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I think we've heard enough --

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And, in addition, I would like if Mr. McCloskey

14     could be very clear.  If he accepts that the B/C/S word "rukovodjenje

15     u strucnom pogledu" should be translated as "special management" or

16     "managing," and that the word "kontrola" had to be translated as

17     "control," I agree that for the testimony of the witness is not

18     necessary.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not going to try to replace myself with CLSS.

20     But I have no objection that when we hear these words or when we see them

21     written down, we take into account "management" and we take into account

22     Mr. Vuga's interpretation of what these terms mean.  I think that's why I

23     absolutely agree.  That's why I say we have no disagreement.  CLSS has to

24     pick a word.  They can't say two words, and I trust them implicitly on

25     this point.

Page 22571

 1             I have no objection to putting those in parentheses on key places

 2     and key reports, if that would help.  As I say, there's no real

 3     difference here, but I don't think we can replace CLSS's interpretation.

 4     They have to pick a word.  I think they've picked the right word.  But

 5     the concepts that the general and Vuga talk about, they know about these

 6     concepts.  We're going to hear their definitions out, and we have no real

 7     problems that I know of right now.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 9             We'll have the break now, 25 minutes -- half an hour.  Yes.  We

10     need more time, half an hour, 30 minutes, and then we'll take it up from

11     there.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Now, for the record, I notice that

15     Mr. Ostojic is no longer with us.

16             Before the break, we invited you to possibly meet and see if you

17     could find a solution.  From the expressions on your faces, I don't think

18     you have even met.

19             Yes.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I would recommend the solution that we

21     spoke of in court, and I think perhaps they would agree with me.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to add anything to that, Mr. Zivanovic,

23     before we --

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

Page 22572

 1             So we have discussed and we have come to a conclusion.  We are

 2     going to tell you what our conclusion is now, in the absence of the

 3     witness, but then we will repeat it in his presence so that he

 4     understands exactly the parameters within which he needs to limit his

 5     testimony.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Our decision is as follows:

 8             First, we have decided that Witness Bozidar Forca will be allowed

 9     to testify solely on the discreet linguistic issue identified in the

10     65 ter summary; that is, the witness will define the most appropriate

11     English words for the concepts mentioned in the 65 ter summary:  That is

12     "rukovodjenje," "komandovanje," "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu," and

13     "kontrola."

14             He is and will not be heard as a military expert in general.

15     Only the viva voce evidence of the witness will be admitted, which means

16     that his written report, which has already been tendered, will not be

17     admitted and, therefore, will be expunged from the records.

18             We also want to make it clear that in explaining these concepts,

19     the witness may give examples, but he should use general examples and not

20     specific parts of the expert report of Mr. Vuga.

21             Last but not least, Mr. Zivanovic, since this gentleman is your

22     witness, as soon as and after you've introduced yourself to him, we

23     require you to explore his linguistic expertise or proficiency in

24     English, if at all.  In other words, you need to start with that first,

25     and then we'll proceed following that.

Page 22573

 1             So I think our next step is to bring the witness in.  I'll

 2     explain to him the parameters of his testimony, as limited by us.  Yes.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Forca.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  And on behalf of the Trial Chamber, I am very

 7     pleased to welcome you to this Tribunal.

 8             You've been summoned as an expert witness by the Popovic Defence

 9     team.  And before you start giving evidence, our Rules require that you

10     make a solemn declaration, which is in some domestic jurisdictions

11     equivalent to an oath, to the effect that you'll be speaking the truth,

12     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of the solemn

14     declaration.  Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn

15     undertaking with us.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  BOZIDAR FORCA

19                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please take a seat, make yourself comfortable.

21             Now, welcome once more.  You would have gathered, in the few

22     seconds that you were in the courtroom earlier on, that there were some

23     preliminary problems relating to your expected expert testimony.  We have

24     been discussing, and we have come to a decision which basically

25     delineates parameters regulating your testimony which are different to

Page 22574

 1     those that might have been explained to you when you were engaged by the

 2     Popovic Defence team and, more recently, when you were asked to draw up a

 3     short expert report.

 4             May I just tell you straight away that we have decided that we

 5     don't need your written expert report, and that your testimony will,

 6     therefore, remain simple viva voce testimony of an expert witness.

