1 Wednesday, 25 March 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Pandurevic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning.
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, ma'am.
11 I welcome, everybody. And good morning, everybody. I notice the
12 absence of accused Pandurevic. We have already received the waiver, so
13 Mr. Sarapa, I take it we can proceed.
14 Representation. Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Elderkin for the
15 Prosecution. Absent from the Defence teams, I notice Mr. Ostojic,
16 Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Haynes.
17 Before we start, a motion for protected measures for the witness
18 was filed yesterday evening, I take it. Are you all aware of it?
19 Because it was filed at a late hour. Yes, you are. Are there any
21 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
23 No objections from our side, but I'd just like to introduce our
24 new legal assistant, Ms. Negosava Smiljanic.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I'm glad to see that you and other
2 Defence teams are taking on board additional staff now, as we approach a
3 critical moment. I think it's very useful. Welcome, madam.
4 Any objections to the granting of protective measures.
5 We hear none. Motion granted. So this guy will have face and
6 voice distortion, plus pseudonym. Otherwise, the hearing will be in
7 public session, except of course for the critical parts, like his
8 identity and so on.
9 Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
10 JUDGE KWON: The pseudonym being ...
11 JUDGE AGIUS: 175, it should be, yes. It should be 175.
12 Okay. Can we bring in the witness. We keep the curtains down
13 until he comes in, and then we'll put them up again.
14 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And he will need a caution, Mr. President. Good
17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, sir.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to welcome
23 You are about to start giving evidence. Before you do so, you
24 are required by our Rules to enter a solemn declaration that you will be
25 testifying the truth. You are being handed the text now. Please read it
1 out aloud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS PW-175
5 [The witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, sir. Please make yourself comfortable.
7 As I said, you are about to start giving evidence. Before you do
8 so, however, there are a couple of things.
9 You can start pulling the curtains up again, please.
10 Before you start giving evidence, however, I would like to inform
11 you of the following: First, that upon your request, the Prosecution
12 asked for some protective measures to be put in place to protect your
13 identity. We asked the various Defence teams this morning if they had
14 any objection to such protective measures, and they have all agreed that
15 we should grant the protective measures, or, rather, they have not
16 objected to the granting, so we have put in place the following
17 protective measures: Pseudonym, in other words, you will be referred to
18 not by your name, but by a number; and then facial and voice distortion.
19 I take it the nature of these measures have already been
20 explained to you before coming into this courtroom. Is that right?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are satisfied with this arrangement, aren't
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, basically.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Then there is another thing that I need to inform
1 you about, and that's in the form of an advisory, and I suggest you pay
2 careful attention to what I'm going to tell you now.
3 There may be questions put to you -- I'm not saying that there
4 will, but there may be questions put to you, which if you answer
5 truthfully, could possibly expose you to criminal proceedings; in other
6 words, could incriminate you. You would be incriminating yourself. In
7 such a case, our Rules provide for a remedy in the form of a right which
8 you have to ask the Trial Chamber to exempt you from answering such
9 questions. This is not, however, an absolute rule, in the sense that we
10 can grant such exemption, but we can also refuse it after hearing what
11 you have to say.
12 If we grant the exemption, then obviously you don't answer the
13 question. If we order you to answer such questions, then the privilege
14 that you have is in the form of an additional right; namely, that
15 whatever you say which is self-incriminatory will then not be capable of
16 being used against you. In other words, if you say things that could
17 expose you to criminal proceedings, if there are criminal proceedings,
18 whatever you would have said would not be used in those proceedings,
19 cannot be used in those proceedings.
20 Was this explained to you before you came into the courtroom?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And you fully understand the extent of its import?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So having said that, I think we can proceed.
25 Mr. McCloskey will lead, will have some questions for you. I
1 assume he will then be followed by some of the Defence teams, if at all.
2 Mr. McCloskey, you still expect one hour or, sorry, 75 minutes?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think less than that.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you. Go ahead.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
6 Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, everyone.
7 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
8 Q. Good morning, Witness. First of all, I'm going to show you a
9 sheet of paper. It's our number 65 ter 4459, and can you tell us if this
10 is your name. We don't want it out loud, but we just want to confirm
11 your identity.
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Now, if we could go into private
14 session for just a moment, a few initial questions, and then we'll go
15 into open. And so my questions now, sir, no one will hear.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment until we get to --
17 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
1 Q. Is it true that you have, in questioning by the Office of the
2 Prosecutor, been shown a vehicle log for a minivan?
3 A. I don't remember the picture, but I was shown a vehicle log.
4 Q. And did that -- looking at that vehicle log, did that help remind
5 you of a trip you took on July 23rd, 1995
6 A. In part.
7 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Court, as best as you can remember, about
8 that trip? Who first told you you were going -- you had a specific task
9 that day on the 23rd of July?
