1 Monday, 25 August 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon. Madam Registrar, could you kindly
7 call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam.
11 For the record, all the accused are here. The Prosecution is
12 Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye. And from the Defence side, I notice
13 the absence of Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes. Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes.
14 Yes. Are there any preliminaries? None.
15 So we proceed with your first witness, Mr. Ostojic.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good
17 afternoon and welcome back. Our first witness will be Dr. Professor
18 Slobodan Remetic, and I think we all have his report.
19 We've also provided the booth with the report, both in B/C/S and
20 in English, so that it may be easier for them to follow some of the
21 linguistical terms that we may be using today.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Professor. Can you hear me?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can hear
1 you very well.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: What I wonder is whether you know who's talking to
3 you, because you're looking at the wrong direction.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I know.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That makes it better.
6 I will be speaking in English, and most of the proceedings today
7 will be in English. You will be receiving interpretation simultaneously.
8 If there are problems with interpretation, please let me know
10 You've been summoned here as a witness by the Defence team of
11 Ljubisa Beara. Before you start your testimony, our Rules require that
12 you make a solemn declaration that you will be speaking the truth, the
13 text of which is being handed to you now. Please read that out loud, and
14 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? May I start?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: SLOBODAN REMETIC
20 [The witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Professor. Please make yourself
23 Mr. Ostojic will go first. He will then be followed by others on
25 Mr. Ostojic.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Examination by Mr. Ostojic:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Professor.
4 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Ostojic.
5 Q. As you know, my name is John Ostojic, and I will be asking you
6 some questions here today, and hopefully we can finish today with at
7 least my direct examination.
8 Sir, can you, for the record, please state your full name for us?
9 A. Slobodan Remetic.
10 Q. And, Professor, I note from your CV and in other papers that you
11 have written that you are a professor as well as a doctor. How would you
12 like me to refer to you, as "Professor Remetic" or "Dr. Remetic"?
13 A. It doesn't really make any difference. You can just call me
14 "Mr. Remetic." It's okay as well.
15 Q. Fair enough. Mr. Remetic, before you, you have a set of
16 documents, and just so that the record is clear, can you just share with
17 us what those documents are?
18 A. I have received 18 intercepts from the Defence counsel
19 representing Mr. Beara. I have also received a short curriculum vitae of
20 Mr. Beara. I've also been provided with the statements of the operatives
21 who allegedly recorded the intercepted conversations. I also have
22 received the NIOD's criticism, i.e., their review of the work of the
23 operatives. And I believe this is -- this sums up the most important
24 things that I've had.
25 Q. And, Mr. Remetic, we'll go through your report in order to
1 explain and expand on some of the items that you give opinions on, but I
2 just needed to know: In front of you today, on the table that's before
3 you, can you just tell us, do you have your report there dated the 18th
4 of April, 2008? Do you have that?
5 A. Yes, I have before me the text of the report that I submitted on
6 the 18th of April to the Defence counsel.
7 Q. And just so the record is clear and our record is clear, it's
8 2D551 that reported the 18th of April, 2008.
9 Also before you, sir, you referenced 18 intercepts. Do you have
10 a packet of those 18 intercepts with you as well?
11 A. Yes, I have the intercepts as well. They are right before me,
12 next to the linguistic analysis of the intercepts.
13 Q. And we'll be going through that a little later in our discussion
14 here this afternoon. I just wanted to know what you had in front of you.
15 Now, let's talk about you, yourself, first. And can you give us
16 a little background? When were you born and where were you born?
17 A. I was born on the 3rd of August, 1945, in the village of
18 Kovacevici, municipality of Kladanj
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I completed elementary school and secondary school
20 in Kladanj. I went to university in Novi Sad, and that's where I
21 graduated from the School of South Slavonic Languages in 1970. I
22 obtained my masters degree in Belgrade
23 doctoral degree at the Faculty of Philosophy in Novi Sad in 1984.
24 Q. Thank you for that. And can you share with us what your
25 profession is currently?
1 A. Currently, I've been dealing with intercepts most of the time,
2 but, generally speaking, I'm a professor at the School of Philosophy Nis
3 and I'm also part-time professor at the School of Philosophy
4 Luka. I'm a member of the Academy of Sciences
5 I'm in charge of a project there, and I'm also in charge of a project of
6 the investigation of the dialect of the Serbian language, which is
7 conducted by the Institute for the Serbian Language with the Serbian
8 Academy of Sciences
9 Q. And I note on page 3 of your report, 2D551, you list some of your
10 other academic accomplishments, if you will. Is that correct?
11 A. I don't know what you mean. I am a member of several editorial
12 boards. Actually, of the three editorial boards of the leading
13 linguistic magazines in Belgrade
14 the Onomatological Proceeds and the South Slavic Philologist. These
15 magazines are published by the Serbian Academy
16 a member of the seven scientific committees of the Serbian Academy
17 Sciences and Arts and I'm also the deputy secretary of the department for
18 literature and arts in the Academy of Science
19 Srpska. I'm a member of the editorial board of the Encyclopedia
20 Republika Srpska. As you can see, I have a lot of duties, a lot of
21 things on my hands.
22 Q. I do, I do see it, and thank you for that, and that's why I just
23 wanted to highlight it's in fact in your CV, which is within your report.
24 Also, you identify in your report various publications that
25 you've written; is that correct? And I think you list approximately four
1 pages worth of publications in which you've authored or co-authored in
2 specifically the science of linguistic and dialects, or the study of
3 dialectology; is that correct?
4 A. I've published around 200 scientific and professional papers
5 published by the Serbian Academy
6 country and abroad. I am also a member of the commission for the general
7 South Slavic Atlas with the International Committee of Slavic Experts,
8 and I'm also on the editorial board for the General Carpathian Dialect
9 Atlas. I have also published about 40 dialectological maps for Slavic
10 languages in the Carpathian area. Most of my works concern dialectology,
11 although I'm also concerned with the history of the Serbian literary
13 Q. Now, when were you first contacted by the Beara Defence team to
14 review and analyse certain intercept conversations?
15 A. This happened in October last year. I got a telephone call. I
16 believe you were in Sarajevo
18 Q. Prior to October 2007, had you known any members, personally, of
19 the Beara Defence team, including the lawyers or the support staff?
20 A. No, I didn't know anybody before the month of October.
21 Q. Prior to October 2007, did you know Mr. Ljubisa Beara or any
22 members of his family?
23 A. People are familiar with the family name "Beara" because the most
24 famous footballer's name was Beara. But I was not familiar with the name
25 of Mr. Ljubisa Beara. In October, when you contacted me, I didn't know
1 who you were talking about. It was only when I met with the lawyers in
3 defence I was supposed to take part.
4 Q. And just so the record's clear, you didn't know any members of
5 his family either; correct?
6 A. No, I didn't know anybody then. I subsequently met his wife, but
7 the answer would be "no."
8 Q. Now, can you describe for us briefly what task, if any, was
9 assigned to you for purposes of analysing these purported intercept
10 conversations? What was your assignment?
11 A. My assignment was -- at least that's how I understood it -- to
12 look at the alleged intercepts, to analyse them, and to see whether they
13 could be attributed to Mr. Beara, whether the text or the words that he
14 allegedly uttered were in those intercepts, because in the transcripts
15 that I had available to me for the most part alleged that they were.
16 Q. And were you given any other assignment over the course of our
17 professional relationship since October 2007 to do any other sort of
19 A. I can't remember exactly when I was told that I should also pay
20 attention to the semantic -- to the meaning of some of the words, to look
21 at that as well. I believe that the word in question is the word
22 "triage" and also to look at the name "Ljubo" and the status of the name
23 "Ljubo" in among the Serbian names. My task was to see who the name
24 "Ljubo" could be referring to based on the literature and on my
25 experience. These were the two things that I was supposed to pay
1 particular importance to.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, Professor, we're going to turn to a couple
3 things, and you're going to help us have a better understanding of your
4 report. And preliminarily I'm going to ask you some general questions,
5 and if you would be kind enough to explain to me what these terms mean.
6 For example, the first term, so that we're on the same page, can you tell
7 me what is the study of linguistics?
8 A. What do you mean when you say "the study of linguistics"? In
9 what terms?
10 Q. The study of languages, in general, and then we're going to go
11 specifically to dialects. So dialectology and linguistics, can you
12 explain to us what that is?
13 A. The dialectology, you mean? Dialectology is a linguistic
14 scientific discipline that deals with the dialects of different people.
15 Dialectology, as a discipline in Europe, took off the ground and gained
16 credibility in the 19th century.
17 In our parts, it was in the beginning of the 20th century when
18 dialectology became known as a scientific discipline. In Serbia, the
19 first dialectologist was Vuk Karadzic. He was the one who started the
20 first division of dialects.
21 Dialectology is very important as a discipline, which is
22 corroborated by the fact that in Serbia
23 century were primarily dialectologists. They were Aleksandar Belic
24 [phoen], who was the founder of dialectology as a scientific discipline,
25 who was a member of all the Slavic academies of science. And his best
1 disciple, Mr. Pavel Ilic, was a member of eight academies of science
2 among which the American Academy of Science
3 Science, the Academy of Science
4 dialectologist for the Encyclopedia Britannica. He authored the entry on
5 dialects. Dialectology occupies a very high position as a science, and
6 this arises from the matter that it deals with.
7 Dialects are an inexhaustible treasure trove of data and
8 information about the life of a people, of a nation. When it comes to
9 linguistic facts that are available to a people, this reflects its entire
10 history, its entire past, relationship in society, culture, ethnology,
11 the spiritual and material culture as well. Dialects provide information
12 which are of great value, of great value for several disciplines, for
13 interdisciplinary research, and that is why dialectology is such a
14 reputable science, and that's why it holds such a reputable position in
16 For example, the science of names or onomasticon, comprising the
17 names of people, rivers and mountains, reflect the traces of all the
18 civilizations that have lived in an area. We know perfectly well today
19 that even long before Cleopatra's romances with Roman emperors, most of
20 our rivers were called the Sava
21 others. These facts speak of the importance of dialectology as a
22 scientific discipline.
23 And like among the Serbs, among the Croats, the leading linguists
24 of the past century and today are primarily dialectologists; for example,
25 Brozovic, who is the leading Croatian linguistic, is primarily a
2 And there is one more thing I would like to add, if I may.
3 Dialects are threatened, they are at risk. Dialectology is hard pressed
4 for time because civilization, with all its different forms of literacy,
5 is suppressing dialects. It threatens them with complete extermination,
6 and that is why dialectologists are hard pressed to complete the task
7 that they haven't completed, and we in the Balkans are lagging behind in
8 many things, dialectology not being an exception.
9 Moreover, I would like to say that our dialects, the Serbian and
10 Croatian dialects, and Bosniak as well, needless to say, are very
11 interesting from the point of view of topology. They show that the
12 history of the area has given us such a variety -- such a mosaic of
13 dialects, such relationships which are very often a rarity in European
14 terms. Our accent, our polithemy [phoen], our dialects, are a rarity, a
15 very specific feature in planetary terms. Many foreigners have tried
16 successfully to write books about our dialects, because our dialects are
17 a challenge, they are inspirational, even for foreign scientists who have
18 often dealt with the issue of our dialects.
19 Q. Thank you, Professor. And I'm not a linguist or a
20 dialectologist, but I would like to clarify a couple of things.
21 You mentioned that dialects provide us with a treasure trove of
22 information on the life of a people and a nation. But what I would like
23 to know specifically from you, Professor, is: Can you obtain information
24 about an individual person from his dialect and the characteristics that
25 he may use in his speech or pattern of speech? Is that something that's
1 within this field?
2 A. Let's clarify two things. One thing would be the research of
3 dialects on the ground, when you actually investigate the autochthonous
4 people who are often illiterate and who use a certain dialect. This is
5 where a dialect can easily be observed, very clearly be observed. Truth
6 be told, there are no pure dialects anywhere, because civilization has
7 had its impact on all the dialects. We may be talking about that a
8 little bit later. And when it comes to the educated people who are not
9 part of the rural population, who are not the autonomous -- the
10 allochthonous inhabitants of rural areas, then the task becomes a bit
11 more difficult. But there is an old truth which says that some things
12 cannot be hidden. One of them is cough, the other is love, the third is
13 poverty, and the fourth one is dialect or speech. These cannot be
14 covered up or hidden.
15 The difference between the research of orthodox dialects and the
16 attempts to determine, in a literate or educated man, his affiliation,
17 the difference is the following: In a dialect, you can find the traces
18 of literary speech, and in an educated person you are looking for traces
19 of a dialect. In other words, the proportions are reverse or they oppose
20 each other. We're talking about reverse proportions. In any case, it's
21 very difficult or almost impossible to hide one's dialectological origin.
