1 Friday, 20 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Nikolic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning. Madam Registrar, could you call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is IT-05-88-T,
9 the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am. For the record, the accused
11 Nikolic is not present. I am informed, Ms. Nikolic will confirm, I
12 suppose, that he's not feeling well and that a waiver is on its way; is
13 that correct?
14 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, my client is
15 ill, and I believe that during the first session, we shall receive the
16 waiver from the detention unit so that we can proceed in his absence.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. As far as your presentation is
18 concerned, I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Sarapa, and
19 Mr. Krgovic.
20 Good morning to you, Mr. Pandurevic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Ostojic.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless there are preliminaries, which I'm not
25 informed of you, in any case, you may continue with your
1 cross-examination. Do you think you will finish today?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: The plan is to try my best, but I think I may just
3 need a session or so on Monday but if I do finish we'll know sooner,
4 closer to the end of the day, I would suspect but I'm hoping to get done.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Pandurevic, if you keep your
6 answers more succinct, I think it will help Mr. Ostojic end yourself,
7 finish with his cross-examination and also for the rest of the week
8 today. So let's start.
9 WITNESS: VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir. Can we please have P378 back, we
13 kind of ended with that late last night, which is, I don't know, it's
14 called sometimes a war diary but it's the log book; and if we could have
15 the assistant of the usher to give Mr. Pandurevic the original that would
16 be helpful with leave of Court.
17 Q. Now, as you are getting this -- good morning, Mr. Pandurevic, I'm
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Receiving this book here, yesterday, we kind of covered late that
21 there were two entries that were missing of quite significant dates, the
22 13th and 14th; is that correct? Of July, 1995, sorry.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, can you -- if you look at this and I know you're not a
25 handwriting expert and we've had some come through this courtroom, do you
1 know who was making the entries on the 12th of July and the 15th? Can
2 you tell just by looking at it if they signed it? I think in the column
3 on each page towards the right-hand side there might be a signature and
4 some entries which indicate who the author was.
5 A. Yes, it says Milan Maric on the 12th, and as for the 15th, I
6 think this is the signature of Drago Nikolic.
7 Q. And do you know who was supposed to maintain those records for
8 the 13th and 14th?
9 A. I said yesterday, Sreten Milosevic and Dragan Jokic were supposed
10 to do that.
11 Q. Forgive me because it was late last night --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Gosnell.
13 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry, Mr. President, could we have the B/C/S page
14 displayed on the screen, please.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we do that? Could you give us the reference?
16 MR. OSTOJIC: It's a little difficult because those pages are
17 missing, but he can reference the 12th of July, and then, I think, also
18 the 15th if they want to look at both; but in the English version it's
19 simply page 1 through 5 but on the B/C/S version, I think Mr. Pandurevic
20 would be able to assist us if he could just read out perhaps the ERN
21 number of the page on the 12th but before the 15th of July then we can
22 maybe get that up.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last three digits are 689.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, sir. I'm just waiting so it comes up so
25 everyone can catch up. Thank you.
1 Q. Now, sir, just so that I'm correct, this is a book that was kept
2 and maintained in the ordinary course of business at the Zvornik Brigade
3 command, correct, as opposed to the IKM?
4 A. This is a log book of the operations duty officer to be filled in
5 with the duty officer for a particular day. There are no missing pages
6 here, rather, there are no entries relating to the 12th, 13th and 14th.
7 Q. You're right about that. I misspoke because that other book had
8 missing pages but we'll get to that in a second. This one there are just
9 no entries for the 13th and 14th, you're right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But my question is this was kept at the forward command post;
13 A. No, this was kept in the cupboard of the duty operations officer
14 in the barracks.
15 Q. How far away was that from the forward command post?
16 A. About 20 kilometres.
17 Q. Also what's curious to me is the entry on the 16th. Did you find
18 it or was that one missing as well? I think it's missing actually so ...
19 A. Yes, it's missing. Nobody filled it in.
20 Q. Do you know why?
21 A. I don't know. Milorad Trbic was the duty operations officer and
22 why he failed to make any entries, I don't know.
23 Q. Same question for the 13th and 14th. Do you know why, since you
24 seem to recall that it was Jokic, and I forget who the other person that
25 you mentioned that was the duty officer for the 14th, why did they fail
1 to make any entries in this book for the 13th and 14th of July?
2 A. As I said yesterday, I can only speculate. I don't know the
3 reasons why.
4 Q. Who is Petko Pavlovic?
5 A. I'm not sure. He may have been someone from the MUP judging by
6 his last name, but I'm not sure if you can help me.
7 Q. I will. He was a guy who Colonel Dragomir Vasic wanted to
8 appoint in Srebrenica as the police chief for Srebrenica when they were
9 living with Miroslav Deronjic and others, but we'll get his document; how
10 about Nenad Simic, who was he?
11 A. Major Nenad Simic was in the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
12 Q. What command did he hold or which battalion or unit?
13 A. He was the assistant commander for moral guidance, religious and
14 legal affairs.
15 Q. For what period of time?
16 A. I cannot say exactly. He was definitely there in July and
17 sometime before that. A few people held this position but I think he was
18 the one who stayed longest.
19 Q. He stayed there in 1993 as well, didn't he?
20 A. I think that he came sometime in 1993. He was a refugee from
21 Central Bosnia
22 Q. Let's just quickly look at 7D454, please. This, sir, as it's
23 coming up is a document dated the 11th of November, 1993, that purports
24 to be signed by Captain First Class Nenad Simic assistant commander for
25 morale, guidance and religious affairs. I think if you see the date on
1 the top of the first page then if we could please move to the second page
2 where the signature is.
3 A. Yes, somebody signed this on behalf of Nenad Simic.
4 Q. So, I mean, it's really not a point of my question but you
5 recognise it's not his signature, right?
6 A. Yes, I see the word "for" added and this is also not his
8 Q. Thank you. Now my point is from 1993 November through July of
9 1993, was he your assistant commander in the Zvornik Brigade for moral
10 guidance, religious and legal affairs?
11 A. Yes, I think he was holding that position throughout the whole
13 Q. Help me understand this: When did you want or have a desire to
14 appoint Colonel Dragomir Vasic to be in that position?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. Did he ever hold that position, that is, Dragomir Vasic?
17 A. Never at the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
18 Q. At any other brigade or command?
19 A. I don't know about that.
20 Q. Because -- and I'm sorry I don't have the transcript, and I'm
21 going to be brief about this, and I appreciate the Court's indulgence as
22 well as my colleagues'. I thought yesterday you had mentioned
23 Dragomir Vasic being demobilised and that at one point he was in what
24 command or brigade before he was demobilised and went to the MUP; do you
1 A. He had been with the 6th Battalion but that battalion had a
2 different numerical designation at the time. I wanted to appoint him the
3 assistant for that battalion not the brigade.
4 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
5 Now, we've talked as we've seen in the last two and a half or
6 three years that there were quite a few people with the first name Ljubo
7 or a derivative of that name. Now we know that just from looking at some
8 of your testimony and the records here there was a Ljubo Bojanovic, that
9 we spent a little bit of time talking about yesterday, and I'm sure we'll
10 get back to him. Do you remember any other Ljubos in the Zvornik Brigade
11 in July of 1995?
12 A. At the moment, I cannot remember any other name in the command of
13 the Zvornik Brigade apart from Ljubo Bojanovic. Maybe it's best if we
14 looked at the list of the officers in the command so that we can be sure.
15 Q. We'll get through that. Who is Ljubo Bijatovic?
16 A. There was a man called Bejatovic. He was the commander of the
17 7th Battalion in July 1995 but I cannot remember his first name. I don't
18 think it was Ljubo. I think his first name was Drago.
19 Q. I did see a reference in one of the paperwork calling him Drago
20 as well. How about Ljubislav Strbac, do you remember him at all?
21 A. His name was Ljubisav Strbac, and we used to call him Strki.
22 Q. And what was his position in July of 1995 to the best of your
24 A. He was the assistant of the Chief of Staff for organisation,
25 mobilisation personnel affairs for a certain period of time. I think he
1 was attached to that organ at the time.
2 Q. How about one of the people on your witness list, Ljubo Eric,
3 what was he in July of 1995, you remember him, of course. He's one of
4 your witnesses; right?
5 A. I remember him. He was with the 2nd Romanija. He was the
6 commander of the combat group in Krivaja 95 operation.
7 Q. And what other position did he hold in July of 1995 other than he
8 was commander of a combat group in Krivaja 95. After or before that
9 operation, what was his title, if you will?
10 A. I really don't know. He was with the 2nd Romanija Brigade and I
11 don't know which positions he held as per establishment.
12 Q. What was the name of Obrenovic's driver again? Do you remember
13 his name or at least his first name?
14 A. Ljubisa Danojlovic.
15 Q. And who is Ljubo Dejanovic. Do you remember him at all?
16 A. This last name doesn't sound familiar to me, probably it was
17 mispronounced, therefore, I don't know.
18 Q. It happens a lot to me. It's actually in an entry I came across
19 it, but we'll talk about it a little later.
20 Any other Ljubos that you can think of other than these six or
21 seven that we've mentioned thus far because -- or a derivative of either
22 Ljubisa or Ljubislav or Ljubomir or any of those types that you could ...
23 A. Ljubo Beara, perhaps.
24 Q. Any others that you can remember?
25 A. Ljubo Sobot.
1 Q. And we talked about him. He is the food with the intercept that
2 earlier the Prosecution alleged that it was Ljubisa Beara that was on
3 that intercept and then later other evidence showed that it was actually
4 Ljubo Sobot, we believe, and dealing with Mladic and some food and what
5 not. So we talked about him in the trial.
6 Anyone else that you can come up with?
7 A. Ljubisa Simic, the president of the Bratunac municipality.
8 Q. That's a good point. He came here. Is he related in any way to
9 Nenad Simic, the guy who was your commander or assistant commander for
10 legal, religious and moral affairs?
11 A. I don't think so. I was not interested in those relations.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you for that.
13 Now, in sticking with P378, I believe, that you have in front of
14 you, I'd like to go over a couple entries that are actually made in the
15 book. We know we can't go over the 13th, 14th and 16th, but before I go
16 on to those entries, can you tell me why, after the 15th or I'm sorry the
17 17th of July -- strike that.
18 Why, sir, after the 18th of July, does the entire month get
19 skipped as well as August and then entries start to appear in September?
20 Do you have any reason or do you know why that would happen?
21 A. I can see August here.
22 Q. In my version we go from July 18th and you can help us with that
23 and all of a sudden the next entry is the 16th of the 9th month and then
24 below that the 17th of the 9th month and so on so ...
25 A. The 18th of July, the 19th of July, 21st, 23rd, 24th of July and
1 so on and so forth.
2 Q. If you look on the English version, it may be just a mistake it
3 just shows the 9th of the 16th and 17th, but thank you for that.
4 Let's turn to the 11th of July, 1995. The 11th of July, 1995
5 please, on Exhibit P378 if you could open it and take a look at it. We
6 do have that actual entry, so I'd like to ask you a couple questions
7 about that.
8 A. I'm sorry. I thought you were going to ask me something about
9 the 11th.
10 Q. I am, actually, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the book.
11 Now, focussing your attention on this page, and I think we're
12 going to try it get it up on B/C/S, and, Mr. Pandurevic, if you could
13 also just help me out by giving us the last three numbers --
14 A. 688, the last three digits are 688.
15 Q. Thank you very much. For the entry of the 11th of July, 1995
16 who made those entries, to the best of your understanding, looking at the
17 signature block, I guess.
18 A. I think that the entries on the 11th were made by
19 Ljubo Bojanovic.
20 Q. Okay. And if we could scroll down to the bottom of the page in
21 the English version, the entry of 2030 hours, do you see that?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Can you read it for us, please, the entry in that short block of
24 four lines?
25 A. Yes, I can:
1 "Chief ordered wake up call for all units at 0400 hours and the
2 commanders are to report at 0400 hours and brief about the situation in
3 the battalions."
4 Q. Who is the chief that Ljubo Bojanovic is referring to there?
5 A. Ljubo Bojanovic was probably referring to Dragan Obrenovic.
6 Q. He wasn't referring to you; right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Because you weren't there; right?
9 A. I wasn't.
10 Q. I'm just pointing it out because sometimes Ljubo Bojanovic can
11 make a mistake, and he would say instead of Chief of Staff he would put
12 the commander; and this might be a little misleading at least because it
13 may be indicative that you came back to Zvornik on the 11th of July and
14 then you asked for a wake up call, and you wanted these commanders to
15 report to a briefing in the battalions. I mean, without your testimony
16 we wouldn't know that this is really -- that it was Dragan Obrenovic that
17 he really means even though he's passed away, and we don't have his
18 testimony on that point; correct?
19 A. It's probably wrong translation. My name is not mentioned
20 anywhere here. Chief means Dragan Obrenovic and later on, when they say
21 commander, that refers to battalion commanders to be woken up and report
22 about the situation in the battalions. It was not any mistake on Ljubo's
23 part, I am not mentioned anywhere here.
24 Q. You were the chief of the Zvornik Brigade, were you not?
25 A. No, I was the commander. Nobody called me chief. I didn't like
1 that word at all. It's not a military term.
2 Q. If we look at the entry on the 12th of July made by a different
3 person, I think Milan Maric at 1310 hours, he's more explicit, and he
4 says at 1300 hours, the Chief of Staff had ordered certain things; do you
5 see that?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Ljubo Bojanovic could have written it on the 11th of July, Chief
8 of Staff, could he not?
9 A. Well, yes, but he used the word "chief" more often.
10 Q. Now just help me with this as we're scrolling down through this
11 document. It's here at the 12th of July, the entry at 1630 hours; do you
12 see that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Now, this talks about a military police platoon with the
15 Commander Jasikovac went to carry out the task; do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Who ordered this?
18 A. I don't know. I see that the Chief of Staff had ordered, so it
19 came from above. So this probably refers to this platoon as well.
20 Q. Okay. A couple more questions, if you don't mind, to clarify on
21 this document. And then if we can please look at the next page which is
22 the 15th of July, 1995. Because again as you remember the 13th and 14th
23 were not recorded. Okay.
24 Now, here there is an entry that I'd like to discuss with you at
25 1350 hours and I direct your attention to that.
1 A. Yes, I can see it.
2 Q. Basically I'm going to read it in English but you can read it for
3 us if you like. It says:
4 "Some elements of unit returned from Zepa, and they joined the
5 action of blocking and destroying the group of Turks."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Now, does it say anywhere there about your order or your mission
9 or your goal that Krstic gave you that we talked about yesterday at 1041
10 or 10.00 on the 15th of July to capture anybody? Does it reference that
11 at all in this entry?
12 A. You've simplified Krstic's order.
13 Q. Well, sir, let me just stop you for a second. I didn't simplify
14 it. You completely ignored it when you gave your direct evidence, so I'm
15 just now going to talk to you about specifically the things he shared
16 with you, so forgive me for telling you but I'm not simplified it. It's
17 in the order, you got it both orally and you got it in writing, so share
18 with me that?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ostojic, stop arguing the way you are and with
20 the tone you are with the witness, please.
21 MR. OSTOJIC:
22 Q. Can you answer, Mr. Pandurevic?
23 A. I can, Mr. Ostojic, I'm trying to provide brief answers
24 instructed by the Chamber, but your questions are three times longer than
25 my answers.
