1 Tuesday, 21 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry. I notice that General Miletic is back.
12 General Beara isn't present today. Mr. Ostojic, the information that we
13 have is that he is not feeling well. Will we have the waiver within the
15 MR. OSTOJIC: You will, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
17 Ms. Fauveau, in relation to yesterday's absence of your client, I
18 don't recall having seen the waiver as yet -- oh, it has arrived now.
19 All right. Okay. Thank you.
20 Now, Prosecution today is represented by Mr. McCloskey and
21 Mr. Thayer. I think that comes to Defence teams, we have a full house
22 today. The witness is already present, so we can start with his
23 testimony. Mr. Zivanovic?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I would just like to
25 introduce our new member of our team. It is Ms. Antigoni Xagoraraki.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, ma'am, and welcome.
2 So you finished with your cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic, I
3 take it.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, yesterday you said you would need
6 about 15 minutes or something like that.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: We have no questions for this witness at this time,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Ms. Nikolic, go ahead and
10 introduce yourself to the witness.
11 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 WITNESS: DRAGOSLAV TRISIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Nikolic:
15 Q. Good morning to everybody in the courtroom. Good morning,
16 Mr. Trisic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Although we've already met, I am going to introduce myself for
19 the record. My name is Jelena Nikolic, and I represent, together with
20 Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Drago Nikolic. I am going to put several questions to
21 you on this occasion.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Yesterday during your testimony, on pages 27030 and 27031, you
24 testified that during the period of 1992 within the 5th Battalion of the
25 Birac Brigade you were in charge of security and intelligence; is that
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. If I understood you properly, during the war you were in charge
4 of those tasks only for those two months?
5 A. Yes, you're right. Only for the two months that I mentioned.
6 Q. And after the months of September and October 1992, you were
7 assigned to completely different tasks in the logistics part of the
8 brigade; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. While you were in charge of the intelligence and security detail,
11 were you familiar with the documents of the JNA such as the command of
12 the work of the commands and staffs and the rules of service of security
13 service, the military police, the instruction on the methods of work of
14 the security service, and so on and so forth?
15 A. Partially, not completely.
16 Q. Were you familiar with the methods of work in
17 counter-intelligence and the application of these methods?
18 A. Not completely.
19 Q. Will you agree with me that in the course of your work in the
20 security organ, you knew about the work of this organ only as much as was
21 going on within the framework of your brigade; would that be correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you did not have any other experience with regard to the work
24 of the security organs?
25 A. Yes, you're right. I did not have any other experience.
1 Q. Do you remember when we met a few days ago that you told me that
2 you had not read the rules of the work of the security organ, that you
3 did not deal with that because you were keen to leave that kind of duty
4 as soon as possible?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. The job did not suit me at all.
6 Q. And now I would like to move on and put several questions to you
7 about something else. Yesterday, on pages 27062 and 27063, you testified
8 about your presence at a meeting, the meeting took place on the 12th of
9 July, 1995, at the command of the Bratunac Brigade. Do you remember
10 that? I apologise, my mistake. That you were actually a member of the
11 Bratunac Brigade when a meeting took place?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in the course of that day, at the brigade command you saw
14 officers from various -- other units?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Since you hail from Bratunac or the general region of Bratunac,
17 did you personally know Drago Nikolic from the Zvornik Brigade? Did you
18 know what he looked like?
19 A. Yes, we had met and I knew what he looked like.
20 Q. During those days and on that day, did you see Mr. Drago Nikolic
21 in the Bratunac Brigade from the Zvornik Brigade, or did you see any
22 other officer from the Zvornik Brigade for that matter?
23 A. I did not see Drago Nikolic. I did not meet him around that
24 time. I don't know about any others.
25 Q. In addition to that, on page 27069 yesterday, you mentioned on
1 line 10 that in Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995, you had seen, amongst
2 others, members of the Zvornik Brigade. Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes, that's what I said. That's true.
4 Q. Did you talk to those people? Did they introduce themselves to
5 you? Did they tell you what unit they were from?
6 A. No, I didn't talk to them, and obviously, they did not introduce
7 themselves to me.
8 Q. So how did you conclude that they were from the Zvornik Brigade,
9 based on what?
10 A. As far as I can remember, members of the Zvornik Brigade wore
11 patches on the sleeves depicting the words, "The Army of
12 Republika Srpska" with the insignia of the Zvornik Brigade wolves or
13 something to that effect.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trisic. I have no further questions for you.
15 A. Not at all.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Nikolic. Ms. Fauveau.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have 15 minutes of question.
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
19 Q. Good morning, sir. I am Natacha Ivanovic. I represent
20 General Miletic. I would like to ask you a few questions on a precise
21 subject which has to do with fuel which the Bratunac Brigade received in
22 July 1995. I would like you to see document 4D613. Could we please see
23 page 3 of the document in B/C/S because I think the English version is
24 page 2. Excuse me, it's page 2 in B/C/S and page --
25 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear in it the English.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You spoke yesterday about 30.000 litres which the
3 Bratunac Brigade had received from the DutchBat, page 56 of yesterday's
4 notes. And you said yesterday, also on page 56, that these 30.000
5 litres, which appear here at item 2, UNHCR. Did I understand you
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I'd like to clarify a point. Why do you say it was received from
9 the DutchBat, this fuel? It says here that it is UNHCR which is
10 indicated on this document.
11 A. My associate, the assistant for traffic, indicated that. That's
12 what he wrote. I was present when this fuel was unloaded from the tank
13 of the Dutch battalion into the tank of the Vihor transport company.
14 Q. All right. I will come back on this point a little bit later.
15 Do you remember when this fuel was received? Do you remember the date
16 for these 30.000 litres, when they were received?
17 A. As far as I can remember, this could have been on the 13th. Most
18 probably on the 13th of July.
19 Q. Could the witness be shown 5D1385. Is this document a receipt
20 for the fuel, the 30.000 litres which the Bratunac Brigade received?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Just to be quite clear, where you can read "7042 Bratunac," is it
23 indeed the number of the military post of the Bratunac Brigade?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. The date on this document is indeed the 13th of July, as you
1 indicated a while ago.
2 A. Yes, correct.
3 Q. I would like now to see 1386, document 1386. 5D1386, please. Is
4 this document a receipt by the Vihor society -- company of part of this
5 fuel which would be part of 30.000 litres which was, before that,
6 received by the brigade?
7 A. Here it says 23.300. That's what he it says here, 23.300. You
8 would have to jog my memory a little.
9 Q. If I can help you, the date on this document is the 14th of July,
10 1995, and one can read at the top "Military post 7402" and between
11 brackets "UNHCR," between brackets.
12 A. This is probably a document that we issued to Vihor which means
13 that we took over the fuel and transferred it on to Vihor, and this is
14 the document proving that the fuel ended up with Vihor and that they owe
15 us that fuel.
16 Q. This document just as the one you spoke about a little while ago,
17 also indicates UNHCR, doesn't it? Now, what I would like to know is that
18 you said you were present in the DutchBat bases when the fuel was being
19 given to the authorities of the Republika Srpska, but this fuel indeed
20 was at the DutchBat, but you don't know whether the owner could have been
21 the HCR
22 A. I believe that you misspoke. The fuel was unloaded from the tank
23 of the DutchBat within the perimeter of the Vihor company, into their
24 tank, and I was present when this was done. From the tank of the
25 DutchBat into the Vihor tank. I really can't tell you after such a long
1 time why that was the case. I suppose that it was customary for the
2 UNHCR forces, at least that's what my associate wrote. And in
3 confirmation that the fuel indeed was secured by DutchBat, there was a
4 conversation between General Mladic and the commander of the DutchBat at
5 the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac, and listening to that conversation, you
6 can see and hear that the commander of the DutchBat promises to deliver
7 fuel for the transport of Muslims to Tuzla.
8 Q. All right. Precisely speaking about the transport of the Muslims
9 to Tuzla
10 order to transport the Muslim population from Bratunac to Tuzla
11 true that on the 13th of July, 1995, part of the Muslim population was
12 still in Potocari?
13 A. Yes, it is true.
14 Q. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that indeed this fuel had
15 been received to transport the Muslim population from Potocari to Tuzla
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. We saw on the receipt of the Bratunac Brigade that the fuel was
18 received on the 13th of July, 1995. The fuel was received while the
19 transport was in progress?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is it true to say that at the time there was a dearth of fuel in
22 the Republika Srpska? Maybe there is a translation problem. Is it true
23 that at the time in July 1995 there wasn't enough fuel in the
24 Republika Srpska? I'm being told --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I am only following in English, and in English I am
1 receiving the translation of what you are saying in French. But you have
2 to help me and tell me whether -- those who are following in B/C/S --
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Apparently there is a problem
4 because the witness doesn't receive the translation in his language, so
5 maybe there is a technical problem.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That I understood, but what I wanted to
7 know is whether -- if he is the only one who is not receiving translation
8 or whether there are others such as the accused? You are receiving
9 translation. So the problem seems to be with the witness and not with
10 others, as far as I can see. I see Mr. Nikolic nodding as well.
11 Are you receiving interpretation now of what I am saying?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can hear you but I
13 did not see the lady -- actually, I did not hear the interpretation of
14 her words whereas I hear the interpretation of yours.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So then it's not a technical problem on
16 his side, it's -- we need to check again with the booth that is
17 translating from French into B/C/S. And I would kindly ask Madam Fauveau
18 to repeat her question. You have it on the transcript, but if you would
19 need my assistance I will of course.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
21 you very much.
22 Q. Is it true, witness, that at the time in July 1995, there was a
23 dearth of fuel in Republika Srpska?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. Can it be said that without the help -- can we say that without
1 the help of the international organisations, those 30.000 litres of fuel,
2 it wouldn't have been possible to transport the Muslim population at the
4 A. I cannot say that. But in any case, it made the transport easier
5 for us.
6 Q. You're absolutely sure that this fuel had been received precisely
7 for the transport of the Muslim population of Potocari towards the
8 territory controlled by the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: That question has been asked and clearly answered,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
13 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would answer exactly what my
14 colleague has said. I am now cross-examining, that's what I'm asking.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. We are losing and wasting more time
16 like that, Mr. Thayer. Please, if witness could answer the question,
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you wish me to repeat the question?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you absolutely certain that those 30.000 litres of fuel were
22 received for the need to transport the Muslim population from Potocari
23 towards the territory which was under the control of the army of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina
25 A. Yes, I'm sure.
1 Q. Thank you very much. I have no other question to ask from you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Fauveau. [In
3 English] Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning Your Honours.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trisic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I am Drago Krgovic, and I am going to put some questions to you
9 in relation to your testimony.
10 Mr. Trisic, in response to my colleague Mr. Lazarevic's question
11 yesterday, you mentioned at a certain point that a forward command post
12 of the Drina Corps was established in the Pribicevac sector. Do you
13 recall saying that to my colleague Mr. Lazarevic?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. You testified before this Tribunal in the Blagojevic case,
16 transcript page from 19344 on, and on that occasion you described your
17 stay at Pribicevac in July 1995. Do you recall testifying about that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Mr. Trisic, who did you go to Pribicevac at that time in July
21 A. I went to Pribicevac with Mr. Davidovic, my friend, and the then
22 president of the executive board of the Bratunac municipality.