22 Q. So am I correct if I say that dialectal characteristics can be
23 used as reliable personal identifiers?
24 A. The degree of reliability in determining the identity is directly
25 proportional to the quantity of linguistic facts and the core of facts
1 available to the expert who wishes to determine the identity in question.
2 The more -- the wealthier the core of linguistic facts, the higher the
3 chances of success. Viscosity of linguistic fact core makes the task
4 more difficult.
5 Out in the field, when a dialect is being researched, the
6 situation is much more favourable for the researcher. The researcher has
7 questionnaires, masters the subject matter at hand, solicits discourse
8 from the interlocutor, forms terms which are relevant to the researcher
9 to reach a conclusion. In cases like this, you have what you have. You
10 have to work with what you've been given.
11 Q. And we'll get back to the linguistic corpus as you identify it in
12 your report, but what I'm asking you is whether or not we can use
13 dialectal characteristics as personal identifiers. Can you tell, from
14 listening or reading someone's text, whether or not they came from a
15 certain region or from another region, or from hearing their voice?
16 A. Mainly, it can be determined. From personal experience, I can
17 tell you that I grew up in Bosnia
18 Herzegovinian Krajina. This is a new Stokavian dialect. For a long
19 time, I spoke Ijekavian dialect in Novi Sad and Belgrade
20 director of Serbia
21 I spoke Ijekavian, but then I switched to Ekavian, which is not
22 difficult. But I never, in speaking with people I knew or did not know,
23 I never wanted to hide my identity. They used to ask me, for hundreds of
24 times, whether I originated from Uzice. It is a town in Western Serbia.
25 The dialect spoken there -- the base dialect is the same as in my case,
1 the Ijekavian. And before departing to The Hague, when I spoke to Madam
2 Beara, when we met, she said I spoke -- I was speaking like somebody from
3 Uzice, that I lengthened some vowels like the people in Uzice. When we
4 talk about dialectological characteristics to determine somebody's
5 origin, we have to deal with the dialect as a whole, as a linguistic
6 system, and in this very prominent role is played by somebody's accent,
7 by somebody's prisodics [phoen]. This cannot be hidden.
8 Serbian language contains four inventories of accents or
9 stresses. Some two, some three, some have stresses like in Germany
10 German or English. Then quantities after the accented syllable cannot be
11 hidden, either. Practice has shown that people who do not have a long
12 vowel after the stressed syllable cannot mimic that.
13 I've listened to Belic's speech, a recording of his speech, and
14 this Belic was the greatest linguist in Serbia, he originated from
16 syllables, which is characteristic of Belgrade. We also know people who
17 are autochthonous Ekavians, and we know of people who best preserve the
18 politomy [phoen]. The best Ekavian literally-linked language has been
19 demonstrated by Professor Jovan Vukovic, who hailed from Dermitol [phoen]
20 and lived in Sarajevo
21 different ways of expressing the same word. Some swallow their vowels.
22 As Zivanovic used to write, somebody reduce their vowels. Some have "ch"
23 and "dj" and not "ch" and "dj" as sounds. Some characteristics cannot be
25 So as I said, speech tells volumes about an individual.
1 Q. Thank you, and we'll get into that in more specific terms when we
2 look at some of the intercepts before you, but we're talking about
3 linguistics and linguistical characteristics, and what's a dialectal
4 variant, if you can explain that to us? Just briefly, if you don't mind.
5 A. Well, "dialectological variants," do you mean by that variants of
6 this Serbian-Croatian literary language?
7 It is known that recently, during the recent events in the
8 Balkans, that the Croatian and Serbian linguistic community broke up,
9 together with the common state, and it is known that Serbs and the Croats
10 for 100 years used to have a common literary language, the Serbo-Croatian
11 or Croat-Serbian. It was reached in the following manner: In Zagreb,
12 after a lengthy discussion, very fierce debate in 1889, the Croatian
13 Parliament, the Sabor, adopted the decision to promulgate the new
14 Stokavian common Vuk Karadzic type of language as the official language.
15 Immediately after that in Zagreb
16 textbooks of that language. 1892, Ivan Broz published the Croatian
17 orthography. Then Tomo Maratic [phoen], a major scientist, published the
18 grammar and stylistics of the Croatian or Serbian language. And then in
19 1902, Ivan Broz and his uncle, Vrankovic [phoen], published the
20 dictionary of the Croatian language. In the preambles and the forewords
21 of all these publications, it is written that they were modelled after
22 Vuk Karadzic and his most prominent follower, Ljubo Danicic and that they
23 used examples for their textbooks from Vuk Karadzic and Danicic's works.
24 Maratic explained this by saying that he did so in his desire to take
25 from the best, and Vuk was, in his words, the best among us, what Cicero
1 was for the Romans, Vuk Karadzic was for us. These were the times when
2 people wanted to strive for some common purposes, and therefore we
3 received a common language. It was never the same, because there were,
4 from the very beginning, some regional variance and differences. History
5 made sure that the eastern variant of the language remains Ekavian and
6 that Zagreb
7 they failed. There were consistent differences between the eastern and
8 the western variant in the lexic, in words, and this is why in Zagreb
9 just as other Slavic languages under the Hapsburg monarchy, translated
10 Germanic words, in the fear of Germanisation, into their languages,
11 whereas in Serbia
12 schnitzel. In Zagreb
13 prescribed norms, but of course in life the linguistic practice differed
14 from the norm.
15 What is the most important for our story in all this is when it
16 comes to the "jat," the long "jat," that's the Ijekavian reflex of the
17 "jat," it is -- so that this "jat" is reflected in "dijeta" [phoen] and
18 "lijepo" [phoen], as prescribed by orthography, but in speech from
20 illustrates the dialectal -- dialectological variance, and this gave
21 birth to divergent languages.
22 Q. Thank you for that answer. Now, I think we understand dialectal
23 variance a little bit. And I'm getting this from -- just so -- if you
24 can follow along --
25 A. Could you please repeat your question? I did not hear it. Could
1 you repeat your question, please?
2 Q. I will. Thank you, Professor. I'd like to direct your attention
3 briefly to the last page of your report, which is page 30, and that's why
4 I'm asking you about the dialectal variance and the linguistical
5 characters. And just so I can get a brief answer on this. And we'll get
6 back to the different accents and the dialects and the regions from which
7 they come. But my question, if you look on the last page of your report,
8 the second-to-last paragraph, you reference morphological feature, and
9 what I'd just like to know, you reference a word called morphological
10 feature and what I'd like to just know, even briefer than your last
11 answer, if you can provide us with a better explanation or understanding
12 of what a morphological feature is.
13 And I could direct your attention, if the Court doesn't mind,
14 it's the second-to-last paragraph, in the middle of that sentence -- or
15 in the middle of the paragraph, I should say.
16 A. In the middle? I'm not sure whether we have the same texts. Do
17 you mean the conclusion?
18 Q. Yes. The second-to-the-last paragraph, so I think it's page 29
19 in B/C/S.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
22 Q. We'll get back to this. I just want to have a foundation and a
23 basis so that we can have a discussion here and have a better
25 The paragraph starts, Professor, as follows -- are you on the
1 last page? You can put your headset directly on top of your head. That
2 might help you a little.
3 A. I'm too short. I'll have to go upwards in the text.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Can you start speaking so I can check whether I can hear you?
6 Now it's better.
7 Q. The paragraph -- second-to-the-last paragraph of your report of
8 the 18th of April, 2008, starts as follows:
9 "A comparison of the language of the alleged intercepts and
10 Mr. Beara's current manner of speech has brought to the surface the
11 diametric opposition."
12 You go on to identify these dialectal variants and this
13 morphological feature. And if you look specifically on page 29 -- so
14 turn to your report, which is in B/C/S, on page 29.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you see the highlighted word on the very last sentence on
17 page 29 of the B/C/S, which says "sjor"?
18 A. Yes, I can see it, I can see it now.
19 Q. It's that line immediately above that, and you use the word
20 "morphological feature" and all I'm trying to do so that I can better
21 understand your report, Professor, is to have you explain what that
22 means. And we'll come back to the conclusion. So just tell me from a
23 linguistical standpoint or a dialectologist's standpoint, what does it
24 mean when you reference a morphological feature? What are morphological
1 A. Morphological features are forms -- is a conjugation and a
2 declination, forms of cases of nouns, pronouns, adjectives and numbers,
3 and conjugation refers to verbs. Then we have phonemes, which are
4 sounds, and these are forms, these are words.
5 Q. Now, just tell me, if you can just as briefly, what a lexical
6 domain is? And, again, you reference that in your report, I think, three
7 words after "morphological feature," so just so we could have a better
8 understanding of that.
9 A. "Lexical domain" means words. Language, as a system, has several
10 domains; phonological, morphological, lexic and syntactical. Lexic is
11 the most open domain to foreign influences. There is a proverb, there
12 are no limitations, there are no boundaries to a language with words
13 which are borrowed from other languages. They follow technology that we
14 borrow from other civilization as well. For instance, words referring to
15 the material, spiritual culture, these are the vocabulary that we adopt,
16 this is the lexic. And this domain contains most borrowed words and
17 terms in any language, because this subsystem is the most open of them
18 all. Our dialect reflects the very tumultuous history of this area.
19 There were guests arriving here, both invited and uninvited. In the
20 literal -- or along the coastline, you have many Romanisms. In the
21 north, Vojvodina, we have many borrowed words from the Hungarian. Then
22 all over the place, we had many Turkish borrowed terms because of five
23 centuries of Ottoman domination, then from German language. Then when
24 ideologies converged, we have many Russian words as borrowed words, and
25 now we cannot defend ourselves from Anglocisms. This has always been so
1 and it will always be so.
2 Q. I just want to clarify a word that you mentioned earlier today.
3 When you discuss these regions and the influences by other entities
4 within the region of the former Yugoslavia
5 line 3, the word "topology." Could you just define that for us? I think
6 we understand what you mean. It's not in your report. It was actually
7 page 10, line 3 of today's transcript, Professor. So just tell me what
8 you mean when you say the word "topology."
9 A. Typology, like as in type, typology. This is a typo here.
10 Typology of dialects, types, classes, categories, classification of
11 dialects, this is typology. This is not topology. It must have been a
12 mistake by either me or whoever transcribed this.
13 Q. Thank you for that. We just wanted to clarify that. A couple
14 more definitions and I'm sorry for that, but I just want to make sure
15 that I have a better understanding of your report. What is a linguistic
16 diachronic or diachronics within linguistics?
17 A. This is a study of a language through a historical period,
18 diachronical study. Diachronic linguistics or dynamic linguistics means
19 that it studies a history of a form or of a language. Synchrony is
20 opposite of diachrony. Synchrony means right now this is a study of
21 languages or a linguistic system or a certain feature in a cross-section
22 in time, a snapshot in time. This today means this description of
23 today's status of the linguistic system of a language. Diachrony is
24 history and synchrony is today. This is in the most simplest terms.
25 Q. And just tell us the various regions, republics of former
2 what the dialect was that was spoken by the people residing in a certain
4 A. The Serbo-Croatian linguistic area is divided into three
5 dialectic complexes, the Stokavian, the Kajkavian, and the Stokavian --
6 and the Cakavian. Stokavian is the most widely spread, originated in the
7 medieval Serbian states and adjoining areas. The Cakavian dialect was
8 created in the medieval Dalmatian Croatia and the adjoining areas, and
9 the Kajkavian dialect originated from the Pannonian area of today's
11 were migrations which are a very important fact of the dialectology, both
12 Serbian and Croatian. With the invasion of the Ottoman Turks, there were
13 mass migrations, the Cakavian dialect boundary was moved and Cakavian
14 dialect expanded at the expense of the Cakavian due to those migrations.
15 Cakavian dialect's boundary used to be more to the west than genetically
16 Stokavian and Cakavian are closer together, whereas Kajkavian dialect is
17 closer to Slovene.
18 Q. Thank you, Professor, but the transcript is having a little bit
19 of trouble keeping up with us, and I apologise for that. And just so
20 that I'm clear, you mentioned -- I'm probably going to butcher it,
21 Stokavian and then you also mentioned Kajkavian, and the one that we
22 didn't get was the Cakavian, which is "C," with an accent on it,
23 a-k-a-v-i-a-n; correct? It just didn't come up on the transcript, and I
24 want to verify that that's the third one. Is that correct, Professor?