 7             I know, because we have been told, that in preparing for your

 8     testimony, you also had in mind specific parts of the expert report of

 9     Mr. Vuga.  For the purpose of your testimony today, we have decided that

10     you need to forget all about those excerpts from Mr. Vuga's report; and

11     in your testimony, you are not to refer to Mr. Vuga's report, in whole or

12     in part, at any time.

13             Your testimony will, therefore, be limited to the discreet

14     linguistic issues that have been identified by Mr. Zivanovic, lead

15     counsel for Colonel Popovic, in his 65 ter summary.  We are talking of

16     four different terms or concepts.  You will pardon my pronunciation of

17     these words in Serbian:  One is "rukovodjenje."  The other one is

18     "komandovanje."  The other one is "rukovodjenje u strucnom pogledu."  And

19     the last one is "kontrola."

20             In your testimony, you will need to restrict yourself to defining

21     to us, to the best of your ability, the appropriate corresponding English

22     word for these concepts.  You are not being heard and you must not

23     consider yourself here today as a military expert in general.

24             Now, in your explanation to us of the definition of these four

25     concepts, for these four terms, you are, of course, allowed to give

Page 22575

 1     examples, but these examples must be general examples; and in giving

 2     examples, in other words, you must not refer to any specific part of the

 3     expert report of Mr. Vuga.

 4             Now, I know, because we have been informed, that you are

 5     conversant with both the Serbian language and the English language.  If

 6     you have any confusion in your mind as to what I have tried to explain to

 7     you in simple English terms, please speak out now, after which we then

 8     can proceed with your testimony.

 9             Have I made myself clear to you?  Have I explained the limits

10     that we are more or less establishing regulating your testimony today?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, whatever you said to

12     me is absolutely clear.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm happy to hear that, and Mr. Zivanovic will now

14     be putting some questions to you.

15             Please, Mr. Zivanovic, remember to deal with the first issue that

16     we have indicated to you first and foremost.

17                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Forca.  I will not begin with the usual

19     questions that relate to your biography and background; rather, I would

20     start with the question that this Chamber is interested in, and that is

21     your command of the English language.

22             Can you tell us something about that?  How well do you speak

23     English, in general?  Have you been using it in your practice before, and

24     are you still using it in the course of your work?

25        A.   Your Honours, I studied English first at the Military Academy

Page 22576

 1     course in the years 2001 and 2002.  That is called the School for Foreign

 2     Languages, which is attended by officers and civilians employed in the

 3     army, for their professional purposes.  This course lasted ten months.

 4     During the course, in 2002, more precisely in April of that year, I was

 5     sent to York, England, to St. John College, to attend a three-month

 6     course.  I studied English there as well.  I wasn't aware that I should

 7     have brought a certificate with me here.  I have a Stanac [phoen]

 8     certificate 3232.

 9             I would like to note that when using the English language in my

10     work as a teacher, we have very good connoisseurs of English and very

11     good teachers of English in our professional area without relying only

12     what we know and how well we speak English.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  If he could tell us what this Stanac certificate

14     3232 is and who issues it, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a certificate issued by

16     St. John College, based in York, and it includes four disciplines;

17     listening, writing, understanding, and conversation.  All the attendants

18     of the course have to pass these four criteria.  According to their

19     criteria, which are actually NATO criteria, the persons who want to work

20     in NATO staff, they need to have the grade of four 3s and above.  This is

21     NATO Standard 6001 when we are talking about linguistic faculties.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  You may proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.  I'm sorry for that

24     interruption.

25             I don't know whether the witness has answered that part of your

Page 22577

 1     question, earlier question, as to whether, since he started his studies

 2     in the English language, he's had an opportunity to make use of it in his

 3     day-to-day or his ordinary work.  I don't recall having heard him answer

 4     that question.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is my next question, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Forca, tell me, please, in your everyday

 7     work, how much do you use the English language?  Do you communicate with

 8     your counterparts from other armies, and what is the nature of these

 9     contacts?

