1 Friday, 5 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: First of all, we are sitting pursuant to
7 Rule 15 bis this morning, for the time being. Judge Stole had a personal
8 problem to attend to. He will be with us later on, hopefully.
9 Madam Registrar, that being the case, could you call the case,
11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This is the case number IT-05-88-T, the
14 Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am.
16 All the accused are here. The Prosecution today is represented
17 by Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Vanderpuye and Ms. Soljan. Amongst the Defence
18 teams, I notice the absence of Mr. Nikolic, Ms. Nikolic, Mr. Josse and
19 Mr. Haynes.
20 All right. Madame Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 WITNESS: SLAVKO KRALJ [Resumed]
23 [The witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examination by Ms. Fauveau: [Continued]
25 Q. Were the organs in charge of civilian affairs within the corps
1 supposed to keep a record of humanitarian aid going to territories under
2 Muslim control, including the enclaves?
3 A. Yes. It was their duty to record what passes through the
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D836.
6 This is an order from the Main Staff or, rather, a notification from the
7 Main Staff, dated 22nd of July, 1994.
8 Q. At the very bottom of page 1, we see the following. Could we
9 have the bottom of page 1 in B/C/S, please. In that very last paragraph,
10 we see that the Command of the Drina Corps must urgently gather, arrange
11 and submit the overview of humanitarian aid delivered to Srebrenica, Zepa
12 and Gorazde for the month of July, July 1994.
13 I'm interested in what we can find at page 2 of this document,
14 page 2 in the B/C/S version and in the English version. In the very last
15 sentence, we read that when building material comes in, the Main Staff
16 has to be informed immediately by calling phone number 249. Why was
17 building material of such importance?
18 A. The construction material was important because it could have
19 been used besides its basic main purpose for building fortifications
20 which could have been used for military purposes.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D907.
22 This is a notification from the Main Staff, dated 28th of May, 1995.
23 Q. At the bottom of the page, we see that two tons of cement have to
24 go through for Srebrenica. This is related to a Swedish project. Do you
25 remember that Swedish project?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. In 1995, was that Swedish project --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could Ms. Fauveau repeat her question? The
4 interpreter has not understood the question.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madame, they have a problem. If you could repeat
6 your question, please. Thank you.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you remember whether the Swedish project continued in 1995 and
9 if material, aid and various equipment were delivered to Srebrenica as
10 part of this project?
11 A. Yes, the materials were given for Srebrenica.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait until the English
13 translation is over before she begins her question in French. Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Kralj, the interpreters are having a problem,
15 and this is mainly caused by you jumping straight in to answer the
16 question before they have finished translating. If you could allow for a
17 short interval, please, before you start your answer. That's number 1.
18 The other thing, the same applies to you, Madame Fauveau. You're
19 doing exactly the same, and if you could please make the adjustment
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
22 Q. This document is dated 28th of May, 1995. We all know that on
23 the 25th of May, NATO planes bombed Republika Srpska. During that period
24 and immediately after the bombing, were convoys still passing? Do you
25 remember that?
1 A. After the air bombardment, the convoys were stopped for a period
2 of time, without announcement to the Main Staff of the reasons why they
3 were suspended.
4 Q. Do you know who took the decision to suspend the convoys during
5 that period?
6 A. We were told that this was a decision by the UNPROFOR Command.
7 The information was based on the information from the intelligence
9 Q. Did the army of Republika Srpska and the Main Staff receive
10 information with respect to the use of humanitarian aid delivered to the
12 A. The Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska had reliability
13 information that a part of the humanitarian aid was being delivered to
14 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina that was in the enclaves, and this was
15 done through some separate channels.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D1360.
17 Q. This is a document coming from the Ministry of Defence from
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from the department of that ministry in
19 Srebrenica. This is sent to the Tuzla
20 list of the quantities of food and fuel that were delivered to military
21 formations or units that were located on the Srebrenica territory in
22 1995, in March 1995. We see that there was 18 tons of flour, 6 tons of
23 beans, and so on and so forth. Could you have a look at the last
25 [In English] "... that the above quantities were allotted from a
1 consignment of humanitarian which arrived in this area through the UNHCR,
2 and this is the only source of supply."
3 [Interpretation] You stated that you had information related to
4 the use of humanitarian aid by the army. Were you aware that such
5 quantities were involved?
6 A. I didn't have precise information. I had information about the
7 kind of article we are talking about, but the authorised services had
8 some adequate quantities or commensurate quantities for their sources.
9 We knew that that was the way to supply them, through the UNHCR, so this
10 is why we stepped up our checks, and also with the appropriate
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D955.
13 This is a similar document, but a document that relates to the month of
14 May 1995.
15 Q. We see that the military units at Srebrenica received 25 tons of
16 flour, sugar as well. And in the third paragraph:
17 [In English] "We wish to note that the above quantities have been
18 separated out of the humanitarian aid contingent which arrived in the
19 area through UNHCR, while some of the food was obtained from the Dutch
21 [Interpretation] You stated that you had information related to
22 the UNHCR. Were you aware of the fact that the Dutch-Bat, which was in
23 Srebrenica, were you aware that the Dutch-Bat provided food to the Muslim
25 A. Your Honours, yes, that information was known to the Main Staff.
1 The quantities were not disclosed to the section, and that is why
2 controls were stepped up and a planned supplying was required for. And
3 on the basis of that planned supply, the estimates were made as to how
4 much exactly that battalion required. And then from the quantity that
5 they received, they would set aside one part for the needs of the B and H
7 Q. You stated that within the corps, a record was kept of the
8 quantities of cargo that was going through. I'd like to show you
9 Exhibit 5D952. This is a list of goods delivered to the enclaves in
10 Eastern Bosnia
11 in April 1994, 229 tons of flour were delivered.
12 I know that at the time you were not at the Main Staff. You
13 arrived at the Main Staff in November. But at the beginning of 1995, did
14 you notice a change in the quantity of goods authorised by the
15 Main Staff?
16 A. The Main Staff's policy was to let through to the enclaves as
17 much material and as many articles as were really needed, because it was
18 geared to supply the units that were in the protected areas; and the
19 focus was on materials that could be used for military purposes, like
20 building materials, tinned food, and different other supplies. I'm not
21 able to give you the precise information.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D953.
23 Here we have the quantities of goods delivered to the enclaves in March
24 and April 1995. This is a document coming from the Command of the
1 In the first four columns, we are dealing with March, and the
2 next columns relate to April. I'm not going to go into a detailed
3 analysis of this document. I think the figures speak for themselves. We
4 have the figures for flour for Srebrenica in March and April.
5 Q. The only question I have about this document is whether there was
6 a change in the policy related to authorisations delivered by the
7 Main Staff or by the coordination body was changed.
8 I think my question has not properly been translated. Was such a
9 change noticed in March 1995?
10 A. The procedure was the same. Nothing was changed unless there was
11 some particular intelligence data that any specific material was expected
12 and its possible use of -- and its possible use for military purposes.
13 As for the procedures, the policy was the same, and that was that
14 humanitarian convoys had to be allowed to go through and checked in the
15 way that they were checked up until then, and allowed unimpeded access.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
17 further questions.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much, Ms. Fauveau.
19 Mr. Zivanovic.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No questions for the witness, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
22 Mr. Ostojic.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: No questions, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
25 Mr. Bourgon?
1 MR. BOURGON: No questions, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Lazarevic?
3 MR. LAZAREVIC: No questions, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Sarapa?
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
6 MR. SARAPA: No questions, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Vanderpuye. Shall we make an effort to finish
8 with this witness today?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'll do my best to finish with
10 him today.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Please. Otherwise, we will make you do.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good morning to you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Same to you.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to my
15 colleagues, and good morning to you, Mr. Kralj.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
17 Q. My name is Kweku Vanderpuye, and on behalf of the Prosecution,
18 I'm going to put some questions to you in relation to your direct
19 examination by my colleague. If I ask you any questions that are unclear
20 to you, please let me know, and I'll do my best to try and rephrase it or
21 ask it in a way that we can better understand one another.
22 Now, you first arrived at the Main Staff in the beginning of
23 1995; is that right?
24 A. Your Honours, I said that I arrived in late 1994, on the 3rd of
1 Q. Okay. And you remained working at the Main Staff throughout July
2 1995, at least; right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And, of course, you know the accused in this case
5 General Miletic?
6 A. Yes, I do know General Miletic, and I am aware of the fact that
7 he's accused here.
8 Q. All right. And you know that he's charged with very serious
9 crimes before this Tribunal; right?
10 A. Actually, the entire indictment is not clear to me, except for
11 the part that relates to the humanitarian function.
12 Q. All right. Well, I just want to know if understand whether or
13 not he's charged with serious crimes.
14 A. I don't understand that he's accused of serious crimes. In my
15 reparation for the testimony, I focused only on humanitarian aid, what
16 was in the domain of the work of our section.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. From your knowledge, do you know what
18 he is accused of?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know, from
20 newspapers, radio, television, what was available to the public.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And what was available to the public that you
22 became aware of?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he's charged for violating the
24 conventions of war and the customs of war, and preventing humanitarian
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's enough. Let's move forward, please.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. You also know General Gvero; right?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And you know both Generals Gvero and Miletic in your professional
6 capacity, as you worked with them in 1995; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you know either of them on a personal level as well?
9 A. I don't understand your question.
10 Q. Do you know them outside of your professional association with
11 them during 1995?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, during the course of your duties in 1995, it's fair to say
14 that you spoke to both of them on numerous occasions?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you corresponded with them as well on numerous occasions;
18 A. In a way, yes.
19 Q. And the same goes for General Tolimir as well; right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And you worked for the sector for relations with international
22 organisations or foreign forces?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And your immediate supervisor, you said, was Milos Djurdjic. He
25 was the chief; right?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And he reported directly, I think you said, to General Mladic.
3 A. For a time. Later on, to General Milovanovic.
4 Q. Now, could you tell us a little bit about your unit? Tell us,
5 for example, who worked in connection with foreign relations or relations
6 with international organisations at the Main Staff?
