1 Thursday, 30 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Madam Registrar. Could you call
7 the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 number IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. All the accused are present.
11 Prosecution is Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Thayer. The Defence teams are all
12 here, but I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes and
13 Mr. Ostojic.
14 Okay. Good afternoon to you, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back. We are going to continue with your
17 testimony and hopefully finish.
18 Mr. Lazarevic.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
21 WITNESS: MILAN STOJCINOVIC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpretation]
23 [Examination by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I would like to take you
25 back to the topic of the police forces staff on Mount Jahorina
1 you remember? Was the commander of that staff the same throughout the
2 staff's existence, or did various people take turn in that place?
3 A. There were very often very common changes in that place. I
4 believe that Dusko Jevic was the first, then Borovcanin, then Goran
5 Saric, but I am not sure about the last two.
6 Q. You mentioned Mr. Borovcanin as being the commander of that staff
7 for a while. To the best of your recollection, when was that
9 A. I'm not sure. I believe that it was in April 1995.
10 Q. And after him, can you remember who took over from him?
11 A. I think Goran Saric.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we please look at the
13 following document, which is 4D66.
14 Q. We can see that this is a dispatch by Commander Goran Saric, the
15 commander of the special brigade, dated 13 June 1995.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in to see when
17 Mr. Saric was appointed.
18 A. It was the 13th of you June.
19 Q. Now that we have looked at this document, I would like to ask you
20 one more thing about Mr. Saric. You see that Goran Saric will be in
21 command of the police staff on Jahorina and that his deputy will be the
22 assistant commander Mladenko Borovcanin. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. To the best of your recollection, what was Mladenko Borovcanin's
25 position in the special police brigade at the time? What was his
2 A. In any case, he was the assistant commander of the brigade, but I
3 am not sure what he was in charge of. I believe that he was in charge of
4 some sort of training.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one correction for the transcript. It's on
6 page 2, line 44. There is something here. It's on page 2, line 22. I
7 was referring to Mr. Borovcanin Mladenko, so just to have a clear record.
8 Q. With regard to this document, now that we have had an occasion to
9 see the document and the date on it, does this correspond with the time
10 when Mr. Saric took over the command of the staff?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. And you've told us that Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin was the staff
13 commander before him, to the best of your recollection?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And before that, we also saw documents dating from -- to April
16 1995 where Mr. Jevic is mentioned as the staff commander?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Very well. And now, I would like us to sidetrack a little and
19 ask you something about the special brigade. In addition to taking part
20 in combat, do you remember that the special police brigade performed
21 other duties in crisis situations? Are you familiar with any other type
22 of jobs that the brigade was involved in?
23 A. The special police brigade tasks did not concern waging a war,
24 but they concerned their own territory, policing in the territory.
25 During the war they were trained to perform such tasks that had to do
1 with the maintenance of public law and order, prevention of large scale
2 disruptions of public law and order, providing security for mass or
3 large-scale gatherings, providing security for various individuals and
4 facilities, prevention of the infiltration of sabotage and terrorists
5 groups, and also assisting the population in cases of disasters, natural
6 or others.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like us to look
8 at a few documents that might shed some light on what you have just
9 spoken about. May the Court please produce 4D631.
10 Q. This document has not been translated. The document is short,
11 however. It's a dispatch by the Ministry of the Interior dated 23
12 September, 1994. Somewhere in the middle of the document, it says: "I
13 hereby command members of the diving team of the special brigade police,"
14 under 1, "Ljubisa Borovcanin," under 2, "Mladenko Borovcanin," and there
15 are other names, a total of eight of them. And just for the record,
16 let's look at the last part of the document of the dispatch, which says:
17 "They insisted an enormous effort in searching the lake in Zvornik for
18 three days and managing to find the bodies" -- or rather, "the body of a
19 person mentioned herein."
20 My question to you is this, sir. Now that we see this document,
21 does this document illustrate some activities that members of the special
22 police brigade were engaged in?
23 A. I participated in this event. I was also involved in the
24 execution of this task and was commanded for that. Under number 2,
25 Mladenko Borovcanin, and under number 3, Goran Markovic are specials from
1 the -- the special police unit that was active before the war. Even
2 Tomislav Tutovic, they were all -- Tomislav Krstovic, they were all
3 trained before the war to perform diving tasks.
4 Q. Very well. We will no longer need these -- this document, and
5 just one more question about the staffs. Do you know whether the police
6 forces staffs were also formed for some other situations, not only for
7 the command and control of the police units? Were there some other
8 examples for which the police forces staffs were ever established?
9 A. This was dictated by practice. As soon as a situation occurred
10 on the ground which called for the participation of several segments of
11 the police force, in such situations a staff would be established
12 composed of the representatives of such formations for an easier command
13 and control of these units.
14 Q. Let's look at the following document. You are going to see it on
15 the screen before you.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] May the Court please produce
17 4D632. And again, unfortunately, I don't think we have received the
18 translation of this document. I believe this is the last document for
19 which a translation is still pending. The rest have been translated.
20 Q. We can see that this is a dispatch by the Ministry of the
21 Interior sent on the 17 February 1996
22 please. Let's look at the last two paragraphs on the second page. This
23 is an order which says: "I hereby order to launch the Winter '96
24 Operation and establish a security staff that will be composed of" -
25 under 1 - "Ljubisa Borovcanin, the chief of admission, the head of
1 staff." And in order to provide a complete picture of the situation,
2 could we please scroll up to the top of the document.
3 You see that the national assembly of Republika Srpska was in
4 session under special circumstances. Was that the reason for the
5 establishment of the staff?
6 A. This was post-Dayton Accords. This was post-war, and both sides
7 were unhappy. The specificity of the situation consisted in the fact
8 that the Serbian people did not accept what our representatives had
9 signed, so the assembly session had to be secured.
10 Q. But war was still going on in the Republika Srpska, was it not?
11 A. Well, yes, more or less.
12 Q. And on the entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes, but this had nothing to do with the -- the enemy's side.
14 These were our own inner struggles. There were a lot of people present,
15 and this called for a larger-scale security, and several police units had
16 to participate in that from the security centres, from the brigades. A
17 staff had to be established because somebody had to be in control.
18 Q. And we can see on this side that Mr. Borovcanin was appointed as
19 the head of this staff, and if we move to the following page we will see
20 who else was on the staff, who were the other members of the staff. I
21 don't think it says -- it is necessary, but we can see the functions of
22 the members of the staff. It says the chief of the administration of
23 public security, the chief of the public security station in Pale, and I
24 don't think we have to go any further.
25 And if you look at the following paragraph, you will see that it
1 says the security staff will draft a plan with concrete measures of
2 operative, physical, technical, traffic, and other forms of security and
3 will appoint persons in charge. The document was signed by Minister
4 Dragan Kijac.
5 Now that we have seen this document, can you please tell me
6 whether this would be a situation in which the police forces staff was
7 established for some activities which were not can combat activities by
8 their nature?
9 A. You're right. This was not about any combat activities. This
10 was about providing security in order to prevent any disruptions or
11 incidents. This was common practice.
12 Q. Very well. And now, I would like us to move on to the events
13 that took place in 1995. Tell me just briefly. My questions are going
14 to be very relative, and if there is no need I am going to ask for
15 clarification and further explanation. But first of all, tell me, do you
16 know that at one point in time in 1995 a -- a staff was established in
17 Pale, a staff took control and command of police forces?
18 A. Yes, I often go there to deliver mail or to receive tasks. The
19 staff was billeted in a catering facility called Tron.
20 Q. When was that? When was that staff established to the best of
21 your recollection?
22 A. I am not sure, but in 1995 it was operational.
23 Q. And can you please remember the reasons for which the staff was
25 A. Well, the reasons were because of the enemy offensive that
1 already commenced in spring 1995.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to have a look
3 at the following document, 4D139.
4 Q. While we're waiting for it to appear on the screen, let me tell
5 you that it's a document from the office of the Minister of the Interior
6 of Republika Srpska. It's dated the 16th of June, 1995. It contains
7 conclusions from the meeting of the Minister of the Interior, a meeting
8 that was held on the same day.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at the second
10 page of the document. Let's have a look at item A1. AD1, it says.
11 Q. As we can see, it says after having discussed the current
12 military situation in the republic as a result of an intensive enemy
13 action against all lines in Republika Srpska, the following conclusions
14 were adopted. Item 4 says: "In the Tron facility in Pale, form a staff
15 for commanding police units." [No interpretation]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Hold it because we are not --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. The microphone was
18 not switched on.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed. Thank you. You need to repeat
20 please, Mr. Lazarevic.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Having examined the document, and you already told us that you
23 are aware of the existence of this staff, and you also said that it was
24 located in the Tron facility in Pale, we could see that it's the 16th of
25 July, 1995, that that is the date. So does this help you to find your
1 bearings with regard to when this staff was actually established?
2 A. I think that this was a staff -- headquarters of the staff, but
3 the staff was previously formed. I know that the commander was Mr. Tomo
4 Kovac, Tomislav Kovac. The chief of the cabinet is the signature. This
5 is from relevant officers from the Ministry of the Interior of the
6 Republika Srpska. I know almost all of them.
7 Q. And obviously on the 16th of June, well, that's the date when
8 this decision was taken, the decision to form the staff; is that correct?
9 A. That's quite possible.
10 Q. Very well.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's move on to another subject
12 now. Let's have a look at 4D272.
13 Q. This is a law on modifications and amendments to the law, on
14 applying the law on army and conditions of an imminent threat of war or
15 of a state of war. The date is the 12th of May, 1995. It was published
16 in Official Gazette 7/95.
