1 Tuesday, 23 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam --
7 [French on English channel]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. All the accused are present
11 the. From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic,
12 Mr. Krgovic, and Mr. Haynes. Prosecution is composition team as
13 yesterday, Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer. Witness is already present. We
14 finished the cross-examination yesterday.
15 Mr. Bourgon, you had indicated you have redirect. Please go
17 MR. BOURGON: Good morning to you, Mr. Kostic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Judges.
20 Good morning, colleagues.
21 WITNESS: STEVO KOSTIC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Re-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
24 Q. And good morning, Mr. Kostic.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I don't have too many questions for you this morning, but
2 immediately I will ask my colleague from the Prosecution to hand over to
3 you the original of Exhibit P354, which is the attendance roster for the
4 Military Police Company of July 1995.
5 MR. BOURGON: If we can have it in e-court at the same time,
6 please. That's P354, and I'd like the last page of this document which
7 is 6615.
8 Q. Sir, if you can look at the last page of this document, I think
9 it's on the reverse side on 6615, where you have some abbreviations that
10 you included on this document. You see this, sir?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Yesterday, at page 54, line 17 to 20, my colleague asked you
13 about the abbreviation "BO" used in the MP attendance roster for July.
14 And you stated that this referred to persons on sick leave, and you also
15 used the example of Dragan Asceric at line 79.
16 My question is the following: To your knowledge, the military
17 policemen who were sent to Orahovac that night, were they fit for combat?
18 In other words, were they injured in any way or sick in any way?
19 A. They were fit. None of them were either sick or wounded.
20 Q. To your knowledge, had these military policemen that night before
21 Jasikovac arrived, had they received any order to remain at Standard, or
22 did they just happen to be there because their work day was over or their
23 duties were over for the day?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
25 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
2 MR. THAYER: Just some clarification as to when we are talking
3 about for this question. There's no time frame.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, I'm sure will clarify that.
5 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. My questions refer to
6 that night and that night, I thought that was clear, that this referred
7 to the night they went to Orahovac, but I will make my questions more
9 Q. So, sir, the night that the military policemen were sent to
10 Orahovac by Jasikovac, according to your testimony, before Jasikovac
11 arrived, had the military policemen received any order to remain at
12 Standard, or did they just happen to be there because their work day was
14 A. The military police was carrying out their duties at Standard,
15 they all had their daily assignments, and that is why they remained at
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 Looking at the attendance roster that is before you, can you tell
19 me if the name of Drago Nikolic appears on this roster.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can you tell me why this is so?
22 A. Drago Nikolic was not a member of the Military Police Company.
23 He was not on our register.
24 Q. And what about the name of your commander Jasikovac, does it
25 appear on the roster; and if so, where?
1 A. Yes, it does, under number 1, as the commander.
2 Q. At page 65 of the transcript yesterday, lines 4 to 6, you stated
3 the following: "I would not have liked to have gone anyway because in
4 Baljkovica, you could see for yourself the list how many wounded and how
5 many were killed, including my brother Dragan."
6 Do you recall saying this?
7 A. My brother Aco, not Dragan.
8 Q. Now, also at page 60, lines 9 to 12, the following questions was
9 put to you by my colleague, and he was then quoting from the transcript
10 of your January 2006 interview. So what I'm about to read is something
11 that was in your interview.
12 My colleague said, page 65: "And the question was put to you:
13 'How do you know people were not willing to go?'
14 "And your answer was: 'One could see. One could see on their
15 faces; and for me, it was an extremely great pleasure to hear that I
16 should not go.'"
17 Based on this answer, my question is the following: the fact
18 that you could see on the faces of the MPs that they were not willing to
19 go in Orahovac, did that have anything to do with the executions that we
20 now know later took place in that area.
21 A. No. Nobody knew about the executions quite simply. People would
22 have preferred not to have gone. The very thought of guarding prisoners;
23 and as far as the executions were concerned, I don't think that they knew
24 anything about this, and that applies to all military policemen.
25 Q. And, sir, the fact that you, as you mentioned, that it was an
1 extremely great pleasure to hear that you would not go, did that have
2 anything to do with the executions that we now know happened later in
3 this area?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And, sir, to the best of your recollection, were the members of
6 the Military Police Company ever glad and eager to go in the field where
7 combat was taking place or combat could take place?
8 A. Well, nobody wants to or likes to go where there was shooting.
9 If they had to go, they did go, but not because they wished to do so,
10 because lots of people died in the shootings.
11 Q. And, sir, the military policemen who were sent to Orahovac, to
12 your knowledge, were they told anything other than the fact that they
13 were going to secure prisoners?
14 A. Commander Jasikovac had told us that we were going to guard the
15 POWs, and that's all. Nothing else was said.
16 Q. Sir, at page 58, lines 5 to 7, my colleague asked you this
17 question about the lawyer Cedo Jovic, and I quote: "When they returned
18 from Orahovac, one of them told you that they no longer had their rifles.
19 Do you remember that?"
20 Your answer, confirming that they no longer had their rifles with
21 them and that they told you, is at page 58, lines 8 to 11.
22 My question today is the following: Did -- when you had this
23 conversation with Goran Bogdanovic and Cedo Jovic, did they mention to
24 you that their weapons had been taken away by members of the army who
25 were not from the Zvornik Brigade?
1 A. I don't remember what they told me about who had taken their
2 weapons. All I know is that they came and said that they had their
3 rifles no longer with them and that somebody had taken them from them. I
4 don't know who that somebody was.
5 Q. Sir, at page 58, lines 14, right up to page -- it's 68, sorry,
6 68, lines 14 to 76, lines 29, my colleague went on to quote some
7 questions and answers from your interview, but he missed some lines that
8 I would like to read to you. So I will now read to you your interview,
9 and I will start at page 75, line 14.
10 Line 14 reads as follows: "Did you speak with Cedo and
11 Bogdanovic? What was going on in Orahovac? "
12 Your answer was: "They don't like to speak about it."
13 Then my colleague missed a part where you said: "They did not
14 comment anything about it simply ..." -- sorry: "They did comment
15 anything about it simply."
16 Then at lines 21: "Did you hear what happened in Orahovac?"
17 Your answer: "Everybody knows. Everybody knows that they
18 executed these people there.
19 Investigator: "Okay."
20 Your answer: "That's not an issue."
21 Investigator: "When did you find out that people were executed
23 The Interpreter asked: "When?"
24 And your answer was: "After the execution, after that."
25 Investigator asked you: "How long after that."
1 And your answer was: "I don't know. Probably that same evening.
2 That was then said, but I don't know who said it."
3 The investigator went on to ask you, but my colleague did not
4 quote this part of your interview: "But when did people came back from
5 Orahovac? They were speaking about what happened over there, how it
7 And you said: "Which people, our people? "
8 The investigator said: "Yeah, I mean the military police."
9 Your answer, always on the part that is not quoted by my
10 colleague: "I don't know, really. Believe me, I don't know. I didn't
11 like to comment it at all, and I didn't like to talk about it."
12 The investigator went on to say: "Yes, I understand. But you
13 said that you learned that the people were executed the same day."
14 And your answer was: "Yes, but I don't know how and who did it,
15 and they didn't talk about it."
16 Based on what I just read to you from your interview, do you
17 stand by what you said back then completed as I just read it to you?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, so the record is clear, if -- and we
20 can, I think, deal with this one of two ways, either at the tendering
21 time offer this entire section of the interview so that the Court can see
22 exactly how the questioning went. Otherwise, I'd ask my friend to
23 continue reading the question and answer so that the Court can see where
24 it overlaps with the very questions that I asked the witness. Otherwise,
25 the Court will not have a fair view of how this series of questions went,
1 since my friend is not putting the pages or so forth and the lines. But
2 I think the Court should see the entire set of questions and how my
3 questioning and the questioning that my friend is putting to the witness
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
6 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, my colleague had the opportunity to
7 read all the questions during his cross-examination, and I'm taking this
8 opportunity to make corrections and I'm indicating where in the interview
9 there were thing that is were missed. In any event, if my colleague
10 wants to ask for the interview of the witness to be included in the
11 record for impeachment purposes, then I will have no objections to that,
12 because he asked so many questions about. I think it will be interesting
13 for the Judges to see exactly everything the witness said during his
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's proceed and we'll
16 determine this issue later on.
17 Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. BOURGON:
19 Q. So, sir, what I read this morning, does that correspond to what
20 you remember telling the Prosecution at the time?
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. And my question is: To the best of your recollection, when is
23 the first time you heard information or rumours about executions taking
24 place in Orahovac?
25 A. I think the following day, but I really have no idea when I heard
1 about it. I think it was the next day.
2 Q. Thank you. My colleague went on to ask you a very long question,
3 which can be found in the transcript at page 76 starting at line 16,
4 until page 79 at line 6, so about a three-page question.
5 And when he asked this question to you, he quoted from your
6 interview, and he read bits and pieces from pages 54, 55, 78, 84, 86,
7 and 89.
8 My question to you is the following to try to make the record
9 clear: To the best of your recollection, did you know at the time that
10 the Military Police Company went to Rocevic on 15 July as suggested by
11 the Prosecution?
12 A. No. I didn't know at all that they were at Rocevic.
13 Q. And do you recall using, when writing this attendance roster that
14 you have before you, using the letter "R" for Romeo?
15 A. I don't recall at all.
16 Q. If we go back to the last page of this document at the end, where
17 you did include some abbreviations, was the letter "R" ever included in
18 this list of abbreviations?
19 A. I can't see anything.
20 Q. Now, if we look at the first page of this document that you have
21 before you, on the top should read "6610," my colleague draw your
22 attention to the columns of the 14th and the 15th; and he asked you
23 whether you had made a whole bunch of changes to the column of the 14th
24 and to the column of the 15th.