7 A. Receiving information, and all contacts went through our office.
8 And when they requested that a meeting be held, meetings were held with
9 UNPROFOR at the level of the appropriate chain of command, which means
10 that the commander of the Main Staff met with the UNPROFOR commander; the
11 Chief of Staff of the army of Republika Srpska met with the UNPROFOR
12 Chief of Staff. Colonel Djordjevic [as interpreted], at his level, met
13 with the coordination body or the UNPROFOR office at Pale. I was in
14 contact with them if somebody called on the phone and spoke English, and
15 then I would relay the instructions as to what needed to be done, or I
16 would forward that call to the appropriate person.
17 Q. You mentioned -- or it reads in the transcript, just so we know,
18 you mentioned Colonel Djordjevic, or that's how it reads. Is that
19 correct, or is it actually Colonel Djurdjic?
20 A. Colonel Djurdjic. It's a mistake.
21 Q. And can you tell us a little bit about Radislav Pandzic?
22 A. I did know Colonel Radoslav Pandzic at the time, and we were
23 often in contact on the topic of the over-flights of helicopters over the
24 protected area, and controlling the helicopters, which was done at the
25 sports grounds in Sokolac.
1 Q. Now, obviously, based on your direct testimony, General Mladic
2 had to do with dealings with UNPROFOR, as did General Milovanovic,
3 Tolimir, and General Miletic. Can you tell us who else was involved in
4 dealings with UNPROFOR or international organisations in the Main Staff?
5 A. There were some commissions, such as the Commission for
6 Frequencies, and this commission involved Colonel Babic. Later on, there
7 was the mine removal commission, de-mining mission, but that was at a
8 lower point. At one point, as regards road maintenance, the chief of
9 engineers was in contact with UNPROFOR on that issue, Mihajlo Djurdjevic;
10 he was a colonel.
11 Q. Is that it, as far as your recollection is concerned in -- well
12 let's say between January and July of 1995, in terms of dealing with
13 UNPROFOR or UNPROFOR related matters in the Main Staff?
14 A. That's as much as I remember.
15 Q. And I think you said yesterday when you transferred from the 1st
16 Krajina Corps to the Main Staff, initially you were utilised as an
18 A. Not only at the beginning, but throughout my tenure in the
19 Main Staff, I was primarily an interpreter, and working with humanitarian
20 organisations was a sideline, as were other activities.
21 Q. All right. And you took on additional activities during 1995,
22 and you said at page 29256 of the transcript that you became familiar
23 with all of the procedures relating to the cooperation with UNPROFOR and
24 other international organisations. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes, I do remember that.
1 Q. And as part of your function, you assisted Colonel Djordjevic
2 [sic] you prepared -- I'm sorry, Djurdjic, and you prepared required
3 documents in his absence that were related to convoy requests; that's
4 true, isn't it?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. What kind of documents are you talking about?
7 A. Those were requests filed by UNPROFOR to allow passage through
8 VRS-controlled territory. The documents would come from their office at
9 Pale to the office of Colonel Djurdjic. The documents would then be
10 examined. The Serb and the English versions of the text would be
11 collated, and any errors that may have been caused by bad communications
12 would be rectified, or in some cases the text was illegible, and then the
13 documents were submitted for the information and approval of either
14 General Mladic or General Milovanovic.
15 And once they gave their approval or made some remarks, the
16 documents were further processed in the typing pool. That was under my
17 control. And then the documents were again taken to
18 General Milovanovic - that was the regular procedure - for his signature.
19 And then they went back to -- they were sent back to the UNPROFOR office,
20 using our communications equipment, to the corps that actually had to
21 take action; in other words, carry out the checks.
22 Q. Well, I thank you for that explanation in procedure, and I
23 apologise if my question was a bit inartful. When I said what documents
24 were you talking about, I was referring to the documents you prepared,
25 because that's what you stated in line 10 at page 29256 of your testimony
1 yesterday. So when you say you prepared documents, can you tell us what
2 specific documents you prepared?
3 A. So we dealt with those requests, as I have already described.
4 That's number 1. Number 2, letters came in from the chief of the
5 UNPROFOR Command and from the UNPROFOR Command. Sometimes they were in
6 English, and sometimes they were in both languages, and then the two
7 versions had to be compared, checked, and draft replies based on what
8 Generals Mladic and Milovanovic had said, their comments. And then the
9 reply would be taken back to the generals for their comments and
10 approval, and then it was sent back to the UNPROFOR office. That's what
11 I meant.
12 Q. Okay, thank you. And when you received these documents, and
13 specifically I'm referring to requests, convoy request documents from
14 UNPROFOR, you would eventually pass them up the chain of command; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And in some cases, not only Colonel Djurdjic but you, yourself,
17 made certain recommendations regarding the disposition of those requests;
18 isn't that true?
19 A. We provided appropriate information, information that had been
20 sought about some kinds and quantities of goods that had passed through;
21 and we had documents signed by UNPROFOR and by representatives of the
22 army of Republika Srpska as to what the procedure was and what had been
23 agreed in those documents, and this is what we brought up, what we warned
24 about. So we didn't make any proposals to limit anything or to deny
25 permission for anything. We simply brought up the existing documents
1 that had been signed by UNPROFOR and by appropriate representatives of
2 the Main
3 Q. All right. You've mentioned the term "we" on several occasions,
4 and if you could, just tell us who you mean by that.
5 A. I'm referring to Colonel Djurdjic and myself, because we dealt
6 exclusively with those requests.
7 Q. When you get these requests, you'd review them; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you'd look at each specific individual request that you
10 received from UNPROFOR; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And before you passed it up the chain of command, you'd write
13 down on the specific request "yes" or "no"; right?
14 A. Your Honours, no, we did not write either "yes" or "no" on the
15 requests. Those who approved the requests would put the "yes" or "no" in
16 the upper right-hand corner. It would be written there either by
17 General Mladic or General Milovanovic.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could have 65 ter 4001 in e-court, please.
19 I do apologise to the Court. We don't have a particular translation for
20 this document, but I think we can have the witness explain for sufficient
21 purposes what it is.
22 Q. Could you explain to the Court what this document is, what type
23 of a document it is?
24 A. Your Honours, it is a document that was sent on the 25th of
25 February, 1995, to the UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo. On the basis of the
1 requests sent by the UNPROFOR Command, we informed them that we have
2 approved the passage of UNPROFOR convoys in the Republika Srpska
3 territory as follows. And then the convoys are listed. Convoy
4 number 26, 30802 from Kiseljak to Sarajevo and back. The date is the
5 26th of February, 1995. Then the convoy number 26, 316/02 from Kiseljak
6 to Sarajevo
7 so on and so forth, and all the way down to item number 10 or, rather,
9 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kralj. If we could just page down so he
10 can see the signature on this. Do you recognise that signature, sir?
11 A. This is the signature of General Milovanovic.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we could go over to page 2 in this
14 Q. Now, you see some markings right in the center at the top of the
15 page and to the left of where it says "UNPROFOR, Glavni Stab Sarajevo."
16 There is a circle with the word "da" written in it, and then there is a
17 symbol next to that. If you could tell us -- if we could just blow that
18 up so everybody could see, that would be better. Yes, maybe a bit
19 bigger. That would be good.
20 Can you see that, Mr. Kralj?
21 A. Yes, I can see that.
22 Q. And whose initials are those to the right of that circle?
23 A. The initials are those of General Ratko Mladic. It is also his
24 handwriting. So "da" is written in his hand, and so is the circle around
25 the word "da," yes.
1 Q. Now, if we could go over to -- well, let's go to the next page.
2 Now, on this page you can see a circle and a symbol next to it, and the
3 word "da" written in the circle. Do you see that, Mr. Kralj?
4 A. Again, as the previous document, this is the initials -- these
5 are the initials of General Mladic.
6 Q. If we could go to page 12. It should be ERN 7783. Okay. Here
7 we see a circle with the word "da" in it next to a larger circle with the
8 word "nee" in it, and it's crossed out with a question mark. And to the
9 right of that, there is some writing. If that can be blown up so
10 Mr. Kralj can see that, the writing part. Is that it? Thank you.
11 Can you read what that says, Mr. Kralj?
12 A. In this document, somebody returned the document to me to check
13 why "no" was written there. Somebody had already gone through the
14 document, and apparently this was not General Mladic or
15 General Milovanovic, because they would have put their initials and
16 indicated "yes" or "no." So somebody had gone through this document, the
17 document that I had not submitted for examination, but it was then
18 returned to the office so I could see what this was all about. And after
19 it was verified that everything was all right, the document went through
20 the normal procedure and the word "da" was put there. I can't tell you
21 who actually approved the document, because there are no initials here.
22 There was no reason, however, to deny permission. So this word "no" was
23 crossed out and a question mark was put there.
24 Q. Who could have crossed it out and sent it back to you?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer if you know. I don't want you to speculate,
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you who it was.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that's not what I meant. I didn't tell
4 you, "Tell us if you know who sent it, and don't tell us anything if you
5 don't know who sent it." The answer is this -- or, rather, the question
6 was: Could you indicate a list of people who could have possibly sent
7 you this? Who would they be?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps the duty manager or
9 administrator, because he was superior to the duty officer who was in
10 charge of gathering all the mail that had to be submitted to General --
11 that went up to General Mladic.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE:
13 Q. What does it say on this document to the right that's written
14 with the question mark following it?
15 A. It says: "Kralj, why not?"
16 Q. And you have no idea who would have sent that to you; by name, in
18 A. I don't know, because this document pertains to military
19 observers and there is a rotation of interpreters, so this is not
20 controversial at all. It was always approved.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me intervene a little bit here.
22 Do you remember this document at all?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Could we have 65 ter 4006, please.
2 Q. First, do you recognise this particular letter? We can zoom out
3 a little bit so you can see the whole first page, but it might be a
4 little easier for you to read the title and perhaps maybe the first
5 paragraph to orient yourself to this document.
6 Do you remember this document, Mr. Kralj?
7 A. Yes, I do recall the activities that are related to this
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could go I think to page 2.
10 It should be ERN ending 8047.
11 Q. What I'd like to do is direct your attention, sir, to the
12 handwritten portion on the bottom of this letter, and let us know if it's
13 large enough for you to read it. Are you able to read that, sir, or
14 should we make it bigger?
15 A. Well, it is large, but it's illegible.
16 Q. Well, you can see at the very beginning it's directed to you.
17 That's your name; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it addresses you as Lieutenant Kralj; right? Or
20 Lieutenant-Colonel Kralj?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: While we just started with this witness, could you
22 please ask the witness if he remembers this document at all?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. Do you remember this document, Mr. Kralj?
