1 Monday, 9 March, 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. Could
6 you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, ma'am.
10 So now for the record, all the accused are here. I notice some
11 absentees amongst the Defence teams; Mr. Nikolic for the Beara Defence
12 team; Mr. Bourgon for the Nikolic team; Mr. Lazarevic for the Borovcanin
13 Defence team; Mr. Krgovic for the Gvero Defence team. That's it.
14 Prosecution today is like last week, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Mitchell.
15 Yes. We are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis. I think for the
16 next couple of days, at least, that will remain the position. Hopefully
17 in the course of the week, Judge Stole will be able to join us, probably
18 either Wednesday or Thursday.
19 Mr. McCloskey, last week we asked our senior legal officer to
20 approach you to state in court if now you know the whereabouts of Mr.
21 Jasikovic, Jasikovac. My apologies. Yes.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. The
23 answer is yes, we think we do.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We don't need it in open session. If that
25 is the case -- yes, let's go into private session.
1 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be coming down very, very soon with our
21 decision on the Gvero motions on a number of exhibits. However, you will
22 recall that in the course of the testimony of Mr. Jevdjevic and
23 General Kosovac, there were some exhibits tendered which remain the
24 subject matter of an objection by some of you. These are not, strictly
25 speaking, covered by the two Gvero motions that we will be deciding. I
1 would very much like to know if you've had time to sit down around the
2 table together and discuss the contested exhibits. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, not yet. I was asked about this
4 on Friday, I believe, and we've been trying to sort out which ones of
5 those exhibits are contested, and we should be able to meet today since
6 everyone is here now, and I'm not sure there's -- we don't have a record
7 of a lot of contested exhibits aside from the ones in the motion, but
8 we'll sort that out with everyone hopefully this afternoon. I don't see
9 any reason why we can't sort it out this afternoon.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Josse.
11 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, for our part, I hoped I made clear on
12 the 2nd of March that I had come to an agreement with Mr. Vanderpuye, in
13 fact, on behalf of the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, about two documents.
15 MR. JOSSE: About two documents, yes. It's 4208, which is going
16 to be admitted, and 4220, which is not going to be admitted.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's the agreement. In other words, you
18 would also agree that the last of these two documents, the latter be not
20 MR. JOSSE: Precisely.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. But does that exhaust the
22 problems or the issues raised by you in particular?
23 MR. JOSSE: I'm bound to say I thought so in as much as the
24 objections were meant to cover only such matters or such documents as we
25 were in fact objecting to. It was Mr. Vanderpuye who wanted me to make
1 it clear that we were not objecting to P4208. I had hoped that was
2 implicit by the fact it wasn't it objections motion, but I welcome the
3 opportunity to speak to Mr. McCloskey and confirm the position.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I asked you because last week, as you can well
5 imagine now, we were discussing this with our staff, and the impression
6 was that the objections were not limited to these two documents only, so
7 I was acting under that assumption, but I would be happy to know that I
8 was wrong or that my staff was wrong.
9 MR. JOSSE: Well, I suspect I'm the cause of the
10 misunderstanding. Let me try and resolve it in the next few hours.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that so much, Mr. Josse. Thank you.
12 Yes. I think we can start now unless there are other
13 preliminaries you would like to raise?
14 Yes. The other thing is this, Mr. McCloskey, the Besina
15 witnesses that you wanted to call, do you know the timing of them
16 roughly? Because I got information through our senior legal officer that
17 the lacuna that the Pandurevic Defence team was expecting to encounter in
18 the course of the week, particularly Wednesday and also for awhile
19 tomorrow, were going to be filled in by you, by the Prosecution. I don't
20 have information whether that applies, also, to today, and what's the
21 programme going to be like, the schedule going to be like for the rest of
22 the week?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, my understanding is that we have
24 one witness that's here that should be ready to go tomorrow sometime, if
25 we reach that point, and -- yeah, that -- I can go into private session.
1 I'm not sure. I think we had filed a motion for protective measures on
2 this witness. So we should have someone that's here in time as far as I
3 know. I haven't heard the latest on travel arrangements, but the plan
4 was the person was here and could be ready to testify when they ran out
5 of witnesses, which was going to be expected tomorrow sometime, I think,
6 unless, you know, we do sometimes what we do and keep them.
7 The other witness was coming on Tuesday night, which means we
8 won't really have a chance to talk to them until Wednesday morning, and
9 so Wednesday, it appears Wednesday morning is a down day, and we thought
10 we could either start at 10.30 or we could perhaps see if the afternoon
11 court would change with us, and --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That is acceptable -- one moment.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We do have a problem with Wednesday
15 afternoon, so your suggestion to start the sitting later in the morning
16 of Wednesday would be acceptable. So Wednesday we will start at 10.30
17 rather than 9.00. Okay. Instead of 9.00.
18 Yes. Thank you. Now, no preliminaries? Right.
19 So we have a leftover from General Pandurevic's testimony. That
20 is the --
21 MR. HAYNES: I think we have all agreed we will deal with the
22 witness first and deal with the tendering afterwards.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I didn't know that. All right.
24 You don't seem convinced, Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: We are ready to do that a little later. We spoke
1 about that.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's bring the witness in, please.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. God help everyone.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are most welcome. You have been summoned
7 by General Pandurevic as one of his witnesses. Before you start your
8 testimony, our rules require that you enter a solemn declaration to the
9 effect that you will be testifying the truth and the whole truth. Madam
10 usher is going to hand you the text of the declaration. Please read it
11 out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: ZVONKO BAJAGIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable. You
17 will be asked some questions by counsel for General Pandurevic, Mr.
18 Sarapa, who will introduce himself better to you. And afterwards, you
19 will be asked some questions possibly on cross-examination.
20 Mr. Sarapa, please go ahead.
21 Examination by by Mr. Sarapa:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bajagic.
23 A. Good morning. God help you too.
24 Q. For the records I have to introduce myself, although you know me.
25 My same is Djordje Sarapa, and I'm Defence counsel for Vinko Pandurevic.
1 Could you please introduce yourself and give us your full name?
2 A. Zvonko Bajagic.
3 Q. When were you born?
4 A. 6th September, 1953.
5 Q. As we are speaking the same language, before you answer my
6 question, could you please look at the screen in front of you and see if
7 the typing has finished, because that's the English translation, and we
8 want to facilitate the work of the interpreters.
9 Where were you born?
10 A. In Vlasenica.
11 Q. Where did you finish primary school?
12 A. Vlasenica.
13 Q. Could you tell us where you completed the secondary school and
14 which school?
15 A. In Bijeljina and Tuzla
16 Q. Did you do the compulsory military service in the Yugoslav
17 People's Army?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Can you tell us in which places?
20 A. In 1972 over 1973 in Kraljevo and Belgrade.
21 Q. In which army -- in which arm of the service did you do your
23 A. The auto unit.
24 Q. Where do you live now?
25 A. In Vlasenica.
1 Q. What is your occupation?
2 A. I'm unemployed.
3 Q. Where did you live before the war, before the war broke out in
5 A. In Vlasenica.
6 Q. Can you tell us, what was your occupation or occupations from
7 when you first began to work until the outbreak of the war?
8 A. I was a haulier. I worked in catering, and just before the war I
9 worked as a commercial manager in a private company.
10 Q. When were you mobilised into the Army of Republika Srpska?
11 A. April 1992.
12 Q. In which units, in what positions were you during the war?
13 A. I was mobilised into the technical service, the procurement
14 section, the Vlasenica Battalion. Later --
15 Q. Go on.
16 A. Sometime in the summer of 1992, I was assigned to the Birac
17 Brigade to the same job, the technical service procurement clerk.
18 Q. Did you have a rank?
19 A. No. I did not have a rank, but I should probably mention that
20 when the Drina Corps was established, I was moved from the brigade into
21 the Drina Corps, into the logistics, also to serve as a procurement desk
22 officer, without a rank.
23 Q. When were you demobed?
24 A. I think in July 1996.
25 Q. Did you have a rank at the time when you were demobilised?
1 A. I had been given the rank of 2nd lieutenant.
2 Q. Mr. Bajagic, do you remember telling -- or, rather, giving a
3 statement to the Pandurevic Defence team certified by a notary public?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Did you have an occasion, or, rather, have you had an occasion
6 since you arrived in The Hague
8 A. Yes. Yesterday evening you showed it to me.
9 Q. Is that statement the true reflection of what you actually
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Mr. Bajagic, if you were asked the same questions today, would
13 you answer the question the same way as you did at the moment when you
14 were providing the statement?
15 A. Yes, of course.
16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for you,
17 sir. I would like to read the summary of the witness's statement at this
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] In July 1995, the witness was a
21 member of the technical service in the command of the Drina Corps. He
22 was a desk officer. His rank was 2nd lieutenant. He performed the
23 duties of procurement, logistics, and he procured technical equipment for
24 the staff command of the Drina Corps.
25 On the 11th of July, 1995, the witness brought to the command of
1 the Bratunac Brigade food that had been prepared elsewhere. It was fish,
2 carp. The food was brought to be served as dinner to the officers of the
3 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, of the Drina Corps, and the
4 brigades. That happened late in the evening. The persons who were
5 present were as follows: General Ratko Mladic, General Radislav Krstic,
6 and other officers.
7 The witness remembers that Vinko Pandurevic was also there. He
8 has known Vinko Pandurevic since 1993. The officers came for dinner
9 after a meeting that had been held at the command of the Bratunac
10 Brigade. The witness also remembers that on that day, the Army of
11 Republika Srpska had entered Srebrenica.
12 The witness is certain that this happened on the 11th of July
13 because that was the eve of the day of St. Peter. St. Peter's Day is a
14 church holiday which the Serb orthodox church celebrates on 12 July.
15 Since the dinner was served on the 11th of July, which was part of the
16 feast of the fast of St. Peter, fish had to be served as part of that
18 On the following day, the 12th of July, there was a celebration
19 of St. Peter's Day in Vlasenica. St. Peter's Day is the day of the
20 church in Vlasenica. The church is actually dedicated to the apostles
21 Peter and Paul, and the witness is the godfather of the church in
23 On St.
24 lunch at the Panorama Hotel in Vlasenica. St. Peter's Day is also the
25 day of the municipality and the town of Vlasenica, and this brings the
1 summary statement to an end.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
3 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] I would like to tender document
4 number 7D1092, which is the witness's statement provided on the 27th of
5 December, 2007
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Sarapa. Any objections other
7 members of the Defence teams?
8 Mr. Mitchell?
9 MR. MITCHELL: No objection, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So it's so admitted. Do you have any
11 further questions to the witness, Mr. Sarapa?
12 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Just two questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead, please.