10 A. That specific task, if I remember, there were two rides. I'm not
11 exactly sure, but I was issued this task by my commander, the commander
12 of the administrative headquarters.
13 Q. And give us his name, please.
14 A. Momo Amovic. That's what they called him. I don't know if he
15 goes by another name.
16 Q. So you were issued a task by Momo Amovic on the 23rd of July; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So, please, sir, when you know -- when you know something, just
20 tell us. When you're not sure, please tell us as well, but please don't
21 preface everything with you're not sure, unless that's absolutely true.
22 Now, tell us, what did Mr. Amovic tell you to do that day?
23 A. Well, I had a previous trip to do, and when I came back outside
24 the administrative headquarters, he told me to drive some people who were
25 there by the road at that place indicated on the log. I went and did as
1 I had been told.
2 Q. So where did you go to get these people you referred to?
3 A. Somewhere down towards Tesca [phoen].
4 Q. And did you mention another little village?
5 A. Dragasevac Tesca. That's on the same road.
6 Q. And where did you go in this Dragasevac area? Pardon me for the
8 A. Dragasevac. I went there, and he told me to take them to the
9 battalion. I didn't ask why or how. I was not entitled to put
10 questions. I turned around and went to execute the task.
11 Q. Sir, my question is: Where did you go in Dragasevac?
12 A. I went from Vlasenica to Dragasevac. They were by the road over
13 there. I took them inside and drove them to Bisina, to Sekovici.
14 Q. Were there any buildings by the road where you picked them up?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What kind?
17 A. Some houses in rubble, destroyed. I didn't look carefully.
18 Q. Was that a unit of men that were living in that area?
19 A. I don't know whether they were living there or not. I did not
20 notice any civilians there.
21 Q. Sir, you've described that as a special unit to us. What did you
22 mean by that?
23 A. I don't know if it was a unit or if those were some particular
24 people. I had never seen them there, and I had never taken such people
25 for a ride.
1 Q. Do you recall earlier describing the different ethnic make-up of
2 those people?
3 A. I heard them talking. One of them or two or three of them were
4 Muslims, and there were a couple of Croats, as far as I could judge from
5 their conversation. I did not know them, so I can't tell you anything
7 Q. And how many of them got into your vehicle that day?
8 A. Five or six. I did not count, because the first one who got in
9 started to insult me.
10 Q. And what were they wearing?
11 A. They were masked, with caps over their heads, some fingerless
12 gloves, and they had overalls of different colours.
13 Q. Did they have any military appearance, or were these mechanics'
14 overalls or something else?
15 A. Well, like military fatigues, but they were all different.
16 Q. Were any of them armed?
17 A. The first two had weapons, but as far as the others are
18 concerned, I did not dare look at them, so I couldn't see. But I could
19 see the first two were armed.
20 Q. Why would you not dare look at, you know, six soldiers that you
21 picked up?
22 A. Well, because the first one who got on broke the mirror with his
23 rifle, and he suggested, Look ahead. And after that, I didn't dare turn
25 Q. So what vehicle were you driving that day that they got into?
1 A. The minibus.
2 Q. Was anyone else with you, besides these men?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And did you then drive to the place you were told to take them by
5 your commander?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And where was that?
8 A. At first, the commander told me to go to the brigade, but then we
9 changed direction, and I don't know whether it was the 3rd or the 4th
10 Battalion because I never asked.
11 Q. First of all, what brigade are we talking about?
12 A. We are talking about, I suppose, the Sekovici Brigade.
13 Q. Sir, I think you would know the brigade, so let me ask you again.
14 What brigade are we talking about?
15 A. Well, I don't know which battalion of theirs was up there because
16 I never inquired whether it was the 4th, the 5th, the 3rd. I have no
17 idea which one it was.
18 Q. I'm not asking you -- don't worry about the battalions at this
19 point. I'm just -- the brigade we are talking about, what brigade area
20 was it?
21 A. Supposedly the Sekovic Brigade. How can I know? The
22 Sekovic Brigade, presumably.
23 Q. And you mentioned, I belive, and I don't think the interpreters
24 didn't pick it up, but a place where you were told to go. Where were you
25 told to go by your commander?
