Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28282

 1                           Monday, 17 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Good morning,

 7     everybody.  Could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Merci.  All the accused are here.  Prosecution

11     today is just Mr. McCloskey on his own.  From the Defence teams, I notice

12     the absence of Mr. Bourgon and Mr. Haynes and Mr. Lazarevic.  Yes.

13             Good morning, Mr. Obradovic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  We'll continue with your testimony today.

16     I'm doubtful whether we will finish or not, but anyway we are approaching

17     the end of your testimony.

18             Yes.  Mr. Petrusic, I can't see you.  Please go ahead.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

20                           WITNESS:  LJUBO OBRADOVIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

22                           Examination by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued]

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, General, sir.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   Before I continue, I would like to make a correction and to go

Page 28283

 1     back to 28 -- 279 page in the transcript.  There is a mistake there which

 2     obviously is the consequence of our overlapping.  I suppose my questions

 3     were delivered fast and your answer even faster, so I would kindly ask

 4     you to bear that in mind in the future.  On page 28279 of the transcript,

 5     my question was ordered as follows:

 6             "Who in the administration supplied you with the elements that

 7     would allow you to issue your orders?"

 8             I am absolutely certain, and I checked my notes, that I did not

 9     say that.  My question was rather as follows, and I am repeating it and

10     rephrasing it.  Who was it in the administration for operations and

11     training who supplied you with the elements to draft your orders?

12        A.   We received elements for the orders from our order issuer, the

13     commander.

14        Q.   In case the commander was absent, who did you receive the

15     elements from?

16        A.   From the person who the commander authorised to stand in for him

17     in his absence.

18        Q.   Could you name the persons who stood in for the commander in his

19     absence?

20        A.   It would be the commander's assistants by and large.

21        Q.   General, does this also apply to the Chief of Staff?

22        A.   The Chief of Staff is also the deputy of the commander of the

23     Main Staff, and this primarily applies to him.  But he -- if he was also

24     absent, then it would be a person authorised by the commander from the

25     circle of his assistants by and large.

Page 28284

 1        Q.   So if such a -- an order draft was given, what would the

 2     commander or the authorised person do?

 3        A.   Such a -- an order that was drafted would be read by the

 4     commander and signed by him, then the document would be stamped and then

 5     the document could be forwarded to the commands in the units to which the

 6     order referred.

 7        Q.   A document prepared in such a way, could the commander change

 8     anything in it?

 9        A.   Of course, of course.

10        Q.   Please, General, sir, could you please hold on just a little.

11        A.   Yes.  If in the meantime he changed his opinion or if any of the

12     wording in the order did not please him, he would change that and then

13     the act had to be redrafted.

14        Q.   You talked about your everyday duties as the chief of department

15     for operations, could you also tell us what the role of the chief of

16     administration was, the chief of administration for operations and

17     training in the part of the front line where the commander was also

18     deployed?

19        A.   He would not have any special role.  If he was with the

20     commander, the commander was the one who was in command in that area, who

21     coordinated all the actions and performed all other tasks and duties.

22        Q.   When it comes to the chief of administration for operations and

23     training, could he coordinate any work relative to that part of the front

24     line?

25        A.   In that part of the front line, coordination as a function of the

Page 28285

 1     command would be in the hands of the commander, because the commander was

 2     present.

 3        Q.   And if the chief of administration for operations and training is

 4     in his position in the staff, what was his role with -- in respect of

 5     that part of the front line?

 6        A.   The chief of administration follows the developments across the

 7     front line, and I suppose that his attention is less focused on the area

 8     where the command -- the commander can be found and more on other areas.

 9     If at any point in time, the commander showed interest in any of the

10     areas where he wasn't at the time, the chief of administration could then

11     provide him with quality and reliable information about those areas.

12     That's why he was more focused on such areas.

13        Q.   Do you have any knowledge about the role of the Main Staff in

14     combat operations which are planned and carried out by the corps?

15        A.   The Main Staff, i.e., the commander approves such operations, the

16     staff follows them, and reports the Supreme Commander, thereof, by way of

17     daily combat reports.

18        Q.   And these concrete daily combat reports for the Main Staff, who

19     submits those?

20        A.   The corps commands, the airforce, the anti-aircraft defence, and

21     the centre of military schools.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

23     D51015 [as interpreted].  5D1015 in the document number.

24        Q.   Could you please comment upon this document that you can see on

25     the screen?

Page 28286

 1        A.   This is a document issued by the Main Staff, and it was

 2     registered in the administration for training and operations.  It was

 3     drafted on the 17th of November, 1994.  It was sent to the Herzegovina

 4     Corps, Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the Drina Corps, and the 1st Guards

 5     Motorised Brigade.  These are units engaged in the Krivaja 94 operation.

 6     Their forces are engaged in that operation.  The body in charge of the

 7     planning of this operation was the Herzegovina Corps.

 8             By issuing this act, the commander says that the decision of the

 9     commander of the Herzegovina Corps for this operation has been approved

10     and that they can proceed immediately to carry out the operation that has

11     been approved.

12        Q.   Would that be a customary procedure to approve any decisions made

13     by the corps on the part of the Main Staff?

14        A.   This is one of the ways.  There are also other ways and other

15     methodologies.

16        Q.   We can see that this operation was approved by the commander.  In

17     the case of the commander's absence, who would be the one to approve this

18     operation?

19        A.   This operation could be approved by the Chief of Staff as deputy

20     commander by establishment.

21        Q.   And in the absence of the both of them, would there be anybody

22     else who could approve such an operation?

23        A.   I wouldn't know.  While I was in the Main Staff or in general

24     terms, I don't know if a decision on operations was approved by anybody

25     who was either not the Chief of Staff or the commander himself -- of the

Page 28287

 1     Main Staff.  I suppose that this is due to the fact that the principle of

 2     interchangeability has to be taken into account because operations are

 3     not something that you plan every day.

 4        Q.   General, sir, the administration for operations and training,

 5     does it have any role to play in the process to approve the commander's

 6     decision to carry out an -- a corps operation?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   If documents are submitted in time, then the administration for

10     operation and training will look at all the orders, the completeness of

11     all the orders, and the decision of the commander on the map.  And we

12     provide our possible objections to the quality of the documents that we

13     have perused.  And then we forward our comments to the Chief of Staff.

14     The Chief of Staff will then forward that document to the commander for

15     his approval or he will return the documents to the corps commander

16     for -- for their inputs.

17        Q.   When you mention the Chief of Staff and the commander in your

18     answer, are you referring to the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of the

19     army of Republika Srpska and the commander of the Main Staff of the army

20     Republika Srpska?

21        A.   Yes, precisely so, this is who I meant, because that would fall

22     turned scope of their powers.

23        Q.   General, sir, in performing your tasks and duties as the chief of

24     the -- the department for operations, you would be familiar with the term

25     "monitoring."  Are you familiar with the term, just please answer "yes"

Page 28288

 1     or "no"?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Would the chief of administration for operations and training of

 4     the Main Staff be involved in the monitoring of the operations carried

 5     out by the corps?

 6        A.   No.  The -- it is the commander in -- who commands the operation,

 7     i.e., the corps commander, who also monitors the corps's operations.  You

 8     can monitor on the ground but not from the headquarters of the Main

 9     Staff.  When in the Main Staff, we followed the developments based on the

10     reports that we used to receive in the course of every day.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

12     5D1215.

13        Q.   General, sir, take as much time as need to look at this document.

14     When you're finished, I'm going to ask some explanations from you.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Within the context of my previous questions regarding monitoring,

17     could you please comment upon this document?

18        A.   This is a document by the Main Staff of the army.  It was drafted

19     and filed by the administration for training operations on the 7th of

20     June 1995.  It was sent to the Herzegovina Corps to the forward command

21     post of the Herzegovina Corps in Kalinovik, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,

22     the forward command post of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in Trnovo, the

23     logistics sector of the Main Staff, and the 65th Motorised Protection

24     Regiment.  It is said in the preamble that:

25             "In order to assist the commands of the Herzegovina Corps and the

Page 28289

 1     Sarajevo Romanija Corps in stopping the enemy offensive in the general

 2     area of Kalinovik and Trnovo, the commander hereby issues the follows

 3     order.

 4             "In the course of -- 7th of June, dispatch from the Main Staff

 5     Colonel Nedjeljko Trkulja (team leader) and Colonel Mihajlo Durdevic to

 6     the forward command post 1 of the Herzegovina in Kalinovik."

 7             And the order also defines the time until which they are supposed

 8     to stay.

 9             Under bullet point 3, he also provides them with a task --

10        Q.   I apologise for interrupting you, General.  I would like to go

11     back to my previous question when we are talking about monitoring.  Does

12     this document speak about the order of the commander of the Main Staff.

13     He is -- dispatches the aforementioned officers to provide monitoring

14     over this part of the front line?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Allow me, General, sir, let's not overlap.  Could you please

17     answer along these lines?

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Is there a problem?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was a leading question, but the overlap kind

20     of un-did it.  So it's not worth it.  I'll just bide my time.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed.

22             MR. PETRUSIC:  [Interpretation] My intention was simply to avoid

23     the exercise of reading the entire document, but I believe that everybody

24     present will be able to draw their own conclusions from the document.

25        Q.   After your return on the 17th of July, after your return to the

Page 28290

 1     Main Staff, that is, what information did you receive about the

 2     evacuation; i.e., about the situation in the Zepa front line?

 3        A.   We received information from the daily combat reports, the

 4     regular ones.

 5        Q.   Did there come a time in the course of those days when you

 6     learned that the civilian population was being evacuated from Zepa?

 7        A.   I don't recall when this information arrived, but I think we did,

 8     yes.  I think we did have it.

 9        Q.   And did this information come through the reports from that part

10     of the battlefield?

11        A.   As I said previously, we got our information from the reports.

12        Q.   When you say that you, in the plural, had information, does that

13     imply that General Miletic also had that kind of information?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you know whether he had any special knowledge or information

16     which he did not convey to you and the others who were in the staff?

17        A.   Well, to have any kind of special knowledge, he would have had to

18     be there.  I don't know whether he did, but I think didn't.

19        Q.   Do you know whether General Miletic participated in any way in

20     the negotiations concerning evacuation connected with Zepa?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know who --

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to clarify that it doesn't -- it's not clear

24     whether he doesn't have information or he wasn't involved based on that

25     question.

Page 28291

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Do you have any information as to whether General Miletic

 4     participated in the negotiations concerning Zepa?

 5        A.   I don't have any information about that.

 6        Q.   Did you hear at a later stage that he participated in the

 7     negotiations concerning Zepa?

 8        A.   No.  I did not.

 9        Q.   Do you know who was in charge of the negotiations concerning

10     Zepa?

11        A.   I'm not sure, but if you are referring to the Zepa area it might

12     have been General Tolimir or the commander; the commander of the Main

13     Staff that is.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to speculation.  The witness should

15     know he shouldn't speculate, if that's what that is.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  We agree with Mr. --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.  Microphone,

18     Your Honour, please.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Petrusic.  So you either

20     rephrase your question or you move -- and he answered it in any case, or

21     you move.  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.  Whatever you want.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   General, do you have any information regardless of who the

24     participants were as to whether negotiations on the evacuation of Zepa

25     were held there?

