1 Monday, 12 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.22 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody, and especially to you,
6 Madam Registrar. If you could kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you so much.
11 All the accused are present. The Prosecution today is
12 Mr. Thayer, Mr. Vanderpuye. Is there anyone else behind the column or
13 not? No. What happened to Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I believe before we broke, he
15 indicated he wouldn't be here for the first day. We do expect him back,
16 however, tomorrow, and perhaps around the second session he should be in
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. I just ask you for the record.
19 That's all.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And then from the Defence teams, I notice the
22 absence of Mr. Nikolic. That's it, I think. Mr. Lazarevic is here, yes.
23 Mr. Bourgon is here. That's it.
24 So I hope you have recovered your energies and that you also had
25 some time to enjoy together with your respective families. We are
1 reconvened now to what seems to be the tail end of the evidentiary stage
2 of the trial.
3 In the course of the week, you will be approached by our senior
4 legal officer to get some information -- further information, more than
5 you have given already, so that we can plan the schedule accordingly for
6 the next two months.
7 That applies also to the Prosecution, especially if there is a
8 notation to ask for rebuttal and so on and so forth. So we need to plan,
9 and we prefer to plan -- to have the information beforehand and plan
10 ahead, rather than wait and see what happens later.
11 Okay. Today we continue with the last witness of the
12 Miletic Defence team. Are there any preliminaries? None? None. Your
13 estimate for the time -- for the time being, Ms. Fauveau?
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe that 16 hours should be
15 necessary, but I can tell you later during the day.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: So you still maintain the 16 hours that you had
17 asked for.
18 I take it you asked for 12 hours, roughly.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President, but that will
20 vary depending upon --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously. I'm just asking so we plan ahead.
22 All right, let's bring the -- Mr. Thayer, I'm sorry.
23 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
25 MR. THAYER: And happy new year to you and Your Honours. And
1 happy new year to everybody.
2 Mr. President, we did have a very brief preliminary that I
3 alerted our friends to. With all the mirth and merry-making over the
4 holidays with the OTP, we missed the deadline for the Pandurevic motion
5 to amend its 65 ter list of witnesses and exhibits.
6 THE COURT: We are aware of that, yes.
7 MR. THAYER: We are prepared to file a written response that we
8 do not object to the application. However, we would need to seek leave
9 to reply out of time from the Trial Chamber in order to do that. We've
10 done it both ways. We've provided an oral response to some of these
11 motions in the past, and other times we've filed a written response.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it short. I don't think that
13 Mr. Pandurevic -- Mr. Haynes will object to that.
14 MR. HAYNES: Absolutely not.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: What about you, Mr. Ostojic?
16 MR. OSTOJIC: No, Your Honour, thank you.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, so permissioned granted, you can
18 register your non-objection orally, and we can proceed.
19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the motion is granted, basically.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are most welcome to this Tribunal. You
25 have been summoned as an expert witness by the Defence team for
1 General Miletic.
2 Your testimony is going to take quite some time. I think that
3 you should at least earmark the entire week that we've just started, and
4 I wouldn't be surprised if we go into the next one as well. Much depends
5 on how much you succeed in keeping your answers brief and to the point.
6 If you try to answer the question -- the whole question and nothing but
7 the question, the chances are that you will go home earlier than
8 expected. If you beat around the bush and you go around in circles and
9 give lengthy answers when they could be shorter, you will be here for
10 longer than I have told you.
11 Before you start giving evidence, our Rules require you to make a
12 solemn declaration to the effect that you will be testifying the truth.
13 The text has just been handed to you now. Please read it out aloud, and
14 that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: SLOBODAN KOSOVAC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Kosovac, do you have a rank? Would you like us
20 to address you with any particular rank?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind any way you wish. You
22 can call me "Mr. Kosovac" or any other way you want.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Please make yourself comfortable.
24 Madame Fauveau will be asking you questions, and we'll follow up from
1 Madame Fauveau.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Examination by Ms. Fauveau:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please give us your name and surname?
5 A. Slobodan Kosovac.
6 Q. Could you briefly tell us about your education background and
7 what school you completed?
8 A. I completed grammar school, which was the highest form of
9 civilian education, and then the military academy and became an officer
10 of the JNA, and then the Command Staff Academy
11 the Masters of Arts in civilian life. Then I was promoted to colonel,
12 and then I finished the School of National Defence
13 school in the army, equaling a doctorate; and this was a precondition for
14 me to become a general.
15 Q. Could you tell us about your career and tell us the positions
16 that you held?
17 A. I'll try and be brief.
18 In my career, I served in various units of the army, in the
19 General Staff, in the Ministry, and later on -- or, rather, now I'm a
20 civilian in the army units. I served as a commander. I served in the
21 rocket units of the anti-aircraft defence, and also I was the chief --
22 the assistant chief of the commander for education, and the
23 General staff, I worked in the development, organisation, mobilisation
24 and military duties; and I performed duties from the chief of department,
25 chief of section, and assistant chief of General Staff in the Ministry.
1 I was the assistant in the Ministry for human resources and the executive
2 director of the Ministry.
3 When I was retired, I found a job, a civilian job, and I'm most
4 engaged in strategy, man [as interpreted] and management.
5 Q. Have you published any books, documents, or papers?
6 A. In my career, I've published a number of professional papers,
7 books, and degree papers. My professional papers dealt with military
8 obligation, organisation, management, and the civilian control over the
9 military. My papers have been published by non-governmental
10 organisations, such as the Atlantic Council of Serbia, and they have also
11 been published by the General Staff, the Ministry. And the last papers
12 I've published dealt with the organisation of companies in Serbia.
13 Q. You've been hired by the Defence of General Miletic to write a
14 report. Could you briefly tell us what was the purpose of this report?
15 THE INTERPRETER: What is the purpose of this report?
16 Interpreter's correction.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was first briefed and then asked
18 to write about the role of General Miletic while he served in the Army of
19 Republika Srpska, with a special reference to the duties that he
20 performed during a given period of time. Based on that, I analysed
21 General Miletic's post, his involvement, his links with the environment,
22 i.e., with the environment of his post, and I also analysed whether
23 General Miletic had other duties that went beyond his post. And as a
24 result of that, I've provided my expert report.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Could you tell us the sources you used to draft this report?
2 A. I've used a number of sources. My main source was the source
3 that I received from you, from the Defence. I also used materials that
4 determined the position and the role of the organ that General Miletic
5 worked for. I also used documents of the Yugoslav People's Army, as well
6 as the documents of the Army of Yugoslavia. I also used the search
7 engines on the internet, and I compared the army with other modern
8 militaries, such as NATO. I also used interviews with my colleagues, be
9 it from the Army of Yugoslavia, or the Army of Republika Srpska, or even
10 the militaries of the former Yugoslav People's Army. I interviewed
11 high-ranking officers from all of these militaries.
12 Q. I would now like to show you page 5 of your report. It is
13 document 5D759. I'm interested in paragraph 3 on page 5 of both
14 versions. In this paragraph, you wrote:
15 "Despite the fact that everything occurred over 3 [as
16 interpreted] years, they could be seen as dynamic."
17 What do you mean exactly?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Thirteen years. Interpreter's correction.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now that I am looking at this
20 paragraph, I can say that the event took place almost 14 years ago,
21 because I wrote the report almost a year ago. What I meant was to draw a
22 comparison between life and expert report. In life, new documents appear
23 every day. There's no indication to prove that there will be no new
24 documents, that the public and media are discovering new events.
25 I would like to remind everybody of a series of events that were
1 discovered last year from the point of view of the 5th Corps of the Army
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I would also like to remind everybody that many
3 things are being divulged as we speak. For example, people have been --
4 or remains have been found 15 years after the events. So every expert
5 report that strives to be objective must be open and must be capable of
6 being built up based on new facts, and that may be built into such
8 JUDGE KWON: Madame Fauveau-Ivanovic, before we go further, can I
9 know when the General retired?
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Yes.
12 tell us when you retired?
13 A. 2005. 15 September 2005.
14 JUDGE KWON: What position did you hold at the time of war in
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1995, I was just about to finish
17 the School of National Defence.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Maybe to make things clearer, could you tell us which army you
21 belonged to from 1992 to 1995?
22 A. From 1992 to the end of my career, I was in the
23 Army of Yugoslavia.
24 Q. And to finish this issue, finish with this issue, could you tell
25 us when you were promoted to general?
1 A. I became general on the 16th of June, 2000, and
2 lieutenant general on the 16th of June, 2004.
3 Q. I would now like to come back to your report, still page 5. On
4 paragraph 2, you said that it is impossible to analyse the events of 1995
5 without taking into account the events and behaviours of what had
6 happened earlier in that area from 1992 to 1995.
7 I believe there's a mistake in the text, anyway. It's
8 January 1st, 1992, to August 1995.
9 Could you tell us why the events that occurred in this area are
10 absolutely essential to understand what exactly happened in 1995?
11 A. First of all, the events that took place in this area, i.e., the
12 most important thing is the clash between the two militaries, in order to
13 analyse a clash between the two militaries, you can't analyse that moment
14 in isolation. How far back will you go is mostly determined by the way
15 these militaries are organised. Because of the way these militaries were
16 organised, you have to go back to the year 1992. That's one aspect.
17 The second aspect, which is very important for my analysis, is
18 the following: No single event happens in isolation, on its own. You
19 have to determine the causality or you have to analyse the causes and the
20 consequences in order to arrive at the beginning of the event that would
21 happen later. And these two elements made me go back in time and
22 research a longer period than the one that was given to me as the task to
24 Q. For the transcript, there is no -- there's no mistake in the
25 report. It is an error in my notes. It is from January 1995 to
1 August 1995.
2 I would now like to start with the beginning, if I can say so,
3 and show you Exhibit P25. This is the minutes of the Assembly meeting of
4 the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina in May 12, 1992. I would like
5 to see page 12 in the B/C/S version and page 13 in the English version.