10        A.   Your Honours, ever since I completed the English course in York,

11     that is, in 2002, within my responsibilities, relating primarily to the

12     transformation of military and also the issues that we are discussing

13     today, I attended courses or went on professional visits to

14     English-speaking armed forces.  In that respect, I visited the US twice,

15     I went to England, and the school in Germany, to Spain, the NATO Command

16     in Naples, to Norway, and the recently-joined countries of NATO, Slovenia

17     and Bulgaria.  I have organised and took part myself in the seminars

18     arranged by representatives of NATO in Serbia, and those were people from

19     Greece, Norway, England, Denmark.

20             In my everyday work, first of all, as a teacher - because I'm the

21     head of the administration of the General Staff, but I also teach in the

22     School for National Defence, and I teach strategy - I use documents

23     written in English; first of all, NATO documents, and specifically

24     individual NATO members' documents.

25        Q.   Mr. Forca, I will now ask you to tell me, or you should better

Page 22578

 1     tell us this for the record - I don't know if I asked you this - to give

 2     us your full name.

 3        A.   My name is Bozidar Forca.

 4        Q.   Can you please tell us your date of birth and place of birth?

 5        A.   I was born on the 8th of January, 1957, in Serbia, in the village

 6     of Obrovac, Backa Palanka municipality, which is in the northern part of

 7     Serbia.

 8        Q.   Can you tell me briefly something about your educational

 9     background?

10        A.   After elementary school and secondary school, I completed

11     Military Academy in Belgrade in 1979.  In addition to the Military

12     Academy, I upgraded my professional and scientific knowledge by

13     completing my thesis for an MA, which I did in 1994.  In 1997, I finished

14     the School for National Defence, which is the highest level of education

15     that can be acquired within the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of

16     Serbia.

17             In 2003, I submitted a Ph.D. thesis.  In addition to that, as I

18     already mentioned, I attended various courses both at home and abroad.

19        Q.   Can you tell us, briefly, something about your career, what you

20     did so far and what posts you held?

21        A.   My first duty and my first post, in 1979 until 1991, was in the

22     Military Education Centre of the Army of the JNA in Croatia.  To all

23     intents and purposes, I actually discharged two duties at the centre.

24     Initially, I was a commander of the students of the Military Technical

25     Academy, and I remained there until 1985.  In that year, I was sent to

Page 22579

 1     attend a course for commanders, which was held in Sarajevo, in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is the commanders of infantry battalions.

 3     The course lasted six months.

 4             After that, I was transferred to the Department of Military

 5     Subjects within the Military Technical Academy.  Until 12th December

 6     1991, I taught subjects such as tactics and command and control.

 7             I was in Croatia when the combat operation started in 1991, and

 8     we were practically under blockade.  After negotiations, we were moved to

 9     Belgrade.

10             From 1992 onwards, until the year 2002, I worked at the Institute

11     of the Art of War.  This institute has been renamed and is now called The

12     Institute for Strategic Research.  I worked as a researcher and was the

13     head of the Department for Strategy.  At the same time, I also discharged

14     the duties of deputy director of the institute.

15             In 2000, I was transferred to the staff of the Chief of General

16     Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, where I stayed for two years.  I was

17     deputy head of office.

18             I already said that, in 2002, I went to England to attend a

19     course in the English language.  And after completing this course, I was

20     transferred to the School for National Defence, where I was the deputy

21     head of the Department for Strategy.  I remained in this post until

22     mid-2005.

23             Since July 2005, I have been working in the administration that I

24     still work at.  At the time, it was called Development Administration of

25     the General Staff of the SCG Army, which is Serbian and Montenegrin Army.

Page 22580

 1     And in line with NATO designations, I had "G5."  First of all, I was the

 2     head of the Department for Doctrines within this administration.  After

 3     that, I became the deputy head of the administration.  And in

 4     December 2006, I was assigned to my present post, which is the head of

 5     the Administration for Planning and Development, and that is designation

 6     "J5" of the Army of Serbia.  I was promoted in to the rank general last

 7     year, "J5."

 8        Q.   Can you please repeat which rank were you given last year?

 9        A.   Major general.

10        Q.   One question more about this:  Have you ever been in this

11     Tribunal?  Have you appeared here in any capacity whatsoever before?

12        A.   Yes, I have.  I appeared before this Tribunal as a military

13     expert in the Prosecution versus Mrksic, Radic, and Sljivancanin case,

14     and I was on the Defence team of Captain Radic.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Forca, what we expect from you today is to

16     provide for us these four definitions that you have been advised earlier.

