Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 692

 1                           Monday, 23 March 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  So good morning, everybody, and good morning to

 6     you, Madam Registrar.  Could you call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case the

 8     number IT-05-88-T, The Prosecution versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, ma'am.  All the accused are here.

10     Prosecution we have Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Thayer.  Absent from the Defence

11     teams I notice Mr. Ostojic, Ms. Nikolic, Mr. Krgovic.  Is he here or not?

12     And Mr. Petrusic.  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

14             MR. BOURGON:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning Judges.

15     I would like to take this opportunity to introduce a new legal assistant

16     working with the Nikolic team, Ms. Chloe Grandon from France.  Thank you,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Bienvenue, madam ou mademoiselle.  You have joined

19     a capable team, and I'm sure your contribution will be useful.  Thank

20     you.

21             We have a witness this morning for whom protective measures have

22     been sought in a motion filed by the Prosecution.  Reasons, I don't need

23     to repeat them.  They are -- you will find them in the motion itself.

24     Are there any objections for the granting of these protective measures

25     from any of the Defence teams?  There are none.  I take it that the

Page 693

 1     protective measures asked are still the same, that is, the use of a

 2     pseudonym, voice and face distortion; is that correct?

 3             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Yes, that's correct.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  So the decision of the Trial Chamber is to grant

 7     the motion and, consequently, also the protective measures sought.

 8             Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President --

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  He will also need a warning, a caution or --

11             MR. THAYER:  Yes, he will.  And also just to alert the Chamber

12     and my friends, I'm going to do everything I can to keep as much in open

13     session as possible.  We will have to jump back and forth, and I -- I

14     will probably have to stop him here or there to avoid any identification,

15     so I'll probably be putting up my hand from time to time with this

16     witness to do that.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  For the benefit of the gallery,

18     we will need to bring down the curtains for a short while until the

19     witness comes in.  You will be able to follow the proceedings when we are

20     in open session, which would be for most of the part, but you will not be

21     able to see the witness or hear his real or her real voice.  Thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go into private session for a moment?

Page 694

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, let's go to private session for a short while,

 2     please.

 3                           [Private session]

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Page 695

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14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we'll bring down the curtains.  We are going

16     to bring the witness in.  One moment.  We are going to stay in private

17     session for the time that he is entering the courtroom.  It's not

18     important.  Okay.  Then we can remain in open session.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20                           WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-174

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning to you, sir.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  And on behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to

25     welcome you to this trial where you have been summoned as a witness by

Page 696

 1     the Prosecution.  Before you start giving your testimony, our rules

 2     require that you make a solemn declaration to the effect that in the

 3     course of your testimony you'll be speaking the whole truth.  Madam

 4     Usher, who is standing next to you, is going to give you the text of this

 5     declaration.  Please read it out aloud and that will be your solemn

 6     declaration with us.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, sir.  Please make yourself

10     comfortable.  There are a few things that I need to explain to you today

11     before you start giving evidence, and the first is what you probably are

12     already aware of.  The Prosecution asked on your behalf for the granting

13     of some protective measures, namely, the use of a pseudonym instead of

14     your real name and also facial and voice distortion.  I take it that

15     these have been -- these measures have been explained to you in full

16     before you came into this courtroom; is that correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  And that is to your satisfaction?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  The other thing is the following, and it's a

21     responsibility that is thrust upon me by our rules of evidence and

22     procedure, and they arise -- this duty arises out of the fact that you

23     lived the events that you will be testifying upon, and it could well

24     happen that a question or questions may be put to you which, if you

25     answer truthfully, could incriminate you or could expose you possibly to

Page 697

 1     criminal proceedings.

 2             Now, in such cases, we have a safe-guard protecting your rights.

 3     If you are asked questions which if you think by answering would amount

 4     to self-incrimination, then you can ask us, the four Judges up here, to

 5     exempt you from answering such questions.  Now, this is a right that you

 6     have, but it's not an absolute right, and it's not absolute because after

 7     due considerations, we can come to the conclusion to reject your

 8     application and order you to answer these questions.  If we order you to

 9     answer such questions, you have a further right.  In such a case,

10     whatever you may say in reply to such incriminatory questions cannot be

11     used against you in any proceedings that might be instituted.

12             Have I made these rights clear to you enough?  All right.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  So the proceed will be as follows:  Mr. Thayer, I

15     understand, will be putting some questions to you.  There will be times

16     when we'll be in open session, and there will be times when we will go in

17     private session, and we will be going into private session pretty soon,

18     because we will be asking some personal details out of you which you

19     cannot answer in -- in open session, otherwise they would reveal your

20     identity, but most of the time we will be hopefully in open session.

21             Mr. Thayer will then be followed by, I suppose, one or more of

22     the various Defence teams.

23             Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning again to you

25     and Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

Page 698

 1                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

 2        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   Let me introduce myself formally for the record even though we

 5     met on Saturday.  My name is Nelson Thayer.  I'll be asking you some

 6     questions on behalf of the Prosecution.  The first thing I'd like to do,

 7     with Madam Usher's assistance, is hand you a piece of paper, and I'd like

 8     you to read it to yourself and just confirm to the Trial Chamber and

 9     whether or not you see your name written on that document which for the

10     record is 65 ter 4453.

11        A.   Yes, I see it.

12        Q.   As His Honour told you, sir, we'll be trying to stay in open

13     session as much as possible, but we will be going into private session

14     from time to time.  I will try to let you answer your questions without

15     interrupting you -- or answering my questions without interrupting you,

16     but there may be some occasions where I'll have to stop you if it sounds

17     like you might be about to identify yourself either directly or

18     indirectly.  So if I hold up my hand like this, I'm just asking you to

19     stop right there so we can go into private session.  Okay?

20        A.   All right.

21             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, may we go into private session for a

22     few moments?

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Certainly, Mr. Thayer.  Let's go into private

24     session for a short while, please.

25                           [Private session]

Page 699

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Page 701

 1     (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session now, Mr. Thayer.