1 I don't dispute what Krstic ordered. I was quite clear about
2 that, but you're just focussing on some sort of arrest and detention. I
3 didn't arrest anyone, and I didn't take anyone in and you can't arrest a
5 Q. I don't even know what that means to be very honest with you,
6 Mr. Pandurevic, but I'm sure that your lawyer will clarify it on
7 re-direct or at any time.
8 I'm asking you this: Did Krstic give you an oral --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't be sure of that. If you're not clear about
10 it you can ask questions yourself. You have no guarantee that Mr. Haynes
11 will clear it up for you.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you for that, Mr. President, I appreciate
14 Q. Sir, did Krstic give you an order to block, destroy, and/or
15 capture the Muslims that were coming from Srebrenica?
16 A. He assigned me a task, and I was to block the penetration of the
17 28th Division and the joining up of that division with the forces of the
18 2nd Corps.
19 Q. And that was the extent of his order to you and your assignment;
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. He didn't mention anything about capturing anybody?
23 A. Well, in the course of the battle perhaps someone would have been
24 captured, that's what happened subsequently from the 28th onwards.
25 THE INTERPRETER: From the 18th, interpreter's correction. From
1 the 18th onwards.
2 MR. OSTOJIC:
3 Q. Mr. Pandurevic, maybe it was a poor translation or an unartful
4 question on my part. I'm not asking you what could have happened, I'm
5 asking you did Krstic verbally, orally and/or in writing tell you that
6 you should capture the Bosnian Muslims that are escaping from Srebrenica
7 and going through Zvornik? And this is a good chance where you could
8 just say yes or no.
9 A. The order had to do with that too, that they weren't prisoners
10 who had previously been brought to Zvornik, you want to link this up but
11 that's not what it's about. These people had already been arrested and
12 you know who did that, just as I do.
13 Q. Those people who were arrested and detained, do you know that the
14 civilian authorities were the ones who brought them from Bratunac to
15 Zvornik, and it was your military police, sir, from Zvornik Brigade who
16 brought them from Bratunac to Zvornik. Do you know that? Or are you
17 denying that as well?
18 A. I'm not denying that I heard about those matters, and I have
19 testified about them; but I don't know who brought those people to
20 Bratunac and then who organised a column and an escort and who took those
21 people to Zvornik, nor do I know why they chose to take them to Zvornik;
22 but I'm sure that there are people here who can be quite explicit about
23 what happened and provide you can clear statements.
24 Q. Did you ever talk to one of your buddies, Colonel Dragomir Vasic,
25 as to what he thought his role was because I know you spent an awful lot
1 of time talking about parallel events, and let's look at where
2 Mr. Pandurevic was and then let's look at a log book that may support it.
3 What about the MUP documents? Did you look parallel to that or
4 even ask Dragomir Vasic what he knew about the prisoners in 1995? Did
5 you do that at all?
6 A. Vasic and I are not friends, not in the way that you think. I
7 didn't have any MUP documents, and I didn't examine them. I didn't speak
8 to Vasic about his activities during that period of time. I heard about
9 all this parallel events as we've been calling them on the basis of a
10 report on Dragan Obrenovic and on the basis of documents from the Zvornik
12 Q. Right. But wait a second, you did talk to him during that period
13 because you even told us that you met with him on the 15th of July when
14 you came from the Srebrenica general area, if I can call it that, back to
15 the -- to the command post in Zvornik, he was actually in Obrenovic's
16 office and you ran into him there. So you did see him at least on the
17 15th; right?
18 A. Well, I saw him. I knew that tasks were to control the territory
19 and to provide security for Serbian villages. I assumed that that's what
20 they did and he did, in fact, do that.
21 Q. How do you know if you never talked to him that he did, in fact,
22 do that? Did you talk to him or didn't you talk to him?
23 A. Well that was his task, his regular task. He must have done it
24 and I could see from the documents from his reports it's stated where his
25 units were engaged, where they had been deployed.
1 Q. Okay. Do you know what his assignment was on July 13th through
2 15th, 1995?
3 A. I know on the basis of the documents that we can see now here or,
4 rather, the documents that I saw in the course of these proceedings.
5 Q. What was it? What was his assignment?
6 A. As far as I can remember, you've referred to his documents most
7 frequently had to do with providing security for roads, for direct access
8 routes to the town of Zvornik
9 up checkpoints and so on and so forth.
10 Q. What about one of the documents on the 15th where he says killing
11 8.000 Bosnian Muslims; do you remember that at all or did that kind of
13 A. I don't think it was on the 15th. I think that document was
14 dated the 13th.
15 Q. If you really look at my question, that's why I said from the
16 13th to the 15th, do you know what his assignment was? Who gave him the
17 assignment to kill Bosnian Muslims?
18 A. I don't know whether anyone gave him such an assignment, nor do I
19 know whether he killed those Muslims; but I remember an intercept where
20 one co-accused said these people from the MUP don't want to do anything.
21 I don't know what he had in mind. And Vasic in those reports emphasised
22 the role that the MUP played, and he emphasised his own role as if he was
23 the only player in the field and no one else.
24 Q. Okay. Now when you say player in the field, I just want to make
25 sure I don't step all over your unique distinction between zone of
1 defence and zone of responsibility. What field are you talking about,
2 sir? Is it in the field of the zone of defence that you've shared with
3 us or is it the broader area of the zone of responsibility that the
4 Prosecution claims that the Zvornik Brigade had, which field?
5 A. The zone of defence of the Zvornik Brigade was the one we saw on
6 the map and it's where the soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade were deployed.
7 All other territory outside that area which is inhabited by people who
8 are involved in their daily activities, well for the control and order of
9 that territory, there was just the MUP, that was their responsibility if
10 enemy forces appeared in the area, if there were infiltrated and if they
11 engaged in combat then the brigade would be activated to prevent such
12 events from occurring.
13 Q. Did Miroslav Deronjic ever come to the Zvornik Brigade in
14 July of 1993?
15 A. 1993?
16 Q. I'm sorry. Thank you. 1995.
17 A. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't see him.
18 Q. Well we'll go into an entry which has his name in one of your
19 duty officers' books on the 17th or 18th of July in a few minutes here.
20 Do you know that in July of 1995, President Karadzic appointed
21 him to be some commissioner for Srebrenica? Are you familiar with that?
22 A. The first part that you mentioned I remember. In the log book
23 for the 17th, it said that Miroslav Deronjic wanted me to release some
24 communications officers to the command or the Chief of Staff for
25 something to do with the PTT or communications. I can't remember
1 receiving that note. I don't remember, or I didn't know what position he
2 held at the time that he had been appointed to be civilian commissioner
3 by the president.
4 Q. Okay. And we all know, but just to make sure that you know, you
5 know that Miroslav Deronjic came from Bratunac; correct?
6 A. I know that he lived in Bratunac. He was probably born somewhere
7 around there.
8 Q. You told us about a meeting that you had with Krstic, and I think
9 you even said Mladic in Bratunac in July of 1995. Was Deronjic at that
10 meeting as well?
11 A. On the 11th, at that meeting of the command of the Bratunac
12 Brigade, well at that meeting, only soldiers were present.
13 Q. And just to the best of your recollection, I know it's been a few
14 years, but do you know approximately what time that meeting was on the
15 11th of July?
16 A. Well, that's a well-known historical fact now, it was around 2200
18 Q. Let's look at Exhibit 1D690, please. If we can also have the
19 B/C/S version or -- looks like we don't have a B/C/S version but we can
20 all read on paragraph number 4, and I'll read it out loud so you can get
21 the full thing. This looks like it's a decision from
22 Dr. Radovan Karadzic dated the 11th of July, 1995, and really I wanted to
23 ask you about -- I mean we can talk about any portion of it, but I want
24 to highlight paragraph 4, if you don't mind because it says, paragraph 4
1 "The commissioner shall ensure that all civilian and military
2 organs treat all citizens who participated in combat against the Army of
3 Republika Srpska as prisoners of war, and ensure that the civilian
4 population can freely choose where they will live or move to."
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Was there any discussion in that meeting on the 11th of July,
8 1995, about Miroslav Deronjic and him being in charge of the prisoners of
10 A. As far as I can remember, no. I don't know when this decision
11 from the president arrived, at what time of day, and I can't see that he
12 was directly responsible for the prisoners here. The military
13 authorities and the civilian authorities had to take joint care of the
14 prisoners and other civilians who wanted to stay or leave.
15 Q. We'll take a look at --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. Ostojic.
17 Mr. Haynes.
18 MR. HAYNES: Can those who don't speak English see the whole of
19 the document on the screen, please. It's not really fair to any of them,
20 including the witness.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I fully agree.
22 MR. HAYNES: [Overlapping speakers] ... there must be B/C/S, it is
23 originally in B/C/S.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's around, we can get it relatively easily.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's see if we can get it.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I can move away from this and come back to this
2 exhibit for now.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Let's look at the intercept between Karadzic and
5 Deronjic which is P1149, and I think it's A and then the B/C/S version is
7 Q. I think, Mr. Pandurevic, you may recall this exhibit since you
8 were here during the trial. It purports to be a intercept between
9 Deronjic and an intermediary who's talking to Karadzic, and apparently
10 Karadzic is transferring some information between this intermediary and
11 Deronjic; and it's at 2010 hours, 2010, and when it comes up I'll give
12 you a chance to look at it.
13 A. I remember this conversation.
14 Q. Just so that the record is clear, Mr. Pandurevic, and to be fair
15 to you, you remember this because you saw it during the trial while you
16 were here; right? You don't have an independent information about this
17 conversation; I'm correct about that, right? Or do you?
18 A. That's quite understandable. How could I have been aware of it
19 at the time.
20 Q. Sometimes the record is awkward, and it says some things we don't
21 necessarily mean.
22 Now here in this conversation that we discussed at this court
23 briefly, it's a conversation between, as I mentioned, Deronjic and
24 Karadzic and his intermediary; and as you can recall and as you can read
25 here it's Deronjic and Karadzic who are talking about approximately
1 thousands but 2.000 Bosnian Muslims who are moving through an area and
2 then they are discussing where they should be maintained or held.
3 In the last couple entries where they have X and D for Deronjic
4 and X presumably for the intermediary, it says not to put them in the
5 warehouses but to put them somewhere else. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes, I can read out this passage as to what conclusions one draws
7 on the basis of the passage, well, that's a matter for each individual.
8 Q. Okay. Now, do you know where these prisoners, the 2.000 or so, I
9 guess in the middle of it says about two for the time being after he was
10 asked how many thousands, so let's just go with the 2.000 for now. Do
11 you know where these prisoners are at this time?
12 A. No. I didn't know, I didn't even know that they existed at the
13 time of this conversation.
14 Q. Okay. Do you know why Karadzic wants the prisoners or Deronjic
15 wants the prisoners moved from wherever they were?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Well, we know, at least historically, from some facts in this
18 case that in Bratunac, there were some that were detained and as you
19 yourself say, although I know your position clearly, it's not your
20 position because it's outside the zone of defence, that there were some
21 prisoners transferred over to Zvornik, are these the guys? Because look
22 at the time frame, it's the 13th; and I know you're not involved in this,
23 sir, but I just wanted to see if you could maybe help us understand this
24 because you asked me earlier today, Well we know who transferred the
25 prisoners and how they were transferred. I'm trying to help that issue
1 out -- I know I'm going fast. I'm sorry.
2 So here we have the 13th at 2010 hours, a conversation that was
3 captured between Deronjic and Karadzic through his intermediary and they
4 are talking about 2.000 prisoners, and they are saying we got to put them
5 somewhere and we've got to move them to some warehouse or put them
6 somewhere else, could this possibly you think even remotely be the 2.000
7 that were ultimately transferred to Zvornik in the next day or so or that
9 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already told you at the time he didn't even
10 know about their existence, how can you expect him to tell you that
11 ultimately these were the 2.000 that were sent to the Zvornik area.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: He can just tell me if he doesn't know.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: But you shouldn't ask the question. I don't think
14 it's for him to tell you, to face you with this.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Let me try it another way. Thank you. I'll move
17 Q. Do you know where these 2.000 men ultimately ended up that
18 Deronjic and Karadzic and his intermediary are talking about, even after
19 the fact, did you ever find out what happened to these men?
20 A. I don't know anything specific about these 2.000 whether they are
21 included in the number of people who were brought to the territory of
22 Zvornik. But I can clarify something else, Deronjic received that
23 information about the presence of 2.000 prisoners, but I don't know from
24 whom so there was someone else. In addition to Deronjic, who was aware
25 of this because Deronjic didn't go into the field to see how many people
1 had been arrested, I don't know why he is addressing the president, why
2 he didn't address Mladic at the same time with regard to the same issue.
3 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Deronjic before you were indicted in
4 this case about the events that unfolded in Srebrenica?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Deronjic when he was detained here at
7 the UNDU before he passed away?
8 A. Perhaps I saw him on two occasions when we played sports
9 together, but I never discussed the events in Srebrenica with him.
10 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, because I want to change gears
11 although talking about these civilians. There was a lot spent about this
13 heard a lot of testimony about it through various experts, et cetera.
14 Now, when you said and when your Zvornik Brigade whether it was
15 under your command or not when they were conducting these ambushes, did
16 they attain any level of success? Do you know if they actually killed or
17 as you say destroyed the enemy at any time in those early days of July
18 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, even?
19 A. To a certain extent but I don't know how successful they were.
20 Q. I know in some of your combat -- interim combat reports and
21 combat reports it does discuss that there were huge losses or enormous
22 losses and all that, and I'm not going to go into that right now. I want
23 to know generally speaking when those people are shot and killed, and
24 even Butler
25 he had no problem if you are in a fight like that, in the unfortunate
1 event of war, but where were those people ultimately buried; do you know?
2 A. I agree with you that there were quite a lot of people who were
3 killed when breaking through from Srebrenica to Tuzla, many of them
4 remained in the forests, and that's where they were killed, as far as I
5 have understood. Some of the bodies that remain there were gathered and
6 collected and buried, but I don't have precise information about this.
7 Perhaps some of those bodies are still there in those forests.
8 Q. But who would, if you don't, sir, as the command of the
9 Zvornik Brigade, who at that time would have had that best information
10 for us so he could help me with that?
11 A. Well, it's difficult for me to help you. If someone was killed
12 in Ravne Polje, Kamenica Crska, Udrc, Velja Glava, Snagovo in Baljkovica,
13 we would then search the field and all the bodies found in the territory
14 of Baljkovica were buried in the territory of Motovska Koso.
15 Q. I'm aware you still have P378. If we could just go back to that
16 entry of July 11th, 1995
18 This is an entry that and again you corrected me, and thank you
19 for that, that I thought when I read it initially years or months ago
20 that at 2030 hours when it said chief ordered wake up call, I thought
21 they were referring to you, and that you were present at the Zvornik
22 Brigade, and you told us you weren't and I accept that.
23 Help me reconcile this because we also want to look at
24 Exhibit P322 which is a regular combat report dated July 12, 1995, and
25 you covered it a little bit on your direct. And it seems to be with a
1 block signature with your name on it, but you weren't there. So just
2 when we get that up, and I want to make sure that you look at it so I'm
4 I'm sorry, if you could wait there so we could make sure that
5 Mr. Pandurevic has the date. Sir, are you following me? We're looking
6 at Exhibit P378, the late July 11th entry which says:
7 "Chief ordered a wake-up call at 4.00 and that the commanders are
8 to report in order to get a brief of the situation."