17 And I'd like to have a look at a very brief law. Let's first
18 have a look at item 2 -- paragraph 2 under Article 1. It says that
19 "Recruits enlisted for the VES, for the military police. May be signed
20 to do their military service in special units of the Ministry of the
22 The following paragraph in this article says that: "The
23 contingent of recruits from the previous paragraph shall be trained
24 according to the training programme for members of special units of the
25 Ministry of the Interior."
1 So I would first like to ask you whether at the time you found
2 out that this law had been amended, this law that allowed recruits to
3 serve in units of the Ministry of the Interior, and when I say to serve
4 there, I mean to do their military service there.
5 A. I didn't have this law in front of me, but I'm familiar with
6 these provisions in the form of dispatches received in the police.
7 Q. Very well.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And I'd now like to have a look
9 at the following document, 4D626.
10 Q. You said that you were familiar with the amendments to the law,
11 and you also said that you'd been informed about these amendments in
12 dispatches. Have a look at this document. Now, is this what you were
13 referring to? This is, in fact, a dispatch?
14 A. Yes, that's a -- the kind of dispatch I was talking about.
15 Q. And as we can see, it's addressed to various parts of the MUP --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked to repeat what he
17 said, as there was overlapping.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: There was overlapping, and the interpreter would
19 like you to repeat what you said, please, in your last answer.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At the end -- well, the
21 dispatch is addressed to various departments but to everyone in the end.
22 So the entire Ministry of the Interior was familiar with this.
23 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Very well. My following question with regard to the law that we
25 have examined and the dispatch that we have seen, in accordance with
1 these amendments to the law, at some point in time did a group of
2 recruits start arriving on Jahorina for the sake of training as stated in
3 this law?
4 A. Well, on the basis of this law we started preparations for doing
5 one's military service within the Ministry of the Interior; and at the
6 time, during this period of time, were commenced on Jahorina. And in
7 order to see how this would function, because we weren't sure about this,
8 we had a pilot project that was to include 35 recruits on Jahorina.
9 Q. Tell me, as far as you can remember, when did this, roughly
10 speaking, happen?
11 A. I think this was in mid-June 1995.
12 Q. Very well. So training of recruits who were doing their military
13 service was concerned?
14 A. Yes. These were young men whose duty it was to do their military
16 Q. Very well. I'd now like to deal with another category that
17 arrived on Jahorina at one point in time.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at 4DP1. It's
19 an order from the president of the Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic,
20 dated the 16th of June, 1995.
21 Q. And the strictest measures for combat preparation are being
22 introduced for combat-readiness. Let's have a look at the first page,
23 item 3. Item 3, paragraph 2, it's in the lower part of the document.
24 Here it says that the Ministry of the Interior and of -- the
25 Interior will do the necessary for the return of military conscripts from
1 the Serbia
2 I'd now like to have a look at page 3 in this document in the
3 B/C/S version, the second paragraph where it says: "The army Main Staff
4 shall use the command to secure the reception of mobilized recruits.
5 They will accept them and introduce them to the units," and they will
6 also provide them with the necessary training.
7 Having seen this document, tell me, do you remember any
8 activities that have to do with bringing in military conscripts, and this
9 was done by the Republika Srpska MUP?
10 A. I am familiar with this order in the form of internal dispatches
11 in the Ministry of the Interior, and I know that this was in fact done.
12 Q. In order to make a distinction in the training centre on
13 Jahorina, as you have already said, we had individuals who attended a
14 policemen's course; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then we had recruits who were doing their military service in MUP
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And this, now, is the third category that is trained in the
20 centre for training individuals on Jahorina?
21 A. Well, at the time it wasn't in the form of a centre. At the time
22 we called it a camp, a training camp. But the number of men increased as
23 a result of these men being brought in from the Federal Republic
25 Q. And now that we are discussing this category, we are talking
1 about military conscripts who left the territory of Republika Srpska
2 avoid serving in the armed forces. What was the name?
3 A. The usual name, deserters.
4 Q. Tell me, at some point in time, did these deserters start
5 arriving in the centre?
6 A. Within a two-day period, from the beginning of the second half of
7 June, I can't exactly remember the date, but in two days over 200 such
8 individuals arrived.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to have a look
10 at the following document, 4D511. It's a report on the work of the
11 special police brigade for June 1995, and if we could have a look at the
12 second page. Very well. Could we zoom in a bit? I am interested in the
13 third paragraph on the second page. It's page 1 in the English version.
14 It's somewhere in the middle of the paragraph, and it says the camp for
15 receiving and training military conscripts have been returned from the
16 SRJ, has started operating -- or started operating on Jahorina on the
17 22nd of June, 1995. It was organised by the senior command officers and
18 the brigade instructor team.
19 Q. Can you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And tell me, now, having seen this document, does this period of
22 time correspond to the time-period that you remember as being the time
23 when the centre for training on Jahorina commenced with its work?
24 A. Well, this only confirms what I can remember.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have a look at
1 4D119 now. It's a dispatch from the deputy minister of the MUP dated the
2 23rd of June, 1995.
3 Q. We have it on the screen now. And in this dispatch, the deputy
4 minister is informing the president of Republika Srpska about the number
5 of military conscripts delivered by the Serbian MUP. You can see that in
6 the first paragraph of the dispatch.
7 So, tell me, here it says that a total of 1.586 conscripts were
8 handed over to the VRS forces, the Republika Srpska army, and out of that
9 number 149 conscripts were handed over to the MUP staff on Jahorina.
10 Does this, roughly speaking, confirm what you have been saying about the
11 arrival of these people who were sent to Jahorina?
12 A. Yes, that's true. But this number, 149 conscripts, was
13 augmented. Another 70 or 80 individuals should be added to that number.
14 Q. Very well. When bringing these individuals in, as far as you can
15 remember, were there any mistakes made? Were any individuals brought in
16 who were soon sent back to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
17 A. Well, there were several dozen individuals who had mistakenly
18 been brought in because perhaps they didn't have ID on them at the time.
19 But as soon as evidence was found, they were sent back immediately.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's now have a look
21 at 4D628. It's a dispatch from the staff taking in military conscripts
22 from SRJ -- from the SRJ. Its headquarters are in Bijeljina. It's
23 addressed to the deputy minister of the MUP on the 27th of June, 1995
24 Q. If we look at the first paragraph, the introduction, can we see
25 from it that a request arrived from the Serbian MUP for certain
1 conscripts to be urgently returned to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
2 and a list of eight names is referred to?
3 A. Yes, there were people like that in 1995.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at the
5 following document, 4D629. This is an order by the president of the
6 Republika Srpska sent to the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska
7 and the MUP of the Republika Srpska on the 28th of June, 1995.
8 Q. We see in this order that people who had been delivered to
9 Republika Srpska by mistake are ordered to return -- or to be returned,
10 rather. My question in this regard is as follows: This document and the
11 previous one that we just saw, do they refer to what you were just
12 talking about; i.e., that there was a number of people who had been
13 delivered to Republika Srpska by mistake?
14 A. This is the same, but these are interventions that reach the
15 office of the president of the Republic, and hence, his order.
16 Basically, it's about the same cases.
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at another
18 document in this regard, 4D630 is the number. Again, its a dispatch by
19 the deputy of the Ministry of the Interior, dated 13 July 1995, sent to
20 the president of Republika Srpska.
21 Q. And we can see in this dispatch that the deputy minister informs
22 the president about the implementation of the MUP Serbia action to return
23 military conscripts to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and that a
24 total of 43 persons who had been mistaken by a mistake to the republic,
25 mostly citizens of the state of Serbia
1 My question about the three documents, do they demonstrate the
2 principle based on which the return of these individuals was carried out?
3 A. Yes. This is correspondence between the Ministry of the Interior
4 and the president of the republic about the same thing, about dealing
5 with the same problem.
6 Q. If I understood the procedure well, the MUP Serbia sent their
7 request, then the president issued his order for some individuals to be
8 returned. This was done by the MUP Republika Srpska and informed the
9 president of Republika Srpska of that.
10 A. Yes, that's exactly how it was.
11 Q. What about the individuals who were not returned to the Federal
12 Republic of Yugoslavia
13 training? According to the best of your recollection, were they treated
14 differently then the other categories of trainees, and if your answer is
15 "yes," could you please explain the difference?
16 A. Yes, there was a difference in attitude. It was a very peculiar
17 group of young men, aged between 25 and 35, a very non-homogenous group.
18 First, they had to be kept together, keep them confined, so to speak, so
19 that they could not run away. And then we had to work with them, and we
20 had to turn them into a -- into soldiers. That's what we called them at
21 the time. That's what we called the process at the time.
22 Q. But my question applied to the other two categories, recruits
23 serving in the army and trainees for the policemen. Was the treatment
25 A. The first two category were volunteers, and the third category
1 had been forced to be there. They were not really confined. They were
2 not enclosed.
3 Q. Just for a clarification. When you say they were volunteers,
4 that means that they were there on their own will? I just want to avoid
5 any confusion.
6 A. Police trainees and military conscripts were there of their own
7 will, and the others had been forced to be there. Able-bodied men who
8 had fled to the federal state of Yugoslavia had been forced to be there
9 to perform their civic duty.
10 Q. Now that we're talking about the state category that we will call
11 deserters, had they had their personal IDs removed from them?
12 A. Many of them did not have them at all. But those who did, yes,
13 the documents were taken from them.
14 Q. And when it comes to the freedom of movement, were they
15 restricted, the deserters? Did they have any restrictions on their
16 freedom of movement?
17 A. Jahorina Mountain
18 movement. There was nowhere to go. They could go to the nearest
19 newsstand to buy newspapers. They adapted to that, but they were not
20 allowed to leave the mountain, although they asked for that very often.
