Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31836

 1                           Friday, 20 February 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Nikolic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.  Madam Registrar, could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, this is IT-05-88-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.  For the record, the accused

11     Nikolic is not present.  I am informed, Ms. Nikolic will confirm, I

12     suppose, that he's not feeling well and that a waiver is on its way; is

13     that correct?

14             MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, my client is

15     ill, and I believe that during the first session, we shall receive the

16     waiver from the detention unit so that we can proceed in his absence.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  As far as your presentation is

18     concerned, I notice the absence of Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Sarapa, and

19     Mr. Krgovic.

20             Good morning to you, Mr. Pandurevic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Mr. Ostojic.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Unless there are preliminaries, which I'm not

25     informed of you, in any case, you may continue with your

Page 31837

 1     cross-examination.  Do you think you will finish today?

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  The plan is to try my best, but I think I may just

 3     need a session or so on Monday but if I do finish we'll know sooner,

 4     closer to the end of the day, I would suspect but I'm hoping to get done.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  And Mr. Pandurevic, if you keep your

 6     answers more succinct, I think it will help Mr. Ostojic end yourself,

 7     finish with his cross-examination and also for the rest of the week

 8     today.  So let's start.

 9                           WITNESS: VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic: [Continued]

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, sir.  Can we please have P378 back, we

13     kind of ended with that late last night, which is, I don't know, it's

14     called sometimes a war diary but it's the log book; and if we could have

15     the assistant of the usher to give Mr. Pandurevic the original that would

16     be helpful with leave of Court.

17        Q.   Now, as you are getting this -- good morning, Mr. Pandurevic, I'm

18     sorry.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   Receiving this book here, yesterday, we kind of covered late that

21     there were two entries that were missing of quite significant dates, the

22     13th and 14th; is that correct?  Of July, 1995, sorry.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, can you -- if you look at this and I know you're not a

25     handwriting expert and we've had some come through this courtroom, do you

Page 31838

 1     know who was making the entries on the 12th of July and the 15th?  Can

 2     you tell just by looking at it if they signed it?  I think in the column

 3     on each page towards the right-hand side there might be a signature and

 4     some entries which indicate who the author was.

 5        A.   Yes, it says Milan Maric on the 12th, and as for the 15th, I

 6     think this is the signature of Drago Nikolic.

 7        Q.   And do you know who was supposed to maintain those records for

 8     the 13th and 14th?

 9        A.   I said yesterday, Sreten Milosevic and Dragan Jokic were supposed

10     to do that.

11        Q.   Forgive me because it was late last night --

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, Mr. President, could we have the B/C/S page

14     displayed on the screen, please.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can we do that?  Could you give us the reference?

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's a little difficult because those pages are

17     missing, but he can reference the 12th of July, and then, I think, also

18     the 15th if they want to look at both; but in the English version it's

19     simply page 1 through 5 but on the B/C/S version, I think Mr. Pandurevic

20     would be able to assist us if he could just read out perhaps the ERN

21     number of the page on the 12th but before the 15th of July then we can

22     maybe get that up.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last three digits are 689.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, sir.  I'm just waiting so it comes up so

25     everyone can catch up.  Thank you.

Page 31839

 1        Q.   Now, sir, just so that I'm correct, this is a book that was kept

 2     and maintained in the ordinary course of business at the Zvornik Brigade

 3     command, correct, as opposed to the IKM?

 4        A.   This is a log book of the operations duty officer to be filled in

 5     with the duty officer for a particular day.  There are no missing pages

 6     here, rather, there are no entries relating to the 12th, 13th and 14th.

 7        Q.   You're right about that.  I misspoke because that other book had

 8     missing pages but we'll get to that in a second.  This one there are just

 9     no entries for the 13th and 14th, you're right.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   But my question is this was kept at the forward command post;

12     correct?

13        A.   No, this was kept in the cupboard of the duty operations officer

14     in the barracks.

15        Q.   How far away was that from the forward command post?

16        A.   About 20 kilometres.

17        Q.   Also what's curious to me is the entry on the 16th.  Did you find

18     it or was that one missing as well?  I think it's missing actually so ...

19        A.   Yes, it's missing.  Nobody filled it in.

20        Q.   Do you know why?

21        A.   I don't know.  Milorad Trbic was the duty operations officer and

22     why he failed to make any entries, I don't know.

23        Q.   Same question for the 13th and 14th.  Do you know why, since you

24     seem to recall that it was Jokic, and I forget who the other person that

25     you mentioned that was the duty officer for the 14th, why did they fail

Page 31840

 1     to make any entries in this book for the 13th and 14th of July?

 2        A.   As I said yesterday, I can only speculate.  I don't know the

 3     reasons why.

 4        Q.   Who is Petko Pavlovic?

 5        A.   I'm not sure.  He may have been someone from the MUP judging by

 6     his last name, but I'm not sure if you can help me.

 7        Q.   I will.  He was a guy who Colonel Dragomir Vasic wanted to

 8     appoint in Srebrenica as the police chief for Srebrenica when they were

 9     living with Miroslav Deronjic and others, but we'll get his document; how

10     about Nenad Simic, who was he?

11        A.   Major Nenad Simic was in the command of the Zvornik Brigade.

12        Q.   What command did he hold or which battalion or unit?

13        A.   He was the assistant commander for moral guidance, religious and

14     legal affairs.

15        Q.   For what period of time?

16        A.   I cannot say exactly.  He was definitely there in July and

17     sometime before that.  A few people held this position but I think he was

18     the one who stayed longest.

19        Q.   He stayed there in 1993 as well, didn't he?

20        A.   I think that he came sometime in 1993.  He was a refugee from

21     Central Bosnia or from Mount Ozren, he may have come even earlier though.

22        Q.   Let's just quickly look at 7D454, please.  This, sir, as it's

23     coming up is a document dated the 11th of November, 1993, that purports

24     to be signed by Captain First Class Nenad Simic assistant commander for

25     morale, guidance and religious affairs.  I think if you see the date on

Page 31841

 1     the top of the first page then if we could please move to the second page

 2     where the signature is.

 3        A.   Yes, somebody signed this on behalf of Nenad Simic.

 4        Q.   So, I mean, it's really not a point of my question but you

 5     recognise it's not his signature, right?

 6        A.   Yes, I see the word "for" added and this is also not his

 7     signature.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now my point is from 1993 November through July of

 9     1993, was he your assistant commander in the Zvornik Brigade for moral

10     guidance, religious and legal affairs?

11        A.   Yes, I think he was holding that position throughout the whole

12     period.

13        Q.   Help me understand this:  When did you want or have a desire to

14     appoint Colonel Dragomir Vasic to be in that position?

15        A.   Never.

16        Q.   Did he ever hold that position, that is, Dragomir Vasic?

17        A.   Never at the command of the Zvornik Brigade.

18        Q.   At any other brigade or command?

19        A.   I don't know about that.

20        Q.   Because -- and I'm sorry I don't have the transcript, and I'm

21     going to be brief about this, and I appreciate the Court's indulgence as

22     well as my colleagues'.  I thought yesterday you had mentioned

23     Dragomir Vasic being demobilised and that at one point he was in what

24     command or brigade before he was demobilised and went to the MUP; do you

25     know?

Page 31842

 1        A.   He had been with the 6th Battalion but that battalion had a

 2     different numerical designation at the time.  I wanted to appoint him the

 3     assistant for that battalion not the brigade.

 4        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.

 5             Now, we've talked as we've seen in the last two and a half or

 6     three years that there were quite a few people with the first name Ljubo

 7     or a derivative of that name.  Now we know that just from looking at some

 8     of your testimony and the records here there was a Ljubo Bojanovic, that

 9     we spent a little bit of time talking about yesterday, and I'm sure we'll

10     get back to him.  Do you remember any other Ljubos in the Zvornik Brigade

11     in July of 1995?

12        A.   At the moment, I cannot remember any other name in the command of

13     the Zvornik Brigade apart from Ljubo Bojanovic.  Maybe it's best if we

14     looked at the list of the officers in the command so that we can be sure.

15        Q.   We'll get through that.  Who is Ljubo Bijatovic?

16        A.   There was a man called Bejatovic.  He was the commander of the

17     7th Battalion in July 1995 but I cannot remember his first name.  I don't

18     think it was Ljubo.  I think his first name was Drago.

19        Q.   I did see a reference in one of the paperwork calling him Drago

20     as well.  How about Ljubislav Strbac, do you remember him at all?

21        A.   His name was Ljubisav Strbac, and we used to call him Strki.

22        Q.   And what was his position in July of 1995 to the best of your

23     recollection?

24        A.   He was the assistant of the Chief of Staff for organisation,

25     mobilisation personnel affairs for a certain period of time.  I think he

Page 31843

 1     was attached to that organ at the time.

 2        Q.   How about one of the people on your witness list, Ljubo Eric,

 3     what was he in July of 1995, you remember him, of course.  He's one of

 4     your witnesses; right?

 5        A.   I remember him.  He was with the 2nd Romanija.  He was the

 6     commander of the combat group in Krivaja 95 operation.

 7        Q.   And what other position did he hold in July of 1995 other than he

 8     was commander of a combat group in Krivaja 95.  After or before that

 9     operation, what was his title, if you will?

10        A.   I really don't know.  He was with the 2nd Romanija Brigade and I

11     don't know which positions he held as per establishment.

12        Q.   What was the name of Obrenovic's driver again?  Do you remember

13     his name or at least his first name?

14        A.   Ljubisa Danojlovic.

15        Q.   And who is Ljubo Dejanovic.  Do you remember him at all?

16        A.   This last name doesn't sound familiar to me, probably it was

17     mispronounced, therefore, I don't know.

18        Q.   It happens a lot to me.  It's actually in an entry I came across

19     it, but we'll talk about it a little later.

20             Any other Ljubos that you can think of other than these six or

21     seven that we've mentioned thus far because -- or a derivative of either

22     Ljubisa or Ljubislav or Ljubomir or any of those types that you could ...

23        A.   Ljubo Beara, perhaps.

24        Q.   Any others that you can remember?

25        A.   Ljubo Sobot.

Page 31844

 1        Q.   And we talked about him.  He is the food with the intercept that

 2     earlier the Prosecution alleged that it was Ljubisa Beara that was on

 3     that intercept and then later other evidence showed that it was actually

 4     Ljubo Sobot, we believe, and dealing with Mladic and some food and what

 5     not.  So we talked about him in the trial.

 6             Anyone else that you can come up with?

 7        A.   Ljubisa Simic, the president of the Bratunac municipality.

 8        Q.   That's a good point.  He came here.  Is he related in any way to

 9     Nenad Simic, the guy who was your commander or assistant commander for

10     legal, religious and moral affairs?

11        A.   I don't think so.  I was not interested in those relations.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.

13             Now, in sticking with P378, I believe, that you have in front of

14     you, I'd like to go over a couple entries that are actually made in the

15     book.  We know we can't go over the 13th, 14th and 16th, but before I go

16     on to those entries, can you tell me why, after the 15th or I'm sorry the

17     17th of July -- strike that.

18             Why, sir, after the 18th of July, does the entire month get

19     skipped as well as August and then entries start to appear in September?

20     Do you have any reason or do you know why that would happen?

21        A.   I can see August here.

22        Q.   In my version we go from July 18th and you can help us with that

23     and all of a sudden the next entry is the 16th of the 9th month and then

24     below that the 17th of the 9th month and so on so ...

25        A.   The 18th of July, the 19th of July, 21st, 23rd, 24th of July and

Page 31845

 1     so on and so forth.

 2        Q.   If you look on the English version, it may be just a mistake it

 3     just shows the 9th of the 16th and 17th, but thank you for that.

 4             Let's turn to the 11th of July, 1995The 11th of July, 1995,

 5     please, on Exhibit P378 if you could open it and take a look at it.  We

 6     do have that actual entry, so I'd like to ask you a couple questions

 7     about that.

 8        A.   I'm sorry.  I thought you were going to ask me something about

 9     the 11th.

10        Q.   I am, actually, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the book.

11             Now, focussing your attention on this page, and I think we're

12     going to try it get it up on B/C/S, and, Mr. Pandurevic, if you could

13     also just help me out by giving us the last three numbers --

14        A.   688, the last three digits are 688.

15        Q.   Thank you very much.  For the entry of the 11th of July, 1995,

16     who made those entries, to the best of your understanding, looking at the

17     signature block, I guess.

18        A.   I think that the entries on the 11th were made by

19     Ljubo Bojanovic.

20        Q.   Okay.  And if we could scroll down to the bottom of the page in

21     the English version, the entry of 2030 hours, do you see that?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Can you read it for us, please, the entry in that short block of

24     four lines?

25        A.   Yes, I can:

Page 31846

 1             "Chief ordered wake up call for all units at 0400 hours and the

 2     commanders are to report at 0400 hours and brief about the situation in

 3     the battalions."

 4        Q.   Who is the chief that Ljubo Bojanovic is referring to there?

 5        A.   Ljubo Bojanovic was probably referring to Dragan Obrenovic.

 6        Q.   He wasn't referring to you; right?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Because you weren't there; right?

 9        A.   I wasn't.

10        Q.   I'm just pointing it out because sometimes Ljubo Bojanovic can

11     make a mistake, and he would say instead of Chief of Staff he would put

12     the commander; and this might be a little misleading at least because it

13     may be indicative that you came back to Zvornik on the 11th of July and

14     then you asked for a wake up call, and you wanted these commanders to

15     report to a briefing in the battalions.  I mean, without your testimony

16     we wouldn't know that this is really -- that it was Dragan Obrenovic that

17     he really means even though he's passed away, and we don't have his

18     testimony on that point; correct?

19        A.   It's probably wrong translation.  My name is not mentioned

20     anywhere here.  Chief means Dragan Obrenovic and later on, when they say

21     commander, that refers to battalion commanders to be woken up and report

22     about the situation in the battalions.  It was not any mistake on Ljubo's

23     part, I am not mentioned anywhere here.

24        Q.   You were the chief of the Zvornik Brigade, were you not?

25        A.   No, I was the commander.  Nobody called me chief.  I didn't like

Page 31847

 1     that word at all.  It's not a military term.

 2        Q.   If we look at the entry on the 12th of July made by a different

 3     person, I think Milan Maric at 1310 hours, he's more explicit, and he

 4     says at 1300 hours, the Chief of Staff had ordered certain things; do you

 5     see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Ljubo Bojanovic could have written it on the 11th of July, Chief

 8     of Staff, could he not?

 9        A.   Well, yes, but he used the word "chief" more often.

10        Q.   Now just help me with this as we're scrolling down through this

11     document.  It's here at the 12th of July, the entry at 1630 hours; do you

12     see that?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Now, this talks about a military police platoon with the

15     Commander Jasikovac went to carry out the task; do you see that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Who ordered this?

18        A.   I don't know.  I see that the Chief of Staff had ordered, so it

19     came from above.  So this probably refers to this platoon as well.

20        Q.   Okay.  A couple more questions, if you don't mind, to clarify on

21     this document.  And then if we can please look at the next page which is

22     the 15th of July, 1995.  Because again as you remember the 13th and 14th

23     were not recorded.  Okay.

24             Now, here there is an entry that I'd like to discuss with you at

25     1350 hours and I direct your attention to that.

Page 31848

 1        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 2        Q.   Basically I'm going to read it in English but you can read it for

 3     us if you like.  It says:

 4             "Some elements of unit returned from Zepa, and they joined the

 5     action of blocking and destroying the group of Turks."

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Now, does it say anywhere there about your order or your mission

 9     or your goal that Krstic gave you that we talked about yesterday at 1041

10     or 10.00 on the 15th of July to capture anybody?  Does it reference that

11     at all in this entry?

12        A.   You've simplified Krstic's order.

13        Q.   Well, sir, let me just stop you for a second.  I didn't simplify

14     it.  You completely ignored it when you gave your direct evidence, so I'm

15     just now going to talk to you about specifically the things he shared

16     with you, so forgive me for telling you but I'm not simplified it.  It's

17     in the order, you got it both orally and you got it in writing, so share

18     with me that?