Page 28292

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You said that General Miletic, to the best of your knowledge, did

 3     not participate in those negotiations.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, that's not what he said.  He said he

 6     didn't have information.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.  I think Mr. McCloskey is

 8     correct.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  So let's rephrase the question, please, even though

11     he answered "yes" to your previous question.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Microphone.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we have in e-court P186.  In

14     the Serbian and in the English version, could you please scroll down so

15     we can see the signature part of the document.  It's on page 2 in the

16     English version.  And now, please, take the English version back to page

17     1.

18        Q.   General, have you had a look at this document?

19        A.   Yes.  Could we see the heading as well, please?  Yes.

20        Q.   In the heading it says, "Main Staff," and this number here, 12 --

21     strictly confidential number 12/45.  Do you know whose number that is?

22        A.   That's the sector for security and intelligence.

23        Q.   We have some addressees listed here:  General Krstic, the command

24     of the 1st Podrinje Brigade, and Rajko Pusic, Captain Pecanac, the IBK,

25     and the 1st Krajina Corps.  So the Eastern Bosnia Corps and the 1st

Page 28293

 1     Krajina Corps.  Do you know why the 1st Krajina Corps is among the

 2     addressees?

 3        A.   The date is the 29th of July, 1995, and the commander and most of

 4     the assistants of the chief of the sector and administration were in the

 5     western part of the war theater; and this is being sent to the 1st

 6     Krajina Corps so that the commander of the Main Staff would be made aware

 7     of this because that's where he was.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could you please scroll down so

 9     that we could see the third paragraph.

10        Q.   General, please take a look at this paragraph.  Read it silently

11     to yourself, and then I will ask you to comment on it.

12        A.   This paragraph amounts to an order.  It says, "Continue combat

13     operations ..." and so on.  And it's addressed to the Drina Corps, to

14     General Krstic personally, and to the command post of the 1st Podrinje

15     Light Infantry Brigade; and the other security organs listed here

16     belonging to certain units.  The signatory who signs his name as the

17     chief is probably Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.

18        Q.   Very well.  We won't need this document anymore.

19        A.   He's authorised by the commander to issue orders.

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court document

21     5D1281.

22        Q.   Have you read it?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Before you reply, I would like to ask you whether you know where,

25     on the 12th of August, where General Miletic was on that day?

Page 28294

 1        A.   In the Main Staff, in Crna Rijeka.

 2        Q.   And the remainder of the command?

 3        A.   Most --

 4        Q.   And the Chief of Staff, do you know where they were?

 5        A.   Most of the command was in the western part of the front, in the

 6     area of the 1st Corps and the 2nd Krajina Corps.

 7        Q.   In relation to this document, can you tell us what this document

 8     is about?

 9        A.   On the 12th of August, at 11.47, someone delivered to someone a

10     copy of a conversation between General Miletic of the Main Staff of the

11     army of Republika Srpska and the Chief of Staff of UNPROFOR in Bosnia

12     Herzegovina, General Nicolai.  There was an interpreter mediating in

13     their conversation.  General Nicolai thanked General Miletic for the

14     medical evacuation which had been successfully completed.

15        Q.   Looking at this document, did General Miletic have authorisation

16     to issue decisions?

17        A.   Well, from the conversation one can see that General Miletic was

18     unable to reply to the request from the Chief of Staff of UNPROFOR.  He

19     says here:  "You know what, I'll consult my superiors, and I'll let you

20     know."  So he will receive a decision from his superior on the specific

21     issue that General Nicolai wants resolved.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

24        Q.   In the course of this morning, General, we spoke about monitoring

25     of one's own forces.  I'd like to ask you the following:  The term

Page 28295

 1     "monitoring," is it something that is part of military terminology in

 2     relation to enemy forces?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us who carries out that sort of monitoring?

 5        A.   Monitoring over the hostile or enemy forces is carried out by the

 6     intelligence organs at all levels.

 7        Q.   In the administration for operations and training, or in the

 8     staff, did you receive information about the enemy forces?

 9        A.   Yes.  We received that information from the intelligence

10     administration because its an essential element of planning.  And we also

11     received it through the regular combat reports from the corps command.

12        Q.   You said that this was an essential element of planning, are you

13     referring to combat activities?

14        A.   Yes, the planning of combat activities.

15        Q.   Can you tell us who is in charge of planning combat activities?

16        A.   The commander and the command organs are in charge of doing that.

17        Q.   Can you tell us whether in the planning of combat activities the

18     operations organ plays a part?

19        A.   The operation organ coordinates work on the planning, the work of

20     the other organs and draws up the combat documents.

21        Q.   And when these combat documents have been drawn up, does he take

22     them to the commander or the Chief of Staff?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, leading.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic, please.  Just rephrase your

25     question, unless you want to contest the objection.

Page 28296

 1             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you tell us how these combat documents are drawn up?

 3        A.   The documents that we drew up in the operations organs in the

 4     administration and in the department, we delivered to the Chief of Staff

 5     for his perusal.  He inspects the documents and then takes them to the

 6     commander for his approval and signature.

 7        Q.   Have you completed your reply?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And does the operations organ participate in the planning of all

10     the combat activities that the units of Republika Srpska carry out?

11        A.   No.  The operations and training organs of the Main Staff plan

12     operations at the strategic level, operations of a strategic

13     significance; whereas, at the operative level, it's the corps commands

14     that plan the activities.

15        Q.   Can you explain to us what the strategic level is?

16        A.   Those operations encompassing the entire army or the forces of

17     two or more corps.

18        Q.   We are now talking about the operations organ in the Main Staff

19     of the army of Republika Srpska.  Does he have any influence on the

20     planning of operations carried out by the corps?

21        A.   No, except for the overview I mentioned when orders and decisions

22     are entered into a map and sent from the corps command to the commander

23     for his verification.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] A correction.  My question

25     referred to operations planned by the corps.

Page 28297

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we don't participate in that.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Are you aware that the Main Staff, while you were there,

 4     established various forward command posts?  Are you aware of that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you explain to us why these forward command posts were

 7     established?

 8        A.   Forward command posts are established at all levels of command

 9     with a view to gaining a better insight into -- and the more efficient

10     influence on the course of combat activities.

11        Q.   Your information, based on the reports arriving from Zepa from

12     General Tolimir, according to this information, what was the size of

13     those operations?  Were they large scale, small scale --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection, foundational and leading to a point.

15     He's not established these reports, what reports?  General Tolimir's

16     involvement in them.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, which reports are you specifically referring

18     to?  Forget about the leading, because to me, he hadn't finished the

19     question as yet.  But for the time being I think we need that

20     information.  Yes; Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just a couple of foundational questions.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes.  Are you following, Mr. Petrusic?  Do you

23     know exactly what's being required of you?  Okay.  Then go ahead.

24             Mr. Petrusic, this the column is really creating a problem.  I

25     don't know, I mean I could interrupt you for two minutes, perhaps you

Page 28298

 1     could move somewhere where I can have eye-to-eye contact with you which,

 2     to me, as an experienced judge is very important.  As it is, I can't see

 3     you, I don't know what's happening.  So if you could move near

 4     Ms. Nikolic, for example, where I can follow you better it would be much

 5     appreciated.

 6             All right.  Perhaps we can continue now, as Judge Prost is

 7     suggesting, and we will do that in the break.  Okay?

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] All right.

 9        Q.   General, did you receive combat reports from the Drina Corps in

10     the Main Staff?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did these reports contain, inter alia, information on certain

13     events in the Zepa war theater?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you also receive certain reports from General Tolimir from

16     that part of the war theater?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Based on these reports, as the chief of the department for

19     operations, could you conclude -- were you able to conclude what sort of

20     the combat activities and of what intensity were being carried out in

21     that part of the war theater?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can you tell us what that intensity was, meaning the intensity of

24     operations?

25        A.   As far as the forces involved, go, it was not a large-scale

Page 28299

 1     operation.  It was within the zone of the Drina Corps.  There were no

 2     forces from other corps acting jointly with them except for one unit of

 3     the 65th Protection Regiment, just a part of that regiment, they were

 4     active in that area.  But all the rest were Drina Corps forces.

 5        Q.   In this situation, do you know why General Mladic was there?

 6        A.   It's the right of the commander to decide where he will go and

 7     where he will be at any point in time, to follow what's going on and who

 8     he will send there.

 9        Q.   You said you also had occasion to see General Tolimir's report.

10     My question is:  Do you know why it was General Tolimir who was there in

11     that part of the war theater?

12        A.   Probably that area, as regards intelligence and security, was of

13     interest.  The command there, for this reason, engaged the

14     General Tolimir.

15        Q.   Bearing in mind your testimony, was General Tolimir then a person

16     who, acting on orders from General Mladic, monitored the operation at

17     Zepa?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   If you are talking about the right of the commander as to where

20     he wanted to be, do you know based on what he estimated and assessed the

21     situation and its significance for an area so as to be able to decide

22     where he wanted to be?

23        A.   This would be based on the information that he received from the

24     command organs.

25             He would then make his own assessment and decide where to go.

Page 28300

 1        Q.   I don't want to lead you, although I am going to talk about

 2     notorious facts.  Who was your immediate superior commander?

 3        A.   General Miletic, the chief of administration for operations and

 4     training.

 5        Q.   Who was your second in command?

 6        A.   The chief of the Main Staff, Lieutenant-General

 7     Manojlo Milovanovic.

 8        Q.   In performing your tasks and duties, did you have an occasion to

 9     report directly to the chief of staff, General Milovanovic.

10        A.   Rarely.  My communication with him went through General Miletic

11     for the most part.

12        Q.   In those rare occasions, did you have an occasion to deliver some

13     documents to him?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you please tell us something about the relationship between

16     General Milovanovic and -- or, rather, what was the attitude of

17     General Milovanovic towards the documents that he received?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just, foundational, what documents, when, what

21     they had to do with?

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm not sure whether this arises out previous

23     questions, but I have my doubts like you.

24             So perhaps, Mr. Petrusic, could you be specific as which

25     documents that you wish to refer the witness to or that you are referring

Page 28301

 1     to?

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You've already spoken about General Mladic and

 4     General Milovanovic and preparing some combat documents for them.  Did

 5     you do that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And did you take these combat documents to General Milovanovic

 8     for his approval?

 9        A.   Yes, those were mostly daily combat reports and orders,

10     information.

11        Q.   What was his attitude towards the documents that you would bring

12     him?

13        A.   At first when I arrived and later he -- he's a stickler for

14     detail.  He would read all these documents.  He would correct the

15     wording.  He would even correct grammatical mistakes in these documents.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the Court to

17     produce D5 [as interpreted], the first page in the English version and in

18     the Serbian version it will be the last page.  P5.  The document number

19     is P5.

20        Q.   General, sir, you have the document in front of you on the

21     screen.  As you are looking at the Serbian version of this document, do

22     you recognise the signature?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  This is the signature of the Chief of Staff of the

24     Main Staff, Lieutenant General Milovanovic.

25        Q.   Could you please tell us something about the contents of this

Page 28302

 1     document.

 2        A.   This is an accompanying document which was enclosed with the

 3     document of the upcoming directions which was submitted to the command of

 4     the 1st Krajina Corps.  A request is made for one copy of this

 5     accompanying document in order to confirm the receipt of the

 6     aforementioned directive.

 7        Q.   It says in this document that this is directive --

 8        A.   Number 7.

 9        Q.   -- number 7.  Is it?  So this is an accompanying document for

10     Directive number 7?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   On the left-hand side you can see the initials "JK/SZ."  Are you

13     familiar with the initials "JK"?