9 And then we are looking at the next day of the regular combat
10 report dated July 12th, 1995
11 report, but just if we can look at the second page which I believe has
12 your block or third page -- forgive me, no, I was right the first time,
13 the second page. Yes they put it up on B/C/S, I'm waiting for the
14 English, sorry about that.
15 Do you see that, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And just reconcile it because if I look at these two documents
18 because I was in error before, and I just want to make sure the court
19 doesn't see it incorrectly either. Although it says chief in this P378
20 that I was an order for commanders to come there and despite the fact
21 that we have this other document that has your printed block on it, it
22 has nothing to do with you, you weren't there at all; correct?
23 A. I wasn't there, and there was the duty officers who inscribed the
24 name of the chief, someone inscribed my name and this shows that one
25 didn't know the rules. Those who weren't professionals -- well because
1 someone wasn't professional someone might be held criminally responsible.
2 Now I should have said deputy commander here. And Dragan Obrenovic, in
3 the 14th in his report, it says the Chief of Staff, the Major,
4 Dragan Obrenovic.
5 Q. I did look at the 14th and I also looked at the 13th. That
6 report has again your name on it even though you weren't there on the
7 12th or the 13th of July; correct? And we can go if you'd like really
8 quickly we don't even have to go that quickly, 325, P325, please.
9 Mr. Pandurevic, I don't take issue with you not being there and I
10 just know that sometimes what's written is a mistake, and that's why we'd
11 just like to clarify it; and I think there is quite a few mistakes but
12 we'll talk about that probably later.
13 So let's look at P325. Here also is yet another example -- I'm
14 sorry, and then if we could have the next page with the signature block
15 and this is a daily combat report.
16 A. Yes, it's the same thing. We had some reports where the name of
17 the operations officer, operations duty officer and the commander were
18 signed, but when they were there and when they weren't; so these people
19 were acting automatically. It was through inertia that it was done in
20 this way, and they didn't understand military rules.
21 Q. Now since we have P325 there, who was -- who wrote this report or
22 who sent it out with your name block on it? Which was the individual?
23 A. If this is the 13th of July, SM, that could be Sreten Milosevic.
24 Q. How about the one before that on P322, which is the July 12th
25 regular combat report?
1 A. I haven't got it.
2 Q. They'll bring it up. It just takes a little time sometimes.
3 P322, I'm sorry.
4 A. Can I see page 2 in the Serbian, please. I think that this MM
5 stands for Milan Maric, but it's not very clear.
6 Q. Okay. But are those Sreten Milosevic and Milan Maric, although
7 it's not clear, were they reliable type of soldiers in your
8 Zvornik Brigade at that time in July of 1995?
9 A. They were as they were. Those were reserve officers,
10 Sreten Milosevic was assistant for logistics, he was an economist. He
11 was familiar, quite familiar with the job whereas on the other hand, he
12 wasn't so familiar with military rules and regulations.
13 Maric finished the faculty for All People's Defence, so,
14 therefore, he was not involved in the procedures and things that we
15 professional military personnel were skilled and trained for.
16 Q. Now let me go to the July 16th, 1995 day and the issues that you
17 talked a little bit about.
18 On July 16th, 1995
19 about vehicles from Banja Luka coming and going to the school in
20 Orahovac? Did he tell you anything about that?
21 A. I cannot remember any specific contact with him at the moment,
22 but I think there is a note in the work log that Ljubo reported that a
23 truck came from the 16th Krajina Company and that he was to send it to
24 Orahovac, if that's what you are referring to.
25 Q. That is what I'm referring to. How about Obrenovic, did he on
1 the 16th of July, 1995, tell you or ask you about the men who came from
2 Bratunac who were in Orahovac and asking you for instructions as to what
3 to do with those men? Did you ever have that discussion with Obrenovic
4 on July 16th, 1995
5 A. As far as I can remember, I sent Obrenovic to meet this company
6 from the 16th Krajina Corps to give them the task. It might happen that
7 in the meantime, soldiers from the Bratunac Brigade turn up as well and
8 Obrenovic asked me what to do with them.
9 Q. Okay. Well let's take a look at Exhibit 377, which again, is one
10 of those duty officer notebooks or log books; and if we can, with the
11 Court's permission, the usher's assistance have the Prosecutor give
12 Mr. Pandurevic the original and again it's 377.
13 Sir, I'm going to direct your attention ERN 0293-5771, so the
14 last four numbers are 5771.
15 A. Yes, I can see that page.
16 Q. And let me just help here and get caught up myself. We have, if
17 the Court remembers, the English translation which was, I think, made
18 with certain markings on the side, yes, I know you have it, I just want
19 to make sure, which were actually later added to identify who individuals
21 I'm looking at the entry with the ERN on the bottom 5769, and in
22 the middle of that entry, it says:
23 "Men from Bratunac are in Orahovac. Obrenovic asked the
24 commander what to do with them at 1920 hours."
25 Did you see that, sir?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Now, did Obrenovic ask you -- I mean he's talking about the
3 commander, would that be you on the 16th of July, 1995?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And so although little slightly different I'm not going to
6 question what -- from what you told us just moments ago regarding this
7 issue, it was Obrenovic who asked you and told you about these men from
8 Bratunac, did he not?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was he asking? What do you mean by or what did he mean by
11 "what to do with them"?
12 A. I don't remember details but probably he referred whether they
13 should be joined with the men from Krajina or should they be sent to
14 another axis, I'm not sure. I think that later on they joined the
15 battalion in the area of Crni Vrh.
16 Q. At the time at 1920 hours on July 16th, 1995, did you ask
17 Obrenovic what the men from Bratunac were doing in Orahovac?
18 A. I didn't ask Obrenovic about what they were doing there. I think
19 there is also a note about the time when they arrived. What I knew was
20 that the soldiers from Krajina were arriving, and Obrenovic was sent
21 there to receive them. So at that time, he must have also come across
22 the soldiers from the Bratunac Brigade; and, therefore, he asked me what
23 to do with them.
24 Q. So he didn't tell you anything that these men were Bratunac were
25 in Orahovac because they were involved in any executions or detention of
1 POWs, did he?
2 A. These men didn't take part in the executions. These men came to
3 assist, and they were deployed on the road at Crni Vrh.
4 Q. Now, if we look at the next page or two in English, it's actually
5 on the lower portion same date, 16th July, last four numbers 5771 with
6 ERN, and it starts, sir, with 2210 hours, the entry there, the fifth line
7 down. After there is a brief discussion with Pilica, do you see Pilica,
8 at 0800 hours. Maybe I can ...
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now that entry, the first one here:
11 "At 2210 hours," it goes on to say they are talking about a
12 loader and excavator and a dump truck, and it should be going to Pilica
13 at 8.00; do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Now, this says that it was conveyed to Jokic and Milosevic; and I
16 think those are Dragan Jokic and Sreten Milosevic; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now these are two individuals that you had talked to on the
19 16th of July -- well --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I almost said 15th, and we wouldn't want to mess up the record.
22 You didn't talk to him on the 15th, but you talked to him on the
23 16th of July, 1995. Did they share with you that they were sending these
24 excavators and loaders and dump trucks to Pilica when you talked to him
25 on the 16th of July, 1995?
1 A. Where did you acquire this information that I talked to them on
2 the 16th?
3 Q. Okay. I thought you said yes and then that's why I -- did you
4 ever talk to him on the 16th of July, 1995?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you talk to them on the 15th of July, 1995?
7 A. I talked to them. We saw the intercept, and that's all.
8 Q. How about on the 17th of July, 1995?
9 A. I spoke to Jokic on the 18th relating the engagement of
10 engineering machinery, and he said that Trbic had told him that a machine
11 should be sent to Pilica or rather Branjevo, as it says here.
12 Q. Did you ever talk to Sreten Milosevic about that?
13 A. No. The information I received from Jokic was sufficient for me.
14 Q. On the 16th of July 1995, you had no knowledge of this activity
15 by -- which was conveyed to you by Jokic and Milosevic; is that what
16 you're saying? You only found that out on the 18th; correct?
17 A. I heard that from Jokic, that is about the machinery being
18 engaged, but he told me earlier that the machines were already engaged on
19 the 14th.
20 Q. But it looks from this note that they were engaged on what date,
22 A. It says here in the morning at 8.00 in Pilica, so if this entry
23 is at 2210, that would mean the next day, and I can only speculate why
24 this request was made.
25 Q. I know, maybe we misunderstood each other, but the entry in this
1 request was actual made on the 16th, and these excavators and loaders
2 were sent on the next day being the 17th of July; correct?
3 A. That's what I said.
4 Q. Now let's go to the next entry there, which is the one I really
5 wanted to talk to you about, and that's Ljubo Bojanovic's entry. Did you
6 talk to Ljubo Bojanovic at all on the 16th of July, 1995, when you were
7 either at the IKM or at the -- wherever your observation post or wherever
8 you were on the 16th? Did you talk to him at all?
9 A. I don't remember all these communications with everyone; however,
10 this note indicates that from either the IKM or the Orahovac, Ljubo is
11 telling the duty operations officer where to send the company station
12 which shows -- only goes to show that Ljubo was in the field.
13 Q. Okay. I'm not really that interested in Ljubo being in the
14 field, but it's really the vehicle from the Banja Luka company station,
15 that's what he's talking about; right? And Ljubo is reporting that the
16 vehicles should go where? Where should this vehicle go?
17 A. This company had arrived earlier, and it was in the area of
18 Orahovac. It was received by Dragan Obrenovic. Ljubo Bojanovic was
19 probably involved in that too. A company station is a vehicle that was
20 late, they didn't know its whereabouts, so it was said as soon as it
21 arrived in Zvornik it should be sent to Orahovac and be linked up there
22 with the company.
23 Q. But in the English translation, it actually says that the school
24 in Orahovac, it does not say that in B/C/S, sir?
25 A. Yes, yes, it says the school in Orahovac.
1 Q. I just wanted to make sure because you didn't mention it.
2 Now, was that part of the Zvornik Brigade's zone of defence or
3 zone of responsibility that one of your guys, Ljubo Bojanovic is sending
4 a vehicle from the Banja Luka company station to Orahovac, but
5 particularly in Orahovac to this one school in Orahovac on the
6 16th of July, 1995? Whose zone is that?
7 A. A vehicle cannot enter school buildings, but units can be
8 deployed in the territory while waiting to be engaged in combat. They
9 can march along the road. If this company was travelling from Bijeljina
10 to Zvornik, it just passed through that, and it stayed for a while and in
11 Orahovac and later on went on to search the terrain.
12 Q. Okay. I'm not talking about physically going into the school but
13 the vehicle was going, I guess, so it's easier for you to understand,
14 near the school or at the school or around the school in Orahovac; but in
15 any event, what I'm curious to know is did Ljubo Bojanovic since you had
16 some conversations with him at this critical time period when you
17 returned to the forward command post, did he discuss this with you?
18 Because at one point I recall you saying that Ljubo said he saw some
19 buses and -- with people in it, but they just kind of passed. He didn't
20 know they were going to Orahovac or anywhere else for that matter much
21 less in the school or near the school. Did he share this with you on
22 July 16th, 1995
23 2200 hours and 2330 hours, I'm just looking at the two dates. I don't
24 really know what time it was but ...
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down.
1 A. You are mixes up the dates in two different situations. Ljubo
2 mentioned to me --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Pandurevic equally,
4 you are creating a few problems for the interpreters, particularly the
5 French booth, so please slow down both of you. Thank you.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Sorry about that. Okay.
7 Q. Mr. Pandurevic -- sorry, and I will give you a chance to answer.
8 I know you were in the middle of it, but just so that we are clear on the
9 record, you were going to explain to me that I'm mixing up the dates.
10 When did you talk to Ljubo Bojanovic when you returned back from the
11 Srebrenica area from the Zvornik Brigade command and/or IKM, when?
12 A. I spoke to him on the afternoon of the 15th when he came to the
13 IKM after a conversation with Brano Grujic.
14 Q. And did you talk to him, sir, ever again after that, meaning --
15 sorry -- strike that.
16 Let me ask you this, did you talk to him on the 16th of July,
18 A. No, I didn't discuss this topic with him.
19 Q. I'm not asking if you discussed this topic. Did you talk to
20 Ljubo Bojanovic at all on the 16th of July, 1995?
21 A. Mr. Ostojic, these are somewhat impossible requests put to me to
22 recall each and every single communication with each and every
23 individual. I may have probably issued some task to Ljubo Bojanovic. I
24 know that on the 16th and 17th he was searching the ground. I probably
25 gave him a task on the evening of the 16th, or it could have been Dragan
1 Obrenovic who did that.
2 Q. Okay. Sir, if you don't remember, just tell us you don't have a
3 recollection of that. How about on the 17th, do you remember discussing
4 with Ljubo Bojanovic this topic or let's just even broaden it, the topic
5 of POWs on the 17th of July, 1995?
6 A. I don't think I ever discussed this subject with him.
7 Q. Help me understand why not. If he told you that he saw the buses
8 of POWs going through, and then later you have information that these
9 people were executed, why didn't you come up to him and say, Ljubo, as
10 your commander, what happened? You told me they went through Zvornik.
11 Did you ever have that discussion with him?
12 A. Ljubo told me what he purportedly knew, and that was not nearly
13 enough to provide any detail; and, therefore, I didn't ask him anything
14 else about this subject because in the meantime, I had received
15 information from Dragan Obrenovic. I also --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't understand the last
17 part of the answer.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Ostojic.
19 Mr. Pandurevic, the interpreters didn't catch the last part of
20 your answer. If you look at the screen, it stops after, "I had received
21 information from Dragan Obrenovic." Then you said something else, if you
22 could repeat it, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Since
24 Mr. Ostojic is insisting on the name Ljubo, I just added that I didn't
25 talk to any Ljubo at all.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Shall we have the break, Mr. Ostojic?
2 MR. OSTOJIC: If you -- yeah, whatever you'd like, Mr. President,
3 of course.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You are very gentle. Let's have a 25-minute break.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President. Just before we begin, a
9 couple of housekeeping matters. On page 19, line 16, it was brought to
10 my attention to the date was placed, and we were discussing I think the
11 decision by Karadzic, it was mentioned as it being the 19th, but it
12 should be the 11th, I think, that's what it says. And then also when we
13 were discussing with Mr. Pandurevic Exhibit 1D690, we didn't have the
14 B/C/S translation, that exhibit is also in evidence as P10, so if we can
15 just bring that up now as well with the B/C/S just to give him an
16 opportunity to take a look at it.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, let's start with that. The correction
18 of the date will be looked into, looked after, in due course. Did we get
19 the numbers, Madam Registrar.
20 MR. OSTOJIC:
21 Q. So it's P10 that we are looking at, Mr. Pandurevic, and I
22 apologise for not having that in B/C/S for you earlier. I think I was
23 focussing on paragraph number 4, can you read that for us, please?
24 A. Yes, I can:
25 " The commissioner shall ensure that the civilian and military
1 organs treat all citizens who participated in combat against the Army of
2 Republika Srpska as prisoners of war, and ensure that the civilian
3 population can freely choose where they will live or move to."
4 Q. I know - thank you - during the direct, you asked questions about
5 the word "bezbednost" or "obezbeditie" as we see it in paragraph 4, what
6 does that mean?
