1 Friday, 27 February 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning everybody. And good morning,
7 Madam Registrar. Could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, our presentation as yesterday but I don't see
11 Mr. Sarapa, Mr. Ostojic, and Mr. Bourgon. All right. Ready to go,
12 Mr. McCloskey. Good morning to you and good morning to you,
13 Mr. Pandurevic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, good morning. Morning,
16 Your Honours, everyone, General.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'd like to start of with just
19 briefly answering as much as I can right now -- briefly --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: 40 -- 4039?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, the question about the diary yesterday.
22 And we've checked the -- as I'd stated yesterday, the hard copies we've
23 been using and the electronic copies are all in the correct order. There
24 was no impropriety, no making things straight. There was no problem
25 whatsoever there. So I don't know where that came from. I know
1 sometimes things seem a little different when looking at the screen. And
2 also, as you could tell, I was a bit taken aback by that charge of the
3 most misleading cross-examination because I hadn't recalled any problem
4 with the book. And let me read to you what happened. I'm sure this is a
5 question of memory because back -- Mr. Trivic in the 21st of May, 2007,
6 Mr. Thayer had him on the witness stand and said at page 11875:
7 "Now, lastly, sir, I want to ask you to discuss a couple of
8 questions about two entries in your diary. At this time, if you still
9 have it with you, sir - and I've also been asked by one of my friends
10 across the aisle to make sure that you have it available for your
11 testimony - it may be easier for you to refer to that original diary
12 which we furnished to my friends. Feel free to take it out now, sir, if
13 you need to consult with it.
14 "Sir, I note you've taken out what I believe is your diary that
15 I've furnished to my friends, and it's perfectly appropriate if you need
16 to, to refer to it in answer to some of my questions or the questions of
17 my colleague or the Trial Chamber, but I would ask that, unless you
18 absolutely have to, if you can put it to the side so that we all
19 understand that when you're answering a question, that it comes from your
20 memory, and if you do need the aid that we know for the record when you
21 are getting the aid. Okay? Thank you, sir."
22 We will endeavour to get the original diary again to further
23 answer any questions that may arise. That was on page 11813. Okay.
24 WITNESS: VINKO PANDUREVIC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
2 Q. General, we were on the 15 July intercept, 65 ter 1179A, and
3 B/C/S 1179B. And I do not have a hard copy for you, if we could rely on
4 the computer for that, I apologise. And let that part get up there.
5 I'll read this slowly in English and if you can't make that out we can
6 come up with a print-out, if need be, but we're almost done with it.
7 As you'll recall this is the lower third of this conversation
8 where we -- Krstic had said: "Check with Blagojevic. Take his red
10 Beara says: "They are not there. Only four of them are still
11 there. They took off, fuck 'em, they're not there anymore."
12 Krstic says: "I'll see what I can do."
13 Beara says: "Check it out and have them go to Drago's?"
14 Given what we know, what do you believe this Drago reference to
16 A. We mentioned yesterday that second intercept talking about
17 location 139 where Zivanovic called to get him to call Beara, and we
18 found out whose number that was and that's Drago. The man with the
19 extension 139.
20 Q. Okay. And Krstic goes on: "I can't guarantee anything, I'll
21 take steps."
22 Beara: "Krle I don't know what to do anymore."
23 Krstic: "Ljubo, then take those MUP guys from up there."
24 Beara: "No, they won't do anything. I talked to them. There's
25 no other solution but for those 15 to 30 men with Indjic. They were
1 supposed to arrive on the 13th but didn't."
2 Has Mr. Beara ever told you which MUP guys he is talking about
4 A. Mr. Beara never told me anything about this, and from this first
5 part of the conversation we see that some were brought from Bratunac.
6 The red berets or whatever they call them. And they were probably
7 engaged to take part in the execution activities. Some of them left and
8 some of them stayed. However, with Ljubisa Beara I never discussed this
9 and he never made any comments.
10 Q. So you have no idea which MUP guys refused to take part in this,
11 according to this conversation?
12 A. Well, I suppose somebody from the public security centre in
14 Q. Dragomir Vasic or Mane Djuric would be the two top people from
15 the public security centre in Zvornik; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. We go on: Krstic: "Ljubo, you have to understand me too.
18 You guys fucked me up so much."
19 What do you think he means by that?
20 A. Well, I can only derive my opinion and position from the context
21 as to what he means when he says this. Krstic must have become aware of
22 all that had happened by that moment, and he was not really willing to go
23 on participating in all that because those executions that had happened,
24 that's probably what he means, that a lot had been done to him.
25 Q. Doesn't he mean that the resources required of this operation
1 were a big draw on Krstic and that's what fucked him up so much? Having
2 to deal with this operation for one, and having to deal with the
3 resources to staff it for the other?
4 A. Well, you see, from the context of this conversation, Beara is
5 expecting Indjic, and Indjic had been assigned to him before, probably.
6 The resources who would be taking part in this had already been
7 determined, and now somebody is asking for more resources from Krstic.
8 That's how I understand it.
9 Q. Beara goes on:
10 "I understand, but you have to understand me too, had this been
11 done then, we wouldn't be arguing over it now."
12 Krstic: "Fuck it, now I'll be the one to blame."
13 Beara: "I don't know what to do. I mean it, Krle. There are
14 still 3.500 parcels that I have to distribute and I have no solution."
15 What do you think he means when he says 3.500 parcels to
17 A. Well, as General Zivanovic said, to the best of his knowledge,
18 Ljubo was not a postman. He probably meant those people who were held
19 prisoners, that they had to get rid of them.
20 Q. And when you say get rid of, you mean kill?
21 A. Probably.
22 Q. Okay.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Bourgon, who, for the record, entered the
24 courtroom about five minutes ago. Yes.
25 MR. BOURGON: Good morning, Mr. President. I'd like first of all
1 to object to this entire line of questioning that is being put to the
2 witness and I'd like Mr. McCloskey -- whether he could enlighten us as to
3 what is the purpose of the questioning. Is he trying to challenge the
4 credibility of the witness or is the witness being asked to answer
5 questions in his capacity as an expert witness?
6 This is a conversation to which he was not privy to. These are
7 events in which he was not involved and now we are asking him to explain
8 what do you think Mr. Beara said or what do you think this happened, what
9 do you think this means.
10 This is entirely improper, Mr. President. It doesn't help us --
11 it doesn't help the trier of fact in any way. The questions are being
12 put to the witness can be answered by anybody this courtroom as well as
13 by the witness, and we are both wasting time and we are not going
14 anywhere with these questions.
15 Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Would you like to comment
17 very briefly, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I would need to make an argument which I
19 don't think is necessary. This witness is perfectly capable of providing
20 his views, and I don't want to derogate Mr. Butler, but I think this
21 witness in a position to be able to provide us his views and I think we
22 know the context by which we are getting them.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
24 MR. BOURGON: Mr. President, my colleague just said, the
25 witness -- he would like to have the views of the witness. The views of
1 the witness will not get this courtroom and this trial anywhere further.
2 All we are going to do is doing something that is - I hate to say this
3 word because I can't pronounce it - sensationalism. That's all we're
4 doing here. Nothing else. This won't help the trier of fact at the end
5 of the day to know what the views of this witness are on this particular
6 intercept. He is not privy to the conversation, Mr. President. This is
7 simply guess-work. Thank you.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry but I need to respond to that.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey, finish ... [Microphone not
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Bourgon, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Bourgon, we
13 completely disagree with you or even view your question as almost
14 obstructive. Let's proceed. It's a perfectly legitimate question which
15 the witness can answer, having lived those circumstances in those days.
16 So let's proceed. Having heard or not heard the intercept, if it ever
17 happened, is another matter.
18 Yes, Mr. Pandurevic.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Okay. Just to finish it off, Krstic says:
21 "I'll see what I can do."
22 And then of course we see on the 16th, you'll agree with me, the
23 appearance at the Zvornik Brigade command of the 10th Sabotage Detachment
24 with Drazen Erdemovic and others, and we know where they went and what
25 they did; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Now, let's go to 65 ter number 334. This
3 is your 18th of July interim combat report. And it should be page 2 of
4 the English, and page 5 of the B/C/S. And it's under paragraph 4. I
5 know you've talked about this. I won't spend a lot of time with it.
6 Under paragraph 4, the situation in the territory, you say:
7 "During the last 10 days or so, the municipality of Zvornik
8 been swamped with Srebrenica Turks. It is inconceivable to me that
9 someone brought in 3.000 Turks of military age and placed them in schools
10 in the municipality, in addition to 7.000 or so who have fled into the
11 forests. This has created an extremely complex situation and the
12 possibility of total occupation of Zvornik in conjunction with the forces
13 at the front. These actions have stirred up great discontent among the
14 people and the general opinion is that Zvornik is to pay the price for
15 taking of Srebrenica."
16 Now, General, when you say "these actions" are you including in
17 that the murder of those thousands of Srebrenica Muslims?
18 A. I heard the word "these actions," but I can't find that word
19 "actions" in the original. But it is certain when I wrote this, this was
20 a way of making it known that these people were killed in the
21 municipality of Zvornik, that's where it says Zvornik was swamped, and
22 the rest of the paragraph means that the liberation of Srebrenica cost
23 Zvornik its life, and even now it's a place where only weeds grow and
24 Zvornik did nothing to deserve that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, sorry to butt in. You started your
1 answer by saying, "I heard the word 'these actions.'" These actions were
2 actually spoken by Mr. McCloskey. Then you added, "but I can't find that
3 word 'actions' in the original." What do you find in the original,
4 because ultimately this is a document that you authored yourself?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it's caused by these
6 actions. Yes, that's what it says. I just didn't notice it at first.
7 What is meant is the action of bringing these people into Zvornik
8 municipality and their liquidation.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. So when speaking of the liquidation or the murder of these
11 Muslims, you have deliberately spoken here in cryptic, meaning thinly
12 veiled or thinly disguised terms?
13 A. Yes. For the person who received this report, that was the corps
14 command, it was quite clear what I meant by these words, and my intention
15 was to leave a written trace of these events so that history might know
16 what really happened.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, let's now go to 65 ter 329. Another report
18 to that same commander, and in the view of the Prosecution on the same
20 Q. And if I could hand you the original. And I will go over this
21 just so that when we get to the part I'm most concerned with, we'll at
22 least have the context in our mind:
23 "Since the fall of Srebrenica in the territory of the
24 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade area of responsibility, in the wider area of
25 Pandurica, Planinci, Crni Vrh, Kamenica, and Glodjansko Brdo, there are
1 about 3.000 armed and unarmed enemy soldiers. Brigade forces are sealing
2 off and searching the aforementioned region. A few hundred enemy
3 soldiers have so far been liquidated.
4 "Throughout 15 July 1995
5 launched fierce attacks on the brigade Defence area in order to link up
6 with the forces which had been cut off. The attack on the Defence area
7 of the 4th, 6th, and 7th Battalions along the Petkovci-Memici stretch,
8 was launched at 0430 hours, with simultaneous actions by the besieged
10 "Enemy attacks were vigorously supported by all calibres of
11 artillery and tanks. Attacks of varying intensity followed one other
12 from the direction of Nezuk and Kalesija on Memici. The attack on Memici
13 is still in progress. All targets deep inside the territory, and the
14 suburbs and town of Zvornik
15 have been repulsed successfully so far.
16 "So far, according to information received, we have four dead and
17 a dozen or so wounded. With all available forces, we have sealed off the
18 wider area of Crni Vrh and Planinci and partially the area of Kamenica.
19 All brigade forces are fully engaged and we have no reserves."
20 You've spoken about that so I won't ask you again. Then we get
21 to this paragraph, the next one:
22 "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners
23 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area, as well as
24 obligations of security and restoration of the terrain."
25 Now, General, can you explain to us when you say, "An additional
1 burden for us is the large number of prisoners distributed throughout the
2 schools in the brigade area," what did you mean? What was the additional
3 burden that those prisoners in those schools placed you in? Placed on
4 you, excuse me.
5 A. Well, I've already explained that in my examination-in-chief
6 when Mr. Grujic relayed this information to me that there were prisoners
7 located in schools and I assessed this in the same manner in which he
8 told me, that people living there were quite concerned and that this
9 could have a direct impact on the situation in the frontline. So I
10 didn't say that I had duties and tasks with regard to treatment of those
11 people, but that in and by itself, it creates an additional burden.
12 Q. So the burden is the concern that the local population would feel
13 having these people in their and around their towns?
14 A. That too, but also their contacts with the soldiers on the
16 Q. That's it. That's the only burden you are talking about?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Were you aware that civilians had contacted soldiers on the
19 frontline about this when you wrote it?