14 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Bajagic, I have just two more questions for you. Can you
16 please tell us, why did you bring food to the Bratunac Brigade that
17 evening? Was that of your own initiative, or had somebody asked you to
18 do that?
19 A. On the 11th, I prepared food for the evening. It was a meat-free
20 meal, and at the same time we prepared meat for the following day, for
21 the holiday celebration that would take place on the 12th of July. 12th
22 of July is the day when we celebrate the two apostles, St. Peter and St.
23 Paul. Sometime in the afternoon hours, I believe that it was around 1700
24 hours, Colonel Acamovic called me. He was the assistant commander for
25 logistics in the Drina Corps. He asked me whether I would be able to
1 allocate some of the food that was being prepared for the evening meal on
2 the 11th of July to be served to the guests who would be attending dinner
3 and who were supposed to arrive from Serbia and Montenegro
4 regions of what is today Republika Srpska.
5 He asked me to take that food to Bratunac because General Mladic
6 was in Bratunac, and also General Krstic was there, and some ten or so
7 officers together with them.
8 Q. Mr. Bajagic, you can go a bit faster.
9 A. Yes, I will. I said I could certainly do that, but that I
10 couldn't do it before half past 8.00. I cannot leave for Bratunac before
11 half past 8.00. He said, Very well, deal.
12 Q. What were you told? Where were you supposed to take that food
13 for dinner?
14 A. To the command of the Bratunac Brigade, which was located in the
15 fabric -- in the factory of ceramic tiles.
16 Q. Let's just clarify one part in your previous answer. You
17 mentioned guests from Serbia
18 did Acamovic tell you? Who were you supposed to bring the food for?
19 Could you please be more precise in your answer?
20 A. For General Mladic, General Krstic, and some ten or so other
22 Q. Mr. Bajagic, had you ever prepared food for reputable guests
23 before that evening?
24 A. Yes, of course, a number of times. There were many such
25 occasions, and yours truly was honoured by having hosted in my own house
1 the patriarch of Moscow
2 retired from his duties maybe a month ago. Very often I hosted our own
3 patriarch, Pavle, as he would be passing through our region, and he would
4 always pay me a visit no matter who he was accompanied with.
5 I would also like to point out that I served as a host before the
6 war to the Mufti of Belgrade and entire Serbia, Mr. Jusufspahic - I
7 believe that is his name - and that happened every time when he was on
8 his way to Sarajevo
9 with reis-ul-ulema. He trusted that the food that I would prepare for
10 him would be prepared according to the rules of Koran.
11 I also had an occasion to play host in my own house to the former
12 president of America
13 President Karadzic. Two members of his delegation also spent the night
14 in my house that same day.
15 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Bajagic. I
16 have no further questions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Sarapa. Now, Mr. Zivanovic?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No question for the witness, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Ostojic.
20 MR. OSTOJIC: No questions, Mr. President. Thank you.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I was told this morning you had anticipated an hour
22 and a half?
23 MR. OSTOJIC: I did and --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it some strange Monday feeling or ...
25 MR. OSTOJIC: No. I wanted to ask for 15 minutes to consult,
1 but, you know, I think that we can pass at this point. If something
2 comes up, I'll sure address to the Court, and I'll leave it to your
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Nikolic.
5 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour. Thank
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Gosnell.
8 MR. GOSNELL: No questions, Mr. President. Thank you.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Fauveau.
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No questions.
11 MR. JOSSE: Happy to join the party.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And Mr. Mitchell, he is all yours.
13 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Remember that he is unemployed, so instead of a
15 cross-examination, perhaps you could offer him a job as a chef for the
16 Office of the Prosecution. I'm sure he will keep you all happy.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Mitchell:
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bajagic.
19 A. God be with you. Good morning.
20 Q. Sir, if at any point when I'm asking you questions I look down,
21 I'm not being rude. I'm just checking that the transcript is coming
22 through correctly.
23 I'd like to start off and ask you some questions about your
24 relationship with Mr. Pandurevic. When did you first meet
25 Vinko Pandurevic?
1 A. Sometime in 1993.
2 Q. And where did you meet him?
3 A. We met at the Main Staff. I think, but I'm not sure.
4 Q. And how often did you see him in 1993 and 1994?
5 A. Not very often, no. I saw him from time to time when he was
6 appointed as the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, but I don't know when
7 that happened. I can't remember.
8 Q. How would you describe your relationship with him? Was it purely
9 professional, or did you regard him as a friend?
10 A. Well, I was not a professional soldier, so our relationship could
11 not have been a professional relationship. I liked the man at the time
12 because he hailed from the same region. He hailed from the Romanija
13 plateau just as I did.
14 Q. Okay --
15 A. The first time I saw him, I found him a bit strange, a bit odd.
16 I looked at him to see who he reminded me of because people looking like
17 him are very few and far between in the region where we come from. There
18 are big and strong men like him, but there are no ginger and freckled
19 people like him.
20 Q. Sir, do you know Milenko Jevdjevic?
21 A. I do, yes.
22 Q. And when did you first meet him?
23 A. He arrived at the command of the Drina Corps when he was
24 appointed as a signalsman, and that's when I met him.
25 Q. How would you describe your relationship with Mr. Jevdjevic?
1 A. Jevdjevic is a poet, and I am a fiddler, so we made a good team.
2 He wrote poetry, and I sang his poetry.
3 Q. So you were friends with Mr. Jevdjevic?
4 A. I don't know what you mean when you say friends. We socialised,
5 yes. There is a difference between just a mate and a friend.
6 Q. Do you still socialise with him?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When was the last time you saw him?
9 A. I can't remember.
10 Q. Do you recall the last time you spoke with him?
11 A. There was a meeting of poets somewhere. I don't even remember
12 where. He passed by my house, and he stopped to say hello. I don't know
13 when that was.
14 Q. Can you recall even the year?
15 A. It was a long time ago. I can't.
16 Q. Do you know Sreten Milosevic?
17 A. No. The name doesn't ring a bell. Can you jog my memory, maybe?
18 Q. The assistant commander for logistics in the Zvornik Brigade?
19 A. I don't remember. I don't know who that is.
20 Q. Miladin Mijatovic [Realtime transcript read in error, "Zlotovic"]
21 from the Zvornik Brigade, logistics organ?
22 A. I know him, yes.
23 Q. Did you socialise with him?
24 A. And what period of time are you referring to now?
25 Q. Between 1992 to 1995, during the war.
1 A. No, I didn't socialise with him. He lives in Zvornik, I live in
2 Vlasenica. The distance between the two is about 50 kilometres, and I
3 don't know why I would socialise with him.
4 Q. But you would have spoken to him regularly as part of your work
5 in the logistics organ; correct?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa.
7 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] There's a mistake in the transcript
8 in line 12 on this page. It says Miladin Zlotovic. Could the Prosecutor
9 be asked to repeat the family name of the person so that it may be
10 recorded properly, because the person's name is not Zlotovic.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Sarapa.
12 MR. MITCHELL:
13 Q. Certainly. Miladin Mijatovic?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Bajagic, when you said I know him, yes, you
15 were actually referring to Miladin Mijatovic and not to anyone else?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mijatovic. If that's the
17 person you are asking me about, then I know who you are talking about,
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I was just confirming with you. Yes,
20 Mr. Mitchell.
21 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. So you would have spoken with Mr. Mijatovic regularly as part of
23 your work in the Drina Corps logistics organ; correct?
24 A. No. There was nothing to talk about. He was a logistics man.
25 As far as I know, he was with the Zvornik Brigade and I was with the
2 Q. So isn't it --
3 A. We had our superiors. I don't know what you think that we were
4 talking about. We did speak about bees, honey, and mushrooms, about
5 medicinal herbs because that was his particular hobby, and it still is.
6 I know that for a fact.
7 Q. So you've told us about -- you mentioned Lazar Acamovic the
8 assistant commander for rear services. What was your relationship with
9 him like?
10 A. Well, our relationship was a relationship between a subordinate
11 and a superior.
12 Q. And what about Rajko Krsmanovic? How was your relationship with
14 A. The name doesn't ring a bell. Who is Rajko Krsmanovic?
15 Q. Head of transportation service in the Drina Corps?
16 A. Well, it was nothing special. We were very official in our
17 everyday business.
18 Q. Now, as a member of the Drina Corps, you must have known Vujadin
19 Popovic; correct.
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And you're a logistics man. Do you recall what kind of car
22 Mr. Popovic drove?
23 A. I haven't a clue.
24 Q. So do you know any of the other accused in this case?
25 A. I know General Gvero.
1 Q. And how do you know him?
2 A. Well, he was assistant commander for moral guidance and religious
4 Q. Did you socialise with General Gvero?
5 A. What? Well, to tell you the truth, it was a bit weird to me that
6 a general and a communist should be appointed assistant commander for
7 religious [Realtime transcript read in error, "logistics"] affairs, but I
8 could see that he was a good man, a good person. And since I am
9 president of the church union in my hometown for almost 35 years now, and
10 I was twice president of the management board in the parish of Tuzla
11 Zvornik, and there was a drive at the time to achieve a reapportionment
12 between the the church and the army and the military leadership, so on
13 that level we had certain contacts.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just one error in translation. This is page 19,
16 line 1. Instead logistics, he said religious affairs.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
18 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Mr. Bajagic, I'd like to talk to you about when you first joined
20 the VRS in April of 1992. Your statement says that you were drafted;
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So were you ordered to join the army, or did you volunteer?
24 A. It was a mobilisation drive.
25 Q. So you were ordered?
1 A. Well, I abide by the mobilisation. If I had not responded, I
2 don't know, but there would have been certain sanctions, I suppose.
3 Q. Now, prior to that in 1991, you were involved in arming the Serbs
4 in the Vlasenica area in their defence against the Muslims; correct?
5 A. That is not correct.
6 Q. Serb civilians and the Territorial Defence started arming
7 themselves in the Vlasenica area in 1991, didn't they?
8 A. Yes, they started arming, but I did not do that.
9 MR. MITCHELL: Could we please go to 65 ter 4412. I have a hard
10 copy for the witness.
11 Q. Sir, this is an intercepted conversation dated 11 December 1991
12 between you and Radovan Karadzic. I'd just like to read some of the
13 first page. It starts off with:
14 You: "Koljevic?
16 "Mr. Koljevic, it's Bajagic from Vlasenica.
17 "Oh, how are you doing?
18 "Well, fine."
19 And Radovan Karadzic comes on:
20 "... Zvonko.
21 "With God's help, and how are you?
22 "May God help you. How are you?
23 "Well, fine. I can hear that you are busy. I'll make it short.
24 "Yes, yes, we have some foreign journalists here.
25 "Well, we are, perhaps you know it, Rajko told you, now before,
1 this now, the plebiscite, when we had rallies, offered mobilisation,
2 voluntary, army to the people.