17     But before that, can you tell us what, in the Serbian language, these

18     terms mean?

19        A.   Your Honours, the notions and terms, and they are linguistic

20     expressions, are extremely important.  If you take a general aspect that

21     people can communicate and understand each other, and if you look at it

22     from a professional angle, they are extremely important for an exact and

23     accurate establishment of scientific, social, or other spheres in which

24     human beings are involved.  In that sense, according to the theory of

25     logics, in our science, a notion is defined as a perception of an object

Page 22581

 1     that we have in mind; not the object itself, but our meditative

 2     perception of this object.

 3             Speaking of these four particular terms, it is very important

 4     that we distinguish the scope of the notion, on the one hand, and the

 5     substance of the notion, on the other.  The substance particularly

 6     implies this perception of an object that can be part of physical or

 7     mental reality.  For example, I am sitting here on this chair.  My

 8     perception of the chair is not that it is composed of four legs and other

 9     parts, but, rather, that this is part of furniture the purpose of which

10     is for sitting.

11             When determining the substance, it is the basic rule of defining

12     always implies, which in Latin is "genus proximum specifica diferencia,"

13     which means we link a certain notion to a higher gender and then we

14     specify the differences between this one and other notions on this level.

15     I have taken the example of the notion of a chair, linked it to a higher

16     level of furniture, and on this higher level of furniture you have beds,

17     you have tables, you have cupboards, et cetera.  A chair differs from

18     these other items is that it is used for sitting.  One cannot sit on a

19     table.

20             On the other hand, the scope of a notion implies, and this is

21     going to be very important when we come to the comparison between command

22     and control, the scope of a notion implies all lower-ranging notions of

23     generality to which this specific notion refers.  For example, if we say

24     this notion, the former JNA, the extent of or the expanse of this army

25     includes branches, combat arms, and services; then it can be further

Page 22582

 1     fragmented into commands, units, and installations; then you can fragment

 2     units further on into corps, brigade, battalions, companies, squads,

 3     et cetera.  All of these elements are incorporated in the notion of the

 4     former Yugoslav People's Army.

 5        Q.   Can you tell me which methodology is applied in the military

 6     theory, or, rather, how does one arrive at a term which signifies a

 7     certain notion?

 8        A.   As I've already said, a word or a term is the linguistic

 9     expression of a notion.  Now, how does one arrive at such a word?  Well,

10     under our theory of the Serbian language and the military theory, you can

11     arrive there in two ways:  First, in a scientifically-determined way.

12             We are aware of the fact that not only in the Serbian language,

13     but in other languages as well, there exists the following problem, in

14     scientifically-defining a given word.  For that reason, in trying to find

15     the linguistic expressions or terms of a notion, one resorts to

16     conventions, which can have the global, worldwide character.

17             I will give you an illustration.  I will not be clarifying the

18     example any further.  But in the UN in 1974, "aggression" was defined.

19     Now, how was this done, and what did the term of "aggression" imply?  The

20     United Nations adopted Resolution 1133 following numerous discussions.

21     Even at this global level, there is a difficulty in defining a given

22     term.

23             In order to arrive at a term for a given notion in the military

24     science, we have been using, and we are still using three methods:

25     First, if a word exists in the standard usage or vernacular, then the

Page 22583

 1     term, the word that exists is used, such as, for instance, "soldier."

 2     Second, through our adopting foreign words, either directly or by

 3     adapting them to the Serbian language.  Third, directly adopting,

 4     literally adopting, a foreign word.  For instance, in the Serbian

 5     language, the term "dvopek" is used, which is -- or, rather, the word

 6     "doppler" is used, which is directly taken from the German language.

 7     That is why word formation is not a problem that is experienced only by

 8     us, and it is an area that has not been developed enough.

 9        Q.   I will be moving on to an issue that is more specifically of

10     interest to us.

11             In the theory and practice of the Yugoslav People's Army, which

12     is the subject of our interest, what was the way in which the term

13     "command and control" was used, "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje"?

14        A.   Your Honours, when it comes to these two terms, what comes into

15     mind is the legislation; namely, laws, regulations and doctrinary

16     documents such as rules and instructions which were used by the then-JNA.