 4             MR. THAYER:

 5        Q.   Sir, I want to turn your attention to a particular day in July of

 6     1995 after the fall of Srebrenica.  It's no secret among those of us in

 7     the courtroom about why you're here today, but Your Honours weren't

 8     there, so I want you to please take your time, I know it's difficult for

 9     you, but take your time and in as much details as possible take us

10     through the events of this day for Their Honours, please.

11        A.   That day it was Saturday.  I went towards the asphalt road.  I

12     don't know exactly what time it was.  It may have been about 12.00.  A

13     man came by whom I knew, (redacted), in a feature, and he said to

14     me, "Where are you going?"  And I said, "I'm going down the road."  And

15     he said, "Come with me to Rocevic."  And he said, "There are some Muslims

16     captured there."  And I said, "What are they doing there?"  "They've been

17     there for some two days."

18           So I got to Rocevic and this was in front of the school.  I got out

19    of the car with (redacted).  I don't know where he went.  I saw (redacted)

20    (redacted) at the door of the school and some other men.  The captured men

21     were loaded onto a truck.  (redacted) was there who told me to get into

22     the truck.  What are you doing waiting there?

23             I got in, and (redacted) were already in

24     the truck.  We went to Kozluk from there.

25             In Kozluk there was a role, and the dredges had probably dug it

Page 702

 1     beforehand.  The trucks went backwards.  There were executed men there

 2     already.  Then the side is open, and the men jumped down and the shooting

 3     was from two sides.

 4           I don't know how long I was there for.  After some time, (redacted)

 5     gave me a rifle.  I took it, and I fired as well.

 6             After some time, the men refused to get off the truck, and there

 7     were many military policemen and regular uniformed policemen.  I don't

 8     know whether they had put on these uniforms or whether they were real

 9     policemen.

10             I got into the truck.  I was told to do that.  I went in.

11     However, the men threw me down.  (redacted)

12     (redacted).  I didn't

13     fall into the hole.  Men were shooting behind at me.  I was covered in

14     blood from all sorts of reasons.  I turned around, and the only person I

15     knew was someone I called Cigo.  He was a policeman.  I knew him very

16     well.

17             And that's as much as I have to say.  That is as much as I can

18     remember.  After those traumatic events, I don't know whether I can

19     remember anything else.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.

21             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we're just looking at the transcript

22     and we've already communicated, I think, to Madam Registrar a couple of

23     redactions, but I'm going to need to go into private session for a few of

24     my follow-up questions.

25             May I go into private session, Mr. President?

Page 703

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.  Let's go into private session for

 2     a short while, please.

 3                           [Private session]

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20                           [Open session]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.  Thank you.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   When you saw Dragan Jovic and Srecko Acimovic at the Rocevic

24     school, do you remember what they were wearing?

25        A.   They had uniforms on them.

Page 704

 1        Q.   And when you saw Ljubo Ristanovic at the school, what was he

 2     wearing?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I'm afraid I can't remember that.  I came with him

 4     from Pazina [phoen] to Rocevic, and I can't remember what he was wearing.

 5        Q.   Approximately what time do you recall arriving at the school,

 6     sir?

 7        A.   Perhaps about 12.00 or 1.00.  I can't be a hundred per cent sure

 8     about that.

 9        Q.   You referred to seeing soldiers and -- and policemen at the

10     school.  How could you tell that some of those soldiers were policemen?

11        A.   The military police had white belts, and the regular army did

12     not.

13        Q.   And can you describe for the Trial Chamber how these soldiers and

14     MPs were deployed at the school when you got there?

15        A.   As you approached the school, they were on the left.  There were

16     some lying down with machine-guns.  They were lying on the ground, and

17     the guns were pointed towards the entrance to the school.

18        Q.   So what did it appear to you their task was that day when you got

19     there?

20        A.   I don't know.  (redacted), so I really don't know.  It

21     looked as if they were guarding the place so that no one could escape.

22        Q.   Now, when you were at the school, sir, did you see any trucks?

23        A.   There were trucks, trucks transporting the captured men.

24        Q.   Do you recall whether you saw the trucks arriving with captured

25     men or just leaving with captured men?

Page 705

 1        A.   I remember them leaving.

 2        Q.   In addition to the soldiers, the MPs, and the prisoners, what

 3     other people did you see, if any, at or around the school, sir?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there for long, maybe only some 15 or 20

 5     minutes.  There was Sreco Acimovic, Dragan Jovic.  That's as much as I

 6     know.  I don't know the people who were in uniform.  They were standing

 7     next to the entrance to the school.  Sreco was there and some other men

 8     with him, but I don't know who they were.

 9        Q.   Let me ask just a more direct question on that, sir.  Did you see

10     any civilians at or around the school?

11        A.   I did not.

12             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session, Mr. President, for a

13     moment, please?

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sure.  Let's go into private session, please.

15                           [Private session]

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Page 706

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20                           [Open session]

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   Sir, when you were at the school in Rocevic, did you see any of

24     the prisoners outside of the school, and if so, what was happening with

25     them?

Page 707

 1        A.   I didn't see anyone outside the school.

 2        Q.   The prisoners that you did see, sir, were they restrained in any

 3     way?

 4        A.   I don't understand what you mean by "restrained."

 5        Q.   Did they have anything on their hands?

 6        A.   I think they were tied, tied up.

 7        Q.   Now, when you reached the execution site at Kozluk, can you

 8     describe how the shooters who were carrying out the executions were

 9     positioned?

10        A.   There was a hole there.  The truck went backwards.  The side was

11     opened for them to jump into the hole.  And the soldiers were on both

12     sides, 15 or 20 or 30 on each side.  I can't be sure how many.

13        Q.   And were the shooters parallel, in two parallel lines, or was it

14     some different arrangement?

15        A.   They were next to one other like this, next to one another on

16     both sides in a line.  From the truck this way.

17        Q.   Sir, just so the record is clear since it can't reflect your

18     description, you're describing just two straight lines of -- of objects

19     coming from the truck with your hands; is that correct?

