1 Tuesday, 29 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am.
11 For the record, all the accused are present, that is, that
12 Mr. Borovcanin has returned. From the Defence teams, I notice the
13 absence of Ms. Tapuskovic and Mr. Bourgon. The Prosecution is
14 represented today by Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Nicholls and Mr. Mitchell.
15 All right. The witness is also present in the courtroom.
16 Mr. Lazarevic, we suspended the sitting yesterday to give you a
17 chance for another quick preparation for cross-examination.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning. It
19 was a very useful decision. I managed to go through all the testimony of
20 this witness, so I'll reduce probably my cross-examination and it will be
21 less time-consuming.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
23 WITNESS: PERICA VASOVIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vasovic. Let me introduce
2 myself for the record. My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic, and I'm
3 defending Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin, together with my colleagues, and I
4 will be cross-examining you now on his behalf.
5 I notice that you do have some experience testifying before this
6 Tribunal, so perhaps this warning may not be necessary in your case, but
7 still I'm going to ask you to make a small pause before starting your
8 answer, after I finish asking my question, so that we don't have an
9 overlap in the transcript.
10 Can we start, then?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Vasovic, reading -- having read your statement that you gave
13 on the 23rd of April, 2007, I noticed that you stated that on the 13th of
14 July, in the evening, sometime after 2000 hours, you had decided to go to
15 the farming co-op in Kravica. As I read on, I realised that it was
16 already dark at that time. And based on some other information that had
17 come in during this trial, shouldn't it really read "2200 hours"?
18 Shouldn't that be the time when you actually set off?
19 A. It was dusk when we set off. When we arrived, it was already
20 dark. I can't really orient myself in time, but that was summertime so
21 it's possible it might have been 2200 hours, in fact.
22 Q. Thank you. Of course, I cannot press the point. I suppose you
23 didn't really look at your watch to --
24 A. Well, I didn't have a watch.
25 Q. Fine. The next thing I would like to ask you pertains to the
1 moment when you and Miladin Jovanovic, as indicated in your statement,
2 and Jovan Nikolic, you arrived at the farming co-op in Kravica. On that
3 occasion, to the best of your recollection, was there any other person in
4 the car? I'm referring to Kosan Eric, aka Misa. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes, he was there, Kosan Eric, aka Misa, he was there.
6 Q. And according to your statement, at that point, some uniformed
7 persons came out of the dark, pointed their rifle at Jovan, and asked him
8 to give them a hand guarding the prisoners. Do you recall having said
9 that in your statement?
10 A. As we got out of the car, Jovan Nikolic and I were to the right,
11 and Jovan set off. He was the first. A uniformed soldier came out from
12 the dark. There were others in the dark, so we couldn't see them. And
13 they asked Jovan to join the guards.
14 Q. Fine, fair enough. I merely asked you whether you recall this
15 part of your statement.
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And do you remember that person that you saw coming out and
18 stepping in front of Jovan Nikolic, that person wore a black uniform?
19 A. Yes, he wore black overalls, but it was dark so you couldn't
20 really see any details.
21 Q. Fine. Do you remember that on the 5th or [as interpreted] the
22 6th, perhaps you don't know the exact date yourself, but it is in the
23 documents here, that you testified in the Kravica case before the State
24 Court in Sarajevo
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic and Mr. Vasovic, you are going too
2 fast. Please slow down so that we avoid problems.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I'll keep this in mind. I'll
4 try to.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's more the witness than you, but it's both of
6 you too.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to correct the
8 transcript. At page 3, line 20, I said -- I said "the 5th of the sixth
9 month," and that means June, obviously, 2006.
10 Q. Mr. Vasovic, do you remember that in your testimony in that case,
11 when the prosecutor, Mr. Ipaj [phoen] asked you about this, you also
12 stated that the soldier who stepped in front of you wore a black uniform.
13 This is what I was able to hear from the audiotape of the proceedings.
14 You said it was a uniform, black overall. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you were also asked questions about the defence counsel,
17 Ozren Kajaksic [phoen], and you also told her that it was a single-colour
18 black uniform; do you recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That soldier who approached Mr. Nikolic and yourself, did he
21 introduce himself, state his name, full name?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we did not hear the witness.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Could you please repeat your answer, because the interpreters --
25 A. No, no, he didn't state his name.
1 Q. Did this soldier perhaps say what unit he belonged to?
2 A. No. This was not discussed at all.
3 Q. And were you able to see any insignia on this solid black uniform
4 that would make it possible for you to conclude what unit this soldier
5 belonged to?
6 A. Well, we couldn't see the insignia. I don't even know whether
7 there were any insignia, because it was dark.
8 Q. And when you testified -- well, I don't want to repeat all of
9 that, but when you testified in the Kravica case, do you remember that
10 when Ozren Kajaksic, the defence counsel, asked you about the insignia on
11 the uniforms, that you gave the same answer that you have just given us?
12 A. I think that I gave the same answer, yes.
13 Q. On that occasion, you were together with Jovan Nikolic, when that
14 soldier came out?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You did not get separated from him?
17 A. Well, not at any distance to speak of.
18 Q. So, in principle, you were present during this incident involving
19 Jovan Nikolic and this soldier in the black uniform; can we say that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you were able to hear and to see the same things that
22 Jovan Nikolic was able to hear and see?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And on that occasion, did you hear that soldier in black uniform
25 ask Jovan Nikolic to intervene in the Command in order to get a new shift
1 or replacements for the troops deployed there?
2 A. I didn't hear that.
3 Q. Let me ask you again. Do you remember that when the question
4 that I just asked you was asked of you in the Kravica case by the defence
5 counsel, Ozren Kajaksic, that you provided the same answer?
6 A. Well, I can't remember, but if they asked me that, I'm sure that
7 I gave the same answer.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. I just don't
10 think it's proper cross, when a witness gives an answer, to say, "You
11 gave exactly the same answer in an earlier proceeding." I don't think
12 it's necessary, when that hasn't been attacked or put in dispute.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I really don't see any problem with this, I mean,
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't, either. Anyway, please proceed,
16 Mr. Lazarevic.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Vasovic, just a couple of questions.
19 In your statement to the Beara Defence team, you say that you
20 arrived in the co-op compound and that while you were there, you could
21 see isolated shots. Were you able to determine the direction from which
22 those shots were coming at that time?
23 A. No, we couldn't determine that, but we could hear them.
24 Q. You were asked about this at the Kravica case, and the prosecutor
25 asked you a similar question and you provided a similar answer. Do you
1 remember that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. As you were on your way back to Bratunac by car, did
4 Jovan Nikolic at any time say that the persons guarding the Muslim
5 prisoners were members of the special police from Skelani; did
6 Jovan Nikolic ever say anything to that effect?
7 A. He didn't say that, and the next day when I was in contact with
8 him again, he did not mention any units, any military formations at all.
9 Q. Thank you. Did Jovan Nikolic at any time say that the soldiers
10 you had seen in the compound -- I mean, that one soldier that you saw
11 distinctly, and you had reason to believe there were others in the
12 compound at the co-op in Kravica, did Jovan tell you they were asked him
13 to inform their Command to provide replacements or reinforcements?
14 A. No.
15 Q. According to your statement to the Beara Defence, you stated that
16 two days later, you heard from people in town that an incident had
17 occurred, some killings had occurred in the warehouse in Kravica. Do you
18 recall that? Do you remember when you heard that, from whom?
19 A. People were talking. Different versions of that story were
20 circulating, so I heard that somewhere.
21 Q. Of course, ten years later after these events from 1995, you
22 cannot name the person who might have told you that?
23 A. No, no.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vasovic. I have
25 no further questions.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.
2 Mr. Nicholls.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
5 Q. Good morning, sir. Just a couple of questions for you.
6 Now, you've talked about this case several times in several
7 statements, and now in several courts; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And you gave a statement to SIPA [Realtime transcript read in
10 error "CEPA"] on the 19th of June, 2005. Do you remember that?
11 A. I don't know what SIPA means.
12 Q. It's not "CEPA." You gave a statement to the Bosnian authorities
13 who were investigating this massacre at the Kravica warehouse; correct?
14 A. I gave a statement to the police of Republika Srpska. I don't
15 know about other services. I don't think so.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... if we could have it up here.
17 It's -- I don't have the Defence 65 ter number for the 19 June 2005
18 statement. 3601. I'm sorry. It's our number.
19 Well, in any event, you recall giving the statement to those
20 authorities and signing it; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you promised to tell the truth in that statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you were careful because it was a criminal investigation?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And that was closer to the events than we are today; correct?
2 Right, it was soon after these events happened?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let me tell you what you said there about the shots:
5 "Then we went to ZZ Kravica, since we have heard that something
6 strange was going on there, that is, that people were being killed.
7 While we were in ZZ Kravica, I heard single shots from the direction of
8 the entrance to the warehouse or, more precisely, from the road. We
9 immediately left ZZ Kravica, as our lives were in danger."
10 Do you remember saying that to the investigators and signing that
11 in your statement?
12 A. The layout of the terrain, since we were closer to the building,
13 indicated that the shots were coming from that side, but they could have
14 been coming from the opposite side as well and what we heard was an echo.
15 It doesn't mean that what I said -- what I assessed at the time is
16 necessarily correct.
17 Q. You didn't answer my question. My question was: Do you remember
18 saying that to the investigators and signing that that was correct in
19 your statement?
20 A. I signed the statement, but the statement was given when nobody
21 asked me about my mental and physical capacity to give a statement. I
22 was under stress because I had been taken out of a church of the same
23 Trinity and taken to be interrogated. I felt depressed, and it's
24 possible that I said a word out of turn.
25 Q. All right. So you don't want to stand by that answer you gave
1 when you promised the tell the truth under penalty to the investigators
2 of the RS?
3 A. I heard shots. I felt they were coming from the other side, and
4 I confirm still today that I heard them. But it doesn't mean necessarily
5 that it's correct. I was not in a position to decide where they were
6 coming from, because it was dark, it was night. The sounds echoed from
7 one hill to another.
8 Q. Okay. So it was dark, it was --
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, just a question out of my curiosity.
10 When the witness gave statements to the investigator, did he do
11 so under penalty?
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. I don't have a translation of
13 that, but I've seen it and I believe what it says is that -- I don't have
14 a translation of that, but it's got language in there that under the
15 regulations, you can -- you can be penalized if you're giving a false
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll check it later on.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. I have a different one, Your Honour, from
19 the prior witness, but same investigating agency, and it states:
20 "Pursuant to Article 86, paragraph 2 of the Law on Criminal
21 Procedure of BH, I warn you that you have to tell the truth. You cannot
22 hide anything. I hereby warn you that perjury constitutes a crime as
23 specified by Article 235 of the Criminal Code for which sentence of
24 imprisonment between six months and five years can be ruled."
25 And that's on the first page of the statement form.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: Of which statement?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: SIPA.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Mr. Lazarevic.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe we are talking about two different
6 things. I just have in front of me -- I just have in front of me this
7 statement. It's 19th of July -- 19th of June, 2005. Is this the same
8 one that we are talking about?
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: So maybe my colleague can direct me to where he
11 found this, because --
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't have a translation of the statement. My
13 understanding is that --
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: That is not what I can find in this statement.
15 What I can find is that this statement was provided to the Centre of
16 Public Security in Bijeljina, Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska,
17 not to SIPA, which is the agency of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, we can check it later.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: If I made an error there, I apologise.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed in the meantime, and we can check it
22 MR. NICHOLLS:
23 Q. In any event, Witness, what you told these investigators on 19th
24 of June was that your best recollection at that time, three years ago,
25 was that the shots were coming from the direction of the front of the
1 warehouse or the road, but now you consider that might have been an echo;
2 is that right?
3 A. I recollect most clearly the year 1995. I can even describe how
4 a bullet travels. But I no longer can tell clearly whether it was an
5 echo from the other side. I'm not sure at all.
6 Q. Okay. Now, the following day, on the 14th, you returned to
7 Kravica warehouse around noon
8 A. Yes, in that time interval.
9 Q. Okay. And you testified about that in the State Court trial in
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And let me just -- and you saw some soldiers there when you
13 returned on the 14th, correct, or some men in uniform?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you described their uniforms. Let me read about how you
16 described those. This is on page 12 of your testimony of 5th July 2006:
17 "They were wearing camouflage uniforms, all," there is a word we
18 can't read, "drab uniforms, these typical military uniforms. They were
19 overalls, so in one piece, you know."
20 Do you stand by that answer? Were you telling the truth when you
21 said that in the State Court ?
22 A. I've always told the truth before that court and before your
23 Tribunal, yes.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one issue. It might sound minor, but what
25 Mr. Nicholls has just read to the witness is that he said "typical
1 military uniforms." These typical military uniforms, this is what
2 Mr. Nicholls just said, and I don't see the word "military" in line 19 on
3 page 12.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: It's line 2.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. Let's proceed.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Oh, I see. Sorry, thank you.
7 Nothing further.
8 Your Honours, sorry, I've got now a Republika Srpska witness
9 form. I will still check, but it's got similar language, stating that:
10 Pursuant to our paragraph 2, Article 86 of the Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina Law on Criminal Procedure, the witness was instructed to tell
12 the truth and not to hold back any information, in exactly similar
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
15 Is there re-examination, Mr. Nikolic?
16 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
18 Judge Kwon? Judge Prost? Judge Stole?
19 Mr. Vasovic, we have finished with your testimony. You are free
20 to go.
21 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I thank you for having come over,
22 and I wish you a safe journey back home.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents, Mr. Nikolic.
