1 Tuesday, 16 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, everybody, and to you,
7 Madam Registrar. If you could call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. For the record, all the
11 accused are present. From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of
12 Ms. Tapuskovic, the absence of Mr. Lazarevic, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Krgovic,
13 and that's it.
14 Prosecution is a full team today, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer,
15 Mr. Vanderpuye. The witness is present in the courtroom. My idea was to
16 go through some preliminaries, but I think we can postpone that until
17 after she finishes her testimony, if my colleagues are in agreement.
18 So good afternoon, to you, Doctor.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So I hadn't the opportunity to welcome you when you
21 started your testimony, so I welcome you today. I understand we have
22 reached the redirect -- the redirect stage so I suggest that we proceed
23 immediately with that, Ms. Nikolic.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. Thank
1 WITNESS: VELA JOVICIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Re-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Jovicic.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers should not overlap.
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I will again repeat what the interpreters have just said, please
8 pause since we speak the same language. Pause between questions and
9 answers so that the transcript will truly reflect what we said.
10 After I reviewed the transcript of yesterday, I have but a few
11 additional questions for you today. Yesterday, my colleague
12 Mr. Prosecutor at page 27540, lines 9 to 11, read out a part of
13 Mr. Gavric's statement concerning some other patients. I will quote this
14 in English. [In English] "The nurse mentioned that she did not feel good
15 about the assignment since her brother had been killed during the war."
16 [Interpretation] Do you remember this part of the text?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. At your pediatrics ward during the war, did any of the nurses
19 mention that she felt uncomfortable treating Muslim children?
20 A. No, never.
21 Q. Dr. Jovicic, yesterday you were asked a number of questions
22 concerning the events at the pediatrics ward in June 1995 concerning a
23 boy who was admitted into the Zvornik hospital. I will put a
24 straightforward question. For my colleagues, the reference is page 7593,
25 lines 19 to 23, of the transcript in this case. My question is this,
1 after you took over your duty, as you said yesterday, on the 16th of
2 July, 1995, did you hear that a nurse at the pediatrics ward picked up a
3 chair, trying to hit Dr. Gotovac because in July 1995 she admitted a
4 Muslim boy to the ward?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Is this an incident that you would be informed about as one of
7 the duty physicians had it happened?
8 A. Most likely.
9 Q. Does this fall within the domain of professional and
10 interrelationship communication when taking over shifts?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer that question.
12 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, these questions were actually
14 asked and answered. They were posed on the direct examination of the
15 witness. I don't see a basis for leading this witness on redirect
16 examination of the exact same questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You will understand I will have to refer to my
18 colleagues on that because when she started her evidence yesterday I
19 wasn't here.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm being told by my colleagues that Mr. Vanderpuye
22 is essentially correct. However, since I haven't asked you to comment on
23 his objection, perhaps you may have some other reason why you have
24 repeated the question which has already been answered, if you could
25 explain that, Ms. Nikolic. Unless you prefer to move to your next
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I put this question
3 for the sole reason that my colleague during cross-examination raised the
4 issue of incidents and the way such incidents are treated and dealt with
5 at various levels in the Zvornik hospital. That is why I wanted to
6 clarify this point from the transcript. Of course, the question is not
7 identical to the one I put during examination-in-chief.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move on. Doctor, you can answer
9 the question.
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Dr. Jovicic, would you like me to repeat the question?
12 A. I didn't even realise there was a question that you put to me.
13 Q. Would this be an event that would fall within the domain of
14 professional and interpersonal communication when physicians take over
15 shifts between each other?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is that something that would be talked about in the hospital?
18 A. Certainly, since this would be from the professional domain.
19 Q. [Microphone not activated]
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I have one last question, or rather, I would like to hear your
23 opinion. During the entire war and post-war period, what was the
24 relationship with all of the physicians at the pediatrics wards with the
25 children of Muslim -- with the Muslim children who were treated?
1 A. I think I dealt with that in detail yesterday.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I object. It calls for a narrative and it's
4 completely irrelevant in respect of the specific issues that the witness
5 was addressed -- that I addressed with the witness on cross-examination.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Nikolic, do you wish to comment?
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my learned friend
8 during cross-examination raised the issue of an incident which had to do
9 with Dr. Gavric's statement. I would like the witness to explain what
10 was the treatment of Muslim patients like at their ward.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We acted humanely and in accordance
12 with all international regulations --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing to say -- --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Madam, you would have for sure
16 understood that there was a question or a dispute between the Prosecution
17 and the Defence whether you should answer this question at all. So
18 please wait until we decide whether it's a legitimate question or not
19 before you proceed any further. If necessary I will strike it off from
20 the record.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move on. But if this happens again, Doctor,
23 please wait until we decide whether you should give the answer or not.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone
25 to her right.
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes my
2 redirect. Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. There are no further questions for you,
4 madam, which means that you are free to go. You will receive assistance
5 from our staff. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for
6 having come over to give testimony. And on behalf of everyone, I wish
7 you is a safe journey back home.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, exhibits. Ms. Nikolic?
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our list was handed
11 over. I believe it includes only the statement of this witness that is
12 being tendered pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. Thank you. Any objections?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: There's no objection, Mr. President. I would
15 only ask that the documents, the statements, rather, be tendered under
16 seal because they contain sensitive information.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. Any objections from anyone else? No.
18 So the document will be admitted under seal as suggested.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have any documents?
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President, I have no documents.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That concludes the testimony of the
24 Now, let me revert to what I had planned for the beginning of the
25 sitting. There is a recent, as recent as yesterday actually, motion from
1 the Borovcanin Defence team called the Borovcanin Defence second motion
2 for admission of written evidence in lieu of oral testimony pursuant to
3 Rule 92 bis which is accompanied by an appendix, quite a bulky one. As a
4 starter, does the Prosecution take a position on this motion or do you
5 require more time?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that's not one I've looked at and
7 I have been talking to Mr. Lazarevic about some things and I don't recall
8 if that's one of them or not, so I think we would need a little more
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. There is, however, another motion in
11 which Borovcanin requested the admission of a statement by a certain
12 brigadier general, I won't mention his name in case he might wish to be
13 protected, again pursuant to Rule 92 bis. Without cross-examination, of
14 course, for 92 bis. And have you looked at this?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that is the one that I spoke to
16 Mr. Lazarevic about and I think we were very close to reaching some kind
17 of an agreement on it but I'll continue that discussion.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
19 Now, then there is -- during my absence there was the issue of
20 the Nikolic motion for the testimony of two individuals, Witnesses 3DW8
21 and 3DW9 to be heard via conference link. This was filed confidentially
22 on the 8th of September. We have discussed this and we have -- yes,
23 Mr. Bourgon.
24 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Just to let
25 the Trial Chamber know that, of course, we have been drafting a reply
1 which will be filed tonight because we filed this motion, the Prosecution
2 objected in its response, and we are within the normal time frame to file
3 our reply today, Mr. President. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, we are dispensing you from -- exempting you
5 from the need to file this reply. We have considered the reasons put
6 forward by the Nikolic Defence team for the testimony of these
7 individuals to be heard via conference link and we have also considered
8 the objection or the opposition of the Prosecution. When we have weighed
9 the two positions, we have come to the conclusions that -- the conclusion
10 that the reasons brought by the Prosecution in opposition to the motions
11 are not sufficiently weighty to justify the denial of the motion, which
12 seems to us to be justified. And therefore, we are granting the motion
13 and the preparations need to be put in place immediately by liaising
14 Mr. Bourgon and Ms. Nikolic, with the relative staff members to have this
15 organised. We haven't got a clue as to when they are expected to give
16 evidence, that does not transpire as such with clarity, so you need to do
17 this as soon as possible.
18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We were -- we have
19 already been in contact with the staff from the registry in the event the
20 motion was granted to set a date and this would be likely on the 24th of
21 September and we will continue our liaison work with the registry staff.
22 Thank you Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Now, there is the other matter
24 which was raised about three weeks ago by Madam Fauveau which received
25 practically an across the floor, across-the-floor support from the other
1 Defence teams as well as the Prosecution. You have asked for a break in
2 these proceedings to enable you to cope with perusing the voluminous
3 amount of new material that has been given to you by the Prosecution.
4 We have considered primarily the nature of your request. We do
5 not, of course, for a moment think that it is a capricious request. We
6 also have considered the amount of material that needs to be perused in
7 respect of whether ultimately it shows up to be important or not for
8 these cases. Actually from what I could gather at the time that
9 submissions were made, not even the Prosecution had the time to go
10 through these documents and see for themselves whether they were
11 relatively important for these proceedings.
