Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29948

 1                           Monday, 12 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.22 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning, everybody, and especially to you,

 6     Madam Registrar.  If you could kindly call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you so much.

11             All the accused are present.  The Prosecution today is

12     Mr. Thayer, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Is there anyone else behind the column or

13     not?  No.  What happened to Mr. McCloskey?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I believe before we broke, he

15     indicated he wouldn't be here for the first day.  We do expect him back,

16     however, tomorrow, and perhaps around the second session he should be in

17     court.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, okay.  I just ask you for the record.

19     That's all.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  And then from the Defence teams, I notice the

22     absence of Mr. Nikolic.  That's it, I think.  Mr. Lazarevic is here, yes.

23     Mr. Bourgon is here.  That's it.

24             So I hope you have recovered your energies and that you also had

25     some time to enjoy together with your respective families.  We are

Page 29949

 1     reconvened now to what seems to be the tail end of the evidentiary stage

 2     of the trial.

 3             In the course of the week, you will be approached by our senior

 4     legal officer to get some information -- further information, more than

 5     you have given already, so that we can plan the schedule accordingly for

 6     the next two months.

 7             That applies also to the Prosecution, especially if there is a

 8     notation to ask for rebuttal and so on and so forth.  So we need to plan,

 9     and we prefer to plan -- to have the information beforehand and plan

10     ahead, rather than wait and see what happens later.

11             Okay.  Today we continue with the last witness of the

12     Miletic Defence team.  Are there any preliminaries?  None?  None.  Your

13     estimate for the time -- for the time being, Ms. Fauveau?

14             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe that 16 hours should be

15     necessary, but I can tell you later during the day.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  So you still maintain the 16 hours that you had

17     asked for.

18             I take it you asked for 12 hours, roughly.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President, but that will

20     vary depending upon --

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Obviously.  I'm just asking so we plan ahead.

22             All right, let's bring the -- Mr. Thayer, I'm sorry.

23             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.

25             MR. THAYER:  And happy new year to you and Your Honours.  And

Page 29950

 1     happy new year to everybody.

 2             Mr. President, we did have a very brief preliminary that I

 3     alerted our friends to.  With all the mirth and merry-making over the

 4     holidays with the OTP, we missed the deadline for the Pandurevic motion

 5     to amend its 65 ter list of witnesses and exhibits.

 6             THE COURT:  We are aware of that, yes.

 7             MR. THAYER:  We are prepared to file a written response that we

 8     do not object to the application.  However, we would need to seek leave

 9     to reply out of time from the Trial Chamber in order to do that.  We've

10     done it both ways.  We've provided an oral response to some of these

11     motions in the past, and other times we've filed a written response.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's cut it short.  I don't think that

13     Mr. Pandurevic -- Mr. Haynes will object to that.

14             MR. HAYNES:  Absolutely not.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  What about you, Mr. Ostojic?

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Your Honour, thank you.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, so permissioned granted, you can

18     register your non-objection orally, and we can proceed.

19             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, the motion is granted, basically.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  And you are most welcome to this Tribunal.  You

25     have been summoned as an expert witness by the Defence team for

Page 29951

 1     General Miletic.

 2             Your testimony is going to take quite some time.  I think that

 3     you should at least earmark the entire week that we've just started, and

 4     I wouldn't be surprised if we go into the next one as well.  Much depends

 5     on how much you succeed in keeping your answers brief and to the point.

 6     If you try to answer the question -- the whole question and nothing but

 7     the question, the chances are that you will go home earlier than

 8     expected.  If you beat around the bush and you go around in circles and

 9     give lengthy answers when they could be shorter, you will be here for

10     longer than I have told you.

11             Before you start giving evidence, our Rules require you to make a

12     solemn declaration to the effect that you will be testifying the truth.

13     The text has just been handed to you now.  Please read it out aloud, and

14     that will be your solemn undertaking with us.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS: SLOBODAN KOSOVAC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Kosovac, do you have a rank?  Would you like us

20     to address you with any particular rank?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind any way you wish.  You

22     can call me "Mr. Kosovac" or any other way you want.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Please make yourself comfortable.

24     Madame Fauveau will be asking you questions, and we'll follow up from

25     there.

Page 29952

 1             Madame Fauveau.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Examination by Ms. Fauveau:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please give us your name and surname?

 5        A.   Slobodan Kosovac.

 6        Q.   Could you briefly tell us about your education background and

 7     what school you completed?

 8        A.   I completed grammar school, which was the highest form of

 9     civilian education, and then the military academy and became an officer

10     of the JNA, and then the Command Staff Academy, which would be equal to

11     the Masters of Arts in civilian life.  Then I was promoted to colonel,

12     and then I finished the School of National Defence, which is the highest

13     school in the army, equaling a doctorate; and this was a precondition for

14     me to become a general.

15        Q.   Could you tell us about your career and tell us the positions

16     that you held?

17        A.   I'll try and be brief.

18             In my career, I served in various units of the army, in the

19     General Staff, in the Ministry, and later on -- or, rather, now I'm a

20     civilian in the army units.  I served as a commander.  I served in the

21     rocket units of the anti-aircraft defence, and also I was the chief --

22     the assistant chief of the commander for education, and the

23     General staff, I worked in the development, organisation, mobilisation

24     and military duties; and I performed duties from the chief of department,

25     chief of section, and assistant chief of General Staff in the Ministry.

Page 29953

 1     I was the assistant in the Ministry for human resources and the executive

 2     director of the Ministry.

 3             When I was retired, I found a job, a civilian job, and I'm most

 4     engaged in strategy, man [as interpreted] and management.

 5        Q.   Have you published any books, documents, or papers?

 6        A.   In my career, I've published a number of professional papers,

 7     books, and degree papers.  My professional papers dealt with military

 8     obligation, organisation, management, and the civilian control over the

 9     military.  My papers have been published by non-governmental

10     organisations, such as the Atlantic Council of Serbia, and they have also

11     been published by the General Staff, the Ministry.  And the last papers

12     I've published dealt with the organisation of companies in Serbia.

13        Q.   You've been hired by the Defence of General Miletic to write a

14     report.  Could you briefly tell us what was the purpose of this report?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  What is the purpose of this report?

16     Interpreter's correction.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was first briefed and then asked

18     to write about the role of General Miletic while he served in the Army of

19     Republika Srpska, with a special reference to the duties that he

20     performed during a given period of time.  Based on that, I analysed

21     General Miletic's post, his involvement, his links with the environment,

22     i.e., with the environment of his post, and I also analysed whether

23     General Miletic had other duties that went beyond his post.  And as a

24     result of that, I've provided my expert report.

25             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

Page 29954

 1        Q.   Could you tell us the sources you used to draft this report?

 2        A.   I've used a number of sources.  My main source was the source

 3     that I received from you, from the Defence.  I also used materials that

 4     determined the position and the role of the organ that General Miletic

 5     worked for.  I also used documents of the Yugoslav People's Army, as well

 6     as the documents of the Army of Yugoslavia.  I also used the search

 7     engines on the internet, and I compared the army with other modern

 8     militaries, such as NATO.  I also used interviews with my colleagues, be

 9     it from the Army of Yugoslavia, or the Army of Republika Srpska, or even

10     the militaries of the former Yugoslav People's Army.  I interviewed

11     high-ranking officers from all of these militaries.

12        Q.   I would now like to show you page 5 of your report.  It is

13     document 5D759.  I'm interested in paragraph 3 on page 5 of both

14     versions.  In this paragraph, you wrote:

15             "Despite the fact that everything occurred over 3 [as

16     interpreted] years, they could be seen as dynamic."

17             What do you mean exactly?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Thirteen years.  Interpreter's correction.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now that I am looking at this

20     paragraph, I can say that the event took place almost 14 years ago,

21     because I wrote the report almost a year ago.  What I meant was to draw a

22     comparison between life and expert report.  In life, new documents appear

23     every day.  There's no indication to prove that there will be no new

24     documents, that the public and media are discovering new events.

25             I would like to remind everybody of a series of events that were

Page 29955

 1     discovered last year from the point of view of the 5th Corps of the Army

 2     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I would also like to remind everybody that many

 3     things are being divulged as we speak.  For example, people have been --

 4     or remains have been found 15 years after the events.  So every expert

 5     report that strives to be objective must be open and must be capable of

 6     being built up based on new facts, and that may be built into such

 7     report.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Madame Fauveau-Ivanovic, before we go further, can I

 9     know when the General retired?

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Yes.  You heard the question from Judge Kwon.  Could you please

12     tell us when you retired?

13        A.   2005.  15 September 2005.

14             JUDGE KWON:  What position did you hold at the time of war in

15     1995?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1995, I was just about to finish

17     the School of National Defence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Maybe to make things clearer, could you tell us which army you

21     belonged to from 1992 to 1995?

22        A.   From 1992 to the end of my career, I was in the

23     Army of Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   And to finish this issue, finish with this issue, could you tell

25     us when you were promoted to general?

Page 29956

 1        A.   I became general on the 16th of June, 2000, and

 2     lieutenant general on the 16th of June, 2004.

 3        Q.   I would now like to come back to your report, still page 5.  On

 4     paragraph 2, you said that it is impossible to analyse the events of 1995

 5     without taking into account the events and behaviours of what had

 6     happened earlier in that area from 1992 to 1995.

 7             I believe there's a mistake in the text, anyway.  It's

 8     January 1st, 1992, to August 1995.

 9             Could you tell us why the events that occurred in this area are

10     absolutely essential to understand what exactly happened in 1995?

11        A.   First of all, the events that took place in this area, i.e., the

12     most important thing is the clash between the two militaries, in order to

13     analyse a clash between the two militaries, you can't analyse that moment

14     in isolation.  How far back will you go is mostly determined by the way

15     these militaries are organised.  Because of the way these militaries were

16     organised, you have to go back to the year 1992.  That's one aspect.

17             The second aspect, which is very important for my analysis, is

18     the following:  No single event happens in isolation, on its own.  You

19     have to determine the causality or you have to analyse the causes and the

20     consequences in order to arrive at the beginning of the event that would

21     happen later.  And these two elements made me go back in time and

22     research a longer period than the one that was given to me as the task to

23     analyse.