20        A.   The truck was there, and then the soldiers were here, you see.

21     The soldiers were on the right-hand side and on the left-hand side.

22        Q.   Okay, sir.  Approximately how many soldiers and MPs do you recall

23     seeing at the execution site in Kozluk?

24        A.   I don't know.  Maybe 40 or 50.  I don't know.  I'm not sure.  I'm

25     not able to tell you exactly.  Something like that.  There were many.

Page 708

 1             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session for a moment,

 2     Mr. President, please.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go into private session for a short

 4     while again, please.

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Page 709

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13                           [Open session]

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Sir, when you left the execution site at Kozluk, were the

17     executions continuing?

18        A.   They must have been, until they had emptied what had stayed on in

19     the school.

20        Q.   And at that site -- well, let me withdraw that.

21             You told us about the -- what the soldiers and MPs were wearing

22     at the school in Rocevic.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what the

23     soldiers who were at Kozluk were wearing?

24        A.   The same as those at Rocevici.  They were wearing the same

25     things.  The military police had white belts and the regular soldiers

Page 711

 1     didn't.  They had camouflage uniforms and all kinds of uniforms.

 2        Q.   And were both soldiers and MPs among the shooters, sir?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You mentioned one MP in particular at Kozluk who you recognised.

 5     I think you may have said you knew him well.  Let me just ask you a

 6     couple of follow-up questions about him.  Could you repeat his name or

 7     nickname for the Trial Chamber?

 8        A.   Cigo.

 9        Q.   Do you know Cigo's real name?

10        A.   I think it's Milomir.  I don't know, as no one calls him by his

11     name.  Everyone calls him Cigo.

12        Q.   And can you describe Cigo's physical appearance for the Trial

13     Chamber, please?

14        A.   He was about 35, quite tall, dark, and skinny.

15        Q.   What was he wearing that day in Kozluk?

16        A.   He had a white belt.  He was in the military police.

17        Q.   Where is Cigo from?

18        A.   From Tabrnaci -- from Tabanci, sorry.

19        Q.   And how close is that to Kozluk or Rocevic?

20        A.   Tabanci and Kozluk are close to one another, maybe two or three

21     kilometres.  It depends on where you live; whereas, between Tabanci and

22     Rocevici it's 6 or 7 kilometres.

23        Q.   And how is it that you're familiar with Cigo?  If you could

24     answer -- just to make sure, if you could answer without identifying

25     yourself.  Keep it general, if possible.  Just how is it that you know

Page 712

 1     this Cigo?

 2        A.   I used to see him in a workshop in Kozluk where he was working.

 3     I didn't know him before this thing happened, and then later on I saw him

 4     at this workshop.

 5        Q.   And when you say "workshop," sir, what exactly are you talking

 6     about?

 7        A.   Actually, it's a -- it's a betting shop, a cafe in Kozluk.  I

 8     don't know what the name of the betting shop was.

 9        Q.   Like a sports betting shop?  That kind of a betting shop, sir?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session for just one or two

12     questions, Mr. President, please.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's go into private session for a short

14     while, please.

15                           [Private session]

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10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   Sir, when you were at the execution site in Kozluk, did you see

14     any prisoners trying to escape?

15        A.   I don't believe it was possible for them to escape.  There was

16     this pit.  They were thrown from the truck into the pit, which was rather

17     deep, and it was impossible for them to climb back.

18        Q.   Did you ever hear anything about what happened to prisoners who

19     did try to escape from that execution site?

20        A.   Did I hear?  I'm sorry, I didn't understand you.

21        Q.   Did you ever hear anything about what happened to priors who did

22     try to escape from the execution site at Kozluk?

23        A.   I heard in Rocevic that there were such attempts and that they

24     were shot dead.  I don't know about Kozluk.

25        Q.   And staying at Rocevic for a moment, did you hear what happened

Page 714

 1     to the bodies of the prisoners who were shot dead at the school?

 2        A.   I heard that a tractor took them away.  Joca Stanovic was driving

 3     the tractor.  I know nothing else.

 4        Q.   Did you hear where the bodies were taken, sir?

 5        A.   They were taken towards the Drina.  I think that took place on

 6     Friday, and I was there on Saturday.  It may have happened even earlier.

 7             MR. THAYER:  May we go back into private session, Mr. President,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's revert to private session again, please.

10     Thank you.

11                           [Private session]

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Page 715

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18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session.

24             MR. THAYER:

25        Q.   When you saw Vukasin Draskovic at Kozluk, did he still have his

Page 716

 1     gun with him?

 2        A.   Yes, he did.

 3        Q.   Did you see Srecko Acimovic at Kozluk?

 4        A.   No, I didn't.

 5        Q.   Did you see Vujo Lazarevic at Kozluk?

 6        A.   No, I didn't.

 7        Q.   Did you see Mitar Lazarevic at Kozluk?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session for one final

10     question, Mr. President, please.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Private session again, please.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 717

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11 Page 32717 redacted. Private session.

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Page 718

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  My colleagues agree.  I think that's

25     reasonable.  So we'll have the break now, and then you tell us whether

Page 719

 1     you've finished with your questions when we reconvene in 25 minutes'

 2     time.  Thank you.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Just a couple of quick questions, Mr. President,

 7     then I'll conclude.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  In private or in open?

 9             MR. THAYER:  In open.  It's okay if we stay in open.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Go ahead.

11             MR. THAYER:

12        Q.   Good morning again, sir.  Just a couple of quick final questions

13     for you.  Where is Dragan Jovic from?

14        A.   From Rocevici.

15        Q.   And I asked a general question about this before, but more

16     precisely, do you know how Mr. Jovic discharged his military service

17     during the war?

18        A.   He completed his military service before the war.

19        Q.   And during the war do you know how he discharged his obligation

20     during the war?

21        A.   Well, I don't know.  I cannot be sure.  He was doing something at

22     the command.  He didn't go to the front line like other men did.

23        Q.   And my final question, sir:  What brigade or to which brigade did

24     Cigo belong?

25        A.   He was in the Zvornik [as interpreted].  He couldn't have been

Page 720

 1     with Sreco and his battalion.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions for you at this

 3     time.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 7             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Thayer, I just wondered if -- the transcript

 8     reflects that the witness answered to your last question:  "He was in the

 9     Zvornik.  He couldn't have been with Sreco and his battalion."  Is that

10     what -- I'd just like that clarified if that's what he said.

