Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24140

 1                           Monday, 28 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning to you, Madam Registrar, and good

 6     morning, everybody.

 7             Could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             I notice the absence and I want to record the absence of the

12     accused Borovcanin.  Today, all the other accused are present.

13             Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.  I would just like to inform the Trial

15     Chamber that Mr. Borovcanin is not feeling well.  He got ill yesterday,

16     and he couldn't come to the trial for today.  The waiver is on its way,

17     and he is not objecting to -- for the proceedings to continue without his

18     presence.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.  I take your assurance on that.

20             From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Ms. Tapuskovic,

21     Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes.

22             Mr. Nikolic, is Mr. Ostojic having problems?  He was to be back

23     by Monday.  By today, in other words.

24             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am expecting him to arrive

25     in the course of the day.

Page 24141

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 2             For the Prosecution, appearing today is Mr. McCloskey,

 3     accompanied by Mr. Nicholls.

 4             All right.  I understand there are some preliminaries.

 5             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             Good morning.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  As you know, a motion was filed on Friday by the

10     Prosecution requesting that a certain number of Beara witnesses be barred

11     from testifying until additional information had been provided in respect

12     of some of them, and also that disclosure of any prior statements under

13     67(A)(ii) be affected.

14             Now, we rise this morning --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Gosnell.  Sorry for interrupting

16     you like this.  It's not in my style.  But we haven't got a clue as to

17     the motion or its filing, so --

18             MR. GOSNELL:  I apologise.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it that you are better informed than we are.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  I apologise, Mr. President.  I know the Prosecution

21     was burning the midnight oil, literally, and they distributed a courtesy

22     copy.  And I understand it's in the process of being filed, so I

23     understand why it hasn't reached the Bench as yet.

24             In substance, they object -- they filed a motion that they

25     indicated orally they would be filing, and one of the grounds for their

Page 24142

 1     objection to a certain number of the witnesses is failure by the Beara

 2     Defence to disclose all prior statements, as they are obliged to do under

 3     Rule 67(A)(ii).

 4             Now, the reason why we're concerned with this motion and the

 5     reason why we support it in respect of two of the witnesses is that two

 6     of these witnesses do concern our client.  They are very critical

 7     witnesses, potentially, and they may be able to give information that is

 8     adverse to our client.  We don't know yet, because the information in the

 9     65 ter disclosure does not appear adverse, but we have reason to believe,

10     based upon some previous statements, that the Prosecution may exploit

11     some of those previous statements to elicit information that might be

12     adverse.

13             Now, Mr. President, yesterday a proofing note was sent around

14     from the Beara Defence, making reference to a number of statements given

15     by Mr. Jovanovic, and during a proofing session with my colleague,

16     Mr. Jovanovic indicated he had testified before a state court.  We don't

17     have that transcript, and it was never disclosed by the Beara Defence.

18     We understand as well that that transcript is never disclosed to the

19     Prosecution.

20             Now, this is a serious deficiency and causes us very serious

21     prejudice, in light of the fact, Mr. President, that we need to make our

22     choice as to how and whether to cross-examine this witness, without

23     having any idea as to what prior statements this witness has and whether

24     they have been given to the Prosecution, and whether they're going to be

25     used by the Prosecution, and how.

Page 24143

 1             So, Mr. President, that puts us in a very difficult situation.

 2     We're flying blind in a storm.  We don't know what's coming up, and we

 3     ought to have that information.  And so we respectfully request, as the

 4     Prosecution did, that the testimony of these witnesses be adjourned,

 5     delayed, barred, until such time as we have that information.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Nikolic, do you wish to comment?

 9             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as regards the

10     testimony of Miladin Jovanovic, we talked to him on Saturday and

11     yesterday afternoon, and it turned out, on that occasion, that he stated

12     that he had testified before the BH Court.  But in our conversation later

13     on, it was ascertained that we only have his statement that he gave to

14     the investigative organs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so we don't have this

15     statement that he allegedly gave to a BH Court.

16             As we went on in our conversation with him, we realised that he

17     doesn't really distinguish between various organs such as the

18     investigative organs, the court, and the state agency for investigations,

19     so we don't have this testimony.  We don't know where he testified,

20     before what court.  The only thing we do have is the statement that he

21     gave to the investigative organs of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22             In principle, I am not opposed to the delay of his testimony if

23     we were in a position to actually locate those statements and disclose

24     them, because that would be in line with the right of all the accused to

25     the fair trial.  This statement, his statement, was given -- was first

Page 24144

 1     envisaged to be given under Rule 92 bis, but later on when the

 2     Prosecution opposed it, he was called as a live witness.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 4             Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls, I don't know who is taking this up.

 5             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, Mr. President, most of this Mr. Nicholls

 7     will be able to talk to you about.  Mr. Jovanovic is my witness.  This

 8     does have to do with what I said the other day.  This is having a

 9     knock-on effect to the other Defence teams, and my witness is

10     Mr. Jovanovic that's coming up.

11             We have found the audio of the state court that we have.  We're

12     not sure whether we have provided it to anyone at this point.  We

13     normally, even though it's not our witness, we try to get this material

14     out to the Defence, for obvious reasons, and I'm not sure we did or not.

15     We're -- we do have an audio of this guy's state court testimony.  We

16     don't have a transcript of it.

17             And as for any other details regarding the motion, Mr. Nicholls

18     can refer to that.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  In which proceedings did he testify?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This person is always talked about being at the

21     Kravica warehouse, and as everybody is aware, there's a big Kravica trial

22     going on in the state court, and so when we were hustling to find

23     materials for these people, we did get an audio from the state court.

24     I'm not sure when we got it, I'm not sure if we turned it over or not.

25     But he's -- this is a public trial and everyone has equal access to these

Page 24145

 1     folks.  We happened to get it, and we're not sure we gave it to the

 2     folks.  I would trust my colleagues.  If they'd got it, they would have

 3     known they'd got it.  But we do have this audio.  But as for the motion

 4     and the rest of the week, Mr. Nicholls can speak to that, or I can answer

 5     any other questions that you may have.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And my understanding is that

 7     Mr. Jovanovic was supposed to testify immediately after the next witness.

 8     The next witness is Pereula?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  All right.  There are solutions to this

11     problem, in any case.  I mean, we could proceed on the basis of what we

12     have, and he will be recalled, if necessary, later on if there are facts

13     or issues arising from undisclosed hitherto documents.  All right.  But

14     let me -- yes, Mr. Nicholls.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just for your information, Your Honours, I believe

16     the situation is the same for the following witness, Vasovic also a

17     witness who will talk about events at the Kravica warehouse, who also

18     testified in the Kravica trial in the state court.  Same situation, we

19     have found that we have the audio of that testimony.  We don't have a

20     transcript.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  But that guy's name was not brought up by

22     Mr. Gosnell, so I would imagine that the situation is not the same.

23             Mr. Gosnell.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, the reason why I didn't actually

25     make reference to Mr. Vasovic is that we're not sure, frankly.  We don't

Page 24146

 1     know whether there's another statement out there or transcript out there.

 2     We have no idea.  We do know that in respect of Mr. Jovanovic.  And I'm

 3     pleased to hear from my friend that in fact we now know there is a

 4     transcript of his testimony.  So in that sense, Mr. President, yes, the

 5     same issue does arise.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. Nicholls, thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honour, a little more information for

11     you.

12             We did disclose the audio of Perica Vasovic, and I'm still

13     looking for the other witness.  I wouldn't be surprised if it had

14     been routinely, that is, disclosed when it comes in.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  When did you disclose it; do you know?

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  In March of this year.

17             The -- and, you know, and again this is just a problem and effect

18     of the trickle of information we're getting of who's going to say what

19     and when, and I think that's laid out in our motion.

20             I also, when my friend Mr. Gosnell spoke, wanted to tell Your

21     Honours that in our motion we had collectively listed our witnesses for

22     whom we were asking relief.  However, my -- our plan today was to stand

23     up and be ready to go ahead with Vasovic and Jovanovic, based on what

24     we've been doing and working and looking at all the information we have.

25     We do not have transcripts of the audio, but we do have the audio of

Page 24147

 1     Vasovic, which was disclosed.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

 3             Anyway, let's start now.  We need to discuss a little bit further

 4     amongst ourselves.  Let's start with Pereula's testimony, and then we'll

 5     come back to you later on.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. Pereula.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal.  You're about to give

10     evidence, being summoned --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- as a witness by the Defence team of Colonel

13     Beara.  Before you do so, you are required to enter a solemn declaration

14     that you will be testifying the truth.  The text is being forwarded to

15     you now by Madam Usher.  Please read it aloud, and that will be your

16     solemn undertaking with us.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  SPIRO PEREULA

20                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

22             Mr. Nikolic for the Beara Defence team will go first.  He will

23     then be followed on cross-examination by others.

24             Mr. Nikolic.

25             MR. NIKOLIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 24148

 1                           Examination by Mr. Nikolic:

 2        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pereula.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   We've met, but let us do this officially.  Let me first introduce

 5     myself and then make a couple of introductory remarks in order to

 6     facilitate your testimony.

 7             So my name is Predrag Nikolic, and I am Defence counsel in

 8     Ljubisa Beara's Defence team.  I will now ask you to make a pause before

 9     answering, because you have to bear in mind that our conversation is

10     being interpreted and we have to give enough time for the interpreters to

11     do their job.  If you don't do that, this will result in chaos and the

12     transcript will not be accurate.

13        A.   I understand.

14        Q.   Now, could you please introduce yourself to the Court, your full

15     name, date, and place of birth?

16        A.   I'm Spiro Pereula.  I was born on the 10th of November, 1941.  My

17     father's name is Stevo, mother's name is Bozana.  I was born in Brozolica

18     [phoen], Rogatica municipality.

19        Q.   Could you please tell me about your education, and what

20     qualifications do you have?

21        A.   Well, I graduated from the Teachers' High School and then the

22     Teaching Academy, the Faculty of Defence in Sarajevo.  All those schools

23     I completed in Sarajevo.  And I have to note here that I served in the

24     army in Bileca.  That was the Reserve Officers' School.  That was 1962

25     and 1963.  I started in 1962, and this extended into 1963.

Page 24149

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now explain to me briefly your career?

 2     What kind of jobs did you have until the war broke out?

 3        A.   Are you referring to military service or general?

 4        Q.   In general.

 5        A.   Well, first of all, I taught in the Rogatica municipality.  I was

 6     a teacher, because they paid for my education, so I had to work.  And

 7     then in 1963 and in 1964, I worked in Zepa, again as a teacher.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Pereula and Mr. Nikolic, please slow down.  You

 9     are already going pretty fast.  Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  Do I have to repeat

11     my answer?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no, no.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After I paid back my debt to the

14     Rogatica municipality, I moved to Sarajevo, where I worked for seven

15     years as a teacher in the Dositej Obradovic High School.

16             On the 1st of April, 1976, I transferred to the city staff of the

17     Territorial Defence, and then in 1977 I went to Pancevo, where I attended

18     a course for security officers.  After completing that course and after I

19     returned to Sarajevo, I was appointed to the Territorial Defence District

20     Staff in Sarajevo as the security officer or security organ.  I remained

21     there until 1982, when I was transferred to the Republican Staff of the

22     Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I was appointed the

23     assistant chief of security in the Republican Staff of the Territorial

24     Defence.  At that time, it was Colonel Nikola Andjelic.  He was the chief

25     of security.

Page 24150

 1        Q.   Thank you.  When the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 2     where were you?

 3        A.   Well, in 1992, I was in Sarajevo.  I was still at that post in

 4     the Territorial Defence Republican Staff.  When the war broke out, I and

 5     all the other members of Serb, Muslim, Croat ethnicity joined their

 6     ethnic group, so I went to the Main Staff sometime in May 1992.  That was

 7     in Han Pijesak.

 8             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you please tell me, were you deployed in the Main Staff and

10     what were your duties there?

11        A.   When I arrived at the Main Staff in Han Pijesak, I was deployed

12     as the desk officer for security at the Security Administration, which

13     was part of the Intelligence and Security Section.  That was the

14     beginning, and that's when the army was formed, the army of Republika

15     Srpska, including the security service as part of that organisation.

16             It was primarily my job to man the units or to provide the

17     security organs in the units, to train these security organs, and also I

18     dealt with additional counter-intelligence tasks.

19        Q.   You were deployed to the Main Staff Security Administration?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you please tell us about the administration's organisation

22     and who was at the head?

23        A.   At the time in May, when I arrived at the Main Staff of the army

24     of Republika Srpska, by establishment this was the sector for security

25     and intelligence, assignments comprising two administrations, the

Page 24151

 1     Security Administration and the Intelligence Administration.  At the head

 2     of the sector for the intelligence and security jobs was a colonel at the

 3     time, and now his rank is that of general, Zdravko Tolimir.  At the same

 4     time, he headed, at this initial period, the Security Administration,

 5     while the chief of the intelligence section was Colonel Petar Salapura.

 6        Q.   How long were you at the Security Administration of the

 7     Main Staff?

 8        A.   I was there until November 1993.

 9        Q.   And during that period, was Colonel Ljubisa Beara there at the

10     Security Administration?

11        A.   Yes.  Warship Captain Ljubisa Beara to the Main Staff of the army

12     of Republika Srpska at Han Pijesak, came there in November 1992.

13        Q.   And what were his duties at that time?

14        A.   Since Beara was trained as a security person and had a lot of

15     professional experience, he was appointed chief -- or actually at the

16     time, I'm not exactly sure, he was the assistant of the chief of the

17     Sector for Intelligence and Security department, in charge of security

18     and intelligence, so he was actually heading the intelligence sector of

19     the army of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   When you say that he was qualified or that he was trained for

21     this, does that mean that you knew him from before?

22        A.   No, no.  I met Colonel Beara when he came to the Main Staff, but

23     I heard, primarily from Colonel Zdravko Tolimir, that he had been in the

24     security organ in the JNA, in the navy at that time in Split.  And since

25     I also had a lot of experience in security assignments, in contacts and

Page 24152

 1     at meetings and while receiving assignments from Mr. Ljubisa Beara, I

 2     sensed that he had a lot of skill and a good sense for organising the

 3     assignments, and he issued the assignments to me in an expert and

 4     professional way.

 5             I have to emphasise here that in all of our meetings,

 6     Mr. Ljubisa Beara was always warning us, his subordinates, and drawing

 7     our attention that while we carried out our assignments, primarily

 8     counter-intelligence ones, we had to adhere to the rules of the security

 9     organs, the methods and the means of work, as well as all the regulations

10     in the army and in international conventions.

11        Q.   Mr. Pereula, I can see that you did cooperate with Ljubisa Beara.

12     Was he your superior?

13        A.   Yes.  While I was in Crna Rijeka, the Security Administration

14     there, he was my superior officer.

15        Q.   Can you please tell me, what was the attitude of Officer Beara,

16     not only towards you but towards all his subordinate officers, according

17     to what you know?

18        A.   I already said that in meetings of the Security Administration,

19     he had a very professional attitude, issued specific and precise

20     assignments to us, and he had the same attitude towards the subordinate

21     security organs, primarily his immediate subordinates at the level of the

22     corps and then further down, lower-ranking units at the -- in relation to

23     the security chiefs in the corps.

24             During the period that I was in Crna Rijeka, I myself did not

25     have any objections, nor did I hear any from anyone else, in relation to

Page 24153

 1     his work and the assignments that he issued to us.

 2        Q.   Mr. Pereula, when you came to the Main Staff, you said that

 3     Colonel Tolimir was at the head of that sector.  During the time that

 4     Colonel Beara came, was Colonel Tolimir -- just wait, please -- was

 5     Colonel Tolimir the person in charge of that sector at that time also?

 6        A.   Yes.  During the time that I was in Crna Rijeka, there was the

 7     Sector for Intelligence/Security Affairs, and General Tolimir was at the

 8     head of that sector, and Mr. Ljubisa Beara was at the head of the

 9     Security Administration.

10             I have to emphasise here that before you actually asked me about

11     my duties and assignments before Mr. Ljubisa Beara came, I was engaged on

12     jobs to interrogate prisoners of war.  I think this was in May 1992, when

13     we had such people.  So I interrogated --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  We have a problem here.

15             Yes.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry to interrupt.  I'm going to object to

17     non-responsive.  I didn't object before.  The question was:

18             "At this time, was Tolimir in charge of the sector at the time?"

19             And the witness answered that question and is now going on to

20     another topic.  The previous question was:

21             "Did you know Colonel Beara from before?"