14        A.   Yes, that's Krsto Djeric, colonel by rank.  I believe that SZ

15     stands for somebody whose family is Zekovic, but I can't remember his

16     first name.  I've forgotten.  The first set of initials represent the

17     person who drafted the document, and the second set of initials

18     represents the person who actually typed it out.

19        Q.   This accompanying document, together with the directive, was it

20     submitted to General Mladic [as interpreted]?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Line 21, page 15, instead of

23     "General Mladic" it should read "General Milovanovic" -- line 14, I

24     apologise.

25        Q.   When this document reached him, did General Milovanovic

Page 28303

 1     familiarized himself with this directive?

 2        A.   He should have been.  He should have familiarized himself with

 3     it.

 4        Q.   As far as you were of his attitude towards documents that reached

 5     him, did he read this directive?

 6        A.   Given his position and duties that he discharged as well as the

 7     significance of the directive, as a general document issued by the

 8     highest of commands, a document that should have been applied over a long

 9     period of time, he must have read it.

10        Q.   According to the best of your knowledge and military knowledge

11     that you have about the drafting of a document of this nature, did

12     General Milovanovic have to be privy to a document of this sort?

13        A.   Yes, he had to be privy, especially in light of the fact that he

14     was in the zone of the 1st and the 2nd Krajina Corps where he should have

15     applied this directive, or at least he was supposed to apply it.

16        Q.   Does it arise from this document that this Directive number 7 was

17     sent to this corps, precisely there?

18        A.   Yes, it says the 1st Krajina Corps.

19        Q.   Can you tell us in principle what the nature of a directive is,

20     what kind of a document is that?

21        A.   A directive is a document used by high-ranking commands.  It's a

22     general act.  It doesn't provide any details of any tasks, but it

23     provides and outlines of the goals that a corps has to be aware of in

24     order to issue orders to its subordinated units.  And these goals are

25     relative to the planned operations.

Page 28304

 1             In other words, there is no detail provided as, for example, in

 2     orders issued to the lower-ranking units.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us furthermore in principle, who are the persons

 4     involved in the drafting of a directive?

 5        A.   The drafting of a directive involves the work of all the organs

 6     of a command.

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Let's now move on to the last page

 8     of the directive in both versions, in the Serbian as well as in the

 9     English version of the document.  I'm looking for the last page until the

10     English version and in the Serbian version it is page 11.  In the Serbian

11     version, it is 21.  The last page in the English version.  Yes, very

12     well.  In the Serbian version the page is correct, but can it please be

13     scrolled up, page 21.  Very well, thank you.

14        Q.   General, sir, you can see here the term, "Drafted by Colonel

15     Radivoje Miletic."  Could you please interpret the term "drafted by" for

16     us; what does the term mean?

17        A.   The term "drafted by" means that the person unified all the

18     elements received from other commands and merging those into a single

19     document, i.e., this person received elements from all the organs that

20     participating in the drafting of this document.

21        Q.   A document merged in this way or unified in this way, could you

22     tell us what happens to it?

23        A.   According to the procedure, such a document is then submitted to

24     the commander who was in charge of its drafting, who was responsible for

25     the drafting; and that person is supposed to sign this document.

Page 28305

 1        Q.   This directive was submitted for signature to the Supreme

 2     Commander, then President Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Could Dr. Karadzic change anything in this directive, i.e., the

 5     submitted document?

 6        A.   His rights and powers allowed him to do so.

 7        Q.   Let me be completely sure.  You said that his right and powers

 8     allowed him to change the document?

 9        A.   Yes, he was the Supreme Commander.

10        Q.   What about the chief of administration for operations and

11     training, did he determine the contents of a directive in any way?

12        A.   The chief of administration for operations and training did not

13     determine the contents of a directive.  The contents of a directive are

14     defined by the competent organs and they provide elements.  What they

15     propose is accepted by the commander, and this is what is incorporate in

16     a directive as far as the administration for training and operations is

17     concerned.

18        Q.   General, sir, you were in Crna Rijeka.  Where exactly were you

19     billeted during the discharge of your duties?

20        A.   I said I had a room that I shared with another person which had a

21     bed and a desk, but most of the time I spent in the operations room.

22        Q.   And what about General Miletic; where would he stay?

23        A.   General Miletic, he had his own room, but he also spent part of

24     his time in the operations room.

25        Q.   Are you familiar with the extension 155?

Page 28306

 1        A.   Extension 155 was used by the Chief of Staff, but it was

 2     installed in two or three rooms; so it often happens in the operations

 3     room when the phone rang.  I would pick up the phone and then

 4     General Milovanovic would tell me put the receiver down, because the same

 5     exchange was in the room where he spent his working hours as well as in

 6     the room where he rested.

 7        Q.   Who else would be in the operations room in addition to you and

 8     General Miletic?

 9        A.   Colonel Krsto Djeric would be there and other organs of the staff

10     would also come, the organs for various branchs.  And when it came to the

11     exchange of certain information and documents, some organs that did not

12     belong to the staff would be involved in that as well.

13        Q.   And what about the duty operations officers, where did they spend

14     their time?

15        A.   They had a special room in a special building below Zepa.

16        Q.   Are you talking about the so-called G1 facility?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The underground facility?

19        A.   Yes.  When there was no imminent danger then we would be in the

20     prefabricated facilities, and when there was danger they would force us

21     to go up there to hide.

22        Q.   What about this exchange 155, the telephone extension.  Was this

23     installed in the underground facility as well?

24        A.   Yes.  Up there was the main communications hub, the main

25     communications centre.

Page 28307

 1             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will have a few

 2     more questions.  I know it's not the time for our first break; however,

 3     if it does not interfere with your plans, I would kindly ask you to allow

 4     us to have our first break now.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's have the break now, but since I

 8     had an appointment, which now cannot be moved, the break will be of 30

 9     minutes and not 25 minutes.  Thank you.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. -- I apologise.

11     I will probably not have anymore questions, but I wanted still to have a

12     consultation with my client.  So pending that consultation, I may not

13     have any questions after the break.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  No problem at all, Mr. Petrusic.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic, at least I can see you better

18     now.  Please, go ahead.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no more

20     questions for the witness in the examination-in-chief.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.  It will not be a problem

22     with Ms. Nikolic because Ms. Nikolic I can see.  So she is not behind a

23     column.

24             So let's do the round.

25             Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 28308

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No question for the witness, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             Mr. Ostojic.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

 5     Honours.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I do have a few questions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please, go ahead.

 9                           Cross-examination by Ostojic:

10        Q.   General Obradovic, my name is John Ostojic, and I represent

11     Ljubisa Beara in this case.  I would like to ask you a few questions,

12     sir, if I may.  Good morning, to you.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Sir, in July of 1995, and I note that your first name is

15     Ljubomir, were you known by any nicknames by either your family or your

16     colleagues in the military?

17        A.   My colleagues from the military usually addressed me as Obrad; in

18     my family they call me Ljubo.

19        Q.   Did anyone in the military in 1995, July particularly, refer to

20     you as Ljubo, to the best of your recollection?

21        A.   Some people did, but most of them called me Obrad.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I want to go back to your testimony of last week, the

23     14th of November, and particularly just for the record, it's on pages

24     28275, and you were describing for the Court when you were giving an

25     answer to my learned friend, Mr. Petrusic, an example where - it's on

Page 28309

 1     line 10 - where you say:  "The corps commander did not dare communicate

 2     bad news to the commander of the Main Staff."  And then you go on and

 3     gave us what seems to be a firsthand account of a discussion you had in

 4     the presence of General Tolimir; and you proceed to say where he called

 5     Stevo Bogojevic and asked him whether the information that he had

 6     actually received was actually true.

 7             You go on the next page just for reference sir, on page 28276,

 8     lines 2 through 5, you state as follows:

 9             "The latter confirmed that, and when General Tolimir asked him to

10     write a report he said, 'Well, I can't.  My commander won't allow me to

11     write a report of that sort.  This is, for example, one way of

12     information reaching superior officers.'"

13             Can you, to the best of your recollection in describing the

14     situation, tell us when this event occurred that you were referencing?

15        A.   This event occurred in October 1994, and I refer to it as a

16     typical example of something unusual happening.

17        Q.   And can you just share with us again that Stevo Bogojevic, he was

18     in the 1st Krajina corps; would that be correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And he was a security officer in the 1st Krajina Corps, correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Who was the commander at that time who is restricting him from

23     providing written reports to the Main Staff regarding certain situations?

24        A.   The commander of the 1st Krajina Corps was General Talic.

25        Q.   That's all the questions I have.  Thank you very much, sir.

Page 28310

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you Mr. Ostojic.

 2             Ms. Nikolic.

 3             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

 4     questions for this witness.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.

 6             MS. NIKOLIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no questions for

 7     this witness.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thanks, Ms. Nikolic.

 9             Mr. Gosnell.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  No questions, Mr. President.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Krgovic.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  I have a few questions, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, please go ahead.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Obradovic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Or general, that's how I should address you.

18        A.   Well, I am retired.

19        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic, I appear for General Gvero; and I will

20     ask you a few questions about your testimony.

21             General, you said during your examination-in-chief that you

22     arrived in the Main Staff around the 17th of July 1995.  Do you remember

23     saying that?

24        A.   Yes.  That was the date when I came back from sick leave.

25        Q.   That's what I was actually referring to.  Let's go back to July

Page 28311

 1     1995 when you returned.  There was a command post in Crna Rijeka of the

 2     Main Staff and a so-called auxiliary command post in Hans Pijesak; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   The Main Staff was deployed in two locations, in Crna Rijeka and

 5     in Hans Pijesak.

 6        Q.   In July 1995, when you arrived in Crna Rijeka, you didn't see

 7     General Gvero there, did you?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9        Q.   General, when answering my colleague's questions, the questions

10     of Mr. Petrusic, you spoke about the way documents and directives of the

11     Main Staff are drawn up.  Do you draw a distinction between the documents

12     drawn up in the Main Staff and the documents drawn up in the Supreme

13     Command?  There is a difference between those two types of documents, is

14     there not?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   When you spoke about the way in which these documents were drawn

17     up, you were referring to the ones drawn up in the Main Staff were you

18     not?

19        A.   Yes, I was.

20        Q.   Directive number 7, to be specific, that you were asked about,

21     was issued by the Supreme Command, was it not?

22        A.   Yes, the one we saw was signed by the president of the republic,

23     Dr. Radovan Karadzic, who was the commander-in-chief.

24        Q.   In the title -- in the heading, it says, "Directive of the

25     Supreme Command," does it not?

Page 28312

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Your explanation as to the manner how directive could be drawn

 3     up, was based on your knowledge and experience, but is theoretical is it

 4     not?

 5        A.   Well, I wasn't there when any of these directives were being

 6     drawn up.  I did not participate in drawing them up nor was I present

 7     when they were being drawn up.

 8        Q.   Well, that's precisely what I was getting at.  You arrived in the

 9     Main Staff in September 1994; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   The directive which was issued before Directive 7 was directive

12     number 6, and that was issued in 1993.  I assume you were unable to

13     participate in its drafting?

14        A.   No, I wasn't.

15        Q.   And you were absent from the Main Staff from January 1995 until

16     July 1995 when Directive number 7 was be compiled, so you were not able

17     to participate in its drafting either?

