1 Friday, 30 January 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Madam Registrar, could you
7 call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, I know, I saw it but if you want -- I don't
11 know how you're going to do it because I am technically minded but not to
12 this extent. And I will be with Judge Orie later on in any case, so it
13 doesn't matter. For the record -- shall I continue or not? The thing is
14 on one side it's okay, it's on the other side that it isn't.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry if I am am bothering you with this, but
17 at least what I tried did work and we have eliminated Judge Orie's
19 I would like some advice from you Madam Registrar, if we could
20 proceed? If it has worked with me it should work with others. But --
21 and I can tell you what I did. I logged off completely, logged on again,
22 I didn't switch off, I logged off only from -- I didn't actually log off,
23 I just closed the internet connection. Closed the internet connection
24 and re-opened it again. All right. Connecting then with the central
25 distributing section.
1 So, Madam Registrar, has called the case. For the record all the
2 accused are present today. Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Nikolic, yesterday, I did
3 see your client's waiver in relation to yesterday's sitting but we still
4 haven't got it from the horse's mouth that he waived his right to be
5 present for the sitting when he felt sick and was taken to the Detention
6 Unit of two days ago.
7 So Mr. Beara, it was two days ago that we were informed that you
8 were not feeling well and we sent you you back to the Detention Unit. At
9 the time we had an indication that a waiver was forthcoming, a formal
10 waiver was forthcoming for you, but we received the waiver for the day
11 after and for yesterday, we never received a proper waiver for that part
12 of the sitting. I would like you to confirm here in open court that you
13 had waived your rights to be present while we continue.
14 THE ACCUSED BEARA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Now, present today more or less it's
16 the same composition of yesterday. I just notice the absence of
17 Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Ostojic.
18 And good morning, General Pandurevic, and good morning to you,
19 Mr. Haynes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for the delay but these things happen. Let's
23 MR. HAYNES: And thank you for the technical advice. It worked
24 for me too.
25 WITNESS: VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 MR. HAYNES: And before I continue with the examination of
3 Mr. Pandurevic, there's something I want to say. This is a public court
4 which is widely broadcast and reported and it brings upon advocates an
5 extra duty of responsibility in their advocacy.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Make-up assistance or what?
7 MR. HAYNES: General Gvero is a serious and dignified man and his
8 legal team are highly professional, hard working, and I respect them very
9 much and I should not have made a joke in my opening statement at their
10 expense. And I apologise for that.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Everyone took it in its own strength. But let's
12 continue. But I appreciate that.
13 MR. JOSSE: Could I say, so do we and I am sure may client does
14 as well.
15 Examination by Mr. Haynes: [Continued]
16 Q. We left off yesterday Mr. Pandurevic, on the 11th of July, and I
17 just want to backtrack a little bit simply to address a couple of
18 documents. And the first of them is 7D761.
19 MR. HAYNES: So I would be obliged if that could be placed into
20 e-court, please.
21 Q. And this is a Drina Corps interim combat report from the 6th of
22 July, and it records the fact that the enemy offered very strong
23 resistance particularly on the Zelini Jadar-Srebrenica axis where the
24 was significantly weaker on the village - of I can't read that - they
25 fortified their defensive positions well, especially on the approaches to
2 What sort of input did you have in to the writing of a report
3 like that which was written, we see, by General Krstic?
4 A. This type of report are written based on the information received
5 in the course of combat operations. General Krstic had an opportunity to
6 personally observe the progress of the fighting, and he also received
7 reports from subordinate commanders and units participating in the
8 operation. Therefore, this is an aggregate compilation of the
9 information received from the units and on a personal basis. So this
10 report contains information about my tactical group that was involved in
11 combat operations on that day along the Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica axis.
12 MR. HAYNES: And can we now have a look, please, at 7D762.
13 Q. This is a combat report, an interim combat report from the 9th of
14 July. Have you had an opportunity to read it through? And what events
15 does this record and reflect?
16 A. This is a report relating to the 9th of July, 1995. It provides
17 small details about the situation and it covers a larger number of
18 features where combat operations were carried out. It includes the
19 features captured by the combat group of Birac Brigade and other brigades
20 as well as some important features captured by my contact tactical group.
21 We can also see that there is a decision taken by the commander of the
22 operation relating to further operations. I cannot see from this
23 document at what time this report was drafted and sent out.
24 MR. HAYNES: Well, it's not material for my purposes. I'd prefer
25 to go on, please, to 7D474, the interim combat report from the 10th of
2 Q. And we see in the first paragraph, it says at 0430:
3 "The enemy carried out a powerful counter-attack along the
4 Srebrenica-Bojna-Zeleni Jadar village axis. They took control of the
5 Zivko Brdo feature. Throughout the day the enemy put up fierce
6 resistance to our forces using all weapons at their disposal. Our forces
7 halted the enemy counter- attack and at about 1300 hours regained control
8 of the Zivkovo Brdo --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
10 MR. HAYNES: I'm sorry. I thought I was going slowly enough.
11 Q. "By 2000 hours they reached the
12 Divljakinje-Banja-Crni-Guber-Bojna, a big bend at the entrance to
13 Srebrenica. Elevation 372, Vagan, Alibegovac-Selo-Bucje line, paving the
14 way to entering Srebrenica. Our losses: Six soldiers killed and 10
16 Does that accurately record the events in combat on the 10th of
17 July of 1995?
18 A. This report, particularly item 2, reflects the situation on the
19 grounds, as I described yesterday. The number of the wounded and the
20 killed refers mainly to members of the tactical group 1.
21 Q. Thank you. We'll come back now to where we left off yesterday.
22 After you had met with General Krstic in the morning, what did
23 you do?
24 A. On the morning of the 11th near the repeater on the Bojna
25 feature, I received an order from General Krstic to proceed with my units
1 with further actions to try to take control of the town and the
2 surrounding features which were important for taking and maintaining
3 control of the town.
4 Q. Were they important features to the south of the town or, as it
5 were, around the town?
6 A. It is common knowledge that Srebrenica is a town which a
7 completely surrounded by what soldiers call strong topographic features
8 which are convenient for defence. At one point, I thought that the 28th
9 Division was putting up weak resistance on the afternoon of the 10th and
10 the morning of the 11th. Therefore, their aim was to try and pull in our
11 forces into the ground and -- into the town, and then launch an attack on
12 our forces from the surrounding features. For that purpose, I deemed
13 these features to be very important to our control before entering the
14 town itself.
15 Q. Where were those features?
16 A. These features were around the town itself, literally above the
17 streets you have slopes and on my axis of attack, there was a feature
18 north-east towards Banja-Crni-Guber, and on the left-hand side west of
19 the town was a smaller feature covered with pinewood. And more to the
20 west, the general area was to be covered by the 2nd Romanija and 1st
21 Birac Brigades.
22 Q. And did you take those features and if so by what time?
23 A. Yes, we did. East of the town combat group 2 and the company's
24 from the battalion took control of the features closest to the town, and
25 elements of the Podrinje detachment went into the town and some elements
1 took control of a feature which was west of town literally above the
3 Q. And what time the day did that all occur?
4 A. It all occurred, as far as I can remember, after 1500 hours.
5 Let's say 1600 hours or possibly 1700 hours.
6 Q. And where were you yourself while this was going on?
7 A. I was moving along the main road leading directly to the town of
9 Q. Who were you with?
10 A. My driver, my signalman, and my escort were with me, and also
11 Dragutinovic, the operations officer.
12 Q. Did you get into the town?
13 A. Yes, we did.
14 Q. At what time?
15 A. I already said. I cannot be exactly sure about the time, but it
16 was definitely in the afternoon, after 1500 hours.
17 Q. Well, I want to refresh your memory by showing you a section of
18 the trial video. It's P2047. CD 6. And the section I want you to look
19 at is about 3 minutes long. It's between 2800 hours and 3112. I'm
20 sorry, 28 minutes and 31 minutes and 12 seconds.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Go forward, you can salute me when
23 we get to Bratunac from here. Look in that shelter down there. Search
24 it quickly. Trivic, is that you?
25 "It's my General, sir, and I thought it was some fucking --
1 "Let's exchange.
2 "Well done.
3 "Two years ago you we took the flat to Trnovo, two years ago
4 today at this time, two years ago on July 11th, congratulations.
5 "Congratulations, General this is free. And we finally meet,
6 hello commander.
7 Major Ljubo, sir, Mr. President. And you must be Ljubo, Ljubo
8 Markan. Four times so far. Good. Excellent. Let's go boys, Trivic,
9 Trivic don't, forget history, please. Move forward so we can get to
10 Bratunac, come on forget history. Move on.
11 "I've been ordered to occupy this position General, sir.
12 "Move on to Bratunac please, the centre should go forward. Leave
13 the centre be. Move forward with your men. Tell them I'm here. I want
14 them to advance to Bratunac. Let's go. Move chief, so I don't have to
15 bother with you. Go, go, go.
16 "This one is for the command. The ammunition is on the truck.
17 Where is the truck? It's right here here. Whose ammunition is it? It's
18 for Legenda. Requisition it. Run the truck and go forward. Go, go
19 forward, come on move.
20 "What is this?
21 "Commander, sir, it's all right. It's all right.
24 "Payments for services in German marks only. Change only. There
25 is a man up there peering out from the second floor.
1 "Run. Take advantage of the panic among the Turks. What are
2 these troops doing here? What are you doing here? I hope to God we do
3 this soon in down-town Gorazde. God willing, come on. Up there, up
4 there on the top. Faster, faster, get in.
5 "What? Are they waiting for you? Come on, quickly, take it and
6 move on towards Bratunac. Right away. There is shooting up there. Here
7 we are on July 11th, 1995
8 great Serb holiday, we give this town to the Serbian people as a gift.
9 Finally, after the rebellion against the Dahis, the time has come to take
10 revenge on the Turks in this region.
11 Those hills and the part of the Hoda [phoen]. We are going
12 straight to Bratunac men, straight to Potocari.
13 "First we have to take the hills, General.
14 "Do whatever you have to do. You shouldn't get out.
15 "If you please, is this where, this is the main high-rise
16 buildings that are there.
17 "Yes, they are 300 to 400 metres.
18 "Congratulations, chief. Good luck. Straight to Bratunac, go on
19 guys. Troops go straight to Bratunac."
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have the coordinates of this recording, where
21 it started.
22 MR. HAYNES: It started at 28 minutes and it ended at 31.21, I
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
25 MR. HAYNES:
1 Q. Firstly, to your recollection about what time of the day was all
2 that glad handing and kissing going on?
3 A. This was going on after I entered the town with my troops. And
4 east and west of the town on the elevated points. I suppose that this
5 could have been around 1600 hours.
6 Q. Did you kiss General Mladic?
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. What was your mood at the time we saw you in that video?
9 A. I was not in a good mood. There was no special reason for me to
10 be in a particular good mood for various reasons. First of all, on the
11 previous day we were engaged in heavy fighting. We were forced to retake
12 what we had already occupied once in fighting and for a soldier, that is
13 the most difficult task of all. Second of all, I'd suffered losses in my
14 unit. Five or six fallen soldiers and some dozen wounded, several were
15 still counted as missing. I knew that the complete 28th Division was in
16 that area. However, we had lost contact with it and that's the worst
17 thing in fighting, when you lose contact with the retreating enemy. And
18 actually, you have to start chasing the enemy on its back. And that's
19 how we created another new problem, which is that the 28th Division had
20 disappeared from the area and we had lost contact with it.