22             And the witness then went on to another topic.  So no disrespect

23     to the witness, but if we could keep it question-answer, question-answer.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  But I can't quite understand your

25     point, but at the same time he must have remembered something additional

Page 24154

 1     that he wished to tell us.  So I wouldn't attach too much importance to

 2     it, not to diminish your concerns.  I mean, I don't mean that, but there

 3     is a difference between one case of non-responsive answers and another.

 4             Mr. Nikolic, in the meantime, Mr. Pereula, you should try to

 5     answer the questions that are put to you.  In addition to that, you would

 6     like to add something, will you please tell us first so that we authorise

 7     you to go beyond what was being asked -- what's being asked of you.  All

 8     right?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  I didn't understand what the witness said.

10             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Well, we would just kindly ask you to respond to our questions

12     precisely and we in that way we will cover everything more quickly.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   At the level of the VRS, how was the security service organised,

15     or, rather, the security organs?

16        A.   I already said at the level of the Main Staff, by establishment,

17     there was a security and intelligence sector as part of which there were

18     two administrations, the Security and the Intelligence Administration.

19             At the level of the corps, there were sections for security, and

20     at the level of the brigades, we had the security organs, and --

21        Q.   Please, can you tell me now what the relationship was of these

22     security organs in the lower units, vis a vis the security organs at the

23     Main Staff?

24        A.   Well, the order was known.  The security organs at the levels of

25     brigades, battalions and lower were directly subordinated to the security

Page 24155

 1     chiefs in the corps, and the chiefs of security in the corps were

 2     directly subordinated to the Security Administration, along the

 3     professional line.  Otherwise, the security organs reported for their

 4     work to the commanders of their units.

 5             At the Main Staff level to the chief of staff at the corps level

 6     to the corps commander, at the brigade level to the brigade commanders.

 7     Only in the professional sense, when they performed counter-intelligence

 8     assignments, the superior officers guided the security organs at the

 9     level of the Main Staff, the corps, down to the brigades.

10        Q.   In view of your answers and how you moved in the service, we can

11     see that even before the war, you worked in the security organ, so I

12     assume that you are familiar with the pre-war organisation of these

13     bodies.  So can you please explain, what does it mean that they were

14     subordinated along the professional line?

15        A.   It means that in counter-intelligence work, the organs performing

16     such assignments received instructions and were trained to go to their

17     superior security officer.  But in order to execute the complete

18     assignments, the unit commander knew about this, whether it was a

19     brigade, corps, the Main Staff, and so on and so forth.  So purely

20     professional assignments, in terms of how to actually carry out that

21     task.  The security organs were, in this sense, guided by the superior

22     security organs, but as a whole all the security organs as well as other

23     command organs were subordinated to the commanders.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Pereula, how long were you at the Main Staff

25     security organ?

Page 24156

 1        A.   I said that I was there until November 1993, when I was

 2     transferred to the Defence Ministry, where the Defence Minister issued an

 3     order to appoint me as the security organ at Pale.  The minister at the

 4     time was General Kovacevic.

 5        Q.   Can you please describe your duties that you were carrying out at

 6     the Defence Ministry of Republika Srpska?

 7        A.   When I came to the Defence Ministry, my first assignment was to

 8     organise the security service at the defence ministries.  Since these

 9     ministries did not have the adequate personnel -- security personnel.

10     The security organs were at the level of the Defence ministry.  Then we

11     had the local or district ministries, and then the local ministry Defence

12     sectors, such as Banja Luka and some other places.

13             At the same time, I worked on their professional training and

14     counter-intelligence protection of members of the Defence Ministry.

15             Also, the Defence Ministry was in charge of wartime industries at

16     the time, so it was also my job to provide security for these facilities.

17     And of course we also had security organs located in some of these

18     industrial facilities, in the factories such as Orao and so on.

19        Q.   Mr. Pereula, I'm going to ask you to wait before you give your

20     answer in order for everything to proceed smoothly.

21             You told us what your duties at the Ministry were.  Can you

22     please tell us if there was any cooperation between the Ministry and the

23     Main Staff and the security organs?  And if so, at which levels did this

24     cooperation proceed?

25        A.   Cooperation between the Defence Ministry and the Main Staff

Page 24157

 1     functioned in all segments, including the security service.  However, the

 2     security organs of the Defence Ministry were autonomous in relation to

 3     the security organs of the Main Staff of the VRS.  But when we're talking

 4     about exchange of information, operative information, there was mutual

 5     cooperation.

 6             At the time, the Defence Ministry, among other things, had as its

 7     main assignment and the security of the army of Republika Srpska, and in

 8     that sense the security organs played their role, their particular role,

 9     especially if we keep in mind the wartime industries, the defence

10     industry.

11        Q.   Let us go back to your previous answer, when you spoke about

12     those defence industry plants.  You said that you cooperated with the

13     security organs deployed in those defence industry plants.  What plants

14     are we talking about?

15        A.   Well, the defence industry plants were primarily Pretis in

16     Vogosca, Orao in Rajlovac, the repair and maintenance facility in

17     Hadzici.  There was a plant in Doboj and Kosmos.

18        Q.   What was the relationship between the Ministry and those plants ?

19     Did they have any contacts at all?

20        A.   Well, the cooperation of security organs at the level of the

21     Defence ministries and the security organs in the Republika Srpska army

22     was at the highest level when it came to defence industry, because in the

23     areas of responsibility of the units where those plants were located, the

24     JNA security organs that obtained some intelligence, this is where

25     operational exchange of information was carried out, at the level of the

Page 24158

 1     Defence Ministry and the VRS Main Staff.

 2        Q.   Could you tell me whether, in this period while you were at the

 3     Defence Ministry, did you have direct cooperation with Colonel Beara?

 4        A.   Yes.  I worked with him to the extent that was necessary to

 5     exchange operational information and intelligence obtained by the

 6     security service in the Ministry of Defence and the security service at

 7     the Main Staff, because security organs in the units of the VRS were not

 8     duty-bound to provide information directly to the Ministry of Defence.

 9     What they did was they forwarded this information up the chain of command

10     to the Main Staff, and then at the level of the Defence Ministry and the

11     Main Staff, this information was exchanged.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Pereula, we are now going to deal with another

13     topic.

14             Did you have any knowledge -- were you involved at all in

15     anything that had to do with prisoners of war?

16        A.   Well, this is what I wanted to say.  While I was at the

17     Main Staff, because there was a lack of security organs because the

18     Main Staff -- the staffing level at the Main Staff was maybe 20 to

19     30 per cent of establishment levels, this is why I was involved in

20     questioning prisoners of war.

21             So in 1992, sometime in May, in Han Pijesak, I interrogated

22     Mr. Meho Agic, the commander of the Rogatica Brigade.  He had been

23     captured at Bragolamin [phoen] by the VRS troops.  This interrogation

24     took place in the Han Pijesak police station, in the office of the police

25     commander.  And this man was questioned about the developments, in terms

Page 24159

 1     of war, the strength, goals, and objectives of this unit.

 2             After the interview, Mr. Meho Agic remained in the police station

 3     in Han Pijesak for maybe two days or so, and then he was transferred to

 4     Kula, to the prison there.  It's in Eastern Sarajevo.  And he was later

 5     on exchanged, and nowadays he lives in Sarajevo.

 6        Q.   But do tell me, later on in 1995 until the end of the war, were

 7     you involved in the work of the joint commission that was set up to

 8     interrogate prisoners of war?

 9        A.   Yes.  In May, the Republika Srpska government convened a meeting

10     that was chaired by the judicial organs, and this meeting was attended by

11     the security organs from the Republika Srpska army, from the MUP.  And

12     the objective was to make a decision tasking all the units with gathering

13     information about crimes against humanity and against international law,

14     and submitting them to the judiciary.  And in line with this, after the

15     army of Republika Srpska entered Zepa, I was involved in the work of a

16     commission that was supposed to interrogate the prisoners of war from the

17     BH Army, the Zepa Brigade.

18        Q.   Just a moment, please.  I will have to interrupt you.  We don't

19     want to rush this.

20             Who set up this commission to interrogate prisoners of war?

21        A.   Well, I don't know that.  But at the level of the Defence

22     Ministry and the Main Staff, an agreement was reached to set up this

23     commission, and the Ministry of Defence received a request to -- because

24     there were not enough security organs in the Main Staff, to second one of

25     the security organs to that commission.  And Mr. Milan Ninkovic, he was

Page 24160

 1     the minister at the time, he approved my involvement in this commission.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell us, who were the other people on the

 3     commission?

 4        A.   Well, as far as I can recall, I was there on behalf of the

 5     Ministry of Defence.  There was a representative of the Republika Srpska

 6     Army, I think it was Lieutenant Maksimovic, representatives of the

 7     Interior Ministry.  I remember it was Vojnovic, whose first name I can't

 8     recall, and there was another man from the MUP, again whose name I can't

 9     recall, but you can get this information from the orders.  There was a

10     representative of the Public Prosecutors' Office, Mr. Borovcanin, and a

11     representative of the Court.

12        Q.   When I asked who was there on the commission, I asked a general

13     question, a representation of what organs, but thank you for the details

14     that you've given us.

15             When did this commission start working?  What was its objective?

16     Could you please clarify this a little for all of us, how this commission

17     operated?

18        A.   Well, on the orders of the Defence Minister, I became a member of

19     this commission.  And since I was the ranking officer there and I had

20     experience in the security service, I was designated as the coordinator

21     of the commission.

22             We went to Foca, and we were headquartered in this hotel in Foca,

23     Zelengora or whatever its name is.  But at any rate, what really matters

24     is that we were in the hotel.  And in the prison, we were given premises

25     from the warden to actually do our job, in operational terms; in other

Page 24161

 1     words, to interrogate those prisoners of war.  There were 30 to 40 of

 2     them, if I can recall this correctly, and we organised a meeting.  We did

 3     the work plan.  There were four -- or, rather, three operatives who

 4     actually did that, and I was the coordinator.  I interrogated two of the

 5     prisoners at that meeting, the first meeting.  I relayed the instructions

 6     and the orders of Mr. Ljubisa Beara, who drew our attention to the fact

 7     that when working with prisoners of war, we should comply with the Rules

 8     of Service of the Security Service, the Law on the Army and international

 9     conventions.  And once this plan was in place, we actually started doing

10     our job.  The operational tasks I can't remember now, but it was about

11     seven days.  It took us about seven days or thereabouts.

12             After the prisoners were interrogated --

13        Q.   I will ask you not to go so fast.  We have already been warned

14     that your answers must be responsive, so that's what I'm asking you now,

15     to be responsive in your answers.  Let us backtrack a little bit.

16             Were judicial organs represented there?  Did they provide any

17     instructions about how this was to proceed, the procedure?

18        A.   The representatives of the Public Prosecutors' Office and from

19     the Court were present there.  I already indicated that Mr. Borovcanin

20     was there, representing the Prosecutors' Office, and I think there was a

21     Mr. Supic there, but I can't really confirm that, representing the

22     Courts, and they participated in our work there.  They assisted us when

23     we did the summary reports based on the interrogation, indicating what

24     elements -- what acts might constitute crimes, criminal offences.

25        Q.   How long did this interrogation last?

Page 24162

 1        A.   Well, I've already indicated the interrogations lasted for seven

 2     days.  I'm sure about that, but -- perhaps longer, but I can't really

 3     tell you that.  You can check that in the relevant documents.

 4        Q.   Who were those prisoners of war?

 5        A.   Those were prisoners of war, BH Army troops, the Zepa Brigade.

 6     That's what I'm calling it now.  I think it had a different designation,

 7     whether it was the 1st Brigade, the 1st Drina Brigade.  But at any rate,

 8     those were members of the Zepa Brigade.

 9             And in the course of the interrogations, I already indicated that

10     I interrogated two of those prisoners, well, it's been a long time so I

11     only remember that one that I interrogated was blonde, aged about 25,

12     short, and in his statement he said -- well, it was our objective to

13     determine, although we did have some operational intelligence from

14     before, that until Zepa was demilitarised, this unit had perpetrated

15     crimes against the civilian population and prisoners of war from the

16     ranks of the Republika Srpska army in the border areas of the Zepa

17     municipality, such as the village of Borovine and other locations, and it

18     was our basic objective in interrogation of those prisoners of war to

19     determine who actually did that or to confirm what we already knew, so as

20     regards the perpetrators of those crimes.

21        Q.   Please, what specifically did you do once you did the analysis,

22     you carried out the interrogations?  You said that you did this analysis?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Could you please give us a summary of the most salient points

25     from the point of view of the security organs that you had the intention

Page 24163

 1     of learning or that you actually learned.  So what were those prisoners,

 2     who were they, where they had come from, how were they captured, and what

 3     you learned from the interrogations?

 4        A.   Yes.  After the interrogations were completed, we had a meeting

 5     where we did the summary report, and on the basis of this summary report,

 6     we drafted the criminal report.  And this criminal report was then handed

 7     in to the Prosecutors' Office.  But what you just asked me about, the

 8     objectives that we had and the facts that we ascertained, as I've already

 9     indicated, our goal was to determine what members of the Zepa Brigade of

10     the BH Army had committed crimes in those border areas of the Zepa

11     municipality, such as the village of Borovine, the murder of civilians,

12     the members of the Borovine family, and the capturing of the Republika

13     Srpska army soldiers, for instance an officer by the name of Milosevic,

14     and we had indications that he had been wounded at the Batura mountain

15     and that he had been captured, and he's still missing.  His remains have

16     never been found, and his family doesn't know about his fate.

17             So in the course of the interrogations that I did, this prisoner

18     of war stated that before the VRS entered Zepa, this brigade had set up

19     some groups that were tasked with carrying out terrorist acts, attacking

20     the Republika Srpska army facilities.  There was a sabotage company in

21     the Zepa Brigade, and it was tasked with carrying out sabotage action

22     against Han Kran.  And this man was part of this unit, their commander

23     was wounded and -- in that action.  Once the action was completed they

24     returned to Zepa.  In the meantime, the VRS entered Srebrenica, and the

25     whole brigade, together with the command, it was at Travna Planina

Page 24164

 1     [phoen] near Zepa.  I'm not sure about the location, but I think it's

 2     Travna Planina.  They held a meeting to determine what they should do.

 3             So the entire Command, that's what this prisoner of war told me,

 4     participated in this meeting.  The whole brigade was there, and they had

 5     a number of proposals and one of the proposals was to fight the VRS.

 6     Another proposal was to try to break through the areas between the units

 7     of the VRS towards Tuzla.  And the third proposal was to do a forced

 8     crossing of the Drina river into Serbia.  And the fourth proposal, that

 9     was the group that was captured, about 30 or 40 of them to move towards

10     Rudo and to cross into Serbia there.

11             The chief of the Zepa Brigade, Ramo Cardakovic, he was in a

12     wheelchair, he was disabled, he proposed, in accordance to what this

13     witness told me, that they should do a forced crossing of the Drina River

14     into Serbia.  Most of the troops in the brigade accepted this proposal.

15     This is what this prisoner of war told me.  And he didn't know what

16     happened later, but he knew that his group managed to cross the Drina,

17     and then somewhere near Rudo in Republika Srpska, they were captured by

18     Republika Srpska troops and were brought to the penitentiary and

19     correctional facility, the prison in Foca.

20        Q.   What you've just told us, this is your information that you

21     reached by interrogating this prisoner; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Please, what was the period in which he said all of these things

24     that you just referred to now?

25        A.   Actually, he was talking about the period starting from June

Page 24165

 1     1995.

 2        Q.   And when were they captured?

 3        A.   I don't know the date, but they were captured after a few days

 4     after the VRS entered Zepa.  They managed to cross the Drina and to move

 5     towards Rudo.  And that's where the units of the VRS -- I cannot remember

 6     the exact place that he mentioned.  Probably it's there in the documents,

 7     exactly how they were captured.

 8        Q.   Any explanations provided by this prisoner about the way they

 9     tried to get out, was that before the fall of Zepa?

10        A.   Yes, yes, before the fall of Zepa, because this group, headed by

11     the brigade commander, were in favour of resisting by -- with weapons the

12     army of Republika Srpska, and the one that tried to cross into Zepa was

13     led by the police station commander.  I can't remember his name.  He's

14     from Han Pijesak, and then he moved to Zepa, and he was the commander of

15     the police station in Zepa.

16             All of this was before the army of Republika Srpska entered Zepa.

17        Q.   Let us go back now to this main idea.  You acquired information

18     about the fact that crimes were carried out, and their perpetrators.

19     Which event is this specifically relate to?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  Well, specifically, let's start in order.