25 A. I said before I remember the contents of the document, but I
1 don't remember the document.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. This document was processed by Colonel Djurdjic in cooperation
4 with Colonel Pandzic.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: What you've just stated a few seconds ago, namely,
6 that you remember the contents of the document, but not the document
7 itself, does that apply also to the previous document about which I asked
8 you, whether you remembered it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This applies to this document.
10 Documents like this one that affected the airspace or violations of
11 airspace were something that we were regularly informed about, and these
12 documents, after they went into the processing procedure, were archived
13 also at our section. We monitored what was happening. So here what
14 happened was that somebody ordered me to do this; and it was processed by
15 Colonel Djurdjic, in cooperation with Colonel Pandzic, who was in charge
16 of helicopter flights and those issues. Often, the document would be
17 processed in a different organ, but because this was work with the
18 UNPROFOR Command, the document was archived with us.
19 JUDGE KWON: If we zoom this up for the witness, he may be able
20 to read it. Let's give it a try.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the handwritten piece.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, it's the handwritten piece.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think it can be zoomed a little bit further.
25 To the right, yes.
1 Yes. You have the original which you can show him. Probably it
2 will be a little more legible.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Hopefully, the original is on its way. We don't
4 have it just now.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Kralj.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says in the first sentence:
7 "Lieutenant-Colonel Kralj, study this letter," meaning the letter has
8 already been drafted and then is being given to me to review it. I
9 didn't take part in the drafting of this document.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. Okay. I appreciate that, but you did study it, didn't you?
12 A. Yes, yes. It says "give it back" or "return it," but then I
13 cannot see it anymore. But I am familiar with the contents.
14 Q. Okay. And you were directed to do that by Colonel Djurdjic?
15 A. This is what Colonel Djurdjic said. This is his remark at the
16 bottom, for me to look over this letter. Probably he was planning to be
17 absent for a period of time, so in case it was necessary, he wanted me to
18 be informed about it. But this is the first time that I am seeing this
19 type of document.
20 Q. All right. And on the bottom right -- the bottom right corner of
21 this document, you can see Colonel Djurdjic's signature; is that right?
22 A. That is his signature, and that was his remark, for me to
23 familiarise myself with this particular document as well as the procedure
24 on how this kind of document is done.
25 Q. All right. And just for the record, the signature that is
1 immediately below the name of Manojlo Milovanovic, that is
2 General Milovanovic's signature, isn't it?
3 A. This is General Milovanovic's signature. You can see that
5 Q. Now, I just wanted to clarify something with you, just so that I
6 understand you clearly. It's your testimony that you never actually
7 wrote anything on any of these request documents that were received from
8 UNPROFOR; right?
9 A. Well, I cannot be certain, but I didn't decide for anything to go
10 out. I could have given some sort of remark or observation in terms of
11 the regulations pertaining to that information.
12 Q. When you say you could have given a remark about that, do you
13 mean that orally or do you mean that in a written sense, because my
14 question is whether or not you wrote anything on these types of
16 A. Most often, the copy that is going to the archives indicated as
17 A/A, unless this was indicated earlier. It was put on the archive
18 document that that copy would be going to the files.
19 Q. Okay. And that's what you would write, "A/A," and nothing more
20 than that?
21 A. Nothing more.
22 Q. All right. But you did receive a fair number of these documents
23 coming back your way; right?
24 A. Yes, yes, we did.
25 Q. And that's why you were able to recognise immediately the
1 signature of General Mladic, the signature of General Tolimir, the
2 signature of General Milovanovic, the signature of Radoslav Pandzic. You
3 were able to recognise all those signatures because you were very
4 familiar with the signatures on these documents that came back your way;
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have 65 ter 4039 in e-court, please.
8 All right, thank you very much. If we can jump two pages forward.
9 Q. Can you tell us whose signature that is, sir, that you see next
10 to the circle where it says "da"?
11 A. This is General Tolimir.
12 Q. And you're sure about that, sir?
13 A. I am sure that it's not Mladic and not Milovanovic.
14 Q. So you have no idea whose signature that is; is that what you're
15 telling us, sir?
16 A. This signature is questionable. I cannot really say whose it is.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's take a look, please, at 65 ter
18 4028. All right, thank you for that. If we could just go one page
19 forward, 65 ter ending -- I'm sorry, ERN ending 7146.
20 Q. Do you recognise -- it's just as well. Do you recognise the
21 symbol that is depicted there on the right, where it is indicated
22 "UNPROFOR"? It's on the right top side of this document.
23 A. It's General Mladic's initials.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Could I just see the top of this
25 document, so I know which page I'm on. All right. We can go to page
1 ending 7150. It should be two pages forward. Page 6, thank you.
2 Q. Now, if I could just direct your attention to the handwritten
3 portion, and immediately beneath the handwritten portion, you'll see a
4 slash and a symbol. Can you tell us whose initials those are?
5 A. I'm not sure about these initials.
6 Q. All right. These are the ones next to the slash beneath the
7 writing. You're not sure what the initials are to the right of that
8 slash; is that what you're saying, just so I'm clear?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we could, could we have 5D1404 in
12 Let's just go back to the other document. That was 65 ter 4028,
13 and it was page 6 of that document.
14 Q. All right. Can you tell us what the handwritten portion of this
15 document says? And if you can't, let us know and my colleague will read
17 A. I would just like to have this read to me. It's not clear to me.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right, we'll to that. Thank you, sir.
19 MS. SOLJAN: [Interpretation] "No, but this should be seen by Toso
20 and Gvero. There is no need for the officer to be at the DK, but think
21 about where he would be if to --" and I cannot read the last word and the
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Picking it up from Judge Kwon, do you
1 think if we blew up the last part, you would be able to read it,
2 Ms. Soljan? Let's blow it up, because otherwise you can't give us an
3 answer. Yes.
4 Does it help you better now? All right, let's see if the witness
5 can manage instead. Yes, Mr. Kralj.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am -- I am trying to read. If
7 you can give me just a little bit more time.
8 I cannot read it, but I can see that this is General Mladic's
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. Where do you see General Mladic's signature, sir?
12 A. Underneath the last word in the sentence.
13 Q. Okay. And beneath that, where the forward slash is, and you can
14 see some writing, can you tell us whose signature that is or whose
15 initials those are?
16 A. This is General Tolimir.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: And let's go up the screen, if we could.
18 Q. On the right of the screen, can you tell us whose initials those
20 A. I'm not familiar with this one.
21 Q. You can see on this document that it is directed towards Toso,
22 who you said yesterday was General Tolimir; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it was directed towards Gvero, who I think you said you knew
25 as General Gvero; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This document also has "A/A." I think that indicates it went to
3 the archives. Right?
4 A. Correct, the document is from the archive.
5 Q. Okay. And as best as you can see, is this handwriting directed
6 towards anybody besides Generals Tolimir and General Gvero?
7 A. You can see here that it was sent to Toso and Gvero. This is
8 legible, the first part of it, for their information.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you for that, sir.
10 If I could have a look at 65 ter 4036. All right, thank you very
12 Q. First, you can see this is from the Main Staff, and it's directed
13 towards the UNPROFOR Command. And if we could go to -- all right. If we
14 could just go down so you can see the bottom. Can you tell us whose
15 signature that is at the bottom of this document?
16 A. I can't say whose signature this is, but obviously it is not the
17 signature of General Milovanovic.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, thank you for that.
19 If we could go -- I think it would be page 4 on e-court. It
20 should be the ERN ending 6842. First, if we can go straight to the
21 bottom and blow up the signature at the bottom of this page. That's
23 Q. Do you recognise the signature at the very bottom of this page,
25 A. This is the signature of Lieutenant-Colonel Vlacic.
1 Q. Okay. Now, if we could go to the top of this document, first I
2 want to focus you, if I could, on the symbol next to the word "January"
3 or "Januar," and it's just outside the circle. Can you tell us whose
4 initials those are?
5 A. Here, where it says "yes," "da," that's General Tolimir.
6 Q. All right. Now, above that, you can see writing, just above the
7 circle, and the writing says "Gvero and Toso"; is that right?
8 A. Yes, it says "Gvero and Toso."
9 Q. And immediately above that, can you read what that says? And if
10 you can't, let me know and my colleague will give it another try.
11 A. I cannot read it.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Can we blow this up a little bit, please.
13 MS. SOLJAN: [Interpretation] "Let them go to Kiseljak, and then
14 from there by car."
15 [In English] "Gvero and Toso," exclamation point.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE:
17 Q. As far as you can see, sir -- first of all, as far as you can see
18 on the screen, is that accurate, with what was just read into the record?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And again we see these initials on the right on the top that in
21 the Latinic alphabet appear to be the "T" and the "H," just like the last
23 A. If it was in the Roman alphabet. Sometimes General Tolimir would
24 write his initials in the Roman alphabet, so I assume these are his
25 initials, but I'm not sure.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just his initials or also full sentences?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the whole
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. All right. Well, in the Cyrillic script, that letter that
8 appears to be a "T" is a "G", isn't it?
9 A. This is not correct, because the "G" only has the right side and
10 not the left side in the upper left-hand corner.
11 Q. Okay. Well, I appreciate that, and I appreciate the education.
12 This document and the writing you see in front of you is only
13 directed to two people, isn't it; and one of those people is
14 General Tolimir, whose initials you've indicated on several occasions
15 during your testimony, and another individual whose initials you haven't
16 been able to indicate?
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
19 object to this entire line of questioning. The Prosecutor is not showing
20 the witness the document and the contents of the document, trying to use
21 this witness to state some assertions on account of my client.
22 What I would like to say, that he needs to show the entire
23 contents of these.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the whole question was whether that's a
25 "T" or a "G," and that's what -- or it was put to the witness that that's
1 a "G," and the witness is saying it's not a "G."
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I'm objecting to
3 this other part of the question, where he talks about people included in
4 the contents of this document, not only the interpretation of the
5 signature and all these other things; simply the entire line of this
6 questioning, because I'm asking for the Court's permission to
7 cross-examine this witness. When the document is shown to the witness, I
8 would like him to be shown the contents of the document, whether he's
9 familiar with the document. From this document, you can clearly see that
10 they all refer to the ceasefire in 1995.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Big storm in a tea cup. Let the witness see the
12 whole document, unless he's already seen it, and then you proceed with
13 your questions.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Your request will be considered, if you still
16 maintain it later on, and we'll decide whether it's the case of allowing
17 you to put questions or not.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I understand that we're right at
19 the break.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are. Thank you.
