1 Tuesday, 9 December 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic, et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. Good morning, everybody. All
10 the accused are here. Prosecution today is Mr. McCloskey and
11 Mr. Elderkin. Defence teams I notice the absence of Mr. Lazarevic,
12 Mr. Josse, Ms. Nikolic, and Mr. Haynes. All right.
13 Any preliminaries?
14 Mr. Gosnell.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, I hadn't planned on standing up
16 before you, but since we have the occasion without a witness in the room,
17 I would like to take care of one housekeeping matter. That pertains to
18 the Trial Chamber's oral decision of 10 October 2008 concerning the
19 admission of a 92 bis statement by Petar Loncarevic, and we have
20 completed the formalities in relation to that statement. It has been
21 uploaded on to e-court as 4D644.
22 Thank you very much, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell, for that information.
24 Anything else? I saw Mr. McCloskey about to stand. Yes, he is standing
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: We had the last witness where I think we hadn't
4 done the documents.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but I --
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: So we're ready to do that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. That's not what I meant with
8 preliminaries. No, no. We still have got to deal with the documents.
9 Okay. No other preliminaries?
10 So, documents. We had admitted, I think, one document or two
11 documents, no? Or three?
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So, Ms. Fauveau.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Chairman, I sent the list of about
15 60 documents.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Then any objection? Go slowly if you're
17 going to object to several, please.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. There is one document that
19 did not have an ERN on it, but we don't have an objection to that. We
20 are looking a little bit more into it, but at this time we don't have any
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Other Defence teams, any
23 objections? We hear none. So all these documents are admitted.
24 Which one is it? Is it the last one, 5D1411?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: That last one --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay, all right.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- is part of a report, and we are tracking that
5 down and we don't have a problem.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
7 Madam Registrar, also, there are three at least that I can see of
8 those documents that have not yet been translated; and, consequently,
9 they will be marked for identification pending translation thereof.
11 There are no other Defence teams wishing to tender any documents?
12 Yes. Then we'll move to the Prosecution list. It has been circulated,
14 Any objections, Ms. Fauveau?
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci. Other Defence teams, any objection? None.
17 So all these documents are also admitted. I am not aware of pending
18 translations, as at least as it appears from that list. But while you
19 were cross-examining this witness, I think there were several documents
20 that had not yet been translated. These have all not yet been
22 So all those documents that have not yet been translated will
23 remain marked for identification purposes until they are duly translated.
24 Thank you.
25 Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,
2 Mr. President. Good morning, Judges.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
4 MR. BOURGON: I would just like to say for the record,
5 Mr. President, that our consent to the admission of these documents, of
6 course, is subject to the caveat of our motion, which is currently
7 pending before the Trial Chamber, concerning the documents adduced by the
9 Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Thank you. It goes
11 without saying, I mean, by now, after two and a half years, you should
12 have a familiarised yourself with our system. Okay.
13 So let's bring the next witness.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, to you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal. Before you start giving
18 evidence as a Defence witness, our rules require from you a solemn
19 declaration that you will be testifying the truth. That is the solemn
20 declaration that you have in front of you, please read it out aloud, and
21 that will be your undertaking with us.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
25 You are going to be asked some questions by Mr. Petrusic for General
1 Miletic, and then we will see who else would like to put questions to
3 Mr. Petrusic.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good morning, Your
6 WITNESS: NEDELJKO ILIC
7 [Witness answered through interpretation]
8 Examination by Mr. Petrusic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. As you've just heard, my
10 name is Nenad Petrusic, and I represent the Defence of General Miletic
11 and will be asking you some questions today. But before that, I would
12 like to ask you to state your full name for the record.
13 A. My name is Nedeljko Ilic. I was born in 1950, in Tegare, in the
14 Bratunac municipality.
15 Q. Mr. Ilic, could you please tell us what schools have you
17 A. I am an economist; I completed the vocational college of
19 Q. And do you work today?
20 A. I work in my son's company; it's a privately run business.
21 Q. Before the armed conflict broke out in the territory of the
22 Republic of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina, did you work?
23 A. Yes. I did work in the Podrinje Company; it's a catering tourist
24 business. It was also before these events occurred and afterwards.
25 Q. Mr. Ilic, I would like to ask you to make a pause before starting
1 your answer so that everything is interpreted.
2 A. Yes, I understand. I will.
3 Q. Could you tell us where were the headquarters of your company
5 A. The hotel catering tourist company Podrinje had its headquarters
6 in Bratunac. In addition to hotels, the company included restaurants and
7 other facilities, so it was a company that dealt with catering and
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that at
10 page 4, line 25, we have an obvious mistake.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It will be looked into and corrected. Thank
12 you for pointing it out. Thank you. It's basically for the record,
13 instead of the witness's name "Nedeljko Ilic," we have "Slavko
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Ilic, did your company continue operating throughout the war
17 between 1992 and 1995?
18 A. Yes. We worked throughout that at a period. We served the third
19 persons to a smaller degree, but we mostly catered to the needs of the
20 military and civilian authorities as they asked us to do.
21 Q. And when the war broke out, were you mobilized, conscripted into
22 the army Republika Srpska?
23 A. Yes, from April 1992.
24 Q. And were you in the army throughout that time?
25 A. Yes, from the beginning until the end; until 1995, that is.
1 Q. And did you at the same time perform your job at the company?
2 A. Yes. In fact, I was conscripted in such a way that I had to do
3 some work for my company; and then, as needed, I was used or deployed in
4 the Bratunac Brigade as they needed.
5 Q. When we are talking about the outbreak of the hostilities in
6 1992, the line between your unit -- actually, who were you fighting?
7 A. The separation line was the Zuti Most, Yellow Bridge
8 interpreted], and so on, between Srebrenica and Bratunac; and the
9 conflict broke out between Muslims and Serbs.
10 Q. And those two municipalities, Bratunac and Srebrenica, were they
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you know that at some point in time during the war
14 protected areas were set up in that region?
15 A. Yes. I think that from mid-1993 onwards, that was the case.
16 Q. And could you tell us what was the protected area?
17 A. That was the area that covered the Srebrenica municipality, and
18 it was adjacent to the area covered by the Bratunac municipality.
19 Q. And do you know what peacekeeping force came to the municipality
20 of Srebrenica?
21 A. I know that, first, there were some smaller units; I don't know
22 much about them. And in the second half of 1993, towards the end of
23 1993, the Dutch Battalion was deployed there as the peacekeeping force in
24 the Srebrenica protected area.
25 Q. Did you have any business or private relations with the
1 peacekeeping force?
2 A. Upon the arrival of the Dutch Battalion in late 1993, I was told
3 that there was a possibility that I might be providing them with
4 logistics support from my company. There was a number of meetings in the
5 regiments, and this was, indeed, agreed upon later. So those were the
6 contacts that I had with the Dutch Battalion.
7 Q. And could you tell us how did those meetings come about? What
8 were the needs of the two sides?
9 A. Well, the representative of the observers - I think his name was
10 Andres - he came to the Fontana Hotel with Mr. Nikolic, and they said
11 that they had problems with supplying the forces up there at Potocari,
12 deployed there at Potocari, in terms of logistics. They asked me whether
13 I could organise at the level of the company the logistics support for
14 them. And since there were problems and difficulties, I also had to
15 contact the civilian authorities, tell them about it. I also had to
16 contact the military authorities, and they gave me the permission to set
17 up a meeting and to agree about this business.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Elderkin.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: Good morning, Your Honours. Not an objection, but
20 I see a reference to Mr. Nikolic and thought it might be helpful that
21 that's cleared up before we go any further.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are talking about of Momir Nikolic, though,
23 aren't we? I just need a confirmation and we can proceed. Thank you.
24 Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Ilic, could you please tell us which Nikolic are you talking
2 about, the one that attended this meeting?
3 A. That was Mr. Momir Nikolic.
4 Q. Could you tell us what did this logistics support imply, as you
5 put it?
6 A. Well, the logistics support comprised the provision of food
7 stuffs, bread, fruit, vegetables, juice, beer, cans, and other food
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 5D1170 up on
10 the screen, and could we move to page 2 of this document in both
12 Q. Mr. Ilic, in this version, in the Serbian version, do you
13 recognise the signature on the right-hand side?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us whose signature is it?
16 A. It is my signature.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now go back to page 1 in
18 both versions of this contract.