20 A. No, I did not receive any such information at that time.
21 Q. So that was just a mere possibility?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Nothing else?
24 A. Nothing else.
25 Q. Now, then you go on to say:
1 "As well as obligations of security and restoration of the
2 terrain." Meaning "asanacija terena," restoration of the terrain. What
3 did you mean by "asanacija terena"?
4 A. But the word that proceeds it, security, it does not correspond
5 to the word "obezbedjenje" in Serbian; we spoke about that at length.
6 And we also explained at length the meaning of the term "asanacija" based
7 on the rules of service from 1981. The "asanacija," sanitization of the
8 frontline, those were the duties that I had in front of me and were
9 underway to an extent because those combat activities were not -- had not
10 been planned in advance, and that's a prerequisite for the sanitization
11 of the terrain to be envisaged in those plans, to be made part of the
13 Q. In your direct, General, you said that when you defined the term,
14 you went to the definition that said the first thing that would be done
15 would be go out and find and take care of wounded. Is that what you are
16 talking about?
17 A. Yes, among other things because it was under way.
18 Q. So going out and finding and taking care of the wounded was an
19 additional burden, as stated in this paragraph?
20 A. Yes, because I have to detach a part -- elements of the forces to
21 take care of that, and evacuated the wounded in the course of combat is
22 not an easy task.
23 Q. So besides going out and evacuating the wounded, what else did
24 you mean by this reference to "asanacija terena," what specifically? And
25 as we recall, there is no battle going on now. You are even thinking
1 about opening a corridor the next day. You've said you had decided you
2 were going to. So what else, if anything, when you say "asanacija
3 terena" are you trying to communicate here to General Krstic?
4 A. The term "asanacija terena" also encompasses gathering up the
5 casualties, those who were killed and we did have some people killed.
6 There was an ambush at Crni Vrh. And when we are talking about
7 obligations here, it doesn't mean that "asanacija" would be carried out
8 that very moment but that was an obligation that I was to also carry out
9 the next day, and that's what happened.
10 Q. General, I'm not asking you about the definition. We have two
11 definitions. I'm asking you what specifically did you have in mind
12 besides going out and evacuating wounded, in this context? We know the
14 A. Well, I can't go beyond the definition. I'm a soldier, I know
15 what the "asanacija bojista," sanitization of the battle-field means. I
16 took it to mean the evacuation of the wounded and the removal of the dead
17 bodies of those who had been killed and nothing else. And you should
18 look at it in the context of securing the terrain.
19 Q. Yes, we recall your explanation on that. My question is, though,
20 how can that be an additional burden when you've already explained that
21 in the previous paragraph?
22 A. Well, in the previous passage, I describe the combat situation,
23 the tactical situation in the field on the 15th and until the time when
24 this report was filed.
25 Q. You were aware at the time that you wrote this that there were
1 thousands of prisoners still alive in both the Rocevic School
2 Branjevo farm and the cultural centre at Pilica, and you know that
3 Zvornik Brigade soldiers were involved in securing them in Pilica, you've
4 heard that evidence. I don't want to go over it. Many soldiers, 20,
5 30 soldiers at least in the Zvornik Brigade 1st Battalion, and soldiers
6 in Rocevic as well. You also know when you wrote this that thousands of
7 Muslims had been buried at Orahovac in the 14th and were in the process
8 of being buried on the 15th, which is also, you'll agree with me, part of
9 the definition of "asanacija," and that with thousands more people to be
10 killed, that burden would be ever increasing.
11 General, there's only one reasonable way to interpret this
12 cryptic, I acknowledge cryptic, comment to General Krstic, your
13 obligations of security are guarding the prisoners and your obligations
14 of "asanacija" are burying them. That's right, isn't it?
15 A. That's not right, Mr. McCloskey. You synthesized the events
16 here, the events that I was aware of at the time, and the events that I
17 learned at a later stage or even in the course of this trial. Now, you
18 are trying to put those words into my mouth, and these are big words. If
19 I try to swallow them, I even if I succeed, then I -- my stomach will not
20 be able to deal with them.
21 I wrote things that I meant. I did not have any information at
22 my disposal that anyone was killed at the time or that there were
23 preparations underway to kill anyone and you told me yesterday that by
24 the 15th in the morning, the burial was already done in Petkovci and in
25 Orahovac, so there was no obligation for "asanacija" in this meaning of
1 the term. However, "asanacija" does not involve any of the kind. It is
2 not a crime. It is a necessary legal act that has to be carried out. I
3 remember the footage shown to Mr. Trivic by Mr. Thayer, asking him
4 whether this was "asanacija" and he said it wasn't and I agree with him.
5 Q. When you mention "asanacija," if all you were talking about is
6 evacuating wounded and finding dead Serbs, why do you tell -- why did you
7 tell Eileen Gilleece or use the killing of pigs in December of 1992 as an
8 example of "asanacija"?
9 A. Well, "asanacija" refers both to the "asanacija," clear-up of the
10 battle-field and of the field in general, the terrain that is outside of
11 the battle-field and it can be carried out both by army units and by
12 civilian protection units. I tried to give her a very illustrative
13 example of what "asanacija" might mean.
14 You remember what Mr. Butler said in his testimony when this was
15 discussed, that this report was interpreted by some members of your team
16 as being exculpatory for me, and then, then there was a volte-face and
17 that became the key piece of incriminating evidence against me. I would
18 not now like to quote Cardinal Richelieu who said, Give me one sentence
19 and I will hang the man, because this is what it is.
20 Q. Didn't answer my question, General. Why, if "asanacija" -- why
21 if you are not burying anybody on the 15th, you're evacuating wounded and
22 finding dead, why are you talking about burying pigs when you're
23 referring to the 15th July in a report to Eileen Gilleece which you have
24 acknowledged you have? Isn't it true, General, that you have changed
25 your defence since speaking to Eileen Gilleece?
1 A. No, Mr. McCloskey, I answered your previous question. You might
2 not be happy with the answer but I did say why I mentioned pigs. Please
3 read my answer and you will see it is an answer to your question, and I
4 did not change my testimony.
5 Q. You didn't let those prisoners go, did you? Even though you
6 threatened it?
7 A. Well, how did I threaten them?
8 Q. It's a translation issue.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can reword that.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe you could repeat it, please, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. General, it's the Prosecution's position that when you said, "If
14 someone doesn't take care of this problem, I will be forced to let them
15 go," you were threatening your command that you were going to let the
16 prisoners go because you had better things to do than deal with a huge
17 crime like this, and yes, General, that's exculpatory; and had you let
18 them go, General, when you got back, we wouldn't be sitting here, I don't
19 think. So that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about
20 exculpatory. But you didn't let those prisoners at the school go, did
21 you? I'm happy you thought about it.
22 A. Mr. McCloskey, if you had interpreted this correctly, perhaps I
23 wouldn't be sitting here and many other things would not have happened.
24 This is not the end of the report. It says here I will be forced to let
25 them go, full stop and then signature. You want to put it to me that I
1 am referring to the prisoners of war. But please read the next passage
2 which is directly linked with the previous one. It says, The commander
3 from the opposite side, Semso Muminovic, in other words, has been offered
4 to separate the civilians and for the rest to surrender, and this was
5 rejected because they wanted us to let all of them go, and this is the
6 reference to the 28th Division.
7 How could I separate the civilians from the soldiers and then to
8 have the soldiers surrender? Those who were -- who surrendered and then
9 were taken prisoner cannot be taken prisoner again and then separated
10 again. So this is a clear context. We're talking about the column of
11 the 28th Division being let through, not the prisoners of war. And at
12 that time I was not aware of their fate and I did not make any decisions
13 regarding their fate, and this is the only way in which you can interpret
14 this. And if we add the 16th of July report that follows up on this
15 about them being let through, well, then there can be no doubt.
16 Q. General, we can all see that there's a new paragraph and that
17 you've switched subjects, you are not talking about the prisoners
18 anymore, you were talking about the column. So I don't wish to argue
19 with you about it.
20 Tell me, what your professional relationship with General
22 A. We never had a professional relationship. While I was an active
23 duty serviceman in the JNA, I was in Slovenia, he was in Belgrade
24 afterwards he retired and I did not have any official relationship with
25 him. You mean, Radinovic, I heard the interpreter say Radenovic.
1 Q. Tell us who General Radinovic is, the expert for General Krstic
2 at his trial?
3 A. He was an expert in the Krstic case, yes.
4 Q. And who is he?
5 A. He is a retired general, a professor. He used to be the chief of
6 the so-called Centre for Strategic Studies and Research in the Yugoslavia
7 People's Army. He was an expert for defence systems. That's as far as I
8 know. I read some of his books and that's it.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I need to clarify this in my mind. So when
10 previously you referred to the officer who was in Belgrade when you were
11 in Slovenia
12 someone with a different although similar name?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the same person, Your Honour,
14 it's General Radinovic.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. And in one of your books that -- on a military topic, we see that
17 he was involved in some way in editing it or something. Can you explain
18 what that was?
19 A. I don't know what books you are referring to. The book, "Basics
20 of the defence system of Republika Srpska," he may have been an expert
21 reviewer. There was another man who also peer reviewed a book.
22 Q. The book I'm talking about is called, "National interests as a
23 basis of military doctrine."
24 A. "National interests as the origin of military doctrine," I think
25 that was the title. I am not sure whether he peer reviewed that book. I
1 think that it was actually reviewed by another professor, Stisovic, we
2 can perhaps look at the impressum because it should be there.
3 Q. Well, we will. It should be coming. In any event, in your
4 direct testimony in talking about this 15 July interim report, you said
5 on page 31009, in a response to Mr. Haynes on the previous page where he
7 "Q. Were you referring in that report to guarding and burying
8 prisoners of war?
9 "A. This passage may be interpreted from the linguistic point of
10 view but it would take other kinds of experts to do that. I can only
11 interpret it from the aspects of the essence of the matter that is
12 contained here. This had nothing to do with guarding prisoners or
13 burying their bodies. It cannot even be suggested by the words that were
14 used in this document."
15 Now, in response to that last comment, that it cannot even be
16 suggested, let me read you some of the words of General Radinovic who
17 testified for the Krstic Defence about this report. And he says on
18 6 December 2000
19 "In this part of the report, we see several facts which are
20 extremely important. Vital for this trial. The commander of the Zvornik
21 Brigade knows, therefore, that in his zone of responsibility there are
22 prisoners of war. That is the first fact that we see from this report.
23 "The second fact is that he says that this is using up the
24 brigade's resources, which he is lacking in anyway, for the defence, for
25 the defence of his zone of responsibility. And he mentions the
1 expenditure of resources in order to secure the prisoners, and with the
2 sense of clearing up the terrain so these are the obligations. And he
3 says that he cannot take care of this burden, this additional burden any
4 longer and take care about those problems.
5 "For me, the report means that he is well aware of the fact that
6 the prisoners are in his area of responsibility, that up until that time
7 he has provided security for them, that his men are doing that, but that
8 they can no longer be responsible for that. So that leads us to conclude
9 that the commander does know about the prisoners but that quite
10 certainly, the commander does not know that already at the time,
11 according to the data and information that I learned about by reading the
12 documents for his testimony -- for this testimony of mine, that already
13 at that time the prisoners had already been liquidated in his zone of
15 So it is quite certain that he does not know about that because
16 had he known about it, he would have known that he was responsible for
17 that and that fact would not have been disclosed. It would have been
18 hidden because in this way he steps into the chain of responsibility."
19 He goes on on one final statement, 12 December, page 8404:
20 "When the brigade commander returned from Zepa to the area of
21 responsibility, he was told that the prisoners of war were in his area of
22 responsibility, and he was asking why they weren't where they should have
23 been pursuant to the order. And that they were using up resources that
24 he needed for the front. That's why he launched this appeal that he
25 couldn't be in charge of the responsibilities, that somebody else had to
1 look after them which meant the Superior Command, and that if they did
2 not take them over, he would be forced to let them go. So this is an
3 appeal to the Superior Command to take over the prisoners of war. To our
4 great misfortune and our shame, we know how they dealt with them."
5 So it's the position of the Prosecution that General Radinovic
6 had a good part of this absolutely correct. We don't agree that you
7 didn't know about the killings, but the rest of this we agree with. It's
8 the logical and appropriate evaluation, isn't it, General?
9 A. No, it is not. It's a lengthy passage that you read out to me,
10 but let me try and answer to the best of my understanding. First of all,
11 Mr. Radinovic interpreted just one passage from the report which contains
12 seven or eight paragraphs. And this misled him, bringing him to a
13 situation where he is drawing erroneous conclusions.
14 Secondly, he is contradictory in his conclusions. At the
15 beginning he says that I was aware of the obligation to guard and bury
16 those people, and then he goes on to say in the second part that I didn't
17 know that they had already been killed, and that this was not my concern.