21 Second of all, I saw those men that turned up on the streets of
22 the town whose axes of attack were not the town at all. Their units had
23 remained to the east or to the west, and they had descended into town to
24 meet with Mladic. And as I saw it in Mr. Trivic's journal who noted that
25 he was not able to sell his success, under inverted commas, but obviously
1 this was an attempt to do something of this sort in Srebrenica.
2 On the 11th in the morning, I also saw the members of the 10th
3 sabotage unit who had turned up at the moment when the 28th Division no
4 longer presented danger because their resistance had been broken, and I
5 really didn't understand why these troops would appear in the area, for
6 what reason.
7 And finally, I'd say last but not least, I was tired. I was
9 Q. What did you think people should be focusing their attention on
10 at that point in time?
11 A. Our main task was to fight and engage with the 28th Division.
12 That should have been our main objective, our main concern, our main
14 Q. Now, we saw a number of people on that video. Obviously
15 Mr. Trivic has been here and identified himself. There was another man
16 referred to by his first name which was Ljubo. Who was that?
17 A. Ljubo Eric, major. He was in command of the 2nd combat group
18 from the Romanija motorised brigade, or rather 2nd Romanija Mechanised
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
21 MR. HAYNES:
22 Q. Mr. Trivic, did he have any command function in relation to
23 Krivaja 95?
24 A. Colonel Trivic was the part of the 2nd Romania Mechanised
25 Brigade. As far as I can remember he was present during the commander's
1 reconnaissance on the 1st of July, and he took a combat group a --
2 tantamount to a reinforced company. They were supposed to participate in
3 Krivaja 95 operation. He appointed a commander of that combat group,
4 Major Ljubo Eric, and he established a command. As far as I understand
5 his role, he was supposed to assist Ljubo Eric in certain situations.
6 However, up until the 11th of July until the moment he met up with Mladic
7 and until the moment Mladic issued Colonel Andric, the commander of the
8 Birac Brigade, Trivic, and other brigade commanders to be personally
9 engaged in combat, he didn't do anything.
10 So as from that moment on, he had somewhat broader autonomy. He
11 could stay in the territory, but he could also leave it which means that
12 his position and my position were not absolutely identical. It would
13 have been too much for a brigade commander to be put in command of a
15 Q. You've mentioned Colonel Andric. Did we see him on the video?
16 A. Yes, I saw him on the video. I did not see him during combat. I
17 did not hear him on the radio. The combat group from his brigade was
18 commanded by Major Nemanja Pavlovic. According to Andric's statements he
19 appeared on the area on the 9th or in the 10th, he came to inspect the
20 unit, and then he remained in the area.
21 Q. Was there anybody else we saw in that section of the video, who
22 in your recollection, had nothing to do with the combat operation?
23 A. Yes, I saw Lieutenant-Colonel Radomir Furtula, the commander of
24 the 5th Podrinje Brigade. In Krivaja 95 operation, he did not have any
25 of his forces. He was not engaged. Why he turned up there, where from,
1 I'm not clear to this very day.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, what was it that you were suggesting to General
3 Mladic should be done in the short section of video where we saw you?
4 A. I had noticed that group of officers, Mladic, Krstic, Zivanovic,
5 and others that have been mentioned. I saw them moving through
6 Srebrenica in a rather theatrical way, without being aware of the
7 situation ahead of them. And I believed judging by the measures of
8 combat security that we were supposed to use our own forces to secure the
9 area first, and then let the commanders proceed in advance.
10 Q. What did you do after you spoke to General Mladic?
11 A. He told me do as you please. I acted upon my own will. I
12 deployed my troops in keeping with the tactical situation, I took smaller
13 forces and I continued moving through the town towards the centre, and I
14 went all the way to the football pitch in Gostilj village.
15 Q. Did you see any inhabitants in the town?
16 A. No. I did not see any inhabitants in the town. Only in the
17 UNPROFOR base, whether they called that bravo company. In the former
18 textile factory, I saw several elderly people and that was it.
19 Q. And where did you go after you had been in Srebrenica?
20 A. While I was still in Srebrenica, I inspected my troops. I issued
21 tasks for them, I looked at the police station as the place for my
22 command, and then I was called by General Krstic to attend a meeting in
24 Q. What time did you leave the town?
25 A. It was summer and night falls somewhat later in the day and it
1 was already dark. Not complete dark, so I believe that it may have been
2 between 2130 and 2145 hours, around that period of time.
3 Q. And did you leave on foot or in a car?
4 A. I took my car there.
5 Q. Who did you leave with?
6 A. My driver, my signalsman, and my escort.
7 Q. And which route did you take?
8 A. Srebrenica-Potocari-Bratunac was the route.
9 Q. When you passed through Potocari, what did you see?
10 A. I would rather call it trying to break through to the masses. At
11 one moment, I regretted having opted for that route because there were
12 huge numbers of people on the road and around it, and it was difficult to
13 go through. However, since I'd already chosen that route, I didn't have
14 a choice. I proceeded. I managed to break through the masses and
15 finally I arrived in Bratunac.
16 Q. At about what time?
17 A. It may have been around 2200 hours.
18 Q. And when you got there, where did you go?
19 A. I went to the command of the Bratunac Brigade, because that was
20 the venue of the meeting to which I'd been called.
21 Q. Where there other people there when you got there?
22 A. There were people, yes. There were officers. I don't know
23 whether I arrived before other commanders or they arrived before me, I'm
24 not sure. I only know that there was quite a number of officers
25 attending that meeting.
1 Q. Where was the meeting held?
2 A. The meeting was held in a room in the command of the Bratunac
3 Brigade. I don't know whether that was their ops room or a meeting room,
4 I'm not sure. Because this would have been my second or third visit of
5 that command, so I was really not very familiar with the layout of the
6 building or where the rooms were in it.
7 Q. And how long after you arrived did the meeting commence?
8 A. The meeting started soon thereafter, as soon as I arrived we took
9 our seats in that room and the meeting started.
10 Q. About how many people were present?
11 A. I remember very well that General Krstic was there. And I
12 believe that at the very beginning of the meeting, General Mladic was not
13 there, he joined us later. There were also the commanders of the
14 brigades that had been in the area the previous day, and I'm not sure
15 whether there was anybody else from the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
16 I would say that there were about ten or so people present.
17 Q. How long did the meeting last?
18 A. A meeting of that sort was more of a monologue by one man and
19 issuing task. It was not really a meeting that would deal with an
20 analysis or an exchange of opinions. It did not last long. After the
21 meeting we moved to an adjacent room where dinner had been prepared for
23 Q. Who conducted the monologue?
24 A. As soon as he turned up for the meeting, General Mladic took the
25 floor. He reviewed the events of the previous day. He issued an order
1 for the units to be ready to proceed towards Zepa. He also said that we
2 should make the most of that chaotic situation in the 28th Division and
3 defeat them as a result of that.
4 Q. In the transcript it appears that you said, "he reviewed the
5 events of the previous day." Is that what he did?
6 A. No, not of the previous day, but rather that same day.
7 Q. Did anybody else speak other than General Mladic?
8 A. My proposal to General Mladic was to establish contact with the
9 28th Division as soon as possible, that we should learn where they were
10 and what their intentions were, and that we should assign forces that
11 would be engaged in a combat with that division. And that the rest of
12 the forces should remain in Srebrenica and Bratunac in order to stabilize
13 the situation on the ground.
14 Q. Did anybody else speak?
15 A. No, as far as I can remember, nobody did.
16 Q. And what response did you get to your suggestions?
17 A. The response was you heard the order, you heard what the tasks
18 are, prepare units and proceed towards Zepa ASAP.
19 Q. Did everybody who had attended the meeting go to the adjacent
20 room for a meal that you've told us about?
21 A. I don't know exactly who went for the meal. I know that I did.
22 There were other men there, that did not last long, and immediately after
23 that I returned to the police station in Srebrenica.
24 Q. What was the meal?
25 A. The meal had been prepared by Zvanko Bajagic who was a member of
1 the office of the Drina Corps, of the staff office there. And he had
2 been known to prepare food for the corps command on similar occasions.
3 He had brought fish, I think it was carp. I'm not a big aficionado of
4 fish, but I did eat. And that was the last day of a fast, according to
5 the orthodox calendar. It was St. Peter's day and it was the end of
6 fasting and fish had to be served, it's a staple food during the time of
8 Q. Which route did you take back to Srebrenica?
9 A. I didn't take the same route if view of the situation that I had
10 encountered on arrival. People from the Bratunac Brigade told me about
11 another route leading via Sas, along the Sas lake, and a feature called
12 Gradac, then you take a detour, a macadam road straight to Srebrenica,
13 and this is the route that I took.
14 MR. HAYNES: I just want to consider with you one document. It's
16 Q. This is, I suppose, a report of a prisoner who had been captured
17 on the 12th of July and interviewed. And if we look at the second
18 paragraph it says:
19 "Despite his limited intellectual capacity, he gave the
20 following information during the interview on the situation in the
21 Suceska area. He said that all military-aged men in the Suceska area
22 have been organised and have set off under the command of Zulfo
23 Tursunovic to cross the territory of Republika Srpska illegally to
24 Kladanj and Tuzla
25 Given what you've told us you've said during the meeting in
1 Bratunac that evening, was any information of that sort available to calm
2 your fears?
3 A. On the 11th in the evening on that meeting, I could not receive
4 detailed information about the location and the intentions of the 28th
5 Division from anybody. Our assessments were based on the information
6 that we obtained in the course of the day after the bombardment of our
7 positions and the surveillance of the radio connections of the 28th
8 Division. This is intelligence that was received from
9 Mr. Beklesh [phoen] from Udinem [phoen] who had been taken prisoner of
10 war. And this was taken on the 12th, which means that as of that day,
11 our information about the intentions and the location of the 28th
12 Division became much more precise.
13 Q. Was anything said at that meeting that you attended about anybody
14 knowing where the 28th Division were going?
15 A. No, nothing was said. Nobody provided us with any exact
16 information about the whereabouts of the 28th Division. However,
17 starting from the military logic, and we know that the officers of the
18 28th Division shared the same logic and abided by the same rules as we
19 did in the VRS, and the rule was that a unit when encircled tries to
20 break through in the direction of their closest unit and that that
21 breakthrough should be carried out in several directions. That's why I
22 assume that as elements of the 28th Division, most of them will try to
23 breakthrough towards Kladanj, less towards Kalesija and Tuzla
24 one part of the elements will try to break through towards Zepa. That
25 was how I assessed the situation.
1 Q. Just one more question on that topic and then I'll move to
2 something that you just hinted at.
3 Was there any information at the meeting you attended to suggest
4 any prisoners by then had been taken?
5 A. No, I didn't have any such information.
6 Q. Now, you've hinted at the answer to the next question, which is
7 knowing the terrain as you did, where did you think it was most likely
8 the forces of the 28th Division would go?