25 My question is: If there are changes in these columns, as you
1 testified about, did you make other changes to this form throughout the
2 month of July?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. For example, if we look at line 12, we see a bunch of Ts that
5 seem to be -- or to have been written over crosses in a number of places.
6 Are these change that is you made to this form?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if we would look at other records or other attendance records
9 for other months for the Military Police Company, would we also see some
10 change that you made regularly?
11 A. Yes. Often, when it was necessary or when there were any changes
12 to daily orders, if there was any action to be carried out, people would
13 be re-assigned to the field. This probably happened during other months
14 as well, but I don't have these papers in front of me.
15 Q. Now, when you were questioned about Orahovac by the investigators
16 back in 2006, in your interview you mentioned some names that you did
17 remember were sent to Orahovac that night. Do you remember the names
18 that you knew immediately when the questions was put to you that had been
19 to Orahovac that night?
20 A. As I said, I remember Commander Jasikovac having left, as well as
21 Nada Stojanovic, Cedo Jovic, and Goran Bogdanovic. I can remember those
22 four people and not any others. After the investigator showed me the
23 roster for the MP company, then I realized that there were some other
24 people who had left as well, and they were mentioned yesterday by the
25 Prosecutor. But even as I speak here today, I still don't remember them
1 having left, but their names appear on the list.
2 Q. And, sir, the four names that you did mention at the beginning,
3 for example, you said Bogdanovic and Jovic, were these persons friends of
4 yours at the time, or how close were you to these people?
5 A. I was close with them then and now as well.
6 Q. And did you have any hesitation to tell the investigators that
7 you remembered these people going to Orahovac on that night, despite the
8 fact that they are your friends?
9 A. No. I remember them first, and I couldn't remember the rest. I
10 mentioned a few of my best friends that were up there, proving that I
11 wasn't trying to cover up for anyone who is in Orahovac.
12 Q. Sir, between July 1995, between exactly those events and today,
13 did you hear any rumours that Jasikovac and some military policemen from
14 the company actually went to Rocevic? Did you hear any rumours about
15 that since July 1995?
16 A. Yeah. I didn't discuss Rocevic with anyone; and even today, I
17 don't know whether they were there or not. As I said yesterday, they may
18 have left Orahovac to go to Rocevic, but I wasn't notified and I wasn't
19 told by anyone later.
20 Q. And did you hear stories about that, that you could not confirm?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. Sir, yesterday, on page 83, my colleague made reference to page 7
23 of your interview; and on that interview, on that page, you said that the
24 military company had a warehouse where you kept ammunition and weapons
25 and that you were in charge of that. So I will quote what you said
1 yesterday, at lines 10 to 16 of page 83.
2 Answer: "When the military policemen went to Orahovac, they had
3 their rifles. Each policemen had been issued with an automatic rifle and
4 each rifle had its serial number. They had rifles and ammunition. We
5 did not issue any additional ammo at that time. If needed, it was myself
6 who went to the logistics department to take ammunition, if we needed it,
7 for the unit. The same goes for any food. I would take those and issue
8 them to the soldiers."
9 Sir, based on what you stated, at lines 10 to 16, I would like to
10 know, if you recall of course, when the military policemen went to
11 Orahovac, did you issue them ammunition in addition to what each member
12 normally carried with his weapon?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. Did you issue any additional ammunition to the Military Police
15 Company in Orahovac during the next 24 hours?
16 A. No, I did not issue any.
17 Q. Did you receive a request to send food to Orahovac, or did you
18 send actually food to Orahovac during the next 24 hours for the Military
19 Police Company?
20 A. Trust me when I say that I don't remember whether I had some food
21 issued to me so that I could pass it on. I really can't recall.
22 Q. And at page 83, lines 16 to 18, that's just the part that
23 follows, you stated that whether or not food was issued or requested for
24 the prisoners of war, you don't know because this was not part of your
25 duties. Sorry. I'm reading my question now and not from the transcript.
1 So to avoid any objection, I will read exactly what you said.
2 Lines 16 to 18 and that is page 83: "As for the food for the
3 prisoners, I have no idea about that. I could not be issued any food for
4 prisoners. I could only receive food for the MP members."
5 Now, my question was: If there was or was not food issued to the
6 prisoners or arrangements made for them to have food, would you be aware
7 of that.
8 A. Well, I would not have probably because it was the logistics that
9 delivered food. I have no idea whether I would have been notified or
10 not. If they did issue some food, they probably would have sent that on
11 some trucks to Orahovac; therefore, I really don't know.
12 Q. Sir, on page 84, lines 3 to 6, my colleague raised the issue of
13 dates, and he suggested that you cannot tell what were the exact dates of
14 the days you testified about with precision.
15 So I have a few questions regarding dates. The first one being:
16 Do you remember the day that you saw the buses driving in front of
17 Standard with the prisoners, as you said yesterday?
18 A. Do I remember the day?
19 Q. If you remember how many days you saw buses going in front of
20 Standard with prisoners? Only one day or more than one day?
21 A. It was only one day that I saw them passing by.
22 Q. And do you recall that it is the night before that you saw the
23 buses that the MPs went to Orahovac?
24 A. That was the day when the buses passed by.
25 Q. And that night that you were assigned on duty at the Karakaj
1 bridge, is that the same night that you went -- that the MPs went to
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And the next day you remember that it's the next day that you
5 relieved by Bovo Nikovic, as you said yesterday?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I've let it slide, but we are really
8 leading, and it's asked and answered on direct.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
10 MR. BOURGON: I don't believe so, Mr. President. I think that
11 it's important for the witness to put the events in sequence, so that he
12 knows about the dates.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's an intermediate question leading to
14 another, okay, go ahead; but please try to avoid being repetitive either
15 on your side or on the witness's side.
16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Will do.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: And it is direct, of course. I mean, it's a very
18 leading question, but I take it that it's an intermediate question.
19 MR. BOURGON:
20 Q. The day that -- you testified yesterday, sir, that both you and
21 Jeremic were at Standard. This is the same day that you saw the buses --
22 or is it the same day that you saw the buses with prisoners?
23 A. I saw the buses on that one day. There were no other days that
24 the buses were passing by.
25 Q. And is that the day that you were alone with Jeremic in Standard?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
2 MR. THAYER: Again, Mr. President, we went over this in the
3 direct examination, my friend went through a very careful sequence of
4 events, and now he is leading the witness repeatedly.
5 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President, I'm leading, but it's a
6 result of the cross-examination where he tried to mix the witness up with
7 the events. So I'm certainly allowed to ask the witness whether the day
8 he saw the buses is the day that he was alone with Jeremic at Standard.
9 There's absolutely nothing wrong with that question, Mr. President.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
12 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Mr. President. I asked this witness
13 one question on that issue because it was clear to me that there were no
14 dates elicited on purpose during direct. I did not go through any
15 sequence of events with this witness, so the insinuation there's any
16 mixing up is erroneous. And my friend cannot try to lead this witness on
17 what are not intermediate issues, but the very issues he is trying to
18 establish. It's improper.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
20 We've discussed this amongst ourselves and the conclusion we
21 arrive at is that, like before, we consider this both leading -- both
22 leading and a question that has been asked and answered already. But
23 unlike previously, this time we are not going to allow it. So let's
25 If you want to go straight to where you are heading, go straight
1 there, Mr. Bourgon. I mean, avoid the roundabout, if you can.
2 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Sir, if you look at the roster in front of you and if you look at
4 the dates -- can you look at the attendance roster before you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What night were the military police sent to Orahovac?
7 A. I didn't understand the question.
8 Q. By looking at the register in front of you, that's the attendance
9 log, my questions -- my colleague put questions to you yesterday about
10 changes being made. Can you tell us what is the date of the night that
11 the military policemen were sent to Orahovac?
12 A. The date is the 14th.
13 Q. Does that correspond to the day they were there or to the night
14 that they were sent?
15 A. It was that day that they were sent to Orahovac.
16 Q. Sir, one last question I have for you concerning a question that
17 was put to you by my colleague: Did you see any unknown civilian walking
18 in Standard Barracks between the gate and the command building on the day
19 you were there with Jeremic?
20 A. No, I didn't see anyone.
21 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
22 MR. BOURGON: I have no further questions.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you Mr. Bourgon.
24 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I've two very brief questions that
1 arise directly from the redirect, if I may.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: What are these questions?
3 MR. BOURGON: Can the witness remove his headphones first,
4 please, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: We can allow him to hear, if you want.
6 But anyway, remove them. It's better.
7 MR. THAYER: I don't know if he is still psychic this morning.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, there are two very brief issues. One
10 is my friend, in trying to clarify the issue with respect to these two
11 lawyers, asked a question that was outside of the area that I was putting
12 that question with respect to the two lawyers for, and I'd just like to
13 address complete the answer that this witness gave in his interview so
14 that we can put that in the appropriate context. It's simply to ask the
15 witness to confirm something he said in this paragraph. It's one page,
16 page 75 of his interview.
17 With respect, my friend asked him a question about who these
18 soldiers were that took the weapons away from Bogdanovic and Jovic, and
19 what he said was that they were not members of the Zvornik Brigade. That
20 is not something I was interested in dealing with; but now that it's
21 arisen, I think it's fair to complete what this witness said, which is:
22 "I think when they were about to be dismissed from the unit that they
23 returned their weapons."
24 That's all I want to ask the witness to confirm, that one answer
25 that he gave, and I think that fairly arises from the redirect.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. The other question?
2 MR. THAYER: The other question has to do with my friend asked
3 this witness about the four MPs that he has said are his close friends
4 and why it was that he very willingly recalled their named. Again, as
5 part of that answer, there's one line that I want to ask him whether he
6 can confirm giving that answer. It is at line 25, page 66 of his
7 interview, where he says: "I think Dragan Jovanovic, he went." Then he
8 says: "I know that Nikolic, Drago's brother, went."