18 Now, if you read this report in its entirety, and when you reach
19 the paragraph where he says this command can no longer take care of these
20 problems, the reference is to all the problems that are listed in the
21 previous paragraphs of that report. And we cannot now behave like a
22 herbalist who goes out into the meadow and then picks only the healing --
23 the ones that heal, and rejects all the others as noxious. You take
24 Mr. Radinovic's report where it is to my detriment and you reject it
25 where it is to my benefit. So I cannot take this interpretation that
1 you've just presented to me as being correct.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
3 MR. HAYNES: I'd like to pick up on that. I think this is a
4 witness caught in the Defence of General Krstic and I think it's only
5 fair that the Prosecution state their position as to his evidence.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you've made that point and it will go on
7 record. Do you wish to comment on that?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I thought I did. That I agreed with part of it
9 and I disagreed with the other part.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And let me, on behalf of the
11 Trial Chamber, make one thing clear. It's what was put to the witness by
12 Mr. McCloskey and particularly the witness's answer that is the testimony
13 here. What Mr. Radinovic may have said in the Krstic trial is not in
14 evidence in this case. Do you agree to that?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely, Mr. President. I do not intend to
16 offer this statement.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, that's what I wanted you to
18 confirm, that you are not offering Mr. Radinovic's statement in the
19 Krstic trial as evidence in this case.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I am not. And there's only one reason I
21 brought that in, it's for the credibility, and the only reason I did is
22 because he said, I can't -- it cannot even be suggested by the words that
23 were used in this document.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Right. The important thing is that we are
25 fine-tuned together on this.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Now, you had a chance to listen to the complete audio of
3 General Radinovic; isn't that correct, General?
4 A. I received a DVD
5 to listen to it but it was a long time ago, so I don't really recall all
6 the details. But you now have a unique chance. You have the author of
7 this report here in front of you and nobody can give you a better
8 interpretation of this report than I.
9 First of all, it's written in my mother tongue which I understand
10 so well, I know what I meant. I know what was happening in the field,
11 and this is the best person to talk to about this. I am the best person
12 you have.
13 Q. Well, you said that it couldn't be interpreted any other way,
14 let's see how General Krstic interpreted it, the person that it was sent
15 to. And I'll take you to General Krstic's testimony, cross-examined by
16 me, page 6738. And of course the same understanding for General Krstic
17 as for General Radinovic.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
19 MR. HAYNES: I just wonder what the question is going to be at
20 the end of it. I mean, isn't this asked and answered now. It's all very
21 well reading great chunks of other people's evidence into the testimony,
22 but if the question is the same, the question is the same.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I stand to be corrected, of course, but I think
24 Mr. McCloskey is trying to push his case one step further that your
25 client is not telling the truth, on this point at least. So let's hear
1 what the question is.
2 MR. HAYNES: He has already suggested that about four times.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe he is trying to prove it now.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: The point is, if General Pandurevic says it can't
5 be interpreted any other way and I have General Krstic interpreting it
6 another way I think it's fair game to ask him about that.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
9 Q. Page 6738, he is being asked questions by me:
10 "Q. So what does Vinko Pandurevic mean when he says, 'the burden
11 for us'? Is he speaking of the Zvornik Brigade?
12 "A. I think he is speaking about the prisoners whom someone
13 brought to the area of responsibility of his brigade.
14 "Q. I'm asking you what the meaning of 'us' is?
15 "A. The Zvornik Brigade probably.
16 "Q. And if the Zvornik Brigade's obligations of security were
17 the obligations imposed on them by Colonel Beara, what would those
18 obligations have been?
19 "A. Probably security. Security of the facilities and features
20 where the prisoners were."
21 Then going down a few more passages:
22 "Q. This command cannot take care of these problems any longer.
23 Now, these problems, these are problems of obligations of security and
24 restoration of the terrain, are they not?
25 "A. He is probably thinking of the security issue.
1 "Q. The one we just spoke of regarding the responsibilities
2 imposed upon him by Ljubo Beara, pursuant to orders from General Mladic?
3 I'm sorry. I interrupted you. What was your answer? You said yes?
4 "A. I didn't answer the question.
5 "Q. Okay. Well, let me try to clear it up. So the problems
6 that Vinko Pandurevic cannot take care of any longer are the obligations
7 of security; is that right?
8 "A. He is probably thinking of that."
9 Goes on:
10 "Q. General, what materials are needed for executions in the
11 context like Orahovac when you have those sorts of numbers?
12 "A. I don't know what materials are needed. That is something
13 that the person that did that, executed that, knew, and it wasn't
14 Vinko Pandurevic, and I'm quite sure that he wasn't thinking of those
15 materials. If he was thinking of anything, he was probably thinking of
16 food for his brigade and for the prisoners of war. He does not speak
17 here at all about executions of any kind.
18 "Q. 'If no one takes on this responsibility, I will be forced to
19 let them go.' Who is he referring to, letting who go?
20 "A. Probably the prisoners of war.
21 "Q. Located in the schools distributed throughout his area?
22 "A. That is what he said, in the schools.
23 "Q. So are you saying that the burden that he is concerned with
24 is the care and feeding of those prisoners, if someone doesn't take care
25 of the feeding of those prisoners, he's going to have to let them go?
1 "A. Precisely so."
2 So we have the person that received this and given he is on trial
3 and having to answer questions from me, but you see what is he is saying,
4 yes, Vinko is not guilty of anything involved in the murder operation,
5 but he knows about the prisoners in the school and that's the burden.
6 What is your comment to that?
7 A. As far as I know, you didn't believe a word General Krstic said
8 in his testimony. And if your intention is now to use one lie to prove
9 another lie, I just don't understand it. General Krstic concludes here
10 that there are prisoners held in schools. It's written clearly and it's
11 a no-brainer. If you had given this report to a person who was unaware
12 of the context of events, that person would never interpret the report
13 like that.
14 General Krstic is talking based on his knowledge as to what was
15 going on with these people, and I don't have that knowledge, so based on
16 your questions which take the facts of this report out of context,
17 General Krstic is giving his answers because he is led to believe that
18 this is a reference to prisoners of war. He is not shown this next
19 paragraph where I say I offered the enemy commander to separate civilians
20 and he insists that everyone be let go. So this context shows clearly
21 I'm not talking about prisoners of war. How would I be letting them go
22 if somebody brought them from the Drina Corps or the Main Staff and they
23 are guarding them?
24 Q. You will agree that the Zvornik Brigade were guarding prisoners
25 in Pilica on 14, 15, 16 July?
1 A. Well, we established here during the trial that much. I didn't
2 know that at the time, nor did Dragan Obrenovic. And you know how they
3 treated those prisoner, they brought them water and bread.
4 Q. If we could just clear up the Radinovic issue, General, let me
5 just hand you that book and we may have something in e-court that -- no,
6 we don't, but if you can just -- is that the book we are talking about or
7 a photocopy of it?
8 A. I talked about this book and you talked about another book. And
9 I was right, he reviewed this book, not the one you mentioned.
10 Q. And how do we know that he reviewed that book?
11 A. It says so in the credits.
12 Q. All right. And what is the name of that book so we can clear
13 that up?
14 A. "Foundations of the Defence Doctrine of Republika Srpska."
15 Q. And that was your choice to have him review your book, I take it?
16 A. The publisher of this book was the institute for geopolitical
17 studies and one of their associates was Professor Radinovic. It was the
18 publisher's idea to let him review the book because he was their
20 Q. The author would have a say in that as well, though, wouldn't
21 they, wouldn't you, General?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. You did approve General Radinovic reviewing your book?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let's go to the briefly, to the
1 Eileen Gilleece report. You've talked a bit about that already.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if you could go to B/C/S page 4. Sorry,
3 7D 1154. Page 4 in the English, and page 4 in the B/C/S.
4 Q. And this is where Ms. Gilleece writes down that you told rumours
5 were rampant among Pandurevic's troops. It was also being said that
6 Naser Oric was headed towards Pandurevic's position. That rumour created
7 a huge panic amongst Pandurevic's troops. Men were very afraid of
8 Naser Oric. At the time, Oric was some type of legend of unbelievable
9 capabilities. It was hard to keep the men focused since the rumour of
10 Naser Oric coming paralyzed many with fear. The point of the conflict
11 was Selo Baljkovica. Pandurevic arrived there and the conflict
13 Now, when Mr. Haynes asked you about that in a nice short
15 "What about the forces of Naser Oric coming towards Srebrenica?"
16 He is referring to the Gilleece report. And your answer is on page
18 "A. Well, I don't know where that note came from. There was no
19 movement towards Srebrenica of the Muslim forces.
20 "Q. Did you say anything like that?
21 "A. "Well, I don't know how I could say anything like that if
22 there was no information of that kind then, and we've established
23 throughout this trial that none of that happened. It wasn't like that."
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, the first document I'd like to go to to ask
25 you some questions about that is 65 ter number 201.
1 Q. And we see as this comes up that this is from the Drina Corps
2 command, dated 15 July, looks like it's in the morning, about 0800 hours.
3 We know you are probably in Krivace about then, or you are Krivace at
4 that time or the area of Krivace. And can you tell us what this
5 Drina Corps command 4th Radio Reconnaissance Platoon is?
6 A. That's what the reconnaissance platoon did, the platoon that
7 intercepted and jammed enemy communications.
8 Q. Okay. Well, you can see that they are reporting that:
9 "At 0630 hours, Naser Oric together with Doktor and part of the
10 Turkish forces who have set from the Tuzla area to run the blockade of
11 the Srebrenica Turks, reported from the village of Krizevici
12 between Karakaj and Crni Vrh. This is apparently only part of the forces
13 who are on their way to meet with the Srebrenica people. According to
14 our estimate, the main body of the Srebrenica Muslim troop is situated in
15 the region of Velja Glava (Gornja Kamenica)."
16 So this resembles the summary that Eileen Gilleece said she got
17 from you, doesn't it?
18 A. No, I said that these were false Muslim communications.
19 Naser Oric had not moved. He was somewhere in the Kalesija and Tuzla
20 area. They simply took radio stations and talked to each other,
21 pretending they had made an advance far behind Serb lines. Whereas in
22 fact there had been no movements on their side.
23 Q. Well, in response to Mr. Haynes' question about that very
24 paragraph identifying all the information about Naser Oric and your
25 troops panicking about it, we've heard what you said:
1 "Well, I don't know how I could say anything like that. There
2 was no communication of that kind then and we've established throughout
3 this trial none of that happened. It wasn't like that."
4 So do you wish to take that back and now acknowledge that you did
5 tell Eileen Gilleece at least part of what is in here?
6 A. I'm not taking anything back. Quite simply there was no actual
7 movement. This was deception playing on the situation. That's what I
8 meant when I was answering Mr. Haynes.
9 As for Naser Oric, I didn't fall for the way Mrs. Gilleece
10 represented him. I did not really admire the enemy in that way. She did
11 some research and made inquiries and maybe heard something from other
12 witnesses and based what she wrote on their evidence.
13 Q. So when she says: "Rumours were rampant among Pandurevic's
14 troops. And it was also being said that Naser Oric was heading towards
15 Pandurevic's position." So you did tell her that it was also being said
16 that Naser Oric was heading towards Pandurevic's position? You told her
17 that, I take it?
18 A. Well, I probably said there had been rumours and stories but
19 there was no actual movement. Those are two different things.
20 Q. General, did you or did you not tell Eileen Gilleece that it was
21 being said that Naser Oric was headed towards Pandurevic's position?
22 A. I was probably talking about the fact that these games were being
23 played on radio communications making believe that Naser Oric had started
24 to move towards our positions. I didn't say he actually moved.
25 Q. So you did talk to her about Naser Oric and him coming in to the
1 situation here?
2 A. He was mentioned in the context that I explained. He was not
3 involved in the situation on the ground.
4 Q. General, from your direct testimony, it's clearly communicated
5 that you believe Gilleece made that up? At least that's a fair
6 interpretation. You may clarify that if you'd like. So having read what
7 Ms. Gilleece said, are you now acknowledging that those subjects that
8 she's talking about are subjects you talked to her about. I can read it
10 "That rumour created a huge panic among Pandurevic's troops."
11 Did you talk to her about that?
12 A. You can read to me the answer I gave Mr. Haynes to this question.
13 Q. "Q. What about the forces of Naser Oric coming towards
15 "A. Well I don't know where that note came from. There was no
16 movement towards Srebrenica of the Muslim forces.
17 "Q. Did you say anything like that?
18 "A. Well, I don't know how I could say anything like that. If
19 there was no information on that kind then, and we've established
20 throughout this trial that none of that happened. It wasn't like that."