21             A young soldier of the JNA who was captured in the beginning by

22     the Zepa forces was mistreated and led through Zepa with the words "Here

23     we captured a Chetnik."  The name is -- no, I can't remember the name

24     exactly, but it's written there exactly which member of the B&H Army did

25     this, and it's true this soldier was later exchanged and returned to the

Page 24166

 1     JNA.  This is one thing.

 2             Another thing, we got information about which persons burned the

 3     village of Borovine and committed a crime there against the civilian

 4     population.  It's been a long time since then, I cannot recall all the

 5     names, but it's documented.

 6             It was also confirmed that Officer Milosevic was wounded in a

 7     personnel carrier and that he was captured in such a state, and this

 8     prisoner knows who was the commander of which section and he mentioned

 9     that.  However, he doesn't know then what happened with this officer of

10     ours later.  So, as I said, his body has not been found to this very day.

11        Q.   And then you obtained information that the perpetrators were

12     actually suspected to be in the prison in Foca?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  By questioning and making a summary report, and by

14     citing in the criminal charges, we included a small number of people from

15     that group that was in the Foca penitentiary.  But according to what they

16     said, the bulk of those B&H members of the Zepa Brigade crossed into

17     Serbia with their chief, Ramo Cardakovic, and we were unable to get to

18     them.

19        Q.   Very well.  At the end of this whole procedure, what happened?

20        A.   I said that.  At the end of the procedure, we conducted an

21     analysis, we drafted a report, we put together a charge sheet, and we

22     passed that on to the Prosecutors' Office.  As for what the Prosecutors'

23     Office did after that, I personally don't know.  This was not part of the

24     security organ's job.  But according to some information, these prisoners

25     that we interrogated in the Foca penitentiary were -- they stayed in

Page 24167

 1     prison after we left, but later I got some information that all of those

 2     persons were exchanged.

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Pereula.  I have no

 4     further questions.

 5             Your Honours, I have completed this part of the examination.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Nikolic.

 7             Mr. Zivanovic, do you have a cross-examination?

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have no questions for this witness,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             Ms. Nikolic.

12             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

13     questions for this witness.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Lazarevic.

16             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I indicated that I will have no

17     cross-examination, but in order to avoid any misunderstanding, because

18     there was some mention of the name Borovcanin, can I just be allowed?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

20             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, thank you.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough, because although he was mentioned as

22     coming from a different --

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  But go ahead, go ahead.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

Page 24168

 1        Q.   Mr. Pereula, I'm Aleksandar Lazarevic, and I represent Ljubomir

 2     Borovcanin with my colleagues before this Tribunal.  Unfortunately, he's

 3     not here today, he's sick, but I would like on his behalf to put a couple

 4     of questions to you.

 5             In order we can clarify, since you mentioned the last name

 6     Borovcanin during your testimony and you also did not mention the name?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you perhaps recall the name of this gentleman, Mr. Borovcanin,

 9     that you referred to?

10        A.   I cannot recall the name exactly, but I can describe him.  He was

11     short build with dark hair.

12        Q.   Perhaps I can help you, in a way.

13             Can we put on the e-court 2D 526.  This is an exhibit that was

14     used previously.

15        A.   I know reliably that this person, Borovcanin, whose first name I

16     cannot recall, worked in the Military Prosecutors' Office of the

17     Main Staff of the VRS, and that is that person.

18        Q.   All right.  So when you talked about the Prosecution and the

19     Court, you were thinking about the military court?

20        A.   Yes, the bodies involved here were the Military Court and the

21     Military Prosecutors' Office.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the question.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I apologise since we overlapped, your answer and my question.

25     What I did was suggest to you in this document, what it says is that --

Page 24169

 1     it says that:  "President of the Court, Luka Borovcanin," in the military

 2     court and tribunal in Bijeljina.  Is that you referred to?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   So what we establish is that we were talking about Luka

 5     Borovcanin?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you very much.

 8     I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.

10             Madame Fauveau, you're still not cross-examining this witness?

11             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic.  You had asked for ten minutes.

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

16        Q.   Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, Mr. Pereula.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic, and I'm defending General Gvero and

19     I'm going to put to you some questions to you in relation to your

20     testimony today.

21             You mentioned that you are from the Rogatica sector.  Did you

22     have any opportunity to go to Zepa during your duties in the area?

23        A.   Yes.  I said that as a teacher, before the war, I worked in Zepa,

24     and during the war, when Zepa was declared a demilitarised -- or, rather,

25     a safe zone, I, representing the Main Staff, was part of a commission to

Page 24170

 1     monitor -- or at the time the UNPROFOR, the army of Republika Srpska, and

 2     the B&H Army reached a decision to form commissions representing the VRS,

 3     the B&H Army and the UNPROFOR to monitor the hand-over of weapons or,

 4     rather, to carry out the demilitarisation of that area.  So in that

 5     sense, I went to Zepa to carry out these assignments, and our route was

 6     Sokolac, Rogatica, Borike, Sjeversko, Boksanica, Zepa.  Well, this is

 7     actually my route, my old route that I used to take before the war.

 8        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to see when the check-points were

 9     set up of the UNPROFOR and the army of Republika Srpska?  What I'm

10     specifically interested in is if there were any check-points between

11     Rogatica and Zepa on the road, on that section of the road.

12        A.   When Zepa was declared a safe zone, then -- well, there's 40

13     kilometres from Rogatica to Zepa.  At the time, that section from

14     Boksanica -- or better said from Sjeversko to Rogatica, was a free zone

15     of Republika Srpska, where the population moved around freely and there

16     was no need to set up any kind of check-point.  There was a check-point

17     at Boksanica which was set up by the Ukrainian Battalion, and it was an

18     area of separation between the army of Republika Srpska and the B&H Army,

19     regardless of the fact that Zepa was a safe zone.  There was no

20     check-point between Rogatica and Zepa, except Boksanica.

21        Q.   So in view of the configuration of the terrain, how much time do

22     you need to drive from Rogatica to Zepa in a vehicle?

23        A.   I said that the distance was some 40 kilometres.  Before the war,

24     it would take me at least an hour and a half by bus.  Now I hear that the

25     road has been repaired and asphalt has been placed from Brezova Ravan to

Page 24171

 1     Zepa, so it could be shorter.

 2        Q.   You mean after the war?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, after the war, after the signing of the Dayton Accords,

 4     this was done.

 5        Q.   At the end, you explained your duties at the Defence Ministry.

 6     Did you have an opportunity in your work to go to the Main Staff or to

 7     Han Pijesak?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.  First of all, I said that there was cooperation

 9     between the Defence Ministry and the Main Staff, as a whole, and between

10     certain organs such as the security service, which cooperated in the

11     exchange of information with the Main Staff in Crna Rijeka, so that I

12     would go to Crna Rijeka after I went to the Defence Ministry or, rather,

13     Han Pijesak.

14        Q.   In 1995, this is what I'm interested in, did you see

15     General Gvero?

16        A.   Well, look.  When General Gvero came to the Main Staff, we met at

17     the Main Staff in Crna Rijeka, and it just happened that my son was in

18     the traffic section and he would drive General Gvero.  He was his driver

19     until 1993, when he went to assume other duties, my son.  So Mr. Gvero,

20     General Gvero, and I knew each other very well.  I would often go to

21     Bijeljina, to the Ministry -- Defence Ministry section there, the

22     Municipal Defence Ministry as well, and I had to go through Han Pijesak.

23     So on my way back from Bijeljina, I would stay at a motel, Gora in Han

24     Pijesak, where the logistics section was headed by the late

25     General Djukic.

Page 24172

 1             And in 1995, in early May, I was returning from Bijeljina, and I

 2     dropped by at the hotel, and the chief of the traffic sector, Kerkes,

 3     said, "General Gvero is here, too.  You can visit him," because he knew

 4     that we were like that, we were good friends.  And I said, "Where is he?"

 5     And he said he was on the second floor of the hotel, and I went up there

 6     to see Mr. Gvero.  We had some coffee and we had a kind of private chat.

 7     We said hello.  And that's how I found out that Mr. Gvero -- that his

 8     office was transferred to the Gora Hotel in Han Pijesak, whereas before

 9     it was in Crna Rijeka.

10        Q.   And after that period in 1995, did you visit General Gvero at

11     this hotel?

12        A.   Well, as I said, every time I went.  I mean, there was no special

13     visit.  When I was travelling on official business, I would drop by.  If

14     I had any reason, then I would go and see him.  And we would just drink

15     coffee mostly, things like that.

16        Q.   Mr. Pereula, do you perhaps remember the car that your son was

17     driving when he was driving General Gvero?

18        A.   Well, I really don't remember the kind of vehicle, but the

19     traffic people would know that, transportation people would know that,

20     because they mostly allocated vehicles and drivers, who would be driving

21     whom.  So I'm not really able to answer this question.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Mr. Pereula.

23             I have no further questions for this witness, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

25             Mr. Sarapa, do you have any questions of this witness?  You had

Page 24173

 1     requested ten minutes.

 2             MR. SARAPA:  No, we don't, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 4             Which brings us to you, Mr. Nicholls.  Incidentally, I should

 5     have done this in the beginning of the sitting, but I had assumed you had

 6     been informed, too.  The sitting schedule for today, up to and inclusive

 7     of Wednesday, will be from 9.00 to 10.40, so we've got another 10 minutes

 8     to go, and then we'll have a break, starting again at 11.10 up to 12.50,

 9     then a lunch break of one hour, and then resuming at 13.50 up to 3.30 in

10     the afternoon.  All right.

11             So, Mr. Nicholls, do you wish to start now or do you wish to

12     have -- I suggest you start and then we stop in ten minutes' time.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's fine, Your Honour, thank you.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

16        Q.   Good morning, sir.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   My name is Julian Nicholls.  I'm one of the prosecutors, and I'll

19     be asking you questions.  All right?

20        A.   Fine.

21        Q.   First of all, can you just tell me -- I hadn't known before now

22     about your son driving General Gvero.  How long did he do that for?  When

23     did he start driving him and when did he stop having that duty?

24        A.   Well, upon General Gvero's arrival in the Main Staff in 1992,

25     that's when it started, until November 1993, when my son, pursuant to the

Page 24174

 1     law that was in force at the time in Republika Srpska, he was granted

 2     leave to continue his studies.  So he went to Novi Sad to continue his

 3     studies.  So that was from 1992 until 1993.  Until November, rather.

 4        Q.   And after that, did he have that duty again later, to drive

 5     Mr. Gvero?

 6        A.   No, no, he never went back.

 7        Q.   Okay, thank you.  You described today the cooperation between the

 8     Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff on important security matters.

 9     Well, I'm assuming these are one of the most important matters.  Could

10     you just describe what topics you should share information on?  What were

11     some of the more important types topics that you would coordinate with

12     security of the Main Staff?

13        A.   For the most part, this was operational information obtained

14     through counter-intelligence work, and this information pertained, as

15     I've already indicated -- the defence industry was located in the areas

16     of responsibility of certain VRS units, and they had their organs in

17     place, so they would obtain some operational information, operational

18     intelligence, regarding the defence industry.  So this was the

19     information -- some of the information that I obtained from the

20     Main Staff.

21             The Ministry of Defence organs, when they obtained some

22     information regarding the VRS, we would give this information to them.

23     So this was done in professional terms.  This was a

24     professionally-speaking normal counter-intelligence work.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And if I understood you correctly, you went to the

Page 24175

 1     MOD in November 1993, was it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Where, physically, was your office in Pale?

 4        A.   It was in the Ministry of Defence.  That was in the Famos company

 5     premises, in their administration building.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And I'm sure it varied, but from 1993, November 1993,

 7     when you started there, through 1994 and into 1995, how often would you

 8     make that trip to Crna Rijeka or to Han Pijesak to meet with the

 9     Main Staff about security matters?

10        A.   Well, I didn't go there often.  When it was necessary.  When I

11     obtained some information from my security organs, and if they were

12     within the purview of the Main Staff and if it was necessary to have

13     face-to-face discussions, then I would go, but otherwise this was also

14     done orally by way of information.  But when those were some subtle

15     issues, I would go down there, but it was not that often.

16        Q.   And the transcript says "subtle issues."  Is that sensitive

17     issues or things that needed to be done -- talked about face to face?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  This was counter-intelligence work that required some

19     discussions and some arrangements to be put in place to do perhaps some

20     work together.

21        Q.   All right.  And you say "rarely or not often."  I know it's a

22     while ago, but can you just give me an idea?  You know, once a month,

23     once every two months, once a week, how often you had these face-to-face

24     discussions with the Main Staff security?

25        A.   Well, on the average, it might have been once every two months.

Page 24176

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, other than these face-to-face meetings for the

 2     more sensitive issues, you said information was exchanged orally.  How

 3     else would you exchange professionally information with the Main Staff

 4     during 1993, 1994, 1995?  Is that over a radio, telephone, encrypted

 5     messages?  I'd like you to describe the communication with the

 6     Main Staff, please.

 7        A.   Well, all communications went through the Command, through the

 8     headquarters, so the security service also used that route.  But there

 9     were also written reports that were mailed, or, rather, couriers went

10     around distributing mail.  The security service did not have their own

11     designated communications system that would go separately from the

12     command system.

13        Q.   Now, thank you.  If you can just keep talking me through this.

14     When you get reports from the Main Staff, what happens with those

15     reports?  What did you -- you know, obviously you read them, but then

16     what do you do with those reports?

17        A.   If the reports were of counter-intelligence nature, well, and

18     reports in general, I would go through it until I obtained the

19     information.  All the information from -- that came from the Main Staff,

20     I then informed the Defence Minister so he was kept abreast.  The

21     Minister also knew of the information that I was sending to the

22     Main Staff.

23        Q.   Now, who was your immediate superior, the person you reported to?

24     Was it directly to the Minister or was there anybody in between you and

25     the Minister in the chain of that reporting?

Page 24177

 1        A.   No, no, it was the Minister and myself.  So I submitted those

 2     reports, and I told him about this intelligence directly.

 3        Q.   And let's take July 1995, June/July 1995.  How often did you meet

 4     with the Minister of Defence and brief him on these reports?

 5        A.   Well, I think that this period was the period when there was the

 6     least exchange of information between the Defence Ministry and the

 7     Main Staff, so I think that in June I did not receive any information

 8     from the Main Staff, and I did not relay this information to the Minister

 9     at all.

10        Q.   In July, when there was the operations in Srebrenica and Zepa?

11        A.   The same.  The Ministry of Defence was kept out of the loop as

12     regards those events, except to the extent that other organs had to do

13     it.  But other than that, the security service did not have any need to

14     get involved.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's stop here.  We'll resume at 11.00 -- at 10

16     minutes past 11.00.  Thank you.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, Witness, just a few more questions on this topic about the

22     cooperation and exchange of information between the MOD and the

23     Main Staff.

24             You say that June and July was the time of least information

25     exchanged.  The Ministry of Defence was kept out of the loop as regards

Page 24178

 1     these events.  Why is that?  Why, during these major operations, there's

 2     no exchange of security information?

 3        A.   First, I am not aware if these were major pieces of information

 4     or not, but in any case the information that reached me from the field,

 5     from my subordinate security organs, did not indicate the need to pass

 6     this information to the Main Staff.  I assume that something like that

 7     was also in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, that there

 8     was no need.  I mean, I don't know what information was available to

 9     them, but there was no need to pass the information on to the Defence

10     Ministry.

11        Q.   Well, just for -- a thought that occurs to me off the top of my

12     head.  There was this order in May to set up a commission to investigate

13     war crimes; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you chaired and took a large part in that commission;

16     correct?

17        A.   No, no, no, we misunderstood each other.  In May, I wasn't --

18     well, this was organised as part of the government, and the presiding

19     role was played by the judicial organs, and this was in May.  I wasn't

20     chairing that commission.  I was chairing the commission that was in

21     charge of interrogating the prisoners of war in the Foca penitentiary in

22     1995, after the VRS entered Zepa.

23        Q.   Exactly.  So knowing that the VRS was going to enter Zepa,

24     knowing that there would likely be prisoners to be interrogated, wouldn't

25     you need some kind of information exchange at the time just to -- just to

Page 24179

 1     be ready and to know the situation on the ground for these

 2     interrogations?

 3        A.   First of all, I didn't know that the VRS would enter Zepa.  This

 4     was not a part of my duties or within the ambit of the Defence Ministry.

 5     I didn't know that there would be arrests of prisoners of war.  I mean,

 6     this happened after they entered.  And before, I didn't have the

 7     information, I didn't know, and I did not take part in such activities.