6 I'm interested in the paragraph that's lower on the page, the last
7 paragraph on what we have on the screen.
8 In this paragraph, we see that the Presidency, the Government,
9 the Council for National Security, have formulated strategic priorities,
10 i.e., strategic goals for the Serbian people. According to this
11 document, were you able to determine whether the army was actually
12 involved in the determination and the formulation of these strategic
14 A. This was created before the 12th of May, as far as I could see.
15 Before the 12th of May, there was no Army of Republika Srpska; hence,
16 theoretically, it was not possible for the military to be involved in the
17 creation of the strategic goals.
18 Q. According to the conclusions found on page 1 of this document,
19 from page 1 to 5 of this document, could you tell us whether you were
20 able to determine whether the strategic goals which had been presented
21 during this Assembly were actually adopted?
22 A. The conclusions of this meeting was -- were of some interest to
23 me because of the analyses of the causes and consequences of the
24 organisation of the state and the organisation of the military. I
25 believe that I have studied them in detail, and based on that, I can
1 state that according to the minutes, the strategic goals were not adopted
2 at the time.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we have page 2 of the B/C/S
4 version, which corresponds to page 1 in the English version. Could we
5 have this on the screen, please. It's the last paragraph in English, and
6 regarding the B/C/S version, this is the second paragraph of Article 1,
7 which refers to the setting up of a working group aimed at drawing a map
8 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Q. Have you ever found such a map?
10 A. No, I've not found such a map. I have not even found any
11 indication of a working version of such a map.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 14 for the
13 English and page 13 for the B/C/S. I'm interested in the paragraph
14 discussing the third strategic goal.
15 Q. Could you please read it? It is the third paragraph on the B/C/S
16 page and the second one on the English page.
17 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this.
18 Q. This third strategic goal deals with the Drina Valley. Could you
19 tell us exactly what is the importance of the Drina Valley for the
20 Republika Srpska?
21 A. The Drina Valley was a strategic goal for Republika Srpska as
22 well as for Bosnia-Herzegovina. However, there were two different types
23 of interests involved. The goal of Republika Srpska was to prevent this
24 area from being a border between the peoples in Republika Srpska and in
25 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The strategic goal of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina with respect to this area is to isolate it and to
2 create a border there between the Serbian people and the Federal Republic
3 of Yugoslavia. And the latter strategic goal was partly shared by the
4 Croatian Community in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 Q. Militarily-wise, could you tell us whether this strategic
6 objective, as written in these minutes, included the movement of the
7 Muslim population living in the Drina Valley, the Muslim population?
8 A. Irrespective of the fact that the Trial Chamber has asked me to
9 be up to the point, I have to provide a somewhat longer answer at the
11 First of all, there's no single military document that can be
12 created based on a proclamation, on an idea, on constitution or some
13 other documents. Every military document has to start with a task that
14 is given to the military, and the task arises from the law, directives at
15 the national level.
16 Second of all, even if somebody were to formulate a strategic
17 goal, as it is, and try to incorporate it into the directive or any other
18 document, it is very precise in itself; and it does not imply any status
19 quo in regulating the situation once the area is conquered.
20 Q. Can we now move back to page 13 in English, page 12 for the
21 B/C/S. In the B/C/S version, I'm interested in the bottom of the page.
22 In English, it's the third paragraph from the bottom. At the end of this
23 page in B/C/S, we see the first strategic objective, which is defined as
24 separation from the other two national communities, separation of states.
25 Now, tell us, military-wise, whether this strategic objective
1 included moving the Muslim population out of the territories controlled
2 by Republika Srpska.
3 A. The question whether this implies the movement of population is
4 speculation. The separation of states implies the creation of two states
5 and everything that remains in these two states. I don't see a
6 possibility for the separation of state to imply movement of people.
7 People had rights in the former Yugoslavia, and that right was
8 honoured from Slovenia until the very end. And as far as I could
9 understand, this is what the representatives of Republika Srpska also
10 insisted on very strongly.
11 Q. You already answered my next question, but I would like to be
12 very accurate. So could you tell us exactly what was the position of the
13 Croats in Bosnia?
14 And in the meanwhile, I would like to show you also
15 document 5D546. I need the first page in both versions. This is a
16 document from the Regional Community of Herzegovina and Travnik, and the
17 paragraph starting right under "Conclusions," at the end of this
18 paragraph it says, and I quote:
19 [In English] "The Croatian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 finally has to start conducting the decisive and tactic policy which
21 should bring about the realisation of our eternal dream, a joint Croatian
23 [Interpretation] This document dates back to November 12, 1991.
24 Could you tell us whether this was the objective of the Croatian people?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
2 Q. This objective of the Croatian people, is this objective of the
3 Croatian people different from the first objective of the Serbian people
4 that we have just seen in the previous document?
5 A. In the previous answer, the implication was of the people in
6 Slovenia, Croatia and elsewhere, and this applies to the people in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is a notorious fact that Bosnia-Herzegovina was
8 often called a little Yugoslavia, and there were four strong groups in
9 that state: Muslim, Croat, Serb, and the fourth group were Yugoslavs,
10 and they were very strong. When the former Yugoslavia broke up, the
11 three prevalent peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Muslims, Serbs and Croats,
12 had the same goal, but expressed in three different ways. The Serbs
13 wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
14 and to remain as a state in the former Yugoslavia, and they based their
15 goals on that. If Bosnia-Herzegovina were to be separated, they wanted
16 the Republika Srpska to be separated as well and be joined with the
17 Federal Yugoslavia.
18 Muslims had their different goal, and Croats insist, which is
19 visible in this document, on two steps. The first step would be to
20 create -- or, rather, to separate Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia and
21 to be independent, and the second step would be for Croatia -- for
22 Croatian people to form their banovina which would be joined with the
23 Republic of Croatia, which means that the goals of Serbs and Croats
24 overlapped, but from different directions, one from the left direction
25 and the other from the right direction.
1 Q. I would now like to show you some documents from the army of the
2 Army of Republika Srpska from that period of time, 1992, and first of all
3 I'd like to show you 5D962.
4 While we're waiting for this document, this is an order from the
5 Main Staff from 23rd of June, 1992.
6 In this document, I'd like to show you point number 2. This is
7 page 2 both in B/C/S and in English. Could you please read this item,
8 the task of the Army of Republika Srpska?
9 A. If I look at this paragraph 2, I can tell that the Army of
10 Serbian Republic of BH received a total of six tasks, which is only to be
11 expected at a time of war. The first is to deblock roads. The second is
12 for additional mobilisation, that's what they refer to it as, to engage
13 all able-bodied Serbian population. Mobilisation, additional
14 mobilisation, implies involvement under the law and status in the Army of
15 Republika Srpska. The third task being maintaining the roads that were
16 there already. Task number 4 is to prevent a breakthrough from the
17 Spreca towards the Drina. Number 6 is to secure other roads from
18 [indiscernible]-Han Pijesak-Vlasenica, and that's number 6, yes. That's
19 the other road. Number 5 is to fend off and repel enemy forces from this
20 line. Yes, a total of six tasks.
21 Q. Now, again, from a military standpoint, when a soldier receives
22 such a task, is the moving of the Muslim population something that is
23 included as part of the task, as part of those six tasks?
24 A. The Army of Republika Srpska or, for that matter, the JNA or, for
25 that matter, any of the armies that emerged from the JNA throughout these
1 areas never had any tasks, organs or, indeed, manpower to move any
2 population at all. If you don't have the tool, you can't do the job.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we please now move to document
4 5D1199. This is the order from the Main Staff from the Army of
5 Republika Srpska, dated 12th August 1992. This is about the region of
6 the Drina River.
7 Q. I would like to show you page 2, both in the English and in the
8 B/C/S versions, and this is still item number 2, which is about the tasks
9 given to the Army of Republika Srpska. In English, it's at the very
10 bottom of this page, and then it moves on to page number 3.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This task, amongst others, highlights the protection of the
13 population. How do you, as a military person, read this paragraph? To
14 which population does this paragraph refer?
15 A. The protection of the population was something that was done in
16 the JNA, and this was something for everyone who was involved in the
17 fighting, and there was fighting going on here. Everyone involved had to
18 look after the population. Now, how do they go about this? There has to
19 be an early warning about any combat operations. They should control the
20 firing in order to keep any collateral damage down. It's about the ways
21 in which combat operations are performed and brought to an end. This is
22 an ongoing task for all JNA units. Whenever there are operations in
23 areas such as these, one has to look after the population. There was
24 never a task that entailed moving any population group in any way at all
25 or based on anything at all.
1 Q. And how do you understand the last part of this task, which talks
2 about humanitarian aid and supply of humanitarian aid that is given to
3 the people in all the endangered areas? Of what people -- what people
4 are they talking about in this particular task?
5 A. If you read the task as phrased here, as it relates to
6 humanitarian aid, you see this thing about the legal and planned
7 distribution of humanitarian aid. Then at first you think that the
8 phrasing is somewhat verbose, because it might be phrased as follows
9 "distribution of humanitarian aid," and that's that. Nevertheless, at
10 the time we see increasingly these instances where humanitarian aid was
11 abused in a number of ways.
12 "Legal distribution of humanitarian aid" meant making sure that
13 such humanitarian aid as was distributed was real. "Planned" means that
14 distribution was based on a plan. There is no order here concerning
15 humanitarian aid for any particular population group. This applied
16 equally to all the population that was there.