24        Q.   For the transcript, there is no -- there's no mistake in the

25     report.  It is an error in my notes.  It is from January 1995 to

Page 29957

 1     August 1995.

 2             I would now like to start with the beginning, if I can say so,

 3     and show you Exhibit P25.  This is the minutes of the Assembly meeting of

 4     the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina in May 12, 1992.  I would like

 5     to see page 12 in the B/C/S version and page 13 in the English version.

 6     I'm interested in the paragraph that's lower on the page, the last

 7     paragraph on what we have on the screen.

 8             In this paragraph, we see that the Presidency, the Government,

 9     the Council for National Security, have formulated strategic priorities,

10     i.e., strategic goals for the Serbian people.  According to this

11     document, were you able to determine whether the army was actually

12     involved in the determination and the formulation of these strategic

13     goals?

14        A.   This was created before the 12th of May, as far as I could see.

15     Before the 12th of May, there was no Army of Republika Srpska; hence,

16     theoretically, it was not possible for the military to be involved in the

17     creation of the strategic goals.

18        Q.   According to the conclusions found on page 1 of this document,

19     from page 1 to 5 of this document, could you tell us whether you were

20     able to determine whether the strategic goals which had been presented

21     during this Assembly were actually adopted?

22        A.   The conclusions of this meeting was -- were of some interest to

23     me because of the analyses of the causes and consequences of the

24     organisation of the state and the organisation of the military.  I

25     believe that I have studied them in detail, and based on that, I can

Page 29958

 1     state that according to the minutes, the strategic goals were not adopted

 2     at the time.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we have page 2 of the B/C/S

 4     version, which corresponds to page 1 in the English version.  Could we

 5     have this on the screen, please.  It's the last paragraph in English, and

 6     regarding the B/C/S version, this is the second paragraph of Article 1,

 7     which refers to the setting up of a working group aimed at drawing a map

 8     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Have you ever found such a map?

10        A.   No, I've not found such a map.  I have not even found any

11     indication of a working version of such a map.

12             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 14 for the

13     English and page 13 for the B/C/S.  I'm interested in the paragraph

14     discussing the third strategic goal.

15        Q.   Could you please read it?  It is the third paragraph on the B/C/S

16     page and the second one on the English page.

17        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this.

18        Q.   This third strategic goal deals with the Drina Valley.  Could you

19     tell us exactly what is the importance of the Drina Valley for the

20     Republika Srpska?

21        A.   The Drina Valley was a strategic goal for Republika Srpska as

22     well as for Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, there were two different types

23     of interests involved.  The goal of Republika Srpska was to prevent this

24     area from being a border between the peoples in Republika Srpska and in

25     the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  The strategic goal of

Page 29959

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina with respect to this area is to isolate it and to

 2     create a border there between the Serbian people and the Federal Republic

 3     of Yugoslavia.  And the latter strategic goal was partly shared by the

 4     Croatian Community in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Militarily-wise, could you tell us whether this strategic

 6     objective, as written in these minutes, included the movement of the

 7     Muslim population living in the Drina Valley, the Muslim population?

 8        A.   Irrespective of the fact that the Trial Chamber has asked me to

 9     be up to the point, I have to provide a somewhat longer answer at the

10     moment.

11             First of all, there's no single military document that can be

12     created based on a proclamation, on an idea, on constitution or some

13     other documents.  Every military document has to start with a task that

14     is given to the military, and the task arises from the law, directives at

15     the national level.

16             Second of all, even if somebody were to formulate a strategic

17     goal, as it is, and try to incorporate it into the directive or any other

18     document, it is very precise in itself; and it does not imply any status

19     quo in regulating the situation once the area is conquered.

20        Q.   Can we now move back to page 13 in English, page 12 for the

21     B/C/S.  In the B/C/S version, I'm interested in the bottom of the page.

22     In English, it's the third paragraph from the bottom.  At the end of this

23     page in B/C/S, we see the first strategic objective, which is defined as

24     separation from the other two national communities, separation of states.

25             Now, tell us, military-wise, whether this strategic objective

Page 29960

 1     included moving the Muslim population out of the territories controlled

 2     by Republika Srpska.

 3        A.   The question whether this implies the movement of population is

 4     speculation.  The separation of states implies the creation of two states

 5     and everything that remains in these two states.  I don't see a

 6     possibility for the separation of state to imply movement of people.

 7             People had rights in the former Yugoslavia, and that right was

 8     honoured from Slovenia until the very end.  And as far as I could

 9     understand, this is what the representatives of Republika Srpska also

10     insisted on very strongly.

11        Q.   You already answered my next question, but I would like to be

12     very accurate.  So could you tell us exactly what was the position of the

13     Croats in Bosnia?

14             And in the meanwhile, I would like to show you also

15     document 5D546.  I need the first page in both versions.  This is a

16     document from the Regional Community of Herzegovina and Travnik, and the

17     paragraph starting right under "Conclusions," at the end of this

18     paragraph it says, and I quote:

19             [In English] "The Croatian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina

20     finally has to start conducting the decisive and tactic policy which

21     should bring about the realisation of our eternal dream, a joint Croatian

22     state."

23             [Interpretation] This document dates back to November 12, 1991.

24     Could you tell us whether this was the objective of the Croatian people?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

Page 29961

 1             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This objective of the Croatian people, is this objective of the

 3     Croatian people different from the first objective of the Serbian people

 4     that we have just seen in the previous document?

 5        A.   In the previous answer, the implication was of the people in

 6     Slovenia, Croatia and elsewhere, and this applies to the people in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It is a notorious fact that Bosnia-Herzegovina was

 8     often called a little Yugoslavia, and there were four strong groups in

 9     that state:  Muslim, Croat, Serb, and the fourth group were Yugoslavs,

10     and they were very strong.  When the former Yugoslavia broke up, the

11     three prevalent peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Muslims, Serbs and Croats,

12     had the same goal, but expressed in three different ways.  The Serbs

13     wanted Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

14     and to remain as a state in the former Yugoslavia, and they based their

15     goals on that.  If Bosnia-Herzegovina were to be separated, they wanted

16     the Republika Srpska to be separated as well and be joined with the

17     Federal Yugoslavia.

18             Muslims had their different goal, and Croats insist, which is

19     visible in this document, on two steps.  The first step would be to

20     create -- or, rather, to separate Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia and

21     to be independent, and the second step would be for Croatia -- for

22     Croatian people to form their banovina which would be joined with the

23     Republic of Croatia, which means that the goals of Serbs and Croats

24     overlapped, but from different directions, one from the left direction

25     and the other from the right direction.

Page 29962

 1        Q.   I would now like to show you some documents from the army of the

 2     Army of Republika Srpska from that period of time, 1992, and first of all

 3     I'd like to show you 5D962.

 4             While we're waiting for this document, this is an order from the

 5     Main Staff from 23rd of June, 1992.

 6             In this document, I'd like to show you point number 2.  This is

 7     page 2 both in B/C/S and in English.  Could you please read this item,

 8     the task of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   If I look at this paragraph 2, I can tell that the Army of

10     Serbian Republic of BH received a total of six tasks, which is only to be

11     expected at a time of war.  The first is to deblock roads.  The second is

12     for additional mobilisation, that's what they refer to it as, to engage

13     all able-bodied Serbian population.  Mobilisation, additional

14     mobilisation, implies involvement under the law and status in the Army of

15     Republika Srpska.  The third task being maintaining the roads that were

16     there already.  Task number 4 is to prevent a breakthrough from the

17     Spreca towards the Drina.  Number 6 is to secure other roads from

18     [indiscernible]-Han Pijesak-Vlasenica, and that's number 6, yes.  That's

19     the other road.  Number 5 is to fend off and repel enemy forces from this

20     line.  Yes, a total of six tasks.

21        Q.   Now, again, from a military standpoint, when a soldier receives

22     such a task, is the moving of the Muslim population something that is

23     included as part of the task, as part of those six tasks?

24        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska or, for that matter, the JNA or, for

25     that matter, any of the armies that emerged from the JNA throughout these

Page 29963

 1     areas never had any tasks, organs or, indeed, manpower to move any

 2     population at all.  If you don't have the tool, you can't do the job.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we please now move to document

 4     5D1199.  This is the order from the Main Staff from the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska, dated 12th August 1992.  This is about the region of

 6     the Drina River.

 7        Q.   I would like to show you page 2, both in the English and in the

 8     B/C/S versions, and this is still item number 2, which is about the tasks

 9     given to the Army of Republika Srpska.  In English, it's at the very

10     bottom of this page, and then it moves on to page number 3.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   This task, amongst others, highlights the protection of the

13     population.  How do you, as a military person, read this paragraph?  To

14     which population does this paragraph refer?

15        A.   The protection of the population was something that was done in

16     the JNA, and this was something for everyone who was involved in the

17     fighting, and there was fighting going on here.  Everyone involved had to

18     look after the population.  Now, how do they go about this?  There has to

19     be an early warning about any combat operations.  They should control the

20     firing in order to keep any collateral damage down.  It's about the ways

21     in which combat operations are performed and brought to an end.  This is

22     an ongoing task for all JNA units.  Whenever there are operations in

23     areas such as these, one has to look after the population.  There was

24     never a task that entailed moving any population group in any way at all

25     or based on anything at all.

Page 29964

 1        Q.   And how do you understand the last part of this task, which talks

 2     about humanitarian aid and supply of humanitarian aid that is given to

 3     the people in all the endangered areas?  Of what people -- what people

 4     are they talking about in this particular task?

 5        A.   If you read the task as phrased here, as it relates to

 6     humanitarian aid, you see this thing about the legal and planned

 7     distribution of humanitarian aid.  Then at first you think that the

 8     phrasing is somewhat verbose, because it might be phrased as follows

 9     "distribution of humanitarian aid," and that's that.  Nevertheless, at

10     the time we see increasingly these instances where humanitarian aid was

11     abused in a number of ways.

12             "Legal distribution of humanitarian aid" meant making sure that

13     such humanitarian aid as was distributed was real.  "Planned" means that

14     distribution was based on a plan.  There is no order here concerning

15     humanitarian aid for any particular population group.  This applied

16     equally to all the population that was there.

17        Q.   At the bottom of this page 2, there is a list of objectives for

18     these activities.  And then if you move on to page 3, and in English this

19     is actually page 4, throughout this whole page in this order, there is an

20     offer for disarming -- an offer that is made to the Muslim population for

21     disarmament.  Could you please explain what it means, "disarmament of the

22     population"?