21 For example, they wanted to go to see the doctor. They would be taken
22 there but under escort. We wanted to prevent any situations of
24 Q. Do you remember whether they were organised in one unit or
25 several units? How was their stay organised?
1 A. They were organised in two companies of three or four platoons.
2 After such a long time, I can't remember exactly. I know that they were
3 organised in two companies.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at another document,
5 which is 4D352. This is a daily report from the training camp on Mount
6 Jahorina. The assistant of the special police brigade sends that to the
7 Ministry of the Interior, and the date is the 31st of July, 1995
8 Can we scroll down a little?
9 Q. Who signed this document, please?
10 A. I am the signatory. Actually, I signed the document on behalf of
11 my commander, Dusko Jevic. I drafted the document.
12 Q. In this report, we can see that there are 251 [as interpreted]
13 police trainees and 31 recruits on the list.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And they are on Mount Jahorina
16 the lower part that one person left the camp without permission. His
17 name is mentioned in here. I would like us to focus on the handwritten
18 part of this document in the top part of the page. Could you please read
19 the handwritten part. What does it say here?
20 A. It says: "Pekic informed the administration of the crime police
21 about this so that they will be able to issue a search warrant and inform
22 the Serbian MUP thereof."
23 This is a daily report. It was our obligation to send daily
24 reports on all the changes that took place in our camp. This was a
25 change and a wanted notice had to be issued, and the handwritten remarks
1 were probably added in the minister's office.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's now look at the following
3 document. 4D353 is the number of the document --
4 JUDGE PROST: [Realtime transcript read in error, "Madam Fauveau"]
5 Mr. Lazarevic, just before you leave the document, I don't know how
6 significant it is, but in the transcript at page 18, line 8 and 9, it
7 talks about the document recording 251 police trainees and 31 recruits,
8 whereas the document itself refers to 201 conscripts and 35 recruits. So
9 I think the transcript is probably in error. I don't know if it was
10 translation or what it was, just for clarity of the record.
11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. You are absolutely
12 correct, and it does say 201 military conscripts.
13 [Interpretation] 4D353 is the document I would kindly ask the
14 Court to produce. Again, this is another daily report from the training
15 camp on Jahorina. The assistant commander of the special police brigade
16 sent this document to the Ministry of the Interior, and the date is the
17 1st of August, 1995.
18 Q. Does this document also bear your signature?
19 A. Yes, this is my signature.
20 Q. And again, we can see a handwritten remark: Pekic told Bijeljina
21 UKP, crime police administration, about this deserter to issue a wanted
22 notice and inform the MUP, the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia.
23 Does this tell you something about who had the authority to issue
24 wanted notice and bring the deserter in?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: If I could add something to what my colleague,
1 Judge Prost, said. Line 25 of page 18 describes the words of Judge Prost
2 as being those of Madam Fauveau. That's not correct, so the transcript
3 will be corrected in due course.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And now that we have seen the two documents -- I apologise. I
6 can see now that you have not answered my question about the authority
7 over issuing wanted notices. Does this document illustrate that?
8 A. Obviously, neither the training camp nor the command of the
9 special police brigade were authorised to issue wanted notices.
10 Q. And now that we have seen the two documents, do they show that
11 there were both recruits and military conscripts in the camp, and do
12 these documents also show what kind of training they underwent?
13 A. The number of 35 recruits had already started their training
14 according to plan, and this was just the continuation of the
15 implementation of this plan. And as for the 200 military conscripts,
16 i.e. deserters, we only did the most basic infantry training starting
17 with the lining up, moving, greetings, and then we took it day by day.
18 Our situation gradually improved.
19 Q. And now tell me whether the deserters received any theoretical
21 A. No. There was nothing by way of theory.
22 Q. You've already told us about the deserters' training, and you
23 said that their training differed from the other categories. Was it
24 better, more intense, less intense?
25 A. It was much simpler, and it had to be forced upon them, if I may
1 put it that way.
2 Q. How long did their training last? Was it shorter than the
3 training of the other categories of individuals? I am referring to the
4 two categories that we referred to; i.e., police trainees and recruits
5 who were serving their -- in the units of the Ministry of the Interior.
6 A. Their training was really short, maybe not even a month, and then
7 they would be sent off into battle. Our comment was that they started
8 resembling soldiers.
9 Q. Now that you have said that, in your view were the deserters
10 really capable of participating in combat activities? Did you enable
11 them to do that?
12 A. Since they had all served in the army before, they had all
13 undergone compulsory military service, they did not differ much from any
14 other members of the army of Republika Srpska. This particular
15 preparation was not enough if it had been the only thing, but it could
17 Q. Did you ever learn that one of the units composed of deserters
18 was supposed to be sent off to Srebrenica or was to be engaged in the
19 events surrounding Srebrenica?
20 A. I believe that this was on the 11th of July, 1995, when the first
21 unit -- actually, the first company from the camp was lined up and sent
22 on a mission. At that time, I was really busy. I was over the head, and
23 my memory is jogged by the subsequent dates.
24 Q. Tell me, did you find out where that company went?
25 A. I only found that they were heading in the direction of Bratunac.
1 Q. Were you personally present when the unit was preparing to leave
2 or when it left?
3 A. On a number of occasions, yes, but briefly while passing by.
4 Q. To the best of your recollection, was the departure of the unit a
5 departure that had been previously planned, or was the unit suddenly
6 engaged and sent off?
7 A. All this happened all of a sudden. We in the camp were also
9 Q. To the best of your recollection, how many individuals were there
10 in that unit?
11 A. If you have the first company that we mentioned in mind, perhaps
12 about a hundred men.
13 Q. Tell me, were all these men in the company deserters?
14 A. Yes, apart from the company commander and the instructor from the
15 brigade command.
16 Q. Tell me, as far as you can remember, what sort of weapons were
17 they issued with when they left?
18 A. They had automatic and semi-automatic rifles.
19 Q. And tell me, apart from these weapons what sort of equipment were
20 they given, if they were given any particular kind of equipment?
21 A. I think they had a minor quantity of flak jackets - I don't know
22 what make, perhaps Borovo ones - and they had camouflage uniforms; the
23 colours were simple colours, and that was all.
24 Q. Were they given heavier weapons, perhaps grenades or something
25 like that?
1 A. No. We didn't have any grenades.
2 Q. Can you tell me who the commander of the unit was, the commander
3 of that company that left on that occasion?
4 A. On the 11th of July, 1995, Mendeljevic [Realtime transcript read
5 in error, "Mendarovic"] Djuric led the 1st company. It's not Mendarovic.
6 It's Mendeljevic, LJ.
7 Q. Very well. This will be corrected. This often happens when we
8 have names. What I wanted to ask you is whether you saw Ljubomir
9 Borovcanin at any point in time when this unit of deserters was setting
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you remember how this unit was transported to Bratunac?
13 A. I think buses were used.
14 Q. Did you know that that unit, that company, was to be part of a
15 joint-MUP forces and Mr. Borovcanin had been designated as the commander
16 of those forces?
17 A. I wasn't aware of that at the time.
18 Q. And let me ask you the following: Do you know that another
19 company was sent to the wider area of Bratunac?
20 A. Yes, a day or two after the 1st company.
21 Q. This was also a company of deserters from Jahorina?
22 A. It was the same.
23 Q. And tell me, do you know who issued the order? Did an order
24 arrive, an order that you saw with regard to sending this 2nd company
25 there? Did you hear anything about this if you didn't personally receive
1 such an order?
2 A. I can't remember, but such an order could only have come from the
3 police forces staff.
4 Q. When you say the "police forces staff," are you referring to the
5 staff in Tron that we have already spoken about?
6 A. Yes. These were matters that they were responsible for.
7 Q. And tell me now, do you know where these companies, the 1st or
8 the 2nd company, stayed while they were in that area?
9 A. I don't know because I wasn't familiar with that area, in any
10 case, with the area of Bratunac.
11 Q. Do you perhaps know that while they were there in the field they
12 carried out certain activities, and if they did, what kind of activities?
13 A. I'm not certain that I know anything about that.
14 Q. And one more question about the matter. Do you know who was in
15 command of these companies, or rather, were they subordinated to anyone,
16 and if so, to whom?
17 A. I think it was quite natural that the chief of the camp commanded
18 these companies. As to whom they were subordinated to in the field, I
19 don't know.
20 Q. Tell me, as far as you can remember, can you remember how long
21 these units stayed in that area around Srebrenica?
22 A. I think it was between for six and eight days.
23 Q. Tell me, now, did the members of the unit, did the deserters
24 having stayed in that area around Srebrenica return to the centre, to the
25 training centre, on Jahorina?
1 A. Yes, most of them returned to Jahorina, although some were
2 wounded and some were perhaps even killed in the action. But some, since
3 they were near Drina
4 deserting again.
5 Q. Tell me, now, did some of the deserters or some of the members of
6 the special police brigade ever tell you anything about the tasks that
7 they had during that period while they were in the field?
8 A. No, they didn't tell me anything about that. If anything was
9 said, it was to the effect that they had to secure roads and do things
10 like that. I'm not certain whether these are memories I have that date
11 back to that period or whether they are subsequent memories due to the
12 media, et cetera.
13 Q. Tell me, do you know anything about the events that took place in
14 July 1995? Do you have either personal knowledge, or did you receive
15 information about such events? Do you have any knowledge about events in
16 a place called Sandici?
17 A. I don't have any direct information, only information that
18 ordinary people had, information that ordinary people had through
19 television, the newspaper, et cetera.
20 Q. Do you have any direct or indirect knowledge? Did you hear
21 anything from deserters or members of the special police brigade with
22 regard to events on the 13th of July, 1995, in the agricultural
23 cooperative in Kravica on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road?