25 A. Well, for our purposes, the Cakavian dialect is very important.
1 Kajkavian is of no import for us today dealing with this matter. The
2 Cakavian originated and was created in the medieval Dalmatian Croatia, in
3 the hinterland, very narrow swath of hinterland, and on the islands. The
4 Unacetina [phoen] line was the western boundary of the Cakavian which was
5 pushed back due to migrations.
6 Is there a need to further analyse the distinction between the
7 Cakavian and the Stokavian, or would this suffice for the time being?
8 Q. For the time being, it does suffice. Thank you. I just wanted
9 to make sure all three were properly in the record so that we can follow
10 it together.
11 Now, within each of these, are there various or variant dialects?
12 For example, in the Cakavian one, are there different dialects that are
13 from that region, which is the Dalmatian, as you described, and Croatian
15 A. As I said at the beginning, the dialectal core of Serbian,
16 Croatian and Bosniak, very differentiated. There is a jigsaw puzzle of
17 those dialects, and within the dialects, of course, there are
18 differences. Within the Cakavian dialect, there are three different
19 modes of speech. We have the Ekavian and Cakavian in the west, like deta
20 [phoen]. Further to the south, we have Ikavian, like in dica [phoen],
21 which is spoken in Split
22 the Ikavian. And there is an Ekavian-Ikavian transitional dialect which
23 is not of interest to us. And in the very south, the island of Lastovo
24 speaks Ijekovski, Ijekavian, and there are differences between
25 Stokavians, Ikavians, Ekavians and Ijekavians. Cakavians do not have
1 Ikavski and Ijekovski. We are going to discuss this further on.
2 In the distribution and classification of dialects, the sound
3 "jat" is the most important element to distinguish the dialects among
5 Q. And we will -- trust me, we will get back to this "jat" and to
6 discuss that among other features and variants within the language, but
7 right now I'd like for the Court, with its permission, to direct their
8 attention and my learned friends to appendix 3 of your report, which is a
9 dialect map. And I happen to have the original book that I think you
11 With the Court's permission, I have provided my learned friends
12 the book so they could see it. This is the only original we have.
13 I think it's better colour-coded, so if the Court doesn't mind, although
14 it's in e-court, maybe we could just very briefly go through the
15 different regions within this book. And it's three pages, two of which
16 are attached to his report, so it would be this page and this page, and
17 then also ... thank you.
18 And, Professor, as we're putting the book on the ELMO, can you
19 tell me, what is this book?
20 A. This is an excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia. The
21 entry is Serbo-Croatian, Croat Serbian language, Croatian or Serbian
22 language, and here you can see a summary of the history of the national
23 language, the history of the literary language, and the dialectological
24 complex of the Serbs and the Croats. The book came from the hands of the
25 two leading Serbian and Croatian linguists of their time. Those were
1 Pavle Ilic, a member of the academy that I've already mentioned and
2 another member of the academy, Dalibor Brozovic, the leading Croatian and
3 Serbian linguists, and the latter is still alive today. This is a
4 summary of what can be found in the Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia.
5 Q. And because you use it, sir, in your appendix 3, I just wanted
6 the Court and my learned friends to have it so they could look at it as
7 well, and it's a little better because we didn't have colour copies to
8 attach to your report.
9 The first one you can see, which is on the screen hopefully
10 before you and directly to the right on the ELMO is the Cakavian one; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes. Here, yes, yes, this is the Cakavian dialect, of course.
13 Yes, that's clear.
14 Q. In fact, it says so right on top, right on the top of the page.
15 And below that, although we can't see it on the ELMO yet, is the
16 different dialects from that specific region, and if the Court permits,
17 if the usher could just zoom out a little. You can see it there, and
18 I think the grid below on the lower left-hand side -- if we could have
19 the whole page, that would be helpful, if possible. On the lower
20 left-hand side of that page, it actually highlights with different
21 colours what the various dialects are that you previously identified for
22 us; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And if we could turn to the next page, which is a
25 two-page map of the former Yugoslavia
1 the Stokavian; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then the third one, which you say is not necessarily relevant
4 to --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- our purposes is the third page, the very next page, which is
7 the Kajkavian?
8 A. Kajkavian, yes.
9 Q. And as to each --
10 A. It's irrelevant for today's story, that's for sure. And as for
11 the Cakavian, only the Ikavian-Cakavian is interesting. That's the
12 speech commonly used in Split
13 interested in today.
14 Q. And I just wanted us to have it for purposes of completeness so
15 that we could see the entire former region and how the various dialects
16 were distributed or utilized in the former Yugoslavia. So with the
17 Court's permission and the usher's assistance, if we can please turn to
18 the first photograph, which is the Cakavian, yes, that one, with the
19 various dialects on the bottom that we see, correct, and I think you were
20 proceeding to tell us that it's this one that for our purposes is
21 important. So can you please set forth for us the differences, if any,
22 in the dialects within these regions where they spoke Cakavian?
23 A. The differences exist within Cakavian, but they're of not so much
24 importance for us. In the west, there is the Ekavian variant, which can
25 be found in the basis of the words such as in "pesma," and it is also
1 preserved in the declination. For example, we say "ugradu" [phoen], and
2 in the old dialect they used to say "vagrada" [phoen], and this has been
3 preserved. And now in the Ekavian, which is in blue, we have also a
4 transitional area Ekavian Ikavian, where according to the Myer and
5 Kabinsky [phoen] rules, the "jat" results in the vowel E or I, and in the
6 south we have the island of Lastovo
7 the dialect.
8 I don't know how interesting this might be for you when it comes
9 to the phonetics that analyse or differentiate the Cakavian dialect. We
10 can also speak about the semivowel, the short, accentuated semivowel.
11 For example, on the island of Krk
12 "a" and the shortened "o," whereas on the island of Cres
13 the short vowel result in different vowels, and also when it comes to the
14 Cakavian features, we have an entire Cakavian area that is swamped under
15 the Roman influences. This is what we call the so-called Adriatisms or
16 the adopted words. First they were called Adriatisms, and now they are
17 called Dalmatianism upon Brozovic's proposal, and that is what is used
18 today in the linguistic science. These are various features that have
19 developed under the influence of the Romanic neighbours with whom these
20 people had to coexist, and this is what we can find in "L," such in
21 Ljubo, which transformed in a "J", Ljubo, and then we have the
22 transformation of "M" into "N," and hence the anecdotes involving the
23 words "I am" or "I am not," "yes" and [indiscernible] that we heard from
24 Mr. Beara. What we're interested in here is the Ikavian Cakavian dialect
25 as spoken in Split
1 Cakavian that we are interested in here.
2 Q. And thank you for that, and we'll come back and focus
3 particularly on that. My general question to you, Professor -- and thank
4 you, Mr. President and Madam Usher. I think we don't need the book any
5 further, but I'd like if we just make sure the colours are properly
6 photocopied. If not, I would just ask that we will amend it to put the
7 three pages so that the Court has the proper colouring of the various
8 dialects within the region. But we can discuss that at another time, if
9 the Court wishes.
10 If I may proceed.
11 So, Professor, my question to you is -- yes, thank you. Are
12 these dialects actually distinct and unique, and can a person such as
13 yourself, a linguist and a dialectologist, can you, immediately upon
14 hearing one's speech, identify primarily from what region a person may
15 come from?
16 A. Dialects differ. They bear different names because of the
17 differences. Their different names reflect their differences. That's
18 one thing.
19 Second of all, when it comes to identifying somebody, there are
20 two approaches present or two angles. The first principle is the
21 principle of elimination. I have to eliminate where the person is not
22 from, if you know that person.
23 Dialects, when we talk about people speaking Stokavian and
24 Cakavian, they have different variants, and the differences are even
25 bigger. There are differences within dialects within groups of people
1 speaking the same dialect. These differences are not always of the same
2 intensity or of the same type, but they are clearly discernible. An
3 expert, a competent expert, that is, can, without any major problems,
4 identify the person as speaking a certain dialect if that person is using
5 the dialect. If you give a -- provide a dialectologist with five tapes
6 with five different dialects, he will listen to them, and within ten
7 minutes he will be able to identify the speech that the dialects come
8 from. This is for sure.
9 And, finally, ultimately, even people who are not experts, who
10 are not competent, who are not specialists in the field, based on the
11 experience from their contacts with people from different areas, people
12 can actually tell. Also, they can do it based on the names. For
13 example, if people speak like me, based on the name, they can be
14 originated back to the Western Serbia.
15 Q. Okay. I know we eliminated one of them, the Kajkavian one. Can
16 you draw a distinction ever so briefly between the Stok avian and the
17 Kajkavian speech patterns and the relevance to your task that was
18 assigned? And just if you can, show us or draw the distinction between
19 the two, if possible.
20 A. If I'm not mistaken, you're referring to Cakavian and not
21 Kajkavian. We have eliminated the Kajkavian. Are you referring to the
22 area from which Mr. Beara hails and where he comes from, where he
23 resided? If the answer is "yes," then it's Cakavian, not Kajkavian.
24 Q. I may have misspoken, but I thought I had it right.
25 A. Yes, you have misspoken, yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Between Stokavian and Cakavian, can you draw any
2 distinction so that we could better understand it between the two and
3 what relevance it had to your assignment, if any?
4 A. The basic and the most discernible difference between the three
5 speeches that have given these speeches, their names is the form of the
6 pronoun in German "vas" [phoen], or in Latin -- if that would be "quid,"
7 that would be "stokaj" [phoen] and "cha" [phoen]. That's the pronoun
8 that has been given the names to these speeches.
9 The next difference is between the Stokavians and the Cakavians
10 comes from the accents, from the prosody. The Stokavians have two short
11 accents, the short rising, as in "djena" [phoen] and "zesta" [phoen], and
12 they have a descending accent in the vocative, as in "djena" and "zestro"
13 [phoen]. This is very unique in European terms.
14 Furthermore, the difference between Stokavians and Cakavians also
15 arises from the different vowels they use. Stokavian people speaking
16 Stokavian have explosing [as interpreted] affects, at least one. They
17 have a "dje" and a "gdje" and many have even a "dze." For example,
18 "major," in Cakavian it is "meja." We have "dje" and they don't have it,
19 and many of our speeches also have a "dze." Obviously, this is in
21 In Stokavian, the noun may be expanded into "craljevi" [phoen]
22 and "crajevi" [phoen], and in Cakavian it is "kralaj" [phoen] and "kraj"
23 [phoen]. The vowels and the consonants are under the influence of the
24 Roman speech or the Roman dialect. There is a lot more Roman words, and
25 in our parts there are a lot more Turkish words, German words, and those
2 Q. Okay. Thank you for those examples. I know there are many,
3 many, many more, but let's just, for the purpose of brevity, just try to
4 give these couple of examples and we'll go on with the rest of your
5 report where you can highlight for us, if you don't mind, Professor, some
6 of these other distinguishing features and variants.
7 What I'd like to know, sir, here is you mentioned that you
8 reviewed four things in connection with the intercepts on Mr. Beara, the
9 NIOD report, statements from witnesses, the transcript and a short
10 biography. Can you share with us who provided you with the background of
11 Mr. Beara's biography?
12 A. As for the background of Mr. Beara's biography, it was one of the
13 lawyers who has provided me with those. One of you gave that to me,
14 either John Ostojic or Stanisic, or somebody in Belgrade.
15 Q. And the person in Belgrade
16 there on a couple of occasions was one of our investigators, Mr. Milan
17 Stanic; correct?
18 A. Milan Stanic, yes, yes, that's what I said, Mr. Stanic. Milan
19 Stanic was the one, I suppose. I suppose that Milan Stanic gave this to
21 Q. It doesn't really matter who gave it to you. Just share with us
22 what is the information that was provided to you regarding Mr. Beara's
23 biography, if you don't mind.
24 A. Mr. Beara's biography is something that was necessary. I needed
25 it. I was supposed to elaborate my methodology based on that biography.
1 I was supposed to elaborate my methodology based on that biography. I
2 was supposed to adopt an approach based on that biography. I wanted to
3 see where he resided, where he worked, and I needed to compare the
4 dialectology situations or the speech variants in the various places
5 where he resided, where he grew up, and to compare that with the language
6 of those alleged intercepts.
7 Since he grew up in Sarajevo
8 the coast, then he spent most of his career in the Cakavian territory,
9 and he often travelled across the hinterland inhabited by the Herzegovina
10 and Krajina dialect-speaking people. In the transcripts I was looking
11 for the links that might tie the transcripts with Sarajevo or the area
12 where he subsequently lived and worked. I must admit that I had expected
13 to find some traces of the dialects from his youth and childhood.