 8        Q.   What about Srebrenica; did you have advanced knowledge?  Did the

 9     Ministry of Defence know about that in advance?

10        A.   No, no.

11        Q.   Are you --

12        A.   No, no.  I had more contacts with Zepa, because as I said, when

13     it was declared a safe zone, I was in a commission representing the army

14     of Republika Srpska to effect the demilitarisation, and there was a

15     different team that went to Srebrenica.  So I'm really not that familiar

16     with that side of it.

17        Q.   Okay.  And so you didn't go to Zepa in July 1995, yourself?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

20        A.   No, no, no.

21        Q.   And you have no knowledge of which check-points may have been set

22     up, moved, during that time?

23        A.   Before the VRS entered Zepa, I knew that because I had friends

24     and relatives in Borike and specifically in Sjeversko, which is two

25     kilometres away from the Boksanica check-point, I went to see Mr. Sretan

Page 24180

 1     Mitrovic, we were friends, and since I'm from Rogatica and I was in

 2     Rogatica in 1995, and even before 1995 the VRS entered, I went up there

 3     and I never saw check-points in that route.  After the VRS entered Zepa,

 4     I didn't go along that route anymore.

 5        Q.   Now, going back to June/July 1995, can you tell us again the name

 6     of the Minister of Defence at that time?

 7        A.   Mr. Milan Ninkovic.

 8        Q.   And what was Kovacevic's position at that time, as you recall?

 9        A.   I don't know which Kovacevic you mean.  There were two of them.

10        Q.   I believe his name was Momcilo, the one you referenced before.

11        A.   I don't remember mentioning him in that context, but I do know

12     Momcilo Kovacevic.  He worked in the Defence Ministry on mobilisation and

13     organisational issues.

14        Q.   Now, you said that the -- and I don't want to go through this,

15     the Court's seen it several times, even recently, but you are aware that

16     the Main Staff sent a document to the Ministry of Defence during -- after

17     the fall of Srebrenica, requesting that buses be mobilised and

18     immediately sent to Bratunac.  You know about that, don't you?

19        A.   No, no, I didn't know that.  That didn't go through the security

20     service.  And I responsibly state that I was not aware of that.

21        Q.   All right.  So there were contacts between the Main Staff and the

22     Ministry of Defence that you were not aware of, if they were outside of

23     security; correct?

24        A.   Perhaps, perhaps.

25        Q.   Well, let's just look at the order quickly to show you.

Page 24181

 1             2899, please.

 2             And you know Petar Skrbic; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And here he's writing very urgently to the Ministry of Defence,

 5     requesting buses immediately, 50 buses, to be sent to the Bratunac sports

 6     stadium on 12 July; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's what it states here, but I wasn't aware of that and

 8     I'm not aware of this order.  And it was outside of my scope of duties,

 9     and it was probably the other department, whoever was acting from that

10     department.  That particular aspect was not part of my regular duties.

11        Q.   Right.  And then you're also not aware that Momcilo Kovacevic,

12     that same day, responding to that order, sent an order for the immediate

13     mobilisation of buses to go to Bratunac.  That's 65 ter number 13.

14     You're not aware of that either; right?

15        A.   No.  No, no, I didn't, no.

16        Q.   What other departments would have been aware of that need to

17     mobilise buses in order to move people from Srebrenica, in the Ministry

18     of Defence?

19        A.   Well, I cannot answer this.  But, in any case, no sector or organ

20     could have done that alone, if it was done, without the Defence Ministry,

21     without the Minister of Defence.

22        Q.   Right.  Well, let's just, in that case, put this up to show you.

23             Number 13, please.

24             Can you read that, sir?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24182

 1        Q.   Now, is that what you're talking about, this order -- this

 2     immediate, very urgent order, is signed "For," "Za," "Momcilo Kovacevic,"

 3     and that would have gone through the Minister of Defence; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay, thank you.  Now, as somebody who's been there since

 6     November 1993, at the top of the Security Department of the Ministry of

 7     Defence, why is it that you don't know what other departments would be

 8     involved in assisting in the Srebrenica operation, just as we've seen

 9     with these two documents?  You have no knowledge of where the rest of the

10     departments worked in your ministry?

11        A.   Each department functioned separately and carried out its

12     assignments with the consent of the Minister of Defence, so the Minister

13     was aware of what each sector was doing, the sector for security, for

14     mobilisation and organisation.  I wasn't included in all of that.  I

15     didn't have to know all of these aspects, if that was the case.

16        Q.   How did you learn that Srebrenica had fallen, or was liberated,

17     depending on your terminology?

18        A.   Simply, to tell you the truth, I actually learned about it

19     through the media.

20        Q.   Okay.  And I almost asked that as a leading question.  You're

21     another one of the high-ranking officials who learned about the fall of

22     Srebrenica on TV or in the paper; is that -- you're sticking by that?

23     You're in the Ministry of Defence, watching TV --

24        A.   Absolutely.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... okay.  Now, let's go to the

Page 24183

 1     investigation of war crimes.

 2             You investigated war crimes against Serb civilians; correct?  You

 3     told us about that.

 4        A.   I didn't investigate just war criminals who committed crimes

 5     against Serb civilians, but as part of the work in our town and the

 6     agreement at the level of the government, all crimes were investigated,

 7     regardless of whether they were committed by members of the army of

 8     Republika Srpska or of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This just

 9     exceptionally a case that I investigated involving members of the army of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1995, when the army of Republika Srpska entered

11     Zepa.  This was an exception.  Otherwise, the service's assignment was to

12     investigate any person, including members of the army of Republika

13     Srpska, suspected of committing crimes against humanity or committing

14     violations of international law.

15        Q.   Right.  And it's the duty, you know, of every officer in the VRS

16     to report war crimes, crimes against humanity, crimes against civilians,

17     that he becomes aware of; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And when did you first start investigating war crimes committed

20     by any party, regardless of the ethnicity of the victim, whether they

21     were a Muslim, a Croat, or a Serb?  When did you start this work?

22        A.   I already mentioned the example, that I interrogated my first

23     prisoner of war in Han Pijesak, Mr. Meho Agic, who was a member of the

24     brigade.  But as far as the Main Staff is concerned, I also dealt with

25     personnel issues in the security organ and the issues of training, and if

Page 24184

 1     needed I was engaged on these particular tasks.  And we have this Meho

 2     Agic, that's the example I referred to, who had been brought to

 3     Han Pijesak, and he was in the 1st Rogatica Brigade.

 4             Then we have also this instance that I described when it was

 5     agreed that I should be part of the team interrogating prisoners of war.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, this Meho Agic, you knew him before the war, didn't

 7     you?

 8        A.   Yes.  He was a member of the Staff of the Territorial Defence of

 9     the municipality of Rogatica.  He was the commander.

10        Q.   And before the war started, you were on relatively good terms

11     with him?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, speaking of war crimes, crimes against humanity, massacres

14     of civilians, tell me about the most serious crimes committed by the VRS

15     during the war that were investigated, that you know about.  Let's just

16     start with 1992.  Who was prosecuted for killing Muslim civilians in

17     1992?

18             You can't name one; right?

19        A.   Yes, yes, I cannot remember.  And after all, when I was in the

20     Main Staff, I was a desk officer, after all, and I was less involved in

21     such cases.

22        Q.   Sir, I understand, but my point is you said that it wasn't just

23     ABiH soldiers who were investigated, it was also VRS members, and I'd

24     like to know if you remember --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24185

 1        Q.   -- if you can point me to a single prosecution of a VRS soldier

 2     for committing crimes against Muslim civilians during the war period.

 3     Think about Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc, Zvornik, Bratunac?

 4        A.   As for Prijedor and that part of the Republika Srpska territory,

 5     since I'm not from that area, I didn't go much there and I'm not really

 6     that familiar with it, but otherwise I cannot give a specific answer to

 7     that question because I don't know.  I'm not familiar with that.  And

 8     when I said that we conducted investigations or that we were trying to

 9     find all the perpetrators of such crimes, this was the order from our

10     superior officers.  This is how I understood it, and this is how we were

11     doing it.

12             As for the fact that I didn't have a specific case, I said that I

13     wasn't engaged on it that much.  I was a member of the Defence Ministry,

14     and the circumstances were -- or actually my duties were actually quite

15     different compared to assignments like that.

16             And in 1992 --

17        Q.   All right.  You can finish your answer if you have something else

18     to say.  I didn't mean to cut you off.

19        A.   The year 1992, up until 1993, was the beginning of the war.  We

20     were just in the process of being formed, so that it was impossible to

21     find out things like that.

22        Q.   And what about Visegrad; is there any prosecutions there for

23     crimes committed by VRS soldiers, ever?  If you don't know, say you don't

24     know.  It's okay.

25        A.   No.

Page 24186

 1        Q.   Now -- and one of the things you talked about at length was this

 2     soldier, Milosevic, who'd gone missing and his body wasn't found.  That

 3     was a priority for you, wasn't it, trying to get that information?

 4        A.   Yes, it was a senior officer of the army of Republika Srpska, and

 5     we had reliable information that he was wounded and captured.  However,

 6     we didn't manage to get information about what happened to the body.

 7     I think in the transcript of the interrogation of this witness or this

 8     prisoner, it's known what happened to him during the interrogation and

 9     what he said, but we don't know later what happened to him.

10        Q.   Right.  And you agree with me, don't you, that it's a terrible

11     thing for surviving family members not to know where the remains of their

12     loved ones lie or what happened to them?

13        A.   Absolutely, regardless of the side that is involved.

14        Q.   Let me switch topics now a bit.

15             You know General Miletic; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you knew him in 1993?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in June 1993, there was a Main Staff IKM in Rogatica?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And that was also at the HQ of the 1st Podrinje Brigade, Light

22     Infantry Brigade, correct, in Rogatica?

23        A.   I think that it was the forward command post of the Drina Corps.

24        Q.   But there's an IKM for the Main Staff in Rogatica, correct, in

25     1993, in June?

Page 24187

 1        A.   No.  It was the forward command post of the Drina Corps, and some

 2     of the senior officers were then seconded to that command post.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll look at some documents about that in a minute.

 4             Now, the Brigade commander in Rogatica was Ratko Kusic; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, Ratko Kusic.

 6        Q.   Security chief Zoran Carkic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And Miletic, in June 1993, was in Rogatica; correct?  Some of the

 9     time, at least?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you communicated with him there?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  Could we have 2742 up, please.

14        Q.   Now, sir, this is a VRS Main Staff combat order --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters didn't understand what the witness

16     said.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Pereula, the interpreters didn't catch what you

18     just stated in reply to Mr. Nicholls' question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I was present at the forward

20     command post.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, we'll get to it.  I don't know if my friend

22     had an objection.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know, because I don't know what he

24     answered, anyway.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  It wasn't actually an objection.  The only thing

Page 24188

 1     is that we still haven't received a list of documents that the

 2     Prosecution intends to use.  But I was informed by my assistant that we

 3     have just received it a moment ago, so that was it.  I didn't have any

 4     objections at all.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Longer than a moment ago, but --

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, I think it was a while ago.

 7        Q.   In any event, if you could look at this, sir, you can see that

 8     it's a 1st May 1993 VRS Main Staff combat order, and it's titled:

 9     "Combat Order for the Liberation of Zepa and Gorazde."  Do you see that?

10             Would you like a hard copy, sir, paper copy?  Just let me know if

11     you have trouble reading it.  You can look at it as long as you want, but

12     just let me know if you have trouble reading it.

13        A.   Yes, I can now peruse this the way it is.

14        Q.   Okay.  So this is the 1st of May, 1993, combat order for the

15     liberation of Zepa and Gorazde.  You see that?

16        A.   The 1st of May, 1993, yes.

17        Q.   And if we go to page 2 of the English and stay on page 1 of the

18     B/C/S, we can see at the end of paragraph 1, as it states in the title,

19     that this order concerns the Muslim enclaves, among others, in

20     Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde, and it states that:  "Considering the

21     military defeats in Kamenica, Cerska and Konjevic Polje, and expecting

22     the fall of Zepa within a short period of time," and it goes on to

23     discuss the Muslim strategy.  At the bottom of the next paragraph which

24     begins:  "Therefore ... ," the order states that the VRS needs to expect

25     sabotage and terrorist attacks in the region of Grebka and the

Page 24189

 1     establishment of a corridor from Trnovo to Gorazde.

 2             Do you see all that?  I'm just trying to put all this in context

 3     for you.

 4        A.   No, I'm not familiar with this.

 5        Q.   I didn't ask you whether you were familiar with it.  I'm just

 6     asking you if you can see that now, what this order was about.

 7        A.   I can see it.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we go to page 6 of the English and page 4 of the

 9     B/C/S, at point number 2 -- I don't think we have it there in B/C/S yet

10     for the witness -- yes, point number 2, there we see the task:

11             "The RS army has been tasked with the following:  To mop up fully

12     Sredoje, Gornje Podrinje."

13             And then offensive actions:  "To crush and destroy Muslim armed

14     formations in the border area of Zepa and Gorazde, and to enable the

15     Muslim civilian population to move out (transfer) to other territories,

16     central part of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, or to recognise the rule

17     of Republika Srpska and in that manner create conditions for the return

18     of the Serbian population to the left and right bank of the Drina River."

19             So that's -- so you see that, that's the task to be assigned?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  If we can go to the next page of the

22     English, page 7, which is page 5 of the B/C/S.  We go down to the

23     paragraph below the paragraph marked point 4.  We can see that part --

24     the objective of the objection, one of the paragraph starts, is

25     coordinated action on part of the Foca Tactical Group.

Page 24190

 1             And if we go to page 8 now in the English, which should be page 5

 2     of the B/C/S as well, towards the bottom, we have:

 3             "The Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska shall coordinate

 4     the operation from the IKM post in Rogatica.  Colonel Dragan Ilic shall

 5     be responsible for merging, planning, linking, and RIK of the forces

 6     engaged in the liberation of Gorazde, and Colonel Radivoje Miletic of the

 7     forces engaged in the liberation of Zepa."

 8             And, finally, if we can go to the last page of both documents, at

 9     the bottom of the page, sir, you'll see that this combat order was

10     drafted by Colonel Miletic.  Do you see that.

11        A.   It says here the deputy commander, General Major Milovanovic.

12     That's what I see.

13        Q.   Yes.  Maybe we need to go one page down.  I'm sorry, page 9.

14        A.   On the left-hand side it says:  "Drafted by."

15        Q.   Right.  Thank you.  Now I want to go through a few documents,

16     sir, following on from this, and see if it helps refresh your memory of

17     what was going on at that time in 1993.

18             The first one is 3565, and while we're waiting for it, I'll read

19     out this document.  Thank you.

20             This document is from the 14th of June, 1993.  It's from the

21     forward command post.  It says:  "Main Staff, VRS, Rogatica.  Extremely

22     urgent."  It's from Colonel Miletic.  It's to be delivered to the Drina

23     Corps IKM, I can't pronounce it properly, Cajnice, and it's for you to

24     report to Rogatica; correct?

25        A.   I really can't remember.  But if that's what is written in here,

Page 24191

 1     then it must be correct.

 2        Q.   Right.  And there's -- there's nothing tricky here.  I'm just

 3     trying to establish, as you can see, that there was this IKM in Rogatica,

 4     and Miletic was sending you a message at that time on the 14th.

 5             Can we go to 3566.  And this is a couple of days earlier, the

 6     12th of June, 1993.  This is from you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And it's to the Tactical Group, Foca, intelligence officer, and

11     at the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, Colonel Miletic personally;

12     correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And as we can see, what you're doing here is reporting about one

15     of the problems we saw in the combat order, is that the Muslim forces are

16     trying to slip weapons into Gorazde, correct, which is something that

17     would be of concern?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Just a couple more.  3568, please.  We were at 12th June.  We're

20     back to 14th of June 1993.

21             Again, it's from you to the Tactical Group, Foca, to the Podrinje

22     Brigade in Rogatica and to Miletic.  Take a moment to read this.  And,

23     again, here it's about Muslim units in this area are called "Grebka,"

24     which was also saw was a problem in the combat order; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24192

 1        Q.   3567, please.  A similar document, 13th of June 1993.  It's from

 2     you again at Drina Corps IKM, Cajnice, to the VRS Main Staff, to the 1st

 3     Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade and again to Colonel Miletic.  You can

 4     see that again; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And, again, this concerns the situation of the Muslim forces in

 7     Gorazde; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Let's look at what you're proposing here:

10             "Muslim forces in Gorazde have been placed in a very unfavorable

11     position.  Soldiers and citizens are in a state of panic.  We decided to

12     use our propaganda more in order to carry out further combat activities

13     and realise our goal (liberation of Gorazde) as successfully as

14     possible."