9 A. I thought that the Srebrenica-Kladanj would be the shortest
10 route. I knew that they used to use it before for providing supplies and
11 moving units, and therefore, I assumed that the bulk of their forces
12 might take this route again.
13 Q. And which territory of Republika Srpska would that take them
15 A. They would pass practically through the zone of operations of the
17 through the area in the zone of the Drina Corps, and the area where a
18 large number of Serbian settlements were.
19 Q. You've told us that you spent the night at the police station in
20 Srebrenica. Where were your units on the night of the 11th of July?
21 A. The units remained in the positions I mentioned earlier, and that
22 is on the northern edge of the town, i.e., the village of Gostiljca
23 interpreted] and the football pitch and on these mild slopes above the
24 town itself.
25 Q. And was that all of them, all three battle groups, or combat
1 groups, so as I don't offends Mr. Bourgon?
2 A. Everybody who was under my command as member of the tactical
3 group were in the area.
4 Q. Sorry, I'm just invited to correct another transcription of your
6 The evening of the meeting, was that St. Peter's day, or was
7 St. Peter's day the following day?
8 A. St. Peter's day is on the 12th of July, so that would have been
9 the next day.
10 Q. So let's come to the next day. What did you do on the morning of
11 the 12th of July?
12 A. On the morning of the 12th of July, I again inspected my
13 positions. I spent most of the time in the village of Gostilj
14 elements of the Podrinje detachment and their commander, aka Legenda.
15 Q. I want to leave you there for a moment, and show you a few
17 MR. HAYNES: And I want to look at the Zvornik Brigade duty
18 officer's notebook for the 12th of July. So that's P377. And we need to
19 see page 114 both languages, please. And we are going to need to see the
20 very bottom of the page. It's the last entry.
21 Q. On my screen it's quite hard to read, Mr. Pandurevic. Can you
22 read the handwritten document in Serbian? I'll read it to you slowly in
23 English. The passage I'm interested in. It says:
24 "Radika requested assistance in manpower to stop the Turks.
25 We are sending Praga. Bring it from Brezanci, Mane, SUP to his men on
1 the ground. Give him Radika's phone number."
2 Do you know who Radika is or was?
3 A. Captain 1st Class Radika Petrovic was a commander of a battalion.
4 It says here the 8th Infantry Battalion. That was how it was designated
5 while it was part of the Zvornik Brigade but at the time it was the 4th
6 Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.
7 Q. And what about Mane, do you know who that is or was?
8 A. I believe this is Mane Djuric, deputy chief of the public
9 security centre in Zvornik.
10 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Can we now have a look at P1103. It's D
11 in the English.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: The document is under seal.
13 MR. HAYNES: I'm very sorry. I should have known that. Can we
14 then not -- we'll, actually we're going to have to go into private
15 session because I'm going to have to ask some questions on the document.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's easier. Let's go into private session for a
17 short while, Mr. Haynes.
18 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, everybody, very much.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Pandurevic, you know what this document is.
20 It's a transcript of an intercepted communication, and it begins:
21 "Hello, General, I've spoken with Mane."
22 It's recorded at being at 7.55 in the morning.
23 "Good. One of our companies is up there with a bulldozer man
24 there in Konjevic Polje. He has the task of doing whatever it does. So
25 you may order through the commander what he is to do, and for your
1 information, he has reserves. It's not necessary.
2 "... that's it, I'm also sending this Praga, and I'm working on
3 this with my police in the depth in the territory. They've probably
4 informed you a large column of Turkish groups in pouring into Rainci.
5 "In Rainci.
6 "In Rainci, yes, that's across from Bule.
7 "We are taking action in that area. We are both in touch with
8 the situation. All right. Okay. I don't know if there's any artillery
9 ammunition. I forwarded a request yesterday. I sent a lot up there, to
10 my boss."
11 Now, what army unit would you expect to be responsible for a
13 A. There's mention here, a bulldozer unit in Konjevic Polje. I know
14 that at the time there was the 5th Engineers Battalion of the Drina Corps
15 in Konjevic Polje, and this is probably refers this unit.
16 Q. And while you were engaged with tactical group 1 in Zeleni Jadar,
17 did you ever ask the brigade command in Zvornik to send you any
19 A. I recall that on the 5th of July when I arrived on the --
20 Pribicevac to inspect the tank company which had arrived there a day
21 earlier, I inspected their combat readiness level and the level of
22 preparedness and to my surprise they didn't have the entire ammunition
23 kit for their tanks. For that reason through the forward command post of
24 the corps, I established communication with Zvornik and requested
25 ammunition to be sent.
1 Q. You've answered this question earlier, but in terms of
2 geographical proximity, Brezanci and Konjevic Polje, how close are they
4 A. As far as I can remember, I'm not very familiar with that
5 terrain, Brezanci are somewhere between Bratunac and Milici. It was in
6 the area of responsibility of the battalion commanded by Radika Petrovic.
7 Q. Now, let's leave that document and that conversation to one side
8 for a moment.
9 Can you explain how the telephones in the commander's office, the
10 Chief of Staff's office, and the duty officer's office were connected in
11 the command of the Zvornik Brigade?
12 A. I had in my office a so-called battery of telephones. The chief
13 of communications Milicija Petrovic had installed that. That was
14 actually one phone with three indicators on top, or rather three buttons
15 and three red lights. This telephone was connected to a PTT number and
16 also a military number that could have been reached through the exchange.
17 An identical telephone was with the Chief of Staff, with his own numbers,
18 and another telephone was with the operations duty officer who was able
19 to answer both from the office of the commander, and the office of the
20 Chief of Staff.
21 For example, if someone calls me, my telephone would ring, the
22 operations duty officer sees the lamp flashing on the same set, and if
23 after a certain period of time this lamp doesn't stop blinking, which
24 means that I hadn't answered the phone, then the operations duty officer
25 answers the call.
1 The same happens if anybody wants to speak to the Chief of Staff
2 while he is not in the office.
3 Q. And would the incoming caller know that the call was being taken
4 by someone other than the person he had asked the switchboard to put him
5 through to?
6 A. The caller would know who he was calling and he would expect that
7 person to answer. However, as I described, it might happen that somebody
8 else answers the phone, not the person that he initially originally
9 called, that the phone is answered by the duty operations officer
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. HAYNES: Now can we go to another document under seal.
13 P1102. And before it is put on to the screen, I don't believe there are
14 any initials on this document which would offend the public gallery
15 seeing it. It's B in the B/C/S. A in the English. In the B/C/S it's
16 the passage at the bottom of the screen.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: As has been rightly pointed out to me, the document
18 is under seal and it cannot be broadcasted anyway.
19 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, yes. I thought we'd adopt the same
20 practice as last time.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not necessary.
22 MR. HAYNES: Okay. Thanks.
23 Q. Now, in the English it says "Obrenovic." What does it say in the
24 B/C/S, Mr. Pandurevic?
25 A. In Serbian it says "Obrenovicu," which indicates that the caller
1 is addressing the person by the name of Obrenovic. That's a case, a
2 grammatical case.
3 Q. And then there's obviously a period where something could not be
4 heard or transcribed, and then the caller says:
5 "Where is your commander?
6 "As far as I know he is here.
7 "He's not, he isn't answering. Listen, please tell him that I
8 called, that Mane, Laco's deputy, will call him, that the police in
9 Konjevic Polje have been told to do the same as the Engineering Battalion
10 are doing, and that he can give orders to them through the commander of
11 the Engineering Battalion. Okay. That's it. Take care."
12 Is it possible to work out what's going on in this short
13 conversation, Mr. Pandurevic?
14 A. This is how I understand this conversation: The caller dialled
15 Dragan Obrenovic's number, and when somebody else answered at the other
16 end, he addressed this person by saying Obrenovicu. We don't have a
17 record of what this person responded, but most probably this person was
18 not the Obrenovic that he was looking for. And, therefore, the caller is
19 asking where is your commander, and so on and so forth. Then they went
20 on to discuss things and that is between the caller and the person who is
21 not Obrenovic actually.
22 Q. And who might have picked up a telephone call that was intended
23 for the Chief of Staff, if he wasn't answering?
24 A. As I described, it might have been the duty operations officer.
25 And we seen a note in the log-book of the duty operations officer which
1 is similar to something that we see here.
2 Q. Who was in command of the Zvornik Brigade on the morning of the
3 12th of July?
4 A. Dragan Obrenovic.
5 Q. Is there one word of truth in the suggestion that you were in the
6 command of the Zvornik Brigade on the morning of the 12th of July?
7 A. No, there isn't.
8 Q. Is there one word of truth in the suggestion that you spoke to
9 Dragan Obrenovic on the morning of the 12th of July in the command of the
10 Zvornik Brigade?
11 A. No, there isn't either.
12 Q. Where were you at about 5 to 8.00 in the morning on the 12th of
13 July of 1995?
14 A. As I said, I was in Srebrenica, or rather, the village of
15 Gostilj, inspecting the positions of my units.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, I let you proceed beyond the --
17 MR. HAYNES: That is absolutely the right moment to take a break.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I think it was not proper to stop you.
19 MR. HAYNES: No, I thank you very much for that.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. 25 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
24 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Now, did you go anywhere in the later morning of the morning of
1 the 12th of July of 1995?
2 A. On the morning of the 12th of July, I when to the sector of the
3 Bojna repeater where I was met by Colonel Vicic and General Krstic. I
4 also believe that other brigade commanders were there as well. This is
5 where we received full instructions for further operations for the day.
6 Q. The Bojna repeater, is that the same radio installation you were
7 talking about yesterday?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And was the meeting by arrangement?
10 A. I had been called to report there, and I did that at the request
11 of the Chief of Staff of the corps, which is General Krstic, so it must
12 have been arranged.
13 Q. Called that morning or previously?
14 A. Just before the meeting itself.
15 Q. Right. Do you remember precisely who was there, or can you give
16 us a rough estimate as to the number of people?
17 A. There were Colonel Andric, Colonel Trivic, I was there, Colonel
18 Vicic, General Krstic, I'm not sure about Colonel Blagojevic, whether he
19 was there or not, I don't think he was. And I can't remember anyone
21 Q. And what tasks were you given at that meeting?
22 A. I would like to make a distinction between the term "meeting" and
23 what took place at that time. What happened on that morning was not
24 actually a meeting. This was just the issuing of task, and it can take
25 place anywhere and at any time, so we were just standing there and
1 received the tasks, and the task was for the units to head towards
2 Srebrenica-Viogor-Suceska and to scour the ground along that axis and
3 then gradually move on via Milici and Vlasenici towards Zepa.
4 Q. What you just said was translated at scour the ground, what in
5 practical terms were you told to do?
6 A. Since we still didn't know any details about the whereabouts of
7 the 28th Division, we supposed that on the Srebrenica-Viogor-Suceska
8 axis, it would be possible to trace elements of the 28th Division. And
9 for that purpose, it was necessary to search the terrain and that area.
10 My specific task was to move as a reserve along the road, whereas these
11 two combat groups from the 2nd Romanija Brigade and the 1st Birac Brigade
12 would search the ground on the left and right sides of the road.