19 Q. And could you tell us if you recall this contract on the
20 provision of catering services?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. The date on this contract is the 18th of March, 1994. So was
23 that the first contract that you concluded with the representatives of
24 UNPROFOR, and of the Dutch Battalion, to be more specific?
25 A. Yes. This was the first contract, the first final contract that
1 was signed. The other meetings were of a preparatory nature, and
2 technicalities were arranged, the kind and prices for the goods to be
3 supplied and other technical issues that had to be dealt with before the
4 goods were actually delivered. So all the details were arranged that
5 there would be twice weekly deliveries, the items to be supplied were
6 specified, and it was also specified that payment would be cash on
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to look at
9 5D1171. Could we please have it up on our screens.
10 Q. Mr. Ilic, as you sit here, given the time that has passed in the
11 meantime, do you recall this document?
12 A. Yes, I do. This is an approval given by the government for
13 cooperation and work with the Dutch Battalion. It was signed by the
14 finance minister, Milenko Stanic.
15 Q. We can see in this information bulletin that some goods could not
16 be procured. Could you please tell us what this meant?
17 A. Well, for the most part, this had to do with the procurement of
18 weapons, footwear, clothes, and military equipment. I think that's what
19 it was.
20 Q. In accordance with the contract that you signed with the members
21 of the Dutch Battalion, and pursuant to this memo of the government, you
22 did not have any restrictions on the provision of supplies?
23 A. Up until I received this document, I could not do anything. It
24 was only when I received this document from the government that I was
25 able to actually provide the services as per the contract to the members
1 of the Dutch Battalion.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have
3 document 5D525. In the English version, the date is wrong; and instead
4 of the 18th of March, 1994
6 Could we please go to page 2 of this document, in both versions.
7 Q. Mr. Ilic, tell us, do you recognise the signature on the
8 right-hand side?
9 A. Yes, that's my signature.
10 Q. We can go back to page 1, where the representative of the Dutch
11 Battalion is said to be Major Boering. Do you remember this officer who
12 was the representative of DutchBat when this contract was concluded?
13 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I remember this.
14 Q. Mr. Ilic, you had a previous contract which was valid in 1984 and
15 the date was 18th of March, but it was 1994. Now we have another one
16 dated the 18th of March, 1995. Can you explain why the same contract was
17 concluded again? It's same as regards the rights and obligations of both
18 parties to the contract.
19 A. As the first contract had expired, it was valid for only a year.
20 After a year of work, the parties had to decide whether they would
21 continue their operation or not. As both parties were satisfied, a new
22 contract was drawn up on the 18th of March, 1995, after the expiry of the
23 one-year contract.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In line 6, page 11,
25 its 1984, not 1984.
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you remember for what period this contract was concluded?
3 A. You mean this last one, the 18th of March, 1995?
4 Q. Yes?
5 A. Well, I think it was valid for a year, also.
6 Q. Under this contract also, did you deliver to DutchBat goods once
7 or twice a week under the same conditions as previously?
8 A. Yes, certainly, and they were satisfied. We even discussed
9 extending our cooperation so that they could reside in the Fontana Hotel
10 in a more organised manner.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 5D1172 on the
12 screen, please. Could we scroll down a little bit in the Serbian
13 version. Excellent, yes. Very good. Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you recognise this signature on the right-hand side?
15 A. Yes, that's my signature.
16 Q. Can you tell us what this document is about and whether it has
17 any connection with your business dealings with UNPROFOR or, rather, with
19 A. This document is a report on the business done with the DutchBat
20 over a particular period of time. We were obliged to send such a report
21 to the government and to the military authorities, so both to the
22 civilian and the military authorities.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have document 1173 --
24 5D - excuse me - 1173.
25 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you recognise this document?
1 A. Yes. This is an invoice where the goods delivered are listed,
2 beer, coca cola, juice, and cake; the delivery dates; it says that the
3 goods were paid for in cash; and the representative of UNPROFOR who took
4 delivery of the goods and paid for them is mentioned here.
5 Q. Was this carried out on the 5th of May, 1995, this takeover of
6 goods and the payment?
7 A. Yes, yes, certainly. The 5th of May. Because on the day the
8 goods were delivered, the invoice was drawn up and the payment made; and
9 then for the next order, we would go across the Yellow Bridge
10 UNPROFOR headquarters, to the command.
11 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether the representatives of
12 DutchBat, when they took delivery of the goods, until the time they
13 crossed the Yellow Bridge
14 goods checked, were they confiscated, or anything like that?
15 A. I am not aware of that. Probably, the representative of DutchBat
16 would have told us if he had had any problems. When they took delivery
17 of the goods, there was always a commission that included a
18 representative of the brigade and a representative of the municipality,
19 so that when the invoice was finished, the representative of the brigade
20 would escort them as far as the demarcation line or the separation line.
21 I think there were no problems in this respect because, certainly, had
22 there been any problems, they would have pointed that out when they came
23 to the Fontana Hotel.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'd like another document, 5D1293.
25 Q. Mr. Ilic, do you remember this document?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. On the 1st of July 1995 is when this document was issued, and the
3 title of the document is "Authorisation to Fontana Hotel Bratunac to
4 Provide Commercial Services to UNPROFOR." So it's an authorisation.
5 Did you continue providing UNPROFOR with your services?
6 A. Yes, certainly. And from the document, you can see that the
7 representatives of the Drina Corps agreed for this business deal to be
8 continued. So, on the 1st of July, 1995, as this document shows, the
9 business deal continued to function.
10 Q. In addition to these deals that you had based on those two
11 contracts, did representatives of DutchBat visit your hotel and make use
12 of other hotel services?
13 A. I think they did and I don't think there were any obstacles to
14 that. I was even invited to visit their command. They visited the hotel
15 without any problems. They had no problems either in the hotel itself or
16 in the village.
17 Q. In mid-July, were you in the hotel? Were you at work?
18 A. No. As of the 4th of July, I was in my unit of the Bratunac
19 Brigade, that was the R Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
21 questions in my examination-in-chief of this witness.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
23 Mr. Zivanovic.
24 MR. SARAPA: I have no questions for this witness. Thank you.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
1 Mr. Ostojic.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: No questions, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
4 Mr. Bourgon.
5 MR. BOURGON: No questions, Mr. President.
6 Mr. Gosnell.
7 MR. GOSNELL: No questions, Mr. President. Thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
9 Mr. Krgovic.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: No questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 Mr. Sarapa.
13 MR. SARAPA: No questions. Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
15 Mr. Elderkin.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Elderkin:
18 Q. Good morning, witness. My name is Rupert Elderkin, and I am
19 going to ask you a few questions on behalf of the Office of the
21 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we have, please, 65 ter number 4070.
22 Q. So you see this letter dated 18th of March, 1994. This is a
23 letter that you wrote; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. I wrote this, or, rather, my secretary; and I signed it.
25 Q. And this is the same date as the first contract that you signed
1 with DutchBat, isn't it?
2 A. Yes. The 18th of March 1994, yes, yes.
3 Q. And in this letter, you sought permission from the local military
4 authorities in Bratunac to sell, it says, "beer, wine, and provisions,"
5 to the DutchBat; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And you also wrote:
8 "With such dealings, we would achieve economic effects that would
9 be beneficial for both parties."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, I do. That's correct. Part of the profits went to the
12 brigade and part went to the company. It was wartime and the company did
13 only a little business with third persons.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we have 65 ter 4075, please.
15 Q. While that's coming up, could you say how much of the profit was
16 going to the Bratunac Brigade, a percentage?
17 A. Well, I can't remember that now.
18 Q. Okay. You can see now there is another document on the screen
19 which is dated the 28th of June, 1995. This is a message that you wrote
20 to the Drina Corps command --
21 [French on English Channel]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are receiving translation in French on --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Apologies by interpreters. Apologise.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Please go ahead and sorry for the
25 interruption, Mr. Elderkin.
1 MR. ELDERKIN:
2 Q. So this is a document from the 28th of June, 1995, which you
3 wrote to the Drina Corps command; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And with this document, you are requesting permission from
6 General Zivanovic to continue to trade with DutchBat; that's right?
7 A. That's correct, yes.
8 Q. And you see there is a remark, and this says:
9 "You do know that this business cooperation allows for the
10 logical support of the Bratunac Brigade with 70 per cent profits, and
11 that it has been planned that the 300.000.000 dinars are given to that
12 brigade by the end of the year."