7 A. In this context or in this sentence, grammatically one can say
8 that they will undertake measures and do so and so as it goes on.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you, we don't need that exhibit for now.
10 I think I mentioned it, but it's dated the 11th of July, 1995
11 you see on the bottom; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Because I think I misspoke earlier, so I wanted to make sure that
14 it's clear.
15 Now let's take a look at a couple of exhibits or intercepts,
16 actually and if we could have P1102 on the screen for you, sir. And just
17 so the record is clear, I think it's either A in English or there is a
18 different version with the letter D, Delta, in English, same number,
19 P1102. I don't necessarily -- I don't know that it matters which one but
20 just so the Court's aware of it, there's two exhibits. And,
21 Mr. Pandurevic, for you we would use P1102B which is the B/C/S version
22 and I just want to be careful that there is no name on it, so I would
23 probably ask that it not be broadcast but I think it can be -- or it
24 could not be so we should not broadcast it?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm told it is under seal, so no broadcast and also
1 use your discretion on what to mention and what not to mention in public
2 session, otherwise we'll go into private session.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Sir, this is an intercept that was apparently captured on the
5 12th of July, 1995 at 7.40 in the morning. It involves Obrenovic; do you
6 see that?
7 A. It says here that one of the speakers allegedly is Obrenovic, but
8 as I see it, it was not Obrenovic who took part in this conversation.
9 Q. And help us with that because it does say Obrenovic, you're
10 correct. Who took part in this conversation?
11 A. Look, the caller, the one who called Obrenovic's number, the
12 telephone rings, and he is expecting Obrenovic to answer it. Someone
13 else picked up and says "hello." The caller says, "Obrenovic who?" Not
14 Obrenovic, this is a form of addressing the person by the name whereas
15 there is no response because obviously the one who answered was not
16 Obrenovic, but he didn't state his name, therefore, no record of it; and
17 then the question is: "Where is your commander?" And the conversation
18 then proceeds as we see it here.
19 Q. And the response to "Where is your commander?" Who are they
20 referring to? He asked for Obrenovic, then he asked for the commander
21 was he asking for you then? And it's the 12th of July. I know you
22 weren't there but the answer is, "As far as I know, he's here."
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, Mr. Ostojic.
24 Mr. Haynes.
25 MR. HAYNES: I'm going to make an inquiry as to the relevance of
1 this. Throughout the course of the morning, Mr. Ostojic has prefaced
2 questions about the reports of the 12th and 13th of July and entries in
3 the duty officers' notebook by saying, Of course I accept you were not
4 there. Does he or doesn't he? When I says I accept you were not there.
5 Is that a genuine expression or are these wholly disingenuous questions
6 because if he doesn't accept that he shouldn't preface all his questions
7 in that way, and it seems to me this is a line of examination that goes
8 quite contrary to all the acceptances that he's placed on the record this
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Ostojic?
11 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, it is very genuine, and if he says he wasn't
12 there; but I think the record shows perhaps other things, and it will
13 help us because there are instances in the record that certain people
14 mention our client; and yet if his position is that people -- and there
15 are entries indicating his presence different from his testimony, it
16 should apply to all of us, but it is genuine. I'm not being disingenuous
17 at all with the witness. If he tells us he wasn't there at the 12th,
18 that's his position. But if it bothers him that I preface it with that,
19 I won't preface it with that at all.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes, do you wish to comment further?
21 MR. HAYNES: No, if he accepts he wasn't there this morning,
22 that's fine.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Again reading, Mr. Ostojic, from what he said and
24 what we have in the transcript, I'm not sure that he does accept it.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: If he says it, I'm accept it, but it's not my
1 burden of proof. It's really a question that should be directed towards
2 the Prosecution whether they accept it or not. I accept what
3 Mr. Pandurevic says, if he says he wasn't there. But I don't know why
4 it's directed at me but if I can proceed and then --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Well then let's proceed.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
7 Q. Now here, sir, just so we get it clear because there is some
8 entries with these intercepts that we were confused, and there's certain
9 things that the Prosecution says they mean and -- so here it says: "As
10 far as I know, he's here." This person asked for the commander. Were
11 they talking about Obrenovic at that time, July 12th, 1995, or were they
12 talking about you and the response saying: "The commander is here."
13 What does that mean?
14 A. The other participant in the conversation, I don't know his
15 identity, he may have been referring to Obrenovic when he asked where is
16 the commander. It might have been someone from the corps command,
17 Zivanovic. The corps commander knew exactly where I was, and he wouldn't
18 be looking for me in Zvornik on the 12th.
19 Q. I'm glad you clarified that. Now let's look at another exhibit,
20 P1103. Just so we have the date this is also July 12th, 1995, at 0755
21 hours. Let me know, Mr. Pandurevic, when you've had an opportunity to
22 look at the document.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: This is also under seal, Mr. Ostojic.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. Please don't broadcast it. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is there a printed version of this?
1 MR. OSTOJIC: I think there is, but I don't have it in my
3 Q. All I want to do is focus your attention, it says here:
4 "General, I spoke with Mane. Do you know who the reference to Mane is?
5 A. Probably Mane Djuric, Vasic's deputy.
6 Q. Just so the record is clear with respect to this exhibit, P1103
7 it's the 12th of July, 1995, and as I said 0755 hours. The next line
8 right after that it says he left his hotel, et cetera, one of his
9 companies is up there with our bulldozer man there in Konjevic Polje; do
10 you see that entry?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know anything about Vasic's man, Mane Djuric, and what he
13 was doing with a bulldozer man on the 12th of July, 1995?
14 A. Mr. Ostojic, I really have to clarify this. You have interpreted
15 this as if it's the first time you've seen this conversation. Mane
16 didn't do anything with bulldozers. This participant told the general
17 that there's a company of Manes in Konjevic Polje up there with that man
18 of ours with the bulldozers. So it's the engineering battalion from the
20 Q. I don't want really to belabour the point, but here X is saying
21 he left the hotel and is on his way home, who do you think he's referring
22 to if he says, Hello, General, I've spoken to Mane. The next entry is
23 good. Then the witness or the person who said, I spoken to Mane, he says
24 he left the hotel and is on his way home. Do you he's talking about
25 someone other than Mane?
1 A. Well, you know that they are talking about Mane. We're wasting
2 time for no purpose.
3 Q. No, we're not. And then he goes on to say that he'll call you
4 from there to update you, and it says one of his companies is up there
5 with the bulldozer man; so I just don't know really your explanation
6 doesn't really fit with the plain reading of this. If he says one of his
7 companies, and he's talking about him and he, was he talking about Mane
8 the whole time or someone else?
9 A. Well, I have to read out the first three paragraphs to put things
10 into context.
11 "Hello, General. You've spoken with Mane.
12 X tells the general that he's spoken to Mane. Y or the general
13 says: "Good."
14 It continues with what he had to say about Mane, and he says the
16 "He left the hotel and is on his way home. He'll call you from
17 there to update you." So he's going to call the general to inform him
18 about everything and the person speaking with the general then continues.
19 "One of his companies is up there with that man of ours with the
20 bulldozers." He's trying to refer to the 5th Engineering Battalion and
21 he again says, "here in Konjevic Polje," so we're talk being Mane.
22 Q. Okay that's what I thought. I misunderstood you then I
23 apologise. Then let's go to the next exhibit, P1126, please. This is
24 kind of an interesting exhibit. It's dated, I think, the 13th of July,
25 and it's at -- so again P1126, and we do have the printed version of this
1 and please, we shouldn't broadcast it because there are initials and
2 names on the printed version in B/C/S. I think it's actually on the
3 B/C/S the last page of this document. I don't have that actually written
4 as A, B, C or D, but I can -- we can put it on the ELMO possibly.
5 If you go to the next page, the entry is at 0910 hours, so 9.10
6 in the morning. So with the Court's permission and the usher to assist
7 us, to put this briefly on the ELMO. It's P1126A for the English
8 version. I think we could put that on the screen, and we do have it now
9 on the e-court. Thank you.
10 Sir, I'm he focussing your attention on the bottom portion of
11 this intercept that is taken on the 13th of July at 19 -- 13th of July,
12 1995, at 9.10 in the morning. It's a conversation between two unknown
13 individuals X and Y, and I'm sure you don't know who they are; but
14 they're talking about moving something to Zvornik. Do you see that? I
15 think it starts with: "And that's the closest" --
16 A. I can see that.
17 Q. -- "and what should I do now?"
18 Y says: "No, no, to Zvornik, they should send them to Zvornik."
19 X says: "To Zvornik? "
20 Y says: "Yes, yes, it's not possible because Milici ..." and
21 then it doesn't have much after that in English anyway; do you see that?
22 Then it goes on to say:
23 "X: Well I don't have any people, I don't have them."
24 Y says: No, not you." In English it says formal, "but the one
25 who brings him it, and tell him to Zvornik."
1 Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, I can see that. I saw the next page too.
3 Q. Now, we've heard a lot of evidence, and the Prosecution has
4 brought witnesses and some experts, I think even, on these intercepts,
5 who are these people who are talking at 9.10 on the 13th of July, 1995
6 if you know?
7 A. X and Y according to what we have here. Since Milici is referred
8 to, and it says -- I assume that the reference is to wounded people. I
9 know nothing else.
10 Q. Now, do you know, sir, that our position is that Ljubisa Beara
11 never had any intention to put or wasn't involved in any discussion to
12 place POWs in Zvornik at all. You know that's our position; right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know that the Prosecution during this case, and we asked
15 for a delay, and I've got to tell you I'm very grateful to a dear friend
16 of mine who is a colleague in this courtroom, she is one of -- and she
17 helped us find the document in the Croatian collection of intercepts that
18 were in the EDS
19 in the trial several months ago; and there is a document that I want to
20 show you here that I don't think we've seen since our case was over at
21 that point.
22 So can we have 2D642, please?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Finish your question. Have you finished it?
24 MR. OSTOJIC: We're going to get it once the document is up.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. In the meantime, Mr. Pandurevic,
1 the previous question was:
2 "Now do you know, sir, that our position is that Ljubisa Beara
3 never had any intention to put or wasn't involved in any discussion to
4 place POWs in Zvornik at all? You know that's our position; right?"
5 What was your answer, I'm asking you to repeat it because it
6 didn't show up in the transcript.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said I knew that
8 that was Mr. Ostojic's position. I don't know if it's anything other
9 than a position.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't know that he answered it that way before,
12 but we're not going to debate it.
13 Q. Let's look at this next exhibit to see if it's just my position
14 or if the Prosecutor gave us finally some evidence that they themselves
15 identify as exculpatory only after we brought it to their attention.
16 So, Mr. Pandurevic, we've got this 10.000 plus intercepts from
17 the Croatians that were taken. They were receiving intercepts from
19 Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Crna Rijeka, Zvornik, et cetera; but this
20 intercept, in particular, we didn't get to review with any of the
21 Prosecution witnesses because we didn't have it until late in the case.
22 2D642, it's in B/C/S. It's dated the 13th of July, 1995. Specifically I
23 want to direct your attention to the time which is at 11.25 which is well
24 or a couple hours after the intercept we have just seen where people were
25 discussing putting something in Zvornik which was at 9.10, I believe.
1 This intercept, if you see, doesn't capture a verbatim
2 conversation, so we don't know exactly the source, but the Prosecution
3 can help us with that. But look at what it says here, if you look at the
4 last sentence there and you can read it out because we don't have it
5 translated. It talks about people in --
6 JUDGE KWON: Could you let him read the full sentence?
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Of course.
8 JUDGE PROST: Intercept.
9 MR. OSTOJIC: Pardon me?
10 JUDGE PROST: Because we don't have a translation if he could
11 read it all through, that would be helpful. Thank you.
12 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm just excited about this intercept so I
13 apologise. Thank you.
14 Q. Could you read the entire intercept, Mr. Pandurevic, I'm sorry.
15 Thank you.
16 A. Yes:
17 "13th of July, 1995. 1125 hours, 924," that's probably some
18 number: "Colonel Ljubo Beara (the Main Staff of the VRS) sending four
19 buses, two lorries, and one trailer to Kasaba for the transport of
20 captured Muslims. They will be taken to the camp in the Batkovici
21 village where there will be a selection into various criminals and
22 ordinary – into war criminals and ordinary
24 Q. Now the word "selekcija" is in quotation marks, do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, do you understand that to mean like there would be a triage
2 or something, is that a synonym for that word, to the best of your
4 A. The military term is selection, it means making a distinction on
5 some sort of basis between the wounded, those who are infected, and so on
6 and so forth.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was that -- the question really is:
8 Why would the "selekcija" be in inverted commas because at the end of the
9 day this is a transcript. Why would it be in inverted commas or quotes?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know why the
11 person who drafted this put it in inverted commas, perhaps he had some
12 real doubts about the real purposes involved, the real objections
13 involved. Perhaps he had something else in mind when the term selection
14 was used, selection means some sort of sorting in my mind.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I put it to you, Mr. Pandurevic, that it is
16 inverted commas because irrespective of whether the person who
17 transcribed this thought the way you have explained it or not, he wanted
18 to make sure that the exact word used was reported and that's why he or
19 she put it in inverted commas, would you agree to that.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree with that if
21 that's the only word that was literally transcribed as it was said,
22 that's perhaps why it's in inverted commas.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Now, sir, is it fair to say that as of the 13th of July, 1995
25 11.25 a.m.
1 camp at Batkovci, was it not?
2 A. Well, this conversation confirms what I have said. And with
3 regard to what Obrenovic told me when speaking to Nikolic, it was said
4 that people would be brought there, taken there, they'd be kept there for
5 this triage and then sent to Batkovic [as interpreted] so on the 13th,
6 that was the objective.
7 Q. Let's look at the next exhibit, P1149, which is again the 13th of
8 July and it's again the same one we looked at the
9 Deronjic-Karadzic-intermediary discussion. Now these two civilians were
10 talking on this intercept about moving goods, 2.000 or so, if you will,
11 moving goods inside the warehouse or placing them somewhere else. So
12 this is approximately eight or so hours later that same day from the
13 prior intercept.
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, do you agree with me that this conversation that same day on
17 the -- there was a change from where they wanted to take the civilians
18 made a decision as to where they were going to put those POWs, do you see
19 that at all?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is not being broadcast because it is under
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in this conversation, they say
24 that they should be placed in the warehouse or somewhere nearby,
25 somewhere else. I don't know what they had in mind.
1 MR. OSTOJIC:
2 Q. Do you reject the proposition that it was Deronjic who sent the
3 POWs from Bratunac to Zvornik? Do you just reject that as a possibility
4 given that -- and two days earlier, he was told to secure and he was
5 named the commissioner in charge of the POWs or ...
6 A. I really don't know who took the decision, according to which
7 those prisoners from Bratunac should be transferred to the territory of
9 Q. But do you reject the possibility or probability, based on this
10 intercept, based on the exhibit that we saw, P10, Karadzic appointing
11 Deronjic, then this discussion, P1149 on the 13th of July where they are
12 discussing 2.000 of them or more and saying that they should be placed in
13 warehouses and they should be placed somewhere else? As you sit here,
14 don't you agree with me that it's possible, if not probable that it was
15 Deronjic who moved the men from Bratunac where he was from to Zvornik?
16 A. I can assume that he in some way participated in this event, but
17 to what extent his decision was independent, was taken together with
18 someone else, I really couldn't say.