18        A.   Yes, I was absent from the 27th of January 1995 to the 17th of

19     July, 1995.

20        Q.   Directives numbers 8 and 9 were drawn up in forward command post

21     1 and Drvar respectively; so you were not able to participate in the

22     drafting of these either, were you?

23        A.   No, I wasn't.

24        Q.   Sir, I will move on to another topic.  When you were referring to

25     the organs of the Main Staff, you mentioned a term which has to do with

Page 28313

 1     the corps.  You spoke about command.  According to the practice and the

 2     documents of the army of Republika Srpska, the corps had commands and the

 3     Main Staff was the Main Staff.  And there was also the Supreme Command at

 4     Pale.  Do you draw a distinction among these terms?

 5        A.   The Main Staff was the command, because it had the commander of

 6     the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska and the chief of staff of

 7     the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.  I do not deny the existence of the

 8     Supreme Command.

 9        Q.   But the term usually employed was Main Staff?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   When you spoke about -- well, according to my information, there

12     was a collegium in the Main Staff, a narrow collegium and an extended

13     collegium.  Do you agree that the term used was "collegium"?

14        A.   Well, the narrow part of the command, the collegium, is comprised

15     of --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the answer, the last

17     part of the answer, please.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Obradovic, the interpreters didn't catch the

19     last part of your answer.  If you could repeat it, please.  Well, I will

20     read out to you what we have in the transcript so far.

21             The question was:

22             "Do you agree that the term used was 'collegium'"?

23             And you answered:

24             "Well, the narrow part of the command, the collegium is comprised

25     of ..." that's where we need you to continue, from there.

Page 28314

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a synonym.  The collegium and

 2     the narrow part of the command are synonymous.  They refer to one and the

 3     same thing.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but the collegium would be what is comprised

 5     of what or whom, so that we make sure that we are on the same wavelength.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's comprised of, Your Honours,

 7     the commander and the assistant commanders and the Chief of Staff.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Let's go back to a topic we had mentioned previously.  When you

11     arrived in July 1995 in the Serbian language, you told me you did not see

12     General Gvero at all, but it's not reflected in the transcript.  So could

13     you repeat your answer?

14        A.   On the 17th of July on my return from sick leave, I did not see

15     General Gvero on the 17th of July.

16        Q.   And later on in the course of July, although you mentioned this,

17     the Main Staff went west; but you didn't see General Gvero in Crna

18     Rijeka, did you?

19        A.   Well, when I said they went west, all the assistants went there,

20     the Chief of Staff and the commander.

21        Q.   There is another point I wanted to clarify with you,

22     Mr. Obradovic.  When you spoke about the right of the commander, or,

23     rather, the absence of the commander, and how the Main Staff functions in

24     his absence, you said that according to the establishment in the absence

25     of the commander, he is replaced by the Chief of Staff?

Page 28315

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The command post of the Main Staff was in the zone of

 3     responsibility of the Drina Corps, was it not?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And when the commander was in the area of the Drina Corps, there

 6     was no reason for him to be replaced by anyone because he was in constant

 7     communication with the Main Staff, was he not?

 8        A.   Well, the commander, wherever he is on the territory of Republika

 9     Srpska, has communications with the Main Staff and the subordinate units.

10     But he was nearby in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps.

11        Q.   And when you spoke about the manner in which the Main Staff

12     functions, you spoke on the basis of your experience and your

13     professional knowledge?

14        A.   Yes, experience and knowledge.

15        Q.   And you never saw a written order where Mladic authorised someone

16     to stand in for him in his absence or to deputize for him; and I'm

17     referring to the time-period up to the point where we they have all went

18     west?

19        A.   I didn't see any order signed by him personally, but I didn't

20     need to see it.  It wouldn't referred to me, so there would be no reason

21     for me to see it.

22        Q.   You are not aware in a General Gvero ever deputized for

23     General Mladic?

24        A.   I cannot assert that.

25        Q.   But you're not aware of it?

Page 28316

 1        A.   No.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said he was not aware

 3     of it but it's not reflected -- ah, now it's in the transcript; I

 4     apologise.

 5        Q.   General, it's the commander's right, at any point in time, to

 6     designate someone to carry out a certain QT or to entrust a certain

 7     function to someone?

 8        A.   It's his right.  But there is a hierarchy to be observed.  He's

 9     not going to designate me to deputize for him when he has close

10     associates who are senior in rank and position.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honour.

12             Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.  Mr. Sarapa.

14             MR. SARAPA:  No questions, thank you.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  The ball is in your court,

16     Mr. McCloskey.  You had asked for three hours; is that still your

17     estimate?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I hope it will be shorter than that.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  In other words, is there a possibility that we will

20     send the gentleman back home today.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So let's proceed, thank you.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

24        Q.   Good morning, General.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 28317

 1        Q.   So I take it General Gvero was a close associate of

 2     General Mladic?

 3        A.   Yes, was his assistant for morale.

 4        Q.   With a long history of knowing each other and working together as

 5     well?

 6        A.   I don't know whether they had known each other for a long time,

 7     but they worked together from 1992 onwards.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let me first ask you, you were obviously a -- a serious

 9     officer as the chief of operations at the Main Staff in 1995.  When you

10     wrote a document and submitted it to your superior, General Miletic, did

11     you take responsibility for that document, for its content, for its

12     recommendations?

13        A.   My responsibility was to deal with a document professionally, but

14     the responsibility lay with my superior.

15        Q.   Meaning General Miletic?

16        A.   Yes, and his superior was also responsible for him because

17     whoever signs a document has to read it.  If he trusts his subordinate,

18     he might do it without inspecting the document first.

19        Q.   So documents containing suggestions, goals, analysis, that came

20     out of the operations branch in the name of General Miletic, General

21     Miletic would take responsibility for that information as it went up the

22     line to his superior?

23        A.   Yes, and his superior was duty-bound to control him or to monitor

24     him.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, just talk briefly about directives.  We see that

Page 28318

 1     Directive 7 came out of the operations branch.  Before getting to

 2     President Karadzic, did it -- did it go from its drafter, Miletic, to

 3     Milovanovic or should it have gone to Milovanovic if he was around?

 4        A.   A directive is compiled based on certain assessments of the

 5     relevant officer, the commander issuing it.  There must have been a

 6     discussion in a certain circle for General Miletic to be given the task

 7     of drawing this up; and if his immediate superior was there, he would

 8     show it to him, for him to check it and give suggestions, and then to

 9     give him the green light to go to the commander who has to sign it.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, we know Directive 7 wasn't signed by Mladic,

11     but if -- let's just say for hierarchy's sake that Mladic, Milovanovic,

12     the assistant commanders, and the operations people, Miletic, got

13     together, had long meetings about what was going into this, perhaps they

14     had some input from the president's office; but then it gets drafted.

15     Let's say it goes to Milovanovic, then Milovanovic would send it to

16     General Mladic, wouldn't he?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Would you be one moment, before you answer I see

18     two Defence counsel to on their -- Mr. Petrusic.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me that this question

20     calls for speculation by the witness.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

22             MR. JOSSE:  That was going to be our objection, in particular in

23     light of the answers the witness gave to Mr. Krgovic's questions; namely,

24     he wasn't there at that time.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.  Thank you, Mr. Josse.

Page 28319

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the basic procedure of following a

 2     document is something that this witness can testify.  He testified at

 3     length in his direct examination about these sorts of issues.  This is

 4     nothing very mysterious nor I don't think very controversial.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course, the question does pose a hypothetical

 7     case, and it's not based on an event that is alleged to have taken place.

 8     Still, we believe that it would only call for speculation if the witness

 9     doesn't know how to answer and he just provides us with a guess.  But if

10     he knows the answer to such a question in such a hypothetical case, then

11     he should answer the question.

12             So we only want you to answer the question, Mr. Obradovic, if you

13     can give us an answer based on your experience in the VRS army and your

14     knowledge of how things proceeded during those times.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   General, we can start over again.  It's probably easier.  The

17     document comes out of the operations group.  It should go from Miletic to

18     Milovanovic if he's around, General Mladic probably wants to see it as

19     well, correct, before it goes to Karadzic?

20        A.   Your Honours, the directive was drafted on the 8th of March.

21     I've just seen it.  I did not participate in the drafting of this

22     document.  However, the tasks and the conclusions that were passed

23     towards the end of January, after the analysis of the combat readiness of

24     the army Republika Srpska, which involved the participation of the Main

25     Staff, which means the commander, his assistants, corps commanders, the

Page 28320

 1     Supreme Commander and his organs.  This analysis gave rise to certain

 2     conclusions which were the basis for the drafting of the directive that

 3     we are talking about.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  General, I am just trying to get a -- what should be

 5     the normal path of this directive before it gets finally signed off by

 6     Karadzic.  So if Milovanovic is there, you say he's a stickler for

 7     detail, he wants to see it.  Would Mladic want to seen it as well if he

 8     was there before it goes to the president, or would he see it under the

 9     rules that you were living by?

10        A.   According to procedure, General Miletic should have shown the

11     proposal of the directive to the commander, if the Chief of Staff was not

12     there, before sending it off to Karadzic.

13        Q.   Okay.  And if the Chief of Staff was there, and he showed it to

14     the Chief of Staff, would it still be seen by Mladic in your view under

15     the way the procedures -- and you know General Mladic better than we do.

16        A.   According to procedure, the Chief of Staff would be duty-bound to

17     show it to General Mladic of course, yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  And then it would go to the president's office in Pale, I

19     take it.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And do you know who -- who would first see it in Pale, a document

22     of this import coming out of the Main Staff?

23        A.   I'm not sure.  I'm not entirely sure.  Maybe it would be the

24     Minister of Defence or maybe it would go directly to the president.  I am

25     not aware of the methodology of the receipt of documents over there.

Page 28321

 1        Q.   Fair enough.  And I think you've said of course that the

 2     president, President Karadzic could take his pen to the directive and

 3     write in what he wanted to, correct?

 4        A.   It was his rights to reformulate, rephrase, add something,

 5     eliminate other things.

 6        Q.   Sure, but after he did that, if he did, it would go back to the

 7     Main Staff for the final typing, correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And at that point General Miletic would certainly see any changes

10     that President Karadzic had made, correct?

11        A.   Yes, but was not allowed to change anything, no.

12        Q.   Certainly.  How about would General Mladic want to look at it or

13     would General Mladic see it as well when it comes back from the

14     president's office, if it's not signed when it comes back and it's got

15     changes in it?

16        A.   Just out of curiosity but there was no reason for him to look at

17     it.  He will receive this document in its final form, anyway.  Once it

18     was sent to the president, the president signed it, and the document will

19     end up with the commander of the Main Staff for his information.

20        Q.   Now, as you said, the Main Staff assistant commanders all played

21     a role in putting -- making their input in this document - and we can see

22     that in the various headings of the document - so I take it the assistant

23     commanders would also be able to see this directive after it was

24     completed?

25        A.   The previous question that you put to me, it's beside the point

Page 28322

 1     to send it again to the Main Staff commander because he no longer had a

 2     say in it; whereas, during negotiation he did have a say in it.  That's

 3     why he would eventually receive this document as the final document for

 4     his information and perusal.

 5        Q.   All right.  Understood.  But my question was would the assistant

 6     commanders that played such a role in providing information for this

 7     document, would they see this document before it was signed off on by the

 8     president?  Would these the draft?