14 Let's be clear on one thing. When you analyse a speech or the
15 linguistic patterns used by a high-ranking officer of the Yugoslav
16 People's Army, then you have to start from the fact that that person will
17 probably speak a very correct literal language and that the dialect or
18 the localisms are a minority. They may creep in as something that cannot
19 be hidden and that will reveal the origin of that person.
20 I was also interested in the fact whether the literal language
21 spoken by that person, whether it was the so-called western variant or
22 the eastern variant, as spoken in the former common state, and this is
23 where I wanted to find my departure point or the orientation point from
24 which I could see how things stood. Obviously, most of the work I
25 carried out and most of the effort I invested before I actually met with
1 Mr. Beara and before my conversation with him.
2 Q. Did you give -- did you request that you meet with Mr. Beara so
3 that you could fully understand his linguistics characteristics and the
4 dialect that he may be speaking today? Did you meet with him, actually?
5 A. I must say that if I'm not mistaken, quite a long time ago I
6 expressed my wish to meet with Mr. Beara. It took a while for my wish to
7 be granted, and we actually met on the 7th and 8th of April this year in
8 the Detention Unit in Scheveningen.
9 Q. And just briefly before our next break, if you can tell us who
10 was present during the first meeting you had with Mr. Beara at the UNDU?
11 A. Mr. John Ostojic, Ms. Jelena Dzambasovic, the interpreter, and
12 the lawyer from -- he was tall and he --
13 Q. Can I help you? Chris Meek?
14 A. Chris Meek, yes, yes, yes. He was there the first day, and the
15 following day it was just Mr. Ostojic, Ms. Dzambasovic and myself on the
16 second day.
17 Q. Tell us with respect to the -- what was your purpose for wanting
18 to meet with Mr. Beara?
19 A. From the very beginning of my cooperation with the Defence
20 counsel, I was faced with a major handicap, which was the lack of any
21 audio recordings. I only had the transcripts of the alleged intercepted
22 conversations, very poor in linguistical terms, and we will speak about
23 the difficulties that I encountered there a bit later, and I wanted to
24 hear the way Mr. Beara speaks now. I wanted to meet him and see how the
25 written language, as encountered in the transcripts that are attributed
1 to Mr. Beara compare with his actual speech today. I wanted to draw a
2 comparison and see.
3 Q. Thank you. So, in essence, you were doing an evaluation and
4 analysis of his current speech pattern, despite the fact that it was 13
5 years after the purported intercept conversations that were captured,
6 from 1995 to 2008?
7 A. Yes. I must admit that I was very surprised with what I heard.
8 Q. Professor, we'll --
9 A. -- in my conversation with Mr. Beara. As it turned out, in free
10 communication with the Defence lawyer, the interpreter, and me as the
11 expert, he used the Cakavian dialect as spoken in Split. This is the
12 typical Cakavian Split dialect.
13 Now, when he uses the features of a literary language, then as a
14 rule it is the Croatian variant of the once common language which is
15 today known as the Croatian language. I was more than surprised with the
16 fact that after such a long time, he still uses the Split dialect, and my
17 general observation, which will be elaborated a bit further, is that his
18 current speech is in sharp collision with what can be found in the
19 transcripts of the alleged intercepts. There is a very sharp collision
20 between those transcripts and the speech pattern that he uses today.
21 Q. And let me just spend a couple of minutes that we have with
22 respect to those meetings.
23 The first meeting, you did basically observations between the
24 conversations that Mr. Beara and others in the room had, and you were
25 basically observing us talking and discussing various things; would that
1 be accurate?
2 And I apologise for leading. I just want to get through this
3 little section.
4 Is that right, Professor Remetic, that the first day, you were
5 observing as I was talking with Mr. Beara, and on the second day, just to
6 show somewhat of a difference, you were actually asking him certain
7 questions and certain words, and you were taking notes; correct?
8 A. I remember the first sentence that Mr. Beara uttered. He asked
9 Ms. Dzambasovic, "Why are you so pale?" That was the first thing he
10 said. I must say that I was surprised. The time that I spent in
11 Scheveningen and the conversation that I had with Mr. Beara was a major
12 experience for me and a major revelation which was rife with surprises.
13 In that case, I could do what I am not allowed to do as a dialectologist.
14 When a dialectologist goes into the field to talk to people, there are no
15 suggestions allowed or any questions. This is strictly forbidden.
16 On the first day, I had a notebook in my hand and I was
17 eavesdropping on the conversation between the people. It was a rather
18 relaxed conversation. The mood was relaxed. He was talking to -- Beara
19 was talking to his lawyer, the interpreter. There was a cup of coffee in
20 front of everybody. They were joking. I was listening to them and I was
21 taking notes. I was there in my capacity as a dialectologist, and I was
22 very surprised when I heard him speak, the way he spoke. And when I
23 realised that I was dealing with a person of a very high level of
24 intelligence, very cooperative, very noble in his willingness to
25 cooperate, I could even put some questions to him, I could ask him about
1 certain linguistic forms.
2 Q. Thank you. I just want to clear up these two things. And just
3 so the record's clear, you kept and created notes during those two
4 meetings which we have for the record and as my learned friend knows,
5 we've identified them or a copy of those notes as 2D584; is that correct,
6 Professor Remetic? Not that you need to know the number, but you had
7 provided us an original and we had copied the notes from that meeting?
8 A. I have provided you my original notes. I didn't know that you
9 would ask for them. I was doodling, I was drafting my report. I
10 underlined some things in black or green, I crossed some things over.
11 This was my working material, as you could see, and I've provided you
12 with that material and I've kept a copy for myself, obviously.
13 Q. And we've sent it forward to the Prosecution, and I think I got
14 it -- when did you provide that to us; a couple of weeks ago when I saw
15 you in Belgrade
16 A. Yes, precisely.
17 Q. Now, I want to come back to an issue that you said the first
18 sentence or the first words you heard Mr. Beara utter was with respect of
19 Ms. Dzambasovic's pale complexion. Now, can you tell us, in the
20 different dialects, how would you say the word "pale"?
21 A. Well, this is what it's all about. Obviously, we're dealing with
22 the "jat." In Ekavian, it would be "bleda," in Ikavian it would be
23 "bljeda," in Ijekavian it would be --
24 Q. Excuse me. You're going a little way too fast, and we're having
25 a hard time hearing even the distinction between the three. So if you
1 can just please kindly -- and I know we're ready for a break --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: And maybe we could take a deep breath and take a
4 break here.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. That's what I was going to suggest.
6 Twenty-five minutes, please.
7 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Thank you, Professor Remetic. If we could proceed, but if I
11 could just clarify the last -- before the break, we just had a little
12 discussion of the word "pale," and I'm going to spell it, and I ask my
13 colleague if I can lead a little bit on this so we have it on the
15 Q. It's my understanding, sir, that there's at least three ways that
16 you could say the word "pale" in Serbian, depending on the dialect. The
17 first one would be "bleda," which is b-l-e-d-a, the second one is
18 "blijeda," which is b-l-i-j-e-d-a, and the third one is "bljeda," which
19 is b-l-j-e-d-a.
20 Am I correct that those are the three that you were trying to
21 convey to us before the break?
22 A. Yes, these are the three basic ways. Of course, "bleda" is
23 literally prescribed, "blijeda" is also literally, and "bljeda" with l-j
24 is a dialect form of the word.
25 Q. And that's the third one. Can you tell us of those three, which
1 one Mr. Beara utilised in describing Ms. Dzambasovic?
2 A. Before me, I have my notes, and the first word is "blijeda," and
3 the next is "bleda." When I first heard that --
4 Q. I apologise for interrupting. If you could be kind enough, and
5 I think we have it, but just for our purposes here, to spell it out as
6 well. And you have the transcript in front of you, and I know your
7 English is limited, but I think you can see when they don't pick up some
8 of the words that you're using.
9 So, again, the first word that you used is "blijeda,"
10 B-L-I-J-E-D-A; correct?
11 A. Yes, the first one is "blijeda," which is the norm of the Serbian
12 and Croatian literary language. In the Serbs of the Ijekavian type and
13 in the Croatian language of the literary type. "Bleda," B-L-E-D-A, is
14 the norm of the Serbian literary language, the Ekavian variant; for
15 instance, as spoken in Belgrade
16 This is not a literary norm.
17 Q. Okay. Were you able to derive anything from the characteristics
18 of Mr. Beara's speech in utilising these first words in your first
20 A. As I said, the "jat" sound, how it is reflected in the dialects,
21 is the most important element in classifying the Croatian and Serbian and
22 Bosniak dialects, and from the very moment I heard "ubljdila," "going
23 pale," U-B-L-J-D-I-L-A, and "stosimi bljeda," "why are you so pale,"
24 B-L-J-E-D, that what I had confronted was a Croatian literary language.
25 And the Croatian spoken variant of the literary language, because in
1 Croatian textbooks it is prescribed that it should stand as
2 B-L-I-J-E-D-A, but in spoken practice mainly, this is reduced to a single
3 syllable pronunciation of "blijeda," B-L-I-J-E-D-A. "Blijeda" can be
4 heard in Serbian speeches, speech types -- yes, this is correct, yes --
5 can be heard, as I said, in Serbian speech types of the Adriatic
6 hinterland, where Mr. Beara often resided as part of his duties. This is
7 the way it is spoken in Zagorje, or the hinterland, in Dalmatia, where
8 Serbs live, in Lika, and it was clear to me from the very first moment
9 that there were no traces of the Sarajevo
10 would be "blijeda" or I-J-E-D-A. So he did not speak, in terms of
11 dialect or literary language, like the inhabitants of his native
13 I had a dilemma, whether the word "bljed," B-L-J-E-D originated
14 from the Croatian spoke literary language as spoken in Split. When one
15 tries to speak correctly, using the literary language, or whether it went
16 for the reflex or influence of Serbian speech types of the hinterland of
17 the coast, as I mentioned. Very soon, I got my answer, and on the first
18 page of my notes, which look like this [indicates] because I did not know
19 in advance that this would be used subsequently - this is my working
20 material - very soon I heard Ikavian features instead of Sarajevoian
21 Uvijek, always, U-V-I-J-E-K, and what is also the literary form.
22 Mr. Beara would always say "uvik," U-V-I-K.
23 Furthermore, similar examples were to follow. For instance,
24 "Dida," instead of "Djed," D-J-E-D or "Djed," among the Serbs, Ekavians,
25 or "deda" like in Ekavian, then the verb "triba," T-R-I-B-A, after ten or
1 so minutes, to my surprise, I realised and I was surprised, but I
2 realised that Mr. Beara, in free, open conversation with his
3 interlocutors and people he knew, and in that context I was there for the
4 first time, that he speaks the Cakavian-Ikavian Split dialect or speech
5 type. And it will later transpire, when he would be speaking literary
6 forms, that he would be using, as a rule, the Croatian or western variant
7 of the once-common language, which is today the Croatian literary
9 Mr. Beara's speech on the 7th and the 8th, and the language of
10 the transcripts are -- as a rule, are two different, disparate
11 categories. They're incompatible, as a rule.
12 Q. Thank you. And we'll come back to that specific opinion that you
13 have a little later, as it's reflected in your report. I'd like to ask
14 you now, and we're going to move along in your report, if possible, but
15 first: Did you feel that the seven to eight hours was adequate and
16 sufficient for you to evaluate the speech pattern of Mr. Beara in order
17 to assist you in formulating your analysis and opinions that you're
18 providing in your report and here today?
19 A. The seven or eight hours spent with Mr. Beara, which were filled
20 not only by his speech, understandably we spoke also, Defence counsel
21 spoke, I joined in the conversation, I asked him questions,
22 understandably is not sufficient to write a dissertation or a study about
23 his speech patterns. One would need a larger corpus of discourse.
24 Let me remind you that my doctoral thesis was written on the
25 basis of 200 hours of recordings. This is something completely
1 different. But this, however, was sufficient to draw conclusions to get
2 the general picture, and Mr. Beara identified himself in terms of his
3 today's speech patterns during the first or initial stage of my
4 conversation. And on the first page of my notes, I jotted down the most
5 material bit, and it is sufficient, when it comes to the content of the
6 transcripts, which hopefully we'll elaborate on later, is later scarce,
7 very poor, very limited. In terms of subject matter, it's very narrow,
8 and in terms of quantity, it is insufficient. But most probably we will
9 cover these later on.
10 So it was sufficient to hear Mr. Beara, that 17 years after he
11 left Split
12 Q. In your professional experience, Mr. Remetic, can a person shift
13 from one dialect to another within a relative brief period, given that
14 you observed and conducted examination of Mr. Beara both in a casual as
15 well as a formal question-and-answer session? Can a person shift that
16 quickly or are you, as a professional, able to detect specifically those
17 dialects and those differences in his dialect and speech?