23        A.   "Disarmament of the population" in this case must be seen as

24     twofold.  One thing is the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, it had a

25     theory on people [as interpreted].  There were different ways people were

Page 29965

 1     armed in order to preserve the integrity of the Socialist Federative

 2     Republic of Yugoslavia.  From that perspective, anyone in the possession

 3     of weapons was now called on to surrender their weapons, because there

 4     was a unified military now that was made legal, comprising the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska and the police.

 6             On the other hand, this disarmament and call that was issued also

 7     had the following reasons.  This was at the time when many, many units of

 8     the BH Army and many of their members were dressing up as civilians of

 9     women, disguising themselves in order to perform incursions and fight and

10     attack.  There is plenty of evidence indicating this.  Therefore, the

11     call was for both to disarm.

12        Q.   Well, there's a slight mistake on page 17, line 18.  What it says

13     in the transcript is "the theory of the people," but I think you talked

14     about the theory of the armed people.

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16        Q.   In the following paragraph, they talk about mopping up the

17     villages.  Can you please explain, from a military standpoint, what it

18     means to mop up villages?  This is somewhere in the middle of the second

19     paragraph.

20        A.   In the military sense, to mop up a village is something that is

21     familiar to any military in the world.  It means to eliminate all and any

22     enemy soldiers, to eliminate any weapons that are still around and place

23     them under control, as well as ammunition and any military equipment that

24     is still around.  That's what it means, to mop up a village.

25        Q.   Now, in the military terminology, mopping up something, that

Page 29966

 1     includes the transfer of a civilian population or moving a civilian

 2     population?

 3        A.   This is pure speculation.  I've never come across that, and I'm

 4     not sure where this sort of speculation arises from.

 5        Q.   I would now like to show you P29, Exhibit P29.  This is a

 6     directive from the Main Staff from 19th of November, 1992.

 7             Actually, what I'm interested in here is the task that was given

 8     to the Drina Corps by this directive.  In English, it's on page 5, and in

 9     B/C/S, on page 11 of the document.

10             This paragraph is hard to read.  The only sentence that I'm

11     really interested in as part of this task is that according to this

12     directive, the Drina Corps had, as a task, to force the enemy out of the

13     Birac, Zepa, and Gorazde areas, together with the Muslim population.

14             Now, you've already briefly touched upon the military terminology

15     and the term "population" as part of this terminology, as part of the

16     Yugoslav theory of the armed people, but could you please explain in

17     greater detail how, in this particular context, you construe this

18     sentence?

19        A.   This is not really legible, the portion that refers to the

20     Drina Corps, but one can sort of make out what it says.  The part of the

21     question that you asked me shouldn't be separated from the whole, because

22     down here I see it says "first offer the possibility of disarmament" and

23     all the other alternatives that were given to the Muslim population in

24     the area.

25             The essence of this task is as follows:  Any army, when at war,

Page 29967

 1     has the foremost task to beat the enemy.  The enemy is beaten in three

 2     possible ways.

 3             A, the enemy is crushed; B, the enemy surrenders and is captured;

 4     and, C, the enemy is driven away from the area in question.  And this is

 5     the alternative that is offered here for the task to be performed.

 6     Bearing in mind the experience that arises here, I would point out an

 7     anomaly.  The 19th of November, 1992, that's directive number 4.

 8             A total of four directives, roughly, over a five-month period

 9     issued by the Army of Republika Srpska, which means there was a great

10     deal of experience at work here.  They realised that the civilian

11     population was often being used as a shield or as a component of the

12     BH Army, and then a possibility was offered for those who were disarmed

13     and who accepted the government that was in place to remain in the area,

14     which was a perfectly legal thing to do and a perfectly fair thing to do.

15        Q.   We shall talk later about events which have taken place from 1993

16     to 1995, but can you please tell us briefly, very briefly, if the events

17     which took place in Srebrenica in July 1995, in Srebrenica and Zepa, can

18     be somehow connected to this directive number 4?

19        A.   In order to link up any elements from two different directives,

20     we must first know why a directive came about.  There are two primary

21     causes for something like this to come about.  One is the situation on

22     the ground and the other is the putative objective.  No directive, at

23     least as far as military theory goes, links up with any other directive.

24     Each directive is self-sufficient.  It contains a job.  It's completed or

25     not.  If not, then it's completed in a different way, depending on the

Page 29968

 1     causes, obviously.

 2             If you look at the situation on the ground, the situation that

 3     prevailed at the time, directive number 4, directive number 7 - I mean

 4     1995 - one realises there is nothing like that.  There are two entirely

 5     different situations on the ground.  If you look at the situation that

 6     prevailed in the armed forces, these are entirely different situations.

 7     If you look at the objectives that were set, these are two entirely

 8     different objectives.  There would be no logic in the linking up of these

 9     two directives in any sense at all.

10        Q.   I would like to show you now another document that dates from

11     1993, which is linked to directive number 4.  This is document 5D1323,

12     and this is the analysis from the Drina Corps of the operations carried

13     out on the basis of directives 4 and 5.

14             Could we please have page 4 in English and page 3 in B/C/S.

15             Right at the bottom of this page, you have the objectives and

16     tasks of the operation, operation on the basis of directive 4 for the

17     Drina Corps.  Could you please have a look at the tasks to be performed

18     by the Drina Corps?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In light of your previous answer, maybe this question is

21     irrelevant, but, however, in light of objective and the tasks of the

22     operation, as understood by the Drina Corps, is the transfer of

23     population something that was included in those tasks?

24        A.   What we see here is an excellent piece of analysis.  This is a

25     great link between this document and directive.  There are certain

Page 29969

 1     features here, but any army in the world knows that whenever an activity

 2     is completed, there needs to be some analysis of that activity.

 3             If you look at this analysis of the tasks, one sees very clearly

 4     what the tasks were for the Army of Republika Srpska in the Drina Corps,

 5     purely military tasks that they were facing, and these tasks were then

 6     analysed.

 7        Q.   Just before we move to a very different topic, I'd like to show

 8     you page 2 in B/C/S and page 2 in English as well, I think.  Towards the

 9     middle of the page, it reads, in English -- it's at the bottom of what we

10     see on the screen, so it reads:

11             [In English] "The planning operations was organised and planned

12     with the involvement wherever possible of the commanders of subordinate

13     units.  Decisions to engage forces in tasks that have been assigned were

14     adopted, in most cases, through the so-called command's complete method

15     of work."

16             [Interpretation] Later on, we shall talk about the various

17     working methods, command's working methods.  Now, at this stage, I would

18     only like to ask you if you can say, from what you have seen in your

19     research, what was the working method that was usually used in the units

20     of the Army of Republika Srpska?

21        A.   Any army, including the Army of Republika Srpska, used the normal

22     method, a normal method means a complete method, and then the commanders

23     are consulted.  The use of any other methods would be exceptional and

24     only for exceptional situations.  These are driven by necessity, method,

25     and other methods like that, and that's what the sentence would indicate.

Page 29970

 1             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, in light of the

 2     fact that we started a little late, what time do you think we will have

 3     the break?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  My idea was to have the break as scheduled, at

 5     10.30; in other words, in a couple of minutes.  But if you're dealing

 6     with a topic that will take you a little bit further, we can take it a

 7     little bit further.  It's up to you.

 8             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to move on to

 9     another topic, so it would be appropriate if we could take the break now.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then we will have a 25-minute break now.  Thank

11     you.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madame, go ahead.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   I would now like to talk about the establishment of the Army of

17     Republika Srpska.

18             Can you please show the witness Exhibit D754, please.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, 5D754.

20             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is the decision pertaining to the formation of the Army of

22     the Serbian -- the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina.  Now, in Article 1 it reads:

24             [In English] "The existing territorial defence units and staffs

25     shall be renamed as commands and units of the army, whose organisation

Page 29971

 1     and establishment shall be determined by the president of the Republic."

 2             [Interpretation] Now, this is a decision dated the 12th of May,

 3     1992.  Is this decision really the basis for the establishment of the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Yes.  This is a prerequisite for any state to establish an army.

 6        Q.   Pursuant to Article 3 of this decision, General Ratko Mladic was

 7     to be appointed as commander of the Main Staff of the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska.  Did General Mladic in the Army of Republika Srpska

 9     have the Supreme Command and authority?

10        A.   It's not easy to see that, based on this decision, but I will try

11     to shed light on that.

12             General Mladic was commander of the Main Staff of the Army of

13     Republika Srpska, but he was therefore commander of the Army of

14     Republika Srpska.  He was the supreme authority in that army, and he was

15     responsible for everything that the army was doing for everything that

16     was going on.  Nevertheless, General Mladic did have a commander who was

17     above him, the supreme commander, who had the authority to exercise

18     command over that army in keeping with all the military and other rules.

19        Q.   I would now like to show you the Constitution of

20     Republika Srpska.  This is Exhibit 5D752.

21             So this is the Constitution from December 1992, and I would like

22     to have page 8 in B/C/S and page 18 in English.

23             In Article 106, it says that the president of the Republic

24     commands with the Army of Republika Srpska at times of peace and war.

25     Now, who were the -- what were the authorities of the president of the

Page 29972

 1     Republic as compared with that of the Main Staff?

 2        A.   I think there's another section that Article 106 comprises.

 3     I think there's something else too --

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... show the following page in

 5     B/C/S, i.e., page 19 -- sorry, page 9, and this goes throughout the whole

 6     page.

 7        A.   This is the type of army and the type of command where the army

 8     is placed directly under the supreme commander.  And based on the

 9     previous paragraph, an enormous authority is given to the supreme

10     commander.  When I say "an enormous amount of authority," I mean the

11     civilian authorities were under too much of a burden, given this

12     phrasing.  But this is a practice that occurs all over the world and can

13     be considered as normal.

14             You can see here that the president of the Republic promotes or

15     dismisses the military officers.  It's all within his authority, in

16     keeping with the law.  He sets up military courts and exercises command

17     over the army.  When one exercises command over the army, then one knows

18     that one is responsible for the army, from the planning stage all the way

19     up to the control stage.  All of the command basis are in the hands of

20     the Republic [as interpreted]; the planning, the organisation, the

21     control, the personnel policies, and all the supervision.