23 Q. This was on the 9th of July, 1995; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, yes. Exactly.
25 Q. When you came to Pribicevac, where did you go first? The
1 logistics base was there as well, of the Bratunac Brigade or, rather, of
2 the 3rd Battalion?
3 A. When we came to Pribicevac, we first stopped off at the rear
4 section -- sector of the 3rd Battalion that was located at Pribicevac.
5 Q. And you stayed there, as you said in the Blagojevic case, for an
6 hour, two hours at the most?
7 A. Yes. I stayed approximately for that long at Pribicevac, an hour
8 or two.
9 Q. And you said that at one point in time while you were there in
10 the rear logistics base, General Gvero arrived also at Pribicevac?
11 A. Yes, yes. That's how it was.
12 Q. Mr. Trisic, can you please tell us if he was escorted by anybody
13 or accompanied by anyone? How did he come? With which vehicle, do you
15 A. Yes, I do remember. It was a little bit unusual to me. He
16 arrived in a private car with only a driver, and this was a bit unusual,
17 as far as I was concerned.
18 Q. Did you have an opportunity to speak with General Gvero then?
19 A. Yes, I did. We sat together at a table. We were drinking coffee
20 and a drink.
21 Q. Did General Gvero tell you that he came to oversee the Srebrenica
22 operation, to propose some measures or to have any kind of activity, or
23 did you talk about everyday things?
24 A. We mostly talked about everyday things. It was a little bit
25 unusual, as far as I was concerned, because he didn't -- or, there wasn't
1 much talk about the Srebrenica operation.
2 Q. Did General Gvero ask you to submit a report or anything like
3 that to him?
4 A. No, no, he didn't.
5 Q. And did you leave that place to go to the front line or did you
6 spend the whole time there at that table, as you described earlier?
7 A. We were in one place the whole time and that's where this
8 conversation took place.
9 Q. And when did you return to Bratunac? Did General Gvero leave at
10 the same time or did he stay at Pribicevac?
11 A. After our conversation, Davidovic and I started back, and at the
12 same time, but in a separate vehicle, Mr. Gvero left too.
13 Q. Do you recall the type of the vehicle in which General Gvero
15 A. Well, I couldn't say now. It was a long time ago. I don't
17 Q. Did any of the Drina Corps senior officers stay at Pribicevac at
18 that time? Were any of them at Pribicevac at that time when you were
19 there, if you remember?
20 A. I really don't remember. I really couldn't say, probably there
21 were some there, but anything that I would try to say would be just
23 Q. Did you perhaps see General Gvero suggesting any measures to
24 General Krstic, make any suggestions or ask him to take any steps or
25 actions or anything like that?
1 A. No, no. Nothing like that happened. I didn't see that. Like I
2 said, it was just an ordinary everyday conversation, so this was a bit of
3 a surprise to me.
4 Q. Mr. Trisic, thank you very much. I have no further questions.
5 Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Haynes.
7 MR. HAYNES: Just a few questions, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trisic, my name is Peter Haynes and I represent
11 Vinko Pandurevic, who at the time you were talking about was the
12 commander of the Zvornik Brigade. Do you recall that?
13 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. Do I remember ...
14 Q. That in 1995, July of 1995, Vinko Pandurevic was the commander of
15 the Zvornik Brigade?
16 A. Yes, yes, I remember that.
17 Q. Now, I just want to ask you -- to follow on from some questions
18 Madam Nikolic asked you about the soldiers you saw in Potocari with the
19 insignia on their arms. How many of them were there?
20 A. I really couldn't give you a number. In any case, it was
21 probably just a small number of soldiers. It was a small room and it
22 couldn't hold a large number of soldiers.
23 Q. And in terms of their dress, they were wearing ordinary
24 camouflage uniforms, and what struck you was the wolf insignia upon their
25 arms; is that right?
1 A. Yes, yes. Exactly.
2 Q. And if you can't answer this, then you mustn't, but are we
3 talking about one or two or -- as small a number as that?
4 A. I have no answer to that.
5 Q. Very well. I wonder if you could just look at something for me.
6 Could we have in e-court, please, 7D63 and page 6. Do you recognise the
7 insignia you saw on these few soldiers' arms on that sheet of paper, and
8 if so, can you indicate which one it was?
9 A. I'm not sure. I cannot recognise any.
10 Q. So it comes to this, all you can recall is seeing a few soldiers
11 who had a wolf insignia on their arm; is that it?
12 A. Yes, something like that.
13 MR. HAYNES: Now, for this next series of questions,
14 Mr. President, I think we had better go into private session.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's do that, let's go into private session.
16 MR. HAYNES:
17 Q. It --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment.
19 MR. HAYNES: I'm sorry.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 27121 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 MR. HAYNES:
23 Q. The English is C, the B/C/S is B. Now, Mr. Trisic, you -- let me
24 explain what this document is because you won't have seen it before, I
25 don't think. The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina apparently had the
1 ability to intercept military communications between units of the army of
2 Republika Srpska, and they recorded them and wrote them down. And what
3 you have on the right-hand side of your screen, in fact you may only have
4 the Serbian version, is what was written down of a conversation they
5 apparently intercepted, and the conversation is between you and somebody
6 called Obrenovic on the 13th of July, at about 20 to 7.00 in the evening.
7 Do you know who Major Dragan Obrenovic was in 1995?
8 A. Yes, yes, I do.
9 Q. And did you know that at that time, at about quarter to 7.00 in
10 the evening of the 13th of July, he was in command of the
11 Zvornik Brigade?
12 A. No, I didn't know.
13 Q. It's a long time ago, but do you remember talking to him, on the
14 evening of the 13th of July, about a broken down tank?
15 A. I don't recall that conversation, but it's possible; and based on
16 this text, it's possible that we did have such a conversation.
17 Q. So, if you don't recall the conversation, there is little point
18 in my asking you anymore about it; but reading this, does it refresh your
19 memory about the conversation you had with Dragan Obrenovic shortly
20 before 7.00 on the evening of the 13th of July?
21 A. I could have had such a conversation.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you very much, Mr. Trisic.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you, to
25 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
2 Q. Good morning, sir.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. My name is Nelson Thayer, and I will be asking you some questions
5 on behalf of the Prosecution. If my voice gives out, I apologise. I'm
6 slowly losing it this morning.
7 You --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We have another possibility, I mean, cutting short
9 your cross-examination.
10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I will take that to
11 heart. Perhaps a long break.
12 Q. Now, sir, you told us that even after Mr. Borovcanin assumed his
13 new duties with the special police brigade in 1994, you would see him
14 when he visited his parents in Bratunac.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, after the encounter with him that you told us about, late in
17 the day on 12 July, when was the next time you saw him?
18 A. I don't know. I can't remember when, but I probably did see him.
19 I mean, I did see him around.
20 Q. Is it fair to say that you would see him with some regularity,
21 certainly with the same regularity that you saw him in 1993 and 1994,
22 when he was around visiting --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the
25 JUDGE AGIUS: You heard that.
1 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
2 Q. Did you understand my question, sir? Do I need to repeat it?
3 A. Could you please repeat it.
4 Q. Did you continue to see Mr. Borovcanin following July 1995?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. When, sir, was the last time you were in contact, either directly
7 or indirectly, with Mr. Borovcanin?
8 A. I can't remember right now.
9 Q. Well, can you give us a year?
10 A. No, I cannot. I can't remember.
11 Q. Now, you testified as a Defence witness on behalf of
12 Colonel Blagojevic on the 17th of 18th of May, 2004. Other than my
13 friends from Mr. Borovcanin's Defence team, what other representatives of
14 other accused, either in this case or other cases, have you been in
15 contact with?
16 A. Well, I only met with the representatives of Mr. Borovcanin and
17 Defence counsel for Mr. Gvero.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought I heard before Ms. Nikolic indicating
19 that she had met you as well? Ms. Nikolic representing Mr. Nikolic.
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. Sir, we just need an audible answer.
22 A. Yes, I apologise, that was two days ago here in The Hague at the
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Perhaps he can clarify whether he has met
25 anyone else in recent days, in the last few days.
1 MR. THAYER: Will do, Mr. President.
2 Q. Have you understood His Honour's question, sir? Have you met
3 anyone else from any other teams in the last few days?
4 A. No, I haven't. No.
5 Q. Okay. Just one last question on this topic. How many times did
6 you meet with the Defence team for Mr. Borovcanin, and if you can recall,
8 A. I wouldn't be able to give you a number, but over the period of
9 last five or six months, it may have been three, four, or five times, and
10 then again in The Hague
11 Q. Okay. I want to take you back a little bit. You were asked some
12 questions in your examination in chief about your service to the Bratunac
13 municipality, either in the capacity of Chief of Staff or later as
14 commander of the staff of the TO to your duties in the brigade. I want
15 to turn your attention to 1992 and 1993. That was a time, particularly
16 in late 1992 into the winter and then spring of 1993, of significant
17 military activity in your area of responsibility, was it not, sir? From
18 late 1992 through the spring of 1993?
19 A. Yes, that's true.
20 Q. Are you familiar with some of the operations which were conducted
21 by the VRS which included elements from the Bratunac Brigade? And let me
22 just throw out a couple of names to you to see if you recognise them:
23 Operation Proboj, meaning breakthrough, from November of 1992 to February
24 of 1993. Do you remember that operation?
25 A. No, no, not under that name at least. I can't remember.
1 Q. I understand that you might not remember the particular code
2 name. How about Operation Pesnica, Fist, from approximately mid-January
3 to late January of 1993?
4 A. I'm not familiar with these names. There were operations, but
5 the titles that you have just mentioned don't ring any bells,
7 Q. Okay. The operations, whatever their names were, included the
8 liberation of Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and then eastward towards
9 Srebrenica. Does that help you, sir?
10 A. Yes. Those were the operations that were taking place during the
11 first half of 1993.
12 Q. And do you recall that as it happened on both sides of the
13 conflict, as it were, the Muslim inhabitants of those communities and
14 settlements because of these operations began to move into the Srebrenica
15 area? Do you remember that, sir?