21 We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
1 MR. JOSSE: My apologies for delaying the proceedings, Your
2 Honours. I had to ask for the witness to stay out of court, because as
3 is apparent, he speaks very good English.
4 I would really like to develop, if I may, not for very long, the
5 observation and objection that Mr. Krgovic raised immediately before the
6 break. We sincerely hope that Your Honour is right and that this is a
7 storm in a tea cup, but sadly we are not sure. We would really like to
8 know where this line of cross-examination is going. We contend that it's
9 not proper for these questions to be asked, that this is an attempt yet
10 again to put more documents into this case which should have been led as
11 part of the Prosecution case. This is not a response to any evidence
12 that General Gvero has led, of course, and therefore that is a
13 consideration that should be at the forefront, we submit, of the
14 Chamber's considerations.
15 Yet again, a witness has been called by another party, and the
16 concentration of the Prosecution effort seems to be directed at our
17 client, at least at the very moment, and of course it raises again the
18 issue that I raised in Your Honour, the learned Presiding Judge's
19 absence, our right to further cross-examine these witnesses, and the
20 difficulty is any further cross-examination, were we to apply for it,
21 would not be and could not be one or two questions; it would need to be a
22 full-blown cross-examination into this area, but that's a distinct and
23 separate matter, which, for my part, I'm happy to examine at a later
25 At this point in time, we would inquire why these questions are
1 being asked, where the Prosecution are going, and what they're hoping to
2 prove by asking these particular questions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
4 Why you, Mr. McCloskey, and not Mr. Vanderpuye?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Because it's a policy question, based on quite a
6 bit more than just the witness, and --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but -- one moment, let me interrupt you.
8 Let's divide it into two parts, because one part is certainly not
9 a policy; he's just asking for Mr. Vanderpuye, what's the general purpose
10 of this line of questions and where he's heading, and then if you want to
11 address the question of whether you are introducing once more documents
12 which you could have dealt with during your case in chief, it's another;
13 and I would need to consult with my colleagues.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I also have a problem with Defence counsel asking
15 counsel, in the middle of a cross-examination, where cross-examination is
16 going. It's none of his business. It's his job to figure it out. We
17 always tell them, and we will tell them. That's not a problem, but it's
18 a fascinating question to get, and we will tell him it's not a mystery.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, we still consider it a storm in a tea cup,
21 in spite of what you've both stated. Our position is a very simple one,
22 Mr. Josse and Mr. McCloskey. Later on, if it's the case of you still --
23 and when I say "you," it's you, Mr. Krgovic or whoever, still maintaining
24 an interest in cross-examining the witness, we will consider such a
25 request at the right time.
1 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, if I could persist for one moment.
2 I don't mean the last witness, the one before that, I objected to
3 a document and was told that I should have objected to the document at
4 the time it was introduced and before the witness had attested to it; and
5 that's what we're doing now. We're trying to stop this off -- head this
6 off at the pass, so to speak.
7 We submit that these questions should not be asked, that this is
8 improper. In fact, I mean, I could develop it further. I was hoping I
9 might get a response from the Prosecution. We say it's outside the scope
10 of the indictment, in fact, if one looks at paragraphs 50 and 51 of the
11 indictment. This is outside the period in relation to humanitarian
13 We also submit that these documents should have been part of the
14 Prosecution case.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but that you have submitted already. And the
16 fact that we have answered you the way we have means that we do not
17 entertain your submission as a valid one in this particular circumstance,
18 so that I think we've made that clear.
19 MR. JOSSE: I understand.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So later on you will have every opportunity to
21 cross-examine the witness, if you still do wish to do so.
22 MR. JOSSE: And will the Court ever entertain an objection on the
23 basis that a line of questioning is improper, too late, should have
24 happened earlier, falls outside the scope of the indictment? Because if
25 not, we won't make the objection again. I'm not here to waste the
1 Court's time.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a very compound question. You don't need to,
4 Mr. McCloskey, you don't need to. It's a very compound question which we
5 are not bound to answer, because we've made it clear that we deal with
6 each case as it arises and depending on the circumstances pertaining to
8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: It might be helpful, Mr. President, these
11 materials, we in July went by this Banja Luka archive, which is this
12 thing which has been developing over the years, and whenever we look into
13 it or go by, it has some different or new materials in it. So we found
14 all these Main Staff materials, and we gave them all to the Defence.
15 This was back, I don't know, July/August. They're disclosed on
16 25 July. So they couldn't have been part of our case. They're the kind
17 of things that come up years and years after the war. They've been
18 provided to everyone. They clearly had Gvero's name on it and others on
19 it, and that's the history of that. And if there's more particular
20 information that you would like us to say, I'm sure Mr. Vanderpuye is
21 better qualified.
22 MR. JOSSE: If I may say, that's very, very helpful to know that.
23 Of course, it illustrates how completely defenceless we were in the
24 situation, bearing in mind this is not our witness and we have, as yet,
25 called no witnesses.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: This is precisely why we've made ourselves clear
2 that at the end of the Prosecution's cross-examination, there is still a
3 request for further cross-examination on your part, we will entertain
4 that request.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, clearly the Miletic team is
6 taking full advantage, as much as they can, of these documents, and
7 Gvero's name is all over them. So this late -- I don't understand how
8 they've been taken advantage of.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, still it's a storm in a tea cup, according to
10 us, so try not to stir it too much, Mr. McCloskey, because it will spill
12 So Mr. Vanderpuye, we need to get the witness first, but do you
13 wish to add anything? Okay, that you.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Kralj, we had some issues to discuss which have
16 got nothing to do with you, obviously, but I would suggest things looking
17 as they are at present, that if you really want to go home for the
18 weekend, that you try to restrict your answers, keep them as short as
19 possible. Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll be here and return to finish your
20 testimony on Tuesday.
21 Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Good morning to you again, sir.
24 If I could have 65 ter 4015 in e-court, please. I'd like to show
25 you this document.
1 All right. This is a letter, and you indicated, I think a little
2 earlier this morning, that some of the documents you prepared or handled
3 in the course of your duties included letters. And you can see this is a
5 If we could go down -- or, rather, to the second page. If we can
6 go down, we can -- 7057 ERN, if we could go to that page. Okay.
7 We can see that this is all signed by Robert Gordon. Are you
8 familiar with that name, first of all, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is this the type of document that you would handle in your
11 duties back in 1995?
12 And can we go back to the front page, please, so that he can take
13 a look at that. And if we can zoom out so he can see the whole page,
14 that might be helpful.
15 Well, just so the rest of us are aware, this is a -- it's a
16 letter, and it's regarding permission for a helicopter, and it's in
17 relation to the furtherance to the peace plan. I'm not asking you to
18 read the document. I just want to know if it's the type of document that
19 you've seen or handled during your duties in 1995, that's all.
20 A. I have not seen this document before.
21 Q. All right. Well, you can see that this document is directed to
23 from the date where it says "19 January 1995"?
24 A. That's what it says in the letterhead.
25 Q. All right. And the top of this document, you see those initials
1 that we've seen before that in the Latinic script appears to be "PH"
2 which we submit is a "G." You don't recognise those initials, do you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recognise any other initials on this document? And let me
5 just direct your attention to what I'm referring to, and that's written
6 right above -- well, if we could just blow up the right-hand side of this
7 screen. Do you recognise any of the initials on the right-hand side
8 where it appears to read "20.01"?
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't get a translation of the answer.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we did not hear the answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: First I heard the interpreters say that they did
14 not hear the answer. Then I heard the words, "I am not familiar." Was
15 that his answer? I take it that it was --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, yes, it was.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you, so that clears things for us. You
18 may proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye, please.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much.
20 Q. You don't recognise any initials that are indicated above where
21 it's written "20.01"? I just want to make sure that we're clear on that.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Now, this document indicates that it's to go to the 1st
24 Krajina Corps by fax, Herzegovina Corps by telegram, that's correct,
25 isn't it, and indicates the date 20th of January, "20.01"?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And those initials above "20.01" are General Tolimir's initials,
3 aren't they?
4 A. These are his initials, but they pertain to the text above the
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right, thank you for that.
7 If we could go to 65 ter 4000. Thank you very much.
8 Q. Now, you recognise what kind of document this is, don't you?
9 This is a document that's directed to the UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo
10 and it relates to the disposition of convoy request; isn't that right?
11 A. Well, the contents are quite clear.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. And whose signature is that, by the
13 way, on the bottom?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment before you answer that question.
15 Mr. Josse.
16 MR. JOSSE: I just want to be clear. This document and the last
17 one are not translated. I just want to make sure I'm not missing
18 something on e-court.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not.
20 MR. JOSSE: Obviously, I'm at a severe disadvantage here.
21 Obviously, Mr. Krgovic is able to read the document, and that's fine.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand they're being translated.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: They are in the process of being translated. I
24 apologise, I suffer from the same disability.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE:
2 Q. Could you tell us whose signature that is at the bottom, please?
3 A. All I can tell you, that it's not General Milovanovic's
4 signature. I cannot identify it. Perhaps if you zoom in.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we zoom in further, please. And further. It
6 should be sufficient, at least to see whether there is a "za" or not.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the upper left-hand corner, it
8 says "for," "za," and it looks like Pandzic's signature.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Thank you for that.
10 Q. Let me just ask: Colonel Pandzic was authorised to sign on
11 behalf of the Chief of Staff, right? These particular documents, I
12 should say.
13 A. At a certain point in time, where certain documents are
14 concerned, as the duty administrator, since there were no other people
15 around, he sought approval to sign a document, so he was authorised only
16 to sign a particular document, not all of them.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you for that.
18 And if we could go to page -- let me put the date of this
19 document on the record. It's 22 February 1995.
20 And if we could go to page 5 in e-court, please, ERN 7741.
21 That's right. And if we could just blow up the area where the two
22 circles are, written "nee" and "da." All right. And it refers to convoy
23 number 23-297/01, 21 February 1995
24 salt to the Sarajevo Airport
25 ice cleaning.
1 Q. Now, what I want to direct your attention to is immediately -- I
2 should say in between these two circles, you see what appears to be that
3 "TH" again, don't you; in Cyrillic, at least the letter "G"?