1 A. I was to drive them to the battalion, the Sekovic Brigada,
2 Brigade, since they changed the plan and they sent us directly to the
3 battalion where it was.
4 Q. And where was that?
5 A. In Bisina.
6 Q. And when you say "they changed the plan," who is "they"?
7 A. One of the men who boarded the bus, when we were approaching
8 Sekovici, he just told me, Drive to Pasina, or Bisina. I don't know who
9 had told him. I then I complied, I just made a detour and drove towards
10 Pasina -- Bisina.
11 Q. We need to get this right. Can you -- and it's just a little
12 trouble with the translation. What is the name of the area where you
13 went, Pasina or Bisina?
14 A. You know what, I think it's Bisina. I'm not a surveyor to give
15 you the exact names, but I know it's called Bisina.
16 Q. And about what time of day was this when you were driving this
17 group to Bisina?
18 A. Sometime around noon
19 it's recorded in the log-book.
20 Q. We'll go over the log-book briefly near the end. I just want to
21 have you tell this before we get to that.
22 Now, where precisely did you drive to? Can you describe to the
23 area where you stopped the car, the minivan?
24 A. It was somewhere close to their HQ, some 200 or 300 metres, I
25 cannot tell you exactly, from it.
1 Q. Was it along the main asphalt road or somewhere else that you
2 stopped the car?
3 A. No, it's up there. It's a macadam road.
4 Q. So what was around the place where you stopped the minivan?
5 A. Along the way, I saw a building being built. On the right-hand
6 side, there was water, and maybe a kilometre or two ahead I stopped.
7 There was a man there, an elderly man. He didn't have all his teeth, and
8 his clothes were rather shabby. He stopped us. They all alighted. He
9 told me to turn around and wait over there where they were building this
10 barracks and where this water was. They got out. I turned around and
11 went back, while they proceeded along the road towards the command.
12 Q. Besides this old person with missing teeth, did you see anybody
13 else in that area when you pulled up your minivan there?
14 A. I saw another two or three civilians who were minding the cattle
15 or were picking raspberries. I don't know exactly what they were doing.
16 Because there was a forest, I wasn't able to see much more. I think I
17 saw a couple of persons there. Whether they were security or not, I
18 don't know because I didn't go closer. And I also saw two vehicles
19 parked in the area.
20 Q. What kind of vehicles did you see parked in the area?
21 A. As far as I remember, one -- one 110 vehicle and one Pinzgauer,
22 or maybe an ambulance vehicle. I'm not sure, but I saw these two
24 Q. So when you say a 110 vehicle, can you tell us the -- what the
25 brand name that was?
1 A. That's a TAM
2 Q. All right. And the Pinzgauer, what kind of a vehicle was that?
3 A. Well, it's a vehicle for various purposes. It's an all-terrain
4 vehicle. I never drove one.
5 Q. Now, when these men that you brought over in the minivan got out
6 of the minivan, were they armed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. With what?
9 A. They had rifles.
10 Q. What kind of rifles?
11 A. I suppose automatic ones.
12 Q. And tell us what happened as you waited there, after they left.
13 A. Well, I went back for about one kilometre. I don't remember if I
14 went anywhere. There was some people building some house there, but I
15 don't know what they were doing. I never approached them or asked them
16 what they were doing. I just had some water to drink.
17 Q. You've told us, in the interview, about seeing some men with
18 belts, and you described the colour of the belt. Do you remember that?
19 A. While I was standing there and they were getting out, I noticed,
20 close to the command, three or four men in uniform. Whether it was their
21 army posted there to secure the command headquarters or not, I don't
22 know, because I never went near them.
23 Q. What about the belts?
24 A. Well, they had yellow belts, maybe white. I don't remember
25 precisely because I -- I couldn't see much. They were far away. I just
1 saw these men standing there, but what they were doing, I really don't
3 Q. Did those men that you drove in the minibus come back to you?
4 A. When do you mean?
5 Q. That day, after you dropped them off, did you have to take them
6 back home?
7 A. Yes. Since the commander told me at the beginning that the
8 front-line had been broken through, I was told to wait for them and take
9 them back, and I did what I had been told to do.
10 Q. How long was it before they came back? How long did you wait
11 until they showed up again at your minivan?
12 A. Well, I cannot tell you precisely. If I remember, it lasted
13 three, four, five hours. I don't know exactly, but this can also be
14 found in the log-book.
15 Q. What were they doing, as far as you know, if you know?
16 A. Well, I wouldn't know, because my commander told me that the line
17 had been breached and that I had to drive them to the 4th Battalion.