13 Q. In which directions was it believed that the 28th Division might
14 be heading?
15 A. At that point on the morning of the 12th, I only had an estimate
16 about what route they -- the 28th Division might have taken, and I
17 already said that. At that time, I didn't have any other fresh
19 Q. Forgive me, Mr. Pandurevic, but it was a rather subtly different
20 question. It wasn't your belief, it was what others might have believed
21 as to the directions they were heading?
22 A. General Krstic most probably believed that elements of the 28th
23 Division might be found on the route that I mentioned. That's why he
24 ordered us to proceed along that route, scour the ground there, and he
25 also believed that most of the division had already been en route either
1 towards Kladanj or Tuzla
2 Q. And was this a task given just to you and your units or to
3 everybody who was assembled at -- at the repeater, at Bojna?
4 A. Those of us who received our tasks by Bojna were supposed to take
5 the following route. Srebrenica-Viogor-Suceska,
6 Derventa-Milici-Vlasenici, and then we were supposed to continue moving
7 towards Zepa.
8 Q. And how long did the meeting last and where did you go after it
9 was over?
10 A. It was a very brief meeting. We had already had our general task
11 that we received in the evening on the 11th. According to that task, we
12 were supposed to move in the direction of Zepa. This was just providing
13 us with the details in terms of the control of the ground en route of our
14 march. In the afternoon hours we started leaving the area of Srebrenica.
15 That was on the 12th of July.
16 Q. And how did you leave?
17 A. The units set out on foot. The units of the DG gradually
18 assembled in the territory of Srebrenica
19 along the route. Before that I went to Zeleni Jadar where I found the
20 logistics elements of the tactical group, I visited some wounded
21 soldiers, and Major Dragutinovic, I took Major Dragutinovic with me and I
22 joined the unit en route towards Viogor.
23 Q. Was there any problem with Major Dragutinovic on the 12th of
25 A. On the 11th of July during a NATO bombardment, he was the closest
1 to the impact wave and he suffered some consequences. That's why he had
2 to be evacuated and kept at the outpatient's clinic of the tactical group
3 that was stationed in Zeleni Jadar.
4 Q. And where did the unit move to during the 12th of July?
5 A. In the course of the 12th of July, the unit reached the area of
6 Viogor and Mount Jahorina
7 road, we organised a room in a tent. Night fell soon thereafter and
8 that's where we spent that night.
9 Q. Were your units engaged in scouring the ground as it's being
11 A. No, my units were not engaged in that. We were kept in reserve
12 and we were moving exclusively along the road.
13 Q. Whose units were doing that?
14 A. The units of the 2nd Romanija Brigade and the 1st Birac Brigade.
15 Q. And why were they doing that rather than your units?
16 A. The operations commander, General Krstic, believed that in the
17 previous combat operations DG was exposed to most pressure and was
18 exhausted as a result of that. That's why he decided that the
19 aforementioned forces should be put in front and that I, on the other
20 hand, with my units, should be placed in reserve.
21 Q. And what time did you stop marching on the 12th of July?
22 A. When we reached Viogor, i.e., Mount Jahorina.
23 Q. I don't know if something got lost there, but I asked you what
24 time you stopped marching on the 12th of July?
25 A. That was sometime after 1700 hours.
1 Q. Now, you've told us about a meeting that occurred in the morning
2 of the 12th of July, was that the only time you saw General Krstic that
4 A. No, in the course of that afternoon on the 12th, once we arrived
5 in the area of Viogor. As far as I can remember around 1800 hours,
6 General Krstic also arrived there and that's when I saw him again and I
7 actually met with him again there.
8 Q. And did he have any particular purpose to come to see you, or was
9 it just by chance you saw him?
10 A. Well, he behaved as any other commander would have done under
11 such circumstances. He wanted to see how far his units had reached,
12 whether we had collected any information about the elements of the 28th
13 Division that were lagging behind. He wanted to inspect our situation,
14 and he wanted to see whether we were prepared to keep on moving the
15 following day.
16 Q. And did you talk to him?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Did you talk to him about the whereabouts of the 28th Division?
19 A. I conveyed to him the information that we had received during our
20 march. The information was to the effect that we had encountered some
21 parts of the equipment, a cannon, B1, 76 millimetres, and some other
22 parts of military equipment. However, we did not see any units. We did
23 not see any troops. That's what I told him.
24 And again I expressed my concern about the main body of the 28th
25 Division. I asked him whether he had any precise or more precise
1 information about the intentions of the 28th Division and about its
3 Q. And what did he say?
4 A. He said that the intentions and the whereabouts of the 28th
5 Division were known, that the intelligence was received, that the
6 division was moving in the direction of the Zvornik region en route to
8 the Drina Corps, the Milic and the Bratunac Brigades, parts of the 65th
9 Protection Motorised Regiment, and that the control of the ground and
10 roads are as carried out by the special police units of the security
11 centre in Zvornik.
12 I was also told that my concern was without any foundation.
13 Q. Did you express any views?
14 A. I didn't say anything. I said if that was the case, then there's
15 no reason for me to keep on worrying about that, if what General Krstic
16 said was the case.
17 Q. Did you discuss the situation of the civilians you'd seen at
19 A. In view of the fact that I had passed through Potocari on the
20 11th, and I'd seen that a large mass of civilians that were gathered in
21 that area, and on the 11th in the evening at the meeting I was still
22 seized with the thought that that situation had to be resolved in one way
23 or another. I did ask about the situation and what was going on with all
24 those people. Krstic told me that they had expressed a desire to be
25 evacuated in the direction of Tuzla
1 actually underway.
2 Q. Can we just go back to something that you said earlier.
3 The police units that were part of the operation that General
4 Krstic described to you, where were they from and what were they.
5 A. General Krstic did not mention the name of any MUP units. He
6 just spoke in general terms and said that special police [as interpreted]
7 units were also there and that they came from the security services
8 centre in Zvornik. And this was a notorious fact. To be more precise,
9 those units were under the command of the Colonel Vasic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please don't overlap. Can you repeat,
11 Mr. Lazarevic, please.
12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, it's just a matter of translation.
13 Mr. Pandurevic was referring to PJP, and so far this was translated as
14 PJP. And here we have in transcript special police. So this does make a
15 difference in our submission.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, yes, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we agree with that. That's the same issue
18 you will recall a long while back.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And do you agree with that as well,
20 Mr. Haynes?
21 MR. HAYNES: I was just trying to help. A note had been passed
22 to me, was just trying to clarify if for Borovcanin's lawyers and I
23 failed. But it's been cleared up by others.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So then we can proceed. Thank
25 you both -- or the three of you.
1 MR. HAYNES: Forgive me, I've for gotten where we've got to.
2 Q. Yeah. Were you given any further orders or tasks by General
3 Krstic on the evening of the 12th of July?
4 A. General Krstic ordered me to spend the night there and that the
5 following morning on the 13th, I continued marching en route
6 Viogor-Suceska-Derventa-Milici-Vlasenici-Han Pijesak-Rijeka village. He
7 also told me up there I would receive more concrete tasks for combat
8 operations with regard Zepa.
9 Q. I don't know if you still have your little car antenna, but if
10 you could just point, please, to the march that you undertook on the day
11 of the 12th from Srebrenica to Viogor? You are pointing now to Viogor,
12 are you?
13 A. If you can see where it says TG1 and flag 1, this is the area
14 where we spent the night on the 12th of July. And, therefrom, this is
15 the route that we took. This is depicted by arrows across
16 Suceska-Derventa-Milici, from Milici across Vlasenica to Han Pijesak and
17 from Han Pijesak we arrived in the village of Rijeka
18 that I'm pointing to now marked again by a flag bearing number 1.
19 Q. Thank you. Now can we move to the morning of the 13th of July.
20 What time did you move off on the morning of the 13th of July?
21 A. Unfortunately, I can't give you the exact time. However, as soon
22 as the units were ready, and as soon as the marching column was formed,
23 we started marching.
24 Q. Did you receive any visit on the morning of the 13th of July?
25 A. As far as I can remember, on the 13th of July in the morning in
1 the same place where General Krstic arrived on the 12th, General Krstic
2 came again to the same place accompanied by General Mladic.
3 Q. Were you expecting them?
4 A. No, I did not expect to see them again.
5 Q. What was the purpose of their visit?
6 A. According to General Mladic, when he asked where -- about the
7 whereabouts of units from the 1st Romanija -- 2nd Romanija and 1st
8 Bircani Brigades, he wanted to talk to the soldiers, to motivate them, to
9 prep them, and inspire them to proceed with combat activities. Later on
10 I learned that Colonel Trivic had requested something of the sort from
12 Q. What happened after General Krstic and General Mladic got there?
13 A. Since my unit was gathered there, which means that we were not
14 otherwise engaged, General Mladic addressed the soldiers briefly using
15 staple military phrases, and he said that as of that day, it would be
16 General Krstic who would take over the command over the corps and that he
17 would be in command of the Drina Corps as from then onwards. He didn't
18 stay long. Actually the two of them did not stay long. They left after
19 a short time.
20 Q. And what about any further instruction, order, or task for you?
21 A. Nothing special. General Krstic only said, Keep on in line of
22 the task, proceed towards Zepa.
23 Q. Now, did you discuss on the morning of the 13th of July the
24 whereabouts of the 28th Division?
25 A. I took the opportunity, and General Mladic's presence on Viogor.
1 In Viogor he told me on the 11th, when I asked about the whereabouts of
2 the 28th Division, and I asked him a similar thing. It was more of my
3 obstinance. I did not really expect to hear anything new. He said,
4 don't you worry, any such problems will be dealt with in an adequate way.
5 Q. Was there any discussion on that morning about the people that
6 you'd seen at Potocari?
7 A. No. As far as I can remember, nothing was said about that.
8 Q. Was anything said about the capture of prisoners of war?
9 A. No, again nothing.
10 MR. HAYNES: Now, I want now to have a look at a document with
11 you. This is 7D941.
12 Q. Mr. Pandurevic, you gave us a fairly full description yesterday
13 of what an Order to March is, and why it is created and what its purpose
14 is, so I don't think we need to go into that again, but how did this
15 document come to be created and when?
16 A. This document, as you can see in the heading, it says, "The
17 Command of the Tactical Group of the Zvornik Brigade," dates back to the
18 13th of July. That's when it was created. And one can see in the order
19 that it concerns the same echelons as the order for the 4th of July,
20 which means that the tactical group showed an identical composition.
21 I issued this order orally. I didn't know that operative
22 Dragutinovic ever typed this order, I don't even think that I signed it.
23 However, he is a very committed and responsible man and he put my order
24 on paper. The first time I saw this order written up was here. I'm not
25 sure that I saw it on the 13th of July when it was issued orally. I'm
1 sure that I issued this Order to March orally.
2 Q. Is it in Dragutinovic's handwriting?
3 A. Yes, it is his handwriting.
4 Q. And do you recall whether you gave the oral order on the 13th,
5 and if so, at what point in the day?
6 A. I issued the oral order. I'm sure that I issued it immediately
7 before the march started, but I can't be sure of the exact time that was.
8 In any case, it was in the early morning hours.
9 Q. Why was an order for march given on the 13th and not the day
10 before on the 12th?