13 So the Bratunac Brigade received most of the profits from the
14 trade with DutchBat, didn't they?
15 A. That's correct. Yes, 70 per cent went to them and the plan was
16 earn 300.000 dinars.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: Could I have 65 ter 4071, please.
18 Q. Okay. This is going back now to 1994, and this is a document
19 from the 5th of August. This is a request that you sent - you with the
20 president of the Bratunac municipal Assembly sent - asking whether the
21 VRS Main Staff had consented for the Podrinje company to trade with
22 DutchBat; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. I am familiar with the document, and this is how it was.
24 We were duty-bound to send this to the General Staff and to the
25 government, all this information, and ask them to approve our work.
1 Q. So I see in the English, it refers to General Staff. That is the
2 Main Staff of the VRS, as in the staff headed by General Mladic; is that
4 A. That's correct, yes, yes.
5 Q. Thank you for the clarification.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: May I have 65 ter 4072, please.
7 Q. Okay. Now this is a document from the 10th of August of 1994,
8 and this is a document sent by the Drina Corps command to the Bratunac
9 Brigade command; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the Drina Corps command is responding to the 5th of August
12 letter we have just seen; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And here the Drina Corps command says:
15 "The command of the VRS Main Staff (Logistics Sector) has given
16 their consent for the goods to be delivered under the following
17 conditions ..."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I see it.
20 Q. And you agree that the trading relationship between the Podrinje
21 company and DutchBat was subject to this consent of the Main Staff?
22 A. Yes, both the Main Staff and the government.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see again 65 ter 5D1171, please.
24 Q. Now, we have already looked at this document this morning. This
25 is an information bulletin dated 30th of March, 1994, from the Republika
1 Srpska Ministry of Trade and Supply. Now, you saw this document earlier,
2 and page 10, lines 15 to 18 said:
3 "Up until I received this document, I could not do anything. It
4 was only when I received this document from the government that I was
5 able to actually provide the services as per the contract."
7 A. Yes, that's correct. Without both of these approvals, I wouldn't
8 be able to work. There may be a mistake in the dates somewhere, but
9 that's how it was. Without this information or advice from the
10 government, without their approval, that is, and from the brigade, I
11 couldn't do that. I couldn't engage in that business deal.
12 Q. Now, this document also refers to goods which your company was
13 not permitted to trade with DutchBat; and in response to a question about
14 that, you said, at page 10, lines 9 to 11, that:
15 "Well, for the most part, this had to do with the procurement of
16 weapons, footwear, clothes, and military equipment. I think that's what
17 it was."
18 Do you recall that answer?
19 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Now, in fact, this document here before us refers to a list of
21 goods at Article 2 of the decree on special conditions of traffic of
22 goods and services in the Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska,
23 number 1693. You see that reference?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could have, please, 65 ter 4079.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: While that is coming up, Mr. Elderkin, the break
2 will be at 10.40 and not at 10.30. That will be a shortened break of the
3 20 minutes instead of the usual 25. Thank you.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: And I may be done by then, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could scroll down on the B/C/S page.
7 And I see in the English, there doesn't appear to be a second page.
8 There should be a translation of Article 2. It should be page 2.
9 Perfect. Article 2.
10 Q. And so you see this is the decree which was referred to in the
11 letter from the ministry we just looked at?
12 A. I think this refers to the needs of the military: Maize, wheat,
13 beans, salt, detergents, and so on, lard. There was no need for me to
14 deal in that, nor did I. One can see that from the specifications on the
15 invoices that were issued when the representatives of DutchBat took
16 delivery of the goods. The goods listed here in Article 2 are not
17 mentioned in any of the invoices.
18 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir. I just wanted to take this
19 logically so that it's as clear to us as it is to you. But this is the
20 decree on special conditions of traffic and goods and services which was
21 referred to in the letter we just saw; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. And do you recall that the letter specified that the Podrinje
24 company was not permitted to trade the goods listed in Article 2 of this
25 decree with DutchBat?
1 A. They didn't list them by kind. It was only mentioned that
2 Article 2 from the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska listed goods. My
3 people in my office had that Official Gazette and we abided by it. So we
4 traded only in goods we were permitted to trade in by the staff, Main
5 Staff, and by the government.
6 Q. And you already, in fact, referred to the goods listed in
7 Article 2, and those included wheat, wheat flour, corn, corn flour,
8 sugar, oil, lard, beans, salt, rice, and dairy products, as well as other
9 basic goods, and anything else which the ministry might decide; is that
11 A. Yes. That is true because these were strategic commodities, and
12 the ministry decided there. There was no need for us to ask for that, to
13 request it at all.
14 Q. And you were not permitted to sell these strategic commodities to
15 the DutchBat according to the letter from the ministry that we just saw;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see 65 ter 4073, please.
19 Q. Now, this is a bill from the Podrinje company to UNPROFOR, dated
20 the 17th of February 1995, and signed by yourself; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And on this occasion, the goods sold to DutchBat were beer, wine,
23 and soft drinks; that's right?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. And no food appears on this bill?
1 A. No, there is no food there.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see again 5D1173, please.
3 Q. And we already looked at this bill which is from the 5th of May;
4 and, here, the goods that were sold to DutchBat were beer, juice, soft
5 drinks, and some cake. No other food appears on the bill apart from the
6 cake, does it?
7 A. That's correct, just cakes.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could have 5D1172, please.
9 Q. Now, again, we've already seen this document this morning. Could
10 you tell us what period does this report cover, please?
11 A. I think that the reports were submitted quarterly, every three
13 Q. And this report shows the profits that were being made by the
14 Podrinje company under the contract with DutchBat; is that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. But it does not identify which goods were actually -- which kind
17 of goods were actually being sold, does it?
18 A. Since copies of bills were sent both to the brigade and the
19 municipal authorities, the itemized reports they had; but this is a
20 summary report based on those invoices and bills. So this is a quarterly
21 report for the business that was done in the three month periods, item by
23 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we have 65 ter 4074, please.
24 Q. Now, this is an information report dated the 2nd of May 1995.
25 Who was this sent to?
1 A. We were under an obligation to send those documents to the
2 military and civilian authorities, to the government, and to the General
3 Staff, too. And this is for the period from the 1st of March 1995 until
4 the 1st of May 1995, so it's a two-month period.
5 Q. And, in fact, this shows all of the sales made by the Podrinje
6 company to DutchBat during that two-month period; is that correct?
7 A. I think so, yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And the total value of those sales was over 102.000 Deutschmarks,
9 wasn't it?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. And more than half of that was from sales of beer; is that
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And, in fact, almost all of the sales were of drinks, more than
15 100.000 Deutschmarks; and apart from drinks, the only sales of food was
16 of cakes, which was for the value of some 1.500 Deutschmarks; is that
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Now, at page 8, lines 24 to 25, today, you said:
20 "The logistics support comprised the provision of food stuffs,
21 bread, fruit, vegetables, beer, cans, and other food stuffs."
22 Now, the only food stuffs we've seen sold to DutchBat in these
23 invoices is cake, isn't it?
24 A. Well, you probably don't have the invoices, but food and
25 vegetables, all the food stuffs that were not listed in Article 2 of the
1 Official Gazette, the ones that couldn't be traded, they were sold. You
2 probably just don't have the relevant invoices, but I do think that
3 deliveries were made of fruit, vegetables, and cakes.
4 Q. Thank you very much, witness.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: And I don't have any further questions.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
7 Is there re-examination?
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Then go ahead.
10 Re-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ilic, in the course of your business
12 cooperation with the Dutch Battalion, did there come a time that they --
13 when they asked you to deliver goods, that you were not able to deliver
14 to them?
15 A. Well, I don't think so. They also were aware of our capabilities
16 and of all those things, so that they did not make any special request
17 that we would not be able to meet, apart from the goods that are listed
18 in Article 2.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I don't have any further
20 questions, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
22 Mr. Ilic, we have no further questions for you. We are finished
23 with your testimony. You are free to go. Our staff will assist you and
24 facilitate your return back home at the earliest. On behalf of the Trial
25 Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over and also wish you a
1 safe journey back home.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll do the documents after the break; make sure
5 you have them ready. Twenty minutes.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So, documents. Mr. Petrusic, you have five
9 documents which I see here on the list.