17 Q. At the bottom of this page 2, there is a list of objectives for
18 these activities. And then if you move on to page 3, and in English this
19 is actually page 4, throughout this whole page in this order, there is an
20 offer for disarming -- an offer that is made to the Muslim population for
21 disarmament. Could you please explain what it means, "disarmament of the
23 A. "Disarmament of the population" in this case must be seen as
24 twofold. One thing is the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, it had a
25 theory on people [as interpreted]. There were different ways people were
1 armed in order to preserve the integrity of the Socialist Federative
2 Republic of Yugoslavia. From that perspective, anyone in the possession
3 of weapons was now called on to surrender their weapons, because there
4 was a unified military now that was made legal, comprising the Army of
5 Republika Srpska and the police.
6 On the other hand, this disarmament and call that was issued also
7 had the following reasons. This was at the time when many, many units of
8 the BH Army and many of their members were dressing up as civilians of
9 women, disguising themselves in order to perform incursions and fight and
10 attack. There is plenty of evidence indicating this. Therefore, the
11 call was for both to disarm.
12 Q. Well, there's a slight mistake on page 17, line 18. What it says
13 in the transcript is "the theory of the people," but I think you talked
14 about the theory of the armed people.
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. In the following paragraph, they talk about mopping up the
17 villages. Can you please explain, from a military standpoint, what it
18 means to mop up villages? This is somewhere in the middle of the second
20 A. In the military sense, to mop up a village is something that is
21 familiar to any military in the world. It means to eliminate all and any
22 enemy soldiers, to eliminate any weapons that are still around and place
23 them under control, as well as ammunition and any military equipment that
24 is still around. That's what it means, to mop up a village.
25 Q. Now, in the military terminology, mopping up something, that
1 includes the transfer of a civilian population or moving a civilian
3 A. This is pure speculation. I've never come across that, and I'm
4 not sure where this sort of speculation arises from.
5 Q. I would now like to show you P29, Exhibit P29. This is a
6 directive from the Main Staff from 19th of November, 1992.
7 Actually, what I'm interested in here is the task that was given
8 to the Drina Corps by this directive. In English, it's on page 5, and in
9 B/C/S, on page 11 of the document.
10 This paragraph is hard to read. The only sentence that I'm
11 really interested in as part of this task is that according to this
12 directive, the Drina Corps had, as a task, to force the enemy out of the
13 Birac, Zepa, and Gorazde areas, together with the Muslim population.
14 Now, you've already briefly touched upon the military terminology
15 and the term "population" as part of this terminology, as part of the
16 Yugoslav theory of the armed people, but could you please explain in
17 greater detail how, in this particular context, you construe this
19 A. This is not really legible, the portion that refers to the
20 Drina Corps, but one can sort of make out what it says. The part of the
21 question that you asked me shouldn't be separated from the whole, because
22 down here I see it says "first offer the possibility of disarmament" and
23 all the other alternatives that were given to the Muslim population in
24 the area.
25 The essence of this task is as follows: Any army, when at war,
1 has the foremost task to beat the enemy. The enemy is beaten in three
2 possible ways.
3 A, the enemy is crushed; B, the enemy surrenders and is captured;
4 and, C, the enemy is driven away from the area in question. And this is
5 the alternative that is offered here for the task to be performed.
6 Bearing in mind the experience that arises here, I would point out an
7 anomaly. The 19th of November, 1992, that's directive number 4.
8 A total of four directives, roughly, over a five-month period
9 issued by the Army of Republika Srpska, which means there was a great
10 deal of experience at work here. They realised that the civilian
11 population was often being used as a shield or as a component of the
12 BH Army, and then a possibility was offered for those who were disarmed
13 and who accepted the government that was in place to remain in the area,
14 which was a perfectly legal thing to do and a perfectly fair thing to do.
15 Q. We shall talk later about events which have taken place from 1993
16 to 1995, but can you please tell us briefly, very briefly, if the events
17 which took place in Srebrenica in July 1995, in Srebrenica and Zepa, can
18 be somehow connected to this directive number 4?
19 A. In order to link up any elements from two different directives,
20 we must first know why a directive came about. There are two primary
21 causes for something like this to come about. One is the situation on
22 the ground and the other is the putative objective. No directive, at
23 least as far as military theory goes, links up with any other directive.
24 Each directive is self-sufficient. It contains a job. It's completed or
25 not. If not, then it's completed in a different way, depending on the
1 causes, obviously.
2 If you look at the situation on the ground, the situation that
3 prevailed at the time, directive number 4, directive number 7 - I mean
4 1995 - one realises there is nothing like that. There are two entirely
5 different situations on the ground. If you look at the situation that
6 prevailed in the armed forces, these are entirely different situations.
7 If you look at the objectives that were set, these are two entirely
8 different objectives. There would be no logic in the linking up of these
9 two directives in any sense at all.
10 Q. I would like to show you now another document that dates from
11 1993, which is linked to directive number 4. This is document 5D1323,
12 and this is the analysis from the Drina Corps of the operations carried
13 out on the basis of directives 4 and 5.
14 Could we please have page 4 in English and page 3 in B/C/S.
15 Right at the bottom of this page, you have the objectives and
16 tasks of the operation, operation on the basis of directive 4 for the
17 Drina Corps. Could you please have a look at the tasks to be performed
18 by the Drina Corps?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In light of your previous answer, maybe this question is
21 irrelevant, but, however, in light of objective and the tasks of the
22 operation, as understood by the Drina Corps, is the transfer of
23 population something that was included in those tasks?
24 A. What we see here is an excellent piece of analysis. This is a
25 great link between this document and directive. There are certain
1 features here, but any army in the world knows that whenever an activity
2 is completed, there needs to be some analysis of that activity.
3 If you look at this analysis of the tasks, one sees very clearly
4 what the tasks were for the Army of Republika Srpska in the Drina Corps,
5 purely military tasks that they were facing, and these tasks were then
7 Q. Just before we move to a very different topic, I'd like to show
8 you page 2 in B/C/S and page 2 in English as well, I think. Towards the
9 middle of the page, it reads, in English -- it's at the bottom of what we
10 see on the screen, so it reads:
11 [In English] "The planning operations was organised and planned
12 with the involvement wherever possible of the commanders of subordinate
13 units. Decisions to engage forces in tasks that have been assigned were
14 adopted, in most cases, through the so-called command's complete method
15 of work."
16 [Interpretation] Later on, we shall talk about the various
17 working methods, command's working methods. Now, at this stage, I would
18 only like to ask you if you can say, from what you have seen in your
19 research, what was the working method that was usually used in the units
20 of the Army of Republika Srpska?
21 A. Any army, including the Army of Republika Srpska, used the normal
22 method, a normal method means a complete method, and then the commanders
23 are consulted. The use of any other methods would be exceptional and
24 only for exceptional situations. These are driven by necessity, method,
25 and other methods like that, and that's what the sentence would indicate.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, in light of the
2 fact that we started a little late, what time do you think we will have
3 the break?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: My idea was to have the break as scheduled, at
5 10.30; in other words, in a couple of minutes. But if you're dealing
6 with a topic that will take you a little bit further, we can take it a
7 little bit further. It's up to you.
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to move on to
9 another topic, so it would be appropriate if we could take the break now.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we will have a 25-minute break now. Thank
12 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Madame, go ahead.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. I would now like to talk about the establishment of the Army of
17 Republika Srpska.
18 Can you please show the witness Exhibit D754, please.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 5D754.
20 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This is the decision pertaining to the formation of the Army of
22 the Serbian -- the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. Now, in Article 1 it reads:
24 [In English] "The existing territorial defence units and staffs
25 shall be renamed as commands and units of the army, whose organisation
1 and establishment shall be determined by the president of the Republic."
2 [Interpretation] Now, this is a decision dated the 12th of May,
3 1992. Is this decision really the basis for the establishment of the
4 Army of Republika Srpska?
5 A. Yes. This is a prerequisite for any state to establish an army.
6 Q. Pursuant to Article 3 of this decision, General Ratko Mladic was
7 to be appointed as commander of the Main Staff of the Army of
8 Republika Srpska. Did General Mladic in the Army of Republika Srpska
9 have the Supreme Command and authority?
10 A. It's not easy to see that, based on this decision, but I will try
11 to shed light on that.
12 General Mladic was commander of the Main Staff of the Army of
13 Republika Srpska, but he was therefore commander of the Army of
14 Republika Srpska. He was the supreme authority in that army, and he was
15 responsible for everything that the army was doing for everything that
16 was going on. Nevertheless, General Mladic did have a commander who was
17 above him, the supreme commander, who had the authority to exercise
18 command over that army in keeping with all the military and other rules.
19 Q. I would now like to show you the Constitution of
20 Republika Srpska. This is Exhibit 5D752.
21 So this is the Constitution from December 1992, and I would like
22 to have page 8 in B/C/S and page 18 in English.
23 In Article 106, it says that the president of the Republic
24 commands with the Army of Republika Srpska at times of peace and war.
25 Now, who were the -- what were the authorities of the president of the
1 Republic as compared with that of the Main Staff?
2 A. I think there's another section that Article 106 comprises.
3 I think there's something else too --
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... show the following page in
5 B/C/S, i.e., page 19 -- sorry, page 9, and this goes throughout the whole
7 A. This is the type of army and the type of command where the army
8 is placed directly under the supreme commander. And based on the
9 previous paragraph, an enormous authority is given to the supreme
10 commander. When I say "an enormous amount of authority," I mean the
11 civilian authorities were under too much of a burden, given this
12 phrasing. But this is a practice that occurs all over the world and can
13 be considered as normal.
14 You can see here that the president of the Republic promotes or
15 dismisses the military officers. It's all within his authority, in
16 keeping with the law. He sets up military courts and exercises command
17 over the army. When one exercises command over the army, then one knows
18 that one is responsible for the army, from the planning stage all the way
19 up to the control stage. All of the command basis are in the hands of
20 the Republic [as interpreted]; the planning, the organisation, the
21 control, the personnel policies, and all the supervision.