15             And that goal is the same goal we saw in the combat order,

16     correct, the liberation of Gorazde?

17        A.   Well, this is subject to debate.  There was combat, and the Serb

18     forces before that had been defeated in Gorazde.

19        Q.   Okay.  But it may be subject to debate, but it's not too

20     complicated, is it ?  The combat order we just looked at, and I don't

21     want to bring it up again, is a combat order for the liberation of

22     Gorazde, and you're saying that this proposal is to realise "our goal,"

23     the liberation of Gorazde, and that's one month later; right?

24        A.   Well, that may be the terminology, the terminology may be to that

25     effect, but there was combat, and let me repeat that before the army of

Page 24193

 1     Republika Srpska had been defeated in Gorazde, we can go over that, and

 2     then we mounted a counter-attack.  This is where combat took place, and

 3     this is where I sent this information to the forward command post.

 4        Q.   Yes, about the liberation of Gorazde; right?

 5        A.   No, no, no.

 6        Q.   Okay.  What do you mean here --

 7        A.   First of all, what I had in mind was to liberate the territory

 8     where we had been and from which we had been moved by the BiH forces, to

 9     be more precise, the Gorazde Division.

10        Q.   This is part of, as it said in the combat order, allowing Serbs

11     to return to the Podrinje region and have that region as theirs; correct?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That's where we were, and we had been

13     expelled from there, we had been moved from there.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now, here is your suggestion:

15             "To this end, we have composed a manifest which we intend to air

16     on Radio Foca, Visegrad and Rudo, as well as on megaphone, which will be

17     transmitted from a moving vehicle for greater efficiency.  Please provide

18     one armoured vehicle with a mounted megaphone from the direction of the

19     1st Romanija Brigade from which the following text will be broadcasted."

20             So this is an element of propaganda in order to help you achieve

21     your goal.  This is the text that you suggested should be broadcast:

22             "Muslims from Gorazde, you have realised that both the world and

23     Alija have left you high and dry.  Allah himself will help you if you

24     listen to us.  We offer you salvation, because we are the only ones who

25     can save you.  Break up from those who have driven you to death for

Page 24194

 1     months and take the road to salvation.  Head towards Kopaci and

 2     Ustipraca.  There we guarantee you life and final relief.  There we offer

 3     you shelter and final deliverance and then a road of your choice.  It is

 4     far away from the hell Alija took you to.  Hoist the white flag and be on

 5     your way.  We're waiting for you in Ustipraca.  You don't have much

 6     time."

 7             Now, that is a message, I suggest to you, first of all -- wait

 8     for the question.  First of all, it's directed to the Muslims of Gorazde,

 9     isn't it?  That doesn't say "soldiers."

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Second, that message says "get out now."  That message says "you

12     don't have much time."  That's basically a message any reasonable person

13     reading it would think "leave or else"; correct?

14        A.   No.  When it comes to combat, in any case, everybody knows that

15     propaganda is also used as a means towards a goal in combat.  Some terms

16     and expressions that are used here may be at the moment when they were

17     used.  In any case, one did not have in mind moving out the entire

18     population of Gorazde, and I repeat that the environs of Gorazde at the

19     time, the territory under the Serb forces, had been abandoned and we were

20     given the task to return those territories.  And when it comes to the

21     terminology, obviously, when it comes to propaganda, you also used things

22     that you didn't really have in mind as your goal.

23             So I believe that this was just pure propaganda.  We did not

24     mention soldiers.  This is an omission on our part.  This is a --

25     something that could not be done in the situation of combat.  You could

Page 24195

 1     not think of any single term, any single expression.  This was just

 2     propaganda that was used as means in combat.  Both sides did that.  But

 3     it was not our goal to expel the civilian population from Gorazde, and

 4     indeed this never happened.

 5        Q.   But you read that message, a reasonable Muslim civilian in

 6     Gorazde would be frightened by that message and would hear, "There we

 7     guarantee, away from here, there we guarantee you life."  That means

 8     Gorazde, "we're not going to guarantee your life."  It says, "Hoist a

 9     white flag and be on your way."  And it says:  "You don't have much

10     time."

11             Now, for just a normal person in Gorazde, who's not in the

12     military, isn't going to dissect this in a military manner, isn't going

13     to say, Oh that's just propaganda.  That's a threat, isn't it?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Just a moment.  Madame Fauveau.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Objections with regard to this

16     issue.  The Prosecution should first establish whether the message was

17     read or not to the Muslim population in Gorazde.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to reply to that?

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.  I'm pursuing my

20     cross-examination.  This was a proposal made by the witness, that's where

21     I am at the moment.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, one moment.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  I mean, Your Honours, I'm going there, I'm going

25     to ask this question.  I'm trying to do this in my own way.

Page 24196

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then go ahead, go ahead.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, my colleague has essentially put the

 3     question to you.

 4        Q.   What was the response to Colonel Miletic from your proposal to

 5     broadcast this message to the Muslims of Gorazde?

 6        A.   I think that this message never reached the Muslim forces or the

 7     Muslim population in Gorazde, because we did not have the means to take

 8     that avenue.  We could not air our message.  We could not throw out

 9     leaflets from an aircraft or a helicopter.  We did not have that.  So I

10     believe that this never reached Muslim forces.  I believe that this was

11     just something that we had prepared to do in order to possibly intimidate

12     the fighters of the Gorazde units that were in their positions.  And I

13     personally believe -- I don't know whether you have at your disposal any

14     document showing that the population of Gorazde never received this

15     message in any shape or form.

16        Q.   All right.  Well, and I'm going to move on from this in a minute,

17     but you certainly had control of the airwaves, the airwaves or radio

18     stations, in Foca, Visegrad and Rudo; correct?  There were radio stations

19     that could broadcast there; correct?

20        A.   I personally did not use them, and I am not aware of that.  It

21     may well be true, but I don't know.

22        Q.   It may well be true because you suggested it in this proposal,

23     and I take it that as a security officer, you don't suggest proposals

24     that you know are impossible.  You don't say, "I think we should do

25     this," when in fact you know it's impossible.  You don't say, "Let's use

Page 24197

 1     Foca radio station," when you can't use Foca radio station; correct?

 2        A.   I really can't remember, as I sit here.  It's very difficult for

 3     me to rewind and tell you how it all transpired.  But I believe that at

 4     the time, these means did not function so as to be able to convey all the

 5     information to the civilian population in this particular way, to the

 6     Muslim population in Gorazde, I mean.

 7        Q.   And just so we're clear, it was beyond the means of the

 8     Main Staff of the VRS to provide one armoured combat vehicle with a

 9     megaphone on it; that was something that couldn't be done?

10        A.   We did not have that at our disposal, or at least I don't know

11     that we had it at our disposal.

12        Q.   Now, I'm moving on to another topic.  You talked about

13     interviewing Meho or Mehmed Hajric at the SUP in Han Pijesak in 1992.  Do

14     you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You admitted to me earlier that you'd known him in Rogatica

17     before this unfortunate war; correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Now, do you recall, when you interviewed him, that when he was

20     brought to you, that he had a head wound?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you recall, when he was brought to you, that he complained to

23     you -- you interviewed him twice.  I should say that.

24        A.   No, he just wanted me to find him a blanket and give it to him,

25     because he was cold in the cellar.

Page 24198

 1             When he was first brought to Han Pijesak, I was not the one who

 2     established the initial contact with him.  It was probably the MUP.  I

 3     only saw him later on.  He never complained of any wounds on his body,

 4     nor did I notice any.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Because that's interesting, because what he says is that

 6     he complained -- that he asked for a blanket, just as you said, and also

 7     that he complained about being beaten to you; not that you beat him.  You

 8     treated him fine, but he complained to you that he was beaten in between

 9     his interrogations with you.  You don't remember that?

10        A.   No.  Even eyeball-to-eyeball with Meho, I could tell him that he

11     never complained about that to me.  He was thirsty, I gave him water.  I

12     offered him cigarettes.  Not mine, mind you, they were his own cigarettes

13     that I located somewhere and I offered them to him.  But he never

14     complained about being beaten, and I never noticed anything on his body,

15     although we spent a rather lengthy time talking, maybe an hour, an hour

16     and a half.

17        Q.   And do you remember ever, you know, hearing about prisoners being

18     beaten when they were in VRS custody?

19        A.   I don't remember, no.

20        Q.   No.  And if you would, you would have reported it, wouldn't you,

21     and there would have been a prosecution?

22        A.   I would have condemned that, yes.

23        Q.   Now, you're from Rogatica?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   There was a prison where prisoners of war were kept in Rogatica

Page 24199

 1     in July 1995; right?

 2             Are you telling me you don't know about Rasadnik?  Let me help

 3     you remember, I might have pronounced it wrong.

 4             You have heard about it?  We didn't get your answer.

 5        A.   Rasadnik, you're saying?  Rasadnik?  Yes.

 6        Q.   There was a farm there that was used as a prison in 1995;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   It is possible.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You're from Rogatica.  You were a security officer.

10     You're at the top of the MOD.  You know about check-points from going

11     home and talking to your neighbours and friends.  Is it possible or was

12     there a prison farm in Rogatica in July 1995, or you don't remember?

13        A.   There was a prison.  I heard of that.

14        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever interview prisoners there?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Now, there were prisoners from Zepa held there?

17        A.   This was not in my jurisdiction, and I did not get information

18     about that from the superior command and I did not interrogate such

19     prisoners in Rogatica.  These prisoners were probably previously captured

20     from Zepa or other places when I was -- while I was at the Ministry of

21     Defence, so this was not part of my duties.  There was no need for me to

22     interrogate those prisoners.

23        Q.   Let me just give you a little background.  These prisoners from

24     Zepa, some of them, many of them, were men from Zepa, Muslims, who'd been

25     removed from buses during the convoy removing them from Kladanj in July

Page 24200

 1     1995.  Now, you're interviewing prisoners in Foca to get information

 2     about war crimes; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  In Foca, yes.

 4        Q.   Prisoners are being interviewed in Rogatica about Zepa and about

 5     war crimes and about intelligence.  Isn't it important to put that

 6     information together?  Don't you need to know what's going on, what these

 7     prisoners are saying, if you're going to interview your prisoners

 8     effectively?

 9        A.   First of all, I wasn't the person working on the coordination of

10     these prisoners.  Upon request of the Main Staff, I would go to Foca.

11     There were no requests arriving at the Ministry of Defence to engage

12     security organs on interrogations of prisoners in Zepa who happened to be

13     in Rogatica, so I never went there and I never did any interrogations

14     there.

15        Q.   Were you aware that prisoners, Muslim prisoners held in Rogatica,

16     have reported being beaten?  Did that ever reach your ears?

17        A.   No.  I must explain.

18             I was born in Rogatica.  In 1968, I came to Sarajevo, and I

19     described my advancement in the service.  I had no connections with

20     Rogatica, other than having the TO duties, and it was my duty to visit

21     the TO staff.  So I was there officially during the war.  I actually went

22     to Rogatica very little.

23        Q.   Okay.  So if I tell you that Muslims from Zepa held there, Mehmed

24     Hajric, Amir Imamovic, men who were leaders in the community in Zepa,

25     that they were beaten in that prison and then their bodies were found in

Page 24201

 1     mass graves, that's -- is this the first time you're hearing it, from me

 2     now?

 3        A.   I'm hearing it from you for the first time, definitely.

 4        Q.   Now, about how many prisoners was it that were available to be

 5     interrogated in Foca?  It might have been 149?

 6        A.   No, no, there were 30 to 40 prisoners in Foca which we

 7     interviewed.  I don't remember if it was 30 or 40, but that was the

 8     figure, approximately.  Over 100 persons are on the charge list, and

 9     these are mostly people who were in Serbia, who had crossed into Serbia

10     with the chief, Cardakovic, and we couldn't get to them.  I already said

11     that.

12        Q.   And these were members of the Zepa Brigade, and it was important

13     to interview them to find out about crimes they had committed; correct?

14        A.   I don't know who you're thinking of.  Which prisoners, the ones

15     in Rogatica or the ones in Foca?

16        Q.   Foca.  I'm talking about Foca now.

17        A.   Yes, they were prisoners, through which we were supposed to find

18     out who committed the crimes --

19        Q.   And it's important to document --

20        A.   -- against members of the army of Republika Srpska and the

21     civilian population, because these had occurred.  Borovine -- Borovine

22     were burned and people were killed, and it was necessary to find out who

23     did this.

24        Q.   Yeah.  Now, what about the 28th Division out of Srebrenica?  They

25     also -- also, you've heard about excursions out of the Srebrenica enclave

Page 24202

 1     and crimes being committed by the 28th Division; right?

 2        A.   I can say that I cannot say anything specific about Srebrenica.

 3     I was not present there in any capacity, not as a security person or a

 4     member of any commission, so that all of that is totally unfamiliar to

 5     me.

 6        Q.   Listen to the question carefully, if you can.  I'm asking you if

 7     you'd heard, not if you were there, not if you took part in a commission,

 8     if you heard about the 28th Division committing crimes against Serb

 9     civilians?

10        A.   That, yes, yes.  Kravica -- there would be other villages, too,

11     around Bratunac, around Srebrenica.  Yes, I heard that.

12        Q.   Serious crimes?

13        A.   I didn't get the translation.

14        Q.   Serious crimes, in your opinion?

15        A.   Serious crimes, yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  Well, this commission is set up, and these investigations

17     are set up in order to document/investigate these crimes.  There's

18     overwhelming evidence in this case about thousands and thousands of

19     Muslim men, after the fall of Srebrenica, being held in schools all over

20     Zvornik municipality.

21        A.   I'm not aware of that.

22        Q.   You're not aware of that?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Have you ever heard that, not just -- I mean, have you ever heard

25     that in the media, anywhere?

Page 24203

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   You're not aware of any commission set up to go to Zvornik and

 3     interview Muslim prisoners, are you, to see if they had committed crimes?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of any of that, definitely.

 5        Q.   Now, what was your job, what were your duties, in 1997?

 6        A.   In 1997, I was in Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka, within the staff unit

 7     of the General Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, to secure the

 8     General Staff command post and the infrastructure in that area.

 9        Q.   Right.  And you worked as a personnel officer at army post 74 --

10        A.   Yes, I wasn't working as a security organ at the time, but I was

11     working as a personnel officer, yes.

12        Q.   From 1997 until the end of December 2001; correct?

13        A.   Yes, when I retired.

14        Q.   And part of your job there had to do with paying VRS salaries;

15     correct?

16        A.   To pay salaries to members of that unit.

17        Q.   And you entered data as part of that job to make sure that

18     salaries were paid to members of that VRS unit in Han Pijesak; correct?

19        A.   Yes, correct.

20        Q.   And there was a salary differential in place then, where VRS

21     officers got paid a differential if they were to make the pay

22     commensurate to the JNA; correct?  Some officers received a salary

23     differential, and you were one of them; correct?

24        A.   Yes, correct, but I think that it was a little bit different.

25     I think the salary was higher at the time in the army of Republika Srpska

Page 24204

 1     than in the JNA, so that was the differential that was paid to the senior

 2     officers.

 3        Q.   You said it better than I did.  That's exactly right.  And one of

 4     those serious officers that was getting paid there at the time you were

 5     there was Ratko Mladic; correct?  He was on the list that you were

 6     processing?

 7        A.   Correct, but -- may I add something?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   At the time in 1997 -- 1996-1997, we received lists, salary

10     lists, from Banja Luka, and we entered data for it.  And General Mladic

11     was on the lists, but at the time there was no document, either from the

12     International Community or from any organ of Republika Srpska, to stop

13     paying salaries to any officer, including General Ratko Mladic, and this

14     is why the salaries were paid.

15        Q.   Well, you knew he was an indicted fugitive at that point, didn't

16     you, or is that something new you're learning today for the first time,

17     that Ratko Mladic has an indictment against him from this Tribunal?

18        A.   I found out later that there was an indictment at the time.  From

19     what I know, General Mladic was not in hiding.  He lived legally in

20     Belgrade, in his apartment.

21        Q.   So when you were there from 1997 to 2000, you didn't know he was

22     indicted, when he was getting these payments?

23        A.   In 1997, no.  Later, I didn't issue the payments, but I knew that

24     there had been an indictment issued.  But as I said, the principle of

25     subordination is well known, and certain officers cannot decide on their

Page 24205

 1     own if they are going to pay a salary to someone and to someone else not.