 9        A.   If they participated in the drafting, then yes.  And maybe they

10     would ask for it out of curiosity, but I can't really give you the exact

11     procedure.  I don't know what happened with this particular one.

12        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Now you have told us that General Miletic,

13     or Colonel Miletic for a time, was receiving the very important

14     information from the corps in the form of daily and interim combat

15     reports.  He was getting phone calls from the 65th Protection Regiment in

16     the morning and in the evening.  You told us that the corps commanders

17     would call and speak to Mladic in the evening, and when that happened

18     would important information that Mladic received through the corps

19     commanders be passed on to General Miletic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, when General Miletic receives this information, let's say

22     especially when he receives an interim combat report from a corps where

23     there is serious things going on, people's lives are being lost.  He

24     doesn't merely just pass on information to his commander, does he?  He

25     reviews this information, he studies it, and he analyses it; and he sends

Page 28323

 1     that information on to his commander that is the result of his study and

 2     his experience as a general, officer, or as a colonel, depending; is that

 3     right?

 4        A.   He passes on information.  If combat operations call for a brief

 5     review and his position on the course of the combat operations, he may

 6     give his assessment; however, if he receives information, he has to pass

 7     it on in its authentic form to the commander.  He must not reshape this

 8     information in any way, he must not tamper with it in any way.

 9        Q.   Of course.  But he has the bigger picture than the commander does

10     because he's received information from various corps from is a lot more

11     information than the commander has had time to take up, so in many cases

12     the commander want to hear his evaluation and his analysis and his

13     identification of problems, doesn't he?

14        A.   In the information, problems identified by the subordinate

15     commands, each with its respective zone was responsibility.  I am talking

16     about corps commanders.  A summary of those identified problems was sent

17     to General Miletic.  Since our operations centre was not organised as it

18     should have been, then the administration for operations and training

19     received this information, merged this information, and informed the

20     Chief of Staff; and the Chief of Staff would then pass it further on.

21        Q.   But the commander would want Miletic's evaluation on how to solve

22     those problems, wouldn't he?  Especially if Milovanovic wasn't there.

23        A.   At his specific request, he will certainly have his position as

24     an officer and will be able to meet the commander's request.

25        Q.   In other words, the request to provide insight, analysis,

Page 28324

 1     recommendations, and proposals.  That's his job in part, isn't it, to

 2     provide those things to the commander or the Chief of Staff?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   For example, an operation may be in great need of fuel.  We know

 5     fuel was a very tight commodity.  Information could come up through the

 6     corps to General Miletic that fuel was a big problem, and it would be

 7     General Miletic's job to try to sort out how to get the fuel to where it

 8     needed to go.  Of course, looking to his superior's, Milovanovic and

 9     General Mladic; isn't that correct?

10        A.   No.  Any requests for material and technical equipment would go

11     along the line of logistics support, and logistic organs of the corps

12     would then request from the operations logistics organ to supply them

13     with certain things.  And replenishment is done based on daily

14     consumption, losses, and approved quantities that the commander approved

15     either by issuing a directive or an order, as well as based on certain

16     norms of expenditure.  In their daily combat reports, corps commands

17     would also add their requests in addition to what they had already

18     written to the logistics sector of the Main Staff.

19        Q.   General, I am not speaking of sort of normal situation.  What I

20     am meaning to refer to is the situation, first of all, in Potocari when

21     there was thousands of Muslims that needed to be shipped out of the area

22     and fuel was in a difficult state.

23             Now, if General Milovanovic isn't at the HQ, he's off in the

24     Krajina, and the Drina Corps needs fuel, who is to coordinate with the

25     logistics branch and to get that fuel or to figure out a way to get that

Page 28325

 1     fuel if it's not General Miletic, chief of operations and training, who

 2     is standing in, in part for General Milovanovic?

 3        A.   Well, the basic activity of supply with fuels is not what

 4     operations organs do.  It is what logistics operations organs do.

 5        Q.   But when General Miletic -- when General Milovanovic is not

 6     there, you've already acknowledged that General Miletic is doing many of

 7     the daily tasks that General Milovanovic would normally deal with.

 8     Clearly, your not suggesting Milovanovic from the western front is --

 9     he's got his own problems with fuel, he wouldn't be the one that's sort

10     out fuel for a Drina Corps operation right near Hans Pijesak.  It would

11     be Miletic who is if one that's doing lots of his daily tasks, wouldn't

12     it --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Before you answer or -- go ahead, answer the

14     question.  Go ahead.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, supply with material

16     technical equipment, and fuel is a basic activity of the logistics

17     operations organs in the logistics sector.  And this resupply is based on

18     daily consumption, losses, approval quantities, the quantities that were

19     approved by either director -- directive or an order by the commander and

20     norms applied in such case.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Earlier on, before you started giving

22     your answer, I noticed General Miletic wishing to communicate with his

23     counsel.  Do you still wish to communicate with your counsel,

24     Mr. Miletic?

25             THE ACCUSED MILETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, please.

Page 28326

 1                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Mr. McCloskey, you can proceed.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   General, on the subject of nicknames, you've told us yours.

 5     We've heard the name Toso before, can you tell us who had that nickname,

 6     if anyone?

 7        A.   I suppose it was General Tolimir's nickname.  I believe that

 8     that's what he was called for short.

 9        Q.   Well, you -- I've got translated "I suppose."  But you're pretty

10     clear, you know that that's his nickname, right, back in July of 1995?

11        A.   Well, I didn't call him that.  He is my senior, those who could

12     did.  Yes, they did call him Toso for short.

13        Q.   And how about General Miletic?  What did people sometimes call

14     him as a nickname?

15        A.   Mico would be the customary shortened named of all Milovanovic,

16     Miletic, and people bearing similar family names.  Mico would be the

17     shortened version of those.

18        Q.   Well, my question wasn't what would be in the former Yugoslavia

19     the nicknames.  I was asking specifically.  We've seen the name Mile

20     referring, I believe, to General Miletic.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

22             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we have foundation for this

23     claim, please -- this assertion.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, what's the foundation.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  My good faith belief, and the presence of it on

Page 28327

 1     intercepts.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We don't have a problem with the question, please.

 5     So let's proceed.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   General, have you heard General Miletic referred to as Mile?

 8        A.   Mico, not Mile.  Mico.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to go over some documents with you.  The

10     first one I want to go over with is Directive 6, which was mentioned by

11     one of the Defence teams.  It's also mentioned in Directive 7 which was

12     dealt with as well, and it was mentioned that it -- well, and we'll -- if

13     we could see it briefly.

14             Let me give a hard copy so you can take a look at it.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 3919.

16        Q.   And just a few questions about this.  If we -- it's dated 11

17     November, 1993, sent to all the corps.  It's -- like Directive 7, it's

18     under the name of Radovan Karadzic, and also like Directive 7, you can

19     see at the end it's drafted by Colonel Radivoje Miletic.

20             So just a couple of things I wanted to ask you, because it's

21     referred to in Directive 7.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go, it's page 3 in the English,

23     it should be under paragraph 2(c), under prospects on the Serbian

24     version.  But these are just short snippets, and I am not asking you to

25     evaluate this whole thing.  It's a big, strategic, clearly well-thought

Page 28328

 1     out major document.  And it's page 3 in the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   It's talking about battles with the Muslims and the HVO, and it

 3     says:

 4             "In further battles, the use of chemical agents, irritants, can

 5     be expected.  The production of more dangerous chemical agents, which may

 6     be used at critical moments, can be expected in the next four to six

 7     months."

 8             Can you tell us what is meant by the chemical agent irritants, is

 9     that basically tear gas?

10        A.   I believe that this is chemical agent that the normally used by

11     the units of the military police, tear gas as you've called it.  Yes.

12        Q.   It also says that:  "The production of more dangerous chemical

13     agents which may be used at critical moments."

14             Surely your aware of the more serious chemical agents that the

15     JNA had in production.  What is this referred to, what kind of dangerous

16     chemical agent are they referring to?

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment before you answer the question,

18     Ms. Fauveau?

19             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I am just somewhat confused.  Can

20     we see first of all to which army this is referring to?  I think this is

21     somewhat problematic.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I said it in the question.  It's their word that

23     the Muslims and the Croats had this stuff.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think it's clear enough, Ms. Fauveau.  In any

25     case, if the witness has problems in understanding the question, he may

Page 28329

 1     ask for a clarification and I'm sure Mr. McCloskey will comply.

 2             Judge Kwon is drawing my attention that the witness said

 3     something that does not show in the transcript, so I think we need to

 4     do -- take care of the first.

 5             I am going to read to you, Mr. Obradovic, what we have in the

 6     transcript.  [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

 8             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No there is no discrepancy.  It's

 9     still not clear in my mind.  We are talking about combat operations with

10     the Muslims and the HVO, but who, in fact, was taking part in combat

11     operations between the Muslims and HVO, were there Serbs involved as

12     well?  This is what I would like to know, I find it problematic.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, do you wish to comment.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  As I mentioned, it's not my intention to get into

15     the details of -- of this, except to clearly point out like I did that we

16     are not talking about the Serbs having this stuff.  It's what they are

17     concerned the Muslims are having.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think that answers your question, Ms. Fauveau.

19     We still have got something missing from the question.  Mr. McCloskey,

20     the last part of which, if you look at lines 23 and 24 of the previous --

21     of page 46, we have:

22             "What is this referred to?  What kind of dangerous chemical

23     agents are they referring to?"  And then there is something missing

24     there.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think I just cut I myself off.  Sometimes I do

Page 28330

 1     that.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  Anyway, perhaps you can repeat

 3     the question at this point to the witness who must have lost track, and

 4     he can answer it.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Sir, we know, and you know, that there is one of the branches or

 7     organs is chemical, biological, and something else, I can't remember

 8     right now, warfare, and clearly you, as an experienced officer, can tell

 9     us what this more serious irritant that is referred to in this document

10     drafted by General Miletic?

11        A.   Your Honours, I have not found this formulation in my copy.  You

12     say it's 2(c).  This concerns information about the enemy, about the

13     armed forces of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina, and these are

14     assessments provided by the intelligence organ.  But based on what

15     information this assessment was made, that the enemy has -- have these

16     means at their disposal, I don't know; and I don't know what means

17     precisely are being referred to.  I only know what I learned in theory

18     about protection from chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons; but what

19     precisely is referred to here in this case, I don't know.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'm glad they never dropped any on you.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's move to your next question,

22     please.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Did you want to say something, General?

25        A.   I just wanted to add that this part of the directive was drawn up

Page 28331

 1     by the intelligence organ, the administration for intelligence affairs,

 2     which is in the security and intelligence sector.  General Miletic put

 3     all that together in this document; however, the content belongs to the

 4     intelligence officers.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now, keep looking, go to number 3.  It's called, "The Task

 6     of the Army of Republika Srpska."  Which branch or unit would have drawn

 7     up this section?

 8        A.   The army.

 9        Q.   But was one of the Main Staff branches?  Is this operations?

10        A.   This part of the tasks of the army is drawn up in the staff.  The

11     proposal for the use of their own forces is done by the operations and

12     training organ, but also the organs of the various branches.

13        Q.   Okay.  This -- this directive, Directive 6 and Directive 7 are

14     stored at the Main Staff and available to you and others at the staff

15     that want to review it, I take it?