22 Q. I would now like to show you Exhibit 5D757.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I am sorry to interrupt. I just
25 wondered if the witness could slow down a little bit. I hear the
1 translation is being rushed and it's a little difficult for me to keep
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. I think that's
4 the case and if we could slow down, not too particularly, I mean it's the
5 witness. What happens here generally is what you say needs to be
6 translated into English and into French, and that is not an easy job. So
7 if you could slow down a little bit. Yes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] May I just bring a correction to
11 the transcript. This is page 25 and line 8 and 9. I think you said that
12 all the functions of command were in the hands of the president of the
13 Republic. The word "president" is not shown in the transcript.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, the exhibit that is now on the screen is the order from the
17 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska from 18th of August, 1992,
18 about the establishment and the organisation of the Army of Republika
19 Srpska. Now, there are just a few things on which I'd like to focus in
20 this particular order.
21 First of all, this order refers to a decision by the president of
22 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina from 15th of June, 1992, and then
23 it refers to information number 111.901.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Correction of the interpreter, 111.900.
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Before asking you a question, I would like to see that in your
2 report. There is a paragraph 45, which refers to this formation and at
3 some point, you use the acronym "LRF." Can you please explain to us what
4 this formation 111.900 is about and then what this "LRF" acronym means?
5 Now, this paragraph 45 that I'm referring to is on page 17 of the
6 B/C/S version and on page 22 of the English version. This is not this
7 exhibit, it's the other exhibit, but I don't think it's necessary to show
8 it. This is Exhibit 5D759 of the expert report.
9 A. In order to understand how an army is organised, and based on how
10 an army is organised in order to understand the authorities, rights, and
11 responsibilities of an officer or any person who is part of that system,
12 I had to first analyse how an army was organised from scratch.
13 In the previous diagram, we saw an order to organise the army.
14 Its preamble invokes a decision by the president of the Republic
15 of Srpska. It's a decision that I had never seen, knowing, nevertheless,
16 that between the Constitution and the order to organise an army, there is
17 always a decision by the supreme commander called "the foundations of the
18 organisation of an army," or something like that, one may therefore
19 assume that a document like that was never found. One can also infer,
20 with an almost 100 percent probability, given the fact that the army was
21 functioning, that the command did exercise control over the army, that
22 there was such a thing as a supreme commander. There was the defence
23 ministry, and the whole order was complied with.
24 There was this order to organise the army, which also defined the
25 Main Staff of the Army of the Republika Srpska. The organisation or the
1 structure of the Main Staff of the Army of the Republika Srpska is
2 defined by a book that is called "Establishment." The book is shown over
3 there. It had a number. I don't quite remember what that number was.
4 This book called "Establishment" is a document defining with precision
5 the structure of an organisational unit, its manpower and manning level,
6 their hierarchy, their subordination, and it also defines or determines
7 elements that such an establishment post carries. It also determines any
8 personal weapons that belong to that establishment post. The
9 abbreviation "LRF3" is a form that is used to write up this
10 establishment. The abbreviation stands for "Personal wartime
11 establishment, form number 3."
12 At the time in the Army of Republika Srpska, one used the same
13 type of documents as in the Army of Yugoslavia. Somewhere around that
14 time, the forms were changed. Therefore, if you look at the
15 establishment book, and this is something that has been submitted, you
16 will see that sometimes you will find "LRF3" and in some other places you
17 will find "LRF9."
18 However, in terms of their structure, the forms are identical,
19 making sure that the establishment could always be understood in the same
21 Q. May I now show you this book of establishment. This is 5D758,
22 and this exhibit unfortunately has not been translated. It's of poor
23 quality. Actually, this is a form.
24 Now, this document which you now can see, is this about this
25 establishment you just talked about?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Right. Can we now show to the
3 witness page 13 of this document. This document has not been translated,
4 and I would now therefore ask you to explain what these different columns
5 are and what they mean. In other words, what can you see in the first
7 A. These columns ensure that complete information is provided on the
8 organisation in the establishment. It would be easier to explain if we
9 could zoom out a little bit.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we have a smaller version,
12 A. Yes, like this, that's fine. In the first column is the name of
13 the post. This is the exact name of the establishment post, and each one
14 has a code. This means that job descriptions can be provided by means of
15 a code, so no organisation can invent its own posts. The names of the
16 organisational units at a lower level are also included in the columns,
17 so each post is precisely described, and no other job description can be
18 used other than the one described here in the establishment, because
19 based on the title of the post, the competences of the appropriate
20 commander are also described in the establishment.
21 In the next column, we have the number of posts. If desk
22 officer, for example -- there are three desk officers somewhere, then we
23 have the number 3 here, and then the military/evidentiary specialty or
24 the occupational specialty describes the training that is needed for the
25 particular post or job description. There are five numbers. The first
1 numbers -- the first two numbers refer to whether someone is a private,
2 or an officer, or a non-commissioned officer. If there is a 3, it has to
3 be an officer, if there is a 2 it has to be a non-commissioned officer.
4 Then the next numbers refer to the branch of service, and then -- or the
5 arm of service, in fact, and then we have the training and education
6 needed. For example, we can see that the person has to be an officer,
7 that he can belong to any arm of service, and that he has to have the
8 national --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness slow down, please?
10 A. He has to have the National Defence School training or education.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. General, please slow down a little bit.
12 Thank you.
13 By the way, do you speak in English at all, do you understand
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed, Ms. Fauveau.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the rank, there is the column
18 "Position group." That is an element designating the rank and level of
19 the commander, and this is used to determine the salary later on.
20 Then the next two columns refer to weapons, personal or common
21 weapons, joint weapons that belong to that establishment post. So we can
22 see here clearly that the commander is entitled to a pistol. Then there
23 are some other numbers which do not belong to the establishment, but were
24 written in by whoever was using the document.
25 And then we have "Transport," means of transport of vehicles,
1 whether a trailer is required, livestock, and main means of
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
5 these groups were determined?
6 A. The groups of positions or posts were established by law. The
7 law regulated that every post is described inter alia by the position
8 group. The number of the position group, the smaller it is, the more
9 complex the post and the higher level the post. So here we can see the
10 commander has the position group 2. The disposition of the position
11 groups for the other establishment posts is defined by special criteria.
12 Nowhere in the documentation have I found the defined criteria.
13 However, when this is compared to the disposition of the position
14 groups in the Army of Republika Srpska with the positions that I actually
15 found, I concluded that the same criterion was used as in the Army of
16 Yugoslavia. This criterion ensures that throughout the army, there is a
17 single way of defining the character of every post according to its
18 position in the army.
19 Q. And just before we move to the law about the army, you said that
20 the position group for the commander is 2. Can you please say -- can you
21 please read from this document what is the position group for the head of
22 the main -- of the staff, for the staff head?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, Chief of Staff, interpreter's
25 A. There is no chief of the Main Staff. There is the chief of the
1 staff of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. It's a little
2 bit complicated, but the hierarchy of the units and the sequence of units
3 has been respected here. If you look at the organisational unit staff,
4 the Chief of Staff, who is the deputy of the commander, has position
5 group 3. He has to be a general, and he can be from any arm of service
6 or any service, but he has to be an officer.
7 Q. Below this part, it mentions the administration in charge of
8 operational affairs and education. Can you read the position group or
9 the head of administration in charge of operational affairs and
11 A. To facilitate understanding, I will read all the elements to you.
12 The chief of the Administration for Operational Affairs and
13 Education is an officer from an arm of service who has the
14 National Defence School and who can be granted the rank of a colonel or a
15 major general, and according to some criteria, I would say that this
16 belongs to the sixth position group. It could be the fifth or the sixth,
17 but I think that according to the criteria, it would be the sixth group.
18 Q. I would now like to show you Exhibit 5D753, which is the law
19 pertaining to the Army of Republika Srpska. This is a law dated from 1st
20 of June 1992. I would like to have article 179, which is on page 17 in
21 B/C/S and page 67 in English.
22 Paragraph 2 gives a number of criteria in order to ascertain the
23 position groups, and in paragraph 1, which is on the previous page in the
24 English version, it says how the salary of officers is determined. Now,
25 one sees in paragraph 2 -- paragraph 2 mentions the tasks granted to an
1 officer given to his position, his responsibilities and other criteria.
2 Now, what about the criteria listed here in the law of
3 Republika Srpska; are these the usual criteria, the ones that you have
4 also seen in the Army of the former Yugoslavia?
5 A. These are almost the same criteria as I used in any army. Here,
6 it is specifically stated that the formation is a special position group,
7 and it says on the basis of what the criteria to be established for each
8 such group. What I have seen from the document with the establishment of
9 the JNA, because I have had opportunity to see those, and those of the
10 Army of Republika Srpska, the Army of Yugoslavia, the BH Army, and the
11 establishment of the Macedonian Army, the criteria are so similar that
12 one might say they're actually identical.
13 Q. Can you please now refer to Article 177, which is on this same
14 page, a little further up on the page, and in English it's on page 66.
15 We see the criteria determining the salary. The first of this criteria
16 is the rank. Could you tell us the importance of rank in the Army of
17 Republika Srpska?
18 A. As in any army, the hierarchy and subordination are reflected
19 inter alia in the ranks, and these ranks made it easier to determine the
20 position of every individual within the army.
21 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now have page 1 of this
22 document, please, page 1 in B/C/S, which corresponds to page 2 in the
23 English version. I'm interested in Article 4.
24 Q. We see that there can be superior officers, subordinate officers,
25 as well as senior or junior officers. Could you please take a look at
1 paragraph 3 of Article 4. It's on the other page at the very top in the
2 B/C/S version. Here, there is a definition of a senior officer, a brief
3 definition. But I'm a layperson, so I would like you to explain exactly
4 what is a senior officer in a unit. Could you tell us exactly what is
5 the function of this person?