21 You said there's no information about Naser Oric.
22 MR. HAYNES: And the words you put earlier was "communication"
23 which was completely misleading.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: He can go on making obstructive and derogatory
25 objections but I don't think it's getting him anywhere.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's continue or have the break now. It's --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's break time.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. 25 minutes.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed, Mr. McCloskey. I had interrupted
7 you, rather, Mr. Haynes had, but then I said let's have the break now.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We are back on track.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: So you are authorised to go back to where you were,
10 and continue, proceed from there.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. All right. General, let's see if we can help resolve this issue
13 about how accurate Eileen Gilleece may have been.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's to 65 ter 1173D.
15 Q. And of course we are on the topic of whether or not she was
16 correct when she was telling you that -- or that you were telling her
17 that, "It was also being said that Oric was headed towards Pandurevic's
18 position," there was rumours and panic among your troops, that kind of
19 thing. And we can see from this intercept, which I think you've talked
20 about this before and you've acknowledged you are in this, that your men
21 are telling you on the morning of 15th, when you are at Krivace --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay now? Okay. Thank you. What was the
23 problem exactly, Mr. Borovcanin?
24 THE ACCUSED BOROVCANIN: [Interpretation] We were not receiving
25 any interpretation. The interpretation actually began just now.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you have a right to have the interpretation
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can say --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could repeat, briefly, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. General, just to remind everybody where we were, we were
7 discussing the comments that Eileen Gilleece said that you had told her
8 in her note where she says that you had told her that there was rumours
9 about Naser Oric coming in and that your troops were panicking, that
10 section of her report, and you recall what you said to Mr. Haynes.
11 Now, if we could look at this intercept on the issue of whether
12 or not you said anything to Ms. Gilleece on this issue. We see from this
13 intercept that you've already acknowledged, I believe, between your unit
14 and Zvornik, I can't tell if it's Mijatovic or Milosevic you are talking
15 to, but they tell you after you say:
16 "This morning and when was the dawn? Now, give me an overview,
18 "Well, it's the same, same situation. Only the latest piece of
19 information says that Naser came in from Krizevici with a group and is
20 now heading to meet the ones coming from Srebrenica. That is the latest
21 piece of information. It is 10 minutes old."
22 Now, sir, my question is not whether or not this was
23 misinformation and silliness sent over the airways to trick you by the
24 Muslims. My question is, you had this information about Naser Oric and
25 you told it to Eileen Gilleece as she para-phrased it in her brief
1 report; correct?
2 A. I spoke about the rumours that existed that Naser Oric was in
3 Krizevici. At the time of this conversation I was not sure whether he
4 was in Krizevici or not, but by the time I reached Zvornik I knew for a
5 fact that he wasn't and that there hadn't been any movements on his part.
6 This is what I was telling Ms. Gilleece, that there were rumours and
7 those attempts to throw a spanner in our works. But in my answer to what
8 Mr. Haynes asked me, I said that there were no movements of the Muslim
9 forces towards Srebrenica, and that is true. And with all due respect to
10 the lady who was interpreting at the time, it all looked like that movie,
11 "Lost in Translation."
12 Q. So now you are acknowledging that the information regarding Oric
13 heading towards your position and that the rumours creating a panic is
14 actually correct?
15 A. I'm not acknowledging anything, I'm not denying anything, I'm
16 merely confirming what I said earlier. I said did say that there were
17 those attempts to launch those ruses stating that Naser Oric was moving
18 his troops, but there were no movements by his troops.
19 Q. Did you tell her that the rumour had created a huge panic among
20 your troops?
21 A. No, I didn't speak about any panic or fear that this engendered.
22 If you look at this intercept you can see I'm asking for a report from
23 the 4th, 6th and 7th Battalions because this piece of information that
24 was relayed to me by someone probably was obtained from this
25 reconnaissance platoon. It didn't come from the field. I did not get
1 panicky or make any panic in those conversations.
2 Q. It's not talking about you General, it's talking about your
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 200. It's a very short --
5 another report from the Drina Corps intercept group, dated 15 July.
6 Q. And as we can see similar to the last one:
7 "The Turks are led by Oric came across our troops in the area of
8 Planinica and Crni Vrh. Naser is bragging about having crushed our
9 forces in the area and is moving on in order to cause havoc. We estimate
10 the situation to be very serious. Not excluding the possibility of an
11 attack on Zvornik."
12 Now, this is coming to the IKM, attention to the commander. Now,
13 you are not there yet, as we acknowledge, but the intercept guys are
14 taking this seriously. They are mentioning about causing -- Oric is
15 coming to cause havoc and they're saying it's even a possibility of an
16 attack on Zvornik. This would have to be something that, if communicated
17 to the command and the troops, may very well cause the kind of panic that
18 Ms. Gilleece is talking about that you told her; correct?
19 A. Well, look at the time-line of events here. This is the 15th of
20 July, 805. The commander of the radio reconnaissance platoon submits a
21 report to the addressees who are listed here. This report is not given
22 to Dragan Obrenovic who was in Crni Vrh sector on the 15th, and he knew
23 that there was no Naser Oric there. The soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade
24 knew that Naser Oric was not there. And there is no panic in their ranks
25 because of that knowledge.
1 Krstic, at the forward command post, receives this report. The
2 commander of the radio reconnaissance platoon cannot make a proper
3 assessment of any possible consequences of any such action on the part of
4 the enemy. This is the job of the commander, and in light of this
5 situation or this information Krstic was in a dilemma. He didn't want to
6 really -- he was not sure whether he should authorise my return there,
7 but you can see that none of the superior officers actually says anything
8 about any panic among the soldiers.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 170.
10 Q. Another easy one-page report from this time Colonel
11 Predrag Jocic. Can you remind us who that is?
12 A. He is an officer from the operations organ of the Drina Corps.
13 Q. And as you can see this is dated 15 July at about 0950 hours,
14 entitled, "Very urgent information on the Muslim formations." And he
16 "On the basis of information gathered and electronic
17 reconnaissance," so that's two forms of information, electronic
18 reconnaissance and information gathered, "we have found out that
19 Naser Oric has broken through our position, reached Krizevici area and is
20 heading towards Planinci to join up with the group from Srebrenica and to
21 wreak havoc in Zvornik." Sounds like he has been referring to the
22 previous report. And it goes on and says:
23 "I have ordered all men to be mobilised in Zvornik and head to
24 the defence position. I suggest that Pandurevic and Legenda return to
25 their zones of responsibility and to take measures to repair the
1 consequences, if any, and to prevent a catastrophe. Semso Muminovic has
2 requested that Vinko Pandurevic contact him on the frequency. We think
3 that this concerns either surrendering or an attack. If Vinko is not
4 there, it means that Legenda is not there either."
5 You'll agree with me, Mr. Jocic is talking about a catastrophe,
6 he said he's ordered all men in Zvornik to be mobilised. How is it that
7 a colonel in the operations branch can issue an order like that?
8 A. Look, this piece of information reached the forward command post
9 of the Drina
10 the previous report which was drafted at 805. Krstic had received it
11 before Mr. Jocic had, two hours earlier, and he was well familiar with
12 all this, and Mr. Jocic now presents his own assessment and informs
13 Krstic about it, and Krstic had already made a decision that I should be
14 brought back. So this information did not really have an impact on the
16 Now, as he ordered that everybody in the Zvornik should be
17 mobilised, I don't know that, I don't know who authorised him to do that.
18 I'm not sure, or perhaps this is simply what he said to the operations
19 duty officer to do it. We saw in the work log that at one point
20 Mr. Galic, on the 15th, sent a request to the corps for the R Battalion
21 to be called, up to be mobilised.
22 Q. So did you speak to General Krstic at the time about this -- this
23 Oric issue?
24 A. We looked at all the reports, as far as I know, from the
25 reconnaissance, radio reconnaissance platoon. I talked to the officers
1 from the Zvornik Brigade and Mr. Krstic and I were not in any state of
2 panic, and we did not consider the situation to be as it had been painted
3 by the radio reconnaissance platoon.
4 Q. But you did discuss the issues of Oric coming in with Krstic at
5 the time?
6 A. I don't recall mentioning Mr. Oric, but I do remember that we
7 discussed the new tactical and combat situation in the area of
8 responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade, and it was my proposal that I
9 should also go back.
10 Q. All right. Give me one second. Now, staying with on the Eileen
11 Gilleece report just a little longer, I just want to read you back a
12 couple of your answers on this issue related to what you told her about
13 the pig farm. And Mr. Haynes asked you on page 31286, in quotes:
14 "'Pandurevic advised that Rick Butler refers to a handwritten
15 report dated 15 July 1992
16 4th Battalion, the soldiers of the Muslim 28th Division seized the
17 command post and killed pigs.' Did you say anything of the sort to
18 Eileen Gilleece?
19 "A. We did have the Butler report in front of us. I referred to
20 statements in that report and I did not say at all that the pig farm is
21 mentioned in the Butler
22 in connection with the next paragraph as an example how to explain the
23 term 'asanacija.'
24 "Q. Why were you giving the example of 'asanacija'?
25 "A. I was saying that 'asanacija' is everything it really is in
1 military terms and then I remember that there really had been pigs there
2 and to illustrate the point I said that 'asanacija,' or sanitization of
3 the terrain, included removing carcasses and corpses if any were found on
4 the ground.
5 "Q. But were you seeking to explain the report of 15 July 1995?
6 "A. I think I commented on Mr. Butler's conclusion that I felt
7 were erroneous. I felt that then and I still do now.
8 "Q. But were you saying that the use of the word 'asanacija' is
9 in the report of the 15th July, 1995, referred to an obligation to clear
10 away pig carcasses?
11 "A. No, I didn't say that that was an obligation. I simply gave
12 that as an example to illustrate what the term 'asanacija' means."
13 Now, I think you have said that to me as well. So you stand by
14 that; is that correct? Those questions and answers?
15 A. Yes, I stand by the answers that you've just read to me.
16 Q. Okay. Then it goes on for a bit and Mr. Haynes at page 31288
18 "Q. The example you gave of pig carcasses having to be removed,
19 when did that occur within the war?
20 "A. Well, it's true here that we analysed the report of the
21 15th of July, 1995, which was mentioned in the Butler report but that
22 report makes no mention of pigs and the removal of their carcasses, but I
23 gave examples that it happened earlier on in 1992. I remember the
24 village of Jeremici at Snagovo which in 1992, in December, was looted and
25 set fire to and the pigs slaughtered, killed, and so I mentioned that
1 example. And I also spoke about 'asanacija' which had been conducted in
2 Gornje Kamenica and Snagovo areas in 1993."
3 So what was this thing in 1992 where pigs were killed and buried?
4 Do you stand by that? Did that really happen?
5 A. Well, it did happen and we carried out the asanation [as
6 interpreted] in 1992 and 1993 and that is why there is mention of 1992 in
7 this report. But this is all a bit mixed up and now it's being linked
8 with the 15th of July, 1995. But I tried to use this an example and this
9 is why it is written like that. And in the report of the 15th of July,
10 1995, the interim combat reports makes no mention of pig carcasses or
11 their removal and we've read it through.
12 Q. Are so were any pigs killed in July 1995?
13 A. Pigs did get killed because this battalion had a minifarm close
14 to the headquarters. Some were killed in the shelling and some pigs were
15 killed when the 28th Division troops passed by that area a little while
17 Q. Where did this happen?
18 A. In Baljkovica.
19 Q. In the 4th Battalion area?
20 A. 4th Battalion, that's right.
21 Q. And the Zvornik cleaned up those pigs and buried them?
22 A. Well, over the course of the following days they were removed and
23 buried, surely.
24 Q. And you are aware that in a proofing note we asked Obrenovic to
25 look at the Gilleece reference about burying pigs and he told us that
1 pigs were killed in the 4th Battalion but it was the 16th, not the 15th;
2 right? Do you remember seeing that proofing note?
3 A. I remember. And in my interim combat report of the 15th, there
4 is no mention of any pigs who had been killed by Obrenovic, and I cannot
5 really claim with any certainty that no pigs were killed on the 15th
6 because people were in shelters, in trenches and pigs were out in the
7 open so some of them may have been killed 15th and 16th.
8 Q. The pigs that were killed in Jeremici in 1992, what battalion was
9 that at the time?
10 A. Well, that was no battalion, no battalions were there. It
11 happened after the disbanding of the 6th Battalion that was defending
12 Kamenica after it was defeated and after Glodjansko Brdo fell, that area
13 was empty, the Serb villages were defenceless, and then the Muslim forces
14 entered the village of Jeremici
15 women, some pigs and looting the houses and taking the loot away with
17 Q. Okay. Let's go to Ms. Gilleece's report, 7D 1154.
18 MR. HAYNES: Just out of caution, do we not need to redact
19 reference to a proofing note? No. Okay.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have a problem with that?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No we can just go on.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. All right. You've got that in front of you, General. It's
25 page 5 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S. And this is where you
1 say, according to Eileen Gilleece:
2 "Pandurevic advised that Rick Butler refers to a handwritten
3 report dated the 15th of July, 1992, at 2000 hours. That report refers
4 to a pig farm near the 4th Battalion. The soldiers of the Muslim
5 28th Division seized the command post and killed pigs."