16 A. What period are you referring to, please?
17 Q. This period during which we have been speaking, these
18 operations and -- to liberate Cerska, Konjevic Polje, do you recall that
19 one of the effects of that was that the Muslim inhabitants of those
20 communities, as Serbs did in other communities when their areas were
21 attacked or taken over, fled towards the Srebrenica area and became
22 refugees in the Srebrenica area; do you recall that, sir?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And do you recall when General Morillon went to Srebrenica in
25 March of 1993, and then sometime after that, there were convoys of
1 refugees from Srebrenica who clamored aboard to leave the enclave. Do
2 you remember that happening, sir?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Now, sir, do you recall that during this entire period of time
5 Mr. Borovcanin was the commander of the Bratunac police station?
6 A. In 1993, yes.
7 Q. Okay. I want to show you one document to help square away some
8 dates that you've provided us on a couple of issues. In the Blagojevic
9 case you testified that you were assistant commander for security and
10 intelligence in August of 1992, and that was at the transcript 9319 from
11 that case. Yesterday, and then again today, I think, your recollection
12 was that it was September and October of that year. And you additionally
13 testified that your recollection was that Mr. Borovcanin arrived in the
14 Bratunac area in early 1993. I'd just like to show you one document, if
15 I could, that's 65 ter 68 -- I'm sorry, 3813.
16 What we have here, sir, is a report of a performance inspection
17 at the Bratunac public security station. It was conducted on 22 and 23
18 August 1992. This document is dated the 27th of August, 1992. And it
19 basically concerns -- what it says, an inspection by a supervisor of the
20 SJB there in Zvornik, a supervisor named Sasa Blagojevic.
21 What I want to turn your attention to, sir, is page 2 of the
22 English, and that is page 2 of the B/C/S as well. And in your version,
23 the original, there is a paragraph that begins: "After all these talks
24 which were held at the Bratunac SJB, we agreed on a meeting with
25 representatives of the army and the municipal government."
1 Do you see that paragraph, sir, it's the third bullet point on
2 your page? Just let me know if you're with me on this.
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. It says this meeting was attended by the president of the
5 municipality, Mr. Ljubisav Simic; the chairman of the SDS, Miroslav --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Mr. Lazarevic.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: We never challenged the fact when Mr. Borovcanin
8 arrived. I mean, maybe I can help my friend by saying this that
9 Mr. Borovcanin was at that period at the police station in Bratunac. We
10 are not challenging the fact.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You need to take notice of
12 that --
13 MR. THAYER: I do, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- and proceed accordingly.
15 MR. THAYER:
16 Q. It also indicates that the chairman of the SDS,
17 Miroslav Deronjic, and war commissioner, Zoran Tesic, on behalf of the
18 municipality were present. It also indicates Colonel Dimitrije Sibinic,
19 and that's the commander whom you told us about yesterday, correct, sir,
20 under whom you served initially?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And then it refers to staff sergeant Drago Nikolic on behalf of
23 the army, head of SJB Luka Bogdanovic, and commander of the police
24 station Ljubomir Borovcanin. And then there are two other names,
25 Branimir Tesic and Budimir Lakicevic.
1 My first question, sir, is: Does this jog your memory at all
2 about when it was that you were serving in the intel and security organ?
3 Do you recall attending this meeting or learning about the meeting that's
4 described here?
5 A. I don't think I was present at the meeting. I don't believe so,
6 and it is not indicated in the document either.
7 Q. Now, sir, there is a reference to a staff sergeant Drago Nikolic
8 on behalf of the army. Do you have any idea, sir, as to whether that
9 Drago Nikolic referred to there, based on your service in the intel and
10 security organ, as well as the familiarity that you told us about earlier
11 in answer to my friend Madam Nikolic's questions with Drago Nikolic,
12 whether this is the same Drago Nikolic who is the accused in this case?
13 A. I said that I had known Drago Nikolic, and as far as this
14 document is concerned and whether this is the same Drago Nikolic, I
15 suppose that it is.
16 Q. Okay, sir. I'd like to move on. You were asked some questions
17 yesterday about some orders regarding disconnecting the telephone lines
18 in Bratunac during the Krivaja 95 operation. Do you remember those
19 questions, sir?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. I'd just like to show you two quick documents on that topic. The
22 first is 65 ter 3817, please. And I apologise, we don't have an English
23 translation of this document, but it's a very short one so I just have a
24 couple of questions to put to you, sir. We can see it's dated the 5th of
25 July, 1995. It's from the command of your brigade to PTT in Bratunac
1 from your commander, Colonel Blagojevic. Can you just read what
2 paragraph 1 says, sir?
3 A. It says here: "Starting with the 5th of July, 1995, at 1200
4 hours, until further notice all post and telecommunication services users
5 shall be excluded from the PTT system, and as for the private telephones,
6 they have to be switched off even for the local use.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologizes for not being able
8 to interpret the meaning of word l-o-k-a-l-u precisely.
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. Okay, sir --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need to know what it means, l-o ... yes.
12 MR. THAYER:
13 Q. Sir, is there another way for you to define this word, "lokalu,"
14 l-o-k-a-l-u, that we see here in paragraph 1? Can you explain that to
16 A. This means that private telephones cannot be used even in
17 Bratunac. Local calls are also banned, meaning you cannot even call a
18 fellow citizen in Bratunac. This is the meaning of the word.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. If we go to paragraph 2, what is that -- that
20 first line there say?
21 A. Brigade commander, 881-122.
22 Q. Okay, I apologise, sir. Can you read to us what the text is
23 right after the number 2. Can you tell us what that says there?
24 A. "The following telephone numbers should not be switched off ..."
25 Do you want me to go through them?
1 Q. If you would -- we don't need you to read us the telephone
2 numbers, but if you could just read us what the abbreviations are there?
3 A. Under 2, it says: "The following telephone numbers should not be
4 switched off: The brigade commander, president of the municipal
5 assembly, the SDS
6 chief of the MUP," which stands for the chief of the Ministry of the
7 Interior, "NOMO, the director of the PTT," which stands for the post,
8 telegraph and telephone, "and the director -- the general manager of
10 Q. And what is NOMO?
11 A. NOMO stands for the chief of the department of the ministry of
13 Q. And in July 1995, who was chief of the MUP in Bratunac?
14 A. I believe that it was Mr. Josipovic.
15 Q. Okay, thank you, sir. We're done with this document.
16 Now, you told us yesterday -- and I want to turn your attention
17 now to the planning stages of the Krivaja 95 operation. You told us
18 yesterday that your brigade command reviewed and discussed both the
19 warning order as well as the plan for active combat operations which were
20 issued by the corps, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I believe you testified yesterday, and if I showed you your
23 brigade's book of reports and meetings, the 5 July combat order was
24 actually read out to the command staff. And you can confirm that, right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. Now, can we agree, sir, that you were in fact duty-bound to study
2 that 2 July Drina Corps command combat order?
3 A. Yes, I did have that connection.
4 Q. Now, in --
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise to my colleagues --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- that he should just pay attention. "I did
8 have that connection," that's the answer which was recorded and I think
9 if --
10 MR. THAYER: Thank you. I was just going to follow up on whether
11 that was ...
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: And I believe it would be maybe useful for the
13 witness to have in front of him the document that my colleagues is
14 referring at.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President. I can call up the report
17 and meetings book if -- can we have P219, please.
18 Q. And while we're waiting for the English, sir, on your screen do
19 you see the cover of a book with which you are familiar, the book of
20 reports and meetings for the brigade? Do you see that, sir?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Now, if we go to page 9 of the English, and that's also page 9 of
23 the B/C/S, I think you just agreed with me, but I'll show you the
24 document in any event. Do you see where it says -- actually, we need to
25 go to page 10 of both documents. At the top, at 1930 hours, which has
1 been incorrectly, I think, translated in the English as 0730 hours, but
2 do you see where it says: "1930 hours, the brigade commander presented
3 the order of the Drina Corps command to the command"?
4 A. Yes, I can see that.
5 Q. And that's what we were just talking about, right, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I see we are coming up on a break. I
8 have some more involved documents to use with the witness. Is it okay to
9 take it a couple of minutes early?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I have a meeting --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I have a meeting now at 10.30, so I suggest that
13 the break will be of 30 minutes instead of 25, and it will give you
14 time -- also an opportunity to recover your voice.
15 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Thayer, let's continue.
19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Sir, I just wanted to follow up with you. A question that I had
21 for you that gave rise to the intervention from my friend was with
22 respect to the Krivaja 95 combat order from the corps. You were
23 duty-bound to review that, were you not?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. And just as a matter of clarification, can you tell us the
1 difference between the commander and the chief within an SJB?
2 A. I apologise. I did not understand your question. What is the
3 difference between ...
4 Q. Yes, sir. Sometimes we see the term "commander," other times we
5 see "chief" referred to. Are you familiar with the differences in the
6 positions within an SJB?
7 A. I really apologise. Commander of security -- security commander?
8 I really did not understand you. I'm sorry.
9 Q. I think we're having -- we may be having some translation issues?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not sure of that as yet.
11 MR. THAYER: Okay.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want to make sure --
13 MR. THAYER: Within -- I'll just move on, Mr. President. It's
14 just a point of clarification.
15 Q. Now, sir, you were asked some questions yesterday by my friend
16 Mr. Zivanovic, on behalf of Colonel Popovic, about the Krivaja 95 plan
17 from the corps and what was done at the brigade level to implement that
18 combat order. Do you remember those questions, sir? There were some
19 notations on the Bratunac Brigade's copy of the Drina Corps order for
20 active combat operations. Do you remember those questions?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Now, turning your attention to the questions concerning
23 Momir Nikolic's notations on the Bratunac Brigade copy that you saw
24 yesterday, and to save time I'll just refer to the documents. If you
25 need to see them, I can certainly show them to you, but I think we can
1 carry on with just a discussion about them. Can we agree that the
2 notations that were made by yourself, as well as Mr. Nikolic, were not
3 really corrections. They were notations to yourselves in implementing
4 the task set by your superior command.
5 A. They were corrections and changes that would be entered into the
6 text of the order of the Bratunac Brigade.
7 Q. And those changes were made as you and the other staff members
8 were deciding how best to implement the intent of that combat order,
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think it's just to specify.
12 Could my colleague specify what he means by "staff members"? When he
13 says "staff," what are we talking about?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. Madam Fauveau.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Is it brigade staff or something
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Sir, I'm referring to, for example, yourself and Mr. Nikolic.
20 You being a member of the command staff.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] President, I think this has to be
23 clarified. I don't think the witness was a member of the military staff.
24 He was a member of the command of the brigade?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer. Thank you, Madam Fauveau.
1 MR. THAYER:
2 Q. Sir, as chief of logistics, I'm just trying to keep it simple,
3 when you received that order, you made notations on that copy, as did
4 Mr. Nikolic, in the course of deciding how best to implement the intent
5 of your superior command in drafting the brigade's corresponding combat
6 order, correct?
7 A. Yes, yes. I made these corrections in the sense that the
8 infantry weapons' ammunition should be taken only to our units that are
9 in active combat, and that is for the Bratunac Brigade and only the
10 3rd Battalion.
11 Q. And it should go without saying, sir, shouldn't it, that you
12 wouldn't be making changes that would violate or override what you
13 thought the intent of your superior command's order was. Am I right?