4 "And the response we had, it's simply amazing! About 600
5 volunteers in two days."
6 MR. MITCHELL: Sorry, B/C/S page 2.
7 Q. Radovan Karadzic says:
9 And then you say:
10 "They have all been clothed and armed."
11 Sir, this is you talking about armed volunteers in 1991; correct?
12 A. Well, I said they were clothed and armed because it was a
13 mobilisation drive. The Yugoslav Army was there at the time. They
14 organised the mobilisation, and it was mostly Serbs who responded to the
15 call-up. There were some Muslims who did so too. It was the Yugoslav
16 Army that provided the equipment and the weapons.
17 MR. MITCHELL: If we can go to the next page in English. If we
18 go down.
19 Q. You say:
20 "We'll bring trumpet players from Uzice, a military orchestra
21 from Sarajevo
22 "I see.
23 And somebody will ... here, our commander has left to see if he
24 can get General Durdevac to support.
25 "Yes, I see.
1 "And seeing that the party has done it all, the job and the
2 bauxite mine ... will be nice if someone can come and be there tomorrow.
3 "I tell you what, I think that the party should ... what is being
4 done there is great, but now it's finished, and people have been clothed,
5 to avoid the army together accused of being affiliated to a party, I
6 mean, it wouldn't be a good idea for ...
7 "For somebody to come?"
8 "Yes, yes."
9 A. I'm sorry.
10 Q. That's page 2. It should be on the screen in front of you as
12 A. All right. I found it.
13 Q. Sir, this isn't the JNA arming these people, is it? It's the
15 A. Well, the JNA, if they drafted him, they will give him weapons,
16 not a shovel.
17 Q. Sir, we see you saying:
18 "And seeing that the party has done it all ..."
19 That's the SDS
20 A. No, I don't mean the SDS
21 Where did I say that?
22 Q. It's close to the bottom of the second page. It's the sixth box
23 from the bottom, your name, and it says:
24 "And seeing that the party has done it all, the job and the
25 bauxite mine, it will be nice if someone could come and be there
2 So is the reference to the party, is that a reference to the SDS?
3 A. Well, I was a member of the party and we organised ourselves to
4 prepare that a lunch for the troops to the best of our ability and to get
5 the bauxite mine to help with organising the lunch and the celebration
6 and the feast, to bring the music, the wheel dance, et cetera, the
7 singing. We got involved to organise that part of it.
8 Q. And when you say you were a member of the party, you were a
9 member of the SDS
10 A. Yes, the SDS
11 the people. I was never a member of the political party, and I don't
12 accept that. 90 per cent of the Serbs were in that movement in 1991
13 until it all started.
14 Q. Sir, that answer is not very clear. Were you or were you not a
15 member of the SDS
16 A. Yes, I was part of the SDS
17 for the salvation of the Serbian people, not politically.
18 Q. And how long were you a member of the SDS party for?
19 A. Until -- I don't know which year, maybe 2002, 2003.
20 Q. Okay. Let's move to another topic. I'd like to talk about your
21 promotion during the war. You told us that you joined the army as a
22 private; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you left the army as a 2nd lieutenant?
25 A. As a 2nd lieutenant.
1 Q. Sir, do you recall in 1993 that General Zivanovic recommended
2 that you be promoted from private to captain 1st class?
3 A. 1993? I don't know, maybe. Well, how can you be promoted
4 straight from a private to a captain?
5 MR. MITCHELL: Can we please look at 65 ter 4410.
6 Q. Promotion from a private to a captain 1st class is a big jump,
7 isn't it, sir?
8 A. Oh, I wish. I wish, because where I live, captains are much more
9 popular than colonels.
10 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at this order or this recommendation for
11 Zvonko Bajagic, private, recommendation for exceptional promotion. If we
12 go down, he is recommending that you be promoted to the rank of reserves
13 captain 1st class at the technical services, and we see your name. If we
14 can go to the next page of the document in English, and I'd just like to
15 read out some of this explanation to you:
16 "Since the first days of the battle of the Serbian people, the
17 above named has engaged himself to the utmost as well as his family,
18 relatives, and friends, selflessly dedicating himself to materially
19 equipping the Serbian soldiers and units. Since the day of the formation
20 of the corps, he has been put in a very responsible position, which he
21 maintains very successfully. As is the nature of this work to handle
22 goods of high material" --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
24 MR. MITCHELL:
25 Q. "... a person of weaker morals would succumb to temptation;
1 however, we may proudly state that Zvonko is a truly honourable Serb,
2 whose decency honouring orthodoxy manifests the guiding star towards the
3 salvation and victory of the Serbian people. All those sincerely wishing
4 well to the Serbian people can regard an ideal in the character of Zvonko
5 Bajagic. This command recommends to the Superior Command to promote the
6 above named to the rank of reserve's captain 1st class of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska. The rank we are recommending will be given to a man
8 who will never and nowhere underestimate or belittle it."
9 And this goes to the organ for personnel matters of the
10 Main Staff. Sir, do you know why General Zivanovic proposed this
11 exceptional promotion in July 1993?
12 A. I would like to get this to leave it to my grandchildren for my
13 family archives. I'm really proud to have something as nice as this
14 written about me.
15 Q. Well, do you recall why General Zivanovic proposed that you be
17 A. Well, you see, it's beginning to come back to me now. Being in
18 the corps command and in that service for procurement, serving as a desk
19 officer for procurement, it had to be someone with a rank, whereas I was
20 a private, so maybe it was a requirement of the personnel department that
21 I be given a rank, I suppose.
22 Q. Sir, I'd like to suggest to you that while your military position
23 may have been just a clerk in the Drina Corps logistics organ, you were
24 actually a very wealthy, influential man in Vlasenica at the time; isn't
25 that correct?
1 A. Well, it depends what you call wealthy. Define wealthy. I was
2 wealthy in spirit first. I was one of the well-off people in my area,
3 having created all I had with my own hands, praying to God all the time,
4 and I never worked for a state-run company. I always worked in private
5 business. I was always self-employed, and that was always the thorn in
6 the side of the Yugoslav authorities. Private initiative and
7 entrepreneurship was not allowed to develop, but I did as I did.
8 And as for influential, I wouldn't call it influential.
9 Influential would be something else. I was a prominent head of household
10 in my parish, and that reputation was well earned among the Serbs and the
11 Muslims by my loyalty and faith and honourable work. In my business, I
12 never cheated anyone. I never owed money to anyone. If I wasn't able to
13 help a person, I did not do them any harm either.
14 Q. You were entrusted with some very important work in the Drina
15 Corps, weren't you, sir? You used to deal with important issues such as
16 the procurement of fuel from Serbia
17 A. You say important work. Other people did it before me, but when
18 materiel and equipment had to be collected from somewhere, taken over, I
19 always really only collected, whereas the people who did that job before
20 me, collected something and brought it, it turned out that something was
21 always missing. As for myself, whatever I brought back, nothing was ever
22 missing, and that was well respected.
23 Q. Sir, did you used to talk to General Mladic and General Perisic
24 about the procurement of this fuel?
25 A. Well, I did talk to them on friendly terms as a host, nothing to
1 do with the affairs of the Main Staff and the military leadership. I
2 mean, who was I to talk to them about such things? Perisic called on me
3 sometimes at my home, visited, if that means anything. But the fact that
4 everybody visited, I can tell you it's explained by the fact that
5 everybody was curious to see the inside of my house. I can tell you that
6 you won't find a house anything like mine in all of Republika Srpska or
7 in Montenegro
8 has so many artifacts and exhibits of the history of Serbs, that maybe
9 not even the museum in Cetinje can boast that much. I even have the
10 remains of Archdeacon Stephane, one of Christ's martyrs, and the way I
11 live is practically the same way of living that was practiced by St.
13 regularly, and this house protocol, which is the church protocol, was
14 always well respected where I live.
15 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, sir. I think it's time for the break,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Time for a break. 25 minutes. Thank you.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
21 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Sir, I just asked you about you dealing with important issues
23 such as the procurement of fuel from Serbia. There were occasions where
24 you donated fuel personally to the VRS; isn't that correct?
25 A. You said the army of Serbia
1 Q. To the VRS. You donated fuel to the VRS?
2 A. No, not me. How could I?
3 Q. You also met regularly with President Karadzic in 1994 and 1995,
4 didn't you?
5 A. Not in 1994, but in 1991.
6 Q. So not in 1994?
7 A. From 1991 to 1996.
8 Q. You met with him regularly?
9 A. I don't know what you mean when you say regularly. We met in
10 1991 at pre-election rallies, and then in the course of the war,
11 sometimes he would pop over to my house, sometimes I would visit him in
12 Pale. That's how often we met. Those were our meetings.
13 Q. Okay. Well, we'll look at that more closely in a minute. I'd
14 just like to go back to this -- what you said at page 26 when I asked you
15 did you talk to General Mladic and General Perisic about the procurement
16 of fuel, and you said:
17 "Well, I did talk to them on friendly terms as a host, nothing to
18 do with the ... Main Staff and the military leadership. I mean, who was
19 I to talk to them about such things?"
20 MR. MITCHELL: So if we can have a look at 65 ter 4416, page 2 in
21 the English, page 1 in the B/C/S. I have a hard copy for the witness.
22 Perhaps I can just hand it straight it to him.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead.
24 MR. MITCHELL:
25 Q. This is a conversation dated the 21st of April, 1995
1 and it's between General Zivanovic and Zvonko Bajagic. I'd just like to
2 read out the first part of this intercept:
3 Zvonko, how are you?
4 "Don't ask.
5 "What is it?
6 "What can I tell you, not even Mladic was able do anything today.
7 "Why, what happened? The cargo did not go through?
9 "O, boy, what will happen now?
10 "I have almost gone crazy.
11 "So, nobody can transport it now?
12 "Well, Mladic cannot, and neither can Perisic, I spoke to them
13 three times today.
15 "Mladic called from our place, but that papa did not give a green
16 light. They have been been avoiding all contact, and we could see what
17 was going on.
18 "Is there any hope?
19 "There is hope, but they said after Sunday, and since it cannot
20 go through right now, we brought it all back.
21 "Of course, and did you right bringing it back; you wouldn't want
22 it to go to ruin, do you.
23 "It was very awkward, and I'm having a hard time with this, I
24 feel sick.
25 "All right. We will talk later, I understand everything, it is
1 clear to me."
2 So in this intercept, you said that you spoke with Mladic and
3 Perisic three times that day; correct? Let me take a step back. Do you
4 recall this conversation, sir?