10 Any objection from the Prosecution?
11 MR. ELDERKIN: None, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: And from the other Defence teams? So thank you.
13 These documents are all admitted. Then we have the Prosecution list,
14 seven documents.
15 Any objections, Ms. Fauveau -- sorry, Mr. Petrusic? Pardon.
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
18 Any objections from the other Defence teams? None. So these
19 seven documents are also admitted, and we can move to the next witness.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Madam.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And you're most welcome at this Tribunal. You are
24 about to start giving evidence as a Defence witness for General Miletic.
25 Before you do so, our rules require that you make a solemn declaration to
1 the effect that you will be testifying the truth. A text is being given
2 to you now, please read it out aloud, and that will be your solemn
3 undertaking with us.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I solemnly
5 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, ma'am. You will be asked some questions
8 by -- please make yourself comfortable. You will be asked some questions
9 by Ms. Fauveau, and then we will see who else will have some questions
10 for you.
11 Ms. Fauveau.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 WITNESS: MAJA SPIROSKI
14 [Witness answered through interpretation]
15 Examination by Ms. Fauveau:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Could you let's know your name?
17 A. My name is Maja Spiroski, nee Miletic.
18 Q. What was your education, which studies did you do?
19 A. I have a degree in dentistry, and I specialised in dental
21 Q. What is your connection with General Miletic?
22 A. He is my father.
23 Q. What is your birth date?
24 A. I was born on the 10th of July, 1977, Your Honour.
25 Q. Where were you born?
1 A. Your Honours, I was born in Zadar, the Republic of Croatia
2 Q. What is your nationality?
3 A. Well, I declare myself as a Serb, but I have both Croatian and
4 the Serbian citizenship.
5 Q. What is the nationality of your mother?
6 A. Your Honours, my mother is a Croat.
7 Q. Do you have a brother or a sister?
8 A. Yes, I have a brother.
9 Q. Are you married?
10 A. Yes, I am married.
11 Q. What is the nationality of your husband?
12 A. My husband is Macedonian, Your Honours.
13 Q. Is your brother married?
14 A. Yes, he is married.
15 Q. What is the nationality of the wife of your brother, or brother's
17 A. His wife is a Croat, Your Honours.
18 Q. Where did you live before the beginning of war in ex-Yugoslavia?
19 A. Up until the beginning of the war, we lived in Zadar, Croatia
20 Q. Could you tell us in which year you left Zadar?
21 A. We left Zadar in the summer of 1991, right at the beginning of
22 the summer of that year.
23 Q. With whom did you live in Zadar during the last year before you
24 left Zadar?
25 A. Well, the last year, 1991, before we had left, and in the last
1 part of 1990, my mother, my brother, and myself lived in Zadar. My
2 father was away in Belgrade
4 Q. Could you tell us why you left Zadar? Why did you leave Zadar?
5 A. Well, in 1991, it was a very difficult year. It was a period of
6 unrest throughout Croatia
7 because the population there was of mixed ethnicity, and there was a lot
8 of army personnel there. So I remember this whole year as a series of
9 unpleasant situations at school, and in our environment in general.
10 But at that time, I was not so much offended by what people were
11 saying about Serbs, because I did not feel at that time that I was a
12 Serb. I felt that I was a Yugoslav, and it didn't matter to me what
13 ethnic background people had.
14 Whereas, what people were saying about the Yugoslav Peoples' Army
15 and the military personnel in general, that really I found it, because I
16 took it personally as attacks on my father and by extension on our whole
18 Q. When you left Zadar in 1991, who were you with? With whom did
19 you leave?
20 A. I left Zadar with my brother.
21 Q. What happened about your mother, for your mother?
22 A. My mom remained in Zadar for a while, up until September or
24 Q. Why did your mother stay in Zadar after you left?
25 A. Well, my mom had a job in Zadar; on the other hand, we were a
1 typical [as interpreted] army family. We did not follow our father as he
2 was moving from post to post. My mom worked in Zadar and my brother and
3 I went to school, and we expected that things would calm down and that we
4 would go back to Zadar. My brother was about to start his university
5 studies, so the situation for him was a little bit different, but I
6 expected fully that I would go back to Zadar to reunite with my mother
7 because nobody really expected the war to break out.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
9 go asked slow down a little bit.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau, will you look into that,
11 please. Thank you.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I would ask you to speak a bit slower, because the interpreters
14 have some problems. You are speaking a bit too fast, much too fast. And
15 also, for the transcript, I think there is a mistake at page 28, lines 6
16 and 7. Could you repeat what you said.
17 You were a family -- a typical family of militaries, or
18 non-typical family of militaries?
19 A. We were not a typical army family. In the course of their
20 service, army personnel would be moved from post to post and their
21 families usually followed them; but up until the age of 13, from my
22 birth, and my brother up until his 20th year, we lived in Zadar and so
23 did my mother. My father was with us unless he was posted somewhere
25 Q. You said that your brother was supposed to start his studies.
1 Where did he go to when he left Zadar?
2 A. My brother went to Sarajevo
3 Q. Why did he choose to go to Sarajevo
4 A. Well, both brothers and sister of my father lived in Sarajevo
5 that my brother and I would always spend at least a part of your summer
6 and winter vacations in Sarajevo
7 started our university studies that we would do that in Sarajevo
8 Q. What happened, where did you go to?
9 A. Well, at the time when we left Sarajevo, my brother and I, we
10 were --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: When we left Zadar.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- my brother and I, we went to
14 with my father's relatives in the country -- in the countryside. Then we
15 went back to Sarajevo
16 going back to Zadar, and we were trying to find some solution for my
17 education. At the time, I was about to enroll in secondary school.
18 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And, finally, where did you go to secondary school?
20 A. In the end, I went to the secondary school in Belgrade. It was a
21 dentistry school.
22 Q. What were your first impressions in Belgrade? How did you get
23 used to living in Belgrade
24 A. Well, I found it hard to accommodate to life in Belgrade.
1 at school at the time. Well, language was the same, but the script was
2 the problem for me. Because in Serbia
3 didn't really know it, because in Croatia we mostly used the Latin
4 alphabet. So, right at the beginning, I had some problems while I was
5 coming to terms with the Cyrillic alphabet and while I was getting used
6 to the environment. But later on, things did improve.
7 Q. During the first few months -- during those first few months in
9 A. Your Honours, when we arrived from Bosnia, so it was in early
10 August 1991, I lived with some friends of my mother and father's, Zoran
11 and Kata Matijic.
12 Q. Where were your parents at the time?
13 A. Up until the 13th of September, my mom was in Zadar, and my dad,
14 at that time, still lived in the barracks. My brother was in Sarajevo
15 Q. And when your mother arrived in Belgrade, were you together?
16 A. No. For a certain period of time, I think it was about a month
17 and a half, we were apart. We lived in the same city but in three
18 different places. My mom lived with -- with some other friends of ours,
19 at Dolcol; I was with Aunt Kata and Uncle Zoki; and my father was in the
20 barracks in Dedinje. It was only in November that we managed to rent an
22 It was not until April 1992 that we got some premises from the
23 army, and they then had to be refurbished in order to be fit for
24 habitation, to turn them into a proper apartment.
25 Q. During the period, so after you arrived in Belgrade and until the
1 end of 1995, did you have any contact at all with your friends in Zadar?
2 A. Throughout the war, I was in contact only with one friend,
3 girlfriend. Up until the beginning of the war, we had been best friends
4 and our friendship survived. She's a Croat; she remained in Zadar. In
5 late 1991, she moved to Zagreb
6 to have a correspondence with Zagreb
9 Q. Do you have any idea at all are where your father was between
10 1992 and the end of 1995?
11 A. Yes. My father was in the army of Republika Srpska.
12 Q. Was he coming home every now and then?
13 A. Yes. He would come home approximately every three months. I
14 can't now tell you that. But on the average, he would be home every
15 three months, and then he would stay a couple of days.
16 Q. Did he come in 1995?
17 A. Yes, Your Honours, in 1995, just as he did in the previous years.
18 Q. Do you remember until when he would have come to Belgrade
19 in 1995?