19 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at P1206, please. Sir, this is an
20 intercept, as it's coming up, that involves General Krstic,
21 Captain Trbic, and through a switchboard operator, yourself, I think; but
22 we'll let you talk about that, but I think you mentioned that in your
24 Now, I think the date of this intercept, just that we're clear is
25 the 17th of July, 1995; correct?
1 A. I can't see the date.
2 Q. Well, I'm pretty sure it's the 17th.
3 MR. HAYNES: We can agree it is.
4 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
6 MR. OSTOJIC:
7 Q. I didn't want to scroll up and down, but thank you for that.
8 Now, here, first, there is a discussion with General Krstic and Trbic.
9 Again we shouldn't probably broadcast it and thank you for that. I want
10 to focus just our attention here a little bit to know where everyone is
11 because there is a switchboard operator that connected you through it.
12 Trbic is where, at the command in Zvornik?
13 A. Trbic was at the command in the office of the duty operations
15 Q. And you, sir, you are in the IKM; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you didn't -- and where was Krstic at the time?
18 A. I don't know whether he was in Vlasenica, whether the IKM or the
19 call was there, I'm not sure.
20 Q. So the switchboard was able to connect you with Krstic first,
21 with Trbic, and then ultimately with you at the IKM; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now let's look at the conversation first between Krstic and
24 Trbic. And I know the preliminary stuff that makes identification of the
25 people who are speaking and just below it says here Krstic says:
1 "Okay have you killed the Turks up there?" Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, Trbic responds by saying: "Well, I guess you got the
4 report. What more can I tell you?"
5 You see that obviously; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What report do you think Trbic is talking about?
8 A. Well, probably the report from the 16th that I sent interim
9 combat report.
10 Q. Okay. And then Krstic says: "I got it."
11 And Trbic responds by saying: "Basically we did?"
12 Krstic says: "What?"
13 Trbic says: "I said, basically we did."
14 What is he referring to when he says, "basically we did," on two
15 separate occasions, that he's killed the Turks?
16 A. On the whole, yes, we did. He said, Has that been broken up?
17 That's what Krstic asked. This conversation has to do with the events in
19 Q. But I know you want to go to that next line where they then start
20 talking about have they been broken up, but what is Krstic talking about
21 right before that when he says: "Have you killed the Turks up there?"
22 A. Yes, we have on the whole. He repeats the answer to the question
23 put by Krstic, Did you kill the Turks up there, that had to do with the
24 fighting in Baljkovica.
25 Q. Okay. Now let's go down to where you're -- get brought into the
1 conversation with Krstic. It starts by saying essentially:
3 Go ahead.
4 This is Krstic.
5 Hello, General, sir.
6 Hello. Vinko. Vinko.
7 Go ahead."
8 And then what I want to look at here, Krstic says to you:
9 "Are there any changes in reference to that report."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. I need to see the next page.
12 Q. Thank you, sir.
13 A. Yes, I can see it now.
14 Q. Now, I know there was some discussion about you saying you wanted
15 to, in your reports, to talk to Krstic. Here he's asking you about what
17 A. Well it's the report dated the 16th, an interim combat report, at
18 least that's what I had in mind, probably Krstic too.
19 Q. Okay. Now, your response is he wanted to know if there's any
20 changes to the report, you said: "Nothing significant."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Wouldn't that have been a good opportunity, if he's asking you
24 about the report, to tell him what you've heard from Obrenovic or any
25 others like Branjo Grujic about what you've heard with respect to any
1 POWs that may have arrived in Zvornik that were not in your zone of
3 A. In that report, the 16th of July, nothing was said about that.
4 It was in a report dated the 15th, and that's why Krstic didn't ask me
5 about it, and I didn't mention anything about it to him; and this is
6 something I have explained in the course of the examination-in-chief
8 Q. All right. I didn't fully understand it, but here, Krstic is
9 asking you, Are there any changes to your report? You're saying it's not
10 the report of the 15th where you talk about the prisoners being
11 distributed throughout the schools, you're saying it's the report of the
12 16th, and you're telling him there are no changes. Wouldn't that have
13 been a good opportunity to say, Oh, but yes, General Krstic, I do want to
14 tell you about these POWs that were brought here that I'm not responsible
15 for and the activities that these people are claiming are occurring in
16 the schools such as executions or burials.
17 A. One could have had such thoughts, too, but I selected to act as I
18 did, and you know how I gathered all the information, and how I relayed
19 all that information in the interim combat report dated the 18th; and I
20 also relayed that information when I subsequently had direct contact with
21 General Krstic.
22 Q. Did you ever talk to Trbic about this intercept and what his --
23 what he meant when he said, "basically we did" in response to the
24 question of Krstic: "Have you killed the Turks up there?"
25 A. Well how would I speak to him about this since I didn't know what
1 they had previously been discussing? The first time I saw this intercept
2 was here in The Hague
3 Q. Right. I didn't -- I wasn't sure if you saw it before because I
4 know you read Butler
5 know you tried to get in contact with Semso Muminovic; so I wasn't sure
6 if during that time when you were kind of -- before you were even
7 indicted did you look at this intercept or is the first time you saw it
8 was here when you came to The Hague
9 A. What you can see with regard to intercepts in Butler's report,
10 well, I saw all those things in the report, but as for all the other
11 intercepts, the first time I saw him was here in The Hague.
12 Q. Okay. Let's look at P1212 and it's A in English, Alpha, and D,
13 Delta, in B/C/S.
14 Sir, this is an intercept that purportedly is dated the 17th of
15 July at 9.50 in the morning, and it's the first portion of the intercept
16 that I'd like to direct your attention to. You're welcome to look at the
17 entire intercept, but it's the last paragraph with the last X before the
18 next intercept appears.
19 Sir, just to further direct your attention, there are other
20 references to you in that intercept. You're welcome to look at the whole
21 thing but again I'm only going to focus for now your attention on the
22 second -- or that last X in that intercept.
23 A. I've read it.
24 Q. Have you seen this intercept before?
25 A. I think I did here in The Hague along with the other intercepts.
1 Q. Now, this one of the 17th of July at 9.50 they seem to be
2 referencing you. I'm not suggesting, and it's not my burden of proof
3 against you, or anything; but it mentions your name, so I just want to
4 clarify. Do you remember this going on at all or this conversation?
5 Where you say there were hundreds dead and someone is saying:
6 "You can't kill them all there are so many of them. It's simply
7 a living mass. You can't, let's say ..." and then it goes on to talk a
8 is self-propelling gun, et cetera. Do you see that?
9 A. This is a conversation between two unidentified individuals who
10 probably wanted to take a certain route, but they were not sure if it was
11 safe. This was one of the examples how you spread rumours. They heard
12 from certain sources about certain events and now they are evolving the
13 situation, creating the situation, and interpreting it. The situation
14 was, indeed, serious but not nearly as serious as they are portraying it
16 Q. What about did 20 of your men get killed that day, which is the
17 paragraph right before that? That's pretty serious.
18 A. You've seen in the report that there are dozens of killed, which
19 means that we didn't know the exact number.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Pandurevic, the previous question from
21 Mr. Ostojic which was in a way a compound question also asked you whether
22 you remember this conversation. You don't seem to have answered that, at
23 least that's how I read your answer to the previous question.
24 Do you remember this conversation or not?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said that I've seen
1 this intercept along with other intercepts here in The Hague. I don't
2 know who the people participating in the conversation are. I certainly
3 am not one of them.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I wanted that to be clarified.
5 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, and I understood it that way,
6 Mr. Pandurevic. Thank you, Mr. President. Now let's look at P1310A,
7 Alpha and D, Delta, in B/C/S.
8 Q. This intercept, Mr. Pandurevic, is dated the 23rd of July, 1995
9 and I think it mentions Vinko, you addressed it, but it also mentions the
10 first name of Ljubo. Can you just read that whole thing and let me know
11 when you've had a chance to look at it or when you've completed your
13 A. The participant, it's, I think, the letter J, in inverted commas,
14 from the previous conversation called again and asked for Vinko, but
15 Ljubo answered. The question mark, in inverted commas, told Ljubo to
16 "Pass on to Vinko, what Vinko and I were just talking about. Will" --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we have lost the English
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Talking about will arrive at your
20 place by 1700 hours."
21 MR. OSTOJIC:
22 Q. Sorry, Mr. Pandurevic, they lost --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it the problem is solved. Because for a
24 moment, the interpreters had lost the English translation, but we have it
25 back now. So let's proceed. Thank you.
1 MR. OSTOJIC:
2 Q. Who is the Ljubo they are talking about in this intercept; do you
4 A. This is probably Ljubo Bojanovic.
5 Q. Let's be fair there is no doubt, is there, that it, in fact, is
6 Ljubo Bojanovic they are talking about there; right?
7 A. If we establish a connection with the previous conversation, then
8 it is Ljubo Bojanovic.
9 Q. Thank you. And then now let's go back to the duty officer
10 notebook which is P377, please. And you have that, sir, in front of you.
11 And I'd like to direct your attention to the last four numbers are 5759
12 of the ERN, so ERN last four numbers, 5759.
13 I forgot to ask you this one question on that page.
14 A. 5759, yes.
15 Q. At 1340 hours, it says:
16 "Obrenovic to call Vuk urgently." Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And we have some documents we'll show you in the tactical
19 intercept that say that Vuk is actually Semso Muminovic, but you're
20 saying Vuk is Dusko Vukotic, am I understanding you correctly, or did I
21 miss that?
22 A. Yes, that was his code-name.
23 Q. Now, and we'll see this a little bit later today when we looked
24 at some of the evidence from another case and Mr. Muminovic's interviews
25 with the Prosecution, he said your nickname was "Glovni" I think, do you
1 remember that you had a code-name called Glovni?
2 A. You think that's what Muminovic said? Yes, I've seen it
3 somewhere that he said that, but the code-name was not Glovni because, in
4 that case, it wouldn't be a code-name.
5 Q. We'll address it a little later when we get to that tactical
6 intercept section, but here at 1340 hours, Obrenovic to call Vuk
7 urgently. Is it your understanding that Obrenovic was to call
8 Dusko Vukotic urgently?
9 A. This is what it's supposed to be.
10 Q. This is again just so we are clear on the 15th of July, 1995
11 then down below at 1525 hours, it says duty officer from Zlatar is
12 looking for the commander so he can brief him on the situation.
13 Twenty-five minutes later, commander ordered tank company to go via
14 Snagovo, et cetera. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Help me understand why Obrenovic needed to call Dusko Vukotic or
17 Vuk urgently? I mean you were there, I think, approximately, at that
19 A. Yes, I was at the IKM at the time. I think that Vukotic was at
20 Kula Grad at the time. If he had some information from Obrenovic, I
21 really don't know.
22 Q. Let's turn to this exhibit, same one P377, ERN 5741. Sir, just
23 let me know when you've had a chance to get to that page, please.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. These are kind of just clean-up questions for me. It says here,
1 it mentions the name Ljubo on, I think, two occasions. And in the middle
2 of the page right under the name of Mitar Zeljko, do you see that it's a
3 reference to Ljubo to draw up our order, and again just so that everybody
4 is following and the record is clear, I'm sorry, sir, this is an entry of
5 the 13th of July, 1995. So I'm just asking for your assistance if you
6 can tell us who you think this Ljubo is that they're referencing here on
7 the 13th of July, 1995? Then it goes on to say, "To consult Dule or
8 Petkovic." Do you see that?
9 A. Probably Ljubo Bojanovic.
10 Q. Now, also below that, almost immediately, there is a reference
11 again to Ljubo and it talks about two Pragas, self-propelled guns. Who
12 are they referencing there; do you know?
13 A. Probably Ljubo Bojanovic again. As far as I know he was the only
14 one by that name in the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
15 Q. The next page if you can turn to that I think starts with Vukotic
16 and Petkovic, and the Prosecution was kind enough when they translated
17 this to show us who signed which entry; and I note before the page before
18 that I should have told you was apparently Sreten Milosevic according to
19 them. The first section was also Sreten Milosevic's handwriting, but the
20 section below that, they couldn't tell us whose handwriting that is
21 because they don't know, and what I want to know is here it says
22 Ljubo Dejanovic, do you see in the middle of the page. And we talked
23 about that earlier today about all these different Ljubos in the
24 Zvornik Brigade. And you didn't remember this guy, but if you look at it
25 and maybe if we could -- yeah, it's there.
1 A. I think that this was corrected by someone. This should read
2 Bojanovic. I am not familiar with this surname as it's written here.
3 Q. That's where I got it from. I looked it up and then I saw that.
4 But now I asked you about the blue book that you have there, which we
5 call the war diary, which is P378 about who had custody of it. Now, with
6 respect to 377, do you know who maintained custody of Exhibit P377, the
7 duty operations -- let me get the name right -- the duty officer notebook
8 after December of 1995?
9 A. I said yesterday that I didn't know.
10 Q. I know you've heard some evidence and discussion about it. Did
11 it surprise you that Dragan Obrenovic had possession of this book at one
13 A. That's what I learned here during the trial, that it was in his
15 Q. And did you find out, not just from this trial but from any other
16 source at any time whether Dragan Obrenovic made any changes or directed
17 others like, let's say, Dragan Jokic to make changes or entries in this
19 A. I am not aware of anything like that.
7 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you for that.
8 [Private session]
11 Page 31898 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are now in open session, Mr. Ostojic.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President for helping me clarify
4 that issue.
5 Q. Sir, I'd like to show you and discuss with you some of the
6 witness statements that Mr. Muminovic gave to the OTP relating to the
7 events of Srebrenica 1995, but just quickly for background, he was the
8 individual with whom you negotiated the passage of the column on the 16th
9 or thereabouts July, 1995; correct?
10 A. Both the 15th and the 16th.
11 Q. And he was what we call an enemy combatant; correct? He was on
12 the other side of the war on the Bosnian Muslim side; correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Now, let's look at his first interview, I think, that he has and
15 that was the 8th of June, 2001, so it was before your attempt to call him
16 because I know you talked to him or I think you mentioned you talked to
17 him on the 5th of September, 2001. So this first interview I have a
18 couple questions and it's P -- I'm sorry it's 2D635.
19 Again, as always, Mr. Pandurevic, to you're welcome to look at
20 the entire statement if you like I can provide it to you at the break or
21 your counsel can, but I really want to look at the third page both in
22 English and B/C/S and it says here ...
23 A. Do you have a hard copy for me, perhaps, please?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Can a hard copy be provided.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, I do, and I can.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam usher, please.
2 Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: If she could show it to Mr. Haynes and the
4 Prosecutor because there is some highlighting on it.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Again, Mr. Pandurevic --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I see Mr. Haynes consulting with his
8 staff. Yes, Mr. Haynes.
9 MR. HAYNES: He's handed me the hard copy in a language I don't
11 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought Mr. Pandurevic wanted it in B/C/S.
12 MR. HAYNES: I understand, yeah, thanks.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: I just need it back to see what I highlighted it's
14 that in English that I'm going to ask him about.
15 MR. HAYNES: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey doesn't need to see it, so let's
17 proceed. Thank you.