 2     And I repeat again, at that time there was no documentation issued either

 3     from the International Community or the authorities of Republika Srpska

 4     government, and at that time, and I'm speaking about 1997, I was not in a

 5     position to decide about that on my own.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  No further questions right now, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 8             Is there re-examination, Mr. Nikolic?

 9             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, a brief one.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Nikolic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, let's begin from this last item,

13     the payment of salary to General Mladic.  Can you please describe how

14     this was done, and what was your role in this?

15        A.   I already explained that we were the General Staff staff unit,

16     and our main assignment was to provide security for the post where the

17     General Staff headquarters was.  Then we received lists from Banja Luka

18     to pay out salaries.  We would just enter the workdays and what was

19     necessary for the work list to enter.  Once we filled that in, we would

20     return these lists to Banja Luka, and that is how the salaries were paid

21     out.

22        Q.   Thank you.  When we're talking about finding the perpetrators of

23     crimes, including very serious crimes, did the security organs of the

24     Main Staff primarily work on that, and which organs actually primarily

25     worked on this?

Page 24206

 1        A.   To discover crimes, well, according to the law, any senior

 2     officer that obtains information that a crime was committed is obliged to

 3     report this to the relevant authorities.  And the security organs, as

 4     part of their duties, were supposed to investigate or find out if such

 5     crimes had been committed.

 6        Q.   You said the security organs.  At which level?

 7        A.   Just repeat your question.

 8        Q.   From what level, from lower-ranking units or from the Main Staff?

 9        A.   You mean to find out if crimes had been committed?  Well, all the

10     organs had the task at the level from the lowest-ranking unit all the way

11     to the top-ranking unit, but as I said, when uncovering such acts, and I

12     cannot remember specifically, some time has passed since then, the

13     security organs are instructed on the methods and the means of operation,

14     and an organ could perhaps independently apply one method, perhaps an

15     informative talk, but all the other methods had to be approved by the

16     commander, and approval of the methods to be used would go from -- would

17     be issued by the commander, and then from higher up, from the staff.

18        Q.   When we're talking about this procedure, where does this

19     information go to, who is it handed over to?

20        A.   Once we got this information, this information would be passed on

21     to the military prosecutor.

22             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I have no

23     further questions.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

25             Judge Kwon, do you have any questions?  Judge Stole?

Page 24207

 1             Mr. Pereula, we haven't got any further questions for you.  Our

 2     staff will assist you and organise your return journey back home.  On

 3     behalf of the Tribunal, I wish to thank you for having come over to give

 4     testimony, and I also wish you a safe journey back home.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, do you have any documents?

 8             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No documents, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic?

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  We don't have any documents, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Nicholls?  Mr. Lazarevic -- but

12     Mr. Lazarevic asked a simple question on Borovcanin and --

13             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I don't want to tender.  I believe it's already

14     in evidence.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, okay.  I was taking it for granted that you

16     didn't have any.

17             Okay.  Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  One moment, Your Honour.  Sorry.

19             Yes, Your Honours, some of the ones I used were already in, and I

20     wanted to try to get that straight.  So it would be 3565, 3567, 3568.

21     I think that's it, Your Honours.  And 66, sorry.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

23             Any objections?  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

24             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No objections.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

Page 24208

 1             So that's it.  Yes, of course they are admitted, and let's go to

 2     the next witness.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we wait one second before we bring that

 4     witness in?

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

 6             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I am -- and I haven't had a chance

 8     to talk to my colleague about this, I apologise.  But I am told there is

 9     an order that this next witness, Mr. Jovanovic, that he has been -- is a

10     92 ter witness, which we welcome.  But I see a time estimate of 1.5 to 2

11     hours, so if we could just clarify that.  We are hoping we have ten or

12     fifteen minutes of -- as a normal 92 ter witness.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Let's deal with this first.

14             Mr. Nikolic.

15             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that the

16     Prosecution objected to 92 bis statements of these witnesses, then we can

17     now hear them as 92 ter witnesses.  We were not aware of that at first,

18     when we planned this much time in order to hear the testimony of these

19     witnesses.  So, in any case, the examination-in-chief will really not

20     take that long.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but how long will it take?

22             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I believe that I will need about 30

23     minutes for the examination-in-chief.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you.

25             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 24209

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's hard to say if this is a 92 ter witness,

 2     where a statement is going in, why 30 minutes is needed, but --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  We'll see.  In any case, there is something which

 4     is more important.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Anyway, yes, Mr. McCloskey, I see you

 7     standing again.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I don't know if this is an old witness

 9     list -- exhibit list, but there's many, many exhibits on this.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anyway, as we heard this morning, the Prosecution

11     has, indeed, filed a motion, which is called:  "Prosecution's

12     Supplemental Motion to Require the Beara Defence Team to Adhere to

13     Rule 65 ter, Rule 67(A)(ii), and the Trial Chamber's 27th May 2008

14     Order."

15             We have discussed this preliminarily, of course, also taking into

16     consideration the submissions that were made earlier by Mr. Gosnell,

17     Mr. Nikolic, and Mr. McCloskey, and, Mr. Nikolic, we require a definitive

18     reply from the Beara team, Defence team, by Wednesday - that's the day

19     after tomorrow - depending of course on outcome of -- on the reply and

20     the outcome of any discussions there might be between you and your

21     colleagues and also the Prosecution, of course.

22             We have -- we intend to hand down a decision by the end of the

23     week.  In the meantime, two witnesses are already at least in the

24     pipeline, in relation to whom some concerns were raised, and our

25     intention is to go along, but hear submissions as they may arise if any

Page 24210

 1     one of you encounters problems, and after hearing what you have to say,

 2     will take a decision separately on these two witnesses.

 3             So I'm saying, I'm limiting myself to these two witnesses,

 4     because we only heard some concerns being aired or being made in relation

 5     to them and not to others.  If there are others, too, of course by the

 6     time and until we hand down our decision, we will act more or less in the

 7     same way.

 8             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             As Mr. Nicholls had said, we are not making any -- we're ready to

11     go with these witnesses this week.

12             And what I had stated before about an exhibit list, I was looking

13     at my exhibit list.  We don't have an exhibit list from the Defence, so

14     that may not be a problem at all.  I apologise.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic doesn't seem surprised.

16             Do you have --

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, we don't, not for these

18     witnesses, no, we don't have any -- any documents.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So let's bring in the first one.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Jovanovic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Welcome to this Tribunal.  You are --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- the next witness summoned by the Beara Defence

Page 24211

 1     team in this case.  But before you start giving evidence, sir, you need

 2     to make a solemn declaration pursuant to our Rules, a solemn declaration

 3     that you will be testifying the truth.  Madam Usher, standing next to

 4     you, is going to hand you the text of this solemn declaration.  Go ahead,

 5     read it, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILADIN JOVANOVIC

 9                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

11             Mr. Nikolic will go first.  He will then be followed, upon

12     cross-examination, by others.

13             Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

14             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Examination by Mr. Nikolic:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovic.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   Before we start putting questions, I would like to introduce

19     myself, although we did meet already.  I'm Predrag Nikolic, representing

20     Mr. Beara in his Defence team.

21             Before you start replying and until you introduce yourself, a few

22     useful pieces of advice so that this conversation of ours can be

23     translated.  It's necessary for you always to wait after I complete

24     putting my question before beginning your answer so that the interpreters

25     could translate that.  Did we understand each other?

Page 24212

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Would you please now state your name for the record?

 3        A.   My name is Miladin Jovanovic.  I was born on the 16th of October,

 4     1952, in Bratunac, where I currently reside.  I'm married.  I have two

 5     children.

 6        Q.   What about your educational background, and what about your

 7     profession?

 8        A.   I graduated from the School of Electrical Engineering in Tuzla,

 9     and I'm currently the chief of electrical distribution for the area of

10     Bratunac and Srebrenica.

11        Q.   In the course of the war, where were you, between 1992 and 1995?

12        A.   Between 1992 and sometime the end of my [as interpreted] 1993, I

13     was the general manager of the electrical distribution company in

14     Bratunac, and after that, up until the end of the war, I was militarily

15     engaged as a foot soldier.

16        Q.   And what unit were you assigned to?

17        A.   I was assigned to artillery, and I belonged to the Special

18     Purposes Unit of rocket-launcher crews.

19        Q.   Where was it deployed?

20        A.   This unit was deployed in the suburbs of Bratunac on the road

21     towards Ljubovija in the construction material depot called Javar [phoen]

22     Bratunac.

23        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, you provided a statement to our investigator

24     concerning the events surrounding combat activities around Srebrenica.

25     Tell me, please, where were you around that time?

Page 24213

 1        A.   At that time, I was in my military unit, and I've already told

 2     you that it was in the suburbs on the Bratunac-Ljubovija road.  And on

 3     that particular day, I was scheduled to be on duty in my unit.

 4        Q.   Did you know Jovan [Realtime transcript read in error "Drago"]

 5     Nikolic?

 6        A.   I knew Jovan Nikolic.  I had known him for a long time.  He

 7     resided in the same town for a long time.  He was a politician.  He was

 8     the president of the Socialist Alliance, he was the principal of the

 9     school in Bratunac, and on that particular day he was the general manager

10     of the farming cooperative in Bratunac.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment.  Ms. Nikolic.

12             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, transcript, page 73,

13     line 4, can we repeat the name of the person that the witness is

14     currently testifying about in order to clarify the transcript?

15             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Transcript 73, line 4, your answer is recorded as

17     "Drago Nikolic."  I asked you whether you knew Jovan Nikolic.

18        A.   Yes, we're talking about Jovan Nikolic.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So on the eve of the events in Srebrenica that we're

20     talking about, he was the general manager of the farming cooperative,

21     wasn't he?

22        A.   Yes, he was.

23        Q.   Around that time, did you have any communication with him, and

24     what was the occasion if you did?

25        A.   Nothing special happened around that time.  We did not have any

Page 24214

 1     special contacts.  The farming cooperative bordered on the premises where

 2     I was billeted together with my unit, and whenever I saw him, we would

 3     just exchange greetings, we would just exchange a few general comments,

 4     nothing special.

 5        Q.   Around that time, did he ask for any favours from you?

 6        A.   Look, he was the general manager of the cooperative, and I've

 7     just told you that just an iron fence separated our two facilities, and

 8     on that evening when the incident in Kravica took place, Jovan Nikolic

 9     came to me and asked me whether I could take him to Kravica.  That may

10     have been around 2200 hours that evening.

11        Q.   Did you take him to Kravica then?

12        A.   Yes.  That's what I said in my statement.  I took Mr. Jovan

13     Nikolic and two other men, Perica Vasovic and Mr. Eric, whose first name

14     I can't remember at the moment, to Kravica that night.  We stayed in

15     Kravica between 15 and 20 minutes.  I can't be sure of the time, exactly.

16        Q.   And then Jovan Nikolic and the persons that you've just

17     mentioned, Perica Vasovic and the third person, did they come to you

18     together, asking you for a ride, or did you just pick them up on the way?

19        A.   Jovan Nikolic came to ask me --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Nikolic, we have a specific, special procedure

21     when it comes to Rule 92 ter, and it is certainly not the one that you

22     have chosen.  Basically, you need to refer the witness to his written

23     statement, the one that you would have circulated under that Rule, under

24     92 ter, which for all intents and purposes, basically, the

25     examination-in-chief, and then ask him whether he attests that that

Page 24215

 1     written statement or evidence, that the transcript of that evidence,

 2     reflects accurately his declaration and what he would say if he were to

 3     be examined on the same issues and matters now.

 4             And then depending, of course, on his answer, you fill in any

 5     blanks that there are, you clarify any issues that may still remain

 6     undealt with in the statement, and there we are very flexible.  We've

 7     been very flexible with the Prosecution, when it's been the case, and we

 8     have no intention of not being flexible -- equally flexible with you all,

 9     but we have to follow the procedure.  In other words, you can't adopt a

10     92 ter procedure, and then pretending that that does not exist, and

11     putting all the questions that you would have put to the witness if there

12     had not been this either 92 bis or 92 ter.

13             In the meantime, I'll give you time to organise yourself.  It's

14     time for a break, and I think it's an hour's break.  Correct?  It's an

15     hour's break, and then we have ...

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.49 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.57 p.m.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

19             Now, Mr. Nikolic, I suppose you got the message, so we should be

20     able to conclude.  And please do go straight to what is required by the

21     third paragraph of 92 ter.

22             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  This is exactly

23     what I intend to do.

24        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, you provided a statement to our investigator,

25     Milan Stanic; is that correct?

Page 24216

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you remember when that was?

 3        A.   I don't.

 4        Q.   It says in the statement that it was in April 2007.

 5        A.   That's possible.

 6        Q.   In the statement, did you speak about your departure for Kravica?

 7     This is what we tackled just before the break.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Previous translation continues]... this statement,

10     you still have to ask him using -- I mean, doing it the way the

11     Prosecution was instructed by us to go about it, whether the witness

12     attests, or confirms, in other words, that the statement you just

13     referred him to - if he needs to see it, we give it to him - accurately

14     reflects his declaration and what he would say if he were to be examined

15     on exactly the same issues today.  You need to clear that hurdle first,

16     and then go to supplementing or clarifying anything that is necessary,

17     but not beyond that.

18             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, we have just heard that you signed the statement.

20     If you were to speak about the same things today, would you say the same

21     thing and would you sign them?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I'm going to show you the statement and ask you to confirm

24     whether the signature on the statement is indeed yours.

25             Could you please be so kind and provide the statement to the

Page 24217

 1     witness.

 2        A.   This is my signature.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  The questions that you were asked in the statement,

 4     would you provide the same answers to them today?

 5        A.   Yes, I would.

 6        Q.   And the part that refers to your arrival in Kravica, would that

 7     be the same?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And also the part that refers to the conversation that took place

10     in your car on your return from Kravica?

11        A.   Well, I'm faced with a dilemma here.  This is not so much about

12     the statement as it is about my true recollection, as it was at the time.

13             Kravica, as a case, was a very difficult case.  Those were the

14     days that I would gladly erase from my memory, if I could.  When it comes

15     to the Kravica case, there are lots of rumours and stories going around

16     in Bratunac at the time, starting with somebody saying that a soldier was

17     strangled with bare hands by the detainees.  There was also a story that

18     he was killed from a rifle, another one according to which he had been

19     run over.  This all created a chaos in my head, and I sit here, I really

20     can't remember what I heard at what specific period of time.

21        Q.   Just a moment, Mr. Jovanovic.  When I asked you whether you would

22     adhere to your statement and whether you would provide the same answers

23     about the conversations that you -- conversation that you had in your

24     car, let me tell you that in your statement, you confirmed that you did

25     not say anything.

Page 24218

 1        A.   I would still adhere to that as I sit here today.

 2             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I have no

 3     further questions.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  So we come to the conclusion of Mr. Nikolic.

 5             Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nikolic, can I have the 65 ter number of the

 7     statement?

 8             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Just bear with me for a moment,

 9     please.

10             I apologise.  I'm not sure about the number.  Would I please be

11     allowed to provide this to you a bit later?  I don't want to make any

12     mistakes that would need to be corrected later.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'll not cross-examine this witness, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

16             Ms. Nikolic.

17             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Likewise, no questions.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Lazarevic.

20             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  It seems that my

21     cross-examination will not last as long as I indicated.  I mean, it's

22     significantly reduced by the examination-in-chief.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovic.  Just for the

Page 24219

 1     record, my name is Aleksandar Lazarevic.  I represent Mr. Ljubomir

 2     Borovcanin, together with my colleagues, Ms. Cmeric and

 3     Christopher Gosnell.  We represent Mr. Borovcanin, and in his illness, on

 4     his behalf I would like to ask you a few questions that concern your

 5     statement and your testimony.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can, in the meantime, we have -- is it in the

 7     statement as it is in e-court already or not?

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go ahead, and then we'll see if we need

10     to intervene.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It is my understanding

12     that it is P3595 in the e-court.

13             [Interpretation] I would like to call up document number P1536

14     [Realtime transcript read in error "P1356"] in e-court.  This is a photo,

15     an aerial photo.  1563 is the number.  I apologise.  There seems to be a

16     mistake in the record.

17        Q.   Mr. Jovanovic, do you recognise the facility that you see in this

18     aerial photo?

19        A.   Yes, I can.  This is the farming cooperative in Kravica.

20        Q.   Thank you very much.  And now I would like to ask the assistance

21     of the usher.  I would like to have the witness mark certain things in

22     the photo.