6 A. This is one of the universal rules or standards, whatever you
7 choose to call them. It's difficult to resolve the issue of subordinates
8 and superiors. This is something that exists in any organisation. We
9 all know who is boss and who isn't. Regardless of this, military systems
10 are very peculiar and they work under different conditions. They are
11 based on a firm hierarchy and subordination.
12 They must deal with issues such as the following: For example,
13 you have persons in the same place between whom there is no relationship
14 of subordination. In a situation like that, you have to know who is the
15 first in command and who is the second. So this is what senior and
16 junior means. The criterion for defining senior and junior is defined
17 here in a simple way. If you have a number of officers in the same place
18 separated by nothing in terms of hierarchy, the most senior officer among
19 those will be the highest-ranking officer. If they all have the same
20 ranks, the officer with the highest responsibility or duty will be
21 charged in that group. And this is how they make sure that there is
22 always some form of hierarchy, even if purely for the sake of protocol.
23 Q. I would now like to show you another document, 5D751. It's not
24 translated in the system, but we have the translation here at hand.
25 This is the service regulations for the armed forces. This is a
1 document that comes from the JNA. I would like to show you page 17 in
2 the B/C/S, item 37, on page 1 in the English.
3 MR. JOSSE: Could the translation be put on the ELMO, please?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it is already, I'm told.
5 MR. JOSSE: Ah, yes, I beg your pardon.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
8 Q. In paragraph 37, item 2, the following is written --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before you proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 I'm sorry for interrupting. Our device here for the ELMO and
12 e-court, et cetera, is out of commission, so I can't see what's on the
13 ELMO or in e-court; and I wondered if my colleague might have an extra
14 hard copy of the translation for me.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have an extra copy? If you don't, I can
16 give him mine and I can share -- I can follow on the ELMO, myself.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I do
18 appreciate it.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. In item 2, paragraph 37 of this regulation, it states, and I
22 [In English] "If their superior officer is absent and prompt
23 measures need to be taken to ensure the fulfillment of urgent tasks,
24 particularly in combat, emergency situations or in restoring disrupted
25 work organisation and prescribed order and discipline, persons serving in
1 the armed forces must carry out orders issued by the most senior officer
3 [Interpretation] Was this rule also applied in the
4 Army of Republika Srpska?
5 A. Yes, it was. This rule was applied in the Army of Republika
6 Srpska. This is a rule that is applied in any army, as a matter of fact.
7 Q. I would like to now show you document P417. This is the
8 service manual -- temporary service manual for the Army of
9 Republika Srpska, dated August 1992. And we need page 10 on the screen,
10 page 10 in both versions. I would like to have item 2 on the screen, at
11 the very bottom of the page in B/C/S.
12 The rule that we see drafted here, could you tell us whether it
13 reflects the previous rule that we saw in the previous document that was
14 a JNA document and it had to do with the senior officer?
15 A. Yes, essentially it's the same thing. There is no need for me to
16 add anything. But the previous one was a little more specific in detail.
17 However, they both reflect this senior/junior relationship.
18 Q. Practically, according to the information you had, could you tell
19 us whether, in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, if the
20 commander and the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff were absent, who would
21 have been the senior officer?
22 A. What you just said, when you talk about them being absent, you
23 need to be more specific. There is a rule that says a commander is
24 always in his unit, even when a command is not in the room. For example,
25 if the commander of the Army of Republika Srpska and the chief of the
1 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska happen not to be in an area,
2 yet all of the other officers of the Main Staff of the Army of
3 Republika Srpska are there, then one knows exactly who the most senior
4 officer is. Establishment-wise, it is the chief of the sector for
5 morale, legal and religious affairs.
6 Q. In -- could General Miletic have been the senior officer in the
7 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in a given circumstance?
8 A. There is a possibility and there is a model that he could have
9 been seen as the most senior officer in the Main Staff of the Army
10 of Republika Srpska, General Miletic or the head of Administration for
11 Teaching and Operations, but this would be, as it were, a headless model
12 or a pointless model.
13 Q. Let me now move to your report, item 5D759. I need page 15 in
14 the B/C/S version and page 18 in the English.
15 Could you tell us exactly what this organisational chart
17 A. This is a diagram of the organisational structure of the
18 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. It represents four levels.
19 Whenever you see a diagram like this, you can always find out what the
20 elements are of each of these organisational units, what the hierarchy
21 is, and how the links and relations between the various organisational
22 units operate.
23 Q. In paragraph 38 on page 16 of the B/C/S version, and page 20 of
24 the English version, you state that this organisational chart shows the
25 order and sometimes -- and in some places also the rank. So could you
1 tell us what is the meaning of the order and what is the meaning of the
2 rank in this organisational chart? And if we could have the
3 organisational chart back on the screen, page 18 for the English and 15
4 for the B/C/S.
5 A. Bearing in mind the fact that, as I was reading certain
6 materials, I realised that there was a huge problem concerning the
7 understanding of this relationship, this senior/junior,
8 subordinate/superior representation and standing in for, from the
9 beginning of this expert report I wanted to indicate something that I
10 have chosen to call "rank and order." Before moving on to this diagram,
11 we could talk about ranks, first rank, second rank, first row, second
12 row, in a sense, you might call them, and so on and so forth. As far as
13 "order" is concerned, we might apply that name to the columns, the
14 vertical categories within that rank or order. I wanted to show that in
15 this diagram in two ways; one being the size of the square that stands
16 for an organisational unit. If you look at the diagram, it's easy to
17 see. And the other way is to use colour to mark that. However, these
18 documents were not scanned in colour, although originally they were
19 produced in colour, so this is now moot. That's how I did it, and now
20 I'll try to explain the diagram.
21 At the very top of the system, you see the commander. The first
22 rank is represented by the staff, the sectors, and the independent
23 administrations. Within that rank, you see their order. It's clearly
24 reflected in the diagram. This rank and this order are deduced from two
25 documents, one being the establishment book, which is something that
1 we've been looking at, and it has been shown, and the other being the
2 organisation/mobilisation development book which is not in existence,
3 unfortunately, nor indeed has it been reconstructed, as it were. The
4 second rank is the blue boxes or squares. They are smaller than the
5 sectors, the second row, and you can see that we have the teaching and
6 operations administration. We see all of the branches there and all of
7 the organisational units. So this is the order, and all the other
8 administrations have departments, and the sector for security and
9 information has two administrations. This is displayed on two levels,
10 and the third one shows the administrations within -- the departments
11 within the administrations.
12 Q. Could you give us the -- explain the difference between the
13 Main Staff and the Staff?
14 A. Certainly. If you look at the diagram, you see that the
15 Main Staff is an organisational unit comprising the staff, the sectors,
16 and the dependent administrations with all its units. The Staff is an
17 organisational unit within the Main Staff. It has its own pre-defined
18 authorities or areas of authority. That is why it is often unacceptable
19 to speak of the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska. There is no such position. There is the Chief of
21 Staff of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could, I just wanted -- I think the
23 translation is mistaken or erroneous, and page 39 looks like line 1.
24 I think the distinction that the expert was drawing was one referring to
25 the Chief of Staff of the army, as distinct from the Chief of Staff of
1 the staff. I think that's not properly recorded in the record on
2 page 39, line 1. If I'm mistaken, just please let me know, but I think
3 that's what he said.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we have a confirmation of that from you,
5 General, please.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies. Could we have a confirmation of that
8 from you, General, please? You follow what Mr. Vanderpuye has just
9 pointed out? What we have on the transcript at line 1 of page 39 is --
10 or thereabouts:
11 "This is why it is often unacceptable to speak of the Chief of
12 Staff of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. There is no
13 such position. There is the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of the Army
14 of Republika Srpska," which read together are a contradiction in terms.
15 Madame, I suggest you handle it straight away.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Could you please slowly repeat what you said earlier? What is
18 the position that does not exist in the Army of Republika Srpska?
19 Slowly, please.
20 A. Before I say it, we should go back to the previous page,
21 "Establishment," and then I'll tell you what does not exist.
22 In the Army of Republika Srpska, there is no chief of the
23 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. And can you now tell us what was the function of
25 General Milovanovic?
1 A. What exists is Chief of Staff of the staff, of the Main Staff of
2 the Army of Republika Srpska, and we can look at the establishment
3 diagram so I can point it out to you.
4 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please display page 5D758.
5 Page 13 of this document.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Madame Fauveau.
7 Can I draw your attention to page 31, line 7. I wonder whether
8 that's a misinterpretation as well. Here it is recorded that there is no
9 chief of the staff; there is chief of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe this was a translation
11 error, but I did not pick it up.
12 JUDGE KWON: You can confirm with the witness again on this
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
17 [In English] "There is no chief of the staff. There is the chief
18 of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska."
19 [Interpretation] The sentence that I just read you, can you tell
20 us whether the sentence I just read you corresponds to what you exactly
22 A. I'm getting dizzy from all these definitions, and I can imagine
23 what's going on with you. In order to resolve this problem, can you
24 please put the establishment of the Main Staff on the screen, and
25 whatever errors have been made I think should be clarified forever.
1 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we have document 5D758 on the
2 screen, please. Page 13, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's sufficient.
4 I will try to tell you now about what this diagram shows and what
5 gives rise to this dilemma.
6 You can see duty here, Chief of Staff, who is also a deputy
7 commander. This Chief of Staff is in the staff, and this staff is in the
8 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. Awkward, but true, as a
9 matter of fact.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Maybe the witness could mark this
11 document so we see where exactly it is the Chief of Staff of the
12 Main Staff.
13 Q. Could you please mark this document and circle "Main Staff of the
14 Army of Republika Srpska"? It's at the very top of the page. Could you
15 circle it, please.
16 A. This is the order in which it should be read, Chief of Staff, 2,
17 and in the staff, in the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.
18 Q. For everything could be clear, could you tell us exactly what
19 number 1 corresponds to?