14 A. Yes, yes. Correct.
15 Q. Now, sir, based on your experience in your brigade, it's the
16 military police who are responsible for dealing with prisoners of war,
17 that is, guarding them, escorting them, for example, correct?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. And you don't have any reason to believe that that common
20 practice was changed in the case of the Bratunac Brigade combat order, do
22 A. Would you please repeat your question.
23 Q. Sir, you don't have any reason to believe that the common
24 practice, the understood role of the military police, as you just told
25 us, involved guarding and escorting prisoners of war, you don't have any
1 reason to believe that that was changed for any reason in the
2 Bratunac Brigade combat order?
3 A. No, I don't have any reason.
4 Q. I want to turn your attention to --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we know any reference to common
7 practice as by Mr. Thayer.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand. I --
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe it's my mistake but I don't follow.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no. May we have any reference to common
12 practice regarding the duties of military police.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I get you now. Do you have any
15 MR. THAYER: My reference, sir, is his answer to --
16 Mr. President, is his answer to my question at line 22 of page 31, asking
17 whether in his experience in the brigade, it was the military police who
18 were responsible for dealing with prisoners of war. He understood my
19 question and he answered it clearly.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. I think you can proceed. Go ahead.
21 MR. THAYER:
22 Q. Now, sir, I want to take you back to your visit to the forward
23 command post at Pribicevac. You were asked some questions by my learned
24 friend representing General Gvero. I want to just read to you what you
25 said in the Blagojevic trial about your time with General Gvero. And
1 this is at page 9435 of the transcript. You were asked the question:
2 "Do you recall seeing anyone, any higher echelon officers from the corps
3 or from the Main Staff?"
4 And your answer was: "General Gvero from the Main Staff of the
5 VRS was there, and I went to see General Gvero together with
6 Mr. Davidovic. We had a coffee or some drinks, I can't remember exactly.
7 And we talked for a while about the current problems."
8 You were asked a follow-up question: "What were the current
9 problems that you talked about?"
10 And your answer was: "Well, you know, the activities that were
11 being carried out around Srebrenica."
12 Now, this conversation occurred on 9 July, while the combat
13 activities were still ongoing. So it's correct, sir, is it not, that
14 when you referred there in Blagojevic to the activities going on, you are
15 referring to -- naturally talking about the military activities that were
16 underway at the time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay, sir. I want to turn your attention to another area, the
19 materiel supplies during the Krivaja 95 operation. I first want to
20 clarify a couple of details with you, and then we are going to look at
21 some records. You had a rear service or logistics company of
22 approximately 20 men, and that was commanded by Captain Radosavljevic; is
23 that correct, sir? Are you not receiving interpretation?
24 MR. THAYER: I don't think the witness is receiving
1 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
2 MR. THAYER: He's looking at me --
3 MR. OSTOJIC: That's what he's saying.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Will you repeat your question, please.
5 Maybe --
6 MR. THAYER: I think we may need to find out exactly when we lost
7 it because he's been giving me a funny look for a little while, which I
8 thought was just me.
9 Q. Sir, can you tell us when you stopped receiving interpretation?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Just repeat the question because the previous
11 question he had answered yes. So it's only your last question. Just
12 come and read it out again.
13 MR. THAYER:
14 Q. Sir, you had a rear service logistics company of about 20 men
15 captained -- commanded by Captain Radosavljevic; is that correct?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you still not receiving interpretation?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, I am receiving
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Okay. Then you can, perhaps, answer the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The logistics platoon company --
22 captain, the commander of the logistics platoon was Captain
24 MR. THAYER:
25 Q. And where was your officer physically located?
1 A. My office was at the same place as the brigade command, at the
2 building of the former tile factory called Kaolin.
3 Q. And just to follow up on a couple of questions, you testified
4 that fuel would be taken by the brigade from the Vihor company's gas
5 station, but you also had the capacity to store your own fuel at the
6 brigade warehouse. And can you confirm that you stored that fuel in
7 barrels, that you had a capacity of storing up to a tonne to a tonne and
8 a half of fuel?
9 A. These are capacities that apply to the fuel stored in metal
10 barrels, up to 200 litres.
11 Q. Now, you talked about a couple of warehouses yesterday. Do you
12 know where the MUP stored its materiel? They certainly had a warehouse
13 somewhere in Bratunac for its logistic needs. Do you know what that
14 location was, sir?
15 A. Probably in the compound of the police station building.
16 Q. Now, you were shown yesterday your 3 July request for equipment
17 and materiel to the Drina Corps command. And to save time, I don't need
18 to go through it with you, but can you confirm that you recall that
19 request that you put to the corps command upon receiving the warning
21 A. Yes, yes, I recall that.
22 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention now to the actual - and I'll
23 just use your abbreviation MTS - the materiel and technical equipment
24 that you did receive during the Krivaja 95 operation. May we have 65 ter
25 3812, please.
1 Do you remember giving a statement, sir, to the MUP in August of
2 2003 at the Bratunac police station?
3 A. I remember giving a statement.
4 Q. Okay. And do you see a copy of it before us?
5 A. Yes, I see it.
6 Q. If we could go to page 2 of the B/C/S, and that's page 4 of the
7 English. I wanted to ask you about something you said during this
8 interview. Referring to the Srebrenica operation in July 95 you stated,
9 and I quote: "The supply of units with combat and non-combat materiel
10 and technical equipment was carried out directly through the Main Staff
11 and the logistics of the corps."
12 We have to -- do you see that, sir?
13 A. Could you please help me?
14 Q. Sure, it's in about the middle of that paragraph. You're talking
15 about Operation Srebrenica.
16 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
17 Q. What I want to ask you, sir, is can you explain to the
18 Trial Chamber how the Main Staff and the corps logistics organs
19 interacted to supply your brigade during the Krivaja 95 operation? And
20 we're done with the document. For example, what elements of the
21 Main Staff were working with the corps to accomplish the task?
22 A. Probably the logistics organs of the Main Staff.
23 Q. And who were the personnel that you were familiar with during
24 this period of time at the Main Staff logistics -- in the Main Staff
25 logistics organ?
1 A. In the technical service, for example, it was Lieutenant-Colonel
2 or Colonel Cvijetic [phoen]. I would need to think about it now. I
3 can't remember exactly all the senior officers that -- well, I mostly had
4 contacts with senior officers from the corps.
5 Q. Understood, sir, but when you talk about the Main Staff or
6 working directly with the Main Staff in the corps logistics, can you
7 explain what that process was during the Krivaja 95 operation? How did
8 they interact? Can you just tell the Court how those two echelons worked
9 together during the operation, based on your recollection and experience?
10 A. I cannot really tell you about the cooperation between the
11 Main Staff and the corps organs. As I said, mostly all the activities
12 that related to the brigade went through the logistics sector of the
13 corps, the Drina Corps.
14 Q. Okay. Well, let's look at some documents. If we could have
15 65 ter 3818 on e-court, please. Now, sir, with Madam Usher's help, I'm
16 going to show you some documents that I think you've seen before.
17 MR. THAYER: The copies in e-court are pretty hard to read so I
18 have the originals here, and if we could just keep them in order, and
19 maybe it would be best to put them on the ELMO, if we could. Just one at
20 a time take them out of the plastic and put them on the ELMO, please.
21 Q. You mentioned yesterday materiel lists, and we can see in the
22 upper left-hand corner that it says "materielni [phoen] list." Is this
23 an example of what you were talking about, sir?
24 A. Yes, yes. That's the materiel list, materielni list.
25 Q. Okay. This is dated the 5th of July, and --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- if we look at box four, it says "VP 7111." Am I correct that
3 that's the military post number for the Drina Corps command in Vlasenica?
4 A. Well, I really can't remember the number.
5 Q. Okay. Well, next to that it says: "H. Pijesak." That, I
6 presume, stands for Han Pijesak, right in that same box next to VP 7111,
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the Main Staff is located there, correct, in July of 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. We can see that this is a materiel list for various sizes of
12 ammunition ranging from 7.62 millimetre, all the way up to 105
13 millimetre, which I presume is a howitzer. Do you agree, sir?
14 A. Yes, yes, 105 millimetres.
15 Q. Now, do you know whether the materiel in this document was
16 delivered in response to your 3 July request that we spoke about before;
17 or would there have been a separate request that was made by the brigade
18 which led to this materiel list and this ammunition being delivered?
19 A. I would have to look at my request to the corps; for example,
20 here I have 30-millimetre bullet, that is item 5. And as far as I can
21 remember, we didn't have that kind of materiel.
22 Q. Okay. Let's move to the next document, if we could, please, and
23 that's 65 ter 3819. And this will be a 6 July, 1995, materiel list.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Fauveau.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone, please. Try now.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It's not about an objection, but I
3 just clarify a point because on the document we have still in front of us
4 711, 11, this is the military post of what? After that we speak about
5 the staff. Could the witness clarify where was the logistic bases of the
6 Drina Corps, so that we would know what it's all about in this document.
7 Because this military number 711, we would like to know what it is
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER:
11 Q. Sir, did you understand the question?
12 A. Yes, yes. The depots could have been in different positions
13 which largely depended on the MTS which was stored in them. As for this
14 document, we can see that the Tisca depot is where the ammunition was.
15 And as for Han Kram in Han Pijesak, that's where the quartermaster
16 supplies were stored; in other words, we are not talking about just one
17 depot or storage.
18 Q. And, sir, the corps, as well as the Main Staff, had their own
19 logistics centres or depots, didn't they?
20 A. Yes, that's true.
21 Q. And do you remember that one of the Main Staff depots was known
22 as the 35th. You recall that, correct?
23 A. Well, yes, more or less.
24 Q. Well, let's look at another document, sir. Let's go to, if we
25 can have 3819.
1 Sir, this is another materiel list dated 7 July, and for the
2 record, we are looking at ERN 0663540. This is 3820, 65 ter 3820.
3 Again, do you see that there is ammunition being delivered in this
4 materiel list, sir?
5 A. Yes, I can see that.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. THAYER: If we could scroll -- sorry. If we could just maybe
8 move the original to the bottom. A little bit more, that's great.
9 Q. Do you see box 36
10 lower right-hand corner. Do you see where it says that the listed
11 materiel came directly from the 35 POB? Do you see that, sir?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. So this is coming directly from the Main Staff --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment.
15 MR. THAYER:
16 Q. -- depot?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness -- can the
19 witness see the top of the document with the name of the person who sent
20 this equipment, or what is the origin of this materiel?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can we do that, please?
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. Sir, I don't know if that helps you at all --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
25 MR. THAYER:
1 Q. -- seeing the top of the document. But my question is really
2 focused on --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment, Mr. Thayer. Ms. Fauveau.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm not sure if there is a
5 translation in English of this document, but if my colleague doesn't
6 really know the contents of the document, in this case I don't think he
7 can allege things which are simply not true. On this document, one can
8 read the data concerning the sender, and then you have the number of the
9 military post, 7111, and then the place, Vlasenica. So maybe the witness
10 can clarify this.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I do not assume, like Ms. Fauveau, that
12 you do not know the contents of this document; am I correct?
13 MR. THAYER: You are correct, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So you can proceed with your question.
15 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Turning your attention to the bottom of the document -- sorry,
17 Madam Usher. Do you see, sir is, where it says that the listed materiel
18 came directly from the 35 POB? That's at the lower right-hand corner.
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And that indicates, does it not, sir, that this materiel came
21 directly from that Main Staff logistics centre?