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, stop arguing the way you are and with

20     the tone you are with the witness, please.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:

22        Q.   Can you answer, Mr. Pandurevic?

23        A.   I can, Mr. Ostojic, I'm trying to provide brief answers

24     instructed by the Chamber, but your questions are three times longer than

25     my answers.

Page 31849

 1             I don't dispute what Krstic ordered.  I was quite clear about

 2     that, but you're just focussing on some sort of arrest and detention.  I

 3     didn't arrest anyone, and I didn't take anyone in and you can't arrest a

 4     division.

 5        Q.   I don't even know what that means to be very honest with you,

 6     Mr. Pandurevic, but I'm sure that your lawyer will clarify it on

 7     re-direct or at any time.

 8             I'm asking you this:  Did Krstic give you an oral --

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Don't be sure of that.  If you're not clear about

10     it you can ask questions yourself.  You have no guarantee that Mr. Haynes

11     will clear it up for you.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you for that, Mr. President, I appreciate

13     that.

14        Q.   Sir, did Krstic give you an order to block, destroy, and/or

15     capture the Muslims that were coming from Srebrenica?

16        A.   He assigned me a task, and I was to block the penetration of the

17     28th Division and the joining up of that division with the forces of the

18     2nd Corps.

19        Q.   And that was the extent of his order to you and your assignment;

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes.

22        Q.   He didn't mention anything about capturing anybody?

23        A.   Well, in the course of the battle perhaps someone would have been

24     captured, that's what happened subsequently from the 28th onwards.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  From the 18th, interpreter's correction.  From

Page 31850

 1     the 18th onwards.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:

 3        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, maybe it was a poor translation or an unartful

 4     question on my part.  I'm not asking you what could have happened, I'm

 5     asking you did Krstic verbally, orally and/or in writing tell you that

 6     you should capture the Bosnian Muslims that are escaping from Srebrenica

 7     and going through Zvornik?  And this is a good chance where you could

 8     just say yes or no.

 9        A.   The order had to do with that too, that they weren't prisoners

10     who had previously been brought to Zvornik, you want to link this up but

11     that's not what it's about.  These people had already been arrested and

12     you know who did that, just as I do.

13        Q.   Those people who were arrested and detained, do you know that the

14     civilian authorities were the ones who brought them from Bratunac to

15     Zvornik, and it was your military police, sir, from Zvornik Brigade who

16     brought them from Bratunac to Zvornik.  Do you know that?  Or are you

17     denying that as well?

18        A.   I'm not denying that I heard about those matters, and I have

19     testified about them; but I don't know who brought those people to

20     Bratunac and then who organised a column and an escort and who took those

21     people to Zvornik, nor do I know why they chose to take them to Zvornik;

22     but I'm sure that there are people here who can be quite explicit about

23     what happened and provide you can clear statements.

24        Q.   Did you ever talk to one of your buddies, Colonel Dragomir Vasic,

25     as to what he thought his role was because I know you spent an awful lot

Page 31851

 1     of time talking about parallel events, and let's look at where

 2     Mr. Pandurevic was and then let's look at a log book that may support it.

 3             What about the MUP documents?  Did you look parallel to that or

 4     even ask Dragomir Vasic what he knew about the prisoners in 1995?  Did

 5     you do that at all?

 6        A.   Vasic and I are not friends, not in the way that you think.  I

 7     didn't have any MUP documents, and I didn't examine them.  I didn't speak

 8     to Vasic about his activities during that period of time.  I heard about

 9     all this parallel events as we've been calling them on the basis of a

10     report on Dragan Obrenovic and on the basis of documents from the Zvornik

11     Brigade.

12        Q.   Right.  But wait a second, you did talk to him during that period

13     because you even told us that you met with him on the 15th of July when

14     you came from the Srebrenica general area, if I can call it that, back to

15     the -- to the command post in Zvornik, he was actually in Obrenovic's

16     office and you ran into him there.  So you did see him at least on the

17     15th; right?

18        A.   Well, I saw him.  I knew that tasks were to control the territory

19     and to provide security for Serbian villages.  I assumed that that's what

20     they did and he did, in fact, do that.

21        Q.   How do you know if you never talked to him that he did, in fact,

22     do that?  Did you talk to him or didn't you talk to him?

23        A.   Well that was his task, his regular task.  He must have done it

24     and I could see from the documents from his reports it's stated where his

25     units were engaged, where they had been deployed.

Page 31852

 1        Q.   Okay.  Do you know what his assignment was on July 13th through

 2     15th, 1995?

 3        A.   I know on the basis of the documents that we can see now here or,

 4     rather, the documents that I saw in the course of these proceedings.

 5        Q.   What was it?  What was his assignment?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, you've referred to his documents most

 7     frequently had to do with providing security for roads, for direct access

 8     routes to the town of Zvornik and had to do with establishing or setting

 9     up checkpoints and so on and so forth.

10        Q.   What about one of the documents on the 15th where he says killing

11     8.000 Bosnian Muslims; do you remember that at all or did that kind of

12     slip?

13        A.   I don't think it was on the 15th.  I think that document was

14     dated the 13th.

15        Q.   If you really look at my question, that's why I said from the

16     13th to the 15th, do you know what his assignment was?  Who gave him the

17     assignment to kill Bosnian Muslims?

18        A.   I don't know whether anyone gave him such an assignment, nor do I

19     know whether he killed those Muslims; but I remember an intercept where

20     one co-accused said these people from the MUP don't want to do anything.

21     I don't know what he had in mind.  And Vasic in those reports emphasised

22     the role that the MUP played, and he emphasised his own role as if he was

23     the only player in the field and no one else.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now when you say player in the field, I just want to make

25     sure I don't step all over your unique distinction between zone of

Page 31853

 1     defence and zone of responsibility.  What field are you talking about,

 2     sir?  Is it in the field of the zone of defence that you've shared with

 3     us or is it the broader area of the zone of responsibility that the

 4     Prosecution claims that the Zvornik Brigade had, which field?

 5        A.   The zone of defence of the Zvornik Brigade was the one we saw on

 6     the map and it's where the soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade were deployed.

 7     All other territory outside that area which is inhabited by people who

 8     are involved in their daily activities, well for the control and order of

 9     that territory, there was just the MUP, that was their responsibility if

10     enemy forces appeared in the area, if there were infiltrated and if they

11     engaged in combat then the brigade would be activated to prevent such

12     events from occurring.

13        Q.   Did Miroslav Deronjic ever come to the Zvornik Brigade in

14     July of 1993?

15        A.   1993?

16        Q.   I'm sorry.  Thank you.  1995.

17        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I didn't see him.

18        Q.   Well we'll go into an entry which has his name in one of your

19     duty officers' books on the 17th or 18th of July in a few minutes here.

20             Do you know that in July of 1995, President Karadzic appointed

21     him to be some commissioner for Srebrenica?  Are you familiar with that?

22        A.   The first part that you mentioned I remember.  In the log book

23     for the 17th, it said that Miroslav Deronjic wanted me to release some

24     communications officers to the command or the Chief of Staff for

25     something to do with the PTT or communications.  I can't remember

Page 31854

 1     receiving that note.  I don't remember, or I didn't know what position he

 2     held at the time that he had been appointed to be civilian commissioner

 3     by the president.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And we all know, but just to make sure that you know, you

 5     know that Miroslav Deronjic came from Bratunac; correct?

 6        A.   I know that he lived in Bratunac.  He was probably born somewhere

 7     around there.

 8        Q.   You told us about a meeting that you had with Krstic, and I think

 9     you even said Mladic in Bratunac in July of 1995.  Was Deronjic at that

10     meeting as well?

11        A.   On the 11th, at that meeting of the command of the Bratunac

12     Brigade, well at that meeting, only soldiers were present.

13        Q.   And just to the best of your recollection, I know it's been a few

14     years, but do you know approximately what time that meeting was on the

15     11th of July?

16        A.   Well, that's a well-known historical fact now, it was around 2200

17     hours.

18        Q.   Let's look at Exhibit 1D690, please.  If we can also have the

19     B/C/S version or -- looks like we don't have a B/C/S version but we can

20     all read on paragraph number 4, and I'll read it out loud so you can get

21     the full thing.  This looks like it's a decision from

22     Dr. Radovan Karadzic dated the 11th of July, 1995, and really I wanted to

23     ask you about -- I mean we can talk about any portion of it, but I want

24     to highlight paragraph 4, if you don't mind because it says, paragraph 4

25     here:

Page 31855

 1             "The commissioner shall ensure that all civilian and military

 2     organs treat all citizens who participated in combat against the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska as prisoners of war, and ensure that the civilian

 4     population can freely choose where they will live or move to."

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Was there any discussion in that meeting on the 11th of July,

 8     1995, about Miroslav Deronjic and him being in charge of the prisoners of

 9     war?

10        A.   As far as I can remember, no.  I don't know when this decision

11     from the president arrived, at what time of day, and I can't see that he

12     was directly responsible for the prisoners here.  The military

13     authorities and the civilian authorities had to take joint care of the

14     prisoners and other civilians who wanted to stay or leave.

15        Q.   We'll take a look at --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, Mr. Ostojic.

17             Mr. Haynes.

18             MR. HAYNES:  Can those who don't speak English see the whole of

19     the document on the screen, please.  It's not really fair to any of them,

20     including the witness.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  I fully agree.

22             MR. HAYNES: [Overlapping speakers] ... there must be B/C/S, it is

23     originally in B/C/S.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's around, we can get it relatively easily.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's see if we can get it.

Page 31856

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  I can move away from this and come back to this

 2     exhibit for now.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  Let's look at the intercept between Karadzic and

 5     Deronjic which is P1149, and I think it's A and then the B/C/S version is

 6     P1149B.

 7        Q.   I think, Mr. Pandurevic, you may recall this exhibit since you

 8     were here during the trial.  It purports to be a intercept between

 9     Deronjic and an intermediary who's talking to Karadzic, and apparently

10     Karadzic is transferring some information between this intermediary and

11     Deronjic; and it's at 2010 hours, 2010, and when it comes up I'll give

12     you a chance to look at it.

13        A.   I remember this conversation.

14        Q.   Just so that the record is clear, Mr. Pandurevic, and to be fair

15     to you, you remember this because you saw it during the trial while you

16     were here; right?  You don't have an independent information about this

17     conversation; I'm correct about that, right?  Or do you?

18        A.   That's quite understandable.  How could I have been aware of it

19     at the time.

20        Q.   Sometimes the record is awkward, and it says some things we don't

21     necessarily mean.

22             Now here in this conversation that we discussed at this court

23     briefly, it's a conversation between, as I mentioned, Deronjic and

24     Karadzic and his intermediary; and as you can recall and as you can read

25     here it's Deronjic and Karadzic who are talking about approximately

Page 31857

 1     thousands but 2.000 Bosnian Muslims who are moving through an area and

 2     then they are discussing where they should be maintained or held.

 3             In the last couple entries where they have X and D for Deronjic

 4     and X presumably for the intermediary, it says not to put them in the

 5     warehouses but to put them somewhere else.  Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I can read out this passage as to what conclusions one draws

 7     on the basis of the passage, well, that's a matter for each individual.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, do you know where these prisoners, the 2.000 or so, I

 9     guess in the middle of it says about two for the time being after he was

10     asked how many thousands, so let's just go with the 2.000 for now.  Do

11     you know where these prisoners are at this time?

12        A.   No.  I didn't know, I didn't even know that they existed at the

13     time of this conversation.

14        Q.   Okay.  Do you know why Karadzic wants the prisoners or Deronjic

15     wants the prisoners moved from wherever they were?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Well, we know, at least historically, from some facts in this

18     case that in Bratunac, there were some that were detained and as you

19     yourself say, although I know your position clearly, it's not your

20     position because it's outside the zone of defence, that there were some

21     prisoners transferred over to Zvornik, are these the guys?  Because look

22     at the time frame, it's the 13th; and I know you're not involved in this,

23     sir, but I just wanted to see if you could maybe help us understand this

24     because you asked me earlier today, Well we know who transferred the

25     prisoners and how they were transferred.  I'm trying to help that issue

Page 31858

 1     out -- I know I'm going fast.  I'm sorry.

 2             So here we have the 13th at 2010 hours, a conversation that was

 3     captured between Deronjic and Karadzic through his intermediary and they

 4     are talking about 2.000 prisoners, and they are saying we got to put them

 5     somewhere and we've got to move them to some warehouse or put them

 6     somewhere else, could this possibly you think even remotely be the 2.000

 7     that were ultimately transferred to Zvornik in the next day or so or that

 8     evening?

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  He has already told you at the time he didn't even

10     know about their existence, how can you expect him to tell you that

11     ultimately these were the 2.000 that were sent to the Zvornik area.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  He can just tell me if he doesn't know.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  But you shouldn't ask the question.  I don't think

14     it's for him to tell you, to face you with this.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Let me try it another way.  Thank you.  I'll move

16     on.

17        Q.   Do you know where these 2.000 men ultimately ended up that

18     Deronjic and Karadzic and his intermediary are talking about, even after

19     the fact, did you ever find out what happened to these men?

20        A.   I don't know anything specific about these 2.000 whether they are

21     included in the number of people who were brought to the territory of

22     Zvornik.  But I can clarify something else, Deronjic received that

23     information about the presence of 2.000 prisoners, but I don't know from

24     whom so there was someone else.  In addition to Deronjic, who was aware

25     of this because Deronjic didn't go into the field to see how many people

Page 31859

 1     had been arrested, I don't know why he is addressing the president, why

 2     he didn't address Mladic at the same time with regard to the same issue.

 3        Q.   Did you ever talk to Mr. Deronjic before you were indicted in

 4     this case about the events that unfolded in Srebrenica?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you ever talk to Mr. Deronjic when he was detained here at

 7     the UNDU before he passed away?

 8        A.   Perhaps I saw him on two occasions when we played sports

 9     together, but I never discussed the events in Srebrenica with him.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you this, because I want to change gears

11     although talking about these civilians.  There was a lot spent about this

12     MNI issue which is the minimum number of individuals, and I know you

13     heard a lot of testimony about it through various experts, et cetera.

14             Now, when you said and when your Zvornik Brigade whether it was

15     under your command or not when they were conducting these ambushes, did

16     they attain any level of success?  Do you know if they actually killed or

17     as you say destroyed the enemy at any time in those early days of July

18     13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, even?

19        A.   To a certain extent but I don't know how successful they were.

20        Q.   I know in some of your combat -- interim combat reports and

21     combat reports it does discuss that there were huge losses or enormous

22     losses and all that, and I'm not going to go into that right now.  I want

23     to know generally speaking when those people are shot and killed, and

24     even Butler agreed those were legitimate military combat engagements so

25     he had no problem if you are in a fight like that, in the unfortunate

Page 31860

 1     event of war, but where were those people ultimately buried; do you know?

 2        A.   I agree with you that there were quite a lot of people who were

 3     killed when breaking through from Srebrenica to Tuzla, many of them

 4     remained in the forests, and that's where they were killed, as far as I

 5     have understood.  Some of the bodies that remain there were gathered and

 6     collected and buried, but I don't have precise information about this.

 7     Perhaps some of those bodies are still there in those forests.

 8        Q.   But who would, if you don't, sir, as the command of the

 9     Zvornik Brigade, who at that time would have had that best information

10     for us so he could help me with that?

11        A.   Well, it's difficult for me to help you.  If someone was killed

12     in Ravne Polje, Kamenica Crska, Udrc, Velja Glava, Snagovo in Baljkovica,

13     we would then search the field and all the bodies found in the territory

14     of Baljkovica were buried in the territory of Motovska Koso.

15        Q.   I'm aware you still have P378.  If we could just go back to that

16     entry of July 11th, 1995, and I just want to tie up a loose end, if I

17     can.

18             This is an entry that and again you corrected me, and thank you

19     for that, that I thought when I read it initially years or months ago

20     that at 2030 hours when it said chief ordered wake up call, I thought

21     they were referring to you, and that you were present at the Zvornik

22     Brigade, and you told us you weren't and I accept that.

23             Help me reconcile this because we also want to look at

24     Exhibit P322 which is a regular combat report dated July 12, 1995, and

25     you covered it a little bit on your direct.  And it seems to be with a

Page 31861

 1     block signature with your name on it, but you weren't there.  So just

 2     when we get that up, and I want to make sure that you look at it so I'm

 3     right.