22        Q.   I would now like to show you Exhibit 5D757.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, please.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I am sorry to interrupt.  I just

25     wondered if the witness could slow down a little bit.  I hear the

Page 29973

 1     translation is being rushed and it's a little difficult for me to keep

 2     up.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I think that's

 4     the case and if we could slow down, not too particularly, I mean it's the

 5     witness.  What happens here generally is what you say needs to be

 6     translated into English and into French, and that is not an easy job.  So

 7     if you could slow down a little bit.  Yes.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] May I just bring a correction to

11     the transcript.  This is page 25 and line 8 and 9.  I think you said that

12     all the functions of command were in the hands of the president of the

13     Republic.  The word "president" is not shown in the transcript.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now, the exhibit that is now on the screen is the order from the

17     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska from 18th of August, 1992,

18     about the establishment and the organisation of the Army of Republika

19     Srpska.  Now, there are just a few things on which I'd like to focus in

20     this particular order.

21             First of all, this order refers to a decision by the president of

22     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina from 15th of June, 1992, and then

23     it refers to information number 111.901.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction of the interpreter, 111.900.

25             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

Page 29974

 1        Q.   Before asking you a question, I would like to see that in your

 2     report.  There is a paragraph 45, which refers to this formation and at

 3     some point, you use the acronym "LRF."  Can you please explain to us what

 4     this formation 111.900 is about and then what this "LRF" acronym means?

 5             Now, this paragraph 45 that I'm referring to is on page 17 of the

 6     B/C/S version and on page 22 of the English version.  This is not this

 7     exhibit, it's the other exhibit, but I don't think it's necessary to show

 8     it.  This is Exhibit 5D759 of the expert report.

 9        A.   In order to understand how an army is organised, and based on how

10     an army is organised in order to understand the authorities, rights, and

11     responsibilities of an officer or any person who is part of that system,

12     I had to first analyse how an army was organised from scratch.

13             In the previous diagram, we saw an order to organise the army.

14     Its preamble invokes a decision by the president of the Republic

15     of Srpska.  It's a decision that I had never seen, knowing, nevertheless,

16     that between the Constitution and the order to organise an army, there is

17     always a decision by the supreme commander called "the foundations of the

18     organisation of an army," or something like that, one may therefore

19     assume that a document like that was never found.  One can also infer,

20     with an almost 100 percent probability, given the fact that the army was

21     functioning, that the command did exercise control over the army, that

22     there was such a thing as a supreme commander.  There was the defence

23     ministry, and the whole order was complied with.

24             There was this order to organise the army, which also defined the

25     Main Staff of the Army of the Republika Srpska.  The organisation or the

Page 29975

 1     structure of the Main Staff of the Army of the Republika Srpska is

 2     defined by a book that is called "Establishment."  The book is shown over

 3     there.  It had a number.  I don't quite remember what that number was.

 4     This book called "Establishment" is a document defining with precision

 5     the structure of an organisational unit, its manpower and manning level,

 6     their hierarchy, their subordination, and it also defines or determines

 7     elements that such an establishment post carries.  It also determines any

 8     personal weapons that belong to that establishment post.  The

 9     abbreviation "LRF3" is a form that is used to write up this

10     establishment.  The abbreviation stands for "Personal wartime

11     establishment, form number 3."

12             At the time in the Army of Republika Srpska, one used the same

13     type of documents as in the Army of Yugoslavia.  Somewhere around that

14     time, the forms were changed.  Therefore, if you look at the

15     establishment book, and this is something that has been submitted, you

16     will see that sometimes you will find "LRF3" and in some other places you

17     will find "LRF9."

18             However, in terms of their structure, the forms are identical,

19     making sure that the establishment could always be understood in the same

20     way.

21        Q.   May I now show you this book of establishment.  This is 5D758,

22     and this exhibit unfortunately has not been translated.  It's of poor

23     quality.  Actually, this is a form.

24             Now, this document which you now can see, is this about this

25     establishment you just talked about?

Page 29976

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.

 2             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Right.  Can we now show to the

 3     witness page 13 of this document.  This document has not been translated,

 4     and I would now therefore ask you to explain what these different columns

 5     are and what they mean.  In other words, what can you see in the first

 6     column?

 7        A.   These columns ensure that complete information is provided on the

 8     organisation in the establishment.  It would be easier to explain if we

 9     could zoom out a little bit.

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we have a smaller version,

11     please?

12        A.   Yes, like this, that's fine.  In the first column is the name of

13     the post.  This is the exact name of the establishment post, and each one

14     has a code.  This means that job descriptions can be provided by means of

15     a code, so no organisation can invent its own posts.  The names of the

16     organisational units at a lower level are also included in the columns,

17     so each post is precisely described, and no other job description can be

18     used other than the one described here in the establishment, because

19     based on the title of the post, the competences of the appropriate

20     commander are also described in the establishment.

21             In the next column, we have the number of posts.  If desk

22     officer, for example -- there are three desk officers somewhere, then we

23     have the number 3 here, and then the military/evidentiary specialty or

24     the occupational specialty describes the training that is needed for the

25     particular post or job description.  There are five numbers.  The first

Page 29977

 1     numbers -- the first two numbers refer to whether someone is a private,

 2     or an officer, or a non-commissioned officer.  If there is a 3, it has to

 3     be an officer, if there is a 2 it has to be a non-commissioned officer.

 4     Then the next numbers refer to the branch of service, and then -- or the

 5     arm of service, in fact, and then we have the training and education

 6     needed.  For example, we can see that the person has to be an officer,

 7     that he can belong to any arm of service, and that he has to have the

 8     national --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness slow down, please?

10        A.   He has to have the National Defence School training or education.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  General, please slow down a little bit.

12     Thank you.

13             By the way, do you speak in English at all, do you understand

14     English?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed, Ms. Fauveau.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the rank, there is the column

18     "Position group."  That is an element designating the rank and level of

19     the commander, and this is used to determine the salary later on.

20             Then the next two columns refer to weapons, personal or common

21     weapons, joint weapons that belong to that establishment post.  So we can

22     see here clearly that the commander is entitled to a pistol.  Then there

23     are some other numbers which do not belong to the establishment, but were

24     written in by whoever was using the document.

25             And then we have "Transport," means of transport of vehicles,

Page 29978

 1     whether a trailer is required, livestock, and main means of

 2     communication.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you please tell the Court about the groups of positions, how

 5     these groups were determined?

 6        A.   The groups of positions or posts were established by law.  The

 7     law regulated that every post is described inter alia by the position

 8     group.  The number of the position group, the smaller it is, the more

 9     complex the post and the higher level the post.  So here we can see the

10     commander has the position group 2.  The disposition of the position

11     groups for the other establishment posts is defined by special criteria.

12     Nowhere in the documentation have I found the defined criteria.

13             However, when this is compared to the disposition of the position

14     groups in the Army of Republika Srpska with the positions that I actually

15     found, I concluded that the same criterion was used as in the Army of

16     Yugoslavia.  This criterion ensures that throughout the army, there is a

17     single way of defining the character of every post according to its

18     position in the army.

19        Q.   And just before we move to the law about the army, you said that

20     the position group for the commander is 2.  Can you please say -- can you

21     please read from this document what is the position group for the head of

22     the main -- of the staff, for the staff head?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, Chief of Staff, interpreter's

24     correction.

25        A.   There is no chief of the Main Staff.  There is the chief of the

Page 29979

 1     staff of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  It's a little

 2     bit complicated, but the hierarchy of the units and the sequence of units

 3     has been respected here.  If you look at the organisational unit staff,

 4     the Chief of Staff, who is the deputy of the commander, has position

 5     group 3.  He has to be a general, and he can be from any arm of service

 6     or any service, but he has to be an officer.

 7        Q.   Below this part, it mentions the administration in charge of

 8     operational affairs and education.  Can you read the position group or

 9     the head of administration in charge of operational affairs and

10     education?

11        A.   To facilitate understanding, I will read all the elements to you.

12             The chief of the Administration for Operational Affairs and

13     Education is an officer from an arm of service who has the

14     National Defence School and who can be granted the rank of a colonel or a

15     major general, and according to some criteria, I would say that this

16     belongs to the sixth position group.  It could be the fifth or the sixth,

17     but I think that according to the criteria, it would be the sixth group.

18        Q.   I would now like to show you Exhibit 5D753, which is the law

19     pertaining to the Army of Republika Srpska.  This is a law dated from 1st

20     of June 1992.  I would like to have article 179, which is on page 17 in

21     B/C/S and page 67 in English.

22             Paragraph 2 gives a number of criteria in order to ascertain the

23     position groups, and in paragraph 1, which is on the previous page in the

24     English version, it says how the salary of officers is determined.  Now,

25     one sees in paragraph 2 -- paragraph 2 mentions the tasks granted to an

Page 29980

 1     officer given to his position, his responsibilities and other criteria.

 2             Now, what about the criteria listed here in the law of

 3     Republika Srpska; are these the usual criteria, the ones that you have

 4     also seen in the Army of the former Yugoslavia?

 5        A.   These are almost the same criteria as I used in any army.  Here,

 6     it is specifically stated that the formation is a special position group,

 7     and it says on the basis of what the criteria to be established for each

 8     such group.  What I have seen from the document with the establishment of

 9     the JNA, because I have had opportunity to see those, and those of the

10     Army of Republika Srpska, the Army of Yugoslavia, the BH Army, and the

11     establishment of the Macedonian Army, the criteria are so similar that

12     one might say they're actually identical.

13        Q.   Can you please now refer to Article 177, which is on this same

14     page, a little further up on the page, and in English it's on page 66.

15     We see the criteria determining the salary.  The first of this criteria

16     is the rank.  Could you tell us the importance of rank in the Army of

17     Republika Srpska?

18        A.   As in any army, the hierarchy and subordination are reflected

19     inter alia in the ranks, and these ranks made it easier to determine the

20     position of every individual within the army.

21             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now have page 1 of this

22     document, please, page 1 in B/C/S, which corresponds to page 2 in the

23     English version.  I'm interested in Article 4.

24        Q.   We see that there can be superior officers, subordinate officers,

25     as well as senior or junior officers.  Could you please take a look at

Page 29981

 1     paragraph 3 of Article 4.  It's on the other page at the very top in the

 2     B/C/S version.  Here, there is a definition of a senior officer, a brief

 3     definition.  But I'm a layperson, so I would like you to explain exactly

 4     what is a senior officer in a unit.  Could you tell us exactly what is

 5     the function of this person?