4 A. Well, to my mind, this is "Tolimir, Aleksandar," in the Roman
6 Q. What is it in the Cyrillic alphabet?
7 A. To the right, it says "why" [Realtime transcript read in error,
8 "Y"] in the Roman alphabet, and this is why I assume it is all in the
9 Roman alphabet.
10 Q. Let me show you the next page.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, it is not "Y," in the letter
12 "Y," but "why" as in for what reason.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let's just go to the next page. If we could
14 zoom in again. Thank you. This is ERN 7743, for the record, 774 -- all
15 right, 7743, for the record, then. And if we could blow up the same
17 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to the letters immediately
18 below where it's written "nee," followed by an explanation mark. That's
19 the same "TH," isn't it, or the same "G" in Cyrillic, isn't it?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
22 object to this line of questioning. The letter "T" is the same both in
23 the Roman alphabet and in the Cyrillic alphabet. This is not a
24 handwriting expert. The witness ask can ask him -- the Prosecutor can
25 ask him whether he can recognise the signature, but now to tell us
1 whether something is in the Roman or in the Cyrillic alphabet, I don't
2 think that this is appropriate.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe not for you, but I think Mr. Josse and
4 Mr. Vanderpuye are in the same position I explained earlier on; they
5 don't read the language, they don't know the language. So I think it is
6 a perfectly legitimate question. We'll see what follows afterwards, but
7 for the time being I think it is a harmless one.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE:
9 Q. Sir, these are the same letter we've seen on all of the documents
10 I've shown you, pretty much, until now, Cyrillic or Latinic; right?
11 A. The letters are slightly different. To me, it looks like
12 "Tolimir, Aleksandar," in the Roman or Latinic alphabet.
13 Q. Can you explain why you would see "Tolimir, Aleksandar," on a
14 document directing Toso and Gvero to look at a particular item by
15 General Mladic?
16 A. Tolimir, Aleksandar, was at the command post, the command post of
17 General Gvero's -- General Gvero's command post was several kilometres
18 away, and he was not able to see the documents unless they were sent by
19 mail. We didn't take the documents to Gvero so that he could have a look
20 at them.
21 Q. I showed you 65 ter 4010 and 65 ter 4028. All right, let me show
22 you 65 ter 4010. We need to go to page 6842, please. 4010, this is --
23 okay. Let's just do 4028 instead. Great. And if we could go five pages
24 up to ERN ending 7150. I suppose that would be page 6.
25 This is the document that I showed you earlier, and on this
1 document you identified the -- well, I should say the initials of
2 Zdravko Tolimir on the right-hand side. You remember that, don't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. And are you telling us that what is written on the
5 top right-hand corner is what you described as "T, Aleksandar"?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness
8 please be told to read what it says next to the signature, the word that
9 is next, the one that begins with "Tol," T-O-L, on the right-hand side?
10 And if the Prosecutor wants to, perhaps he can ask the witness to
11 check whether this is Gvero's signature or not, so that he stops beating
12 about the bush.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye. Forget about the beating
14 about the bush, but reading, I think, would help everyone. And then
15 I think the suggestion made by Mr. Krgovic, that you try to identify the
16 signature, would also be useful, if you want to do it. Otherwise, they
17 will do it on cross-examination.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I will happily do it.
19 I think I've gone over this document with the witness already, which is
20 why I haven't done it. I asked him about the "A/A," I asked him about
21 what was read, and I think my colleague tried to read this into the
22 record. So --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You are correct. This is the one where Ms. Soljan
24 couldn't read the last word, and the witness neither.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: And all I'm asking him at this point is whether
1 or not what is depicted in the top right-hand corner, the "G", at least,
2 in Cyrillic -- that's right -- whether or not that is what he described
3 just recently on the other document as "T," I think he said,
5 Q. Is that the same to you?
6 A. It looks similar, but there are some additional lines underneath
8 Q. And the two documents that I showed you, 4028 and 4010, I
9 believe, those were both documents -- well, this one, as you can see on
10 the right-hand side, you identified General Mladic's initials, and it
11 directs Toso and Gvero to attend to this -- to attend to this matter;
13 A. Yes, it says "Toso and Gvero," that's right.
14 Q. And it would make sense, would it not, that being directed to
15 attend to this matter by General Mladic, that they would attend to that
16 matter, and that would be indicated or consistent with them placing their
17 initials immediately near the direction. You've seen it during your work
18 in 1995. That's true, isn't it?
19 MR. JOSSE: Two questions there.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's right. Do you want to split them?
21 Otherwise, if the witness can answer both. The important thing is that
22 he realises that there are two questions in one.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. Do you understand the question or would you like me to rephrase,
1 JUDGE AGIUS: We're going too slow, Mr. Vanderpuye. Rephrase it,
2 please, and split it into two.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. It is consistent that officers in the Main Staff, when directed
5 to attend to a matter by General Mladic, as in this context that you've
6 seen, would place their initials on that document to indicate that they
7 have attended to it? You can answer that "yes" or "no."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And it is true on this document, 4028, that there are only two
10 officers to which this direction is indicated, and that would be Toso and
11 Gvero; right?
12 A. Yes, that's correct, but that doesn't mean that Gvero actually
13 signed it. Somebody could have signed this on his behalf, somebody from
14 his organ.
15 Q. Wouldn't that be indicated, sir? Wouldn't it say on the document
16 that it's being received or processed or handled by somebody other than
17 the person to whom it's directed?
18 A. Well, usually only the initials were put in of the person that
19 read the letter.
20 Q. And, in fact, on the circle -- above the circle, where it's
21 written "ne e," my colleague will read that to you.
22 MS. SOLJAN: [Interpretation] "I fully agree."
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. You recognise that, right, and you see, immediately following
25 that, those same initials?
1 A. It seems to me that these two initials are different, the one to
2 the left of the United Nations emblem, where it says: "I fully agree,"
3 and to the right of those two letters, "A/A," there is a similar sign,
4 and there it says: "Tol." So I assume that the initials that are higher
5 up are General Tolimir's, in the Roman alphabet.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have 65 ter 3999 in e-court, please.
7 Q. This is another document that is directed to the Command --
8 UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo
9 record number 06/17-192, and it also relates to the disposition of
11 And if we could just go to the next page ending 7722. Here we
12 see on the right-hand side of the screen the word "da" and we see those
13 same initials. We can agree on that; right?
14 A. The initials are similar.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: And if we can go to the next page, please.
16 Q. The same initials; right, sir?
17 A. As the previous one.
18 Q. All right. Now, we can go all the way through this document, and
19 I can show you this over and over again. I won't belabour the point.
20 If we could just go back to the beginning of this document so
21 that we can get -- have the witness identify the signature at the bottom,
22 that would be helpful.
23 Do you recognise that signature, sir?
24 A. Pandzic.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. If we could have 65 ter 4040 on the
1 record, please -- I mean in e-court. And if we could zoom out just a
2 little bit so we can see the whole thing. Thank you very much.
3 Q. This is a document that is dated 21 April 1995, and it also was
4 addressed to the UNPROFOR Command at Sarajevo. And the number on this
5 one is 06/17-361. Similarly, it is a document that refers to the
6 disposition of convoy requests.
7 And if we could just go to -- well, one page over, the ERN ending
8 8507. And if we could blow it up in the circle.
9 Do you recognise that, the initials that are there?
10 A. Tolimir, Aleksandar.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could go three pages forward
12 to the ERN ending 8510.
13 Q. Do you recognise what's written in here, sir?
14 A. Again, Tolimir.
15 Q. Now, this "Tolimir" which you've indicated looks a little bit
16 different than the one you indicated before; right? Should I --
17 A. Yes, in the Roman alphabet.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Now, if we could go over to the page
19 ending 8510.
20 MR. JOSSE: I can't find that in e-court.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's fascinating. I don't see it either.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that, Mr. Josse. Let's check,
24 Have we found it?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I think it managed not to find
1 its way into e-court. I have a hard copy of it. We can put it on the
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So just --
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I could go to a different page just as easily.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, go to another page.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we could go to 8515.
7 Q. All right. Now, you can see the "da" is written in Cyrillic.
8 The initials next to it, tell us what those are.
9 A. Well, again it looks to me to be in the Latinic and that it is
10 Aleksandar Tolimir.
11 Q. What is it in Cyrillic?
12 A. The same.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. I'd like to show you some other
14 documents, if I could.
15 I'd like to have 4065 in e-court, please. And I have an original
16 of this document that I'd like to show the witness as well.
17 And what we see here is another document that's directed to the
18 Command of UNPROFOR in Sarajevo
19 the signature. First of all, do you recognise that signature?
20 A. No.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Can we put this, please, on the ELMO.
22 Q. You have the original of that document before you. Would you
23 like to -- it's on the desk. Would you like to take a look at that?
24 Are you able to make that out, sir?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Have you ever seen that particular signature before?
2 A. I don't remember the signature.
3 Q. Well, if I were to tell you that it says "za, Miletic," does that
4 make sense in the context of this document to you, given your work in the
5 Main Staff in 1995?
6 A. Well, yes, it would make sense.
7 Q. You've never seen this signature before; that's what you're
8 telling us?
9 A. I said that I don't remember it. Now I see that it does look a
10 little bit like Miletic's.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show you 65 ter 3993, please. I
12 have an original of that one as well I'd like the witness to take a look
13 at. For the record, this is a Main Staff document. The number is
14 06/17-355, and it's also directed to the UNPROFOR Command, regarding
15 convoys. What I'd like to do is to focus down on the signature of this
16 particular document.
17 Q. Do you recognise the signature, sir?
18 A. I can read "Miletic."
19 Q. All right. If I could just go to the next page, please. Thank
20 you, I appreciate it. You have the original in front of the witness as
21 well. Okay.
22 Now, if we can take a look at this, you can see "da" circled, and
23 there's the letter "R."
24 A. Ratko Mladic.
25 Q. All right. And you're sure about that; right?
1 A. Pretty much.
2 Q. All right. Well, it looks a little different than the
3 "Ratko Mladic" you indicated before, and that's the reason why I ask.
4 Are you aware of whether or not Ratko Mladic used different initials to
5 sign off on documents?
6 A. There were some minor differences.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have 5D1310 in e-court, please. I just
8 want to show you what you identified as Ratko Mladic's initials when the
9 Defence counsel asked you the question. It will be page 2 of that
10 document. I don't know if it's possible to juxtapose the two, but I
11 would appreciate it if we could.
