1 Thursday, 9 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Pandurevic not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, everybody. And good morning to you,
8 Madam Registrar, if you are not included amongst the "everybody." Could
9 you call the case, please.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
11 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. For the record today’s accused
13 Pandurevic is absent. We were informed beforehand of his absence and
14 waiver is in our hands. This will apply for today and tomorrow, if I
15 remember well.
16 Prosecution today is represented by Mr. McCloskey and
17 Mr. Vanderpuye. There's no one else I think. From amongst the Defence
18 teams I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Haynes.
19 And Mr. Josse.
20 Professor, good morning to you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry we had to keep you here another day.
23 We'll soon finish with you and then you can go home to your family.
24 Mr. Vanderpuye, good morning to you, if you could conclude your
25 cross-examination, please.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
2 good morning, Your Honours, good morning to my colleagues.
3 WITNESS: MLADEN BAJAGIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
6 Q. And good morning to you, Dr. Bajagic. If I could have please, 65
7 ter 3793 in e-court. While that's loading, doctor, I had asked you a
8 series of questions yesterday concerning a report that was written by Mr.
9 Borovcanin dated 30th June, and I think the second one was 1 July. I
10 want to show you this report which was written on the -- well, it's
11 written actually on the 30th of June, and the document number or the
12 dispatch number is 113/95. Now, you can see in this document that it
13 reports or it was directed to the police staff in Pale, police forces
14 staff in Vogosca and Janja special police brigade. What it reports here,
15 if you can see that in the copy on the right, is it reports on the 29th
16 of June, a combat group comprised of the 4th special police detachment
17 7th special police detachment, Kajman police detachment, Serbian MUP,
18 along with the VRS offensive forces launched an attack in Lucevik
19 facility, which is under the enemy's control and is of extreme importance
20 for the control of the Trnovo-Sarajevo road. It goes on to report about
21 combat, if you look down in the English version it's in the third
22 paragraph, and I think it should correspond with the version in B/C/S as
23 well, but in any event, you can see that the beginning of the paragraph
24 you find the date 6/29, June 29th, 1995
25 that during combats on the 29th of June, two members of the special
1 police detachment from the 4th and 7th and two members of the Serbian MUP
2 were wounded.
3 We go to the next page in the English, I think it's near the
4 bottom of the page in the B/C/S version, you'll see that he reports,
5 "Given the additional PJP forces, given that the additional PJP forces
6 had been deployed in the previous days following the break-through of the
7 VRS lines towards Trnovo, we are now trying to restore the previous
8 status of the zone of responsibility of the police. Six PJP companies
9 are now being engaged and three companies were holding the line 20 days
11 I asked you some questions I think -- well, yesterday for
12 certain, regarding your assessment of whether or not Mr. Borovcanin is
13 commanding these particular units. In light of what you have seen in
14 this document, does that help you in any way to determine his position in
15 respect of those units, and as concerns this report?
16 A. I have read the document carefully, as I did yesterday. Towards
17 the bottom it says Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy commander of the SBP.
18 Therefore, Mr. Borovcanin sent this report to three addressees. From
19 this it still cannot be seen whether he is commanding all of the units
20 mentioned herein. For me, it can also mean that he is only commanding
21 the parts of the special police brigade that were in that area rather
22 than all of the units mentioned in their letter. Based on that, I can't
23 see from the document that he is actually in command of all the units
24 referred to. However, I can make a presumption, with a degree of
25 certainty, that the police detachments mentioned that are part of the
1 Republika Srpska special police brigade that he is in command of those.
2 That would be my answer.
3 Q. All right, Doctor. If I could have in e-court, please, 65 ter
4 57. All right. This is an order, if you look at the bottom it's signed
5 by staff commander Tomislav Kovac. I think we mentioned him yesterday.
6 It is directed to the special police brigade, staff of the Trnovo police
7 forces command, staff of the Vogosca police forces command, et cetera.
8 You can read it, it's on the screen.
9 In particular, you can see from this document that in paragraph
10 or point number 3 that Ljubomir Borovcanin and deputy commander of the
11 special police brigade is designated as the commander of the MUP units,
12 and in paragraph 2 you can see the MUP units under whose command he is --
13 whose command he is to assume. And that consists of the 2nd police
14 detachment from Sekovici, you see that, 1st Company PJP unit of the
15 Zvornik, and then it says mixed company of joint RSK and Serbian RS MUP
16 forces from the -- and a company of the training camp from Jahorina. In
17 fact, you refer to this order in your report. You agree this report puts
18 Mr. Borovcanin in command of those units; right?
19 A. It is obvious from the document, from this order issued by deputy
20 minister or staff commander of the police forces at the headquarters, it
21 is clear from the letter that Mr. Borovcanin was to assume command over
22 the units referred to.
23 Q. Okay. And per this order, you can see also that it directs
24 Mr. Borovcanin as unit commander to make contact with the corps Chief of
25 Staff General Krstic. That is the order; right?
1 A. Yes, that is what it says, with General Krstic.
2 Q. And as per this order, then, Mr. Borovcanin were to have followed
3 it, he would be under the -- under the command of General Krstic; is that
5 A. Precisely so. Once in the field he was to get in touch with
6 General Krstic, he was to report to him and as of that moment
7 resubordination takes place.
8 Q. If I could have in e-court please, 65 ter 3789. Okay. As you
9 can see, this is a document the Prosecution has recently identified and
10 it is dated 13 July 1995
11 if you go down on the B/C/S version, you can see that this is a document
12 that is type signed Ljubisa Borovcanin, it is dated the 13th of July
13 1995, and its number is 284/95. This particular report it is directed to
14 the Pale police staff and the special police brigade Janja. What it does
15 is it recounts events during the course of the day, it says that the MUP
16 combat unit composed of the 2nd detachment, the MUP company of the
17 Zvornik PJP and a mixed company of the Janja MUP is engaged in offensive
18 actions from the direction of Zuti Most towards Potocari, at 5.30 we
19 sealed off the checkpoint from Zuti Most and we then proceeded along the
20 road towards Potocari. It's clear as per the previous order that
21 Mr. Borovcanin is in command of these units; isn't that right?
22 A. If you are referring to that order, then yes.
23 Q. I'm referring to the 10 July order from Tomislav Kovac that I
24 just referred to.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in this particular 13 July report --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise to interrupt my colleague, really, he
4 is cross-examining, it's not fair maybe but I would just like to have a
5 clear record on this. Here we have in paragraph 1 mixed company of MUP
6 Janja which does not correspond to the previous document and also units
7 which were mentioned in previous document in relation to MUP of Republika
8 Srpska Krajina and Serbia
9 clear record on this.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, do you wish to comment on that,
11 Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do apologise, Mr. President, I don't have the
13 transcript running in front of me. I was looking at the document as I
14 was reading it. And I can't find it right now so I'll just read it
15 again. This document that is the 13th of July, speaks about a mixed
16 company of the Janja MUP, that's what the translation I have says. The
17 order from 10 July speaks about a mixed company of joint RSK Serbian and
18 RS MUP and a company from the training camp of Jahorina. My question to
19 the expert is, is it clear from this document that he is in command of
20 these units, as per the previous order?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, fair enough, fair enough. But it's clear now
22 while it wasn't that clear before, Mr. Lazarevic was right.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I appreciate the intervention.
24 Q. Do you understand the question now, sir? Are you able to answer
1 A. I believe we understood each other.
2 Q. So you don't have -- in other words, based upon what we've just
3 said now your answer hasn't changed any, has it?
4 A. Mr. Borovcanin commanded those units referred to in the order of
5 the 10th of July, 1995. I can't place these two texts on the screen to
6 see whether the units mentioned in one are all referred to in the other.
7 In the first one we have the first company of the PJP and then we have
8 Janja here. I don't think it appeared in the previous order, but if I
9 had both documents on the screen, I'd be able to tell you.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can move. Let's proceed.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well. Thank you.
13 Q. With respect to this document, that is the 13 July 1995 document,
14 284/95, it is directed to the Pale police staff. Can you tell us what
15 that is?
16 A. As we can see, it was sent to three addressees, Pale police
17 staff, Vogosca police staff and the special police brigade in Janja.
18 Three addressees. I think this is a very short information letting them
19 know where the individual units are. It is a document sent by Mr.
20 Borovcanin informing people that those units were there and there at that
21 location. If there was a mixed company from Janja in the area where he
22 was, it was only natural that he would let the special police brigade in
23 Janja know. It is a document by way of which he is informing whether the
24 individual units of the police are and how they fared in combat that day.
25 Nothing more than that.
1 Q. All right. And the police staff, the Pale police staff, who is
2 that composed of? I mean, what is it and who comprises it?
3 A. We would have to go back to the document. I can't tell you off
4 the cuff. I don't know what the composition of the staff is. I can't
5 memorize so many names. In any case, it is a police staff of the
6 Ministry of the Interior. It can be nothing else.
7 Q. All right. Now, you can see in this report, and although it's
8 unclear to you whether or not Mr. Borovcanin command all of the units
9 that are in it, but if he is not commanding all of the units that are in
10 it, he is certainly reporting about units that he doesn't command.
11 That's fair to say; right?
12 A. One could say so.
13 Q. And let me ask --
14 A. Not reporting but informing, I'd say.
15 Q. With respect to the units that he is in command of, that would be
16 a report, wouldn't it?
17 A. Yes. We know because of the order of the 10th of July as of the
18 moment when he was reporting to General Krstic, I think it was General
19 Krstic, as of that moment, he was resubordinated to the unit of the RS
20 army in whose area of responsibility he was with his unit. In that
21 regard, he is duty-bound to submit mandatory reports to that structure
22 rather than to the Ministry of the Interior. That is why I said that he
23 was informing by this document, rather than reporting.
24 Q. It is clear then, that he is duty-bound to report on those units
25 that he commands as per the rules; right?
1 A. I think that in the instruction on regular, urgent and
2 statistical reporting, there are no situations foreseen that would cover
3 resubordination. I don't remember such provisions in the instruction of
4 the Ministry of the Interior on the regular, urgent and statistical
5 reporting. I don't think it contains provisions which could reflect this
6 situation. Hence, I can only speculate on his obligations and duties.
7 Perhaps the rules were placed ad hoc, but I did not come across that
8 while drafting my report.
9 Q. You couldn't find a rule that obligates the commander of MUP
10 units that are subordinated to the VRS to report on their status to the
11 army or to the Ministry of the Interior? You couldn't find a rule?
12 A. I am familiar with the instruction as regards informing and
13 reporting within the MUP. Any document that would refer to a situation
14 like this is something I have not come across and read, unfortunately.
15 Had I been able to, perhaps I would have been able to answer this
17 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, does the concept of unity of command, does
18 that apply to MUP combat forces?
19 A. I don't know what unity of command are you referring to. I'm not
20 clear on the term.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm sorry. In which circumstances, that would be
23 a fair question to the witness. But still he didn't understand the
24 question, so ...