18 A. When it comes to Mr. Beara, he did not switch that quickly. As I
19 know he spent some 20 years living in that area, I must say that I gave
20 it quite a bit of thought and I mused how he pulled it off that, in front
21 of me, to deviate from his dialect and to accept -- to suppress his own
22 dialect, to adopt a different dialect, and to stick to it after so many
23 years. For me, this presented a great problem, to decipher this
24 conundrum, if we depart from the presumption that the transcripts may be
25 connected with the name of Mr. Beara. He was an Ikavian speaker before
1 the end of the war. How could he have abandoned his speech patterns and
2 then readopted, after the war, and during this middle period he spoke
3 something else? For me, this is a challenge, I must tell you.
4 And if you allow me and if this is the proper place to say it,
5 I can tell you, as a person who is nearing his academic career, research
6 career, a man with a wealth of experience, I've heard many dialects
7 spoken out in the field, and had I -- if I were 30 years younger, I would
8 have found a way to research, in depth, the speech patterns of Mr. Beara
9 to see how could one switch to another dialect and to stick to it. This
10 would be a very good subject matter for research, for study.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, you mention in your report various limitations
12 or problems that you experienced in reviewing the documents that were
13 provided to you, and directing your attention to Roman numeral VI of your
14 report, Professor, you list specifically five. And just briefly, I'd
15 like to go over them with you, although you've mentioned some of them,
16 such as a lack of audio recording which would be beneficial and helpful
17 to you. And the second aspect of it is you see the difficulty with the
18 fragmentation of the linguistic expression of the alleged intercepts, and
19 then you talk about number 3, which is the linguistic corpus, which
20 I think in essence, and you correct me if I'm wrong -- which was the
21 material that was provided to you was limited, in the sense in the number
22 of conversations and/or the length of the conversation. Would that be
24 A. Unfortunately, all these things are true, and these presented
1 Q. And then you list two other limitations or problems that you
2 experienced with respect to the material that was provided to us by the
3 Office of the Prosecution, and that is I think you looked at some of the
4 statements and you felt that there was choppiness or lack of clarity of
5 the recording, based on specifically the handwritten transcripts. If you
6 remember on some of them, they had specifically the three dots, which is
7 standard for words that were omitted because they are unclear, ambiguous
8 or indiscernible; that would be another problem that you saw within those
9 manuscripts, if we can call them that; correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And then you list out, as a fifth problem or limitation that you
12 found particularly difficult was the orthographic and grammatical rules,
13 and you identify enclitic and proclitic. And just for our benefit, could
14 you expand on that and tell me what an enclitic and proclitic is, but
15 very briefly, and why did you find that somewhat problematic for you?
16 A. Enclitics are words, in the Serbian language, which do not have
17 their own independent stress but are pronounced together with the
18 preceding words, and they such create a stress unit. And enclitics are
19 usually truncated or shortened versions of verbs, pronouns, or ligatures.
20 Q. In essence, really an enclitic is what goes at the end of a word
21 and a proclitic is what goes at the --
22 A. At the end or after the words. The proclitics are words which do
23 not have their own accent or stress, but form an accent unit with the
24 ensuing word, the word they lean towards. There are rules of how
25 enclitics and proclitics are to be written down, and there are -- there
1 is the danger that less educated people may make mistakes in writing them
3 For instance, the negation "nee," together with verbs, is to be
4 written down separately, "nee" and then "radi," "nee jeda" [phoen],
5 "doesn't eat," "nee prica" [phoen], "doesn't speak," but "neerad"
6 [phoen], as a noun, has to be written as one word.
7 Q. I think. I think that -- go ahead, please.
8 A. And then from the erroneous transcription of proclitics and
9 enclitics, I derived an opinion that the operators were not, if I dare
10 say so, educated well enough, in terms of language, for that type of
11 work. They had problems of that type.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. And in that same section, you talk about
13 orthographic -- orthography, as well as phonological principles, and is
14 that basically what you were referencing now, those two concepts? Or if
15 you like, you can explain those to us, and then we're going to move on to
16 the specifics here as soon as we can.
17 A. Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak orthography, since everything
18 derives from the Vuk Karadzic principles, is a phonological orthography,
19 the so-called phonological orthography. This is the Vuk's rule: Write
20 as you speak and read as written.
21 Pursuant to those rules, there should be as many graphemes and
22 phonemes, there should be as many letters as there are sounds, and
23 everything should read as written. "Scheveningen" would be ten letters,
24 ten sounds. "Sudnica" would be seven letters, seven sounds. There are
25 exceptions, however, in orthography -- words or forms, rather, are
1 written down in such a manner as it would be impossible to pronounce
2 them, in concrete terms. "Ds" -- consonants "D" and "S," are different
3 in terms of whether voiced or unvoiced in Serbian and Croatian and
4 Bosniak language. When they co-locate, there is an automatic shift and
5 an alternation. They are simulated by their characteristic of being
6 voiced or unvoiced, and they cannot stand next to each other if they are
7 different in this characteristic. In the nominative, "Sudac," in the
8 genitive case, "Sudica," they cannot stand together, or "Vrabac" in the
9 nominative case and "Vrabica." "D" and "S," "B" and "C" cannot be
10 pronounced, but they are written down in this form because this is the
11 correct orthography. And in certain transcripts, when they say "odseku,"
12 O-D-S-E-K-U, or "predsidnik" [phoen], from that I saw that they adhered
13 to what they learnt in school. They did recall some of these things,
14 because I'm sure that these things were not pronounced as they were
15 transcribed. It is impossible to pronounce such clusters without much
16 effort, and people on the battlefield have other things to occupy
17 themselves with, and of course, this is not their job.
18 Q. And let me ask you this: You had the opportunity to review the
19 witness statements or testimony of the various -- or some of the
20 intercept operators. Were you able to use, as a baseline, or determine
21 whether or not the operators used a certain technique or method in how
22 they would capture the conversation, or would they just interpret the
23 conversation as they wanted to, or what was their rule of thumb in
24 capturing some of these conversations, if you recall?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Objection. That's outside the field of his
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment while I have to deal with this.
3 Do you wish to respond to that?
4 MR. OSTOJIC: I can lay further foundation, if the Court wishes.
5 I'll do that. I'll just ask him a question, and I think it will be clear
6 to my learned friend.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Vanderpuye, because already as it
8 is, it's getting very tiring.
9 MR. OSTOJIC:
10 Q. Professor, when we look at the fourth limitation that you have in
11 your report under section 6, Roman numeral VI, you identify the
12 sloppiness or choppiness of various intercept transcripts that you
13 reviewed. Do you, sir, and have you had any experience with respect to
14 listening to audio recordings?
15 A. What do you mean, "experience"? My own experience, do you mean,
16 in my profession, or generally speaking?
17 Q. Yes, in your profession.
18 A. In my profession. In my experience, you mean. You know, I paid
19 a lot of attention to the statements of these people, because we are
20 colleagues in one way. I spent all my life recording in the field and
21 listening to the recordings. I've even used the same technique. They
22 mention Uher, and I used Uher to record thousands upon thousands of hours
23 of conversations and dialects, and I even went to the Kladanj area, where
24 some of the operators hail from. You will find it in my CV also.
25 However, the circumstances under which I recorded were better or much
1 better, my technique was always working properly and I never reused the
2 same tapes. I would then listen to them in my house, in peace and quiet
3 of my home, in ideal conditions, but there are always difficulties and
4 there's always a lack of clarity when you're listening to these tapes,
5 and I very often asked for the second opinion of my colleagues from the
6 same profession, when I listened to things that I didn't find clear
7 enough, and these people really worked under very difficult conditions.
8 They had obsolete technique, and they had to re-use the same tapes, and
9 they worked a lot. If you go on recording for four hours, it's very
10 tiring, and it's a job that demands concentration, and especially when
11 you listen to these tapes. It arises from statements that they would
12 transcribe immediately after recording. They were already very tired,
13 and I would say that their job was really very hard and their position
14 was not enviable at all.
15 Q. From reading the statements, did you rely on those statements
16 from those various operators in formulating some of the opinions that
17 you've reflected in your report of the 18th of April, 2008?
18 A. I don't remember having found a lot in the transcripts. What I
19 noticed was that their language was very uniform. I did not notice
20 anything in their language that would be uncommon for the dialect for
21 that area. They are high school graduates. Only one was an engineer.
22 Two had an associate degree. They come from an area that I'm very
23 familiar with. I don't know whether the uniformity of the languages, the
24 consequence of the fact that it was all typed by one and the same person.
25 I wouldn't know that because I don't have any information about that.
1 The only explanation I found for some interrupted conversation, when it
2 says in the transcripts "unclear," "cannot be heard," I believe that you
3 remember what I'm talking about, you will find it in transcripts, I found
4 an explanation, people had problems with frequencies, they very often did
5 not have a proper electricity source, they worked with batteries, and
6 that would the explanation for the shortcomings in the transcripts.
7 Q. Do you remember if, within those statements that you reviewed,
8 the intercept operators were instructed on how they should record the
9 purported captured conversations?
10 A. I can't remember any instructions. I only remember, from their
11 own words, that they were mostly Hamm
12 real professionals among them, as far as I can remember, but they had had
13 some training courses at the very beginning, when the war started, and
14 they had to pass a test, a theory and a test and a hands-on test.
15 Q. Do you know, Professor, if they used the phonological principles
16 that you earlier described for us this afternoon?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I don't want to belabour the
19 point, but I think we're far afield of this witness's expertise as a
20 forensic linguist or just as a linguist.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: It is related, isn't it? I mean, I quite agree
22 that it is not exactly bull's eye, but more or less it is related.
23 Yes, go ahead, go ahead.
24 MR. OSTOJIC:
25 Q. Can you answer the question, Professor, I think? Do you want me
1 to restate it for you?
2 A. Please repeat the question.
3 Q. Did you glean from the statements that you read of the intercept
4 operators whether or not they used phonological principles similar to
5 those which you've described earlier for us today?
6 A. They're not expected to use that, because they are not competent.
7 When you record something as a dialectologist, then we record accents and
8 all the nuances in the phonetics and the voices. But in their job, that
9 was irrelevant. Nobody asked them to do that. They were not expected to
10 do that. At least that's what I believe was the case.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... opinions here. We're turning
12 now, Professor, to the next section of your report, and if you'd like,
13 you're welcome to follow along, which is Roman numeral VII of your
14 report, where you talk about a general overview of Ljubisa Beara,
15 Ljubisa Beara's language usage, and the factors influencing it. And you
16 list three things that you mentioned earlier today, and I just want a
17 clarification. You talk about, in this report, and you referenced a
18 single-syllable reflexes of the long "jat," j-a-t. Then you go on to
19 talk about the shorter infinitive, and then you talk about the future
20 construction of the western type of lexical details. Those three
21 independent -- I'd like to have you -- and I know you were anxious
22 earlier to share with us specifically what the reflex of the long "jat"
23 is, but now I think it might be a good time since we're going to try to
24 go into the intercepts shortly. What is that "jat" j-a-t, as you
25 reference it in the science of linguistics and the study of dialectology?
1 A. "Jat" is the ancient Slavic vowel which was inherited by the old
2 Croats and Serbs in the old Serbo-Croat. It was still a vowel, "jat."
3 Later on, it received different reflexes. The destiny of this cluster
4 "jat" has arrived to distinguish between the Serbian, Croat and Bosniak
5 linguistic areas. There are three basic linguistic reflexes. The long
6 "jat" or the short "jat." The long "jat" in Ekavian reflects as vowel
7 "E", as in the word "dete," d-e-t-e. In Ikavian it is "dite," d-i-t-e,
8 and in Ijekavian it is "dijete," d-i-j-e-t-e. The short "jat" is
9 reflected in Ekavian as a short "E", as in "pesma," p-e-s-m-a. In
10 Ikavian "pisma," p-i-s-m-a and in Ijekavian as "pjesma," p-j-e-s-m-a.
11 These would be the main reflexes. There are Stokavians who use the
12 three, Ijekavian, Ikavian, and Ekavian dialects. There are also
13 Cakavians who use the three dialects or language variants.
14 And let me not belabour the point. There are also transitional
15 speeches, the so-called Ekavian, Ijekavian, Ikavian, Ekavian, but these
16 would be the fundamental differences or reflexes. The biggest problem is
17 the reflex of the long "jat," which reflects into I-J-E, as in "dijete,"
18 "blijeda," "bijela." The rule calls for two syllables, but there are
19 also speakers who use just one syllable, like in the western Stokavian
20 dialect. For example, in the Croatian, the literal variant differs from
21 the speech variant. For example, that's how our Mr. Beara speaks when he
22 uses the literary language. At least that's how he spoke in April.