 4             I'm sorry, if you could wait there so we could make sure that

 5     Mr. Pandurevic has the date.  Sir, are you following me?  We're looking

 6     at Exhibit P378, the late July 11th entry which says:

 7             "Chief ordered a wake-up call at 4.00 and that the commanders are

 8     to report in order to get a brief of the situation."

 9             And then we are looking at the next day of the regular combat

10     report dated July 12th, 1995 and you are welcome to look at the whole

11     report, but just if we can look at the second page which I believe has

12     your block or third page -- forgive me, no, I was right the first time,

13     the second page.  Yes they put it up on B/C/S, I'm waiting for the

14     English, sorry about that.

15             Do you see that, sir?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And just reconcile it because if I look at these two documents

18     because I was in error before, and I just want to make sure the court

19     doesn't see it incorrectly either.  Although it says chief in this P378

20     that I was an order for commanders to come there and despite the fact

21     that we have this other document that has your printed block on it, it

22     has nothing to do with you, you weren't there at all; correct?

23        A.   I wasn't there, and there was the duty officers who inscribed the

24     name of the chief, someone inscribed my name and this shows that one

25     didn't know the rules.  Those who weren't professionals -- well because

Page 31862

 1     someone wasn't professional someone might be held criminally responsible.

 2     Now I should have said deputy commander here.  And Dragan Obrenovic, in

 3     the 14th in his report, it says the Chief of Staff, the Major,

 4     Dragan Obrenovic.

 5        Q.   I did look at the 14th and I also looked at the 13th.  That

 6     report has again your name on it even though you weren't there on the

 7     12th or the 13th of July; correct?  And we can go if you'd like really

 8     quickly we don't even have to go that quickly, 325, P325, please.

 9             Mr. Pandurevic, I don't take issue with you not being there and I

10     just know that sometimes what's written is a mistake, and that's why we'd

11     just like to clarify it; and I think there is quite a few mistakes but

12     we'll talk about that probably later.

13             So let's look at P325.  Here also is yet another example -- I'm

14     sorry, and then if we could have the next page with the signature block

15     and this is a daily combat report.

16        A.   Yes, it's the same thing.  We had some reports where the name of

17     the operations officer, operations duty officer and the commander were

18     signed, but when they were there and when they weren't; so these people

19     were acting automatically.  It was through inertia that it was done in

20     this way, and they didn't understand military rules.

21        Q.   Now since we have P325 there, who was -- who wrote this report or

22     who sent it out with your name block on it?  Which was the individual?

23        A.   If this is the 13th of July, SM, that could be Sreten Milosevic.

24        Q.   How about the one before that on P322, which is the July 12th

25     regular combat report?

Page 31863

 1        A.   I haven't got it.

 2        Q.   They'll bring it up.  It just takes a little time sometimes.

 3     P322, I'm sorry.

 4        A.   Can I see page 2 in the Serbian, please.  I think that this MM

 5     stands for Milan Maric, but it's not very clear.

 6        Q.   Okay.  But are those Sreten Milosevic and Milan Maric, although

 7     it's not clear, were they reliable type of soldiers in your

 8     Zvornik Brigade at that time in July of 1995?

 9        A.   They were as they were.  Those were reserve officers,

10     Sreten Milosevic was assistant for logistics, he was an economist.  He

11     was familiar, quite familiar with the job whereas on the other hand, he

12     wasn't so familiar with military rules and regulations.

13             Maric finished the faculty for All People's Defence, so,

14     therefore, he was not involved in the procedures and things that we

15     professional military personnel were skilled and trained for.

16        Q.   Now let me go to the July 16th, 1995 day and the issues that you

17     talked a little bit about.

18             On July 16th, 1995, did Ljubo Bojanovic ever tell you anything

19     about vehicles from Banja Luka coming and going to the school in

20     Orahovac?  Did he tell you anything about that?

21        A.   I cannot remember any specific contact with him at the moment,

22     but I think there is a note in the work log that Ljubo reported that a

23     truck came from the 16th Krajina Company and that he was to send it to

24     Orahovac, if that's what you are referring to.

25        Q.   That is what I'm referring to.  How about Obrenovic, did he on

Page 31864

 1     the 16th of July, 1995, tell you or ask you about the men who came from

 2     Bratunac who were in Orahovac and asking you for instructions as to what

 3     to do with those men?  Did you ever have that discussion with Obrenovic

 4     on July 16th, 1995?

 5        A.   As far as I can remember, I sent Obrenovic to meet this company

 6     from the 16th Krajina Corps to give them the task.  It might happen that

 7     in the meantime, soldiers from the Bratunac Brigade turn up as well and

 8     Obrenovic asked me what to do with them.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well let's take a look at Exhibit 377, which again, is one

10     of those duty officer notebooks or log books; and if we can, with the

11     Court's permission, the usher's assistance have the Prosecutor give

12     Mr. Pandurevic the original and again it's 377.

13             Sir, I'm going to direct your attention ERN 0293-5771, so the

14     last four numbers are 5771.

15        A.   Yes, I can see that page.

16        Q.   And let me just help here and get caught up myself.  We have, if

17     the Court remembers, the English translation which was, I think, made

18     with certain markings on the side, yes, I know you have it, I just want

19     to make sure, which were actually later added to identify who individuals

20     were.

21             I'm looking at the entry with the ERN on the bottom 5769, and in

22     the middle of that entry, it says:

23             "Men from Bratunac are in Orahovac.  Obrenovic asked the

24     commander what to do with them at 1920 hours."

25             Did you see that, sir?

Page 31865

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Now, did Obrenovic ask you -- I mean he's talking about the

 3     commander, would that be you on the 16th of July, 1995?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And so although little slightly different I'm not going to

 6     question what -- from what you told us just moments ago regarding this

 7     issue, it was Obrenovic who asked you and told you about these men from

 8     Bratunac, did he not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What was he asking?  What do you mean by or what did he mean by

11     "what to do with them"?

12        A.   I don't remember details but probably he referred whether they

13     should be joined with the men from Krajina or should they be sent to

14     another axis, I'm not sure.  I think that later on they joined the

15     battalion in the area of Crni Vrh.

16        Q.   At the time at 1920 hours on July 16th, 1995, did you ask

17     Obrenovic what the men from Bratunac were doing in Orahovac?

18        A.   I didn't ask Obrenovic about what they were doing there.  I think

19     there is also a note about the time when they arrived.  What I knew was

20     that the soldiers from Krajina were arriving, and Obrenovic was sent

21     there to receive them.  So at that time, he must have also come across

22     the soldiers from the Bratunac Brigade; and, therefore, he asked me what

23     to do with them.

24        Q.   So he didn't tell you anything that these men were Bratunac were

25     in Orahovac because they were involved in any executions or detention of

Page 31866

 1     POWs, did he?

 2        A.   These men didn't take part in the executions.  These men came to

 3     assist, and they were deployed on the road at Crni Vrh.

 4        Q.   Now, if we look at the next page or two in English, it's actually

 5     on the lower portion same date, 16th July, last four numbers 5771 with

 6     ERN, and it starts, sir, with 2210 hours, the entry there, the fifth line

 7     down.  After there is a brief discussion with Pilica, do you see Pilica,

 8     at 0800 hours.  Maybe I can ...

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now that entry, the first one here:

11             "At 2210 hours," it goes on to say they are talking about a

12     loader and excavator and a dump truck, and it should be going to Pilica

13     at 8.00; do you see that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Now, this says that it was conveyed to Jokic and Milosevic; and I

16     think those are Dragan Jokic and Sreten Milosevic; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now these are two individuals that you had talked to on the

19     16th of July -- well --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I almost said 15th, and we wouldn't want to mess up the record.

22     You didn't talk to him on the 15th, but you talked to him on the

23     16th of July, 1995.  Did they share with you that they were sending these

24     excavators and loaders and dump trucks to Pilica when you talked to him

25     on the 16th of July, 1995?

Page 31867

 1        A.   Where did you acquire this information that I talked to them on

 2     the 16th?

 3        Q.   Okay.  I thought you said yes and then that's why I -- did you

 4     ever talk to him on the 16th of July, 1995?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you talk to them on the 15th of July, 1995?

 7        A.   I talked to them.  We saw the intercept, and that's all.

 8        Q.   How about on the 17th of July, 1995?

 9        A.   I spoke to Jokic on the 18th relating the engagement of

10     engineering machinery, and he said that Trbic had told him that a machine

11     should be sent to Pilica or rather Branjevo, as it says here.

12        Q.   Did you ever talk to Sreten Milosevic about that?

13        A.   No.  The information I received from Jokic was sufficient for me.

14        Q.   On the 16th of July 1995, you had no knowledge of this activity

15     by -- which was conveyed to you by Jokic and Milosevic; is that what

16     you're saying?  You only found that out on the 18th; correct?

17        A.   I heard that from Jokic, that is about the machinery being

18     engaged, but he told me earlier that the machines were already engaged on

19     the 14th.

20        Q.   But it looks from this note that they were engaged on what date,

21     sir?

22        A.   It says here in the morning at 8.00 in Pilica, so if this entry

23     is at 2210, that would mean the next day, and I can only speculate why

24     this request was made.

25        Q.   I know, maybe we misunderstood each other, but the entry in this

Page 31868

 1     request was actual made on the 16th, and these excavators and loaders

 2     were sent on the next day being the 17th of July; correct?

 3        A.   That's what I said.

 4        Q.   Now let's go to the next entry there, which is the one I really

 5     wanted to talk to you about, and that's Ljubo Bojanovic's entry.  Did you

 6     talk to Ljubo Bojanovic at all on the 16th of July, 1995, when you were

 7     either at the IKM or at the -- wherever your observation post or wherever

 8     you were on the 16th?  Did you talk to him at all?

 9        A.   I don't remember all these communications with everyone; however,

10     this note indicates that from either the IKM or the Orahovac, Ljubo is

11     telling the duty operations officer where to send the company station

12     which shows -- only goes to show that Ljubo was in the field.

13        Q.   Okay.  I'm not really that interested in Ljubo being in the

14     field, but it's really the vehicle from the Banja Luka company station,

15     that's what he's talking about; right?  And Ljubo is reporting that the

16     vehicles should go where?  Where should this vehicle go?

17        A.   This company had arrived earlier, and it was in the area of

18     Orahovac.  It was received by Dragan Obrenovic.  Ljubo Bojanovic was

19     probably involved in that too.  A company station is a vehicle that was

20     late, they didn't know its whereabouts, so it was said as soon as it

21     arrived in Zvornik it should be sent to Orahovac and be linked up there

22     with the company.

23        Q.   But in the English translation, it actually says that the school

24     in Orahovac, it does not say that in B/C/S, sir?

25        A.   Yes, yes, it says the school in Orahovac.

Page 31869

 1        Q.   I just wanted to make sure because you didn't mention it.

 2             Now, was that part of the Zvornik Brigade's zone of defence or

 3     zone of responsibility that one of your guys, Ljubo Bojanovic is sending

 4     a vehicle from the Banja Luka company station to Orahovac, but

 5     particularly in Orahovac to this one school in Orahovac on the

 6     16th of July, 1995?  Whose zone is that?

 7        A.   A vehicle cannot enter school buildings, but units can be

 8     deployed in the territory while waiting to be engaged in combat.  They

 9     can march along the road.  If this company was travelling from Bijeljina

10     to Zvornik, it just passed through that, and it stayed for a while and in

11     Orahovac and later on went on to search the terrain.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'm not talking about physically going into the school but

13     the vehicle was going, I guess, so it's easier for you to understand,

14     near the school or at the school or around the school in Orahovac; but in

15     any event, what I'm curious to know is did Ljubo Bojanovic since you had

16     some conversations with him at this critical time period when you

17     returned to the forward command post, did he discuss this with you?

18     Because at one point I recall you saying that Ljubo said he saw some

19     buses and -- with people in it, but they just kind of passed.  He didn't

20     know they were going to Orahovac or anywhere else for that matter much

21     less in the school or near the school.  Did he share this with you on

22     July 16th, 1995, at approximately, and we're guessing here between

23     2200 hours and 2330 hours, I'm just looking at the two dates.  I don't

24     really know what time it was but ...

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please slow down.

Page 31870

 1        A.   You are mixes up the dates in two different situations.  Ljubo

 2     mentioned to me --

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Ostojic and Mr. Pandurevic equally,

 4     you are creating a few problems for the interpreters, particularly the

 5     French booth, so please slow down both of you.  Thank you.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  Sorry about that.  Okay.

 7        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic -- sorry, and I will give you a chance to answer.

 8     I know you were in the middle of it, but just so that we are clear on the

 9     record, you were going to explain to me that I'm mixing up the dates.

10     When did you talk to Ljubo Bojanovic when you returned back from the

11     Srebrenica area from the Zvornik Brigade command and/or IKM, when?

12        A.   I spoke to him on the afternoon of the 15th when he came to the

13     IKM after a conversation with Brano Grujic.

14        Q.   And did you talk to him, sir, ever again after that, meaning --

15     sorry -- strike that.

16             Let me ask you this, did you talk to him on the 16th of July,

17     1995?

18        A.   No, I didn't discuss this topic with him.

19        Q.   I'm not asking if you discussed this topic.  Did you talk to

20     Ljubo Bojanovic at all on the 16th of July, 1995?

21        A.   Mr. Ostojic, these are somewhat impossible requests put to me to

22     recall each and every single communication with each and every

23     individual.  I may have probably issued some task to Ljubo Bojanovic.  I

24     know that on the 16th and 17th he was searching the ground.  I probably

25     gave him a task on the evening of the 16th, or it could have been Dragan

Page 31871

 1     Obrenovic who did that.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Sir, if you don't remember, just tell us you don't have a

 3     recollection of that.  How about on the 17th, do you remember discussing

 4     with Ljubo Bojanovic this topic or let's just even broaden it, the topic

 5     of POWs on the 17th of July, 1995?

 6        A.   I don't think I ever discussed this subject with him.

 7        Q.   Help me understand why not.  If he told you that he saw the buses

 8     of POWs going through, and then later you have information that these

 9     people were executed, why didn't you come up to him and say, Ljubo, as

10     your commander, what happened?  You told me they went through Zvornik.

11     Did you ever have that discussion with him?

12        A.   Ljubo told me what he purportedly knew, and that was not nearly

13     enough to provide any detail; and, therefore, I didn't ask him anything

14     else about this subject because in the meantime, I had received

15     information from Dragan Obrenovic.  I also --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't understand the last

17     part of the answer.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment, Mr. Ostojic.

19             Mr. Pandurevic, the interpreters didn't catch the last part of

20     your answer.  If you look at the screen, it stops after, "I had received

21     information from Dragan Obrenovic."  Then you said something else, if you

22     could repeat it, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  Since

24     Mr. Ostojic is insisting on the name Ljubo, I just added that I didn't

25     talk to any Ljubo at all.

Page 31872

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Shall we have the break, Mr. Ostojic?

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  If you -- yeah, whatever you'd like, Mr. President,

 3     of course.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  You are very gentle.  Let's have a 25-minute break.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just before we begin, a

 9     couple of housekeeping matters.  On page 19, line 16, it was brought to

10     my attention to the date was placed, and we were discussing I think the

11     decision by Karadzic, it was mentioned as it being the 19th, but it

12     should be the 11th, I think, that's what it says.  And then also when we

13     were discussing with Mr. Pandurevic Exhibit 1D690, we didn't have the

14     B/C/S translation, that exhibit is also in evidence as P10, so if we can

15     just bring that up now as well with the B/C/S just to give him an

16     opportunity to take a look at it.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly, let's start with that.  The correction

18     of the date will be looked into, looked after, in due course.  Did we get

19     the numbers, Madam Registrar.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:

21        Q.   So it's P10 that we are looking at, Mr. Pandurevic, and I

22     apologise for not having that in B/C/S for you earlier.  I think I was

23     focussing on paragraph number 4, can you read that for us, please?