5 A. I don't.
6 Q. Do you doubt that this intercept is correct?
7 A. I can say that it may have happened that I went and take over
8 some of the materiel and equipment, and then those could not be
9 transported across the Drina
10 socialised and we were on first-term basis. I may have called him; I may
11 have told him, Why did you give it to us if you don't allow us to take it
12 over the border? That may have been the gist of that conversation, I
14 Q. So you were talking to General Mladic and General Perisic about
15 bringing cargo in across the border?
16 A. I may have spoken to him about that cargo. Maybe they did not
17 allow the cargo to go through. Maybe that's why I called him to help me
18 have the cargo go through. That may well be the case.
19 Q. Do you recall what this cargo was?
20 A. I don't recall that, and it doesn't say here. There are all
21 sorts of cargos. I don't know which cargo is this particular one.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Let's take a look at 65 ter 4417.
23 Q. Sir, did you have a nickname during the war?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. And what was that?
1 A. Duga Puska. Translation: Long Rifle.
2 Q. Okay. Sir, so this an intercept dated the 7th of June, 1995, at
3 1005 hours between Zvonko Bajagic, aka Puska, from the Drina Corps
4 Command in Vlasenica and a certain Misko from Valjevo. So do you know
5 who Misko from Valjevo is?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. Do you recall the name Mitar Lazarevic?
8 A. If you could jog my memory if you know who he is. Could you
9 please jog my memory? I can't remember who that person is.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Since he suggested this, you can put a direct
11 question, a leading question.
12 MR. MITCHELL:
13 Q. Sir, our information is that Mitar Lazarevic was involved with a
14 transport company in Serbia
15 A. I really can't remember.
16 Q. Okay. If we look at the first part of this intercept. I'm not
17 going to read it all out, but we can see here that you are organising to
18 get 10 tonnes of petrol from Beopetrol in Belgrade, and it's to come
19 across the border before 2 a.m.
21 A. Well, there were several such transactions. I can't remember the
22 one that you are asking me about.
23 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. If we can go to the next page in English.
24 Q. And see here you say:
1 "How should the man return?
2 "Nothing. He will be escorted, and he will cross it tonight and
3 return tomorrow.
4 And M says something that wasn't picked up.
5 And: "It doesn't matter. It's not a problem. It has been
6 agreed upon at an upper level 01-01."
7 Who is 01?
8 A. 01 was General Mladic.
9 Q. You were saying 01 to 01. So who is General Mladic talking to?
10 A. Probably 01 is probably Perisic. Gvero was 04.
11 Q. Sir, we are seeing documents in this case from the Drina Corps
12 5th Engineering Battalion for the pontoon company, he's organising ferry
13 crossing points across the Drina
14 [phoen] and Sapotnik. Do you know what came across at those ferry
16 A. When I went to take over different means and equipment in Serbia
17 I never brought anything across the pontoon bridges. I don't know
18 anything about them or where they were. I transported everything across
19 the regular bridges, as it were.
20 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. One more intercept on this topic,
21 65 ter 411. That's page 3 in the English, page 2 in the B/C/S, just down
22 at the bottom of that page.
23 Q. This is an intercept dated the 8th of June, 1995, so the next
24 day. If you can just take a moment and read through it. Let me know
25 when you've finished.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Can we go to the next page in English.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to read from here?
3 MR. MITCHELL: Yes.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa.
5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we see the second page as
6 well. What we can see is only four lines of a conversation between
7 Basevic and Bajagic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm reading here is not my
9 dialect, if I can comment upon this. Well, I see on the second page,
10 this is not my dialect. This is not the way I speak. These are not my
11 words. I did not utter this. This was uttered by some Serbians who say
12 "brej" [phoen] which I never would.
13 MR. MITCHELL:
14 Q. Do you doubt the accuracy of this intercept or the authenticity
15 of this intercept?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Haynes.
17 MR. HAYNES: Well, there are three on that page. Which one is he
18 talking about?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, do you wish to comment on that?
20 MR. MITCHELL: The intercept we're talking about, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The one we see on the screen now, in other words?
22 That's the second page?
23 MR. MITCHELL: It started off at page 2 in the B/C/S and went
24 over onto page 3. It's the only one with his name on it.
25 MR. HAYNES: Well, I don't actually recall the witness being
1 directed to any particular intercept. On page 2, there were three
2 separate intercepts.
3 MR. MITCHELL: He's got a hard copy.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay --
5 MR. HAYNES: Tell him to read the bottom of page 2 over to page 3
6 and then ask him for his comment.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with the first page, please.
8 JUDGE KWON: Second.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but the first page, what I mean is page 2
10 where the intercept starts. So, Mr. Mitchell.
11 MR. MITCHELL: It's the intercept down the bottom of the second
12 page, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Which starts at the bottom in both languages?
14 MR. MITCHELL: Correct, and then goes on to the next page.
15 Q. Mr. Bajagic, it might be more helpful if you just look at the
16 screen instead of the hard copy.
17 Now, is this the intercept that you said you didn't think was
18 your dialect?
19 A. It's not me. I use different words. I use a different dialect.
20 I don't use the words that I read here. I can see the word "cretin,"
21 which is not part of my vocabulary. What I did was honest, was lawful.
22 I never smuggled any cigars or cigarettes like I can read here. Those
23 were some thiefs.
24 Q. Sir, what about the first intercept that we talked about this
25 morning, the one from 1991 between you and Radovan Karadzic. Was that
1 you on that intercept?
2 A. Yes. When we were talking about the lunch that had to be
3 prepared before the lining up of the battalion in Milici; is that what
4 you're referring to?
5 Q. That's right. That was you on that intercept? Okay.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. I'd like to go back to something else you said just after the
8 break, and I asked you:
9 "There were occasions where you donated fuel personally to the
10 VRS ..."
11 And you said:
12 "No, not me. How could I?"
13 MR. MITCHELL: If we can look at 65 ter 4415.
14 Q. That is Drina Corps report dated 29 November 1994, listing the
15 amounts of fuel received from municipalities, enterprises, and donators
16 in the period from the 1st of September to the 15th of November, 1994
17 If we can go over to the second page. About halfway down the page, we
18 see your name.
19 MR. MITCHELL: If we can blow that up a little bit.
20 Q. Can you see your name there, sir? It's 1, 2, 3, 4 from the
22 A. I can.
23 Q. And it says that in October 1994, Zvonko Bajagic from Vlasenica
24 donated 8.270 litres of D2 diesel and 14.690 litres of petrol to the
1 of fuel to the Drina Corps?
2 A. Well, it could have been some company or some private persons who
3 donated that, and maybe I took the quantities over and brought them back,
4 but it's really beyond my comprehension that you could think that I was
5 in a position to donate those quantities of fuel to anybody.
6 Q. So this document which went to the Main Staff is mistaken?
7 A. A hundred per cent.
8 Q. I have one other thing I'd like to ask you about before we get to
9 1995. Now, sir, you said -- I asked you whether you met regularly with
10 President Karadzic, and you said sometimes he would pop over to your
11 house, sometimes you would visit him in Pale. "That's how often we met.
12 Those were our meetings."
13 Whereabouts in Pale did you meet?
14 A. Sometime in his office, sometime in his house.
15 Q. Can you give us a rough idea of how often? Once a month, once
16 every six months?
17 A. It was not very often, from time to time; it all depended. When
18 he needed to see me or wanted to see me, he would call me and he would
19 say, Can you come over, have lunch or dinner. That's what it all boiled
20 down to. It was not that often. There were some official visits
21 regarding the civilian authorities in Vlasenica, and so on and so forth.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. If we can look at 65 ter 4413. If we can
23 go to page 25 in the B/C/S and page 16 in the English.
24 Q. Sir, this is President Karadzic's appointment diary from 1994,
25 which was picked up during his arrest last year. Now, this is the entry
1 for the 25th of February, 1994, and the fourth name down is
2 Zvonko Bajagic. That's you; correct?
3 A. Yes, I can see that, and yes, this is my name.
4 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. If we go to page 18 in the English, page 29
5 in the B/C/S. If we can scroll down in the English.
6 Q. We can see your name again there, can't we, sir?
7 A. Yes, we can. I can.
8 Q. So you met with President Karadzic on these two dates; correct?
9 A. I can't remember. I can't remember either the days or the times.
10 It may have happened this way. It was a long time ago.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...interview the secretaries,
12 and they say that that plus sign is an indication that you came. So you
13 must have met with the president on those days; correct?
14 A. Well, if it's recorded in his notebook, then I must have been
15 there, but I can't remember. It was such a long time ago. I don't have
16 the recollection of the event.
17 Q. Well, sir, if we went through this diary page by page, your name
18 would be there I believe 18 times. That's an average of more than once a
19 month, isn't it? We're talking just about 1994 here.
20 A. What are you saying? I don't know. It's nothing.
21 Q. Sir, I'm saying that you met with President Karadzic 18 times in
22 1994, and that's an average of more than once a month, isn't it?
23 A. If that's what it says in there, then it's correct.
24 Q. So how is it that a clerk from the Drina Corps logistics organ is
25 meeting with the president that regularly?
1 A. I told you that I met Radovan the first time in 1991, during the
2 election campaign at rallies. My great grandfather, late Bozo Bajagic,
3 who was actually not my grandfather but my grandfather's first cousin,
4 was living in Niksic and was neighbours with late Vuko Bajagic [as
5 interpreted], Radovan Karadzic's father. They were very good friends.
6 And when I went to Niksic as a child and as a student or a teenager, as
7 the popular word has it nowadays, I really liked to go to Vuk's house
8 with my late grandfather Bozo, and I would listen to them speaking in a
9 very nice way, and I particularly liked listening to Radovan's late
11 Q. Sir, my question was --
12 A. May I finish, please.
13 Q. Certainly.
14 A. I did not know Radovan. I just knew he was Vuko's son. I mean,
15 I didn't know him until 1991, and he knew that I was Bozo, and he knew
16 that I was related to his father's friend. And when we first met, he
17 asked me, Are you the one? And I said yes, and then this acquaintance
18 turned into a friendship.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Sarapa.
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] On page 36 in line 8, it says
21 Vuko Bajagic, Radovan's father. It must be a mistake.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Vuk Karadzic.
23 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, but what we have in the record
24 now is Vuko Bajagic. It has to be corrected.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Let's proceed.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. So these are all just family, friendly visits with President
4 A. Mostly, mostly. They were friendly family visits. There were
5 some private calls on him at his home, I don't know if that's recorded
6 anywhere, whether the 18 visits that year include those.
7 Q. When you say "mostly," sir, does that mean that there were some
8 business meetings, as well, or it's all just friendly meetings?