6 How does Eileen Gilleece know that the pig farm that you are
7 talking about is the 4th Battalion unless you told her?
8 A. Well, pigs were mentioned in both locations, but here it is
9 presented as if it was contained in my interim combat report of the 15th.
10 It wasn't. I can't now give you an explanation why some things were
11 noted down as they were.
12 Q. General, when you met with Eileen Gilleece, you told her, as you
13 acknowledged, that Rick Butler talked about your 15th interim, and you
14 disagreed with it. And you went on to tell her that "asanacija" in that
15 report had to do with pigs that were killed at the 4th Battalion. That's
16 what you did. And that's what is in here. Eileen Gilleece doesn't know
17 the 4th Battalion from Adam. She's never dealt with that case, as it
18 came out clearly. How does she know to say the 4th Battalion pigs unless
19 you said it to her just like this?
20 A. I mentioned pigs from the 4th Battalion by way of explanation of
21 what "asanacija" might refer to, and then she wrote down that this is
22 mentioned in the interim combat report. I know that she wrote this
23 report and we don't have any other trace apart from this report of hers,
24 whether it was in any way doctored or in any way changed or manipulated.
25 She didn't know about the 4th Battalion, but many other people did.
1 Q. You think Eileen Gilleece made up the 4th Battalion and just
2 threw it in there?
3 A. No, not her, Mr. McCloskey.
4 Q. Who?
5 A. Well, I'm saying that I mentioned the 4th Battalion.
6 Q. With the pigs?
7 A. I mentioned the pigs in that area as an example of what
8 "asanacija" means.
9 Q. You've got to pick your pigs, General. It's either the 1992 pigs
10 or the 4th Battalion 1995 pigs; it makes a very big difference. Which is
12 A. Both, Mr. McCloskey.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 2754.
15 Q. This is a document, dated 15 July, related to the 1st Krajina
16 Corps and it is related to a unit that General Miletic is ordering to go
17 assist you, your brigade on the 15th; right?
18 A. It says here, Dispatching a unit, an infantry company to assist
19 the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade report and it is signed by
20 General Miletic.
21 Q. I'm asking you now, General, to go back into your memory. Did
22 you get a unit from the Krajina Corps that was under your command from
23 the 16th?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And I apologise, but I need to go back to one other
1 point in the Gilleece report. 7D 1154. Page 4 in the B/C/S, General;
2 page 3 in the English. States:
3 "On the 15th of July, Pandurevic received information from the
4 Chief of Staff that a number of POWs were put in the Zvornik municipality
5 by the Supreme Command and the corps."
6 That's a very clear statement from Eileen Gilleece, wouldn't you
7 agree with me?
8 A. I wouldn't agree if that's her statement. I said to her that
9 Obrenovic had informed me on the 16th about all matters pertaining to
11 Q. So she has got her dates mixed up?
12 A. Probably. Unless someone corrected her.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to 65 ter number 377.
14 Q. This is just a short section of the duty officer notebook. I
15 don't intend to spend a lot of time in the notebook, General, so we can
16 get you the original if need be. It's from the 16th of July. It's
17 page 149 in the B/C/S and 149 in the English. We've seen this before,
18 I'm sure. And this is says:
19 "A message from Zlatar that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic must go to
20 Vinko Pandurevic in the field at 1640 hours. Message through the
21 1st Battalion that Popovic must report to the duty officer so he can be
22 sent on a task by Zlatar."
23 So why would they want to send a message through the
24 1st Battalion to find Popovic? Does that mean that they think that's
25 where he is at this time, up in the 1st Battalion somewhere?
1 A. The person who made this entry into the workbook probably knew
2 where Popovic was and how to reach him.
3 Q. And you'll agree that -- we've seen the evidence and we don't
4 need to go through all of it, but that clearly on the 16th, the corps and
5 the Main Staff wanted to know what was going on with the column, and they
6 eventually ended up asking for Popovic to go see you about that; correct?
7 A. Yes. Before that it was requested that a commanding officer from
8 the brigade should go, and after that Popovic.
9 Q. Why would they turn to Popovic?
10 A. Well, probably to verify the information. Maybe they didn't
11 believe the reports from the Zvornik Brigade.
12 MR McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 1225B; B/C/S 1225C.
13 Q. And I think we've seen this as well. This is a 16 July intercept
14 at 1643 hours. It seems that it could be related to the duty officer
15 notebook entry, but it notes that:
16 X says: "Is my Popovic with you there somewhere?"
17 Y: "No, he's not."
18 X says: "What about Drago Nikolic?"
19 A. Sorry, I think you gave me the wrong copy.
20 Q. Let's try the screen.
21 A. It's the same thing on the screen.
22 Q. Maybe the handwritten version is correct.
23 A. It's the same thing again.
24 Q. There's 1643 and it starts with "alo" and I see Popovic so I
25 think we've got the correct one on the screen now.
1 A. Yes, I see it now. Towards the bottom.
2 Q. Okay. And the part I was reading says:
3 "Is my Popovic with you there somewhere?
4 "No, he's not.
5 "What about Drago Nikolic.
6 "He is not either.
7 "Listen, the boss wants one of them to go to Vinko.
9 "To see what is going on there."
10 So they want either Popovic or Drago Nikolic, they --
11 specifically the security guys. Does that suggest to you they are
12 concerned you might be doing something you are not supposed to be doing?
13 A. It's possible to interpret it that way too.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 1201A.
15 Q. And to help you find that, General, it's the one that starts at
16 2116 hours. It's C in the B/C/S and it begins: "Hello,
17 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic speaking."
18 And this is much later that evening on the 16th of July,
19 2116 hours. I want to go over this with you a bit. We all recall that
20 you said you never saw Popovic at the forward command post on the 16th,
21 despite him being ordered to go see you.
22 And P says: "Hello Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic speaking.
23 "Rasic here. Can I help you?
24 "Rale, yes."
25 Rasic from the Drina Corps's nickname is Rale; right?
1 A. I didn't know a single Rasic from the Drina Corps. I knew a man
2 called Rakic. But a possible nickname for Rasic could be Rale.
3 Q. Okay. Then Rale says: "Yes."
4 And Popovic says: "I was just up there."
5 And Rasic says: "Yes."
6 And Popovic says: "I was with the boss personally."
7 Rasic says: "Yes."
8 Popovic says: "Here where I am, you know where I am?"
9 Rasic says: "I know."
10 "Well, you got this interim report."
11 What interim report do you think he is talking about on the
12 evening of 16 July?
13 A. It's possibly the interim combat report of the same day, the
14 16th of July.
15 Q. So when it says, Well, you got his interim report, he is
16 referring to Vinko Pandurevic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And so when we go up a few lines earlier when we see, "I was with
19 the boss personally," he was speaking of the boss of the Zvornik Brigade,
20 wasn't he?
21 A. Yes, probably.
22 Q. And so Popovic says: "Well, you got his interim report.
23 And then Rasic says: "All of it.
24 Popovic says: "It's all just like he wrote ... I was there on
25 the spot and saw for myself he had received some numbers ... well, that's
1 not even important ... I'll come there tomorrow so tell the General ...
2 I've finished the job."
3 When Popovic says it's just like he wrote, "he received some
4 numbers," the numbers in your 16 interim report were the numbers of your
5 casualty figures; correct?
6 A. Well, there are not many numbers. It said around 10 wounded
7 and -- around 10 killed and several wounded. That's probably what he
9 Q. "I'll come there tomorrow so tell the General. I've finished the
11 So it's now 16 July at 9.16 p.m. What job was Popovic doing that
12 day, besides being ordered to go see you at the forward command post at
14 A. He says here that they should inform the General that he had
15 finished the job, meaning the job given him by the General obviously.
16 Q. What was that job in your view? You were there in command at the
17 time and you've studied the record?
18 A. No. At that time I was at the forward command post in
19 Baljkovica, that is Delici, while Mr. Popovic was doing the job given him
20 by Krstic. Ordered to him by Krstic. He was in the area of Zvornik. I
21 can only suppose which particular duties he meant, but I have no direct
23 Q. Okay. "You finished?
24 "I've finished everything.
1 "I'll come there tomorrow when I'm sure that it's all been taken
2 care of, you know.
4 Popovic: "After I bring a transport from here.
6 Then he goes on to say:
7 "Well, in general, there weren't any major problems but up there,
8 there were horrible problems and that thing the commander sent, it was
9 just the right thing."
10 Rale says: "Good."
11 Popovic says: "Just the thing ... horrible ... it was horrible."
12 Now, you know the record well in this case and you know that the
13 first interpretation of this intercept was that the horrible thing that
14 happened was Branjevo farm and the murders there, but you now know that
15 Mr. Butler, as he has testified here, upon reviewing other intercepts, is
16 saying -- is interpreting this, as the Prosecution does, that the
17 horrible problems that Popovic is referring to, that you were having to
18 deal with, as you've mentioned in your 16th report, were the combat
19 problems with the 28th Division coming from your rear and the 2nd Corps
20 from the front, so that Popovic here is defending you to the corps, that
21 the problems that you had to face were horrible and that the thing that
22 was sent, the reinforcements to help you out with the combat situation
23 were just the right thing.
24 So you've got Vujadin Popovic in a situation where you know you
25 were in trouble for opening the corridor he is defending you. He is
1 saying it was horrible, basically it needed to be done, you sent the
2 commander reinforcements and that was the thing that solved it. Is that
3 the way you interpret it?
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
5 MR. HAYNES: That's a pretty substantial compound question. Can
6 it be broken down or there's going to be a very long answer following, I
8 JUDGE AGIUS: But I mean, we have been proceeding along those
9 lines. I think Mr. Pandurevic can handle it. If you prefer the question
10 to be broken down --
11 MR. HAYNES: No, I'm sure he can --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's see if he can answer the question,
13 however compound it may be, and it is to an extent, or whether you wish
14 the question to be broken down in several questions.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's a fair synopsis of the Butler
16 testimony and I think the General understands it, but he can tell us.
17 It's also a fair synopsis of the Prosecution's position.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Pandurevic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've already gotten
20 used to Mr. McCloskey's questions and these introductions do not
21 generally have to do much with the question that follows. But I can
22 answer. Mr. Popovic did not meet with me on the 16th. I did not report
23 to him about anything. It's possible that he had read the interim combat
24 report at the command and made his conclusions on that basis or maybe he
25 talked to somebody else, I don't know, but he didn't talk to me. The
1 problems up there were exactly as I described them in the
2 examination-in-chief and earlier during the cross-examination.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Meaning the horrible combat problems and the casualties; correct?
5 A. Well, I talked in my report exclusively about combat-related
6 problems in Baljkovica.
7 Q. So you agree with me, then?
8 A. From this intercept I see that Mr. Popovic is talking about
9 problems concerning Baljkovica and his source of information is unknown
10 to me. I agree with you to the extent that my interim combat report
11 reflects the problems in Baljkovica and those problems were real.
12 Q. And so when Popovic is talking to the corps command and says, "I
13 was there on the spot. I saw it for myself," he is confirming the
14 reality of the problems and defending you in your situation with the
15 corps, that must have -- don't you agree with me?
16 A. From what we read here we can draw that conclusion, if that's
17 only based on my combat report, otherwise he wasn't able to conclude
18 anything else. I don't know if he got any information from someone else.
19 As to whether he is defending me or not, maybe he was convinced that the
20 report was completely truthful and he was defending it and interpreting
21 it as such to the corps command.
22 Q. I suggest, General, that Colonel Popovic was with you at
23 Baljkovica. He saw the horrible casualties, and he agreed with you that
24 opening the corridor was the correct thing to do in that horrible
25 situation and he was passing that on to the corps, when he could have
1 said, oh, we open the corridor and let the Muslims through and ended your
2 career right there; right?
3 A. You see, he did not meet up with me in Baljkovica that evening.
4 This intercept is dated 2116 hours, the corridor had been opened before
5 1600 hours, and if he had been up there when it got dark, he would have
6 been unable to see anything. The 28th Division wasn't passing through
7 anymore. And you see this question about PV 168 when he said that
8 Popovic wasn't there, that things were horrible up there, and there
9 was -- it was a life risk. Now, I don't see what your suggestion is,
10 what you are trying to put to me.
11 Q. Let's go on. I think it was clear.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 1224A. B/C/S 1224C.
13 Q. This is 17 July. Between Popovic and Y, and Y was not audible.
14 And Popovic says:
15 "Hello, it's Popovic ... boss ... everything's okay. The job is
16 done ... everything's okay ... everything's been brought to an end, no
18 Who was Popovic's direct boss or commander?
19 A. General Krstic.
20 Q. He goes on and says:
21 "I'm here at the place ... I'm here at the place where I was
22 before, you know ... I'm at the base ... at the base, the base."