 6        A.   This is one of the universal rules or standards, whatever you

 7     choose to call them.  It's difficult to resolve the issue of subordinates

 8     and superiors.  This is something that exists in any organisation.  We

 9     all know who is boss and who isn't.  Regardless of this, military systems

10     are very peculiar and they work under different conditions.  They are

11     based on a firm hierarchy and subordination.

12             They must deal with issues such as the following:  For example,

13     you have persons in the same place between whom there is no relationship

14     of subordination.  In a situation like that, you have to know who is the

15     first in command and who is the second.  So this is what senior and

16     junior means.  The criterion for defining senior and junior is defined

17     here in a simple way.  If you have a number of officers in the same place

18     separated by nothing in terms of hierarchy, the most senior officer among

19     those will be the highest-ranking officer.  If they all have the same

20     ranks, the officer with the highest responsibility or duty will be

21     charged in that group.  And this is how they make sure that there is

22     always some form of hierarchy, even if purely for the sake of protocol.

23        Q.   I would now like to show you another document, 5D751.  It's not

24     translated in the system, but we have the translation here at hand.

25             This is the service regulations for the armed forces.  This is a

Page 29982

 1     document that comes from the JNA.  I would like to show you page 17 in

 2     the B/C/S, item 37, on page 1 in the English.

 3             MR. JOSSE:  Could the translation be put on the ELMO, please?

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think it is already, I'm told.

 5             MR. JOSSE:  Ah, yes, I beg your pardon.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay, thank you.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In paragraph 37, item 2, the following is written --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Before you proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             I'm sorry for interrupting.  Our device here for the ELMO and

12     e-court, et cetera, is out of commission, so I can't see what's on the

13     ELMO or in e-court; and I wondered if my colleague might have an extra

14     hard copy of the translation for me.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you have an extra copy?  If you don't, I can

16     give him mine and I can share -- I can follow on the ELMO, myself.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I do

18     appreciate it.

19             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   In item 2, paragraph 37 of this regulation, it states, and I

21     quote:

22             [In English] "If their superior officer is absent and prompt

23     measures need to be taken to ensure the fulfillment of urgent tasks,

24     particularly in combat, emergency situations or in restoring disrupted

25     work organisation and prescribed order and discipline, persons serving in

Page 29983

 1     the armed forces must carry out orders issued by the most senior officer

 2     present."

 3             [Interpretation] Was this rule also applied in the

 4     Army of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Yes, it was.  This rule was applied in the Army of Republika

 6     Srpska.  This is a rule that is applied in any army, as a matter of fact.

 7        Q.   I would like to now show you document P417.  This is the

 8     service manual -- temporary service manual for the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska, dated August 1992.  And we need page 10 on the screen,

10     page 10 in both versions.  I would like to have item 2 on the screen, at

11     the very bottom of the page in B/C/S.

12             The rule that we see drafted here, could you tell us whether it

13     reflects the previous rule that we saw in the previous document that was

14     a JNA document and it had to do with the senior officer?

15        A.   Yes, essentially it's the same thing.  There is no need for me to

16     add anything.  But the previous one was a little more specific in detail.

17     However, they both reflect this senior/junior relationship.

18        Q.   Practically, according to the information you had, could you tell

19     us whether, in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, if the

20     commander and the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff were absent, who would

21     have been the senior officer?

22        A.   What you just said, when you talk about them being absent, you

23     need to be more specific.  There is a rule that says a commander is

24     always in his unit, even when a command is not in the room.  For example,

25     if the commander of the Army of Republika Srpska and the chief of the

Page 29984

 1     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska happen not to be in an area,

 2     yet all of the other officers of the Main Staff of the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska are there, then one knows exactly who the most senior

 4     officer is.  Establishment-wise, it is the chief of the sector for

 5     morale, legal and religious affairs.

 6        Q.   In -- could General Miletic have been the senior officer in the

 7     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in a given circumstance?

 8        A.   There is a possibility and there is a model that he could have

 9     been seen as the most senior officer in the Main Staff of the Army

10     of Republika Srpska, General Miletic or the head of Administration for

11     Teaching and Operations, but this would be, as it were, a headless model

12     or a pointless model.

13        Q.   Let me now move to your report, item 5D759.  I need page 15 in

14     the B/C/S version and page 18 in the English.

15             Could you tell us exactly what this organisational chart

16     represents?

17        A.   This is a diagram of the organisational structure of the

18     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  It represents four levels.

19     Whenever you see a diagram like this, you can always find out what the

20     elements are of each of these organisational units, what the hierarchy

21     is, and how the links and relations between the various organisational

22     units operate.

23        Q.   In paragraph 38 on page 16 of the B/C/S version, and page 20 of

24     the English version, you state that this organisational chart shows the

25     order and sometimes -- and in some places also the rank.  So could you

Page 29985

 1     tell us what is the meaning of the order and what is the meaning of the

 2     rank in this organisational chart?  And if we could have the

 3     organisational chart back on the screen, page 18 for the English and 15

 4     for the B/C/S.

 5        A.   Bearing in mind the fact that, as I was reading certain

 6     materials, I realised that there was a huge problem concerning the

 7     understanding of this relationship, this senior/junior,

 8     subordinate/superior representation and standing in for, from the

 9     beginning of this expert report I wanted to indicate something that I

10     have chosen to call "rank and order."  Before moving on to this diagram,

11     we could talk about ranks, first rank, second rank, first row, second

12     row, in a sense, you might call them, and so on and so forth.  As far as

13     "order" is concerned, we might apply that name to the columns, the

14     vertical categories within that rank or order.  I wanted to show that in

15     this diagram in two ways; one being the size of the square that stands

16     for an organisational unit.  If you look at the diagram, it's easy to

17     see.  And the other way is to use colour to mark that.  However, these

18     documents were not scanned in colour, although originally they were

19     produced in colour, so this is now moot.  That's how I did it, and now

20     I'll try to explain the diagram.

21             At the very top of the system, you see the commander.  The first

22     rank is represented by the staff, the sectors, and the independent

23     administrations.  Within that rank, you see their order.  It's clearly

24     reflected in the diagram.  This rank and this order are deduced from two

25     documents, one being the establishment book, which is something that

Page 29986

 1     we've been looking at, and it has been shown, and the other being the

 2     organisation/mobilisation development book which is not in existence,

 3     unfortunately, nor indeed has it been reconstructed, as it were.  The

 4     second rank is the blue boxes or squares.  They are smaller than the

 5     sectors, the second row, and you can see that we have the teaching and

 6     operations administration.  We see all of the branches there and all of

 7     the organisational units.  So this is the order, and all the other

 8     administrations have departments, and the sector for security and

 9     information has two administrations.  This is displayed on two levels,

10     and the third one shows the administrations within -- the departments

11     within the administrations.

12        Q.   Could you give us the -- explain the difference between the

13     Main Staff and the Staff?

14        A.   Certainly.  If you look at the diagram, you see that the

15     Main Staff is an organisational unit comprising the staff, the sectors,

16     and the dependent administrations with all its units.  The Staff is an

17     organisational unit within the Main Staff.  It has its own pre-defined

18     authorities or areas of authority.  That is why it is often unacceptable

19     to speak of the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.  There is no such position.  There is the Chief of

21     Staff of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could, I just wanted -- I think the

23     translation is mistaken or erroneous, and page 39 looks like line 1.

24     I think the distinction that the expert was drawing was one referring to

25     the Chief of Staff of the army, as distinct from the Chief of Staff of

Page 29987

 1     the staff.  I think that's not properly recorded in the record on

 2     page 39, line 1.  If I'm mistaken, just please let me know, but I think

 3     that's what he said.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Could we have a confirmation of that from you,

 5     General, please.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  My apologies.  Could we have a confirmation of that

 8     from you, General, please?  You follow what Mr. Vanderpuye has just

 9     pointed out?  What we have on the transcript at line 1 of page 39 is --

10     or thereabouts:

11             "This is why it is often unacceptable to speak of the Chief of

12     Staff of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  There is no

13     such position.  There is the Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of the Army

14     of Republika Srpska," which read together are a contradiction in terms.

15             Madame, I suggest you handle it straight away.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Could you please slowly repeat what you said earlier?  What is

18     the position that does not exist in the Army of Republika Srpska?

19     Slowly, please.

20        A.   Before I say it, we should go back to the previous page,

21     "Establishment," and then I'll tell you what does not exist.

22             In the Army of Republika Srpska, there is no chief of the

23     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   And can you now tell us what was the function of

25     General Milovanovic?

Page 29988

 1        A.   What exists is Chief of Staff of the staff, of the Main Staff of

 2     the Army of Republika Srpska, and we can look at the establishment

 3     diagram so I can point it out to you.

 4             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we please display page 5D758.

 5     Page 13 of this document.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Madame Fauveau.

 7             Can I draw your attention to page 31, line 7.  I wonder whether

 8     that's a misinterpretation as well.  Here it is recorded that there is no

 9     chief of the staff; there is chief of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe this was a translation

11     error, but I did not pick it up.

12             JUDGE KWON:  You can confirm with the witness again on this

13     point.

14             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   On page 31, line 7, we have the following sentence in the

16     transcript:

17             [In English] "There is no chief of the staff.  There is the chief

18     of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska."

19             [Interpretation] The sentence that I just read you, can you tell

20     us whether the sentence I just read you corresponds to what you exactly

21     said?

22        A.   I'm getting dizzy from all these definitions, and I can imagine

23     what's going on with you.  In order to resolve this problem, can you

24     please put the establishment of the Main Staff on the screen, and

25     whatever errors have been made I think should be clarified forever.

Page 29989

 1             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we have document 5D758 on the

 2     screen, please.  Page 13, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's sufficient.

 4             I will try to tell you now about what this diagram shows and what

 5     gives rise to this dilemma.

 6             You can see duty here, Chief of Staff, who is also a deputy

 7     commander.  This Chief of Staff is in the staff, and this staff is in the

 8     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  Awkward, but true, as a

 9     matter of fact.

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Maybe the witness could mark this

11     document so we see where exactly it is the Chief of Staff of the

12     Main Staff.

13        Q.   Could you please mark this document and circle "Main Staff of the

14     Army of Republika Srpska"?  It's at the very top of the page.  Could you

15     circle it, please.

16        A.   This is the order in which it should be read, Chief of Staff, 2,

17     and in the staff, in the Main Staff of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   For everything could be clear, could you tell us exactly what

19     number 1 corresponds to?