24        A.   Yes, I can:

25             " The commissioner shall ensure that the civilian and military

Page 31873

 1     organs treat all citizens who participated in combat against the Army of

 2     Republika Srpska as prisoners of war, and ensure that the civilian

 3     population can freely choose where they will live or move to."

 4        Q.   I know - thank you - during the direct, you asked questions about

 5     the word "bezbednost" or "obezbeditie" as we see it in paragraph 4, what

 6     does that mean?

 7        A.   In this context or in this sentence, grammatically one can say

 8     that they will undertake measures and do so and so as it goes on.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, we don't need that exhibit for now.

10             I think I mentioned it, but it's dated the 11th of July, 1995, as

11     you see on the bottom; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Because I think I misspoke earlier, so I wanted to make sure that

14     it's clear.

15             Now let's take a look at a couple of exhibits or intercepts,

16     actually and if we could have P1102 on the screen for you, sir.  And just

17     so the record is clear, I think it's either A in English or there is a

18     different version with the letter D, Delta, in English, same number,

19     P1102.  I don't necessarily -- I don't know that it matters which one but

20     just so the Court's aware of it, there's two exhibits.  And,

21     Mr. Pandurevic, for you we would use P1102B which is the B/C/S version

22     and I just want to be careful that there is no name on it, so I would

23     probably ask that it not be broadcast but I think it can be -- or it

24     could not be so we should not broadcast it?

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  I'm told it is under seal, so no broadcast and also

Page 31874

 1     use your discretion on what to mention and what not to mention in public

 2     session, otherwise we'll go into private session.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is an intercept that was apparently captured on the

 5     12th of July, 1995 at 7.40 in the morning.  It involves Obrenovic; do you

 6     see that?

 7        A.   It says here that one of the speakers allegedly is Obrenovic, but

 8     as I see it, it was not Obrenovic who took part in this conversation.

 9        Q.   And help us with that because it does say Obrenovic, you're

10     correct.  Who took part in this conversation?

11        A.   Look, the caller, the one who called Obrenovic's number, the

12     telephone rings, and he is expecting Obrenovic to answer it.  Someone

13     else picked up and says "hello."  The caller says, "Obrenovic who?"  Not

14     Obrenovic, this is a form of addressing the person by the name whereas

15     there is no response because obviously the one who answered was not

16     Obrenovic, but he didn't state his name, therefore, no record of it; and

17     then the question is:  "Where is your commander?"  And the conversation

18     then proceeds as we see it here.

19        Q.   And the response to "Where is your commander?"  Who are they

20     referring to?  He asked for Obrenovic, then he asked for the commander

21     was he asking for you then?  And it's the 12th of July.  I know you

22     weren't there but the answer is, "As far as I know, he's here."

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, one moment, Mr. Ostojic.

24             Mr. Haynes.

25             MR. HAYNES:  I'm going to make an inquiry as to the relevance of

Page 31875

 1     this.  Throughout the course of the morning, Mr. Ostojic has prefaced

 2     questions about the reports of the 12th and 13th of July and entries in

 3     the duty officers' notebook by saying, Of course I accept you were not

 4     there.  Does he or doesn't he?  When I says I accept you were not there.

 5     Is that a genuine expression or are these wholly disingenuous questions

 6     because if he doesn't accept that he shouldn't preface all his questions

 7     in that way, and it seems to me this is a line of examination that goes

 8     quite contrary to all the acceptances that he's placed on the record this

 9     morning.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Ostojic?

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, it is very genuine, and if he says he wasn't

12     there; but I think the record shows perhaps other things, and it will

13     help us because there are instances in the record that certain people

14     mention our client; and yet if his position is that people -- and there

15     are entries indicating his presence different from his testimony, it

16     should apply to all of us, but it is genuine.  I'm not being disingenuous

17     at all with the witness.  If he tells us he wasn't there at the 12th,

18     that's his position.  But if it bothers him that I preface it with that,

19     I won't preface it with that at all.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Haynes, do you wish to comment further?

21             MR. HAYNES:  No, if he accepts he wasn't there this morning,

22     that's fine.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Again reading, Mr. Ostojic, from what he said and

24     what we have in the transcript, I'm not sure that he does accept it.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  If he says it, I'm accept it, but it's not my

Page 31876

 1     burden of proof.  It's really a question that should be directed towards

 2     the Prosecution whether they accept it or not.  I accept what

 3     Mr. Pandurevic says, if he says he wasn't there.  But I don't know why

 4     it's directed at me but if I can proceed and then --

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Well then let's proceed.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Now here, sir, just so we get it clear because there is some

 8     entries with these intercepts that we were confused, and there's certain

 9     things that the Prosecution says they mean and -- so here it says:  "As

10     far as I know, he's here."  This person asked for the commander.  Were

11     they talking about Obrenovic at that time, July 12th, 1995, or were they

12     talking about you and the response saying:  "The commander is here."

13     What does that mean?

14        A.   The other participant in the conversation, I don't know his

15     identity, he may have been referring to Obrenovic when he asked where is

16     the commander.  It might have been someone from the corps command,

17     Zivanovic.  The corps commander knew exactly where I was, and he wouldn't

18     be looking for me in Zvornik on the 12th.

19        Q.   I'm glad you clarified that.  Now let's look at another exhibit,

20     P1103.  Just so we have the date this is also July 12th, 1995, at 0755

21     hours.  Let me know, Mr. Pandurevic, when you've had an opportunity to

22     look at the document.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is also under seal, Mr. Ostojic.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.  Please don't broadcast it.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is there a printed version of this?

Page 31877

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think there is, but I don't have it in my

 2     version.

 3        Q.   All I want to do is focus your attention, it says here:

 4     "General, I spoke with Mane.  Do you know who the reference to Mane is?

 5        A.   Probably Mane Djuric, Vasic's deputy.

 6        Q.   Just so the record is clear with respect to this exhibit, P1103

 7     it's the 12th of July, 1995, and as I said 0755 hours.  The next line

 8     right after that it says he left his hotel, et cetera, one of his

 9     companies is up there with our bulldozer man there in Konjevic Polje; do

10     you see that entry?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you know anything about Vasic's man, Mane Djuric, and what he

13     was doing with a bulldozer man on the 12th of July, 1995?

14        A.   Mr. Ostojic, I really have to clarify this.  You have interpreted

15     this as if it's the first time you've seen this conversation.  Mane

16     didn't do anything with bulldozers.  This participant told the general

17     that there's a company of Manes in Konjevic Polje up there with that man

18     of ours with the bulldozers.  So it's the engineering battalion from the

19     Drina Corps.  No one operated bulldozers.

20        Q.   I don't want really to belabour the point, but here X is saying

21     he left the hotel and is on his way home, who do you think he's referring

22     to if he says, Hello, General, I've spoken to Mane.  The next entry is

23     good.  Then the witness or the person who said, I spoken to Mane, he says

24     he left the hotel and is on his way home.  Do you he's talking about

25     someone other than Mane?

Page 31878

 1        A.   Well, you know that they are talking about Mane.  We're wasting

 2     time for no purpose.

 3        Q.   No, we're not.  And then he goes on to say that he'll call you

 4     from there to update you, and it says one of his companies is up there

 5     with the bulldozer man; so I just don't know really your explanation

 6     doesn't really fit with the plain reading of this.  If he says one of his

 7     companies, and he's talking about him and he, was he talking about Mane

 8     the whole time or someone else?

 9        A.   Well, I have to read out the first three paragraphs to put things

10     into context.

11             "Hello, General.  You've spoken with Mane.

12             X tells the general that he's spoken to Mane.  Y or the general

13     says:  "Good."

14             It continues with what he had to say about Mane, and he says the

15     following:

16              "He left the hotel and is on his way home.  He'll call you from

17     there to update you."  So he's going to call the general to inform him

18     about everything and the person speaking with the general then continues.

19              "One of his companies is up there with that man of ours with the

20     bulldozers."  He's trying to refer to the 5th Engineering Battalion and

21     he again says, "here in Konjevic Polje," so we're talk being Mane.

22        Q.   Okay that's what I thought.  I misunderstood you then I

23     apologise.  Then let's go to the next exhibit, P1126, please.  This is

24     kind of an interesting exhibit.  It's dated, I think, the 13th of July,

25     and it's at -- so again P1126, and we do have the printed version of this

Page 31879

 1     and please, we shouldn't broadcast it because there are initials and

 2     names on the printed version in B/C/S.  I think it's actually on the

 3     B/C/S the last page of this document.  I don't have that actually written

 4     as A, B, C or D, but I can -- we can put it on the ELMO possibly.

 5             If you go to the next page, the entry is at 0910 hours, so 9.10

 6     in the morning.  So with the Court's permission and the usher to assist

 7     us, to put this briefly on the ELMO.  It's P1126A for the English

 8     version.  I think we could put that on the screen, and we do have it now

 9     on the e-court.  Thank you.

10             Sir, I'm he focussing your attention on the bottom portion of

11     this intercept that is taken on the 13th of July at 19 -- 13th of July,

12     1995, at 9.10 in the morning.  It's a conversation between two unknown

13     individuals X and Y, and I'm sure you don't know who they are; but

14     they're talking about moving something to Zvornik.  Do you see that?  I

15     think it starts with:  "And that's the closest" --

16        A.   I can see that.

17        Q.   -- "and what should I do now?"

18             Y says:  "No, no, to Zvornik, they should send them to Zvornik."

19             X says:  "To Zvornik? "

20             Y says:  "Yes, yes, it's not possible because Milici ..." and

21     then it doesn't have much after that in English anyway; do you see that?

22             Then it goes on to say:

23             "X:  Well I don't have any people, I don't have them."

24             Y says:  No, not you."  In English it says formal, "but the one

25     who brings him it, and tell him to Zvornik."

Page 31880

 1             Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes, I can see that.  I saw the next page too.

 3        Q.   Now, we've heard a lot of evidence, and the Prosecution has

 4     brought witnesses and some experts, I think even, on these intercepts,

 5     who are these people who are talking at 9.10 on the 13th of July, 1995,

 6     if you know?

 7        A.   X and Y according to what we have here.  Since Milici is referred

 8     to, and it says -- I assume that the reference is to wounded people.  I

 9     know nothing else.

10        Q.   Now, do you know, sir, that our position is that Ljubisa Beara

11     never had any intention to put or wasn't involved in any discussion to

12     place POWs in Zvornik at all.  You know that's our position; right?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know that the Prosecution during this case, and we asked

15     for a delay, and I've got to tell you I'm very grateful to a dear friend

16     of mine who is a colleague in this courtroom, she is one of -- and she

17     helped us find the document in the Croatian collection of intercepts that

18     were in the EDS disclosure of approximately 10.000 or so pages given late

19     in the trial several months ago; and there is a document that I want to

20     show you here that I don't think we've seen since our case was over at

21     that point.

22             So can we have 2D642, please?

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Finish your question.  Have you finished it?

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  We're going to get it once the document is up.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Okay.  In the meantime, Mr. Pandurevic,

Page 31881

 1     the previous question was:

 2             "Now do you know, sir, that our position is that Ljubisa Beara

 3     never had any intention to put or wasn't involved in any discussion to

 4     place POWs in Zvornik at all?  You know that's our position; right?"

 5             What was your answer, I'm asking you to repeat it because it

 6     didn't show up in the transcript.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said I knew that

 8     that was Mr. Ostojic's position.  I don't know if it's anything other

 9     than a position.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  I don't know that he answered it that way before,

12     but we're not going to debate it.

13        Q.   Let's look at this next exhibit to see if it's just my position

14     or if the Prosecutor gave us finally some evidence that they themselves

15     identify as exculpatory only after we brought it to their attention.

16             So, Mr. Pandurevic, we've got this 10.000 plus intercepts from

17     the Croatians that were taken.  They were receiving intercepts from

18     Belgrade, for example, other areas including the areas near or around

19     Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Crna Rijeka, Zvornik, et cetera; but this

20     intercept, in particular, we didn't get to review with any of the

21     Prosecution witnesses because we didn't have it until late in the case.

22     2D642, it's in B/C/S.  It's dated the 13th of July, 1995.  Specifically I

23     want to direct your attention to the time which is at 11.25 which is well

24     or a couple hours after the intercept we have just seen where people were

25     discussing putting something in Zvornik which was at 9.10, I believe.

Page 31882

 1             This intercept, if you see, doesn't capture a verbatim

 2     conversation, so we don't know exactly the source, but the Prosecution

 3     can help us with that.  But look at what it says here, if you look at the

 4     last sentence there and you can read it out because we don't have it

 5     translated.  It talks about people in --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you let him read the full sentence?

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Of course.

 8             JUDGE PROST:  Intercept.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  Pardon me?

10             JUDGE PROST:  Because we don't have a translation if he could

11     read it all through, that would be helpful.  Thank you.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm just excited about this intercept so I

13     apologise.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Could you read the entire intercept, Mr. Pandurevic, I'm sorry.

15     Thank you.

16        A.   Yes:

17             "13th of July, 1995.  1125 hours, 924," that's probably some

18     number:  "Colonel Ljubo Beara (the Main Staff of the VRS) sending four

19     buses, two lorries, and one trailer to Kasaba for the transport of

20     captured Muslims.  They will be taken to the camp in the Batkovici

21     village where there will be a selection into various criminals and

22     ordinary – into war criminals and ordinary

23     soldiers."

24        Q.   Now the word "selekcija" is in quotation marks, do you see that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 31883

 1        Q.   Now, do you understand that to mean like there would be a triage

 2     or something, is that a synonym for that word, to the best of your

 3     knowledge?

 4        A.   The military term is selection, it means making a distinction on

 5     some sort of basis between the wounded, those who are infected, and so on

 6     and so forth.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  The question was that -- the question really is:

 8     Why would the "selekcija" be in inverted commas because at the end of the

 9     day this is a transcript.  Why would it be in inverted commas or quotes?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know why the

11     person who drafted this put it in inverted commas, perhaps he had some

12     real doubts about the real purposes involved, the real objections

13     involved.  Perhaps he had something else in mind when the term selection

14     was used, selection means some sort of sorting in my mind.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I put it to you, Mr. Pandurevic, that it is

16     inverted commas because irrespective of whether the person who

17     transcribed this thought the way you have explained it or not, he wanted

18     to make sure that the exact word used was reported and that's why he or

19     she put it in inverted commas, would you agree to that.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree with that if

21     that's the only word that was literally transcribed as it was said,

22     that's perhaps why it's in inverted commas.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Now, sir, is it fair to say that as of the 13th of July, 1995 at

25     11.25 a.m., the intent, if you will, was to place Bosnian Muslims in the

Page 31884

 1     camp at Batkovci, was it not?

 2        A.   Well, this conversation confirms what I have said.  And with

 3     regard to what Obrenovic told me when speaking to Nikolic, it was said

 4     that people would be brought there, taken there, they'd be kept there for

 5     this triage and then sent to Batkovic [as interpreted] so on the 13th,

 6     that was the objective.

 7        Q.   Let's look at the next exhibit, P1149, which is again the 13th of

 8     July and it's again the same one we looked at the

 9     Deronjic-Karadzic-intermediary discussion.  Now these two civilians were

10     talking on this intercept about moving goods, 2.000 or so, if you will,

11     moving goods inside the warehouse or placing them somewhere else.  So

12     this is approximately eight or so hours later that same day from the

13     prior intercept.

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, do you agree with me that this conversation that same day on

17     the -- there was a change from where they wanted to take the civilians

18     made a decision as to where they were going to put those POWs, do you see

19     that at all?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  This is not being broadcast because it is under

21     seal.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in this conversation, they say

24     that they should be placed in the warehouse or somewhere nearby,

25     somewhere else.  I don't know what they had in mind.

Page 31885

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:

 2        Q.   Do you reject the proposition that it was Deronjic who sent the

 3     POWs from Bratunac to Zvornik?  Do you just reject that as a possibility

 4     given that -- and two days earlier, he was told to secure and he was

 5     named the commissioner in charge of the POWs or ...