12 We do not, however, feel that all the time that you have
13 requested can be justified, especially since the various Defence cases
14 here are staggered. If anything, for example, the position of the
15 Nikolic Defence team is -- would call for more understanding. Same
16 applies to the Borovcanin Defence team. We believe that if we grant you
17 the limited break that we are going to mention, it should be enough.
18 Then obviously as we have done in the past, should later on after you
19 have concluded this exercise, should it transpire that there is fresh
20 information, new information that justifies us going back and provide a
21 remedy, then of course we will do so.
22 However, we have considered a little bit where we stand, also how
23 we are proceeding and we have decided to grant a break in these
24 proceedings starting from the 13th of October until the 17th. Basically,
25 although on the face of it that looks like five days, it is more than
1 that. You have actually from the 11th until the 19th. We have also
2 chosen that week because the following week is a shorter week. Instead
3 of a five day week, it's a four day week, 24th October being a UN
4 holiday. So you will have further three days at the end of the
5 subsequent week which should according to us help you cope with the
6 difficult situation that has arisen.
7 Okay. So that was all that I wanted to mention.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
10 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. There are two issues I
11 would like to bring to the Court's attention at this time. The first one
12 in relation to the scheduling instruction we have just received. It is
13 just to inform the Trial Chamber that it is our intention to try and end
14 the presentation of the case for the Defence of Drago Nikolic by Friday,
15 the 3rd of October. Of course we don't know whether that will be
16 possible or not. We will do our best to finish the presentation of our
17 case within a time period of three weeks. That being said, I've already
18 had some discussions with my colleague from the Prosecution concerning a
19 specific day that they want to change a witness, and we are continuing to
20 talk about this specific date.
21 That was the first issue, Mr. President. The second issue is
22 something that was brought to my attention just before the beginning of
23 this court session today and I need to go into private session,
24 Mr. President, to speak about that, please.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.
1 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session. So next witness.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, to you, Mr. Sakotic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome. You are about to start --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: You have been summoned here as a witness by the
17 Defence team for Drago Nikolic. Before you start your testimony, which
18 hopefully as expected will be a short one, you are required by our rules
19 to make a solemn declaration, equivalent to an oath in certain
20 jurisdictions, that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking
21 the truth. Madam Usher is going to hand you the text of this
22 declaration, please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn
23 undertaking with us.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sakotic. Please make yourself
3 WITNESS: MIRKO SAKOTIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a 92 ter witness, so you know what the
6 procedure is, Ms. Nikolic. Go ahead.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Ms. Nikolic:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sakotic.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. We've already met?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But I will state my fame for the record. My name is
14 Jelena Nikolic and I represent Mr. Nikolic. Would you be so kind as to
15 tell us your full name.
16 A. My name is Mirko Sakotic. I live in Zvornik. I work in the
17 Birac factory. I was born on the 5th of March, 1952, in Donji Davidovici
18 in Bilice municipality.
19 Q. Where do you live today, and where do you work?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, the counsel is kindly asked
21 to speak into the microphone.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I currently live in Zvornik and I
23 work in the Birac factory in Zvornik.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What education do you have, what kind of degree do you hold, how
1 are you qualified for your job?
2 A. I am a technician which means that I completed two years of
3 vocational college.
4 Q. Mr. Sakotic, do you recall having given a statement to
5 Drago Nikolic's Defence on the 5th of April, 2008?
6 A. Yes, I gave this statement. It was in Zvornik.
7 Q. Did you have an opportunity to read your statement before signing
8 it and in the few days before your appearance here in Court in the course
9 of your proofing?
10 A. Yes, I did have an opportunity to read it then and I also read it
11 now just before my testimony here.
12 Q. Because we are proceeding under Rule 92 ter, I will now read a
13 summary of your statement for the record.
14 The witness lives in Zvornik and is employed as a technician in
15 the Birac factory in Zvornik. The witness was mobilised on the 1st of
16 June, 1992, and remained mobilised until the 17th of January, 1992
17 he was mobilised again on the 12th of August, 1994, and this lasted until
18 the 29th of October, 1994, in the Zvornik Brigade in the traffic and
19 transport section which was in the rear.
20 The assistant commander for logistics of the Zvornik Brigade in
21 July 1995 was Sreten Milosevic. The witness stated that the role of the
22 transport and traffic department or section was to receive oral orders,
23 to dispatch vehicles. This was done on the orders of the commander
24 through the assistant commander for logistics. The witness's immediate
25 superior was Radislav Pantic, the chief for transport and traffic in the
1 Zvornik Brigade. The witness remembers that the vehicle would be
2 dispatched on a mission depending on the number of personnel and the
3 quantity of ammunition, food, and other stuff that needed to be
4 transported and the type of terrain where the vehicle was to be sent.
5 The transport and traffic department would dispatch a vehicle and
6 the driver who was in charge of that vehicle and each vehicle had a
7 driver assigned to it. Sometimes in the vehicle log the names of other
8 drivers, replacement drivers, would also be entered. All the tasks for
9 the transport and traffic department were set during the morning
10 operational briefings of the brigade and were relayed to the department,
11 the transport and traffic department, through the assistant commander for
12 logistics, or in his absence, the commander of the logistics battalion
13 or, in other cases, duty operational officers could issue tasks to the
14 transport and traffic department.
15 The witness recalls that in July 1995 Radislav Pantic was absent
16 because of a death in his family. In Pantic's absence, either the
17 witness himself or Miso Pavicevic would sign the travel orders or vehicle
18 logs. The witness explained how this document was filled in and what it
20 The witness knows Djordje Gotovac who was a driver in the Zvornik
21 Brigade and he drove a van. The witness explained the travel order,
22 ERN 0069465300694654, for a Volkswagen van D2, with Djordje Gotovac
23 designated as the driver, and he remembers that the column with the
24 actual routes for the 14th of July, 1995, does not correspond to the
25 capabilities of the vehicle, the mileage, and that the mileage actually
1 does not tally with the number of trips.
2 The witness recognizes his signature on the order for the D2
3 Volkswagen van and remembers that he was on duty in the transport and
4 traffic department of the brigade on the 14th of July, 1995.
5 According to the travel order and to the best of his
6 recollection, Djordje Gotovac was dispatched to Uzice in Serbia
7 day. The witness remembers that Djordje Gotovac did not receive an order
8 to take his vehicle to Orahovac on that day. To the best of his
9 recollection, the witness believes that Djordje Gotovac never asked for
10 days off from the witness during the war, nor was the witness authorised
11 to approve any request for days off, or any leave for the drivers.
12 Just a moment, let me check something. Something has been left
13 unclear in the transcript, but I will clarify this in my examination.
14 The witness speaks about the special procedure about the filling
15 in of travel orders for the battalion. Each battalion had its assistants
16 for logistics and this person was in charge of assigning the vehicles and
17 using the vehicles. The battalion assistant for logistics signed the
18 travel orders.
19 The witness explains that travel order ERN number
20 0069489800694899 for a D2 Mercedes vehicle with Veljko Ivanovic and
21 Vukasin Peric designated as its drivers, claiming that there is no
22 signature of his on that document.
23 The witness assumes that the signature on the order is that of
24 the battalion assistant commander for logistics in the second battalion.
25 The witness confirms that the use of the vehicle listed on this
1 travel order was within the jurisdiction of the battalion commander,
2 Sreco Acimovic. Explaining the procedure for the use of vehicles in the
3 battalions, the witness confirms that the battalion commander would issue
4 orders to the driver on the use of the vehicle because both the vehicles
5 and the drivers were fully within the jurisdiction of the battalion.
6 The transport and traffic department of the brigade had one
7 obligation only, and that was to issue fuel to the battalion on a monthly
8 basis to cover its needs, and then this quantity would be delivered to
9 the battalions in barrels, and then they used it as they saw fit.
10 Q. This completes my summary of your statement under Rule 92 ter.
11 Mr. Sakotic, now, I would like to ask you whether this summary that I've
12 just read reflects what you said in your statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The facts contained in your statement, are they true and
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do they reflect accurately what you would have said to the Judges
18 had you been asked to describe those events?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this moment I would like to
21 tender into evidence document 3D473, that is Mr. Mirko Sakotic's
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I would take it there's no objection, Mr. Thayer?
24 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Other Defence teams? None. Okay, yes,
1 Ms. Nikolic.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like to
3 ask some questions in order to get a more detailed explanation of some of
4 the things that he put in his statement. Thank you very much.
5 Q. Mr. Sakotic, could you please explain to us the structure of the
6 transport and traffic department in the Zvornik Brigade and how many
7 personnel were there in that department?
8 A. The transport and traffic department of the Zvornik Brigade
9 functioned in the following manner. There was a platoon of drivers, part
10 of the logistics battalion, there was a chief and two desk officers who
11 were in the brigade command. They were a separate service. They
12 provided the logistics for the transportation of the personnel,
13 equipment, material, everything that had to do with transportation.