11 A. Because on the 12th we had another task and that was to scour the
12 terrain, and our role was the role of reserve, and then we were supposed
13 to proceed marching from the Viogor location towards Zepa because it is
14 not the same tactical situation if you are a reserve on the one hand or
15 if you are marching on the other.
16 Q. Thank you. So what did you do, if it's not an obvious question,
17 on the 13th of July?
18 A. We started marching according to the deployment of the echelons
19 as per the order. And during the march we encountered a lot of problems
20 because the road was not very good and at one point we encountered
21 anti-tank mines. And one APC
22 for that part of the road to be cleared.
23 Q. How long did you march on the 13th of July?
24 A. In view of the number of kilometres that you can see in our
25 route, our march was very long and this was partly due to the reasons
1 that I've already mentioned.
2 The second reason for a long march was the fact that we stopped
3 in Vlasenici to refuel and then we continued moving towards the village
4 of Rijeka
5 Q. What time did you stop to refuel?
6 A. I believe that we stopped during the night, or rather, around
8 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. Can we now have a look at P177.
9 Q. Now, while this document is being enlarged so that everybody can
10 read the detail of it, just tell us what it is?
11 A. The document that we can see on the screen is the list of receipt
12 and issuance of fuel and lubricants. This was issued by the technical
13 organ of the logistics of the Drina Corps. We can see military post
14 71/11. This document could be found at petrol stations where vehicles
15 were refueled. It bears a number under which it was issued and the date
16 when it was issued, and then you can see that listed here are vehicles
17 with the travel orders and the numbers there are the registration numbers
18 and the quantities of the fuel issued to them. This list shows a list of
19 the vehicles of the tactical group which were refueled at this particular
20 petrol station.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, just a few questions so that we can, as it were,
22 cross refer it to another document we are going to see in a minute.
23 There is a number in the top left-hand corner which is 21/6-625.
24 Do you know what the significance of that number is?
25 A. I'm not a technical officer, but as a company commander in the
1 JNA I had an opportunity to see these type of documents. This number
2 indicates the number under which this document was registered in the book
3 of issuance of fuel and lubricants. So there is a higher -- a document
4 or a - so to speak - higher order that you can reference this document
6 Q. And if we go, as it were, to the diagonal opposite, there's
7 signature of a registered -- sorry, signature of an authorizing officer.
8 Whose signature would that be, or should that be?
9 A. I really cannot read either the name or the signature in the
10 original document. In English I see the name Vasiljevic. I don't know
11 who that person is. I think that this should be the person working at
12 this pump and who issued the fuel.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, going back up to the top right-hand corner, we
14 see in box number 4, the date of the 13th of July. What would or should
15 that represent?
16 A. That is the date when this list was opened at the pump.
17 Q. And if we look at the numerous vehicles that appear to have been
18 refueled, the date next to all of them is the 14th of July. Why was
20 A. The refueling was taking place during the night so if it started
21 around midnight
22 probably the reason why we have the date the 14th of July.
23 Q. Is that your recollection, that the refueling took place in the
24 small hours of the morning of the 14th?
25 A. Yes, yes. I remember that.
1 Q. And forgive me, you might have already told us this, but where is
2 this fuel pump, this gas station?
3 A. This petrol station is at the entrance to the town of Vlasenica
4 when you arrive from Zvornik. This station was used by the logistics
5 department of the Drina Corps.
6 Q. Thanks.
7 MR. HAYNES: Now, can we just go down to entry 13, please.
8 Q. The name on the far right-hand side is Dragan Stevic. You've
9 already told us the name of your driver. Is that his name?
10 A. Yes, that's the name and the signature of my driver who was given
11 68 -- or, rather, correction, 48 litres of fuel on that day.
12 Q. And the number plate T-2175, is that the registration number of
13 the car we saw on the video yesterday, the Nissan Patrol?
14 A. Probably it is. We can check it on the travel order because that
15 would also contain the licence plate number.
16 Q. I'll try to keep up with you, Mr. Pandurevic.
17 MR. HAYNES: We'll go to that now then, shall we. 7D91, please.
18 Q. By and large I prefer these documents in the Serbian, the
19 translation doesn't really add very much. But this is the -- what's
20 called the vehicle work log relating to a Nissan T-2175 for the period
21 the 1st to the 31st of July, and the drivers of that vehicle were Dragan
22 Stevic and Bogdan Pandurevic. Just out of interest, any relative?
23 A. Yes, he is my cousin. He stood in for Dragan Stevic as a driver
24 when the former was absent.
25 Q. And if we go down to the 14th of July of 1995. We see document
1 number 21/6-625. The same number we saw on the previous fuel log, 48
2 litres of fuel, and a signature. And just while we are here, whose
3 signature should appear under the column "manager's signature"?
4 A. As you said, this travel work log shows the document on the basis
5 of which the vehicle was fueled and that was the document 01/6-625, and
6 the handler's signature was the signatures of the person actually working
7 at the pump and filling the tanks of the vehicles. And this is to
8 certify that this person actually issued the fuel to whom he was supposed
9 to do that.
10 Q. Thanks. Who was travelling with you at that stage on the night
11 of the 13th and 14th of July?
12 A. You mean with me in the vehicle, or?
13 Q. Good question. Yes, that's what I meant.
14 A. Of course my driver, Dragan Stevic. Two escorts, soldiers, and a
15 signalsman. Whether Mijo Dragutinovic was with me in the car or whether
16 he was in another car, I really can't remember.
17 Q. And where did you go after you had refueled?
18 A. After all the vehicles had been refueled, I formed a marching
19 column, checked the situation, and we headed towards Han Pijesak and then
20 the village of Rijeka
21 Q. Anything memorable about that night that you can recall?
22 A. I remember that in the early morning hours, perhaps around 2.00
23 of the 14th of July, we arrived in the village of Rijeka
24 a make-shift camp, put up a tent, and that I slept for a few hours. The
25 other units were also deployed in the same area and we were waiting for
1 the dawn.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. HAYNES: Can we go to the second page, please, of the
4 document on our screen currently, 7D91.
5 Q. And I'd like to focus, please, with you, Mr. Pandurevic, on the
6 entries for the 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th of July. I don't think we
7 need to look at the number of persons apparently carried. That is always
8 constant. It's really the entries. The 11th of July, Zeleni Jadar
9 local. The 12th of July, Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica. The 13th of July
10 Srebrenica-Bratunac. 14th of July, Srebrenica-Han Pijesak.
11 Can you explain the entries for the 11th to the 14th of July to
12 us, please?
13 A. When a motor vehicle is used, each driver obliged to register the
14 route that the vehicle would take or had taken. The normal practice is
15 to fill in this box before the vehicle sets off. This is an evident
16 example how during combat it was very difficult for a driver to fill in
17 the routes of movement, because these routes were unpredictable, sudden,
18 sometimes shorter, sometimes longer. They are not related to any
19 residential areas or any known features, and particularly the driver is
20 not familiar with the names of these features. And we see here that the
21 driver Stevic sometimes registered actual routes and sometimes he just
22 filled it in in order to justify the mileage he made in the course of a
23 day, because at the end of each month the fuel consumption is calculated
24 and it has to tally with the mileage.
25 Q. Do the journeys apparently recorded for those days reflect in any
1 any way the journeys he and you were taking?
2 A. To my recollection to a very low extent. Very little. For
3 example, on the 11th, I wasn't in Zeleni Jadar at all. Maybe the driver
4 went there for some reason, but I didn't. So it is very difficult for me
5 to understand why we see these routes recorded as they are.
6 Q. On the 13th of July did you travel from Srebrenica to Bratunac?
7 A. No, I didn't, because on the 13th we left Viogor and took the
8 route that I already told you about.
9 Q. And before we come to the detail of it, on the 14th of July, did
10 you travel from Srebrenica to Han Pijesak?
11 A. No. As you can see, we travelled -- as you can see from the
12 previous documents and the order, we travelled on the
13 Viogor-Milici-Han Pijesak route. But, obviously, Srebrenica was a
14 destination that served to him as a kind of bench-mark for all the
16 MR. HAYNES: I want to show you now, please, P114.
17 Q. This is what we've come to call Stupcanica 95. The combat order
18 for Stupcanica 95. When did you first see this?
19 A. I first saw this order and received it on the 14th of July at the
20 forward command post at Kravice, that is the former command post of the
22 Q. When did you arrive at Kravice?
23 A. On the morning of the 14th after the dawn when we woke up, it
24 might have been around 10.00. I went to the Kravice forward command
25 post, reported to General Krstic, and received my order.
1 Q. Where all your units then present?
2 A. When I went to the forward command post to receive the order, the
3 units remained in the so-called expecting region in the village of
6 MR. HAYNES: And can we go to page 2 of the document now then,
8 Q. We see your written task at point 4 there, the Zvornik Infantry
9 Brigade from Podzeplje-Brloznik area shall attack the enemy along the
10 village of Pertici
11 enemy along the line of attack. Reach the Palez-Borak line and continue
12 the advance. The next task is to reach Zepa.
13 Just give us some sort of picture of this. When your corps
14 commander, as he by then was, gives you an order like this, does he sit
15 you down, point the paragraph out to you and tell what you it means, or
16 does he just hand you a piece of paper or does he tell you what you've
17 got to do?
18 A. I think I wasn't alone at the forward command post when I
19 received this order. I think then some other brigade commanders were
20 there as well. We were given the order, we read it, and the corps
21 commander gave us some additional instructions as regards the execution
22 of the tasks that we had been given. I informed him that I understood
23 the task, and I went back to my unit. And then I started taking the unit
24 from the expecting region to the deployment area in anticipation of an
1 Q. Well, I'd just like you please, to point out to us where Krivaca
2 is on the map behind you, which will then enable us to get rid of it so
3 that the public gallery can see the Court more clearly.
4 A. If you see this rectangular flag, this is where the Drina Corps
5 forward command post was. This is Krivaca under the Velika Zepa
7 MR. HAYNES: Actually, it's a nice break when this could be done.
8 I'd just like to introduce now two exhibits to show the movements of
9 tactical group 1 and the movements of General Pandurevic as set out in
10 the evidence he's already given. And the first of those is 7D1059. And
11 this, again, is an attachment to the report of Admiral Antic. And we
12 might as well just play them both so that we can see, as it were, the
13 differences between the two videos.
14 Well, I'm not going to lose any time. If this is going to take a
15 little while to come on, there are a few questions I can fill the time
17 Q. What did you understand the task or the objective of Stupcanica
18 1995 to be?
19 A. In the order itself relating to Stupcanica 95, clear tasks have
20 been assigned to the units and the targets of attack, and these were
21 primarily forces of the --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters would kindly ask the witness to
23 repeat the name of the unit.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to stop you like this, but the interpreters
25 need you to repeat the name of the units, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't say the name
2 of the units. I said the units of the Army of Republika Srpska. And the
3 target of attack were the forces of the Zepa Brigade whereas the civilian
4 population and UNPROFOR were not the targets of the actions of the VRS.