12 Q. Are these the minor differences you're referring to, sir?
13 A. Yes, that's that.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I'd like to, if I could, juxtapose a
15 different document against the one on the left, and the one I'd like to
16 put up is 3997.
17 All right. If I could, I also have an original of this document
18 I'd like to hand to the witness. Now, if we could just blow up the
19 bottom part, where it's written "R. Miletic."
20 Okay. Just so that the record is clear, this is 65 ter 3997, and
21 what it is is a handwritten Main Staff document, 038-96. It's directed
22 to the Zvornik Brigade, and it's written and signed by Radivoje Miletic.
23 And it's dated 16 June 1993
24 see it after, but what I'd like to do is focus in on that "R." And if
25 they could blow them both up, that would be helpful.
1 All right. What I think would be even more helpful is if we
2 could move the document on the left to page 8480.
3 Q. Now, between these two documents, you do recognise the one on the
4 right as General Miletic's handwriting, don't you?
5 A. I don't recognize the handwriting, but it does say "Miletic."
6 I'm not sure if this is his handwriting, though.
7 Q. Well, you have the original in front of you. If you want to take
8 a look at that, maybe that will help orient you. Are you able to work
9 out whose handwriting that is on the document you have in front of you or
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not able to.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
14 MR. JOSSE: Whilst I appreciate that this line doesn't appear to
15 directly affect our client, we submit that's not a proper question, "Does
16 the witness recognise the handwriting," work out, is an improper way of
17 putting it. He is not a handwriting expert.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but, I mean, he speaks American, you speak
20 Mr. Kralj, could you answer the question, please?
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: But I didn't hear it, because at the time I was
23 concentrating on what --
24 MR. JOSSE: Of course, it depends on how it's translated, but --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not able to hear. It seems that he is not able
1 to --
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, okay. Thank you for that, Mr. Kralj.
3 We can just focus on the document on the left. That would be
4 helpful. And we can zoom out a little bit, I think.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kralj, some minutes ago you testified -- you
9 said that this signature must have been the signature by General Mladic.
10 Having actually seen General Miletic's writing, whether it was written by
11 him or by another person, do you still stand by what you said, that this
12 is Mladic's signature?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, it looks a little bit as if
14 it could be that of General Miletic, but I'm not sure about it.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President -- Judge Kwon, thank
19 If we could go to the next page, 8481.
20 Q. There you see the letter "R"; right, Mr. Kralj? And I mean next
21 to the circle where it says "da." If you can't make it out, just let us
22 know and I'll move on.
23 A. No, I cannot tell whose signature it is.
24 Q. You can make out that it's the letter "R," though; right? And if
25 you can't make that out, let us know.
1 A. No.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Can we go to the page ending 8489, please.
3 Q. How about this one; can you make out that that's a letter "R"?
4 A. It could be the letter "R."
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, thank you for that.
6 If I could go to 65 ter 3983. All right. If we could zoom out a
7 little bit, maybe.
8 Q. This document is directed to the UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo
9 and it relates to a helicopter mission that was disallowed. Now, I can
10 see, obviously, the photocopy is very difficult to discern whose
11 signature that is. Can you recognise whose signature that is?
12 A. No.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. If we could go to the next page, please.
14 I'm sorry, page 4 in this document.
15 Q. You recognise the "R" that's written next to this encircled "da"?
16 A. It does resemble an "R."
17 Q. Well, does it resemble General Miletic's "R," to the best of your
19 A. I am not sure that that is it.
20 Q. You know, in your direct testimony, you said that there were
21 occasions when you had to actually seek out General Miletic's signature.
22 Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes, I do, but documents that were approved, that were supposed
24 to be sent back to the UNPROFOR Command or, rather, to the UNPROFOR
25 office in Pale.
1 Q. Okay. So you remember that you sought out his signature, you
2 remember that it was under the circumstances that those documents or
3 those items were already approved, and I've shown you two documents that
4 are originals, from which you can tell us with no degree of certainty
5 whether or not that's General Miletic's signature. That's true, isn't
7 A. That is correct. I didn't take the documents to General Miletic.
8 Perhaps it was Colonel Djurdjic or someone else. That's why I don't
9 recognize his initials.
10 Q. But you do recognise Tolimir's initials, and he's not here. You
11 recognise Mladic's initials, and he's not here. You recognise Djurdjic's
12 signature and initials. He's not here. You recognise Pandzic's
13 initials. He's not here. How is it that the only people whose
14 signatures that you don't recognise happen to be charged with the crimes
15 before this Tribunal, in this Trial Chamber?
16 A. I would like to ask Your Honours for the question to be repeated.
17 It is not clear.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right, I'll clear it up, because I realise
19 I'd misspoken.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE:
22 Q. You don't recognise -- well, let me ask you this. Let me ask it
23 a different way. Do you know what General Gvero's initials look like, as
24 he writes them?
25 A. I don't know, because I was not -- I didn't have the opportunity
1 to see such initials frequently.
2 Q. All right. Do you know what General Miletic's initials look
4 A. I don't know what the initials look like. But if I read
5 "Miletic" in the document that I brought to him, then I would note that
6 that was that.
7 Q. All right. Thank you for that, Mr. Kralj.
8 Let me show you 3984. Do you recognise the signature that's on
9 this page?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. Do you see the words "Za Nacelnik Staba"; do you see
12 those words?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who would that be?
15 A. Could you please scroll down the act so that I could attempt to
16 carry out identification in the upper left-hand corner?
17 Your Honours, this document is not registered or logged at our
18 office, and I'm not familiar with it.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could go to page -- well, the
20 next page. 7709, it ends. At page 2, sorry.
21 Q. Here we see an "R" on this document as well; right?
22 A. Yes, we can see the "R."
23 Q. Do we agree that that's not Mladic's "R"?
24 A. I cannot say that. I'm really not sure.
25 Q. All right. Well, I have quite a few documents like this, and I
1 don't think it would be fruitful to go through all of them, but I'd like
2 to show you just a couple of pages of a couple of documents and then
3 we'll be done with them.
4 Could I have 65 ter 3985 in e-court, please. Okay, great.
5 This is a -- this is directed from the Main Staff. It's directed
6 to the UNPROFOR, the Command at Sarajevo
7 you can take a look at this signature and see if you can make it out, but
8 I don't -- if you can't make it out, we'll just move on to the next page.
9 A. No.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could go to page 2 of this document,
12 Q. Really, just for the record, you can see that that's an "R" on
13 there, isn't that right, and that's immediately next to the encircled
14 "da" written in Cyrillic?
15 A. It resembles an "R" in the Cyrillic.
16 Q. Does it resemble the "R" that you saw in Miletic's signature, the
17 original that I handed you a little while ago?
18 A. I can't claim that.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you for that.
20 Can I have in e-court, please, 3986. This is another document
21 from the Main Staff to the Command -- UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo, and
22 of course it concerns the disposition of convoy requests, like the other
23 documents I showed you.
24 Q. If I could take you to -- can you make out the signature on this
25 page, by the way?
1 A. No.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just go to two pages up.
3 I think it should be page 3, and it should end 8424, the ERN number.
4 Q. What I'm directing you to is the encircled "nee" with the "R"
5 next to it. Do we agree that's an "R"?
6 A. Yes, I do see that.
7 Q. And is it, in your estimation, similar to the "R" that you
8 observed in the document I provided you that was an original written by
9 Mr. Miletic, General Miletic?
10 A. I cannot claim that.
11 Q. Okay. And I want to show you 65 ter 3985. I understand I've
12 shown that already. I'll show 3987 instead, please.
13 If you could, are you able to make out or identify the signature
14 that you see here?
15 A. No.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. And if we could -- just for the
17 record, this is also a document -- this is also a document from the
18 Main Staff. It's directed to the Command at UNPROFOR, and of course it
19 concerns the disposition of convoys.
20 Could we just go over one page, page 2.
21 Q. And you can see "da" written in Cyrillic, it's encircled, and
22 next to that is the letter "R", isn't it?
23 A. It's similar to the previous letters.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. 3988, please, in e-court. Thank
1 Q. Can you just -- can you make out this signature, sir?
2 A. No.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just zoom out. This is
4 also a document from the Main Staff to the UNPROFOR Command in Sarajevo
5 and deals with the disposition of convoy requests. And if we go over one
6 page --
7 JUDGE KWON: Before that, do you see a word "za" there,
8 Mr. Kralj?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: If we zoom --
10 JUDGE KWON: In whose name was this document written, Mr. Kralj?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stands in for the Chief of Staff,
12 on behalf of the Chief of Staff.
13 JUDGE KWON: And read the following line.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says: "Colonel
15 Radivoje Miletic," and the signature doesn't look like the signature that
16 we saw on a document where it states quite clearly that it's Miletic.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we could just zoom out a little
20 Q. And this deals with convoys that were not approved, and you can
21 see the numbers that are reflected here; 19-28/04, 19-234/04, 19-254/04,
22 and so on and so forth. Now, this document obviously went to the Command
23 in Sarajevo
24 would normally be issued to the corps in respect of the decision on the
25 convoy request.
1 If I could have 3989 in e-court. I think we have a translation
2 of this one, and it's page 4 in the English. It should be page 3 in the
4 And if you look on the right-hand side of the screen for you, at
5 the bottom, if we can move that to the middle more, you can see that
6 these same convoys, 19-228/04, 234, 254, 269, et cetera, was -- the
7 disposition was communicated to the corps. And if we could just go to
8 the last page for a moment. The B/C/S, if we can slide that over so we
9 can see the left side of the page.
10 You can see that that is type-signed "Colonel Radivoje Miletic."
11 You see that; right?
12 A. Your Honours, what I see is typewritten words: "Stands in for
13 the Chief of Staff, Colonel Radivoje Miletic," but I don't see his
14 signature. That doesn't mean that he actually signed this document.
15 Q. I appreciate that. But you spent a substantial amount of your
16 time in the VRS, at the Main Staff, handling exactly these same types of
17 documents; isn't that true, Mr. Kralj?
18 A. It is true, but I said very little, taking into account the
19 documents that were signed by General -- rather Colonel Miletic.
20 Q. Well, these documents that were sent down to the corps by
21 teleprinter, were they signed?