9 A. There were some official talks as well.
10 Q. That was my previous question, sir. What is a clerk from the
11 Drina Corps logistics section doing meeting the president on business?
12 A. That had nothing to do with the army. I mentioned before, it had
13 to do with some civilian issues regarding our municipality, our area,
14 humanitarian aid, accommodation of refugees, this sentiment among the
15 people, the talks, et cetera.
16 Q. In what capacity were you meeting him?
17 A. Well, you see when our chief, the president of the municipality,
18 needed to see Radovan officially, he would always ask me, saying, Zvonko,
19 please, can you come with me? You know when you are with me, it's easier
20 to get through. There's always a long line of people. I get to see
21 Radovan more easily when you are with me. But it's all based on that
22 friendship and mutual respect.
23 Q. So who was there when you met with the president on business?
24 A. Well, whoever I went with. Sometimes I would leave them there to
25 talk. I would go out. I have a relative at Pale. I would go and visit
1 that relative, have coffee with him, until they are finished.
2 Q. And who was the president of the municipality who you mentioned a
3 moment ago?
4 A. In Vlasenica, three of them changed during the war.
5 Q. And who --
6 A. Maybe even four.
7 Q. Can you tell us their names?
8 A. At first, it was Milorad Lukic. He was the first one. Wait a
9 minute. Then there was Vojo Mitrovic, that's two; Milan Gostanic
10 [phoen], three; and afterwards, it was Dr. -- what is his name.
11 Q. Rajko Djukic?
12 A. What did you say?
13 Q. Rajko Djukic?
14 A. Rajko Djukic, no. No. You mean Rajko Dukic? There was no
15 Djukic, D-j-u. I don't even know a Djukic. There was
16 Ostoja Dragutinovic, I now remember, Ostoja Dragutinovic, but that was
17 after the war.
18 Q. Who is Rajko Dukic?
19 A. Director of the bauxite company in Milici, but that's another
21 MR. MITCHELL: If I can have a moment, Mr. President.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
24 Q. Sir, I'd like to turn to a different area now, and that's your
25 meetings with Mr. Pandurevic's Defence team.
1 When did you first speak with someone from Mr. Pandurevic's
2 Defence team?
3 A. The first I heard from them was when I got a telephone call from
4 a lawyer by the name of Rubes in early December 2007.
5 Q. Sir, did you know Mr. Rubes from during the war when you were a
6 member of the Drina Corps?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. What was his position in July 1995?
9 A. I don't know about his position, but he was -- I think he was in
10 the command of the Drina Corps. He was.
11 Q. He was an administrator in the Drina Corps legal department,
12 wasn't he?
13 A. Maybe.
14 Q. Okay. So the first contact you had was a telephone call from
15 Mr. Rubes in December 2007. Tell us about that telephone conversation.
16 A. He called me on the phone and asked me if he could drop by
17 together with a lawyer from the Defence team of General Pandurevic. They
18 [as interpreted] wanted to talk to me.
19 Q. Did they say what they wanted to talk --
20 A. I said okay.
21 Q. Did they tell you what they wanted to talk with you about?
22 A. Not on the phone.
23 Q. Okay. So when did you meet with them?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Sarapa.
25 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] It was misinterpreted a moment ago
1 when the witness said that he talked on the phone when Rubes called. The
2 interpretation seems to imply that they talked on the phone in plural.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: What did the witness say according to you?
4 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] The witness said that the
5 investigator, lawyer Rubes, called him, saying that a defence lawyer
6 wanted to speak to him. And then the Prosecution asked, What did they
7 talk to you about, whereas the witness had said that Rubes spoke to him
8 alone, not two people.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. Is that clear in your mind,
10 Mr. Mitchell?
11 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed, then. Thank you. Thank you,
13 Mr. Sarapa.
14 MR. MITCHELL:
15 Q. Sir, after this telephone conversation with Mr. Rubes, you then
16 met with people from General Pandurevic's Defence team; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who was at that meeting?
19 A. Lawyer Rubes and lawyer Djordje and myself.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If you look at line 20, Mr. Mitchell, you see
21 that your question doesn't show up in the transcript.
22 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, if you could kindly repeat it,
24 please. Thank you.
25 MR. MITCHELL:
1 Q. Sir, I asked you, who was present at that meeting? And you
3 "Lawyer Rubes and lawyer Djordje and myself."
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was Mr. Sarapa taking notes during this meeting?
7 A. When they came, Sarapa asked me about the dinner I had prepared
8 in Bratunac, and I told him, and I signed the record in my statement.
9 Q. What precisely did he ask you, sir?
10 A. He asked me if I remembered carrying that dinner to Bratunac. I
11 said yes. He asked me, Do you remember when you brought that dinner? I
12 said yes, because it had to do with the patron saint's day, which I
13 hosted, and because I prepared meat-free food for the St. Peter's Day's
14 fast, and the next day we ate meat. And that dinner, I brought it on the
15 eve of St. Peter's Day on the 11th, the night of the 11th to Bratunac.
16 Q. So you didn't need any time to refresh your recollection about
17 these -- you just remembered and told him during that first meeting?
18 A. I'm not good with dates, and I'm even worse with names. And when
19 he said that my household said that -- had more than 172 godchildren,
20 baptised godchildren, I had difficulty believing that. But when church
21 holidays are concerned and church dates, I remember all that perfectly.
22 That's why this is etched in my memory.
23 Q. Sir, have you ever spoken to Vinko Pandurevic about this dinner?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What about Milenko Jevdjevic? Have you spoken with him?
1 A. No, no.
2 Q. How many times in total have you met with a representative from
3 Mr. Pandurevic's Defence team?
4 A. Later in April, Rubes called on me, but that was the next year,
5 2008. And I signed that record, and the following day I went to Zvornik
6 to have that record certified at the office of a notary public in
7 Zvornik. That's where I signed.
8 Q. Just going back to that first meeting for a moment, who first
9 brought up the topic of the dinner?
10 A. Sarapa. He asked me if I took that dinner there. I did, and I
11 asked, Why is this interesting? And he says, Would you testify for
12 Vinko; he suggested you as a witness, and would you testify that you did
13 indeed carry that dinner? And I said yes.
14 Q. So Mr. Pandurevic suggested you as a witness?
15 A. That's what the lawyer told me.
16 Q. Sir, did you follow the trial of General Krstic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You know that General Krstic also said that this meeting was on
19 the night of the 11th, or this dinner was on the night of 11 July?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Did you ever speak with General Krstic's Defence?
22 A. I don't even know who his Defence are.
23 Q. Okay. Let's talk about July 1995 now, and I'd like to go through
24 a couple of days either side of this dinner with you and get you to
25 briefly explain to the Court what you were doing on each of those days.
1 So if we can start off with the day before you went to this dinner in
2 Bratunac. Can you tell the Court what you were doing on that day?
3 A. That day or the day before?
4 Q. The day before the dinner,
5 A. I went to Loznica to buy the fish. That's in Serbia.
6 Q. Sir, you told us that you got an order from Colonel Acamovic on
7 the afternoon of the dinner. Why did you go and buy the fish the day
9 A. Because you can't buy fish anywhere closer than Serbia. We all
10 went to buy fish there. I mean, it needed to be fresh, and we needed a
11 lot of it for a lot of people.
12 Q. Why did you buy fish?
13 A. Because I told you, this is St. Peter's Day fast that takes 14
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It has been explained and explained already. Thank
17 MR. MITCHELL:
18 Q. Sir, you were in the Drina Corps logistics organ. You must have
19 been aware that the VRS was involved in a major operation around the
20 Srebrenica enclave on that day; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you tell us what happened militarily that day?
23 A. Which day?
24 Q. The day before the dinner. We're still talking about the same
1 A. The 10th?
2 Q. The day before the dinner.
3 A. I don't know. I don't know. I went to Loznica to buy the fish.
4 Then I was at home cooking.
5 Q. Had Srebrenica fallen on the day that you went to buy the fish?
6 A. Colonel Acamovic told me when he called me in the afternoon of
7 the 11th around 5.00 p.m.
8 entered Srebrenica. That's the first I heard of it.
9 Q. Did he tell you that they had taken over the entire enclave?
10 A. No. He just said that the army had entered Srebrenica.
11 Q. So you already had the fish by the time the VRS entered
12 Srebrenica; correct?
13 A. I bought the fish on the 10th, and I heard the news towards the
14 evening on the 11th.
15 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the day of the dinner. What did you do
16 that day, in the morning?
17 A. Well, the preparations for that dinner, that meat-free dinner,
18 had started, and I had guests at my home, and this lean dinner was served
19 at my home. And at the same time, we were roasting suckling pigs and
20 lamb for the next day. That's what we were doing on the 11th.
21 Q. Sir, this was a massive logistical operation around Srebrenica,
22 and you're on the logistics organ. How is it that you are at home in the
23 middle of all this, cooking food?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. How is this possible?
1 A. What have I got to do with the operation? I'm not a soldier in
2 the battle-field. I just went to buy supplies. Whenever I had orders, I
3 went to pick up the goods wherever and bring them to the depot of the
4 corps, and especially on the 12th. I don't know if you understood it,
5 but I said that I was a sponsor of the church, the sponsor of the
6 luncheon, and the host at this celebration of St. Peter's Day for
7 Vlasenica. I had over 1.000 guests the next day for the luncheon at the
8 hotel, not at my home. Vasilije Kacevanola was the guest of honour to
9 break the cake with us as the custom requires.
10 Q. Okay. What time did you leave Vlasenica to go to Bratunac?
11 A. Around half past 8.00 is the time when I left to bring the food.
12 I told Acamovic I couldn't do it any earlier. He asked me when I could
13 do and I said, Lazar, I'm sorry. I can't do it before half past 8.00. I
14 have things to do. And he said, Okay, do it when you can.
15 Q. What type of car did you drive?
16 A. A Golf. My own Golf.
17 Q. Do you remember the registration plates?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you put any fuel in the car before you left?
20 A. No. The car was full, I think.
21 Q. Was anyone with you?
22 A. My older son.
23 Q. What about Zoran Sekulic? Was he with you?
24 A. Possibly. I don't know whether he was. He sometimes drove me.
25 He was a driver in the brigade, not in the corps, and sometimes he would
1 drive me. And at that particular occasion, I don't know if it was me and
2 my son -- it is possible that that person, the driver went with us.
3 Q. What about Stevan Stevanovic? Did he go with you?
4 A. I don't think so, not on that occasion, no.
5 Q. What about Mile Kosoric?
6 A. Mile Kosoric was the brigade commander. How would you expect him
7 to come with me?