5 And I would also like to add that this order and Stupcanica 95 operation,
6 unlike Krivaja 95, included some other units that were not involved in
7 combat operations in Krivaja 95 operation. And these units had already
8 been partly involved in combat activities around Zepa. And for that
9 reason, General Mladic was rushing the forces on the 11th from Krivaja 95
10 operation to head as soon as possible to Zepa.
11 MR. HAYNES:
12 Q. Did you understand the objective of the operation to be to take
13 the town itself?
14 A. Zepa is a large village with a number of hamlets around it. It
15 is very inaccessible because it is in the mountainous area. And this
16 task, as far as I can remember, as it was formulated, the units were
17 supposed to reach the area of Zepa.
18 Q. And then do what?
19 A. To neutralise the Zepa Brigade, and this neutralisation would be
20 effected either by disarming it and making it to surrender.
21 Q. There's an "either" in the sentence you just said. Did you offer
22 an alternative to my question other than disarming it and making it
24 A. In the military vocabulary, when one carries out tasks, you can
25 use terms such as "neutralise enemy forces" or destroy -- and "destroy
1 enemy forces." The destruction of enemy forces is self-explanatory.
2 That means to inflict as many losses on them so that they would no longer
3 pose a combat or military threat. To neutralise means -- doesn't mean to
4 destroy, but it means to bring them to -- into such a situation that they
5 are no longer able to put up resistance by either making threat, or by
6 voluntary agreement.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is what we heard the
8 witness say.
9 MR. HAYNES: Thank you very much. Thank you.
10 Q. Now, in military terms on the 14th of July after you had received
11 the order from General Krstic, what did you do?
12 A. After we received the order, I led my unit from the Rijeka
13 village sector to the sector of Podzeplje near a school. I deployed them
14 into a combat line and from the Podzeplje sector we launched an attack
15 along the Podzeplje-Brloznik village and Brloska mountain axis.
16 Q. What were the respective positions of your line and the defence
17 lines of the Zepa Brigade?
18 A. In the Podzeplje area, the VRS units had been deployed from
19 before. I think it was a battalion made up of members of an older age,
20 and it was part of the 65th Motorised Regiment. And for a number of
21 years they had been in these same positions. At about 1 and a half to 2
22 kilometres from their positions were the positions of the Zepa Brigade.
23 And I engaged my units in the combat through the positions of this
24 battalion and covered this no-man's land which was about 2 kilometres
25 wide. That all happened on the 14th.
1 Q. And how far was that from the village of Zepa
2 A. Roughly speaking about 10 kilometres.
3 Q. And was there much fighting on the 14th of July?
4 A. These were sporadic skirmishes and fighting where the forces of
5 the Zepa Brigade opened machine-gun fire from the surrounding peaks, and
6 we responded by firing back. There was no shifting of the frontline of
7 the Zepa Brigade during that day.
8 Q. And where did you spend the night of the 14th of July?
9 A. I spent the night in the school there. In Podzeplje, the school
10 did not have either a door or any windows. It was in a bad state of
11 repair. Most of the command spent the night with me.
12 MR. HAYNES: Now, we're going to have another go at playing these
13 two short sections of video. And would you watch them, please.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. HAYNES: Just so it's in the record, those two videos have
16 two separate surrogate sheets. The first is 7D1058, the second is
17 7D1059. And everybody has been disclosed that along with the other
18 appendices to Admiral Antic's expert report, but if there's anything else
19 we can do to assist anybody accessing that material, we will of course do
21 Q. Now, you've already given, I think, all the, as it were, stop off
22 points of your journey between the 4th and the 14th of July, but did the
23 first of those videotapes accurately reflect the movement of your units
24 in that period?
25 A. Yes, I believe that it does completely. The only thing is that
1 perhaps for technical reasons at arrow was moved too much to the west
2 from Srebrenica before it forked off towards Viogor.
3 Q. Thank you for that. And the second of those videos, did that
4 accurately reflect, perhaps with that one same caveat, your own personal
5 movements in the periods of the 4th to the 14th of July?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, by this point, namely the 14th of July, had you made contact
8 with the command of the Zvornik Brigade since the time you left Zvornik
9 on the 4th of July?
10 A. As far as my memory serves me, on the 5th of July I used RU-1
11 radio relay equipment at the IKM of the Drina Corps at Pribicevac, and I
12 established communication with the Zvornik Brigade. Because I had
13 realised that the tank company was missing grenades and I asked for the
14 grenades to be supplied. And I remember another case, on the 7th of
15 July, I believe, on the day when there was no combat due to adverse
16 weather conditions, I remembered some teaching materials that should have
17 been photocopied and delivered to the students of the school of
18 technology. The thought just occurred to me on that day.
19 MR. HAYNES: Can we have placed into e-court, please, now, and I
20 think we are going to give you the hard copy from now on because it's a
21 document we'll be referring to repeatedly. But can we have P377, the
22 duty officer's notebook of the Zvornik Brigade, page 96 in both
23 documents. Thank you.
24 Q. And you will need to know the ERN number, Mr. Pandurevic, it's
25 5714 are the last four letters.
1 A. Yes, I've got it.
2 Q. About half to two-thirds of the way -- well, halfway down the
3 page, do you see the name Cvetko Pavlovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And just below that an entry which says "50 tank rounds of 100
7 A. Yes, it says 50 tank grenades or rounds.
8 Q. Now, that's all a bit enigmatic, but can you confirm for us that
9 that is an entry on the 5th of July, can you?
10 A. I can see the date 6 of July on the following page. However, on
11 the previous page -- yes, the 5th of July which points to the conclusion
12 that this note does refer to the 5th of July.
13 MR. HAYNES: Well, let's see if we can get a better record of
14 events. P378, the war diary at B/C/S -- sorry, the duty operations
15 officer's diary. B/C/S page 83. The English translation is 7D1075.
16 Yes, please, Ms. Stewart, that's very helpful. Thank you very much.
17 Q. Mr. Pandurevic, you're looking for the last four numbers, 6685.
18 And have you got that page, Mr. Pandurevic?
19 A. Unbelievable, it opened precisely on that page. And I would like
20 to thank Mr. McCloskey for allowing me to have this document in my hands
21 for the first time ever in my whole life.
22 Q. Can you read the entry at 1700 hours, please?
23 A. Yes. It says Commander Pandurevic called and asked for 50 rounds
24 of 100 millimetre. Ljubo Bojanovic informed the assistant commander for
1 Q. We can see that that's the 5th of July by looking further at the
3 MR. HAYNES: Now, we'll just go through that exercise quickly in
4 relation to the 7th of July, before we take the break, if that's okay
5 with everybody.
6 Can we look now at P377 again. B/C/S and English page 101. And
7 if Mr. Pandurevic can be handed back the original of the duty operations
8 officer's log-book. He is looking for 5719 is the last four numbers on
9 the ERN.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've got that.
11 Q. And you should find an entry at 1110 in the morning, which reads:
12 "Brigade commander reported from Zeleni Jadar region" --
13 I'm sorry, I'm reading the wrong one.
14 "Colonel Pandurevic called. They are well. They worked,
15 materials to be taken and handed to the faculty."
16 And you've already told us what that referred to. What did you
17 teach, just out of interest?
18 A. Yes, I can confirm that I found this note in the log-book
19 identical as you presented it. At that time I was the assistant in
20 sociology since this was a school of technology and social ecology was
21 one of the subjects within sociology, and this happened to have been my
22 masters thesis. I was selected as the best suited person to teach that
23 particular subject at that school.
24 Q. Said with your usual modesty, Mr. Pandurevic.
25 MR. HAYNES: Can we turn to P378 and you are looking at 6686, and
1 we need B/C/S page 84. And the English translation is for the 7th of
3 A. Yes, I can see that in the original as well.
4 Q. Can you read us, please, the entry for 1110?
5 A. Yes. It says:
6 "The brigade commander reported from the Zeleni Jadar sector.
7 The situation in the unit is good," as signed by the duty operations
9 Q. Now, just to conclude the topic, other than those two calls made
10 from the forward command post, as you've told us, did you contact the
11 command of the Zvornik Brigade at all between the 4th and the 14th of
13 A. If I'd done it during that period, it would have been reflected
14 in one of the two documents that we have just seen here. To the best of
15 my recollection, I did not have any such contacts.
16 MR. HAYNES: Thank you. And that would be a convenient moment.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We'll have a 25-minute break starting
18 now, it's quarter past noon.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.15 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
22 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. During the period the 4th to the 14th of July, did anybody from
24 the Zvornik Brigade get in contact with you? I should specify, from the
25 command of the Zvornik Brigade?
1 A. Nobody from the command of the Zvornik Brigade attempted to
2 contact me. Nobody from Zvornik did either.
3 Q. To be honest this might be obvious, but was your advice or view
4 sought on any decision taken by brigade command during that period?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. And just to clear this up, on the 11th of July, you have told us
7 that you were in the command of the Bratunac Brigade. Did you take the
8 opportunity then to make contact with the brigade command in Zvornik?
9 A. No, I did not make any contacts with them. I was still
10 performing my tasks and I was under the immediate command of General
12 Q. While we are recapping on the period of your absence, I just want
13 to go through with you a few things that were going on at the Zvornik
14 Brigade during that period.
15 MR. HAYNES: And can we start, please, by having in e-court P110.
16 Q. Now, this is the Drina Corps order of the 12th of July for the
17 provision of buses for the evacuation from the Srebrenica enclave. And
18 it was sent, amongst other people, to the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
19 On the 12th of July, did you know anything about that order?
20 A. No, I didn't know anything about this order. This order went
21 straight to the command of the Zvornik Brigade, and it was Mr. Obrenovic
22 who acted upon this order.
23 Q. And did he need your authority to accept the order and comply
24 with it?
25 A. No, not at all. He was directly subordinated to the corps
1 command, he received his orders from him and he was duty-bound to act
2 upon those orders.
3 Q. Were you consulted as to whether that order should be complied
5 A. No, nobody consulted me.
6 MR. HAYNES: Now, can we have a look please, at P157.
7 Q. And this is another Drina Corps order of the 12th of July of
8 1995, addressed not to so many brigades this time but to the 1st Zvornik
9 Infantry Brigade, and it concerns an order to regulate traffic on the
10 Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road, and it says:
11 "The command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade will assign a motorised
12 patrol of the military traffic police to regulate the traffic at the
13 Konjevic Polje junction. The priority shall be given to buses travelling
14 from Srebrenica. Take over the Konjevic Polje junction at 1630 on the
15 12th of July."
16 I mean, firstly, was that order delivered to you?
17 A. No. It was sent straight to the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
18 It was never delivered to me.
19 Q. Did you know anything about it?
20 A. No, I didn't know anything about it.
21 Q. Did Dragan Obrenovic need your authority to accept or comply with
22 that order?
23 A. No, he made decisions in compliance with this order.
24 Q. And did anybody contact you to see whether you thought it was a
25 good idea for that order to be complied with?
1 A. No, nobody did. If this would have happened, the thing that you
2 are asking me about, then the function of the deputy commander or the
3 person standing in for commander in his absence would be deprived of any
4 sense. And this function could be performed by anybody who can dial a
5 telephone number, establish contact, and ask the commander - who wasn't
6 there - what to do. However, a deputy or a person standing in for the
7 commander is considered to be qualified to make independent decisions.