 6        A.   I really don't know who took the decision, according to which

 7     those prisoners from Bratunac should be transferred to the territory of

 8     Zvornik.

 9        Q.   But do you reject the possibility or probability, based on this

10     intercept, based on the exhibit that we saw, P10, Karadzic appointing

11     Deronjic, then this discussion, P1149 on the 13th of July where they are

12     discussing 2.000 of them or more and saying that they should be placed in

13     warehouses and they should be placed somewhere else?  As you sit here,

14     don't you agree with me that it's possible, if not probable that it was

15     Deronjic who moved the men from Bratunac where he was from to Zvornik?

16        A.   I can assume that he in some way participated in this event, but

17     to what extent his decision was independent, was taken together with

18     someone else, I really couldn't say.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, let's look at P1206, please.  Sir, this is an

20     intercept, as it's coming up, that involves General Krstic,

21     Captain Trbic, and through a switchboard operator, yourself, I think; but

22     we'll let you talk about that, but I think you mentioned that in your

23     direct.

24             Now, I think the date of this intercept, just that we're clear is

25     the 17th of July, 1995; correct?

Page 31886

 1        A.   I can't see the date.

 2        Q.   Well, I'm pretty sure it's the 17th.

 3             MR. HAYNES:  We can agree it is.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:

 7        Q.   I didn't want to scroll up and down, but thank you for that.

 8     Now, here, first, there is a discussion with General Krstic and Trbic.

 9     Again we shouldn't probably broadcast it and thank you for that.  I want

10     to focus just our attention here a little bit to know where everyone is

11     because there is a switchboard operator that connected you through it.

12     Trbic is where, at the command in Zvornik?

13        A.   Trbic was at the command in the office of the duty operations

14     officer.

15        Q.   And you, sir, you are in the IKM; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So you didn't -- and where was Krstic at the time?

18        A.   I don't know whether he was in Vlasenica, whether the IKM or the

19     call was there, I'm not sure.

20        Q.   So the switchboard was able to connect you with Krstic first,

21     with Trbic, and then ultimately with you at the IKM; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now let's look at the conversation first between Krstic and

24     Trbic.  And I know the preliminary stuff that makes identification of the

25     people who are speaking and just below it says here Krstic says:

Page 31887

 1             "Okay have you killed the Turks up there?"  Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, Trbic responds by saying:  "Well, I guess you got the

 4     report.  What more can I tell you?"

 5             You see that obviously; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What report do you think Trbic is talking about?

 8        A.   Well, probably the report from the 16th that I sent interim

 9     combat report.

10        Q.   Okay.  And then Krstic says:  "I got it."

11             And Trbic responds by saying:  "Basically we did?"

12             Krstic says:  "What?"

13             Trbic says:  "I said, basically we did."

14             What is he referring to when he says, "basically we did," on two

15     separate occasions, that he's killed the Turks?

16        A.   On the whole, yes, we did.  He said, Has that been broken up?

17     That's what Krstic asked.  This conversation has to do with the events in

18     Baljkovica.

19        Q.   But I know you want to go to that next line where they then start

20     talking about have they been broken up, but what is Krstic talking about

21     right before that when he says:  "Have you killed the Turks up there?"

22        A.   Yes, we have on the whole.  He repeats the answer to the question

23     put by Krstic, Did you kill the Turks up there, that had to do with the

24     fighting in Baljkovica.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now let's go down to where you're -- get brought into the

Page 31888

 1     conversation with Krstic.  It starts by saying essentially:

 2             "Hello.

 3             Go ahead.

 4             This is Krstic.

 5             Hello, General, sir.

 6             Hello.  Vinko.  Vinko.

 7             Go ahead."

 8             And then what I want to look at here, Krstic says to you:

 9             "Are there any changes in reference to that report."

10             Do you see that?

11        A.   I need to see the next page.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.

13        A.   Yes, I can see it now.

14        Q.   Now, I know there was some discussion about you saying you wanted

15     to, in your reports, to talk to Krstic.  Here he's asking you about what

16     report?

17        A.   Well it's the report dated the 16th, an interim combat report, at

18     least that's what I had in mind, probably Krstic too.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, your response is he wanted to know if there's any

20     changes to the report, you said:  "Nothing significant."

21             Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Wouldn't that have been a good opportunity, if he's asking you

24     about the report, to tell him what you've heard from Obrenovic or any

25     others like Branjo Grujic about what you've heard with respect to any

Page 31889

 1     POWs that may have arrived in Zvornik that were not in your zone of

 2     defence?

 3        A.   In that report, the 16th of July, nothing was said about that.

 4     It was in a report dated the 15th, and that's why Krstic didn't ask me

 5     about it, and I didn't mention anything about it to him; and this is

 6     something I have explained in the course of the examination-in-chief

 7     already.

 8        Q.   All right.  I didn't fully understand it, but here, Krstic is

 9     asking you, Are there any changes to your report?  You're saying it's not

10     the report of the 15th where you talk about the prisoners being

11     distributed throughout the schools, you're saying it's the report of the

12     16th, and you're telling him there are no changes.  Wouldn't that have

13     been a good opportunity to say, Oh, but yes, General Krstic, I do want to

14     tell you about these POWs that were brought here that I'm not responsible

15     for and the activities that these people are claiming are occurring in

16     the schools such as executions or burials.

17        A.   One could have had such thoughts, too, but I selected to act as I

18     did, and you know how I gathered all the information, and how I relayed

19     all that information in the interim combat report dated the 18th; and I

20     also relayed that information when I subsequently had direct contact with

21     General Krstic.

22        Q.   Did you ever talk to Trbic about this intercept and what his --

23     what he meant when he said, "basically we did" in response to the

24     question of Krstic:  "Have you killed the Turks up there?"

25        A.   Well how would I speak to him about this since I didn't know what

Page 31890

 1     they had previously been discussing?  The first time I saw this intercept

 2     was here in The Hague.

 3        Q.   Right.  I didn't -- I wasn't sure if you saw it before because I

 4     know you read Butler's report, and I know you met with Obrenovic, and I

 5     know you tried to get in contact with Semso Muminovic; so I wasn't sure

 6     if during that time when you were kind of -- before you were even

 7     indicted did you look at this intercept or is the first time you saw it

 8     was here when you came to The Hague?

 9        A.   What you can see with regard to intercepts in Butler's report,

10     well, I saw all those things in the report, but as for all the other

11     intercepts, the first time I saw him was here in The Hague.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at P1212 and it's A in English, Alpha, and D,

13     Delta, in B/C/S.

14             Sir, this is an intercept that purportedly is dated the 17th of

15     July at 9.50 in the morning, and it's the first portion of the intercept

16     that I'd like to direct your attention to.  You're welcome to look at the

17     entire intercept, but it's the last paragraph with the last X before the

18     next intercept appears.

19             Sir, just to further direct your attention, there are other

20     references to you in that intercept.  You're welcome to look at the whole

21     thing but again I'm only going to focus for now your attention on the

22     second -- or that last X in that intercept.

23        A.   I've read it.

24        Q.   Have you seen this intercept before?

25        A.   I think I did here in The Hague along with the other intercepts.

Page 31891

 1        Q.   Now, this one of the 17th of July at 9.50 they seem to be

 2     referencing you.  I'm not suggesting, and it's not my burden of proof

 3     against you, or anything; but it mentions your name, so I just want to

 4     clarify.  Do you remember this going on at all or this conversation?

 5     Where you say there were hundreds dead and someone is saying:

 6             "You can't kill them all there are so many of them.  It's simply

 7     a living mass.  You can't, let's say ..." and then it goes on to talk a

 8     is self-propelling gun, et cetera.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   This is a conversation between two unidentified individuals who

10     probably wanted to take a certain route, but they were not sure if it was

11     safe.  This was one of the examples how you spread rumours.  They heard

12     from certain sources about certain events and now they are evolving the

13     situation, creating the situation, and interpreting it.  The situation

14     was, indeed, serious but not nearly as serious as they are portraying it

15     here.

16        Q.   What about did 20 of your men get killed that day, which is the

17     paragraph right before that?  That's pretty serious.

18        A.   You've seen in the report that there are dozens of killed, which

19     means that we didn't know the exact number.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Pandurevic, the previous question from

21     Mr. Ostojic which was in a way a compound question also asked you whether

22     you remember this conversation.  You don't seem to have answered that, at

23     least that's how I read your answer to the previous question.

24             Do you remember this conversation or not?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said that I've seen

Page 31892

 1     this intercept along with other intercepts here in The Hague.  I don't

 2     know who the people participating in the conversation are.  I certainly

 3     am not one of them.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I wanted that to be clarified.

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, and I understood it that way,

 6     Mr. Pandurevic.  Thank you, Mr. President.  Now let's look at P1310A,

 7     Alpha and D, Delta, in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   This intercept, Mr. Pandurevic, is dated the 23rd of July, 1995,

 9     and I think it mentions Vinko, you addressed it, but it also mentions the

10     first name of Ljubo.  Can you just read that whole thing and let me know

11     when you've had a chance to look at it or when you've completed your

12     review.

13        A.   The participant, it's, I think, the letter J, in inverted commas,

14     from the previous conversation called again and asked for Vinko, but

15     Ljubo answered.  The question mark, in inverted commas, told Ljubo to

16     "Pass on to Vinko, what Vinko and I were just talking about.  Will" --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, we have lost the English

18     translation.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Talking about will arrive at your

20     place by 1700 hours."

21             MR. OSTOJIC:

22        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Pandurevic, they lost --

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  I take it the problem is solved.  Because for a

24     moment, the interpreters had lost the English translation, but we have it

25     back now.  So let's proceed.  Thank you.

Page 31893

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:

 2        Q.   Who is the Ljubo they are talking about in this intercept; do you

 3     know?

 4        A.   This is probably Ljubo Bojanovic.

 5        Q.   Let's be fair there is no doubt, is there, that it, in fact, is

 6     Ljubo Bojanovic they are talking about there; right?

 7        A.   If we establish a connection with the previous conversation, then

 8     it is Ljubo Bojanovic.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And then now let's go back to the duty officer

10     notebook which is P377, please.  And you have that, sir, in front of you.

11     And I'd like to direct your attention to the last four numbers are 5759

12     of the ERN, so ERN last four numbers, 5759.

13             I forgot to ask you this one question on that page.

14        A.   5759, yes.

15        Q.   At 1340 hours, it says:

16             "Obrenovic to call Vuk urgently."  Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we have some documents we'll show you in the tactical

19     intercept that say that Vuk is actually Semso Muminovic, but you're

20     saying Vuk is Dusko Vukotic, am I understanding you correctly, or did I

21     miss that?

22        A.   Yes, that was his code-name.

23        Q.   Now, and we'll see this a little bit later today when we looked

24     at some of the evidence from another case and Mr. Muminovic's interviews

25     with the Prosecution, he said your nickname was "Glovni" I think, do you

Page 31894

 1     remember that you had a code-name called Glovni?

 2        A.   You think that's what Muminovic said?  Yes, I've seen it

 3     somewhere that he said that, but the code-name was not Glovni because, in

 4     that case, it wouldn't be a code-name.

 5        Q.   We'll address it a little later when we get to that tactical

 6     intercept section, but here at 1340 hours, Obrenovic to call Vuk

 7     urgently.  Is it your understanding that Obrenovic was to call

 8     Dusko Vukotic urgently?

 9        A.   This is what it's supposed to be.

10        Q.   This is again just so we are clear on the 15th of July, 1995, and

11     then down below at 1525 hours, it says duty officer from Zlatar is

12     looking for the commander so he can brief him on the situation.

13     Twenty-five minutes later, commander ordered tank company to go via

14     Snagovo, et cetera.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Help me understand why Obrenovic needed to call Dusko Vukotic or

17     Vuk urgently?  I mean you were there, I think, approximately, at that

18     time.

19        A.   Yes, I was at the IKM at the time.  I think that Vukotic was at

20     Kula Grad at the time.  If he had some information from Obrenovic, I

21     really don't know.

22        Q.   Let's turn to this exhibit, same one P377, ERN 5741.  Sir, just

23     let me know when you've had a chance to get to that page, please.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   These are kind of just clean-up questions for me.  It says here,

Page 31895

 1     it mentions the name Ljubo on, I think, two occasions.  And in the middle

 2     of the page right under the name of Mitar Zeljko, do you see that it's a

 3     reference to Ljubo to draw up our order, and again just so that everybody

 4     is following and the record is clear, I'm sorry, sir, this is an entry of

 5     the 13th of July, 1995.  So I'm just asking for your assistance if you

 6     can tell us who you think this Ljubo is that they're referencing here on

 7     the 13th of July, 1995?  Then it goes on to say, "To consult Dule or

 8     Petkovic."  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Probably Ljubo Bojanovic.

10        Q.   Now, also below that, almost immediately, there is a reference

11     again to Ljubo and it talks about two Pragas, self-propelled guns.  Who

12     are they referencing there; do you know?

13        A.   Probably Ljubo Bojanovic again.  As far as I know he was the only

14     one by that name in the command of the Zvornik Brigade.

15        Q.   The next page if you can turn to that I think starts with Vukotic

16     and Petkovic, and the Prosecution was kind enough when they translated

17     this to show us who signed which entry; and I note before the page before

18     that I should have told you was apparently Sreten Milosevic according to

19     them.  The first section was also Sreten Milosevic's handwriting, but the

20     section below that, they couldn't tell us whose handwriting that is

21     because they don't know, and what I want to know is here it says

22     Ljubo Dejanovic, do you see in the middle of the page.  And we talked

23     about that earlier today about all these different Ljubos in the

24     Zvornik Brigade.  And you didn't remember this guy, but if you look at it

25     and maybe if we could -- yeah, it's there.

Page 31896

 1        A.   I think that this was corrected by someone.  This should read

 2     Bojanovic.  I am not familiar with this surname as it's written here.

 3        Q.   That's where I got it from.  I looked it up and then I saw that.

 4     But now I asked you about the blue book that you have there, which we

 5     call the war diary, which is P378 about who had custody of it.  Now, with

 6     respect to 377, do you know who maintained custody of Exhibit P377, the

 7     duty operations -- let me get the name right -- the duty officer notebook

 8     after December of 1995?

 9        A.   I said yesterday that I didn't know.

10        Q.   I know you've heard some evidence and discussion about it.  Did

11     it surprise you that Dragan Obrenovic had possession of this book at one

12     time?

13        A.   That's what I learned here during the trial, that it was in his

14     possession.

15        Q.   And did you find out, not just from this trial but from any other

16     source at any time whether Dragan Obrenovic made any changes or directed

17     others like, let's say, Dragan Jokic to make changes or entries in this

18     book?

19        A.   I am not aware of anything like that.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31897

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you for that.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31898











11 Page 31898 redacted. Private session.















Page 31899

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  We are now in open session, Mr. Ostojic.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President for helping me clarify

 4     that issue.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'd like to show you and discuss with you some of the

 6     witness statements that Mr. Muminovic gave to the OTP relating to the

 7     events of Srebrenica 1995, but just quickly for background, he was the

 8     individual with whom you negotiated the passage of the column on the 16th

 9     or thereabouts July, 1995; correct?

10        A.   Both the 15th and the 16th.

11        Q.   And he was what we call an enemy combatant; correct?  He was on

12     the other side of the war on the Bosnian Muslim side; correct?

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   Now, let's look at his first interview, I think, that he has and

15     that was the 8th of June, 2001, so it was before your attempt to call him

16     because I know you talked to him or I think you mentioned you talked to

17     him on the 5th of September, 2001.  So this first interview I have a

18     couple questions and it's P -- I'm sorry it's 2D635.

19             Again, as always, Mr. Pandurevic, to you're welcome to look at

20     the entire statement if you like I can provide it to you at the break or

21     your counsel can, but I really want to look at the third page both in

22     English and B/C/S and it says here ...

23        A.   Do you have a hard copy for me, perhaps, please?

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can a hard copy be provided.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, I do, and I can.

Page 31900

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Madam usher, please.

 2             Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  If she could show it to Mr. Haynes and the

 4     Prosecutor because there is some highlighting on it.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Yes.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  Again, Mr. Pandurevic --

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  I see Mr. Haynes consulting with his

 8     staff.  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 9             MR. HAYNES:  He's handed me the hard copy in a language I don't

10     understand.

11             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought Mr. Pandurevic wanted it in B/C/S.

12             MR. HAYNES:  I understand, yeah, thanks.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  I just need it back to see what I highlighted it's

14     that in English that I'm going to ask him about.