1 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We tender some documents. Vasovic,
2 Perica's statement given to our Defence team, the number is 2D 555, and
3 it has been introduced into the system.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: No objections. Objections from any of the Defence
6 teams? None. So it is so admitted.
7 Mr. Lazarevic, you don't have any documents, do you, to tender?
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honours, we don't.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, sorry to keep on this topic. I have
10 the witness's statement in B/C/S. I've had some assistance. The warning
11 that the statement is given under penalty is on page 2, as my friend
12 asked. I can direct him to it. It's on page 2, above the witness's
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
15 Do you wish to add anything to that, Mr. Lazarevic?
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Maybe just to help my friend.
17 What Mr. Julian was quoting are relevant paragraphs of the Code
18 of Criminal Conduct of the Bosnian Federation. However, when I look at
19 the statement, the relevant paragraphs refer to the quote of the Criminal
20 Proceedings of Republika Srpska. There are some differences.
21 And furthermore, just to add to this discussion, this is not the
22 statement made under oath, just to clarify this issue.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
24 Otherwise, do you have any documents, Mr. Nicholls?
25 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. That concludes the testimony of
2 Mr. Vasovic.
3 Let's bring the next one, Mr. Mrkovic.
4 And further, for the record, Mr. Elderkin now is present in the
5 courtroom for the Prosecution.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Mrkovic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And as Presiding Judge, I welcome you to this
10 Tribunal. You are about to start giving evidence in this case, having
11 been summoned as a Defence witness by Colonel Beara.
12 Before you start your evidence, our Rules require that you make a
13 solemn declaration to the effect that you will be testifying the truth.
14 The text is being handed to you now. Please read it in a way that we can
15 hear you, and then that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: LJUBAN MRKOVIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself
22 The Beara Defence team will go first. They will be followed by
23 cross-examination with others.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Good morning, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
2 Examination by Mr. Ostojic:
3 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, good morning. As you know, I'm John Ostojic, and I
4 represent Ljubisa Beara with our team here.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. For the record, could you please state your full name?
7 A. Ljuban Mrkovic.
8 Q. At any time, sir, and specifically in the mid-1990s, did you have
9 a nickname?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you share that with us? What was it?
12 A. They called me "Mrki," derived from my last name, since my
14 Q. Sir, could you please give us your date of birth and place of
16 A. I was born on the 28th of December, 1953, in Ljubinje.
17 Q. And just briefly, could you outline for us your educational
18 background, the highest level you attained when and where, please?
19 A. I completed my primary school in Ljubinje, my birthplace. After
20 that, I went to the Secondary Aviation School
21 the Aviation Engineering School in Rajlovac. After that, I graduated
22 from the Command Staff Academy
23 Q. Just give us an idea, if you don't mind, Mr. Mrkovic. When
24 exactly did you finish this aviation school; approximately the year or
1 A. It's not a flying school. It's an engineering academy for the
2 aviation engineering staff.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the year. There
4 is a lot of noise around the witness that drowns the witness's voice.
5 MR. OSTOJIC:
6 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, they're having a little trouble hearing us, so thank
7 you for moving up. If you could just give me the year again, please. We
8 weren't able to hear it, so it's not in the transcript.
9 A. I graduated the Aviation Engineering School
10 and the Command Staff Academy
11 Q. Just briefly and to get a better flavour for your background and
12 experience, can you share with us, from 1977, whether you were gainfully
13 employed and where?
14 A. I worked for a while in the aviation school in Sombor, and after
15 that I worked the whole time in Rajlovac. After those two years in
16 Sombor, I spent all of my other time in Rajlovac.
17 Q. Where is Rajlovac?
18 A. It's a suburb of Sarajevo
19 six kilometres going away from the center of Sarajevo towards Ilijas and
21 Q. Now, you mentioned that from 1990, you attended a Command Staff.
22 Can you tell me how, if at all, were employed from 1990 to 1992? Where
23 were you gainfully employed, if at all?
24 A. From 1990 until 1992, I worked in the Aviation Engineering
25 Academy in Rajlovac.
1 Q. Share with us what you did, just generally speaking. What were
2 some of your duties or responsibilities at that time while you were
3 working with that engineering academy?
4 A. Well, in that school I occupied many positions, from director of
5 the school, reserve officer, head of the chair for the training of
6 foreign nationals. I occupied many positions until 1992, including
7 security chief.
8 Q. Thank you for that. And now can you tell us what you did
9 subsequent to 1992?
10 A. After 1992, in fact in December 1991, I was the security organ in
11 the aircraft manufacturing plant Orao, which is just next to the school
12 in Rajlovac.
13 Q. We'll come back to that to describe some of your job duties
14 there. How long did you work at the Orao airplane manufacturing plant?
15 I know you said you started in December 1991. Up until what point?
16 A. I worked there until 1997.
17 Q. Did your position at the Orao aircraft manufacturing plant stay
18 the same throughout that period 1991 through 1997?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Well, you told us briefly what you did. Can you share with us
21 what your job duties and responsibilities were from December of 1991 up
22 until the time you left the Orao manufacturing plant?
23 A. That would take a long time, but I'll try to tell you very
25 This aircraft manufacturing plant, Orao, is a company in the
1 military business, as they called it before, the military industry, that
2 dealt with repairs of engines of fighter planes, not only for the former
5 perhaps one of the strongest companies in that line of business in
7 In 1992, in Orao, the technology was so advanced that the entire
8 former Yugoslavia
9 of work in that company was very complex. But, of course, with the
10 secession of many republics, those republics kept a large number of
11 aircraft and engines. Everybody tried to get hold of the documentation,
12 of spare parts, and those were the most important things we were doing
13 during the war in Bosnia
14 own work, to preserve the property, to preserve the documentation and the
15 spare parts in the company, because it's still working. It operated
16 throughout the war, and it's still in operation. It's not what it used
17 to be, but it's still in the business.
18 Q. And just so we're clear on the record, this Orao manufacturing
19 plant was in Rajlovac; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As you said, right outside of Sarajevo. And now tell us, more
22 specifically -- please.
23 A. When you mentioned it, this company was next-door to the aviation
24 garrison. The road was the only thing separating the two warring sides,
25 so we can fairly say that the company was -- the plant was on the
1 separation line itself.
2 Q. And can you tell us -- you described briefly what some of the
3 assets were and your role in protecting that documentation and preserving
4 that documentation through the war. Can you give us a little more
5 specificity as to what type of assets it was that you were protecting or
6 trying to secure at that point? Was it machine -- was it the actual
7 physical aeroplane, was it machine parts, or anything to the best of your
8 recollection, sir?
9 A. Well, the first objective that we had in the management of this
10 plant was to keep the personnel intact, because without the personnel all
11 the machinery was worth nothing. So we wanted to keep the people
12 working. Our next task and obligation was to preserve the property that
13 we had, and of course to keep intact the documentation that had been
14 produced by generations before us, because this was very sensitive
15 technology. So this was -- these were our key tasks.
16 Q. Now, how many people were at this manufacturing plant, say, at
17 the time that you arrived in December 1991?
18 A. In December 1991, there were about 600 employees.
19 Q. Did you see that number decrease over the course of the three
20 years thereafter up and through until the end of 1995, if we could use
21 that as a time frame? And that would be in light of the Dayton Accords,
23 A. Yes. Well, once the fighting started when the war broke out,
24 many people from the facility were in Sarajevo. Some left, fled abroad
25 to Belgrade
1 get the people back. And then at one point we had maybe 30 to 40 people
2 working there, and they kept the operation going. But after that, the
3 number increased to 150, 200 people. Nowadays, the facility employees
4 about 300 people. But it had been too cumbersome, so in April we started
5 with maybe 30, 40 people, and then in 1994 we had about 150, 200 people
6 who came to the very frontline to do their job there.
7 Q. And, sir, just so we have the correct year, when you say "April,"
8 you're saying -- and you correct me if I'm wrong, I don't mean to lead on
9 this, but what year in April did you mean -- April of what year, that it
10 was reduced to approximately 30 to 40 people?
11 A. It was in April 1992.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 2002.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: And I think the interpreter --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: 2002.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: I know, and maybe I can just clarify on that.
16 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, I think you said "2002," but is that when you were
17 there, 2002, or really are we talking about April 1992, when the actual
18 war broke out? Please, go ahead.
19 A. I apologise if I said "2002," I misspoke. 1992. In 2002, I
20 wasn't there at all. 1992. I apologise.
21 Q. That's okay, because the interpreter certainly understood you,
22 because they first said "1992," and realised you misspoke and said,
23 "2002," but that isn't really important, so we can move on.
24 What was specifically your job title from 1992 through --
25 A. I apologise.
1 Q. No need. Thank you, though.
2 Sir, what was your specific job title from 1992 through 1995 at
3 the Orao aircraft manufacturing plant?
4 A. My job title was security organ in the Orao [Realtime transcript
5 read in error "Orahovo"] aircraft manufacturing plant.
6 Q. Now, how long did you hold that position?
7 A. From 1991 until 1997.
8 Q. And I'm just -- because obviously I think I'm overlapping, and I
9 do apologise for that. On the transcript, on page 22, line 3, and just
10 so it's clear, it's not "Orahovo aeroplane manufacturing plant," it's
11 simply O-R-A-O, Orao aircraft manufacturing plant. I don't know if it's
12 necessary, but we'd like to have as clean a transcript as possible, so
13 thank you and I apologise for that intervention, Mr. President.
14 Sir, can you tell us how many people worked with you in that
15 capacity or within the security organ of the Orao aircraft manufacturing
17 A. I, and there was another clerk or desk officer who left for
19 than two of us.
20 Q. And from 1990 -- or let's specifically say 1995, to the best of
21 your recollection, do you know how many people worked with you within
22 that security organ in the capacity that you have described that you were
23 so employed?
24 A. Just one.
25 Q. Going back generally to the Orao aircraft manufacturing plant,
1 can you tell me if you recall, between 1992 and 1995, what was the ethnic
2 composition mix, if any, of the employees within the plant? Was it
3 strictly a Serbian ethnicity or did you also have other ethnicities
4 within the plant?
5 A. Well, I've already spoken about that before this Tribunal in the
6 General Milosevic case. The personnel in Orao was multiethnic. I don't
7 have the exact date now, but there were several Muslims and Croats
8 working on the same jobs that were done also by Serbs, so there was no
9 division, no separation.
10 One of my tasks was to monitor them, to work with them, and it
11 was in the interests of Orao and everybody else to keep those people
12 working there. We managed to do that throughout the war, but
13 unfortunately now I hear that some people, some Croats and a Muslim, left
14 for Canada
15 because of low salaries, so the management and I really feel sorry about
17 But I have to stress here, there were not only Serbs; there were
18 Serbs, Croats, Muslims working there at the plant.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Could you Mr. Ostojic
20 please switch off the microphone when the witness is responding.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: I'll do that, Mr. President. Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, I'd hate to put you on the spot, but do you remember
23 any names of such employees who were of Muslim or Croat ethnic
25 A. Well, one of the names that stuck in my memory is Saban Tabak, a
1 Muslim. His wife was in Ilidza, and so were her children. We helped her
2 to get to Belgrade
3 Croat. Well, 15 years have passed, but these are the names of people who
4 worked in the plant at that time.
5 Q. Now, help understand the function further of the plant and maybe
6 of the hierarchy of the plant. Who was the director or the main person
7 at the plant from 1991 through 1997? If you can give me the title, and
8 then if you remember the name and if it changed, share that with us, if
9 you don't mind.
10 So, in essence, what was the main person at the Orao
11 manufacturing plant? What was his job title called?
12 A. In 1991, the former JNA was still in existence, and the late
13 Laza Grbic was the director, and then it was Colonel Milovanovic. In
14 1992, they withdrew to Belgrade
15 that all members of the JNA should withdraw to Belgrade, and then it was
18 And let me just clarify one thing. In the former JNA, the Air
19 Force Command -- the logistics in the Air Force Command appointed the
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to
22 repeat the answer.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, you could perhaps ask the witness to
24 repeat it.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, we did not obtain a complete translation of what you
2 just said, so the Court's asked me and the interpreters have asked us to
3 ask you to just repeat the part where you started to clarify certain
4 things, and you stated:
5 "In the former JNA, the Air Force Command ... ," and then there's
6 some hyphens: "The logistics in the Air Force Command appointed a
8 And, sir, I know we're all nervous here and I'm probably just as
9 nervous as you are talking in front of this panel and these other
10 lawyers, but just relax and take a drink of water. We'll walk through
11 all this so we have a better understanding of what you did in that time
12 period, and so if you would be kind enough to repeat for us what you were
13 starting to say about logistics and the director of this Orao Aeroplane
14 manufacturing plant, please. Thank you.
15 A. Up until 1992, April 1992, the director of the Orao facility was
16 Colonel Vladeta Milanovic, and pursuant to the order of the former
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he complied with it and he and some part of the
19 management of the plant withdrew to Belgrade in 1992, in April.
20 Once Milovanovic was gone, Milovanovic appointed one of the
21 competent persons in the plant, Milan Prica, to be his stand-in. He had
22 a degree in aviation engineering. He had been working in the plant for
23 sometime at that time, and it was not clear to me whether the government
24 of Republika Srpska was set up or not, but at any time Milan Prica had
25 this job. And in September 1992, the Ministry of Defence appointed Milan
1 Prica the director of the plant, and this order existed, it was there in
2 Orao. And throughout the time that Orao plant operated, the logistics of
3 Republika Srpska provided professional assistance and proposed any
4 changes in the plant. And the Ministry of Defence issued decisions to
5 appoint people to appoint a director of this Orao plant.
6 I hope that I was clear.
7 Q. You were --
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. -- very much so, and thank you for that.