14 Q. The three desk officers that you told us about, what was the
15 nature of their job?
16 A. Well, there was the chief and two desk officers. We received our
17 assignments from the assistant commander for logistics regarding the
18 activities that were planned for each day, and in accordance with the
19 requests, we would dispatch vehicles, we would provide the vehicles with
20 enough fuel to complete the mission and we would just dispatch them on
21 their way.
22 We had those regular routes, every day rotation of personnel in
23 the brigade, transportation of food, so those were our daily tasks. We
24 knew those were standing orders. We didn't have to receive specific
25 orders to that effect every day. We knew what to do and nothing changed
1 in this respect.
2 Q. Mr. Sakotic, who was the chief of the transport department in the
3 Zvornik Brigade in July 1995, and who were the desk officers?
4 A. The chief of the department was Antic [as interpreted], Radislav.
5 He had a degree in transportation engineering. The desk officers were
6 myself Mirko Sakotic and Miso Pavicevic I think he joined the brigade in
7 1995, or rather, that's when he joined this department of ours.
8 Q. You've told us that the drivers were part of the logistics
9 battalion. Who was the commander of the logistics battalion in the
10 Zvornik Brigade?
11 A. Are you talking about 1995?
12 Q. July 1995?
13 A. It was Radivoje Obradovic.
14 Q. Could you please repeat the name of the chief of the transport
15 and traffic department because it was not recorded accurately in the
17 A. Radislav Pantic.
18 Q. Thank you. In the course of your proofing, you were able to note
19 an error in your statement and now I would like us to clarify that.
20 In July 1995, in the transport and traffic department, who did
21 you receive orders from and how?
22 A. All the orders -- and this goes not only for July but throughout
23 this period, all the orders came from the assistant commander for
24 logistics through the battalion -- logistics battalion commander and, in
25 their absence, the orders could be issued by the duty officer. The duty
1 operations officer as we called him.
2 Q. In July 1995, did you ever receive any orders from other
3 assistant commanders or chiefs of staff such as the chief of engineers,
4 chief of security?
5 A. No, this was not the usual practice and if -- they probably
6 talked to the assistant for logistics.
7 Q. Was dispatching engineering vehicles part of your jurisdiction,
8 of the purview of the transport and traffic department?
9 A. No, the engineers had their own fleet of vehicles. They carried
10 out their tasks using their own vehicles. Our role in all this was to
11 issue fuel in accordance with the orders that also specified the
13 Q. How did you receive your orders, orally or in writing, from the
14 assistant commander for logistics?
15 A. Orally.
16 Q. Did those oral orders contain a description of the nature of the
17 task why a vehicle was to be dispatched to a certain location?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And can you tell us why the desk officers, why the transport and
20 traffic department did not receive information about the nature of the
21 task that the vehicles would be used for?
22 A. In the military, some information is confidential and if such
23 information were to be disseminated to reach each and every soldier, then
24 you would have no discipline, no nothing.
25 Q. Could you just briefly tell us something about a travel order
1 that is part of your statement, 92 ter statement. Could we please have
2 page 109 of P295.
3 Mr. Sakotic, you will see in front of you on the screen a
4 document. That's P295. Have you seen this document as you were
5 preparing for giving your statement and for your testimony here today,
6 Mr. Sakotic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What is this document?
9 A. This is a form for a travel order or a vehicle log. Each vehicle
10 had this and as you can see it was typed in, and this was done in our
11 department. Information about the vehicle, consumption, what kind of
12 fuel, and the name of the driver. If the driver's name changed, then a
13 new name would be added, but as a rule, each vehicle had a designated
14 driver and there was also the signature of the chief of the transport and
15 traffic department down there in the corner.
16 Q. When would you fill in those items?
17 A. At the end of any given month we would do that for the following
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer?
20 MR. THAYER: Just to clarify the record -- blinking -- now it's
21 connected. Thank you. Just to clarify for the record, the witness just
22 indicated that he recognised a signature somewhere in the corner. If we
23 could just specify that for the record which signature it is since there
24 are a number of signatures on this page, please. Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You will agree to that, I am sure, Ms. Nikolic.
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At page -- Mr. Prosecutor, on the
3 front page, that's item 2, in the lower right-hand corner you have the
4 signatures of Pantic, Radislav, the chief of the department. It says
5 here transport and traffic desk officer, Radislav Pantic would sign that,
6 and in his absence, I would do that or the other desk officer.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. When was this part of the travel order filled in and when was it
9 signed, this part that you said was typed in in your department and then
10 it was signed?
11 A. It was done at the end of a month for the following month.
12 Q. The other pages of the travel order, were they filled in at the
13 same time when this information was filled in and when the front page was
14 signed by the transport and traffic desk officer?
15 A. All the rest was blank.
16 Q. When we look at this document, you can see the middle column
17 where you have some entries written by hand, information about the
18 receipt of fuel and lubricant. So who would fill in this middle part of
19 the document, who made those entries?
20 A. The middle part of the document was filled in by whoever issued
21 the order for the fuel to be issued, and here where you see it says
22 signature of handlers, those were soldiers who were filling the vehicles
23 up at the gas station.
24 Q. On the front page here, do you know -- can you recognise anyone's
25 handwriting, any of the handlers and the names of the drivers?
1 A. You can see the names of the drivers are Djordje Gotovac,
2 Bosko Babic and Djuric Milic. And I recognise the signature of Mile or
3 Milenko Nikolic, one of the handlers. I don't know his exact name but
4 his nickname was Mile. And Stevo Gajic too.
5 Q. Could we now move on to the next page of this document. That's
6 page 110 in e-court.
7 Mr. Sakotic, can you see this fairly well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, I would like to ask you who fills in the second page of this
11 A. The second page of this document, date, time, whoever needs the
12 vehicle, the route, the mileage, number of trips, and so on, that's
13 filled in by the driver. And column number 20 is filled in by the desk
14 officer or the chief, whoever signed the travel order fills in this part.
15 Q. In this travel order, do you know which of the drivers filled it
17 A. Well, obviously this is Djoko Gotovac. This is all his
19 Q. Do you recall if Mr. Pantic was present at his workplace in the
20 traffic and transport department in the brigade on the 15th of July?
21 A. No, he was not there. He had a death in his family, his mother
22 died, so he was not there. He was not in the brigade.
23 Q. Mr. Sakotic, have a look at this work log and try to locate the
24 14th of July entries.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Concerning the entry for the 14th of July, who was the desk
2 officer who signed off as the user?
3 A. As you can see, it was myself.
4 Q. Please explain this vehicle movement on the 14th of July. What
5 sort of an order did the driver, Mr. Gotovac, receive?
6 A. Looking at the order, I can tell you that Gotovac on that day
7 went to Uzice. As for the route, Zvornik-Uzice, that means he set out at
8 6 o'clock
9 it was 5 or 6 that day. As for the relation, the distance and the route,
10 it says Zvornik-Uzice loko.
11 Q. When did you sign this travel order for Mr. Gotovac, what time of
12 day would you usually do that?
13 A. The driver must not set off without a neatly filled in travel
14 order. In particular the route needs to be noted and signed by the
15 person who ordered the trip to be made. That is the traffic desk
17 Q. May I conclude that you signed this before the driver left, in
18 this case it was Djordje Gotovac?
19 A. Yes, there is a possible that I signed it either on July, late in
20 the evening, or the 14th, early in the morning, because he left for Uzice
21 early in the morning.
22 Q. Could we please have 3D484 in e-court. While waiting for it, I
23 will ask you this: In the proofing for your testimony, you did some
24 calculations according to the data on the order and you made some of your
25 markings or rather you noted some things down. Could you please explain
1 to the Chamber what your conclusions were when you started this travel
3 A. We should have a look at the next page.
4 Q. That is page 2 of 3D484. Before I ask you anything, I wanted to
5 ask you this: Mr. Sakotic, the additional numbers, the figures on the
6 order, whose handwriting is it?
7 A. Mine. I made these notes during the proofing. I did that
8 because I was curious about the kilometres. It struck me as unusual, six
9 trips, 50 people on the route between Zvornik and Uzice. It is 130
10 kilometres one way which would mean 260 kilometres for one trip, and
11 according to the data here, we have 402 kilometres. For six trips, he
12 should have made 1.560 kilometres. It struck me as odd. Obviously the
13 travel order was not filled in properly.
14 Q. Have a look at the entry for the 13th of July, 1995. What can
15 you tell us about that?
16 A. The driver on the 13th of July went from Zvornik to Mali Zvornik
17 and then to Celopek. As far as I can recall, the distance is some 79
18 kilometres. He left at 7 a.m.
19 total that he spent driving that route which one can complete in an hour.