24 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. All I know about Kravica is what I
25 learned from the news, when there were reports on Serbs who had been
1 killed at the beginning of 1993, at the time of Orthodox Christmas 1993.
2 Q. I think part of your answer to the previous question hasn't been
3 recorded in the transcript. Did you say that you didn't even know where
4 Sandici was?
5 A. No, I don't know where Sandici is located, and I still don't know
6 where Sandici is located.
7 Q. And tell me, when returning from the field, what was the status
8 of these deserters? Did they continue to receive training? Were they
9 provided with any additional training?
10 A. I think that we still trained them for a while. Most of them
11 agreed to bear the arms and wear the uniforms of the Republika Srpska
13 Q. And tell me, after this event, were these people asked to join
14 the army or the MUP of the Republika Srpska? Did they join these bodies
15 or both of them?
16 A. If we believed that the men were valuable and if they accepted
17 the offer to remain in police units, well, in that case, they remained in
18 the police units, whereas the others were sent to military units, or
19 rather, they were handed over to the Republika Srpska army.
20 Q. Just a few more questions before we move on to another subject.
21 Can you tell me whether the Jahorina centre also provided training in the
22 second half of 1995?
23 A. We've been discussing the period during which it was a training
24 camp, and after this situation with the deserters, I can't remember
25 exactly, but I think that it was in August or September over 200 men
1 arrived to do their military service. I don't know the exact number of
2 recruits concerned. They were young conscripts, and they came to do
3 their military service, and from that time onwards, the name of the
4 centre was a centre for training, and we had a new structure for command
5 and control.
6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have a look at
7 the following document, 4D95. It's a report for the special police
8 brigade for the period January to September 1995; although, here it says
9 it's up to the 15th of October, 1995. What I would like to have a look
10 at is page 5 of the B/C/S version of the document, and it's page 4 in the
11 English version.
12 Q. Can you see that under number -- under Roman (iv) it says
14 In the second paragraph, it says, In the period from the 19th of
15 June, 1995, until the 2nd of August, 1995, training was provided for 205
16 deserters who had been brought into the camp for taking in and training
17 deserters. They had been brought in from SR Yugoslavia. It says,
18 Currently on the training camp on Jahorina, there are 184 recruits who
19 are doing their military service in the Ministry of the Interior of
20 Republika Srpska.
21 Tell me, does this correspond to what you can remember about that
22 period and to what you can remember about the number of recruits who were
23 doing their military service in the MUP?
24 A. Well, this is a report for a nine-month period. It's been
25 compiled on the basis of the monthly reports for the year, although at
1 the time we didn't have any deserters, but this is mentioned on the basis
2 of previous reports and dates provided. But at the time, we were working
3 with recruits, and this the correct number of recruits that we were
4 working with. We are talking about the regular army here.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. And before we have
6 the break, I'd like to have a look at one more document, 4D94. It's a
7 report on the work of the Republika Srpska MUP in 1995. Let's have a
8 look at page 6 in the document, in the B/C/S version. It's page 2 in the
9 English version. Can we please zoom in just a little.
10 Q. Now, what I would like to hear from you is this: I would like to
11 draw your attention to paragraphs 4, 5, and 6 in this document. In
12 paragraph 4, it says that in March 1995 a training course for policemen
13 was organised for 195 trainees. Then in the following paragraph, it says
14 that the instructor team also trained 202 military conscripts on Jahorina
15 and the course lasted two months and that in June, 235 military
16 conscripts who are serving in the MUP units are being trained on Jahorina
17 in a centre that had just been established. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes. This is just a compilation of monthly reports, which just
19 repeats the things that we have already discussed here dealing with the
20 training course for policemen, i.e., people whom police units sent for
21 additional training. The instruction team also trained military
22 conscripts on Jahorina, and the course lasted for two months. Those were
23 military conscripts that were brought in from the federal republic of
25 training centre on Jahorina had been established based on the camp for
1 reception, and there we at that moment had 235 a recruits or -- who are
2 serving their military service in the police.
3 Q. And we can see all the three categories that underwent training
4 in the training camp on Jahorina, and we can also see the time intervals
5 when their training was organised.
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And now just one more question about this topic. According to
8 your recollection, how long for did the centre continue to operate?
9 A. I believe that it was until maybe February or March, perhaps,
10 when we received an order to bring our operations to an end on Mount
11 Jahorina, to vacate the facilities of the Jahorina Hotel that would be
12 prepared for the accommodation of refugees from the municipalities of
13 Ilijas, Vogosca, and Ilidza, I believe. There was a time when Serbs were
14 leaving en mass, they were leaving Sarajevo
15 Q. Just for the clarity of the record, I would like to ask you
16 something. What year are we talking about?
17 A. 1996, the beginning of 1996, and I believe that it was in the
18 month of March, but I'm not sure.
19 Q. Very well.
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: I am going to go on to the another topic, so
21 maybe it's a convenient time to the adjourn.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic, we will have a
23 25-minute break. Thank you.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic. How much longer?
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I believe 30 more
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
5 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Sir, I would like us to move on to a completely different
7 subject, which is informing within the special police brigade.
8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's first look at document
10 Q. This is a report on the engagement in combat of the special
11 police brigade in the Majevica theater of war in 1995 -- in April 1995.
12 Very well. Could we please first look at the cover page that is
13 in front of us, and now we will have the English version as well. I've
14 already described the nature of the document. Have you had an occasion
15 to see this and documents of this type?
16 A. Yes. This is a very customary way of reporting, was carried out
17 in the police.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the last page
19 in B/C/S.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Off mic.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you recognise Mr. Borovcanin's handwriting in this report as
23 the person who submitted the report?
24 A. That's Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin's initial.
25 Q. In terms of the form of this report, would this be a typical
1 report on the engagement of the special police brigade?
2 A. Yes, very typical.
3 Q. What is the nature of this report? Is that an external report or
4 an internal report within the special police brigade?
5 A. This is internal reporting.
6 Q. And now, based on the information entered in such an internal
7 report, what happens to the information next?
8 A. This is reporting to the immediate superior. I suppose that this
9 followed some sort of verbal reporting, and this report subsequently
10 serves as part of a future compilation report, which is sent out monthly
11 or quarterly or annually, and it is filed.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at the following
13 document, which is P92. Let's look at the last page of this report,
14 please. The bottom part, if this could be zoomed in.
15 Q. Do you see the signature on this report?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Is this Mr. Borovcanin's signature?
18 A. I'm sure that this is not his handwriting.
19 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's move on to
20 4D510. This is another report on the engagement of the forces of the
21 special police brigade and other forces in the Srebrenica '95 operation.
22 As far as the wording of the document is concerned and its contents,
23 these are practically identical with the previous document but this copy
24 also has a cover page unlike the other ones.
25 Can we please look at the last page of the document. Very well.
1 Can we now move to the last segment of the document. Can we scroll down
2 a little, please? Thank you.
3 Q. Can you see the initial on the document, and can you tell us who
4 the initial belongs to? The document has been initialed --
5 A. This seems to be the same report, but this is now Mr. Ljubomir
6 Borovcanin's initial.
7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I think it would be appropriate for
8 the witness to take off his earphones at this point because I would like
9 to the address the Trial Chamber and maybe have some stipulation with my
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if he understands English first. Do you
12 understand English?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A few words, maybe. Yes and no.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's too little, but not a few. All right.
15 Remove your headphones, please.
16 You are addressing the Trial Chamber in English, I suppose --
17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Yes, that's what I'm going to
19 Your Honours, the position of Mr. Borovcanin Defence, and I
20 believe the Prosecution shares the same position, is that this is the
21 original of the document. Last time, when Mr. Borovcanin was on his
22 custodial release, he managed to find two of these reports, the first one
23 that we saw from the Majevica theater of war, and this is the other one.
24 As soon as we found those documents, we gave two originals to the
25 Prosecution in order to just make all additional checkings, whether they
1 have any objections to this, and I was informed by Mr. Thayer that they
2 can confirm that these are original documents. Those are 4D509 and
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you confirm that, Mr. Thayer?
5 MR. THAYER: I do, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Then we can proceed now.
7 All right. It's okay. This is harmless. So let's proceed
9 Mr. Lazarevic.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can I go back to the first page of 4D510, please. This document
12 seems to have been drafted on the 5th of September, 1995, and it concerns
13 a period in July 1995. Can you explain, why was the report drafted in
14 September 1995? What might be the reason?
15 A. I suppose that the person who drafted the report did not find the
16 time to do it sooner. However, for the purposes of collective reporting
17 and statistical reasons, he subsequently drafted it upon the insistence
18 of his superior.
19 Q. We saw a report from Majevica as well. Would you say that this
20 would be the same type of reporting as the previous one? The report that
21 we have in front of us, would that be the same kind of report as the one
22 from Majevica that we saw previously?
23 A. Yes. That's the same kind of reporting that fall under the
24 obligation to file reports.
25 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at the following
1 document, which is 4D511. This is a report on the work of the special
2 police brigade for June 1995. The document contains three pages; it's a
3 three-page long document. Can we please take a look at all the three
4 pages before we start commenting upon the document.
5 And now, can we please dwell upon the third page of the document
6 a bit longer. And can we please scroll down, just a little bit. In the
7 bottom left part of the document, we see the initials SM/VZ.
8 Q. Do you know who the initials belonged to?
9 A. These are my initials, Milan, and there was the typist, Veljko
10 Zeljko. I often had to draft these reports, these monthly reports. They
11 were compiled on the basis of reports from all units of the brigade and
13 Q. Very well.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Mr. Thayer.
15 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I just note that I think we are in
16 open session, and I don't know whether we need to do something about
17 that. I don't want to say anything further.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, maybe it is --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think -- I think it's safe enough. We can
20 proceed. But thank you very much, Mr. Thayer, for pointing that out.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Tell me, the report we have just seen, is it a typical monthly
24 report from the special police brigade?