8 Q. Thank you. Well, let's follow these things through a little bit.
9 MR. HAYNES: P322, please. The regular combat report for the
10 12th of July.
11 Q. Again, can we see from paragraph 2 of that order that the brigade
12 on that day sent to Bratunac, pursuant to your order, eight buses from
14 and one military police detachment was sent to Konjevic Polje pursuant to
15 your order.
16 What can we deduce from that document?
17 A. What I can deduce were this combat is that in the regular combat
18 report the command of the Zvornik Brigade, i.e., Dragan Obrenovic,
19 reports to the command of the Drina Corps that in everything they acted
20 upon the order that I received from them, and the order concerned all the
21 things listed in here.
22 MR. HAYNES: Just to deal with one feature of this document. Can
23 we go quickly to page 2, please.
24 Q. It bears your typed signature. Were you in the command of the
25 Zvornik Brigade on the 12th of July at ten past 5.00 in the afternoon?
1 A. No, I wasn't. You can see that this regular combat report does
2 not bear my signature.
3 Q. And did you know of or approve the contents of that report before
4 it was sent to Drina Corps?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 MR. HAYNES: Can we just look at a page from the duty officer's
7 notebook for the same day, the 12th of July, to give ourselves some
8 further examples. So it's P377 in e-court. English pages 114. Sorry,
9 the pages are the same, page 114 in both documents. And if -- thank you,
10 Ms. Stewart.
11 Q. If Mr. Pandurevic could look at page 5732 in the hard copy.
12 While we're getting there, you've dealt with this on a number of
13 occasions before, but why would your block signature appear on a report
14 when you were out of the brigade's command and commanding another unit?
15 A. I believe that we have already discussed that. I believe that
16 it was either on the first day or the second day of my testimony. There
17 were different variations when it comes to block signature. Sometime it
18 is would be my name, sometimes the Chief of Staff's name, or a third
19 person's name. It all depended on who the operations duty officer was
20 and how that person understood the situation. And according to that
21 understanding, he would use one of the names in the block signature.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, I'm interested in looking at in the English, so
23 you can find it yourself in the original document, a large section that
24 appears from -- that begins with the phrase "The 1st Platoon of the
25 military police ambush at Dzafin Kamen. The 1st platoon of the 4th
1 infantry battalion, Tisova Kosa ambush."
2 And then a reference to the Drina Corps order.
3 And then further down:
4 "Radika requested assistance in manpower to stop the Turks. We
5 are sending a Praga."
6 A section we've looked at before. What are these records of in
7 the duty officer's notebook?
8 A. These records in this notebook reflect the events during that
9 period in the territory in Zvornik, i.e., in the Zvornik Brigade. The
10 duty operations officer pursuant to Dragan Obrenovic's interventions or
11 interventions by some other persons enters all the activities that were
12 underway or records orders that were to be conveyed to some units.
13 Q. And the 1st platoon of the military police ambush at Dzafin
14 Kamen. What does that appear to reflect?
15 A. This means that the 1st platoon of the military police company
16 was tasked with going to Dzafin Kamen, which was south-west of Zvornik.
17 They were supposed to set up an ambush there. I suppose elements of the
18 28th Division were expected to appear on that axis.
19 Q. Anybody ask you whether they should do that?
20 A. No. These were independent decisions taken by Dragan Obrenovic
21 who was standing in for the brigade commander.
22 Q. And going to the bottom of the page, anybody ask you whether a
23 Praga should be sent to Radika?
24 A. No, nobody did.
25 Q. And did it appear from the document you just saw, the combat
1 report of the 12th of July, that that was done?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, you'll be able to do this a lot quicker than the rest of us,
4 but can you turn to page 5733 in the duty officer's notebook, which is
5 the next page. In the e-court copy that's page 115.
6 Now, there's a very long section that begins: "After the
7 take-over of the Srebrenica...," can you see it?
8 A. Yes, I can.
9 Q. I'm not going to read it out because I'll do it too quickly and
10 infuriate the interpreters, but we can all read it to ourselves.
11 What does that record?
12 A. This is an order. In its first part, basic information about the
13 enemy are given. In this particular instance these are the units of the
14 28th Division. Based on his own assessment and information Obrenovic
15 provided these details, and based thereon to all commanders except of the
16 6th infantry battalion he issued tasks and ordered measures to be taken.
17 This telegram was recorded by the duty operations officer and
18 forwarded to the battalion command in this form.
19 Q. Again, at the risk of being repetitive, did you have any input on
20 the decision-making process and the making of that order?
21 A. No. No, I didn't.
22 MR. HAYNES: Can we go over one more page to 5734. And page 116
23 in the e-court.
24 Q. I might have allowed things to slip a little, Mr. Pandurevic,
25 what date are we on now on page 5734?
1 A. The previous date was the 12th of July and I'm following the
2 pages. The handwriting is the same. I think that what we have just
3 discussed on page 5734 also bears the date of the 12th of July.
4 Q. Thank you for that. Now, I'm interested in the entry in the
5 middle of that page:
6 "The 4th and 7th Battalions, everything all right. Measures
7 taken pursuant to order, the 2nd Battalion, the 7th and 4th Battalion,
8 conscripts are to..." something "... lines to the maximum - at least
9 three of them should stand guard."
10 And what does that entry record?
11 A. The word that you couldn't read says that they should become
12 completely serious. This is another order issued directly to the
13 battalions on the frontline to be fully in combat readiness for possible
14 combat engagement.
15 Q. Were you consulted about or did you know about the making of that
16 order by Dragan Obrenovic?
17 A. I didn't know anything about it and nobody consulted me.
18 MR. HAYNES: Can we look at P1032, please.
19 Q. This is the Drina Corps order of the 13th of July to prevent the
20 passage of Muslim groups to Tuzla
21 reads in the English:
22 "I hereby order brigade commands in their areas of
23 responsibility will employ all available able-bodied men to discover,
24 block, arm, capture any Muslim groups observed and prevent their crossing
25 into Muslim territory. Set rounds the clock ambushes along the entire
1 Zvornik-Crni Vrh-Sekovici-Vlasenica, arrange protection for people and
2 property in Serbian villages along the route taken by the groups. And,
3 to this end, engage all who can carry a gun. Vigorously prevent
4 individual departures from villages. Put captured and disarmed Muslims
5 in suitable buildings that can be secured by small forces and immediately
6 inform the superior command."
7 Did General Krstic or General Zivanovic deliver that order to
9 A. No, they didn't.
10 Q. You were in contact with General Krstic on the 13th of July, did
11 he tell you about that order?
12 A. No, he didn't tell me anything. I don't know at what time this
13 order was sent out. I can't see it on the document. But in its preamble
14 one can see that they have plenty information about the intentions of the
15 28th Division.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. HAYNES: And can we now go to P325.
18 Q. This is the Zvornik Brigade daily combat report of the 13th of
19 July. And it records that the primary task for the units is:
20 "In order to cut off groups of Turks retreating from Srebrenica
21 towards Tuzla
22 following steps." And then a whole list of steps are taken.
23 How does this report to the corps command correspond to the
24 document on the corps' order that we were just looking at?
25 A. This regular combat report issued by the Zvornik Brigade command
1 contains what measures it had taken pursuant to the order and based on
2 their own assessment. Some of these measures were recorded in the work
3 log-book of the duty operations officer.
4 Q. And so just to conclude this section, what do these various
5 examples of the operation of the brigade tell us about who gave orders to
6 Dragan Obrenovic?
7 A. This clearly indicates that Dragan Obrenovic received his orders
8 from the corps command and that he was under directly -- he was directly
9 under their command.
10 Q. And his authority to comply with those orders?
11 A. This shows that pursuant to the principle of single authority --
12 singleness of command, he made decisions based on the decisions and
13 orders from the command and based on his own assessment.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Pandurevic, in the light of the way the Prosecution's
15 case has been put, I'd like to ask you a series of specific questions
16 about the actions of Dragan Obrenovic, and I need to put briefly into
17 e-court a document which is under seal.
18 MR. HAYNES: And that is P2911. So it should not be broadcast.
19 And we need to look at page 2, paragraph 5.
20 Q. Now, this is just as a preliminary. I assume you are aware that
21 Dragan Obrenovic pleaded guilty to count 5 of his own indictment, a
22 charge of persecutions. Were you aware of that?
23 A. I knew that he pleaded guilty, but to which counts from the
24 indictment specifically, I don't know.
25 Q. Very well. Well, just to ground some future question, we are
1 looking at paragraph 5 which reads in the English:
2 "Dragan Obrenovic understands that he is pleading guilty to
3 count 5 of the indictment" --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down when reading.
5 MR. HAYNES.
6 Q. "... persecutions, a crime against humanity, specifically
7 acknowledging and admitting his conduct as set forth in paragraphs 4-8,
8 15-27, 29-33, 36, 45, 46, 46.6-46.12," and some other paragraphs. Can
9 you see that?
10 A. Yes, I can.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me.
12 MR. HAYNES: I realise what I've done.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private session.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 MR. HAYNES: We can take that document off the screen because
25 that is all I want to refer to, and we can put on to the screen in
1 e-court, please, P2930, the indictment which is not, I think, anything
2 other than a public document. And can we start, please, with paragraph
3 29 which is page 7 in the English and page 8 in the B/C/S.
4 Q. Yes. Now, everybody can see this, but I'll read it. This is
5 paragraph 29, which as we know, he specifically acknowledged in his plea
6 agreement and it says:
7 "Dragan Obrenovic, during the time periods when he was the
8 deputy commander, acting commander, or commander, is criminally
9 responsible for the acts of his subordinates pursuant to Article 7(3) of
10 the statute of the Tribunal if he knew or had reason to know that his
11 subordinates were about to commit criminal acts or had done so and he
12 failed to take the necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts
13 or to punish the perpetrators thereof."
14 MR. HAYNES: Can we now go please to paragraph 46.6 at page 15 in
15 the English, page 16 in the B/C/S.
16 Q. Now, this is another paragraph, the facts of which he
17 specifically admitted pursuant to his plea agreement, and it relates to
18 the crimes committed at Orahovac. And it reads:
19 "In the late evening hours of 13th of July and during the day of
20 the 14th of July 1995, personnel from the military police company of the
21 Bratunac Brigade working together with other individuals and units
22 transported hundreds of Bosnian-Muslim males from in and around Bratunac
23 to the Grbavci school in the village of Orahovac
24 men had been captured from the column of men retreating from the the
25 Srebrenica enclave or separated in Potocari.
1 "On the 14th of July, 1995, VRS personnel, including members of
2 the military police company of the Zvornik Brigade, under the command and
3 control of Dragan Obrenovic, guarded and blindfolded the Bosnian Muslim
4 males detained at the Grbavci school. In the early afternoon of the 14th
5 of July, VRS personnel transported these Bosnian Muslim males from the
6 school at Grbavci to a nearby field where personnel, including members of
7 the 4th battalion of the Zvornik Brigade, under the command and control
8 of Dragan Obrenovic, ordered the prisoners off the trucks and summarily
9 executed them with automatic weapons. Approximately 1.000 Bosnian Muslim
10 males were killed.