20 A. Number 1 means Chief of Staff who is also deputy commander. This
21 is Colonel General Milovanovic's duty. Number 2 means the Chief of Staff
22 is in Staff. Number 3 means that the Staff is in the Main Staff of the
23 Army of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please initial this document and also place
25 the date, January 12, 2009.
1 A. [Marks]
2 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think we still have a translation
3 mistake on page 41, line 25.
4 Q. So could you please repeat what corresponds to number 2?
5 A. Number 2 is "Duty, Chief of Staff." Also deputy commander -- no,
6 no, sorry, 2 is "Staff," staff, organisational unit, staff.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Could we save
8 this document, please.
9 I would like to return to your report, document 5D759 page 16 in
10 B/C/S and 21 in the English version.
11 Q. Could you please tell us what is the structure of the Staff, as
12 we see it on this organisational chart in figure 4?
13 A. From the establishment of the Main Staff of the Army of
14 Republika Srpska, and assuming that this establishment is in line with
15 the mobilisation plan, one can see that it is organised at two levels.
16 On the first level is the Administration for Operations and
17 Training and the arms of service, with the information technology
18 service; and at the second level we have the organisational units which
19 are below those of the first level, so that the Administration for
20 Operations and Training has a department for operations, a department for
21 training, and then operations centre, whereas the information technology
22 has an office and a typing pool.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show page 70 to the witness,
24 page 70 in the report in B/C/S, corresponding to page 88 of the English.
25 Q. Here, you wrote that General Miletic was the 6th by rank and the
1 24th by order in the Republika Srpska. I would like to show you the
2 organisational scheme that we have on the previous page in B/C/S, and
3 English, it's page 88. In B/C/S, it corresponds to page -- to the top of
4 the page.
5 According to this organisational chart which you drew, could you
6 tell us how you were able to determine the rank of General Miletic, as
7 well as the order he had?
8 A. The document concerning the rank and the order of commanding
9 officers in an army is something that almost every army in the world
10 should have. This document is, first of all, important so that position
11 groups can be harmonised, so that replacements can be made, and also for
12 purposes of protocol.
13 Reading the documents linked to this case, I have seen that very
14 often there was a lot of confusion about what commanding officer in the
15 Army of Republika Srpska held what rank. Bearing in mind they had an
16 order on the operation of the Army of Republika Srpska, that they also
17 had the establishment, that I had a large number of orders, I contacted
18 additional interviews with those officers who dealt with organisation
19 within the Army of Republika Srpska and established, on the basis of all
20 this, the precise rank and order in the Army of Republika Srpska. This
21 is the rank at army level, where at first the rank is commander, the
22 second are his assistants and Chief of Staff, or, rather, the chief of
23 staff and assistants. Then the third are the corps commanders; fourth
24 are the chief of staffs of the corps and the commander of the training
25 centre; five, the chiefs of the independent administrations, and five
1 [as interpreted], the chiefs of the administrations, and then I didn't go
2 into any further details. Based on all this, I reached the conclusion
3 presented here. I have checked this diagram with a large number of
4 officers engaged in organisational work, and they all agreed with every
5 detail of this diagram.
6 Q. I would now like to show you document P692. This is another
7 organisational chart, but it is not one you drafted, yourself. Could you
8 please look at this organisational chart of the Main Staff of the VRS,
9 and tell us whether this organisational chart is accurate.
10 A. I expected to see this diagram clearly and precisely in this
11 court, but it's very hard to understand, as are all the documents I've
12 been shown here so far. However, I have managed to decipher much that I
13 needed, and my first conclusion is as follows: The title of this diagram
14 does not correspond with its contents.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we help him by giving him a hard copy, if this
16 is available? But I think if we have a hard copy, it will make things
17 easier for him.
18 Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I may have one. I'd just like
20 counsel to take a look at it and make sure it's the same thing first.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sure. You need to show it to Madame Fauveau,
22 please, and any other Defence counsel who's interested in looking at it.
23 Is there any other Defence counsel who want to make sure what the witness
24 is given?
25 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It's not absolutely similar. I
1 believe that this is a more recent organisational chart than the one we
2 have in the file.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: It may very well be. This is a working draft
4 that we have, and I just happened to have it in court.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The thing is whether we can use it or not. If you
6 prefer not to use it, Madame, then we will not use it.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, we can use it, we can use it.
8 There are some slight differences, but I believe that the witness will
9 find his way in this document.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
11 MR. JOSSE: It can't be used, in our submission, because we would
12 then need to have a copy of it on the ELMO, unless there is a copy on the
13 ELMO for us all to see it.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: As it is, it is on the ELMO, but as it is -- sorry,
15 it's not on the ELMO, it's on the e-court.
16 MR. JOSSE: I'm talking about the different version, Your Honour.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a printout out of e-court?
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's not a printout out of e-court,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, but the Registrar, Registry has made it.
22 This is harder to read, and I don't think putting it on the ELMO is going
23 to help. What we can do is we can show this to the witness as an aid,
24 and put it on the ELMO in case we need to refer to it.
25 JUDGE KWON: The witness hasn't studied that version.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, but the variations seem to be minimal.
2 MR. JOSSE: Sorry to be difficult. If the variations are not
3 material, then of course it doesn't matter, but --
4 THE COURT: Well, I'm not in a position to say whether they are
5 material or not, but I understood Madame Fauveau to indicate that they
6 are not material.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I'm
8 concerned, they are not, but maybe for my colleague, it might be better
9 to use what we have in e-court and then zoom in on some parts as we need
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay, we can do that. I mean, as I
12 said, the whole idea was to provide an aid to the witness. In our case,
13 we can blow up what we have in the e-court, but I don't think that the
14 witness can stay doing that. I mean --
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe that we'll make it with
16 the witness, we'll find a way. Don't worry.
17 Could we please zoom the top part of the document in order to see
18 the two first blocks. It might be a complicated exercise, but I'm sure
19 that we will manage.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we go through it bit by bit, as we are doing
21 now, and zoom in on the different parts that you need to refer the
22 witness to. I think that can be done without any difficulty at all.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
24 Q. In these two blocks that you have on the screen, could you tell
25 us whether there are parts that you believe are erroneous?
1 A. One thing I would like to ask you is to zoom in -- or, rather,
2 not to zoom in, but to show me the entire document so I can explain more
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Why, perhaps, had you left it there,
5 Madam Registrar --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, like this, like this. This is
7 what I find appropriate.
8 By Your Honour's leave, could my suggestions be inscribed in this
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't understand that. What do you mean by
11 inscribing your suggestions in this diagram?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to show what is not correct.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, okay.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It will be easier so the witness
15 can mark where he finds errors, or mistakes, or problems.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Usher, please, you need to assist the witness
17 to show him how he can mark the document that we have on e-court.
18 Can we zoom in a little bit more. No, no, that's not -- okay,
19 leave it at that.
20 Now, General -- leave it as it is. You can -- all right. You
21 can put any markings that you wish. Fine like that, yeah, leave it.
22 JUDGE KWON: Can you see the title?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but this one will read --
24 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] My first conclusion was
1 that the diagram does not correspond to its title. The title is "The
2 Structure of the Main Staff of the VRS in July 1995," whereas the
3 contents include units of the Army of Republika Srpska, not its
4 Main Staff. So this is not actually part of this diagram. It shouldn't
5 be here.
6 Secondly --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because for the record --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because for the record we need to
10 describe what you have done.
11 When the witness made this statement, he crossed out, at the
12 bottom of the document, all the boxes in the last two rows, starting from
13 1st Krajina Corps to 10th Sabotage Detachment; in total, eight boxes.
14 Yes, we can now proceed.
15 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Just to be absolutely sure, what has been struck out are
17 6th Corps, the 65th Protection Regiment and the 10th Sabotage Detachment.
18 Is this what you have struck out and what you wanted to strike out?
19 A. No. All the corps represented here, all the units, they were not
20 within the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. They were
21 subordinate to it, but they were not part of it. So the 1st Corps, the
22 2nd [indiscernible] Bosniak Corps, the Drina Corps, the Herzegovina
23 Corps, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the 65th, and the 10th Sabotage
24 Detachment have been crossed out.
25 The next salient point here is that the structure depicted does
1 not correspond to the organisation it has been derived from. The place
2 of the Chief of Staff should be here [Marks], not up there.
3 Q. For things to be clear, could you please draw a cross on the
4 place where the chief of the Main Staff is at the moment on this diagram?
5 A. Where it is now or where does it belong?
6 Q. On this diagram.
7 A. It's here [Marks]. I've marked it with a figure 1, which I've
8 circled. That's where he is. And where he should be is where I've drawn
9 the square.
10 JUDGE KWON: But, General, can he not be there as a deputy
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is the Chief of Staff and also
13 the deputy commander, but that is a single duty. It cannot be divided
14 into two. All the rights and obligations he has, as deputy commander of
15 the Main Staff, stem from his duty as Chief of Staff, who is also the
16 deputy commander. So pulling him out of his rank like this does not hold
17 water. That's the functional sort of organisational characterized by the
18 NATO forces. That's what's represented here, but that's not the actual
19 situation in the Army of Republika Srpska, which is why there are double
20 lines of command here, but these did not actually exist in the VRS.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well, thank you.
22 Proceed, Madame Fauveau.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Now, the regarding the function of the Chief of Staff of the
25 Main Staff, in this box that's not at the right place we see:
1 "Assistant commander and chief of the Main Staff."
2 A. That does not exist.
3 Q. Just a second, please. You already explained that the function
4 of the chief of the Main Staff does not exist, the Chief of Staff of the
5 Main Staff does not exist; but was General Milovanovic assistant to the
7 A. No, that is incorrect. He was the Chief of Staff, also the
8 deputy commander in the staff of the Main Staff, and his place is where I
9 have depicted it here.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now -- I would like to
11 know first whether we can zoom in on the organisational chart, as it is.