15             MR. HAYNES:  Yes.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey doesn't need to see it, so let's

17     proceed.  Thank you.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:

19        Q.   I could let you take some time looking at the whole document but

20     Mr. Muminovic disagrees the reason why the column was opened.  You gave

21     your reason and you mentioned as a humanitarian you doesn't want to see

22     people dying there.  Mr. Muminovic says quite the opposite.  He says he

23     broke through the defence line, we're going to get into specifically what

24     he says, I'm just giving you that background.  You know that he takes a

25     completely different position than you do as to the purpose and the

Page 31901

 1     rationale as to why the column was opened on the 16th of July, 1995.  You

 2     know that, don't you?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted), and you testified

 7     about other people not being forthright and truthful.  Do you think

 8     knowing what Mr. Muminovic said, do you think he's not being candid when

 9     he said that the reason the column was actually open was because the BiH

10     broke through the Zvornik defence lines and we had actually encircled

11     them; and there was a panic on their side and Mr. Pandurevic was begging

12     me, because actually he uses the word begging, begging me to stop so we

13     could open the column and get these guys out of here because they would

14     have actually not only destroyed your whole brigade but probably the

15     entire town?  You know that's what he says, right, in a nutshell?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's not what he says.  Some of that is true,

17     but I think you should try to be a little more accurate than

18     paraphrasing.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  It was just --

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  And while we are at it because your questions are

21     becoming longer and longer but in the meantime, there is another problem.

22     Can we go to private session for a little bit?  I need to point out

23     something to you, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Haynes, and Mr. McCloskey, please.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

25                           [Private session]

Page 31902











11 Page 31902 redacted. Private session.















Page 31903

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  We are back in open session.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, we will get to the specific statement, and I

10     think it's the third one that Mr. Muminovic discusses the reason for the

11     opening of the corridor on the 16th of July in a little bit, and I got

12     ahead of myself a little bit.  I really want to focus with respect to

13     this first statement, page 3, where Muminovic believed -- tell me when

14     you've found it.  It's in the middle of the page, it says:

15             "Muminovic believed Pandurevic was in the Orahovac area near

16     Lazete."  Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   I note that at that time he is talking about in July -- you can

19     see the reference immediately above that July 16th, 1995, and he talks

20     about Obrenovic and his vehicle being seized during the operation, et

21     cetera.  Were you ever in Orahovac in the area near Lazete?

22        A.   No, at that time, I was commanding solely from the IKM.  That

23     is -- what you're referring to is a hole, and I couldn't see anything

24     from a hole.

25        Q.   I'm only referring to what Mr. Muminovic is saying and I wanted

Page 31904

 1     to clarify that.  On the next page of this document, page 4,

 2     Mr. Muminovic is talking about the negotiations between Obrenovic,

 3     Pandurevic, yourself, sir, and Muminovic on the 16th of July and then he

 4     talks about code-names being used; do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   This is where you've read also, and where I've gotten where we

 7     thought at least your code-name was Glavni, but you're telling us under

 8     oath that that's not correct; right?

 9        A.   These are his assumptions and deductions.  He didn't talk to

10     Obrenovic at all, but he says here that he had radio contact with

11     Obrenovic 20 times.  On the first page, he says that on the 5th of May,

12     he knew that an attack on Srebrenica was imminent.  I didn't know that at

13     the time.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.  Let's go then to the next exhibit, 2D636

15     which is an interview with the Prosecutor and Mr. Muminovic dated

16     September 29th and October 1st, 2001.  I'm going to try and see if I have

17     a B/C/S version for you as well.  With the Court's permission if we could

18     ask the usher to show this to Mr. Haynes and the Prosecutor and then to

19     the witness.

20             As the Court can see while we're getting this to Mr. Pandurevic,

21     there is certain sections redacted, and I think the Prosecutor is best

22     able if the Court is interested to explain why; but that's the version

23     we've always had in our possession, and that's just the way it is.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have no idea.  I can figure it out.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  I don't know that it's necessary but just so the

Page 31905

 1     Court and the record doesn't seem to indicate that we've redacted it.  It

 2     was given to us that way and that's where it's at.

 3        Q.   So if we can have, Mr. Pandurevic, you, take a look at this

 4     exhibit, 2D636; and as you can see there are certain pages that are

 5     completely blackened out or redacted or some reason, and the Prosecutor

 6     will let us know what that is all about and the only question I have was

 7     on the last page a couple entries with respect to this interview.  Now,

 8     just so we have this time line down, this was taken again as I said

 9     September 29th and October 1st, 2001, which was approximately three or so

10     weeks after you had this phone contact with Mr. Muminovic through

11     Mr. Mijatovic; is that correct?

12        A.   Probably yes.  I don't remember the exact date.  If I spoke to

13     him in September, and this is the end of September, then that's it.  But

14     I think that I've seen this statement unredacted.

15        Q.   You may have, sir, and we'll get to that at the next break but

16     for my purposes I really wanted to focus on these two.  If you prefer not

17     to discuss that until you get the full version, I'll respect that and

18     move to the next exhibit.

19             Turn to the last page, if you will, and it talks about

20     Muminovic's discussion with you at approximately 2000 hours on the 15th

21     of July, and in the English version it says 15 July, 2001, but I'll let

22     the Prosecutor tell us, I think that might be a mistake, it should be

23     1995, I think?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Are we looking at the same document?  Could you

25     compare the B/C/S and English.

Page 31906

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  We are, but we're looking at the wrong page.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  If you look at them they don't seem to be the same.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's actually the last page in B/C/S is correct.

 4     We have that.  We don't have the English version, page 4 which is the

 5     next page.  Then now it should be correct.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Now it's okay.  No, that's also on B/C/S.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  English has only three pages.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm sorry, I'm looking at the exhibit physically,

 9     and I have four pages so.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Let's sort it out.  If anyone has a

11     hard copy of the fourth page in English which is -- seems to be missing

12     from e-court, we can put it on the ELMO.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought we saw it just now.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  No, it was in B/C/S.

15             MR. HAYNES:  Perhaps we could use the --

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  What you saw, what you saw on the left-hand side of

17     the monitor, which to me also initially seemed to be the English

18     translation was, in actual fact, the B/C/S.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  How about if we, with your permission, put this on

20     the ELMO.  There are two or three highlights, but I don't know that they

21     really matter.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Mr. Haynes.

23             MR. HAYNES:  Yes, I'm perfectly happy with that.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  That part, I don't know.  I

25     don't know.  I need someone to make sure that the last page, page four,

Page 31907

 1     which we don't have in e-court, has not been subject of a redaction.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  You know what, Mr. President, he's going to find

 3     that out if we get the break.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can have the break now, but I need someone to

 5     check.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Page 4 is okay, I'm told.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Not redacted.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Then you can put your question.  Then you can put

10     your question, and we'll have the break soon after.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record this document is the same as

12     3D546.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  So would it be okay if I then retrieved the

14     document and not put it on the ELMO, and then we can look at it through

15     e-court?  Thank you.  I just want to make sure -- sorry.  Thank you.

16     Wow.

17        Q.   Thank you, sir, and I'm sorry for that confusion on the document.

18             Sir, I want to focus your attention as we see on the third or the

19     fourth page of the English version where it says:

20             "Muminovic believes he spoke to Pandurevic at approximately 2000

21     hours on 15 July."

22             And as I stated earlier in English it seems to be 2001, but I

23     think that's a mistake but we'll let the Prosecutor address that.  I

24     think it should be 1995.  And that he believes, meaning Muminovic

25     believes that, "Both Pandurevic and Obrenovic may have been aware of his,

Page 31908

 1     Muminovic's, knowledge of the murders outside the column."

 2             Do you know where Mr. Muminovic gets this information from?

 3        A.   He did speak to me on the 15th, he didn't speak to Obrenovic

 4     though.  He didn't mention any men being killed, and he couldn't have

 5     known whether anyone else had any information about this.  I didn't know

 6     anything about it, and I didn't mention anything about it, and he didn't

 7     mention any killings to me either.

 8        Q.   On the 16th of July a day later, he also, while discussing this

 9     with the Prosecution, which is just a paragraph right below that, it's

10     actually the last paragraph in this exhibit, he continues to say that he

11     openly told you that he knew of the murders being committed and he goes

12     on to say as we can see:

13             " ... and that he begged Pandurevic to open a passage for the

14     column and to stop killing the people in the column."

15             Is that accurate or inaccurate from Mr. Muminovic's point of

16     view?

17        A.   I can compare this with his previous statement when he said that

18     he broke through the frontlines and made it possible for the columns to

19     pass through.  Here it says that he asked me to open up a corridor and to

20     stop killing people in the column.

21             What I said in the course of the examination-in-chief is the

22     correct version.

23        Q.   I just want to know because Mr. Muminovic was on your witness

24     list.  Did you talk to him about these issues when you guys put him on

25     your list as a potential witness for your defence case?  Did you say,

Page 31909

 1     Mr. Muminovic, you take a contrary position or -- strike that.

 2             You take a position saying, I knew about the murders.  I didn't

 3     know on the 15th about the murders.  I didn't know about on the 16th when

 4     we spoke.

 5             Did you have that kind of a discussion with him at all, with your

 6     witness?

 7        A.   I didn't speak to him as if he were a potential witness.  I spoke

 8     to him over the phone on two occasions.  I didn't know he had given

 9     statements, and I didn't know what he had said in those statements.  I

10     never spoke to him about the events in Baljkovica on the 15th and 16th.

11     He is on the list of witnesses, the 92 bis witness list but this has to

12     do with a different period and different events.  My Defence team never

13     spoke to him about these events in Baljkovica, as far as I know.

14        Q.   Okay.  And now just because -- I don't know exactly when the

15     break is, but I'm sure we'll find out.

16             When you said at one point he said you were begging to open the

17     column and this section it says he was begging.  Really to concretely

18     look at it we have to look at his third interview with the Prosecutor

19     where they finally decided to get the facts in the case and that was from

20     October 10th, 11th and 13th of 2001, but what I -- just in summary and

21     we'll go through it specifically but in summary it says he wanted you to

22     let the column go.  You initially said no.  They then advanced and made

23     an action against the Zvornik Brigade, opened the defence line, encircled

24     it, was about to crush it, then the table was turned, then he actually

25     says that you were begging him to open the column up, so I don't know

Page 31910

 1     that they are mutually exclusive.  He's saying initially he did beg for

 2     the column but later he took action and then he turned the tables on you

 3     and the Zvornik Brigade and then you were begging for it.

 4             Do you know that's what his position is in essence?

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

 6             MR. HAYNES:  That's a fantastically compound question.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic specialises in that.  Shall we

 8     have the break, and you think how to break it down into a number of

 9     smaller questions.

10             MR. OSTOJIC:  Maybe I'll try.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  25 minutes.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Just to answer the question

16     about that information report with the redactions on it.  I've looked at

17     that and that contained internal investigative information non-relevant

18     to the information that was on the latter half of the report.  Somehow

19     that mixed up an information report with an internal information so

20     that's why we had to do that but it should stay internal.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

22             Mr. Ostojic.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Sir, right before the break, I asked a long question as a

25     foundation, and I'd like us to look at Exhibit 2D637, please.  I'll try

Page 31911

 1     to break up my questions a little bit for you.

 2             As it's coming up, Mr. Pandurevic, I do have the B/C/S version if

 3     you prefer to have a hard copy, with the Court's permission and the

 4     usher's assistance, we can tender that to you of 2D637.  Thank you very

 5     much.

 6             This is an interview with Mr. Muminovic on the 10th, 11th, and

 7     13th of October, 2001, as indicated in the first page.  Have you seen

 8     this interview and reviewed it prior to your testimony here these past

 9     few weeks?

10        A.   I read through this a long time ago, perhaps last year.

11        Q.   This is a lengthy interview of approximately ten pages although

12     it has on the 11th and 12th page, witness acknowledgment and

13     interpreter's certification.  And I'd like to just direct your attention,

14     if I may, to the sixth page in English, as well as in B/C/S, and it

15     should be the entry that starts on the paragraph, "On 15 July, 1995."

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And I want to give you an opportunity to review that, so if you

18     could just take a moment and review that paragraph because I'd like to

19     ask a question about it, and we'll read along also but to ourselves.

20        A.   I've read through it.

21        Q.   That first paragraph, Mr. Muminovic just says that he had a

22     conversation with Obrenovic and that he requested him to let the people

23     pass, not to kill anybody.  And he has the date as the 15th of July,

24     1995.  Did Obrenovic ever share that conversation with you when you met

25     him at the command on the 15th of July, after 12.00 or 1.00 and forgive

Page 31912

 1     me for not knowing the precise time, but I thought it was always

 2     approximate after 12.00 when you arrived?

 3        A.   According to all the statements made by Obrenovic and on the

 4     basis of my own information and on the basis of conversations with

 5     Vukotic, Obrenovic did not speak to Semso on any occasion.  Vukotic

 6     didn't, so did I.

 7        Q.   Anyone else other than Dusko Vukotic and yourself that had

 8     conversations with Mr. Muminovic?

 9        A.   As I have said that's the information I had.  I certainly spoke

10     to him on the 15th and on the 16th, Vukotic spoke to him on the 15th.  As

11     for Obrenovic, there is no information according to which he spoke to

12     him.

13        Q.   Just so I get an answer to my question, so I'm correct that

14     Obrenovic didn't share anything with respect to this portion that

15     Mr. Muminovic claims that he spoke to Obrenovic, talked about letting the

16     column go, and talked about not killing the people.  Obrenovic never told

17     you any of that; correct?

18        A.   No, he didn't tell me anything.

19        Q.   Now, if we can turn on the next page which is page 7 of both the

20     English and B/C/S, and it's really the large paragraph basically in the

21     centre of the page that I'd like to focus your attention on.  And this is

22     where Mr. Muminovic kind of explains his position with respect to why the

23     column or the corridor was opened, so I know it's a lengthy paragraph but

24     please take your time and read through it, if you don't mind.

25        A.   I've read through this lengthy passage.

Page 31913

 1        Q.   I'm about to put a compound question.  I'm going to break it down

 2     on a couple of issues that I'd like to discuss with you.  In the fourth

 3     line at least in the English versions, on page 7 it says, it starts

 4     actually on the third line:

 5             "Since Jankovic had been arrested, Pandurevic was begging me to

 6     release Jankovic."

 7             Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Is it true that you were begging him to release Jankovic?

10        A.   We negotiated about this.  It wasn't a matter of begging.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now the next few lines he's discussing Mr. Muminovic is,

12     that he discussed with you opening the corridor letting the people go

13     through, and then he states that:

14             "Regardless of the negotiations, they continued with the ambushes

15     in the area of Baljkovica."

16             Do you see that?

17        A.   Well, I do.  No ambushes had been set up there, but the division

18     had been blocked and surrounded.

19        Q.   And then below that, the very next line, Mr. Muminovic is talking

20     about the negotiations lasting until 2100 hours and then he talks about

21     his military actions that he took that early morning about approximately

22     6.00 on the 16th where he attacked the Serbian front line, do you see

23     that?

24        A.   He did take action in the morning, offensive action, but he

25     didn't succeed in doing what he says he did.

Page 31914

 1        Q.   So far all he says is, I attacked the Serbian front line.  Is

 2     that accurate, to the best of your recollection?  It should be attacked

 3     the Serbian front line or the Serb front line, I'm sorry.

 4        A.   He launched an attack, that's what I've just said.

 5        Q.   From your answer, and then the next point I think you tell me if

 6     you disagree or agree with what Mr.  Muminovic is saying, at that point,

 7     he says:

 8             "I broke the front line in Baljkovica.  I seized the Obrenovic's

 9     forward command post and the battalion command and destroyed the firing

10     position of the mortar 82 and 120 mm and captured Dragan Tesic."

11             That's kind of the full sentence.

12             Do you agree or disagree with what Mr. Muminovic is saying there?

13        A.   That's not correct.  I don't know when Dragan Tesic was captured

14     but they didn't break through the front line after the corridor had been

15     opened up, some of their forces were sent through the corridor from the

16     direction of Nezuk to help to get the wounded out and to help those who

17     were leaving the 28th Division column.  And on that occasion, they set

18     fire to Praga and took that vehicle away.