22 A. The previous document, in order to get to the teleprinter, had to
23 be signed either by Colonel Miletic or by somebody who was authorised to
24 sign such a document on his behalf.
25 Q. So it's not surprising to you that the teleprinted version of
1 what was sent to the corps isn't signed, is it?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you for that.
4 I think -- well, I'm told that it's the break time. If that's
5 suitable for the Court, I'd like to stop now.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Even I would like to know how much longer, but I
7 understood you to be approaching the end, from what you said earlier.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I think I can finish in
9 about a half an hour or so --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: And --
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- because I don't intend to go through this
12 exercise of identifying further signatures. But there are a substantial
13 number of documents, and I know that it's a consideration whether or not
14 those are put to the witness, in terms of the admissibility of the
15 evidence in this case. I'll talk to my colleagues about it, and maybe we
16 can work something out.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that, Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 And, Ms. Fauveau, will you be putting further questions in
19 redirect to the witness?
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm afraid so, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to be afraid. It's your right.
22 Mr. Josse?
23 MR. JOSSE: It would be Mr. Krgovic. He's indicated to me that
24 he's likely to want to ask at least one question, but we'll obviously
25 discuss it during this break, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And, Ms. Fauveau, how much time do you think
2 you will take to examine again your witness?
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] For the moment, just about 15
4 minutes, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Then there is a good chance that we will finish
6 with this witness.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we'll make an effort and make sure that we
9 finish with this witness. Thank you.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: During the break, I consulted, through Madam
13 Registrar, with the rest of the staff technicians and interpreters,
14 whether we could go beyond our time limit, and very kindly they all
15 accepted to do so, of course, within limits. So that's the position.
16 But that doesn't mean that you can go on and on and on and on. Thank
17 you. And I also wish to thank the staff, the interpreters and the rest,
18 for their kindness. Thank you.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President, and good
21 I put up a document before the break. It was 3983. And we've
22 just received the originals of the documents that we had mentioned
23 earlier, and I just wondered, if I could show this one to the witness,
24 maybe he could clarify. And if we could, we could have the 3983 in
25 e-court, just so it's clear which document I'm talking about. We should
1 put it on the ELMO, perhaps. Okay, thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Kralj, have you had an opportunity to look at this document,
3 and are you able to see that it says "Za Komandant, General-Pukovnik
4 Ratko Mladic," and underneath there is a signature, and that is
5 General Miletic's signature, isn't it?
6 A. I don't know this signature.
7 Q. Okay. Let me show you just one other document, and I have the
8 original here for you to look at as well. Thank you. The --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order to save time,
11 I would like to state that we do not challenge that this signature is,
12 indeed, General Miletic's signature.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you for that. So you can move ahead,
14 then. Thank you.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Thank you to my colleague as well.
16 Q. Now, during your testimony, on your direct testimony you spoke
17 about humanitarian aid to the enclaves at some length. And it is the
18 case that you received information from the corps commands concerning the
19 disposition of convoys, international aid convoys; that's true, isn't it?
20 A. The question is unclear again. Could you please clarify a little
22 Q. When you testified on your direct examination by my colleague,
23 you spoke about humanitarian aid. You remember that, humanitarian aid
24 going into the enclaves, just so we're clear?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And in connection with that testimony or during that testimony,
2 you mentioned that you would receive reports at the Main Staff concerning
3 the disposition of convoys; that is, convoys going in and out, delivering
4 humanitarian aid in the enclaves?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, during the period of time between January and July of 1995,
7 you were aware that the humanitarian situation inside the enclaves of
8 Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde was deteriorating; right?
9 A. Do you mean whether I knew or the Main Staff?
10 Q. Well, let's start with you.
11 A. I merely had some information that humanitarian aid was being
12 delivered to the BH army. Now, as for the details about the situation in
13 the enclave, this was not something that I followed and this was not part
14 of my job.
15 Q. All right. Let's move to the second half of that question, then,
16 and you asked whether you knew or the Main Staff. Tell me what it is you
17 know about what the Main Staff knew concerning the situation in the
18 enclaves between January and July of 1995.
19 A. I only know some of the information that pertained, and that were
20 available to me, that pertained to the movement of the convoys. I was
21 informed through official channels about that. As for any other
22 information, it was not available to me.
23 Q. Well, in respect of the information you received concerning the
24 movement of the convoys, were you informed that convoys, in fact, weren't
25 getting through to the enclaves to deliver international aid?
1 A. There was some information as to whether the convoy that had been
2 approved actually went through or not, and those who had not been
3 approved could not even come to the check-point, because the UNPROFOR
4 Command or the UNHCR were notified that convoys had not been approved and
5 then the convoys didn't even set off.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have 65 ter 4053, please, in e-court.
7 We don't have a B/C/S translation of this document yet, so I will read it
8 to you, Mr. Kralj.
9 I'm told that you're fluent in English, so let me just direct
10 your attention to where it is, I'd like you to focus.
11 This first of all, for the record, is a restricted code cable,
12 and it was directed to the attention of Mr. Annan at the United Nations.
13 It's dated 6 July 1995
15 if I could, is page 5. If we could have that in e-court.
16 And what page 5 shows is the distribution versus requirement
17 concerning UNHCR food distribution in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it covers a
18 period from January 1993 through May of 1995. In articular, I wanted to
19 focus you on January 1995 on down. So if we could move downward on this,
20 we can see that more clearly, if we could blow it up.
21 What this shows is in January of 1995, that the metric ton
22 requirement for the distribution by UNHCR of food within
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina was 22.957 tons, which exceeded --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Fauveau. Sorry to interrupt this, but
25 usually Ms. Fauveau doesn't stand up if there isn't something.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I should have maybe waited for the
2 end of the question, but I want one thing to be clear. I don't think
3 it's challenged. This list also includes Bihac and Sarajevo. It's not a
4 list that relates specifically to the enclaves.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's right, it's for Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 just as it reads in the title.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. Okay, let's proceed. You haven't
9 finished your question, as far as I am concerned.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct. Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. The required amount was 22.957 metric tons in January of 1995.
12 The amount that was distributed exceeded that, at 24.865 metric tons.
13 And you can see, on the right -- far right-hand column, there's an
14 indication of the percentage of requirement accomplished is indicated, in
15 January of 1995, at 108 per cent. In February 1995, that figure fell to
16 83 per cent, which was followed by another decline to 77 per cent in
17 March 1995. In April 1995, that figure was 80 per cent, and in May 1995,
18 it was 58.2 per cent.
19 Then if I could just turn the page, that would be page 6 in
20 e-court, what you see on this page is, as indicated in the title, is
21 "Deliveries versus targets for the month of June 1995," and in this
22 particular document we do have a delineation of the target for the
23 particular enclaves, effectively Zepa and Srebrenica.
24 And for Zepa, you can see that the amount that was delivered was
25 50 metric tons, and the target was 678 metric tons. And I'm not a very
1 good mathematician, but that comes out to somewhere around 7 per cent.
2 For Srebrenica, you can see for the month of June a delivered
3 amount of 230 metric tons and a target of 772 metric tons, which comes
4 out to around 28 per cent.
5 Now, to the extent that your job in the Main Staff dealt with
6 relations with international humanitarian organisations such as UNHCR,
7 and UNPROFOR, and Medecins Sans Frontieres, were you aware of these
8 particular circumstances as concerns the humanitarian condition in the
9 enclaves during the months as I've indicated just now?
10 A. I'm not familiar with the situation in the enclaves. I mean,
11 some things were known like that from the media, but I was not privy to
12 this document.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could show you 65 ter 432. We need 65 ter
14 432, please. Okay. I think we have an English translation for this.
15 This is the -- well, this is a combat report from the 2nd Corps of the
16 army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's dated 6th July 1995
17 and it's indicated -- it indicates a time of 1700 hours. And what I'd
18 like to do is refer you to the second page of both documents. Under
19 point 4, which refers to the humanitarian situation, it reads:
20 "The situation continues to be exceptionally difficult. The food
21 convoy announced for today has not arrived. Elderly and weak persons are
22 in an exceptionally difficult situation due to starvation. The first
23 people to die of hunger in the area of Srebrenica after the
24 demilitarisation were registered today. I request that every effort be
25 made to deliver food to our area."
1 Q. Now, in relation to this document and the one I just showed you,
2 that was 65 ter 4053, were you aware that the aid, the food going into
3 the enclaves, was steadily decreasing between March and July of 1995?
4 A. No, Your Honours. I participated in the processing of documents,
5 but I did not follow the situation from the analytical aspect. This is
6 something that was done by Colonel Djurdjic to the required extent. This
7 document is not familiar to me.
8 Q. I understand that you're not familiar with the document,
9 Mr. Kralj, but I'm asking you whether you are familiar with the fact that
10 less and less material, less and less aid was going into the enclaves.
11 And you were in a position to know whether or not aid was being approved,
12 whether or not aid was being blocked; so that's my question, not whether
13 or not you're familiar with the document.
14 A. Could you please clarify this question a little bit?
15 Q. All right. I'll try again.
16 The document that I showed you before, it was the UN outgoing
17 cable, and I described to you the figures of UNHCR food distribution to
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then in particular to the enclaves of Zepa
19 and Srebrenica, where it indicates in the month of June that roughly
20 7 per cent of the food aid target was met for Zepa and roughly
21 28 per cent was met for Srebrenica. And I showed you a document which is
22 a combat report from the 2nd Corps, and in that combat report it
23 indicates that people had begun to die of hunger in the area of
24 Srebrenica. And what I'm asking you is whether you were aware that
25 during the course of the months that I've gone over, from March through
1 July 1995
2 enclaves. Were you aware of that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If you were directed by your commander or by Dr. Karadzic to
5 restrict aid to the enclaves in order to make them dependent on the
6 will -- on the goodwill of the Serbs, would you do it?
7 A. Your Honours, this is a hypothetical question. As a
8 humanitarian, I would ask for additional explanation.
9 Q. Let me explain it to you further, then. If you were asked to do
10 that in order to make it unbearable and hard for them to live in those
11 conditions, would you do that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And why not?
14 A. That is not in accordance with my knowledge about international
15 law, the duties and the attitude or relationship towards the civilian
17 Q. And are you aware that an order -- a directive precisely to that
18 effect was issued in March of 1994 -- 1995, I'm sorry.