25 A. Yes. There were particular reports that were also drafted for
1 each month.
2 Q. Very well. Let's just go back to the first page very briefly.
3 We can see a number in the top left-hand corner; is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And monthly reports had such protocol numbers, monthly reports
6 from the special brigade?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Each one was -- if we remember the previous ones, the report on
9 action in the Srebrenica battlefield in Majevica, they didn't have such
10 numbers. Is that because they were internal documents or documents that
11 are sent -- monthly reports that are sent, reports from the brigade?
12 A. Internal reports that we had a look at form part of this report,
13 but only in so far as they are a collection of reports, a summary of
15 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have a look at
16 one more document, 4D95. It's a report on the work of the special police
17 brigade for the period January to September 1995, and it says that the
18 report concerns a period from the 1st of January, 1995, until the 15th of
19 October, 1995.
20 Q. Is this an external report from the brigade?
21 A. Well, this is a report addressed to the Ministry of Internal
23 Q. And here, we can also see that there is a protocol number on this
24 document; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And tell me, you've already seen this document. I won't go into
2 its contents, but is it a typical periodical report from the special
3 police brigade? If you like, have a look at it. Refresh your memory.
4 A. Yes, it's a periodic report on the brigade's work. We're dealing
5 with nine months.
6 Q. I just have a few more questions. In the Republika Srpska MUP,
7 were there a number of individuals or just one individual whose surname
8 was Borovcanin?
9 A. In the area around Sarajevo
10 the police force itself, I know five or six Borovcanins, some of whom are
11 my friends.
12 Q. But to be a little more concrete, in the special police brigade
13 were there a number of individuals who had the surname "Borovcanin"?
14 A. In addition to Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin, Mladenko Borovcanin, the
15 deputy command of the brigade; and Danko Borovcanin, a member of one of
16 the brigade detachments; and Borovcanin in the Sarajevo centre of public
17 security had this surname; and there were some others, too.
18 Q. Tell me, was Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin usually addressed as
20 A. Yes. In fact, there were very few who were aware of the fact
21 that his name was Ljubomir.
22 Q. And do you know that in the MUP there was one other individual
23 whose name was Ljubisa Borovcanin?
24 A. I know someone called Ljubisa Borovcanin. He was a -- he was in
25 the police in Sokolac.
1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at the e-court
2 system, document P3393. It's a dispatch dated the 10th of March, 1997
3 It concerned a proposal for the ranks of authorised officials in the
4 forensic -- in the crime police in Sarajevo, in the CJB.
5 If we have a look at the last paragraph in the document, a
6 suggestion is made that Ljubisa Borovcanin be granted the rank of major,
7 a chief of the section for economy crime prevention. Is that the --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, an inspector for
9 economic crime.
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Is that the Borovcanin from
11 Sokolac, the one I mentioned?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the man I mentioned.
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is that the same man as this person here in the courtroom, or are
15 these individuals different individuals?
16 A. They are different individuals, absolutely.
17 Q. A few more questions for the end. Tell me, when did the
18 Borovcanin Defence team contact you?
19 A. In the summer of this year. That was the first time.
20 Q. Did you then have other contact, and for how long, if so?
21 A. Yes, very briefly. In September, I think.
22 Q. Apart from these two occasions and excluding the time that we
23 have spent on preparation together here in The Hague, did you have any
24 other contact with the Borovcanin Defence team?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And just a few more questions before I conclude. Your testimony
2 shows that you obviously know Mr. Borovcanin. Since when have you known
4 A. I have known him when -- in the winter of 1993, 1994, he was
5 designated as the deputy brigade commander.
6 Q. Tell me, what is your opinion of Mr. Borovcanin?
7 A. I think he is a man who is exceptionally talented, well educated,
8 dignified, a man without vices.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 A. Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I notice Mr. Borovcanin would like to communicate
12 with you or he doesn't agree with the witness or is there ...
13 MR. LAZAREVIC: With Your Honour's permission.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to communicate with your lawyer? Yeah,
15 he does.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Sir, I must
17 apologise for this slip of the tongue. I mentioned his name.
18 Q. Can you tell me whether you know whether Mr. Borovcanin in the
19 course of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was wounded at some point in
20 time? If so, what do you remember about the event?
21 A. I was on the battlefield with him when he was seriously wounded.
22 I went to visit him in hospital in Banja Luka. He was very seriously
23 wounded, and so I was surprised that three or four months later he had
24 managed to recover and return to carry out his task.
25 Q. Can you tell me when this happened, approximately?
1 A. I think it was in December -- no, November, towards the end of
2 November or between October and November. The first time I visited him
3 in the hospital in Banja Luka was on the 21st of November, 1994.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to have a look
5 at all the documents. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to put them
6 into the e-court system. The first one is a letter of release dated the
7 9th of November, 1994. Could we have it on the ELMO, please? It's a
8 letter of discharge from the hospital. [In English] I apologise, also,
9 to my colleagues from the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber. I was not
10 sure whether I would use these documents.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Feel free to have a look at it, have a look at
12 the entire document, which is by your side. I think it's quite clear.
13 We can see that Mr. Borovcanin was wounded as a result of an explosion -
14 that's what it says here - "and his stomach was wounded and his lower
15 limbs. This was the result of firearms (mine)." Do you remember this?
16 Do you remember these events in the wounding of Mr. Borovcanin? Is this
17 what you were mentioning?
18 A. Yes, that's what I've been talking about. I was in the field. I
19 remember that period. I remember that event, and this letter confirms
20 the fact that he was taken to the closest hospital, and then he was
21 transferred to another hospital in Banja Luka.
22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] And finally one more document I
23 would like to have a look at. Could we place it on the ELMO.
24 We seem to have a minor technical problem with this.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest in order not to lose time that we have a
1 look at it, and Mr. Thayer has a look at it, and then any of your
2 colleagues who wish to have a look at it, very quickly, and then give it
3 to the witness.
4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I am illiterate in the language, so
5 I'll just accept my friend's representation of what it is.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Does anyone wish to have a look at it
7 from the Defence teams? Okay. We can proceed. Eva, give it to the
8 witness, please, and we will proceed.
9 You're going to tender this document in any case, right?
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, yes, Your Honour.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you've now had the opportunity of having a
12 look at this document. It's a confirmation dated the 8th of August,
13 2000, from the ministry of veterans of the war in Republika Srpska. Can
14 you tell us what level of disability was established for Mr. Borovcanin?
15 A. Luckily, I don't have such a confirmation, but Mr. Borovcanin,
16 according to this document, is a war invalid of the sixth level or
18 Q. And we have a percentage here?
19 A. 60 per cent of permanent disability, is what it says.
20 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions for you.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No questions for the witness. Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Nikolic.
25 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau. Thank you, Madam Nikolic.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no question, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam. Mr. Josse.
7 MR. JOSSE: One question, please.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Josse:
9 Q. Witness, I just want to ask you this. You described yesterday
10 how in late July 1992 after leaving Jahorina you joined a unit that was
11 operating at a checkpoint in the direction of Sekovici, and you went on
12 to say that that unit had been tasked with neutralizing the Yellow Wasps.
13 Who was the leader of that unit, the unit that you joined?
14 A. The members of my unit that I mentioned, and I said that towards
15 the end of July and perhaps on the 1st of August, 1992, I said I met them
16 at the checkpoint of the Zvornik-to-Sekovici road. Well, at that time,
17 this unit was led by our first command of the special unit, Mr. Milenko
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse. Mr. Sarapa.
21 MR. SARAPA: No questions, thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you and
24 to Your Honours. Good afternoon, everyone.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
1 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. My name is Nelson Thayer. I will be asking you just a couple of
4 questions on behalf of the Prosecution this afternoon. You testified
5 yesterday that a police forces staff was set up in February or March of
6 1995 at Jahorina. Do you recall that, sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you told us that the reason for setting up that police forces
9 command staff there was to obtain operative information but also to
10 prepare for an expected spring offensive by the Muslims; is that correct?
11 A. It's not correct in that we didn't have to obtain any
12 information. We already had the information on the basis of which such a
13 staff was established. But given that way events unfolded, we could see
14 that everything had been correctly predicted and that the information
15 was, in fact, correct.
16 Q. Okay. Now, that anticipated spring offensive, in fact, occurred,
17 did it not, as an attempt to break the siege of Sarajevo?
18 A. I don't know the motives of the enemy side, but it is true that
19 the offensive gradually became more intense throughout that year, 1995.
20 Q. And you told us today about a new police forces staff that was
21 established in Pale sometime later, perhaps in May or June of 1995?
22 A. That's true. And this was just an innovation and raising the
23 level and paying more attention to certain things because the person who
24 was appointed the commander of the staff was the assistant minister or
25 the deputy minister, whatever Mr. Kovac was at that time.
1 Q. Now, you were shown a number of documents yesterday that were
2 signed by Dusko Jevic as the commander of the staff of the police forces
3 Jahorina-Trnovo. Those documents were dated April of 1995. Do you
4 recall those documents, sir?
5 A. I remember, yes.
6 Q. So just the one thing that I wanted to clarify from what you said
7 today was, was that police forces staff co-existing with the staff in
8 Pale once the Pale police forces staff was established?
9 A. No. I just said that the situation gained a more serious
10 dimension. The staff on Jahorina ceased to exist, and its tasks and
11 duties were taken over by the staff that was housed in the Tron facility,
12 in that catering facility.
13 Q. In the Tron facility?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did you remain in Jahorina, or did you transfer to Pale or
16 travel between the two? Can you just share that with us?