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President, because
24 this document shows clearly who sent this materiel. And on this document
25 you can see the military post 7111, Vlasenica, as the sender.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We can proceed. I mean, the question is perfectly
5 MR. THAYER:
6 Q. Sir, let me try a third time. That handwritten annotation down
7 there in the box indicates, does it not, that this listed materiel came
8 directly from the Main Staff's logistics centre of the 35th POB logistics
9 centre. Isn't that what it says in black and white, or blue and white?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my colleague
12 continues to say and persists that it comes directly from the staff. I
13 don't say that it doesn't come from the 35th bases but not from the
14 staff, it's not on the document. There is also the name of the person
15 who signed the document.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is eliciting from the witness
17 precisely the source of this document. So he is in a position -- if he
18 is in a position to answer, he will answer, especially since he has heard
19 what you have to say now. Yes, please, Mr. Trisic, go ahead.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes what?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The supplies came directly from the
23 31st -- 35th logistics base. There is the document in front of us
24 indicating that, and there is no way I can deny it.
25 MR. THAYER:
1 Q. Now, sir, to save some time, I'm going to again ask the help of
2 Madam Usher. I just want to hand you a packet of some more original
3 materiel lists.
4 MR. THAYER: And for the record, this contains 65 ter 3821, 3823,
5 3824, and 32825. And if you would just, Madam Usher, just give a packet
6 to the witness so he can just go through them one by one.
7 Q. Sir, I just ask you to look at those one by one, and I would just
8 ask you to, when you're done looking at them, confirm that those are all
9 materiel lists for ammunition received during the Krivaja 95 operation.
10 A. Yes. Obviously the ammunition was received during the Krivaja
12 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. We're done with that packet, then.
13 Now, you were shown yesterday, and again let me know if you need
14 it, but you were shown a document that was dated Petrovdan 1995,
15 regarding the consumption of MTS from 10 July to 12 July that you sent to
16 the Drina Corps command. Do you remember that?
17 A. Yes, I remember that.
18 Q. Okay. You also said that that didn't necessarily mean that you
19 had used all that materiel, correct?
20 A. Yes, that's what I said.
21 Q. Now, in the Blagojevic case, you testified that you would not
22 receive any accounting or receipt from the subordinate command of how the
23 materiel was used, and that was at page 9324. Do you remember that, sir?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Okay. Now in your interview with the OTP, at pages 26 and 27,
1 you said that in relation to that consumption document, and I quote: "An
2 operations man in the unit would know how much was actually used." And
3 you continue that: "The operations organs were ones who take control of
4 how much each unit used of ammunition because operations organs know
5 which unit was involved in the operations."
6 Do you remember saying that?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber briefly when you would make
9 your assessments of the brigades needs, would you have to rely on the
10 operations organ, therefore, in order to properly assess the needs and
11 make the required requests, or would you rely on some other method of
12 doing that?
13 A. As you have just said it, that would be the right order of
15 Q. Okay. You were asked some questions this morning about fuel that
16 was consumed and received on the -- on the 13th of July. I want to ask
17 you some questions related to that topic. May we have 65 ter 3827,
18 please. And with Madam Usher's help, I am going to hand you some
19 originals. This is a packet of fuel-related materiel lists I am handing
20 out to you.
21 Now, sir, can you look at the first two. Those are -- and then
22 I'll ask you about the document that is on the screen. The first two
23 documents there are dated July 8th and 10th of 1995, for 800 and 400
24 litres respectively. And for the record this is 65 ter 3826 and 3822.
25 Do you see those two documents? Those are the two documents I am
1 referring to, sir, for 800 and 400 litres?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection of what that -- those fuel
4 deliveries were for?
5 A. Well, I believe for the activities of the brigade. I can't be
6 more specific. These are very low quantities, 400 litres, 600 litres. I
7 really can't remember.
8 Q. That's fine, sir. If you just put those two documents to the
9 side, then, and let's turn our attention to the document that's on the
10 screen, and that will be the next original. If you would just look at
11 the next original in that packet after those first two ones that I gave
12 you, because the e-court version, as you can see, is illegible. So if
13 you can pull those two top documents and put them to the side, and then
14 the next document, if you could put that next to you on the ELMO, we will
15 be able to see more clearly.
16 MR. THAYER: We're going to need your assistance, again, Madam.
17 If we can just put that document that Mr. Trisic has in his hand
18 on the ELMO, I think we will be able to read it a little easier.
19 Q. As we can see, this is a materiel list for July 12th, 1995,
20 showing 5.000 litres of D-2 diesel fuel being delivered. Do you see
21 that, sir?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Now, that's a substantial amount of fuel, is it not?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. If we could go to 3828, and that's going to be the next document
1 in your stack there, sir. If we can put that next document on the ELMO.
2 We're done with that one. Again, this is another materiel list dated 12
3 July for 2.000 litres of diesel fuel, D-2. Do you see that, sir?
4 A. Yes, I do. But you have misspoken, it doesn't say "we request"
5 but "we have received."
6 Q. Understood, understood, sir. This is fuel that -- that is coming
7 to you that you were receiving. And on that note, when you say that this
8 isn't fuel that you requested, what do you mean by that?
9 A. Well, given the date, the 12th of July, this fuel could only have
10 been used for the buses that transported the Muslims.
11 Q. Okay, sir. And if we could go to the next document in your pile,
12 put that on the ELMO, and this is 65 ter 3829, we see that there is 6.000
13 litres of diesel fuel, D-2, being delivered to your brigade that day.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, you were shown --
16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Madam Usher, I think we're actual done
17 with this packet now.
18 Q. You were shown a couple of documents by my learned friend from
19 the Miletic team that showed the 30.000 litres of UNHCR fuel coming in
20 the next day on the 13th. Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And then we see, if you remember, the Vihor or the materiel list
23 that -- dated the 14th, showing the fuel going to the Vihor company, and
24 that was dated on the 14th.
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. THAYER: Now, may we have 4D00613 on e-court, please. And --
2 I'm sorry. We're going to have to ...
3 Q. I'm going to show you a couple of originals that you were shown
4 copies of yesterday. The first is the handwritten document, if we could
5 just put that on the ELMO. Do you recognise that document, sir?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And, if we look at number 2(a) there, it says that you received
8 from the Drina Corps and the Main Staff 18.300 litres.
9 A. Yes, that's what it says.
10 Q. And if we could look at the typewritten version. And do you see
11 that again, on the typewritten version, specified as D-2 diesel, coming
12 from the Drina
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Now, sir, I can -- well, let's just take a moment, and if we
15 could look at 3816, 65 ter 3816, please. And we'll need to go a couple
16 of pages ahead in the B/C/S to the handwritten version, and I have here
17 the original.
18 This document, sir, is an overview of the fuel consumed for the
19 month of June by your brigade; is that correct? It's dated 3 July for
20 the month of June.
21 A. Yes, that's that.
22 Q. And under 2(a), the same part of the previous report that we saw
23 before, the same area of the form, it says: "From the Drina Corps
24 command, 1.200 litres of D-2 diesel." Do you see that, sir?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. And there is no references to the Main Staff there?
2 A. Yes -- well, you're right. There is no references.
3 Q. Now, I could take you through the April and May overviews that
4 you sent to the Drina Corps, the same form, and I can show you that there
5 is no reference to the Main Staff in those documents either. Will you
6 take my word for that, or I can show them to you if you like? I'm just
7 trying to save a little bit of time.
8 A. I'll take your word for that.
9 Q. Sir, is it fair to say that the reason why the July overview of
10 fuel consumption refers to receiving the fuel from the Drina Corps and
11 the Main Staff is because of the large amounts of fuel that was
12 requisitioned on the 12th of July to evacuate the civilian population out
13 of Potocari?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. We're done with those documents. It will
16 be over soon, sir.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. THAYER: Now, may we have 65 ter 3833 on e-court, please.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
20 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to --
21 if my colleague can help us in letting us know, because he keeps using
22 the word "65 ter," but I think -- I've never seen this document added on
23 the 65 ter list of the Prosecution. I would like to know when this
24 document was added on that list. Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Yes, Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: These documents were added to our 65 -- they were
2 given 65 ter numbers in connection with placing them on the list of
3 documents for cross-examination. They were not part of our initial
4 65 ter list of exhibits. That's the simple question from my friend.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. --
6 MR. BOURGON: Then I would like to know, Mr. President, under
7 what permission and who had allowed the Prosecution to add and to give
8 these 65 ter numbers. If they want to give them a number and call it
9 Prosecution number, it's fine; but this case will never end the way we're
10 going right now with the Prosecution using witnesses on the stand to get
11 additional evidence. They are not using these documents to contradict
12 the witnesses. They are adding hundreds and hundreds of documents
13 constantly without getting any permission from the Trial Chamber to get
14 these documents; and, moreover, all of these documents were not
15 communicated to the Defence until the minute that the witness was on the
16 stand. Once again, Mr. President, the Prosecution is abusing the
17 Trial Chamber's order and this trial will never end if we continue this
18 way. Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I would also ask the permission to
21 have a cross-examination on what was said about the fuel which, according
22 to the Prosecution, was received by the staff. As my colleague said, we
23 didn't have the list of those documents when we did our
24 cross-examination. Therefore, this subject was not at all treated during
25 the direct examination, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: We join the objection of my learned friend,
3 Mr. Bourgon.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Thayer.
5 MR. THAYER: If I may, Mr. President. This is cross-examination.
6 In addition to that, almost all of these documents were referred to
7 during this witness's prior testimony. That's how I found most of them.
8 So the claim of surprise and this refrain about the 65 ter numbers, I
9 think is just wasting time. If I can continue my examination, I've asked
10 for an exhibit and I'm prepared to continue.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And with regard to Madam Fauveau's, I
12 suppose we need to deal with that when you're finished your
13 cross-examination. One moment, please.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, let's deal with it. These problems do arise
16 from time to time, and they have arisen in the past already and we have
17 dealt with them. So what we are going to say is basically nothing new.
18 We have ruled before, and we repeat it, that there is no legal basis
19 for -- which would entitle us to restrict the Prosecution from making use
20 of documents which are not on the 65 ter list if the need for such
21 document arises out of the examination-in-chief or the testimony of the
22 witness. So that's point number 1.
23 Having said that, it's not to be ruled out that as regards
24 specific documents there may be a ground for an objection, and if there
25 is, we will deal with those objections on an ad hoc basis. That's it.
1 So let's proceed.
2 And you can, perhaps, start thinking of concluding your
3 cross-examination, Mr. Thayer.
4 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
5 Q. Now, sir, during our interlude did you have the aerial image in
6 front of you?
7 A. Yes, yes, I did.
8 Q. Okay. I know the directions might be a little counter-intuitive,
9 but I just want to know whether you, first of all, have been able to
10 orient yourself to various locations in Bratunac, having looked at this
11 aerial image. And I'm just going to ask you if you can mark a couple of
12 locations that you've talked about, and then we'll move on.