10 Now, if I could turn specifically, sir -- if I can turn
11 specifically, sir, to your job duties in the security organ, did you
12 conduct or perform any counter-intelligence work while you were working
13 at the Orao aeroplane manufacturing plant from 1992 through 1995, or '7,
14 for that matter?
15 A. Well, I've already stated that it was my basic task to carry out
16 counter-intelligence protection of the Orao plant and its staff.
17 80 per cent of my job was doing this and, of course, protecting the
18 property, the people, and all the other assets that were there in the
19 plant. If you want me to clarify that, I'll do it.
20 Q. And I respectfully would, because I'd like to get a better
21 appreciation for what you did in your capacity while performing
22 counter-intelligence work as a security -- in the security organ. So,
23 yes, please, if you don't mind, tell me, to the best of your
24 recollection, what were your day-to-day or week-to-week duties and
25 responsibilities in conducting counter-intelligence work while at the
1 Orao plant?
2 A. Well, in a nutshell, the plant had huge assets, a lot of those
3 documents that had been put together over the years. In 1992, we started
4 doing the repairs on MiG 29, one of the most advanced aircraft at the
5 time, and all this had to be protected and preserved.
6 When republics broke away, you can imagine the kind of pressure
7 that was exerted by all the countries in the region to get the documents,
8 to get the spare parts, to recruit some people to make them transfer to
9 work for them. I think that I and the rest of the management of the Orao
10 plant managed to preserve this and that we are one of the few factories
11 or plants in Republika Srpska that operated nonstop, and I think it is a
12 great success that this management can claim for itself.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. More specifically, if I may ask you, did you
14 conduct counter-intelligence operations or investigations specifically
15 against the Bosnian Muslim or Croat employees or were you
16 non-discriminatory in your efforts to protect the assets of the Orao
17 aeroplane manufacturing plant?
18 A. No, we paid no attention to that in Orao, to the ethnic
19 background of people. What we cared about was that people should do
20 their job and to be adequately rewarded for doing it properly.
21 Throughout the war, after the war, in 1995, this has been our
23 Oh, now I recall another Bosniak, Jako, and there was another
24 person who was married to a Croat, Andja, some people who still work in
25 Orao. So it was really not our goal to do that.
1 Of course, we had to keep an eye on everyone to prevent any
2 surprises, but this was the job of the security organ, to watch out for
3 any such surprises. But there was no pressure on them. Well, at one
4 point they had a nickname for me, "Welfare worker," because I helped them
5 more than I did Serbs. So that would happen too.
6 Q. Sir, I'm not sure you mentioned a Bosniak by the name of Jako,
7 and I didn't catch the name when you uttered it, but if you remember, if
8 you just have it so we could have it in the transcript, the gentleman
9 that you just recollected as you were sitting here. His last name, if
10 you will.
11 A. Zvonko Bosnjak, a Croat.
12 Q. Thank you. And, sir, did you also conduct any intelligence or
13 counter-intelligence efforts within the Orao manufacturing plant prior to
14 July of 1995?
15 A. Well, naturally some people were being processed, checked. We
16 ran checks. In some cases, we were successful; in others, we were not.
17 Q. You told us during your testimony that the Ministry of Defence
18 would appoint a director, and then you told us how Logistics was involved
19 in terms of the physical assets, professionally speaking, of the Orao
20 manufacturing plant. Share with us now, if you will, to whom did you
21 report during that period of 1992 through 1995 or 1997? And the reason
22 I'm -- we want to focus up to 1995, but if it changed during that time
23 period, please just enlighten us and then we'll clarify that. So I'm not
24 sure that it has, but to the extent that it may have, to whom you
25 reported, you can share that with us as well, sir.
1 So from whom did you report from 1992 to 1995?
2 A. Well, I reported up the command-and-control -- chain of command
3 and control to the director of the plant - I was his subordinate - and to
4 the security administration. That was along the professional line of
5 command, because I was under the Security Administration of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska. Those reports were sometimes daily reports, sometimes
7 weekly, and we had to submit reports every month. Daily reports were
8 submitted every day to the plant director, because the security organ was
9 linked, in military terms, to the director of the plant, in military
10 terms. In professional terms, it was subordinate to the
11 Security Administration.
12 Let me clarify one more thing. Since I was in the area of
13 responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, many of the reports that I
14 sent to the Security Administration were actually also copied to the
15 security section of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, because I was in their
16 area of responsibility. So it was done up the chain of command in this
18 Q. Okay. And we've heard a lot of evidence or some evidence here
19 about control and command and the professional aspect of it, as well as
20 the six corps that existed in the former Bosnian area, and including the
22 with whom -- if there was one individual during any longer period of
23 time, did you report to in the -- or within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?
24 A. Well, for the most part, I supplied intelligence that I obtained
25 to the chief of the security section, Mr. Marko Lugonja, and of course I
1 also sent it to the Main Staff, or sometimes I agreed with him that he,
2 because he had so much more experience than me and he was responsible for
3 that in his area of responsibility, so I sent it to him, and then he
4 would forward it. It would happen quite often.
5 I would report to -- I would provide my reports to the Sarajevo
6 Romanija Corps regarding intelligence that I obtained.
7 Q. Okay. Maybe if you could help us here, and this isn't -- sorry.
8 Maybe if you could help us, I think you said "Marko Lugonja"; right?
9 Would you mind spelling that, because in the transcript that you perhaps
10 can see in front of you, there's a different spelling, and I just want to
11 make sure we're talking about the same individual. And if you don't
12 remember how to spell it, sir, that's okay, I think the Prosecution and
13 we all know who you're referring to. And since you're looking at the
14 transcript, if you look at page 30, at line 20, so just from the
15 left-hand side, line 20.
16 A. Marko, M-A-R-K-O, L-U-G-O-N-J-A.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, interpreters, and thank you,
18 Mr. Witness.
19 Q. Now, at any time from 1991 through 1997, did you report to anyone
20 else at the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, other than Marko Lugonja? Was there
21 someone who replaced him or were you given instructions to report to
22 someone else within the corps?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You shared with us briefly the types or how often you would send
25 reports. These reports were generated from your office in Rajlovac in
1 Orao manufacturing plant, and you would send it directly to the Sarajevo
2 Romanija Corps and/or to the Main Staff; correct?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Now, share with us, if you will, if you know the gentleman by the
5 name of Ljubisa Beara? Have you ever met him?
6 A. Of course, I have.
7 Q. Well, let's lay a little more foundation if we can for that.
8 Tell us when, where, and in what capacity did you meet Mr. Beara, to the
9 extent that you can remember?
10 A. Well, I couldn't give you the exact dates, but I think it was
11 sometime in November or December 1992. That was when Ljubisa Beara was
12 appointed the chief of the Security Administration in the army of
13 Republika Srpska. I think that was when we first met.
14 Q. Thank you, and I'm not asking for any more precision on your part
15 than that which you can honestly recall here.
16 Do you remember, in 1995, more specifically, and even prior to
17 that, if Mr. Beara visited the Orao manufacturing plant in Rajlovac?
18 Physically, did he visit you or your plant?
19 A. Well, I can't really recall the details, but I know that he would
20 come very often. Every time when he visited the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,
21 he would visit the Orao plant. I can't tell you whether it was 10 or 20
22 times in the course of those three years, but I know for a fact that he
23 came very often; not only Ljubisa Beara, but others would also come
24 visit, help us in any way, logistics, operations. But at any rate,
25 people would come, and Ljubo Beara would visit the plant very often.
1 Q. To the best of your recollection, and we can take whatever time
2 period, but we'd like to focus on 1995, do you remember if he stayed
3 there for a day or longer, or a short period of time? Was there any
4 consistency to the visits that he made to Orao there at Rajlovac to visit
5 you guys at the plant? Do you remember if he stayed there ever longer
6 than a day?
7 A. Well, it was our practice to meet every month with all the
8 security organs in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, so all of us would get
9 together and then we would do our analyses, the monthly analyses. I
10 can't really tell you how many times Mr. Beara attended those meetings,
11 but before I came here, I checked in my notebooks.
12 On the 5th of July, 1995, Ljubisa Beara convened this monthly
13 meeting at Dragutinovic in the Ilijas Brigade, and I and all the other
14 organs got this dispatch or a telegram from the Main Staff. Well, you
15 can find this in the documents. I know that we had this meeting on the
16 5th of July in Ilijas, and I know that Ljubo Beara stayed there two or
17 three days, because we pressed him to stay longer, and I know that he
18 said -- well, Ljubo was always in a hurry. He said, "There's another
19 frontline opening up in Krajina." I remember that meeting in 1995, when
20 Ljubo told us that new frontlines are being opened up in Krajina, in
22 long time. And he said that he was going to Krajina. I don't know
23 whether he went there or not, but I do know that he always tried to leave
24 as soon as possible. And I'm sure that on the 5th of July, we were in
25 Ilijas, at that meeting.
1 Q. Okay, Mr. Mrkovic. That's a lot of information, and I'm going to
2 try to dissect it. You're getting a little ahead of me, which is fine,
3 and thank you very much for that, because it helps all of us keep
5 You mentioned in your testimony that -- about some notes that you
6 checked in your notebook. And I think if everyone just focuses on page 6
7 of line 32 [sic] of the transcript, you said you'd check in "my
8 notebooks." What notebooks are you referring to, sir?
9 A. Well, I had a notebook where I wrote about all those various
10 meetings. It's now pretty faded and old, but I leafed through it when I
11 was invited to testify here. And yesterday, in my room, when I lay down,
12 I believe -- I thought about that meeting, and I believe it was held on
13 the 5th of July in Ilijas. I remember I had met Vojin Dragutinovic about
14 a year ago in Zvornik. He calls on me often, and he had -- he reminded
15 me of that lunch that we were supposed to have and, in the end, didn't.
16 But at the end of the day, every brigade has its documentation, and that
17 dispatch must be there. If it reached me, it must have reached everyone
19 Q. And just help us understand where Ilijas is. Where is that?
20 A. Well, Ilijas is to the west of Sarajevo, 21 kilometres from
21 Rajlovac. You go on the road to Zenica, 21, 22, 23 kilometres, depending
22 on where you measure from.
23 Q. Okay. And just so we have a better understanding, can you tell
24 us, in July of 1995, who was Vojin Dragutinovic, and what capacity did he
25 hold with the Ilijas Brigade, if at all?
1 A. Vojin Dragutinovic was the chief of the security of the Ilijas
2 Brigade, so he had the equivalent of my job in the aircraft manufacturing
3 plant, in the Ilijas Brigade.
4 Q. Sir, forgive me for asking, but I need to know. Do you have your
5 notebook with you at the hotel or here in the Netherlands, because you
6 referred to it and I just --
7 A. No, no, I don't have it here.
8 Q. And it's back home somewhere; would that be accurate?
9 A. I think it's currently in Zvornik. It's a small notebook,
10 perhaps the only piece of paper that I leafed through recently to look
11 through the various meetings.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: And with the Court's permission, if I can just ask
13 you, sir, to please don't throw that notebook or piece of paper away,
14 because we may ask you to produce that.
15 Q. Is that okay, can we ask you to do that, sir? Just because you
16 finish your testimony here today, we're asking that you still preserve
17 that, and we'll, with the Prosecution, find a mechanism with which we can
18 obtain it if we're still interested. So we're asking you to kindly
19 preserve and not throw away that notebook or that piece of paper. Okay?
20 A. I may even have the original document inviting me to that
21 meeting, inviting all the security chiefs to that meeting. I'm not sure,
22 but I may just have it.
23 Q. And thank you for that. The same, if we can request that same
24 thing with this document. Whatever you have, in essence, if you can just
25 retain it, and then we'll be calling upon you after we testify so that we
1 can possibly examine or get a copy of those documents. So we're asking
2 you nicely to just kindly don't throw it away.
3 Fair enough?
4 A. All right.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mrkovic.
6 Now, let's go back to this meeting on or about the 5th of July,
7 1995, in Ilijas. What was the purpose of the meeting, to the extent that
8 you recall? I know you mentioned it was a monthly meeting, but give us,
9 if you will, an overview of the types of things that were discussed
10 during this meeting.
11 A. Well, it's hard after all this time. There was a regular item on
12 the agenda that was always included, and that was an analysis of the work
13 of security organs for the past month and the evaluation of the situation
14 on the ground. Now, I really can't remember the rest of that meeting.
15 Anything I would try to recall would not be reliable. It's been 15
17 Q. Okay. Well, maybe with the help of some of those documents or
18 original documents and notebooks that you have, it may help you refresh
19 your recollection, but my question is really generally, and I think
20 you've answered it, the things that you would generally discuss at these
21 monthly meetings.
22 Can you share with us who, generally again, would partake or
23 participate in these monthly meetings that you identified, similar to the
24 one that occurred on or about the 5th of July in Ilijas?