20        A.   Number 1 means Chief of Staff who is also deputy commander.  This

21     is Colonel General Milovanovic's duty.  Number 2 means the Chief of Staff

22     is in Staff.  Number 3 means that the Staff is in the Main Staff of the

23     Army of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please initial this document and also place

25     the date, January 12, 2009.

Page 29990

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I think we still have a translation

 3     mistake on page 41, line 25.

 4        Q.   So could you please repeat what corresponds to number 2?

 5        A.   Number 2 is "Duty, Chief of Staff."  Also deputy commander -- no,

 6     no, sorry, 2 is "Staff," staff, organisational unit, staff.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Could we save

 8     this document, please.

 9             I would like to return to your report, document 5D759 page 16 in

10     B/C/S and 21 in the English version.

11        Q.   Could you please tell us what is the structure of the Staff, as

12     we see it on this organisational chart in figure 4?

13        A.   From the establishment of the Main Staff of the Army of

14     Republika Srpska, and assuming that this establishment is in line with

15     the mobilisation plan, one can see that it is organised at two levels.

16             On the first level is the Administration for Operations and

17     Training and the arms of service, with the information technology

18     service; and at the second level we have the organisational units which

19     are below those of the first level, so that the Administration for

20     Operations and Training has a department for operations, a department for

21     training, and then operations centre, whereas the information technology

22     has an office and a typing pool.

23             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Can we show page 70 to the witness,

24     page 70 in the report in B/C/S, corresponding to page 88 of the English.

25        Q.   Here, you wrote that General Miletic was the 6th by rank and the

Page 29991

 1     24th by order in the Republika Srpska.  I would like to show you the

 2     organisational scheme that we have on the previous page in B/C/S, and

 3     English, it's page 88.  In B/C/S, it corresponds to page -- to the top of

 4     the page.

 5             According to this organisational chart which you drew, could you

 6     tell us how you were able to determine the rank of General Miletic, as

 7     well as the order he had?

 8        A.   The document concerning the rank and the order of commanding

 9     officers in an army is something that almost every army in the world

10     should have.  This document is, first of all, important so that position

11     groups can be harmonised, so that replacements can be made, and also for

12     purposes of protocol.

13             Reading the documents linked to this case, I have seen that very

14     often there was a lot of confusion about what commanding officer in the

15     Army of Republika Srpska held what rank.  Bearing in mind they had an

16     order on the operation of the Army of Republika Srpska, that they also

17     had the establishment, that I had a large number of orders, I contacted

18     additional interviews with those officers who dealt with organisation

19     within the Army of Republika Srpska and established, on the basis of all

20     this, the precise rank and order in the Army of Republika Srpska.  This

21     is the rank at army level, where at first the rank is commander, the

22     second are his assistants and Chief of Staff, or, rather, the chief of

23     staff and assistants.  Then the third are the corps commanders; fourth

24     are the chief of staffs of the corps and the commander of the training

25     centre; five, the chiefs of the independent administrations, and five

Page 29992

 1     [as interpreted], the chiefs of the administrations, and then I didn't go

 2     into any further details.  Based on all this, I reached the conclusion

 3     presented here.  I have checked this diagram with a large number of

 4     officers engaged in organisational work, and they all agreed with every

 5     detail of this diagram.

 6        Q.   I would now like to show you document P692.  This is another

 7     organisational chart, but it is not one you drafted, yourself.  Could you

 8     please look at this organisational chart of the Main Staff of the VRS,

 9     and tell us whether this organisational chart is accurate.

10        A.   I expected to see this diagram clearly and precisely in this

11     court, but it's very hard to understand, as are all the documents I've

12     been shown here so far.  However, I have managed to decipher much that I

13     needed, and my first conclusion is as follows:  The title of this diagram

14     does not correspond with its contents.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we help him by giving him a hard copy, if this

16     is available?  But I think if we have a hard copy, it will make things

17     easier for him.

18             Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I may have one.  I'd just like

20     counsel to take a look at it and make sure it's the same thing first.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, sure.  You need to show it to Madame Fauveau,

22     please, and any other Defence counsel who's interested in looking at it.

23     Is there any other Defence counsel who want to make sure what the witness

24     is given?

25             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It's not absolutely similar.  I

Page 29993

 1     believe that this is a more recent organisational chart than the one we

 2     have in the file.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It may very well be.  This is a working draft

 4     that we have, and I just happened to have it in court.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  The thing is whether we can use it or not.  If you

 6     prefer not to use it, Madame, then we will not use it.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, we can use it, we can use it.

 8     There are some slight differences, but I believe that the witness will

 9     find his way in this document.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Josse.

11             MR. JOSSE:  It can't be used, in our submission, because we would

12     then need to have a copy of it on the ELMO, unless there is a copy on the

13     ELMO for us all to see it.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  As it is, it is on the ELMO, but as it is -- sorry,

15     it's not on the ELMO, it's on the e-court.

16             MR. JOSSE:  I'm talking about the different version, Your Honour.

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  That's a printout out of e-court?

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's not a printout out of e-court,

20     Mr. President.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, no, but the Registrar, Registry has made it.

22     This is harder to read, and I don't think putting it on the ELMO is going

23     to help.  What we can do is we can show this to the witness as an aid,

24     and put it on the ELMO in case we need to refer to it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The witness hasn't studied that version.

Page 29994

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes, but the variations seem to be minimal.

 2             MR. JOSSE:  Sorry to be difficult.  If the variations are not

 3     material, then of course it doesn't matter, but --

 4             THE COURT:  Well, I'm not in a position to say whether they are

 5     material or not, but I understood Madame Fauveau to indicate that they

 6     are not material.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I'm

 8     concerned, they are not, but maybe for my colleague, it might be better

 9     to use what we have in e-court and then zoom in on some parts as we need

10     them.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, okay, we can do that.  I mean, as I

12     said, the whole idea was to provide an aid to the witness.  In our case,

13     we can blow up what we have in the e-court, but I don't think that the

14     witness can stay doing that.  I mean --

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] I believe that we'll make it with

16     the witness, we'll find a way.  Don't worry.

17             Could we please zoom the top part of the document in order to see

18     the two first blocks.  It might be a complicated exercise, but I'm sure

19     that we will manage.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we go through it bit by bit, as we are doing

21     now, and zoom in on the different parts that you need to refer the

22     witness to.  I think that can be done without any difficulty at all.

23             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In these two blocks that you have on the screen, could you tell

25     us whether there are parts that you believe are erroneous?

Page 29995

 1        A.   One thing I would like to ask you is to zoom in -- or, rather,

 2     not to zoom in, but to show me the entire document so I can explain more

 3     easily.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Why, perhaps, had you left it there,

 5     Madam Registrar --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, like this, like this.  This is

 7     what I find appropriate.

 8             By Your Honour's leave, could my suggestions be inscribed in this

 9     diagram?

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't understand that.  What do you mean by

11     inscribing your suggestions in this diagram?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to show what is not correct.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, yes, okay.

14             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] It will be easier so the witness

15     can mark where he finds errors, or mistakes, or problems.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam Usher, please, you need to assist the witness

17     to show him how he can mark the document that we have on e-court.

18             Can we zoom in a little bit more.  No, no, that's not -- okay,

19     leave it at that.

20             Now, General -- leave it as it is.  You can -- all right.  You

21     can put any markings that you wish.  Fine like that, yeah, leave it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Can you see the title?

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, but this one will read --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks] My first conclusion was

Page 29996

 1     that the diagram does not correspond to its title.  The title is "The

 2     Structure of the Main Staff of the VRS in July 1995," whereas the

 3     contents include units of the Army of Republika Srpska, not its

 4     Main Staff.  So this is not actually part of this diagram.  It shouldn't

 5     be here.

 6             Secondly --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, because for the record --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, because for the record we need to

10     describe what you have done.

11             When the witness made this statement, he crossed out, at the

12     bottom of the document, all the boxes in the last two rows, starting from

13     1st Krajina Corps to 10th Sabotage Detachment; in total, eight boxes.

14             Yes, we can now proceed.

15             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Just to be absolutely sure, what has been struck out are

17     6th Corps, the 65th Protection Regiment and the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

18     Is this what you have struck out and what you wanted to strike out?

19        A.   No.  All the corps represented here, all the units, they were not

20     within the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  They were

21     subordinate to it, but they were not part of it.  So the 1st Corps, the

22     2nd [indiscernible] Bosniak Corps, the Drina Corps, the Herzegovina

23     Corps, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, the 65th, and the 10th Sabotage

24     Detachment have been crossed out.

25             The next salient point here is that the structure depicted does

Page 29997

 1     not correspond to the organisation it has been derived from.  The place

 2     of the Chief of Staff should be here [Marks], not up there.

 3        Q.   For things to be clear, could you please draw a cross on the

 4     place where the chief of the Main Staff is at the moment on this diagram?

 5        A.   Where it is now or where does it belong?

 6        Q.   On this diagram.

 7        A.   It's here [Marks].  I've marked it with a figure 1, which I've

 8     circled.  That's where he is.  And where he should be is where I've drawn

 9     the square.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But, General, can he not be there as a deputy

11     commander?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is the Chief of Staff and also

13     the deputy commander, but that is a single duty.  It cannot be divided

14     into two.  All the rights and obligations he has, as deputy commander of

15     the Main Staff, stem from his duty as Chief of Staff, who is also the

16     deputy commander.  So pulling him out of his rank like this does not hold

17     water.  That's the functional sort of organisational characterized by the

18     NATO forces.  That's what's represented here, but that's not the actual

19     situation in the Army of Republika Srpska, which is why there are double

20     lines of command here, but these did not actually exist in the VRS.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, thank you.

22             Proceed, Madame Fauveau.

23             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now, the regarding the function of the Chief of Staff of the

25     Main Staff, in this box that's not at the right place we see:

Page 29998

 1             "Assistant commander and chief of the Main Staff."

 2        A.   That does not exist.

 3        Q.   Just a second, please.  You already explained that the function

 4     of the chief of the Main Staff does not exist, the Chief of Staff of the

 5     Main Staff does not exist; but was General Milovanovic assistant to the

 6     commander?

 7        A.   No, that is incorrect.  He was the Chief of Staff, also the

 8     deputy commander in the staff of the Main Staff, and his place is where I

 9     have depicted it here.

10             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Could we now -- I would like to

11     know first whether we can zoom in on the organisational chart, as it is.