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: If the witness knows, and the specific
2 circumstances I'm talking about are combat forces, combat forces of the
3 MUP. I think I did state that in my question.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's proceed. Go ahead. He needs to
5 answer the question when I said let's proceed. Are you in a position to
6 answer that question, Professor?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If we are talking about the
8 other parts of the units of the Ministry of the Interior which are
9 independent in combat as part of the armed forces they must observe the
10 instruction on all sorts of reporting. There's no doubt about that. So
11 if we are talking about units of the Ministry of the Interior outside of
12 this unit, they will have to abide by the instruction of the Ministry of
13 the Interior about urgent, statistical and occasional reporting. Urgent
14 means by dispatches, occasional reporting, statistical reporting, all
15 sorts of reporting that have to be abided by.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE:
17 Q. Thank you for that, sir. You were asked a series of questions on
18 your direct examination yesterday concerning the rules on internal
19 organisation of the MUP. I wanted to put to you some questions regarding
20 that, if I may.
21 Under Article 51 of the rules on internal organisation of the
22 MUP, that was 4D144. It is clear that the general obligations of members
23 or employees of the MUP, it is that they are entrusted or obliged to
24 carry out thoroughly, orderly and in a timely fashion, meeting high
25 standards and responsibly, their duties and tasks in a manner that is in
1 accordance with all legal and other regulations as well as the
2 instructions received from the minister. Is that right?
3 A. I suppose if you are reading, but I don't have anything in front
4 of me in an electronic form. I can't see the document.
5 Q. If you would like me to put it up, I'll put it up there for you.
6 It's 4D144. There is no English, I'll have to have him read it into the
7 record. I understood that my colleagues were going to provide a fully
8 translated version of the rules.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: We can survive that. Let's proceed.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Is this the fully translated version? In any
11 event, in the B/C/S version it's page -- I believe it's page 32 in
12 e-court. 5705 is the ERN number so we can page forward I think three
14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is 5702. Okay.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE:
16 Q. Article 51 is at the bottom of the page -- now it's in the middle
17 of the page. If you can take a look at that and read it into the record?
18 A. I see it. Article 51: "An employee is duty-bound to perform
19 duties and tasks that he is entrusted with in time at a high quality
20 level, economically, with responsibility and in keeping with the legal
21 and other regulations as well as the instructions provided by the
22 ministry." Yes, I am clear on this article.
23 Q. And that applies to all members of the Ministry of the Interior,
24 doesn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. And with respect to the law on the internal
2 organisation of the MUP, that was 4D172, Article 15 of that document
3 provides that the protection of citizens' lives and personal safety as
4 well as the prevention and detection of criminal offences a
5 responsibility to be discharged by members of the MUP. And that's among
6 other things, would you agree with that?
7 A. Absolutely. I don't see the article on the screen but I agree
8 with it. This article sums up and defines the overall function of the
10 Q. And that article didn't change with respect to the update of the
11 law in March 1994 or subsequently; right? I see we have it in e-court,
12 Article 15, starts with the public security service carries out
13 administrative, specialized and other activities, and if you continue
14 down you can see that among those responsibilities concern --
15 administrative responsibilities concerns the protection of citizens'
16 lives and personal safety and the prevention and detection of criminal
17 offences. You see that, right?
18 A. Yes, this is absolutely correct, I'm very familiar with Article
20 Q. Very well. So you know that it didn't change in 1994?
21 A. I don't see how this article could undergo any major changes. It
22 has to remain the same.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Article 41 of the same law on the internal organisation of the
1 MUP, that provides for an oath or a pledge of authorised officials of the
2 Ministry of the Interior; right? You find that on page 6 in the English
3 and page 6 in the B/C/S. English if you look down at the bottom of the
4 page, you can see it begins with the sentence "The text of the formal
5 statement reads:" It provides: "I hereby pledge to execute the duties
6 of an authorised official in a conscientious and responsible manner, to
7 adhere to the constitution and the law, to protect with all my strength
8 the constitutionally established order of the republic, the rights,
9 freedoms and security, and to carry out these and other activities and
10 tasks of an authorised other officials even when the execution of such
11 tasks places my life in danger."
12 A. Yes, I can see it and I'm familiar with this text, I know of it,
13 I know that it is part of this law.
14 Q. And it is required to be undertaken and discharged by authorised
15 members of the Ministry of the Interior; right?
16 A. Precisely so.
17 Q. You also were asked some questions as concerns the constitution,
18 and in particular you read part of Article 68 of the constitution, I
19 think --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you know that Article 68 provides, it provides for the
22 protection of human rights, national freedom and equality,
23 constitutionality and legality?
24 A. Precisely so.
25 Q. That was provided for in the constitution of the Serb republic of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and also with respect to the constitution of the
2 Republika Srpska; is that right? You have to answer on the record.
3 A. Yes, that's right. Correct.
4 Q. And in Article 51 of that constitution, it refers to what is
5 called the constitutional order. I refer you to that because the oath
6 refers to the protection of the constitutional order, and Article 5 of
7 the constitution defines the constitutional order in part that it's based
8 on the protection of ethnic groups and other minorities. You recall
9 that; right?
10 A. I know it's there, but I cannot remember off the cuff which
11 article it is. It's impossible for me to bear all these extensive
12 documents in my memory, but I know that it's part of the constitution.
13 Q. All right. Well, let me put it up on the screen so you can see
14 it. It's 4D194. I think it might be right on page 1. Page 2 in the
15 English, I think. If you look at Article 5, the very last point it says
16 the protection of ethnic groups and other minorities. Article 5 reads:
17 "Constitutional order of the republic is based on the following," and it
18 lists a number of things. You see that; right?
19 A. Yes, I can see it and I have read it.
20 Q. All right. And let me just point out the very first item on
21 this. What that reads is: "The constitutional order of the republic is
22 based on," and the very first item is "the guarantee and protection of
23 human freedom and rights with respect to international standards." You
24 see that; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the Geneva Conventions would be considered international
2 standards as referred to in this document; right?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Let me just refer you back to Article 4 of the law on internal
5 organisation of the MUP. 4D172 in e-court. It's on page 6 in the B/C/S
6 and page 6 in the English. Article 42 provides -- I wish we could blow
7 it up a little bit. "Authorised officials must carry out activities and
8 tasks related to the protection of the constitutional order," as I've
9 just read it to you. "... protection of national lives, personal
10 security, the prevention of criminal offences and capture of their
11 perpetrators as well as activities and tasks related to maintaining law
12 and order at all times, regardless of whether they are on duty and
13 whether they have been explicitly assigned a particular task." You see
14 that; is that right?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And all authorised members of the MUP are obligated to comply
17 with this rule?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no further questions for you, Doctor,
20 thank you very much.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you Mr. Vanderpuye. Is there redirect,
22 Mr. Lazarevic.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Indeed, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: How long?
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that it will be like 25
1 to 30 minutes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning Dr. Bajagic again.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. I would like to start my re-examination with last things first,
7 i.e., with the questions that my learned friend Mr. Vanderpuye put to you
8 a minute ago and showed you some relevant paragraphs about the Ministry
9 of the Interior and all these relevant paragraphs that he quoted to you
10 represent the duties as well as the authorities of the authorised
11 officials of the Ministry of the Interior under the law?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. My question about these paragraphs is as follows: When a member
14 of the Ministry of the Interior performs his regular duties and tasks, he
15 has all the authorities that we have just had an opportunity to look at?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let's move on to a different situation now. It is a situation in
18 which a member of the Ministry of the Interior participates as a
19 resubordinated member within a unit of the Ministry of the Interior, in
20 combat, would he still have the same authorities that are prescribed by
21 the law or not?
22 A. No. He cannot have standard authorities if he is resubordinated
23 and participates in combat under the command of the army.
24 Q. In other words, while there is combat going on and while the unit
25 of the Ministry of the Interior is participating in combat, the officials
1 of the Ministry of the Interior do not have the same authorities as they
2 would normally have?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: First of all I object to the question. It's
6 clearly leading.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Too late.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: The other issue is with respect to this
9 particular -- it's unclear what particular authorities and obligations my
10 colleague is referring to in either the question or the answer.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you wish to comment, Mr. Lazarevic?
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't think. I was speaking about authorities
13 that police officers have in regular situation and to compare it with the
14 situation in combat activities when resubordinating and when
15 participating in combat activities.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We leave it in your hands, Mr. Lazarevic, to expand
18 on this to make it a little bit more clear.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I could put one hypothetical question to the
20 witness, I will put it and Your Honours will decide whether this question
21 is fair. Of course my colleague are allowed to intervene if they find
22 it --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You are almost inviting him to object beforehand.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. [No interpretation].
1 JUDGE KWON: We are not hearing the translation.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, we haven't got translation.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Professor Bajagic, let's take into account the following
5 hypothetical situation.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Are you now receiving interpretation, can you follow me?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Professor Bajagic, let's take, for example, an inspector working
11 in crime prevention service in the security centre in Zvornik, for
12 example. His main task would be -- what would it be, could you tell me
13 what would be such an inspector's main task?
14 A. To detect and apprehend perpetrators of crime, of general crime,
15 it would rather depend on the particular area he works on.
16 Q. And in performing these tasks and duties, what would be his
17 authorities under the law?
18 A. He would have all the authorities that we have already listed
19 from the law of the interior issuing warning, issuing orders,
20 enforcement, the use of firearms, all such authorities.
21 Q. Very well then. So these authorities are such when he is on duty
22 and when he is off duty, wouldn't that be correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let's now look at a situation in which the same inspector has
25 become a member of a special police unit and/or a PJP and becomes a
1 member of a special company of the police, and that special company
2 participates in combat as a unit resubordinated to the army command. In
3 such a situation, would this inspector maintain the same authorities that
4 he had before?
5 A. I heard it loud and clear even before this very detailed question
6 was put to me. He would no longer have such authorities.
7 Q. For how long? For how long would he not have such authorities?
8 A. Until the moment he returned to his normal position and to the
9 moment when he performs his normal tasks and duties.
10 Q. While he participates in combat, does he have an official ID?
11 A. No, he cannot identify himself as a police member if he
12 participates in combat.
13 Q. Thank you very much. I will move on to some other topics that
14 were tackled yesterday. Yesterday on pages 56 to 62 of the transcript,
15 my learned friend Ostojic asked you something about informing and
16 reporting and he quoted Article 256 of your expert report. This is
17 Exhibit 4D499, page 66 in B/C/S and pages 67 and 68 in English. And
18 let's just clarify something --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment. I need to discuss
20 something with my colleagues.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: Before going further I was about to ask the witness
23 to clarify his explanation. Instead of taking the example of inspector,
24 why don't we just take the example of Mr. Borovcanin. He was a deputy
25 commander of the special police brigade, and he was designated by
1 Mr. Kovac to command the several MUP units as we saw earlier and he was
2 resubordinated to Mr. Krstic.
3 How is new role of Mr. Borovcanin different from the previous one
4 in concrete terms?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is different because my
6 previous explanation applies to Mr. Borovcanin. Mr. Borovcanin was
7 resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska and he no longer had the
8 same authorities and he could not act on the ground as a policeman,
9 irrespective of his function as a member of the ministry of the interior
10 for as long as he is resubordinated to somebody.