19        Q.   Then he goes on, and he continues, and we read it to ourselves,

20     then he continues to say that he told you, apparently, at 1405 after you

21     reached the final agreement to let the people from Srebrenica go and stop

22     killing all civilians.

23             Did you have that kind of a conversation with Mr. Muminovic?

24        A.   Your Honours, I'd like to expand on this because otherwise I

25     might go down the wrong route with your leave.

Page 31915

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please, be all means, Mr. Pandurevic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much.

 3             The previous two statements that we saw, well one is from June,

 4     the other one from September.

 5             In the June statement, for the 16th, Mr. Muminovic says that he

 6     asked me to open a corridor.  In the statement from September, it says

 7     that at 6.30 he broke through the front line.  In this statement from

 8     October, we have a new version yet again but he insists on having

 9     established contact with me through Dragan Obrenovic; that's not correct.

10             On the 16th in the morning, events continued to unfold, that is

11     when wounded operations officer from the 28th Division were surrendered

12     to Obrenovic.  Obrenovic received information on the situation on the

13     28th Division, and that information was relayed to me and in the

14     meantime, I had received other information that Semso was looking for me

15     on the 16th and at about 10.00, I contacted him.

16             I then offered him a cease-fire and the possibility of letting

17     the column pass through.  You have seen the intercepts when I say -- when

18     I tell Obrenovic that I had reached an agreement with Semso.  We would

19     move our soldiers from the three trenches.  We showed them the places

20     that that would occur in, and we'd let the column pass through.  I

21     wouldn't conceal anything from Obrenovic.  I wouldn't conceal the fact

22     that the three trenches had been taken or that we would open up this

23     area.

24             If the 28th Division and the 2nd Corps had crushed me, everybody

25     would have known about that.  I would have conveyed all of that

Page 31916

 1     information to the corps, and I would have told them there was nothing I

 2     could do, and that I had been defeated in military terms.  That would

 3     have been quite possible but that's not what happened.  That's why my

 4     report from the 16th, my interim report, my interim combat report is such

 5     as it is and that is the whole truth, Mr. Ostojic.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   I just wanted to -- if you disagree with it and I don't know

 8     Mr. Muminovic at all, I just wanted to see -- really I just wanted to put

 9     it to you because it's there and I'm sure the Prosecution is going to ask

10     this.  So I'm not debating anything with you, sir.  What I want to know

11     is at the bottom of that page, page 7 on the English, and I think as well

12     on the B/C/S version, Mr. Muminovic says that there was an intercept that

13     was apparently captured.  He calls it first an information report and if

14     you read on which is the paragraph --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes.  Thank you.  Sorry.

17        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, directing your attention to the very next

18     paragraph and again on this exhibit, on page 7 in English and B/C/S,

19     Mr. Muminovic is talking about receiving an information report on the

20     16th of July.  Two lines below that, he refers to it as an intercept and

21     a conversation that he claims that you had with General Zivanovic, so I

22     just want to direct your attention to that and let me know when you've

23     read that full paragraph.

24        A.   I can see it and I've read through it, but I didn't speak to

25     General Zivanovic.  I don't know whether the document mentioned in the

Page 31917

 1     attachment -- mentioned as an attachment exists.  Perhaps we can have a

 2     look at it.

 3        Q.   That's what I was going to ask you.  Did you have a conversation

 4     with General Zivanovic on the 16th about the --

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   About anything, right?

 7        A.   I didn't speak to Mr. Zivanovic at all on that day.

 8        Q.   Maybe the Prosecutor will be kind enough to get the document for

 9     us because when we got this material, those documents were not attached

10     either so I haven't seen it.  I just wanted to see what your thoughts

11     were on that.

12             Now, I'd like to direct your attention if I may to page 10 of the

13     document or this exhibit, 2D637.  Sir, this is where, just to orientate

14     you on the document, it is when Mr. Muminovic is discussing his meeting

15     with Miladin Mijatovic in Tuzla and where this exchange apparently with

16     respect to a phone call happened.  So if you could take a look at those

17     three or so paragraphs, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

18        A.   Yes, yesterday I told you about these conversations between

19     myself and Semso after the war.

20        Q.   Who sent Miladin Mijatovic to meet with Mr. Muminovic in August

21     or beginning of September 2001?

22        A.   I asked Mijatovic to establish contact with him and to give me

23     his phone number.

24        Q.   Why?

25        A.   I wanted to speak to him on the phone.  I said something about

Page 31918

 1     this yesterday.

 2        Q.   That's why I'm just following up with this, with the document.

 3             The next paragraph here it says that in the last sentence in that

 4     fourth from the bottom paragraph, it says:

 5             "Pandurevic indicate that he had given interviews to 'Panorama'

 6     and other newspapers ..." do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do, but I don't remember giving any interviews to such

 8     newspapers.

 9        Q.   And then it goes on to say you're stating that you are not guilty

10     of any crimes and that a Muslim commander could provide information on

11     that topic.  Did you discuss that at all with Mr. Muminovic in September,

12     approximately, 5th of 2001?

13        A.   Yes, I don't know the exact date but I suggested, since I knew

14     that he was familiar with the way events actually unfolded in Baljkovica

15     on the 15th and 16th, I said if he wanted to be sincere and provide

16     information in the form of an interview to the media, well, then, he

17     could do so, so that the truth might come out because no one discussed

18     these things.

19        Q.   Did you discuss with any news outlets your position as

20     Mr. Muminovic indicates with either Panorama or other news agencies?

21        A.   Well, I can't even remember which newspapers are involved,

22     "Panorama," and as for the other conversation over a land line, the other

23     conversation with Mr. Muminovic, he suggested that he send a newspaper

24     from Bosnia so that I could give him an interview about these events, but

25     I didn't take him up on that suggestion.

Page 31919

 1        Q.   All right.  Let's look just quickly since we are on the topic of

 2     Mr. Muminovic, the tactical intercept and we'll bring that up for you,

 3     which is P2232, I believe.  And just so the Court is aware, the entire

 4     tactical intercept book was not translated but only certain portions so

 5     we -- there is a thick B/C/S version and we have just a few pages or so

 6     of the English version for the dates that I think are relevant.  I said a

 7     few, but there's actually 29 just so that it's clear on the record.

 8             I don't know if we have the original, and if we do, we just ask

 9     maybe it would be easier for Mr. Pandurevic to have the original when he

10     reads or answers questions.  You do not.  Okay.

11             I have a hard copy --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We can get it, but, of course, we don't have it

13     now.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think we can still go through it.

15        Q.   Now, sir, I want to orientate you to a couple of points in this

16     intercept or these tactical intercepts, and we talked a little bit about

17     code-names but I'd like for you to find, if you can, on the 13th of July,

18     and I'll give the ERN number --

19             MR. HAYNES:  Does the witness have the B/C/S version in front of

20     him in any format all?

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you, Mr. Pandurevic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have the B/C/S version

23     or the page that Mr. Ostojic is referring to in English either.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Maybe I could help.  It is P2231.  It is B/C/S

Page 31920

 1     version.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  The English version is P2232, the B/C/S version is

 4     P2231.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  I can give him mine.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  We can move now, it should be up.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  If we can be directed to the B/C/S ERN 0084-8949,

 9     which is approximately eight pages from the start of the exhibit.  Just

10     so we can orientate ourselves, we're trying to find the entry at

11     2050 hours and on the English page it's page 3, the bottom of the page.

12     At 2050, it proceeds to say:

13             "Lovac 1 reported to Lovac."

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Now, here, I just wanted again for you to tell us if you know who

17     Lovac 1 was and who he was reporting to?

18        A.   Lovac 1 was Dragan Obrenovic, and Lovac was the radio

19     communications centre according to the plan of communications network

20     that he had designed and which he discussed in his statement.

21        Q.   Okay.  And just for the English speakers, we're going to turn to

22     the next page, page 4, but for B/C/S, we're still staying on this 949

23     page and there's a discussion there about a vehicle, there's a discussion

24     about "Premijer," and that's still on the 13th because I think if you

25     look at the date right underneath it at least in English it shows that

Page 31921

 1     it's the 14th, but I'm presuming that, you correct me if I am wrong, and

 2     then it talks about in parentheses, it has the name Ljubo, do you see

 3     that?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Who are they talking about here?

 6        A.   About Ljubo.

 7        Q.   I know, but do you know which Ljubo?

 8        A.   I can only assume that it's Ljubo Bojanovic, if this person is

 9     attached to the Zvornik Brigade.  If he is not, I don't know who he is.

10        Q.   Who are the other people that they are referencing there

11     "Premijer" and ...

12        A.   We said that "Premijer" was the code-name for the radio intercept

13     station of the Zvornik Brigade, the other names are code-names of the

14     units that took part in the blockade of the 28th Division.

15        Q.   Now, if you turn the page, sir, they are talking and the same

16     page in English, page 4 on the next day which is the 14th of July, and

17     I'll have to concede this, Mr. Pandurevic, you may not be able to read

18     the B/C/S version because I think the copies are actually rather poor,

19     that's basically how we received them and I guess that's the way it is.

20             At 1330, it has a conversation with Roki, and this would be on

21     ERN 8950, it has at 1330 Roki and Omega requested a package from Roki.

22     Do you see that?

23        A.   I can see it in English but not in the Bosnian.

24        Q.   Okay.  I think that will be okay.  What are they referring to

25     here, a package?

Page 31922

 1        A.   A certain Roki and Omega are talking but I don't know whose

 2     code-names these are, and what kind of packages they are referring to,

 3     whether they are referring to human beings or something else, I don't

 4     know.

 5        Q.   Who was Roki and Omega?

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  He just told you that he doesn't --

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  I was flipping the pages, thank you, Mr. President,

 8     sorry.

 9        Q.   Let's then go to the 15th of July, which is in the English pages

10     8 through 14 and for you, Mr. Pandurevic, we should start, I think, at

11     the last three numbers being 953 on the B/C/S version.  That's where it

12     starts just so he can see the date but then I'll direct his attention

13     when he cease the numbers the last three numbers 957 in the B/C/S, and

14     page 13 in the English.

15             So again, sir, just to orientate ourselves, it seems to be that

16     this is a tactical intercept from the 15th of July, and I want to focus

17     your attention on the entry that starts at 1345 and it says:

18             "Vuk spoke to Zukov again ..." and you just let me know when

19     you've seen that.

20        A.   I can see it in English, but I can't see it in Bosnian.

21        Q.   Okay.  Are we okay to proceed, but I think in the B/C/S it would

22     be 8957 are the last four ERN numbers.  Then we're looking at the entry

23     at 1345.

24        A.   Yes, I can see it now.

25        Q.   Now, immediately the third line underneath that it talks about

Page 31923

 1     Igman and Igman 1, and who are they again?

 2        A.   Igman was artillery, as far as I remember, the mixed artillery

 3     battalion, and Igman 1 was one of its units.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  The next paragraph or next few lines we tried to -- I

 5     covered it yesterday in part asking you who Vuk was, Ikar, Pavle; do you

 6     see that entry there, those three individuals?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, I do.  I said yesterday that Vuk was Vukotic, that was

 8     his code-name for the most time and that probably that was the name used

 9     at that time as well.

10        Q.   It identifies the three people, Vuk, Ikar and Pavle, and I know

11     that you said Dusko Vukotic negotiated with Mr. Muminovic as did you, but

12     Obrenovic did not.  The entry I want to get your -- get an answer to

13     this, it says:

14             "I talked to Semso (Vuk) and stopped the activities."

15             Who, other than you, sir, was talking to Semso and who other than

16     you -- well I don't want to make a compound question.  We'll stop there.

17     Who other than you and Dusko Vukotic were talking to Semso Muminovic on

18     the 15th of July after 1345 hours?

19        A.   I don't know if anyone else spoke to him.  Maybe somebody from

20     the MUP.  All I know is that I and Vukotic spoke to him.

21        Q.   Then it goes on to say:

22             " ... stopped the activities."

23             Who other than you, sir, was able to stop the activities?

24        A.   I cannot see clearly here in the original whether a proposal was

25     made to stop the activities or if they had actually been stopped.  I

Page 31924

 1     would appreciate if this page can be enlarged, if possible.

 2        Q.   We're going to try also, Mr. Pandurevic, to get the original so

 3     that --

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The original is in evidence as you may recall

 6     when the witness came.  It is gettable, that will take a bit of time.  We

 7     can try right now, but it seems like it may be worth waiting to get the

 8     original as opposed to this -- what's -- what sounds like guess work and

 9     I don't think the witness should rely on the English.

10             And on another topic, the intercept that was the attachment of

11     the Muminovic statement, I am told is 65 ter 1183 from 16 July, 0706

12     hours if you want to get it up on the screen.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  In the meantime, is it possible to zoom

14     in further?  Maybe that will make it easier for the witness.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Can you work with that, Mr. Pandurevic, or do you

17     want it ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to read, Your Honours.

19             "Vuk, Ikar, Pavle, I spoke with Semso (Vuk) and stopped the

20     activities.  They are --" [No interpretation]

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm sorry, Mr. Pandurevic, they haven't translated

22     it, so I don't mean to stop you.  They stopped, actually, where you said

23     they care for the head of the column, soldiers.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  They stopped at -- the interpretation stopped with

25     the words "and stopped the activities.  Then you continued reading.  If

Page 31925

 1     you could repeat it again slowly, Mr. Pandurevic.

 2             Let's zoom in a little bit further.  I think we can still do

 3     that.  Understanding that will make it easier.

 4             Can you start again from after the word "activities."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, certainly.

 6             " ... they care about the head of the column (army).  I suggested

 7     to him that they let all those from the central prison in Tuzla and we

 8     shall -- these -- Pavle, we cannot --" I can't make out this word, and

 9     then it says "negotiations."

10             I think it says something like we are not authorised to

11     negotiate.

12             What is Semso saying about the captured policemen, he says that

13     they were there alive and so on and so forth.

14             Shall I keep on reading, Your Honours?

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't know.  Mr. Ostojic, do you need him to read

16     more?

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  I thought the Court asked him to read it but no,

18     that's fine for this point right here.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Fine, thank you.

20             MR. OSTOJIC:  And I want to break it down a little bit.

21        Q.   And I know you don't know or you told us who the people are:

22     Vuk, Ikar and Pavle.  It says here that there was a suggestion to release

23     all those from the central prison in Tuzla, and in English we have here

24     "and we would release these," so who other than you were negotiating with

25     Mr. Muminovic because it seems from this tactical intercept on the

Page 31926

 1     15th of July at 1345 hours, whoever these three people are, they

 2     certainly knew that there was some prisoners and there was a discussion

 3     on exchanging some from Tuzla with those that they were keeping, meaning

 4     "they", the Zvornik Brigade, in essence?

 5        A.   Mr. Ostojic, you understand this conversation perfectly well.

 6     Look at it once again.  The persons talking are Vuk, Ikar, and Pavle, and

 7     the signalsman on the Muslim side who was recording this.  Vuk speaks

 8     first and says, I spoke to Semso.  It's the signalsman who put Vuk in

 9     parentheses which means that Vuk spoke to Semso, and the activities were

10     stopped, "and they care," and that is what Vuk is saying, "they care

11     about the head of the column," and it was Vuk who suggested that they

12     release all those from the central prison in Tuzla and we shall release

13     these.  It is Vuk who is proposing the cease-fire and the cessation of

14     combat, not Pavle or Ikar.

15             Pavle said that he was not authorised to negotiate.

16        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that, but my point is that Vuk was a

17     member of the Zvornik Brigade.  You told us that his name was

18     Dusko Vukotic, he on the 15th of July, 1995, at 1345 hours, he's talking

19     about exchanging prisoners that he has, isn't he, with those that Bosnian

20     Muslims have from the central prison in Tuzla?

21        A.   When Vuk says "these men," he's referring to the 28th Division.

22     Since you are pushing me to the limit, you persistently avoid a

23     conversation where Ljubo did not take part, only his surname was

24     mentioned.  After Krstic had send me to Zvornik to fight the

25     28th Division, he asked 20 or 30 men from Krstic to deliver packages or

Page 31927

 1     distribute packages.  Vukotic had no men to offer for exchange.  If he

 2     was referring to the 28 columns the one who was asking for this to be

 3     sent was on my doorstep to put it figuratively, but he says you'd better

 4     speak to Vasic or Obrenovic don't speak to Pandurevic although it he is

 5     close to you because he wouldn't dare speak to me about this or he didn't

 6     trust me.