20 A. I think that he came, I think, in late March; and the next time
21 the it was for my birthday, the 10th. He arrived a few days before my
22 birthday, and he was in Belgrade
23 Q. Do you remember the date of his arrival in Belgrade?
24 A. He arrived on Friday. I remember that quite well because
25 the 10th, my birthday, was on Monday that year. He arrived in -- on
1 Friday, and that was the 7th of July.
2 Q. And what happened while he was there in Belgrade in July 1995?
3 Can you describe the days that follow the 7th of July?
4 A. Your Honours, well, just before that, I think in June - I can't
5 give you the exact date - my father was promoted to the rank of general.
6 So on the 7th, when he came home, he told us in the afternoon that he
7 would like to celebrate the fact that he was promoted, and also my
8 birthday, and perhaps the best thing would be to have a single feast to
9 celebrate both occasions.
10 So that afternoon, my father invited some of our family friends;
11 and then on Saturday, the next day, and the day after that, we had people
12 for lunch. And since the apartment was on the small side, the agreement
13 was that my people, my friends, would come on the 10th, the day of my
14 birthday, and they did come for the party on the 10th in the evening.
15 Q. You told us that friends of the family arrived on the Saturday
16 and the day after that.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Why didn't the friends of the family come all in one go?
19 A. Your Honours, the apartment was really small and it was simpler
20 to divide them up over the period of two days.
21 Q. You told us that your friends arrived on the 10th. Do you
22 remember how you spent the day of the 10th and then the 11th of July?
23 A. Yes, Your Honours, I remember the 10th very well. As enrollment
24 at the university was almost over, it was the last day that was possible,
25 so I spent the whole morning at the university. In the evening, my
1 friends arrived, and that was the first time I tasted alcohol, so all
2 that really sticks in my memory. On the 11th, I slept in, which I didn't
3 usually do in the morning. I remember that on the 11th, at around 6.00
4 or 7.00, my aunt rang up from Pale, and she spoke to my father. I know
6 I remember that after that, Daddy was quite surprised and a
7 little bit upset because she had told him that Srebrenica had fallen and
8 he didn't know that before. Later on, at 7.30, it was announced on the
10 Q. Do you remember when General Miletic left Belgrade?
11 A. Yes, I remember that very well, Your Honours. It was early in
12 the morning of the 12th. I remember we said goodbye, I even remember
13 what he was wearing, and I remember that I waved goodbye to him from the
14 window. The whole scene is very vivid in my memory.
15 Q. Did you go to Zadar after the war?
16 A. Yes, yes, Your Honours, I did, in the year 2000 and in the year
18 Q. Could you perhaps tells more about your relationship with your
19 father, General Miletic. As a father, what he was he like?
20 A. Your Honours, I was very lucky, I have to tell you, because my
21 father was very understanding. We could communicate with few words.
22 He's a very mild man. He is not a difficult man. We love each other
23 very much, and we understand each other really well.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci, Madam.
2 Mr. Zivanovic.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No questions for the witness.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Any of the Defence teams wishes to put questions?
5 I would imagine there isn't anyone, so that's the position.
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, just a very few questions --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please go ahead.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Mr. President.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
11 Q. Good morning, Ms. Spiroski. My name is it Peter McCloskey, I
12 represent the Prosecution, and I will just have a very few questions for
13 you this morning.
14 You said that your father's departure back to the war was a very
15 vivid memory. Can you tell us who he went back to the war with, if
17 A. Are you asking about July 1995?
18 Q. That point after your birthday.
19 A. Your Honours, I remember -- I don't know a lot about makes of
20 cars, but I remember very well that it was a luxury car, black metallic
21 in colour. This was unusual because Daddy didn't usually use a car like
22 that, either when coming or going, but I don't remember whether there was
23 anyone else inside the car. I waved to him from the window and watched
24 him as he got into the car.
25 Q. Was he driving, or did he have a driver?
1 A. No. He wasn't driving, Your Honour. There was a driver.
2 Q. And who was the driver?
3 A. Well, believe me, I don't know. The driver did not get out of
4 the car.
5 Q. Had that car -- had your father arrived in that fancy car a few
6 days earlier?
7 A. Your Honours, when Daddy arrived in Belgrade, he arrived between
8 2.00 and 3.00 p.m. It was around lunchtime, and a driver came with him
9 and we offered him lunch. That was usual. If somebody came with him, we
10 would invite them to lunch, but I didn't go outside so I didn't see what
11 sort of car he had used on arrival.
12 Q. Was the driver that he arrived with the same driver that he left
13 with a few days later?
14 A. Your Honours, when Daddy was going back, the driver did not get
15 out of the car, so I didn't see who the driver was. I saw the driver who
16 came with him on arrival.
17 Q. So, aside from those two brief times, did you see the driver?
18 Did he come by to check in with your father or take him around town
19 somewhere or anything like that that you remember?
20 A. Your Honours, it's possible that he took him around town because
21 on Monday, Daddy went out to do some errands. But I don't know whether
22 that was the driver he went back with, because on the day he went back,
23 the driver didn't come inside.
24 Q. Did you make an effort to go look for any photos of your
25 18th birthday party and your father's celebration for becoming general?
1 A. Your Honours, that was a very difficult time. Most of our
2 belongings had been left behind in Zadar, so unfortunately I didn't have
3 a camera. I would have loved to have taken photographs of many special
4 times during my schooling; but, unfortunately, I was I wasn't able to and
5 I wasn't able to do that on the birthday.
6 Q. Well, there were lots of adults and military folks, and we know
7 from this case that they liked to do video, and people -- everybody likes
8 to do video of special occasions and photographs. Did you make any
9 effort yourself; or are you aware, did the Defence, in talking to you,
10 did anyone make any effort to see if there is anymore record of this
11 party or this weekend?
12 A. Your Honours, I believe the Defence lawyers tried to find that;
13 but as for videos or photographs in our house, I would have known about
14 that. But it's something I would love to have if such things existed. I
15 wouldn't rest until I had got hold of those photos or videos, because
16 that was a special family occasion for us.
17 Q. Well, we would like to have them, too. That's one thing we have
18 in common, but sometimes those things don't exist. Were there any
19 military people at that party your father had, any other colonels or
21 A. Yes, of course. There was Pero Djurdjic. I think he was a
22 colonel at the time or a lieutenant-colonel, I am not sure. He was our
23 Kum; then there was General Romanko Disevic with his wife; There was
24 General - he is a general now; I don't know if he was then - Ivan Djoltic
25 with his wife; and General Banjac.
1 Q. And did you have a television at your house then?
2 A. Yes, of course. We got the TV set out of Zadar.
3 Q. And it worked okay during this period in July 1995?
4 A. Yes, of course, it did.
5 Q. And you had a telephone that worked, too?
6 A. Yes, we did.
7 Q. And was the television on, on the 10th, 11th of July?
8 A. Your Honours, from 1991 onwards, when we left Zadar, there was a
9 TV show that we always watched in our house. That was the news at 7.30.
10 We watched other news programmes also, but we never missed the news at
11 7.30, because my mother's and my father's families were both at risk, and
12 we followed what the media recorded was happening in Croatia and Bosnia
13 Q. Do you remember the station, what station that was, or the name
14 of the programme that you would always watch?
15 A. Of course, it was the first programme, RTS, RST 1. They always
16 had the main news programme at 7.30 and still do.
17 Q. Okay, Doctor. Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, Mr. McCloskey.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, just one question.
21 Re-examination by Ms. Fauveau:
22 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned a number of people who were there
23 at the party back in July 1995. Were -- the people you mentioned, or
24 some of the people you mentioned, were they all there on the same day, or
25 were some there on one day and others on the other day?
1 A. Your Honours, I can't remember now who came on what day. The
2 Prosecutor asked me about officers. There were also other people who
3 were not officers, but we divided them up over two days.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I have no other questions. Thank
6 JUDGE AGIUS: There are no further questions for you, Madam,
7 which means your testimony finishes here. On behalf of the Trial
8 Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give evidence, and
9 on behalf of everyone here, I also wish you a safe journey back home.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Any documents? So no documents to tender.
13 We can move to the next witness: Mr. Klacar.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a little
15 problem. We didn't think things would go so fast, so the following
16 witness should be here at half past 12.00, but I'll try and make sure he
17 can come early. Could we perhaps have a break now and possibly call the
18 witness then?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem. And in any case, we have no other
20 option. So we'll have -- let's play it by ear. Would it be possible for
21 you to check in good time when he could -- the earliest he could come,
22 and then inform us accordingly. The sitting will resume as soon as he's
23 back, all right?