11             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Your Honour, I'll clarify that with the

12     witness.

13        Q.   Sir, the transcript reflects that when I asked you to which

14     brigade Cigo belonged, the transcript says:

15             "He was in the Zvornik.  He couldn't have been with Sreco and his

16     battalion."

17             Can you just clarify what you meant by that answer, sir?

18        A.   I knew men who were with Sreco in the military police.  Those

19     were men from my village and the neighbouring village.  Cigo was not in

20     Sreco's battalion but, rather, in the Zvornik Brigade.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Zivanovic.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have no questions at this point in time, Your

25     Honours.

Page 721

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  What do you mean at this point?

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Just in case, maybe such need could arise.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Nikolic.

 5             MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] I have no question, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. Bourgon, go ahead.

 7             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long do you anticipate your cross-examination?

 9     You had given an estimate of two hours.

10             MR. BOURGON:  I will try to shorten the cross-examination, but I

11     should be probably close to what I estimated.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  What are we waiting for?

13             MR. BOURGON:  I apologise, Mr. President, I thought that --

14             MR. JOSSE:  It was my fault.  I told my learned friend --

15             MR. BOURGON:  -- the Trial Chamber wasn't ready.

16             MR. JOSSE:  I told my learned friend to wait because I saw that

17     the Bench were deliberating.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

20        Q.   Good morning, sir.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   Sir, for the record, allow me to introduce myself.  My name is

23     Stephane Bourgon, and this morning I'm accompanied with my colleague

24     Ms. Chloe Grandon, and together we represent Drago Nikolic in these

25     proceedings.

Page 722

 1             Sir, my first question is I would like to know if it was

 2     communicated to you that I wished to meet you before your testimony.

 3        A.   I was told that.  I didn't know whether it was with you but with

 4     someone.

 5        Q.   And was it explained to you that in some cases it might be very

 6     helpful to me, to the Defence counsel, before you begin your testimony?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And was it suggested to you that maybe it was better not to meet

 9     with the Defence before your testimony?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And I was -- I was informed that you did not wish to meet with me

12     before your testimony, and I would just like to know if you could share

13     with us why you did not want to meet with the Defence before your

14     testimony.

15        A.   I don't know what we have to talk about.  We're talking now.

16        Q.   So you have nothing against the Defence?  I just want to make

17     that clear before I begin with my questions.

18        A.   No, I have nothing against.  Why would I have?

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  That's much appreciated.

20             Now, I understand that having to relive the events which took

21     place in July of 1995 is a difficult experience, and I will do my best to

22     keep my cross-examination as short as I can.  Now, that being said, sir,

23     there are a number of issues which I believe you can help me and help the

24     Trial Chamber with and issues that I would like to clarify.  But let me

25     begin by what you mentioned at the beginning of your testimony.

Page 723

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5        A.   Yes.  A little more than that.

 6        Q.   And I take it based on what you said at the beginning of your

 7     testimony that there are things which took place on that day in July 1995

 8     that you will never forget, such as, for example, the moment you were

 9     told to get -- to get up and get in the back of the truck to push the

10     prisoners who would then be executed.  I take it this is something you'll

11     never forget; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17        A.   It is.

18        Q.   And if I can use maybe just one more thing that I'm sure you'll

19     never forget, is when you press on that trigger, firing a weapon in the

20     direction of prisoners.  That's something that you'll never forget; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   It is.

23        Q.   And as you stated at the beginning of your testimony, I believe

24     you will agree with me as you sit in this courtroom here today that other

25     than for these very specific and horrible moments, it's very difficult

Page 724

 1     for you to remember with any type of details what happened and who was

 2     there really in July 1995; is that correct?

 3        A.   The things I can remember, I remember.  The things that I am able

 4     to remember, I remembered, and I've said all that I remembered.

 5        Q.   And in your interview you also said that there were lots of

 6     things that you cannot remember.  Do you agree with that?

 7        A.   Probably there are some things that I cannot remember, things

 8     that may have happened before and after my presence there.  That's what I

 9     said.

10        Q.   Now, based on your testimony, sir, as well as on your interview

11     with the Prosecution, it's my understanding that you spent very little

12     time in Kozluk.  Would you agree with that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you first arrived in

15     Kozluk you are in the back of the truck along with the prisoners and two

16     other persons.  And I won't say the names for now so that we remain in

17     open session.  Do you agree with that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At that moment you describe in your testimony that the side of

20     the truck was let open.  Now, at that time can you describe for us

21     exactly what you did and what the two people who were with you did?  Did

22     you push the prisoners out of the truck, and did the two individuals who

23     were with you, did they push the prisoners out of the truck?

24        A.   No.  No one pushed them then.  The truck was going backwards

25     towards the pit, so no one pushed them at that moment.

Page 725

 1        Q.   And how did they get out of the truck before being shot at?

 2        A.   When someone gave them the order, they got off.  When someone

 3     gave them the order, they came out.

 4        Q.   And these orders that you mention, were they given by the two

 5     people who were with you in the truck, or were they given by people who

 6     were outside of the truck?

 7        A.   Other persons.

 8        Q.   Those persons outside of the truck; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And at that moment the two persons who were with you, they did

11     not fire their weapons at the prisoners, did they?

12        A.   They did not.

13        Q.   And it's at that point that you yourself got off the truck and

14     where you say you were handed a weapon by someone else; is that correct?

15        A.   That didn't happen straight away, a little later.

16        Q.   And when you say "a little later," is it a matter of minutes or

17     more?

18        A.   Maybe some 20 minutes or half an hour.  I'm not quite sure.

19        Q.   And that weapon that was given to you, you were never given an

20     order to fire at the prisoners by the person who gave you the weapon; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   It is not correct.  Why did he give it to me?

23        Q.   My question is did he tell you to do anything with that weapon

24     when he gave it to you?