20 I did not issue him with any order of that sort. I was the one issuing
21 the order for the 14th only.
22 Q. On the 14th of July, 1995, did you order Djordje Gotovac to go
23 and perform an additional task to take food and drinks to the soldiers in
24 Orahovac at the school there, and did you do that orally?
25 A. No, I did not. That was in the travel order. Orahovac is a trip
1 on its own. It is not something that would fall under the loko item.
2 Q. If we look at the loko for the 14th of July 1995, what does this
3 loko refer to, and this issue ordered to Djordje Gotovac?
4 A. When the driver set off from Zvornik to Uzice he can only, of
5 course, note down Zvornik-Uzice. In Uzice, if there was any local
6 movement, he inserts Loko and then that should have been followed by a
7 dash and then Zvornik to indicate that he returned to the base.
8 Therefore, I see this only as local movement in Uzice itself. Otherwise,
9 when we would dispatch drivers, for precaution we would always supply
10 them with a bit more fuel than they would regularly need to cover that
12 Q. You've already answered that on the 14th of July you did not
13 dispatch Gotovac to perform any other tasks.
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Since Mr. Pantic was absent on the 14th and 15th of July, did
16 Djordje Gotovac ask you for any days off, in particular on the 14th of
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did he ever ask you for any leave? As best you can recall, do
20 you remember such an event?
21 A. No, for the simple reason that we could not approve any leave for
22 Djordje Gotovac. He wasn't part of our unit. He was a member of the
23 rear battalion, had his own commander and it was his commander who could
24 approve his leave.
25 Q. When you said "we" could not approve any leave for him, who did
1 you have in mind?
2 A. The drivers.
3 Q. In the transport section?
4 A. Any of the soldiers there. It was three of us there and it was
5 all done through the assistant commander for logistics. We could not go
6 on leave without his approval and we in turn could not approve anyone's
7 leave because we did not have our subordinates. We were independent, and
8 we were plain soldiers.
9 Q. Could we please have in e-court 3D51 --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 3D311.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] 3DP311. Attendance records of the
12 brigade command.
13 Q. Mr. Sakotic, you have seen this document during proofing. In
14 item 23 there is a name, it says Pantic.
15 A. Yes, item 23 Pantic, Radislav. Father's same Slobodan.
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could you please zoom out so that
17 we would be able to see the dates as well.
18 Q. Concerning the 13th, 14th and 15th of July, can you tell us what
19 are the markings concerning Radislav Pantic?
20 A. It says on leave, on leave, on leave.
21 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will no longer need
22 this document.
23 Q. Tell us, in a few words, what was the functioning of transport
24 like in the battalions?
25 A. Each battalion had its own rolling stock that they could use to
1 perform their regular duties. By that, I mean the transport of soldiers
2 for shift rotations. Some battalions were assisted by us because they
3 did not have sufficient number of vehicles. They had an ambulance and a
4 command vehicle as well. They had tractors used to take food to the
5 frontlines which were difficult to access. In short, they had their own
6 fleet of vehicles independent of the brigade.
7 Q. Who ordered the use of vehicles in the battalions? Who issued
9 A. Probably on battalion commander's orders through the assistant
10 commander for logistics, and down to the drivers. That would be the
11 usual hierarchy.
12 Q. You mean assistant commander for logistics in battalions?
13 A. Yes, yes. In some units you even had traffic and transport desk
14 officers, but not always.
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P295 in
16 e-court next. Page 354, 355 in B/C/S and 355 to 358 in the English.
17 However, let us start with 345 [as interpreted] in the B/C/S and 355 in
18 the English version.
19 Q. While we are waiting for the document -- yes, Mr. Sakotic, are
20 you familiar with this document?
21 A. Yes, I can see it, and I'm familiar with it.
22 Q. What is it? A travel order?
23 A. Yes. A travel order of the second battalion. The commander was
24 Sreco Acimovic. Logistics assistant commander, I think his name was
25 Pisic, aka Zico. The drivers were Peric, Vukasin, and Ivanovic, Veljko.
1 Q. When we look at page 1 of this travel order, the part that is
2 typed in and then we see a signature by a desk officer. Please explain
3 to us how come it was Mr. Pantic's signature on this battalion travel
5 A. Battalions, much as brigades, keep their transport archives with
6 the brigade, to the traffic section there, towards the end of any month.
7 This was blank and then the same way we treated it it would be filled in
8 the previous month for the next month. They could not be issued with
9 another new order without having filled in the old one.
10 Q. What was the situation like with the fuel issued in relation to
11 the battalion travel orders?
12 A. It is signed by everyone who took part, those who issued fuel,
13 those who received it. In the column where it says 118 in total, where
14 we have a further breakdown of how much was meant to be spent, how much
15 was spent in fact, and then we have the signature as well. This had to
16 be filled in before this order would be concluded.
17 Q. What about the column user signature, that's the last column, or
18 the operator signature?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It's the last rectangle, whose signature is it?
21 A. Pisic, Zico or Zivojin, assistant commander for logistics in the
22 2nd Battalion.
23 Q. Did battalions receive fuel in any other way except by fueling
24 their vehicles at the gas station of the brigade?
25 A. Since there were problems with the supply of fuel, it was known
1 which battalion could be issued with how much fuel for their needs. In
2 most cases, they would receive that fuel in cannisters or barrels and
3 then they would use that in their own respective brigades as they saw
5 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at page
6 2 of the document. In the B/C/S 355, in the English 356.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer?
8 MR. THAYER: Sorry, Mr. President. There's a delay on my
9 microphone coming on, I apologise. Just before we get to the next
10 question, just a clarification at line 29 -- sorry, page 29, line 15, my
11 LiveNote doesn't record the name that the witness provided as the
12 assistant commander for logistics in the second battalion. It's line 19.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic, I think Mr. Thayer is right.
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think it was
15 line 23 because I see the sign that something is missing there. I will
16 clarify with the witness.
17 Q. Mr. Sakotic, what was the name of the assistant commander for
18 logistics in the 2nd Battalion?
19 A. As far as I knew, it was Pisi c. His first name was either Zivan
20 or Zivojin. His nickname was Zico.
21 Q. Pesic or Pisic?
22 A. Pisic. P-i-s-i-c.
23 Q. It seems that it is incorrect again. Please tell us again.
24 Spell it for us.
25 A. P-i-s-i-c.
1 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at page 2 and tell us who
2 filled in the second page on the travel order for the drivers from this
4 A. As you can see from this order it is quite apparent that this is
5 filled in by the drivers using the vehicles.
6 Q. And who affixes the signature in column 20, signature of user?
7 A. That would be the drivers who drove the vehicle on that day.
8 Q. And at the end of this column 20, the last signature down there,
9 the signature of the person approving it, whose signatures is it?
10 A. That is Pisic's signature. He calculated the mileage and the
11 fuel consumption.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the handwriting of any of the drivers on
13 this order?
14 A. Well, you can see Peric, P, Vukasin, and Ivanovic,
15 Veljko Ivanovic. I assume that that would be Veljko, the driver. And
16 there is a signature, Vlado -- I don't know really. I think he was a
17 desk officer in the technical service, that would be Vlado Acimovic, so
18 it's possible that it is his signature.
19 Q. To the best of your recollection, although you may already have
20 given me a partial answer to this question, those drivers,
21 Veljko Ivanovic and others, on whose orders did drivers from the
22 2nd Battalion go on mission in July 1995?
23 A. On the orders of the battalion commander, I assume, and the
24 orders of the battalion. It is quite obvious from the way this is filled
25 in that they had nothing to do with the brigade. This was a battalion
2 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the 2nd Battalion in July
4 A. Sreco Acimovic was the commander of the battalion throughout the
5 whole time, which includes that specific time period too.
6 Q. Sreco Acimovic?
7 A. Acimovic, yes.
8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This
9 completes my examination-in-chief.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Any other cross-examinations?
11 Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'm not cross-examining this witness,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nikolic?
15 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have any
17 MR. GOSNELL: No questions, thank you Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
21 MR. JOSSE: No, thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
23 MR. HAYNES: No, thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, do you prefer to start now or after the
25 break? We can have the break now, in other words.
1 MR. THAYER: That would be my preference, Mr. President. Thank
3 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you expect your cross-examination to
5 MR. THAYER: I've estimated an hour. I'll try to come in under
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The next witness is ready here,
8 Mr. Bourgon or Ms. Nikolic?
9 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer, cross.
14 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you and
15 Your Honours. Good afternoon, everyone.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
17 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Nelson Thayer, I'll be asking
18 you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.
19 Now, in July of 1995, Captain First Class Sreten Milosevic was
20 the assistant commander for logistics in the brigade; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you know who preceded him in that position, sir?