8 Q. Okay. What route did you take?
9 A. Vlasenica, Milici, Konjevic Polje, Bratunac.
10 Q. And what time did you reach Bratunac?
11 A. It took us slightly less than an hour to get there.
12 Q. Did you see any Muslims on the way? Any Muslim men?
13 A. No, there was only a police patrol in Konjevic Polje. It was
14 already late in the afternoon. There was a police patrol in
15 Konjevic Polje, and then there was another one in Kravica, I believe.
16 Q. Did you see the MUP police stationed along the road, the
17 Konjevic Polje-Bratunac Road, every hundred, metres or so?
18 A. I don't remember. I didn't notice any such thing. I remember
19 having seen a patrol. I remember that a hundred per cent, and I also
20 remember the other one in Kravica.
21 Q. So we've heard evidence in this case that before the fish dinner,
22 there was a meeting at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters that was
23 attended by General Mladic, General Krstic, Vinko Pandurevic,
24 Radomir Furtula, Milenko Jevdzevic, Mirko Trivic, and others. What do
25 you know about this meeting?
1 A. When I arrived, we brought the dinner. There were some soldiers
2 on duty there. I reported to them, and I said to them, I brought dinner.
3 Where am I to serve it, in which room? Then we went to that room. We
4 left. Before we did that, we laid the table. Then I wanted to return,
5 but then I was asked to wait for some five or ten minutes more, and some
6 officers appeared after they had ended the meeting. I greeted Mladic.
7 He thanked me for having brought the dinner. I also said hello to
8 Krstic, and then I went home. I had guests in my own house. I couldn't
9 stay any longer. I was rushed to go back.
10 Q. Was the dinner in a different room from the meeting?
11 A. In a different room, yes. We laid a table, and we served dinner
12 in a different room. I don't know whether they actually had the dinner
13 where we left it or whether they took the food somewhere else after we
14 left. I wouldn't know that.
15 Q. So was the fish on the table when they came into the dinner, or
16 did you go into the meeting room with the fish?
17 A. We served the fish on oval plates in that room, and we left some
18 wine and some brandy there, and I met with all of them in the corridor
19 after I had laid the food on the table in that room. I greeted them, and
20 then I left. I went home.
21 Q. So you didn't walk into the meeting with the fish?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you've had a lot of time to think about this dinner.
24 Can you tell us who was there?
25 A. I don't know who actually attended dinner. I only saw them in
1 the corridor as they were leaving the meeting room, and I told you that I
2 said hello to Mladic and Krstic. I also saw Jevdjevic, and I saw Vinko
3 as well.
4 Q. What about Mirko Trivic?
5 A. I don't remember. I didn't -- no, I don't remember who else was
7 Q. Did you see General Zivanovic?
8 A. I don't remember. No, I didn't, no. What do you mean? What are
9 we talking about? You said that I mentioned him that evening?
10 Q. No, sir. You said you saw these officers come out of the meeting
11 room and you saw them in the corridor, and I'm trying to get you to tell
12 us which officers you saw in the corridor. Did you see General Zivanovic
13 in the corridor?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I notice Mr. Sarapa standing.
15 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] The witness did not say the officers
16 leaving the meeting room. He said that he saw them in the corridor once
17 they had all come from the meeting.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But I think -- let's proceed anyway. I'm
19 happy with what we had in the transcript in any case. Mr. Mitchell.
20 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. So besides General Mladic, General Krstic, Milenko Jevdjevic, and
22 Vinko Pandurevic, you don't recall who else was there, who else you saw
23 in the corridor?
24 A. No, I don't. No.
25 Q. Now, you said that you left Bratunac that night and went back
1 home; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see the buses and trucks in Bratunac that night?
4 A. I did not. It was already dark. It was night, and before the
5 gate of the command did not see anything. The command is at the entrance
6 to Bratunac. I never entered the town itself. And the command building
7 is actually on the main road. You turn left, and you leave Bratunac.
8 Q. What about the next day? What did you do the day after the
10 A. Around 8.00 the following day, I went to church. The liturgy
11 started at 9.00. I went there early to prepare everything in the church,
12 to have a word with the priest and discuss the protocol because the
13 Episcope Vasilije was coming, and on that day the liturgy is a festive
14 one different to the one served by a common priest.
15 Q. What time was the dinner that you --
16 A. I did not finish my answer. You asked me about the whole day,
17 and I only told you about the morning, I beg your pardon.
18 Q. Please go on.
19 A. Shall I continue, then?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. And the service in church lasted until about one hour because
22 after the liturgy we had a procession through the town. Church icons and
23 standards are brought out of the church, and everybody who attended the
24 mass in the church walk behind the icons and standards. They walked in a
25 circle in one part of the town, and then we returned to the church. Then
1 the celebration cake or the festive cake is broken in the church, and
2 after that we went to have lunch in the hotel, and General Zivanovic also
3 attended that lunch in the hotel.
4 Q. What time was that lunch?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.
6 MR. MITCHELL:
7 Q. What time was that lunch?
8 A. I remember that the church service ended around 1.00, and after
9 1.00 we went to the hotel, and we stayed there until midnight. We were
10 sitting in the hotel socialising. We were singing. The atmosphere was
11 very festive.
12 Q. Did you see buses go through the middle of Vlasenica that day,
13 buses full of Muslims?
14 A. No, not in the morning. My house is on the road, and I didn't
15 see anybody passing by it. The church is in the very centre of the town.
16 I didn't see anything there, and then we went to the hotel, and there was
17 nothing going on around the hotel.
18 Q. Okay. What about the following day? What did you do that day?
19 Just briefly.
20 A. On the following day, it was a -- everybody was hung over. Some
21 people had breakfast, those who overnighted at the hotel, and then we
22 continued socialising until noon
23 but we were pretty much hung over from all the brandy that we had the
24 previous day. We saw our guests off, we tidied up the hotel, and then
25 the waiters and the cooks who had served us the day before joined us the
1 following day for a bit of socialising, and then they shared the
2 leftovers with us. It's a good thing to do. You are not supposed to
3 throw leftovers. It's better to eat them.
4 Q. Did you go anywhere that day? Did you leave Vlasenica?
5 A. I can't remember. Either on that day or on the following day I
6 went to Srebrenica, but I can't remember exactly when.
7 Q. And what was your purpose in going to Srebrenica?
8 A. My best man and I went there, out of curiosity. We wanted to see
9 what Srebrenica looked like from inside.
10 Q. And what did you see there?
11 A. The town was deserted. It was empty. It looked ghastly. All
12 the buildings were covered with smoke, and there were logs and woods on
13 the roads, and there were some elderly people roaming around the town.
14 There were some soldiers as well. That's what I saw.
15 Q. Did you go to Potocari?
16 A. I passed through Potocari, yes.
17 Q. And what did you see there?
18 A. There were people in Potocari. On both sides of the road were
19 soldiers and police and UNPROFOR soldiers and people. Yes, I did pass
20 through there.
21 Q. Did you see any VRS officers there?
22 A. No. I did not stay any time there. I just passed through.
23 Q. Did you see Muslims there? Is that the people you were
24 describing on either side of the road?
25 A. Yes. Muslims in Potocari, yes.
1 Q. Were there buses there?
2 A. At that time?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Yes, there were.
5 Q. And what was happening? Were the Muslims being put on the buses?
6 A. As we were passing through, I could see people getting on the buses.
7 Q. Could you see the men being separated from their families before
8 they were getting on the buses?
9 A. No. We slowed down. We moved slowly. We passed by and we looked.
10 I did look at the people, but I did not see anyone being separated.
11 I did not see it there.
12 Q. You said you went there with your best man. Can you give us his
14 A. Stevan Stevanovic. You mentioned him just a minute ago as a
16 Q. You took the same car that you took to Bratunac, the Golf?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. What about the day after you went to Srebrenica? Did you
19 go anywhere that day?
20 A. No, I didn't go anywhere. I stayed in Vlasenica.
21 Q. You didn't go to Pale?
22 A. I did go, but I don't know whether it was on that day or the day
23 after. I know that I went to Pale for a day, but I don't know which day
24 it was.
25 Q. What did you go there for?
1 A. I went to see President Karadzic.
2 Q. For what purpose?
3 A. Because on the following day they took all the people somewhere.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed a word, but I believe
5 that it was Kladanj.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That people were taken to Kladanj,
7 and that's what I asked President Karadzic about. I asked him who those
8 people were and where they were taken.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: You mentioned a place. Did you mention Kladanj?
10 Was it Kladanj?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, people were driven in the
12 direction of Kladanj. That's what I mentioned.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 MR. MITCHELL:
15 Q. Which people?
16 A. What? What are you referring to? What people?
17 Q. Sir, you said people were driven in the direction of Kladanj.
18 I'm asking you which people are you talking about?
19 A. Well, Muslims in the buses, the Muslim population.
20 Q. The Muslim population from where?
21 A. Probably from Potocari or Srebrenica. Those people, they were
22 all brought and taken from there.
23 Q. So you went to ask President Karadzic about these people, the
24 Muslims being taken from Srebrenica to Kladanj. What did he say?
25 A. Yes. He was fuming with rage. He was very angry. He was in no
1 mood to talk about anything. He told me, Puska, go home, mind your own
2 business. I never saw him so angry. Never before.
3 Q. Is that all he said?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was he angry about?
6 A. How should I know? He was angry. I've never seen him so angry
8 Q. And how long did this meeting last for?
9 A. A minute.
10 Q. Can you recall what time of day it was?
11 A. In the evening or late afternoon.
12 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Can we please go to 65 ter 4409.
13 May I have a moment, Mr. President.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. MITCHELL:
16 Q. Sir, this is a document dated the 20th of November, 1992
17 can read it there:
18 "Upon evident necessity and in order to ensure preconditions for
19 the implementation of official tasks for the needs of Military Post 7111
20 Han Pijesak, I order to hand over to Zvonko Bajagic passenger vehicle
21 VW Golf, registration number P7105."
22 Is that your car, sir?
23 A. That was the car I had originally, and it was stolen from me in
24 Sabac; that's in Serbia
25 registration plates were changed into military registration plates.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Can we please look at 65 ter 4418.
2 Q. Sir, this is a vehicle log for VW Golf with the registration
3 plates P7105 for July 1995, and you are the first name on there; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Sir, I have the original here. This might be easier for you to
6 look at.
7 Now, according to this vehicle log, it was refueled with 45
8 litres of fuel on the 12th of July. Did you refuel this car with 45
9 litres of fuel on the 12th of July?
10 A. It wasn't me. I'm sure.
11 Q. Is that your signature on the line that says 12 July?
12 A. No, it isn't. No, none of the signatures is mine.
13 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Let's look at a couple of other documents
14 that might help refresh your recollection. Can we go to 65 ter 4419.
15 Mr. President, it's break time. We might be able to do this
17 JUDGE AGIUS: How much longer do you reckon you'll be putting
18 questions, Mr. Mitchell?