17 A. I believe that it was obvious from my previous testimony. The
18 staff was given a camp for training, and then this became the training
19 centre. So we never moved from Pale. Our dealings with the staff in
20 Tron were of a purely technical nature.
21 Q. Okay. So I just wanted to clarify. You remained at the training
22 camp in Jahorina and travelled to Pale from time to time when you had
23 something administrative or technical that brought you there; is that
24 fair to say?
25 A. Yes. When we needed assistance, when we needed logistics
1 support, and when we needed to submit our reports.
2 Q. Now, you no doubt were aware of the military activities that were
3 underway during this period of time on the Sarajevo front given your
4 proximity to it and the fact, perhaps, that you actually lived there for
5 some time. Am I right?
6 A. You're right. I was not an eyewitness of all these events, but I
7 was aware of them.
8 Q. And as I think you've alluded to, the offensive intensified as
9 did the Serb forces' response to it and activities with respect to it; in
10 other words, the fighting became fierce in June and early July. Would
11 you agree?
12 A. Yes, I would. I believe that the Muslims were waiting for just
13 one more thing, and that was support by the NATO airforce.
14 Q. And there were MUP forces engaged in Srbinje, at the Lucevik
15 facility, Mount Trebevic
16 A. I am not aware of this facility, what is the Lucevik facility?
17 Q. The Lucevik facility, sir? If you're not familiar with it, I'll
18 move on.
19 A. Well, this is something in the territory of Trnovo
20 Q. Right, sir. And that's what I'm really talking about is there
21 was fierce fighting during this period of time, June, early July, in the
22 Trnovo battlefield. Can we agree on that?
23 A. Yes, I agree, but the only thing I know about that is that it was
24 really bad. It was terrible.
25 Q. And do you recall, sir, that Ljubomir Borovcanin was commanding
1 those MUP forces on the Trnovo front? General Borovcanin here today,
2 just so the record is clear.
3 A. I don't remember, but I believe that you're right. Mount
4 Jahorina is on the way from Pale to Trnovo. Jahorina was on that route,
5 so I believe you're right.
6 Q. Now, I just want to ask you about one other document.
7 MR. THAYER: If we could have 4D251 e-court, very quickly,
8 please. And if we could scroll down on the B/C/S just a little bit.
9 Perfect. Thank you.
10 Q. Sir, you were asked a number of questions yesterday about the
11 police officers' training course and the curriculum and who the
12 instructors were. Let me just ask you first, I think you told us that
13 policing theory would have been taught by MUP instructors, professors or
14 professional instructors that were not members of the special police
15 brigade; is that correct?
16 A. I said that the instructors were professors from the school of
17 the interior affairs, that is, lecturers; and instructors were from the
18 police brigade, from the special police brigade. This is just an
19 accident. Dragomir Zivkovic was a deputy and a commander of a detachment
20 in Trebinje, and it seems that most of his policemen from his unit
21 attended the course. That's why he was their most senior officer while
22 they were on the training course.
23 Q. Okay, sir. I didn't mean to distract you with the document just
24 yet. I was just asking you a general question. So I am not interested
25 in that individual that you were just asking about. But following up on
1 what you've just told us, is it fair to say that in terms of the sort of
2 hands-on instruction, shall we say, the diving, martial arts,
3 marksmanship, that type of instruction would be been conducted by members
4 of the special police brigade during the police training course that you
5 talked about?
6 A. Yes, those were mostly pre-war members of special police
7 brigades. They were masters in martial arts, and while they were in
8 their units they were trained for very specialist tasks, such as diving,
9 mountaineering and other such tasks. The school of internal affairs did
10 not have such professionals on their staff.
11 Q. Now, if we look at this document, sir, just for my last question.
12 If you see in the second paragraph in your language where it refers to
13 the current agreement reached with the special police brigade deputy
14 commander. Do you see that paragraph, sir? And it refers to three
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were asked by my friend yesterday about the first and third
18 names, and I think you identified them as not being members of the
19 special police brigade. I want to ask you about the person in the middle
20 that's listed here, Ljuban Poprzen. Who was he, sir?
21 A. A colleague of mine, a pre-war special. Before the war, he was a
22 member of a special police unit.
23 Q. And he, in fact, became an instructor at Jahorina, did he not,
25 A. He became an instructor even before Jahorina was established.
1 From 1982 to 1992, he underwent continuous training courses in the
2 special unit of the former republican Ministry of the Interior in
4 that enabled him to perform these tasks.
5 Q. And in 1995, he was a special police brigade instructor, correct,
7 A. Yes. And a very serious one.
8 Q. Sir, I thank you. I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there redirect, Mr. Lazarevic?
10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, maybe it will be convenient to take
11 a break now, and I will discuss whether I have some questions for
12 re-examination of the witness.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will have a 25-minute break now.
15 Thank you.
16 --- Recess taken at 5.10 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 5.41 p.m.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. [French on English channel]
19 One moment because we have...
20 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies, mistake by the interpreters. Wrong
21 microphone. Apologies.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That's okay. Now you can proceed,
23 Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I just wanted to alert you all to
25 a potential --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Is the witness going to return to the courtroom or
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honour. I don't think there is any need
4 from our side because there will be no redirect.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I am talking -- I'm referring to the
6 curtains, actually.
7 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is just a potential scheduling -- well,
9 problem. As you know, Mr. Dunjic, the expert, it looks like he will be
10 testifying tomorrow if -- we think. And you may recall that Chris
11 Mitchell handled him the last time he was here, and Chris has just
12 earlier in the day gone home with what looks like a pretty bad flu, and
13 he was the one lawyer that was prepared and learned the report, had the
14 documents ready in what was a technical situation. So we're not sure
15 he's going to be back tomorrow to be -- and it doesn't really look like
16 it, frankly. We wanted him to get better. So it's likely that any
17 cross-examination would have gone over the long holiday, but it would be
18 regrettable if that had to happen. But I just wanted to alert you to
20 Mr. Nicholls is now on the Karadzic team. He is -- unless we
21 bring him in for a special appearance, he's just -- to let you know, he
22 is on another team, now.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's start from here. You don't need this
1 witness any further, Mr. Lazarevic?
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. We don't need him either, no?
4 So we release the witness. Madam Usher can thank him on our behalf and
5 wish him a safe journey.
6 The matter raised by Mr. McCloskey. So Dunjic is not the first
7 witness we have in line. We have another one preceding him,
8 Mr. Markovic. How long do you expect your examination-in-chief of
9 Mr. Markovic to last? I know that you have given a forecast, but --
10 MR. GOSNELL: Our estimate of 45 minutes stands.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: 45 minutes. And I don't estimate there will be any
12 particular cross-examination from the other Defence teams. From the
13 Prosecution side? Yes, Mr. Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, Mr. Vanderpuye says probably at the most an
15 hour and a half and, you know, given -- it may not even be that much.
16 But it's hard to say until we hear the direct, of course.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Bourgon.
18 MR. BOURGON: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon.
20 MR. BOURGON: We estimated on behalf of Drago Nikolic 30 minutes,
21 and I will use the 30 minutes, Mr. President, and actually, I wanted to
22 advise the Trial Chamber that maybe I will go a bit over those 30
23 minutes. Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So that's -- thank you so much,
25 Mr. Bourgon. So that's 45 plus 30, an hour and 15 minutes, and an hour
1 and 15 minutes, roughly another hour, hour and a half, Prosecution. That
2 will take about three hours maximum, as I imagine, because I haven't
3 heard anyone else showing an interest in cross-examining the next
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no other witnesses available for...
7 MR. GOSNELL: No, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: No. And Mr. Zivanovic, you haven't air-lifted an
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This morning, I contacted witness and victims
11 unit, and they need the five working days to provide his visas. So he
12 cannot come to The Hague
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. This cross-examination of Dunjic, what
14 were your anticipations time-wise?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: An hour and a half is our estimate, and you know,
16 there's documents and other material that I have seen, that Mr. Mitchell
17 was showing me. And I also forgot to mention, I can't be here until
18 about, well, 1.30 tomorrow because I'm at my son's graduation, so I can't
19 be here in the morning either. So I would say about an hour, hour and a
20 half is our estimate.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And how much time do you require for leading?
22 MR. GOSNELL: We have 45 minutes estimated, but I must say --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: With Dunjic.
24 MR. GOSNELL: -- with Professor Dunjic, but we may go slightly
25 over, not greatly over but slightly over.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So putting it all together, it seems that there is
2 no chance that we come to the cross-examination of Dunjic tomorrow in any
3 case. It also seems that at most we may have half an hour of
4 testimony -- half an hour of testimony.
5 Yes, Mr. Gosnell.
6 MR. GOSNELL: I'm sorry, Mr. President, for interrupting. We
7 don't, of course, oppose the request by the Prosecution for an
8 adjournment until Tuesday or until such time as Mr. Mitchell is
9 available. It would be our fervent request and hope that we could
10 present our examination-in-chief immediately prior to the beginning of
11 the cross-examination. And as I say, it's not a particularly long
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We've given advance notice of the
14 problem. I think much depends on how long we are going to take -- how
15 much time we are going to take with the next witness, first. I think
16 we'll give you a decision tomorrow because if we are left with 15, 20
17 minutes, it's one thing. If we are left with an hour or so, it's
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll give Mr. Mitchell a chance to
21 recover. So we'll finish with this witness first, and then unless things
22 have changed and Mr. Mitchell is available tomorrow, we will adjourn
23 after that.
24 But if he is fit to come and resume his work, then, of course, we
25 will continue and we will proceed with Dunjic tomorrow. Otherwise, we
1 adjourn until Tuesday because Monday, as you will recall, we have to give
2 the courtroom to the Krajisnik Appeals Chamber.