25        A.   My answer is yes.  He gave me the rifle, which means to shoot.

Page 726

 1        Q.   So that was your understanding and this is what you did.

 2        A.   Yes, of course.

 3        Q.   And when that was finished, you handed the weapon over, and

 4     you're not sure whom you gave that weapon over to; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  Now, I'm not sure whether he took it back or an older man.

 6     I don't know.

 7             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, if I can move in private session,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sure, Mr. Bourgon.  Let's move into private session

10     for a short while, please.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

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Page 727

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11 Pages 32727-32732 redacted. Private session.

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Page 733

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11   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are back in open session.

21             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Sir, at the time these events took place, would I be right in

23     saying that you had never fired a weapon in your life?  Is that -- would

24     that be a fair statement?

25        A.   Well --

Page 734

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Witness, please repeat the answer.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Witness, the interpreters didn't hear what you

 3     said.  If you could repeat it, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not correct.

 5             MR. BOURGON:

 6        Q.   So can you tell us how familiar you were with the use of a weapon

 7     in July of 1995?

 8        A.   I wasn't familiar at all.

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13        A.   Yes.  There were some hunters before going out and I went with

14     them to shoot, and one could also learn that during the war.  There were

15     fire-arms everywhere.  We even had some weapons in our house.

16        Q.   Now, sir, at the time these events took place, would I be right

17     in saying that your knowledge of the military in general must have been

18     very limited?  Would you agree with that?

19        A.   Well, naturally.  Of course I would agree that it was limited.

20        Q.   So for example, the rank structure of the army is not something

21     you were familiar with in July 1995.

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And the difference between an officer and a non-officer is also

24     something that you would not have been able to tell in July 1995?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 735

 1        Q.   And you were not familiar with any types of badges worn by the

 2     military and what badge referred to what unit.  That's not something you

 3     knew in July 1995?

 4        A.   Depends.  I knew some.

 5        Q.   And what about the meaning of, for example, a blue uniform,

 6     because you mention in your interview that you might have seen blue

 7     uniforms in Kozluk.  The meaning of a blue uniform is not something you

 8     were familiar with in 1995, in July.

 9        A.   I knew its meaning.  When I mentioned white belts, that was the

10     military police, because they were beating people around for refusing to

11     go to the front line and people ended dead; whereas, the blue uniforms

12     were used by civilian police.  I am not saying they were there, but

13     neighbour somebody took a civilian police uniform from someone else and

14     wore it there.

15        Q.   And, sir, you will agree with me that in July of 1995 and during

16     the war in general, almost every man was wearing uniform or parts of

17     military uniforms.  Would you agree with that?

18        A.   Well, not exactly.

19        Q.   Were there lots of parts of uniforms being worn in July 1995 by

20     men?

21        A.   Yes, there were parts, but there were those who didn't have any

22     uniform at all.

23        Q.   And the fact that somebody was wearing a uniform, to your

24     knowledge in July 1995, did that mean that that person was in the army?

25        A.   If it was a camouflage uniform, green, he would be in the army,

Page 736

 1     and if it would be camouflage uniforms with black or blue, that would be

 2     a member of the police.

 3        Q.   So in July 1995 you saw somebody wearing a piece of uniform that

 4     was camouflage.  Your understanding at your age at the time was that this

 5     member was a member of the military; is that correct?

 6        A.   Well, I cannot -- I don't understand the question.

 7        Q.   I'll try to make it more precise.  In July 1995, if you saw a man

 8     wearing part of a military uniform, camouflage, as you say, I take it you

 9     assumed that this man was part of the army.

10        A.   Well, of course.  That would be my conclusion.

11             MR. BOURGON:  If we can move back in private session,

12     Mr. President, please.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move back to private session for a short

14     while, please.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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11 Pages 32737-32738 redacted. Private session.

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Page 739

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

 5             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Sir, just to -- I'll say my last question over again now that

 7     we're in public session.  You confirmed that you did not see an APC in

 8     Rocevic, a white APC; is that correct?

 9        A.   I cannot say that I saw it or that I didn't see it.  I cannot say

10     100 per cent whether it was there or not.

11        Q.   But, sir, you do know what an APC is, an armoured personnel

12     carrier, white in colour.  If I say those letters, you know what that is;

13     do you?

14        A.   White colour?  I don't know.  No, I didn't see it.  And this is

15     the first time that I hear that it was in colour white.

16        Q.   So you've heard about the presence of an APC there at other

17     times, did you?

18        A.   No, I didn't.

19        Q.   Now, just to get back to my previous question to ensure that you

20     know.  I would just like you to tell me "yes" or "no" whether you know

21     what is an APC.

22        A.   I know.  I saw it in films.

23        Q.   In the film did you see any white APCs?

24        A.   No, I didn't.

25        Q.   And were there any rumours around in Rocevic area about the

Page 740

 1     presence of an APC in Rocevic?  Did you ever hear that?

 2        A.   I don't know whether there were any rumours, whether it was there

 3     or it wasn't.  I can't tell you anything, because I can't be sure.

 4     Whatever I tell you would be a lie.

 5        Q.   Well, I'm just asking very, very candidly, simply.  Did you hear

 6     rumours about an APC being in Rocevic?  Whether maybe -- is it that you

 7     don't remember if -- any rumours about APC, or there were no rumours?

 8     I'd just like to know which one it is.

 9        A.   I don't know either.  I can't give you an answer to any of your

10     questions because I don't know.  Maybe there were rumours, but maybe I

11     forgot.  Maybe there were rumours, but whatever I tell you, I will be

12     telling you lies.

13        Q.   And as -- of course, that's because these events took place long

14     time ago, so that's the reason why you would not remember these rumours;

15     is that correct?

16        A.   If it had been there, I might have remembered.  Maybe it's

17     correct.

18        Q.   And, sir, if I tell you that many witnesses who had testified in

19     this trial mentioned that they did see a white APC present in Rocevic, do

20     you agree that it's possible that it was there but you simply missed it?

21        A.   I wouldn't agree.  Everyone gives their own testimony, and it's

22     not my place to confirm what other people says -- said.  I can only tell

23     you what I know.