23 That should be the Zvornik Brigade, shouldn't it?
24 A. He says here, "where I was before," and his base was the
1 don't know. But since he talks about the location where he was before,
2 then Krstic must have known where he had been before. You can read it in
3 two different ways.
4 Q. And then it goes on:
5 "Can I just take a little break, take a little break, take a
6 shower and then I'll think again later ... basically, that all gets an
7 A ... an A... the grade is an A, everything's okay ... that's it, bye,
8 take care."
9 Now, let me show you Exhibit 65 ter number 3009. It may take
10 awhile to come out on the computer, but this is an aerial image of the
11 Branjevo farm, dated 17 July, and the computer is not the best version of
12 that. But on 17 July in the afternoon, you are the commander of the
13 Zvornik Brigade in the Zvornik Brigade zone of responsibility; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this job of where we see bodies scattered all over the
16 grounds and we see an excavator digging a big trench, piles of earth,
17 this is the job that Colonel Popovic was engaged in on the 17th of July,
18 isn't it, burying those bodies?
19 A. In that conversation he informs his boss, General Krstic, that he
20 had finished the job. The two of them know with one hundred per cent
21 certainty what job they were doing. If you link up these documents the
22 way you are doing that, then it could refer to this job.
23 Q. And who is the commander of the excavator driver? If he is a
24 Zvornik Brigade engineer, who is his commander?
25 A. For the engineer of the Zvornik Brigade, the first immediate
1 superior is Dragan Obrenovic, and then the next one in line am I.
2 Q. And the soldiers that were guarding the prisoners at the
3 Kula school, the Zvornik Brigade soldiers that we've heard about that
4 were guarding them there on the 16th of July as they were being bused off
5 to Branjevo, who -- you were their commander that day too, weren't you?
6 A. Yes, I am their commander, too. As far as I understood their
7 testimony, they were there by the schools, but I'm not sure they were by
8 the schools on the day of the execution. And one thing is certain, they
9 were not there on my orders or the orders of Dragan Obrenovic.
10 Q. General, it's the Prosecution's position that in order to commit
11 mass murder on this kind of scale, there's three essential ingredients:
12 Detention of those prisoners, transportation to the execution sites of
13 those prisoners, and execution of those prisoners. It's the
14 Prosecution's position that all three of them are essential and no one is
15 greater in importance than the other for those that are organising and
16 facilitating this. Do you agree? Or are the people that are shooting in
17 some way more guilty than the commanders of those that are guarding and
19 A. Yes, we have here two levels, one is a general level, and the
20 other is the level of specific things and facts. You listed all the
21 things that were needed for the process to take place, and in the second
22 part of your question you focused on one specific part of that process.
23 I agree it's necessary for these people to be taken prisoner by someone,
24 to bring them to the place of the execution, and to perform the
1 The transport was not handled by the Zvornik Brigade. The
2 transport of these people from the place of imprisonment to the place of
3 execution was not handled by the Zvornik Brigade. The execution was not
4 carried out by the Zvornik Brigade. Therefore, the people who were
5 there, and I don't know on whose orders, it's not crystal clear to me,
6 even for those who were indeed there, their commander cannot be
7 responsible and the commander is me.
8 Q. General, if you were informed by Dragan Obrenovic that on the
9 15th of July, when you first saw him, that it had become the
10 responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade to assist in the mass execution and
11 detention of thousands of prisoners, and that he had authorised the
12 brigade to take part in this, what would your duty have been upon
13 receiving that information from Dragan Obrenovic, which is what the
14 position of the Prosecution is?
15 A. Let's just clarify whether Dragan Obrenovic gave approval to the
16 Zvornik Brigade to take part in this --
17 Q. General, that's not the question. We've gone through this; we
18 don't need to continue to go through it. This is a hypothetical
19 question. We know your position on that; you know my position on it.
20 This is a hypothetical question and I don't want to go through that
22 MR. HAYNES: Well, if you ask a hypothetical question, you can
23 get a hypothetical answer, and he is entitled to theorize as much as he
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We fully agree with Mr. Haynes.
1 Mr. Pandurevic, if you can provide an answer, provide it the way you
2 think you can and then we see afterwards.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. This
4 question makes the assertion that Dragan Obrenovic make the approval for
5 the Zvornik Brigade to take part in the execution which is something that
6 from the evidence hereto in my vision of this evidence is not correct.
7 He agreed with five policemen and Drago Nikolic at a time when he didn't
8 know that executions would follow.
13 (redacted), and I would prevent their participation in that job. I would
14 find out who was doing that job and why and I would have informed my
16 You know that at the dome in Pilica people were killed inside in
17 the hall, whereas those at the school who were guarded, as the
18 Prosecution claims, by soldiers from the 1st Battalion, lived there for
19 one or two days. They had been given bread and water in those two days.
20 If it hadn't been for those guards, they would have been killed just as
21 those people at the dome.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. If you said nothing to Dragan Obrenovic after he informed you and
24 the murder operation continued with the assistance of the Zvornik Brigade
25 with your knowledge, would you bear any responsibility in your mind?
1 A. Had members of the Zvornik Brigade participated in those events
2 with my knowledge and approval, I would bear responsibility.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to 65 ter 686. I don't have
4 it in B/C/S in front of me, but it's a very brief statement in
5 Mr. Butler's report, one of his revised narratives that I know you've
6 read and studied.
7 Q. And it says:
8 "This is, however, one reference to prisoners in the custody of
9 the 7th Battalion" --
10 JUDGE KWON: Sorry, could you wait.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry. Page 86 in the English. Sorry, I don't
12 have the page in the B/C/S. But it's a very simple statement and we'll
13 get to the document that it's referring to.
14 Q. He says:
15 "In examining the vehicle log sheet for a TAM 2001 vehicle,
16 licence M5342, it notes that on both 16 and 17 July that a vehicle was
17 active in transport of prisoners between Stari Selo and Crni Vrh ," and
18 another illegible location.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Page 90 in the B/C/S, but what I really want you
20 to see and ask you about is 65 ter 295 which is that vehicle log that
21 Mr. Butler has cited.
22 Q. And as he said, and we can see from the log, this is a vehicle
23 log from the Zvornik Brigade for a TAM
24 operated by Milenko Majstorovic and Milenko Mitrovic. And it is -- I
25 take you to the 16th of July, it says: "500 through 2200." We go to the
1 section that says: "Transport of food, ammunition, prisoners, and
2 other." And the number of people there is 1 plus 10.
3 So this is a record of your unit, your brigade transporting
4 prisoners from Stari Selo, Crni Vrh or to Stari Selo Papraca, when you
5 were there present in command and I think we all know that these areas
6 Stari Selo and Crni Vrh were in the area where the column was. Can you
7 tell us about Papraca?
8 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Mr. McCloskey. I don't think we are
9 following in terms of evidence.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: The translation is 0069-4771 REV. It's page 3.
11 MR. HAYNES: Page 3 in P 295? There are 604 pages in P 295.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is a revised translation, so we had to give
13 it another number. The translation has a number but it's out of the
15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it on the screen now. I just want the
16 confirmation from you that it's the right one. I'm referring to the
17 English version.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Page 227 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. And so, General, if you've had a chance to take a look at this
20 and listen to my preface, do you agree with roughly what I said as I went
21 through the translation? Just trying to repeat what was on the document.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Stari Selo, Crni Vrh, Papraca, can you just roughly tell us
24 where those places are?
25 A. Crni Vrh, I think we all know where it is. It's on the
1 Zvornik-Tuzla road. It's about 20 kilometres away from Zvornik. Papraca
2 is on the same road but in the area of Caparde, you turn west into the
3 area of Sekovici.
4 Q. What do you know about this indication that prisoners were taken
5 and transported by this vehicle?
6 A. The first time I saw this was in the documents that you gave to
7 me for the cross-examination. Among the 604 documents, I did not come
8 across this document. Perhaps I just didn't notice it. I now see that
9 on the 16th, there was a transport of prisoners, ammunition, food, and so
10 on. The same thing goes for the 17th. So it's difficult to determine
11 where the points of origin were and what the destinations were, but it is
12 my assumption and it's a possible conclusion based on this that those
13 were some prisoners who had been captured either by the 7th Battalion
14 soldiers or people from the Osmace technical group which was part of the
15 Sekovici Brigade. So that this vehicle from the 7th Battalion was used
16 to France
17 of defence of the Sekovici Brigade and it has nothing to do with the
18 Zvornik Brigade. At that time I was not aware of any transport of
19 prisoners. This is the first time that I see this.
20 Q. Well, that's why I started with Mr. Butler's report. This has
21 been around for a long time. It was specifically referenced in
22 Mr. Butler's report. But you know nothing about these prisoners and what
23 happened to them?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 336.
1 Q. This is a daily combat report, looking at page 1 of the English
2 and page 1 of the B/C/S. From the 19th of July, in your name, and I
3 would like you to go back to the -- as best as you can recall the
4 testimony, one person testified in this trial, the other person whose
5 interview came in in a recorded way, 92 bis, that were the survivors of
6 an execution on or about the 18th of July. One of the people, you will
7 recall, was shot in the back and rolled down a hill and survived. The
8 other person was identified as a soldier and kept and later sent to
9 Batkovic. And it's our view, General, that this report under your name
10 is reporting on that incident:
11 "During the search operation, two Muslim soldiers were captured
12 and 13 eliminated."
13 Now, you've acknowledged that the 16th Krajina unit, which is
14 mentioned in this report and were searching the area, was under your
15 command. They were under your command on the 18th and 19th of July;
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. And if they murdered this group of individuals, you should have
19 known about it?
20 A. If they had been killed in combat, as is indicated in the report,
21 well, you can see that I knew about it because I received the report to
22 that effects. And I don't know why anyone would shoot somebody and leave
23 somebody else alive. If you are doing a search operation in high grass,
24 in rugged terrain, in wooded areas, you have those creeks, it is very
25 difficult to know whether somebody was shot in combat or killed after
1 capturing. But it was -- there was a clear order in effect that all
2 prisoners should be brought to Standard alive. And that's what happened.
3 They were brought there alive.
4 Q. You may recall that the two people I'm speaking of, PW 139, and
5 PW 119, both reported that the unit that got them got on the radio at the
6 time of the capture. Wouldn't it be fair to conclude that the unit got
7 on the radio to seek and inform their command what they were doing and
8 seek authorisation, or merely inform?
16 Q. So you don't believe the Muslim that said he was -- his group was
17 executed and he was shot and left for dead?
18 A. If fire was opened in the course of a search operation and in the
19 course of combat, that's quite logical. I will not now go into
20 questioning the truth of his evidence, but I do know that nobody had any
21 orders that the prisoners should be killed. But in the course of search
22 operation or combat, it is quite in line with military rules to open
24 Q. You are not suggesting that the account of the survivor of his
25 colleagues being shot down after capture has anything to do with combat
1 are you? Because that's what it sounds like, General?
2 A. Well, as is indicated in the report, they could have been killed
3 in combat. I have no knowledge to the contrary. And the witnesses who
4 testified about the people from Krajina, they were shown various insignia
5 and they were unable to recognise any of them. And I don't know who
6 mentioned this term, the people from Krajina. I don't know. How come
7 that they were killed by the people from Krajina and not from somebody --
8 not by somebody from the Zvornik Brigade?
9 Q. General, you heard the testimony of the MUP officer from Ugljevik
10 and the survivor of that incident that occurred around that same time in
11 the Snagovo area where others were shot after being captured?
12 A. Yes, I do recall that testimony.
13 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that didn't happen the way the
14 witness has testified it did. I mean, fundamentally, that Muslims were
15 captured and murdered?
16 A. As the same thing as I said for your previous question. This is
17 the evidence of that person. It was not verified through the testimony
18 of any other MUP personnel who were with him, to the best of my
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm told it's break time and if I
21 could just make a -- I've been in contact with my team, Mr. Vanderpuye,
22 who we are -- we are endeavouring to get in this motion for rebuttal
23 re-opening today, but we would really like to have a chance to review the
24 general's testimony and can you give us until Monday to do that?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Permission granted. But not beyond that. Yes,
1 Mr. Bourgon.
2 MR. BOURGON: Thank you, Mr. President. In light of the fact
3 that motion will be filed later, this -- we have been discussing on this
4 side, of course we haven't seen the motion yet, but we anticipate that we
5 will need the 14 days normal as forecasted or as set in the rules to
6 respond to this motion. Of course, we haven't seen the motion but it is
7 likely we will need the 14 days. Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for providing that information.