3 All right. Documents, Mr. Lazarevic.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, at this point I would kindly ask to
5 deal with documents once this next witness finishes because I use a
6 couple of documents which I only had hard copies. We don't have numbers
7 for these documents.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right --
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- if it's convenient. I already spoke to my
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And Mr. Josse didn't make any use of any
12 documents. Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: We had no documents, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You had no documents either. All right. So that
15 matter is deferred until later.
16 The next witness, please. Mr. Markovic.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good evening, Mr. Markovic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal. You have been
21 summoned as an expert witness by the Borovcanin Defence team. Before you
22 start giving evidence, our rules require that you make a solemn
23 declaration to the effect that in the course of your testimony you will
24 be speaking the truth. Madam Usher is going to give you the text of this
25 declaration. Please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn
1 commitment with us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: JOVO MARKOVIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
7 Mr. Gosnell will be putting some questions to you in relation to
8 the report that you prepared, and then he will be followed by others on
10 Mr. Gosnell.
11 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
12 Examination by Mr. Gosnell:
13 Q. Good evening, Mr. Markovic. As I hope you recall, my name is
14 Chris Gosnell, and I will be asking you some questions on behalf of
15 Mr. Borovcanin. Would you please state your full name and date of birth
16 for the record, please?
17 A. Jovo Markovic. I was born on the 30th of October, 1974.
18 Q. Now, sir, your report is now before the Chamber, so we won't be
19 going through it chapter and verse. I would like to ask you a few
20 questions to clarify and highlight some aspects of the report.
21 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please have Exhibit 4D617 on e-court,
23 Q. Sir, this is your curriculum vitae, and I would just like to ask
24 you a few questions about your curriculum vitae. Could you tell us what
25 period of time you attended the military academy in Belgrade?
1 A. Yes. I was at the academy from 1993 until 1997, which is when I
3 Q. Did you develop any specialisation while you were studying at the
4 military academy?
5 A. Yes, naturally. In the course of my education at the military
6 academy, I was educated in the centre for communications or information
7 and electronic surveillance. The course programme had to do with that of
8 an electro technician.
9 Q. Now, sir, I know you speak English quite well, and so you
10 understand my question immediately and can respond right away. I would
11 simply ask you to observe a slight pause after the end of my question so
12 that the translators can finish translating. Thank you.
13 Did you have occasion during those studies to work with portable
14 radio devices?
15 A. Yes, that was one of the things that we studied at the military
17 Q. And what did you do after graduating from the military academy?
18 A. After graduating, I joined the Republika Srpska army in 1997. I
19 was on active duty then.
20 Q. And how long did you remain with the Republika Srpska army?
21 A. As a member of the Republika Srpska army, well, I remained there
22 until 2007, which is when I moved from the army of Republika Srpska to
23 the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 Q. I'm sorry. Could you simply repeat the last part of your answer?
25 Moved from the army of Republika Srpska to what institution?
1 A. As is well known, in 2'05, 2'06, there is a transition. The law
2 in Bosnia and Herzegovina was changed, and the army of Republika Srpska
3 became an integral part of the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina
4 which were established in the 16th January, 2006. And all members of the
5 Republika Srpska army at that time automatically became members of the
6 armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 Q. All right. Thank you for that clarification.
8 MR. GOSNELL: Can we look at page 2 of this document, please.
9 Q. Now, sir, we see here that you rose up through the ranks of the
10 VRS. Could you describe the various promotions and positions you held in
11 the VRS?
12 A. Yes. After I was received into the active duty service of the
13 Republika Srpska army, I was made commander of the signalling company in
14 the 108th Infantry Brigade. I spent about two years in that position. I
15 was made the chief of communications in that same brigade.
16 In the meantime, I finished cryptographic school at the military
17 academy. It was in the school centre for communications, information,
18 technology, and electronics surveillance. I held that post for two
19 years, after which I became commander of an independent communications
20 platoon. It was directly subordinated to the General Staff of the army
21 of Republika Srpska.
22 While performing my duties as a commander of the communications
23 company, the company I was in command of was responsible for establishing
24 communications, of maintaining communications, for the needs of the army
25 of Republika Srpska. The communications systems used were stationary. I
1 should emphasize this fact. They weren't mobile. And also within my
2 unit, there was cryptographic station working for the needs of the
3 Republika Srpska army General Staff.
4 Q. All right. Sir, let me ask you. You say that you use stationary
5 communications devices. Did you have occasion also to use portable
6 communications devices, or did you use only stationary communication
8 A. My unit used stationary devices, centrals and relay devices; but
9 when performing their regular daily activities we used mobile radio units
10 that used frequencies of 140 to 180 megahertz, wavelengths of up to 2
12 Q. All right. And what position did you assume after being the
13 commander of the communications platoon that you've just described?
14 A. After working as the company commander, I started working in the
15 Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska. I worked there in the
16 verifications centre of the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.
17 This centre controlled weapons. When I say "controlled weapons," I am
18 referring to the military part of the Dayton Agreement, Article 2 and 4.
19 Article 2 has to do with establishing trust within the B&H; it's similar
20 to the Birac document from 1994 and 1999; and Article 4 had to do with
21 controlling weapons exclusively, weapons referred to in the Dayton
22 Agreement. It's very similar to the agreement on conventional forces in
24 Q. Now, in that capacity, did you have any experience or use
25 portable communication devices?
1 A. Yes, we also used mobile radio units there of minor capacity,
2 since the need wasn't that great. But when controlling weapons, we used
3 mobile radios so that the members of this mission could communicate with
4 each other.
5 Q. And in the course of those responsibilities, did you have
6 occasion to come in contact with the radio communication devices that had
7 been in use over the previous, let's say, 20 years?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, sir, your -- well, perhaps you could elaborate and tell us
10 what kind of contact you had or what you learned about those radio
11 communications devices?
12 A. I'll go back a bit when I was the commander of the platoon and
13 the chief of communications in the 108th Infantry Brigade. In 1997 and
14 1998, we worked on decommissioning weapons, old weapons, damaged weapons,
15 and radio devices, weapons, too, but radio devices. I was responsible
16 exclusively for radio devices that were used in the war and that were no
17 longer of use -- or could no longer be used. There were huge quantities
18 of radio devices that were no longer used because they couldn't be used
19 or they were defective. We received radio devices from all sides, from
20 officers, soldiers who are either still members of the Republika Srpska
21 army or were former members of that army. They would bring in such radio
22 devices in order to get rid of them in a certain sense; and on such
23 occasions, I had contact with various kinds of devices, radio devices
24 that had the same frequencies or they used the same frequencies. They
25 were wavelengths of 2 metres, of 0.7 metres that these devices used. And
1 when I came in to see such devices, I noticed that the faults consisted
2 of poor batteries that could practically not be used. Often, mistakes
3 were made when using such devices. The antennas had been exchanged, for
5 Q. I'm sorry. Sorry for interjecting. Will you kindly just slow
6 down a little bit for the interpreters and for the record.
7 A. I'll repeat some of what I said. I came to see various radio
8 devices. I also came to see devices that used wavelengths of 2 metres
9 and devices that used wavelengths of 0.7 metres. As I have already said,
10 such devices often had batteries that were very weak or that couldn't be
11 used anymore, rechargeable batteries, for example.
12 Q. Thank you. I see from your CV that you were also a member of a
13 United Nations mission. Can you tell us when that was?
14 A. Yes. I was a member of the peace mission of the UN in Ethiopia
15 and Eritrea
16 Q. And did you have occasion while working for that mission to use
17 portable communication devices?
18 A. Yes, naturally. This was part of my daily work over there
19 because when performing tasks of any kind in the field, it was necessary
20 to have a mobile radio unit. This was necessary for each member. If one
21 was using a vehicle, it was necessary to have at least one portable radio
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, before this report that you've prepared for
24 us and for the Chamber, had you previously prepared audibility reports
25 concerning portable communication devices, and if so, in what context?
1 A. Yes, naturally. It was also part of my education at the military
2 academy. Naturally, after the military academy, after I had graduated
3 when serving in the RS army, whenever one was to establish
4 communications -- well, first, you would check to see that it was
5 possible to establish communications by using a radio device. One would
6 use a map for such purposes. It all depended on the configuration on the
8 When we confirmed that it was possible to establish
9 communications by referring to the map, in such cases we would then
10 actually check to see whether this was possible by going into the field.
11 Q. Thank you for that information. Now, how was it that you came to
12 write this report? Were you contacted by the Defence?
13 A. Yes. The Ministry of the Interior was contacted by the Defence
14 team; and afterwards, on behalf of the Ministry of Defence [as
15 interpreted] I drafted this report that you have here today.
16 Q. Sir, I understand that the transcript says -- you first referred
17 to the Ministry of the Interior, but then there is a reference to the
18 Ministry of Defence. Is that correct?
19 A. No. I said that the Ministry of the Interior was contacted by
20 the Defence team. Mr. Sasa was the specific person, and then I started
21 drafting the report.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Let's now move to your report itself. What
23 radio devices did you test for this report?
24 A. I used two types of devices in both cases, Motorola devices. The
25 first device uses a 2-metre wavelength, and the second one a wavelength
1 of 0.7 metres.
2 Q. All right. And what led you to test these two devices?
3 A. Well, two things. Firstly, on the basis of the photograph that I
4 saw, I recognized that it was a portable radio device on the base of the
5 antenna on the device. It was a radio device that used a wavelength of
6 0.7 metres. Because those antennas are quite specific, it's difficult to
7 mistake those antennas for other types of antennas. And the second thing
8 is that I also used a device, a radio device, that used a wavelength of 2
9 metres because these are the wavelengths that were used in the former
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina, naturally.