 7        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, I'm sorry if you think that I'm pushing you to

 8     the limit, that's not my intent.  I just wanted clarification on this

 9     intercept.

10             If you don't mind, if we can proceed with the next passage which

11     in English appears on page 14, and I think it continues on the same page

12     in B/C/S although they would have to probably scroll -- I think it's

13     actually good there because it's immediately before the 1510 entry and

14     the word Pavle and Pekos, so we pretty much have it.

15             Again, sir, this is a tactical intercept after 1345 but before

16     1510 hours on the 15th of July, 1995.  We have the English translation,

17     but I just want to make sure that you can read that, those four or five

18     lines because you'd like to ask you a couple questions about that.

19        A.   Shall I read the last three lines out loud?

20        Q.   If the Court would like you to you can, but for my purposes you

21     don't just the Court indicated earlier to read so ...

22        A.   Very well.

23        Q.   Here, they are discussing a captured policeman and if anything

24     happened to him, and then someone says it will be 100 for 1; do you see

25     that?

Page 31928

 1        A.   Well, obviously someone from the police was inquiring about these

 2     policemen and this person Pavle could be someone from the MUP.

 3        Q.   It goes on to say Pavle told him not to negotiate with him so

 4     just so I'm right -- make you could tell us it's Pavle telling Vuk not to

 5     negotiate with Mr. Muminovic; correct?  Did I get that right at least?

 6        A.   Probably.  Pavle was passing instructions to him not to

 7     negotiate.

 8        Q.   If Pavle is with the MUP possibly, why would he be giving

 9     instructions to one of your men in the Zvornik Brigade?

10        A.   They were in contact.  They were talking to each other.  Maybe

11     this man thought that was a better approach.  But if I had given this

12     order, why would I be negotiating afterwards?

13        Q.   I'm only asking to clarify this, I'm not testing you on.  It goes

14     on to say:

15             "We'll kill them in the and he can fire at Serbia, Belgrade,

16     Zvornik as much as he wants" the next sentence I wanted to get your

17     thoughts on and he says:  "Tell him that all of them should surrender in

18     Orahovac."

19             Again, 15th of July after 1340 hours and apparently before 1510

20     hours, what was happening in Orahovac that they would be surrendering and

21     who is surrendering?  I mean why Orahovac of all places?  Did Pavle and

22     this guy, Vuk, know what was happening in Orahovac at that time?

23        A.   Nobody surrendered in Orahovac at that time.  Unfortunately on

24     the afternoon of the 14th, all those who were held prisoner in Orahovac

25     were executed.

Page 31929

 1        Q.   But my question is:  Why would he tell him, who is the "him" that

 2     all of them should surrender in Orahovac?  Is Pavle telling Dusko Vukotic

 3     or is Dusko Vukotic telling Pavle or what?

 4        A.   Tell him to have them all surrendered in Orahovac.  I don't know

 5     what this means and what he wanted to say.  What I know is that at the

 6     time mentioned here, there was no one held prisoner in Orahovac.  Even

 7     all those who were shot dead on the 14th had been buried by that time and

 8     that was a fact established in the course of this trial.

 9        Q.   Well, you don't know -- you didn't know that information on the

10     15th of July, 1995; correct?

11        A.   That's correct, I said that a few times.

12        Q.   And you didn't know that information on the 16th of July, 1995;

13     correct?

14        A.   On the evening of the 16th, I knew that men had been shot dead in

15     Orahovac.

16        Q.   When we look at this entry, do you think, to the best -- if you

17     answer this -- do you think Pavle and Vuk or Ikar that they knew what was

18     happening in Orahovac, and that's why they are asking for the rest of the

19     column to surrender in Orahovac?

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Haynes.

21             MR. HAYNES:  It's just an invitation to speculate.  It's also

22     about four questions at the same time.  He is a factual witness.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Ostojic.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.

25        Q.   Mr. Pandurevic, if we could look at the July 16th entry which is

Page 31930

 1     8958 in B/C/S and page 15 in the English version.  I only bring this up

 2     because you mentioned some intercept that you talked about on your direct

 3     examination but -- and it starts at 32 and I, or 1, talked, "A package

 4     went up there ten minutes ago."  This again just so you know, I think

 5     it's the 16th of July, 1995, at 8.15.

 6             Just let me know when you've seen it.

 7        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 8        Q.   Do you know what package they're talking about?

 9        A.   It says 31 and 2 talked, maybe it was radio package

10     communication, whether it was the form of the communication that took

11     place.

12        Q.   Okay.  Skipping along the next couple of pages which is page 19

13     in the English version and 8961 in the B/C/S.  The entry is 1100 hours

14     "Lovac 1 and Palma, the road is free."

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction it should be radio

16     packet communication.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Sir, just to direct your attention this again, I believe, from

19     looking at it is the 16th of July, 1995.

20        A.   I don't see where it says that the road is passable or free.  I

21     suppose that it's where the cursor is but this word is not clear.  I can

22     only discern the road is ...

23        Q.   Okay and that's okay because that's not really -- my question was

24     just directing your attention to that paragraph.

25             I really want to -- if you can find where Palma asks Lovac 1:

Page 31931

 1             "Are the Turks at the school?"

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And this is on the 16th of July, 1995 at approximately 1100

 4     hours.  Do you have any information as to what Palma and Lovac 1, who is

 5     Obrenovic, were talking about when they were asking:  "Are the Turks at

 6     the school?"

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Would you share that with us?

 9        A.   I was Palma, Lovac 1 was Obrenovic, and the reference was made of

10     the old school in Baljkovica close to the defence line, and if you look

11     at the map, you will see the letter SH [as interpreted], which stands for

12     school.

13        Q.   We'll get that map.  I was hoping to have it today, but we'll get

14     it for sure on Monday, and we'll go through it a little bit.

15             Now, we couldn't hear what Lovac 1 says and what did he say in

16     response to this when you asked him:  "Are the Turks at the school?"

17        A.   I honestly don't remember.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to clarify, is it SH for school or some

21     other letters?

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  It's SK, I think the witness says in B/C/S but I

23     think they just translated it, it's SK I think.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's my question.  We got SH so I just want to

25     clarify that if it's going to be a map reference, especially.

Page 31932

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  We don't have the map here.

 2        Q.   But to the best of your recollection, Mr. Pandurevic, the

 3     reference to the school was abbreviated Sk; right?

 4        A.   Yes, there's a topographic sign and it's marked S, capital S.

 5     That's the diacritic and small k.

 6        Q.   Now talking about this entry here, it talks about the men from

 7     Bratunac as well, a line or two above that and the men from Bratunac from

 8     time to time we've seen some reference that we were in Orahovac.  Now,

 9     here it says, "Palma personally orders them to conquer elevations above

10     the school."

11             What I'd like to know from you is what school is that?  I know in

12     the second portion of that when I asked you are the Turks at the school,

13     you told us that, but now there's another entry of school so I wanted to

14     make sure it's maybe the same, but I'd rather have you answer it than me

15     speculate.

16        A.   It's the same school in Baljkovica, the old school.  And these

17     are the men who came to the 4th Battalion --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Pandurevic,

20     please, for the interpreters.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  So this is the same

22     school in Baljkovica, which was burned down at the time.  The men from

23     Bratunac are the unit from Bratunac that had arrived on the 15th and

24     deployed in the defence zone of the 4th Battalion.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:

Page 31933

 1        Q.   Now, I see that they've given you, I think, the tactical

 2     intercept original P2231; correct, sir?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And with all due respect since we covered it, but perhaps not

 5     as -- since we didn't have the original, and we did have some trouble

 6     reading it, if I can direct your attention, again, to the entry, and that

 7     would be on the B/C/S last four numbers 8957 which was the entry on the

 8     15th of July at or after 1345 hours.  I think if you find that 1345 then

 9     we would be able to orientate ourselves to it and on the English

10     it's page --

11        A.   Yes, I found it.

12        Q.   And on English it's page 13 and then proceeding on page 14.

13        A.   Yes, I can even see some additional words.

14        Q.   Okay.  Would you be kind enough, and I apologise for having to

15     ask you this again, to read that section again where it starts with Vuk,

16     Ikar, Pavle, so that we could get it and then we could all appreciate,

17     perhaps, what it says.  Out loud if it's okay with Mr. President.

18        A.   Before I start reading this out, when it says 1345 well could I

19     start reading out from there?  It says:

20             "Vuk spoke to Zukov again and agreed on a truce."

21             Then supposedly there were to be negotiations.  Later he fired a

22     shell, 1 for 1.  Igman, Igman 1.  Put to all fighting, 1410 hours.  Then

23     it goes on:

24             "Vuk-Ikar-Pavle, I spoke to Semso (Vuk)," so he spoke to him,

25     "and stopped the action.  They care for the head of the column

Page 31934

 1     (soldiers).  I suggested that he release all of those from the central

 2     prison in Tuzla and we would release these.  Pavle -- we don't have a

 3     mandate for negotiations or authority to negotiate."   So this word

 4     "mandate" is not a word that I previously saw it in the copy.

 5        Q.   I think they got it in English so thank you for that.

 6             Sir, with respect to this now having looked at the original, what

 7     Vuk and Pavle are talking about is an exchange of prisoners to exchange

 8     the prisoners that the BiH had for the prisoners that the Zvornik Brigade

 9     had.  When they talk about:

10             "I suggested him to release all those from the prison and we

11     would release these."

12             It doesn't say you'd open the column or create a corridor for the

13     column to pass, he's specifically talking about POWs, isn't he?

14        A.   That's your interpretation, but I absolutely disagree with it.

15        Q.   Okay.  And basically it's because at that time, you were under

16     the impression that you had no prisoners on the 15th of July at

17     approximately or after 1345 hours; correct?

18        A.   Well, that's correct, I didn't know -- I didn't even have any

19     prisoners, Mr. Ostojic, someone else had on the 13th, 14th and 15th.  I

20     didn't ...

21        Q.   I'm not suggesting that you did personally, sir, and I'm just

22     saying that maybe the Zvornik Brigade didn't tell you because it looks

23     like they didn't give you a lot of information, and they didn't keep you

24     well informed or abreast of everything that was happening, especially

25     when you see the involvement of this Colonel Dragomir Vasic with the

Page 31935

 1     6th Battalion from time to time.  So I just want to clarify this point

 2     one more time.

 3             Maybe this person, Vuk, and maybe this guy, Pavle, knew, but you

 4     didn't; but they're talking pretty clearly here it seems to me about

 5     exchanging prisoners.

 6        A.   Here, they're talking about a column, about the column.  They

 7     were talking about leaving the column.  I didn't know who was in the

 8     central prison in Tuzla.  Vasic was in a better position to know

 9     something about that as he was a policeman.

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.

11             Now, you told us when you were -- in 1993, you also negotiated a

12     passage of a column at that time, again I think you said without having

13     the authority to do that from the higher or corps command or Main Staff;

14     is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, as in this case.

16        Q.   We'll get to that.  And you weren't -- were you at all

17     reprimanded, disciplined as a result, in 1993, of opening this column?

18        A.   I quite simply didn't want to fire on the column, and I didn't

19     want to prevent it from passing through.  I let it pass through.

20        Q.   No, what I'm asking you did the corps or the Main Staff or any

21     military organisation reprimand, discipline, or sanction you in any way

22     for opening a column which wasn't authorised?

23        A.   No.  At that time, they didn't even know anything about the

24     circumstances under which all of this occurred.

25        Q.   Okay.  I know it's late, but I don't mean like right that day or

Page 31936

 1     that next day, I mean ultimately, a week, a month, a year later when they

 2     found out, or maybe they still don't know.  But they -- at no time were

 3     you ever disciplined or reprimanded or sanctioned as a result of opening

 4     up a corridor in 1993; is that correct?

 5        A.   No, I wasn't officially sanctioned punished or reprimanded.  It

 6     was war and they needed me while the fighting continued.

 7        Q.   Well I'll let you or someone else talk about this official or

 8     unofficial stuff.  In fact, after that you were promoted from major to

 9     Lieutenant-Colonel, were you not?  That was from 1993 you were a major,

10     and then you were promoted to lieutenant-colonel on June 23rd, 1994?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I think, Mr. Pandurevic, that they didn't reprimand sanction or

13     discipline you in any way because they agreed with your decision; would

14     that be right?

15        A.   Well, the decision was taken by myself, it had been carried out

16     and after the event, there was nothing they could do to prevent that from

17     happening.

18        Q.   In November of 1993, did the Zvornik Brigade negotiate a truce

19     and a prisoners exchange?  And again, sir, November 1993?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   How many prisoners at that time did the Zvornik Brigade have?

22        A.   I can't remember.  I think there were two or three prisoners who

23     were captured in the immediate vicinity of the front.  I can't remember

24     all the details now.

25        Q.   Well, do you remember if the enemy side gave you a list of

Page 31937

 1     persons it was interested in for exchange?

 2        A.   Well, I'm not sure.  I think we had two of their prisoners and

 3     they had one of our men, and we organised an exchange.  That should be in

 4     the documents somewhere.  They were prisoners who were captured at the

 5     front line itself.

 6        Q.   Was there ever a temporary battalion set up for combat operations

 7     in Rocevic?

 8        A.   A temporary battalion didn't exist in Rocevic.  At the beginning

 9     of 1995, we trained men.  We would take young soldiers to that area and

10     train them there.  There was never a temporary battalion there.  There

11     were soldiers from all battalions in that area.

12        Q.   Thank you for that.  And that special -- or that scheduled

13     training for combat operations, you conducted that in Rocevic as well as

14     in Orahovac; correct?

15        A.   I can remember that in Rocevic, the features were such that it

16     was possible for us to provide the training we wanted to provide, and I

17     was there for a while and followed the training provided.

18        Q.   What about Orahovac?

19        A.   As for Orahovac, I'm not sure.  When the line in Memici was

20     taken, I know that a unit was established or set up and went to Memici to

21     the line, but as for training in Orahovac, no, I can't remember anything

22     about that.

23        Q.   I'll ask a couple more questions before we break.  Whose zone or

24     area of responsibility was that in Rocevic where the scheduled training

25     for combat operations was being conducted?

Page 31938

 1        A.   We provided training.  We weren't involved in combat operations

 2     there.  It wasn't a training ground.  It was a state-owned land.

 3        Q.   Let me just show you quickly because we only have a few minutes

 4     7D454, and I think you've seen this document, it's a report dated the

 5     11th of November 1993 signed by Nenad Simic.  And I think we looked at it

 6     to see that he was the assistant commander for moral guidance, religious

 7     and legal affairs, and I have the B/C/S hard copy if you'd like, but I

 8     don't know that it's necessary because I'm sure it's in e-court.

 9             Sir, I just want you to see the first page there, and then if you

10     look under paragraph 3, in English it would be the second.  Page, it

11     talks about training of the temporary battalion.  I didn't read your

12     report, but it seems to have a temporary battalion there and then it

13     talks and I'll let you catch up so you can answer the question.  But it

14     says in the first sentence and I'll read it:

15             "The scheduled training for combat operations of the newly-formed

16     temporary battalion is underway in Rocevic and Orahovac."

17        A.   Yes, I can see that training was to take place in Orahovac too

18     and I don't remember that training there.  I remember Rocevic.  Well, I

19     know that there are no good features in Orahovac which would make it

20     possible for the kind of training that we wanted to be provided, to be

21     provided.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. Pandurevic.  I have about,

23     Mr. Pandurevic, so you know as well, approximately an hour and a half but

24     no -- I don't believe any more.  I'll try to shorten it when I look at

25     this and to the extent that I can conclude in short order, I would on

Page 31939

 1     Monday, if acceptable.  Thank you, sir.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course that is acceptable, Mr. Ostojic.  We'll

 3     adjourn today, resuming Monday morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.

 5                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

 6                           February, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.