24        Q.   And my question, sir, is very simple.  Is it possible that it was

25     there and you just missed it?

Page 741

 1        A.   I don't know.  It may have been there, but then again it may have

 2     not.  Maybe I didn't notice it.  I know nothing about it.  Therefore, I

 3     cannot tell you anything more.

 4        Q.   That's nothing more than I wanted, and that's very useful.  Sir,

 5     when you were asked questions about the prisoners in Rocevic, you

 6     mentioned that their hands were tied.  Do you recall saying this?

 7        A.   I think that I believe that they were tied, not that they were

 8     tied 100 per cent.  I said, "I think."

 9        Q.   So it's possible that their hands were not tied; is that correct?

10        A.   It is possible.

11        Q.   And you also said that you could not remember whether they were

12     blindfolded.  Do you recall saying this?

13        A.   I don't think they were.  I cannot remember, but I'm more

14     inclined to believe that they weren't.

15        Q.   But you're not sure?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And if other witnesses have mentioned that they did see prisoners

18     blindfolded in Rocevic, then maybe they were and you just missed it; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   I said a minute ago everybody gives their own testimonies.  If

21     other witnesses said that, I think that they were not blindfolded, and

22     it's up to you to decide and to make up your mind.

23        Q.   Now, sir, when I suggest things like that to you about what other

24     witnesses have said, all I'm trying to do is to maybe refresh your

25     memory, and sometimes when you knowing that other witnesses have said

Page 742

 1     something, it might help you to remember.

 2             Now, when you were asked during your interview how the prisoners

 3     were getting in the truck in Rocevic, you said the following, and now I

 4     quote your words:

 5              "I can't recall.  Maybe there was something that they can climb

 6     up.  I don't know."

 7             Do you recall saying this?

 8        A.   Yes, I know.  That's what I said.  They asked me whether there

 9     were some stairs or something else.  I remember saying this, but I can't

10     remember how they got on.  I don't know.

11        Q.   So is it that you did not see the prisoners getting on the truck

12     or that you just don't remember because it's very -- happened long time

13     ago?

14        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember.

15        Q.   Now, in your testimony today as well as in your interview, you

16     mentioned the presence of Sreco Acimovic standing next to the door.

17     That's something that you do remember; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And can you describe for us what Sreco Acimovic was doing when

20     you saw him?

21        A.   He was talking to some men next to the entrance door of the

22     school in Rocevic.  I don't know what they were talking about, because I

23     wasn't nearby, and I don't know those men.

24        Q.   And would I be right in saying that Sreco Acimovic, based on your

25     understanding of the events at the time, was the one who was telling

Page 743

 1     people what to do on that day?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I don't think so.

 3        Q.   And just getting back with respect to the trucks being loaded in

 4     Rocevic, do you remember exactly the location where the truck was when

 5     the prisoners were being loaded?

 6        A.   It was parked on the playground in front of the school, and there

 7     is a gym there as well.  So about 50 metres from the school door.

 8        Q.   So you did not see the trucks being backed up against the door of

 9     the gym, or maybe you don't remember?

10        A.   I didn't see that.  I don't know.  But I don't think it could

11     have accessed it, because there's a fence there.

12        Q.   But you mention in your testimony, and correct me if I'm wrong, I

13     don't have the exact reference, that you did not see any of the prisoners

14     outside of the school in Rocevic; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you one more question in respect of the events in Rocevic.

17     During your interview you stated the following, and that was on page 11,

18     line 15 to 17 from my colleague:

19              "I saw a lot of people there, and a lot of them were unknown to

20     me, including the MPs who were not from that area."

21             Do you recall saying this, sir?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   So you saw some MPs in Rocevic.

24        A.   I don't know about Rocevic, but I did see them in Kozluk.

25        Q.   So did you see anyone wearing white belts in Rocevic?

Page 744

 1        A.   They were lying on the ground with their machine-guns.  Now,

 2     whether they had white belts or not, but the main thing is that I don't

 3     none of them were from our neighbourhood.

 4        Q.   And if they -- if they had been from your neighbourhood, maybe

 5     you would have been able to identify them, maybe?

 6        A.   I would probably know that even then.

 7        Q.   And, sir, a witness that testified before this Trial Chamber, and

 8     I don't think that was in private session, if it is then we can redact,

 9     his name was Janjic, and he said that there were military police --

10     military police and members of the military from Bratunac in Rocevic.

11     Can you say anything about that?

12        A.   I can't say anything about that.

13        Q.   So all you know is that those people that you saw in Rocevic,

14     they were not from your area, and they were from elsewhere; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Now, would you agree with me that during your interview, on many

18     occasions you provided information to the Prosecution which you qualified

19     as being information that you heard about later.  Would you agree with

20     that?

21        A.   I don't know what specifically you're referring to.

22        Q.   Well, I'll go through some examples with you, but would you agree

23     with me that there is lots of information which you obtained from the

24     events in Rocevic and Kozluk that you heard about later, that you did not

25     see for yourself in July 1995?  Would you agree with that?

Page 745

 1        A.   All I said is something that I was sure about, and what I wasn't

 2     sure about I made a point of that.  So some things which are 100 per cent

 3     true were things that I personally experienced, and as for other things,

 4     I don't know.

 5        Q.   Now, when you mention that there were lots of information, and

 6     you stated that again during your examination-in-chief, you'll agree with

 7     me that ever since that day in July 1995, there are plenty of rumours

 8     circulating about what happened there in both the Rocevic and Kozluk

 9     area.  Would you agree with that?

10        A.   I would agree.

11        Q.   And to use one example, you stated in your testimony that you

12     heard about bodies or dead bodies in Rocevic.  Now, that's something that

13     you did not see for yourself; is that correct?

14        A.   It is.

15        Q.   And you also mentioned the name of an individual who would have

16     taken these bodies away on a tractor.  Again, that's something that you

17     learned later; is that correct?

