Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33566

 1                           Monday, 4 May 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.  Mr. Registrar, could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning to Your

 9     Honours.  Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is

10     case IT-05-88-T, The Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.  Thank you,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  For the record, all the accused are

13     present.  Prosecution, it's Mr. McCloskey and Ms. Soljan.

14             From the Defence teams, I notice the absence of Ms. Nikolic and

15     Mr. Krgovic.

16             All right.  Good morning to you, Mr. Janc.

17             THE WITNESS:  Morning.

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are going to proceed with your cross-examination

19     today and hopefully finish.

20             Ms. Tapuskovic, good morning to you.  Go ahead, please.

21             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning.

22     Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.  Before I start, I would like

23     to tender certain evidence we have used during the examination of expert

24     persons.  On the list, Your Honours, you will find ten exhibits.  The

25     first five we tender under seal because they contain names; the sixth,

Page 33567

 1     not under seal; the seventh, under seal; and the tenth document is MFI.

 2     It was submitted for translation.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Madam.

 4             Any objection?  Mr. McCloskey?  Ms. Soljan?  No objection.

 5             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, we have no objections.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So these documents are admitted as

 7     explained by you, some under seal and some -- and one being particularly

 8     being MFI'd.

 9             All right.  Thank you, let's proceed.

10             Incidentally, Mr. Ostojic, I am assuming all along that since you

11     didn't stand you had no documents to tender relating to Dr. Parsons'

12     evidence?

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  That's correct, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

15                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

16                           Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic: [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Mr. Janc, we'll pick up

18     where we left off last Friday.  I would only like to add to what I said

19     about 1D362, which contained the information that one of the members of

20     the BH Army was killed on the 18th of August, 1994.  And I'd like to

21     answer the question of His Honour Judge Kwon about where that person was

22     and where his body was exhumed from.  That individual on your -- is on

23     your confidential Annex B under the heading "Others" and Serbia-related,

24     there are 45 names on the list.  And this individual was exhumed in the

25     Zvornik area.

Page 33568

 1             Concerning another person mentioned in document 1D1363 [as

 2     interpreted], that person is also in confidential Annex B [as

 3     interpreted] concerning Bljeceva, more precisely Bljeceva 2.  And in the

 4     list of missing persons, 494, it says that there is a re-association for

 5     that person, but that re-association is related to Bljeceva 2.

 6             I hope this answers Judge Kwon's question.

 7             Mr. Janc, tell me, have you read the indictment in this case?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.

 9        Q.   You know that in Srebrenica, the 28th Division of the BH Army was

10     stationed, was based?

11        A.   Yes, I know.

12        Q.   You told us here earlier about the movement of the column from

13     Jaglici and Susanj; right?

14        A.   Yes, right.

15        Q.   On page 33378, on the first day of your testimony in lines 20 to

16     25, you told us that the sources for your report and your summary were

17     the ICMP list and sources from the competent agencies of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do you remember saying that?

19        A.   Yes, I do remember.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Madam Tapuskovic.  Before the

21     transcript runs away:  Page 2, line 19, that should read 1D1362.

22             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And on page 3, line 2, you said confidential Annex B

25     concerning Bljeceva.  Is that correct?  I don't see any item on Bljeceva

Page 33569

 1     in confidential Annex B.  If you could correct me.

 2             MS. SOLJAN:  It should be confidential Annex D, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  D, not B.

 4             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] It is confidential Annex D.  I

 5     might have misspoken.  If so, I'm sorry.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Very easy to confuse B and D.  D for Delta we are

 7     talking about.  Thank you.

 8             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Janc, when you say the competent authorities of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina, you did not mean the Ministry of Defence, did

11     you?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Can you tell me whether that decision not to consult the Ministry

14     of Defence and their lists of missing persons and dead during the war in

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina was yours?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did perhaps the Prosecution suggest to you not to take these

18     lists into account?

19        A.   No, they did not.

20        Q.   Does that mean, then, that you did not have insight into what all

21     the Defence teams introduced into evidence on the subject during their

22     respective examinations?

23        A.   No, I don't think that's the case.

24        Q.   Then tell me, what evidence presented by the Defence did you take

25     into account?

Page 33570

 1        A.   I can't tell you that because I don't have information about all

 2     of your evidence.