9 And I just want to find out why it is or whether this individual
10 is somebody in the same category that my friend elicited on redirect
11 somebody that was his friend and whether that's why he know that is this
12 person went or if there's another reason why this he knows that this
13 person went. I think that fairly arises from the thrust of the redirect.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
15 MR. BOURGON: I object to both questions, Mr. President. My
16 colleague had every opportunity to ask questions about the interview, and
17 the issues that are raised are not related to what my colleague would
18 like to attempt to do at this point in time.
19 The witness, when he answered my question this morning, said: "I
20 remember those names. "He gave four names. He said: "The others I
21 remember after I saw what the duty roster was given to me." That was
22 very clear. What the witness answered today was very clear, and the
23 Judges will probably most likely have the interview and they can make
24 their own mind as professional judges in terms of seeing if there was
25 anything that was -- that should be asked to the witness.
1 The other question about --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 MR. BOURGON: The first question that my colleague said, once
4 again the answer from the witness was very clear. I would have liked him
5 to say something that he said elsewhere that those people were not from
6 the Zvornik Brigade, but he did not say that. So I think we can leave it
7 at that, Mr. President, and we are just wasting time. Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So our decision, you see we reach our decisions
11 quite fast and unanimously as well. Our decision is not to allow the
12 questions. Main reason, apart from what was stated by Mr. Bourgon, is
13 that we are going to have the document in any case.
14 Plus, the statement of what our attention should be drawn at has
15 already been stated by Mr. Thayer, so there is no need to put the
17 Mr. Kostic, we've come to the end of your journey here. No more
18 questions for you, which means you can leave this courtroom and go back
19 home. You will receive all the assistance you need from our staff.
20 But before you leave the courtroom, I wish to thank you on behalf
21 of the Trial Chamber for having come over, and I also wish you a safe
22 journey back home.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
1 Documents? Mr. Bourgon, I have three -- five documents indicated
2 here, and that includes the ones he has marked during his testimony.
3 MR. BOURGON: All we have, Mr. President, is the pictures that
4 were marked in Court.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
6 MR. BOURGON: And I have the numbers of these documents that were
7 given to me, but we lost the small yellow paper with the IC numbers that
8 were given to us.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry. I have them. If you want to check,
10 it's 3D497, and then IC 3D218, IC 3D219, 220, and 221.
11 All right.
12 MR. BOURGON: Yes. Those are, in fact, the IC numbers,
13 Mr. President. I thank you for your assistance. I lost my small paper
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you object to any of these documents,
16 Mr. Thayer?
17 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyone else for that matter? No objections.
19 They are admitted.
20 Do you have any documents, no, Mr. Thayer?
21 MR. THAYER: We do, Mr. President, just three. I think
22 everything else that we used is already in evidence.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: The interview, I suppose?
24 MR. THAYER: We have the interview, that is 3754; the logistics
25 company attendance roster for July '95, that's 3726; I believe the
1 engineering roster is already in; and then we have the 1st Battalion
2 signal squad attendance roster for July 1995, that's 3760.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: There is something wrong in the transcript at
4 line 25 of page 19. It says I object the engineering roster, but anyway
5 that object is out of place.
6 Any objection, Mr. Bourgon, to these three documents?
7 MR. BOURGON: No objection, Mr. President, other than the fact
8 that I know for the record that all these attendance logs, they should
9 have been in the Prosecution from the get-go.
10 The fact that they bring these witnesses here at this time is
11 completely contrary to the spirit and the object of the rule 65 ter.
12 Thank you Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 No objections from anyone else?
15 These documents are admitted.
16 Let's continue with the next witness.
17 MR. BOURGON: Just to note, Mr. President, in the transcript, it
18 says Mr. Ostojic is speaking, and I would not want to --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I mean, I suggest you avoid that sort of
20 confusion as much as you can.
21 MR. BOURGON: With the size, it shouldn't be too difficult, but
22 it's okay.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this one 3DW-17, Mr. Bourgon?
24 MR. THAYER: 16, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: 16. Okay. Remind me when we come to number 17
1 that I need to tell you something.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, to you, sir. You are Mr. Jeremic,
4 aren't you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I am.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. You are most welcome. I see
7 that you have some legal background which makes it is easier for you and
8 for us, and for everybody for that matter.
9 Before you start giving evidence, you need to make a solemn
10 declaration that you will be testifying the truth. The text is going to
11 be given to you by Madam Usher. Please read it out aloud, and that will
12 be your solemn commitment with us.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 Please make yourself comfortable, take a seat.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
19 You have been here before, haven't you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So you know the procedure. This time it's
22 Mr. Bourgon who - is it Mr. Bourgon or Ms. Nikolic - Mr. Bourgon who will
23 be putting to you questions first. He will then be followed by others on
25 Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 WITNESS: NEBOJSA JEREMIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examination by Mr. Bourgon:
5 Q. Good morning, sir.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. Sir, for the record, allow me to introduce myself. My name is
8 Stephane Bourgon; and along with my colleagues, Ms. Jelena Nikolic and
9 Ms. Marie-Claude Fournie, we represent Drago Nikolic in these
11 Before we begin, I would just like to remind you that if there is
12 a question that you do not understand, please do not hesitate in asking
13 me to say that question over again, so that we are clear as to what is
14 being asked.
15 Sir, can you please state your name for the record.
16 A. Nebojsa Jeremic.
17 Q. Sir, you testified before this Tribunal as a witness for the
18 Prosecution on 24 and 25 April 2007. Do you remember this?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Because you testified before, I only have a few questions for you
21 today, which deals specifically with the day that you were on duty at the
22 gate in front of Standard barracks.
23 My first question is: Do you remember testifying about the time
24 you were on duty at the gate?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. I would like to put a few questions to you which were not put to
2 you at the time, and I will begin with the following: To the best of
3 your recollection, when did your period of duty at the gate begin? When
4 is it that you were first told that you would be on duty?
5 A. As I said last time, I can't recall the exact date, but I do know
6 that it was after Srebrenica had fallen. I don't know whether it was the
7 13th or 14th of July. I can't say that with any degree of certainty, but
8 it was after Srebrenica had fallen; therefore, in mid-July, the 13th,
9 the 14th, the 15th perhaps. I'm not sure about the dates.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone
12 to his right or closer to the one to his left. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MR. BOURGON: The witness said something. I don't know what
16 it is.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, we didn't receive interpretation,
19 MR. BOURGON:
20 Q. Sir, did you add something to your answer?
21 A. I said that I definitely remember being at the gate, and that
22 that was after the fall of Srebrenica, whether it was the 14th, the 13th,
23 but that period anyway.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you remember that in your testimony you
25 mentioned that you saw buses driving in front of Standard Barracks with
1 prisoners in them? Do you recall testifying about that?
2 A. Yes, I do. I testified to these circumstances.
3 Q. And taking this day with the buses as a reference point, when did
4 your period of duty at the gate begin?
5 A. Well, as I just said, I cannot give you the exact date when I was
6 there, but I was there. I started my duty shift in the afternoon; but
7 whether it was on the afternoon of the 13th or the 14th, I don't know. I
8 was at the gate for 24 hours.
9 Q. Sir, of course, I'm not looking for an exact date. I'm just
10 looking the day you saw the buses, did your duty begin that day or did
11 your duty begin another day?
12 A. It was on the previous day that I was at the gate, the previous
13 day, in the afternoon.
14 Q. And who assigned you to be on duty at the gate?
15 A. The MP company commander, Miomir Jasikovac.
16 Q. And was that a regular tour of duty for you?
17 A. No, that was an emergency. I very seldom was posted at the gate.
18 Q. And do you recall what the -- what was happening that -- or the
19 reasons for which you had to be put on duty on that date?
20 A. Yes, I do remember.
21 Q. And what was happening?
22 A. Well, all the MPs were away in the field. I don't know exactly
23 where they were.
24 Q. And do you recall -- you mentioned earlier on that you were on
25 duty for 24 hours. Do you recall who replaced you at the end of this
1 24-hour period?
2 A. Another military policemen replaced me, but I don't remember his
3 name. I know that as soon as they returned from the field, one of the
4 MPs replaced me.
5 Q. And, sir, were you alone on duty that day at the gate?
6 A. Yes, as an MP.
7 Q. And where exactly is the military policeman working from when he
8 is on duty at the gate?
9 A. Well, he is at the gate to the Standard Barracks, quite close to
10 the gate.
11 Q. I would now like, sir, to show you a picture.
12 MR. BOURGON: If I could have in e-court, please, 3D497.
13 Q. Sir, I would like you to look at this picture, and my first
14 question is: Do you recognise the picture?
15 This will appear in front of you. Do you recognise this picture?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Can you describe what it is?
18 A. Well, that's what we called the reception area. That's the
19 entrance to the Standard barracks in Zvornik; and, normally, but not
20 normally, this is where the MPs were on duty.
21 Q. Can you describe what is inside that room?
22 A. Well, I can describe it. On the right-hand side, there was a
23 room where usually a policeman was sitting, there was a telephone there
24 as well, and another policeman was usually standing outside of the
25 reception area. Normally, there were two men to the shift; but when I
1 was on duty, I was alone.
2 Q. Thank you, sir.
3 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, the witness was referring to
4 Exhibit 3D497.
5 And if I can now have in e-court, 3D500, please.
6 Q. Sir, I will show you a new picture, and I would like you to tell
7 us if you recognise this picture. Do you recognise the picture?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Can you tell us what it is?