11 JUDGE KWON: But he is still in command -- he is in command of
12 those several MUP units, isn't he?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not in dispute, but we are
14 not talking about any police authorities or anything that had to do with
15 that, that we have just spoken about.
16 JUDGE KWON: While being resubordinated to the VRS, he is also
17 duty-bound to report to the -- his superiors in the MUP as we have seen
18 in one of his reports or information sent to his Pale police staff?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see we are talking at cross
20 purposes. When he is resubordinated to the army, Mr. Borovcanin can just
21 be incorporated in the system of informing and reporting of the Army of
22 Republika Srpska, so he does not have to abide by the rules of reporting
23 of the Ministry of the Interior. He can send interim and urgent reports
24 but he does not have any obligations towards the Ministry of the interior
25 because he is incorporated in the system of the Army Republika Srpska.
1 JUDGE KWON: Can we bring up the 65 ter P3789 which is dated 13
2 of July. I take it that by that time Mr. Borovcanin was resubordinated
3 to the VRS? Professor, do you agree that Mr. Borovcanin was
4 resubordinated to the VRS by this time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At this time he was
6 resubordinated to the Army Republika Srpska.
7 JUDGE KWON: Then if you could explain why he sent out this
8 report to Pale police staff?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although he was resubordinated to
10 the Army Republika Srpska and although he was incorporated in the system
11 and abided by the rules of the Army Republika Srpska, this did not
12 prevent him or prohibit him from sending information to keep abreast of
13 the events of those parts of the Ministry of the Interior in whose area
14 Mr. Borovcanin was deployed. One thing does not exclude the other.
15 Those two things are not mutually exclusive. He could still send reports
16 if he so wanted.
17 This was not his obligation. This is an internal document. In
18 other words, Mr. Borovcanin wanted to, of his own will, inform certain
19 bodies of the Ministry of the Interior about some developments on the
20 ground that had to do with the ministry's units. But this did not fall
21 within the system of obligatory reporting.
22 JUDGE KWON: If I am to say the only difference on the part of
23 Mr. Borovcanin would be that he should follow the order of the VRS
24 superior, am I correct or not?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You probably are.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Kwon. Mr. Lazarevic.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I apologise, I'm trying to fully grasp the answer you've just
5 provided to Judge Kwon that the only difference as asked by Mr. Kwon was
6 in the situation of Mr. Borovcanin between his resubordination and the
7 other situation has to deal with the reporting, but you were also talking
8 about the authorities. Is that another difference?
9 A. When Mr. Borovcanin is resubordinated to a higher command of VRS
10 unit, he no longer holds the police authorities. I can support that by
11 an example.
12 Q. I don't think that would be necessary.
13 JUDGE PROST: Actually, I would appreciate hearing his example on
14 that point.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Borovcanin is an authorised
16 official. He cannot involve himself in collecting information on crimes
17 in the field or about the services of public law and order. That would
18 seem ridiculous compared to the seriousness of the tasks received when
19 participating in combat as someone who had been resubordinated to the
21 JUDGE PROST: So if I understand you correctly, if he came across
22 a situation where in his normal police capacity he might carry out
23 investigative tasks for example, in this context he would be unable to,
24 he would be solely responsible to carry out the orders coming from the
25 VRS; is that correct?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is responsible to implement only
2 the orders of the VRS. That is to say, his superior commander at that
3 moment. Nothing else.
4 JUDGE PROST: Thank you very much. Mr. Lazarevic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Mr. Lazarevic, before I give you the
6 floor, your client wishes to make a statement. Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: Your Honour, I would kindly ask to be
8 allowed to meet my attorney for a very brief period of time.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. Of course.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, maybe if I may suggest we have a
12 JUDGE AGIUS: You can suggest it but unfortunately I have an
13 official meeting at 10.30 which cannot be moved so there is no point in
14 taking the break now because I have to be present for this meeting. So
15 take your time, perhaps if you wish to be accommodated outside the
16 courtroom while we wait and --
17 THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: Thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Please make your own arrangements, I don't know
19 what you wish to do.
20 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic. I see
22 Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I just wondered,
24 because the answer seemed somewhat ambiguous, if my colleague could
25 clarify with this expert if he is suggesting that under the example given
1 by Judge Kwon if Mr. Borovcanin is resubordinated to the VRS whether or
2 not he is bound by the same obligations and rules of VRS officers such as
3 the Geneva Convention as distinguished from other rules.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, very fair question. If Mr. Lazarevic wishes
5 to put it. Yes.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: If you don't, we will put it.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I think I can put it but I'm
9 not quite sure whether this is in the scope of expert report of the VRS
10 rules but I'll put it anyway.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think if going through the details of
12 responsibilities of various officers both in the police force and the
13 military was -- even when they are subject to the military was part of
14 his expertise, this one would fall under the same area. I mean, there's
15 no doubt about it. So let's proceed because we are wasting time.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I will put this question in order to clarify the matter. At the
18 moment of resubordination to the competent command of the VRS is he bound
19 by generally speaking the rules of the military without going into such
20 detail that may not have been the subject of your expert report?
21 A. Generally speaking, the answer would be yes, although I have to
22 add something. My expert report has to do with the scope of authority
23 the Ministry of the Interior. I'm not a lawyer by profession and I'm not
24 competent to study any details that have to do with criminal law or any
25 other body of law, for that matter. I can only share with you what I
1 know about certain provisions on disciplinary measures in the Law on
2 Internal Affairs. However, I do not dare delve any deeper than that
3 since I believe I'm not sufficiently competent.
4 Q. I believe you said that in general your answer would be yes. I
5 don't think that can be found in the transcript.
6 To go back to what we have started, I will have a few questions
7 left for you. At the outset of redirect, I began asking you about
8 information and representation that you dealt with in paragraph 256 of
9 your expert report. It is 4D499, page 66 in the B/C/S and 67 and 68 in
10 the English version. Let us clarify something. This part of your report
11 deals with the information and representation as one of the functions of
12 command and control; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. In your expert report, there is a separate part dealing with
15 informing within the MUP; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Let us have a look at several documents that you saw yesterday as
18 well. First, P62, the CSB
19 13th of July 1995. Do you have that on your screen?
20 A. I do now.
21 Q. Could we please zoom in so that the witness could read more
22 easily. When talking in general about informing within the MUP, you said
23 that it has to be accurate based on the regulations?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you look at this dispatch, can you make out at all whether
1 Mr. Vasic was informing his superiors accurately?
2 A. I can see that this is an urgent type of reporting, that is to
3 say a dispatch. I cannot offer my judgement on the facts mentioned
5 Q. Let us look at document P61 next, shown to you yesterday as well.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please verify the exhibit
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: P61. Or rather it's P886. Either of them, it's
9 the same document, I think. Yes, that's the one. Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, we were talking about the previous
11 document. Does the same apply to this second document?
12 A. Yes. This is another dispatch as an urgent way of informing. As
13 for its contents, I cannot offer my opinion.
14 Q. Since certain facts are mentioned in the document, you cannot
15 know which forces of the MUP the document refers to?
16 A. Absolutely. I am not familiar with any facts on the ground and I
17 cannot offer my assessment.
18 Q. Yesterday, you were asked a few question concerning the procedure
19 of engagement of police units and certain deviations that may have
20 existed in practice. Could we please see 4D327 next in relation to that.
21 To cut it short, this is a document, as you can see, was sent by
22 the Drina Corps command, document number 03/2-209 dated the 8th of July
23 1995. It is a regular combat report sent by the Drina Corps command to
24 the Main
25 A. Yes, I can see that from the header.
1 Q. Let us have a look at the next page of the document.
2 [In English] Can we zoom to paragraph 9 of this document.
3 [Interpretation] Paragraph 9 bears the title "Requests sent by
4 the Drina Corps command to the Main Staff." Based on this document, what
5 was the request of the Drina Corps command that was sent to the Main
7 A. They were requesting that in a certain area, via the MUP -- and
8 they probably had in mind the top of the ministry -- to secure an
9 engagement of MUP forces in Zvornik that would serve as a reserve force
10 ready to intervene along the endangered axis. They are asking that the
11 Main Staff get in touch with the Ministry of the Interior. Under the law
12 it was supposed to be sent to the president first and then to the
13 ministry. They were requesting for certain MUP forces to be placed under
14 the command of the 1st BPBR, I think it is a brigade, and that such
15 forces should be ready to intervene along the axis.
16 Q. Which MUP unit does this refer to in particular? It mentions
18 A. You mean in slash brackets it says "their 1st Company."
19 Q. Yes. Thank you. I will no longer need this document. The next
20 document you also saw yesterday is P3792. I apologise, I'll skip this
21 document. Let's move directly to 4D337. We saw this order several
22 times. You also refer to it in paragraphs 191 and 195 of your report
23 where you mention the first PJP company. Bearing in mind the previous
24 document, was the 1st Company encompassed in this order as well as part
25 of this mixed unit referred to in the order?
1 A. Yes. It is the 1st Company of the PJP of the CJB in Zvornik.
2 And the same company is referred to in the other document.
3 Q. Therefore it is the same unit?
4 A. The same unit, yes. The same part of the unit.
5 Q. Let us now go to P62 which is another document we saw already.
6 Have a look at what units Mr. Vasic is reporting in this document -- is
7 reporting on in this document. Can we see the 1st Company there?
8 A. We can. Says that on the 13th of July at about 400 hours the
9 first PJP company of the Zvornik CJB had contact with a large enemy
11 Q. Therefore, my question is this: Mr. Vanderpuye from the
12 Prosecutor's Office offered a suggestion yesterday. Can this lead you to
13 presume that Mr. Vasic was the commander of the 1st Company? Could such
14 a possibility exist based on this document alone?
15 A. Well, one could say so but we all know that the 1st Company was
16 not under Dragomir Vasic's command, although he is referring to it in
17 this document. We know that it was a part of another unit.
18 Q. Let us now go back to P3792. You were asked yesterday to
19 explain --
20 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic, can you stay with this
21 document a little longer. This first PJP company is the part of the
22 unit, MUP unit under the command of Mr. Borovcanin at the time --
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Precisely so.
24 JUDGE KWON: -- while being resubordinated to the VRS. Where did
25 Mr. Vasic get this kind of information? From whom?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How should I know how he received
2 information? But I suppose that as the chief of public security services
3 centre in Zvornik, and also the commander of the PJP, he needed to be
4 informed about the deployment of the units that would be under his
5 command under certain different circumstances. It is a natural concern
6 of any chief of police to know where the first companies or any other
7 unit that falls under the jurisdiction of the PJP Zvornik. I find this
8 very logical.
9 JUDGE KWON: Let me put a bit simpler question, in a layman's
10 term. If this part of the MUP unit is resubordinated to the VRS and so
11 to speak had become a part of military, why did Mr. Vasic have to report
12 these things to his superior in police at all?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what chief in the
14 Ministry of the Interior would not report something about the losses in
15 one of the parts of the units of the police even if this unit is
16 resubordinated to the VRS. So if somebody got killed in that unit, it
17 would only be natural for the superior to show concern. It's a very
18 human concern.