12 No? That's too bad.
13 Q. Maybe possibly -- so now at this stage could you please initial
14 the document and place the date, because we will continue with another
15 version of the document. Otherwise, it's going to be too complicated.
16 A. If I may make a suggestion, I would introduce two or three other
17 changes which would not be complicated.
18 Q. Go ahead.
19 A. In addition to this [Marks], these double lines of command, which
20 I am crossing out now [Marks], do not exist. They lead from the Chief of
21 Staff to the other organisational units. And, further, the order of the
22 organisational units is all mixed up. As I've been able to see in the
23 diagram shown a little while ago, there it's in order, so this
24 organisational unit should be in position 6 [Marks]. That's the
25 Administration for the Air Force and Anti-Aircraft Defence. This
1 organisational unit for intelligence and security affairs [Marks] should
2 be in position 4. Only the staff remains in the first place. The
3 organisational unit, I think it says for logistics here, its actual
4 position should be 3 [Marks].
5 Q. Just a second. You are at the Department for Moral, Religious
6 and Legal Affairs. That's the box you're at, where you placed the 3; is
7 that it?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I heard the translation as referring to logistics,
9 but I think you're right, it needs to be cleared up or clarified.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't see very well. I do
11 apologise. So instead of 3, it should be 2 here, the number 2 [Marks].
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But he, in the transcript, he had the
13 reference to 3 before. I would have preferred to have the 3 crossed out,
14 rather than have it deleted.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next organisational unit, as
18 far as I can see, is for mobilisation and personnel affairs. That should
19 be number 5 [Marks]. That's its correct order.
20 The next -- finally we have logistics here, and it's real place
21 is in position 3 [Marks]. That's the one I crossed out before. And then
22 there's the Administration for Planning and Deployment, and that's 7
23 [Marks]. So the fact that it's all mixed up here makes it hard to
24 establish the order of the officers, and it also -- it also is not in
25 line with the establishment according to which this diagram was supposed
1 to be drawn up.
2 The next point is that the staff here is called the staff of arms
3 of service.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because at least according to the
5 interpretation, you referred to the last box as Administration for
6 Planning and Deployment. In reality, what at least I have on the screen,
7 being the last one, is Department for Development and Finance.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. You're right,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So number 7 would represent what, then, the
11 Department for Development and Finance or --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Administration for
13 Planning and Finance, yes.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, yes, but before the break, because I
15 need to it cleared.
16 If you were to redraw, yourself, this chart therefore, you have
17 moved the box where there is "Milovanovic" right below the "Mladic" box.
18 He would still be number 1, no, Milovanovic?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In that row, yes, he would be
20 number 1.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And then 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
22 Okay, I think we can have the break now.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Just before we take the break,
24 could the witness just sign the document, please, and the date.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are we finished with this?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you kindly sign your name at the top right-hand
2 corner under those seven numbers or eight numbers, yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that your signature?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
7 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, in my understanding, the
8 witness would like to continue, but we can do that after the break, I
9 suppose. But on the same chart, I think that he has a number of changes
10 that he would like to bring.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, okay. I leave it up to you, whether to
12 save it now or save it later. It's up to you.
13 Thank you, 25 minutes.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
16 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Just before we proceed, could you please put number 1 above the
18 area devoted to the staff, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I just wonder if my
22 colleague would have the witness clarify whether the number 1 relates
23 specifically to General Milovanovic or to the sectors as a general
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Fauveau.
2 Q. All these numbers which you have put above the various boxes and
3 sectors, are these numbers referring to the sectors, or to the heads or
4 chiefs of those sectors, or to both?
5 A. The numbers applies to the sectors, and the segments apply to
6 their heads.
7 Q. Could you please repeat your answer, as I'm not sure that it has
8 been well recorded.
9 A. The numbers that I placed on this diagram are in reference to the
10 sectors. When they are in reference to the sectors, then they are also
11 in reference to the heads of those sectors.
12 Q. And could you please now write number 1 above the sector for the
13 staff, please.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Now, you said there are also other mistakes in this chart. Could
16 you please tell us what you had in mind?
17 A. At the beginning, I said there was an error in substance, and we
18 dealt with that by doing the drawings on the diagrams. As far as
19 structural errors are concerned, we dealt with that by establishing the
20 order in the diagram. As far as errors with links and relations are
21 concerned, I would just like to say now that these are fictitious links,
22 and whenever there's an X, that's what it means. And there are two types
23 of error that remain. In terms of the nomenclature, what the
24 organisational units are called, and also about not naming the specific
25 duties. I would first like to say something about errors concerning the
1 nomenclature, the names of the organisational units.
2 Each military organisation has the names of units specifically
3 defined, and each unit has a certain rank. In the case at hand, and I'm
4 talking about the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, there are
5 sectors, sectors on an equal level as the staff. You have
6 administrations, departments and sections.
7 The person who produced this diagram put the staff on an equal
8 footing with the branch's staff, but that doesn't exist, and that's the
9 name right here [indicates].
10 Secondly, this person did not provide a criterion in terms of how
11 he translated the organisational units of the Main Staff of the Army of
12 Republika Srpska into English. In my study, I clearly established that
13 criterion. The sectors in the Serbian are sectors in the English.
14 Administrations in the Serbian are departments in the English. And
15 departments, I think we use the word "section" for that. I see that it's
16 not here.
17 In keeping with that, here you have a large number of sectors
18 that are termed administrations or administrations put on an equal
19 footing with sectors. In keeping with this criterion, one needs to
20 establish certain distinctions. The staff remains.
21 Number 2, the Department for Morale, Religion and all that is not
22 a department; rather, it should read "sector."
23 Number 3, again another sector, not a department.
24 Number 4, again "sector," not "department."
25 Number 5, "sector," not "department."
1 Number 6 and number 7 are departments.
2 This name of an organisational unit also applies to the
3 Administration for Training and Operations, and also for the information
4 administration and the security administration. In keeping with this
5 criterion, it is necessary to redraw this diagram, because this is very
6 important in terms of determining the ranks in order to follow.
7 The last part is about appointments or not appointing. I looked
8 at two duties specifically, General Milovanovic first of all. It reads
9 "chef glavno staba," chief of the Main Staff. We've got that clarified
10 and we put an end to that, but then below that it reads "assistant
11 commander, deputy commander." He wasn't a deputy commander. He was the
12 Chief of Staff and also the deputy commander in the operations and
13 teaching administration, it reads, next to General Miletic's [Realtime
14 transcript read in error, "Milutinovic"] name "chief" or "deputy chief."
15 He never was the deputy chief, as a matter of fact. I didn't really
16 check all the other duties well because the diagram and the entire expert
17 report was impossible to scan in that respect.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 My colleague has pointed out to me that at line 13, there's a
21 reference to General Milutinovic in the record. I believe it should say
22 "General Miletic."
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. You agree to that?
24 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, Your Honour, I
25 agree, and I'd like to thank my colleague for that.
1 Now, I think that we can now save this exhibit and that we shall
2 no longer need it.
3 JUDGE KWON: General Kosovac, you said that the administration or
4 "ubrava" in B/C/S should be translated into "department," didn't you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a matter of convention. The
6 standard that we used was that "ubrava" should be translated as
7 "department" and "sektor" remains "sector."
8 JUDGE KWON: Does it equally apply to the "ubrava za ONP," which
9 is headed by Mr. Miletic? This should be translated to "Department for
10 Operation and Training"?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Department for
12 Operations and Teaching, not for Operations.
13 JUDGE KWON: Does that unit have the same level as other
14 departments; for example, Department for Mobilisation of Persons and
15 those things?
16 THE WITNESS: "Mobilisation" is "sector," this is the same level
17 as the security department and intelligence department.
18 JUDGE KWON: I had in mind mobilisation, planning and finance or
19 air force department.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The two departments have a
21 higher level than the operations and teaching one.
22 JUDGE KWON: Even if they are using the same terminology, that
23 is, "ubrava"?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. These are
25 departments that are at a higher level of organisation.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Madame Fauveau-Ivanovic.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry to interrupt again. I just want my
5 colleague to clarify or have clarified because there is references to
6 these departments in the expert report that are referred to as
7 "administrations" in the report, and I wonder if we could clarify that.
8 In particular, I could refer to you paragraph 39 in the English.
9 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, you know, as far as I'm
10 concerned, I'd rather translate "ubrava" by "administration" in English,
11 but, you know, this is a linguistic issue. But maybe the witness can use
12 the terms in B/C/S, which will make it easier, and maybe explain the
13 difference between the two administrations at a higher level and the
14 administrations -- and the three other levels of administrations at a
15 lower level, for us to better understand what this is all about.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The department as an organisational
17 unit, the criterion to establish one, is the sort of business that it
18 transacts and the number of people who are involved, who are members of
19 this unit. It is based on that that you arrive at a conclusion as to
20 whether something constitutes a department or not. However, not all
21 departments are the same. These two departments, the air force and
22 anti-aircraft defence one, and the planning, development and finance one,
23 are placed directly under the commander. They are at a higher
24 organisational level. The remaining three, operations and teaching
25 specifically, the Chief of Staff is in charge, and the security
1 department and the intelligence department under the competence of the
2 assistant commander. It is in such a way that they are placed as a lower
3 level. The difference is clear, and it stems from the difference in rank
4 and order between these departments.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I'm concerned, I no
6 longer need this chart, and I would like to go back to your report. So
7 again Exhibit 5D759; on page 17 in the B/C/S version, and in English this
8 will be on page 22. And I'm referring to paragraph 43.
9 Q. In this paragraph, you wrote that the head of administration in
10 charge of operations and training has a right of command over the
11 sections for operations, over the section in charge of training, and over
12 the operations centre. Generally speaking, what is the function of the
13 operations centre?