10 A. This is the gate, an entrance gate to standard. It's a sliding
11 gate, and it's purpose was to serve as a door. And on the left-hand
12 side, I can see a part that served as a barrier that was raised when
13 vehicles entered or exited the compound of Standard. This was a big
14 gate, and this is the gate through which vehicles entered the compound.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. With the assistance of the court usher, I will
16 ask you to make a marking on this picture. You will be given a pen which
17 actually allows you to mark something on the screen in front of you, and
18 I would simply like you to draw a circle where you say there was this, I
19 think you used the words, "barrier that was raised when vehicles entered
20 or exited the compound of Standard."
21 Can you put a circle around that with the pen?
22 A. I remember. This is this part here. This barrier is not there
24 Q. Thank you, sir. The first gate that you said was a sliding gate,
25 can you also put a circle around that, if you see that sliding gate on
1 the picture?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel kindly speak into his microphone
3 to the right. Thank you very much.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you can see it. This is this
5 big gate here.
6 MR. BOURGON:
7 Q. Now, if I can just ask you at the bottom of this picture to put
8 your initials and today's date, which is 23 September 2008, at the bottom
9 of this picture.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. BOURGON: We won't be needing that, so if we can save this
14 Q. Sir, what was the role of the military policeman on duty at the
16 A. Well, the role of the military policeman was as follows: To
17 check both civilian and military vehicles coming in.
18 The military vehicles were passed through by having the barrier
19 raised, and civilian vehicles were also checked, as well as civilians
20 were. They would enter through a smaller gate, the one that you cannot
21 see in this picture.
22 Q. And, sir, did you check all vehicles and persons coming into
23 Standard Barracks?
24 A. I did not check military vehicles at that time, and I knew a lot
25 of members of the Zvornik Brigade, so there was no need for me to check
1 on them. I knew that those were our military vehicles, so I didn't halt
2 them. I just raised the barrier and let them pass through.
3 Q. And what about civilian vehicles, what did you do?
4 A. Well, as for civilian vehicles, they were not allowed to enter
5 the Standard Barracks. I would stop them, and they were allowed to park
6 the vehicles behind this fence. There was a parking area there, and that
7 is where they will leave their vehicles. They were not allowed to enter
8 the compound of the barracks.
9 Q. What about a civilian vehicle that was either driven by or there
10 was a passenger who was a member of the brigade? To use a very easy
11 example, what about if the commander of the brigade came in, in a vehicle
12 that looked civilian, what happened then?
13 A. Well, I would allow the commander to get in. I would raise the
14 barrier and allow him entrance. I would not check on him because I knew
15 who the commander was.
16 Q. And at what point would you determine whether you would stop or
17 not the vehicle when it was a civilian vehicle?
18 A. Let me tell you this : This gate that I see in front of me was
19 only halfway open and the other half was blocked by the barrier. As I
20 would approach the barrier, I would look into the vehicle and act
21 accordingly. If it was the military vehicle, I would let it pass
22 through. If it was a civilian vehicle, I would not let them in, but,
23 rather, direct them to the nearby parking-lot. You can see that right
24 behind this fence, there's a vehicle parked there.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. And what was the normal procedure once you
1 turned back a civilian vehicle? What would that person do then?
2 A. If they wanted to enter the barracks, he would come to me,
3 introduce himself, to say what the purpose of his visit was, and where he
4 wanted to go. I would check their ID to verify their identity; and
5 depending on who they wished to see, I would act accordingly.
6 If this person was going to the command HQ, I would advise the
7 duty operations officer; and if it was, if I may say, a visitor of minor
8 importance looking for a soldier, I would call this soldier by telephone
9 and ask him to come over to the gate and to have their conversation
10 there. That was the usual procedure.
11 If anyone wanted to go to see the commander or any other high
12 ranking officer at the command HQ, I would notify the duty operations
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Would you let at any time an unknown civilian
15 walk in the barracks without an escort?
16 A. Civilians were not allowed to enter the barracks, unknown
17 civilians. In general, civilians had to give their notice of the visit
18 and to leave all their personal details with the military policeman at
19 the gate.
20 Q. And what happened to the civilian after he had checked in with
21 the military police on duty at the gate? What would happen then?
22 A. As I said, depending on who, where they wanted to go, if they
23 were going to the command building, then military policemen would escort
24 him to the point where he wished to go.
25 Q. Sir, I now turn to the morning when you were on duty at the gate.
1 My first question is the following: Do you remember which members of the
2 Military Police Company were present at Standard on that day?
3 A. When I was at the gate, I don't think that there were any members
4 of the MP company there.
5 Q. And, sir, in your testimony, you said that you did not remember,
6 and I quote from page 10445, for my colleague, you said that you "... did
7 not remember seeing any officers who were not from the Zvornik Brigade
8 coming in or going out from Standard Barracks during that day; although,
9 this is possible."
10 Do you remember saying this?
11 A. Yes, I do. I didn't know any other officers other than those
12 from the Zvornik Brigade. I don't remember.
13 Q. And what about civilians, do you recall seeing any civilians
14 arriving at Standard Barracks on that day?
15 A. I don't remember seeing any civilian.
16 Q. Go on, sir. I did not want to interrupt you. Go on.
17 A. Well, all I wanted to say to that was that an emergency situation
18 and there were very few civilians even on the streets, let alone having
19 them come to the barracks.
20 Q. If two civilians dressed in civilian and driving a civilian car
21 had arrived at Standard on that day, would you have seen them?
22 A. Yes, definitely.
23 Q. Were there any other entrances to the barracks?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Sir, in July 1995, did you know who Ratko Vidovic was?
1 A. Yes, I had heard of him.
2 Q. Could you have recognised him in July 1995?
3 A. No, I had never seen him.
4 Q. And, sir, in July 1995, did you know who Vojislav Jekic was?
5 A. I had heard of him, too.
6 Q. And could you have recognised Vojislav Jekic in July of 1995?
7 A. No, I couldn't.
8 Q. Sir, if either or both of these individuals would have arrive at
9 Standard on that day, what would you have done?
10 A. I would deny them entry to Standard. I would have to note down
11 their details, personal details, and ask them where they were going. So
12 their identity had definitely had to be established. I would stop them
13 at the gate and tell them, "Gentlemen, you have to state your name --
14 names and show me your documents and tell me where you were heading."
15 Q. And, sir, do you recall calling the duty officer on that day to
16 announce the arrival of any visitors or civilian visitors that day?
17 A. I don't remember calling the operations duty officer or the duty
18 officer in order to announce the arrival of civilians unknown to me.
19 Q. Sir, were there many vehicles coming in or going out of Standard
20 barracks on that day?
21 A. Well, the usual. Maybe a slightly higher number than on any
22 other day, but I didn't count the vehicles, and I really cannot give you
23 an estimate.
24 Q. Sir, did you see Drago Nikolic arrive at Standard Barracks during
25 that day?
1 A. I don't remember really seeing Drago Nikolic.
2 Q. Sir, after that day that you were on duty at Standard Barracks,
3 what did you do in the days that followed?
4 A. Well, I was replaced by a military policemen who had come back
5 from the field and I resumed my normal duties afterwards, the duties that
6 I discharged at the MP company.
7 Q. Sir, how many times did you meet with members of the Defence team
8 of Drago Nikolic since your testimony in The Hague?
9 A. With the Defence team? Well, they would come to Zvornik, I
10 think, on two or three occasions.
11 Q. Do you recall meeting with me in Zvornik?
12 A. Yes, I do. You came as well. We had coffee together.
13 Q. How many times, do you remember?
14 A. Twice. I think twice.
15 Q. And, sir, did you meet with our investigator Radovan Keslelj?
16 A. Yes, he was there as well.
17 Q. And my colleague just reminded me I missed a question. Do you
18 remember meeting with me in The Hague
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Sir, did anyone from the Defence team of Drago Nikolic ask you to
21 sign a statement?
22 A. No. You didn't ask me to sign any statement.
23 Q. And do you remember what kind of questions either myself or the
24 investigator put to you when we met in Zvornik?
25 A. Well, the questions referred to whether I knew Jekic or Vidovic,
1 and whether they had come to the Standard Barracks while I was on duty.
2 Q. And were you asked any questions about the procedure for the
3 military police on duty at the gate?
4 A. I don't remember. It might have been mentioned.
5 Q. And, sir, did members of the Defence team of Drago Nikolic try to
6 influence your testimony in any way?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I just have one last question for you.
9 MR. BOURGON: I would like to come back to the picture, the first
10 one that we used today, which is 3D497. If we can have this in e-court,
12 Q. Sir, in your testimony today, that's on page 26 -- 27, lines 1
13 to 3, talking about civilians, you mentioned: "They would enter through
14 a smaller gate, the one that you cannot see in this picture."
15 Now, my question is: Do you see this smaller gate that you were
16 talking about in this picture.
17 A. Yes. I said that the big gate was used to let vehicles pass
18 through and the smaller gate was for pedestrians, and you can see it here
19 next or leaning to the reception area or this duty booth or the reception
20 area, as I said before.
21 Q. Maybe if I can ask the court usher, to be on the safe side, so I
22 would ask you to identify with this pen with this gate where civilians
23 used to come, so if you can make a circle around that gate.
24 A. That's the one here.
25 Q. And one further question: To the left of this picture, we see a
1 building in the back. Can you tell us what this is?
2 A. That's the Standard Barracks.
3 Q. If you can sign this picture --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Sign it and date it, and we'll break.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much. I have no further questions
7 thank you Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see the date on it. Okay.
9 We'll have a 25 minute break. Thank you.
10 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. Jeremic.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jeremic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you think your cross-examination will
20 MR. THAYER: We estimated 30 minutes, Mr. President. I think I
21 should be able to stay within that estimate. I may need a couple of
22 minutes on the other side.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And we don't have any other witnesses after that
24 today; correct?