19 JUDGE KWON: So one can say Mr. Borovcanin is due to report to
20 his superior what had happened in common sense -- for common sensical
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not duty-bound, but it was
23 common sense, as you put it, and it was normal for Mr. Vasic to report
24 that a member was killed. I don't know where he received his information
25 from but in a situation like this, it is only normal for people to
1 exchange information of this kind.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll continue with this when we reconvene.
3 The break will be of 30 minutes, please. Thank you.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I believe that I will have just
8 like five more minutes.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, I'll have to go back to a document
10 in order to avoid a source of confusion. This is 4D327. We just had it
11 in e-court just before the break, so I'd like to have it back if I could,
13 Could we please see page 2 of this document, bullet point 9 that
14 we discussed before the break. When we analysed this bullet point 9, we
15 skipped a part and it says here that due to the possibility of enemy
16 attacks in the northwestern part of the front, particularly from the
17 Kalesija, Kladanj, and Olovo directions, this is the axis that we may
18 have omitted and this is the direction from which the danger may come and
19 then in the last part it says that they would be the reserve forces for
20 the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade on standby to intervene along the
21 endangered axis. We would like to state this just before -- because of
22 the axis. Yesterday when Mrs. Fauveau showed you a document about the
23 engagement of the 1st Company on the Kalesija-Kladanj-Olovo axis, this
24 would be the same axis that is mentioned in this document, isn't that
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Very well, and then the next document that I would like us to
3 look at is 4D323. We've already spoken about the contents of the
4 dispatch is, what they should contain and what they should read.
5 However, this document is interesting for different reasons. I would
6 like to look at the second paragraph of this dispatch where it says: "On
7 the 6th of July 1995, at 1000 hours enemy units carried out an infantry
8 attack from the direction of Srebrenica into the Zeleni Jadar sector,
9 Skelani municipality. Two VRS soldiers were wounded in the attack." The
10 last bit is particularly important. It transpires from this document
11 that Mr. Vasic informs about the wounded VRS soldiers, wouldn't that be
13 A. Yes, it would.
14 Q. Of course we know that Mr. Vasic was not the VRS commander.
15 However, he builds into his report information about the VRS soldiers who
16 had been wounded?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And now I would like to deal with the last topic that I wanted to
19 tackle in my re-examination. Yesterday you were asked about the possible
20 participation of units from Serbia
21 26863, and you were also asked about Mr. Tomislav Kovac. My learned
22 friend from the Prosecution asked you about Mr. Kovac, who he was and
23 what function he held. This is on page 26852.
24 You were also asked some follow-up questions about the command
25 relationship with regard to the units who were deployed in the Trnovo
1 frontline, I'm talking about the Skorpija, the Kajmans and others that
2 were mentioned. I am now going to read to you, actually, to show to you
3 parts of the testimony by Mr. Tomislav Kovac in the Skorpija case, the
4 case against Skorpija unit members that was heard before the Special
5 Court in Belgrade
6 disclosed in June 2007 and served as the basis for stipulation between
7 the Defence and the Prosecution with this regard. I would first like to
8 read to you a very short excerpt from the testimony of Kovac which is on
9 page 32/86 dated 3rd July 2006
10 I apologise, first of all, I'm going to quote from page 34. The
11 judge says -- Mr. [Indiscernible], presiding judge, he says the
12 following: Here Commander Medic whom we heard, here he says that the
13 commander of that unit himself, he is the commander of that unit. "I
14 don't have any superiors there but General Milosevic as the commander of
15 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps." It transpires from this that Mr. Medic
16 says that his only commander was General Milosevic from the
17 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, wouldn't that be correct?
18 A. If that's what it says in the record from the trial, then it --
19 that's correct.
20 Q. And just one more quote with this regard, this is on page 32/86.
21 Witness Tomislav Kovac says the following: "I've already explained that
22 on many occasions before some other courts simply the lack of precision
23 in leading this unit as the MUP of Serbia by Sinisa Satinovic [phoen],
24 the others did that on purpose, they planted the MUP of Serbia because of
25 allegedly a moral situation, the fighters down there then were under the
1 impression is that we were assisted by the MUP Serbia which was not
2 correct. They did not assist us, Milosevic actually blocked us and led
3 us to a pit fall and to defeat and that is the truth. Obviously
4 Milosevic referred to herein as Slobodan Milosevic rather than General
5 Milosevic. We want to avoid any confusion."
6 Now that I've just quoted back to you some parts of Mr. Kovac's
7 testimony in the Skorpija case, I do know that you do not know the facts
8 but would this be a possible explanation as to what units these were,
9 whose units these were and under whose command they acted in June 1995 at
10 Trnovo frontline.
11 A. Bearing in mind Mr. Kovac's function at the time as the deputy
12 Minister of the Interior, I would not doubt his claims. I'm sure that he
13 was aware of the situation and he obviously adhered to his statement
14 given before the Court, and that would be my answer to your question sir.
15 Q. I suppose that you know as much to know that every statement in
16 court is given under oath in Serbia
17 A. I don't have any personal experience of that. I've never had
18 anything to do with Serbian courts. My first experience with any court
19 is with the Tribunal here, but I know that you have to take an oath
20 before starting a testimony. I did the same here.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bajagic, I have
22 no further questions for you.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE KWON: Professor Bajagic, I'm asking this question because
1 you are an expert in police. If a police officer while in service
2 committed a crime, is he to be tried in civilian court or a special court
3 like military court?
4 A. A member of the Ministry of the Interior who commits a crime
5 under normal circumstances would be tried in civilian court. I don't
6 know of any special court that would deal only with members of the
7 Ministry of the Interior. It would be a civilian court.
8 JUDGE KWON: What do you mean by normal circumstances, under
9 normal circumstances? For example, in special circumstances such as the
10 case of resubordination, is that police officer tried to be -- is to be
11 tried by the military court or by the civilian court?
12 A. If we are talking about resubordination, we said that they no
13 longer have a police authorities, they are regarded as members of the
14 army and I believe that it would be military courts who would be in
15 charge of such MUP members.
16 JUDGE KWON: Do you think you can find the reference for your
17 statement in the rules or the laws?
18 A. I did not analyse any documents of the sort. I did not deal
19 with the structures of court or criminal law in my report, but I'm sure
20 that there are documents but I wouldn't know anything about them, I
21 wouldn't be able to quote any.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe I can just assist. We have another expert
23 witness who deals precisely with these topics. This is his only topic of
24 his expert report. This is not the topic for this expert so you will
25 have the opportunity to hear all these relevant laws and all the relevant
1 documents which that deal with the topic of the criminal responsibility
2 in all these circumstances.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think in relation
6 to two issues that were raised by Justice Kwon we have a couple of
7 questions that I think that are integral and responsive to the issues
8 that were raised on the redirect examination. I would ask permission to
9 put to the witness just a couple of questions.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't want to interrupt, but I think having heard
11 Mr. Lazarevic, even ad hoc expert is going to come over to testify on
12 these things. What are your questions?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have two questions in particular. One has to
14 do with the responsibilities of Mr. Borovcanin in particular with respect
15 to his presence or observation of crimes that are occurring during his
16 resubordination into the VRS. The second has do with his obligations
17 under the rules of conduct of the VRS or under the rules of conduct of
18 the Ministry of Interior with respect to the Geneva Conventions, and that
19 was particular question which was put by the Court for which an answer
20 was not obtained in the record.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, these are precisely two topics that
22 are covered by other expert witness, precisely these two topics which are
23 covered by another expert. Furthermore, I believe that the witness
24 already said that he is not familiar with the criminal proceedings with
25 all these kind of things.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: These are not exactly criminal proceedings, the
2 questions that Mr. Vanderpuye is proposing.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Also the VRS regulation. He basically said that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let me confer with my colleagues.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So our Solomnonic solution to the dispute,
7 Professor, I'm taking matters in our hand. Take the first question that
8 Mr. Vanderpuye would like to put to you, namely --
9 THE INTERPRETER: You are kindly requested to turn off the
10 microphones that are not being used. You are kindly requested to turn
11 off the microphones that are not being used.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: He is not receiving interpretation?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you receiving interpretation now? All right,
16 so I will start again. We are taking matters in our hand for the time
17 being and would like to know whether you are in a position in any case to
18 answer either or both of the two questions that Mr. Vanderpuye would like
19 to put to you. The first one presumably has do, according to
20 Mr. Vanderpuye, with the responsibilities of Mr. Borovcanin in
21 particular, in particular with respect to his presence or observations of
22 crimes that are occurring during his resubordination into the VRS. So
23 this is a very broad question. Taking the situation when Mr. Borovcanin
24 and his -- the component of his team have been resubordinated into the
25 VRS, what are or what would be Mr. Borovcanin's responsibilities in
1 respect to his presence or observation of crimes that occur during that
2 time? Can you answer that question?
3 A. I can't answer competently to your two questions. Yourself, Your
4 Honour, have noticed that your questions are rather broad and I am really
5 not competent to deal with anything that has to do anything with the
6 system of courts and criminal responsibility.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not precisely a question or relating to
8 courts and criminal responsibility although limitedly so. From your
9 knowledge as an expert on police, and you have spoken also of the
10 situation when police units are resubordinated to the VRS, are you aware
11 of what the responsibilities of Mr. Borovcanin in those circumstances
12 would be if he comes to know of the commission of crimes? Do you know
13 what his responsibilities would be?
14 A. I analysed the police and everything else until the moment of
15 resubordination. At the moment when Mr. Borovcanin was resubordinated, I
16 did not go on analysing his responsibility because it falls under the
17 domain of some rules and regulations that exist in the army. I know that
18 the army had its own courts, but I really never dealt with the details
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The second question that Mr. Vanderpuye
21 wished to put to you relates to what would be the obligations of
22 Mr. Borovcanin under the rules of conduct of the VRS or under the rules
23 of conduct of the Ministry of the Interior with regard to the Geneva
24 Convention. This was put to you before by Judge Kwon, if I remember
25 well, and it's alleged that you did not give an answer to this. Is there
1 a reason why you didn't give an answer? Are you in a position to give an
2 answer now?
3 A. No, I actually have not noticed that I did not answer your
4 question. I'm sorry that my answer was not more complete, but I suppose
5 that if Mr. Borovcanin was resubordinated to the Army Republika Srpska,
6 that within the system of the army, there were rules that regulated such
7 instances should they be noticed. If that was your question.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I think we can conclude here.
9 Judge Kwon? Judge Stole? And the other questions you may wish to put,
10 you will put them to the other expert that will turn up later on.
11 Professor Bajagic, I wish to thank you very much on behalf of the
12 Trial Chamber for having come over and being patient with us these days
13 that you've been testifying. I also wish you a safe journey back home.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic, documents?
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I would like to ask to postpone the
18 discussion on documents. We were unable to prepare all the documents.