23             As it is, you draw the pen across the screen, you will make a

24     mark, just to let you know how it's done.

25             First of all, could you please place an arrow by the road, and

Page 24220

 1     put a letter "B" next to it to denote the direction that you have to take

 2     to go to Bratunac.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And now if I understood your testimony correctly, and

 5     if I understood the statement you provided to the Beara team correctly,

 6     together with the other persons whom you have mentioned, you took a car,

 7     in the evening in Bratunac, and you arrived in the farming cooperative in

 8     Kravica.  Could you please mark, in this photo, the direction from which

 9     you came and the route that you took in order to get there?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  For the record, let us just say that the

12     dotted line represents the road that the witness took together with the

13     others to arrive at his destination.

14             If we look at this aerial photo and your markings on it, we can

15     see that on the way from Bratunac, you turned left and then right, and

16     that is where the entrance into the farming compound at Kravica is

17     located; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And let me ask you this:  If you take a car and if you want to

20     enter the compound of the Kravica farming cooperative, is this the only

21     way to do it?  Is there some other side gate through which you can take

22     your car in?

23        A.   No, there's no such thing.  This is the only way you can enter

24     the compound by car.

25        Q.   Around the entire compound, there is a fence, isn't there?

Page 24221

 1        A.   Yes, there is an iron fence which fences the compound off.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much.  Could you now put your initials and today's

 3     date in the right lower corner of this photo?

 4        A.   [Marks] What is the date today, please?  28th.  [Marks]

 5             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6             And now I would like to display the document again, another clean

 7     copy of document number 1563 without the witness's markings on it.

 8        Q.   Here, you have the same photo again, and I would like to ask you

 9     to mark the place where the car stopped on that night, on the 13th.

10     Could you please give us the exact position of the place where your car

11     stopped?

12        A.   I have just one question.  Do you want me to mark the place that

13     I reached or where I left the car when I returned?

14        Q.   Both.  First, can you mark the place where you stopped the car?

15        A.   Then it would be number 1 [Marks].

16        Q.   Very well, then, thank you.

17        A.   And then there is also a place number 2 [marks].

18        Q.   In order for us to be able to understand what you're talking

19     about, let us put it this way:  First you stopped at location number 1.

20     Then you made a U-turn or you turned around within the compound, and you

21     returned to place number 2, and this is where you parked your car; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  Could you also put your initials and

25     today's date in the bottom right corner.

Page 24222

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   At the moment when you arrived -- this document can be saved, but

 3     I would like the witness to be able to see it still.

 4             At the moment when you arrived at the place that you marked "1,"

 5     according to your testimony or, rather, according to your statement, you

 6     heard an order for all -- for the lights to be turned down?

 7        A.   The order was, "Turn off your light and go back."

 8        Q.   And you complied with the order.  You turned around in your car.

 9     Then you returned to place number 2?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Your passengers who were in the car on that evening, Eric, Jovo

12     Nikolic and Perica Vasovic, where did they leave the car?  Did they leave

13     the car in place number 1 or place number 2?

14        A.   In place number 1.

15        Q.   This means that they got out of the car, you double-parked, then

16     you heard the order for lights to be dimmed and for you to return --

17        A.   And that's when I returned.

18        Q.   Thank you very much.  I believe that this explains quite a bit of

19     things.  And let me now ask you this:  When you were there, did Jovo

20     Nikolic carry anything in his hands?  Did he have anything in his hands?

21        A.   No, he didn't.  As far as I can remember, he didn't have

22     anything.

23        Q.   And while you were sitting in the car, although the photo

24     illustrates that pretty well, you could not see what the three of them

25     were doing?

Page 24223

 1        A.   I could not see that.  There was no line of vision, first of all.

 2     And, second of all, it was already night.  It must have been around

 3     10.00, half past 10.00 in the evening by then.

 4        Q.   And let me ask you something else.  Did you get out of the car at

 5     all or did you remain sitting in the car?

 6        A.   I did not get out of the car at all.

 7        Q.   While you were sitting in the car, did you hear a loud argument,

 8     a quarrel?  Could you maybe discern the voices of Jovan Nikolic of -- or

 9     any other of your passengers or somebody else?  Do you remember that?

10        A.   I heard some swear words, which I cannot repeat because I can't

11     remember, but I remember that there was some swearing going on.  But I

12     did not understand everything well.  I don't know, there must have been

13     also an element of fear present.

14        Q.   And approximately how long did you remain sitting in your car

15     before your passengers returned?

16        A.   I believe some 15 minutes or so.

17        Q.   Did the three of them get to the car?

18        A.   Yes, they did.

19        Q.   Did you get out of the car at all when you see them approaching,

20     or did you remain sitting and they got into the car?

21        A.   They just got in.  I never left the car, never got out, myself.

22        Q.   While you were in the car, waiting for your passengers, did you

23     hear any shots, any shots fired?

24        A.   Yes, I did hear shots coming from various directions.  It was

25     night, so it was very hard for me to tell where those shots came from.

Page 24224

 1     It's pretty much enclosed with the hills.  There was a lot of echo, so

 2     it's not very easy for me to tell where the shots came from.  My feeling

 3     was that there were shots coming from all over the place.

 4        Q.   So you can't tell us precisely whether the shots came from the

 5     hills, from the direction of the hangar, or from east or south?

 6        A.   No, I can't.  It was night, it was very quiet, so the hills were

 7     resounding and it was impossible to tell.

 8        Q.   And can you please tell us whether those shots came from various

 9     directions or just from one direction?

10        A.   My opinion is that they came from all over the place, from

11     different directions.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  I would like us to deal with just one more

13     issue.

14             You gave the statement, but let us clarify this.  Did you see any

15     persons in uniform or any other persons within the compounds of the

16     Kravica farming co-op?

17        A.   I did not see anyone, except for this shadow of this man who

18     ordered me to turn my car back and to go back where I came from, and I

19     didn't see anyone else.

20        Q.   When you say "shadow," a silhouette, does that mean that you

21     cannot tell -- that you cannot tell us any details about what kind of

22     clothes that person was wearing, what age that person was?

23        A.   I couldn't say that.  I told you it was at night, it was at 2200

24     hours, 2230, it was dark.  And also I was a driver.  I was there to

25     operate the vehicle.

Page 24225

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  Today, in answer to questions asked by

 2     Mr. Nikolic, who also examined you, you said that from July 1995 until

 3     now, there have been many stories, rumours, about what had happened, how

 4     it had happened, and I assume that even today this is a topic that crops

 5     up in conversation among the people there in Bratunac.  Am I correct?

 6        A.   In those ten days or so, that was the burning issue in the town,

 7     the key topic.

 8        Q.   And even after those events, people talked about it, and they

 9     indeed talk about it today?

10        A.   Yes, people talk about it to this day, because it was a specific

11     day, a key day that remained in the memories of the people there, and

12     nobody can forget that.

13        Q.   As you've already told us, those stories are different stories?

14        A.   Well, you know what people are like.  When a story is recycled

15     twice or three times, everybody embellishes on it.  Details are added all

16     the time.  Everybody adds their own little thing.  So there were various

17     versions of it.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just ask you one more question.

19             As far as I can recall, the first time that you gave your

20     statement was in 2005.

21        A.   Yes, in Sarajevo.

22        Q.   So that's ten years from the time of the events; is that right?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Do you think that this fact that we mentioned a little while ago,

25     that there were so many different stories, that you heard different

Page 24226

 1     versions, and that people were talking about over this period of ten

 2     years, do you think that this fact may have influenced or, indeed, did

 3     influence your testimony, the statement that you gave, in which you

 4     detailed what you remember?

 5        A.   Well, those stories could not affect the key elements of the

 6     story, the essence of the story, but they did create this chaos in my

 7     brain, because I can no longer tell when I learned some of the -- some

 8     specific piece of information.  Because of this deluge of information, I

 9     cannot tell you whether I heard something on the 13th, the 14th, the

10     15th, the 25th and so on, because this was talked about at the time and

11     it is still talked about.

12             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

13     Mr. Jovanovic.  I don't have any further questions for you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madame Fauveau.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

18             MR. JOSSE:  The same, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Sarapa.  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

20             MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No questions.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.  Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I apologise.  Maybe I should have

23     raised this while still on my feet.

24             But bearing in mind that we have just received this witness's

25     testimony in the State Court in Bosnia, it was only an hour ago and we

Page 24227

 1     only received an audiotape and we didn't have time to listen to these

 2     tapes, I would like to ask the Trial Chamber to reserve the right for

 3     some additional cross or something once my learned colleague finishes.

 4     Just that would allow us to familiarise ourselves with the content of

 5     this statement.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.

 7             What do you have to say to that, Mr. Nikolic?

 8             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No objections.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  And the Prosecution?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

12             Now, it has come to you, Mr. McCloskey.  Cross-examination.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey.

15             THE WITNESS:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Jovanovic.  My name's Peter McCloskey.  I'm

17     with the Office of the Prosecutor and I'll have a few questions for you.

18             The first thing I want to do is if we can get up the 92 ter

19     statement on -- I believe we're going to have to use the ELMO.  It should

20     be 3595, but I'm told it's not in e-court.  And it's only in English, so

21     if we could just put the first page of that on the ELMO.

22             And, sir, I'm sorry that this is just for the English audience.

23     I will -- if we could just put the first page up there, and if we

24     could -- yeah, that should do it right there.

25             I'll read slowly to you the section that I want to ask you about.

Page 24228

 1     It's basically the section where you get to the warehouse.  You say:

 2     "The director of the cooperative at the time was Jovan Nikolic.  He came

 3     to me that evening and asked me to give him a ride to the Kravica

 4     cooperative, which was an extension of the Bratunac cooperative.  Jovan

 5     had information that something strange was happening at the Kravica

 6     cooperative.  I took him to Kravica.  With us in the car were Perica

 7     Vasovic and the late Miso Eric.  I drove up to the cooperative compound.

 8     They exited from the car.  I turned around and parked the vehicle behind

 9     the building in the compound.  I remained in the car and did not go out.

10     About 15 minutes later, Jovan, Perica, and Miso returned to the car, and

11     we all went back to Bratunac.  While waiting in the car, I heard gunshots

12     coming from everywhere.  When they came back to the car, Jovan, Perica

13     and Miso did not make any particular comments.  We were all frightened by

14     that frequent gunfire and sought to get away as soon as possible."

15             Okay.  Does that remind you of the statement that you were asked

16     about by Mr. Nikolic that you agreed to?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  Now I want to take you to another statement you made.

19     This is 65 ter 3592, and let me give you a Serbian copy of that report,

20     because it's a report dated 21 September 2005 from Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina, Ministry of Security, State Investigation and Protection

22     Agency, War Crimes Investigations Centre.  Can we give that to you?  I've

23     made some blue marks on it just to show you the part I'm going to ask you

24     about.

25             Perhaps counsel wants to see where I made some marks.  The top

Page 24229

 1     mark was a mistake.  Ignore that one.  The underlines was the ones I'm

 2     meaning to talk about.

 3             So, sir, do you recall giving a statement in Bosnia to the State

 4     War Crimes Investigators back on 21 September 2005?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's go to page 5 of that statement in the English.

 7     It's page 3 in the B/C/S, but the witness has the page in front of him,

 8     and I underlined the section where you get to the warehouse and I want to

 9     read that out to you now and ask you some questions.

10             Basically, in the middle of the page in the English, and it's

11     about two-thirds of the way down the page in the Serbian, you say:  "I

12     remained in the vehicle while my three passengers went to the

13     administrative building of the cooperative, which is on the right-hand

14     side from the entrance to the premises.  While I was sitting in the

15     vehicle, I heard bursts of gunfire and individual shots from infantry

16     weapons coming from everywhere, and from the direction of the hangar,

17     human screaming, cries and swearing could be heard.  I found it quite

18     gruesome.  We stayed there for approximately half an hour, when Djole and

19     Perica got into the vehicle, and then we returned together to Bratunac,

20     where I dropped off Djole and Perica in front of the residential building

21     Lamela, where Djole lived then and where he lives today.

22             "I returned to my regular activities in the unit, that is to say,

23     to my duty.  I cannot recall whether Miso Eric came back with us.  I

24     learnt, from the conversation in the car that night on our way back to

25     Kravica from Djole, that a group of captured Muslims from the area of

Page 24230

 1     Srebrenica was in the hangar.  He did not say how many were there, but he

 2     did say that this group was guarded by special police from Skelani and

 3     that they had problems guarding them because they were not kept in an

 4     enclosed area.  Djole also said that one of the members of the special

 5     unit was strangled by Muslim prisoners that day and that members of the

 6     special unit were asking their command to send a rotation of troops or

 7     reinforcement because they were too exhausted to endure it physically."

 8             Do you stand by the information in that statement to the BiH that

 9     I just read?

10        A.   I tried to explain a little while ago the discrepancy between the

11     statement that was given in Sarajevo and the statement that I gave the

12     last time, my last statement, and I say the same thing.  I am no longer

13     certain.  I know that I had this information in my head, but I don't

14     know -- I can't determine the timeline as to where and when I got

15     specific pieces of information.

16             The fact is that I do have this piece of information that a

17     soldier was killed, and I have this piece of information that chaos

18     ensued.  I gave you various versions of it.  They were different

19     versions, how this unrest occurred and how this soldier was killed, but

20     to this day, after all those statements, no matter how hard I try to

21     actually remember, I can no longer be certain when, on what day, at what

22     time, I actually heard it.

23        Q.   Well, that wasn't my question.  My question was:  Having looked

24     at this statement that you gave in 2005, when this would have been

25     fresher in your memory, do you stand by that statement?

Page 24231

 1        A.   Well, I've tried to explain to you that I cannot stand by that

 2     statement, because I am no longer certain whether I heard that on that

 3     night or at some other time.

 4        Q.   Do you remember being asked pretty much a very similar question

 5     by the State Court Prosecutor a few months ago, whether you stood by that

 6     statement?  This was in a trial, the Kravica trial at the State Court.

 7        A.   Well, I said that Kravica is something that is quite striking,

 8     something really gruesome.  This is not something that you can forget.

 9     But the timeline, the chronology, please believe me when I say that I

10     cannot say when I learnt of this or that.

11        Q.   Sir, I just ask you if you remember testifying in Sarajevo in the

12     State Court case.

13        A.   Well, I said that I remember that.  I remember that I was in

14     court.

15        Q.   When was that?

16        A.   2005.  I don't know the exact date, but you can see it here.

17     It's --

18        Q.   Sir, I'm talking about your testimony on the 4th of July, 2006.

19        A.   Well, yes, that's when I testified as a witness in Sarajevo, and

20     that's when I provided the statement, but I am not sure whether at that

21     time I was right.

22        Q.   I understand that.  Do you know Ljubisa Borovcanin?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   And how do you know him?

25        A.   Ljubisa Borovcanin worked in the Bratunac SUP before the war, and

Page 24232

 1     I personally knew him.

 2        Q.   Well, he was in the Bratunac police station during the war, was

 3     he not?

 4        A.   Not all the time, but for a while, yes.

 5        Q.   Was he there during the famous Muslim attack on the village of

 6     Kravica?

 7        A.   I don't know that, because I was just a rank-and-file soldier,

 8     and I didn't know who was assigned where.

 9        Q.   I didn't ask you who was assigned where.  I just -- do you

10     remember that Mr. Borovcanin was a police officer in Bratunac at that

11     time?

12        A.   I don't think so.

13        Q.   What was his position when he was there, that you recall?  He

14     wasn't just a regular police officer, was he?

15        A.   He was the police commander, the police commander.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, let me go over a little bit in this statement

17     just briefly to see how you're -- what you can help us with.

18             In this statement you gave in 2005, you said that from the

19     direction of the hangar, you could hear human screaming, cries.  Is that

20     true?

21        A.   That's true, yes.  I heard those inarticulate screams, cries,

22     cursing.

23        Q.   Okay.  And then you say:  "I learned from the conversation in the

24     car that night on our way back to Kravica, from Djole, that a group of

25     captured Muslims from the area of Srebrenica was in the hangar.  He did

Page 24233

 1     not say how many were there, but he did say that this group was guarded

 2     by special police from Skelani."

 3             Do you remember Djole telling you that these Muslims were guarded

 4     by special police from Skelani?

 5         A.  I do know that these people were guarded by a group from Skelani,

 6   because the man, the soldier, who was killed was from Skelani. So, this is

 7   just a logical piece of information, that a group of soldiers from Skelani

 8     guarded those people, because this man who was killed was from Skelani.