25 MR. BOURGON: We do, Mr. President. The next witness is ready to
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Okay, okay. I thought the next witness was
3 the videolink one.
4 MR. BOURGON: Both videolink witnesses are tomorrow,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that.
7 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. Good morning again, to you, sir. It's nice to see you again. We
10 have to stop meeting like this.
11 How many times --
12 A. I hope so, too.
13 Q. How many times -- well, you testified that you met with the
14 Defence two or three times before coming to The Hague. Were you shown
15 any documents during any of your meetings, or were you given any
16 information to help refresh your recollection?
17 A. No. They didn't try to suggest anything. I don't know. I don't
18 think they showed me any documents. Well, I've already explained what
19 were the circumstances that we discussed.
20 Q. Right. So your recollection is -- or your testimony is based
21 solely on your recollection of these events; is that fair to say?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And is it fair to say that the specific names that stick out in
24 your mind about whom the Defence was interested when they met with you
25 were that of Vojislav Jekic and Ratko Vidovic; correct?
1 A. Yes, we discussed that topic.
2 Q. Do you recall the names of anyone else who the Defence asked you?
3 A. I don't remember. We spoke mostly about Vidovic and Jekic.
4 Q. Now, you recall obviously testifying here on the 24th and 25th of
5 April 2007
6 19 December 2007
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And when you testified in this case, my colleague from the
9 Nikolic Defence team asked you about your gate duty. Your response was,
10 and this is at page 10455 of the transcripts, quote: "Please do not ask
11 me about dates because I do not remember dates."
12 A. Yes, that is correct. That's what I said.
13 Q. And no one is going to fault you, sir, or criticize you, but it's
14 fair to say that you do not remember the specific dates of these events;
16 A. Yes, correct.
17 Q. And it's also fair to say that with the passage of time, you've
18 forgotten or are unclear about certain events that occurred during this
19 very busy and stressful period of time within the brigade; correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. Now, when you testified here before, when I tried to find out
22 from you whether you could tie your gate duty to the time that your
23 fellow MPs were sent to Orahovac, your best recollection at that time
24 was, and I quote: "Well, almost the entire Military Police Company was
25 absent. Where they were, I really don't know. That's when I stayed at
1 the gate, and that is why I stood at the gate in the first place because
2 otherwise I never stood guard at the gate." And that was at page 10484.
3 And I just want to review with you some other testimony that you
4 gave, and then I'll put a question to you. Okay, sir?
5 A. [No verbal response]
6 Q. We just need an audible answer, that's all. Is that okay? I'm
7 going to ask you a question in a moment. I'm just going read some
8 testimony to you. Are you ready?
9 A. Yes, go ahead.
10 Q. In the Trbic trial, you were asked about when your fellow MPs,
11 including lawyers -- your fellow lawyers, Bogdanovic and Jovic, went to
12 the field. This is page 33 of the transcript, and the question was put
13 to you.
14 Question: "So was it a common occurrence that either your two
15 colleagues in your office would go and conduct field operations?"
16 Your answer was: "No, it would not happen."
17 Then the question was put to you: "So why were they in the
19 And your answer was: "I truly do not know. This was decided by
20 the Military Police Company commander."
21 Then the follow-up question was put to you: "Well, you are on
22 the gate. When did they leave? "
23 Your answer was: "I truly do not know when they departed. I
24 cannot recall the details. And at that point, actually, I was not even
25 aware that they had left. I'm referring to the point in time when I was
1 left at the gate."
2 Then the next question that was put to you was: "And on that
3 time, at that time, on that day you were on the gate, did you see any of
4 the command staff leaving?"
5 And your answer was: "I cannot recall precise names, but many
6 officers came in and out of the barracks. It was quite crowded, so to
7 say, but I cannot recall the names now, nor the faces, when it comes to
8 all who are coming in and out."
9 I'm just going to pause and let you catch up with the
10 interpretation. I'm going to ask you some follow-up questions about that
11 testimony, sir.
12 So, when you testified in the Trbic case, you didn't know when in
13 relation to assuming your duties at the gate your MP colleagues had gone
14 into the field; right?
15 A. That is right, and I can repeat the same thing now.
16 Q. Okay. And, moreover, you testified in the Trbic trial that your
17 gate duty could have lasted from 24 or even up to 48 hours, and that's at
18 page 35 of the transcript in Sarajevo
19 So it's fair to say that you may have been at the gate for even
20 more than 24 hours; is that correct?
21 A. It is possible. It is possible that I stayed there longer. I
22 don't know if it was 25 or 26 hours. It may have been 23 for all I know.
23 The only thing I know is that I was alone at the gate because there were
24 no military policemen left.
25 Q. Okay. Well, when you testified in the Trbic case that it could
1 have been 24 to 48 hours, is it possible that it was 36 hours, sir, that
2 you were at the gate?
3 A. I really don't know how much time I spent at the gate. It was a
4 long time ago. I can't recall. I don't think it was as many as 36
5 hours. They returned before that. I don't think it was 36 hours. It's
6 a long time; however, I'm not completely sure. I think not.
7 Q. Now, you further testified, and again this is at page 35, and I
8 quote: "While he was at the gate, I didn't even know where the Military
9 Police Company was, where they were deployed, and so on."
10 Do you stand by that, sir?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And you were then asked: "Did you find out anything later on?
13 Did you know when the -- when did these officers return to the barracks?"
14 And you answered at page 36: "Soon after maybe; maybe after a
15 day or two the company gathered; a day, two or three days. I don't
17 And, sir, can you confirm that you were still unsure whether it
18 was one, two, or possibly three days before the members of your MP
19 company returned to Standard?
20 A. I can confirm that. I truly don't know when they returned. They
21 probably did not return all together the same time; they returned at
22 different times. Someone may have returned after a day, others after two
23 or three. All I know is that not all of them came in together at once,
24 and that's what I am telling you now as well.
25 Q. And just picking up on what you just said, sir, with respect to
1 some of the MPs maybe returning at later times than others, did you ever
2 become aware that some of the MPs were sent to more than one location
3 during this period of time?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. So it's still your testimony, then, that to this day you don't
6 know where your fellow MPs were sent over this one, two, or even
7 three-day period; is that fair to say?
8 A. I didn't know at the time where they were. Now I do. I heard
9 about that. However, while he was at the gate and around mid-July, I
10 truly didn't know where the policemen had gone to. It wasn't up to me to
11 decide where they would go, and I wasn't told where they went. After
12 they returned, some of them told me where they were in the field. Now I
13 know a bit more than then. I know where some of them were.
14 Q. Now, going back to this period in July of 1995, again just to
15 pick up on what you just said, at the time when your fellow MP Company
16 members were returning from the field, where did they tell you they had
17 been assigned?
18 A. They didn't tell me anything and I wasn't asking. For example,
19 the work mates that worked with me, they told me where they had been sent
20 to, I didn't ask anyone else.
21 Q. Okay. So when you just testified a couple of moments ago that
22 "some of them told me where they were in the field," can you just tell
23 the Trial Chamber who told you and what did they tell you about where
24 they were in the field? Then I'll move on.
25 A. Well, my work mates, Bogdanovic and some others, told me they
1 were in Orahovac, in the field there. I know about them. I didn't ask
2 anyone else about anything of the sort.
3 Q. And, sir, would you agree that, as you sit here today, you don't
4 know exactly which of those one, two, or three days when your colleagues
5 were out in the field that you spent that period of time at the gate?
6 A. I was at the gate while there were no policemen in the barracks.
7 As soon as they returned, those of them who were assigned to duty shifts
8 at the gate took over. They were then at the gate, and I returned to my
9 regular tasks. I don't know whether that was one, two, or three days
10 after that. I truly can't say.
11 Q. Okay. Let me ask you some questions, then, about your actual
12 duty time at the gate. You testified earlier today that it started in
13 the afternoon and that you were alone on that duty, and I take it you
14 were alone the entire time; correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Do you recall whether you ever left that post for any reason
17 during the time you were serving at the gate?
18 A. Perhaps for brief periods of time, but I wasn't absent for any
19 longer periods of time. Somebody always had to be at the gate, a
20 military policemen had to be there. Perhaps I may have gone for a couple
21 of minutes, but not longer than that, I'm certain of it.
22 Q. Understood, Mr. Jeremic. Is there a bathroom in that little
23 reception area that you saw on the picture?
24 A. It I really don't know whether there was a toilet in the
25 reception area. I don't think so. I think I had to go to the building,
1 but it's only 15 or 20 metres away from the reception office, maybe a bit
3 Q. Okay. Did someone bring you your meals, or, again, did you
4 quickly run into the building to get your meals?
5 A. Yes. I really don't remember how it went with my meals, whether
6 I had lunch boxes or whether I had somebody bring it to me. I can't
7 remember. However, I can repeat that I was not absent from the gate for
8 any extended periods of time. I wasn't allowed to.
9 Q. Now, a few moments ago when I read out that portion of your
10 testimony in the Trbic trial, you referred to many officers coming in and
11 out of the barracks and that it was, to use your words, "quite crowded,
12 so to say" at this time when you were at the gate.
13 As you sit here today, is it possible for you to remember the
14 names of any of these officers who were coming and going?
15 A. How? I don't understand when you say that it was quite crowded,
16 that there were quite many military policemen? I was the only military
17 policemen at Standard. Perhaps you meant just plain soldiers.
18 Q. Yes, I apologise, sir. It may have been a translation issue, or
19 I may have misspoken.
20 I was citing to you your testimony from the Trbic trial where you
21 testified about many officers, brigade officers, I believe, coming in and
22 out of the barracks. We all understand that you were alone at the gate.