9 Obviously we will be the ones to decide. Mr. Haynes.
10 MR. HAYNES: Certainly given the comments that this motion is
11 going to be principally aimed at my case, I will need 14 days.
12 THE COURT: We'll come to that and we'll decide how much you
13 really need when we have seen the motion ourselves. We'll have a
14 25-minute break starting from now. Thank you.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Now, General, I'd like to go to 23 July and just briefly talk
20 about an intercept I think you've talked about already. It is
21 65 ter 1309A; in B/C/S 1309C. And this is from 23 July, 0800 hours, and
22 this is a conversation that you are involved in and I believe you told us
23 who you were speaking to; is that right?
24 A. Yes. With Colonel Cerovic.
25 Q. And you acknowledge that this was about the patients that were at
1 the Standard barracks at this time; correct?
2 A. The prisoners and the wounded.
3 Q. Okay. And the wounded that we are talking about, you knew that
4 those wounded were from Srebrenica; correct?
5 A. I knew that the wounded had been transferred from the
6 Zvornik hospital and I was able to assume that they were from Srebrenica
7 because they really were from Srebrenica.
8 Q. Well, and did you know that they had come from the Milici area,
9 the Milici hospital?
10 A. No, I don't remember the details. I know that I was told that
11 they were present there. Now, whether they had been in Milici, well, I
12 don't remember that.
13 Q. And you will agree that in your discussion with Cerovic you leave
14 it open on what is going to happen to these wounded and that we have to
15 go to the next intercept when someone calls back the brigade and leaves a
16 message; correct?
17 A. Yes, but you should know, well, you know that as has been shown
18 here, that as of the 20th I demanded the exchanges and I talked about the
19 exchanges and I mentioned Lisaca. This is not just a discussion about
20 the exchange of the wounded but also of the prisoners, and the final
21 decision was not made as to what should be done with them, as seen by the
22 conversation that followed.
23 Q. And by the 23rd of July, you were fully aware that
24 Vujadin Popovic had been involved in the murder operation of the
1 A. I knew at the time that he was there and that he was involved in
2 those activities.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to that next intercept which is five
4 minutes later, according to intercept. English 65 ter 1310A. And C in
5 the B/C/S. It's very short, it should be -- well, it's at 805 hours so
6 it's going to be on the -- probably the third page of the B/C/S. Yes,
7 B/C/S page 3.
8 Q. So we see five minutes later that the Muslims say that the
9 participant in the previous conversation called and asked for Vinko
10 again, but Ljubo answered and somebody told Ljubo to pass on to Vinko:
11 "What Vinko and I were just talking about will arrive at your
12 place by 1700. The boss, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic will arrive and say
13 what needs to be done regarding the work we talked about."
14 So you will agree that this was a call that came in right after
15 your conversation with Cerovic where Cerovic is telling you that
16 Lieutenant Popovic will come by at 1700 hours and deal with your problem
17 with the wounded and the prisoners; correct?
18 A. Yes, I agree that this conversation followed after the one at
20 Q. And what I just -- the rest of what I said, you agree with that
22 A. Well, you interpreted the contents of the conversation.
23 Q. Yes, and I asked you if you agreed with my interpretation.
24 A. Well, I agree because this was a job well done on your part.
25 Q. Now, let's go to the duty officer notebook of the same day.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 65 ter number 377. And I don't think --
2 it's just another very brief reference so I think we can just look at it
3 on the screen. It's B/C/S page 177. But I can also just -- so you can
4 get a look at it now. English 177. B/C/S 177.
5 Q. And this is the reference, around the same time in the morning,
6 0830 hours, that the duty officer has written down that
7 Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic relayed a message for the commander that
8 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic will arrive by 1700 hours. You will agree
9 with me again, I think, that this is the actual notation of the last
10 brief intercept confirming that it was Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic that
11 called and said that Popovic will arrive at 1700 hours?
12 A. Yes, the essence of the conversation was relayed, but the time
13 is 8.30 so it's a 25-minute lag.
14 Q. And this is noted as "relayed a message for the commander." So
15 that's message that they've -- the duty officer has specifically noted
16 down in the book that is a message to go to you; correct?
17 A. It doesn't say that it was relayed, but Lieutenant-Colonel
18 Cerovic made this report for the commander and it was obvious that I was
19 not there in the command, and then Ljubo received the message because I
20 went out to do something.
21 Q. Do you remember that or are you just assuming that?
22 A. I don't remember Bojanovic relaying this message to me
23 personally, but I know that this had to be dealt with with Cerovic and as
24 soon as he received any new information he was to relay to the command.
25 This is the order that I gave to Obrenovic to stay in contact with the
1 corps command and to deal with this issue as soon as possible.
2 Q. General, my question was: Do you remember leaving the brigade
3 command post? Clearly you could have just been down in the kitchen or in
4 the bathroom or any other place and this brief message given to the duty
5 officer who would be able to contact you shortly, so that is my question.
6 Do you remember actually leaving? You've not mentioned that before.
7 A. Well, I merely added now that since I did not speak to Cerovic
8 directly, had I been in the office I would have spoken to him, so I must
9 have been there somewhere, perhaps in the apartment or maybe in front of
10 the command building, I don't know. But for sure when Ljubo Bojanovic
11 received the message at 0830, I was not there because I would have
12 received it, the message, had I been there.
13 Q. Well, there's a lot of time between 0830 and 1700 hours. And
14 it's clear from your testimony that this was an important issue for you
15 that day, so I'm sure that this was passed on to you, that Popovic was
16 comic at 1700 hours to take care of this problem, wasn't it?
17 A. Well, I can just repeat for the third time, I don't recall
18 Ljubo relaying this message to me. I know what I ordered Obrenovic after
19 the briefing that was held on that day.
20 Q. Would you have been concerned, General, that Lieutenant-Colonel
21 Popovic was to come take over prisoners from you based on what he was up
22 to not but a few days before this?
23 A. Well, it was all the same to me who would deal with the problem.
24 What was important to me was for this problem to be solved. I'd been
25 telling you that I did not see Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic on that day in
1 the Zvornik Brigade command.
2 Q. I am sure you understand that you have a duty not to turn over
3 prisoners that will be killed by someone?
4 A. Well, I agree with you there, if I know for a fact that they are
5 to be killed.
6 Q. You knew that for the previous few days, 14, 15, 16 July,
7 thousands of Muslims had been killed, and that had been organised in part
8 by Popovic who is coming to take prisoners from you. So my question,
9 General, certainly you realised that had you not --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we have the reference that "Popovic
12 who is coming to take prisoners from you," where it is stated?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that that is the Prosecution's position.
14 Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you would like to comment on that.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe the General and I agreed that that was
16 the content of the phone conversation and that the message was clear that
17 Popovic was coming to deal with prisoners and wounded.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, it is not in this intercept. Just to convey
20 what to --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Right, but that is an argument.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- have to be done.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: That is an argument, Mr. Zivanovic. It has been
24 put to the witness and the witness has made a statement on what he thinks
25 that was all about. Then it's up to you later on to make submissions
1 should you feel the need to. So let's proceed.
2 Mr. McCloskey, my recollection is that you were interrupted
3 before finishing your question.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I've got it.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: If you go to line 13, 14 of the previous page, you
6 will understand what I mean.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Yes, General, you would have realised on the 23rd of July that
9 had you prevented Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic from taking custody of those
10 prisoners, you would have been in big trouble with General Krstic and
11 General Mladic, not to mention Radovan Karadzic. You agree?
12 A. Well, I don't know whether Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic came to
13 take those people in or whether he actually did that, but I can't see how
14 you can treat me in the same way after 20 days of my testimony here in
15 public about my private life in front of all the accused who are looking
16 at me and their Defence counsel who can now cross-examine me. Unlike
17 some others who testified as protected witnesses without the presence of
18 the other accused. I don't want to testify against Popovic or in favour
19 of Popovic. I'm telling you what I know and what I can conclude on the
20 basis of those documents.
21 Q. General, what do you think would have happened to you if you had
22 refused to release those prisoners to Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic? I'm
23 not saying from Popovic, I'm saying from his command.
24 A. Well, I can speculate now. I did not hand them over to Popovic.
25 Obrenovic told me about that and I personally charged him with taking
1 care of their safety and security, that those people had been transported
2 to Batkovic and he did not mention Popovic. Now, whether somebody went
3 to Batkovic and picked them up, whether they were -- they took a detour
4 in the course of the transportation, I don't know that.
5 Q. I'll try again, General, and I can tell you that the ICMP records
6 in this case, and I'll get a 65 ter number, have showed us that for the
7 14 named patients that were transferred from Milici to Zvornik, one died
8 at the Zvornik hospital, 12 are still missing, and one has been
9 identified from the Liplja secondary grave. So it's clear these people
10 were taken from your command and murdered.
11 So my question is, had you prevented Popovic from taking them,
12 knowing what you knew by this time, what would have happened to your
14 A. I agree with what you say about what happened to those people
15 based on the findings of the ICMP, but this is a hypothetical question.
16 What would have happened to my career had I prevented Popovic from taking
17 those people. First of all, if an order had come from the corps for me
18 to hand those people over for their transfer to Batkovic, there would
19 have been no reason to prevent anyone from taking them, including
21 Q. Well, you did receive an order of sorts from Cerovic that Popovic
22 would be coming to take care of them. You are saying you had no duty
23 whatsoever, once you received that order you were duty-bound to give
24 these prisoners to the organiser of the mass murders?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's again a misstatement. It does not follow
2 from the intercepts shown to the witness.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Do you wish to comment?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I disagree. This is the same topic we've been
5 talking about. I have a right to ask him these questions and these are
6 the -- we've mostly agreed on the facts and this is the position of the
8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, we'll look at this as a statement from
11 Mr. McCloskey that this is the position of the Prosecution that is being
12 put to the witness. So the witness can answer the question which he
13 should -- he should then proceed.
14 So, Mr. Pandurevic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I issued
16 an order for those people to be protected physically and to be given
17 medical treatment. I asked from the corps a solution or an order for
18 their transfer. I remember that I don't recall that Ljubo Bojanovic
19 explicitly told me that Colonel Popovic would come, and now Mr. McCloskey
20 is probably labouring on the basis of the hypothesis that a person who
21 had already killed can't wait to kill more people.
22 At the time I did not think like that. I thought it was logical
23 that at my request and intervention of the corps those people would be
24 transferred to Bijeljina.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. First of all, General, I'm not suggesting that Lieutenant-Colonel
2 Popovic can't wait to kill people. Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was
3 following his orders. And my question to you is: What would happen to
4 you if you had refused to give him those prisoners?
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has answered that.
6 MR. HAYNES: I think he has answered that four times now.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he has answered it. He is telling you that
8 if his understanding was that the request for the transfer of these
9 prisoners was for exchange purposes or to be taken to Bijeljina or
10 et cetera, then to him there would have been absolutely no obstacle. He
11 would have had to obey the order.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can go on, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to 65 ter 379.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Mr. Zivanovic.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we get exhibit about the
17 identification of the victim from Liplja. Mr. McCloskey told us that
18 we'll get it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm trying to get used to being cross-examined
21 during cross-examination but I will get that and we'll get that as and as
22 we can.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, and let's proceed in the meantime. It's
24 something that can be verified in the due course. If it's not correct
25 that part of the question and answer will just fall apart. That's all.
1 So let's continue.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. General, this Exhibit 65 ter 379, B/C/S page 115, English 115,
4 this is a record of the duty officer notebook. I think you've already
5 acknowledged it and where they write down the two telegram numbers of the
6 fuel that was coming in under Mladic's orders, the fuel that we've seen
7 on other exhibits that were to come to Trbic. So I'm sure you don't
8 disagree with me that that came to the duty officer and it was directed
9 for Trbic and we all agree that that was for the reburial operation;
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Then the question arises is, where were you on September
13 15th and you've talked about that. Can you remind us? I know you've
14 thought about that for your testimony and can you remind us where you
15 said you were on September 15th?
16 A. Well, it seems that there is always a one-day discrepancy. This
17 is a telegram that arrived on the 14th of September and I was in the
18 village of Velagici at the intersection of the roads between Bosanski
19 Petrovac and Kljuc. It's about 500 kilometres away from Zvornik if you
20 took the roads that were in existence at the time.
21 Q. Near Drvar; right?
22 A. Well, not really that close to Drvar. Maybe about 70 kilometres.
23 Q. And let me remind you what --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go into private session.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's do that.
1 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are now in open session. Thank you.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. General, to help refresh your recollection, this is the duty
11 officer notebook of 16 --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Should be page 119 in the English. Could we flip
13 forward. And 119 in the B/C/S, I'm told. Yeah, that's it.
14 Q. Where we can see there is a notation about 16 September in the
15 original and in the translation. And down, as we get closer to the
16 bottom it says:
17 "Vinko Pandurevic came back at 1130 hours."
