1 Thursday, 25 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am.
11 For the record, all the accused are present. The Prosecution
12 team is composed of Mr. McCloskey only today. Amongst the Defence teams,
13 I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic; Mr. Lazarevic, I don't see him
14 there; Mr. Krgovic; and that's it.
15 Good morning to you, Colonel Landry.
16 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal where you are going to
18 give testimony as an expert witness summoned by the Defence team for
19 Accused Nikolic. Before you do so, our Rules require that you enter a
20 solemn declaration to the effect that in the course of your testimony,
21 you will be speaking the truth. The text is going to be handed to you.
22 I don't know whether it's in English or in French. In either language,
23 please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn commitment with us.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci, Messr. Landry. Make yourself comfortable.
2 It was decided a couple of days ago that because of the subject
3 matter of your testimony, same will be received in private session.
4 Reason is that if we don't, we will have to move from private to public
5 like a yo-yo throughout the whole testimony, and that will not be
6 convenient or acceptable to anyone because the public sessions themselves
7 would not make any sense. It was put to the parties to come to an
8 agreement on this, and they have both agreed that it is best if we hear
9 your evidence in private session.
10 First, you are going to be asked questions by Mr. Bourgon, I
11 notice, and you will then -- he will then be followed by others on
13 So shall we stay in open session for the first part, and then you
14 tell us, Mr. Bourgon, when to move into private session. I am using
15 private session because, otherwise, with closed session, we'd have to
16 bring down the curtains and I think we can still live with a private
17 session without having to feel further suffocated in here.
18 Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: Good morning Mr. President. Good morning, Judges.
20 Good morning, colleagues.
21 WITNESS: REMI LANDRY
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Bourgon:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel.
25 A. Good morning, Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, this testimony will be done entirely
2 in French. I'll be asking the questions and the witness will be
3 answering in French.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough. For me and Judge Prost, I will
5 probably be following the testimony in French anyway.
6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Colonel, my first question is very simple: Should we call you
8 Mr., sir, Professor, or Colonel?
9 A. You can call me "sir," but you can call me whatever you feel more
10 comfortable in.
11 Q. Would you please give us your name?
12 A. Remi Landry.
13 Q. How old are you?
14 A. Fifty-seven years.
15 Q. What is your date of birth?
16 A. 1st of April 1951.
17 Q. Colonel, before we begin --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Un moment, s'il vous plait.
19 If you could explain also to the witness why I have asked you to
20 slow down.
21 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Colonel, before we begin, I would like to remind you that since
23 we both speak the same language, it is very important that you wait
24 before you answer. You wait for me to put the question to you before you
25 answer immediately. So do you understand?
1 A. Yes, of course, I do.
2 Q. I would also like to remind you that it is very important not to
3 speak too fast in order to enable interpreters to faithfully interpret
4 what you are saying into English and into B/C/S. Do you understand this?
5 A. Yes, very well.
6 Q. I see that you brought with you a large amount of documents.
7 What are these documents?
8 A. Well, I brought my report that I sent to you. (redacted)
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, redact straightaway.
12 I think, Mr. Bourgon, please use your discretion. The witness
13 should know that he shouldn't be mentioning any names in open session, at
14 least he has to refrain of doing that a until we are in private session;
15 otherwise, we go into private session straightaway.
16 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, as the Presiding Judge just explained
18 it to you, until we are in closed session, I would like to ask you not to
19 mention any names, please.
20 A. I shall do my best.
21 Q. You said that you brought your report with you. Do you have a
22 copy of your report in English and in French?
23 A. Yes, I do. I have a French copy and an English copy of my
24 report, and they are both with me.
25 Q. Do you have other documents other than the documents that you
1 mentioned to me, so a copy of the these two reports of your report, as
2 well as the document that we have given you?
3 A. I have some notes helping me to answer to your questions and some
4 notes I took, so that will help me through my testimony.
5 Q. I already explained to you that all the notes that you have
6 brought with you were already given to the Prosecutor. Can you please
7 tell us in what language your report was drafted originally?
8 A. In French.
9 Q. Were you able so far to check the English translation of your
11 A. Yes. I had the occasion to peruse through it.
12 Q. And what is the impression you had?
13 A. Upon checking the report, I see that it seems to reflect very
14 well my French report, but I must note that the English report is
15 followed by my electronic signature, and I just wanted to make absolutely
16 certain that I'm not the author of this translation. I did not translate
17 this report. And I also noted some small discrepancies, and also some
18 terms were not interpreted or translated exactly as they should. So
19 there are some discrepancy between the French and English report.
20 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel.
21 I would like to hand you a document bearing number 3D504, and I
22 would like you to tell us what it is.