19 A. I am not familiar with that order.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Bear with me for one moment, please.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. VANDERPUYE:
23 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Kralj: Have you heard what I'm going to
24 read to you, which is:
25 "The relevant state and military organs responsible for work with
1 UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations shall, through the planned and
2 unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits, reduce and limit the
3 logistics support of UNPROFOR to the enclaves and the supply of material
4 resources to the Muslim population, making them dependent on our
5 goodwill, while at the same time avoiding condemnation by the
6 International Community and international public opinion"?
7 Does that sound familiar to you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And that's a directive you wouldn't follow, is it?
10 A. What I am saying is that the directive did not reach me, because
11 the president -- the president's correspondence does not reach the lower
12 levels in written form, and I don't have information about it.
13 Q. Maybe there was a translation error, but my question was: You
14 wouldn't follow that directive, would you?
15 A. I would warn the one who would be issuing such a directive of the
16 consequences. In our army, orders were not executed blindly. If
17 something was unclear, there was the option of asking for additional
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I have my answer. Thank you, Mr. Kralj.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 Ms. Fauveau.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Will my colleagues cross-examine
23 the witness before me or after me?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Usually, they would have -- anyway, I'm not really
25 much concerned about this, because as I understand, Mr. Krgovic at best
1 or at worst would only have one question. So I would suggest you
2 proceed. If a question he asks then prompts some further questions from
3 you, I think we will consider your request.
4 So let's proceed.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Re-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to show the witness P4036.
8 Could we have page 6 of the document, please. Could we show the very top
9 of the document, what is on the left-hand side. No, sorry, the other
10 side. Yes.
11 Q. Witness, are you able to read what is written here, what you have
12 on the screen in front of you, what is handwritten?
13 A. Yes: "Pursuant to the commander's approval."
14 Q. And on this part of the document, nothing is written in Cyrillic,
15 is it?
16 A. What I have just read is written in the Roman script.
17 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P3987.
18 I would need to see page 3 of the document.
19 Q. You were asked about this letter "R," letter "R," which you see
20 now on the screen. Is it in Cyrillic script or in Latin script?
21 A. If it's an "R," then it is in the Latin script, because the rest
22 of the writing to the right is in the Cyrillic script.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
24 of his answer?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreter didn't catch the last part of the
1 witness's answer.
2 Mr. Kralj, what we have in the transcript is the following:
3 "If it's an 'R,' then it is in the Latin script, because the rest
4 of the writing to the right is in the Cyrillic script."
5 Did you say anything else, apart from that.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Below the words "da," what is
7 written in the Cyrillic is "Ograniceno," "restricted."
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
9 Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown, at the
11 bottom of the page, what appears at the bottom of the page.
12 Q. Can you see the word in the circle on the right side of the page,
13 bottom right corner?
14 A. I can see "60, no."
15 Q. And this "nee" is written in Cyrillic script, isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Just under, you have initials. Do they look like the "R," which
18 there is at the beginning of the document?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Today, you've been shown many documents concerning the passage of
21 convoys. Does one of these documents concern convoys of humanitarian
22 organisations, one of them, just one of them?
23 I shall repeat my question. Among the documents you've seen
24 today for the requests for passage of convoys, were there any requests
25 for humanitarian convoys?
1 A. You're not specific. I would like to ask you whether
2 humanitarian assistance convoys also include UNHCR convoys and as well as
3 those of the Doctors Without Borders.
4 Q. The notifications you've seen today, did they concern the HCR
5 convoys or the UNPROFOR convoys?
6 A. There were both.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 5D1411.
8 Mr. President, while we wait to see, could we go in private
9 session, please.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Sure. Let's go into private session for a short
12 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now. Thank you.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You were asked questions about restrictions of humanitarian aid
23 from March to July. Here, we have data from January to May 1995, and
24 although it's not very legible, the first column speaks about Bihac,
25 Gorazde, Srebrenica, and the fourth, Zepa. During the period from March
1 to May, concerning Srebrenica and Zepa, can you see any restrictions?
2 To help you, in March 1995 Srebrenica received 482 tons in April,
3 and 560 in March. Concerning Zepa, in March, it was 112; in April, 104;
4 and in May, 180 tons.
5 A. Are you talking about monthly quantities or some kind of
7 Q. I think the document speaks for itself, when you look at the
8 quantities. Can you see any restriction imposed or any decrease of the
9 help, of the aid?
10 A. If I see "May 1995," and --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is your objection related to the question?
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then go ahead.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 What it relates to, in particular, is the definition of "aid,"
16 because what I see here is "aid" star, and I can't see what that refers
17 to. Usually an asterisk will indicate some qualification with respect to
18 the term that's indicated, and my colleague hasn't led that yet, so
19 that's the reason I'm objecting to the question.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are you in a position to know what that
21 asterisk qualifies? Okay. Then you will deal with it, Madame Fauveau.
22 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I think if you look at the bottom of the document, it is
24 indicated to see who are the donors.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness probably doesn't.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Governments from the European
2 Union, international organisations, nongovernmental organisations, and
3 also organisations belonging to the United Nations family, HCR,
4 organisation of the OMS, WHO --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: And UNICEF. Let's proceed.
6 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] -- and UNICEF. Perhaps it's not
7 necessary that I insist on the form of question I asked.
8 Q. Here what one can see is that the aid given to the enclaves
9 starting from June 1994 until May 1995. As you may see, what is darker
10 are the enclaves in Eastern Bosnia, and what is more clear is Bihac.
11 Seeing this diagram, can you say who received more aid, Bihac or
12 the eastern enclaves?
13 A. Looking at this document, the enclaves in Eastern Bosnia were
14 much better supplied, perhaps by even 56 per cent more, in my estimate,
15 just off the top of my head.
16 Q. My last question: Do you know by which territories the aid was
17 delivered to Bihac, in general?
18 A. It was supplied through the territory of the Republic of Croatia
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci, Madame.
20 Mr. Krgovic.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to put
22 one question relating to document P4015, which was shown to the witness
23 today and whose contents were not shown to the witness today, in view of
24 the fact that the document is only in the Serbo-Croatian language. So I
25 just wanted to put a question in relation to that document. P4015.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's hear the question first. But do you
2 wish to add anything to what you've stated already, or what?
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, just for the witness to read,
4 because the Prosecution mis-labelled this document as a document where
5 approval is sought for over-flights, whereas the actual contents of this
6 letter, the sense of this letter is completely different. This is not --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not understanding me. I intervened because
8 the practice so far has been that before you put any questions, you
9 explain to us the nature or the substance of your question, and then we
10 decide whether to go ahead or not.
11 Now, reading the document, for the time being, is not a problem,
12 but we need to know the answer. And by us telling the witness to go
13 ahead and read the document doesn't mean that we've allowed the question.
14 So if you could tell us what the question is, then we can decide.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question is only
16 whether this document pertains to the implementation of the peace
17 agreement in Bosnia and Herzegovina in January 1995. That's the only
18 question that I want to ask. And General Gvero was involved in the
19 implementation thereof.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, then go ahead. Proceed, please.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
22 Q. Mr. Kralj -- could you please scroll down this document. Could
23 you please read, if you can, out loud the part that begins with: "Dear
24 General Gvero," and ends with the words "... and these are as follows,"
25 out loud, please.
1 A. "Dear General Gvero.
2 "You have invited me to make a record in writing of my concerns
3 and the demands for the improvement of the implementation of the peace
4 process in my sector in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they are as follows:"
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kralj, you know that in December 1994, a
6 ceasefire was signed and that all hostilities were to cease in Bosnia
8 the implementation of the agreement of the ceasefire. This specific
9 document, does it pertain specifically to this event and those
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
13 I don't have any further questions for this witness.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.
15 Judge Kwon, do you have any questions? Judge Stole?
16 Judge Prost?
17 Okay, I thought you had something to say, Mr. Vanderpuye. It
18 seems it's not the case.
19 So, Mr. Kralj, you've been very patient with us. We've kept you
20 here for a few days. On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you
21 for having been kind enough to come over and give testimony as a Defence
22 witness for General Miletic, and on behalf of everyone here I wish you a
23 safe journey back home.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 What's your preference, Ms. Fauveau and Mr. Vanderpuye? Do you
3 wish to deal with the documents now or leave it until Tuesday?
4 Ms. Fauveau --
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would prefer to adjourn it until Tuesday, but
6 before we do, I would like to ask my colleague Mr. Krgovic whether it is
7 the position of the Gvero Defence that the initials that are indicated on
8 the document he just presented to the witness are, in fact, those of
9 Mr. Gvero.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Josse.
11 MR. JOSSE: Well, he's not going to get an answer to that now.
12 What a cheek, is all I can say, frankly; and he knows it. My learned
13 friend, Ms. Fauveau, may have made the concession, but we're not going to
14 without considering the matter fully. He ambushes us with documents and
15 has the effrontery to ask us that type of question at 10 to 2.00 on a
16 Friday afternoon.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to say that these things happen
18 especially happen on Friday, towards the end of the sitting.
19 So let's adjourn.
20 MR. JOSSE: On a calmer note, could I make an observation? P4053
21 is already in evidence as 6D200.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
23 Mr. Ostojic.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 I just have a housekeeping matter that was brought to our
1 attention by the court staff relating to this particular witness, but on
2 September 11th, 2008
3 there were three exhibits that were shown to him that he actually marked,
4 and they wanted me to bring it to the Court's attention whether or not
5 they can be introduced into evidence.
6 I can share with you the number and the parties can contemplate
7 it, but I think they all said that they do not have an objection to it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I suppose once we are adjourning the sitting
9 to Tuesday and dealing with tendering of documents, make sure that you --
10 okay, I see Ms. Soljan agreeing. So those documents, I don't have the
11 references now --
12 MR. OSTOJIC: I do, if you'd like them.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you'd better give us the reference, for
14 the record.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. There's three of them.
16 The first one is IC 00-0214, and it appears on e-court at page 123. The
17 second document is IC 00-0215, e-court page 124. And the third document
18 is IC 00-0216, which appears on e-court at page 126.
19 Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you very much, Mr. Ostojic, and you,
21 Ms. Soljan.
22 We stand adjourned until Tuesday, Monday being a UN holiday.
23 Thank you. Have a good weekend, all of you.
24 Incidentally, just in case you're mixed up, although next week is
25 an afternoon sitting week, Tuesday we are sitting in the morning,
2 Okay, thank you.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of
5 December, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.