19 MR. MITCHELL: It's taken longer than I expected, Your Honour.
20 It could be -- I will finish today, but it could be most of the last
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 25 minutes.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Mitchell. Let's try to conclude, please.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Sir, we were talking about the refueling of your car with
3 45 litres of fuel on the 12th of July, and you said that it wasn't you.
4 So I'd like to show you a couple of documents to help refresh your
6 MR. MITCHELL: If we can go to 65 ter 4419.
7 Q. Sir, this is an authorisation to refuel a vehicle with the
8 registration plates P7105 with 45 litres of fuel. It's authorising to
9 you refuel that car. It's dated the 13th of July. Can you tell us why
10 the vehicle log would say 12 July but the authorisation says 13 July?
11 A. Well, you saw earlier that I did not receive it, didn't sign for
12 it, and I have no idea. I see my name is written here, but where did I
13 sign? You must have my signature somewhere so you can compare.
14 Q. Whose signature is that?
15 A. How would I know?
16 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Can we please look at 65 ter 4420.
17 Q. This is the Drina Corps fuel distribution list from 10 to
18 13 July. You can see the very last entry on the page, 45 litres of fuel;
19 that same vehicle, P7105; Zvonko Bajagic; and your signature underneath.
20 A. This is not my signature. Somebody forged this. It's obvious
21 that it's not mine.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. MITCHELL: If we can go back to 65 ter 4418, the vehicle log.
24 If we can go to page 2 in both the B/C/S and the English.
25 Q. Now, sir, that's a trip. If we look at the entry on the
1 13th of July: Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Vlasenica. That's your trip to
2 Srebrenica that you told us about; correct?
3 A. I see there must be some confusion here. This is a military
4 vehicle. I saw there in the order the name Mile Kosoric, commander of
5 the brigade, and Sekulic and I; and I told you earlier I also had my own
6 private car, and I never poured military fuel in my private car. That's
7 the confusion. Out of the three persons mentioned there, one must have
8 tanked up in my name.
9 Q. Sir, we saw your name on the front of this vehicle log. Is that
10 or is that not your trip to Srebrenica on the 13th of July?
11 A. I went in my own car. I told you that.
12 Q. Sir, this is not the car you went in; is that your testimony?
13 A. Yes. Yes, I did not go in that vehicle, and I did not take any
14 fuel. I did not take petrol.
15 Q. So it's just a mistake that this vehicle log lists a trip to
16 Srebrenica on the day you said you went there and you signed -- there's a
17 fuel authorisation for 45 litres in your name. You don't know anything
18 about that?
19 A. Let us see who signed that. Let's compare my signature and the
20 signature on that paper. It's not mine, and you can see all the people
21 who are authorised to use this vehicle.
22 Q. So we can see there's also a trip on the 14th of July:
23 Vlasenica, Pal, Vlasenica, Loko. Now, you told us that you went to see
24 President Karadzic around this time; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you take this vehicle?
2 A. On that day, yes.
3 Q. So you took it on the 14th, but you didn't take it on the 13th?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Sir, you might want to have a look at the original here. The
6 handwriting on the 13th and 14th is almost identical.
7 A. I can see that, but I did not fill in any orders or logs.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mitchell, can you ask the witness to read the
9 route again for me.
10 MR. MITCHELL: On the 14th, Judge Kwon?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 MR. MITCHELL:
13 Q. Mr. Bajagic, can you please have a look at the vehicle log and
14 read out the route --
15 JUDGE KWON: Or we may zoom up a little bit.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that. Do you want me to
17 write it all down the way it's written here and then you can compare?
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you read the route which is written on the
19 date of 14th July.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vlasenica, Pal, Vlasenica, Loko.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Did you say Pale?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pal. It's actually written P-a-l,
23 like, short for Pale, or it could be Vlasenica Loko, Vlasenica Loko, one
24 of the two. No, no, this is not Pale either.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: My attention has been drawn that Mr. Pandurevic
1 would like to consult his counsel. Yes, so Mr. Sarapa, I suppose you are
2 the only one who can approach him.
3 Mr. Sarapa, I understand that your client wishes to have a word
4 with his Defence team. Since you speak the language, I suggest that you
5 either approach him or you go somewhere and see what he needs.
6 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] We can talk here.
7 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need to consult with Mr. Haynes, Mr. Sarapa,
9 or not?
10 MR. HAYNES: Not now.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Not now. All right. Okay. Thank you. It may be
12 too late afterwards. Let's continue.
13 Mr. Mitchell.
14 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Can we please go to 65 ter 3876, page 41 in the English and
16 page 91 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. Sir, this is Radovan Karadzic's appointment diary for 1995, which
18 was obtained when he was arrested last year. On 14 July, we can see two
19 entries with your name. The first is call Zvonko Bajagic, and the second
20 is a meeting between you and President Karadzic between 12.35 a.m. on the
21 morning of the 15th and 1.25 a.m. Earlier, you told us that you met with
22 the president for about a minute. That's a 50-minute meeting, isn't it,
24 A. Which day?
25 Q. The last entry on the 14th.
1 MR. MITCHELL: Sorry, we need to scroll down. The last entry on
2 that page.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.
4 MR. MITCHELL:
5 Q. Sir, my question was, earlier today you testified that when you
6 met with President Karadzic he was very angry, and you stayed there for
7 about a minute.
8 A. That was the evening of the 13th, and this is the 14th.
9 Q. Sir, you told us, you testified under oath that you went to Pale
10 the following day after the day that you went to Srebrenica. You went so
11 Srebrenica on the 13th; you went to Pale on the 14th. This is what
12 President Karadzic's appointment diary says on the 14th.
13 A. When you asked me the next day, I thought the next day after the
14 patron saints day, which would be the 13th, and this is the 14th, because
15 my sighting of those buses taking people somewhere was on the 13th, as I
16 have already said.
17 Q. Sir, when we were talking about the 13th, I asked you did you see
18 any buses, and you told me that your house was on the main road and that
19 you -- you didn't see any buses.
20 A. I didn't see any on the 12th. On the patron saint's day, I
21 didn't see any. That's what I said.
22 Q. Sir, did you meet with President Karadzic at any other point in
23 July 1995?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When?
1 A. I think I was there that night, as you see written here.
2 Q. Did you meet with him on any additional occasions apart from this
3 meeting that we can see on the 14th?
4 A. I can't remember. Maybe, if you remind me.
5 MR. MITCHELL: Can we please go to page 38 in the English,
6 page 85 in the B/C/S.
7 Q. On the 3rd of July, we can see at 1400 hours Zvonko Bajagic, he
8 left, and there's little minus sign at the start of that, at the start of
9 that entry. So that means that you went to Pale but you didn't actually
10 get to meet with the president; is that correct?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Well, let's go to page 44 in the English,
13 page 100 in the B/C/S.
14 Q. And we're looking at the entry under 31 July.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to scroll it down, I think. Yes.
16 MR. MITCHELL:
17 Q. Zvonko Bajagic meeting with President Karadzic for two and a half
18 hours. Do you recall what that meeting was about?
19 A. I don't remember, really. On the 31st, I don't know.
20 Q. Well, that's just after the Muslim population has been bussed out
21 of the Zepa enclave. Did you talk to him about that?
22 A. No. On the 31st, no. I don't know anything about Zepa, when
23 people were taken away or anything. I don't know where they were taken
25 Q. But you can't recall what you spoke with him about for two and a
1 half hours?
2 A. I can't.
3 MR. MITCHELL: If we can go back to 65 ter 4418. It's page 2 in
4 the English and page 2 in the B/C/S. If we can blow that up again, those
5 trips on the 13th and the 14th.
6 Q. Sir, you'll agree with me that there's no trip recorded in this
7 vehicle log for the 11th of July, 1995, is there?
8 A. What do you mean? I don't understand the question.
9 Q. There's no trip recorded in this vehicle log for the 11th of
10 July, is there?
11 A. I can see there's no record.
12 Q. Sir, I'd like to suggest to you that you did fill out this car
13 with 45 litres of fuel on the night of 12th July, as the front of the
14 vehicle log indicates, right before you left for this dinner in Bratunac;
15 and on 13 July you went to Srebrenica, returned to Vlasenica where the
16 vehicle log and the fuel authorisations were filled out; then on 14 July,
17 you went to Pale, and you met with President Karadzic for 50 minutes as
18 we saw in his appointment diary. So isn't this really what happened on
19 the 12th, 13th, and 14th of July, 1995?
20 A. Could you break that question into three short ones.
21 Q. Sir, I think we've been through this in a lot of detail over the
22 last couple of hours.
23 A. What did you mean to ask me a moment ago?
24 Q. Sir, I'm suggesting to you that you did fill up this car on the
25 night of 12 July on your way to this dinner at Bratunac. The next day,
1 you go to Srebrenica; then you return to Vlasenica where those fuel
2 documents were filled out. Then I'm suggesting that on the 14th of July,
3 you took this vehicle to Pale and you met with the president, and we saw
5 A. Slowly. Let's take things at a time. Now you are saying that I
6 brought that dinner on the 12th? Give me a document to say that I
7 signed, and I will tell you that I didn't. I gave you my answer already.
8 The dinner was on the 11th. You are mixing things. That car could have
9 been driven by anybody, whoever came to take it. You can see that there
10 are three names on the travel log for that day. You can see the names of
11 the people who were allowed to drive the car. I'm offering to show you
12 how I sign my name. I'm offering to show you my signature so you can
13 compare what you see before you and my signature.
14 Q. Sir, the authorisations for 45 litres of fuel were made out in
15 your name; correct?
16 A. I've seen that, yes.
17 Q. Sir, it's the Prosecution's position that we've proven beyond a
18 reasonable doubt that this meeting and the dinner at the Bratunac Brigade
19 headquarters happened on the evening of the 12th of July, and that you
20 are not telling the truth as you sit here today.
21 A. You say what you want. How could it have been on the 12th? On
22 the 12th was the day when you were supposed to eat meat. This would be
23 like not eating meat on Christmas or asking me if I eat meat at Christmas
24 or not, if I eat fish at Christmas.
25 Q. Sir, let me confirm something you said earlier. You told us
1 about a big celebration at Vlasenica where there was over a thousand
2 people there.
3 A. I didn't not say a thousand. No, sir. I said that there were
4 about 200 guests at the dinner. There were about 200 people on the day.
5 On the eve of St. Peter's Day, there were about 40 people; and on St.
6 Peter's Day, there were about 200 invited guests.
7 Q. Okay. And this big party, this big gathering in Vlasenica was
8 the day after you took the fish to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters;
10 A. Are you understanding me when I say the 11th and -- when I say
11 the 11th? The 11th is on the eve of the St. Peter's Day, the day of
12 fasting, which ends at midnight
13 fasted on that day. We had this big lunch to celebrate the day, on the
15 Q. That's what I'm asking, sir. This big lunch was the day after
16 the dinner at the Bratunac Brigade; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. MITCHELL: Can we please have 65 ter 4434 in e-court. I
19 apologise, we don't have a translation of this in e-court yet.