17     An analysis of these documents - and I know that the ICTY has all these

18     documents, i.e., Law on the All People's Defence, the rules governing

19     corps, the rules governing battalions, companies, and squads - will

20     indicate that these complex terms were used:  "Rukovodjenje" and

21     "komandovanje," that is, command and control as a single expression; and

22     that "komandovanje," "command," was used on its own as well, which is

23     something which appears in the rules governing brigades, companies, and

24     squads.

25             Most of the documents used by the then-JNA used this compound

Page 22584

 1     expression, "command and control," "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje."

 2        Q.   To pick up from what you've just said, in what way did the JNA

 3     form and use these expressions?

 4        A.   In answering this question, I will refer to Professor

 5     Dr. Branislav Jovanovic, who was one of the leading individuals when it

 6     came to the Yugoslav Army's theory.  He wrote a document in 1984 which

 7     was called "An Introduction into the Control-and-Command Theory."

 8             Looking at the genesis and the relationship between the two

 9     terms, he established that the notions of control and command,

10     "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," were used interchangeably as synonyms.

11     That was one aspect of it.  The other aspect of it was these were two

12     function of the same substance, so that somebody -- while one person

13     would use "rukovodjenje," the other would use "komandovanje."  And the

14     third aspect, which he personally agreed with, was that "komandovanje"

15     was a function or a part of "rukovodjenje."

16             If I go back to the legislation and doctrinary documents that

17     I've mentioned, and if we tie this up with what I've just said about the

18     scope or the extent of a given term, we will establish the following:

19     The instructions for the commands and staffs, the rules governing corps,

20     the rules governing battalions, all of them use the syntax as a compound

21     expression; namely, "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje."  The instruction

22     for the work of command staffs and the rules governing corps, as terms

23     that are at the lower level of generality and define control and command,

24     we had "planiranje," "plan"; "organizovanje," "organising";

25     "koordinacija," "coordinating"; and "kontrola," which in methodological

Page 22585

 1     term is incorrect, that a term which is not as general, for instance,

 2     "komandovanje," should appear as a heading in describing something at a

 3     lower level.

 4             If we look at the rules governing battalions, which also use the

 5     compound expression "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," and if we look at

 6     the rules governing brigades, which only use the term "komandovanje," we

 7     will see that the scope of the two notions is, in fact, the same and

 8     comprises the lower-level functions of "planiranje"; "organizovanje";

 9     "naredjivanje," in other words, "ordering"; and "kontrola."

10             In that sense, if two different notions have the same scope, then

11     they become synonyms, they are synonyms, which is the case in the case of

12     "komandovanje," which was improperly used by the rules governing

13     brigades.

14             In 1982, having realised this problem, a group of military

15     experts tried to distinguish between the notions of "rukovodjenje" and

16     "komandovanje," and produced a document entitled "Certain Issues

17     Concerning Command and Control," "Rukovodjenje and Komandovanje," are

18     within the forces of SFRY.  That document was marked as "strictly

19     confidential" at the time.  I will not be reading or quoting what the

20     author's military experts wrote about this.

21             They, under the notion of "rukovodjenje," included primarily the

22     aspect of social monitoring, and I'm speaking about the armed forces:

23     Organisation, development, procurement for and organisation, as well as

24     other activities which related to the armed forces.

25             I will be using an English expression for the first time.  This

Page 22586

 1     could be interpreted as "management," it could be translated as

 2     "management."

 3             On the other hand, the notion of "komandovanje" was accepted as

 4     being used on its own with regard to the three main duties and

 5     obligations of an individual; namely, to take a decision, to issue an

 6     order in accordance with a decision made, and to control or monitor or

 7     follow up on what he has ordered.  This distinction had the following

 8     bearing on the regulations of the JNA, and that was that the subsequent

 9     JNA regulations mostly used the compound expression of "rukovodjenje" and

10     "komandovanje."

11        Q.   On the basis of your research as an expert on the issue of

12     "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," what is your personal position with

13     regard to these notions, to these terms?

14        A.   Your Honours, as I said at the outset, when I look at the

15     relationship between these two notions, I have to start and proceed from

16     the Serbian language from which certain terms were and were not used.