25 A. Well, all chiefs of security from brigades would attend,
1 sometimes security chiefs of battalions, the security chief of the
2 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and there would be someone from the
3 Security Administration. Specifically on that occasion, it was
4 Ljubo Beara. I know that from that notebook. I know that on that
5 occasion, it was Ljubisa Beara from the Security administration. And the
6 topic of that meeting was the extremely difficult military and political
7 situation in Republika Srpska, the Sarajevo theatre of war. Intelligence
8 told us that various units were being transferred from one frontline to
9 another frontline and so on. Then the situation in Krajina was very
10 difficult because units were arriving from Croatia, from here and there,
11 and preparing for action. I think that was the main topic of the
13 Q. Okay. Well, you mentioned several specific areas relating to
14 theaters of war. Do you remember, to the best of your recollection, at
15 that time whether there was any activity that was taking place in the
16 Bihac war theatre?
17 A. Well, from the intelligence that I received, the offensive was in
18 Bihac. There was an offensive in Bihac. But what was specifically going
19 on, I couldn't tell you. All I know is that there was that offensive at
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, it might be a good time to take a
22 break. We're going to move on to a similar but more specific aspect of
23 his testimony. If the Court permits, I'll ask that the break starts now.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break now. Thank you.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
4 Mr. President, with your permission, the Court's permission, the
5 OTP and I have had a brief discussion during the break, and we'd like to
6 ask of the witness a couple more questions in connection with a document
7 that he seems to have in his possession. So if it's permissible with
8 you, and the Prosecution believes, as you'll hear from the question --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
10 MR. OSTOJIC:
11 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, good morning still. How are you? Sir, with respect
12 to the document or notebook or piece of paper that you had, my learned
13 friends from the Prosecution have asked me whether or not they can send
14 their investigator, who I believe is currently around Sarajevo, to your
15 home to pick up this material so that, in their view, they wouldn't have
16 to call you back, if necessary, to talk about that document.
17 Do you know whether that document and/or notebook is at your
18 home, and is there anyone, with your permission, if you grant it, that we
19 can give that to one of the investigators from the OTP? Or if you have
20 another preference, you can share that with us as well.
21 A. When I come back to Bosnia
22 have it as soon as possible. That can be the day after tomorrow or
23 tomorrow afternoon.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. I would just ask that you, you know,
25 write down what you give them, and we'll talk about it. So if you would
1 be kind enough to meet with the Prosecution and myself after you've
2 concluded or completed your testimony, we'll make arrangements for that.
3 Thank you very much, Mr. Mrkovic.
4 Now, sir, I'd like to go back to this discussion that we were
5 having on your recollection with respect to the 5th of July, 1995, where
6 Mr. Beara was present. What I'd like to know is: Do you remember if,
7 prior to July, like in June or May, did Mr. Beara make visits at all at
8 the Orao manufacturing plant or at Ilidza at any time, to your
10 A. I cannot be 100 per cent sure, but I believe Mr. Ljubisa was at
11 the plant at the time and he was in the Ilidza Brigade. I think he even
12 refueled at my station in the plant.
13 Q. Thank you. And now let me ask you a little bit more, and then
14 we'll get into the sum and substance of your testimony in connection with
15 this meeting on the 5th of July. But before I ask you that, you
16 mentioned in the beginning that you testified in the Dragomir Milosevic
17 case, and we have the date, sir, just so the record is clear, and I don't
18 think it's an issue in dispute, that it's the 12th and 13th of July,
19 2007. Does that sound about right, almost approximately a year ago that
20 you testified in that case?
21 A. It was summertime, but the date is certainly in the documents.
22 Q. Okay. Well, help us with this, because in our documents that the
23 Prosecution gives us, they give us a specific collection that they've
24 called either the Srebrenica collection or the Drina Corps collection.
25 But relating to that other case, do you know if that involved the
1 Sarajevo Romanija Corps at all?
2 A. Not that I know. In all the documents I received, both as a
3 security organ and in intelligence, did not indicate that the Sarajevo
4 Romanija Corps was in any way involved or that it performed any
5 operations in the area of the Drina Corps. I could not find that
6 anywhere in the papers or any information that I received.
7 Q. Okay. I was actually asking for another reason, in the hopes
8 that maybe the Prosecution may have the Sarajevo Romanija Corps documents
9 and they might be able to assist us in finding the documents that you
10 were referencing, but thank you. And, in any event, we'll move on.
11 Sir, at any time did you and I review intercepts that purport to
12 have your name or a conversation that you were involved in?
13 A. How do you mean, did I review?
14 Q. Did I, sir, show you last night a video which had your
15 conversation -- go ahead.
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Prior to --
18 A. That, that's so. You showed it to me yesterday. Last night, in
20 Q. Prior to that, sir, did you at any time have a discussion with
21 myself, Mr. Nikolic, any attorneys or investigators on the Beara Defence
22 team, with respect to any intercepts or purported intercepts that may
23 bear your name?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. Now, I'd like, with the Court's permission, for us to call up
1 specifically this one intercept that's dated the 10th of July, 1995
2 it bears the number T001-1340.
3 Mr. President, this was a document that was disclosed to us by
4 the Prosecution. We did not have an English translation. We spent
5 several hours trying to translate these documents this morning. My
6 learned friend from the Prosecution was kind enough to give us all the
7 English translations of the intercepted material within that disc, so we
8 do also have, I believe, at least one copy. We will furnish that for the
9 Court so that you have it in evidence as well, the English as well as the
10 B/C/S version of the intercept.
11 And if we may now have that video or that tape broadcast, and
12 it's a very short video. It goes specifically under our 2D 557, the
13 transcript in B/C/S. We will attach the English version as it was
14 provided to us by the Prosecution this morning, and again it's T001-1340.
15 [Audiotape played]
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Can we stop it, please.
17 And let me -- before I ask you, Mr. Mrkovic, a question: We have
18 the transcript, and we provided it to the interpreters. I thought they
19 were going to read along a little bit with us. If they don't have the
20 English version, we have another copy they can. I just want to ask the
21 witness specifically if he recognises any of the voices on the tape as a
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, we were not seeing anything at all.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Because it's audio, it's only an audiotape.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But in the transcript --
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- you said it's a very short video. You did
3 mention audio, but you also mentioned video.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I apologise for that. It's strictly audio.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters have a precise reference
6 or at least an indication how we are supposed to find it among -- what
7 words it begins with or something like that?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you hear that, Mr. Ostojic?
9 MR. OSTOJIC: I did. If I can directly answer that, it begins
10 with an unknown male that states: "The beginning of the conversation was
11 not recorded." On top it has the date of the 10th of July, 1995
12 hours. The internal number, if I could share it, is CD-96-17-04/06/021,
13 they should have and as I'm reading just the top portion of that from --
14 THE INTERPRETER: We've got it.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay, thank you. And with the Court's permission,
16 I'm not sure if the Court has the entire English version yet, but we were
17 just going to have them read it as it appears on the transcript and as
18 it's playing for the witness.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a second.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: If it would help, Your Honours, I have a couple of
21 extra copies in English that I could pass up to the Bench.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Elderkin. That would be very
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, if I may -- oh, excuse me.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Elderkin.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: Again, another practical suggestion is it may be
2 difficult for the interpreters to follow along at the speed of the tape,
3 and we had envisaged as well using perhaps some of these materials and to
4 have one of our team, who we can call down here, to follow on the ELMO
5 just to show as the tape is playing, line by line, where we are in the
6 English. It would only take five minutes to bring her down, if that
7 would help.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: I personally don't know that it's necessary. I'll
9 defer if that's the better practice, because I'm focusing only on page 5
10 of 8. I was going to ask that we merely read along. The interpreters
11 need not translate those first four or so pages, but we do have it in
12 front, and we were going to stop on page 5. But I did need the witness
13 to confirm whether he identifies any of the participants in the
14 conversation. But I would be more than happy to have the OTP help us, if
15 that's what they desire.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: As I understand, the OTP might be using this later
17 on again or not?
18 MR. ELDERKIN: It is being played now, then no. But if it wasn't
19 going to be played, we have somebody upstairs who was going to come down
20 to help us follow along.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's follow Mr. Ostojic's suggestion for the time
22 being and then we'll see if it becomes more practical to adopt your
23 suggestion, then we'll do so. Yes, Mr. Ostojic. So we need to go to
24 page 5?
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, if we can just play a little bit of the tape
1 so I could lay a little foundation for who the persons may be on the
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: So if we could start from the beginning, and I'll
5 ask them kindly to stop. And, then Mr. Mrkovic, I'm going to proceed and
6 ask you a couple of questions.
7 Please, if we can play the audiotape.
8 [Audiotape played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "May your father fuck you. Ljuban,
10 holy shit.
11 UNKNOWN MALE: He is there slightly more than before.
12 LJUBAN: There's slightly more?
13 UNKNOWN MALE: Of course.
14 LJUBAN: Who else is there?
15 UNKNOWN MALE: Nobody, just him.
16 LJUBAN: Just him?
17 UNKNOWN MALE: Yes, yes.
18 LJUBAN: Anything you on your side?
19 UNKNOWN MALE: Nothing, just a few jobs here and there.
20 LJUBAN: Yes, screw it.
21 UNKNOWN MALE: According to the old pattern as they all say.
22 LJUBAN: Old pattern, new customs, fuck."
23 MR. OSTOJIC: And I apologise, Mr. President. I actually
24 thought, and I thought I was clear, we didn't need it translated up until
25 the fifth page, and I apologise for obviously some of the language. I
1 just need to ask him.
2 Q. At this point, Mr. Mrkovic, if I may, do you recognise any of the
3 individuals that are speaking on this tape, the audiotape that we have
4 just played?
5 A. [No interpretation]
6 Q. Okay. Tell us if you recognise yourself at all on this --
7 A. I can assume that, yes, I can.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
9 A. It's a bit changed, but it could be. Yes, yes, it is.
10 Q. Do you recognise the person who has been identified, at least in
11 the translated version of the intercept by the OTP, as an unknown male?
12 As you sit here and listen, unless you need to listen to more of it, do
13 you know who that other individual was at that time?
14 A. I think it's Zoran from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,
15 Zoran Stankovic, I believe, an intelligence officer.
16 Q. And now, sir, we're going to play the tape, and I believe there's
17 no need for the interpreters to read it for us, since I think the Court
18 has a copy, and we will provide a copy of that. And just to assist them,
19 we would like to have the tape played, and when we get to approximately
20 page 5, we'll ask that it be stopped.
21 So if we could continue with the tape, please.
22 [Audiotape played]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop. And where are we supposed to
24 start reading from?
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I would prefer the interpreters to follow, and then
2 we can also follow.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: We were just trying to short circuit it, but that's
4 fair, Your Honour. We'll have them read it as it's going along, and I'll
5 ask them to stop.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: At least the initial part, and then we can follow
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we start again, please.
10 [Audiotape played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "How is it going up there?"
12 Can the interpreters know where we are reading from? Where have
13 we started now?
14 [Audiotape played]
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. Stop, please. And just because the
16 interpreters asked for assistance, I was trying to find it. If they turn
17 to page 2 of 8, in the lower third portion of the document, it starts
18 with: "Let me tell you, I should come this Friday." I believe that's
19 where the audio is right now, so they can follow at that point, unless
20 the Court prefers us to start a little earlier. Thank you.
21 So if we can start the tape, and for the interpreters' benefit we
22 are again on page 2 of 8, the lower third portion of the document with:
23 "Let me tell you, I should come this Friday." If we can play --
24 [Audiotape played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Ljuban, let me tell you, I should
1 come this Friday. There is a car, Toso's car. Fuck it, I've had it up
2 to here. It should be brought here from Belgrade and then I could drop
4 UNKNOWN MALE: Right. You should have a few drinks.
5 LJUBAN: I will, as soon as I can get going, promise.
6 UNKNOWN MALE: Hello. Hello, sir.
7 UNKNOWN MALE: Hello.
8 LJUBAN: Hello.
9 UNKNOWN MALE: Hello, Mrki.
10 LJUBAN: Where have you been? I haven't heard a word for three
11 days? You are constantly changing numbers.
12 UNKNOWN MALE: And you find me just as you have left me every
13 time you call.
14 LJUBAN: Not really, swear to god.
15 UNKNOWN MALE: By god this is so, you can see it.
16 LJUBAN: Swear to god, I called yesterday, they told me on 250 to
17 call here. Said he wasn't here but there. Screw it, I say, never can
18 catch him.
19 UNKNOWN MALE: It's all one door next to another.
20 LJUBAN: Well, fine, I'm not gone. Get those men to get up and
21 call you. Screw it.
22 UNKNOWN MALE: Ljuban, what's up with you?
23 UNKNOWN MALE: Nothing to brag about. Fuck it.
24 LJUBAN: There's not enough of it around, either.
25 UNKNOWN MALE: With you?
1 LJUBAN: Well, I'm fine, let me tell you.
2 UNKNOWN MALE: How it's's the boss?
3 LJUBAN: He's okay otherwise.
4 UNKNOWN MALE: Where are you calling from?
5 LJUBAN: My own place.
6 UNKNOWN MALE: Down there?
7 LJUBAN: M'mm-hmm.
8 UNKNOWN MALE: Since we are talking, there's something else.
9 LJUBAN: Yes, yes, only if I should go to another place to -- why
10 anything else?
11 UNKNOWN MALE: Well, I would like to have someone else hear that.
12 LJUBAN: M'mm-hmm.
13 UNKNOWN MALE: It's not urgent, when it's convenient to you.
14 LJUBAN: When will you be there?
15 UNKNOWN MALE: I'm here all the time.
16 LJUBAN: At that number? All right, listen, I'll go to that
17 other, you know, secure line.