23 MR. BOURGON: It's a list that was uploaded in e-court yesterday,
24 but it was not yet available on e-court. I will ask the court usher to
25 give a paper copy, so everybody in the courtroom has received a copy of
1 this proposed exhibit.
2 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to put that exhibit on
3 the ELMO, this way everybody will be able to see it. What is it exactly?
4 A. This is a version -- or actually, this is a list of translation
5 mistakes that I noticed. So when I checked the English translation, this
6 is what I noticed.
7 Q. Thank you very much. We will no longer need this exhibit.
8 Given this observation and given the list of mistakes that you
9 wrote, do you think that we can use your -- the English version, rather
10 the translated version of your report for your testimony?
11 A. There's no problem. We can definitely use the English
12 translation, but I would just like to mention, once again, that the
13 French version should nevertheless be the authentic one, the one we
14 should rely on.
15 Q. Very well. Your report is divided in ten parts. The first
16 portion of your report deals with your CV. So please take annex A of
17 your report.
18 MR. BOURGON: 3D410 page 1.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Did you find this exhibit, Colonel?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is it exactly?
22 A. It's my CV, curriculum vitae, my biography.
23 Q. When was it made?
24 A. In April of 2008.
25 Q. Are there any changes that you would like to bring to your CV to
1 update it?
2 A. I would just like to specify that I did not complete my doctoral
3 thesis, and if everything goes well, I should obtain my Ph.D. by
5 Q. Are there any other changes that you would like to mention?
6 A. The one more small change is that I should mention that I should
7 start teaching at McGill in January 2009 and the courses on Canada
8 foreign affairs.
9 Q. Colonel, I would like to go back on some aspects of your CV, and
10 I would like to ask you to confirm to us the following facts: You began
11 working for the Canadian Armed Forces in 1978?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you were within the forces for 34 years?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You retired in 2002?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you retired, your rank was lieutenant-colonel; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What is your Ph.D. thesis, the thesis that you plan to finish by
22 A. Turbulence and Institutional Changes within the International
23 Society, a Historic Perspective.
24 Q. When you were within the Canadian Armed Forces, what was your
25 classification as an officer?
1 A. I was a mechanized officer in the parachute division.
2 Q. And you are a St. Jean Royal Military College
3 diploma or degree, rather, from St. Jean Royal Military College
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And how long did you study there?
6 A. From 1973 to 1975.
7 Q. Did you obtain a diploma from this institution?
8 A. Yes. First university cycle business administration, so a
9 bachelors degree.
10 Q. And what year?
11 A. In 1973.
12 Q. I see that from 1973 to 1975, you were a Mechanized Infantry
13 Platoon commander within the 22nd Royal Regiment; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And from 1975 to 1976, you served as an intelligence officer with
16 the 1st Airborne Commando, Canadian Airborne Regiment; is that right?
17 A. Yes. And during this period, I also acted as the informations
18 officer of the 1st Airborne Commando.
19 Q. I also see that you were informations officer within the
20 1st Commando. Did you follow a specific training before you became an
21 intelligence officer?
22 A. Yes. I followed an advanced intelligence course which lasted
23 approximately three months. This course was dispensed to officers and
25 Q. And between 1979 and 1982, you were a deputy commander and
1 commander of Mechanized Infantry Company; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Between 1982 and 1986, you served in the 1st Battalion Royal 22nd
4 Regiment in Lahr in Germany
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During that period, did you also have other functions?
7 A. Yes, I was a commander of the Canadian Forces Support unit for
9 Q. And what does a commander of support company or support company
10 commander does?
11 A. It offers support to an infantry platoon and --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let him finish the answer please.
14 Then we hear what you have to say, Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise. I don't understand French, but we
16 are not getting a full translation, and I note that the CV says
17 "personnel officer" for this unit, and a command -- and the description
18 we are getting of this job doesn't sound like a commander, but I just
19 want to know if we have the translation right. Is he a personnel officer
20 or a commander of this unit? But we are not getting a full translation.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. I think Mr. Bourgon will handle this.
22 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. The CV of Mr. Landry
23 says "personnel officer," indeed. That is why I put the question to him
24 so he could explain what that is. The real position that he mentioned in
25 French was "adjutant." Adjutant is a very specific position within any
1 battalion, and it's like an executive assistant to the commander.
2 That's, I think, what is the witness explained, but maybe the translation
3 was not properly made.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's first have a confirmation of what you've just
5 stated by witness who, after all, is the one giving testimony.
6 Colonel Landry, you followed what Mr. Bourgon has just said. Do
7 you confirm that? Mr. Bourgon was also in the Canadian Army, so you
8 should be speaking the same language.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Does that satisfy you, Mr. McCloskey?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just so it's clear. He wasn't a commander, if
12 that's the thrust of it.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understand it to be now. Yes.