18 MR. OSTOJIC:
19 Q. I could let you take some time looking at the whole document but
20 Mr. Muminovic disagrees the reason why the column was opened. You gave
21 your reason and you mentioned as a humanitarian you doesn't want to see
22 people dying there. Mr. Muminovic says quite the opposite. He says he
23 broke through the defence line, we're going to get into specifically what
24 he says, I'm just giving you that background. You know that he takes a
25 completely different position than you do as to the purpose and the
1 rationale as to why the column was opened on the 16th of July, 1995
2 know that, don't you?
3 A. Yes, I do.
6 (redacted), and you testified
7 about other people not being forthright and truthful. Do you think
8 knowing what Mr. Muminovic said, do you think he's not being candid when
9 he said that the reason the column was actually open was because the BiH
10 broke through the Zvornik defence lines and we had actually encircled
11 them; and there was a panic on their side and Mr. Pandurevic was begging
12 me, because actually he uses the word begging, begging me to stop so we
13 could open the column and get these guys out of here because they would
14 have actually not only destroyed your whole brigade but probably the
15 entire town? You know that's what he says, right, in a nutshell?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's not what he says. Some of that is true,
17 but I think you should try to be a little more accurate than
19 MR. OSTOJIC: It was just --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And while we are at it because your questions are
21 becoming longer and longer but in the meantime, there is another problem.
22 Can we go to private session for a little bit? I need to point out
23 something to you, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Haynes, and Mr. McCloskey, please.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 31902 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are back in open session.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Pandurevic, we will get to the specific statement, and I
10 think it's the third one that Mr. Muminovic discusses the reason for the
11 opening of the corridor on the 16th of July in a little bit, and I got
12 ahead of myself a little bit. I really want to focus with respect to
13 this first statement, page 3, where Muminovic believed -- tell me when
14 you've found it. It's in the middle of the page, it says:
15 "Muminovic believed Pandurevic was in the Orahovac area near
16 Lazete." Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. I note that at that time he is talking about in July -- you can
19 see the reference immediately above that July 16th, 1995, and he talks
20 about Obrenovic and his vehicle being seized during the operation, et
21 cetera. Were you ever in Orahovac in the area near Lazete?
22 A. No, at that time, I was commanding solely from the IKM. That
23 is -- what you're referring to is a hole, and I couldn't see anything
24 from a hole.
25 Q. I'm only referring to what Mr. Muminovic is saying and I wanted
1 to clarify that. On the next page of this document, page 4,
2 Mr. Muminovic is talking about the negotiations between Obrenovic,
3 Pandurevic, yourself, sir, and Muminovic on the 16th of July and then he
4 talks about code-names being used; do you see that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. This is where you've read also, and where I've gotten where we
7 thought at least your code-name was Glavni, but you're telling us under
8 oath that that's not correct; right?
9 A. These are his assumptions and deductions. He didn't talk to
10 Obrenovic at all, but he says here that he had radio contact with
11 Obrenovic 20 times. On the first page, he says that on the 5th of May,
12 he knew that an attack on Srebrenica was imminent. I didn't know that at
13 the time.
14 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay. Let's go then to the next exhibit, 2D636
15 which is an interview with the Prosecutor and Mr. Muminovic dated
16 September 29th and October 1st, 2001. I'm going to try and see if I have
17 a B/C/S version for you as well. With the Court's permission if we could
18 ask the usher to show this to Mr. Haynes and the Prosecutor and then to
19 the witness.
20 As the Court can see while we're getting this to Mr. Pandurevic,
21 there is certain sections redacted, and I think the Prosecutor is best
22 able if the Court is interested to explain why; but that's the version
23 we've always had in our possession, and that's just the way it is.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no idea. I can figure it out.
25 MR. OSTOJIC: I don't know that it's necessary but just so the
1 Court and the record doesn't seem to indicate that we've redacted it. It
2 was given to us that way and that's where it's at.
3 Q. So if we can have, Mr. Pandurevic, you, take a look at this
4 exhibit, 2D636; and as you can see there are certain pages that are
5 completely blackened out or redacted or some reason, and the Prosecutor
6 will let us know what that is all about and the only question I have was
7 on the last page a couple entries with respect to this interview. Now,
8 just so we have this time line down, this was taken again as I said
9 September 29th and October 1st, 2001, which was approximately three or so
10 weeks after you had this phone contact with Mr. Muminovic through
11 Mr. Mijatovic; is that correct?
12 A. Probably yes. I don't remember the exact date. If I spoke to
13 him in September, and this is the end of September, then that's it. But
14 I think that I've seen this statement unredacted.
15 Q. You may have, sir, and we'll get to that at the next break but
16 for my purposes I really wanted to focus on these two. If you prefer not
17 to discuss that until you get the full version, I'll respect that and
18 move to the next exhibit.
19 Turn to the last page, if you will, and it talks about
20 Muminovic's discussion with you at approximately 2000 hours on the 15th
21 of July, and in the English version it says 15 July, 2001, but I'll let
22 the Prosecutor tell us, I think that might be a mistake, it should be
23 1995, I think?
24 JUDGE KWON: Are we looking at the same document? Could you
25 compare the B/C/S and English.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: We are, but we're looking at the wrong page.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: If you look at them they don't seem to be the same.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: It's actually the last page in B/C/S is correct.
4 We have that. We don't have the English version, page 4 which is the
5 next page. Then now it should be correct.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now it's okay. No, that's also on B/C/S.
7 JUDGE KWON: English has only three pages.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry, I'm looking at the exhibit physically,
9 and I have four pages so.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's sort it out. If anyone has a
11 hard copy of the fourth page in English which is -- seems to be missing
12 from e-court, we can put it on the ELMO.
13 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought we saw it just now.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it was in B/C/S.
15 MR. HAYNES: Perhaps we could use the --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: What you saw, what you saw on the left-hand side of
17 the monitor, which to me also initially seemed to be the English
18 translation was, in actual fact, the B/C/S.
19 MR. OSTOJIC: How about if we, with your permission, put this on
20 the ELMO. There are two or three highlights, but I don't know that they
21 really matter.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Haynes.
23 MR. HAYNES: Yes, I'm perfectly happy with that.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. That part, I don't know. I
25 don't know. I need someone to make sure that the last page, page four,
1 which we don't have in e-court, has not been subject of a redaction.
2 MR. OSTOJIC: You know what, Mr. President, he's going to find
3 that out if we get the break.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: We can have the break now, but I need someone to
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Page 4 is okay, I'm told.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not redacted.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you can put your question. Then you can put
10 your question, and we'll have the break soon after.
11 THE REGISTRAR: For the record this document is the same as
13 MR. OSTOJIC: So would it be okay if I then retrieved the
14 document and not put it on the ELMO, and then we can look at it through
15 e-court? Thank you. I just want to make sure -- sorry. Thank you.
17 Q. Thank you, sir, and I'm sorry for that confusion on the document.
18 Sir, I want to focus your attention as we see on the third or the
19 fourth page of the English version where it says:
20 "Muminovic believes he spoke to Pandurevic at approximately 2000
21 hours on 15 July."
22 And as I stated earlier in English it seems to be 2001, but I
23 think that's a mistake but we'll let the Prosecutor address that. I
24 think it should be 1995. And that he believes, meaning Muminovic
25 believes that, "Both Pandurevic and Obrenovic may have been aware of his,
1 Muminovic's, knowledge of the murders outside the column."
2 Do you know where Mr. Muminovic gets this information from?
3 A. He did speak to me on the 15th, he didn't speak to Obrenovic
4 though. He didn't mention any men being killed, and he couldn't have
5 known whether anyone else had any information about this. I didn't know
6 anything about it, and I didn't mention anything about it, and he didn't
7 mention any killings to me either.
8 Q. On the 16th of July a day later, he also, while discussing this
9 with the Prosecution, which is just a paragraph right below that, it's
10 actually the last paragraph in this exhibit, he continues to say that he
11 openly told you that he knew of the murders being committed and he goes
12 on to say as we can see:
13 " ... and that he begged Pandurevic to open a passage for the
14 column and to stop killing the people in the column."
15 Is that accurate or inaccurate from Mr. Muminovic's point of
17 A. I can compare this with his previous statement when he said that
18 he broke through the frontlines and made it possible for the columns to
19 pass through. Here it says that he asked me to open up a corridor and to
20 stop killing people in the column.
21 What I said in the course of the examination-in-chief is the
22 correct version.
23 Q. I just want to know because Mr. Muminovic was on your witness
24 list. Did you talk to him about these issues when you guys put him on
25 your list as a potential witness for your defence case? Did you say,
1 Mr. Muminovic, you take a contrary position or -- strike that.
2 You take a position saying, I knew about the murders. I didn't
3 know on the 15th about the murders. I didn't know about on the 16th when
4 we spoke.
5 Did you have that kind of a discussion with him at all, with your
7 A. I didn't speak to him as if he were a potential witness. I spoke
8 to him over the phone on two occasions. I didn't know he had given
9 statements, and I didn't know what he had said in those statements. I
10 never spoke to him about the events in Baljkovica on the 15th and 16th.
11 He is on the list of witnesses, the 92 bis witness list but this has to
12 do with a different period and different events. My Defence team never
13 spoke to him about these events in Baljkovica, as far as I know.
14 Q. Okay. And now just because -- I don't know exactly when the
15 break is, but I'm sure we'll find out.
16 When you said at one point he said you were begging to open the
17 column and this section it says he was begging. Really to concretely
18 look at it we have to look at his third interview with the Prosecutor
19 where they finally decided to get the facts in the case and that was from
20 October 10th, 11th and 13th of 2001, but what I -- just in summary and
21 we'll go through it specifically but in summary it says he wanted you to
22 let the column go. You initially said no. They then advanced and made
23 an action against the Zvornik Brigade, opened the defence line, encircled
24 it, was about to crush it, then the table was turned, then he actually
25 says that you were begging him to open the column up, so I don't know
1 that they are mutually exclusive. He's saying initially he did beg for
2 the column but later he took action and then he turned the tables on you
3 and the Zvornik Brigade and then you were begging for it.
4 Do you know that's what his position is in essence?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
6 MR. HAYNES: That's a fantastically compound question.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic specialises in that. Shall we
8 have the break, and you think how to break it down into a number of
9 smaller questions.
10 MR. OSTOJIC: Maybe I'll try. Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. 25 minutes.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Just to answer the question
16 about that information report with the redactions on it. I've looked at
17 that and that contained internal investigative information non-relevant
18 to the information that was on the latter half of the report. Somehow
19 that mixed up an information report with an internal information so
20 that's why we had to do that but it should stay internal.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
22 Mr. Ostojic.
23 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Sir, right before the break, I asked a long question as a
25 foundation, and I'd like us to look at Exhibit 2D637, please. I'll try
1 to break up my questions a little bit for you.
2 As it's coming up, Mr. Pandurevic, I do have the B/C/S version if
3 you prefer to have a hard copy, with the Court's permission and the
4 usher's assistance, we can tender that to you of 2D637. Thank you very
6 This is an interview with Mr. Muminovic on the 10th, 11th, and
7 13th of October, 2001, as indicated in the first page. Have you seen
8 this interview and reviewed it prior to your testimony here these past
9 few weeks?
10 A. I read through this a long time ago, perhaps last year.
11 Q. This is a lengthy interview of approximately ten pages although
12 it has on the 11th and 12th page, witness acknowledgment and
13 interpreter's certification. And I'd like to just direct your attention,
14 if I may, to the sixth page in English, as well as in B/C/S, and it
15 should be the entry that starts on the paragraph, "On 15 July, 1995."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I want to give you an opportunity to review that, so if you
18 could just take a moment and review that paragraph because I'd like to
19 ask a question about it, and we'll read along also but to ourselves.
20 A. I've read through it.
21 Q. That first paragraph, Mr. Muminovic just says that he had a
22 conversation with Obrenovic and that he requested him to let the people
23 pass, not to kill anybody. And he has the date as the 15th of July,
24 1995. Did Obrenovic ever share that conversation with you when you met
25 him at the command on the 15th of July, after 12.00 or 1.00 and forgive
1 me for not knowing the precise time, but I thought it was always
2 approximate after 12.00 when you arrived?
3 A. According to all the statements made by Obrenovic and on the
4 basis of my own information and on the basis of conversations with
5 Vukotic, Obrenovic did not speak to Semso on any occasion. Vukotic
6 didn't, so did I.
7 Q. Anyone else other than Dusko Vukotic and yourself that had
8 conversations with Mr. Muminovic?
9 A. As I have said that's the information I had. I certainly spoke
10 to him on the 15th and on the 16th, Vukotic spoke to him on the 15th. As
11 for Obrenovic, there is no information according to which he spoke to
13 Q. Just so I get an answer to my question, so I'm correct that
14 Obrenovic didn't share anything with respect to this portion that
15 Mr. Muminovic claims that he spoke to Obrenovic, talked about letting the
16 column go, and talked about not killing the people. Obrenovic never told
17 you any of that; correct?
18 A. No, he didn't tell me anything.
19 Q. Now, if we can turn on the next page which is page 7 of both the
20 English and B/C/S, and it's really the large paragraph basically in the
21 centre of the page that I'd like to focus your attention on. And this is
22 where Mr. Muminovic kind of explains his position with respect to why the
23 column or the corridor was opened, so I know it's a lengthy paragraph but
24 please take your time and read through it, if you don't mind.
25 A. I've read through this lengthy passage.
1 Q. I'm about to put a compound question. I'm going to break it down
2 on a couple of issues that I'd like to discuss with you. In the fourth
3 line at least in the English versions, on page 7 it says, it starts
4 actually on the third line:
5 "Since Jankovic had been arrested, Pandurevic was begging me to
6 release Jankovic."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Is it true that you were begging him to release Jankovic?
10 A. We negotiated about this. It wasn't a matter of begging.
11 Q. Okay. Now the next few lines he's discussing Mr. Muminovic is,
12 that he discussed with you opening the corridor letting the people go
13 through, and then he states that:
14 "Regardless of the negotiations, they continued with the ambushes
15 in the area of Baljkovica."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Well, I do. No ambushes had been set up there, but the division
18 had been blocked and surrounded.
19 Q. And then below that, the very next line, Mr. Muminovic is talking
20 about the negotiations lasting until 2100 hours and then he talks about
21 his military actions that he took that early morning about approximately
22 6.00 on the 16th where he attacked the Serbian front line, do you see
24 A. He did take action in the morning, offensive action, but he
25 didn't succeed in doing what he says he did.
1 Q. So far all he says is, I attacked the Serbian front line. Is
2 that accurate, to the best of your recollection? It should be attacked
3 the Serbian front line or the Serb front line, I'm sorry.
4 A. He launched an attack, that's what I've just said.
5 Q. From your answer, and then the next point I think you tell me if
6 you disagree or agree with what Mr. Muminovic is saying, at that point,
7 he says:
8 "I broke the front line in Baljkovica. I seized the Obrenovic's
9 forward command post and the battalion command and destroyed the firing
10 position of the mortar 82 and 120 mm and captured Dragan Tesic."
11 That's kind of the full sentence.
12 Do you agree or disagree with what Mr. Muminovic is saying there?
13 A. That's not correct. I don't know when Dragan Tesic was captured
14 but they didn't break through the front line after the corridor had been
15 opened up, some of their forces were sent through the corridor from the
16 direction of Nezuk to help to get the wounded out and to help those who
17 were leaving the 28th Division column. And on that occasion, they set
18 fire to Praga and took that vehicle away.