24 So, however, there will be at least a 20-minute break, at least,
25 okay? Because that is regular. Registrar will communicate with
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I am informed we have one
3 housekeeping matter that might use the time.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: That we can do, that we can do.
5 Yes, Mr. Thayer. Take your time, we are not in a hurry.
6 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you, and
7 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
8 Two housekeeping matters just to follow-up on; some issues that
9 arose, I think, last week and even the week before.
10 The first is, Your Honours, may recall during the
11 cross-examination of General Simic, there was some confusion as to the
12 date of the death of General Mladic's daughter. And I think we've
13 arrived at an agreement with Defence Counsel. After searching various
14 public media sources and other sources, that Ana Mladic, in fact, took
15 her own life on the 24th of March, 1994. So I think we are able to
16 stipulate among the parties that that was the date of that tragic
18 The second matter I wish to raise, I promised Judge Kwon I would
19 be returning to the Court on this issue from last week, pertains to a
20 question that our friends from the Gvero team raised in connection with
21 the tendering of exhibits for witness Dragisa Masal. There was an order,
22 a Main Staff order, which was shown to General Masal during his
23 cross-examination. It was the same order that was entered into evidence
24 through Richard Butler during his testimony. The version that was shown
25 to General Masal was just a little different. It's one of the mischiefs
1 that's created when we have the same document coming from different
2 archives and sources and it gets a different ERN.
3 So the question was raised, why was essentially the same document
4 shown to two different witnesses with two different ERNs with slightly
5 different markings on them. There is no great mystery. I simply pulled
6 the document by ERN from one file that I have, didn't realise that Butler
7 had been shown another version. Subsequently, there is no difference.
8 There is some difference in markings, but the marks that were shown -- or
9 that were on the document that were shown to General Masal are immaterial
10 as far as the Prosecution is concerned.
11 Given that, because that was the version that was shown to the
12 witness, we would still ask that that second version be admitted, just so
13 that we know exactly what indeed was shown to the witness, even though
14 it's essentially the same document entered into evidence with Mr. Butler.
15 The other issue related to that exhibit is, we had an English
16 translation for the version shown to Mr. Butler, but no English
17 translation of the version that was shown to General Masal. So we can
18 get an English translation that also translates the very small
19 handwriting on the version that was sent to or shown to General Masal,
20 although it's, as far as the Prosecution is concerned, not an issue that
21 we had any interest in raising. It simply says "to file" I think is the
22 only difference in the handwriting shown to General Masal.
23 So I just want to do update the Chamber to that, and the 65 ter
24 document for the document in question is 2669 B, a Main Staff order dated
25 27 May 1995
1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Thayer. Any comments,
2 any objections to -- as regards the stipulation, I don't think there is
3 anything you would like to say, as regards the other document that the
4 Prosecution now wishes to tender for comparative purposes and for
5 completion purposes. Okay, no comments.
6 So go ahead, Mr. Thayer, and do what you said you will be doing.
7 All right. We will break now. In the meantime -- yes?
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I am informed the witness will be here in ten
10 minutes, but I need to -- I think we can still have the break now. It
11 will be of 20 minutes -- 25 minutes. We'll have a 25-minute break.
12 Thank you.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Klacar.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: You've been summoned by General Miletic's Defence
19 team to give evidence in this trial. Before you do so, however, you are
20 required to make a solemn declaration that you will be testifying the
21 truth. Madam Usher is going to give you the text. Please stand up, read
22 it out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I begin? I solemnly declare
24 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 Is there nothing else? All right.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Not for the time being.
2 Mr. Petrusic.
3 WITNESS: RANKO KLACAR
4 [Witness answered through interpretation]
5 Examination by Mr. Petrusic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Klacar. First I will
7 introduce myself. As you know, my name is Nenad Petrusic; and today, I
8 will be putting questions to you on behalf of the Defence of General
10 To begin with, please state your first and last name for the
12 A. Ranko Klacar.
13 Q. I must also ask you at the outset to make a short pause between
14 my question and your answer. It my be a good idea if you were to observe
15 the cursor on the monitor, and when the cursor stops and the text is
16 complete, you can begin your answer.
17 Tell us, where were you born?
18 A. In Sarajevo
19 Q. How old are you -- or, rather, what is your date of birth?
20 A. The 10th of April, 1962.
21 Q. Please, Mr. Klacar, observe the pause.
22 Tell us, what school have you completed?
23 A. I am a mechanical technician and a driving instructor.
24 Q. Did you work before the war?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us where?
2 A. The military industry, Pretis Vogosca, near Sarajevo.
3 Q. And where were you when the war broke out in 1992 on the
4 territory of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina?
5 A. In Sarajevo
6 Q. Did you stay there?
7 A. No, I fled. At the beginning of April, I moved to
8 Serb-controlled territory -- or, what was it called at the time?
9 Q. What Serb-controlled territory did you move to? What town?
10 A. I was referring to Sarajevo
11 on, Pale.
12 Q. Were you conscripted into the army of Republika Srpska; and if
13 so, tell us when?
14 A. Yes, I was, on the 6th of May. That's when I joined the army of
15 Republika Srpska, and I stayed there until the end.
16 Q. What unit did you join?
17 A. The 2nd Romanija Battalion where I stayed for a few months, and
18 then the rest of the war I spent at military post 3750 in the Main Staff.
19 Q. What duties did you have in the Main Staff?
20 A. I was a driver.
21 Q. As a driver, what unit or sector did you belong to?
22 A. The rear, logistics; the part of the Main Staff that had to do
23 with logistics and the rear.
24 Q. Were you issued with a motor vehicle when you were working in
1 A. Yes. In different periods of time, I was issued with different
2 vehicles. So there was more than one vehicle, because this went on from
3 1992 to 1995. So I was issued with different vehicles, not all at the
4 same time, of course.
5 Q. In 1995, when performing your job as driver in the Main Staff,
6 were you assigned to different officers or only one officer?
7 A. From 1993 onwards, I was mostly assigned to generals. And in
8 1994 and 1995, I was General Stevan Tomic's driver. He was a
9 major-general, and he was the one whom I served the longest.
10 Q. And what sector did Stevan Tomic belong to?
11 A. He was - I don't know if I'll express myself properly - but he
12 was the chief of finance or assistant commander for financial affairs. I
13 don't know what is the proper military term for that. I'm only a driver,
14 after all.
15 Q. When you say the commander's assistant, are you referring to
16 General Mladic?
17 A. Yes. I don't know what he was in terms of establishment, but he
18 was the top man as far as finances went.
19 Q. And where was his headquarters?
20 A. His headquarters was in Crna Rijeka, and I was the only driver
21 who was billeted elsewhere in relation to his immediate superior officer.
22 I was in hotel Gora in Han Pijesak, and my immediate superior - the only
23 one I reported to - General Tomic, was billeted in Crna Rijeka, seven or
24 eight kilometres away in Crna Rijeka.
25 Q. And then did you go from Han Pijesak to Crna Rijeka when summoned
1 by General Tomic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall in 1995 what vehicle were you using?
4 A. Yes, I do. It was a Golf MK II, it was quite new, it had come
5 from the strategic stockpiles. It was virtually a new car. At the time
6 when I got it, it had 40 kilometres. It was dark blue; we call it mouse
7 colour. It's just one shade later than black; it's dark grey.
8 Q. Can you tell us, in the performance of your duties, did you rely
9 on the transport and traffic service in the Main Staff?
10 A. Not directly. The drivers who drove generals were assigned to
11 the generals. Both the vehicle and the driver were at the disposal of
12 the general in question, and this general was not duty-bound to contact
13 the transport and traffic service to ask for a vehicle. They, the
14 generals, could use their vehicles and their drivers as needed. They
15 didn't have to consult or ask for anything from the transport and traffic
16 service. They didn't have to seek the service's approval. They only had
17 to speak to their superiors if they wanted to go on a leave of absence or
18 something like that, and they didn't have to look for any approval for
19 the drivers and vehicles.
20 Q. As you drove General Tomic around the territory of Republika
21 Srpska, did you receive travel orders or any similar papers?
22 A. No.
23 Q. In 1995, did you travel outside of the territory of Republika
24 Srpska; or, to be more specific, did you travel to Belgrade?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us how often?