14 A. The operations centre has a twofold meaning. One meaning denotes
15 an organisational unit, which means there are certain persons working
16 there. The other meaning is about a place where these jobs are
17 performed. Its principle task -- what can be considered its principle
18 task is being the principle mediator between the command links within the
19 army, and this is in relation to the basic command post.
20 Q. Was the operation centres formed as part of the Main Staff of the
21 Army of Republika Srpska?
22 A. There was supposed to be one, but it wasn't manned, and
23 eventually it wasn't established. The operations centre functioned in
24 such a way that the duty operations officer and the operations centre
25 officer were one and the same, and then various corners were cut. You
1 know that the position of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska
2 was to have maximum manning levels at the lower levels, such as brigades
3 and regiments, and the higher levels should try to operate with as few
4 men as possible, because there was an ongoing shortage of well-trained
5 men to fill these posts.
6 Q. And the fact that there was no operations centre, did that have
7 an impact on the way the department in charge of operations and training
9 A. Well, what is certain is that all the persons working in that
10 department had a lot of other things to do because of this, and all of
11 these were jobs that interfered with their normal work. However, that
12 was the decision that was taken. And as far as I can see, they did quite
13 well coping with the pressure.
14 Q. Now, you mentioned the officer for operations who was on duty.
15 What were the tasks of this officer on duty?
16 A. The operative duty officer, because I think that's what we're
17 talking about, within the system is considered the most senior duty
18 officer in an organisational unit. His principal task was, in the
19 commander's absence, to make sure the system was operating in keeping
20 with the orders, plans, and schedules.
21 Q. And to whom did this duty operations officer report? Who was he
22 subordinated to?
23 A. The operative duty officer is subordinated to the commander
24 regardless of the fact that sometimes some studies indicate that it's not
25 the commander that dismisses them or replaces them, but rather someone
1 else. Despite this fact, they are directly subordinated to the
3 Q. Now I would like to move to another subject and show you page 28
4 of your report, page 28 in the B/C/S version, which is page 37 -- sorry,
5 34, 34 in English. Now, what I'm interested in is paragraph 75 in which
6 you wrote, amongst other things, that there was no universal type of
7 military organisation. Can you please explain what you meant by this?
8 A. I tried to be as specific as I could. Based on my knowledge of
9 the Army of Republika Srpska, or the VJ, or the Army of Serbia, which I
10 had been a member up until recently, if I tried to explain other military
11 forces based on that, the errors would be disastrous. There is no
12 universal type of organisation. Whenever you deal with an army, you need
13 to analyse it and explain it in its own right, the way it operates, even
14 if you come across two similar ways two armies are organised. If you
15 don't study closely the organisational model of an army but, rather, if
16 you base your analysis on a different if similar model, there is always
17 the risk that you might be committing frightful errors.
18 Q. Right. May I now come back to page 12 in B/C/S, and I'm still
19 talking about your report, which is page 13 in English.
20 In paragraph 30, you mentioned one particular type of
21 organisation which you called the line staff type of organisation. Can
22 you please explain what this type of organisation comprises? And the
23 chart for the English version is on the following page, which is on
24 page 14.
25 A. It wasn't I who gave these names. It was file in early 19th
1 century, and these are the types of organisation I'm familiar with. The
2 army used the line staff type of organisation. Sometimes one uses the
3 staff-type term, and this has its own features, the features being that
4 among other things, any rights and responsibilities of commander in the
5 hands of a single man, the commander. This is also typical of other
7 However, communication only occurs through the commander, meaning
8 if the Chief of Staff of this lower command in the box wants to share
9 something with the Chief of Staff of a superior command, he passes
10 information along through his own commander and then the commander sends
11 it along to his own superior commander, and then the superior commander
12 informs the Chief of Staff. This is the most important difference in
13 relation to all the other types. The hierarchy is solid, it's all linked
14 up, and everything happens through the commander.
15 Q. And what army had this type of organisation?
16 A. The JNA, applied in a very consistent way, and also in all the
17 armies that emerged, as it were, on the ashes of the JNA. It wasn't
18 before the recent years that we switched over to the functional type of
19 organisation, and in the Eastern Bloc countries they also had these, the
20 former Eastern Bloc, but they did have some peculiarities. I don't think
21 we should be going into that type of detail now. They distinguished
22 between the line staff type and the type that they were actually using.
23 Q. I would now like to show you page 13 in the B/C/S version,
24 corresponding to page 16 in the English. In paragraph 33, you talk about
25 another kind of organisation called "functional" or "line functional."
1 Could you give us some explanation on this kind of organisation? The
2 organisational chart in the B/C/S version is on the next page, page 14.
3 A. This is a more advanced aspect of organisation, characterized by
4 a higher level of professionalism of the people working in this system.
5 Regardless of the fact that all the rights, obligations, and executive
6 duties are in the hands of the commander, he can transfer part of his
7 rights and obligations to his assistants; and these assistants have,
8 according to their functional rights, the competence to directly control
9 all their services in depth. This manner of organisation is considered
10 to be more flexible, more efficient, and conducive to speedier
12 Q. Could you tell us which armies were organised along this line,
13 along this structure?
14 A. I think almost all armies today, nowadays. At that time, it was
15 mainly the NATO forces that were organised in this way. We adopted this
16 way of organisation in the Serbian Army while I was still in charge of
18 Q. Just to make things perfectly clear, please tell us what
19 organisation existed in the Army of Republika Srpska in 1995.
20 A. To be very precise, I could say that this line staff type of
21 organisation was used with some admixtures of the functional type of
23 Q. You made a parallel between these two organisations and the two
24 types of armies, one being on the Eastern Bloc side and the other on the
25 Western side, so could you tell us whether there was an officer in charge
1 of operations in NATO armies?
2 A. That's the biggest problem. An operative officer of the type has
3 existed in the JNA and the armies that sprang from the JNA does not exist
4 in the NATO system. The entire system of organisation is completely
5 different, so any comparison and any drawing of conclusions based on the
6 other type of organisation leads to error. People who are familiar with
7 the army and organisation of NATO countries equate operations officers
8 with operatives, but this is wrong, both as regards their rights and
9 duties and qualifications and everything else.
10 Q. Did the Army of Republika Srpska have a function that could be
11 called adviser to the commander?
12 A. From the code book of duties in the Army of Republika Srpska,
13 which is easy to reconstruct, one can see that adviser -- adviser to the
14 commander or adviser to the chief are positions which do not exist.
15 Studying the orders on competencies, one can see that, in functional
16 terms, in the Army of Republika Srpska and in all the armies coming from
17 the former JNA, there is no advisory function and no counselling of
18 subordinates in relation to their superiors.
19 Q. Could you explain this last part of your answer, please? You're
20 saying that there is no advisory function and no counselling of
21 subordinates in relation to their superiors?
22 A. The duty of adviser did not exist, full stop. In the
23 competencies, the activity of giving advice did not exist. This is
24 something that regularly exists in all the armed forces of the NATO
25 countries nowadays.
1 Q. When General Mladic was absent, could you tell us who, in the
2 Army of Republika Srpska, would fill in for him and stand in for him?
3 Now, of course, before you answer, we have to define exactly what an
4 absence could mean because earlier you already told us about the problems
5 associated with the word "absence." So could you expound on this,
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not receiving interpretation.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. The microphone was
10 not switched on.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could repeat the list that you were giving
12 of various places, please, General.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.
14 Let's state precisely what "absence" means, "Not to be at the
15 command post." If somebody is not present in the Main Staff of the Army
16 of Republika Srpska, if somebody is not in Han Pijesak, he is not absent
17 from his duty. As long as appropriate communication with him can be
18 established, and as long as he's fit to command, he is on duty. From
19 that point of view, studying all the documents and talking to the people
20 in charge of personnel affairs, the commander of the Army of
21 Republika Srpska was always in command of the Army of Republika Srpska,
22 which means he was never absence from being able to command.
23 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Let's assume that General Mladic would not be fit for command or
25 able to command. Who could have stood in for him?
1 A. Well, it might be easier to refer you to Rule 37 of the Rules of
2 Service, but let me explain.
3 If an emergency arises, a dynamic or sudden situation, a
4 situation which could not be foreseen, then he would be replaced by the
5 most senior officer in the Army of Republika Srpska underneath him, and
6 that was the Chief of Staff, General Milovanovic. If his inability to
7 command occurred in normal conditions, the supreme commander would
8 immediately issue a decision on someone acting for the -- or standing in
9 for the commander until a final decision was reached.
10 Q. We saw that General Milovanovic's function was to be chief of
11 the -- head of the Main Staff, as well as being deputy commander. You
12 explained -- you told us when General Milovanovic actually stood in for
13 General Mladic, but we know that General Milovanovic signed a great
14 number of documents as deputy commander, so could you explain to us why
15 the deputy commander, General Milovanovic, actually signed these
16 documents in these cases?
17 A. Studying the voluminous documentation which you put at my
18 disposal, I saw in many places that the chiefs of staff signed documents
19 as deputies of the commander. This was also done by General Milovanovic.
20 In some documents, I saw there was Colonel Krstic at the time,
21 and I saw it on some other documents as well. That is actually an
22 incorrect way of signing because none of them was the deputy of the
23 commander. The duties of the Chief of Staff and deputy commander are an
24 integral whole, so if he was authorised to sign, the correct way would
25 have been to sign it "Chief of Staff and Deputy Commander
1 Colonel Milovanovic." Why they did this, I don't know, and the fact
2 their superiors did not object, they did not feel it was a big problem.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is this the right
4 time to adjourn?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Fauveau.
6 General, we are going to stop here for today. We'll continue
7 tomorrow. We are going quite slowly, if I may say so. Anyway, between
8 now and tomorrow, please, you're not allowed to discuss with anyone the
9 subject matter of your testimony, and this will continue to be the case
10 until you finish with your evidence sometime next week.
11 Thank you, and adjourned to tomorrow morning at 9.00.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of January, 2009,
14 at 9.00 a.m.