17     This is one aspect of the definition of a notion.

18             In our language, the terms "upravljati" and "rukovoditi" are

19     synonymous.  "Rukovodjenje" is seen as "upravlanje" in -- it is more

20     specifically defined as "upravlanje," "managing."  "Komandovanje" is not

21     a term that existed in our language.  It was a term taken from a foreign

22     language.  Words that are associated in the Serbian language, and which

23     would correspond to "komandovanje," are "narediti," "order"; or

24     "naredjivati" as "ordering"; "zapovedati" or "zapovediti," which is the

25     same.  At the time, we had Serbo-Croat, so "naredjivati" would be more

Page 22587

 1     from the Serbian language and "zapovediti" from the Croatian.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Both mean "order," "to

 3     order."

 4        A.   So it is not on this basis that we can establish that

 5     "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje" are synonymous.

 6             The terms "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje," as far as their

 7     meaning goes, as their substance, they can be defined as a process by

 8     which individual commands and units of the JNA are guided in implementing

 9     their tasks with a view to achieving their planned objective or goal.

10     That would be the substance of the notion of "rukovodjenje" and

11     "komandovanje."

12             Now, the scope of the notion of "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje"

13     would envelope the process functions:  "Planning," "planiranje," or

14     "organising," "organizovanje"; and "ordering," "naredjivanje";

15     "coordination," "koordinacija"; and "kontrola."

16             Now, the process of "rukovodjenje" has to be seen from two other

17     angles:  One is the process of the work of a Command; and the other the

18     relationship between the process functions, the one that I've mentioned a

19     moment ago, and the so-called departmental functions or activities

20     carried out by a Command.

21             If we look at the process of the work of a Command, it has its

22     customary activities.  I will enumerate them now.  I don't have the

23     opportunity of making a diagram of them, but I can enumerate them.

24             Once an assignment is received, the following activities ensue at

25     the Command:  Studying the assignment, issuing preliminary orders,

Page 22588

 1     drafting the plan of work of the Command, the Command's familiarising

 2     with the assignment, the basic idea of the commander, conveying the basic

 3     idea, situation assessment, submitting of proposals, decision-making,

 4     drafting of the plans or documents of a given combat activity, and

 5     conveying the information to the subordinates, and, lastly, "kontrola."

 6     This is the full process which can be shortened for various reasons.

 7             Within this process, the notion of "komandovanje" appears.  When

 8     the decision has to be taken, when it has to be conveyed to the

 9     subordinates, and when it has to be monitored or "kontrolisati."  So the

10     process includes the issuing of the order, which is then followed up on

11     the B/C/S term "kontrola."

12        Q.   When you say that they control, "kontrola," what do they control?

13        A.   The commander controls whether the order issued was implemented

14     or not.

15        Q.   I'm sorry.  Please go on.

16        A.   The command organs, within the process that I've just described,

17     have just one commander.  We have one commander; whereas, we have the

18     command organs which do "rukovodjenje," which means that they take part

19     in planning, proposing, coordinating, and implementing the commander's

20     order.

21             The other aspect of "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje" is the

22     relationship between these process functions, which include planning,

23     organising, and all the way down to "kontrola," and these departmental

24     tasks.  All the documents of the units state that the composition of a

25     given unit and the use it will be put to will depend on what the varied

Page 22589

 1     composition of the unit is and on the activities discharged by the

 2     Command.  Depending on the tasks that the Command has to carry out,

 3     adequate services, professional services are organised at the Command.

 4             If we look at a corps of the land forces, the professional organs

 5     of the Command include the staff, logistics organ, organ for the

 6     cooperation with socio-political organisations, organ for development and

 7     financing, and security organ.  They were set up for the purposes of the

 8     Command's activities, and these activities can be of those of the Command

 9     staff, security, of logistics, political, or legal activities.

10             So what does the "rukovodjenje" of a Command mean?  Any activity

11     which falls within these various departments overlaps with the various

12     processes.  For instance, the logistic support must be planned,

13     organised, orders must be issued, there must be coordination, and there

14     must be control of its implementation.  That is this other relationship

15     within the command-and-control system.

16        Q.   In relation to what you've just said about command and control,

17     what would you say is the definition of "strucno rukovodjenje" and

18     "kontrola"?