13 A. Yes, yes. It's clear. The photograph is clear to me. And if it
14 refers to the warehouses, the MTS warehouse is there, it should be there.
15 The warehouse of the quartermaster is here, in these buildings, in this
16 street, these buildings here.
17 Q. I need to just stop you right there. Can you put an MTS where
18 the -- where that warehouse is located. And is --
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And is that the former TO warehouse that you talked about or is
21 that the tobacco station?
22 A. This was the tobacco warehouse that I described as the MTS, and
23 we used it to store ammunition. Across the street, where I marked the IN
24 materiel and equipment, that is the former TO warehouse that we took over
25 and that's where we stored articles of food, quartermaster supplies,
1 including clothing and footwear.
2 Q. Okay. And if you could locate your house in July of 1995 and
3 just place your initials -- draw an arrow pointing to the house and then
4 just place your initials next to the house. And just to give you a
5 little heads-up, I am also going to ask you to point out where Mr. -- or
6 General Borovcanin's apartment was, in case you need to make some room
7 for that.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Okay. Can you explain to us what you've marked, sir? It's hard
10 for me to see.
11 A. The first arrow marks the building where I lived, and the
12 initials there are TD. The second arrow marks the place where
13 Mr. Borovcanin lived, and these are the initials BG.
14 Q. Okay. Would you please just place or write your name and today's
15 date in the lower right-hand corner of this aerial? Is that too far to
16 the right? It's okay. Okay. Today is the 21st of October, sir.
17 A. Today's date, 21st.
18 Q. And we are done with that document. Thank you.
19 A. You're welcome.
20 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Madam Usher.
21 Q. Sir, I want to turn your attention to the 12th of July, 1995
22 I want to ask you about some of the individuals and units that you
23 observed there. And I want to turn your attention in particular to your
24 OTP interview, and I want to read you a couple of sections from that just
25 to put it in context for you.
1 MR. THAYER: I've given a copy of the B/C/S translation to the
2 translators in the booth, and I've got a copy for you there. For my
3 friends, this is at pages 36 to 37 of the transcript, and then pages 75
4 to 77 of the transcript.
5 Q. And, sir, I just want to let you know up front, it wasn't
6 entirely clear to me what your recollection was at the time based on this
7 interview, so I want to give you an opportunity to read the questions and
8 answers and simply ask you what your best recollection is now with regard
9 to these topics. And if it's the same, fine; if it's not, that's fine as
11 Do you see where I've highlighted the questioning where it begins
12 with the question: "Who was the head of the Main Staff security?" Do
13 you see that sir, in your version?
14 A. Yes, I see it. I said here that that would be Colonel Beara.
15 Q. And you're -- you're asked the question: "Who was the head of
16 the Main Staff security?"
17 Your answer, to be fair was: "I think it was Colonel Beara."
18 The question is: "Was Colonel Beara there as well when you were
19 in Potocari?"
20 And you answered: "I think he was."
21 You were asked: "Do you recall what he was doing?"
22 And your answer was: "The security organs are doing their job.
23 They don't allow anybody to interfere."
24 You were asked: "Was anybody else from security there, in terms
25 of an officer?"
1 You answered: "I don't know. I'm not sure. They were coming
2 and going, so at that moment I'm not so sure so I can't tell."
3 You were asked: "Do you know who Popovic is?"
4 And you answer: "I know."
5 You're asked: "Who is he?"
6 You answer: "Also security organ."
7 You're asked: "From which unit?"
8 And you answer: "From the corps."
9 You were asked: "Was he present in Potocari on the 12th when you
10 were there?"
11 And you answer: "I'm not sure. It's possible, most likely."
12 Do you remember that questioning and answering, sir? And I'll
13 just give you a moment to catch up.
14 A. Yes, yes, I remember.
15 Q. Okay. If you turn your attention to the second document that you
16 were handed. This is an excerpt from later on in the interview at pages
17 75 to 77, and there is a section there that I've highlighted for you.
18 You were asked the question: "Going back to something that I'd
19 asked you about at length. July 12th, 1995
20 in Potocari when you were there?"
21 You answered: "I think he was."
22 You were asked: "Can you explain where you saw him?" And then
23 you were asked a series of questions. You were asked when you saw
25 And you answered: "During that time, before the buses came, when
1 that mass of people was gathering, they had some conversation, and I
2 could also see from these pictures shown today that they had some
3 contacts with the commander of the Dutch battalion."
4 And you were asked: "They being Zivanovic and who?"
5 You answered: "Zivanovic, Mladic, Krstic, that's the team."
6 You were asked: "That's the team, those three officers? What
7 other officers were in that group? Nikolic?"
8 And you answer: "I cannot tell that Nikolic was in the staff of
9 that operation." And to be fair this is a reference, I believe, to
10 Momir Nikolic, not the accused Drago Nikolic.
11 You were asked: "What I'm saying is, was he there with that
12 group of officers?"
13 You answered: "I don't know.
14 You were asked: "Popovic?"
15 You answer: "It's possible." [Realtime transcript read in error
17 You were asked: "Well, it's possible. Did you see him there?"
18 And your answer was: "Yes. They were there. That was their
20 MR. THAYER: I see my --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to let you finish and listen to
22 your question before I --
23 MS. NIKOLIC: It's just my point to ask my colleague to read
24 questions and answers from the interview until the end, because he's
25 cutting the sentences.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And there is here an error in transcript. There
3 was the answer, it is page 55, line 6, I believe. The answer was: "It's
4 possible," and here is "yes," as to the accused Popovic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: That can be clarified with the witness once the
6 question is put, or straight away. But I wouldn't like to interrupt you,
7 however, you need to take account now of what Ms. Nikolic has asked you.
8 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. I just skipped over a few
9 sentences that didn't have anything to do with anybody. These portions,
10 I am reading word for word what is in the interview and --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed. And if there is an
12 objection, then we'll hear it.
13 MR. THAYER:
14 Q. You were asked, again: "Popovic?"
15 And you answer: "It's possible."
16 You were asked: "Well, it's possible. Did you see them there?"
17 And your answer was: "Yes, they were there. That was their
19 You were asked: "They were there. Tell me who? They were
20 there, that was their job. Who?"
21 And you answer: "The command of the Main Staff."
22 And you were asked: "Who else? Who else was there that you
23 recall? I don't want you to tell me who you think was there.
24 And your answer was: "Beara. I don't know the others. I
25 couldn't know all of those people. There were some people I didn't
2 And the question then is: "Beara and Popovic were there with
3 Mladic, Krstic, Zivanovic?"
4 Your answer is: "Yes."
5 The question is: "Did you see Popovic or Beara directing anyone
6 to do anything?"
7 And your answer was: "I cannot say anything about that."
8 And you were asked: "Cannot say anything about it?"
9 And you answered: "I don't know. I didn't see."
10 And then you were asked: "Do you know how long they were there
11 for, Popovic, Beara?"
12 And your answer is: "I cannot tell that for sure. They could
13 have been there and then gone to the Main Staff and then come back the
14 next day, but I didn't follow them."
15 And I'll just let you catch up your reading, sir.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Sorry that took a little while, but I wanted to put your
18 statement in the interview in full context. This portion that we just
19 read together where --
20 A. Yes, yes. Sir, you can see that Mr. Dean Manning put leading
21 questions to me and I answered yes, probably, I don't know. Like that.
22 Q. Okay. Well, that's why I asked you the questions in the way I
23 did, sir, and asked you to read all material. Can you tell the
24 Trial Chamber what is your best recollection, as you sit here today, as
25 to whether you saw Colonel Beara in Potocari on the 12th of July?
1 A. It was a long time ago. I said here yes, I think so, yes. In
2 the end I said I don't know. However, as I say, in such a group of
3 people, I am not sure about that any longer. I cannot assert that I
4 know, that I do have an idea. You can see what the questions are here.
5 Was he there? And I think -- and I say yes, probably, perhaps. I think
6 pressure was exerted on me and I succumbed, as far as some things are
7 concerned. I am not sure that that's the way it is, and what I said is
8 stated in the document.
9 Q. And how about Colonel Popovic? As you sit here today, what is
10 your best recollection about whether you saw Colonel Popovic in Potocari
11 on the 12th of July?
12 A. I can say that it seems more likely to me when I said "yes" that
13 I saw him at some -- on some image or footage or photo from Potocari. I
14 don't know if it was or wasn't. It probably was that I did see him.
15 Q. And just so we're clear on the record, sir, when you say, "It
16 probably was that I did see him," do you mean that it probably was that
17 you saw him in Potocari or that you saw him on footage or a photo from
19 A. On a video clip.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, was it the Chamber's intention to
22 take the break at 12.30 or --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It was our intention to start with the next witness
24 by that time. You've gone longer and longer and sometimes unnecessarily,
25 Mr. Thayer, in our opinion. So will you bring your cross-examination to
1 an end here, and we start with the new witness after the break, please?
2 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if I may continue with a couple of
3 areas. I estimated two hours, frankly --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's well past that.
5 MR. THAYER: We have, Mr. President. Some of that time has been
6 devoted to discussing other matters. I do have some discrete areas I
7 would like to address.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: How long, Mr. Thayer?
9 MR. THAYER: If I could have another 20 minutes, Mr. President.
10 And if we can take the break now, I can try to cut it down.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 25-minute break and then we'll see.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue and finish, Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Good afternoon again, sir.
18 A. Good afternoon to you, too.
19 Q. I want to turn your attention to the various units which you saw
20 on the 12th of July in Potocari, and I want to read back to you some of
21 your testimony in Blagojevic. And this is at page 9365.
22 You were asked by Mr. Karnavas: "How did you recognise them?
23 How did you recognise them?"
24 And you answered: "The troops of the VRS had a certain kind of
25 uniform, of course, but I knew that they were from other units because I
1 didn't know them. Some of them even had an insignia indicating that they
2 belonged to, for example, the Zvornik Brigade. For example, their
3 insignia were wolves from the Drina River
4 Now, I'd ask you just to turn that document over that's on the
5 ELMO there, sir.
6 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Madam Usher.
7 Q. Do you see the circular patch on the left? And this 7D00063, you
8 were shown this earlier. Do you see that little circular patch there on
9 the lower left with the howling wolf? Can you read for us what those
10 letters say in the semicircle around the howling wolf's head.
11 A. It says: "Wolves from the Drina."
12 Q. Okay. And that's exactly what you testified you remembered
13 seeing, back in Blagojevic, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now you -- and we're done with that. Thank you. You also
16 testified in Blagojevic, and this is at page 9433, and also in your OTP
17 interview at page 31, that you saw protection regiment soldiers in
18 Potocari on 12 July. Can you confirm that you, in fact, saw soldiers
19 from the protection regiment on that day in Potocari?
20 A. That's what I said.
21 Q. And do you stand by that recollection that you -- you had when
22 you testified, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday, at page 27069, you testified that there
25 were Drina Corps military policemen at Potocari on the 12th of July. And
1 at page 27074, you said the following in relation to Momir Nikolic
2 coordinating various units. You said, and I quote: "I saw him in
3 communication with other soldiers, the corps police was there as well,
4 and I saw this as some sort of coordination in the work of all these
6 Now, in Blagojevic you testified at 9429 to 9430, you were asked
7 the question: "So when you were in Potocari, did you see both the
8 Bratunac Brigade military police and the corps military police like you
9 say here," referring to your interview. And from the transcript I see,
10 there is no interpretation of your answer.