23 I believe that this would be enough about the reflexes of "jat."
24 Q. I agree, I agree with that. And if you could help me with the
25 other two sections that we talked about, and that would be the shorter
1 infinitive, which I think you described a little bit, and then the future
2 construction of the western type and the lexical details therefore.
4 A. Yes. The infinitive, such as to work, to see, to watch, and so
5 on and so forth, in eastern areas of the former common Serbian or
6 Croatian language, would commonly consist of longer "I" sounds, as in
7 "raditi peci," and as you move further towards the western part of the
8 linguistic area, you will encounter the shorter variant more and more
9 often, such as in "radit pec" without the "I" at the end.
10 And when we talk about the future tense, there are two basic
11 models. In the eastern part of the area, which also implies the current,
12 literally, Serbian language of the Ekavian variant, i.e., in Serbia
13 most common construction would be "ja cu da radim," "ja cu da dodjen"
14 [phoen]. This construction prevails over the construction with the
15 future tense proper, "ja cu raditi" or "radit cu." And moving towards
16 the west, what dominates the linguistic area is the form "ja cu radit,"
17 where the infinitive is shorter, or "radit cu," again with the shorter
18 infinitive. The construction with the word "da," D-A, is something that
19 you will never hear in the western-most parts of this linguistic area.
20 Q. Thank you, and I -- if you need to go on, I never want to
21 interrupt, truly, but I think we have the essence of it. And if
22 necessary, you just let me know and I'm sure we'll allow you to continue
24 What I'd like to do is to during this -- in this section, Roman
25 numeral VII in your report, you talk about a linguistic cocktail, if you
1 will, and you use the term "recoding" and I know that you describe
2 Mr. Beara's language usage within this section, and I just want to have a
3 better understanding of what you mean by "linguistic cocktail," and then
4 ultimately the recoding, and then the opinion that you have towards the
5 end of that section, Roman numeral VII, which is near Roman numeral VIII,
6 on that last paragraph, and just tell us in essence what is this
7 linguistic cocktail that you referenced?
8 A. As I approached the task at hand, I could observe that in a
9 majority of the transcripts of the allegedly intercepted conversations,
10 what dominates is a correct literary language, which is not marked by any
11 variant features, and one cannot say that it would be marked according to
12 the either eastern or western variant rules. There are no texts for
13 which you could say this is pure Ekavian or this is the eastern variant
14 of the literary language, and the other, in turn, is a pure western
16 Furthermore, I noticed that there are no differences, in terms of
17 dialect, that would point to the region where Mr. Beara was born.
18 Starting from the assumption that transcripts are attributed to his name,
19 I was looking for some characteristics that would point to that, that
20 would lead to such an identification. I was faced with rather scarce
21 material, and let me just note at this point that I entered in the
22 computer, in "Conscripta Continua" [phoen], all the words attributed to
23 Mr. Beara from all the 18 transcripts, and all the 18 of them have been
24 reduced to not more than two and a half pages of computer text, of which
25 more than a half contain absolutely irrelevant words, insignificant
1 words, like "yes," "hello," "okay," "I understand," "I will," "I won't,"
2 things like that. And then I sought the and found the starting point for
3 my analysis in the three features or characteristics of the speech, which
4 were "jat," the infinitive and the future tense. I wanted to see what
5 prevails in these three characteristic forms.
6 And as I've already pointed out, that Beara uses words "blijeda"
7 and "ubljedila," which are part of the Croatian literary conversational
8 utterance that you will hear in Split
9 the literary language. This would not be part of the Serbian dialect of
10 the western parts of the country.
11 Q. And, Professor, help us with this, although we didn't give you
12 previously any audio recordings because we were under the mistaken
13 impression that none existed, and then recently we were provided with
14 some audio recordings. And, specifically, what I'd like to direct your
15 attention to is an interview that Mr. Beara was at at the UNDU while he
16 was being questioned by an investigator from the OTP.
17 And just so the record is clear -- the question is a little long
18 because I would like the Court and all of us to be able to follow. This
19 is an interview that occurred shortly after Mr. Beara's arrival here at
20 the Hague
21 produced to us for the first time on the 16th of July, 2008.
22 I know that's not relevant for you, but we didn't have that audio
23 recording or transcript prior to July of this year, although the
24 interview was approximately four years ago. Were you able to, over the
25 weekend, with me and others on our team, listen to this audio transcript
1 or audio recording?
2 You don't have to have it before you. We'll go over it a little
3 later. I just want to have it as a foundation. Were you able to listen
4 to it on Saturday or Sunday with us?
5 A. Yes, I listened to that.
6 Q. What we're going to do now, Professor, is look at the methodology
7 that you utilised in analysing the intercepts, those 18 that you were
8 provided. And we'll come back to the audio recording that we just
10 So if you turn to section Roman numeral VIII of your report, so
11 we can all follow along and if you need it, you're welcome to that. You
12 identify specifically seven methodological approaches and issues that you
13 wanted to address in performing the analysis and in reaching the opinions
14 that you have in this case, and if you could just highlight them for us,
15 because I do have a question on a couple of them. So what was your
16 methodological approach?
17 A. My methodological approach was based on the assumption that there
18 had to be some traces of the dialect or the mist in which Mr. Beara had
19 grown up, which would be Sarajevo
20 Q. I'm sorry, Professor. We didn't hear after you said "dragova"
21 [phoen]. The word wasn't translated for us. You said that there are
22 some traces of the dialect and the "mist," and then we didn't get the
23 second part. If you could just help us with that, and then you can
25 A. I expected to find traces of the dialect of Beara's youth, which
1 I did not find because they were simply not there, apparently, or at
2 least not in that very limited body of material. There were some
3 differential traces, but there was no possibility to discern the colour
4 of the vowels or accent. I could not check that because there was no
5 opportunity for me to do that, because there was no recording that would
6 show that.
7 Furthermore, I also wanted to see whether, in these transcripts,
8 Mr. Beara introduced himself personally by the first or last name, or
9 whether any of his collocutors identified him. Also, I put transcripts
10 in the context of the variants of the common Serbian and Croatian
11 language, which today are two different literary languages.
12 It has turned out, as you have seen, that when a literary
13 language is in question and when the differential specifics turn up, in
14 his today's speech this is mostly the western variant or today's literary
15 Croatian language.
16 Obviously, I based my conclusions, taking into account a degree
17 of relevance, on the context and the volume of the text. And I also
18 collated the manuscripts and the versions that were subsequently typed
19 up, and I also encountered some discrepancies there. For example, the
20 operator would first record in his hand and then type something by
21 computer, and this is important not in the cases where we have
22 manuscripts, because it is the manuscript that prevails, and the computer
23 typing is irrelevant.
24 Let me repeat, where there is no manuscript or a handwritten
25 version written by the operator, but only a printed version, and to make
1 matters even worse, we don't have manuscripts in those cases where we
2 have most of the texts, so that my conclusions would have been more
3 firmly grounded if there were manuscripts for every conversation and if
4 it were identical to the version that I have been provided with.
5 Q. Okay. And thank you for that, and we're looking still at the
6 methodological approach that you utilised, and we said that you
7 highlighted seven of them here in your report on Roman numeral VIII, and
8 then you go on to say that part of your task was indeed to identify the
9 likelihood or the reasonableness of whether or not any of those purported
10 captured, intercepted conversations may be attributed to Mr. Beara;
11 correct? And if you could look at the last paragraph immediately before
12 section 11, you'll find that.
13 A. Which one, which one?
14 Q. It's at the end of the section Roman numeral VIII, which had the
15 seven methodological factors that you utilised in giving us your
16 approach, and I said that it followed, and it's that paragraph there,
17 that last paragraph, that I was describing or trying to assist us in
18 trying to define specifically what you were tasked to do.
19 And just so the record's clear, the next section obviously should
20 be Roman numeral IX which follows Roman numeral VIII, but as printed,
21 it's identified as Roman numeral XI, so for our purposes, let's just go
22 with the Roman numeral VIII again where you identify the methodological
23 factors that you utilised in your approach, and again my question for
24 you, Professor, is that your task was to identify based on this approach
25 and the materials that you were provided to determine whether or not the
1 purported intercept conversations can be attributed to Mr. Beara based on
2 the linguistics and dialectal information that's provided to you; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Professor, in page 14 of your report, and I think it goes on to
6 page 15. Do you have it?
7 A. I can't see it. I don't know which version you have. What is
8 the heading of that so-called 11th chapter? What is the heading?
9 Q. Let's forget about the 11th chapter and let's deal with the 8th
10 chapter, because that's where it's contained. Roman numeral VIII, the
11 caption is: "Analytical Basis for Critical Study of the Manuscripts said
12 to be Connected to Ljubisa Beara," so it's Roman numeral VIII, and I
13 direct your attention, if I may --
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. -- to the last paragraph of that Roman numeral VIII.
16 A. In my version, the chapter VIII is a critical analysis of the
17 text dated from the 13th of July to the 2nd of August, 1995. This is in
18 my version the 8th chapter --
19 Q. Immediately above that, sir, you have a paragraph and I think
20 it's there I won't go on. Just immediately above that Roman numeral that
21 you've identified, does it talk about the likelihood -- that your task
22 being the likelihood to analyse the text to determine whether or not it
23 may be attributed to Mr. Beara; is that what you were asked to do?
24 A. Yes, yes, yes.
25 Q. Okay, thank you.
1 A. Excellent, yes.
2 Q. And we'll go through each of the intercepts, maybe not in the
3 order that you have it, but I'd like to go -- so I'd like you to
4 concentrate and follow with me. Generally speaking, were you able to
5 formulate an opinion as to whether or not, based upon your review of the
6 materials, knowing the brief background of Mr. Beara, both from his
7 childhood, his military education and military experience, as well from
8 conducting a seven- to eight-hour visit with him, were you able to
9 conclude whether or not any of the intercepts can or may be attributed to
10 Mr. Beara?
11 A. I think I've already said that the language of those 18
12 transcripts, taken as a whole, in principle, the language -- today's
13 language that Mr. Beara spoke on the 7th and 8th of April, are two
14 incompatible, very different categories or matters. So if we were to
15 depart from his conversational Cakavian-Ikavian Split speech type, which
16 he used when speaking to us those two days, then the content of those
17 transcripts must be rejected a priori, at first hand. In those, I found
18 only one typical word from the Cakavian dialect, which would be
19 differentiating, which never was repeated, but I took as my departure
20 point the reality as well that Mr. Beara, on the 7th and 8th spoke in
21 literary language, there were parts or whole sentences spoken in literary
22 language, and on these occasions the variant used was that of the
23 Croatian literary language, a Zagreb
24 language, and then I allowed for the possibility that the transcripts, in
25 which there are several or multiple features -- characters of details of
1 that variant, of that type of language, these may be connected to
2 Mr. Beara.
3 With respect to one transcript, I decidedly, although with not a
4 high degree of reliability and certainty, I characterized it that it may
5 be accepted that it may be attributed to Beara, and this is the one on
6 the 1st of August.
7 Q. Thank you, and we'll get to that, actually, now.
8 Before we do that, when we talk about your methodological
9 approach, you also did this analysis, and I just want to direct your
10 attention, as well as my learned friends' and the Court, to table -- or
11 annex 1 of your report, which is a table that you created of those 18
12 intercepts, and you have basically four questions that you've identified
13 there, whether -- as you identified in your methodology, whether the
14 person compromised himself or revealed himself or was compromised by the
15 other speaker, and then you go on and have three other categories: Is
16 the -- or does the dialect clearly identify the speaker's origin, is the
17 dialect tied to the person's region, and, finally, is the speaker's
18 dialect close to Ljubisa Beara's current manner of speech. Do you have
19 that table annex 1 in front of you of your report, sir?
20 A. I do have it.
21 Q. So that everyone's following along -- thank you. So that
22 everyone's following along, it is 2D551. And in that report, sir, you
23 identified conversations that you reviewed with these four questions, now
24 just -- although you've provided us with a brief explanation of what the
25 symbols, the hyphen, the zero and the positive sign indicate, can you
1 tell us exactly, so that we understand it, what do you mean when you use
2 the symbol "O" or zero?
3 A. This means no data, no data.
4 Q. Yes. And then the negative sign or the minus sign, if you will?
5 A. A negative sign denotes that he did not introduce himself. When
6 we say zero, this means that it doesn't refer to Beara, some other people
7 are referred to.
8 Q. Thank you. And the positive or the plus sign or symbol that you
9 utilised, what does it indicate?