18 However, what they did there, I -- I have no idea. I wasn't there with
19 them. I was waiting for them in the vicinity of the builders, so I
20 cannot give you any precise data. I'm reluctant to tell you something
21 that would be untrue; therefore, I don't know what they were doing.
22 Q. So were you still scared of these men, like you were when they
23 got on your vehicle?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Why?
1 A. Because I had troubles with them before, and some other people,
2 who persecuted me because I had been in Serbia.
3 Q. When they came back, what happened?
4 A. I was standing next to the vehicle. Suddenly, I heard someone's
5 voice. A man was with me who was watering his cattle, and I suddenly
6 noticed them coming and walking towards me. I got on the minibus. They
7 also got on in the minibus. They went and took seats behind and told me
8 to drive them to the spot where I had picked them up.
9 Q. And did you do that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And where was it that you were dropping them off to? I mean,
12 surely not just in the middle of the road somewhere.
13 A. I took them to the exact place where they got on.
14 Q. All right. Let's take a look at the vehicle log that you've seen
15 before. It's P04432, and, sir, that will come up on your screen. I have
16 the original, too, which I'll show in a minute, but let's have you work
17 with the screen for a minute, since everyone else is looking at that as
19 If we could put the first page of the B/C/S on that. It
20 shouldn't be broadcast. If we could blow up the right side. The left
21 side really isn't important for my questioning.
22 Okay. Sir, first of all, can you tell us what this is.
23 A. I need my glasses, and it's in my jacket.
24 Q. And your jacket's in the witness room?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Could someone --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the inside pocket.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll bring it over to you.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. And, sir, if you need to take a break for any reason, you know,
5 just let me know, and you can take a break.
6 A. Not yet.
7 Q. Okay. While we're waiting for your glasses, can you tell us what
8 the vehicle work log is? We'll go over the details when you can see it,
9 but can you tell us, just generally, what it's used for?
10 A. The vehicle work log is a sheet which serves for recording the
11 use of a vehicle, including all the data relating to the fuel, the
12 lubricants, and other things.
13 Q. And you had told us that your supervisors were a bit worried
14 about you because you'd gone to Serbia
15 AWOL; is that right?
16 A. Could you please repeat the question.
17 Q. You told us that your supervisors were a bit worried about you,
18 kind of looking at you closely, because at one point you had gone to
20 A. What do you mean? During the war or -- I don't understand the
22 Q. Yes, during the war. You went to Serbia without permission,
23 right, and you got in trouble with your supervisors?
24 A. Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And was it your job to fill in this report for this vehicle?
1 A. I wasn't supposed to sign it. I was only supposed to record the
3 Q. And did you record the journey accurately when you were recording
4 and filling this out?
5 A. Whatever's written in my handwriting, I can vouch, say that it's
6 true. But as for the others, I don't know.
7 Q. All right. Well, let's look at this first page, and I'm going to
8 give you the original so you can see the original just of the first page
10 Now, we can all see that this says "minibus." Is that the
11 minibus you drove on that day, on the 23rd of July?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And now I notice -- I notice you're looking on the back page, and
14 we'll get to the back page, but could you flip over and look at the first
15 page so we can talk about that for a minute. And do you see your name on
16 that first page as one of the drivers?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you see your handwriting anywhere on that first page?
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the second page. Now, before we
21 blow it up, do you see your handwriting on this page anywhere?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you describe where you see your handwriting.
24 A. You can find it in -- under the item dated 19th of July, also
25 20th of July and 21st of July, and 23rd of July as well.
1 Q. How about the 24th?
2 A. No, that's -- it's one of my colleagues' handwriting for the
4 Q. Okay. So as we look on this document from the 19th to the 23rd,
5 we see several columns at the top, and it goes "1" through "20." You
6 have told us before that all of those columns were your handwriting,
7 except column 20; is that right?
8 A. I can see here from the 19th, so my handwriting is for the 19th
9 and the 23rd. The 24th was not, because I was driving a different
11 Q. All right. Well, let's go directly to the 23rd, where we see it
12 says "Vlasenica-Sekovici-Bisina-Sekovici." Is that the trip that you've
13 described today in your testimony?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is that your handwriting, having written
18 Q. And under the total people carried, number 8, did you write that?
19 A. Yes, that's how it was -- it should be.
20 Q. And so does that eight include you, or is that only the people --
21 the number of people you carried?
22 A. Including me.
23 Q. All right. So then we get to column 10, and it says
24 "Kilometres: 48." Is that roughly accurate for the trip you took?