19 We will be ready to discuss this tomorrow because it is a large number of
20 documents with this witness, so this is one of the things that I wanted
21 to raise but I was waiting for Mr. Bajagic to finish his evidence here.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Do you have any serious objection,
23 Mr. Vanderpuye?
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I addressed --
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I have no objection.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: The Miletic team wishes to tender some documents,
4 the four of them, a list has been circulated. Any objections?
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: No objections.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections from your part, Mr. Vanderpuye?
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So these are being admitted. Okay. The
9 understanding is that since for 5D1318, 5D1320 and 5D1321 we only have a
10 draft translation, in other words they have not yet been officially
11 translated, for the time being they will be marked for identification and
12 they will graduate to full exhibit status as soon as that is ready.
13 No other documents, I take it? No, no, I'm checking with the
14 Defence teams. No other documents. Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye?
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I do have a few but I'll be happy
16 to deal with it when Mr. Lazarevic is prepared to proceed, if that's all
17 right with the Court.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay with you? All right. Okay.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, there is one small issue before we
22 start the next witness. I already addressed this issue to my colleagues
23 from the Prosecution, they say they don't mind. With our next witness I
24 intend to use three documents which are not on our 65 ter list, and I
25 would like to ask for permission for these three documents to be added to
1 our list. These are three photographs of certain area. And these are
2 4D547, 4D593 and 4D594. They were disclosed to the Prosecution, I think,
3 three or four days ago. Two days ago, I apologise, I don't want to
4 mislead anyone, and we already had a chance to discuss these earlier this
5 morning and they said they have no problem but I would like them to --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- state their position for the transcript.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Silence from everyone means a confirmation of that,
9 that there is no opposition, objection. Let's proceed. Next witness,
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I apologise, can we have just a
12 5-minute break, because I intend to examine this witness also in chief,
13 just to collect my documents and my question for this witness. We
14 just --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- had a much longer session with Mr. Bajagic
17 than we expected.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll have a 5 -- 5 minutes is enough?
19 We'll have a 5-minute break. Thank you.
20 --- Break taken at 11.32 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ready to go. The witness.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honours, we are ready.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, to you, Mr. Zaric.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You are welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to
3 start giving evidence as a Defence witness for accused Borovcanin in this
4 case. Before you start your testimony you are required under our rules
5 to make a solemn declaration that in the course of your testimony, you
6 will be speaking the truth. Madam Usher is going to give you the text of
7 the solemn declaration, please read it out aloud and that will be your
8 commitment with us.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Please make yourself
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic will go first. He will then be
15 followed by others on cross-examination. Mr. Lazarevic.
16 WITNESS: ZARKO ZARIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zaric. I apologise for making you wait
20 yesterday and today. It was because we were unable to complete our
21 previous witness before that time. However, we may go ahead now.
22 Although, we've met already, I want to introduce myself for the record.
23 My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic together with Mr. Gosnell and Mrs. Cmeric
24 I appear on behalf of Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin before this Tribunal.
25 For the record, please state your first and last name.
1 A. Zarko Zaric.
2 Q. [No interpretation]?
3 A. The 9th of July 1966.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Mr. Lazarevic's
5 question was, "What was your date of birth?"
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Where were you born?
8 A. The village of Nezuk
9 Q. Where did you attend school?
10 A. The first four grades of primary school I completed in
11 Baljkovica, Zvornik municipality. Between the 4th and 8th grade I went
12 to school in sotna [phoen], Zvornik municipality.
13 Q. After that did you complete any other schools?
14 A. Yes, the high school for workers in the catering industry in
16 Q. Where do you reside now?
17 A. In Zvornik in Braca Jugovic Street 3A1/2.
18 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to your career. What was your first
20 A. In 1985, I worked in a private catering establishment for a brief
21 period of time of about a year. Then I worked for the catering company
22 Stati [phoen] Zvornik and I stayed with that company until 1991. After
23 that I worked in a bar, private bar in Zvornik until the war broke out.
24 Q. Concerning your activities during the war, we'll discuss those
25 later. Can you tell us where do you work currently?
1 A. I work at the public security station in Zvornik as an expert in
3 Q. What was your engagement during the war in Bosnia?
4 A. It was on the 4th of April 1992 when I became a member of the
5 reserve police force in Zvornik. When the war broke out, I was in Nezuk,
6 which is my birth place. I was there until late May or early June 1992.
7 In June that year, I received a weapon and equipment at the police
8 station in Zvornik. My job there lasted until 1994 when I attended a
9 police course in -- at Jahorina. I spent three months there attending
10 lectures, then I returned to Zvornik for three months and had three more
11 months of training in activities on the ground.
12 In 1994, I was sent to attend another course, which is to be a
13 dog trainer, in Crepoljsko near Sarajevo
14 Sorry, late 1994. In early 1995, I was a policeman in the Zvornik police
15 station. That lasted until the 13th of July, when I was wounded as a
17 Q. Very well. You've explained to us your career more or less
18 during that period. In July 1995, what were your duties as a member of
19 the police station in Zvornik?
20 A. I was on the beat patrolling the town of Zvornik, securing
21 buildings and doing other regular police tasks.
22 Q. Very well. You were talking about your regular police duties
23 that you had as a policeman. Did you also have certain duties as a
24 member of the PJP unit of the public security station in Zvornik?
25 A. I was a member of the 1st PJP Company in Zvornik.
1 Q. That was the 1st PJP Zvornik Company. Can you tell us whether it
2 was divided into any smaller parts, and if so, which part did you belong
4 A. The company comprised three platoons, and then in turn, the
5 platoons were comprised of detachments or squads.
6 Q. Who commanded the 1st PJP Company of Zvornik at the public
7 security centre there?
8 A. It was Mr. Radomir Pantic.
9 Q. Did he have a deputy, and if so, who was it?
10 A. As the company commander, he had a deputy. It was Mr. Radoslav
11 Stuparevic, aka Raci.
12 Q. Who commanded your squad? Let's start with your platoon
13 commander first.
14 A. My platoon commander in the 1st Company was Mr. Marinko Ergic
15 [phoen] and my squad commander was Cvijan Ristic, aka Cviko.
16 Q. Let us look at a document. It is in e-court. I know you are not
17 familiar with that system, and unfortunately we did not have an
18 opportunity to acquaint you with the layout of the courtroom and the
19 functioning of the equipment. In any case, on the screen in front of you
20 there will appear the document that I want to discuss with you. Could we
21 please have 4D578 brought up in e-court.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we don't have translation of these
23 documents but it's basically only the list of names.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Zaric, have a look at the document. Can you tell us what it
2 says in the heading?
3 A. List of policemen of the 1st Company of the PJP of the CJB in
5 Q. Let's look under A, it says "company command." It is not
6 necessary to read for the record all of the names, but please have a look
7 at those yourself and then I will have a question for you. Were you able
8 to go through the names and does this correspond to the composition of
9 the first PJP company command, that is to say Pantic as the commander,
10 Stuparevic as deputy, so on?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. Thank you. Let us see the bottom part of the document next.
13 Very well. It says the first squad of the first platoon. Let's look at
14 item 5 on the document.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That is your name, isn't it?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Thank you. We will no longer need this document. Mr. Zaric, I
19 have a few questions concerning your regular police duties, as well as a
20 number of questions concerning your duties while you were a member of the
21 PJP unit. While you were performing your regular duties as a policeman
22 in the police station in Zvornik, what kind of uniform did you wear?
23 A. We wore a camouflage blue police uniform with insignia.
24 Q. When participating in combat as a PJP member, did you wear the
25 same uniform or some other?
1 A. For the most part we wore a camouflage or olive drab police
2 uniform with police insignia.
3 Q. I apologise, you said for the most part, does it mean that it was
4 so or not?
5 A. We always wore a camouflage green uniform with police insignia.
6 Q. In July 1995 did you hold any rank?
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. I have a few additional questions about the PJP unit. You said
9 you were a member of the 1st PJP company. Save for that PJP company,
10 were there any other such companies at the centre -- public security
11 centre in Zvornik?
12 A. The centre had five or six companies.
13 Q. You have already told us that your company commander was Radomir
14 Pantic. Within that PJP structure was there anyone who was senior to
15 Radomir Pantic?
16 A. At the level of the public security centre in Zvornik, it was
17 Mr. Zoljic [Realtime transcript read in error "Zvornic"] who was his
19 Q. Very well. We need to correct something in the transcript. The
20 last name is Zoljic.
21 I have a few more questions about the PJP and its 1st Company.
22 Did the 1st PJP company include only members of the police station in
23 Zvornik or were some of its members from other public security stations?
24 A. All companies included policemen from all stations within the
25 centre. Vlasenica, Sekovici, Milici, Skelani and of course the Zvornik
1 police station.
2 Q. As for your company commander, which police station did he come
3 from, the Zvornik one or some other? To be more precise, I wanted to say
4 the public security station.
5 A. He was the public security station commander in Milici.
6 Q. Very well, let us move to the 11th of July 1995. Where were you
7 on that day?
8 A. I was in Zvornik that day, until that afternoon.
9 Q. Did you at any point on the 11th of July -- were you summoned to
10 the police station?
11 A. In the afternoon, it may have been around 3.00 p.m. I received a
12 phone call. The police officer on duty at the Zvornik police station
13 called me and said that I should report to the station since I was to be
14 sent in the field. He also told me that I should bring my weapon and
15 equipment. I did so and reported to the duty officer in Zvornik.
16 Q. Were you told there and then where you were supposed to go, what
17 your duties would be or anything in that sense?
18 A. Only the 1st Company was in Zvornik, and the deputy commander of
19 the company Svijanica [phoen] told us that we would be sent to Bratunac.
20 Q. Were you told at all what your tasks would be once in Bratunac?
21 A. Nothing was told us about our future task when we were in
23 Q. Just one more question in order to complete this topic. Before
24 the 11th of July, did you ever before go to any field mission with the
25 1st Company of the PJP?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. So in practical terms, this was your first mission? Your first
3 field mission?
4 A. Yes, it was my first field mission.
5 Q. When you received the information and you mentioned your
6 equipment, what sort of equipment did you have in addition to the uniform
7 that you had changed? What was the equipment that you were told to bring
8 with you as members of the PJP?
9 A. We had a combat set with a total of five rounds of ammo, that was
10 our equipment. Or rather, five magazines of ammunition.
11 Q. Did you receive any other equipment save for the equipment that
12 you've just described?
13 A. No, we didn't get anything else.
14 Q. So you acted upon that order, and you arrived where?
15 A. We arrived in front of the police station in front of the centre
16 in Zvornik. The whole platoon gathered there. The first platoon from
17 the police station in Zvornik was also there and that's where a vehicle
18 awaited for us to take us to our field mission.
19 Q. When was it approximately when you gathered there as members of a
20 platoon of the 1st PJP Company?
21 A. It was around 1700 hours that we gathered there. I can't tell
22 you exact time, but it was sometime between 6.00 and 7.00 that we set out
23 for Bratunac.
24 Q. You have already told us, but can you please tell us again
25 whether you can remember the names of any of the members of your platoon
1 that were gathered there together with you?