23 A. I believe it was Nikolic. I don't recall the first name.
24 Lieutenant -- well, it was Nikolic. But before him it was
25 Miso Kanostrelac.
1 Q. And the Nikolic to whom you were referring, was his first name
2 possibly Bosko, sir?
3 A. Bosko, yes. Bosko Nikolic.
4 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber when it was that Captain Milosevic
5 took over from Mr. Nikolic?
6 A. I really don't recall that.
7 Q. And is Bosko Nikolic any relation to security chief
8 Drago Nikolic, sir?
9 A. I don't think so.
10 MR. THAYER: Now, if we may see 65 ter 3742 briefly, please. And
11 if we could scroll over on the B/C/S just a little bit to the left.
12 Thank you, that's perfect. Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, I'm showing you what is a page from the Zvornik Brigade
14 phone directory, and I just want to turn your attention to about the
15 middle of the page where it indicates the chief of the traffic and
16 transport service and there are four names, all of which you mentioned in
17 your evidence in chief. Radislav Pantic; yourself, Mirko Sakotic;
18 Milorad Pavicevic; and Radivoje Obradovic. I note also -- if you go up a
19 bit you'll see a listing for the assistant commander for logistics,
20 Second Lieutenant Bosko Nikolic.
21 Sir, you testified that your recollection was that
22 Milorad Pavicevic joined the brigade sometime in 1995. I note here that
23 this doesn't list Captain Milosevic as the assistant commander for
24 logistics and I'm just wondering if this helps you help the Court
25 determine approximately what date in 1995 Mr. Milosevic became the
1 assistant commander for logistics? Can you put any period of time in
3 A. I really don't know. And Radivoje Obradovic, I don't know, he
4 never was in the transport and traffic department, as far as I know.
5 Q. Okay. In any event, this indicates that Mr. Pavicevic had been
6 in the brigade for some period of time if he preceded Mr. Milosevic in
7 the rear units; correct?
8 A. I think that Mr. Milosevic was the assistant commander for
9 logistics and that Milorad Pavicevic came in that period too. I think he
10 was in one of the battalions, the 3rd Battalion. I don't know, something
11 like that.
12 Q. And again, you've referred to Mr. Pavicevic by the nickname Miso;
14 A. Yes, yes, that's the one.
15 Q. And Mr. Pantic's nickname was Panto; is that correct?
16 A. Panto. Yes, that's correct.
17 MR. THAYER: Thank you we are done with that document.
18 Q. Now, it almost goes without saying, sir, that during the war fuel
19 was a precious resource and the army had to keep very close track of it
20 at every level, from the battalion all the way up to the Main Staff; do
21 you agree with that, sir?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. Now, I just want to see whether you agree or disagree with some
24 information that Mr. Pantic shared with the authorities in Sarajevo in an
25 interview he gave and also with us, the OTP, in an interview he gave to
1 us in 2007 as well.
2 When he was interviewed by the Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo
3 and for my friends this is at paragraph 15 of the SIPA statement. That's
4 page 6 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S. We can put that up as
6 He said that he and yourself, sir, kept accurate records of the
7 daily consumption of fuel and that the technical administration was in
8 charge of the total consumption of fuel within the brigade. Do you agree
9 with that, sir?
10 A. I agree with you, yes.
11 Q. And when he was interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in
12 2007 -- and this is page 14. I'm just going to try to save some time and
13 we won't put it up on the e-court. He told us that you were very careful
14 about filling out the transportation logs, the vehicle work orders, and
15 making sure that the paperwork was in order before a vehicle could leave
16 the barracks and that that was a way also to control the use of the
17 vehicles and prevent misuse or unauthorized use of the vehicles. Do you
18 agree with that statement as well, sir?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. He described how a vehicle would not be able to leave the
21 barracks unless yourself or someone else on your behalf or on Pantic's
22 behalf signed off and said that they could leave with one of those
23 vehicle logs. Do you agree with that, sir? That's at page 17 of the OTP
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, he was asked a specific question about engineering
2 equipment, engineering vehicles, and with respect to those types of
3 vehicles he said, and this is at page 5 of the statement in Sarajevo
4 both the English and the B/C/S. He said: "Myself, Mirko Sakotic and
5 Miso Pavicevic would usually sign the first page." I think that's
6 consistent with what you said today; is that correct, sir?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. So let me just ask you, putting aside the specific situation of
9 engineering vehicles, is it also true that in general with respect to
10 regular trucks, vans or other vehicles, any three of you could sign the
11 work orders?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. And which way is that not correct, sir?
14 A. I will make just one correction. If, if Pantic or somebody else,
15 because there was a shortage of vehicles, usually those were just those
16 small trucks or something like that. So if there was a possibility for
17 us to do something and we didn't have the vehicles, we could call the
18 engineers, the engineers commander and ask them to give us their vehicle,
19 and then we would sign the travel order. But that happened very rarely.
20 I don't recall having ever signed such an order, and I don't know whether
21 Pantic did or not. I don't think so.
22 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, my question wasn't clear, sir.
23 What I was trying to ask you was, putting aside occasions where
24 engineering equipment was at issue, just in general during your
25 day-to-day work in the traffic services unit, with respect to the day in
1 and day out vehicles logs, be it a TAM 130 or a Volkswagen van or what
2 have you, is it true that any one of the three of you could sign off on
3 those logs?
4 A. We could sign the blank travel orders and we would give it to
5 them at the beginning of the month, but they had to hand in the old
6 vehicle logs or travel orders. In other words, no new travel orders
7 could be issued for any vehicles unless the old travel order for the
8 previous month was correctly filled in and then handed in. And I don't
9 know who did that, who took care of that, their assistant commander or
10 somebody like that.
11 Q. Okay. But just to be clear, when those blank travel orders were
12 filled in at the end of the month for the next month, it could have been
13 yourself, Mr. Pantic or Mr. Pavicevic who could have signed that; is that
14 fair to say? Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, what you are saying is correct. And we prepared those logs
16 at the end of the month. So in the period between the 25th and the 30th,
17 whenever we had some spare time, we would prepare them for each unit,
18 those blank forms, but we would just fill in the front page where it said
19 the type of the vehicle, drivers and so on.
20 Q. And, sir, we'll look at some specific examples in a little while,
21 but on these forms, usually on the left-hand side, there is a column that
22 asks for a condition of the vehicle or a description of the condition of
23 the vehicle, and that was also something that someone in your position
24 would sign off on before the vehicle was released; is that correct? It
25 had to be listed in working or not working order or some assessment of
1 the condition of the vehicle had to be attested to by a signature; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes. At the back, the last page of the travel order, this is
4 where you certified the -- that the vehicle was in good working order.
5 Usually this was done by the technical service that did the maintenance.
6 We in the logistics battalion -- well, there are quite a few of the
7 signatures that belong to me, to Pantic, and somebody from the technical
8 service, Milic or whoever. Sometimes it was difficult to find this man,
9 he was out on a task somewhere and the vehicle had to go out, somebody
10 would sign it there.
11 And every time a vehicle would go out on a trip, on the return
12 the -- it was verified whether it was in good working order and then a
13 certification was made to that effect.
14 Q. And sometimes, if I understand what you are telling us, sir, if
15 that individual that couldn't be found was not around, that somebody who
16 would sign off on the condition of the vehicle would be yourself or one
17 of the -- or the other desk officer Mr. Pavicevic or Mr. Pantic himself;
18 is that fair to say?
19 A. Yes, for logistics vehicles, yes.
20 Q. Now, with respect to these work orders, these vehicle logs, if I
21 understand your testimony correctly, when a driver receives his task for
22 the day, before he can leave with the vehicle, he has to have a route
23 filled in on that log in order for him to be approved to leave Standard;
24 is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct. And once the trip is filled in by the
1 driver, then one of us desk officers signed it and issued fuel for that
3 Q. And that's before he even turns the key, correct, sir?
4 A. Yes. Correct.
5 Q. Now, it was the case, was it not, that if a driver were given an
6 additional assignment or even more than one additional assignment during
7 the day, particularly if that assignment was local, it would happen that
8 that local trip might be listed simply eventually as "local" on the log
9 later; correct?
10 A. Well, local trips would be maybe a distance of 2 or 3 kilometres,
11 the surrounding area around the barracks, the gas station in Zvornik. So
12 that was considered as a local trip, local.
13 Q. And it was the case, was it not, sir, that surely there were
14 occasions when a driver who was given a number of such local tasks during
15 a given day, particularly if those additional tasks were issued at the
16 end of the day, might not even record the fact that he went to a local
17 destination in the vehicle log?
18 A. Well, I don't remember, but it's possible that this might have
19 happened, but the mileage was very low here. As a rule, anyone who went
20 anywhere had to record it.