12 Q. All right. And to your knowledge, were there any other handheld
13 radio devices that were in use in the former Yugoslavia in 1995 other
14 than the two that you've just identified?
15 A. No, not as far as I know.
16 Q. Now, sir, is audibility between two radio devices determined by
17 the specifications of the transmitter or the receiver?
18 A. On the whole, by the transmitter because the receiver has
19 standard characteristics.
20 Q. All right. So how does identifying the receiving device -
21 assuming that that's the case - how does that assist you in understanding
22 the nature of the transmitting device?
23 A. Well, for the receiver to receive a signal from a transmitting
24 device, the characteristics should be identical. If they're not and if
25 they don't use the same wavelengths, then reception is impossible.
1 Q. And, sir, can you tell us what the -- well, you've used the word
2 "wavelengths" or it's been translated as "wavelengths." Can you tell us
3 what the frequency of the two devices -- the frequency range of the two
4 devices that you tested is?
5 A. The frequency for the wavelength of 2 metres - and this naturally
6 depends on the producer - is between 140 and 180 megahertz. So that is
7 the range of frequencies. When it comes to wavelengths of 0.7 metres -
8 and again, this all depends on the make of the device in question - the
9 frequency is between 400 and 460 megahertz.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you conduct a field test using these two devices?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please have 4D607 on e-court, please.
13 Page 15 of the -- of both versions. Can we zoom in just a little bit
14 more, please.
15 Q. Now, sir, this concerns according to the title the radio device
16 operating at the 0.7-metres wavelength. That is the Motorola OP 30. I
17 wonder if you can just tell us your conclusion. Now, based on your field
18 testing, can you please tell us the audibility result as between point 6,
19 which you've identified as a place called Hrncici, and point 1, which is
20 identified as Sandici meadow?
21 A. The test that was carried out in the field between point 1 -
22 which is at Sandici meadow; the geographic coordinates were given in the
23 report - and point 6, the village of Hrncici
24 point 1 -- well, when we carried out this test, we checked the
25 communication system by setting up a radio device with my colleague at
1 point 1, and I drove towards point number 6 in this particular case, and
2 we checked the communications system every 20 to 30 seconds.
3 JUDGE KWON: Where is point 6, Mr. Gosnell or Mr. Markovic? Can
4 you follow the --
5 MR. GOSNELL: Perhaps we could zoom in a little more tightly on
6 the document, and then it should become clear. I think we can go even
8 Q. So, sir, perhaps you could explain. What is the significance --
9 or perhaps I said be more accurate and ask you, how is it that you
10 determined point 6? What is the significance of point 6 on annex 9?
11 A. Point 6 is a geographic location, and at this point all
12 communications in the vehicle -- in a vehicle come to an end. I stopped
13 at point 6 and tried to establish the same communications outside of the
14 vehicle, and that is where I determined that it was possible to establish
15 communication. The value was 2 through 1 for that kind of communication.
16 And this is a standard assessment. 2 through 1, 2/1, means that
17 audibility on a scale of 1 to 5 was 2, but it was practically
18 incomprehensible. On a scale of 1 to 5, comprehension was level 1.
19 Practically incomprehensible. I'd just like to emphasize that in the
20 vehicle itself it was impossible to establish communications.
21 Q. All right. And staying with this annex 9, could you please tell
22 us what this audibility result was between that same spot, point 6, and
23 point 2, which is the Kravica warehouse?
24 A. Between point 2 and point 6, it was impossible to establish
25 communications, both in and out of the vehicle.
1 Q. Could you hear anything at all based on a test between those two
3 A. Absolutely nothing.
4 Q. And how did you actually do that test?
5 A. The test was performed in the same way as the test between points
6 1 and 6.
7 Q. And in respect of these two results or these two references
8 points, between point 6 and point 1 and point 6 and point 2, did you
9 reach the same result in respect of the other device as well?
10 A. Yes. The testing was performed with both radio sets, and the
11 results that I obtained were absolutely the same.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. Looking at this map, we see something that looks
13 like pixels on the map. Could you explain what that represents?
14 A. Looking at the map, the areas depicted by colour red are the
15 areas where it is absolutely possible to establish communication. The
16 areas in blue are the areas where it is only theoretically possible to
17 establish communication. However, the communication is poor or extremely
18 poor. Grey areas are areas where it is absolutely impossible to
19 establish any sort of communication with the devices that I had at my
21 Q. And, sir, how did you generate this pixilated representation on
22 the map?
23 A. We received this map, or actually, we generated this map by using
24 a programme called HerTZ Mapper that we normally use in the Ministry of
25 the Interior in the crime prevention police administration, and this
1 programme is used to establish the connectivity of radio communications.
2 The data were obtained in the following way: We entered initial data in
3 the already-existing digital maps, and the data that we used were as
4 follows: Geographic coordinates from the points already represented, and
5 these we obtained using the Garmin GPS
6 Q. Well, perhaps I could just cut to the key question, which is,
7 does this programme incorporate or include topographical data?
8 A. This programme does not provide the exact topographical data. It
9 only represents the most characteristics points, which means that it
10 doesn't correspond totally to topographic maps, which provide a lot more
12 Q. All right. And how would you compare the accuracy of the
13 pixilated representation of audibility and a field test testing
15 A. In this case, as depicted on this map, between points 1 and 6,
16 the results coincide within the vehicle, which means that there is no
17 connectivity, whereas outside of the vehicle some sort of communication
18 could be established, but the comprehensibility of that communication was
19 low or none.
20 And between points 2 and 6, as shown on the map, there was no
21 connectivity either in or outside of the vehicle.
22 Q. And leaving aside for the moment this particular map, could you
23 tell us in general terms whether there were any drawbacks related to the
24 HerTZ Mapper audibility test and a field audibility test?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could all the microphones not be in use please
1 be switched off. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. The difference
3 between these two tests depends on some other factors; i.e., there are
4 some other factors that have an impact on the physical verification of
5 communication. What we see on the map are the ideal conditions, which
6 means that the radio device works at its maximum strength of 5 watts
7 under the ideal weather conditions and that it is outside of the vehicle.
8 Whilst -- when we were checking communications on -- in the field, the
9 influence of all the aforementioned factors was present: Weather
10 conditions; the strength of the device, i.e., the frequency that it was
11 working on; the battery, whether it was fully charged or just
12 half-charged; the shelf life of the battery - this is what I mean when I
13 say the battery; and also, one of major influencing factors is whether an
14 attempt to establish communication is made in the vehicle or outside of
16 All these factors have an impact on the attempt to establish
17 communication. And to be even more precise on that, when we used the
18 programme, we used the ideal conditions, both weather conditions and the
19 condition of the device. While we were testing communication in the
20 field, all the negative factors were present.
21 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please have annex 7 on e-court, please.
22 It's two pages previous before annex 9, and please zoom in tightly.
23 Q. Now, sir, are the points 1, 2, and 6 the same coordinates as
24 appeared on the previous map?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And does this map in any way illustrate what you've just
2 described about the relationship between the two types of testing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And, sir, what were the weather conditions like when you
5 conducted your field test on the 17th of September, 2008?
6 A. On that day, it was partly cloudy.
7 Q. And on a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the atmospheric
8 conditions in terms of relative to the ideal conditions for transmission?
9 A. According to my free estimate, I would say somewhere between 8
10 and 9.
11 MR. GOSNELL: All right. Can we go to page 2 of the report,
12 please, in both English and B/C/S.
13 Q. Now, at the bottom of the page, you say: "It has also been
14 established that at the time in the said area there were no active
15 amplifying inter-stations that could amplify the range of the radio
16 connection. Rather, the radio connection was used exclusively in simplex
18 Can you please share with us how you know that or how you reached
19 that conclusion?
20 A. Before embarking on the connection testing in the locations that
21 were given, we had visited the police station in Bratunac. The two of us
22 were received by the deputy commander of the police station, and we put
23 the same question to him, namely, whether there were any amplifying
24 inter-stations and whether there were any at the moment when we were
25 asking on the 17th of September, 2008. In other words, whether there had
1 been before and whether there were at that moment.
2 He called a member of the police staff who was a signals man at
3 the time. He told us that in the territory covered by the Bratunac
4 police station and in the territory of Bratunac
5 never existed any amplifying inter-stations. There were done during the
6 existence of the former Yugoslavia
7 were none at the time when we spoke to him.
8 Q. Sir, do you know Mr. Borovcanin?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you ever met him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And do you have any reason to be biased in his favour because of
13 his former association with the Ministry of the Interior?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Has anyone pressured you in relation to the results that are
16 expressed in your report?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All right. Sir, I just have one last question for you, and it
19 relates to page 1 of your report. Is there a correction that you wish to
20 make in relation to point 2?
21 A. Yes. There are corrections on the pages 1 and 3 that concern the
22 geographic coordinates on point 2. The first coordinate, it says here
23 "92, 8 seconds," and this is a typo. It should be "42, 8 seconds."
24 On page 3, I would like to make the same correction. Under item,
25 3, it should again read "42, 8 seconds."
1 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Your Honours. We have no further
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Zivanovic?
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No question for the witness, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nikolic?
6 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic? Or Mr. Bourgon, sorry.
8 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. President, I would
9 ask with the leave of the Court to begin the cross-examination tomorrow
10 morning. The reason being is I have a technical problem with a map that
11 I prepared. I have an extract, and looking at it now, it doesn't look
12 very good, and I need to seek the assistance of the registrar. I could
13 be ready in the morning first thing.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. We appreciate
15 you have a problem. We will start with your cross-examination tomorrow.
16 Thank you.
17 We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.50 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of
20 October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.