19 Q. Then he goes on, and he continues, and we read it to ourselves,
20 then he continues to say that he told you, apparently, at 1405 after you
21 reached the final agreement to let the people from Srebrenica go and stop
22 killing all civilians.
23 Did you have that kind of a conversation with Mr. Muminovic?
24 A. Your Honours, I'd like to expand on this because otherwise I
25 might go down the wrong route with your leave.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, be all means, Mr. Pandurevic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.
3 The previous two statements that we saw, well one is from June,
4 the other one from September.
5 In the June statement, for the 16th, Mr. Muminovic says that he
6 asked me to open a corridor. In the statement from September, it says
7 that at 6.30 he broke through the front line. In this statement from
8 October, we have a new version yet again but he insists on having
9 established contact with me through Dragan Obrenovic; that's not correct.
10 On the 16th in the morning, events continued to unfold, that is
11 when wounded operations officer from the 28th Division were surrendered
12 to Obrenovic. Obrenovic received information on the situation on the
13 28th Division, and that information was relayed to me and in the
14 meantime, I had received other information that Semso was looking for me
15 on the 16th and at about 10.00, I contacted him.
16 I then offered him a cease-fire and the possibility of letting
17 the column pass through. You have seen the intercepts when I say -- when
18 I tell Obrenovic that I had reached an agreement with Semso. We would
19 move our soldiers from the three trenches. We showed them the places
20 that that would occur in, and we'd let the column pass through. I
21 wouldn't conceal anything from Obrenovic. I wouldn't conceal the fact
22 that the three trenches had been taken or that we would open up this
24 If the 28th Division and the 2nd Corps had crushed me, everybody
25 would have known about that. I would have conveyed all of that
1 information to the corps, and I would have told them there was nothing I
2 could do, and that I had been defeated in military terms. That would
3 have been quite possible but that's not what happened. That's why my
4 report from the 16th, my interim report, my interim combat report is such
5 as it is and that is the whole truth, Mr. Ostojic.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
7 Q. I just wanted to -- if you disagree with it and I don't know
8 Mr. Muminovic at all, I just wanted to see -- really I just wanted to put
9 it to you because it's there and I'm sure the Prosecution is going to ask
10 this. So I'm not debating anything with you, sir. What I want to know
11 is at the bottom of that page, page 7 on the English, and I think as well
12 on the B/C/S version, Mr. Muminovic says that there was an intercept that
13 was apparently captured. He calls it first an information report and if
14 you read on which is the paragraph --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
16 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes. Thank you. Sorry.
17 Q. Mr. Pandurevic, directing your attention to the very next
18 paragraph and again on this exhibit, on page 7 in English and B/C/S,
19 Mr. Muminovic is talking about receiving an information report on the
20 16th of July. Two lines below that, he refers to it as an intercept and
21 a conversation that he claims that you had with General Zivanovic, so I
22 just want to direct your attention to that and let me know when you've
23 read that full paragraph.
24 A. I can see it and I've read through it, but I didn't speak to
25 General Zivanovic. I don't know whether the document mentioned in the
1 attachment -- mentioned as an attachment exists. Perhaps we can have a
2 look at it.
3 Q. That's what I was going to ask you. Did you have a conversation
4 with General Zivanovic on the 16th about the --
5 A. No.
6 Q. About anything, right?
7 A. I didn't speak to Mr. Zivanovic at all on that day.
8 Q. Maybe the Prosecutor will be kind enough to get the document for
9 us because when we got this material, those documents were not attached
10 either so I haven't seen it. I just wanted to see what your thoughts
11 were on that.
12 Now, I'd like to direct your attention if I may to page 10 of the
13 document or this exhibit, 2D637. Sir, this is where, just to orientate
14 you on the document, it is when Mr. Muminovic is discussing his meeting
15 with Miladin Mijatovic in Tuzla
16 respect to a phone call happened. So if you could take a look at those
17 three or so paragraphs, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.
18 A. Yes, yesterday I told you about these conversations between
19 myself and Semso after the war.
20 Q. Who sent Miladin Mijatovic to meet with Mr. Muminovic in August
21 or beginning of September 2001?
22 A. I asked Mijatovic to establish contact with him and to give me
23 his phone number.
24 Q. Why?
25 A. I wanted to speak to him on the phone. I said something about
1 this yesterday.
2 Q. That's why I'm just following up with this, with the document.
3 The next paragraph here it says that in the last sentence in that
4 fourth from the bottom paragraph, it says:
5 "Pandurevic indicate that he had given interviews to 'Panorama'
6 and other newspapers ..." do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I do, but I don't remember giving any interviews to such
9 Q. And then it goes on to say you're stating that you are not guilty
10 of any crimes and that a Muslim commander could provide information on
11 that topic. Did you discuss that at all with Mr. Muminovic in September,
12 approximately, 5th of 2001?
13 A. Yes, I don't know the exact date but I suggested, since I knew
14 that he was familiar with the way events actually unfolded in Baljkovica
15 on the 15th and 16th, I said if he wanted to be sincere and provide
16 information in the form of an interview to the media, well, then, he
17 could do so, so that the truth might come out because no one discussed
18 these things.
19 Q. Did you discuss with any news outlets your position as
20 Mr. Muminovic indicates with either Panorama or other news agencies?
21 A. Well, I can't even remember which newspapers are involved,
22 "Panorama," and as for the other conversation over a land line, the other
23 conversation with Mr. Muminovic, he suggested that he send a newspaper
24 from Bosnia
25 I didn't take him up on that suggestion.
1 Q. All right. Let's look just quickly since we are on the topic of
2 Mr. Muminovic, the tactical intercept and we'll bring that up for you,
3 which is P2232, I believe. And just so the Court is aware, the entire
4 tactical intercept book was not translated but only certain portions so
5 we -- there is a thick B/C/S version and we have just a few pages or so
6 of the English version for the dates that I think are relevant. I said a
7 few, but there's actually 29 just so that it's clear on the record.
8 I don't know if we have the original, and if we do, we just ask
9 maybe it would be easier for Mr. Pandurevic to have the original when he
10 reads or answers questions. You do not. Okay.
11 I have a hard copy --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can get it, but, of course, we don't have it
14 MR. OSTOJIC: I think we can still go through it.
15 Q. Now, sir, I want to orientate you to a couple of points in this
16 intercept or these tactical intercepts, and we talked a little bit about
17 code-names but I'd like for you to find, if you can, on the 13th of July,
18 and I'll give the ERN number --
19 MR. HAYNES: Does the witness have the B/C/S version in front of
20 him in any format all?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you, Mr. Pandurevic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have the B/C/S version
23 or the page that Mr. Ostojic is referring to in English either.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Maybe I could help. It is P2231. It is B/C/S
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
3 MR. OSTOJIC: The English version is P2232, the B/C/S version is
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. OSTOJIC: I can give him mine.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We can move now, it should be up.
8 MR. OSTOJIC: If we can be directed to the B/C/S ERN 0084-8949,
9 which is approximately eight pages from the start of the exhibit. Just
10 so we can orientate ourselves, we're trying to find the entry at
11 2050 hours and on the English page it's page 3, the bottom of the page.
12 At 2050, it proceeds to say:
13 "Lovac 1 reported to Lovac."
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.
15 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, here, I just wanted again for you to tell us if you know who
17 Lovac 1 was and who he was reporting to?
18 A. Lovac 1 was Dragan Obrenovic, and Lovac was the radio
19 communications centre according to the plan of communications network
20 that he had designed and which he discussed in his statement.
21 Q. Okay. And just for the English speakers, we're going to turn to
22 the next page, page 4, but for B/C/S, we're still staying on this 949
23 page and there's a discussion there about a vehicle, there's a discussion
24 about "Premijer," and that's still on the 13th because I think if you
25 look at the date right underneath it at least in English it shows that
1 it's the 14th, but I'm presuming that, you correct me if I am wrong, and
2 then it talks about in parentheses, it has the name Ljubo, do you see
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Who are they talking about here?
6 A. About Ljubo.
7 Q. I know, but do you know which Ljubo?
8 A. I can only assume that it's Ljubo Bojanovic, if this person is
9 attached to the Zvornik Brigade. If he is not, I don't know who he is.
10 Q. Who are the other people that they are referencing there
11 "Premijer" and ...
12 A. We said that "Premijer" was the code-name for the radio intercept
13 station of the Zvornik Brigade, the other names are code-names of the
14 units that took part in the blockade of the 28th Division.
15 Q. Now, if you turn the page, sir, they are talking and the same
16 page in English, page 4 on the next day which is the 14th of July, and
17 I'll have to concede this, Mr. Pandurevic, you may not be able to read
18 the B/C/S version because I think the copies are actually rather poor,
19 that's basically how we received them and I guess that's the way it is.
20 At 1330, it has a conversation with Roki, and this would be on
21 ERN 8950, it has at 1330 Roki and Omega requested a package from Roki.
22 Do you see that?
23 A. I can see it in English but not in the Bosnian.
24 Q. Okay. I think that will be okay. What are they referring to
25 here, a package?
1 A. A certain Roki and Omega are talking but I don't know whose
2 code-names these are, and what kind of packages they are referring to,
3 whether they are referring to human beings or something else, I don't
5 Q. Who was Roki and Omega?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: He just told you that he doesn't --
7 MR. OSTOJIC: I was flipping the pages, thank you, Mr. President,
9 Q. Let's then go to the 15th of July, which is in the English pages
10 8 through 14 and for you, Mr. Pandurevic, we should start, I think, at
11 the last three numbers being 953 on the B/C/S version. That's where it
12 starts just so he can see the date but then I'll direct his attention
13 when he cease the numbers the last three numbers 957 in the B/C/S, and
14 page 13 in the English.
15 So again, sir, just to orientate ourselves, it seems to be that
16 this is a tactical intercept from the 15th of July, and I want to focus
17 your attention on the entry that starts at 1345 and it says:
18 "Vuk spoke to Zukov again ..." and you just let me know when
19 you've seen that.
20 A. I can see it in English, but I can't see it in Bosnian.
21 Q. Okay. Are we okay to proceed, but I think in the B/C/S it would
22 be 8957 are the last four ERN numbers. Then we're looking at the entry
23 at 1345.
24 A. Yes, I can see it now.
25 Q. Now, immediately the third line underneath that it talks about
1 Igman and Igman 1, and who are they again?
2 A. Igman was artillery, as far as I remember, the mixed artillery
3 battalion, and Igman 1 was one of its units.
4 Q. Thank you. The next paragraph or next few lines we tried to -- I
5 covered it yesterday in part asking you who Vuk was, Ikar, Pavle; do you
6 see that entry there, those three individuals?
7 A. Yes, yes, I do. I said yesterday that Vuk was Vukotic, that was
8 his code-name for the most time and that probably that was the name used
9 at that time as well.
10 Q. It identifies the three people, Vuk, Ikar and Pavle, and I know
11 that you said Dusko Vukotic negotiated with Mr. Muminovic as did you, but
12 Obrenovic did not. The entry I want to get your -- get an answer to
13 this, it says:
14 "I talked to Semso (Vuk) and stopped the activities."
15 Who, other than you, sir, was talking to Semso and who other than
16 you -- well I don't want to make a compound question. We'll stop there.
17 Who other than you and Dusko Vukotic were talking to Semso Muminovic on
18 the 15th of July after 1345 hours?
19 A. I don't know if anyone else spoke to him. Maybe somebody from
20 the MUP. All I know is that I and Vukotic spoke to him.
21 Q. Then it goes on to say:
22 " ... stopped the activities."
23 Who other than you, sir, was able to stop the activities?
24 A. I cannot see clearly here in the original whether a proposal was
25 made to stop the activities or if they had actually been stopped. I
1 would appreciate if this page can be enlarged, if possible.
2 Q. We're going to try also, Mr. Pandurevic, to get the original so
3 that --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: The original is in evidence as you may recall
6 when the witness came. It is gettable, that will take a bit of time. We
7 can try right now, but it seems like it may be worth waiting to get the
8 original as opposed to this -- what's -- what sounds like guess work and
9 I don't think the witness should rely on the English.
10 And on another topic, the intercept that was the attachment of
11 the Muminovic statement, I am told is 65 ter 1183 from 16 July, 0706
12 hours if you want to get it up on the screen.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. In the meantime, is it possible to zoom
14 in further? Maybe that will make it easier for the witness.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you work with that, Mr. Pandurevic, or do you
17 want it ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to read, Your Honours.
19 "Vuk, Ikar, Pavle, I spoke with Semso (Vuk) and stopped the
20 activities. They are --" [No interpretation]
21 MR. OSTOJIC: I'm sorry, Mr. Pandurevic, they haven't translated
22 it, so I don't mean to stop you. They stopped, actually, where you said
23 they care for the head of the column, soldiers.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: They stopped at -- the interpretation stopped with
25 the words "and stopped the activities. Then you continued reading. If
1 you could repeat it again slowly, Mr. Pandurevic.
2 Let's zoom in a little bit further. I think we can still do
3 that. Understanding that will make it easier.
4 Can you start again from after the word "activities."
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, certainly.
6 " ... they care about the head of the column (army). I suggested
7 to him that they let all those from the central prison in Tuzla
8 shall -- these -- Pavle, we cannot --" I can't make out this word, and
9 then it says "negotiations."
10 I think it says something like we are not authorised to
12 What is Semso saying about the captured policemen, he says that
13 they were there alive and so on and so forth.
14 Shall I keep on reading, Your Honours?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. Mr. Ostojic, do you need him to read
17 MR. OSTOJIC: I thought the Court asked him to read it but no,
18 that's fine for this point right here.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Fine, thank you.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: And I want to break it down a little bit.
21 Q. And I know you don't know or you told us who the people are:
22 Vuk, Ikar and Pavle. It says here that there was a suggestion to release
23 all those from the central prison in Tuzla, and in English we have here
24 "and we would release these," so who other than you were negotiating with
25 Mr. Muminovic because it seems from this tactical intercept on the
1 15th of July at 1345 hours, whoever these three people are, they
2 certainly knew that there was some prisoners and there was a discussion
3 on exchanging some from Tuzla
4 "they", the Zvornik Brigade, in essence?
5 A. Mr. Ostojic, you understand this conversation perfectly well.
6 Look at it once again. The persons talking are Vuk, Ikar, and Pavle, and
7 the signalsman on the Muslim side who was recording this. Vuk speaks
8 first and says, I spoke to Semso. It's the signalsman who put Vuk in
9 parentheses which means that Vuk spoke to Semso, and the activities were
10 stopped, "and they care," and that is what Vuk is saying, "they care
11 about the head of the column," and it was Vuk who suggested that they
12 release all those from the central prison in Tuzla and we shall release
13 these. It is Vuk who is proposing the cease-fire and the cessation of
14 combat, not Pavle or Ikar.
15 Pavle said that he was not authorised to negotiate.
16 Q. Thank you for clarifying that, but my point is that Vuk was a
17 member of the Zvornik Brigade. You told us that his name was
18 Dusko Vukotic, he on the 15th of July, 1995, at 1345 hours, he's talking
19 about exchanging prisoners that he has, isn't he, with those that Bosnian
20 Muslims have from the central prison in Tuzla?
21 A. When Vuk says "these men," he's referring to the 28th Division.
22 Since you are pushing me to the limit, you persistently avoid a
23 conversation where Ljubo did not take part, only his surname was
24 mentioned. After Krstic had send me to Zvornik to fight the
25 28th Division, he asked 20 or 30 men from Krstic to deliver packages or
1 distribute packages. Vukotic had no men to offer for exchange. If he
2 was referring to the 28 columns the one who was asking for this to be
3 sent was on my doorstep to put it figuratively, but he says you'd better
4 speak to Vasic or Obrenovic don't speak to Pandurevic although it he is
5 close to you because he wouldn't dare speak to me about this or he didn't
6 trust me.