18        A.   It is.

19        Q.   And when you say that you learned this later, would I be right in

20     saying that you cannot point directly to a source?  This simply comes

21     from all the gossip and the rumours being discussed in Kozluk and

22     Rocevic; is that correct?

23        A.   It is.

24        Q.   And even though you live in --

25             MR. BOURGON:  If we can redact that and go into private session,

Page 746

 1     Mr. President, please.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Let's go in to private session for a short

 3     while, and please proceed with the redaction.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 747

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11 Pages 32747-32754 redacted. Private session.

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Page 755

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

10             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Sir, when you were interviewed by the Prosecution about a year

12     ago, would you agree with me that you were asked on many occasions what

13     you remember seeing at the execution site?

14        A.   Is it true that they asked me then or later, after that?

15        Q.   Well, did they ask you many times during your interview?

16        A.   Well, yes.

17        Q.   How many times did you speak with representatives of the

18     Prosecution before your interview in The Hague?

19        A.   By phone we spoke twice.

20        Q.   And what did they tell you on the phone on those two occasions?

21        A.   The first time they called me up it was January.  They said they

22     had information that I was in Kozluk and if I could come here, otherwise,

23     Mr. Thomas would come over there, and they asked me if I would come over

24     here, and I said no problem.  And the next day they called me again.  I

25     gave them my mobile phone number, and then seven days later I came here.

Page 756

 1        Q.   And did they discuss what information they were looking you to

 2     provide them with?

 3        A.   They asked me about this and that, and I said what had happened.

 4     That's it.

 5        Q.   And did you give them any names on the phone before you came to

 6     The Hague?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And did they tell you at the time that they knew that you had

 9     shot at the prisoners in Kozluk?

10        A.   They said they had information that I was in Kozluk, and that

11     made everything clear.

12        Q.   Now, sir, today you said at page 16, lines 20 to 23, that there

13     were some 40 to 50 persons, military police and other military, doing the

14     shooting in Kozluk.  Is it -- are you really sure that there were that

15     many, or maybe it's blurry in your head --

16     [Previous translation continued]...

17        A.   There may have been more.  There may have been less.

18        Q.   And how many less there could have been?  Like, is it possible

19     there may have been ten?

20        A.   It is not possible.

21        Q.   Fifteen?

22        A.   It's not possible.  Maybe 15 or 20 to each side.

23        Q.   So it was a large group?

24        A.   Yes, it was.

25        Q.   And you've already said today that, for example, those who told

Page 757

 1     you to get on the truck, you did not know them.  That's correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And would I be right in saying that other than --

 4             MR. BOURGON:  Mr. President, if we could move in private session,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sure.  Let's go to private session, please.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 758

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11 Pages 32758-32765 redacted. Private session.

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Page 766

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 767

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are in open session, Mr. Bourgon.

 2             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Sir, would you agree with me that the name Cigo that you

 4     mentioned today in your testimony, that's a name that is part of the

 5     rumours that you heard over the years since July 1995?

 6        A.   I don't agree with you.

 7        Q.   So there are no rumours about this man, whether in Rocevic or the

 8     Kozluk area, between July 1995 and today; is that your testimony?

 9        A.   I don't know whether there were any rumours.  I'm not saying

10     anything about rumours.  There are rumours always.  You cannot stop

11     people from spreading rumours.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

13             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

15             Mr. Lazarevic, do you have questions?

16             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Ms. Fauveau?

18             MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No question.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  For the president, please.

21             MR. JOSSE:  No, Your Honours, we don't have any questions either.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I thank you, Mr. Josse.

23             Mr. Haynes.

24             MR. HAYNES:  Just a few.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Haynes:

Page 768

 1        Q.   Well, good afternoon, Witness.  My name is Peter Haynes and I

 2     represent Vinko Pandurevic, and I've probably got 5 or 10 minutes of

 3     questions for you, so if you bear with me this ordeal will soon be over.

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you've described that during that period of time you

 8     travelled outside Bosnia.  Did you do that on your own?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you help us?  Do you now understand what murder is?

11        A.   Yes, I understand now.

12        Q.   And is it something that you believe should be punish?

13        A.   Anyone who commits such things should be punished, of course.

14        Q.   And does pointing a loaded automatic fire-arm at somebody who is

15     helplessly standing in a pit and killing them conform with what you

16     believe murder to be?

17        A.   Yes, it is murder.

18        Q.   How many times did you do that on the afternoon you've described

19     to us?

20        A.   Once.  I don't know how long I was holding it.  I don't know how

21     many seconds it lasted.

22        Q.   And are you telling us you discharged more than one bullet?

23        A.   Yes.  It was a burst of fire.  I don't know how many bullets.

24     Maybe five, maybe three, or ten.  I cannot remember at this point.

25        Q.   So how many people do you think you killed?

Page 769

 1        A.   I don't think I even killed anyone.

 2        Q.   Now, this is not the first five you've been to The Hague, is it?

 3     You were here in January of 2008.

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   And on that occasion you sat down with three gentlemen called

 6     Blaszczyk, Nicholls, and Elderkin.  Do you remember that?  Had you met

 7     Mr. Blaszczyk before the meeting here in The Hague?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Had you spoken to him?

10        A.   How could I speak to him if I didn't know him before?

11        Q.   By telephone.

12        A.   No, I didn't speak to him.  There was an interpreter there.

13        Q.   Very well.  Well, were you advised that when you came to The

14     Hague in January 2008, it might be a nice idea if you brought a lawyer

15     with you to advise you?

16        A.   They didn't tell me to bring a lawyer.  They asked me when I came

17     for the interview -- actually, they listed the rights I had, but no one

18     told me to bring a lawyer.

19        Q.   And since then has there been any indication from any quarter

20     that you might face punishment for what you did that afternoon?

21        A.   We haven't yet spoken about those things.

22        Q.   Well, let me put it another way.  Have you received any summonses

23     from any courts in Sarajevo or the like?

24        A.   No, I haven't.

25        Q.   And when you said at line 3 of page 78, "We haven't yet spoken

Page 770

 1     about those things," who is the "we" you're referring to?  Are you

 2     expecting to speak to somebody about this?