18 So were you back in the brigade, like this says, on the 16th?
19 A. Yes, on the 16th I was back in the office. I'm still the
20 commander of the 2nd Drina Brigade at that time.
21 Q. All right. Let me show you a document, 7D 770. Page 1 and 2 IN
22 the English translation. It is a -- one of those vehicle logs that we
23 have become so familiar with. And we can look at the first page that is
24 up there. We see that this is the Nissan I believe we've talked about
25 before, and we see Bogdan Pandurevic as a driver. Now let's flip over to
1 the trip log or the next page, page 2. And if we can blow that up, we
2 can see that there's various trips that almost always have to do with
3 Drvar. Is that your vehicle that went to the Krajina?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. With you? That was your vehicle?
6 A. I was in the vehicle. That is the commander's vehicle.
7 Q. Okay. And so let's go to page 3 in this. That gets us to
8 15 September. And since you've got the original, General, we weren't
9 able to make out -- on 15 September, we see Sanski Most and Zvornik. Can
10 you see the first location there? Can you make that out?
11 A. Yes, yes, I can see it. It's Velagici-Sanski Most-Zvornik.
12 Q. Does that reflect where you were on the 15th with that vehicle?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So you got back to Zvornik at what time on the 15th?
15 A. On the 15th, I did not return to Zvornik at all.
16 Q. Well, this says Zvornik. As you said that one village,
17 Sanski Most, Zvornik?
18 A. He wrote down the route we travelled on the day. We did not
19 arrive in Zvornik on the 15th.
20 Q. Well, it says, "15 Zvornik." So you disagree with that?
21 A. Well, on the 15th the trip began. That was the Velagici-Sanski
22 Most-Zvornik route and it ended in Zvornik on the 16th, as we saw a
23 little while ago.
24 Q. Well, I won't argue with you, we see what this thing says. Then
25 we go to the next, 16 September, and it's your vehicle, your driver, and
1 presumably you going from Zvornik to Vlasenica; correct?
2 A. No, we didn't. When I arrived in Zvornik on the 16th, I talked
3 to Krstic and there was an agreement that I should go to Vlasenica that
4 day to report to him about what the brigade had been doing and that is
5 why the driver wrote down this route. If you look at the mileage, you
6 will see that the 100 kilometres it would take me to travel from Zvornik
7 to Vlasenica and back are not factored in. So I didn't go to Vlasenica
8 that day; if you do the calculation, you'll see that.
9 Q. So this indication that the command vehicle went from Zvornik to
10 Vlasenica is wrong, as is Obrenovic's version?
11 A. No, Obrenovic probably saw this trip log and on the basis of
12 that, he believed that I had gone there. And the driver always has to
13 have the vehicle ready before heading out anywhere in order for to us to
14 be able to head out on time. On that day I did not travel. You can see
15 that for the 17th the work notebook says -- it says that the commander
16 did not go to Vlasenica but should just report by phone, and I didn't
17 even go to Vlasenica on the 17th either.
18 Q. General Krstic is the kind of commander that wants a report, he
19 wants it when you are back and he want it face to face; correct?
20 A. Well, please find me a commander who doesn't like to receive
21 reports. Why is that something that's specific for Krstic? And we
22 didn't see each other. Well, a little while ago you showed a document
23 where it say that is the 2nd Drina Brigade, headed by Colonel Vinko
24 Pandurevic, came back at 1630 from Drvar on the 16th, and then you simply
25 disregard that, claiming that I arrived in Zvornik on the 15th. So what
1 document do you renounce and what document do you accept? Could you
2 please tell me that.
3 Q. General, it's a simple question. And I think you will agree with
4 me, right, General Krstic is the kind of guy that wants to be -- wants to
5 have a report and he wants to have it in front of him?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
7 MR. HAYNES: This is a very tiring experience, particularly if
8 the questions are asked two or three times all the time. That's exactly
9 the same question that was asked and answered at lines 18 to 25.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: He didn't answer it.
12 MR. HAYNES: Yes, he did.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: He said, Show me a commander that doesn't. I'm
14 just try together get a clear answer from him then he gave me a speech
15 and demanded several questions.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's refrain from arguing. Let's -- let me
17 consult with my colleagues, please.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't consider the previous question answered so
20 we are authorising the question, and General Pandurevic will now proceed
21 to answer it.
22 If you wish to repeat your question, Mr. McCloskey, please do so.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Simple question. He is the kind of commander that wants a report
25 back and to his face when you get back and he wants it accurate; correct?
1 A. Just like any commander wants to receive a report, General Krstic
2 wanted the same and he received one from me by telephone.
3 Q. And would you have needed to know from General Krstic that there
4 had been a decision made to unbury thousands of Muslim men in your area
5 and move them through down-town Zvornik in trucks to put them in
6 scattered multiple mass graves, wouldn't you have needed to know that,
7 General, when you got back?
8 A. If I had needed to know this, I would have needed to know
9 something before that, namely that Drihovnica [phoen] should be
10 transferred. How would I have known that something needed to be moved if
11 I didn't know they existed.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I would have needed
13 to know before that that prisoners existed and should be transferred,
14 which I didn't know.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. General, the prisoners are dead. Let's not go back there.
17 MR. HAYNES: I'm told we should probably try --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's a mistake.
19 MR. HAYNES: I think the General is about to correct it. I'm
20 told that the last answer did not convey the sense of what he said.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We had an interpreter's correction. And I don't
22 know if you got that translated to you in your language. But I think the
23 easiest, more practical way to go about it is for you to correct whatever
24 you feel needs correction, Mr. Pandurevic. Go ahead.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The interpreter
1 made a mistake in the correction. I didn't mention the prisoners, which
2 I see in the transcript. I said in order to express a need, I would have
3 had to be aware of that need as a rational being.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. General, you knew there were at least 3.000 dead Muslims buried
6 in mass graves in your area in September 1995. You will agree with me on
8 A. I knew that people had been killed and buried before September.
9 But somehow you are trying to link each of my arrivals to Zvornik to
10 prisoners, both those alive and those executed. When I returned from
11 Krajina, you know the kind of theatre of war I had been to. Which
12 commander -- which commander's first thought would have been, Do I need
13 information about the reburial? It wasn't my first thought.
14 Q. Okay. So the Muslims, the dead Muslims are not your first
15 thought. I understand that. But if they are going to get dug up and
16 moved with hundreds of tonnes of rubble and dirt and god only knows what
17 and moved through down-town Zvornik with trucks and men and engineering
18 equipment and MPs to guard them, don't you need to know that, that that
19 is going to be happening right from the centre of your brigade from
20 Pilica down to Cancari? Don't you need to know that, General?
21 A. Mr. McCloskey, you have seen the travel document from Obrenovic's
22 driver showing that he was in Vlasenica on the 15th and that he learned
23 on the 15th from General Krstic what the fuel would be used for. The
24 fuel that they received on the 14th. He didn't tell me anything about it
25 because it wasn't anything that concerned the Zvornik Brigade. And you
1 know that I did not take command over the Zvornik Brigade until the
2 26th September. I left Zvornik on the 18th. You know when the digging
3 up started and when it finished. All of that happened without my
4 knowledge and without my participation.
5 Q. I understand that's your position and I asked the question twice
6 already. Would you have wanted to know that this was going on in your
7 backyard so that you could able to deal with potential repercussions such
8 as the community being in an uproar?
9 A. I understand that question like this. If somebody had barged
10 into the yard of my house and looted something without my knowledge, how
11 would I have known whether it happened or not when I returned from Budva,
12 from Montenegro
13 lorries did pass through Zvornik.
14 Q. And it was still going on when you came back; right?
15 A. I don't recall that it was going on. I asked Mr. Jokic whether
16 the engineering unit, our engineering unit or he or anybody was involved
17 in that business. He said no. He said he had seen Autotransport
18 company's lorries carrying bodies. He said the stench was horrific and
19 it was the talk of the town. I also discussed it with Mr. Mijo
20 Dragutinovic who told me the same thing.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We should correct that to Mr. Jokic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Instead of Jocic.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. So General, you would know whether this was still going on or not
25 after you got back. Was it or was it not still going on?
1 A. I don't know, Jokic informed me that he was aware this had been
2 happening. No one from the engineering company was involved, and I no
3 longer saw any of those trucks.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to 65 ter number 4294.
5 Q. This is an intercept dated 23 September, so that is a Saturday,
6 I'm told. You are still on your vacation at that point; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if this is a Saturday, when do you get back, what day?
9 A. On the 25th I travelled from Zvornik to Budva. I spent the day
10 travelling and I arrived in Zvornik in the afternoon of that day.
11 Q. So you went from Budva to Zvornik?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. And we can see this intercept which I'm not sure you
14 talked about before. I don't think you did. It's one that we identified
15 in hearing your testimony, I believe. And this is between General Krstic
16 and a Captain Petrovic. And who is Captain Petrovic, as far as you know?
17 A. It's probably Milisav Petrovic who was chief of communications at
18 the staff of the Zvornik Brigade at the time.
19 Q. All right. So we see the conversation.
20 Krstic: "Hello, where is your commander."
21 "He hasn't come back from the field yet.
22 "Let me speak so the officer on duty.
23 "Just a second.
25 "Krstic speaking.
1 "Captain Petrovic here. What can I do for you General, sir?
2 "When will the captain be back, Petrovic?"
3 Can you just read that, I don't know if that's a -- the Muslims
4 made that mistake or we did. Can you read after: "Captain Petrovic
5 here, what can I do for you General, sir." Krstic saying: "When will
6 the captain be back." Is that what it said: "When will the captain be
8 A. No, it says: "Petrovic, when is your commander coming back."
9 Not captain.
10 Q. That's what I thought. Thank you, General.
11 A. Do you have the handwritten version?
12 Q. Somewhere. We'll check it out, but I think it gets cleared up
13 down the way. As it goes on:
14 "Well, we are expecting him any minute now. He has gone to the
15 field to check on one of the units."
16 And then we go to: "When is Vinko back?"
17 "Vinko? He should be here on Monday."
19 "Yes, Monday evening."
20 Krstic says: "Are you in contact with him?"
21 Then it's: "Hello."
22 "Are you in contact with him?"
23 "Well, yes, we could get in contact with him but" -- sounds like
24 they are not real anxious to interrupt you on your holiday.
25 A. Well, Petrovic says, Well, we have. I'm not sure that he
1 personally knew for sure that he could get in touch with me. He supposed
2 that I had left a contact number.
3 Q. And then Krstic says: "Listen, make sure that he, listen ...
5 "... That he comes to me Monday at 7.00."
6 Petrovic: "Okay. I got it. He should come to you Monday at 7."
7 Krstic: "Yes."
8 Petrovic: "No problem?"
10 So we see from this intercept that Krstic wants you to come by
11 and to see him, Krstic, on Monday, the 25th of September; correct?
12 A. Yes, he wanted that.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And go into private session just briefly.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go to private session, please.
15 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We are in open session, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
9 Q. Now, General, I want to -- you remember testifying about a
10 document. I think your lawyer made an effort to get the original because
11 it had a stamp on it. And you had testified that you had signed this
12 document but that you had not signed it on the 25th when it was dated,
13 but that you had signed it over the stamp on the 26th when you came back
14 into the office; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And as you know, we've found another document that is a copy of
17 that document, both of them having stamps. And if I can let you see both
18 of them, and as counsel knows, we have been trying to find a time for the
19 General to take a look and study these documents so that he can think
20 about it before answering and I'm not sure we've really ever found a
21 time, with security going back and forth, to give the General the time,
22 maybe we can take a few minutes, and it's almost a break, but I'm
23 definitely going to finish, I think, within the first hour of Monday.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you for that. Mr. Haynes.
25 MR. HAYNES: We haven't. I know Mr. McCloskey wouldn't have
1 minded me doing it but it seemed to me it was something I probably needed
2 your leave to do, to discuss a document he was going to be shown in
3 evidence. So we haven't done that. If you want to break now and have
4 him look at it over the weekend, that might be a sensible suggestion. I
5 think everybody is getting quite tired today.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I would go for that. My colleagues? Okay. Yes,
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Our only problem is we need to have him look at
9 it very close by as an evidentiary matter.
10 MR. HAYNES: Well, it always takes him a few minutes to be moved
11 from there so it can be put in front of him on that table now and
12 Ms. Stewart and Mr. McCloskey can sit be close by.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That would be fine and then he wouldn't be late.
14 If we could just adjourn now and we'll give him the documents.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Happy with that, Mr. Haynes?
16 MR. HAYNES: Absolutely.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will do it that way. We stand adjourned
18 until Monday, 9.00 in the morning. Thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.37 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of March,
21 2009, at 9.00 a.m.