18 UNKNOWN MALE: All right.
19 LJUBAN: Then we'll speak. Any news from you?
20 UNKNOWN MALE: Nothing special.
21 LJUBAN: Nothing special?
22 UNKNOWN MALE: Yes.
23 LJUBAN: Fuck it. What was I going to say? Forgot it.
24 UNKNOWN MALE: I haven't seen him. I don't know.
25 LJUBAN: You haven't? Well fuck it, we'll see.
1 UNKNOWN MALE: I haven't been up there at all.
2 LJUBAN: Well yeah, and I have been thinking I should go up
3 Thursday or Friday to take that IDA. Fuck that IDA, I've had it.
4 UNKNOWN MALE: Take what?
5 LJUBAN: That Ascona of ours.
6 UNKNOWN MALE: Where is it?
7 LJUBAN: It's finished up there.
8 UNKNOWN MALE: Is it?
9 LJUBAN: Well, it is, fuck people.
10 UNKNOWN MALE: Easy.
11 LJUBAN: Tell me you can pass 100.000, so I say let me do 50 and
12 Toso and his team 50. Is that fair?
13 UNKNOWN MALE: Yes.
14 LJUBAN: Is that right?
15 UNKNOWN MALE: You are right.
16 LJUBAN: Beara says that it's not impossible, not possible.
17 There you go.
18 UNKNOWN MALE: So you just say under repair and that's it.
19 LJUBAN: I should. They're all spies, man, they see and hear
21 UNKNOWN MALE: Fuck them.
22 LJUBAN: You cannot hide anything from them. Beara came and
23 stayed with us for three or four days.
24 UNKNOWN MALE: Really?
25 LJUBAN: Yes, there you go.
1 UNKNOWN MALE: What did you --
2 LJUBAN: We were doing something, fuck. But we were not very
4 UNKNOWN MALE: Something around your house or in the
6 LJUBAN: Well, both.
7 UNKNOWN MALE: M'mm-hmm.
8 LJUBAN: Everywhere, and --"
9 MR. OSTOJIC: We can stop there. And if the Court wishes, we can
10 [indiscernible] the next three pages but if we can just focus on here, I
11 do have a couple questions with respect to Mr. Mrkovic on this issue.
12 Q. Mr. Mrkovic, this looks as if, at least on the written
13 transcript, that there were two conversations within one on the 10th of
14 July, 1995, at approximately 1854, and, sir, I know that yesterday you
15 were somewhat troubled and embarrassed because of some of the profanity
16 that was used, and we'll address that in a moment with you. But the
17 second part of the conversation, where it starts: "Hello," and, "Hello,
18 Mrki," can you tell us if you recognise who that unknown male if it's the
19 same one that you identified Zoran as you previously testified about? Do
20 you recognise the unknown male on the second portion of this tape?
21 A. Somebody from the Main Staff, from the Security Administration,
22 but I'm not sure who it was. I really couldn't, on the basis of this
23 conversation, now say who this person is.
24 Q. Yes, please continue.
25 A. I really couldn't claim who that person is. It is my voice.
1 These are the things that I said, but I'm not sure about the other
3 Q. Now, at that time on the 10th of July, 1995, in speaking with
4 this other individual that has been identified as "Unidentified male
5 person," you state at page 5 of 8, the lower portion:
6 "You can't hide anything from them. Beara came and stayed with
7 us for three, four days."
8 Do you remember hearing that?
9 A. That's what I said to my colleague.
10 Q. And I just want to make sure we're clear. At or about the 10th
11 of July, does this conversation assist in refreshing your recollection
12 that Ljubisa Beara was in or near the area -- I'm going to miss pronounce
13 it again -- Rajlovac for three or four days, or three to four days?
14 A. Well, this was a conversation that was intercepted on the 10th of
15 July. We had this meeting on the fifth in Ilijas. I'm sure that I have
16 this document in my possession, and we'll arrange for this document to be
17 sent to you. This is the invitation to the meeting.
18 Ljubisa stayed there a couple of days, and from this intercept
19 you can see that -- well, I wouldn't have said that he was there if it
20 hadn't been the case. I came here to tell the truth.
21 I can't recall this conversation. Well, it was a long time ago,
22 I had so many conversations, but I do believe this is an intercepted
23 conversation in which I participated. And I apologise for those
24 profanities that I used. Those were the times -- war times, so I am a
25 little bit embarrassed about it. But what I really said was that he was
1 there. This was not something that we hid. He was there from the 5th
2 until the 8th or 9th. I can't really say that. And I think that he went
3 for Krajina or somewhere, because he would always be in a hurry to go to
4 Krajina. That was his usual pattern. He would visit the Sarajevo
5 Romanija Corps and then he would go on to Krajina.
6 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, before we get into the discussion of
7 Mr. Beara possibly going to Krajina, let me ask you: What were you guys
8 discussing there? I mean, you mentioned things like Asconas, and then
9 you ask about, "Can you pass 100.000," and then there's a discussion
10 about "is 50 fair," et cetera. Can you tell us an idea, to the best of
11 your recollection, what is it you folks are talking about during this
13 A. Well, I can only make an assumption as to what it was. Since we
14 had quite a lot of money in the aircraft plant and we supplied, with
15 vehicles and fuel, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and also the Main Staff,
16 so if anyone came to visit, they would get fuel. This Ascona was from
17 the Security Administration and the engine broke down because there was
18 some oil problems. So we transferred it to Sarajevo
19 facility. It was repaired, and the garage guaranteed that it would go
20 100.000 kilometres without any glitches, and this is a joke that I made.
21 I said, "Let's say -- let me do 50.000, and Toso, his team can do
22 50.000." So we were talking about this car that was purportedly able to
23 make 100.000 kilometres without any breakdowns. So we're talking about
24 this car.
25 And now where it says Beara didn't give it, well, he didn't want
1 us to spend a lot, so he didn't give us. So this whole conversation is
2 about repairing a vehicle. This is a reference to 100.000 kilometres.
3 Q. Thank you for that. Now, you just testified, in your prior
4 answer, that you believe or recall, and help us understand this better,
5 that after Mr. Beara left Rajlovac, that he went to the Krajina front.
6 And before the break, you were telling us that there was actually the
7 theatre of war occurring simultaneously both in Sarajevo
8 and then I think I asked you relating to Bihac.
9 Do you have specific recollection, as you sit here today, whether
10 or not you had a conversation with Mr. Beara and where he would be going
11 after he left Rajlovic [sic] on or about July 9th or so, 1995? Or
12 Rajlovac. I keep -- I misspoke when I said "Rajlovic." It's "Rajlovac."
13 I apologise for that.
14 A. I think at that meeting, he said after Sarajevo he had to go to
15 Krajina. I think that is what was said at the meeting. This was said at
16 the meeting.
17 Q. Sir, because it's important, do you have a clear recollection of
18 that or you're just merely making an assumption because of his past prior
19 habits that you may have seen, or seen him going from your area to, let's
20 say, Krajina, or Bihac, or any other area? Do you, as you're sitting
21 here, have a specific recollection of that conversation?
22 A. Well, I can't say that with 100 per cent certainty, so I can't
23 say it with 100 per cent certainty. But he mentioned Krajina, he
24 mentioned going to Krajina. Now, as to where he actually went, I
25 couldn't really tell you that.
1 Q. Thank you for that, and we're just looking for your best
3 Let me switch the topic for a moment and ask you a couple of
4 things about the humanitarian convoys. Were you familiar at all, during
5 that time, 1992 through 1995, or did you have any information relating to
6 the humanitarian convoys that were passing through your area?
7 A. Well, in the Milosevic trial, I said this: Humanitarian aid
8 passed into Sarajevo
9 through Kasindolska Street, very often. In 1992, it was especially the
10 case, as it was in 1993. And then at one point, I think it was the
11 Ilidza Brigade searched one of the convoys. I don't know whether it was
12 the MUP or the military, but I know that they found weapons and military
13 equipment in there. And after that, those convoys were scaled down a
14 little bit. Advanced notice was required and searches were also needed,
15 because this was one channel of supplying Sarajevo with weapons and
16 military equipment.
17 The convoys continued. It was a little bit more difficult
18 because searches had to be carried out, but I do know for sure -- I know
19 that somebody sent us some helmets on this convoy, and then we returned
20 them. I don't know whether it was some kind of like a French Battalion
21 at the airport or something, so they should go back to them. But the
22 convoys proceeded, and I don't think there were any problems at any time
23 for a convoy carrying humanitarian aid to pass through Ilidza, Rajlovac,
24 Ilijas. But if there was military equipment on the convoy, then there
25 were problems and it was not approved. But humanitarian aid, food,
1 medicines and so on, it passed through, there were no problems. The only
2 thing that had to be done was to conduct a search to ascertain whether
3 the cargo really was as it should have been.
4 Q. Do you know, sir -- sorry. And do you know, sir, if there were
5 ever any illegal trade that was being conducted with the humanitarian
6 convoys during the period of 1992 through 1995, through the places that
7 you've identified? Specifically, I think you said Sarajevo, Kiseljak,
8 Ilidza, and then you mentioned a street, and I didn't get the correct
9 spelling of that street, but I think it's Kasindolska, but we can talk
10 about that later. Do you know if -- go ahead, please?
11 A. Well, Kasindolska Street was the street leading from Ilidza to
13 this. But let me tell you, what can one suspect if, in a convoy with Red
14 Cross insignia and flags, you find weapons and military equipment? Of
15 course, this was illegal trafficking, smuggling. This may have been used
16 by some NOGs, and in parallel some other people used it, but it is true
17 there were such occasions. I received intelligence from our people, and
18 we also did some intercepts. They were listening in to our
19 conversations. We listened in to them. But I'm sure that some people
20 tried to smuggle weapons and military equipment into Sarajevo, and of
21 course then there would be counter-favours asked. That was there, that's
22 for sure.
23 Q. I'm sorry. And, sir, just so that I'm clear, you weren't
24 involved in investigating or doing any work with respect to that, or were
25 you? That wasn't your task, was it?
1 A. No, no, not me specifically. I simply received intelligence
2 about that, but I specifically did not do that. I recall that the
3 military police squad from Ilidza searched a convoy there, and those
4 helmets and weapons were found there. I personally did not take part in
5 it, and this was not in my area of responsibility.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Now, my learned colleague Mr. Nikolic
7 has raised in a note to me that I forgot to follow up on one thing. So,
8 Mr. Mrkovic, I'm going to go back to June of 1995. I know we discussed
9 July of 1995. And I'm going to play a tape, an audiotape, which is
10 T001-1332. And as with the other audiotape that we played, we did
11 provide, I believe, the English translation that was given to us this
12 morning by the Prosecution. And this is a conversation that purports to
13 be between Mr. Beara and Mr. Tolimir and thereafter Mr. Mrkovic, sir,
14 yourself, and Tolimir on the 6th of June, 1995.
15 So if we could please play that, and it's a very short audio.
16 It's a very short one. It's approximately three pages' in length, as
17 opposed to the other one of.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Elderkin.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: Just again I have spare copies, if the Bench would
20 like to have them.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you very much.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we need some time to find
24 the transcript. Could we please be given again the internal numbers or
25 some other reference that is actually on the papers we have been given?
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. It should be the very first document you
2 received, and the internal number, I believe, is CD-96-17-04/06-001. Let
3 me just -- and then if the Court just instructs the interpreters to let
4 us know when they're ready, we'll be able to play it.
5 THE INTERPRETER: We're ready, yes. Thank you.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. If we can please play that tape, T001-1332.
7 [Audiotape played]
8 MR. OSTOJIC: I think we can stop, please.
9 Mr. President, obviously the audio is not working well, but the
10 Prosecution has been kind enough to type this out, both in B/C/S and in
11 English. I didn't realise that we can barely -- I don't think it's
12 audible at all, and the interpreters certainly haven't started
13 translating anything, so maybe they could assist us.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: The audio, actually, I think is working fine, if
15 it's the same sample we have, but you need to forward to two minutes 20
16 seconds, which is where the transcript picks up.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you very much. It's much appreciated.
18 If we can fast-forward, then, to the mark of two minutes and 20
19 seconds, although on the document itself it does say two minutes and 35
20 seconds. We'll go with two minutes and 20 seconds and start there.
21 Thank you.
22 [Audiotape played]
23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "UMP: Hello.
24 BEARA: Hello.
25 UMP: Yes.
1 BEARA: Put me through to 168.
2 UMP: Hello.
3 BEARA: Hello.
4 UMP: Yes.
5 BEARA: Hello, hello.
6 UMP: Yes.
7 BEARA: Ljubo Beara.
8 UMP: Go ahead.
9 BEARA: Hi, is Toso there.
10 UMP: Yes.
11 BEARA: Put him through.
12 UMP: Just a second.
13 TOLIMIR: Yes.
14 BEARA: Hi, Toso.
15 TOLIMIR: Hi, Ljubo.
16 BEARA: How are you?
17 TOLIMIR: So-so.
18 BEARA: So-so?
19 TOLIMIR: Yes.
20 BEARA: Fuck, I'm here at Mrki's.
21 TOLIMIR: Uh-huh.
22 BEARA: I've covered all except for 'Maja.'
23 TOLIMIR: Okay.
24 BEARA: Yes, and I heard that Marko has scheduled a meeting ... "
25 MR. OSTOJIC: That's enough.
1 Q. Sir, you've had a chance to at least listen to a part of this
2 audiotape. There is a reference by a person here, by purportedly
3 Mr. Beara, that he's here at Mrki's. Do you know who Mrki is?
4 A. That's me.
5 Q. I know you told us that was your nickname. I just wanted to
6 confirm that. Do you know, on or about June 6th, 1995, where you were?
7 Were you at Rajlovac or were you somewhere else with Mr. Beara?
8 A. Well, we were at -- in Rajlovac, probably in my office, because
9 Ljubo Beara himself says that he's at my place.
10 Q. We'll play the rest of the tape to see if you come on. What I
11 also want to know is: Just at the end, when we stopped it, there was a
12 mention of a Marko. Do you know of anyone or can you recall to this date
13 who that reference to Marko was?
14 A. Lugonja, Marko Lugonja.
15 Q. And I think you identified him previously, but would you be so
16 kind to identify him again so I don't lead you? In what corps was he
17 affiliated with, Marko Lugonja?