 9        Q.   That's correct.  But in this statement, you tell the police that

10     Djole provided that information to you when you were coming back from the

11     car, that the guys guarding these Muslims were special police from

12     Skelani.  It's nothing about anybody getting -- nothing about a

13     particular guy from Skelani getting killed.

14        A.   Well, I am really trying to explain to you that I'm not in a

15     position to confirm, with 100 per cent certainty, whether I heard this

16     information that evening or some other day.

17        Q.   You trust that information, that these -- it was people from

18     Skelani that were guarding these Muslims, from the special police?

19        A.   I didn't say that they were members of the special police;

20     I know that people from Skelani guarded them, because if the man who

21     was killed was from Skelani then it is only logical that men from Skelani

22     had provided security and guarded those people in OKI Kravica.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Re-examination, Mr. Nikolic?

25             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

Page 24234

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Judge Kwon?

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I don't need any additional cross-examination,

 3     just to inform the Trial Chamber.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Judge Kwon?  Judge Prost?  Judge Stole?

 5             So we've come to the end of your testimony, Mr. Jovanovic.  Our

 6     staff will help you to arrange the return journey back home.  On behalf

 7     of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over, and we

 8     also wish you a safe journey back home.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Nikolic.

11             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I owe you the document's number on

12     65 ter list.  The statement is 2D554.  That's the statement that this

13     witness provided to us.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you so much.

15             I take it you don't have any other documents, apart from the

16     statement, Mr. Nikolic.

17             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, we don't.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So the statement is, of course, in the

19     records, being admitted.

20             Mr. Lazarevic.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I have two documents to

22     tender.  One is 4DIC208 and 4DIC209, and these are photographs of the

23     Kravica warehouse marked by the witness.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  And I take it there are no objections

25     by either Mr. Nikolic or anyone else, for that matter.

Page 24235

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  No objection?

 3             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No objections.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Previous translation continues]... so admitted.

 5             Mr. McCloskey, do you have any documents?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I would offer that 21

 7     September 2005 interview/statement of the witness.  While I did read in

 8     the part that I was most interested in there, there's just another half

 9     page that really puts it in more context.  So I think it may be helpful

10     to the Court to have that other half to three quarters of a page, just so

11     you can see the whole thing, especially in light of the fact that we're

12     dealing with a 92 ter statement, and this, I think, will be helpful in

13     looking at that.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections?

15             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I object to this.  It wouldn't be in the line of

16     previous decisions by this Trial Chamber and rulings.  Relevant parts of

17     these statements have been read out to the witness.  Whatever

18     Mr. McCloskey wanted to put to the witness is already -- is already

19     contained in the transcript.  We have a date.  We have a body to which

20     this statement was given, we have everything, so there is absolutely no

21     need for this statement to be tendered into evidence.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  But what's the problem with half a page that would

23     help put the part that was read in more context?  What's the problem with

24     that?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, frankly, I don't -- I obviously got the

Page 24236

 1     incriminating part in, so I think this is just context, and this is a

 2     statement of the -- of the witness.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

 4             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, yes, if this is the case, just to give

 5     context to what Mr. McCloskey read out, then it's -- then I have no

 6     problem with this.  But what I would like just not to make some sort of

 7     precedent out of this situation, to tender something which is --

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fair enough.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC:  -- couldn't be evidence.  This was only for the

10     impeachment purpose, my understanding is that this is what Mr. McCloskey

11     used just to challenge the credibility of the witness.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't think we -- that particular adversarial

15     piece, I think you should be able to look at this for whatever value you

16     want to give it.  We don't -- something this simple, on the statement of

17     the own witness, is something that you should give it whatever value you

18     want, be it impeachment, or substance, or whatever else.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Any further comments on the Prosecution

20     motion?  All right.  So that piece that was read, together with the rest

21     that Mr. McCloskey will indicate to the parties and to our Registrar --

22     I think -- you don't want the whole statement to be admitted, do you?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's really a two-page statement, and so

24     that's -- it pretty much amounts to the whole statement.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  The whole statement, we

Page 24237

 1     are not admitting it in substitution of his evidence, in any case.  All

 2     right.  Well, I didn't know because ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So that is admitted, with this

 5     understanding:  that obviously it's not being admitted as a substitution

 6     of the witness's viva voce evidence today.

 7             Anything else in relation to this witness?  Nothing.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we will get a transcript of the --

 9     of the --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Testimony.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- testimony, and it may be relevant, the parts

12     that I asked him about.  Right now, I'm going on kind of notes of

13     listening to the audio, and we may provide you some answers on that

14     later.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, but we need to have this clear.

16     Mr. Lazarevic was clear enough and asked to have his right reserved in

17     case he needs to call the witness for further cross-examination.  Do you

18     want to do the same?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I would follow their lead on it.  I don't

20     think, from what I know, that that will be necessary, but I think the

21     transcript will just provide you with some more information on what this

22     person has said.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, okay.

24             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, I think I clearly indicated that I

25     will not require any additional cross, so we are through with this

Page 24238

 1     witness.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 3             Let's bring in the next witness.

 4             Mr. Ostojic, in the beginning of today's sitting, about 20

 5     minutes were dedicated to a problem that Mr. Gosnell, sitting right

 6     behind you, raised.  And in it you all had the comfort of Mr. McCloskey

 7     from the Prosecution side, that the testimony of this last witness and

 8     the one who was about to testify, testimony in the Kravica trial in

 9     Sarajevo had not been made available, and that was causing problems, in

10     the sense that they didn't know whether they would be in a position to

11     cross-examine these two witnesses today.  So far, we have managed to

12     plough ahead.

13             The same position applies in relation to this witness.  If we

14     need to postpone cross-examination, we will do so.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good afternoon, Mr. Vasovic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  And welcome to this Tribunal.  You're about to

19     start giving evidence, and before you do so, our Rules require that you

20     make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth.

21             Please read that in a way that we can hear you, and that will be

22     your solemn undertaking with us.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  PERICA VASOVIC

Page 24239

 1                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 3             You've been summoned as a Defence witness by Colonel Beara or by

 4     his Defence team, so they will go first, and then cross-examination by

 5     others will follow.

 6             Mr. Nikolic, I take it.

 7             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This time, I'll stick

 8     to the procedure.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Nikolic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vasovic.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   Let me introduce myself.  My name is Predrag Nikolic.  I

13     represent Ljubisa Beara together with the rest of the Defence team.

14     Before we start with the examination-in-chief, could you please state

15     your name for the record, and can you also give your date of birth, the

16     place of birth, and your father's name.  And before that, let me just

17     instruct you to make a pause between my question and your answer to allow

18     the interpreters to do their job properly.

19        A.   Perica Vasovic.  My father's name, Dragomir.  My mother's name is

20     Dasinka [phoen].  I was born in 1961, in Srbica, in Serbia.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   You're welcome.

23        Q.   Mr. Vasovic, you provided a statement to our investigator about

24     the events surrounding Kravica.  Do you remember that, and when was it?

25        A.   Yes, I provided a statement.  I don't know exactly when.

Page 24240

 1        Q.   In that statement, you spoke about your departure on the 13th of

 2     July to the facilities of the farming cooperative in Kravica.  You stated

 3     who you went with on that evening, and you also provided a statement

 4     about what happened that night.

 5             Also in your statement, you spoke about the circumstances of your

 6     second departure to Kravica on the following day, on the 14th of July.

 7     Amongst other things, you also said that you knew Colonel Beara and that

 8     you were aware of the circumstances of you seeing him in Bratunac or not.

 9             Was I able to sum up your statement?

10        A.   Yes, you were able to sum up my statement pretty correctly.

11        Q.   I'm now going to show your statement.  I'm going to ask the usher

12     to help us with that, and I am going to ask you whether the statement

13     contains your signature.

14        A.   This is my signature.  It's correct.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Before I move on, let me just clarify one ambiguity

16     in translation.

17             When I mentioned Colonel Beara, just for clarification, could you

18     please tell us what you said to our investigator about Colonel Beara?

19        A.   When it comes to Colonel Beara, I said that I knew Colonel Beara,

20     although I didn't know him personally.  I remember, when he came to

21     Bratunac, a soldier, a member of the Bratunac Brigade, pointed him out to

22     me.

23        Q.   When did you see him?

24        A.   It was in 1994.  I can't remember the exact date.  It was just a

25     chance sighting of him.

Page 24241

 1        Q.   And did you see him after that in Bratunac in that period during

 2     combat around Srebrenica?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   Mr. Vasovic, with regard to everything that I said, is this your

 5     statement, and if you were asked the same things today, would your

 6     answers be identical?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I have no

 9     further questions.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             The 65 ter number of this 92 ter statement, please.

12             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.  Bear with

13     me, Your Honours.

14             2D555.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No questions for this witness.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'll ask the Registrar not to pay you any fees,

19     because you haven't been putting any cross-examination to these

20     witnesses.

21             Ms. Nikolic.

22             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  No questions,

23     Your Honour.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Lazarevic.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Well, Your Honour, I do have cross-examination

Page 24242

 1     for this witness.  However, I don't believe I'll be ready to do so right

 2     now, bearing in mind all the circumstances.  We were relying on some

 3     estimation, both by the Defence team of Mr. Nikolic, also to the

 4     Prosecution.  Our estimation was also a bit bigger than we initially

 5     thought, and particularly having in light the existence of the audiotape

 6     for this witness that we would like to listen to, I would like to

 7     postpone my cross-examination for tomorrow just to be prepared, and I can

 8     assure the Trial Chamber it will be a very brief one.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I want to clarify one thing.

10             This audiotape, as I understood -- I may have understood

11     Mr. McCloskey earlier on, but it seems that this was handed to you way

12     back in March.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Correct?

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  You are correct, sir.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  I usually am, but ...

17             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             We were provided with literally thousands and thousands of

19     various materials from the Prosecution, and in particular -- I am

20     speaking this very frankly.  In particular when it's about audiotapes,

21     which are a time-consuming job listening to it, I must say that I didn't

22     pay attention to this very fact.  Even Mr. Nicholls couldn't say that

23     from the top of his head whether it was disclosed or not and when it was

24     and...

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's mull about it.  I'll -- we'll

Page 24243

 1     tell you what we're going to do.

 2             Ms. Fauveau.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

 5             MR. JOSSE:  Well, I'm very concerned, Your Honour, about your

 6     comments to Mr. Zivanovic, because if he's in that particular position

 7     what about team?  We've got no questions at all.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Sarapa.

10             MR. SARAPA:  No questions.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  There are two options, option is we stop here 30

12     minutes before our timed finish, or else we make an exception; you go

13     first this time and then Mr. Lazarevic will cross-examine the witness

14     tomorrow, if you have got nothing against it.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  I am reluctant to do that, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Why?

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, because I would like to be able to keep the

18     current order and see what comes out on my friend's cross and be able to

19     deal with it.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  With reluctance, the three of us -- the four of us,

22     sorry, we at this point prefer to adjourn, and you will continue going

23     first tomorrow, Mr. Lazarevic.

24             The other concern that we have is that this gentleman was

25     scheduled to testify tomorrow, in any case, but he was the only witness

Page 24244

 1     on schedule tomorrow.  Then there is the next one, who needs to be ready,

 2     because we're definitely going to finish with this witness during the

 3     first session tomorrow, even before it ends.  So the next witness,

 4     Mr. Mirkovic, needs to be present as well so that we start with his

 5     evidence.

 6             Is he also 92 ter?

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I don't believe he is, Your Honour, and he will be

 8     ready and will have him present here.  I understand that he flew in or

 9     was in flying this morning.  I just haven't had confirmation that he's

10     arrived, but he was supposed to be here approximately at 10.30.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  And then we are left with the last one, who is

12     summoned by three of you, Radovanovic.  There is a great possibility that

13     we could finish Thursday, if not before, but we have got until Friday.

14     And believe me, some of us have really made a sacrifice to be here until

15     Friday so that we carry on.

16             Is there a possibility of getting at least another witness for

17     this week?

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Regrettably, there is not, Mr. President.  We

19     estimated as best as we could, with the estimates of the Prosecution and

20     the co-accused, and we had some problem in switching a witness that we

21     thought we can bring in, but we were unable to because of two weeks ago

22     we had those three days and there was a miss, so we had to place

23     Dr. Komar in his stead and he was not able to readjust his schedule, and

24     we were only able to bring these five witnesses for this week.

25             And I understand obviously we mis-estimated the time for two of

Page 24245

 1     them, because they were 92 ter witnesses as opposed to live viva voce

 2     witnesses.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but the thing is -- and this is why we've been

 4     exercising a lot of restraint, Mr. Ostojic.  The decision that these two

 5     witnesses -- in the meantime, I think we can get the witness to leave the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Vasovic, we will continue with you tomorrow morning.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry.  Could the witness just be advised, as

10     you sometimes do, that he shouldn't be communicating with others.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, correct, especially since I also mentioned

12     other names.

13             Mr. Vasovic, we have a very strict and important rule here.  When

14     a witness doesn't finish his testimony during a particular sitting and is

15     to continue subsequently, we need to inform him that he is bound not to

16     engage into any conversation with anyone in relation to the subject

17     matter of his testimony.  So that's an obligation that you have.  Between

18     now and tomorrow, you must not discuss these matters with anyone.

19             Is that clear?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now, coming back to you, Mr. Ostojic, as I said, we

24     have been very, very patient.  The decision to convert these two

25     witnesses, Milan Jovanovic and Perica Vasovic, into 92 ter witnesses was

Page 24246

 1     taken way back on the 8th of July, so, if anything, you had ample notice

 2     that there was no way you were going to take an hour and a half with each

 3     of these two witnesses on direct.  Putting down an hour and a half here

 4     has most definitely misled you and misled everyone else into thinking

 5     that one could spend one day, that's today, the other one would spend

 6     another day, two in one day and one in another day.  And the result is

 7     that we are going to remain exposed with time which we should -- we would

 8     have otherwise usefully made use of.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I most sincerely

10     apologise.  I think there was clearly a miscommunication, mostly on my

11     part, that the number was carried over for an hour and a half.

12             I think reasonably, if we look at the calculations, and I'm not

13     trying to shift any of the responsibility of the time estimates, but when

14     we looked at them, there was an adequate amount of time, even if you

15     subtract an hour from the two witnesses, given it may take 15 to half an

16     hour, and obviously it took less, to put the witness on pursuant to

17     92 ter.  We did not at any time, nor do we ever, mislead or try to

18     mislead the Court or our learned friends.  We most sincerely apologise

19     for that.  It was on my instructions, I think, a misinterpretation, and

20     we carried those estimates from our prior disclosures.

21             At that time, we were contemplating, quite candidly, if we were

22     just going to convert the witness back to a viva voce as opposed to a

23     92 ter, although the Court had ruled it would accept a statement in that

24     vein.  It did get lost in some communication and translation.  We did try

25     to have two additional witnesses, specifically Mr. Savkic, who we asked

Page 24247

 1     to be pursuant through a videolink.  The Court was quite clear in their

 2     position, as was the Prosecution.  I think our recent filing, or

 3     soon-to-be-filed filing, we were withdrawing from that statement based on

 4     his health, so we have been in contact with him.

 5             The other witness, Mr. Srdjan Trivkovic, who we believe, with all

 6     due respect, the Prosecution felt that he was a witness for 92 and 93,

 7     I think we clarified that point with them.  He is a fact witness, he is

 8     an academic historian.  We are providing them with a supplemental 65 ter

 9     list to identify specifically the two to four areas that he will cover.

10     He was in Pale with Dr. Karadzic at that time.  The recent developments

11     there has caused some communication problem with him.  I have met with

12     him and I have spoken to him.  He was unable this week to testify because

13     of plans that he made.  We had had him scheduled for last week.  Last

14     week, he came to The Hague, as scheduled.  We had to place Dr. Komar,

15     because we felt her schedule was -- and I'm sorry to have to say this

16     publicly -- was a priority, given that she was going to Rwanda soon and

17     had several conferences that she was required and needed to attend.

18             So as we tried to juggle that, we could not juggle Mr. Trivkovic

19     until later this week, and I regret to inform you that that's why we took

20     him off the list for this week, and he will be coming later in our case.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's leave it at that.  We'll continue

22     tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

23             One moment.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  In view of this and also other things that are

Page 24248

 1     coming up, tomorrow we'll have a normal session, not like today.  In

 2     other words, we'll finish at quarter to 2:00.

 3             All right, thank you.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.17 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of July,

 6                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.