20 Q. But, sir, can you take a look at this document and tell us what
21 it is? Sir, I'm told that what this document says is the assistance is
22 being issued for preparation of celebration of patron saint's day at the
23 Vlasenica SO and the Vlasenica SDS
24 Vlasenica, who is the host of the celebration. The president and
25 vice-president of the RS are going to attend the celebration. The items
1 should be registered and discharged as assistance.
2 A. And what date was that?
3 Q. That was just what I was going to ask you, sir. Can we scroll
4 back up. They are talking about preparations for this on the 13th of
5 July, aren't they, sir?
6 A. 13 July? That's not correct.
7 Q. So this is a mistake?
8 A. A mistake. Take the church call calendar and see when
9 St. Peter's Day is, when it is celebrated. And let me just explain one
10 more thing: This may have been taken for the celebration as starters,
11 but the paper may have still been issued on the 13th. And look here, why
12 would we need fruit marmelade or liver pate? Why would we need tinned
13 food? We had pork, lamb, cake, stews, cooked food. Why would we need
14 any of the tinned food? Why would we need bacon? What would that be
15 for? And can you scroll down a little. It says that president and
16 vice-president would attend. That's what you read out, isn't that?
17 President and vice-president are to attend the celebration. This is also
18 a mistake. They were not there, not at all.
19 Q. Okay. Sir. I want to ask you one last question. Do you know
20 Lieutenant-Colonel --
21 A. I apologise. I'm begging your pardon. And this, again, is not
22 my signatures where it says issued to personally.
23 Q. Sir, I'm not saying that that is your signature.
24 Who is Lieutenant-Colonel Ljubo Sobot.
25 A. Lieutenant-Colonel Ljubo Sobot was the assistant commander for
1 logistics in the brigade in Sekovici when the brigade was first
2 established. And later, he was transferred to the Drina Corps, but I
3 don't know when that happened.
4 MR. MITCHELL: Okay. Can we look at, just briefly, 65 ter 4419.
5 Q. Sir, you told us that you had no idea whose signature this is.
6 A. That's correct, yes.
7 Q. That's Lieutenant-Colonel Sabot's signature, isn't it, sir?
8 A. I don't know. So why didn't he sign Sobot? Why would he sign my
9 name? And excuse me, what document is that? The document for the fuel,
10 is that what we're talking about, the fuel document?
11 Q. It's an authorisation for to you fill up your car with 45 litres
12 of fuel signed by the officer in charge, Ljubo Sobot; correct?
13 A. I can see that this was in my name, and it was signed by
14 Ljubo Sobot, but I never took that fuel. It could have been anybody
15 else, and it did happen occasionally. I can only tell you that. And the
16 same is true of the foodstuff. Somebody took all that food on my behalf,
17 the potatoes and the pates; that's just crazy.
18 MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Bajagic. I have no further
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Is there re-examination, Mr. Sarapa?
21 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Sarapa:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, you've described your house, your
25 collection. Could you please tell us, did you acquire all that during
1 the war, or did you have all the things even before the war?
2 A. Everything that I had and I still have, and I had three times
3 more stuff before the war broke out. I acquired all that before the war,
4 and during the war up to the present day, I've had to sell things to
5 survive because my family has ten members and nobody is employed. The
6 only person who has been in gainful employment for five months is my
7 daughter-in-law. And the things that I have are all my inheritance, and
8 the ethnological collection that I have around my house is something that
9 I've been collecting for years, and I still have retained some very
10 unique artifacts and examples.
11 Q. You were shown several intercepts. Jovo Kundacina is a name
12 mentioned in one of these conversations. Do you know a person by that
14 A. I saw that, and I said that this was not my dialect, that I did
15 not and I do not speak like that. I know Jovo Kundacina just a little.
16 I know that he was an assistant for logistics somewhere, I believe it was
17 in Bijeljina, but I don't know whose logistics it was.
18 Q. In answering the Prosecutor's question -- questions about
19 mobilisation in 1991, you spoke about how it was done. Was there a
20 command of the Yugoslav People's Army in Han Pijesak?
21 A. Yes. The commander was Milosevic, who was either colonel or
22 lieutenant-colonel at the time.
23 Q. Mr. Bajagic, on the 11th of July when you went to Bratunac to
24 take the dinner there, you said that you took your own car there, didn't
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yes. The work log that you were shown depicting the dates, the
3 13th, the 14th and other dates, that work log indicates that four
4 different drivers used that vehicle?
5 A. You could see if for yourself. That's what it says.
6 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now show P4418, page 2 in
7 Serbian, page 3 in English, please. Could we please blow up the Serbian
8 version of this text a little bit more, if we could.
9 Q. Mr. Bajagic, could you please look at the date 1407 -- or the
10 time 1407. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the middle it says "Vlasen" and then -- "Vlasen" in the
13 Cyrillic script; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The first letter of the middle word, could it also be a letter M?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what about the second letter of that word? Is it an A, or
18 could it be an I?
19 A. It could also be a T because it has a cross across the line.
20 Q. However, is it a Cyrillic A, or is it a Cyrillic I?
21 A. Well, it could also be a J and an A and I. How should I know?
22 It could be anything.
23 Q. Let me ask you this.
24 A. It is the Cyrillic.
25 Q. Yes, it is the Cyrillic. In the Cyrillic script, could this also
1 be read as "Mil"?
2 A. Yes, it could also be read as "Mil."
3 Q. What would it mean when it says "Vlasen"; shortened for
4 "Vlasenica," isn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then "Vlasen," again, a shortened version of Vlasenica, and
7 then in the middle, "Mil." What would "Mil" stand for?
8 A. It could stand for Vlasenica Milici Vlasenica. That sounds
9 plausible enough.
10 Q. And now I would ask you about the 13th of July, which is
11 immediately above the 14th, above what we have just read out. It says
12 here, as you can see, "Vlasen," which is abbreviated Vlasenica, then
13 which "Srebre," which means Srebrenica, and then Vlasenica, and there's
14 no doubt about that. How many kilometres were travelled on the 13th of
15 July between Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Vlasenica?
16 A. There's something else. It says Vlasenica, Srebrenica, and
17 something else in small letters.
18 Q. It is Vlasenica?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: You are overlapping.
20 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 Q. On the 13th, Vlasen is Vlasenica, is it not? There's no doubt
22 about that. Then Srebre, that would be abbreviated Srebrenica, and then
23 after that we have Vlase, standing for Vlasenica. After that, in that
24 same line where the mileage is indicated, is there anything there?
25 A. No, there's nothing.
1 Q. What does it mean to you, the mileage is not recorded? What does
2 it mean?
3 A. Maybe that's what was planned, but nobody went -- nobody
4 travelled that route on that day.
5 Q. Which car did you take to Srebrenica?
6 A. My own Golf. I've already told you at least ten times so far.
7 Q. Very well. In this travel log on the 15th, it says -- for the
8 15th of July. Could you please concentrate on that. It says Vlasenica,
9 Milici, Pale, Vlasenica. Does this mean or confirm that on the 15th you
10 went to Pale?
11 A. Look here. It says 130 kilometres there, and you say Vlasenica
12 Milici. And this is only 15 kilometres, and Milici, whether it says Pale
13 here or not, from Milici to Pale there is 110 kilometres. From Pale back
14 to Vlasenica is, again, 90 kilometres plus local journeys. It should all
15 in all be at least 250 kilometres in my view.
16 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] Could we now produce P4402 [as
18 MR. MITCHELL: 4420, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: 4420.
20 MR. SARAPA: [In English] Yes, 4420. [Interpretation] Could we
21 please scroll up to see all the entries for the 13th of July, and I'm
22 talking about the Serbian text, please. 13th of July.
23 Q. Mr. Bajagic, you see the entries for the 13th of July, starting
24 with number 35, that's the first entry, and on this page it ends with
25 number 41. Can you see all that?
1 A. 13 July 1995
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And now you have number 41 where it says 45. That's the number
5 next to it.
6 A. Yes, I can see that.
7 Q. 45, you can see that. Well, do you see and can you tell us when
8 this could have been written and signed? We are looking at the last
9 column after the numbers. Do you see the names? I'm sure you see the
10 names from 35 to 41, and signatures. When should this have been signed?
11 A. From 35 to 41?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. What are you asking me?
14 Q. When should all these have been signed?
15 A. I don't understand. What do you mean? What should have been
17 Q. Look at the signatures in the last column. Signatures in the
18 last column, you can see different names, different family names,
19 different signatures belonging to the people.
20 A. Yes, I can see that.
21 Q. Was that entered on the same day?
22 A. On the same day?
23 Q. Yes?
24 A. How should I know? I did not make the entries, did I? I can see
25 different names.
1 Q. It says Bajagic Zvonko here.
2 A. It's not my signature. People, how can you not understand?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any further questions, Mr. Sarapa,
4 because our time is up already by five minutes.
5 MR. SARAPA: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. --
7 JUDGE KWON: I have to ask him a question. Sorry to the next
8 Chamber. Can I see page P4418 again, whether it is Pale or Milici.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Mitchell.
10 MR. MITCHELL: Judge Kwon, we have the original here if you'd
11 like to --
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, show him, too, the original, please.
13 Let's take a look at the 14th. You remember that entry, Mr.
14 Bajagic? When Mr. Mitchell from the Prosecution asked about that entry
15 to you, you answered this way. It's at page 57, line 21, so I shall read
16 it again, Mr. Bajagic:
17 "We can see there's also a trip on the 14th of July, Vlasenica,
18 Pal, Vlasenica, Loko. You told us that you went to see President
19 Karadzic around this time; correct?
21 "Did you take this vehicle on that day?
22 "... yes."
23 Do you stand by what you said?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the gentleman has
25 totally confused me when he trapped me into looking at these travel logs.
1 If I were to swear, I couldn't tell you whether I took the military car
2 or my own, but it says here Vlasenica, Pale, Vlasenica. Vlasenica, Pale,
3 and back to Vlasenica, only that is 180 kilometres. That journey alone
4 is 180 kilometres because Vlasenica to Pale is 90 kilometres in one
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Bajagic, on behalf of the Trial
8 Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over to give evidence, and I
9 wish you a safe journey back home. We'll come to documents, this and the
10 previous witness tomorrow. Thank you.
11 Registrar, if you could kindly communicate to the next Chamber
12 our apologies and explain that we overstayed in order to finish the
13 testimony of this witness. Thank you.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of March,
16 2009, at 9.00 a.m.