16        A.   In view of the date of this directive, it's the end of 1993, and

17     I arrived in the second half of 1994.  So I didn't use it.  I didn't find

18     it necessary in order to actually see it.  It was not at my disposal.

19        Q.   But you were able to review and see Directive 7 and Directive 7.1

20     while you were at work in 1995?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, Directive 7 you may not recall makes a reference to

23     Directive 6, but let's -- I don't recall exactly where it refers us to

24     Directive 6; but just briefly, if we can look under this task of the army

25     of Republika Srpska, the second paragraph.  It talks about:

Page 28332

 1             "During offensive operations, regroup the main forces ..." and

 2     then there is a loft discussion about improving operational position,

 3     shorten the front line.

 4             And then number three, it says:

 5             "To create objective conditions for achievement of the strategic

 6     war goals of the army of Republic including ..." and then it lists --

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's page 4 of the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   It lists several war goals.  Were you aware of the strategic

 9     objectives of the VRS?  Do you know what they are talking about here?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  One moment, sorry, sorry.  Go

11     ahead.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was not familiar

13     with these strategic goals.  I was not aware of their existence in this

14     directive because I didn't actually have the directive in my hands.  Now,

15     I see four goals listed here.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Well, sir, we have seen significant documents in this case where

18     the -- there is a reference to the six strategic objectives, something

19     that was signed off by Mr. Krajisnik in 1992.  Have you ever heard of the

20     six strategic objectives?

21        A.   Yes, when the indictment against Mr. Krajisnik was published,

22     because the people around me asked me about this event; and I would often

23     say how can an army be successful if it doesn't have any goals, any goals

24     in combat.  But didn't know about these goals before.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, I would like you to --

Page 28333

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would like to go to, we are under paragraph

 2     number 5.  It's page 5 in the English.  And it's under the Eastern Bosnia

 3     Corps --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. McCloskey.  General Miletic, what's

 5     the problem?

 6             THE ACCUSED MILETIC: [Interpretation] May have two minutes to

 7     consult with my counsel, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly, of course.

 9             Ms. Fauveau, if you wish to speak to him outside of the room --

10     it's okay.  Then go ahead.

11                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, we can proceed.  Sorry for you

13     interrupting you like this, Mr. McCloskey.  You were, lines 7 to 9 of

14     page 51.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  There is a --

16        Q.   Just looking at the section regarding the Eastern Bosnia Corps, I

17     don't want to read the whole thing, but as we get to about line 5, 4 and

18     5, it's talking about launching operations to destroy the enemy forces

19     around certain villages, roll them back towards Tuzla and Srebrenik,

20     other things, and within coordination with the Drina Corps and the first

21     KK, launch fierce attacks to crush the Ustasha forces on the northern and

22     eastern slopes of Mount Majevica.

23             Now, the forces they are talking about on the slopes of Mount

24     Majevica, the enemy forces.  What does Ustasha refer to, is that Muslims

25     forces or Croat force or both, or neither?

Page 28334

 1        A.   Well, it would be most suitable if it referred to the Croatian

 2     forces, because that was the term used to refer to the HVO forces.

 3        Q.   Yes, I think we all know that based on World War II.  Are those

 4     Croatian forces that they're talking about there?

 5        A.   There are mostly Muslim forces there.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, looking at the Drina Corps, it's the next one down.

 7     It says:

 8             "Use some of the forces to maintain the blockade of enemy forces

 9     in Zepa, Srebrenica, and Gorazde enclaves, and constantly inflict

10     [Realtime transcript read in error, "conflicting"] losses on them and

11     disrupt their communications."

12             Now, the date of this, November 1993, its page 5 in the B/C/S,

13     what does that mean?  I mean, this is a -- there is a --

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Finish your question, and then we hear Mr. Josse.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   We think everyone will agree that there are protected enclaves at

17     that point, and I understand what "block them" means; and we know they

18     had enemy forces inside those enclaves.  But what I would like you to

19     explain is why would you then be constantly inflicting losses on them?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Josse.

21             MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, it may be an idea if the witness took

22     off his earphones, assuming he doesn't speak English.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Well, I think I did ask him the question last

24     Friday, and Mr. Obradovic said he doesn't understand English.  So could

25     you kindly remove your headphones, please.

Page 28335

 1             MR. JOSSE:  Your Honour, we have already objected to this line on

 2     the basis the witness was not involved in the preparation of this

 3     document.  But perhaps we could make a further objection and really

 4     invite the Prosecution, through Your Honours, to say where this is going

 5     and why they say this particular witness is competent to answer these

 6     question, how it arises from the examinations hitherto, although, I

 7     accept of course this cross-examination; but really where this is going

 8     and why this is an appropriate witness to ask about this particular

 9     document.  Which, hitherto, as far as I am aware, hasn't been introduced

10     into evidence.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Josse.  I am sure that you

12     would like to comment to that.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  First of all, I think they

14     brought up Directive 6, not me.  It's amazing to me that these kinds of

15     arguments are made when they bring them up.  But, more importantly, I --

16     because I don't think they brought it up very [indiscernible] frankly,

17     but they did.  I think it's pretty clear to me that the point -- well, I

18     think the Court knows the Prosecution's position on Directive 7 and the

19     two paragraphs in it.  One to make life miserable for the Muslims, to

20     make life impossible to be there; and then create a situation of permits

21     that restricts aid but doesn't make us look terrible in the international

22     community.  Those are two bad para-phrases of the critical points in

23     Directive 7.

24             Now, I believe the direct examination of the witness was designed

25     to suggest that he merely was drafting it and that perhaps these bad

Page 28336

 1     sections were added by somebody else and that he is not in the know and

 2     is not part of Directive 7 and not a big player in Directive 7.  I think

 3     that's what's coming.  I think that's what we've seen on direct

 4     examination.  So -- but you now know that Directive 6 was drafted by

 5     Miletic.  So he is an experienced draftsman in this area; and I think the

 6     material, especially as it regards to the Drina Corps and the history as

 7     it relates to the enclaves, is very important assist getting into his

 8     mind as he is the drafter of Directive 7, a document that has been

 9     historically incredibly important for this case and for the Trial

10     Chambers and for the Appellant Chambers that have reviewed it.  So the

11     door is wide open on directives and the man's drafting of them.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes, one moment.  Yes, Mr. Josse.

13             MR. JOSSE:  Could I briefly deal with the Gvero position on this.

14     Mr. Krgovic cross-examined on Directive 6 on an extremely limited basis,

15     as my learned friend has just conceded; namely, to illustrate that the

16     witness wasn't present in the Main Staff when that was drafted nor

17     Directive 7.  Nothing else.  Now, the rest of the response of my learned

18     friend relates primarily to General Miletic and the questions asked by

19     Mr. Petrusic on his behalf, and it's perhaps therefore -- it doesn't fall

20     to me to answer those points as such.

21             But, Your Honour, if it's suggested that by our cross-examination

22     of this witness on Directive 6, that's opened the door to this line, then

23     we refute that and invite the Court to say that simply isn't right and

24     proper.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Josse, but I think that there is

Page 28337

 1     more to it than that.  Our rules provide limits and extensions to those

 2     limits when it comes to cross-examination, and provided there is

 3     relevance to anything that is an issue, we cannot stop the Prosecution

 4     from putting such questions.  But in any case I need to consult with my

 5     colleagues.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So we are unanimous again on this.

 8     It's a perfectly legitimate question which the witness should be able to

 9     answer.  I think the -- you can either summarise it again or put the

10     question again, Mr. McCloskey; or I do it for you, if you want.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll try one more time, Mr. President.

12        Q.   General, getting back to where we were on the --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you are looking for your -- the text of your

14     question, you need to go first to lines 11 to 14 of page 52, and then

15     lines 19 to 22; and I point out to you that the last line contains a

16     mistake.  It's not -- it shouldn't be constant conflicting losses but

17     constant inflicting losses and you can take it up from there.  It's an

18     easy question which can be put again to the witness.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   General, the question is, everyone understands that this was the

21     so-called protected enclave and, well, in particular Srebrenica; and we

22     understand that you would -- that there were significant enemy forces in

23     Srebrenica at the time and that they needed to be blocked, and their

24     communications disrupted.  But can you tell me what is this reference to

25     constantly inflict losses on them.  Why is that a goal, a strategic goal,

Page 28338

 1     for an enclave where the -- we don't have active military operations?

 2        A.   From the enclaves, there are constant incursions with small

 3     sabotage groups, there were ambushes on the roads, civilians were killed

 4     and houses set on fire.  For these reasons, it says here that such

 5     activities should be prevented, activities of members of the army of BH.

 6        Q.   Well, if that's so, keep looking down the paragraph because then

 7     it's talking about Gorazde.  It says:

 8             "Group your forces as you see fit.  And with the appropriate

 9     re-enforcements, improve your operational position in the Sarajevo area

10     in keeping with the approved decision."

11             And then this is what I want you to concentrate on:

12             "Use some of your forces to coordinate actions with the Drina and

13     Herzegovina Corps in crushing the Muslim forces in the Gorazde area."

14             And then next paragraph it also says:

15             "Use part of the force to crush and destroy the Ustasha forces in

16     the Gorazde area in coordination with the Drina Corps."

17             This seems like a lot more than just hitting the Muslim forces

18     and crushing them when they come out to wreak havoc.  It is, isn't it.

19     It's more operational to keep them under military pressure?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, before you answer.

21             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the

22     witness to take his headphones off please.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Could you take off your headphones,

24     please.  Thank you.  Yes, Madam Fauveau.

25             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I am a little bit confused, I

Page 28339

 1     wanted the Prosecutor to let us know, does he mean holding the Serbian

 2     forces of the opposing side under pressure?  Is that the position of the

 3     Prosecutor during wartime?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, thank you, Madam Fauveau.  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  My question was suggesting to him that this

 6     indication is much more than just a prevention and a strike back at the

 7     Muslim forces.  That is an operational objective of offensive nature to

 8     put pressure on them militarily by -- as described in this document, as

 9     opposed to what he said earlier that this is just fighting with the guys

10     that come out and the wreak havoc.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Do you wish to comment further,

12     Ms. Fauveau or not?

13             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I still have the same problem.  Why

14     is it a problem to hold these people under pressure, the Muslims forces.

15     The problem may relate to the population.  But here we are talking about

16     the forces, I don't see why this is an issue.  I real don't understand.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let me consult with my colleagues.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I can point to specific evidence in the

19     indictment that makes it an issue, if you want to hear it.  The names of

20     the victim that died under this kind of conduct.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  We see no problem with the question, and we also

24     wish to point out that ultimately it's us that will need to decide what

25     weight to give to this consideration or opinion of the Prosecution.  So

Page 28340

 1     let's proceed, please.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   Sir, the question was:  Isn't this language about using your

 4     forces to destroy the Ustasha forces in the Gorazde area and crushing the

 5     Muslim forces in the Gorazde area; doesn't that mean what it says, crush

 6     the Muslims forces in the Gorazde area and get rid of the Gorazde

 7     enclave?