 3        Q.   Did you perhaps take into account 3D398, which is the finding of

 4     expert Svetlana Radovanovic led together with annexes during the

 5     examination of Drago Nikolic?

 6        A.   No, I did not read her testimony.

 7             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation]  Thank you.  May I now call up

 8     1D1364, but not to be broadcast.

 9        Q.   Would you please pay attention to the name of this person without

10     saying it because we can move through all the documents without any

11     problem.

12             Under item 2, you can see that the aforementioned person, as a

13     member of the BH Army, which is stricken, went missing on the

14     12th of July, 1995.  It is then confirmed that the person was born in

15     1938 in Glogova, municipality of Bratunac, and is on the military

16     evidence of a military unit from the 10th of May, 1992, until

17     10th January, 1994.

18        A.   Yes, I see that.

19        Q.   Did the Prosecution perhaps show you this document?

20        A.   No, but it can be found on the system because I see an ERN

21     number, so it's not a problem.  I have access to it.

22        Q.   But have you seen this document before?

23        A.   I can't say this particular one, but maybe for some other -- some

24     other individuals.

25        Q.   We received from the Prosecution about 100 certificates from the

Page 33571

 1     Ministry of Defence concerning members of their units submitted to the

 2     Prosecution upon their request, and we spoke about this document on

 3     Friday, about this type of document.  Can you see that it is noted in

 4     this document that the certificate is issued concerning a person no

 5     longer on the records of the BH Army who was on the evidence of the

 6     BH Army from the 10th of May, 1992, and that that person went missing on

 7     the 12th of July, 1995?

 8        A.   Yes, I see that.

 9             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] May I now ask the usher to help

10     us and put the document on the ELMO so that it is not available to the

11     public, and to zoom in a little because the script is very small.  That

12     is an excerpt from 4494.

13        Q.   I asked you, Mr. Janc, to pay attention to the name when I showed

14     you that certificate from the BH Army.  Do you recognise the person in

15     the middle is the same person named in the certificate of the BH Army?

16        A.   First name and last names and also the father's name are the

17     same.  The date of birth is not.

18        Q.   Correct; date of birth is not the same.  But this person is on

19     the list of those identified, and if we can move a little to the right to

20     see where the person was exhumed, we'll see that the site is Kamenica;

21     correct, Mr. Janc?

22        A.   Yes, yes.  You can also see that from the case ID.

23        Q.   Right.  And we see from this that this is only a main case;

24     correct?  Now, move back to the left, please, to see the status of the

25     case.

Page 33572

 1        A.   Yes, indeed.  This is the main case.

 2        Q.   Since this is an excerpt from the list which I made by cutting

 3     off the names above and below, we can conclude that we have no

 4     re-association here; correct?

 5        A.   So I can't say that from this spreadsheet I have in front of me.

 6     I would have to consult the entire ICMP update spreadsheet in order to

 7     conclude or to give you an answer to that because -- but if you check

 8     that, I believe you.

 9        Q.   Yes.  That's why we made this excerpt including the name before

10     and the name after, to show that it's part of a list.

11             Mr. Janc, if we treat Kamenica as a surface grave - and in your

12     confidential Annex D it is in subfolder Pobudje - can you tell me whether

13     you are able to conclude why in the case of a person found on the surface

14     and for whom there is evidence from the BH Army that they were killed on

15     the 10th of January, 1994, there occurred a change in the date of death

16     and the date of this person's inclusion in the list of individuals

17     identified?

18        A.   This individual, as I can see here, is not found on the surface.

19     This individual is found in Kamenica 10, which means Cancari number 10

20     mass grave.  If I can move to the beginning, you will see the site code,

21     which is KAM10 Zvornik, so that means Cancari 10.

22             And to comment on your suggestion that there is no re-association

23     in that you have taken this example, I see that it is not in -- just let

24     me see.  Okay, you were right.  You are right, because I see it is sorted

25     by ICMP ID.  Yes.  But it is definitely a grave.  It's not surface

Page 33573

 1     remains.

 2        Q.   All right.  This can be verified based on all the evidence you

 3     have introduced concerning exhumations.