2 A. Cvijan Ristic, Mile Vidovic, also known as Smit [phoen], Brano
3 Milanovic, Spasen Vakovic [phoen], also known as Spasen, Nenad Andric,
4 Nedo Koljvitovic [phoen], Nenad Filipovic.
5 Q. Very well, this should suffice, I just wanted to hear some names.
6 The persons that you just mentioned, were they all from Zvornik?
7 A. Yes, they were all from the police station in Zvornik.
8 Q. You've already told us that you had undergone training for police
9 dogs, handlers. Did you have a police dog at that time and if you did
10 did you take the dog with you into the field mission?
11 A. Yes, I had a dog in my police station but on that day I did not
12 take the dog with me.
13 Q. At one point you set out from Zvornik. Could you tell us what
14 kind of vehicle did you use to go to Bratunac?
15 A. It was a bus. A bus took us from that police station.
16 Q. Was it a normal bus that normal transported the 1st PJP Company
17 on its field mission?
18 A. Yes. The driver was a policeman who normally was on our string,
19 and bus belonged to the Drinatrans Company or some such company, but in
20 any case it was our driver who took us there.
21 Q. In any case when you set out from in front of the public security
22 centre in Zvornik in the direction of Bratunac, did Radomir Pantic, the
23 company commander, accompany you?
24 A. I don't think he was with us, or at least I don't remember.
25 Q. Very well. And now let me ask you, according to your best
1 recollection, when did you approximately arrive in Bratunac?
2 A. We arrived sometime in the evening or late in the afternoon.
3 After 7.00 in the evening, or maybe even 8.00. I can't remember.
4 Q. And just one more question about that. On the road from Zvornik
5 to Bratunac did you pull over anywhere, did you make a break?
6 A. Yes. I believe that we had a break in Konjevic Polje.
7 Q. What was the reason, why did you stop?
8 A. I believe that there we were joined by another part of the
9 company, maybe from Milicev [phoen] Vlasenica. They were all policemen
10 and they embarked on the same bus.
11 Q. And just one more thing, in Konjevic Polje was there a police
12 checkpoint there?
13 A. Yes, there was a police checkpoint.
14 Q. Very well. We are now in Bratunac, you have arrived by bus, can
15 you tell me where did the bus stop in Bratunac?
16 A. We arrived in the vicinity of the police station in Bratunac, the
17 public security station, that is. And this is where we got off the bus.
18 Q. So you are saying this is in the vicinity of the police station
19 that you got off the bus. Were there any other people there who had
20 arrived before or maybe they arrived subsequently? I'm talking about
21 other members of the 1st Company of the PJP that did not belong to the
22 police station in Zvornik.
23 A. Well, yes, that's where we all gathered. Some arrived before us,
24 some arrived after us but in any case, at one point we were all there.
25 Q. Mr. Zaric, when was the first time that you heard that the VRS
1 forces had taken Srebrenica?
2 A. I heard it in Bratunac that evening.
3 Q. Only after you arrived in Bratunac, you did not know that before?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. When you gathered in front of the police station in Bratunac, did
6 you, and if you did, who from, did you receive any instruction as to what
7 your mission would be, what tasks you would have?
8 A. The company commander gathered us, he told us not to split, to
9 stay put because there was a possibility for us to be sent towards Zuti
10 Most maybe the same evening or the following day. He did not specify
11 because he did not know. In any case, we were all there.
12 Q. Is that all that Commander Pantic told you? Did he say anything
14 A. We were told that we were supposed to receive complete
15 instructions once we got to Zuti Most but that there was a possibility
16 that there were groups or individuals in the forests around Bratunac,
17 that they were all probably armed and there was a lot of panic around
19 Q. And you already told us that Momir [as interpreted] Pantic told
20 you not to split, to stay put. Where did you spend the night between the
21 11th and the 12th of July 1995?
22 A. With a majority of the members of my company or at least my
23 platoon, I spent the night in a hall, I don't know whether it was a
24 school hall or some sports hall.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, stop, yes Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President. I just wanted to
2 clarify the record. There is a reference to a Momir Pantic. I believe
3 that's --
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I just noticed it, I know what my colleague
5 is referring to.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will clarify this with the witness.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And the witness can conclude his answer
9 if he hasn't finished as yet.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Here in the record, in the question that I put to you, there is a
12 misspelled name of Mr. Pantic. It is misspelled as Momir. Could you
13 please correct that as to have a clear record?
14 A. Radomir Pantic.
15 Q. Very well. Let's hear you continue your answer. You said that a
16 majority of the members of the 1st Company spent that night in a sports
17 hall and this is where you were interrupted.
18 A. I don't know whether it was a sports facility or a school
19 facility, but in any case, that's where I spent that night together with
20 the other members of my platoon.
21 Q. And in addition to the members of your unit, the 1st Company of
22 the PJP, were there any other people, any other members of a military
23 unit or a police unit?
24 A. No, not in that hall. Or at least I didn't see them.
25 Q. How long did you stay there, and what happened next?
1 A. We spent the night, and sometime around 4.00 in the morning, we
2 got up and the commander gathered all of us again. He lined up the
3 company. We got on a bus and we went in the direction of Zuti Most. And
4 right before Zuti Most, we took the right turning --
5 Q. Just a moment. So you got on a bus and you went in the direction
6 of Zuti Most?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said that it was in the morning around 4.00 in the morning
9 when you got up and approximately sometime after that you arrived in
10 front of Zuti Most. Could you please tell us about the weather condition
11 that prevailed when you arrived in the region in front of Zuti Most?
12 A. It was a foggy morning. It was foggy where we pulled over.
13 Q. And when you say that you pulled over in front of Zuti Most, I
14 suppose that we are talking in front of Zuti Most as we are looking from
15 the direction of Bratunac, am I correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the place where the bus stopped in front of Zuti Most, did any
18 of your commanders already meet you there, did any of them join you
20 A. All the commanders were there. The company commander, the deputy
21 company commander, and the platoon commander, they were all there.
22 Q. Did they tell you there and then anything about your tasks and
23 what you were supposed to do next?
24 A. Yes. We received our complete instruction. At that moment we
25 were told that we were supposed to scour the terrain right to the
1 Bratunac-Srebrenica road. We moved in depth on the right-hand side from
2 the road.
3 Q. Just a moment, I need some more questions about this particular
4 point before we move on. Tell me then, your task was to scour the
5 terrain. In the region to the right from Zuti Most, my first question
6 about that would be the following: That morning when you arrived, did
7 you notice any ambulance vehicle or any some such thing in the area where
8 the bus pulled over?
9 A. Yes, there was an ambulance on the asphalt road where our bus
10 stopped and from where we were supposed to into our mission on the right
11 side of the road.
12 Q. Just one more question. Did any of the commanders tell you
13 anything about the checkpoint of the United Nations or anything with that
14 regard, could you please explain?
15 A. The morning was foggy and we could not see that checkpoint in
16 front of us. But then the company commander told us that there was an
17 UNPROFOR checkpoint and that we should pay special attention to it, that
18 we should be mindful of it, that we should avoid any possible conflicts
19 with them or any sort of communication with them, for that matter.
20 Q. Thus he informed you that under no circumstances you should
21 engage with UN members?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. On that day, we are talking about the 12th of July 1995, did
24 there come a time when you did engage with UNPROFOR or members of the
25 Dutch battalion, to be more precise?
1 A. No. We did not have any contacts with them.
2 Q. Very well. You have told us that the unit's task was to scour
3 the terrain from the right from Zuti Most. Could you explain your
4 formation when you set out?
5 A. When we got off the buses and when we received the order, we were
6 walking in a single file in the depth of the terrain of some 300 or even
7 more metres. I remember that there was a house there and we reached that
8 house. On the left-hand side there was a ditch or a bank, this is where
9 we stopped, because we used that as our shelter or shield. This is where
10 we were supposed to stop and wait for further orders.
11 Q. Let's hear a few more things and then we will ask you for some
12 more details based on some photos that you were shown.
13 When you started on your mission, did something happen that
14 hindered the progress of your mission for awhile?
15 A. We stayed in front of that house for awhile in order to wait for
16 the demining squad who were supposed to take us through the minefield
17 from where we had to continue, or rather, start our scouring mission.
18 However, a gentleman unknown to me, a deminer, sapa [phoen], took a group
19 of some ten or dozen people through that minefield, and on his return --
20 when he was returning to take the other group, he stepped on a mine and
21 that hindered our progress.
22 Q. Were you in the first group that the deminer led through the
23 field or not?
24 A. No, I was not. I stayed behind.
25 Q. Do you remember what became of that deminer who was supposed to
1 clear your passage after he stepped on the mine and got injured?
2 A. An ambulance arrived and took him away. We didn't know precisely
3 what happened to him. In any case we learned later that he died.
4 Q. Let us move to the next document. It is 4D557.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: We have draft translation of this document
6 although it's a list of names but just for everyone to have it. It just
7 says here soldiers of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade from 8 of
8 April 1992. If I could have the assistance of --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: It's for distribution?
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- Madam Usher with this.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. If it's for distribution let's have it
12 distributed. Otherwise we'll put a copy on the ELMO.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can we please zoom in on the upper half of the document. I'm
15 particularly interested in number 11. Very well. Mr. Zaric, you have
16 told us already that the person who was injured that day was someone you
17 didn't know, but look at item 11, it says Dragan Andric, father's name
18 Krstonije. It says the 2nd Infantry Battalion, his year of birth and
19 Bratunac and Tanasici. In the sixth column it says the date when killed.
20 It reads the 12th of July 1995. Followed by a remark saying that the
21 soldier was killed while demining a minefield. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If you look at the date and manner in which his death occurred,
24 does it tally with what you were able to observe on that day near Zuti
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 Q. Thank you, I believe we will no longer need the document. The
3 accident that happened involving the Bratunac Brigade soldier, how long
4 did that hold you back from advancing?
5 A. After the initial group of ten had passed, he tried to return and
6 then he was injured. That period lasted for about half an hour and we
7 were no longer able to advance after that.
8 Q. So you said you set out single file. Did you change formation?
9 A. After he was killed, we returned to the old formation, single
10 file, to try to avoid the minefield. After a dirt road, we finally
11 spread out and we stood next to each other. This was a regular formation
12 used when searching terrain.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I don't think we will be able to
14 deal with the next document in a minute or two that we have until the
15 break so ...
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you and we've been exchanging
17 views in the meantime. We have decided to cut down the next break from
18 25 minutes to 20. Thank you.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zaric, let us look at the next document that
24 is about to appear before you. I will ask you to mark a few things on
25 it. However, I will need some assistance from the usher and this is
1 document 4D547. It is an aerial image of the general area of Zuti Most
2 and entrance to Potocari.
3 The image originates from the cadastre office in Bosnia and
5 wanted you to look at the picture so as to be able to indicate to you the
6 objects in the general area. On the left-hand side, there is Bratunac --
7 sorry, I didn't mean to lead. The road -- to which side does the road
8 lead you to Bratunac and to Srebrenica?
9 A. To the left-hand side -- if I may have a moment. If the thing
10 marked is Zuti Most, then on my left-hand side -- well, somewhere around
11 here we stopped with the bus.