25 A. Well, more or less, it's correct, because tachograph was
1 inoperable, and the commander took these distances from the map and told
2 me to record them as such.
3 Q. All right. And then we go to the sections where people's names
4 are handwritten in. I want to -- it looks like 16, 17, 18, 19, and
5 what's the name of the person that's handwritten in there for the 23rd of
6 July, the first one?
7 A. 23rd of July?
8 Q. Yes, please.
9 A. Are you referring to the first name that we can see, 16, 17, and
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. It's written here "Popovic."
13 Q. Does it say "Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic"?
14 A. Whether he was a lieutenant-colonel or colonel, I don't know
15 which rank he had. It just says here "Popovic."
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we blow that up, section -- July 23rd,
17 section 16, 17, and 18 over on the far right side.
18 Q. Sir, we can see something before "Popovic" on this, can't we?
19 It's an abbreviation, it looks like to me.
20 A. It reads -- yes, I see, it says "PUK." This is probably it,
21 "P. PUK
22 Q. And that's your handwriting; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you wrote that down there; correct? Or did you write that
25 down there?
1 A. I wrote this down because after I finished this and the log
2 wasn't signed on the spot, I asked who's going to sign this. He told me,
3 Leave it on the desk and get out. And that is what I did. When I came
4 back after two or three days, the same happened. My boss, who was in
5 charge of material and finances, he asked me whose signature this is. I
6 told him that I left the sheet with my boss and that I also cannot
7 discern whose signature this was. He asked what was happening. I found
8 this signature to be very suspicious, because I didn't sign it; I just
9 filled in and left the room. And the same happened with all the other
10 items that were initially without the signature and were later given a
11 signature. So you can see my signature earlier, but whose signatures
12 came later on, I don't know.
13 Q. Sir, are you saying you filled in the name "Popovic" after it was
15 A. Yes, yes, as far as I can remember, particularly these journeys.
16 You can also see that my colleague filled it out afterwards. When we
17 finished the journey, the person who used the car should sign it on the
18 spot. Since this gentleman who was supposed to sign it for the trip
19 where I took these gentlemen wasn't around, I asked my boss what to do.
20 So even without a signature, I had to indicate the journey that I took.
21 Now, who signed this, I don't know. I found it suspicious, so I had to
22 make some mark on it.
23 You can see also, from the subsequent entries, that the
24 signatures were put at a later date. I had troubles on a couple of
25 occasions that they wanted to send me back on the front. That is why I
1 recorded everything accurately, in the event of any of my officers
2 inquired about what I was doing, but I don't know who signed this.
3 Q. But you did write down "Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic" three times,
4 as it's indicated in this record; correct?
5 A. Well, every time when I went on a trip, that's what I would do.
6 If the user of the services is not there during the trip, I bring the log
7 to my boss, I bring back the keys, and I go back to my dorm. Or if I am
8 going home and the vehicle is needed, another driver gets in and takes
9 it. I don't know exactly how the gentleman signs, whether it's really
10 his signature or not. I cannot comment upon that. But I asked the boss
11 of the assets and finances service immediately. I left the log-book with
12 him and left.
13 Q. But you -- you printed Popovic's name in this log-book; right?
14 A. I did write it in block letters when the man asked me about the
15 signature. He asked me, Where did you go? Who was in charge? And I
16 said, Popovic, I wrote down "Popovic," because that's what I had been
17 told. The man did not sign the log. I normally don't leave the car
18 until my log-book is signed, because I know I will get in trouble.
19 Q. Sir, so you just said:
20 "I did write in block letters, which the man asked me about the
21 signature. He asked me, Where did you go? Who was in charge? And I
22 said, Popovic, I wrote down 'Popovic,' because that's what I had been
23 told. The man did not sign the log. I normally don't leave the car
24 until my log-book is signed, because I know I will get in trouble."
25 So you stand by that answer?
1 A. Yes, I said that, but I also added something about the signature,
2 because this was not signed immediately. I didn't even see the man
3 there, and that's what I emphasised. The same happened with those
4 entries where it said -- where it says "Drago." I had to put it in there
5 as an approximation. Somebody from their service was in charge. I
6 couldn't go into that. I just carried out the orders.
7 Q. Somebody from whose service was in charge?
8 A. Well, that service, you know, the service that the boss indicated
9 to me.
10 Q. Tell us. I mean, we know there's different services in the army,
11 but what service?