21 Q. Understood, sir.
22 Now, you testified in your evidence in chief that you were not
23 told the nature of the assignment when it was given orally, or that the
24 drivers were not given the nature of their assignment when it was given
25 to them orally. I just want to ask you a couple of questions about that,
2 Doesn't a driver need to know certain basic things about the
3 nature of his tasks? For example, what is it that he is going to be
4 carrying in the back of his truck, whether it's ammunition, whether it's
5 something that's very heavy, whether it's something that is human,
6 wounded people to a hospital, soldiers to a frontline? Don't the drivers
7 need to know certain information about the nature of their task so that
8 they know and you know that the right vehicle, the appropriate vehicle is
9 being dispatched for the task at hand?
10 A. Well, quite simply, in an oral order it is stated, Send a TAM
11 truck to transport 15 soldiers from here to there, or send a TAM truck to
12 the ammo to transport a certain quantity of ammunition. So we didn't
13 specify anything. We simply knew that. We were told that. We always
14 knew the number of soldiers in each shift. We always had the appropriate
15 vehicles. If you had two or three people, you would always -- you would
16 never send a truck but some other vehicle. If somebody was wounded, you
17 would not send a truck, there were other vehicles and so on.
18 Q. Now, one thing you said before we broke that kind of stuck in my
19 mind, sir, was with respect to one of the vehicle logs, particularly the
20 one that involved Mr. Veljko Ivanovic. You suggested that that was
21 strictly a battalion log and that it had nothing to do with the brigade.
22 Do you remember that testimony, sir?
23 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Okay. Are you aware, first of all, sir, that that very record
25 was seized from the Zvornik Brigade pursuant to a search warrant in 1998,
1 not from any battalion but from the brigade itself? Are you aware of
2 that, sir?
3 A. During the proofing I saw some orders and this is how I learned
4 that, in fact, that was the case.
5 Q. And, sir, isn't it fair to say given what you've told the
6 Trial Chamber about the importance of fuel and the importance of knowing
7 what the various logistics needs are within the brigade, be it for fuel,
8 food, ammunition, that such a record that you spoke about and identified
9 as being simply a battalion document had everything to do with the
10 brigade because it was the brigade that needed to know and what the use
11 demands were within the battalions in order to understand what the
12 brigade had available in its reserves and what it could issue out to the
13 various battalions?
14 A. I didn't really understand the thrust of your question.
15 Q. My question is, sir, the document that you spoke about, that you
16 identified as coming from the 2nd Battalion, that has everything to do
17 with the brigade, does it not, sir, because it's precisely these vehicle
18 logs that you were using day in and day out to ensure the fuel usage was
20 A. But we didn't fill in anything on any of the vehicle logs or
21 travel orders apart from those items that were typed in. Everything else
22 was filled in by the battalion. If they had any emergency demands, they
23 would get their fuel either from the brigade or from some donors. I
24 really don't know. We simply filled in what was on the front page and
25 the desk officer or the chief of the transport and traffic service would
1 affix his signature.
2 Q. And, sir, weren't these work orders, these vehicle logs, an
3 important link between the brigades and the battalions to keep track of
4 the logistics needs of the brigade, and of the battalions in turn?
5 A. Well, all the travel orders were kept in the brigade by us, from
6 battalions too, and battalions could not get new travel orders if they
7 hadn't handed in the old ones that recorded specifically the fuel
8 consumption, the mileage, and it had to be certified by a responsible
9 person, the assistant commander for logistics or whoever.
10 Q. Okay, sir, let's move on.
11 Just one last question about Mr. Pantic's conversations with us.
12 Again, with respect to occasions when equipment had to be mobilised, say
13 from Birac Holding, for the brigade's use, Mr. Pantic told us that if the
14 mobilisation of that equipment was large, the request would come from one
15 of three people; Sreten Milosevic, Dragan Obrenovic, or Vinko Pandurevic.
16 Do you agree with Mr. Pantic's statement?
17 A. Well, I really am not the chief of the transport and traffic
18 department, I don't have the information that Pantic had at his disposal,
19 so I really don't know how this mobilisation proceeded.
20 Q. Okay. Let's move to the week or so following the takeover by the
21 VRS of the Srebrenica enclave on 11 July 1995. I think we'll all agree
22 that you were on duty during this period of time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And say for the week to ten days following 11 July, were you
25 sleeping in the barracks or sleeping at Standard or were you permitted to
1 go home at night, sir?
2 A. Mostly at Standard. Sometimes people went home to take a bath or
3 something. I don't recall whether I was there every night, but most of
4 the nights, yes.
5 Q. And because vehicles would be returning to Standard at all hours
6 of the night or being needed at any time during the day or night, someone
7 had to remain on duty in your unit; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that person would be awakened if there is a need for
9 anything of the sort. They all knew where we slept.
10 Q. And Mr. Pavicevic was also staying in the barracks as well;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So when Mr. Pantic was absent from the 10th to the 15th of July,
14 you and Mr. Pavicevic were there the entire time; correct?
15 A. Most likely. Perhaps we would just go to our homes and then
16 quickly come back, but we were there.
17 Q. And if you went home, Mr. Pavicevic would cover for you; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And during this period of time, you would agree that you in fact
20 did go home at some point during this ten-day period to shower, as you
21 said, or see your family or perhaps have a hot meal?
22 A. To take a shower and to see my family.
23 Q. And again I'm speaking about --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment. Ms. Nikolic?
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask my
1 learned friend to be more precise about the period he is referring to.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You're referring to a ten-day period. I would
3 assume that Ms. Nikolic only wants to know the beginning and the end of
4 these ten days.
5 MR. THAYER:
6 Q. Sir, we've been referring to the ten days, as I said, following
7 the fall of the Srebrenica on the 11th of July. Has that been your
8 understanding during this questioning?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I'm going to show you some documents and I'm going to try to
11 move through them as quickly as I can. I want to show you some
12 signatures and ask you some questions about some of the entries.
13 MR. THAYER: If we could have P00295, and we'll be looking at
14 pages 37 and 38 of both the English and the B/C/S, please.
15 Q. You see a document -- an original document in your own language
16 in front of you, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And as we can see, this is vehicle work log for a Zastava 35.8;
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I just want to ask you if you can identify some of these
22 signatures. If we look at the lower right-hand corner at number 2, the
23 signature line. You recognise that signature, sir?
24 A. Yes, I do. It is Radislav Pantic's signature.
25 Q. And if we look almost directly above that signature, there is a
1 column, in the English it's been translated as "manager's signature."
2 It's the last column on the right. I would just ask you if you can
3 identify the signature that is entered on the dates of 11 July, 13 July,
4 15 July, 18 July, and 24 July. To my eyes they all look like they were
5 made by the same person, do you recognise that signature, sir?
6 A. I do. I do.
7 Q. Whose signature is that, sir?
8 A. Milo
9 station together with Stevo Gajic.
10 Q. You referred to him as a handler. Can you just describe what
11 that means, sir, for us?
12 A. When a driver goes to the gas station they start fueling his
14 Q. Am I correct that this Mr. Nikolic was basically the guy at the
15 gas station at Karakaj, at the brigade station that filled up the gas for
16 the brigade?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, if we look to our left on this document, the way we have
19 this in our electronic version, it looks like this is all sort of one
20 page, but if we look on the left-hand side, is it the case that that is
21 actually the back of the document, the last page of the document because
22 this is folded in the middle; is that correct, sir?
23 A. Precisely.
24 Q. And if we look at the big column in the middle, if we could
25 scroll up just a little bit, please. Little bit more. Little bit more.
1 Perfect. Thank you. We see that that big column is headed -- it's been
2 translated as "condition", that refers to the condition of the vehicle
3 and we spoke about that a little earlier, did we not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it is at this point that somebody from your unit has to sign
6 off on the condition of the vehicle; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, if we look at this log and we look at the entry for
9 July 11th and 12th, 14th and 15th, 18th and 19th, 21st and the 24th,
10 those signatures all look the same to my layperson's eye. Do you
11 recognise the signatures on those entries?
12 A. It is my signature.
13 Q. Now, if we may go to the next page, please. Do you see the
14 column 20 to the far right, the user's signature?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you see your signature there in that column?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, I see that on the computer the legibility is pretty poor.
19 I'm going to hand you the actual original of the log. I'd be happy to
20 give my friends an opportunity to look at it as well, but if you could
21 just read the dates as best as you can for the entries that bear your
22 signature, please, into the record. Just so we can be sure, because I
23 don't think you will be able to see the dates on e-court.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if possible, could we
1 have the document placed on the ELMO so that we can all follow the dates
2 and then we can keep on discussing this document. We really can't see
3 that in the electronic version of the document.