2 A. Well, I can say with absolute certainty that I went there more
3 frequently than any other driver in the staff.
4 Q. Can you tell us what you mean when you say that, "more frequently
5 than any other driver"?
6 A. Well, the nature of the work of General Tomic, his duties,
7 required him to go to Belgrade
8 Q. Did you receive any travel orders at that time?
9 A. No, it was not necessary.
10 Q. Can you tell me, as you travelled to Belgrade, what license
11 plates did you have on your vehicle?
12 A. Civilian plates.
13 Q. Can you tell us what crossings did you use?
14 A. It would depend on the situation; but in most cases, it was
15 Karakaj, Sepak. Raca, we used seldom.
16 Q. And the police manning the crossings, Karakaj and Sepak, did they
17 ever ask you to produce any documents apart from your personal IDs?
18 A. Well, they wanted to get the vehicle registration booklet. They
19 wanted the information about the vehicle.
20 Q. And were there any special permits or approvals that you may have
22 A. No.
23 Q. Mr. Klacar, do you know General Miletic?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. How do you know him?
1 A. From the Main Staff.
2 Q. Do you know if he had a driver of his own?
3 A. At a certain time, yes.
4 Q. Could you tell us what time-period we are talking about?
5 A. That was in 1995.
6 Q. When in 1995, mid-1995?
7 A. Late 1995, once he was promoted to the rank of general.
8 Q. Were you in a position to drive General Miletic in 1995?
9 A. Yes. I drove him twice, and I had never driven him before. It
10 was only the two times in 1995.
11 Q. Can you tell us where did you drive him to?
12 A. The first time it was to Miljevina from Sarajevo. It was a
13 turn-off just before the town of Foca
14 Q. And the second time?
15 A. The second time was to Belgrade
16 Q. Do you recall when you drove to Belgrade?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you now, to the best of your recollection, tell us when this
20 A. Just before the whole hullabaloo around Srebrenica.
21 Q. When you say events, or to use the term that you yourself used,
22 "hullabaloo around Srebrenica," what do you mean when you say that, "the
23 hullabaloo around Srebrenica"?
24 A. Well, everybody describes things the way they see them. I, as a
25 driver, only paid attention to the road leading to Miletici, Zvornik, Han
1 Pijesak. It's the same road. So there was a period when this road was
2 safe, and it was possible to pass. Then there were periods when it was
3 risky if you took this road. That's what I mean when I use this term,
5 Q. Can you tell me, as you set off, was it safe to use this road?
6 A. Yes, absolutely.
7 Q. And could you tell us, what was the period when it was more
8 dangerous to use that road, if you compare it to the first time when you
9 used it with General Miletic?
10 A. Well, that was the period --
11 Q. Well, what time-period?
12 A. Well, let's say some ten days - well, it's difficult to be very
13 specific given the time that has passed - some ten days, give or take a
14 day or two.
15 Q. Let us now go back to the safe period, the period when the safety
16 of the vehicles passing by that road was not compromised. Could you
17 please tell us how, in what circumstances, you actually drove Mr. Miletic
18 to Belgrade
19 A. Well, I drove General Miletic there on the orders or approval of
20 General Tomic. I say "approval" because General Stevan Tomic - I was his
21 driver, and actually my vehicle was at Tomic's disposal - approved my
22 secondment to General Miletic and also the use of his vehicle to drive
23 General Miletic there.
24 Q. Do you recall -- where did you pick up General Miletic?
25 A. In Crna Rijeka.
1 Q. Do you recall how long did it take to travel to Belgrade?
2 A. A relatively short time. It's about 220, 225 kilometres. If you
3 don't count in the time that it takes you to get into Belgrade, then you
4 can dock 15 kilometres away from -- off that figure. I think it took
5 about three hours, less than three hours, because we had this nice new
7 Q. Do you recall the time when you actually set off from Crna
9 A. Well, as for the exact hour, well, I know that it was about 2.00.
10 Q. Did you drive General Miletic all the way up to his place?
11 A. Yes, all the way up to his apartment.
12 Q. Just a small correction. Did you say that you arrived in
14 A. Yes, around 2.00. I know that, if you allow me to explain.
15 Q. Yes, please do go ahead.
16 A. General Miletic expected us to arrive a bit later. He thought
17 that we would be there at around 3.00, and he actually remarked on how
18 fast I was driving and he commented on it with General Tomic. They
19 actually cracked a few jokes about that, about my driving.
20 Q. And can you tell us when did General Tomic and General Miletic
21 exchange those comments?
22 A. Well, General Miletic, since I left him in Belgrade at his home,
23 he called General Tomic, of course, to let him know that I was fine and
24 that I was on my way back, that the vehicle was fine, and that I would be
25 back. Then he commented - that's what General Tomic said - he commented
1 on how fast I had been driving. Then they made some jokes, and that's
2 how I recall all this. I don't know if I have to tell you the jokes.
3 Q. Did you return to Crna Rijeka the same day, or did you remain in
5 A. I went back straight away. I left General Miletic at his
6 apartment in Belgrade
7 Q. Did you go up to his apartment?
8 A. Yes. I actually had lunch there. I was invited to have lunch.
9 Q. Mr. Klacar, let us go back, briefly, to the safe part of the
10 passage down the road that you were telling us about.
11 So my question was: Let us go back to this passage down the road
12 to Konjevic Polje-Zvornik to Karakaj at the time when it was not safe, at
13 that time when there were those events around Srebrenica. You said that
14 some ten days, give or take two or three days, you passed down that road.
15 Could you tell us if and when you passed down that road in the
16 unsafe period?
17 A. I can't tell you the exact date, but I was -- well, can I give
18 you the timeline? At that time-period, the deputy, or one of the
19 assistants to General Tomic, who was absent -- General Tomic was absent.
20 He had actually retired. He had been absent for a long time, and Captain
21 Petrovic, one of his assistants, insisted that we should go to Zvornik to
22 get some papers that pertained to finances. I say "insisted" because
23 according to the information that I received from other drivers the day
24 before, it sounded quite unreasonable that one should go to Zvornik
25 taking the Konjevic Polje-Drenica road, in particular the stretch of road
1 from Milici, all the way down to Zvornik -- well, not to Zvornik, but the
2 unsafe part was all the way up to Drenica.
3 He insisted on it, however; and, of course, I did not have the
4 right to refuse to go there, but I spoke my mind. I said it was not safe
5 and I said that we would get killed over those papers, plain and simple.
6 But he didn't take me seriously, and we set off for Zvornik. I commented
7 on it in the vehicle. I said that we were like showbiz people in the
8 car, not as soldiers, soldiers who were using the road where they could
9 expect to be ambushed or encounter combat. But he really persisted, and
10 at the entrance in Miletici -- or, rather, Milici, we were stopped by
11 civilian policeman in a blew uniform, and he told us that it was not safe
12 and the that the road was impassable, that we could not get to Zvornik.
13 But he was really persistent, he wanted us to continue, and this
14 really irritated me even more. So we continued, but we ended our trip in
15 Kasaba at the school building. I don't know whether it was the
16 elementary school or secondary school; I think was the elementary school.
17 But when there was gun fire there, in that area, as we passed by the
18 school, the only thing I could do - because we didn't really have any
19 equipment, we didn't have any weapons or anything - I put the car behind
20 the school building. There was fighting on the hills around the school,
21 and the school building served as some kind of a shelter to my mind. We
22 took shelter there until the situation calmed down a little bit, and then
23 we simply went back.
24 Q. Mr. Klacar, just a few more questions. Did you take General
25 Miletic back from Belgrade
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you remember that at the time when you took him to Belgrade
3 after this, and while the road was still quite, did you go to Belgrade
5 A. I can't be certain. I often went to Belgrade, so going to
7 My going to Belgrade
8 We would go to Belgrade
9 come back on the same day and that was it. You would set out at 8.00,
10 and you would be in the Main Staff in the afternoon. You could go to
12 day during working hours.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
14 questions at this time?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
16 Any of the Defence teams have questions for this witness? I hear
18 Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Thayer:
21 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Nelson Thayer, and I will be
22 asking you a few questions on behalf of the Prosecution.
23 My first question, sir, is: When did you first have any contact
24 with any member of the Defence team for General Miletic?