12 Q. Could you please mark that?
13 A. Around here. And we began moving to the right.
14 Q. We will see that in the following images, but here you should
15 mark the place where you stopped the bus with a number 1. Can you also
16 draw an arrow to indicate your direction of movement. In the following
17 few images, we'll be able to see that better. For the time being, could
18 you please initial the photograph in the lower right-hand corner. Just
19 above that --
20 A. [Marks].
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And the date, yes.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. -- place today's date, please. The 9th of the 10th.
24 A. What year?
25 Q. I think it should suffice if you just put 08. Very well, could
1 we please save the image and let us move to the next document.
2 The next document I would like us to look at is 4D593. This
3 document is an image taken by Defence recently. It was taken from
4 elevation point 438. To remind the Bench, this elevation was mentioned
5 by Mr. Mico Gavric who was one of Mr. Nikolic's Defence witnesses.
6 Mr. Zaric, you can see the photograph. The day before yesterday
7 during your proofing you had occasion to see it. First of all, mark on
8 this photograph the direction of your unit during the search operation.
9 A. I believe we got off the bus here and we followed this route, in
10 that direction.
11 Q. Please make the line longer so as to have a clear indication of
12 the movement of the unit.
13 A. In this part. I think around here there was the minefield.
14 Q. As best you can remember, could you please indicate where the
15 minefield was?
16 A. Around this area.
17 Q. Could you place a 1 next to the location of the minefield?
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Very well. The next thing I want to ask you about the photograph
20 is this. Could you approximately mark the place where the UNPROFOR
21 checkpoint was?
22 A. I think the checkpoint was around here and we came from this
23 direction which is out of the photograph. I think it was around here.
24 Q. Please place a 2 just above that.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. Could we please save the image, but first I need the witness to
2 initial the photograph in the lower right-hand corner and please put a
3 date there as well.
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. For the record witness marked number 1 the place where the
6 minefield was, he placed the number 2 next to the location of the
7 DutchBat checkpoint. Could we save the document now so that I could move
8 to the next photograph, please.
9 The next photograph is 4D594. It is another photograph taken by
10 Defence from elevation 438, we just mentioned. It basically follows on
11 the previous photograph.
12 Mr. Zaric, you have seen this photograph before during the
13 proofing. I would kindly ask you to mark the direction of your unit as
14 you went further in the course of your search operation.
15 A. We came from this part here and we used it to search the terrain.
16 We searched this whole area.
17 Q. Please place an arrow at the end of the dotted line.
18 A. [Marks].
19 Q. Of course this photograph was taken from an elevation and it
20 should be kept in mind when looking at the markings.
21 When you completed your search operation, where did you come out
22 on to the asphalt road between Bratunac and Srebrenica so that we can
23 conclude using the photographs and continue with your testimony?
24 A. On this photograph, well, we came from this direction and then
25 back to the asphalt road, Bratunac-Srebrenica. We came out on the road
1 around here.
2 Q. Very well. Could you put number 1 here?
3 A. At the end or at the beginning?
4 Q. At the end of that route. And like with the previous two photos,
5 could you place the date and your initials in the lower right-hand side
7 A. [Marks].
8 Q. Could the photo please be saved, and for the record, this should
9 be retained as number 1 marking the place where the witness and his unit
10 came down on to the asphalt road. I apologise, before we save this
11 photo, I just wanted to clarify one more thing while we still have the
12 photo on the screen.
13 When the unit was deployed, where were you deployed, you
15 A. From the moment when we were deployed in a line, I was on the far
16 right-hand side so this is where my position was on the right wing.
17 Q. Could you please mark that for the record.
18 A. It would have been around here.
19 Q. Put number 2 next to that.
20 A. I believe that it is off the photo.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you receiving interpretation or not? My mic is
22 on so I don't know. Can you hear me now or not? Okay. Then probably I
23 wasn't quick enough. Or I was too quick. All right. Let's proceed.
24 But you see the problem, the problem is that once --
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I understand the problem.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: -- it's been saved, you cannot put any more marks
2 or it can become a new document, in other words. Okay.
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. In that case, could
4 this be saved as it is and can we retrieve a new photo and save it as a
5 new document.
6 [In English] something else that I had in mind. Since this is
7 marked we can save it again and this should be a new document. And they
8 will have two different numbers.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Why complicate it that way. Let's have a new
10 document. There's no point in having a new document with all the
11 previous markings on it. It will only complicate things.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. We have an unmarked
13 photo in e-court then.
14 Q. Could you now please mark the place where you were, personally?
15 A. It would be on the very right-hand side but I believe that it is
16 even off this photo.
17 Q. Very well. I believe that the document may be saved now. And I
18 don't think we will need the document anymore.
19 Now that we have seen and marked the terrain through which you
20 moved, I would like to ask you certain number of questions about your
21 mission which was scouring the terrain. Tell me, please, did you receive
22 any orders from the company commander or some other officers in the
23 company about your task and what you were supposed to do?
24 A. Our concrete task was to scour the terrain and in case we found a
25 group of individuals who were armed, we would have been supposed to
1 engage in combat. And as for the rest, nothing else was ordered.
2 Nothing special.
3 Q. In other words, if you had come across members of the enemy army,
4 you would have engaged. Did anything came up with regard to civilians,
5 did you have any special orders with the regard to the civilians?
6 A. If we were to come across civilians, we were not to pay any
7 attention to them. We should have just proceeded and minded our own
8 business, so to speak.
9 Q. During that operation, which was scouring the terrain, did you at
10 any point in time come across members of the BiH Army or civilians?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And did you perhaps find any traces pointing to the fact that
13 members of the BH Army had been there?
14 A. There were their defence trenches connected with communication
15 trenches. They were all up there in the villages.
16 Q. How long did your scouring operation last?
17 A. It lasted up until between 1300 and 1400 hours. Around 1300
18 hours we received an order to withdraw and to return to the asphalt road.
19 Q. We have had an occasion to see these photos before and the way I
20 understand your testimony, this is a rather hilly terrain above the
21 Bratunac-Srebrenica road. From the point that you marked on the photo
22 where you were, could you see the DutchBat base in Potocari?
23 A. No, I couldn't see it from where I was standing.
24 Q. Was there any obstruction that prevented your view?
25 A. The configuration of the ground prevented me from having a better
1 view. There are some houses, some villages, so I could not get a clear
2 view of the asphalt road at all.
3 Q. Very well. You have told us that at one point you came down from
4 the hills and that you ended on the Bratunac-Srebrenica asphalt road.
5 Could you tell me how far away was that from the DutchBat base?
6 A. It was on our left-hand side some 200 metres away from our route
7 of descent. 150 to 200 metres, thereabouts.
8 Q. This mean that is you came down on the road some 200 metres away
9 from the base?
10 A. Yes, from the base in the direction of Bratunac.
11 Q. The base was on the right-hand said then?
12 A. Yes, it was.
13 Q. As you descended on the asphalt road and arrived there, could you
14 see from that place that in the base and around the United Nations base
15 there was a large number of refugees who had gathered there?
16 A. Yes, I could see it well from there.
17 Q. Did you personally at any point in time approach the civilians
18 who were gathered there?
19 A. No. We even had an order from our company commander not to
20 approach them and not to mingle, not to mix with them.
21 Q. Very well then. Tell me please, you said that you had an order
22 not to do that, but do you know if any other members of your unit
23 approached the civilians?
24 A. No, I wouldn't know of anybody approaching the civilians. None
25 of our policemen did as far as I know.
1 Q. As you descended on the road, did any of the commanders, and I'm
2 referring to the 1st Company, accompany you, was anybody with you?
3 A. Commander Pantic was next to the bus that was waiting for us
4 there. He waited for us there on the asphalt road. And the platoon
5 commander was with us all the time. He was basically walking next to me.
6 I'm talking about Cvijan Ristic.
7 Q. And when you descended on the asphalt road, how long did you stay
9 A. In light of the fact that I was the furthest away and I was the
10 last to come down, I believe the whole group stayed between 15 and 20
11 minutes, not more than that as far as I can remember. That's how long we
12 spent by the bus.
13 Q. And tell me what were you doing while you were standing on the
15 A. Our task was together to get on the bus because we had an order,
16 a commander's order to return to Bratunac.
17 Q. And let me ask you this, while you were on the road, could you
18 possibly see the arrival of a certain number of lorries and buses who
19 were approaching the DutchBat base in Potocari?
20 A. Yes, we encountered a few empty buses headed towards Srebrenica,
21 towards the base.
22 Q. Did you have an occasion to see that the buses transported
23 refugees from Potocari?
24 A. I did not have an occasion to see that. I saw a somewhat smaller
25 convoy later in the afternoon.
1 Q. Very well then. At what point in time, and you've already told
2 us about the bus, you got on the bus and you left the area. Was that the
3 same bus or did you use some other sort of transportation?
4 A. We used the same bus to go to the public security station in
6 Q. So you arrived in front of the police station in Bratunac. Could
7 you please tell us how long you stayed there. How much time did you
8 spend in front of the police station in Bratunac?
9 A. We stayed a bit longer time. Maybe five hours, after which we
10 started gathering for our next mission. We had been told that we were
11 supposed to leave for Konjevic Polje and Sandici and it was sometime
12 around 6.00 that we set out on that mission.
13 Q. Very well. And what did you do while you were in Bratunac?
14 A. We had to stay put and await our further orders.
15 Q. So you have told us that at one point this time, sometime later
16 in the afternoon you left Bratunac. Tell me, please, did you use the
17 same bus again?
18 A. Yes, we used the same bus to leave Bratunac and go in the
19 direction of Konjevic Polje or rather Sandici.
20 Q. You have already told us that your company was taken to Sandici.
21 Had you ever been there before, were you familiar with the area of
23 A. No, I'd never been there before. It was only after my arrival
24 there that I learned that the place was actually called Sandici.
25 Q. So you arrived at a place called Sandici, you got off the bus and
1 what happened next? Was your unit deployed and how was it deployed if it
3 A. As we arrived in Sandici, we received an order to deploy in a
4 line along the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road so as to have Konjevic Polje
5 on our right-hand side and Bratunac on our left-hand side. Actually, we
6 made a defence line to prevent a group or the army to cut off that road
7 and get behind our backs in the Serbian villages that were there.
8 Q. And during that night between the 12th and 13th of July, did you
9 stay in the same place where you were originally deployed as soon as you
10 arrived there?
11 A. I remained there until sometime between 3.00 and 400 in the
12 morning on the 13th, that is when I was wounded.
13 Q. Very well, let me ask this: You have told us that your task was
14 to make a defence line and secure the road and the villages that were
15 behind you. Who told you what your task was?
16 A. It was Commander Pantic who told us that there was a possibility
17 that groups or individuals or larger groups that were armed could
18 approach and try and break through the road and enter the villages that
19 were behind our line.
20 Q. Did anybody point to the direction from which that break-through
21 of the Muslim forces might have been expected?