18 A. He was the chief of security in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
19 Q. And that was the corps area of responsibility of where Orao
20 aeroplane manufacturing plant was; correct?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Would you please continue playing the tape where we
23 left off, which is on page 2 of 3, and I think we just have about a page
24 and a half and then I have a couple of questions for the witness. So
25 please if the audio may start again.
1 [Audiotape played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
3 "BEARA: Yes. And I heard that Marko has scheduled a meeting for
4 6.00 with everyone in the region.
5 TOLIMIR: Okay, then go there.
6 BEARA: Go there, ah?
7 TOLIMIR: Go, and then you should come and go to the one that one
8 who was, well, suspended. We have to deal with that there.
9 BEARA: What about down?
10 TOLIMIR: When you come, we'll have to deal with it.
11 BEARA: Okay, we'll go tonight then.
12 TOLIMIR: Okay.
13 BEARA: Okay, bro, 'Mrki" wants to talk to you.
14 TOLIMIR: Cheers.
15 BEARA: Cheers, bye.
16 TOLIMIR: Hello.
17 MRKOVIC: Hello, General, sir.
18 TOLIMIR: Hello, Mrki. How are you?
19 MRKOVIC: Not bad, I'll survive.
20 TOLIMIR: Do you have any work?
21 MRKOVIC: I sure do.
22 TOLIMIR: Well I don't see any ...
23 MRKOVIC: Results, is it?
24 TOLIMIR: I don't see any letters, so give it to Ljubo if you
25 have not sent it by courier so far.
1 MRKOVIC: I sent everything to Marko.
2 TOLIMIR: Okay.
3 MRKOVIC: I sent everything to Marko. I have a question for you.
4 TOLIMIR: Yes.
5 MRKOVIC: I should come to see you.
6 TOLIMIR: Hello.
7 MRKOVIC: Hello.
8 TOLIMIR: Yes.
9 MRKOVIC: I/?/ something with Marko. He didn't try that with
10 you, he didn't. He thought he could convey this to you personally.
11 TOLIMIR: Yes.
12 MRKOVIC: So I should come to you or something like that, I don't
13 know, I would have to sit and talk about it.
14 TOLIMIR: We'll see about that. You often go there. Fuck.
15 MRKOVIC: Not often, I haven't been there since God knows when.
16 There you are and I would to send something through Beara.
17 TOLIMIR: Well, write it down. Fuck.
18 MRKOVIC: No, something for you personally.
19 TOLIMIR: Write it down and pack it up.
20 MRKOVIC: Okay, I'll see you with Marko tonight.
21 TOLIMIR: Write it down and pack it up.
22 MRKOVIC: Okay, okay.
23 TOLIMIR: Bye.
24 MRKOVIC: Bye."
25 MR. OSTOJIC:
1 Q. Sir, did you recognise your voice during parts of this audiotaped
2 conversation of the 6th of June, 1995?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And can you just give us a general idea, although the purposes
5 for which we're using it is -- because you had earlier testified that you
6 don't remember if Mr. Beara was with you or at the Rajlovac area in June
7 or prior to July 1995. According to this intercept, Mr. Beara was with
8 you at Rajlovac; is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Now, since you know Mr. Beara, I know you met him a few times, as
11 you've testified thus far, do you remember if he -- anything distinct
12 about his speech or his dialect?
13 A. Well, he had a Dalmatian accent. That's what's peculiar about
14 the way he spoke. And I can say that he was an experienced officer,
15 commanding officer. You could learn from him. It was his advantage.
16 And his drawback was -- or, rather, my drawback was that I moved around a
17 lot, whereas Ljubisa Beara was in one place all the time so you could
18 really learn from him.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. Mrkovic.
20 I think we have no further questions at this time. Thank you,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Zivanovic.
23 Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have no questions for this witness,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I don't
3 have any questions for this witness.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Very well. Mr. Lazarevic had indicated no
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: No questions, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Madame Fauveau.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
12 MR. HAYNES: I might as well complete the set. No questions,
13 thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So Mr. Elderkin.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Since we've just been hearing that 6th of June intercept, I'm
17 wondering if it would be possible to play just the first half minute of
18 it, with both the English channel and the B/C/S, hearing the B/C/S. Just
19 following in the English just to ask about the voices that are --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: This last one we were hearing or the previous one?
21 MR. ELDERKIN: The last one we were hearing.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Does that mean that we're
24 not required to interpret?
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Exactly. Yes, please, if you could just let the
1 Court hear the B/C/S only.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Elderkin:
3 Q. Hello, sir. I just ask you do listen -- I just ask you to listen
4 again to the beginning of this clip and to the voices that we're hearing
5 on the clip.
6 Go ahead, please.
7 [Audiotape played]
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
9 Q. First of all, there are a couple of nicknames used in the extract
10 you just heard. Can you tell us who Toso is, if you know?
11 A. Toso is Zdravko Tolimir.
12 Q. Thank you. And when we hear Beara announcing himself, he says
13 that his name is Ljubo Beara; that's correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when Beara is speaking there, you recognise his voice;
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the work of
19 the security organ at the Orao plant. And we've heard from another
20 witness in this case, Mr. Spiro Pereula. Do you know this man?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr. Pereula told us that as concerned the industrial units around
24 the security, as well as the VRS security. Can you tell us anything
25 about the coordination between those two organs, please?
1 A. Well, Mr. Spiro Pereula was the security organ in the Ministry of
2 Defence, and it's natural that he, too, kept an eye on the military
3 industry that did not have its own security organ. Pretis company was
4 also, for instance, in the military industry, as was Famos, and they did
5 not have their own security chiefs, so Spiro kept an eye on that, too.
6 And we had enough collaboration between us. He helped me and I helped
7 him to take care of the entire military industry in Sarajevo.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay, thank you very much. And for that I don't
9 have any further questions. I just want to refer to the clip that I
10 played which is also the same as the Beara Defence, which has our 65 ter
11 number 3603, just for the record.
12 No more questions.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 Is there re-examination, Mr. Ostojic?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no further questions for you,
17 Mr. Mrkovic, which means you're free to go.
18 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having
19 come over, and I also wish you a safe journey back home.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, documents?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 We would put -- ask to move into evidence the conversations that
25 we played, which are under our 65 ter number 2D 556, which is, just so
1 the record's clear, the 6th of June, 1995, and then also 2D 557, which is
2 the first conversation we heard from the audio the 10th of July, 1995
3 1854 hours.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? From the Defence side? None.
5 They are so admitted.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: And just so we are -- and once we get the document,
8 we will probably move -- if we get the document and once we get it, we
9 may move, if there's no objection from the Prosecution or however we
10 resolve it, that the document -- that the documents that the witness
11 mentioned when he was on the stand, specifically I think he said his
12 notebook and possibly an original document that he may have in his
13 possession, so we would be moving later once that it is brought into
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. I don't think there is any objection
17 to that from Mr. Elderkin.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: There are none.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Any documents on your side?
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Just a reference to 65 ter 2D 556, we had as 3603,
21 but that's it is.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That concludes the testimony of Ljuban Mrkovic.
23 Is Ms. or Mrs. or Dr. Svetlana Radovanovic here?
24 MR. OSTOJIC: We can certainly check, Mr. President. I think we
25 had scheduled her to begin tomorrow. I know I've spoken with my learned
1 friend from the Nikolic Defence, specifically Madam Nikolic, and I know
2 she's ready to proceed.
3 I have not had an opportunity, in the last five days, to meet
4 with Dr. Radovanovic. I did meet her prior to that. With the Court's
5 permission, we could do it a number of ways. If I could meet with
6 Ms. Radovanovic, after she commences testifying, just to clarify a couple
7 of points, if that's not permissible and I know that Ms. Nikolic will
8 lead Dr. Radovanovic, I would ask that we then start with her testimony
9 as scheduled for tomorrow.
10 I honestly in the last five days have been out of the country and
11 I've been meeting with several witnesses, so I didn't have an opportunity
12 to sit down with her on two points that I was hoping to lead evidence
13 from. So I don't know that it's a problem, because it's an expert, but
14 I'll defer to your better judgement on that.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Couldn't Ms. Nikolic have done that?
16 MR. OSTOJIC: He was also preparing with three witnesses, and I
17 undertook the responsibility, having met with Dr. Radovanovic in Belgrade
18 on a couple of occasions, so it was something that I undertook but had an
19 emergency that I had to fly out for, so I didn't want to burden him
20 further, as I have.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But can we check whether she's here in the
22 first place.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Our suggestion is that we break now. She's
25 definitely not here, and I wasn't imagining that she would be here a day
1 in advance. So the suggestion is that our staff will try to locate her,
2 see if she could be here as soon as possible. We'll have a 30-minute
3 break in the meantime. If she comes over, we'll start with her -- with
4 the Nikolic team examination-in-chief.
5 Ms. Nikolic, would you be in a position to start today?
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we'll continue tomorrow. And in the
8 meantime, our idea is to grant Mr. Ostojic permission to approach her.
9 Is there any objection from the Prosecution side?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
12 So let's try and work it out this way so that we don't waste more
13 time. Okay?
14 How long is your examination-in-chief likely to last? I know you
15 had indicated about two hours or something like that.
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I believe that
17 would be it, as envisaged.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a break of 30 minutes, and Madam
19 Registrar will inform us whether it's possible to proceed the way we
20 indicated. If not, we'll see what we have to do.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, on the Prosecution side now
24 Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Elderkin are no longer here, but we have
25 Ms. Lada Soljan. From the Defence side, I now notice that Ms. Tapuskovic
1 is present.
2 The expert witness is here, so we can start with her testimony.
3 But, Madam Nikolic, you have pending, pending because it was only filed
4 yesterday, what is called a second Defence motion seeking leave to amend
5 your 65 ter list of proposed exhibits in relation to this witness.
6 What is the position of the Prosecution, because quite obviously
7 we need to decide it before.
8 MS. SOLJAN: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Soljan.
10 MS. SOLJAN: The Prosecution does not object to this motion.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you so much. Is there any of the
12 Defence teams that would like to object? No objections, so the motion is
14 Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm sorry to intervene.
16 On the transcript, at page 55, line 21 --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment.
18 MR. OSTOJIC: 22, actually.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I have to go to page 55.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: Page 55, line 22, and this was during the tape
21 being played between a conversation that purports to have Mr. Beara and
22 Mr. Tolimir on it, and there's a reference on that line that Mr. Beara
23 used the word "Ustasha." I don't think it's on the transcript. It
24 certainly wasn't on the written transcript. I think it may have been an
25 error. But we'll look into it, but I just call your attention to that
1 I think my learned friends would agree that's nowhere within that tape or
2 on that written transcript. I just wanted to bring that up to the Court.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey. Thank you.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I would have remembered that. I don't
5 remember that word there, though you should know that that transcript is
6 a transcript that came with the tape, and we will review the tape and see
7 if -- and, you know, transcripts are not always perfect, so we will
8 review the tape, but certainly that word was not on any transcript.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you. Anyway, we did come across,
10 over the year, someone with the nickname "Ustasha." Toso, yes. That
11 probably should be Toso, yeah.
12 All right. Have you had an opportunity to speak to
13 Madam Radovanovic?
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I did briefly, Your Honour. All the documents are
15 not here that I wanted to go over with her. If I could have an
16 opportunity tonight to meet with her specifically on two tables that I'd
17 like to lead her on, it would be appreciated. I invited the Prosecution.
18 They could attend the session. It's just to go over simply areas that I
19 want to make sure she knows I'm going to ask her about. But I did go, in
20 part, during the break, I thank you for that, on some of the report.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the Prosecution has had enough of you for
22 the day, Mr. Ostojic, so let's bring in Dr. Svetlana Radovanovic.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: A very good afternoon to you, Dr. Radovanovic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
2 give expert evidence in this trial. You've been summoned by no less than
3 three Defence teams, as their expert. That's the Defence team for Beara,
4 the Defence team for Nikolic, and that for Pandurevic.
5 So before you start giving evidence, our Rules require that you
6 make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the truth. You're
7 going to be handed the text of the declaration. Please read it out
8 aloud, and that will be your undertaking with us.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: SVETLANA RADOVANOVIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Please make yourself comfortable.
14 Ms. Nikolic will be examining you in chief today.
15 Ms. Nikolic.
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Examination by Ms. Nikolic:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, Mrs. Radovanovic.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. For the record, although we know each other, I'll introduce
21 myself. My name is Jelena Nikolic, and I'm appearing for Drago Nikolic
22 before this Tribunal.
23 I would also like to ask you, as we are speaking the same
24 language, to make sure that our temper of speech is adequate so that
25 interpreters can follow.
1 I see that you have before you certain documents, so before we
2 start the official part of the examination, I would like you to tell the
3 Court and the parties what documents these are.
4 A. I have reports -- all reports made by Prosecution experts
5 relating to Srebrenica. I have my own report, and I have certain
6 documents that I have reviewed over the past few days in The Hague
7 the Prosecution has also disclosed them over the past few days. I also
8 have a case with documents in the witness room.
9 Q. Thank you. About these new documents, I suppose they are the
10 documents that the Prosecution disclosed on the 25th of July; last
11 Friday, that is?
12 A. Yes, but I also have some documents that the Prosecution
13 disclosed in May, but I've only seen them recently in The Hague.
14 Q. For the record again, please tell us your full name.
15 A. My name is Svetlana Radovanovic.
16 Q. Kindly tell us the date and place of birth.
17 A. I was born in Sombor, Serbia
18 Q. Please tell us something about your education.
19 A. I got my university degree from the University School
20 Philosophy in Belgrade
21 and obtained a Master's degree in the University Belgrade Faculty of
22 Geography. And I later obtained a doctoral degree in 1999. The topic of
23 my dissertation was the natural movement of populations of Serbia
24 doctorate was in the field of demography. The subject was populations in
25 Kosovo and Metohija, an ethnographic and ethnogeographic study.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us about your current occupation?