7 Q. Mr. Pandurevic, I'm sorry if you think that I'm pushing you to
8 the limit, that's not my intent. I just wanted clarification on this
10 If you don't mind, if we can proceed with the next passage which
11 in English appears on page 14, and I think it continues on the same page
12 in B/C/S although they would have to probably scroll -- I think it's
13 actually good there because it's immediately before the 1510 entry and
14 the word Pavle and Pekos, so we pretty much have it.
15 Again, sir, this is a tactical intercept after 1345 but before
16 1510 hours on the 15th of July, 1995. We have the English translation,
17 but I just want to make sure that you can read that, those four or five
18 lines because you'd like to ask you a couple questions about that.
19 A. Shall I read the last three lines out loud?
20 Q. If the Court would like you to you can, but for my purposes you
21 don't just the Court indicated earlier to read so ...
22 A. Very well.
23 Q. Here, they are discussing a captured policeman and if anything
24 happened to him, and then someone says it will be 100 for 1; do you see
1 A. Well, obviously someone from the police was inquiring about these
2 policemen and this person Pavle could be someone from the MUP.
3 Q. It goes on to say Pavle told him not to negotiate with him so
4 just so I'm right -- make you could tell us it's Pavle telling Vuk not to
5 negotiate with Mr. Muminovic; correct? Did I get that right at least?
6 A. Probably. Pavle was passing instructions to him not to
8 Q. If Pavle is with the MUP possibly, why would he be giving
9 instructions to one of your men in the Zvornik Brigade?
10 A. They were in contact. They were talking to each other. Maybe
11 this man thought that was a better approach. But if I had given this
12 order, why would I be negotiating afterwards?
13 Q. I'm only asking to clarify this, I'm not testing you on. It goes
14 on to say:
15 "We'll kill them in the and he can fire at Serbia, Belgrade
16 Zvornik as much as he wants" the next sentence I wanted to get your
17 thoughts on and he says: "Tell him that all of them should surrender in
19 Again, 15th of July after 1340 hours and apparently before 1510
20 hours, what was happening in Orahovac that they would be surrendering and
21 who is surrendering? I mean why Orahovac of all places? Did Pavle and
22 this guy, Vuk, know what was happening in Orahovac at that time?
23 A. Nobody surrendered in Orahovac at that time. Unfortunately on
24 the afternoon of the 14th, all those who were held prisoner in Orahovac
25 were executed.
1 Q. But my question is: Why would he tell him, who is the "him" that
2 all of them should surrender in Orahovac? Is Pavle telling Dusko Vukotic
3 or is Dusko Vukotic telling Pavle or what?
4 A. Tell him to have them all surrendered in Orahovac. I don't know
5 what this means and what he wanted to say. What I know is that at the
6 time mentioned here, there was no one held prisoner in Orahovac. Even
7 all those who were shot dead on the 14th had been buried by that time and
8 that was a fact established in the course of this trial.
9 Q. Well, you don't know -- you didn't know that information on the
10 15th of July, 1995; correct?
11 A. That's correct, I said that a few times.
12 Q. And you didn't know that information on the 16th of July, 1995
14 A. On the evening of the 16th, I knew that men had been shot dead in
16 Q. When we look at this entry, do you think, to the best -- if you
17 answer this -- do you think Pavle and Vuk or Ikar that they knew what was
18 happening in Orahovac, and that's why they are asking for the rest of the
19 column to surrender in Orahovac?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
21 MR. HAYNES: It's just an invitation to speculate. It's also
22 about four questions at the same time. He is a factual witness.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ostojic.
24 MR. OSTOJIC: Okay.
25 Q. Mr. Pandurevic, if we could look at the July 16th entry which is
1 8958 in B/C/S and page 15 in the English version. I only bring this up
2 because you mentioned some intercept that you talked about on your direct
3 examination but -- and it starts at 32 and I, or 1, talked, "A package
4 went up there ten minutes ago." This again just so you know, I think
5 it's the 16th of July, 1995, at 8.15.
6 Just let me know when you've seen it.
7 A. Yes, I can see it.
8 Q. Do you know what package they're talking about?
9 A. It says 31 and 2 talked, maybe it was radio package
10 communication, whether it was the form of the communication that took
12 Q. Okay. Skipping along the next couple of pages which is page 19
13 in the English version and 8961 in the B/C/S. The entry is 1100 hours
14 "Lovac 1 and Palma
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction it should be radio
16 packet communication.
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you.
18 Q. Sir, just to direct your attention this again, I believe, from
19 looking at it is the 16th of July, 1995.
20 A. I don't see where it says that the road is passable or free. I
21 suppose that it's where the cursor is but this word is not clear. I can
22 only discern the road is ...
23 Q. Okay and that's okay because that's not really -- my question was
24 just directing your attention to that paragraph.
25 I really want to -- if you can find where Palma asks Lovac 1:
1 "Are the Turks at the school?"
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this is on the 16th of July, 1995 at approximately 1100
4 hours. Do you have any information as to what Palma and Lovac 1, who is
5 Obrenovic, were talking about when they were asking: "Are the Turks at
6 the school?"
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Would you share that with us?
9 A. I was Palma
10 the old school in Baljkovica close to the defence line, and if you look
11 at the map, you will see the letter SH [as interpreted], which stands for
13 Q. We'll get that map. I was hoping to have it today, but we'll get
14 it for sure on Monday, and we'll go through it a little bit.
15 Now, we couldn't hear what Lovac 1 says and what did he say in
16 response to this when you asked him: "Are the Turks at the school?"
17 A. I honestly don't remember.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Perhaps yes, perhaps no.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to clarify, is it SH for school or some
21 other letters?
22 MR. OSTOJIC: It's SK, I think the witness says in B/C/S but I
23 think they just translated it, it's SK I think.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's my question. We got SH so I just want to
25 clarify that if it's going to be a map reference, especially.
1 MR. OSTOJIC: We don't have the map here.
2 Q. But to the best of your recollection, Mr. Pandurevic, the
3 reference to the school was abbreviated Sk; right?
4 A. Yes, there's a topographic sign and it's marked S, capital S.
5 That's the diacritic and small k.
6 Q. Now talking about this entry here, it talks about the men from
7 Bratunac as well, a line or two above that and the men from Bratunac from
8 time to time we've seen some reference that we were in Orahovac. Now,
9 here it says, "Palma
10 the school."
11 What I'd like to know from you is what school is that? I know in
12 the second portion of that when I asked you are the Turks at the school,
13 you told us that, but now there's another entry of school so I wanted to
14 make sure it's maybe the same, but I'd rather have you answer it than me
16 A. It's the same school in Baljkovica, the old school. And these
17 are the men who came to the 4th Battalion --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Pandurevic,
20 please, for the interpreters.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. So this is the same
22 school in Baljkovica, which was burned down at the time. The men from
23 Bratunac are the unit from Bratunac that had arrived on the 15th and
24 deployed in the defence zone of the 4th Battalion.
25 MR. OSTOJIC:
1 Q. Now, I see that they've given you, I think, the tactical
2 intercept original P2231; correct, sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And with all due respect since we covered it, but perhaps not
5 as -- since we didn't have the original, and we did have some trouble
6 reading it, if I can direct your attention, again, to the entry, and that
7 would be on the B/C/S last four numbers 8957 which was the entry on the
8 15th of July at or after 1345 hours. I think if you find that 1345 then
9 we would be able to orientate ourselves to it and on the English
10 it's page --
11 A. Yes, I found it.
12 Q. And on English it's page 13 and then proceeding on page 14.
13 A. Yes, I can even see some additional words.
14 Q. Okay. Would you be kind enough, and I apologise for having to
15 ask you this again, to read that section again where it starts with Vuk,
16 Ikar, Pavle, so that we could get it and then we could all appreciate,
17 perhaps, what it says. Out loud if it's okay with Mr. President.
18 A. Before I start reading this out, when it says 1345 well could I
19 start reading out from there? It says:
20 "Vuk spoke to Zukov again and agreed on a truce."
21 Then supposedly there were to be negotiations. Later he fired a
22 shell, 1 for 1. Igman, Igman 1. Put to all fighting, 1410 hours. Then
23 it goes on:
24 "Vuk-Ikar-Pavle, I spoke to Semso (Vuk)," so he spoke to him,
25 "and stopped the action. They care for the head of the column
1 (soldiers). I suggested that he release all of those from the central
2 prison in Tuzla
3 mandate for negotiations or authority to negotiate." So this word
4 "mandate" is not a word that I previously saw it in the copy.
5 Q. I think they got it in English so thank you for that.
6 Sir, with respect to this now having looked at the original, what
7 Vuk and Pavle are talking about is an exchange of prisoners to exchange
8 the prisoners that the BiH had for the prisoners that the Zvornik Brigade
9 had. When they talk about:
10 "I suggested him to release all those from the prison and we
11 would release these."
12 It doesn't say you'd open the column or create a corridor for the
13 column to pass, he's specifically talking about POWs, isn't he?
14 A. That's your interpretation, but I absolutely disagree with it.
15 Q. Okay. And basically it's because at that time, you were under
16 the impression that you had no prisoners on the 15th of July at
17 approximately or after 1345 hours; correct?
18 A. Well, that's correct, I didn't know -- I didn't even have any
19 prisoners, Mr. Ostojic, someone else had on the 13th, 14th and 15th. I
20 didn't ...
21 Q. I'm not suggesting that you did personally, sir, and I'm just
22 saying that maybe the Zvornik Brigade didn't tell you because it looks
23 like they didn't give you a lot of information, and they didn't keep you
24 well informed or abreast of everything that was happening, especially
25 when you see the involvement of this Colonel Dragomir Vasic with the
1 6th Battalion from time to time. So I just want to clarify this point
2 one more time.
3 Maybe this person, Vuk, and maybe this guy, Pavle, knew, but you
4 didn't; but they're talking pretty clearly here it seems to me about
5 exchanging prisoners.
6 A. Here, they're talking about a column, about the column. They
7 were talking about leaving the column. I didn't know who was in the
8 central prison in Tuzla
9 something about that as he was a policeman.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
11 Now, you told us when you were -- in 1993, you also negotiated a
12 passage of a column at that time, again I think you said without having
13 the authority to do that from the higher or corps command or Main Staff;
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes, as in this case.
16 Q. We'll get to that. And you weren't -- were you at all
17 reprimanded, disciplined as a result, in 1993, of opening this column?
18 A. I quite simply didn't want to fire on the column, and I didn't
19 want to prevent it from passing through. I let it pass through.
20 Q. No, what I'm asking you did the corps or the Main Staff or any
21 military organisation reprimand, discipline, or sanction you in any way
22 for opening a column which wasn't authorised?
23 A. No. At that time, they didn't even know anything about the
24 circumstances under which all of this occurred.
25 Q. Okay. I know it's late, but I don't mean like right that day or
1 that next day, I mean ultimately, a week, a month, a year later when they
2 found out, or maybe they still don't know. But they -- at no time were
3 you ever disciplined or reprimanded or sanctioned as a result of opening
4 up a corridor in 1993; is that correct?
5 A. No, I wasn't officially sanctioned punished or reprimanded. It
6 was war and they needed me while the fighting continued.
7 Q. Well I'll let you or someone else talk about this official or
8 unofficial stuff. In fact, after that you were promoted from major to
9 Lieutenant-Colonel, were you not? That was from 1993 you were a major,
10 and then you were promoted to lieutenant-colonel on June 23rd, 1994?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I think, Mr. Pandurevic, that they didn't reprimand sanction or
13 discipline you in any way because they agreed with your decision; would
14 that be right?
15 A. Well, the decision was taken by myself, it had been carried out
16 and after the event, there was nothing they could do to prevent that from
18 Q. In November of 1993, did the Zvornik Brigade negotiate a truce
19 and a prisoners exchange? And again, sir, November 1993?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many prisoners at that time did the Zvornik Brigade have?
22 A. I can't remember. I think there were two or three prisoners who
23 were captured in the immediate vicinity of the front. I can't remember
24 all the details now.
25 Q. Well, do you remember if the enemy side gave you a list of
1 persons it was interested in for exchange?
2 A. Well, I'm not sure. I think we had two of their prisoners and
3 they had one of our men, and we organised an exchange. That should be in
4 the documents somewhere. They were prisoners who were captured at the
5 front line itself.
6 Q. Was there ever a temporary battalion set up for combat operations
7 in Rocevic?
8 A. A temporary battalion didn't exist in Rocevic. At the beginning
9 of 1995, we trained men. We would take young soldiers to that area and
10 train them there. There was never a temporary battalion there. There
11 were soldiers from all battalions in that area.
12 Q. Thank you for that. And that special -- or that scheduled
13 training for combat operations, you conducted that in Rocevic as well as
14 in Orahovac; correct?
15 A. I can remember that in Rocevic, the features were such that it
16 was possible for us to provide the training we wanted to provide, and I
17 was there for a while and followed the training provided.
18 Q. What about Orahovac?
19 A. As for Orahovac, I'm not sure. When the line in Memici was
20 taken, I know that a unit was established or set up and went to Memici to
21 the line, but as for training in Orahovac, no, I can't remember anything
22 about that.
23 Q. I'll ask a couple more questions before we break. Whose zone or
24 area of responsibility was that in Rocevic where the scheduled training
25 for combat operations was being conducted?
1 A. We provided training. We weren't involved in combat operations
2 there. It wasn't a training ground. It was a state-owned land.
3 Q. Let me just show you quickly because we only have a few minutes
4 7D454, and I think you've seen this document, it's a report dated the
5 11th of November 1993 signed by Nenad Simic. And I think we looked at it
6 to see that he was the assistant commander for moral guidance, religious
7 and legal affairs, and I have the B/C/S hard copy if you'd like, but I
8 don't know that it's necessary because I'm sure it's in e-court.
9 Sir, I just want you to see the first page there, and then if you
10 look under paragraph 3, in English it would be the second. Page, it
11 talks about training of the temporary battalion. I didn't read your
12 report, but it seems to have a temporary battalion there and then it
13 talks and I'll let you catch up so you can answer the question. But it
14 says in the first sentence and I'll read it:
15 "The scheduled training for combat operations of the newly-formed
16 temporary battalion is underway in Rocevic and Orahovac."
17 A. Yes, I can see that training was to take place in Orahovac too
18 and I don't remember that training there. I remember Rocevic. Well, I
19 know that there are no good features in Orahovac which would make it
20 possible for the kind of training that we wanted to be provided, to be
22 MR. OSTOJIC: Thank you, Mr. Pandurevic. I have about,
23 Mr. Pandurevic, so you know as well, approximately an hour and a half but
24 no -- I don't believe any more. I'll try to shorten it when I look at
25 this and to the extent that I can conclude in short order, I would on
1 Monday, if acceptable. Thank you, sir.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course that is acceptable, Mr. Ostojic. We'll
3 adjourn today, resuming Monday morning at 9.00. Thank you.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.
5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of
6 February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.