22 A. As you are looking towards Bratunac, it should have been our
23 left-hand side. It's a hilly and wooded area that was on our left-hand
25 Q. Very well then.
1 [In English] As you are looking from Bratunac this is what the
2 witness said, not towards Bratunac.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We'll take note of that.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So you were taken there to Sandici, the unit was deployed along
6 the road and in the course of that evening from the moment when you were
7 deployed and further on, what did you observe in terms of traffic on that
9 A. We arrived at dusk and the intensity of traffic was somewhat
10 lower. We could pass by and I noticed just one convoy that I've already
11 mentioned consisting of some 3, 4, maybe 5 buses that were escorted by
12 UNPROFOR and passed by us.
13 Q. Did you pay any attention to the people transported on that
15 A. As far as I could see, those were predominantly women Muslims
16 mostly who were on those buses. And maybe some elderly men, perhaps.
17 Q. At the place where you were, was there any facility nearby and if
18 there was, could you describe it?
19 A. Vis-a-vis my position and looking towards the enemy side on the
20 left-hand side there was a house, a destroyed house.
21 Q. During the deployment and afterwards, were you able to observe
22 any members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
23 A. No, I didn't see any members of the army of B&H.
24 Q. How long did you stay there?
25 A. I stayed there until the moment I was wounded, which was around
1 4.00 in the morning of the 13th.
2 Q. Did you or any other members of your units have any direct combat
3 contact with the enemy?
4 A. On our side there was no contact until the moment I was wounded.
5 Q. Were you alone in that location or were there any other members
6 of your unit with you?
7 A. There were other members. To my right it was Nenad Andric who
8 was wounded on the same occasion. Next to him was Nenad Filipovic, also
9 wounded. Then there was a guy whose name I don't know, he was killed.
10 He came from the Bratunac platoon. Next to him was Ikonic and the rest.
11 In any case these people were there with me.
12 Q. During the night did any army B&H members surrender to you?
13 A. While I was there no one did.
14 Q. Do you know whether anyone surrendered to any of your colleagues
15 from the company?
16 A. Not as far as I know.
17 Q. Until the moment when you were wounded, were you able to see or
18 hear anything that may have been taking place in the hills?
19 A. Between the moment I arrived and when I was wounded, one could
20 hear shooting all the time varying in intensity. In any case, you could
21 hear shooting in front of us basically all the time.
22 Q. As you were on the bus from Bratunac to Sandici along the way
23 were you able to observe if any VRS or police units were there before
24 reaching Sandici?
25 A. There were soldiers, I don't know from which unit. In any case,
1 they wore camouflage uniforms. And I'd say there were many of them along
2 the way.
3 Q. Can you tell us what happened early in the morning on the 13th of
5 A. At a certain point after a short lull, I felt an explosion, after
6 which I felt I was hit in the leg. And then it was followed by bursts of
7 gunfire in front of us and my colleagues returned fire. After that
8 moment I don't remember much. It's all hazy. I only remember being
9 placed in the car and taken back to Bratunac to receive some first aid.
10 Q. You felt you had been hit and you were also only partly
11 conscious. Do you know how, by what means were you transferred from the
12 place where you were wounded?
13 A. It was a Golf passenger car. Darker in colour, I think.
14 Q. Do you know where you were taken?
15 A. I was taken to the health centre in Bratunac and administered
16 first aid.
17 Q. Could we please look at 4DP1892. It is a log of the health
18 centre in Bratunac. Page 29 in the B/C/S. Can you see the document in
19 front of you?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. Look at the first line, the first entry is 1483, is this you when
22 you look at the date of birth, name and father's name?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In the first column it says it was on the 13th of July 1995 at
25 045 hours. 45 hours after midnight
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The last column that was filled in says special police Zvornik.
3 Were you a member of the special police?
4 A. No, we were policemen members of the first PJP police unit.
5 Q. When you were brought to Bratunac, how long did you stay there
6 and what was going on with you?
7 A. As far as I recall, because I was only partly conscious, they
8 immobilized my leg and transported me to Zvornik. I may have remained in
9 Bratunac for about an hour.
10 Q. Thank you. Let us move to the next document which is 1DP1891.
11 Page 271 in the B/C/S and page 19 in the English version.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm being told that the document is under seal. So
13 there will be no broadcast. Okay.
14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise that I did not pay attention, I'm
16 Q. [Interpretation] Sir --
17 [In English] This is not the page that I wanted. It's page 271
18 in order. This is the page that I need bears ERN number 01180277.
19 [Interpretation] Very well. The date is the 13th of July 1995.
20 Please look at the entry beginning with 4561.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that your name?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. I omitted to ask you one thing. When you were wounded and while
25 you were still by the road, can you tell us what was the direction of the
1 attack against you? Did it come from the hills?
2 A. It came from the direction of the hill and the forests that was
3 in front of us.
4 Q. Very well. Let us continue now. After you were admitted in
5 Zvornik, what followed?
6 A. I underwent a surgery the same day on my left thigh. I was there
7 for about four or five days after which I was sent to the special
8 orthopaedic ward in Belgrade
9 20 days then I was sent to Banja Koviljaca to the specialised orthopaedic
10 clinic there and remained under therapy there for about almost a year.
11 Q. You stayed there almost a year. What followed? Did you go back
12 to Zvornik? Did you take sick leave, and if so, how long?
13 A. I was on sick leave until June 1998. The commission then
14 assigned me to another job. I was placed at the switchboard and I still
15 do that.
16 Q. I would like us to go through a couple of documents, and that
17 will be the end of your examination-in-chief. The first document is
18 P03113. Page 2, please. Could we zoom in on the upper part. You have
19 not seen this document before, but I believe it will be clear to you
20 after I explain it. Under 1 it says "combat operations." It says: "On
21 the 13th of July 1995 in the morning hours, large groups of enemy
22 military formations from Srebrenica infiltrated the area of Sandici,
23 Bratunac municipality and in the area of Konjevic Polje, where Zvornik
24 public security centre police officers came under armed attack. In the
25 course of the fighting in these places, Bratunac public security station
1 police officer Zeljko Ninkovic was killed. Milos Zoljic, Zaric Zilko and
2 Nenad Andric were seriously wounded while Nenad Filipovic Was slightly
4 So that you would know what the document is, I will tell you that
5 it is the bulletin of daily events of the centre in Zvornik for the days
6 13th and the 14th of July 1995. The date is in the left right-hand [as
7 interpreted] side corner and it says the 14th of July. Does the content
8 of the paragraph correspond to what happened to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To conclude, I'd like us to look at another document. It is in
11 e-court P59. Could we zoom in, please on bullet point 6. And I will
12 explain for the record. This is a dispatch which was sent to the MUP of
13 Republika Srpska by Mr. Dragomir Vasic to the staff of the police staff
14 in Bijeljina, to the office of the minister in Pale and the public
15 security sector on 12th of July 1995. Mr. Zaric, let's look at bullet
16 point 6. I'm going to read it to you and I would like to hear your
17 comment after that. And this will bring us to the end of your today's
19 Joint forces of the police are advancing towards Potocari. Their
20 goal is to arrest UNPROFOR and encircle the entire civilian population
21 and to clean the terrain from enemy groups. You participated in the
22 events, you were there during this period of time. Tell me, please, is
23 the allegation from the dispatch correct, did you participate in making
24 arrests of UNPROFOR soldiers?
25 A. Absolutely incorrect.
1 Q. Did you have any orders with regard to UNPROFOR?
2 A. We had an order from our company commander not to approach
3 UNPROFOR at any cost, not to engage in any combat, not to open fire in
4 their direction, anything.
5 Q. Very well then, and as far as the encircling of the entire
6 population is concerned, did you have any such orders, anything to that
8 A. No, not at all. Nobody ordered any such thing, we never came
9 into contact with any civilians.
10 Q. And now on to the last line. Did you participate in the scouring
11 of the terrain in order to establish the presence of enemy groups?
12 A. Yes, that was our only mission, our only task.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Zaric, I have no further
14 questions for you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Just to try and see what where we
16 stand. Mr. Zivanovic, will you be cross-examining this witness?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honours, thank you.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic -- Mr. Ostojic, sorry.
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: No questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And thank you. Mr. Sarapa? I'm sorry, I couldn't
1 see you. For the record, Mr. Haynes is present. No questions.
2 Now, Mr. Thayer, do you have any questions?
3 MR. THAYER: I do, Mr. President. I can tell you that it won't
4 take the hour and a half that we asked for. It will be --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Seven minutes?
6 MR. THAYER: Not seven minutes. I'm at the Court's disposal, I
7 can switch up my order of questioning and get a couple of small areas
8 outs of the way in the seven minutes we have left and pick up later.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do. I wouldn't like to waste these seven
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
12 Q. Sir, good afternoon. My name is Nelson Thayer, I'll be asking
13 you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. If I could ask you just to move just a little bit closer to the
16 microphone please and then we won't miss anything you have to say. I
17 want to ask you a couple of questions first about the basic equipment
18 that you brought with you on this mission as a PJP officer. You've
19 already testified about the automatic rifle and the five clips. We've
20 been told by other PJP officers that in addition to their automatic
21 rifle, they brought their service pistols with them into the field. Do
22 you recall whether or not you brought your service pistol with you to the
23 field on this occasion?
24 A. I did not have a pistol, my service pistol with me, no.
25 Q. Now, you described the uniform that you wore, the uniform had a
1 patch on its left sleeve, did it not?
2 A. Yes, that's a patch that represented the police.
3 Q. Just so we are clear on the record, this is the uniform that you
4 wore when you were a member of the PJP unit as opposed to your blue
5 uniform that you wore in the course of your regular police duties;
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you told the Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo that your
9 platoon commander, Mr. Ristic, had a radio. What kind of radio do you
10 recall him having?
11 A. I don't remember exactly. In our view, it was a Motorola. But
12 I'm not sure whether it was a Motorola and what type of Motorola, if it
14 Q. Okay. And when you say, "in our view it was a Motorola," is it
15 fair to say, sir, that as you sit here today your best recollection is
16 that your platoon commander carried with him a Motorola radio during this
18 A. I'm not sure that it was a Motorola. It was a radio set. It was
19 a communication device. And we, or at least I, called every such set a
20 Motorola. But this doesn't mean that every device was a Motorola. It's
21 a specific brand, so to speak.
22 Q. I understand, sir. Now, when Mr. Ristic was interviewed by the
23 Prosecutor's Office in Sarajevo
24 he used over that radio and he thought that it might have been Omega 24.
25 I just want to ask you whether that code name rings any bells with you as
1 you sit here today.
2 A. I know that it was Omega but I can't remember the digits, the
4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I was able to use 5 minutes but I am
5 afraid if I go into my next section it will take a little bit more time
6 than we have.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Thank you, sir.
8 We'll meet again tomorrow. And in the meantime, please between now and
9 tomorrow morning when you will resume your testimony, you are not to
10 allow anyone to discuss with you the subject matter of your testimony.
11 In other words, you are not to communicate with anyone on what you are
12 testifying about. Is that clear?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's clear.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We stand adjourned until tomorrow
15 morning at 9.00. Thank you.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 1.43 p.m.
18 of October 2008, at 9.00 a.m.