10 A. This is confirmation. This is a response in the affirmative,
11 whether he was revealed or -- himself or by somebody else.
12 Q. Thank you, Professor, but really those symbols that you use, the
13 negative, the positive, as well as the zero symbols, you use that for
14 four independent questions that you provide in your table, so it isn't
15 just whether Mr. Beara compromised or revealed his identity, or whether
16 another person purportedly speaking with him compromised his identity.
17 You used those symbols for all four categories, including the fourth
18 category which is whether, essentially, the speaker's dialect was close
19 or consistent with Ljubisa Beara's current speech pattern or manner of
20 speech; correct?
21 A. I use those symbols on the basis of the general image, the
22 general impression. When I took into account all the elements that were
23 available to me, when they were tangible to me to be analysed. This is a
25 Q. Thank you. That's all I'm trying as well as to try to synthesize
1 as briefly as possible.
2 And now you were just mentioning to us that with respect to the
3 August 1st, 1995
4 look at this table and we see within those four categories that you
5 actually have a positive or plus sign, and the time of this intercept is
6 exactly --
7 A. Early morning, yes. That's 10.02 in the morning.
8 Q. Take a look at your table. Do you have your table, by -- and
9 look on the left column, where it says "1 August, 10002." Do you see
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if we draw across this column and we see that you have four
13 positive symbols, and you've answered "positive" or "yes" to the four
14 questions that you identify in the top section of this table, which is
15 essentially your brief overview and analysis of the results of the
16 intercepts that you reviewed; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, let's turn to the 1st of August, 1002 intercept analysis
19 that you conducted, and you'll find that in your next section of your
20 report, and why don't we start there.
21 A. I've found it, yes.
22 Q. You're way quicker than I am, and I appreciate that.
23 Now, within this intercept, can you identify for us -- and so
24 that the Court will have it, we ask that it be brought up in e-court; and
25 it's specifically P1378B for the B/C/S and P1378A for the English
2 And, sir, you have that, and you should hopefully have that in
3 front of you as well. I know you have the analysis in front of you. I
4 don't know if you need the actual transcript that was provided in
5 connection with this purported intercept. Can you share with us what
6 your conclusion is in connection with this August 1st, 1995 intercept at
7 1002 hundred hours?
8 A. As per the allegations of the operator, Mr. Beara introduced
9 himself: "Hello, good day, Ljubisa Beara speaking." This was done by
10 his collocutor. He mentioned his name. The linguistic corpus or the
11 body of the language is not very rich, but it does not collide or it's
12 not very opposite in terms of the identification stated there.
13 Q. Just so that we could follow along, Professor Remetic, and I
14 promise I'm not interrupting you to shorten your testimony, and if we
15 could just turn to the second page of the English version where I think
16 the professor is focusing on Mr. Beara identifying himself, just so we
17 could all follow along, if the Court doesn't mind.
18 Go ahead, please, Professor.
19 A. Yes. This text, the same as others, does not contain variants
20 where literary language would be marked by a variant. There are details,
21 features, characteristics of the western variant or the Croatian literary
22 language, but there are also those which resemble the eastern variant. I
23 opted to give precedence to those which carry more weight, and therefore
24 I attributed more importance to the examples of the western variant. For
25 me, "izvjestio" with an I-G-E, "to report" --
1 Q. Where are you finding that in the transcript?
2 A. In the transcript? In the manuscript.
3 Q. Go ahead, proceed, please.
4 A. So "izvjestio," "report," then the truncated form of the
5 infinitive, like in "pozvat," "to call," or "dogovorit," "to arrange,"
6 but also "naci," "to find," there is an elongated -- a full version of
7 the infinitive. In the transcripts, what is often found is the noun
8 "burazer" or "brother," which is not limited in terms of linguistic
9 variance but is more frequent in the west than it is in the east. And
10 here what is used is the shorter version, "buraz," which is more often
11 found in the west.
12 Q. And we're trying to follow along, and I know this is like a
13 two-part conversation, and I think if we look, it's the fourth line of
14 the conversation that introduces Mr. Beara, correct, where you're
15 speaking now of the "buraz," which is the short form of "burazer"; am I
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. And now please continue with your analysis of this intercept.
19 A. Here, there are infinitives following the western variant, such
20 as "Hoces li biti u firmi," which means "will you be at the company," and
21 next to a construction which is typical of the eastern variant, "ja cu da
22 dodjem," the eastern variant of the future tense formation.
23 Let me explain my conclusions. I allowed for the possibility,
24 and my conscience is telling me to allow for this possibility, that this
25 could be Beara speaking, that this could be Beara's speech type, because
1 even today he would say "izvjestio" with an I-G-E, or also say
2 "izvjestija," as in the Ikavian. Then he would say "pozvat" [phoen], and
3 I heard him speak, "buraz" as well.
4 Q. And that's why, Professor, you identified in your table the four
5 questions as all being positive; correct?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. Fair enough. Just in the interests of time, and I know that
8 you've spent an inordinate amount of time analysing these intercepts, and
9 we all are grateful for that, but we do have to move on a little bit. If
10 there's something however that you feel is necessary to add, I will allow
11 you and I'm sure the court will insist that you provide us with that
12 further analysis or discussion.
13 What I want to do is to look at the next intercept which was also
14 dated the 1st of August, and we have two times recorded in your table of
15 2245 and 2308, and that is the -- I'm sorry, I may have misspoken. The
16 next one we want is 65 ter P1395, which is an intercept that is -- no,
17 let's go with the one -- I'm sorry again, I apologise. I lost my spot,
18 and I apologise to the Court.
19 We need Exhibit P1380, please, and that is the intercept from the
20 1st of August, 1995, at 2245. Again, I think the witness is just asking
21 for clarification. I'll just restate it, I think, for his benefit.
22 Professor, if you look at your table --
23 A. Yes, I've got it. Everything's in order.
24 Q. Great. And then we'll get that up on the screen. You've also
25 analysed and reviewed this intercept of 2245. You include within it
1 another section which is identified as -- by the time 2308. Can you tell
2 me, why is that?
3 Maybe I can help, because I don't think it's a big secret. That
4 intercept actually is contained in two pages, which is P1380B, and the
5 second page of that intercept has another intercept below it which
6 designates the time as 2308. The beginning of this P1380B has the time
7 as you've identified it as 2245. So it's really two pages, and I think
8 that's -- or tell us why you included both those times there. And you
9 treated it as one, I believe.
10 A. Yes, I treated those as a single conversation. It continues, as
11 you can see. There is quite a lengthy conversation, the first one, and
12 then there is a very short intervening time, and there were other
13 circumstances which connect them. This is a long text, two relatively
14 long texts for which there are no manuscripts. There is nothing written
15 in handwriting by the operator. I did not receive it, anyway, or at any
17 Q. That's true also for the prior intercept, the 1st of August at
18 1002 hundred hours, is it not?
19 A. At 10.00, I believe this holds for that as well. There's no
20 manuscript for that either.
21 Q. And just so we're clear --
22 A. The 1st of August is without manuscripts.
23 Q. When you say "manuscript," you're saying there's no handwritten
24 capturing of the conversation --
25 A. "Manuscript" is something written in longhand, the operator's
1 handwritten version, or whoever wrote those things down.
2 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, focusing back on this
3 second intercept that we're looking at of the 1st of August at 2245 and
4 2308, tell us what your analysis found in connection with this intercept.
5 A. You see, the language of these conversations is incompatible with
6 the language of the morning conversation from 1002.
7 Q. I don't know if I understand you, but let me try to say this:
8 Are you saying that the conversations are incompatible because it cannot
9 be the same person? If we assume that the conversation at 1002 is
10 Mr. Beara, it certainly cannot be Mr. Beara at 2245 and 2308? Is that
11 what you --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I object, and that is completely leading. I
14 think there's a much more reasonable way to ask.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It couldn't be more leading than that actually,
16 Mr. Ostojic.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.
18 Q. What do you mean when you say "incompatible," sir?
19 A. That means something which cannot be connected, something
20 completely different, something opposite. In the texts, allegedly
21 recorded conversations in the evening, we have domination of Ekavian
22 variant. We have Ekavian speech, like "mesto," "odseku," "covek;" only
23 two forms in the Ijekavian, like "razumijem" and "dvije." Mr. Beara
24 speaks only "razumim," and this is the word he used in the conversation
25 with the Prosecutor in October, and this is what we are going to see
1 further on.
2 Furthermore, I tried to explain away these Ekavian occurrences by
3 possible adaptations to the manner of -- the manner of speech of the
4 collocutor. However, his collocutor uses more Ijekavian words than
6 Furthermore, we have a truncated infinitive together with Ekavian
7 forms, which is illogical.
8 Q. And which we didn't see in the prior intercept, or have we seen
9 it in the prior intercept of 1002 in the morning?
10 A. I beg your pardon?
11 Q. Did we find that in the prior intercept or not?
12 A. There was not so much Ekavian in there. Please, this is Ekavian.
13 Here, there are 15 Ekavian words that are written down, printed; not in
14 the manuscript, though, mind you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, I think we need 25 minutes to be able
16 to digest all this.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Twenty-five minutes' break.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 6.23 p.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Remetic, if I may ask you, are you okay to proceed? I know
24 it's been long and you've done a lot of talking and testifying here
25 today. Are you physically okay and can we proceed for another 40 or so
2 A. The break was long enough. As far as I am concerned, we can go
3 on until midnight
4 Q. Great, thank you. I don't think it will be necessary, however.
5 Sir, we were discussing the 2nd of August intercept at
6 specifically the 2245 and 2308 hundred hours, and looking at your table,
7 I note that you have, obviously, minus or negative signs on the four
8 columns which you used to analyse the transcripts, and I recognise also
9 you told us that for this intercept, among others, such as the 1st of
10 August at 1002, there was no manuscript. With respect to this specific
11 intercept that we're looking at, the 1st of August, 2245 and 2308, were
12 you able to reach a conclusion or an opinion, based upon a reasonable
13 degree of certainty, as to whether or not these intercepts may be
14 attributed to Mr. Beara?
15 A. According to my experience in my profession, and the familiarity
16 with the circumstances in the Serbian and Croatian linguistic area, one
17 person cannot utter, within one day or within 13 or so hours, the
18 speeches that differ to such an extent.
19 Q. Okay. And I know --
20 A. The language on the 1st of August, in these three -- or, rather,
21 two conversations, is a mixture which cannot be put together in any
22 natural way. The afternoon conversation cannot be, in my opinion, linked
23 with the name of Ljubisa Beara.
24 Q. Okay. And let me focus, if I may, on the use of the first column
25 that you had, which says whether there was a compromise of the identity
1 by either the speaker or the person with whom he was speaking to, and you
2 have a negative sign in that section.
3 If we look at the body of the text, which is again, just for the
4 record, P1380B, the B/C/S version, and the English version would be
5 P1380A, we note that in the body of the text there, I think according to
6 your table, there is no reference to anyone identifying or compromising
7 the identity of an individual such as Mr. Beara. However, in the
8 beginning part of that text, in the introduction part, which doesn't
9 capture the conversation, someone identifies him as Mr. Beara. Do you
10 know how that is?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Also speculation, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I think it's a reasonable question, given the
15 evidence that's been presented. It's certainly factual specifically as
16 to what I said, and if he can deduct -- and it really goes more to his
17 table, why he didn't put a plus or a zero as opposed to a negative there.
18 So I'm really leading him or trying to obtain --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but is the professor the ideal person to
20 answer that question?
21 MR. OSTOJIC: Not the ideal person, obviously. If you'd like,
22 I can move on to --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: How can he explain what -- whoever jotted that down
24 that in mind.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move on.
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. Professor, in looking at this, did you find more instances where,
4 in the body of the text of an intercept, references were made to the name
5 "Ljubo" or the word "Ljubo," or a derivative of that word, and did you
6 find as to whether or not the Prosecution has taken a position that it's
7 an unknown individual? In other intercepts that you may have reviewed,
8 did you see that anywhere?
9 A. I'm not sure that I understand your question. Are we talking
10 about this person Stevo here who uses the word "Ljubo," and nobody
11 introduces themselves as Ljubo Beara? That's what you can find in my
12 table, nobody introduces themselves as Ljubo Beara. And "Ljubo" can
13 refer to a host of names, a host of people, if you just used a "Ljubo."