12     No?  That's too bad.

13        Q.   Maybe possibly -- so now at this stage could you please initial

14     the document and place the date, because we will continue with another

15     version of the document.  Otherwise, it's going to be too complicated.

16        A.   If I may make a suggestion, I would introduce two or three other

17     changes which would not be complicated.

18        Q.   Go ahead.

19        A.   In addition to this [Marks], these double lines of command, which

20     I am crossing out now [Marks], do not exist.  They lead from the Chief of

21     Staff to the other organisational units.  And, further, the order of the

22     organisational units is all mixed up.  As I've been able to see in the

23     diagram shown a little while ago, there it's in order, so this

24     organisational unit should be in position 6 [Marks].  That's the

25     Administration for the Air Force and Anti-Aircraft Defence.  This

Page 29999

 1     organisational unit for intelligence and security affairs [Marks] should

 2     be in position 4.  Only the staff remains in the first place.  The

 3     organisational unit, I think it says for logistics here, its actual

 4     position should be 3 [Marks].

 5        Q.   Just a second.  You are at the Department for Moral, Religious

 6     and Legal Affairs.  That's the box you're at, where you placed the 3; is

 7     that it?

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  I heard the translation as referring to logistics,

 9     but I think you're right, it needs to be cleared up or clarified.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't see very well.  I do

11     apologise.  So instead of 3, it should be 2 here, the number 2 [Marks].

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  But he, in the transcript, he had the

13     reference to 3 before.  I would have preferred to have the 3 crossed out,

14     rather than have it deleted.

15             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next organisational unit, as

18     far as I can see, is for mobilisation and personnel affairs.  That should

19     be number 5 [Marks].  That's its correct order.

20             The next -- finally we have logistics here, and it's real place

21     is in position 3 [Marks].  That's the one I crossed out before.  And then

22     there's the Administration for Planning and Deployment, and that's 7

23     [Marks].  So the fact that it's all mixed up here makes it hard to

24     establish the order of the officers, and it also -- it also is not in

25     line with the establishment according to which this diagram was supposed

Page 30000

 1     to be drawn up.

 2             The next point is that the staff here is called the staff of arms

 3     of service.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, because at least according to the

 5     interpretation, you referred to the last box as Administration for

 6     Planning and Deployment.  In reality, what at least I have on the screen,

 7     being the last one, is Department for Development and Finance.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  You're right,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  So number 7 would represent what, then, the

11     Department for Development and Finance or --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the Administration for

13     Planning and Finance, yes.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Yes, yes, but before the break, because I

15     need to it cleared.

16             If you were to redraw, yourself, this chart therefore, you have

17     moved the box where there is "Milovanovic" right below the "Mladic" box.

18     He would still be number 1, no, Milovanovic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In that row, yes, he would be

20     number 1.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  And then 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

22             Okay, I think we can have the break now.

23             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Just before we take the break,

24     could the witness just sign the document, please, and the date.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are we finished with this?

Page 30001

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you kindly sign your name at the top right-hand

 2     corner under those seven numbers or eight numbers, yes.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Is that your signature?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 7             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, in my understanding, the

 8     witness would like to continue, but we can do that after the break, I

 9     suppose.  But on the same chart, I think that he has a number of changes

10     that he would like to bring.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right, okay.  I leave it up to you, whether to

12     save it now or save it later.  It's up to you.

13             Thank you, 25 minutes.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

16             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Just before we proceed, could you please put number 1 above the

18     area devoted to the staff, please.

19             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just wonder if my

22     colleague would have the witness clarify whether the number 1 relates

23     specifically to General Milovanovic or to the sectors as a general

24     proposition.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Ms. Fauveau.

Page 30002

 1             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   All these numbers which you have put above the various boxes and

 3     sectors, are these numbers referring to the sectors, or to the heads or

 4     chiefs of those sectors, or to both?

 5        A.   The numbers applies to the sectors, and the segments apply to

 6     their heads.

 7        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer, as I'm not sure that it has

 8     been well recorded.

 9        A.   The numbers that I placed on this diagram are in reference to the

10     sectors.  When they are in reference to the sectors, then they are also

11     in reference to the heads of those sectors.

12        Q.   And could you please now write number 1 above the sector for the

13     staff, please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Now, you said there are also other mistakes in this chart.  Could

16     you please tell us what you had in mind?

17        A.   At the beginning, I said there was an error in substance, and we

18     dealt with that by doing the drawings on the diagrams.  As far as

19     structural errors are concerned, we dealt with that by establishing the

20     order in the diagram.  As far as errors with links and relations are

21     concerned, I would just like to say now that these are fictitious links,

22     and whenever there's an X, that's what it means.  And there are two types

23     of error that remain.  In terms of the nomenclature, what the

24     organisational units are called, and also about not naming the specific

25     duties.  I would first like to say something about errors concerning the

Page 30003

 1     nomenclature, the names of the organisational units.

 2             Each military organisation has the names of units specifically

 3     defined, and each unit has a certain rank.  In the case at hand, and I'm

 4     talking about the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, there are

 5     sectors, sectors on an equal level as the staff.  You have

 6     administrations, departments and sections.

 7             The person who produced this diagram put the staff on an equal

 8     footing with the branch's staff, but that doesn't exist, and that's the

 9     name right here [indicates].

10             Secondly, this person did not provide a criterion in terms of how

11     he translated the organisational units of the Main Staff of the Army of

12     Republika Srpska into English.  In my study, I clearly established that

13     criterion.  The sectors in the Serbian are sectors in the English.

14     Administrations in the Serbian are departments in the English.  And

15     departments, I think we use the word "section" for that.  I see that it's

16     not here.

17             In keeping with that, here you have a large number of sectors

18     that are termed administrations or administrations put on an equal

19     footing with sectors.  In keeping with this criterion, one needs to

20     establish certain distinctions.  The staff remains.

21             Number 2, the Department for Morale, Religion and all that is not

22     a department; rather, it should read "sector."

23             Number 3, again another sector, not a department.

24             Number 4, again "sector," not "department."

25             Number 5, "sector," not "department."

Page 30004

 1             Number 6 and number 7 are departments.

 2             This name of an organisational unit also applies to the

 3     Administration for Training and Operations, and also for the information

 4     administration and the security administration.  In keeping with this

 5     criterion, it is necessary to redraw this diagram, because this is very

 6     important in terms of determining the ranks in order to follow.

 7             The last part is about appointments or not appointing.  I looked

 8     at two duties specifically, General Milovanovic first of all.  It reads

 9     "chef glavno staba," chief of the Main Staff.  We've got that clarified

10     and we put an end to that, but then below that it reads "assistant

11     commander, deputy commander."  He wasn't a deputy commander.  He was the

12     Chief of Staff and also the deputy commander in the operations and

13     teaching administration, it reads, next to General Miletic's [Realtime

14     transcript read in error, "Milutinovic"] name "chief" or "deputy chief."

15     He never was the deputy chief, as a matter of fact.  I didn't really

16     check all the other duties well because the diagram and the entire expert

17     report was impossible to scan in that respect.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             My colleague has pointed out to me that at line 13, there's a

21     reference to General Milutinovic in the record.  I believe it should say

22     "General Miletic."

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  You agree to that?

24             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, Your Honour, I

25     agree, and I'd like to thank my colleague for that.

Page 30005

 1             Now, I think that we can now save this exhibit and that we shall

 2     no longer need it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  General Kosovac, you said that the administration or

 4     "ubrava" in B/C/S should be translated into "department," didn't you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a matter of convention.  The

 6     standard that we used was that "ubrava" should be translated as

 7     "department" and "sektor" remains "sector."

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Does it equally apply to the "ubrava za ONP," which

 9     is headed by Mr. Miletic?  This should be translated to "Department for

10     Operation and Training"?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Department for

12     Operations and Teaching, not for Operations.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Does that unit have the same level as other

14     departments; for example, Department for Mobilisation of Persons and

15     those things?

16             THE WITNESS:  "Mobilisation" is "sector," this is the same level

17     as the security department and intelligence department.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I had in mind mobilisation, planning and finance or

19     air force department.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The two departments have a

21     higher level than the operations and teaching one.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Even if they are using the same terminology, that

23     is, "ubrava"?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  These are

25     departments that are at a higher level of organisation.

Page 30006

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Madame Fauveau-Ivanovic.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry to interrupt again.  I just want my

 5     colleague to clarify or have clarified because there is references to

 6     these departments in the expert report that are referred to as

 7     "administrations" in the report, and I wonder if we could clarify that.

 8     In particular, I could refer to you paragraph 39 in the English.

 9             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, you know, as far as I'm

10     concerned, I'd rather translate "ubrava" by "administration" in English,

11     but, you know, this is a linguistic issue.  But maybe the witness can use

12     the terms in B/C/S, which will make it easier, and maybe explain the

13     difference between the two administrations at a higher level and the

14     administrations -- and the three other levels of administrations at a

15     lower level, for us to better understand what this is all about.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The department as an organisational

17     unit, the criterion to establish one, is the sort of business that it

18     transacts and the number of people who are involved, who are members of

19     this unit.  It is based on that that you arrive at a conclusion as to

20     whether something constitutes a department or not.  However, not all

21     departments are the same.  These two departments, the air force and

22     anti-aircraft defence one, and the planning, development and finance one,

23     are placed directly under the commander.  They are at a higher

24     organisational level.  The remaining three, operations and teaching

25     specifically, the Chief of Staff is in charge, and the security

Page 30007

 1     department and the intelligence department under the competence of the

 2     assistant commander.  It is in such a way that they are placed as a lower

 3     level.  The difference is clear, and it stems from the difference in rank

 4     and order between these departments.

 5             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I'm concerned, I no

 6     longer need this chart, and I would like to go back to your report.  So

 7     again Exhibit 5D759; on page 17 in the B/C/S version, and in English this

 8     will be on page 22.  And I'm referring to paragraph 43.

 9        Q.   In this paragraph, you wrote that the head of administration in

10     charge of operations and training has a right of command over the

11     sections for operations, over the section in charge of training, and over

12     the operations centre.  Generally speaking, what is the function of the

13     operations centre?

14        A.   The operations centre has a twofold meaning.  One meaning denotes

15     an organisational unit, which means there are certain persons working

16     there.  The other meaning is about a place where these jobs are

17     performed.  Its principle task -- what can be considered its principle

18     task is being the principle mediator between the command links within the

19     army, and this is in relation to the basic command post.