 8        A.   That's not my interpretation.  You said a little while ago that

 9     these were so-called protected areas because we had large forces of the

10     army of BH in these areas.  It's as if there had been parachutes dropped

11     behind the lines of the army of Republika Srpska, because every day they

12     were wreaking havoc; and they were a legitimate target of the army of

13     Republika Srpska.  I am referring to their forces which were in Gorazde,

14     Zepa, and Srebrenica.

15        Q.   And, General, I am not sure that I would disagree with you on

16     that point.  And this is whether or not the attack on Gorazde -- or a

17     potential attack on Gorazde, excuse me, or the Srebrenica attack on

18     Gorazde, was military -- militarily justifiable, is not something I want

19     to get into with you.  What -- all I am asking you is Gorazde was a real

20     thorn in the side of the VRS, they had forces in there, and the VRS

21     wanted to take it out and get rid of it, correct?

22        A.   There wouldn't have been a problem had there been no armed forces

23     in Gorazde, but they were at division levels, and they were engaged in

24     combat against the army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   I agree with you, and therefore it was the aim of the VRS to go

Page 28341

 1     in there and crush those -- that army and get that army out of there, to

 2     stop them from -- from doing that, defeat them completely militarily.

 3        A.   In any way conflict, the aim is to defeat the opponent.

 4        Q.   And there is nothing wrong with that, I'm just saying that that's

 5     what this is saying, let's defeat the Gorazde opponent, let's go in there

 6     and crush them militarily, completely.  Correct?

 7        A.   That would be a conflict with the enemy forces.  I don't see any

 8     problem there.  If someone is inflicting losses on you every day, making

 9     normal life impossible, attacking civilians, burning houses, they have to

10     be prevented.

11        Q.   We are not making a subjective judgment, we are just trying to

12     determine what this says.  So this says go in and clear out the enemy and

13     defeat them, correct?  In Gorazde.

14        A.   What passage is that.

15        Q.   "Use part of the forces to crush and destroy the Ustasha forces

16     in the Gorazde area in coordination with the Drina Corps."

17        A.   Yes, part of the forces to keep.

18        Q.   And then the paragraph above that:

19             "Use some of your forces to coordinate action with the Drina

20     Corps and the Herzegovina Corps in crushing the Muslim forces in the

21     Gorazde area."

22        A.   In the passage starting with the Drina Corps, there is no

23     statement of that sort, defeat finally.  It says to keep them in the

24     enclaves of Zepa, Gorazde, and Srebrenica.  To inflict losses, and to

25     disrupt their communication and put up decisive defence on the front

Page 28342

 1     towards Kladanj and Olovo.  There is a constant threat coming from

 2     Kladanj and Olovo.  Actually, the threat is that the forces from Kladanj

 3     and Olovo would link up with the forces in the enclaves, and that was a

 4     constant threat.

 5        Q.   We talked about that in Srebrenica, I am now talking at the

 6     bottom here, Gorazde.  There is no discussion like there is about

 7     Srebrenica.  Gorazde, all Gorazde says is crush and destroy the Ustasha

 8     forces.  And all I'm asking you is doesn't that mean defeat them

 9     militarily?

10        A.   Yes, Muslim forces.

11        Q.   And in this case the Ustasha forces are the Muslims forces?

12        A.   The person who drafted this or typed this, I really don't know

13     why he put "Ustasha" there.  I suppose that the reason was the fact that

14     the Ustasha forces in the second World War had a lot of Muslims as their

15     members.  I don't see any other reason.

16        Q.   You don't think it's because all sides in war come up with really

17     derogatory nasty names to call each other?  We are not here because of

18     nasty names, General; but isn't this what is about?  This is just a nasty

19     name being used in a document?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  Of course, yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As by the same token as they called

24     us Chetniks.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 28343

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, it's break time.  25 minutes.  Thank you.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Okay, General, let's go to Directive 7 now for a little while,

 8     hopefully not too long.  I think you told us --

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, it's 65 ter number 5.

10        Q.   And I think you've told us you did have a chance to look at that

11     because it had more application for your time-period when you got there

12     in July; is that correct?

13        A.   I looked at 7/1, but then I saw this one as well.

14        Q.   So you saw 7/1 but you also saw Directive 7, this one that we

15     have in front of us now?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And by seeing it did you review it, you know, back in July of

18     1995?

19        A.   No.  I saw it later.

20        Q.   When did you see it?

21        A.   In the course of August, September, of the same year, 1995.

22        Q.   And how did -- how was it that you happened to review it in

23     August or September 1995?

24        A.   It was in General Miletic's strong box.

25        Q.   Okay.  What else did he have in his strong box?

Page 28344

 1        A.   A pile of papers.

 2        Q.   Well, we won't explore his strong box this afternoon.  Why did

 3     you go to his strong box to get the directive?

 4        A.   He ordered me to find some other document.  I came across the

 5     directive, and I had a look at it.

 6        Q.   And did you read the whole thing?

 7        A.   I looked at the information about the enemy and the tasks of the

 8     corps.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's -- if you could, it's -- should be page 8 in

10     the English, page, I think it should be 11, but it's pretty much -- it's

11     number 4 where it says:  "I hereby decide ..."

12             And just looking at the paragraph right above number 4, I just --

13     and I not -- I don't really want to go into this in detail, but we can

14     see that there is a comment that it says:

15             "And thus, by force of arms, impose the final outcome of the war

16     on the enemy, forcing the world into the recognizing the actual situation

17     on the ground and ending the war."

18             So is it fair to say that at the time this was written, the --

19     there was actually a belief that the war may end, that the planning for

20     the end of war is actually happening?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.  And we see number 4 -- sorry, number little (4) in that

23     same paragraph, it's the last line of below that part about ending the

24     war, it says:

25             "To create optimum conditions for the state and political

Page 28345

 1     leadership, to negotiate a peace agreement, and accomplish the strategic

 2     objectives of the war."

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, this is -- is this the same strategic objectives we saw in

 5     Directive 6?

 6        A.   I wouldn't be sure, but I suppose so.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now --

 8        A.   I was not familiar with the goals.  It's impossible for me to

 9     say.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's just go to -- it's number 5, it's "Unit

11     assignments."  That's the one you are interested in, right, it should be

12     just below the part that you are looking at.  It should --

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is that the one that you looked at that you said you were

15     interested in?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And who would have put that -- put that part together, the unit

18     assignment section, 13 in B/C/S --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment before you answer this question,

20     Mr. Petrusic.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Objection -- it is not an

22     objection, Your Honour, but the relevant page is not on the screen, so we

23     kindly ask for the page to be put on the screen.  So this is not an

24     objection, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Fair comment.  Can you help us --

Page 28346

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I just said 13, maybe it didn't get translated.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  There is 13; 13 in B/C/S.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Maybe 11.  It's 13 -- no, Ms. Stewart is correct.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  It's page 13, Mr. Petrusic.  All right.  Okay, I

 5     think having -- I think I understand with Mr. Petrusic to be okay, and we

 6     can proceed.  Thank you.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   So which branch put together this unit assignment section?

 9        A.   I just said that it was the organ for operations and training and

10     arms organs that do that.  They put proposals for the use of their own

11     units.

12        Q.   So General Miletic would have played a role in this?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go -- it should be the next page in

16     English, page 9.  It's really the second -- there is just another

17     reference to the Ustasha forces, which I won't go into.  So don't worry

18     about that.

19             Now, it's page 10 of the English under the Drina Corps section.

20     It's after the East Bosnian Corps, you probably know the order.  I

21     believe it's page 15 of the --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- B/C/S.  I don't -- I won't read this out

24     again.  We've heard this quite a bit.

25        Q.   Have you read the Drina Corps section part about making life for

Page 28347

 1     the inhabitants of Srebrenica unbearable?  Okay, I think that speaks for

 2     itself.  What I wanted to ask you about is the sentence that starts:

 3             "In case the UNPROFOR forces leave Zepa and Srebrenica, the Drina

 4     Corps command shall plan an operation named Jadar with the task of

 5     breaking up and destroying the Muslim forces in these enclaves and

 6     definitively and definitely liberating the Drina Valley region."

 7             So is it fair to conclude at the time that this was drafted there

 8     weren't any plans to really take on the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa

 9     until the UN forces left?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, if we could go over to page 12 in the

12     English, it should be page 17 in the B/C/S.  Just a small point under the

13     Herzegovina Corps section where they are talking about specific plans,

14     and the naming of specific plans.

15        Q.   And it says, in the 7th paragraph down from what I'm reading,

16     that:

17             "By the end of March 1995, the Herzegovina Corps command shall

18     plan operations for reaching the Neretva river valley named Krivaja 95

19     and for coming out on to the coast ..." and it goes on.

20             Now, who was responsible for naming these operations?  In this

21     case it looks like clearly the Main Staff.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, we all know, and I think that you do, that the name of the

24     operation to separate the Zepa and Srebrenica enclaves and reduce them to

25     urban areas was named Krivaja 95.  So do you know who would switched the

Page 28348

 1     names from this Herzegovina Corps title to actually giving this Krivaja

 2     95 on to the Srebrenica operation?

 3        A.   I can't answer your question.  I don't know.

 4        Q.   But it would have to be somebody in the Main Staff, I would

 5     think.

 6        A.   I don't know.  The document may be signed only by the person

 7     who -- the document may be altered by the person who signed it, and the

 8     signatory of the document is the Supreme Commander, Karadzic.  A

 9     subordinate officer is not allowed to alter anything in his superior's

10     documents.

11        Q.   So if General Zivanovic as he was, in his staff at the Drina

12     Corps, were beginning the operations and the planning - and I should say

13     General Krstic as well - in let's say June, they couldn't just pick

14     Krivaja 95 without getting Main Staff approval, could they?

15        A.   The approval of the person who signed the directive in the first

16     place.  This is the person that they should ask approval from.

17        Q.   Well, the Drina Corps wouldn't go directly to the president's

18     office, would they, in that request?  Wouldn't they follow the chain of

19     command, put their request through; or maybe they are getting it fed down

20     to them from the Main Staff.  I understand you weren't there at that time

21     period but ...

22        A.   That should not have been the case.  However, I remember that on

23     television President Karadzic, and I will paraphrase his words, it

24     impossible to quote him.  He said he had issued an order to

25     General Krstic who had planned the whole thing, and he commended him for

Page 28349

 1     good planning of the whole thing.  That's more or less how I heard it on

 2     television.  And according to the rules of subordination, they should not

 3     skip one person in the chain.  They should not go one step above without

 4     the knowledge of their immediate superior.

 5        Q.   So if General Miletic is involved in drafting and sorting out

 6     these different names for the operations which must be crucial important,

 7     General Miletic should have been involved in the changing of the names

 8     whether it be Karadzic or General Miletic?

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Objection, there is no foundation

11     for this question.  The Prosecutor only assumes, speculates, without

12     providing any foundation.  So far the witness has not told us anything to

13     this effect.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's just a question based on all of his

16     testimony and logic that if General Miletic is and the operations unit

17     has drafted this part; and obviously we can see made very careful

18     consideration about names, that when a name change occurs on a plan

19     involving the corps that the drafter of those names would be involved

20     somehow in the name change so that it could be distributed throughout the

21     Main Staff and other corps so there would be no confusion.  That's the

22     question --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- if he can't answer, he can't answer.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

Page 28350

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We agree 100 per cent with your reasoning,

 3     Mr. McCloskey.  Let's revert back to you, Mr. Obradovic.  If you can

 4     answer the question, please, go ahead and answer.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this may also be a

 6     sign of a lack of discipline and unfairness of the corps command towards

 7     their first immediate superior command.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's go on.  Do you know lieutenant-colonel -- at

 9     the time Lieutenant-Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic?  He was commander of the

10     Bratunac Brigade.

11        A.   I met him only when he arrived in the command of the East Bosnian

12     Corps.  This may have been even after the war, I don't know when exactly.

13        Q.   He was a career JNA officer, wasn't he?

14        A.   I know what he looks like.  I know him personally, but I believe

15     that I met him in the command of the East Bosnian Corps.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   And I don't know when this was.  I believe that it was after the

18     war as I've said.