2 A. I work as a professor at the School of Geography
3 University of Belgrade
4 Q. Since when have you held this position?
5 A. 1999.
6 Q. In your job, which subjects do you teach at the School of
7 Geography at the Belgrade University
8 A. The School of Geography
9 demography. I teach at the chair of demography. I teach introduction
10 into demography, statistics of population, and ethno-demography.
11 Q. Kindly tell us about your experience in the field of demography.
12 A. My entire career is directly linked to the study of population
13 and demography. I got my first job in 1974 at the Republic Institute for
14 Statistics in Serbia
15 dealing with statistics, until 1992. My career in statistics, I finished
16 in the position of chief in the Department for Statistics of Population.
17 It covers all the services that are in direct contact with the
18 population, services for natural movements of populations, vital
19 statistics, that is, censor statistics and migration statistics. While I
20 worked at the Republic Institute for statistics, I was directly involved
21 in creating all the methodologies used by these services but particularly
22 the methodology of census. I participated indirectly in the census of
23 1971, namely, in the processing of data, not in creating methodology or
24 implementation of census.
25 In the 1981 and 1991 censuses, I was one of the members of what
1 was then an inter-public group for the implementation of the methodology
2 of the census and the processing of data, creation of tables, and
3 displaying final results of the census. By virtue of my job, I led the
4 1991 census in Serbia
5 From 1991 onwards, that is, until 1999, I worked at the Institute
6 for Humanities at the Centre of Demographic Research. The scope of my
7 work in that institute meant that I took part in a number of research
8 projects realised by this institute, and I personally led two research
9 projects. One of them related to the population of Yugoslavia, according
10 to the 1991 census, and another one to the agrarian population of
12 In 1999, I moved to the Geography School
14 I was also deputy dean. I continued to work at the geographic school of
15 the University of Belgrade
16 implemented by the School of Geography
17 Academy of Science
18 I also took part in the implementation of research projects of
19 the European Centre for Peace and Development of the United Nations.
20 To date, I have published over 60 scientific and research papers
21 that were published at the national level or at the international level.
22 Q. Are there any other projects that you were involved in, apart
23 from these?
24 A. Projects of the European Centre for Peace and Development,
25 projects of our Academy of Science
1 Q. Have you ever before testified as a demographic expert before
2 this Tribunal?
3 A. Yes, I testified in three cases; in the Galic case, and my
4 evidence had to do with Sarajevo
5 in the Simic et al case, relating to Samac and Odzak; and in a case that
6 was related to Srebrenica, but I can't remember the name of the client.
7 I can only remember the Defence counsel.
8 Q. Was it Blagojevic?
9 A. That's correct, Blagojevic et al.
10 Q. In relation to all these cases, you made your own expert report?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. If you would be so kind to tell us something about demography.
13 What kind of science is that?
14 A. Well, it's a very complex question, but I'll try to make it
16 Demography is a science that studies population, but it is only
17 one of the sciences dealing with population, and it has its own
18 particular aspects in studying certain phenomena related to population.
19 It studies the demographic development of population, interrelations,
20 causes and consequences of various trends that affect the demographic
21 development. To put it very narrowly, "demographic development" implies
22 studying two main components that affect increases and decreases of
23 population and changes in its quantity or quality. So it studies natural
24 movements of population, which again implies studying births, deaths,
25 natality, reproductive capacities. And another component is the movement
1 of population across territory; that is to say, migratory movements, such
2 as emigration, immigration, silent migrations, et cetera.
3 Demography is closely linked to other associated sciences, and it
4 uses the methods and achievements of those related sciences, just as, in
5 turn, it makes its own achievements and methods available to other
6 related sciences. In that sense, demography is a multidisciplinary
8 Within the framework of demography, there is a series of
9 disciplines that focus on specific phenomena, such as economic
10 demography, ethno-demography, medical demography, historical demography,
11 et cetera.
12 Certain authors characterize demography as the younger sister of
13 statistics. To put it more precisely, it's -- all this discipline is the
14 statistics of population. This speaks of the close relationship between
15 statistics of the population with demography as a science. Very often,
16 the scientific achievements and scope of demography, the level of
17 development of demography, depend on the development of statistics of
18 population; that is to say, to what extent statistics are able to provide
19 reliable information and long-time series, that's very important, based
20 on which demographic calculations and conclusions may be made. Looking
21 at it that way, if you have good statistics of population, demography is
22 able to study the development of population in the past, to provide its
23 scientific evaluation of the development of population in the present,
24 along with related problems, but also to forecast future developments of
1 That would be the briefest answer I am capable of.
2 Q. Would you be so kind and explain to us what is necessary to do in
3 order to be able to carry out reliable demographic analyses of a
5 A. In order to do any kind of reliable demographic analysis, of
6 course you have to have some demographic -- some knowledge of demography
7 and statistics, and also you have to be familiar with the methods applied
8 with demography and statistics. And it also helps if you're familiar
9 with other scientific methods, but the key element for doing reliable
10 demographic analysis is to have reliable statistical data. Only reliable
11 statistical sources of statistical data make it possible to reach
12 objectives and scientific conclusions about any phenomenon in demography
13 that you're looking at at any given time.
14 Q. For this case, you did an expert report entitled: "The Missing
15 and Dead in Connection with Srebrenica," the 2005 report, and the number
16 is 39 -- 3D 398.
17 Could you please tell us, what was your task? What was the task
18 that you had in front of you when you did this report?
19 A. It was my task to study all the reports done by Prosecution
20 experts that have to do with Srebrenica, to study and analyse all the
21 sources that were used by Prosecution experts in drafting their reports,
22 to study and analyse all the available sources of data that I can access,
23 to write a report in which I would also then talk about my work.
24 Q. When you were preparing this report, as you've just told us, you
25 went through all the expert reports produced by Prosecution experts?
1 A. All the reports that I knew of and that were accessible to me.
2 Q. Could you please tell us your opinion of the report drafted in
3 2005 by Mr. Helge Brunborg?
4 A. All the reports drafted by Mr. Brunborg and his associates are
5 based on results using methodologically inconsistent sources that abound
6 in errors. Depending on the sources, the error range is between 30 to
7 100 per cent.
8 Furthermore, the Prosecution experts modify the standards,
9 statistical and demography methods, in such a way that they adapt them to
10 their own needs so that they could get their own results. That is why
11 the reports proffered by the Prosecution experts cannot be considered
12 as scientifically sound, because they do not comply with any of the
13 principles. They don't even meet the minimum requirements that are
14 necessary for scientific research. It is my personal opinion that the
15 reports filed by Prosecution experts create a great deal of confusion in
16 the effort to get an objective perception of the events, and as such they
17 cannot contribute to an objective analysis and study and an attempt to
18 get at the phenomena and events they deal with.
19 Q. You're talking about the report filed by Mr. Brunborg from 2005?
20 A. Yes, I'm talking about that report, but also about the report
21 that was drafted by Dr. Brunborg in 2000, the report that Dr. Brunborg
22 wrote in 2003; and I'm also talking about two articles or papers that
23 Dr. Brunborg published. I received them here. They're also sort of
24 reports, so they were published in 2001, one in the Statistical Bulletin
25 of the United Nations, and the second one, which is entitled: "The
1 Genocide Count," I can't now see where it was published, but let me --
2 Q. Now I will start asking you questions about the basis for the
3 findings that you started talking about.
4 Can you please tell us something about the sources of the data
5 used? What sources were used, how many were used by the Prosecution, by
6 Mr. Brunborg in doing the report and getting to the findings?
7 A. Generally speaking about the data sources that could lead to a
8 better understanding of the events in Srebrenica, well, I don't know of
9 any, but Dr. Brunborg and his associates use four, or in the last report
10 they mention six sources. The sources are the records of missing persons
11 kept by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the records of the
12 Physicians for Human Rights, the 1991 census, the electoral roles for
13 1997-1998 and 2008. The latter was used in the last report, and in the
14 last report there is also the database on displaced persons, and yet
15 another source, data on exhumed and identified bodies.
16 Q. And now I would like you to tell the Trial Chamber how many
17 sources did you use in producing your expert report that was filed by the
18 Defence teams to the Trial Chamber.
19 A. Well, I used all the reports that were used by the Prosecution
20 experts - rather sources rather than reports - and all the sources that I
21 have been able to find in the Demographic Unit of the Prosecution and all
22 the documents that the Prosecution has disclosed to the Defence that I
23 have obtained from the Defence, as well as sources that I obtained myself
24 and that I felt might be relevant in relation to Srebrenica, such as the
25 Bulletin of Displaced Persons published by a Ministry of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and all those reports that were not drafted by
2 demographers, but that could contain some data that might be used to
3 orient oneself, such as, for instance, the report by Mr. Marin.
4 I'm not sure now, but I think that I used 22 reports. I'm not
5 sure about the number, but I can check. Twenty-two sources, rather. I'm
7 Q. Thank you. What I would like to ask you now: When you did your
8 analysis, did you notice any deficiency in the way in which sources were
9 used by the Prosecution in order to obtain their results and to do the
10 lists of missing persons in Srebrenica in 1995, or the list of missing
11 persons in 2005?
12 A. Well, I've already said that, but perhaps I was not clear enough.
13 All the sources have this major deficiency, because they're all
14 methodologically inconsistent and they contain a huge number of errors.
15 As I already indicated, the error range is between 30 and 100 per cent.
16 But Prosecution experts also note the key deficiencies in their reports,
17 and I fully agree with them.
18 For instance, in their reports -- or, rather, one of the papers
19 published, Dr. Brunborg highlights, as the key problems for the sources
20 that he has used, he indicates the problem of scope, of coverage. And
21 then there is the accuracy of the data in the source. And the third key
22 problem noted by him is lack of information. All those things indicate
23 that the sources of data are of low or limited quality.
24 Q. Thank you. Now I would like you to tell us, since you've already
25 mentioned all the sources that both you and the Prosecution used, to tell
1 us something about the Red Cross list, as one of the sources for the
2 data, the ICRC list, their missing persons list.
3 A. If you allow me, before I go on to say something about those two
4 key basic sources, I would like to note that I don't know how many
5 sources there are, and that at one point I tried to learn something about
6 at least those sources that are in the possession of the Prosecution.
7 But I always had to instruct the Prosecution and be quite specific about
8 what sources I was looking for.
9 I am saying this because I want to limit myself in this way to
10 say that perhaps there are other sources in the possession of the
11 Prosecution or someplace else that I have been unable to consult. So the
12 sources that I list are the sources that I was able to see in the
13 Prosecution, but I did not have an overview of all the sources and then
14 to say, "I want this, this and that," but I always had to name the source
15 that I was looking for. In order to be able to do that, I had to study
16 their reports and look for reference there. I listened to their
17 evidence, and then I was able to learn that there were some other sources
18 of data available.
19 You asked me to comment on the ICRC as a source and also the
20 Physicians for Human Rights list as a source. Dr. Brunborg notes that
21 these are the best sources that he used, and I would like to note that
22 these are the only sources in existence. I wouldn't go as far as to say
23 that they are the best, because you can't really compare them to any
24 other sources that would apply the same methodology and collect data in
25 the same manner. It is general knowledge that the International Red
1 Cross is a humanitarian organisation, and in this case it collected data
2 about missing persons, with the objective of making it possible for the
3 relatives to find their next of kin.
4 The methodology applied by the ICRC in collecting the data is
5 diametrically opposed to the manner in which statistical data are
7 Q. And what is it, this methodology?
8 A. I'll explain that, but the Red Cross is not a statistical
9 organisation and it was not bound by this methodology.
10 The methodology used by the ICRC to collect data was based on
11 questionnaires containing a certain number of questions, and the
12 questionnaires were filled in by people who came to report that their
13 family members or their acquaintances were missing. They filled them in
14 either personally or through the mediation of somebody else. The ICRC
15 then put some of those data into the computer, and every person was given
16 a numerical designation. This was probably done in order to be able to
17 process the data more easily, because the ICRC reviewed the data three --
18 two or three times. But as I said, it was not the task of the ICRC to
19 collect, correct, put data in the tables, in the same way in which it is
20 done by the statistics.
21 The ICRC published the data, and for a time you could even access
22 the data on the internet.
23 Unlike the ICRC -- or, rather, let me say this: ICRC worked in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991 until the end of the war, 1996, in other
25 words, but it is still active in those areas and it is now doing other
1 things. Unlike the ICRC, the Physicians for Human Rights did not cover
2 the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina in its operations, but it focused
3 exclusively on Eastern Bosnia. When I say "Eastern Bosnia," I actually
4 mean just part of Eastern Bosnia. And it has some data for Sarajevo that
5 it collected. And as we all know, Sarajevo
6 The questionnaire that was used by the Physicians for Human
7 Rights to collect their data, it has more than 20 pages. It is very,
8 very complicated. It includes some medical information and some other
9 kinds of expertise that's required. I don't know what the procedure is,
10 whether people came to their offices to report or whether their
11 researchers went out in the field, where they heard about some cases of
12 missing persons, but PHR collected information about the deceased persons
13 in order to put together an antemortem database.
14 As far as I know, the revision of the data collected by the PHR
15 was done once. This is what Dr. Brunborg notes; it was done in 1999, but
16 I don't know whether the data gathered by the PHR has ever been made
17 public anywhere.
18 Q. Just a moment, Professor. Now that we're talking about the PHR
19 or the database of the Physicians for Human Rights, could you please tell
20 us what area you're talking about? Is it the Srebrenica area or some
21 other area?