23 So my question was: As you sit here today, is it possible for to
24 you remember the names of any of those officers who were coming in and
1 A. I can't tell you now. It was an emergency situation and people
2 were brought back from their leave because they were needed. They were
3 all present. Probably -- I really can't remember the name of an officer,
4 whether he passed by. I really don't know. He may have, but I can't say
5 with any certainty. I can't tell you I saw this or that person. I saw
6 many people. I was at the gate, and I could see who was going in and out
7 of Standard.
8 As for anyone in particular, whether I saw them at this or that
9 time, I truly can't say. I can tell you that there were quite many
10 officers going in and out, perhaps all of the officers that were
11 regularly at the barracks.
12 Q. Okay. Now, the Prosecution's position, sir, and there's been
13 evidence before the Trial Chamber, is that Sretan Milosevic, Dragan
14 Jokic, and Dragan Nikolic were on duty as duty operations officers during
15 this period of time.
16 Do you recall seeing any of them with that extra knowledge that
17 I've giving you, suggesting to you that they were duty officers in the
18 operations room during this period of time?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer.
20 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
21 MR. BOURGON: My colleague should make the period of duty that he
22 is referring to more clear to the witness because there's three names,
23 and they might be on duty for -- it's not for me to say how long they
24 were on duty, but the question must be made clearer for the witness.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. I actually anticipated what you were
1 going to say.
2 Yes, Mr. Thayer, please.
3 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, certainly.
4 Q. During this period of one, two, three days that we are talking
5 about when your fellow MPs were in the field - and, sir, if you don't
6 remember, that's okay. We are not going to fault you - I just want to
7 know whether, as you sit here, you can recall for the Trial Chamber
8 whether any of those individuals acted as duty operations officer during
9 this period of time?
10 A. I really can't remember.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. THAYER: Now, if we may take a look at 65 ter 383, please,
13 and we'll need to go to page 8 in the B/C/S and page 6 of the English,
15 Q. Sir, what I'm showing you, and I hope you can see it on your
16 screen, is a page from the barracks duty officer book, not the operations
17 duty officer book, but the book that was maintained by the so-called
18 barracks duty officer. This was kept each day.
19 Are you familiar with this document, sir, this book?
20 A. I'm not. I'm not familiar with this document. I was never the
21 barracks duty officer; however, I know that there were duty officers for
22 the barracks. Yes, I can recall that.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. THAYER: If we can scroll down just a little bit in the
25 B/C/S, please.
1 Q. This is for the period of the 14th to the 15th of July 1995. And
2 if we see at the bottom, do you see where it says: "A body of troops at
3 the barracks was not counted due to the activities in the field; and,
4 practically, only operations duty officer, duty officer, and guards were
5 at the barracks."
6 Do you see that, sir?
7 A. Yes, I do, towards the bottom of the page. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And is it fair to say, sir, that this reference to lack of
9 officers, that doesn't sound like the day that you were at the gate, does
10 it, because you saw, as you testified, a lot of officers coming in and
11 out? Is that fair to say, that this doesn't sound like the day that you
12 were at the gate?
13 A. As I said --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment.
15 Mr. Bourgon.
16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I think it would be
17 better if the witness would remove his earphones.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: We want to know first whether he understands
19 English. One moment. I want to know whether he understands English.
20 Do you understand English?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a word.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.
23 Can you remove your headphones, please.
24 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
25 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Just before this gets too far, I mean, I understand this is
2 cross-examination and that my colleague can suggest possibilities to the
3 witness; however, he should not confuse him with a past answer that he
4 gave. My colleague quoted from the transcript of the Sarajevo interview
5 where when he mentioned that those officers were coming in and out is
6 when the military police were leaving.
7 Now he is referring to another document, and this other document
8 is on the next day and not the day that the military police left. So at
9 least he has to make those questions clear to the witness and not try to
10 confuse him with the dates. The witness has already said that those
11 dates are unknown to him.
12 Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think this witness is capable of
15 answering the question as it was put to him. I don't think there's any
16 confusion going on. He has answered all the questions that I've asked
17 him without hesitation. I'm simply asking him whether what he sees in
18 this document is consistent with what he saw at the gate.
19 If my friend has any other problems with that, he can try to
20 clarify it on redirect. I don't see any reason to interrupt this
21 witness's testimony.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All we are interested in at the moment is to
24 know whether the witness is capable of answering this question. If he is
25 and you are not satisfied or you think there is a confusion, you can deal
1 with it on redirect.
2 Headphones back.
3 Do you wish to repeat your question, Mr. Thayer? I can read it
5 MR. THAYER: I will, Mr. President. I'll just put it to him
7 Q. Sir, you've testified quite clearly about seeing a lot of
8 officers coming in and out of Standard at the time and being present at
9 Standard at the time.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And, in fact, I think you mentioned that you thought the people
12 were being brought back at this period of time, which might explain why
13 there were so many officers while you were at the gate.
14 So my question is: Looking at this excerpt from the barracks
15 log, where it refers to the only officers being present being the duty
16 operations officer and the barracks duty officer, does it sound like this
17 day is the day you were at the gate, or does it sound like this must be
18 another day? That's all I'm asking you, sir.
19 A. Well, let me explain you. When I said that I saw many officers
20 coming and going out of the barracks, I meant the officers who came to
21 the barracks, took something, and went back. So there was a lot of
22 coming and goings. I didn't say that I saw officers walking around the
23 compound of the barracks. That is what I wanted to say, that's what I
24 said the last time, and I'm saying it again.
25 They came to fetch something. Whether they did or not, they
1 stayed for a brief period of time and went out again. This is what I
2 saw, that there was a lot of comings and goings. I didn't see them
3 strolling around the compound. This is what I think I said.
4 Q. And when you said in your testimony in the Trbic case -- I just
5 want to make sure we understand you clearly. When you say it was "quite
6 crowded, so to say," can you recall, as you sit here today, which
7 officers; and if you can't remember names, that's fine.
8 I'll adjust the question a little bit. Can you recall, can you
9 give us any number of how many brigade officers actually were present at
10 the brigade? Understanding that you've told us you saw a lot of officers
11 coming and going, can you tell the Trial Chamber, can you give the Trial
12 Chamber any idea of how many officers were present at Standard?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to make a statement still make a
14 statement, Mr. Bourgon, because I saw you.
15 MR. BOURGON: No, Mr. President. He changed the question.
16 "Present at Standard" is fine with me. It's a different question.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I honestly don't know. I can't
19 give you any number. I cannot recall.
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. Okay. Just a couple of more questions for you, sir. In answer
22 to a question from my friend earlier today, you testified that you don't
23 recall whether there were VRS officers who were not members of the
24 Zvornik Brigade coming in and out, but that it's possible. Do you
25 remember that, sir?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. THAYER: May we have P377 on e-court, please.
4 Q. I'm going to show you a couple of pages from the duty operations
5 officer notebook, sir, and we'll get there in just a second.
6 MR. THAYER: We are looking at page 131 of the document, please.
8 Q. Sir, do you see the document in your own language there?
9 A. It's quite illegible. Well, yes, I do see it.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. One moment, one moment. We need to
11 stop for just two minutes. Please stay here everyone. We'll be coming
12 back soon.
13 --- Break taken at 11.38 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.41 a.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Hence forth, and until the end of this week, we
16 will be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Kwon.
17 Yes, Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Okay, sir. Do you see in the middle of the page, or slightly
20 above the middle of the page, a phone number, 583-959, and an entry that
21 says: "Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Zvornik Municipal
22 Assembly, Zekic." Do you see that, sir?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. At the time in July 1995, did you know who this person was, sir?
25 A. I feel that was the president of the Executive Council, Zekic.
1 Yes, I do know him. If we are talking about the same person, I think he
2 was the president of the Executive Council, yes, of the Assembly. I knew
3 who Zekic was.
4 MR. THAYER: May we jump into private session for just one
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go to private session for a short
7 while, please.
8 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back, yes.
22 Yes, please go ahead.
23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Now, sir, is it possible that during this time when you were at
25 the gate, that this individual, Zekic, actually came to Standard for a
1 meeting and you simply can't remember today because of the passage of
3 A. I'm sure I don't remember.
4 Q. Again, sir, it's possible that this meeting happened, that this
5 individual was there, it's just that you don't remember because of the
6 passage of time; is that correct?
7 A. I really don't know about this meeting. I don't remember. Yes,
8 you are right. It was a long time ago and I don't remember.
9 MR. BOURGON: It's twice the same question, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's move on, Mr. Thayer, please.
11 MR. THAYER: May we go to page 143 of the English and the B/C/S,
12 please -- sorry, page 133; not 143, 133. That's 133 of both the English
13 and the B/C/S.
14 Q. Sir, do you see the document in front of you? This is another
15 page from the same duty operations officer notebook. There is a
16 reference to Jokic and a delegation from Pilica. Do you see that, sir?
17 A. Yes. I see it, but this is the first time I see it in my life.
18 Q. That's fine, sir. Do you know who Slavko Peric is?
19 A. Slavko Peric? I don't know. Can you help me with providing --
20 with giving me some more details?
21 Q. Sure. Mr. Peric was the security officer for the 1st Battalion.
22 Does that ring any bells for you? If it doesn't, that's okay.
23 A. I knew quite a few security officers from the battalion, but I
24 cannot remember a Peric. Probably, if I saw him, I would have
25 remembered, but I don't know.
1 Q. Okay. Well, sir, there's been testimony in this case that
2 Mr. Peric and some other members of his battalion arrived at Standard
3 during this three-day period we are talking about, and that Mr. Peric was
4 accompanied by some people who were in civilian clothes. Do you have any
5 recollection of this individual and this delegation arriving?
6 A. I can't say that I do. I don't remember.
7 Q. Again, is it possible that they came and you just can't remember
8 because of the passage of time?