14 Okay. Go ahead. Thank you.
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Colonel, in 1987, I see that you were chosen to follow a 12 month
17 long course at the Canadian Forces Command and Staff College
18 My question is as follows: Who is this course destined to and what is
19 the goal of this course?
20 A. This course is for commanders that are just about to be promoted
21 to the rank of lieutenant-colonel [as interpreted]. This course enables
22 majors to learn the job, how to become a commander, and this course
23 enables these same officers to evolve as a senior staff officer within
24 headquarters of brigades, offering superior training and within the
25 inter-army headquarters.
1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I would just
2 like to bring a correction. On page 10 line 12, it is written in English
3 that it is a course for commanders that are just about to be promoted to
4 the rank of lieutenant-colonel.
5 Q. What did you say exactly.
6 A. It is a course for majors, for majors. I should mention that the
7 term "major" does not exist in French. So, in French, it's "commandant,"
8 "commander." Maybe that's why there was a mistake in the translation, in
10 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel.
11 From 1987 and 1989, you were the chief instructor at the Canadian
12 Army Land Forces School
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In your CV, we see that you took part in an operational
15 deployment while there were some internal troubles in Oka in 1989. Could
16 you please tell us something about that?
17 A. Follow a crisis in a Mohawk reserve in the greater area of
19 possession of a bridge, a major bridge, in Montreal, and following police
20 actions which turned out to be fruitless, the provincial government asked
21 the army to intervene in order to enable the -- to end the crisis
22 basically. My implication at that time, I was deputy major of the
23 battalion, and I was in charge of the city of Oka. So, basically, my
24 deployment was trying to stabilize the situation.
25 Q. And you were promoted to a lieutenant-colonel in 1991; is that
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Un moment, s'il vous plait.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he meant deputy commander, but -- and
5 it's important, so if that's correct.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you know, Mr. Bourgon.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Colonel, the transcript says on page 11, line 12 that you were at
10 the time a deputy major. What was your rank?
11 A. I was the deputy commander -- "deputy commander" in English, and
12 "commandant" in French - of the 1st Battalion of the 22nd Royal Regiment.
13 Q. In 1993, you were a superior officer in the headquarters of the
14 land forces; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. And in 1993, you were a member of the ECMM mission of the
17 European Community deployed to Bosnia and Herzegovina, where you were
18 deputy chief of mission for the regional centre of Zenica; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. How long did this mission last?
21 A. Six months.
22 Q. During that mission, did you have the opportunity to see how the
23 military forces operated -- the opposing military forces operated?
24 A. Yes, indeed. I was in a position to see the forces of the BiH
25 army and the forces of the HVO and HV armies oppose in very difficult
1 moments and very violent moments.
2 Q. Have you had the opportunity to see the Serb army of Bosnia
4 A. Yes, indirectly, following the actions taken by the BiH army to
5 counter the advances or prepare offences against the Serb army. And in
6 my frequent contacts with the staff officers of UNPROFOR, I could get
7 acquainted with the nature of the operations led by the Serbs at the
9 Q. You mentioned "UNPROFOR." What exactly is it?
10 A. It was the supposedly peacekeeping mission for the whole of
12 Q. Your mission in Bosnia Herzegovina, did it allow you to draw any
13 conclusions regarding the operations of the opposing forces?
14 A. One of my first findings was to realise the fact that the three
15 armies in presence used the same doctrine, which was the former doctrine
16 of the Yugoslav Army amongst others. I also was in a position to get
17 acquainted with the geography of Bosnia Herzegovina because I took --
18 well, I travelled many times between Mostar and Tuzla, and I also got to
19 know the way the 3rd Bosnia Corps operated. And even on some occasions,
20 I supervised or came into contact with the authorities of the 2nd Camp
21 because I was familiar with their positions in the greater region of
23 Q. Do you have the feeling, Colonel, that you have a good enough
24 knowledge of the Serb army in Bosnia
25 truthful answers to the questions you were asked in your report?
1 A. I think that given my experience in Bosnia that I was in a
2 position, given the test I was entrusted with, to give a good analysis of
3 the military doctrine of the armies that were present; and that given my
4 military education, given my subsequent experiences, and as a result of
5 my different interventions here and of my education in general, I do
6 think that I am in a position to be able to do what I was asked to do,
7 i.e., to analyse the leadership aspects and military professionalism
8 aspects of the whole situation.
9 Q. If I pause, it's to allow the interpreters to be able to follow
10 the rhythm of the questions and answers.
11 So, Colonel, without naming anybody or giving us a period of time
12 during which were covered by your report, what is the main topic in your
14 A. You asked me to analyse a testimony.
15 Q. Now, let me specify. What subject matter is your report all
17 A. It's about how operations were led in and around Zvornik in the
18 period of time that covers 13th to 15th of July 1995.