14 Q. Okay. We'll get to that a little later, hopefully. Let's look
15 at the next intercept which is P1395, and we have the intercept of the
16 2nd of August at 1300 hours. And I'd like to just highlight a couple of
17 things in this intercept, and if I'm allowed, it would be P1305D, as in
18 "dog" for the record, and then it would be P1395C in the English version,
19 and then D would have been the manuscript handwritten version and P1395D
20 is the typed manuscript. And then we have another one related to that,
21 which was I think the translation of the manuscript, which is P1395F, as
22 in "Frank," just so the Court has the full complete set of this
24 So, sir, I'm directing your attention to the 2nd of August 19995
25 at 1300 hours, which is a collection of an intercept, and did you have an
1 opportunity to review this intercept as well? I think it's the very next
2 one in your table, so second from the bottom.
3 A. If we are talking about the conversation which took place on the
4 2nd of August at 1300 hours, this conversation was practically irrelevant
5 for my job, because there's no text, there are no words in there which
6 may be linked with the name of Mr. Beara.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Just one more thing, please, please. But the text is important
9 for another reason or another fact. The person who typed it on the
10 computer, the typist, obviously did not make a distinction between the
11 reflexes found in the Jekavian and Ijekavian of the "jat" cluster. When
12 he copied the text from the manuscript, which in my view was correct, he
13 copied the features "izvjestaj" [phoen] or "report," "covjeca" [phoen] or
14 "man," and typed them in a way that nobody, as far as I know, would
15 actually use them in speech. His copy reads "izvjestaj" and "cavijece"
17 Q. Professor, let me catch up with you, and the rest of us. And
18 I think the record noted on page 65 that it was P1905 that we were
19 calling up, but it's actually P1395 and the collection therefrom. And
20 I'd like if we could have on the screen the "D", which is the written
21 manuscript, again P1395D, and then immediately thereafter we're going to
22 go to the typed script, which is P1395B.
23 And just show us where that word appears, Professor, if you don't
24 mind, at this August 2nd, 1995
25 And if possible, Mr. President, would the usher be able to
1 provide him with a pen, and then maybe he can highlight it or underline
2 it for us, or circle it.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, Professor, they have a special pen.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
6 Shall I put circles around things or shall I underline them?
7 What do you want me to do? "Izvjestija" [phoen] here --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
9 MR. OSTOJIC:
10 Q. Professor, I think what we need on the left-hand side of the
11 screen so you can see it --
12 A. In the manuscript, it is transcribed correctly. The way the word
13 is spelled in the manuscript is good. I'm just looking now for the word
14 "covjeca" or "man."
15 Q. Hold on, please, Professor. Professor, that is on the next page,
16 but I will turn to the next page when I am done looking at this. Right
17 now, I would like us to have the typed B/C/S version of this handwritten
18 manuscript, which I have with the ERN number 0108-5009, which again my
19 understanding is P1395B, as in "boy," so that we could then circle it
20 also in the typed version and then get a better appreciation for that
21 which is what you're trying to convey to us here. Thank you for your
23 A. Where is the typed version, please?
24 Q. They're trying to get it for us now.
25 We can possibly, because it's just one word, have him just
1 recircle it, if we have both up, whichever the Court's pleasure is. I
2 had noticed that the left side was the English version, but we need the
3 typewritten B/C/S and then the handwritten B/C/S.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I think we need to save it in any case.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: They'll bring it up, Professor, in a couple of
6 seconds. Just be patient.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll bear with you as long as it
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Now, if we can just scroll it down --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is, I found it.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: If we can scroll down a little, and at the bottom
12 of that -- there we are.
13 Q. And, sir, can you also circle the word which is the typed version
14 of the same word that you circled in the handwritten version, please?
15 A. [Marks]. I have.
16 Q. So that we can better have an appreciation --
17 A. And "covijece" [phoen] is a bit further down.
18 Q. It's actually on the next page of both the manuscript and the
19 typed text, but let's stay with this for a second.
20 You noted that this word from the manuscript handwritten text was
21 typed differently than that which it appeared on the typewritten text; is
22 that what you're trying to share with us?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is that why --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Please go ahead.
2 A. Of course, yes, please. In the manuscript, in the handwritten
3 version, everything is okay, both "covijece" and "izvjestija." In the
4 typed version, we find a hyper Ijekavian version. It has been copied
5 erroneously, and in my view this is a serious mistake because it throws a
6 different light on the text where there is no manuscript, where
7 manuscripts are missing, where there's only a typed version, thus
8 unabling [as interpreted] us to check the credibility --
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. -- of the both texts.
11 Q. And now, with the Court's permission, if we could turn to the
12 second page of both documents, and again if -- first we should probably
13 save the circled typed version, with the Court's permission.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's been suggested to us that for practical
15 reasons, your witness should also circle the relative word in the --
16 MR. OSTOJIC: I agree, yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could direct him to do that, please.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Professor, if you could once again circle the word that we're
21 discussing here on the handwritten manuscript which then corresponds or
22 correlates with the typewritten one on the left of the screen. So can
23 you do that for us, please, again? In the handwritten text, if you could
24 circle the word we were just discussing.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm sorry to
2 interrupt. I noticed in the transcript that the witness had indicated
3 that the difference between the transcription and the handwriting changes
4 the meaning, and it was unclear to me whether he meant to refer to the
5 meaning of the word or the meaning of the word in terms of its ability
6 to -- linguistically, in order to identify a person, and I wonder if my
7 good friend could clarify that, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. --
9 MR. OSTOJIC: As soon as we get there, I will most certainly do
11 Q. Professor, can you circle the word again, "izvjestaj" in the
12 handwritten portion? Can you take the pen and circle again in the
13 handwritten text where that word appears?
14 A. [Marks].
15 Q. Excellent. Now, sir, when you look at these two words, and
16 I think in the record it may have reflected, as my learned friend said,
17 that it changes or alters the meaning of the word, can you just again
18 describe for us what effect, in your opinion, professionally speaking,
19 does the difference in adding an "I" on the typed text, versus the
20 handwritten text, which doesn't have an "I", does it change the meaning
21 of the word or does it to you, as a linguistics expert and professor of
22 dialectology, does it indicate for you any specific characteristics?
23 A. The focus here is on the issue of the reliability or the lack
24 thereof of these people who actually typed these texts. These two forms
25 indicate that they were not reliable, that they were not enclitic enough,
1 and this shows that there may be mistakes in the other texts as well, but
2 these cannot be collated against manuscripts. When it comes to the
3 semantics, the words "lepo" and "lijepo" do not differ in semantic terms,
4 they mean the same, but they are used in different areas, in different
6 Q. From that, you can detect which region or area someone is from,
7 correct, or at least reasonably conclude that?
8 A. On the basis of the "jat"s reflexes, reflections, you can guess
9 where a person comes from, but in this case they wrote down the form of
10 the word that nobody speaks anywhere, the "izvjestaj" and "covijece."
11 We haven't registered such forms, which testifies to the degree of the
12 reliability of the typists.
13 Q. Thank you. And just so we have a complete record with respect to
14 this intercept, if we can please save this, and we'll identify it
15 accordingly tonight and tomorrow, and then I would ask that we go to the
16 second page of both documents, with the Court's permission, if we can
17 save this.
18 Now, Professor, in front of you, you should have the second page
19 of this intercept of the 2nd of August at 1300 hours, and can you go
20 through the same exercise, with the assistance of the usher, and circle
21 the word which you were focusing on and that which you referred to in
22 your report where there was a change from what was written, in your view,
23 linguistically and dialectically having an impact? And I think the word
24 is "covijece," as you earlier referenced, and now we can find it and if
25 you could be kind enough to circle it both on the handwritten and the
1 typed texts.
2 You're going to have to use a special --
3 A. The word "covijece" in the manuscript, here it is, "covijece" or
4 "man" [marks]. This text is not here.
5 Q. If you look at the fourth line --
6 A. Here it is, here it is, here it is. Okay. [Marks].
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you. And now if we can also save this,
8 Mr. President.
9 Q. And, again, with respect to this word, you also find that this --
10 what's the significance of the difference in the handwritten versus the
11 typed text? How is that significant to you in your analysis and the
12 opinions that you're providing?
13 A. In my opinion, those mistakes undermine the authority, they
14 compromise the authority of the typists, so we must be cautious when we
15 read the manuscripts or texts which do not exist in the longhand version.
16 I'm not sure to which degree these texts are reliable. This is a corpus
18 Q. Thank you, Professor, and we only have ten or so minutes left,
19 and I want to ask you -- there's another intercept there, and we'll go
20 through that exercise hopefully today or tomorrow.
21 What I want to know now, looking at your table, I note there are
22 certain entries with the time periods of the intercepts. Are you able to
23 conclude as to looking at your positive signs, from the 16th of July,
24 namely at 1111 hours, all the way through to the 1st of August at 1002,
25 can you tell us as to whether or not there were any intercepts that were
1 captured that purport to be attributed to Mr. Beara during the time
2 period, again, from the 16th of July through the 1st of August at 1002
3 hundred hours?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 The question is vague as to what intercepts my colleague is
7 talking about, whether these are intercepts he reviewed, or intercepts he
8 was provided with, or intercepts in general.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, obviously the intercepts that he reviewed.
11 If there are other intercepts, we'd be more than happy to have them, but
12 we don't have any others in our possession in connection with anything
13 purportedly attributing to Mr. Beara for that time period.
14 Q. Sir, can you help us with that? Did you find, of the intercepts
15 that you reviewed, any intercepts that purport or can be attributed to
16 Mr. Beara from the time period of the 16th of July through the 1st of
17 August? And I just note, if we look at your table, you obviously have a
18 positive sign on the 16th of July and you have a positive sign on the 1st
19 of August, so my question is: For that two or so-week period, did you
20 find any evidence of any such intercepts that would be attributed to
21 Mr. Beara?
22 A. No, no, I haven't found any.
23 Q. Within that time period, though, we see two other intercepts;
24 specifically, the 23rd of July, 1995, at 0805 hours, and I think it's
25 65 ter 1310. Now, in that intercept, although it was given to you as a
1 collection of references or possibly intercepts that bear the name of
2 Beara or the name Ljubo, I'd like to focus, in the brief time that we
3 have, specifically on this intercept the 23rd of July, 0805 hours, and
4 again the 65 ter number is 1310. And just see we have a clean --
5 A. 20 --
6 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
7 A. Which date, please?
8 Q. 23. And just so the record is clear, Mr. President, we're going
9 to call up P1310B, as in "boy," which is the B/C/S version, and I think
10 also P1310C, which I believe may be the typed version, and the English
11 version is P1310A. So we would only need the "B" and the "A" version of
12 the intercept on the screen for these limited questions.
13 You let me know, Professor, when you've found it.
14 A. I've found it.
15 Q. Now, with respect to this intercepts, we have a few minutes left,
16 with respect to this intercept, you have identified in your report
17 circles or the zero symbol in the four sections in the questions that you
18 raised. Now, did we -- and it says in your report, but you reviewed also
19 the Prosecution's position, just again so that they have it, from the 1st
20 of May, 2007, as to who the Ljubo in this intercept is, but I'm asking
21 you: Were you advised as to who the Ljubo was in the intercept that
22 purports to be the 23rd of July, 1995, at 0805 hours?
23 A. Please, much earlier I had prepared an analysis, and in my report
24 it is stated that it is unclear which Ljubo is being referred to. There
25 are no indications pointing to Mr. Ljubisa Beara.
1 Q. And I --
2 A. And, anyway, the Prosecution -- the Prosecution means -- think
3 that this refers to Major Ljubo Bojanovic, so this has nothing to do with
5 Q. The Court has that filing from the 1st of May, 2007, and if they
6 look plainly on page 73, they'll find the intercept and they'll find the
7 OTP's position that it's Ljubo Bojanovic, so I just want to clarify that,
8 because we're talking about the period from the 16th of July to August
10 Similarly, in the three minutes that we have left, let's take a
11 look at the next intercept which is dated the 25th of July, which is at
12 0709 hours, which for all of us following it would be P1328B, as in
13 "boy," and P1328A, as in "apple."
14 Can we go to that next intercept, Professor, of the 25th of July
15 at 0709 hours?
16 A. Here, too, it is unclear which Ljubo is being referred to. This
17 material is extremely meager. There are several soldierly, terse
18 questions and answers, greetings like "hello," "excellent," "okay,"
19 "well," "very well." Two times "gide" [phoen] occurs, which contrasts
20 today's Beara's manner of speech, and, anyway, the Prosecution,
21 concurring with me, thinks that it is not clear which Ljubo is being
22 referred to. Not even the Prosecutors think that.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's stop there for today. We will
24 proceed with your testimony tomorrow, Professor. Have a good rest, and
25 we'll reconvene tomorrow at 9.00.
1 Thank you.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of August, 2008,
4 at 9.00 a.m.