22 A. I'm talking about the area for which there are data. We have
23 data for parts of Eastern Bosnia, but it mostly deals with Srebrenica or,
24 rather, the area of Tuzla
25 data for Sarajevo
1 don't know that off the top of my head, but we can look at the report.
2 They started gathering information from 1991, but the data for years that
3 followed, 1992, 1993, varies greatly, a thousand, two thousand, but the
4 largest number is for 1996.
5 What I'm telling you now is based on Dr. Brunborg's report and
6 what I have been able to look at in the OTP Demographic Unit.
7 Q. Thank you. You talked about the quality of the sources, when you
8 talked about both the ICRC and the PHR. Could we wrap up this topic with
9 the following question: What is the quality of those sources, according
10 to Dr. Brunborg?
11 A. Well, according to Dr. Brunborg, their quality is not good, but
12 these are good sources. Well, this perhaps is a caricature, but if you
13 want me to, I can find the quote in his report, because Dr. Brunborg says
14 that in each of the two have their strengths and weaknesses. I haven't
15 been able to notice any advantages, but among the drawbacks he lists a
16 lot of empty fields, data that doesn't exist, a large number of errors in
17 the data that was in, especially when it comes to first name, last name,
18 date of birth and so on. But this might be characterized as an
19 advantage, although I don't see it as such. He says when you put
20 together the two sources, then you get a source where the two corroborate
21 each other. This doesn't sound logical to me, especially in light of the
22 number of errors. I can't see how the two reports corroborate each
24 And I would also like to draw your attention to this fact: Both
25 in statistical and in demographic terms, this is quite important.
1 Technically speaking, those two sources put together data that concerns
2 different units of observation. The Red Cross collects information about
3 the missing persons, and at one point they're not characterized in any
4 other way. These people are listed as missing, whereas the PHR collects
5 information about the dead in order to put together an antemortem
7 Q. When you were talking about ICRC lists as one of the sources for
8 your report, did you have occasion to gain insight into the raw material,
9 these questionnaires handed out by the ICRC, where all the necessary
10 information is filled in?
11 A. No, I did not have access to that. I invested a lot of effort to
12 get to the raw material. Generally speaking, raw material is very
13 important for statisticians. However, I am not an institution myself and
14 I was never able to get access to the raw material. As far as I'm aware,
15 not even the Prosecution has the raw material, I mean, those
16 questionnaires. I don't know whether they ever attempted to get them
17 from the ICRC, but I believe it would be extremely important to have them
18 and that, at the very initial stage, a major error was made precisely
19 because we are not in possession of the raw material that would give us a
20 great number of characteristics that could have, at a later stage, given
21 us a substantially different qualitative evaluation.
22 Q. What are these characteristics in questionnaires? I want the
23 Trial Chamber to understand what you're talking about.
24 A. The ICRC collects information about their first name, last name,
25 father's name, date and place of birth, and date and place of
1 disappearance, ethnicity and the status of persons who went missing.
2 When I say "status," it means whether the person was a soldier or a
3 civilian. You even have information about their rank, their unit, their
4 marital status, et cetera.
5 Q. Would this raw material facilitate more accurate identification
6 of people who were targeted by both reports?
7 A. Well, I won't talk about accurate identification, because it is a
8 fact that many errors were made in many rubrics concerning many
9 characteristics, but I think it would have been very important to a
10 professional demographer, statistician, to see that there are certain
11 characteristics, such as place of permanent residence, which in our case
12 is very important in order to define the area we are dealing with, and it
13 would have been very important, at the very beginning of the Srebrenica
14 project, to be able to establish that these were not solely civilians, or
15 non-combatants as Dr. Brunborg names them, that a great number of
16 soldiers are involved.
17 I think that qualitatively, it would have given us perhaps a
18 completely different view of the situation. Whether it would
19 quantitatively change the findings, I don't know, because I haven't seen
20 the raw material. However, when a professional statistician sees a
21 questionnaire, he can precisely define the unit and the area he wants to
22 study, and there is a very precise standard procedure in statistics as to
23 how to gather information, how to evaluate their quality, how to improve
24 their quality. And using that procedure, perhaps Dr. Brunborg would have
25 arrived at a smaller number of persons. That, I don't know, but I have
1 no doubt that the quality of information would have been significantly
2 better. Maybe the resulting number of persons would have been even
4 In any case, I emphasise the quality would have been better, and
5 it would have been important.
6 Q. How would that have affected the quality of the list of the
7 missing persons for 2000 and 2005?
8 A. First of all, I believe this piece of information, the place of
9 permanent residence, is very important, because the ICRC gathered that
10 information. It was not officially published. I cannot of its quality.
11 But it would have been very important, because it precisely defines the
12 area that needs to be analysed.
13 And, generally speaking, in all reports there is this horrendous
14 problem of defining what is Srebrenica. In different situations, it is
15 viewed differently. I was about to say it was defined differently, but
16 there is no definition. It is viewed very differently. It could be 13
17 municipalities, 15 municipalities, or anything else. If we had this
18 piece of information, we would have qualitatively different information,
19 or at least we would have had a sample of permanent residence.
20 Another important thing, it would have dispelled certain
21 illusions about the status of missing and dead persons resulting from the
22 events in Srebrenica in 1995.
23 It is a fact that this list does not include only non-combatants,
24 but combatants as well.
25 Q. Kindly tell us, why is the 1991 Bosnia and Herzegovina census and
1 the voters' lists for 1997-1998 important as a source of statistical
3 A. It was important to the Prosecution experts for two main reasons.
4 The census was important to them in order to prove that the persons
5 recorded in their list are not fictitious, nonexistent persons; that they
6 were real persons who existed in reality because they were recorded in
7 the voters' lists for 1997 -- in the 1991 census, sorry.
8 Voters' lists, as a source of information, had the purpose to
9 prove that there are no survivors included in the Prosecution's lists of
10 dead, but I have to explain this more elaborately.
11 The method used by Prosecution experts is the method of matching.
12 What does "matching" mean? The method of matching means that using a
13 proper statistical procedure, you can, from two or more sources, identify
14 a certain statistical unit, that is, a person in this case, in more than
15 one source. How can you identify it? You identify it by establishing an
16 identification key. The identification key represents certain
17 characteristics based on which you can, with a great degree of
18 reliability, claim that the person from one list has been identified in a
19 second, third, or fifth list. When the key is numeric, it's not a
20 problem, and all of us in our daily lives use the method of matching.
21 Everybody who has a bank card falls in one database. They form
22 one group, and the banks have their database. In order to collect money
23 from an ATM, you have to put your card in, of course, but you have to
24 also provide a key, that is, a sequence of four or more numbers. If you
25 do not identify yourself properly by this numeric key, there is no
1 matching and you can't collect the money.
2 Since in some of these censuses we don't have numeric keys, since
3 in some of these sources we don't have keys, we have them in the census
4 because everybody has their own unique identification number, but we
5 don't have them in the ICRC lists.
6 Then the Prosecution experts had to choose an identification key
7 for matching. This key should meet the elementary requirements for
8 reliability of the resulting finding. Prosecution experts have 71 keys.
9 Using 71 keys, if you ask me, you can match anything you please, and the
10 fact that Prosecution witnesses have 71 keys would not be such a great
11 problem, although it's completely inappropriate, if the Prosecution
12 experts had, in any one of their reports, cited the statistics of
13 matching by individual keys.
14 What does statistics of matching me mean? That means on the
15 first criterion, name, father's name, date of birth, we found so many
16 matches. Without the father's name, we matched 30 per cent. Without the
17 date of birth, we matched 70 per cent. Why is this important? Because
18 these statistics demonstrate the combinatorics based on which we can make
19 a judgement on which information can be accepted as relatively reliable,
20 as opposed to information that we should reject as completely unreliable.
21 Q. Thank you. If you have finished with this segment, I would like
22 to go back to the 1991 census.
23 A. I was about to take a breath and -- well, by matching your list
24 with information from the census, Dr. Brunborg identifies persons and
25 says: "I claim that these persons do exist, and they were recorded in
1 the census of 1991." Such matches amounted to 87 per cent, in
2 Dr. Brunborg's report, on, I emphasise, 71 criteria. Why they arrived at
3 87 per cent, I really wasn't able to discover.
4 On the other hand, by matching with voters' lists, if you ask me,
5 this matching was not done using all criteria, because using all criteria
6 you should be able to find a lot of matches. You have certain criteria
7 that use only initials and a date of birth, plus/minus five. In the
8 census of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you have three Svetlana Radovanovics.
9 According to this criterion, Dr. Brunborg would identify me as
10 well, although I'm a resident of Serbia. So in my opinion, in order to
11 identify survivors, in comparison with voters' lists, Dr. Brunborg did
12 not use all this criteria. And not only did he fail to use all this
13 criteria. I wouldn't know whether he used the first or the second or the
14 first, second and third, because it's impossible to determine. Instead,
15 Dr. Brunborg narrowed down the area within which he is making the
16 matches, seeking matches.
17 What does "narrowing down" mean? When he identifies a list of
18 survivors -- or, rather, when he looks for survivors in the census,
19 compared to his list, then the survivors could be anyone in Eastern
21 population of Eastern Bosnia. When he seeks to identify survivors, he
22 doesn't identify them in all Bosnia-Herzegovina, which would have been
23 normal, because the voters who had fled from any locality in 1991 had the
24 right to vote in other municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They even
25 had the right to vote from abroad. So people living in Srebrenica,
1 whatever that means, whether it's just Srebrenica municipality or the
2 surrounding five municipalities, did not have to register for voting only
4 So Dr. Brunborg is not looking for voters from all over Bosnia
5 He is not even looking for them in Eastern Bosnia. He's looking for them
6 in certain frameworks that he defines as Srebrenica. What does that
7 mean? That means that he completely overlooked a significant number of
9 I made a test only on Srebrenica municipality. From the
10 Srebrenica municipality, I was able to find over 12.000 people who
11 originally come from Srebrenica and registered for voting in Tuzla
12 Jajce, Sarajevo
13 those, one-third are men of 18. Within the number of voters who come
14 from Srebrenica originally, but registered to vote abroad, I found 2.000.
15 So a significant portion of the population of Srebrenica, and I'm talking
16 only about men because I took into account only men, were not even taken
17 into account when trying to find matches, and I think that is very
19 Q. In order to establish that, did you spend some time working on
20 the material available at the Demographic Unit of the OTP here in
21 The Hague
22 A. Yes. I spent seven days working with this material in 2007.
23 Q. Professor, I have two corrections for the transcript. On
24 page 86, lines 6 and 7, you said that according to the matching methods,
25 using 71 keys, possible matching were 71 to how many per cent?
1 A. No, I did not say that. I said if you have 71 keys for matching,
2 you can match anything. Now, what's the problem with this? If you don't
3 have complete identification based on which I can assert with full
4 certainty that Svetlana, daughter of Dragan Radovanovic, was born on 18
5 November 1949, when I say "completely reliably," that's with a great
6 degree of reliability, that such a person was identified also in another
7 source of information, then the problem is: How can you decide that
8 somebody has initials or just the last and first name without father's
9 name, or just last and first name and the year of birth? How do you know
10 that this is indeed the same person?
11 If you have information about the place of birth that may or may
12 not be true, and you have no information about permanent residency, then
13 you are forced to use something that Dr. Brunborg qualifies as the visual
14 method, which of course exists as such, but in statistics the visual
15 method is not so important as it may be in some other sciences. I'm not
16 saying this method does not exist.
17 In the logical control of certain information in the
18 questionnaire, you use the visual method. I can see that this is the
19 person that graduated from primary school and cites his occupation as
20 university professor. Of course, looking at these two piece of
21 information, I see something is wrong, and then I proceed to look at the
22 whole questionnaire to show me where the mistake is, whether it's with
23 the degree of education or with the current occupation. That's the kind
24 of visual methods that statisticians use. But any visual method,
25 including this one, opens the door to subjective decisions, and
1 I think -- in fact, I don't think, Prosecution experts say that thousands
2 upon thousands of cases were determined using the visual method. I'm not
3 saying that all of these thousands relate only to Srebrenica, but I'm
4 saying that method is used here in many reports, and that's why
5 I think -- in fact, I don't think, it simply isn't reliable because it
6 may be subjective.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] We have completed one topic, and
8 perhaps this could be a good moment to adjourn until tomorrow.
9 Thank you, Professor Radovanovic. We will continue tomorrow.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you think you need,
11 Ms. Nikolic?
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Well, I expect, Your Honour,
13 certainly 45 minutes, perhaps even an hour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Ostojic?
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, we had requested --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Four hours.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You had requested four hours.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought it was an hour and a half, but I'll look
20 into that. I think in total, we may have put "four hours," because each
21 team were going to take a half an hour and a half, but I'll look into
22 that. I don't believe that I personally was going to ask for four hours,
23 but I'll look into it. It won't be four hours. It will be closer to an
24 hour or an hour and a half.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Haynes?
1 MR. HAYNES: I'll see where we've got to, but it looks like
2 everything's going to be pretty comprehensibly covered before me.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: And Ms. Soljan, what's your expected duration of
4 your cross-examination?
5 MS. SOLJAN: At this time, I believe two hours, as we had
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So tomorrow we'll have the extended sitting. In
10 other words, we'll finish at 3.30. All right?
11 MS. SOLJAN: Your Honours, just for the record, I wanted to
12 indicate that at page 75, line 19, there was an error. It talks about
13 electoral roles for 1997 and 1998 and 2008. It should be 2000.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Soljan.
15 We'll stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
16 Thank you.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 30th day of
19 July, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.