19 Q. We'll have the opportunity to come back to this. In 1997, you
20 were transferred to the Peace Academy
22 A. The International Peace Academy
23 think-tank that is set up to serve the UN and that analyses peace
24 operations and peacekeeping operations initiated by the UN.
25 Q. On page 14, it appears before you on line 6, it is said the
1 period covered by your report is July 13th to 15th. Did you mention
2 those dates?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I saw that you got many awards in your resume; namely, one that
5 is the award for Military Order?
6 A. It is one of the distinctions given by the Canadian army by the
7 Governor General that is given to some military officers for their
8 professionalism all over their career.
9 Q. To come back to my former question: Did you analyse the day of
10 July 12th, Colonel?
11 A. Yes, indeed. I analysed the 12th, the 13th, the 14th, and the
12 15th of July in my report.
13 Q. On page 3 of your resume, I see that you followed several courses
14 during your career, which was the purpose of these courses you followed.
15 A. It was greatly or mostly to allow me as an officer to get a
16 better understanding of the armed forces in general and the profession in
17 the armed forces, and to be able to operate in any functions that can be
18 found inside mechanized infantry battalions or inside an airborne unit.
19 Q. In 2002, I see that you chose to follow in academic course. What
20 about your masters degree which you got in 1997, can you tell us more
21 about that?
22 A. Following my stay in Bosnia
23 offered me to follow a masters programme, which I initiated and
24 completed. I got a masters in political sciences, and my topic was "The
25 Origins of the Conflict in Bosnia
1 Q. And, today, Colonel, you are a consultant in security issues and
2 military analyst for different media and other organizations; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On the basis of your experience, I can see that you were called
6 to testify on two occasions in this Tribunal. In which cases did you
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection for leading on -- because it's unclear
10 whether he has been called as an expert or what. So if he could be clear
11 on, you know, why he was called in those cases.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, I think you can handle this. Go
14 MR. BOURGON: This is the question I'm going to ask to the
15 witness. I don't see the point of the objection, but I thank my
17 Q. [Interpretation] In which cases did you testify, Colonel?
18 A. Excuse me. I didn't understand your question.
19 Q. According to your CV, you testified in two occasions before this
20 Court in two cases. Which are they?
21 A. The first one is in the Blasic case, and second one is Mr. Kordic
22 as a fact witness.
23 Q. Who called you to testify in these cases?
24 A. The Prosecutor.
25 Q. Colonel, did you have the occasion to work on any other case in
1 this Court?
2 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to work with you awhile ago in the
3 case of General Hadzihasanovic.
4 Q. What were you asked to do on that occasion?
5 A. I was mainly asked to advise you on the testimony of the expert
6 witness called by the Prosecutor, i.e., General Reinhold, former
7 commander of the Allied Forces in Europe, and to be able to give you some
8 advice on the military aspects of the other witnesses who testified in
9 that case for the period that I was involved.
10 Q. In the completion of those tasks, did you have the opportunity of
11 studying any further the doctrine of the former Yugoslavia army?
12 A. Yes, indeed, I did. In order to be able to give you better
13 advice, I had at the time to take an in-depth look at the doctrinal
14 aspects of the Yugoslav Army.
15 Q. As a lecturer at the university, I see that you taught military
16 ethics and leadership. When was this and what exactly is this about?
17 A. These are courses of professional development for officers, and
18 at the time, I was asked to teach at the Kingston Royal Military College
19 the French section of the Montreal
20 2004, if I remember correctly.
21 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, if we can now move into private
22 session for the continuation of his testimony.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are going to do that immediately.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 26212-26228 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, we are resuming this after the
11 break. We will revert immediately to private session as explained for
12 the reasons explained earlier on. So let's go into private session
13 again, please.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 26230-26277 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yesterday, before we adjourned we heard, Mr. Josse
12 saying that he did not have any further reservations about the Miletic
13 motion of the 18th of September, seeking authorisation to add some
14 documents to the list of exhibits to the 65 ter list of exhibits. I will
15 put the question again.
16 Prosecution, we know already, haven't got any objection.
17 Anyone else has any objection? No objections.
18 So the motion is being granted orally now.
19 Then, Mr. McCloskey, we are not asking you to give your position
20 now or imposing any dates for the time being, but there are three new
21 Borovcanin motions which we would like you to give your attention to as
22 early as possible, keeping in mind that the Borovcanin Defence supposedly
23 should start on the 6th of October. Right. Take your time, but as soon
24 as you are in a position to give us your response, let us know.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have been talking about
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of
6 September 2008, at 9.00 a.m.