4 MR. THAYER: Absolutely, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We can do that.
6 MR. THAYER: I think that's a good idea.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course. Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. Sir, you are going to have to look at the -- I'm sorry, the
10 original on the ELMO there. And again, just as quickly as you can just
11 read the dates for the entries that bear your signature.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before, can -- I'm sure it's not my
13 eyesight. Can we have a better focusing on the document, please. Yes,
14 that's perfect. Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My signature is at the entries of
16 the 11th, the 13th, the 17th, the 15th, the 18th -- is it the 18th? Yes.
17 The 19th, the 21st, and the 24th.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. We are done with that document. Now,
20 sir, I want to turn your attention to the document that you testified
21 about involving a Mr. Gotovac. Do you remember the vehicle work log for
22 the Volkswagen van?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it fair to say that from the day that you signed off on that
25 document, you did not see it again until it was shown to you by the
1 Nikolic Defence team?
2 A. It may well be so that I didn't see it in the meantime. I don't
3 remember viewing it much. As far as I can see, my signature is there
4 only for the 14th, and I seem to be the one who sent him to the lines.
5 Q. Now, I think you said in your statement that on that day you
6 issued a lot of vehicle work orders?
7 A. Yes, just like any other day.
8 Q. Just like any other day during the war, sir; correct?
9 A. Yes. It was a regular day.
10 Q. And out of all the orders that you signed off on, out of all the
11 routes that you signed off on and your time in the transportation
12 section, you had no reason to see, let alone remember, this log after you
13 issued it on the 14th of July; correct?
14 A. I didn't see it. There were many orders, things kept developing
15 and we were under a lot of burden.
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if we may jump into private session
17 very briefly, please.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means. Let's go into private session for a
19 short while, please. We are in private session.
20 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Now, sir, I want to show you another document.
20 MR. THAYER: If we could have 65 ter 295 again, please. P00295.
21 And if I've got the numbers right, we are at page 541 of the English and
22 page 539 of the B/C/S.
23 Q. And with Madam Usher's assistance, I'm going to hand you the
24 original of this document, sir, because I think it will be much easier
25 for you to read if you are looking at the original.
1 Sir, we are looking at another vehicle work log. This one for a
2 Rovokopac and that's a backhoe excavator; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And we can see that there's information that has been typed in,
5 and I think you'll agree with me if you're looking at the original that
6 you can see that has been done with a typewriter or some sort of
7 typewriting device as opposed to --
8 A. It was typewritten, yes.
9 MR. THAYER: For those of us who are trying to follow along in
10 e-court, there is a mistake in terms of the document that's being shown.
11 We are looking for the ERN that ends in 5083, please. That's 539 in
13 Q. Now, sir, you'll agree with me that the information that's typed
14 in with respect to the piece of equipment and the operators is separate
15 from the handwriting that you see in the blue ink on the bottom half of
16 the document; correct? The top is typewritten, the bottom is handwritten
17 in ink?
18 MR. THAYER: It might help the visibility if we take the document
19 out of the plastic, please, on the ELMO. Thank you, Madam Usher.
20 Q. You'll agree with me that is Mr. Pantic's signature in the lower
21 right-hand corner under number 2 or next to number 2? Now -- forgive me,
23 A. No, that is my signature.
24 Q. It wasn't a trick question. I tricked myself. Whose signature
25 is that, sir?
1 A. Mine.
2 Q. Okay. And can you read the date of the single entry that is
3 handwritten there in ink?
4 A. The 14th of July, 1995.
5 MR. THAYER: If we could turn the document over, please. That
6 will be the next page in B/C/S, please, as well as the English
8 Q. Can you read that top line, sir?
9 A. Base, Orahovac and back.
10 Q. That's for trench digging. And if we go down to the bottom of
11 the page, sir?
12 A. Yes, digging trenches.
13 Q. And if we go down to the bottom of the page, it says 6 hours of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, having had a chance to look at this document, you recalled a
17 lot about the log that involved Mr. Gotovac and that trip. Can you tell
18 the Trial Chamber what this backhoe/excavator was being used for in
19 Orahovac for those six hours that are indicated?
20 A. As you can see from the work order, it was the traffic section
21 and the rear brigade that sent the work order. The rest of the entries
22 was done outside the traffic section. Even the fuel was not taken from
23 the gas station.
24 Q. Now, if you flip the document over, sir, to the first page or the
25 front page, there's an operator by the name of Cvijetin Ristanovic. Do
1 you know that person, sir?
2 A. It sounds familiar. The name strikes me as familiar, but I'm
3 sure I don't know what he looks like.
4 Q. Well, the Trial Chamber has heard evidence from Mr. Ristanovic as
5 well as survivors of a mass execution in the Orahovac area. And
6 Mr. Ristanovic testified that he used that backhoe excavator to dig a
7 mass grave while the executions were still going on in front of him. Do
8 you know anything about that, sir?
9 A. No, not at all.
10 Q. Okay. We are done with that document, thank you. Now, I just
11 want to show you a couple of more documents. And ask you about, again,
12 these ten days or so following the fall of Srebrenica on 11 July. Do you
13 recall following the fall of Srebrenica that there were urgent requests
14 coming to the brigade from the battalions for extra ammunition, fuel,
15 shells, artillery rounds?
16 A. It was a long time ago, I really don't remember. I didn't issue
17 shells or ammunition. I only had to do with vehicles. I really can't
18 remember what the activities undertaken were. It was quite sometime ago.
19 Q. Okay. Well, you spent your time during this period of time and
20 prior to the fall of Srebrenica in the command, in the logistics unit.
21 Is there anything about that ten days to two weeks after the fall of
22 Srebrenica that sticks out in your mind in terms of what was going on in
23 the Zvornik Brigade's area of responsibility?
24 A. I remember the things known by everybody. I remember that people
25 were talking about the child the next day or the day after that. Then I
1 also heard that Pilica was being mentioned, Orahovac, Petkovci and
2 Rocevic. That was the rumours. I didn't -- I wasn't present at any of
3 these locations, therefore, I can't tell you anything more than that.
4 Q. Well, let's use, say, the 14th of July as a starting point. You
5 talked about that date. Can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately how
6 soon after that date you started hearing rumours, for example, about the
7 child that you just referred to? How soon did you start hearing rumours
8 about the child?
9 A. Probably the next day or in the next couple of days. I can't
10 remember exactly. There was so much going on that I truly can't say.
11 Q. And you just mentioned several locations, Pilica, Orahovac,
12 Petkovci, and Rocevic, what were the rumours that you were hearing, sir?
13 A. Well, the rumour had it that people were being killed there,
14 something like that. I really don't know. I wasn't there. There were
15 stories going around and that's it.
16 Q. And again, using the 14th of July as a benchmark date, how soon
17 after that date did you start hearing these rumours about Pilica and
18 Rocevic and Petkovci and Orahovac?
19 A. I really can't recall.
20 Q. Well, was it within a matter of days?
21 A. It was a really long time ago. Probably even today you can still
22 hear stories going around.
23 Q. Well, can you tell the Trial Chamber what your best recollection
24 is then, sir, of when you started hearing these rumours about executions
25 at these locations that you just mentioned?
1 A. I'm telling you that I cannot remember. Even if I tried my best,
2 I still wouldn't be able to remember.
3 Q. Not even whether it was a month, six months, or a year?
4 A. Not a year later but shorter than that. I don't know how much
5 shorter though.
6 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter 295 if it's still up. And we'll
7 be looking at page 583 of the English and page 581 of the B/C/S.
8 Q. You see the document in front of you, sir, and can you read it?
9 Is it legible to you?
10 A. Yes, I can.
11 Q. As you can see, it's a vehicle work log for a TAM 130. It's
12 driven by or operated by Milenko Tomic. Do you know Milenko Tomic, sir?
13 A. Yes. He was a driver in the logistics brigade.
14 Q. And if we look to the left of the document, again under the
15 conditions, do you see Mr. Pantic's signature on the 17th?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And if we go to the next page in e-court, please. If we look at
18 that first line, you see the date of 17 July 1995, sir?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And the route is Zvornik-Pilica-Kula-Pilica-Zvornik, do you see
21 that, sir?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. If we go all the way to column 20, do you see Mr. Pantic's
24 signature again, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Next to his name is written "Slavko," do you see that, sir?
2 A. Yes, I do. It probably is Slavko.
3 Q. Do you know who that refers to?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And right below Mr. Pantic's signature, we have your signature
6 for three entries in a row, is that correct, in column 20?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then following that we've got Mr. Pantic's signature for
9 another three lines?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And this is for a period of approximately ten days from the 17th
12 through the 27th, and this indicates, does it not, that you and
13 Mr. Pantic are in the command together, working interchangeably; correct?
14 A. Yes. We did our job in that time period, that's correct.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Tomic testified before this Trial Chamber that
16 Mr. Pantic personally ordered him to go to Pilica where he used this TAM
17 130 to transport corpses from the Pilica Dom to the Branjevo farm. And
18 the Trial Chamber has also heard testimony from another soldier who had
19 to load those corpses on to that truck and then unload them at the
20 Branjevo farm.
21 You referred a few moments ago to hearing rumours about
22 executions at Pilica.