12 A. Well, the security service. I don't know what to call it. I'm
13 not a very literate man, and I don't know much about the distribution of
15 Q. Well, why did you think Popovic was in charge, to have written
16 that on this log-book like you said?
17 A. Well, because my boss said, well, probably Popovic. I could not
18 argue with him. I wrote what he said; I left the paper on his desk. And
19 where he carried the log from there on, I don't know.
20 Q. Sir, did your boss say "probably Popovic," or did he say
22 A. He said, Probably Popovic. It was a long time ago, but as far as
23 I remember, he said, Well, Popovic, I suppose. I really don't know
24 whether it was him or someone else from his service. I don't make these
1 Q. Okay. Let me ask you briefly about the entry on the 19th. We
2 have an intercept where the Prosecution believes is a mention of a
3 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic having some job he's doing on the 19th,
4 distributing something, I believe. What can you tell us about what you
5 were doing on the 19th?
6 A. Well, if I remember correctly, it says here something about the
7 19th, and I -- it's probably as I described it earlier. I went to
8 Vlasenica, Tesca and Jakovica; that's some village where the battalion
9 was. I don't know exactly what it was about. Perhaps those people were
10 on leave, so the soldiers from Vlasenica went there. I don't recall
12 Q. Okay. I want to draw your attention to, and we can see it right
13 at the top of the page -- we know the first two lines are from the 19th.
14 We see the first line says "Colonel Popovic," and the second line is
15 "Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic," and that's your handwriting, isn't it, that
16 you wrote that in there too; correct?
17 A. Yes, yes, it is my signature -- it's my handwriting, sorry.
18 Q. So you were working with Colonel Popovic that day?
19 A. No. No, I didn't even see him.
20 Q. So why did you write his name down there?
21 A. Well, because some job was being done for his service or
22 involving his people, the trip to Jakovica and the driving back to
23 Sekovici. In those days, I didn't see much of him; maybe once during a
24 lineup, but I didn't really look carefully, and I didn't have any contact
25 with him because I practically didn't know him. I did not go upstairs,
1 as a rule. It was out of bounds for me. During those days, I didn't see
2 him at all, I believe. I saw him perhaps that once during a lineup. I
3 was just a regular soldier. I did not normally speak to them.
4 Q. Sir, it's the position of the Prosecution, and I'm very glad that
5 you came to testify today, but that you know much more than you're
6 telling. You know that people were executed at Bisina, don't you?
7 A. Let me tell you very honestly. After all the torture they
8 inflicted upon me, I am very bitter. If I knew anything else, I would
9 certainly tell you, but since I don't know anything but what I could read
10 from the media -- and for every of these trips, I wouldn't have let him
11 off if he had been there. He would have had to sign for himself.
12 Everyone who uses a vehicle is obliged to sign for it. Really, for this
13 day, the 19th, somebody from that service, from their service, perhaps
14 issued an order to my boss, saying, Drive these people to Jakovci, to
15 that battalion. They must return to their position, and that was it.
16 Apart from that, I couldn't say anything, because I really don't know
17 what was going on. I mean, whatever I said would be perhaps untrue, and,
18 I mean, I don't remember anything else happening.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: No further questions.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
21 Mr. Zivanovic.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I'd like just briefly to consult my
23 client; very, very briefly, for a minute or two.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, of course. The security guards,
25 please make that possible.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
2 We have no questions for the witness. Thank you.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nikolic.
4 Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Nikolic.
7 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic.
9 MR. LAZAREVIC: No questions.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 Ms. Fauveau.
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sarapa.
14 MR. SARAPA: No questions. Thank you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 Do you have questions, Judge Kwon, Judge Stole?
17 Sir, you will be pleased to know that we don't require your
18 presence any further, because your testimony comes to an end here.
19 You're free to go, and you will receive assistance from our staff
20 to facilitate your return back home at the earliest.
21 On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having
22 come over to give testimony, and I also wish you a safe journey back
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anything else before we adjourn?
1 Yes, the pseudonym sheet and the log-book.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: They are already in evidence.
4 I don't need to ask if there is any objection to the tendering of
5 the pseudonym sheet? It's admitted and to be kept under seal, please.
6 Anything else? None.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So one moment.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session, please.
11 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
5 So to revert to the public aspect of it, so by Friday we expect a
6 further motion from you. We are to expect a further motion for further
7 reopening and further rebuttal. Thank you.
8 We stand adjourned now.
9 You will soon know, because we will be -- I actually have already
10 signed it, but we'll be issuing orders as regards scheduling.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.18 a.m.