9 A. Anything is possible. If there had been a large group of
10 civilians entering Standard during my shift, I would remember that, but I
11 don't know about this.
12 Q. Now, let me just ask you, you referred to Mr. Jekic and
13 Mr. Vidovic. Mr. Jekic being a former high level MUP officer from
15 would you consider those officers just regular civilians, sir?
16 A. Yes, I would.
17 Q. And they would have to show their share official credentials in
18 order to be let through; is that correct?
19 A. They certainly would.
20 Q. Now, sir, my last question is: If during this period of time you
21 were at the gate there was a small group of civilians, let's say two
22 civilians, who came to Standard, isn't it possible that, number one, they
23 came through for a short visit while you were not at your post?
24 A. I explained awhile ago that I was away just for brief periods of
25 times. Maybe I was absent for a minute or two and I explained what the
1 reasons for that were, but I would definitely not allow two strange
2 civilians to come in so easily without checking their identity papers or
3 without informing the duty operations officer about their identity, if,
4 as you mentioned, those were two high ranking officers from the MUP of
7 Q. Sir, in your answer, you just said: "... if, as you mentioned,
8 those were two high ranking officers from the MUP of Serbia." Do you
9 mean to say that if they were such officers, it's possible that they came
10 through? Is that what you were saying there?
11 A. That's not what I wanted to say. You said two high ranking MUP
12 officers and I just repeated your words. I didn't know whether they were
13 officers or not; but if they were dressed in civilian clothes, they
14 wouldn't have been able to pass through. I would stop them, check their
15 ID papers, and ask for instructions from the duty operations officer
16 because I didn't know who these people were. I don't know how they
17 looked like. I had heard of them and I would find them interesting in a
18 way, and that would definitely be something to help me memorize that
19 these two appeared at my gate.
20 Q. But, again, sir, you would agree that it's possible that you've
21 simply for gotten that, as you've have forgotten a lot of other --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You are being repetitive now. I mean, you put this
23 question several times and this possibility several times, and you have
24 had more than one answer. So let's move to your next question if you
25 have any or else conclude here.
1 MR. THAYER: That is my final question. I thank you Mr. Jeremic.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there redirect, Mr. Bourgon?
3 MR. BOURGON: Yes, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Briefly, please.
5 Re-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
6 Q. I only have a few questions for you, Mr. Jeremic.
7 At page 34 lines 18 to 20, there was a question about what
8 documents were shown to you by the Defence, and your answer was that we
9 did not try to influence you in any way.
10 But do you recall that we showed you those pictures that we used
11 in Court today?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. When we met this weekend here in The Hague, do you remember we
14 showed you those pictures?
15 A. I don't remember. I haven't seen them.
16 Q. Sir, when you -- at page 35, lines 1 to 4, you mentioned in
17 response to a question from my colleague that: "When we met, we spoke
18 about Ratko Vidovic and Vojislav Jekic.
19 "When I say "we," it is you and I, to be more precise. Did we
20 ask you only about Ratko Vidovic and Vojislav Jekic, or did we also ask
21 you about any civilians coming in on that day?
22 A. Well, we mostly discussed Jekic and Vidovic, but you did ask me
23 how would I have reacted if any other civilians showed up.
24 Q. Sir, when my colleague quoted from your transcript before the
1 lines 20 to 22: "I cannot recall precise names, but many officers came
2 in and out of the barracks. It was quite crowded, so to say, but I
3 cannot recall the names now, nor the faces, when it comes to all those
4 who were coming in and out."
5 Does this comment apply to officers, and is the situation
6 different for civilians?
7 A. There were no civilians whatsoever; I said that before. The
8 situation was such that they were not in the vicinity of the barracks.
9 They didn't even pass along the main road, and it was just the army
11 Q. And, sir, one question I'd like to have for you: If you civilian
12 or a person dressed in civilian clothes came in, in the same car as a
13 brigade officer, is it possible that this person would be let through?
14 A. Well, if that person was in the company of a commander or a
15 chief, I wouldn't stop such a vehicle.
16 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
17 MR. BOURGON: I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 We have one question from the Bench.
20 Judge Prost, please.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE PROST: You've covered this, I think, Mr. Jeremic to some
23 degree, but I just wanted to be very clear here.
24 At page 28 of the transcript today, lines 20 to 25, Mr. Bourgon
25 put a question to you: "Would you let at any time an unknown civilian
1 walk in the barracks without an escort."
2 And the part of the answer I'm interested in is where you said:
3 "Civilians were not allowed to enter the barracks, unknown civilians."
4 I am wondering if there was a distinction, then, if a civilian
5 happened to be known to the guards if he or she would be allowed to
6 proceed into the barracks without an escort?
7 A. If an officer was in civilian clothes, I would let him in without
8 any checks. That's what I had in mind. Unfamiliar civilians would not
9 be let in. If there was a civilian that I knew, for example, an officer
10 in civilian clothes, I would let him pass through the gate. That's what
11 I had in mind when I said that.
12 JUDGE PROST: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you there are no further questions for you,
14 which means that you are free to go. Staff will assist you. Thank you
15 for coming again to give testimony; and, once more, we wish you a safe
16 journey back home.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good-bye to
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And, Mr. Bourgon, documents? You have got two
21 MR. BOURGON: Indeed, Mr. President, two pictures, 3DIC 222,
22 which is a version of 3D500; and 3DIC 223, which is a picture of
23 Exhibit 3D497.
24 That's it, Mr. President. Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Objections?
1 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: They are admitted.
3 Do you have any documents, Mr. Thayer?
4 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: That disposes of that witness. Let's go into
7 private session for awhile before we go to the next witness, because I
8 want to clarify something with you.
9 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness, his name is not to be mentioned.
3 Yes. We were informed that you will be seeking for the continuation of
4 the protective measures granted to this person in another case
5 continuation for this case. Is this correct?
6 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. However, the e-mail that you sent to
8 our senior legal officer seems to suggest that this person enjoyed in
9 that trial, in those proceedings, the protective measures of pseudonym,
10 face distortion, and voice distortion.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is the
12 information we received during our meeting with the witness.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: However, I have been given the decision by that
14 particular Trial Chamber which indicates that the protective measures
15 granted to this individual were only of a pseudonym and face distortion.
16 They did not include voice distortion.
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] As far as Defence is concerned,
18 Your Honour, we have no problem with using the same measures as they
19 applied in the last case. Perhaps the witness was wrong when he passed
20 that information on. If you wish so, we can verify that once more with
21 the witness.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: The decision of the other Chamber goes back to
23 August 2003, it's of the 26th, which you can check, I suppose. You would
24 have a copy of it.
25 So, have you verified? Have you been able to verify this,
1 Mr. McCloskey in.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: We haven't, Mr. President, but we can just stay
3 out of this one.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Can we start with this witness.
5 I think you need to bring down the curtains while he walks in.
6 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, I have one further preliminary
7 matter before we begin --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 MR. BOURGON: -- in public session, which also has to do with
10 Witness 3DW-1, in terms of the scheduling of his testimony. Many
11 suggestions were made yesterday that maybe he could begin today or maybe
12 he could begin earlier on Thursday. It doesn't seem to be possible.
13 Both options are not possible. Some people are not happy with the fact
14 that he would begin an hour earlier, others -- other teams want to see
15 the witness before he begins his testimony; therefore, we prefer to have
16 him begin on Thursday.
17 I did discuss the matter with the witness; and contrary to what I
18 said yesterday, he has no obligations, he would have been able to begin
19 earlier. But now he has checked his agenda and he is willing to stay
20 until Monday, if that is necessary, to complete his testimony. So we can
21 proceed as planned on Thursday morning.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's good. That's good. Thank you.
23 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a 92 ter witness, isn't he?
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's have it as brief as possible, then.
2 Good morning to you, sir.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You are welcome to this Tribunal. You are going to
5 start giving evidence as a witness for the Nikolic Defence team. You
6 have testified here before, and when you did you were given two
7 protective measures; namely, that of the use of a pseudonym instead of
8 your real name and also the use of facial distortion. We have discussed
9 this and we are going to keep them in place for the duration of your
10 testimony in this trial now.
11 Before you start giving evidence, you are required to make the
12 solemn declaration you are familiar with. Please read it out aloud, and
13 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please make yourself
18 WITNESS: WITNESS 3DPW-017
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: For the first part of your testimony, I think we
21 will need to go into private session, so let's go into private session
23 [Private session]
11 Page 26123 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Thank you.
13 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. I will address you as "Witness." Do you remember having given a
15 statement to the Drago Nikolic Defence team on the 1st of June 2008?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Did you have occasion to read that statement yesterday during
18 your proofing for the testimony here in The Hague?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] For the needs of the proceedings
21 under Rule 92 ter, I wanted to read out the summary of the statement.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mrs. Nikolic.
2 Let's go into private session, please.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 26126-26127 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
5 MS. NIKOLIC:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Ratko Vidovic's police force --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: No. You start where I told you: "Based on
8 his ..."
9 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] From the beginning of the
11 Based on everything he knows and went through, the witness
12 believes that Ratko Vidovic was deeply involved in the events in Zvornik
13 in 1992. Ratko Vidovic's police unfoundedly arrested the witness in the
14 territory of Serbia
15 witness was then directly taken to the Alhos factory where he was abused.
16 The witness believes that Ratko Vidovic cooperated with Arkan,
17 SDS members, and other participants in the 1992 events. He carried out
18 their orders and knew well what was taking place in Zvornik during that
19 period. The witness did not know Vojo Jekic, but he heard that he was
20 present in Zvornik during the events of 1992.
21 The witness remembers Enver Abdic, who was the Zvornik Red Cross
22 secretary, who was arrested in 1992, beaten, and killed. His body was
23 found in 2007 during the exhumations carried out at Crni Vrh. Abdic's
24 murder is linked to Jekic's activities in 19.92 in Zvornik.