11 But then you were asked a follow-up question: "And they were
12 providing security for the Muslims, like you say here?"
13 And your answer is: "Yes."
14 My question to you, sir, is: Is the Bratunac military police and
15 the Drina Corps military police providing security for the Muslims the
16 kind of activity you saw Momir Nikolic coordinating that day? Is that an
17 example of the kind of coordination which you saw that day?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Nikolic.
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has not
20 been read the whole text to the end. Especially on page 249 where,
21 before the question quoted by my learned friend, the witness was faced
22 with his interview given to Dean Manning, i.e., the Office of the
23 Prosecutor. In other words, the context of the question that has just
24 been put to the witness now does not correspond to the context of the
25 question put to the witness in the Blagojevic case.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
2 MR. THAYER: I think the context is very clear, Mr. President, of
3 what I'm talking about. If the witness doesn't understand the question,
4 he can clearly say so.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed.
6 MR. THAYER:
7 Q. Again, sir, you testified that you saw the Drina Corps military
8 police and the Bratunac Brigade military police providing security for
9 the Muslims. And you testified yesterday that you saw Momir Nikolic
10 coordinating various units, including his contacts with the Drina Corps
11 military police; you specifically said that yesterday. So my question to
12 you is: Is providing security for the Muslims the type of activity that
13 Momir Nikolic was coordinating, this coordination among units of the
14 Bratunac Brigade and the Drina Corps military police?
15 A. Yes, that's the way I saw it. That's the way I understood it.
16 Q. Okay, sir. Just a couple of areas and then we'll be done. In
17 the Blagojevic trial, sir, you probably recall being read an entry from
18 that Bratunac Brigade book of reports and meetings, and the entry was
19 from 16 October, 1995
20 informing the people at the meeting, among whom was yourself, about
21 certain activities that were being undertaken. And what he said in the
22 report, and that's P00219 for the record, is: "We are currently engaged
23 in tasks issued by the VRS Main Staff (asanacija)."
24 Now, in Blagojevic, sir, you were asked the following question by
25 Mr. McCloskey, and this is at page 9448.
1 Question: "And you don't know anything about the reburial of
2 over a thousand people from Glogova to Zeleni Jadar and other places in
3 September and October 1995?"
4 And your answer was: "As I said yesterday, I did hear about
5 those activities, but I assert that the Bratunac Brigade neither provided
6 security for, neither provided the transportation means nor the fuel for
7 those activities."
8 Then you were asked: "So how do you know about it?"
9 And you answered: "It was said here yesterday that Nikolic
10 reported, informed the command that he had undertaken those activities
11 according to orders from the VRS Main Staff."
12 And then you were asked: "You said you didn't know anything
13 about it?"
14 And your answer was: "Until that point, until the day when he
15 informed us; namely, I didn't know why the operation was going on. I
16 wasn't aware of it. I only found out about it after Captain Nikolic had
17 informed us about it at this meeting."
18 Then you were asked: "So you're now telling us that this meeting
19 in October, that's in the meeting minutes where asanacija is referred to,
20 was, in fact, a reburial of the bodies operation as far as you know?"
21 And your answer was: "Captain Nikolic did not give us any
22 explanations, and we didn't ask him to clarify anything why or what."
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.
24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. I really don't want to interrupt my
25 colleague, but we heard in B/C/S channel that not whole portion was
1 translated to the witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which part in particular, Mr. Lazarevic?
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I must say I am not hundred per cent sure, but
4 somewhere from line 21 to 25, page 62.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I am going to read those four lines,
6 slowly, and they will be interpreted and translated.
7 "And your answer was: 'Until that point until the day that he
8 informed us; namely, I didn't know why the operation was going on. I
9 wasn't aware of it. I only found out about of it after Captain Nikolic
10 had informed us about it at this meeting.'
11 "Then you were asked: 'So you are now telling us this meeting in
12 October, that is in the meeting minutes where," there is something
13 missing here, "was, in fact, a reburial of the bodies operation as far as
14 you know."
15 And I will finish the last two lines: "And your answer was:
16 'Captain Nikolic did not give us any explanations, and we did not ask him
17 to clarify anything why or what.'"
18 And your question.
19 MR. THAYER: And just to complete the record, Mr. President, the
20 missing word is "asanacija."
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Asanacija. All right. Okay. Thank you.
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. My question, sir, for you is: Do you stand by that testimony you
24 gave in Blagojevic case?
25 A. I do. I stand by my testimony given in the Blagojevic case.
1 Q. And your testimony is that no fuel, personnel, vehicles or
2 equipment were, to your knowledge, used by your brigade for that
3 operation. Is that what you're telling the Trial Chamber?
4 A. Yes, that is what I am claiming is the truth.
5 Q. Finally, sir, you were asked some questions about a man named
6 Resid. Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In fact, that man's full name is Resid Sinanovic, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know what happened to Resid Sinanovic? Do you have any
11 idea where he is today?
12 A. As far as I know, he is no longer among the living.
13 Q. And in fact, sir, are you aware that he still listed as missing?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Yes, one -- don't rush.
17 Mr. Bourgon.
18 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like to
19 come back to the last question which was asked by my colleague, just
20 clarify the record. My colleague asked and -- I'm looking for the right
21 quote, where he said: "You -- and your testimony is that no fuel,
22 personnel, vehicles or equipment were, to your knowledge, used by your
23 brigade for that operation. Is that what you're telling the
24 Trial Chamber?"
25 And the witness said: "Yes, that is what I'm claiming is the
2 However, the word "operation" here, if I look a few lines before
3 that, the witness doesn't know what the operation is. I would like my
4 colleague to confirm what operation is witness is talking about when he's
5 answering that question.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We could ask the witness himself,
7 actually, what he understood by the word "operation."
8 What operation you believed that Mr. Thayer was referring you to,
9 Mr. Trisic?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I supposed that we were talking
11 about the operation of which Mr. Nikolic reported to the Main Staff;
12 i.e., that upon the order of the Main
13 the terrain was underway.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
15 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, this is exactly the point because he
16 said earlier on at page 63, lines 3 to 4: "Captain Nikolic did not give
17 us any explanations. We did not ask him to clarify anything why or
19 So asanacija that the witness is talking about is not what was
20 suggested to him by Mr. McCloskey in his cross, that it was the reburial
21 operation. That's what I would like to confirm from the witness,
22 Mr. President.
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I read the prior testimony --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can leave it at that.
25 MR. THAYER: -- it was clear what was asked and what was
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We can leave it at that. Mr. Zivanovic.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I have two things. As the first, page
4 64, line 19, I think that the answer of the witness "yes" is wrongly
5 translated. It is opposite.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: What according --
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: About missing. So I suggest to put him this
8 question again.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Trisic, you were asked about
10 Resid Sinanovic, and you said that he is no longer among the living. And
11 then you were asked: And in fact, sir, are you aware that he is still
12 listed as missing?"
13 In the transcript we have you as saying -- as answering "yes."
14 Is that what you said? In other words --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I didn't know that he
16 was on the missing list. The way I understand it is that his body has
17 never been found, and that was the gist of my answer. That's what I
19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. The next matter.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would ask the Trial Chamber as well to put some
21 questions to the witness as for common practice of military police
22 Bratunac Brigade in dealing with prisoners of war and the presence of
23 Drina Corps military police in Potocari in -- on 12th of July, 1995.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the -- my friend had ample
1 opportunity and discussed these specific portions of the combat orders
2 which I, therefore, followed up on. There was other testimony and
3 questions on these issues. I don't see any reason or need for any
4 clarification. I think the questions that I asked were clear. The
5 answers were clear. I don't think there is any ambiguity or need for
6 further detail on this.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let me consult with my colleagues.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic, we don't -- we have discussed it and
10 don't see the need for us to put these questions.
11 Mr. Lazarevic -- I see Mr. Ostojic --
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be soon, Mr. Lazarevic.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I will be seeking leave of Court to inquire of this
15 witness on matters that were not elicited during the direct examination
16 and were furthermore not elicited during the testimony in Blagojevic on
17 the 18th and 17th of May, 2004, that just resulted from Mr. Thayer's
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I remain with my
21 request to cross-examine the witness on P38 about petrol, about fuel.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. -- do you wish to comment on either
23 or both?
24 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, very briefly, please.
1 MR. THAYER: I think the witness's testimony with respect to the
2 identification, or lack thereof, of Colonel Beara and Colonel Popovic was
3 as clear or not clear as it's going to get. I mean, I think I left it as
4 wide open and open-ended as possible, and he's answered it to the best of
5 his ability. I'm not sure what more can be accomplished by further
6 questions, but it is what it is.
7 With respect to my friend from the Miletic team, I followed up on
8 documents which she used, frankly, during her cross-examination to try to
9 explain where this fuel was coming from and for what purpose. She had
10 her interpretation of the documents which were used in the Blagojevic
11 case which she obviously knows about and had access to. Again, I don't
12 see any reason why we need to follow-up when she's had every opportunity.
13 We've had substantial questioning by both sides on these documents. She
14 chose to ask the questions she did. I don't think there is any new areas
15 that she could not have anticipated, and I'll leave it at that.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau, very briefly.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This is not
18 the document which I used during my cross-examination. I used only the
19 Bratunac Brigade document concerning fuel of the HCR or the DutchBat.
20 Here it is a document of 17 July, 1994
21 the staff of the Republika Srpska. This document has not been used at
22 all during my cross-examination nor during the direct examination.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: With all due respect to Mr. Thayer, I think his
25 comments related to me are quite disingenuous. Is their position that
1 Mr. Beara was in Potocari? Because we've seen throughout the course of
2 this trial that there has been no witness, no video, no pictures or any
3 witnesses, Bosnian, Muslim, Serb or DutchBat, who have testified that
4 they have seen or purportedly have seen Mr. Beara at Potocari. If he
5 wants to be fair --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop --
7 MR. OSTOJIC: -- he can tell the Court --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- stop.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: -- his position on Potocari.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: When I say stop it means stop and nothing else.
11 You know how far you can go in the presence of the witness, and you've
12 gone beyond. So please sit down, and we'll communicate our decision
13 after we've heard any redirect that Mr. Lazarevic may have.
14 Mr. Lazarevic, do you --
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I literally have, like, two
16 questions for this witness.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. Go ahead. Yes --
18 MR. THAYER: I just have one -- Mr. President, this P38 -- I
19 don't think I used either. Unless it's a different --
20 MS. FAUVEAU: Wrong number [Interpretation] P3820.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: 3820. All right. Okay.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: P3820.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, anything else.