11 "On the 14th and 15th of July, 1995, members of the Zvornik
12 Brigade Engineering Company under the direction of Dragan Jokic used
13 heavy equipment to bury the victims in mass graves at the execution site,
14 while the executions continued. On the evening of the 14th of July,
15 lights from the engineering machinery illuminated the execution and
16 burial sites during the executions."
17 Mr. Pandurevic, did you issue any order for any unit of the
18 Zvornik Brigade to take part in any operation together with military
19 policeman from Bratunac and/or other units to transport prisoners to the
20 Grbavci school in the village of Orahovac
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. Were you aware that Dragan Obrenovic had given such order?
23 A. I don't know about that, and I believe it was not his place to
24 give such an order.
25 Q. Were you consulted by Dragan Obrenovic or anybody else about the
1 carrying out of such an operation?
2 A. No, I wasn't. I didn't know that that operation was in progress.
3 Q. Did you give any order that military policemen from the Zvornik
4 Brigade should be used to guard and blindfold prisoners at the Grbavci
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. Did you know that Dragan Obrenovic had given any such order?
8 A. No, I didn't know.
9 Q. Were you consulted about whether any such thing should be done by
10 Dragan Obrenovic or anybody else?
11 A. No, nobody consulted me.
12 Q. Did you give any order that prisoners should be taken from the
13 Grbavci school to a nearby school and executed?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Did you give any order that any unit of the Zvornik Brigade
16 should take part in any such activity?
17 A. I didn't.
18 Q. Did you give any order that any member of the Zvornik Brigade
19 should take part in such an activity?
20 A. I didn't.
21 Q. Did Dragan Obrenovic consult you about whether he should give
22 orders for the killing of prisoners to take place?
23 A. No, he didn't.
24 Q. Had he asked you whether he should give such an order, what would
25 you have said?
1 A. No, he didn't.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think this is what the witness said.
3 MR. HAYNES: It's probably my fault for using the word "had"
4 instead of "if."
5 Q. If he had consulted you about whether he should give an order to
6 have prisoners killed, what would you have said?
7 A. I would never have given him such an order.
8 Q. Well, this is really important, I'm going to try that again. If
9 he had asked you about whether he should give such an order, what would
10 you have said?
11 A. I would have told him not to issue such an order at all.
12 Q. You've told us how you interpret paragraph 116 of the brigade
13 rules, but is the killing of prisoners in the spirit of your command of
14 the Zvornik Brigade?
15 A. No, it wasn't. I wasn't in command of the Zvornik Brigade at the
16 time and there was not a single decision of mine that anyone could have
17 referred to, including Dragan Obrenovic.
18 MR. HAYNES: Can we go down the page now, please to paragraph
19 46. --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that really responsive to your question?
21 MR. HAYNES: I don't think it is, but I'll try again.
22 Q. Is killing prisoners part of the spirit of your command of the
23 Zvornik Brigade?
24 A. No.
25 MR. HAYNES: Paragraph 46.7. The Petkovci school.
1 Q. "On the 14th of July 1995, VRS and/or MUP personnel transported
2 approximately 1.000 Bosnian Muslim males from detention sites in and
3 around Bratunac to the school at Petkovci. These Bosnian Muslim men had
4 been captured from the column of men retreating from the Srebrenica
5 enclave or separated in Potocari. On the 14th of July and the early
6 morning hours of the 15th of July, VRS and/or MUP personnel struck, beat,
7 and assaulted and shot with automatic weapons Bosnian Muslim males being
8 detained at the school.
9 "Dragan Obrenovic, as deputy commander commanding the Zvornik
10 Brigade in the absence of the commander, exercised command, control, and
11 coordination duties associated with the detention of prisoners at the
12 Petkovci school."
13 Did you issue any order for any unit of the Zvornik Brigade to
14 take part in any operation alone or together with MUP units to transport
15 prisoners to the Petkovci school?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. Were you aware that Dragan Obrenovic had given any such order?
18 A. No, I wasn't.
19 Q. Were you consulted by Dragan Obrenovic or anybody else about the
20 carrying out of such an operation?
21 A. No, I wasn't.
22 Q. Did you give any order that any unit from the Zvornik Brigade
23 should be used to beat, assault, or kill prisoners at the Pilica school?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. Did you know that Dragan Obrenovic had given any such order?
1 A. No, I didn't know.
2 Q. Were you consulted about whether any such thing should be done by
3 Dragan Obrenovic or anybody else?
4 A. No, nobody consulted me.
5 Q. Had -- sorry, I'm about to make the same mistake again.
6 If Dragan Obrenovic had asked you whether he should give such an
7 order, what would you have said?
8 A. I would have told him not to issue such an order.
9 MR. HAYNES: Can we go to paragraph 46.8, please.
10 Q. The dam near Petkovci:
11 "On or about the evening of the 14th of July 1995 and the
12 early morning hours of the 15th of July 1995, VRS personnel from the
13 Zvornik Brigade, under the command and control of Dragan Obrenovic,
14 including drivers and trucks from the 6th Infantry Battalion of the
15 Zvornik Brigade, transported the surviving members of the group of
16 approximately 1.000 Bosnian Muslim males from the school at Petkovci to
17 an area below the dam near Petkovci. They were assembled below the dam
18 and summarily executed by VRS or MUP soldiers with automatic weapons.
19 "In the morning of the 15th of July, 1995, VRS personnel from the
20 Engineering Company of the Zvornik Brigade, working under the direction
21 of Dragan Jokic and together with other individuals and units, used
22 excavators and other heavy equipment to bury the victims while the
23 executions continued."
24 Mr. Pandurevic, did you issue any order to the 6th Infantry
25 Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade or any other unit to transport the
1 prisoners to Petkovci dam?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. Were you aware that Dragan Obrenovic had given any such order?
4 A. I was not.
5 Q. Were you consulted by Dragan Obrenovic or anybody else about the
6 carrying out of such an operation?
7 A. No, either [as interpreted] Dragan Obrenovic or anybody else.
8 Q. Did you give any order that the 6th Infantry Battalion of the
9 Zvornik Brigade or any other unit to assemble and summarily execute the
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. Did you know that Dragan Obrenovic had given any such order?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. Were you consulted by Dragan Obrenovic as to whether he should
15 give such an order?
16 A. No, he didn't consult me.
17 Q. If he had consulted you, what would you have told him?
18 A. I would have told him not to do any such thing.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Now, we've got ten minutes so we'll move on
20 from there.
21 What happened on the morning of the 15th of July of 1995?
22 A. On the 15th of July, 1995, in the morning I was in the vicinity
23 of Podzeplje. I ordered the units of the tactical group to proceed with
24 combat activities in the spirit of the previously issued task in keeping
25 with the Stupcanica 95 operation.
1 Q. Did there come a point where you were called away to go to the
2 forward command post?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who called you?
5 A. The call came from the IKM of the Drina Corps. I believe it was
6 Milenko Jevdjevic who called me, he was the signalsmen that, he conveyed
7 a message to me to report to General Krstic.
8 Q. And did you?
9 A. Yes, I did. I went to the forward command post.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, we might just want to get the names of
11 the individuals correct on the record. I don't think we did right, who
12 called him.
13 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I'm sorry.
14 Q. Would you -- you mentioned - I don't think there's any mystery
15 about this - you mentioned the name of signalsman who called you to go to
16 the forward command post and it didn't appear, so can you repeat it?
17 A. Milenko Jevdjevic.
18 Q. Who was at the forward command post when you got there?
19 A. When I arrived there, I saw General Krstic, Major Jevdjevic, and
20 some other soldiers, signalsmen, and some people from the office of the
22 Q. Did you have a conversation with General Krstic?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. What did he say to you?
25 A. I was not clear why he had called me. I reported to him. I
1 asked him what the problem was. And as far as I can remember, he showed
2 me some telegrams, some documents, which I read. He told me that he had
3 certain problems on the combat lines of the Zvornik Brigade, and that
4 Dragan Obrenovic had asked for reinforcement.
5 Q. I just want to review some documents with you very quickly before
6 the weekend.
7 MR. HAYNES: Can we have a look at P327, please, in e-court.
8 Q. This is the Zvornik Brigade interim combat report of the 14th of
9 July which reads:
10 "Tonight at around 2020 a large group of Muslims passed
11 through the broader Maricici area proceeding towards the Zvornik-Caparde
12 road. A column about 2 or 3 kilometres long and another part of a column
13 were observed in the area of Josanica and Liplje."
14 Do you recall whether that was one of the documents that General
15 Krstic showed you on the morning of the 15th of July?
16 A. I remember the contents of a similar document, but I don't think
17 that it was in the same shape or form. I believe it was in the shape of
18 of a telegram which was subsequently typed on a teletypewriter.
19 MR. HAYNES: Very well. Can we move on to P169, please.
20 Q. Could you tell us what the source of this document is and what
21 sort of document it is?
22 A. This document originates from the command of the Drina Corps. It
23 represents a sort of notification or information. The information was
24 obtained from the security centre in Zvornik. And this report also
25 contains information on what the MUP units and the Zvornik Brigade units
1 were up to. This telegram was signed by Colonel Jocic, Pedrag. He was
2 in the operations organ of the Drina Corps, and this was delivered to the
3 attention of General Krstic at the forward command post at Krivace.
4 Q. And can you now recall whether this was one of the documents that
5 General Krstic showed you on 15th of July, 1995?
6 A. I believe that there were other documents bearing Colonel Jocic's
7 signature. But this is more or less the kind of information that I was
8 made aware of on that morning and I believe that I remember this.
9 Q. Sorry to try your patience, Mr. Pandurevic, but just one more.
10 MR. HAYNES: P163, please. That's P163, just three digits. 163.
11 Q. And again read it through to yourself, I'm not going to read it
12 out aloud to you. Can you recall whether this was a document you saw on
13 that morning?
14 A. I remember a document issued by the radio surveillance platoon of
15 the Drina Corps, they were engaged in listening in the radio relay
16 communication of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I remember the
17 contents as they are here; Naser Oric's name was mentioned, and the
18 intentions of the BiH Army to link up the units of the 2nd Corps with
19 elements of the 28th Division.
20 Q. Can you now recall how many documents in total General Krstic
21 showed to you on that morning?
22 A. I remember the contents of three documents similar to the ones
23 that have been shown here. I don't know whether there were any other
24 documents. I can't be sure of that and there's nothing I can say to that
25 effect. At that moment, I was more interested in the contents or the
1 information contained in the documents than in their numbers.
2 MR. HAYNES: Thank you, Mr. Pandurevic, with the Mr. President's
3 leave I think we'll leave it there for the weekend.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Haynes.
5 Mr. Haynes, where do we stand. You had estimated 30 minutes.
6 MR. HAYNES: If only.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: 30 hours. 30 hours. So far we have consumed 13
8 hours or so. Where do we stand?
9 MR. HAYNES: I think the estimate is going to be pretty much bang
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. All right. That helps us plan pretty
12 well, then. Thank you.
13 We will reconvene on Monday morning at 9.00, and I wish everyone
14 a happy weekend.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of February
17 2009 at 9.00 a.m.