19        Q.   Do you know at what rank he retired, assuming he's retired?

20        A.   I believe that he was a colonel when he retired, if we are

21     talking about Slavko Ognjenovic.

22        Q.   Okay, I ask you because in on the 14th of July he made a report,

23     it's 65 ter number 3177, basically to the members -- to report to his

24     brigade members.  And he made a comment to them remarkably similar to the

25     comment that we saw in Directive 7.  He said:

Page 28351

 1             "There will be no retreat when it comes to the Srebrenica

 2     enclave.  We must advance.  The enemy's life has to be made unbearable

 3     and their temporary stay in the enclave impossible so that they leave the

 4     enclave, en mass, as soon as possible, realising that they cannot survive

 5     there."

 6             So aside from what I just read to you and what you read in

 7     Directive 7, have you heard this idea, this goal, this thought, in these

 8     very particular terms?  Have you heard of it, and at your stay in the

 9     Main Staff or in the VRS?

10        A.   No, nothing like this.

11        Q.   Just a coincidence?

12        A.   I would not wish to speculate.

13        Q.   Okay.  And I'll withdraw that.  I'm sorry, I shouldn't ask that.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 3043.  This is Directive 7.1.

15     So let's trade again.

16        Q.   And as we recall, this is something that you said you did -- you

17     did read.  Is that the one that you read in August or September when you

18     looked at Directive 7; or did you look at it before?

19             And yes, take your time to look at it if ... so is this the one

20     that you've had the chance to see for the first time in August or

21     September 1995 like you've said before?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   All right.  And we see that this is dated on the 31st of March,

24     1995.  Directive 7 is dated 8 March 1995.  And if we go to the end of

25     this we see that this is also drafted by Miletic, but now we have the

Page 28352

 1     commander, Ratko Mladic signing off on this one.

 2             Okay.  Just a couple of things I want to check with you.  So

 3     let's go to the second page in the English and the second page in the

 4     B/C/S.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just the last line of kind of the -- what is the

 6     first numbered paragraph.  It says, as it describes a whole lot of

 7     brigades, basically, talking about the Muslim units, I think.

 8        Q.   And it says:

 9             "Other details of the intentions and possibilities of the enemy

10     forces are in Directive number 7, and the daily intelligence reports of

11     the VRS Main Staff."

12             So is it fair to say that when Miletic was assembling this,

13     drafting this, that he must have clearly read and known what was in the

14     signed version of Directive 7 when he was drafting this?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And in fact, under this "Tasks" part of it, the first line is on

17     the basis of the Directive number 7, the VRS has the task.  And so it

18     cites Directive 7 and then it gives more task and more particularity,

19     isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes, because the original document is Directive number 7 of the

21     Supreme Command.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  And let's go to page 4 in the English, it

23     should be page 3 in the B/C/S.  It's under number 4, but it's one of the

24     last big paragraphs before you get to number 5.

25        Q.   And it says:

Page 28353

 1             "Other forces of the VRS shall contribute to the conduct of

 2     Operation Sadejstvo 95 with the goal of operative strategic camouflage

 3     and correcting the operative tactical position by carrying out planned

 4     combat, battles and operations in accordance with Directive 7.  And

 5     active combat operations towards Bugojno, Travnik, Kladanj, Olovo, and

 6     Vares, and around the Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde enclaves and the Bihac

 7     Pocket."

 8             So now we have this saying that combat operations should happen

 9     around the Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde enclaves.  What do you think

10     that means?  And it's citing in accordance with Directive 7.

11        A.   It implies that at a certain moment, and it says the moment is

12     withdrawal of UNPROFOR, to -- for operations towards the enclaves to be

13     planned.

14        Q.   So do you see a reference to the withdrawal of UNPROFOR in this

15     document, or are you just taking it from Directive 7?

16        A.   From Directive 7 where it actually says so.  In this document no

17     references made to the UNPROFOR withdrawal.

18        Q.   All right.  That's your interpretation.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next page, 5, in English; and it

20     looks like it should be B/C/S 5 as well.  And it's paragraph 5.3, and

21     we're at the Drina Corps section.

22        Q.   It says -- well, I won't read the whole thing.  Well, I might as

23     well:

24             "The Drina Corps:  Prevent an enemy break through along selected

25     operative tactical axes with persistent defence and active combat actions

Page 28354

 1     on the northwest part of the front and around the enclaves, and tie down

 2     as many enemy troops as possible through diversionary actions and

 3     operative tactical camouflage measures."

 4             Okay, we've talked about a similar reference, so I don't want to

 5     go into most of this.  I just want to ask you about this term,

 6     "Diversionary actions."  That means sabotage action, doesn't it?  Going

 7     into the enclave and conducting sabotage.

 8        A.   Well, there is no reference to sabotage here.  Shall I read it

 9     back to you, will you allow me to do that?

10        Q.   Let me ask you, I've heard the 10th Sabotage Detachment referred

11     to as the 10th Diversionary Detachment, and I've heard the words used

12     interchangeably.  So that's what I'm asking you about.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment before you answer the question,

14     Ms. Fauveau.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think there is a mistake in the

16     translation.  I would like the witness to read this in B/C/S and make

17     sure we can check the translation.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objection to that?  I suppose not.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, he's got it front of him.  I think that's

20     important.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  But we need to know, too.  Especially if there is

22     an alleged error in translation; we know we have need to know if that's

23     correct and where it is.

24             Which is on the screen we have the English and the French -- and

25     the B/C/S.

Page 28355

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   What's a diversionary action I think --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Fauveau.

 4             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think the

 5     witness can understand what the Prosecutor is saying.  I think it's

 6     important that the witness reads 5.3 in B/C/S --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 8             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] -- so that everything is clear.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So we have 5.3 in B/C/S in front of us.

10     I would assume that the witness has it too.  We could actually have just

11     the B/C/S on the screen, and we zoom in that part of the document.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, its just the last line, basically.  And --

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Last line of which of those paragraphs?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The last line of --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the comma, Your Honours.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- 5.3.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Perhaps the witness can read it out

18     aloud and we can have a translation of it or interpretation of it.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says here:

20             "Demonstrative actions and application of measures of operative

21     and tactical masking to tie up as much of its force."

22             So the word is "demonstrative" not diversionary, so this is not a

23     real attack but just to demonstrate in order to tie up as much of their

24     force.  It is not a diversion but a demonstration.  And also operative

25     and tactical masking measures are ordered in order to cover up the real

Page 28356

 1     intention so as to leave the enemy with an impression that an attack

 2     would follow soon, so this is the intent of the measures of operative and

 3     tactical masking and demonstrating force.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Yet we might have had a translation problem there,

 6     General.  But let me ask you what I was getting to.  Surely you've heard

 7     of the famous incursion by the 10th Sabotage Detachment through the

 8     tunnel into the Srebrenica enclave in early 1995?

 9        A.   I am not aware of the detail of those activities, but I know.  I

10     have heard of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

11        Q.   Well, I am sure you have given its a Main Staff asset, but have

12     you heard of their operation when they went into the enclave through that

13     tunnel?

14        A.   No, I am not privy to the details.  I know that there was the

15     10th Sabotage Detachment which was tied to the intelligence

16     administration.

17        Q.   Well, you say you're not privy to the details, but have you heard

18     anything about the 10th Sabotage going into the enclave in 1995 before

19     the Srebrenica operation?

20        A.   No, I did not hear anything about that.

21        Q.   All right.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 7 in the English, page 7 in the

23     B/C/S, just a quick question about something in the engineering support

24     section of this important document.  And it's the -- 6.4 is the number of

25     the paragraph where the engineering support is.  And the last line of

Page 28357

 1     that second paragraph.

 2        Q.   It says:

 3             "The VRS Main Staff will approve mines and explosives for

 4     erection of obstacles and for demolition in response to specific demands

 5     and availability."

 6             So did the -- this is correct, I take it, the Main Staff actually

 7     watched very carefully and wanted -- or required -- excuse me, required

 8     approval before people used explosives for the demolition in response to

 9     specific demands and availability?  So explosives for demolition were a

10     very carefully controlled item by the Main Staff; is that correct?

11        A.   The first paragraph here, under 6.4 speaks about the focus of

12     engineering support, and that should be to safeguard the movement of the

13     units.

14             And the second important thing is to fortify the achieved lines.

15     Also, a references is made to particular attention to be paid to opening

16     pass through our own obstacles and so on and so forth.  And as for what

17     you have asked me, it says here that the Main Staff will approve

18     explosive -- explosives for these -- for the engineering support.  The

19     personal tactically in charge is the head of engineers in the Main Staff

20     of the -- of the Main Staff of the VRS.  He's the one who worded this

21     bullet point 6.4 about the engineering support of combat activities.

22        Q.   Okay.  But it means what it says, the Main Staff has to approve

23     demolition materials in response to various -- or specific demands?  It

24     means what it says, right?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 28358

 1        Q.   Okay.  Sir, it's the position of the Prosecution that there

 2     became a -- a real demand for demolition material, probably right around

 3     the time you got there on 17 July, because somebody - maybe you can tell

 4     me - blew up every mosque that was in Srebrenica, and dropping a minaret,

 5     so it hits the dome takes a lot of skill if its done right.  Same thing

 6     happened in Zepa; it took a lot of demolition equipment.  Clearly, with

 7     major operations to blow up these big buildings, the operations branch

 8     would have known about it, correct?

 9        A.   The person in charge and the person who is the one recording all

10     the mines and explosives is the chief of engineers of the Main Staff of

11     the army of Republika Srpska.  What were the tasks underlying the request

12     for demolition materials and explosives, I don't know; I wouldn't be able

13     to tell you.

14        Q.   General, you are not going to put the blowing up of the mosques

15     on the chief of engineers, are you?  Is that what you're saying, he's the

16     one responsible for this?

17        A.   Your Honours, I am not blaming anybody.  I am not putting down

18     responsibility on anybody.  I am just telling you what I know.  We are

19     talking about bullet point 6.4 which was defined and provided to the

20     administration for operations and training the chief of engineers.

21     That's who did it.  As for mines and explosives and demolition materials,

22     these are all things that are operatively monitored by the chief of

23     engineers.  The decision as to what facility will be blown up and when is

24     not his.  I didn't -- I never said that he was the one who said to blow

25     up things, but this is within his purview, and the resupply of the

Page 28359

 1     explosives and demolition materials is his call upon requests received

 2     from subordinated units.

 3        Q.   Do you have any information whatsoever who was involved in the

 4     operations to blow up the mosques of Srebrenica and Zepa?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  You haven't finished.  How much more do you think

 7     you require?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One second, Mr. President.  Let me take a look at

 9     my binder.  I will need another hour.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  So, as I expected, Mr. Obradovic we

11     haven't finished.  We will continue tomorrow.  And same advisory as last

12     time.  Please don't discuss the subject matter of your testimony with

13     anyone between now and tomorrow morning, at 9.00 when we are to

14     reconvene.  Thank you.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16                           1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the

17                           18th day of November, 2008, at 9 a.m.