25 A. August. 19th of August, or something like that, more or less, I
1 met the gentleman here. I think it was the 19th of August, or it I may
2 have been the 15th.
3 Q. And that would have been of 2008 of this year, sir?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And prior to that, were you ever contacted by any members of the
6 Defence team, either telephonically or in person?
7 A. I don't know what Defence team you are referring to. I know the
8 gentleman here, the Counsel. He called me up, and he said he had
9 information that it may be possible that I drove General Miletic to
11 Q. Okay. And what did he tell you, sir? You said that he called
12 you and said that he had information and that it was possible that you
13 drove General Miletic to Belgrade
14 terms of information?
15 A. He asked me whether I had driven General Miletic to Belgrade
16 that was it, in that period of time.
17 Q. Well, when you say that he told you that he had information, what
18 information did he tell you that he had?
19 A. He said he had information that I had driven General Miletic to
21 Q. Did he tell you what the source of that information was?
22 A. No, not specifically.
23 Q. And just to make sure, sir, before August of this year, did you
24 have any contact whatsoever with any member of the Miletic Defence team?
25 I understand you said that you knew the counsel, my learned friend, from
1 the Miletic Defence team and that he contacted you with this information,
2 but did you have any other contact prior to August of 2008?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Let's talk about the actual trip, sir.
5 A. Was it August? You'll allow me to check. My passport, which I
6 got for the first time from Bosnia
7 19th of August. We may have met on the 15th of August. Before that, I
8 think I saw the gentleman a month before. My orientation point is when
9 my passport was issued. Maybe a month. The passport is what I am
10 orienting myself by.
11 Q. Now, let's talk about this -- the actual trip where you went to
13 actually taking trip - you were given this assignment?
14 A. I don't remember the precise date.
15 Q. Can you tell us whether it was the same day or --
16 A. I can't give thank you precise date, that is.
17 Q. Understood. That's not my question, though. I just want to
18 know, for example, were you given the assignment the same day that you
19 drove General Miletic to Belgrade
20 days before? Just give the Court some indication, if you could?
21 A. According to my recollection, on the same day. I received the
22 order on the same day.
23 Q. And do you have any recollection whether it was a weekday or on
24 the weekend, sir?
25 A. Well, no I can't be precise about that. I can't say. I couldn't
1 be sure. I didn't pay attention to that. In wartime, all days were the
2 same, working and non-working alike.
3 Q. And I take it that there was nobody else in the car other than
4 General Miletic, just to be clear?
5 A. No, there wasn't.
6 Q. And during this three hour trip, did you learn what the purpose
7 of this trip was, to transport General Miletic to Belgrade?
8 A. It was the usual sort of officer's leave to visit their families.
9 Q. And if I understood you correctly, you didn't have any other
10 business across the river that day and you returned the same day; is that
12 A. That's correct, yes.
13 Q. Now, during this time in July of 1995, do you recall, sir, that
14 Slobodan Milosevic had imposed an embargo or a blockade between the two
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And are you aware, sir, that in July of 1995 that in order to
18 cross the river into the SRJ, the MUP was notified by the army that army
19 personnel would be crossing?
20 A. Well, that was up to the security organ. As the driver, I didn't
21 have any problems. It was up to the security organ.
22 Q. And do you remember, sir, was it common for drivers like yourself
23 to carry two sets of license plates in their vehicle, one civilian and
24 one military, specifically for the purposes of being able to travel back
25 and forth?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So when you travelled across, you had civilian plates, and you
3 had to switch those plates to go across the river; is that fair to say?
4 A. SS, that was the letters, SS.
5 Q. Now, sir, I want to show you a document.
6 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, if we could block the broadcast
7 of this document. We can talk about it, but it just needs to be not
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That will be taken care of. Thank you.
10 MR. THAYER: And if we could see 65 ter number 04080, please.
11 Q. Sir, you were shown, I think, probably just a slightly different
12 copy of this same document during your proofing session. I am showing
13 you this version because it's a little easier to read, I think, than the
14 copy you were shown. What it is, I think you'll recognise, is - I see
15 you're shaking your head - an intercept that was made by the MUP at an
16 interception site that was operated by the armija or the army of Bosnia
17 and Herzegovina
18 MR. THAYER: If we could scroll down little bit.
19 Q. This continues on the next page. If you look at number 519 down
20 there --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- it says that on 8 July 1995
23 listed there, at 2210 hours, they intercepted this telegram. You were
24 shown this telegram, were you not, sir?
25 A. This here? No.
1 Q. Well, let me talk about it, and we'll see if that refreshes your
2 recollection about being shown it. If we see the heading here, it
3 "General Staff, Army of Republika Srpska," strictly confidential number,
4 and then the date, 8 July, 1995
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, if we go to the next page, do you see the top there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And we don't have an English translation, sir. Can you just read
9 what that says, starting from the top?
10 A. From the very top: "Authorisation for travel to the SRJ,
11 delivered by the MUP --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Delivered to.
2 A. This second page. [In English] Next page.
3 Q. No, the section that you just read, sir?
4 A. [Interpretation] The second page, yes; the first, no.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned that --
6 MR. THAYER: -- actually, we can close out this document and
7 resume broadcast, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll do that. Thank you. Okay.
9 Let's proceed and conclude, Mr. Thayer, please.
10 MR. THAYER:
11 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned that when you travelled, as far as you
12 recall, you didn't have think to carry any documents with you, correct,
13 other than your personal identification, no special documents?
14 A. And also the documents pertaining to the car and the passengers
15 as well.
16 Q. Were you aware that General Miletic on the 8th of July had
17 authorised your travel to Belgrade
18 11th of July 1995, sir?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You told us that when you were in Belgrade, General Miletic
21 called General Tomic and had a conversation. Where was General Tomic at
22 the time, to your knowledge?
23 A. In Meline probably. He was undergoing treatment, most probably
24 in Meline. He was away from the staff, from the headquarters that's in
25 Herceg Novi.
1 Q. And, in July 1995, who was General Miletic's regular driver?
2 A. Milos
3 Q. And do you remember who General Tolimir's regular driver was in
4 July of 1995?
5 A. Mile, his last name escapes me now. His first name was Mile; he
6 lives in Sokolac. Mile, he was a young driver, he was the youngest of
7 all the drivers. He was a regular soldier, and he was the only regular
8 soldier who became a driver. His last name escapes me now. I've known
9 him a long time.
10 Q. And who was General Gvero's regular drive in July of 1995, sir?
11 A. Dragomir Rajak, a professional driver. He was a civilian serving
12 in the army. That was his status, a civilian working in the army.
13 Q. And can we get a spelling for his last name, please, sir.
14 A. Dragomir Rajak, R-a-j-a-k. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. And have you been in any contact with him since the war?
16 A. Since war? No. No, personal contact. I only heard that he
17 lives in Belgrade
18 Q. Just a couple of more questions, sir. Do you know who drove
19 General Miletic back from Belgrade
20 A. No.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... but do you know who did?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. You told us about the first trip during which you drove General
24 Miletic to Miljevina?
25 A. Miljevina, yes, yes.
1 Q. Can you tell us, if you remember, what the purpose of that trip
3 A. To visit his mother, I think.
4 Q. And do you remember when that was?
5 A. Sometime about 15 days before going to Belgrade, in that period.
6 I can't be precise, that's impossible, but in that period.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
8 A. Thank you, too.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Petrusic, any --
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I have no additional questions,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We have finished with your testimony, Mr. Klacar,
13 which means that you are free to go. I wish to thank you for having come
14 over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe journey back home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: No documents, I take it.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Thayer.
20 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just the one intercept. That's 4080,
21 and if that may be place placed under seal, please.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Any objections?
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Other Defence teams, I take it you are not
25 interested in this, basically. All right.
1 So that concludes that witness. Is the next witness present?
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, Your Honour, but we
3 have no other witness for today.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We heard three witnesses anyway, today.
5 So is there any other housekeeping matters or other business that you
6 would like to? I see Mr. Vanderpuye entering the courtroom with good or
7 bad tidings. Do you have any you would wish to raise.
8 MR. THAYER: No, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then we stand adjourned until tomorrow.
10 Tomorrow, please do remember that the sitting is in the afternoon at
11 2.15. Thank you.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.
13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of
14 2008, at 2.15 p.m.