 3        A.   I didn't understand the question.

 4        Q.   Well, it was your response.  You said, "We haven't yet spoken

 5     about these things."  Who hasn't yet spoken about these things?

 6        A.   I haven't discussed those things with anyone.  I haven't engaged

 7     a lawyer.  I haven't done anything in that direction yet.

 8        Q.   And have you been given to understand anything as to what might

 9     happen to you by the Prosecution here in The Hague?

10        A.   Nobody told me anything.

11        Q.   Now, I just want briefly to go back to what you told us about the

12     afternoon of that Saturday in July.  And I accept it might be difficult

13     for you to know precisely what you were about when you left your

14     grandparents house, but would I be right in suggesting to you that

15     anticipated being back in your grandparents' house within half an hour?

16        A.   I thought that between half an hour or an hour I would be back,

17     because I went to the asphalt road, and then I could come back.  We live

18     in a village.  We work the land.  There wasn't much time to waste.

19        Q.   But as you've told us in evidence today, and it's page 19, lines

20     2 to 4, you didn't get back to your grandparents' home until very late

21     that night; is that right?

22        A.   No, not that night, that day.

23        Q.   But -- but it was late and you'd spent three to four hours on the

24     road in the rain.  That's what you told us at page 19, lines 2 to 4.  Do

25     you stand by that?

Page 771

 1        A.   It was raining later.  It wasn't raining all the time.  When I

 2     left home, it wasn't raining.  It was raining when I got back.

 3        Q.   What you said to us earlier today was the following:

 4             "What did you do after you picked yourself up from the execution

 5     pit?"

 6             And this is your answer:

 7              "I went home.  It was quite late.  I stayed three or four hours

 8     there on the road, and I went home so that nobody would know where I had

 9     been.  It was raining.  I remember that well."

10             Is that correct?

11        A.   It was late.  I meant because of the time I had spent away from

12     home.  So that's why I said it was late.  What I meant was that I had

13     lost a lot of time, that it took some time before I got back home.

14        Q.   What about the three to four hours on the road?

15        A.   I wasn't on the road.

16        Q.   That's what it appears you said earlier on.  Did you spend three

17     to four hours getting home?

18        A.   I said I spent perhaps three hours.  That is the time-period from

19     when I left home to until I got back home.  Not on the road.  I didn't

20     say I spent three hours on the road.

21        Q.   And how late was it when you got back?

22        A.   I don't know.  I can't say whether it was 2.00, 3.00, or 4.00.  I

23     didn't have a watch.  Whatever I say could be a lie.

24        Q.   Was it evening when you got back or afternoon?

25        A.   It was day light.

Page 772

 1        Q.   Very well.  Thank you very much.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Is there re-examination, Mr. Thayer?

 3             MR. THAYER:  Just one or two short questions, Mr. President, and

 4     I'll complete before -- obviously before the end of the session.

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, we need to finish with this witness today.

 6             MR. THAYER:  I will, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Go ahead.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Just a couple of quick questions for you.

10             In answer to a number of questions today, particularly with

11     respect to the events at Rocevic, you referred to being able to recognise

12     people, and the term you used, the phrase you used, was if they were from

13     your area or if they were your neighbours.  It might be helpful for the

14     court if you provided some idea of what size, what geographic distance

15     are you talking about when you refer to people being from your area or

16     your neighbours?  And if we need to go into private session for your

17     answer, if you want to be specific, we can certainly do that, sir, but if

18     you can answer in open session, please do.

19        A.   I mean the people within a circumference of 2 kilometres, in the

20     village and around it.  Those further away, I don't know.

21        Q.   So beyond that small closed community you -- you can't recognise

22     people.  Your testimony is that you wouldn't know the people beyond that

23     small community.  Is that fair to say?

24        A.   I can now, but in those days I couldn't.  I was a child.  I could

25     just know the people living nearby.

Page 773

 1        Q.   I just want to give you an opportunity, sir, given some of the

 2     questions that were asked.  You told the Trial Chamber in answer to one

 3     of the questions that you took the business card from Cigo and that you

 4     wanted to tell the person on the business card everything.  Can you tell

 5     the Trial Chamber why you wanted to tell that person on the business card

 6     everything?

 7        A.   I thought I'd call up and tell the person everything that had

 8     happened with my life, how my life had been destroyed.  It -- I feel much

 9     better once I say it all.  Whatever will happen, will happen.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Thayer.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Sir, we don't have any further questions for you,

14     which means you're free to go.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to

15     thank you for having come over to give testimony.  I also wish to put

16     your mind at rest that you will receive all the assistance you need to

17     return you to where you wish to go, and on behalf of everyone, I wish you

18     a safe journey back.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 774

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.

11             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Line 7 it is on that page, on page 62.

13     Thank you.

14             All right.  So let's agree on this.  Tomorrow there is nothing

15     happening; correct?  Yes.  Then we have -- Wednesday your witness will be

16     here.  Are there any protective measures in place or not?

17             MR. THAYER:  One moment, Mr. President.  My understanding is, Mr.

18     President, we haven't had an opportunity to confirm with the witness,

19     he's not arrived yet.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  Yes, I saw you standing,

21     Mr. Bourgon.

22             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just, I've heard

23     rumours, and maybe there is an e-mail that I did not see, concerning the

24     date for a witness that was being reconvened by the Trial Chamber.  Is

25     there any possibility, Mr. President, to have an update as to when we can

Page 775

 1     be expected to hear this witness?  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE AGIUS:  We issued an order last Friday.  We issued an order

 3     last Friday.  The order is indeed dated on the 20th, and --

 4             [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  The order was confidential but it was not

 6     ex parte.  I can't, because of security reasons --

 7             MR. BOURGON:  I apologise, Mr. President.  If there is -- I will

 8     get it.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  We issued it.  I signed it on Friday, and if it's

10     come back to me it means that it has been filed.

11             MR. BOURGON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I apologise.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  You can check that.  Thanks.

13             So Wednesday -- is it morning or afternoon?  Morning.  Wednesday

14     morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day

17                           of March, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.

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