25 This concludes the reading of the summary pursuant to Rule 92
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you have a few questions?
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'll have about
4 a dozen questions, but I think this is a good time for the break.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's have a 25 minute break starting
6 from now. Thank you.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
10 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Sir, this summary of the statement that I have read out, does
12 that reflect your statement?
13 A. Entirely.
14 Q. Are the facts contained in your statement true and correct?
15 A. I believe they are.
16 Q. Do these facts fully reflect what you would have said for this
17 Honourable Court had you been asked the same questions that you were
18 asked in the statement?
19 A. I believe that what I said is what it is.
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] At this point Your Honour, I would
21 like to tender into evidence the statement of Witness 3DW71; that is,
22 document number 3D471.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from anyone? Mr. McCloskey?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
1 It will be under seal, of course. So let's proceed, and we'll
2 give it a number later.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Let me ask you just a few more questions and I will curtail my
6 On the day that you were arrested, at the place where you were
7 arrested, did you talk to any of the policemen from Mali Zvornik?
8 A. Yes, I did, but only after they put me into the car. Actually, I
9 asked to talk to the police commander Vidovic. They contacted him and
10 told him that he was at the petrol station in Mali Zvornik. They drove
11 me there and that was in the direction of Bosnia -- or rather, Alhos, and
12 they already had an order to hand me over there.
13 Q. That is the question. On that day, did you talk personally with
14 Ratko Vidovic?
15 A. Yes, I did. When they brought me to the petrol station, he was
16 there, and I exchanged a few words with him. Actually, I asked him why I
17 was arrested, if I was arrested at all, and why are they taking me to
19 were one country. And the normal procedure would be to take an arrested
20 person to the district court of that particular region, not to take them
21 to another republic.
22 He responded by saying that he could not help me, that I should
23 go to Alhos and try to settle the issue there, which means that he must
24 have had some orders from someone else to have me taken to Alhos without
25 any additional questioning.
1 Q. Do you know who he received the orders from?
2 A. I don't know directly, but I know who was present during my
3 arrest and what this line of communication was. I was handed over
4 directly to the president of the SDS, Brano Grujic, and Arkan's deputy,
5 the "Major" or whatever he was.
6 Q. Do you know where Brano Grujic's whereabouts now?
7 A. I know that he is waiting in custody in Belgrade for trial.
8 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us to
9 move into private session for the next few questions, if possible.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's do that.
11 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. How long did you know Ratko Vidovic?
19 A. Well, certainly since the day I came to Zvornik until 1992. That
20 would make it 20 years or so.
21 Q. As a member of the commission that you just mentioned, did you
22 learn about any activities of Ratko Vidovic?
23 A. At that time, he and another colleague of his were accused of
24 bringing vehicles from Austria
1 left Zvornik after that, and the other colleague remained there and
2 worked as a haulier. And after awhile, he turned up as a police officer
3 in Mali
4 Q. Based on your 20 year long acquaintance with Ratko Vidovic, how
5 would you describe him as a person?
6 A. If we do not take into account what he did to me personally, and
7 his responsibility for having me delivered to Alhos, although he knew
8 what would happen to me, that I would be killed if I was detained there,
9 I can say that he was a man who had committed an offence. And I also
10 know that after the war he bought some business premises and a flat in
12 tables and were unable to satisfy their daily needs. I don't think that
13 he could have afforded that on his civil servant's salary.
14 So, regardless of all that, I would say that he was a
15 dishonourable man for being responsible for what happened to me.
22 Q. During these meetings, did you hear of a man called Vojo Jekic?
23 A. Not initially; but sometime in March, his name mentioned came up.
24 I cannot tell you exactly in what context, but I remember Brano Grujic
25 saying several time that he had contact with Vojo. I didn't know what
1 his position was, but I remember him being mentioned; although, names
2 were rarely mentioned, but his name was.
3 Q. What about Predrag Jovicic?
4 A. Yes. I saw him personally in those days before the war. He was
5 the secretary of the Zvornik municipality committee; and, later on, as a
6 Bosnian-Herzegovinian caterer, he joined the State Security service in
8 context. I still don't know who they belonged to. I assumed that they
9 were members of the same service.
10 Q. Were these services involved in any activities at the beginning
11 of war in Zvornik?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, sir. We are getting so far into
14 non-relevant, as far as I can see, materials. He has heard a guy's name,
15 he doesn't know what context it's in, he heard he might be this, he heard
16 he might be that. I don't know what good this is doing the Court.
17 I think we've gotten out of the fact about the witness and this
18 is not a 92 ter issue, and I just think there's just no probative value
19 going here -- going down this line of inquiry with a witness, especially
20 for this time period.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
22 Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
23 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go into
24 private session now, so that I can respond to this objection.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session.
1 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: At the end of the day, Ms. Nikolic, what you should
16 be concerned with is that to provide us with enough information, enough
17 testimony which would enable us to put the testimony of this gentleman
18 and that of others, and that's it. I mean, because we are talking of
19 events in 1992, and they are relevant only insofar as an allegation was
20 made in the course of this testimony -- of this trial. So let's
21 concentrate on that.
22 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, did you --
24 A. Would the counsel please repeat the question.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: There will be no repetition of the question. There
1 will be a new question that is beside the subject matter that you are
2 trying to deal with.
3 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is relative to
4 the 1992 events.
5 Q. Did you know Mr. Enver Abdic personally?
6 A. Yes, I did. We were friends. He was the secretary of the Red
7 Cross of Zvornik municipality.
8 Q. Why do you think that Vojo Jekic had anything to do with the
9 disappearance of Enver Abdic --
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection Mr. President. Where is this taking us
11 in the long run. This kind of drive-by character assassination - perhaps
12 this guys deserve it - but I don't think it does the Court any good.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, what would be the relevance of this
14 question, Ms. Nikolic? I don't think you understood what I told you
16 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, Your Honours, I
17 will conclude my examination-in-chief. Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 Mr. Zivanovic?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No questions for this witness, Your Honours.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: No exam. Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Gosnell.
25 MR. GOSNELL: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau?
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse, nothing?
4 MR. JOSSE: No questions. Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 Mr. McCloskey?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
9 I have no questions.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which basically means that we have finished here,
11 unless Judge Prost and Judge Stole have any questions.
12 Sir, we are finished with your testimony which means you can go
13 back home. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for
14 having come over.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Wait until the curtains are down
17 because we must not show your face.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 Ms. Nikolic, any documents?
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The list has
21 been submitted: The witness statement 473, and pseudonym sheet, 3D503 --
22 I apologise, the witness statement, 471.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: 471. All right. Okay.
24 I take it there are no objections?
25 So they are admitted under seal, both of them. Both documents
1 will remain under seal, separately under seal.
2 Is there anything else?
3 One moment because while we are at this, I'll go back my notes.
4 Okay. There was a Defence motion from the Borovcanin Defence team filed
5 on the 11th of September, 2008, seeking leave to amend their 65 ter
6 exhibit list with the documents indicated in the annex attached thereto.
7 On the 17th of September -- this was filed on the 11th of September. On
8 the 17th of September, following a prompt from the Bench, the Prosecution
9 filed a response in which they did not object; therefore, here and now,
10 we are granting this motion ordered.
11 Then there was another motion from the same Defence team, the
12 Borovcanin Defence team, for the admission of written evidence in lieu of
13 oral testimony pursuant to 92 bis, together with an appendix. This was
14 filed on the 15th of September. Basically, the Borovcanin team request
15 the admission of a statement by one of the witnesses, Brigadier Grange,
16 pursuant to rule 92 bis without requiring cross-examination. General
17 Grange is a character witness.
18 This was raised in Court on the 16th of September, and on that
19 occasion, Mr. McCloskey, you said that you required some more time. A
20 week has passed since then. I don't know whether you require more time
21 or whether you are in a position to make a statement?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I've spoke within
23 Mr. Gosnell and Mr. Lazarevic and Mr. Thayer, and we have decided not to
24 object to that motion.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Is there any objection from any of the
1 other Defence teams? None.
2 So that motion is also being, here and now, granted orally.
3 Then there is the motion from General Miletic for authorisation
4 to add some documents to the list of exhibits pursuant to rule 65 ter G.
5 There is a confidential annex attached to it. This was filed on the
6 18th of September.
7 As you will recall, we had put the question to the Prosecution on
8 the 18th of September, the Prosecution said that it will be no problem;
9 but the Gvero Defence team said that they were not ready at the time and
10 would not be ready by Monday, 22nd of September. Today is the day after,
11 the 23rd of September.
12 Maybe Mr. Josse is in a position to enlighten us. If you require
13 more time, we will, of course, accommodate you; but if you are in a
14 position to tell us your position, we'll be glad to hear that.
15 MR. JOSSE: Since the Trial Chamber have kindly given us the
16 option, we would rather have more time, please.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Until when?
18 MR. JOSSE: Next Monday, please.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. That's that. Okay. So that's
20 it. I don't think we have anything else.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar is reminding us that tomorrow there
23 was a special request because of logistics that we do not start the
24 videolink before 10 o'clock
25 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And in that case, can I ask you if there is
2 anything pending that you would like to deal with in open session or in
3 private session tomorrow morning between 9.00 and 10.00, any other
4 business that we could transact?
5 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Not at the moment. The Defence has
6 no proposals.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyone else?
8 Mr. McCloskey?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing, Mr. President. Without Mr. Bourgon here
10 to discuss what we could argue about, I don't have anything.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That means if we can think of something
12 ourselves, we will send you the message and we will start at 9.00;
13 otherwise,we start at 10:00
14 videolink tomorrow morning. Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.26 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th of
17 September, 2008, at 10.00 a.m.