23 A. Yes, I heard.
24 Q. Does this help you determine when you knew that there were
25 executions going on at Pilica, sir? Does this document help you in any
2 A. No, I don't think so. Not at all.
3 Q. Do you know anything, sir, about a reburial operation in the fall
4 of 1995, to dig up corpses and redistribute them among smaller scattered
5 mass graves? Do you know anything about that operation or the logistical
6 needs that it required from the brigade?
7 A. Absolutely nothing.
8 MR. THAYER: If I may have a moment, Mr. President.
9 [Prosecution confers]
10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, is there redirect?
12 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Just two or three questions,
13 Your Honour. Thank you.
14 Re-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
15 Q. Mr. Sakotic, as you were answering my questions and the questions
16 put to you by my colleague about the issuing and receiving orders, when
17 you received an order from the duty operations officer, was that the
18 person who only relayed the order to you from the assistant commander for
20 A. Well, he probably consulted somebody as he issued the orders, but
21 more or less based on logic --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Just to make sure the record is accurate. I don't
24 think there was any testimony, nor did I refer to a duty operations
25 officer, but you know, I stand to be corrected if there is a citation
1 somewhere. Maybe it's a translation issue.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we check that or --
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I may have, Your Honours -- I do
4 believe my learned colleague is right, but let me move on to another
5 topic, and I do apologise.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, then.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. When you spoke about this word, loko, local drive, you said they
9 were about 2 or 3 kilometres long. My question to you is how far is
10 Orahovac from Zvornik?
11 A. 7 to 9 kilometres, closer to 9, I think. I can't really remember
12 for some reason, but it's a separate trip. A new trip. It's not
13 considered as a local trip.
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private
15 session for my next question, Your Honours, to avoid --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go into private session, please. We are in
17 private session, Ms. Nikolic.
18 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, I see you conferring with Mr. Bourgon.
14 Have you finished with your redirect or not?
15 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So unless any of my colleagues wish to
17 put questions. Mr. Sakotic, we've come to the end of your testimony.
18 Our staff will assist you and arrange for your return back home. On
19 behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over and
20 given testimony. And on behalf of everyone I wish you a safe journey
21 back home.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, documents?
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the list
1 has been handed in.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: One is the witness statement that, basically, we
3 already know there's no objection to.
4 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other one is the vehicle log with markings
6 done by the witness. Any objection?
7 MR. THAYER: No objection, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: No objection from the other Defence teams either.
9 So these two documents.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic, I think we can work out like that.
12 I'm being reminded by our staff that the arrangement was that you would
13 provide two versions of the statement of this witness. One of which
14 would have the name of a particular witness redacted. What you have used
15 today is the unredacted copy or version, which means that we need to
16 preserve it under seal; correct?
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, sir. Thank you
18 very much for this intervention, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... we are keeping
20 it under seal. Both documents are therefore admitted. The first one of
21 which will be under seal.
22 Mr. Thayer?
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we would tender just one document,
24 that was 65 ter 3742, the page from the brigade telephone book.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection?
1 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So that document is also admitted. And
3 we can proceed to our next witness.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to interview this witness first before we
7 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, if with your or with the
8 Trial Chamber's permission, I would like to address the Trial Chamber
9 before the witness comes in.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Let's go into closed session, I
12 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into closed session, please. There are no
14 people in the gallery. Please don't admit anyone in the gallery for the
15 time being, that avoids us having to put down curtains and whatever.
16 [Closed session]
11 Pages 25806-25811 redacted. Closed session.
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, we can leave. 25 minutes.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 6.19 p.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. If you want to go in
24 closed session, we'll go in closed session.
25 MR. BOURGON: I don't think it is required to go into private
1 session, however, I do would like to make some submissions regarding the
2 request for protective measures with the leave of the Trial Chamber.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but what I meant was whether you prefer to
4 make these submissions in open session or in closed session.
5 MR. BOURGON: I believe to be on the safe side it should be in
6 private session, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine. Then let's go into private or closed
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 25814-25815 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are back in open session. Thank you for your
22 submissions as you would have imagined, during the break we did have a
23 thorough discussion ourselves on this, and subject to what we were
24 anticipating to hear from you as further submissions, which we've just
25 heard now, we reserved our judgement until later. We are actually in
1 this situation where the majority are not in favour of granting the
2 protective measures sought by this witness or on behalf of this witness.
3 However, since this is not a unanimous decision, we thought of
4 coming back to you with the same suggestion that we made in the past on a
5 few occasions when we denied protective measures, namely, that we appeal
6 to you to reach some kind of an agreement. For example, that you will
7 not refer to him by his name, to avoid putting questions indicating where
8 he lives, where he works, and such like arrangements. Even on one
9 occasion, I think we had an arrangement whereby it was agreed that the
10 cameraman will not focus on his face. However, we are not in a position
11 to grant the protective measures that you requested, Ms. Nikolic and
12 Mr. Bourgon. I believe that there are no sufficient grounds for granting
13 them and it would constitute an undesirable precedent if we did.
14 Do you wish to approach each other and have a word?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll certainly agree not to mention his name and
16 have the audio folks agree that they do not show his face. I don't have
17 a problem with that.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I -- with the Court's
20 permission, I would like to obtain a short recess so I can go and meet
21 with the witness. That being said, Mr. President, we are in an
22 unprecedented situation. When the Court has asked questions before to a
23 witness on the protective measures, to my recollection, that was done
24 before the witness took the oath. This witness has taken the oath, so I
25 would like the permission of the Court to go and meet with the witness
1 and discuss with him and come back before the Trial Chamber.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You discuss this and only this with him,
4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We have five minutes break or as soon as you finish
6 please, you'll let us know. We'll be outside.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 --- Break taken at 6.31 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.46 p.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
11 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Or we redact, we just redact. Okay. Do you want
21 private session?
22 MR. BOURGON: I'll say it in private session simply to tell you,
23 Mr. President --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. We go into private session.
25 MR. BOURGON: Just for this one bit.
1 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Now for the record, the
11 witness has been withdrawn and Mr. Bourgon gave an explanation why. What
12 is next. We have got 10 minutes. I don't suppose we have another
13 witness here present today?
14 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, we are ready to proceed with another
15 witness as we will be during all of our Defence case as much as we can
16 be. The witness is here, he can take his oath now, and we can proceed
17 with his testimony in the morning.
18 Mr. President, I take this opportunity if I can obtain a
19 confirmation that the Trial Chamber will be issuing a written decision,
20 is that my understanding or that's what I thought I understood from what
21 you said earlier.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We had no intention of issuing a written decision,
24 MR. BOURGON: Then it's my mistake, Mr. President. We will be
25 asking for certification of the decision.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: If you insist on one, we will provide you with one.
2 MR. BOURGON: No, we don't insist at all. I thought that was my
3 understanding and it's my --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not able to hear what the
5 speakers are saying because of the background noise.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay so let's repeat because there was
7 too much background noise.
8 MR. BOURGON: Sorry, Mr. President. I was under the impression
9 that the Trial Chamber had said that it would issue a judgement later,
10 but I obviously made a mistake so I apologise. I simply say that we
11 will, of course, be applying for certification of the Trial Chamber's
12 decision in order to get a criteria for the Appeals Chamber. Thank you,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, if he is going to appeal this kind of thing
16 and having put this explanation on the record, I have an alternative
17 explanation of why this person isn't testifying as a possibility as well.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's --
19 MR. BOURGON: What does that have to do with it, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, Mr. Bourgon. I think at this stage it's all
21 over. So let's leave it at that and, I mean, his right to seek
22 certification is not subject to -- you can reply to that when he files
23 the appropriate motion.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I wasn't going to be
25 objecting to his right to seek certification. He offered the reasons why
1 this person couldn't be here based on his discussion with him, so that is
2 going to be part of the appellate record. I could put in the
3 Prosecution's view of that, but given that it's late, I think I'll just
4 sit down.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
6 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I'm sorry. I have to reply to this.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We don't want to hear any more on this,
8 Mr. Bourgon. If you want to file a motion for --
9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: -- you file it and then it will take its course.
11 If you want a written decision, we will provide you with one.
12 Is he here or not?
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Our decision is to leave it at that and adjourn.
15 We'll administer the oath to him tomorrow in the afternoon when we
16 reconvene. Thank you.
17 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. We'll be ready to
18 proceed tomorrow afternoon.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of
21 September, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.