19        A.   Your Honours, you'll allow me to start from the latter notion of

20     "kontrola."  In the Serbian language, this is a notion or a term which

21     was not contested in any other document in the context of command and

22     control.  In all the documents, "kontrola" is one of the functions of

23     command and control.

24             As the instructions for the work of commands and staffs reads,

25     "kontrola" means the process function of "rukovodjenje" and

Page 22590

 1     "komandovanje," which establishes the distinction between the values that

 2     were planned and the values that were achieved in the process of

 3     "kontrola."  Therefore, "kontrola" allows to -- one to have an insight

 4     into the degree to which certain orders were carried out or certain

 5     assignments were carried out by the commands, staffs, units, and

 6     individuals.

 7             "Kontrola" was performed by commanding officers, both commanders

 8     and "komandiri," and special -- specially-organised organs of command and

 9     control.  The method and type of "kontrola" was determined by the

10     commanding officer of a unit.

11             The other notion of "strucno rukovodjenje" does not exist as such

12     in our dictionaries.  It was a coined expression.

13             In order to answer the question of what this notion stands for,

14     what we believe it stands for, it is necessary to describe the relations

15     that were valid at the time within control and command, and that are

16     still valid and a part of the command of every unit.

17             In this sense, Your Honours, there existed three types of

18     relations.  The first type was the command or line relationship, which

19     was established on the superior/subordinate line; for instance, brigade

20     commander/battalion commander, battalion commander/company commander.

21             The other relationship of the command-and-control relationship is

22     the staff relationship.  "Staff relationship" stands for a special method

23     of work of the Command which drafts proposals and submits proposals to

24     the commander in the decision-making process.  This relationship existed

25     only on one level, regardless of the unit.  Suffice it, that a unit had

Page 22591

 1     its command, whether it is a company, battalion, brigade, or a corps.  In

 2     other words, the commander of that unit of the corps, brigade, or

 3     battalion had this line relationship toward his assistants and the chief

 4     of staff, and they had this staff relationship vis a vis the commander.

 5             There was a third type of a relationship or relationships which

 6     were functional relationships, such as, for instance, logistics support,

 7     engineers' support, and such like.  So these were called "functions."

 8             Every Command had an expert or professional organ for these

 9     functions.  This organ was in a functional relationship with its

10     counterpart at a lower level.  For instance, the brigade logistics organ

11     was in a functional relationship with the assistant commander for

12     logistics of a battalion, and in a functional relationship with the unit

13     providing logistics support.  A chief of artillery who is, let's say, a

14     member of a staff stands in a functional relationship toward a commander

15     of an artillery unit of a brigade, for instance, because the principle of

16     the singleness of command was in place.

17             Allow me to conclude this topic of these various relationships.

18     This means that "strucno rukovodjenje" --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just a minute.

20             Yes, Mr. Elderkin.

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  The objections is just that this is getting a long

22     way from what's needed to explain and define the terminology and seems to

23     be explaining the structure of the forces, and in relation to the

24     structure that we're objecting to.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 22592

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Zivanovic, please.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  You have the other microphone off.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  It is not the structure of forces, but

 4     just an illustration of this a little bit abstract theory, military

 5     theory.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's continue and finish, please.

 7             Yes, General, the last few questions before we --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Let him conclude.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Can you conclude what you were saying,

10     please?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although the notion of "strucno

12     rukovodjenje" did not exist as a specific term, there was "rukovodjenje u

13     strucnom smislu," which means this notion can be regarded in the

14     following light:  The professional or expert organs, the "rukovode," what

15     do they do?  They engage in "rukovodjenje" of the function that they were

16     given responsibility for, as an expert or professional organ, and they

17     engage in "rukovodjenje" in the professional sense of their subordinate

18     professional organs.

19             "Strucno rukovodjenje" is a narrower term compared to

20     "rukovodjenje" in general, which applies to the entire unit and

21     assignment.  So it's a -- it's a narrower term.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  I'm afraid we have to leave it at that for

23     today.

24             General, we'll see you again on Monday morning.  Have a good

25     rest.  It's a very complicated subject, yours, and we'll use the weekend

Page 22593

 1     to ruminate and inwardly digest the depth of what you've been saying.

 2             So we stand adjourned until Monday morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of June,

 5                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.