24 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, again it's a document she had access
25 to and she was aware of.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Lazarevic, go ahead.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:
4 Q. Mr. Trisic, I have just a few short questions for you arising
5 from certain topics that were raised during cross-examination by my
6 learned friends. You were asked about the time you spent working as the
7 security organ for two months. From our point of view, it is not
8 important whether it was in August or September, but what I wanted to ask
9 you about that is this. We are still talking about 1992, are we not?
10 A. Yes, we are.
11 Q. And at the time, as we have already seen, the Bratunac Brigade
12 did not exist. According to the document that we had an occasion to see,
13 it was established in November 1992; isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And you also spoke about the 5th Battalion of the Birac Brigade;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's true.
18 Q. So when you spoke about the couple of months spent in the
19 position as the assistant commander for security and intelligence, you
20 were talking about the 5th Battalion of the Birac Brigade; isn't that
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Very well, then. Furthermore, you were asked about the order for
24 combat operations number 1 by the Drina Corps. We also had an occasion
25 to see this document, you will certainly remember, and we have come back
1 to that document with its corrections. Let's clarify one thing. Was
2 that an elaboration of the order that you received from the corps at your
3 level, at the brigade level?
4 A. Yes, that was it. It was the elaboration, our elaboration of
5 that order.
6 Q. And my last question for you is this. The Prosecutor asked and
7 you answered with a supposition. He asked you about a depot where the
8 Ministry of the Interior stored its materiel and technical equipment, and
9 you said that you supposed that it was probably in the MUP building. Do
10 you know if there was a MUP depot in Bratunac at all?
11 A. There was no depot as such. If they had any supplies, they could
12 have kept them in the MUP building. They did not have a depot outside of
13 the MUP building.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. This is all I had for you, sir.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I just need one clarification.
17 "If they had any supplies, they could have kept them in the MUP
18 building." That was the answer that the witness gave.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Ostojic, please proceed with your
21 questions and keep it as brief as possible, please.
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I will.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:
24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is John Ostojic, and I represent
25 Mr. Ljubisa Beara. I am going to ask you a couple of questions. Now, do
1 you recall, sir, your testimony, your sworn testimony in the Blagojevic
2 case that you gave on the 17th and 18th of May, 2004, when
3 Mr. Peter McCloskey asked you questions on cross, and the Defence lawyers
4 asked you a couple of questions on direct, that you were never asked
5 about this purported sighting or recollection that you claim to have had
6 with respect to Mr. Beara; is that correct?
7 A. You asked me if I remembered my testimony?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I don't remember that Mr. McCloskey asked me that when I
10 testified. You would have to show me a document to jog my memory.
11 Q. Okay. Fair enough. He never did, sir. I am representing that
12 to you, and they are welcome to stand up if my representations are wrong.
13 But based on the record that was kept there, the transcript is in
14 English, and I don't know if you can read or speak English, but in any
15 event, you were never asked those questions by either the OTP at that
16 time or the Defence counsel at that time; is that correct? To the best
17 of your recollection?
18 A. As far as I can remember, it is correct.
19 Q. Now, today you shared with us, on page 57 at line 15, that you
20 quote -- you said: "I think pressure was exerted on me." Do you see
21 that -- or do you remember saying that? Sorry.
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Now, share with us, and just to keep it in context for the
24 record, you are talking about your interview that was conducted on
25 November 26 of 2001. That's when you said you were being pressured or in
1 that context. Share with us some of the pressure that you felt that
2 Mr. Dean Manning, the investigator for the OTP, was placing on you in
3 order to testify.
4 A. The gist of my statement was that this interview lasted a long
5 time, a very long time, and from questions and answers during my
6 testimony, you can see that pressure was exerted when I was giving the
7 answers. I think that Mr. Manning insisted, and then after that, I
8 confirmed things. You can see uncertainty in my responses, whether this
9 was correct or not correct.
10 Q. Okay. And we'll get to that in a little bit. Do you recall
11 during that interview in 2001, the 26th of November, whether Mr. Manning
12 ever said that he didn't believe you? Is that the type of pressure --
13 like him telling you that you may not be telling truth, is that the type
14 of pressure that was being exerted on you, sir?
15 A. Mr. Manning told me that he didn't believe me. He didn't believe
16 what I was saying.
17 Q. And although my learned friend cited to the page, page 75, he
18 certainly didn't read it for the Court, that was immediately prior to the
19 time when you said or claimed that you thought you saw Mr. Beara in
20 Potocari, page 75. Specifically, I'm going to ask you this, sir: In
21 that interview on the 26th of November, 2001, do you remember at page 9,
22 lines 8 through 10, and I'm going to quote it for you. I don't think you
23 have it there. Mr. Thayer gave you a selected variation, not the entire
24 interview. But I'll read it to you.
25 Here's what Dean Manning says at line 8, again, page 9: "Okay.
1 Well, let's stick to the 12th of July. You've seen Mladic and Krstic
2 there. What other VRS officers did you see in Potocari on the 12th?"
3 You, sir, proceed to answer on line 10 of page 9: "I couldn't
4 tell precisely, so I would rather not to say anything. I'm not sure."
5 Do you remember giving that statements to Mr. Manning early on in
6 your interview of the 26th of November, 2001?
7 A. Sir, well, I didn't really find my way. I don't have the
8 documents in front of me now. I can't find it so quickly. I would like
9 to look at it once again.
10 Q. Mr. Trisic, and I -- that's a good point that you make. I didn't
11 have -- and I don't have with me the B/C/S version of the interview. I
12 only have the English one. And Mr. Thayer, as I mentioned, only gave you
13 portions of that interview, and I just read out from --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I notice Mr. Thayer standing.
15 MR. THAYER: I have a B/C/S copy. And I'm also having a hard
16 time finding the portion that my friend referred to at page 75, that he's
17 complaining about. But I have the -- it's in e-court, actually. We put
18 the B/C/S version in e-court.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: Well, let's take it one step at a time then. Why
20 don't we go first to page 75.
21 Q. Because I think my learned friend gave you that page because he
22 said page 75 through 77, so you should have that, sir, and I'm
23 particularly interested in lines 18. And I'll read it and you can
24 hopefully catch up and follow along, but it says at lines 18, and --
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Mr. President, the witness seems to need a little
1 assistance because he was given two sets of documents from the
2 Prosecution. If I could look at them, maybe I could help direct his
3 attention to it, with the Court's permission.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, show it to him, Mr. Ostojic.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. It's on the B/C/S version, page 74. There
6 is no line indication numbers, so it's just at the top of that page, but
7 corresponding in the English version on page 75, lines 18, as I think
8 I've said. So if you could just, with the Court's permission, just
9 direct his attention to the DM where Mr. Manning starts to tell him how
10 he could probably sleep better after you told him you were a bit afraid.
11 Q. Mr. Manning says this, sir: "I think that it would have been
12 much easier to sleep had you told us what you know. You said I didn't
13 believe you. I don't." End quote from Dean Manning. Do you see that?
14 A. Well, the text that I have doesn't go like that.
15 Q. Okay. Well, that's fine and we'll flush it out. Can you read to
16 us, in the point where the Madam Usher indicated that it says DM, why
17 don't you read that out to us, that first sentence. Read it out loud, if
18 you don't mind.
19 A. Very well. "DM: I think that it would be even easier for you to
20 sleep if you were to tell us all that you know. You said that I don't
21 believe you. I don't believe you."
22 Q. Okay, thank you. If I can stop you there, unless the Court wants
23 to go on, that's really the sentence that I was trying to read out.
24 Thank you for helping with that, and that was for the benefit of the
25 Prosecution because they couldn't find. But I'm done with that section.
1 What I would like to do, sir, is go to -- my point was -- and that was on
2 page 9 of the English version of the transcript where you specifically
3 state, in asking what other officers you may have seen in Potocari on the
4 12th, you state: "I couldn't tell precisely, so I would rather not to
5 say anything. I'm not sure."
6 And I could give that to you, because you asked, if I could just
7 have the B/C/S version --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: I will. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, how much longer do you have because we
11 still have Ms. Fauveau, as well.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: I will take probably the rest of the time,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I wanted to finish with this witness today.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: May I proceed, Mr. President?
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I can finish in about three
17 minutes. I can finish in about three minutes, if it can be helpful.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Then try to finish as soon as possible.
19 MR. OSTOJIC:
20 Q. It's in there. I don't think there is a dispute that's what you
21 said, sir. My question to you is this: As you sit here today under
22 oath, as you were under oath in Blagojevic, unlike during the testimony
23 or the same that you gave to Dean Manning on November 2001, do you -- I'm
24 telling you my case is that Mr. Beara was never in Potocari on July 12th,
25 1995. Do you have any reason to believe that or do you have any dispute
1 with that?
2 A. I do believe that.
3 Q. Thank you, sir. No further questions.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Madam Fauveau.
5 Further Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P3820.
7 Q. And while we wait, do you remember, sir, that when the Drina
8 Corps was created, was established, as it was at Han Pijesak? Do you
9 remember that at the beginning the seat of the corps was at Han Pijesak?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. Sir, in this document from line 2, one can see the military post
12 7111, it was okay, yes? It was marked. That's it. 7111. And just by
13 it -- just by the number 11, you see Vlasenica which is mentioned. Can
14 you see that?
15 A. I don't have that document. Ah, Vlasenica. Yes, I see. I see
16 Vlasenica now.
17 Q. Could the witness be shown the bottom of the page. And is it
18 true that the 35th logistic base was physically based in Bijeljina? If
19 you don't remember, it's all right.
20 A. I cannot remember right now.
21 Q. Okay. Now one can see at point 32 "allowed" or "authorised," and
22 then you can see handwritten Basevic. Can you see that? It's just at
23 the bottom of the document, just above the stamp.
24 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
25 Q. And Basevic is the logistics officer of the Drina Corps?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He is the one who approved sending this equipment, this
3 ammunition, these supplies to the Bratunac Brigade, isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you so much. I have no other questions.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. It was brought to my
8 attention that perhaps the question was awkward and the answer somewhat
9 ambiguous, on page 76, lines 19 through 25. So I do -- in an attempt to
10 rush through it. But I think if we read it --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Actually, you are absolutely right. We
12 were discussing, and we are going to put the question ourselves to
13 clarify it.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Fair enough.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Trisic, Mr. Ostojic told you at a certain point
16 in time, "I'm telling you that my case was that Mr. Beara was never in
17 Potocari on July 12th, 1995
18 And then he asked you: "Do you have any reason to believe that
19 or do you have any dispute with that?"
20 And according to what we have in the transcript, you just replied
21 "I do believe that." Can you clarify your answer and tell us exactly
22 what your position is in relation to what Mr. Beara's position is?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the statement, I said that
24 Mr. Beara, I think, was in Potocari. I think that he was; thus, I never
25 decisively, clearly said that he was there for sure. Later, from some
1 other information based on conversations and based on video footage, I
2 changed my opinion, and I'm not sure that I saw him in Potocari at that
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. There are no further questions
5 for you, sir. That means you are free to go. I thank you for having
6 come over and I also wish you a safe journey back home.
7 Documents we'll deal with tomorrow. Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
10 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the
11 22nd day of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.