20        Q.   Was the operation centres formed as part of the Main Staff of the

21     Army of Republika Srpska?

22        A.   There was supposed to be one, but it wasn't manned, and

23     eventually it wasn't established.  The operations centre functioned in

24     such a way that the duty operations officer and the operations centre

25     officer were one and the same, and then various corners were cut.  You

Page 30008

 1     know that the position of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska

 2     was to have maximum manning levels at the lower levels, such as brigades

 3     and regiments, and the higher levels should try to operate with as few

 4     men as possible, because there was an ongoing shortage of well-trained

 5     men to fill these posts.

 6        Q.   And the fact that there was no operations centre, did that have

 7     an impact on the way the department in charge of operations and training

 8     functioned?

 9        A.   Well, what is certain is that all the persons working in that

10     department had a lot of other things to do because of this, and all of

11     these were jobs that interfered with their normal work.  However, that

12     was the decision that was taken.  And as far as I can see, they did quite

13     well coping with the pressure.

14        Q.   Now, you mentioned the officer for operations who was on duty.

15     What were the tasks of this officer on duty?

16        A.   The operative duty officer, because I think that's what we're

17     talking about, within the system is considered the most senior duty

18     officer in an organisational unit.  His principal task was, in the

19     commander's absence, to make sure the system was operating in keeping

20     with the orders, plans, and schedules.

21        Q.   And to whom did this duty operations officer report?  Who was he

22     subordinated to?

23        A.   The operative duty officer is subordinated to the commander

24     regardless of the fact that sometimes some studies indicate that it's not

25     the commander that dismisses them or replaces them, but rather someone

Page 30009

 1     else.  Despite this fact, they are directly subordinated to the

 2     commander.

 3        Q.   Now I would like to move to another subject and show you page 28

 4     of your report, page 28 in the B/C/S version, which is page 37 -- sorry,

 5     34, 34 in English.  Now, what I'm interested in is paragraph 75 in which

 6     you wrote, amongst other things, that there was no universal type of

 7     military organisation.  Can you please explain what you meant by this?

 8        A.   I tried to be as specific as I could.  Based on my knowledge of

 9     the Army of Republika Srpska, or the VJ, or the Army of Serbia, which I

10     had been a member up until recently, if I tried to explain other military

11     forces based on that, the errors would be disastrous.  There is no

12     universal type of organisation.  Whenever you deal with an army, you need

13     to analyse it and explain it in its own right, the way it operates, even

14     if you come across two similar ways two armies are organised.  If you

15     don't study closely the organisational model of an army but, rather, if

16     you base your analysis on a different if similar model, there is always

17     the risk that you might be committing frightful errors.

18        Q.   Right.  May I now come back to page 12 in B/C/S, and I'm still

19     talking about your report, which is page 13 in English.

20             In paragraph 30, you mentioned one particular type of

21     organisation which you called the line staff type of organisation.  Can

22     you please explain what this type of organisation comprises?  And the

23     chart for the English version is on the following page, which is on

24     page 14.

25        A.   It wasn't I who gave these names.  It was file in early 19th

Page 30010

 1     century, and these are the types of organisation I'm familiar with.  The

 2     army used the line staff type of organisation.  Sometimes one uses the

 3     staff-type term, and this has its own features, the features being that

 4     among other things, any rights and responsibilities of commander in the

 5     hands of a single man, the commander.  This is also typical of other

 6     types.

 7             However, communication only occurs through the commander, meaning

 8     if the Chief of Staff of this lower command in the box wants to share

 9     something with the Chief of Staff of a superior command, he passes

10     information along through his own commander and then the commander sends

11     it along to his own superior commander, and then the superior commander

12     informs the Chief of Staff.  This is the most important difference in

13     relation to all the other types.  The hierarchy is solid, it's all linked

14     up, and everything happens through the commander.

15        Q.   And what army had this type of organisation?

16        A.   The JNA, applied in a very consistent way, and also in all the

17     armies that emerged, as it were, on the ashes of the JNA.  It wasn't

18     before the recent years that we switched over to the functional type of

19     organisation, and in the Eastern Bloc countries they also had these, the

20     former Eastern Bloc, but they did have some peculiarities.  I don't think

21     we should be going into that type of detail now.  They distinguished

22     between the line staff type and the type that they were actually using.

23        Q.   I would now like to show you page 13 in the B/C/S version,

24     corresponding to page 16 in the English.  In paragraph 33, you talk about

25     another kind of organisation called "functional" or "line functional."

Page 30011

 1     Could you give us some explanation on this kind of organisation?  The

 2     organisational chart in the B/C/S version is on the next page, page 14.

 3        A.   This is a more advanced aspect of organisation, characterized by

 4     a higher level of professionalism of the people working in this system.

 5     Regardless of the fact that all the rights, obligations, and executive

 6     duties are in the hands of the commander, he can transfer part of his

 7     rights and obligations to his assistants; and these assistants have,

 8     according to their functional rights, the competence to directly control

 9     all their services in depth.  This manner of organisation is considered

10     to be more flexible, more efficient, and conducive to speedier

11     decision-making.

12        Q.   Could you tell us which armies were organised along this line,

13     along this structure?

14        A.   I think almost all armies today, nowadays.  At that time, it was

15     mainly the NATO forces that were organised in this way.  We adopted this

16     way of organisation in the Serbian Army while I was still in charge of

17     organisation.

18        Q.   Just to make things perfectly clear, please tell us what

19     organisation existed in the Army of Republika Srpska in 1995.

20        A.   To be very precise, I could say that this line staff type of

21     organisation was used with some admixtures of the functional type of

22     organisation.

23        Q.   You made a parallel between these two organisations and the two

24     types of armies, one being on the Eastern Bloc side and the other on the

25     Western side, so could you tell us whether there was an officer in charge

Page 30012

 1     of operations in NATO armies?

 2        A.   That's the biggest problem.  An operative officer of the type has

 3     existed in the JNA and the armies that sprang from the JNA does not exist

 4     in the NATO system.  The entire system of organisation is completely

 5     different, so any comparison and any drawing of conclusions based on the

 6     other type of organisation leads to error.  People who are familiar with

 7     the army and organisation of NATO countries equate operations officers

 8     with operatives, but this is wrong, both as regards their rights and

 9     duties and qualifications and everything else.

10        Q.   Did the Army of Republika Srpska have a function that could be

11     called adviser to the commander?

12        A.   From the code book of duties in the Army of Republika Srpska,

13     which is easy to reconstruct, one can see that adviser -- adviser to the

14     commander or adviser to the chief are positions which do not exist.

15     Studying the orders on competencies, one can see that, in functional

16     terms, in the Army of Republika Srpska and in all the armies coming from

17     the former JNA, there is no advisory function and no counselling of

18     subordinates in relation to their superiors.

19        Q.   Could you explain this last part of your answer, please?  You're

20     saying that there is no advisory function and no counselling of

21     subordinates in relation to their superiors?

22        A.   The duty of adviser did not exist, full stop.  In the

23     competencies, the activity of giving advice did not exist.  This is

24     something that regularly exists in all the armed forces of the NATO

25     countries nowadays.

Page 30013

 1        Q.   When General Mladic was absent, could you tell us who, in the

 2     Army of Republika Srpska, would fill in for him and stand in for him?

 3     Now, of course, before you answer, we have to define exactly what an

 4     absence could mean because earlier you already told us about the problems

 5     associated with the word "absence."  So could you expound on this,

 6     please?

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are not receiving interpretation.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  The microphone was

10     not switched on.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you could repeat the list that you were giving

12     of various places, please, General.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

14             Let's state precisely what "absence" means, "Not to be at the

15     command post."  If somebody is not present in the Main Staff of the Army

16     of Republika Srpska, if somebody is not in Han Pijesak, he is not absent

17     from his duty.  As long as appropriate communication with him can be

18     established, and as long as he's fit to command, he is on duty.  From

19     that point of view, studying all the documents and talking to the people

20     in charge of personnel affairs, the commander of the Army of

21     Republika Srpska was always in command of the Army of Republika Srpska,

22     which means he was never absence from being able to command.

23             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Let's assume that General Mladic would not be fit for command or

25     able to command.  Who could have stood in for him?

Page 30014

 1        A.   Well, it might be easier to refer you to Rule 37 of the Rules of

 2     Service, but let me explain.

 3             If an emergency arises, a dynamic or sudden situation, a

 4     situation which could not be foreseen, then he would be replaced by the

 5     most senior officer in the Army of Republika Srpska underneath him, and

 6     that was the Chief of Staff, General Milovanovic.  If his inability to

 7     command occurred in normal conditions, the supreme commander would

 8     immediately issue a decision on someone acting for the -- or standing in

 9     for the commander until a final decision was reached.

10        Q.   We saw that General Milovanovic's function was to be chief of

11     the -- head of the Main Staff, as well as being deputy commander.  You

12     explained -- you told us when General Milovanovic actually stood in for

13     General Mladic, but we know that General Milovanovic signed a great

14     number of documents as deputy commander, so could you explain to us why

15     the deputy commander, General Milovanovic, actually signed these

16     documents in these cases?

17        A.   Studying the voluminous documentation which you put at my

18     disposal, I saw in many places that the chiefs of staff signed documents

19     as deputies of the commander.  This was also done by General Milovanovic.

20             In some documents, I saw there was Colonel Krstic at the time,

21     and I saw it on some other documents as well.  That is actually an

22     incorrect way of signing because none of them was the deputy of the

23     commander.  The duties of the Chief of Staff and deputy commander are an

24     integral whole, so if he was authorised to sign, the correct way would

25     have been to sign it "Chief of Staff and Deputy Commander

Page 30015

 1     Colonel Milovanovic."  Why they did this, I don't know, and the fact

 2     their superiors did not object, they did not feel it was a big problem.

 3             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is this the right

 4     time to adjourn?

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Thank you, Ms. Fauveau.

 6             General, we are going to stop here for today.  We'll continue

 7     tomorrow.  We are going quite slowly, if I may say so.  Anyway, between

 8     now and tomorrow, please, you're not allowed to discuss with anyone the

 9     subject matter of your testimony, and this will continue to be the case

10     until you finish with your evidence sometime next week.

11             Thank you, and adjourned to tomorrow morning at 9.00.

12                      --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

13                to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of January, 2009,

14                                   at 9.00 a.m.