 4             Mr. Janc, it is the Defence case that the Ministry of Defence of

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina had very precise and updated records for their

 6     members, and those records showed exact dates of disappearance of their

 7     members or their deaths regardless of the cause.  Do you know that the

 8     lists of the BH Army were the only lists that included unique personal

 9     identification numbers, JMBGs?

10        A.   No, I don't know that, and I can't see that number from these

11     certificates.

12        Q.   Yes, they are not included in the certificates.  Do you know, and

13     I suppose you know, that unique personal identification numbers are the

14     most precise identifiers of persons and that even twins have different

15     unique personal identification numbers?

16        A.   Yes, I know that that's the case in former Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] May I now call up 1D1372.

19        Q.   While we are waiting for this document, this is another cutting

20     from the list of people identified, P4494 made by the Defence, and this

21     document relates to three locations:  The first document is location

22     Buk Bijela; the second page is location Bojna; and the third page shows

23     the location Blace, Visegrad.  This document should not be broadcast

24     because it contains a name.

25             Mr. Janc, tell me, do you know where these sites are:

Page 33574

 1     Buk Bijela; Bojna; and Blace, Visegrad?

 2        A.   I just assume where they are.  Like it says here, it's around

 3     Foca, the first one.  The others are around Visegrad or in Visegrad.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If we look at page 1, which shows the location

 5     Buk Bljela near Foca, as you said, we ran a check for a person identified

 6     here, for the person identified here, and we saw that in the list of

 7     people missing from year 2000, which is Exhibit P566; and the list from

 8     2000, P2414; and another list, P3006, we were unable to find this person

 9     on the list of individuals identified.  Can you tell us, then, why this

10     person now appears on the list of identifications, and why then can he be

11     considered Srebrenica-related if he was not on the list of missing

12     persons?

13        A.   I don't know why it is on the ICMP list, but I'm sure I did not

14     include this particular person into my report.  It's not there and --

15     yeah, that would be the answer.  I don't know why it is on this list

16     because I'm still waiting.  I did request the BiH authorities who

17     provided me with the exhumation records regarding these sites as you just

18     mentioned, Foca, Visegrad, all these sites.  The request was sent to

19     them, but no response from their side yet, so I'm waiting for these

20     exhumation records to see a little bit more.  But it is not included,

21     this person into my report, or this site.

22             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Can I please move to the next

23     page now.

24        Q.   Having checked all these lists of missing persons that I

25     mentioned earlier, the Defence has established that the person exhumed at

Page 33575

 1     Bojna has not been listed in the missing person list, but it is now

 2     appearing in this exhibit, which is P4494.

 3             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation]  Can we now move to the next

 4     page that deals with the Visegrad site.  If we can enlarge it, please.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before we move on, Ms. Tapuskovic.  Mr. Janc, the

 6     exhibit we saw earlier on is an excerpt from P4494, which is your

 7     confidential Annex D, so I didn't understand that you didn't include them

 8     in your report.  What did you mean?

 9             THE WITNESS:  No, I would like to see my report or consult my

10     report regarding that particular individual.  But I know, also, for the

11     individuals we can see on the screen now, they are not included in my

12     report.  But for that previous one, I'm quite certain that I did not

13     include that particular site in my report.  So that's what I know, that I

14     included that particular individual also.  So but I would like to see

15     where exactly in my confidential Annex D that individual is listed.  Then

16     I can comment a little bit further if you find it, if you find this

17     individual there, but I doubt it's there.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I remember I heard from Ms. Tapuskovic that 1D1372

19     is an excerpt from 4494.

20             THE WITNESS:  But it seems to me this is something different

21     because I see -- on the top I see the logo of the ICMP.  I don't think

22     these are the same -- the same data they have provided to us and that I

23     have used for my report.

24             If you move up, we will see --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Tapuskovic, page 8, line 16, you said:  "May I

Page 33576

 1     now call up 1D1372 ... This is another cutting from the list of people

 2     identified, P4494 made by the Defence."

 3             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm

 4     going to explain it.  During my preparations for this cross-examination,

 5     the Defence team was using P4494.  It's a document done in Excel, which

 6     contains 7.762 entries.  In Excel, you can sort out the information by

 7     any criteria, either by names, columns, location, or any other parameter

 8     displayed in 12 columns.  Also, by selecting certain parts, you can

 9     create an excerpt from that spreadsheet, and all the excerpts that we

10     have been using so far have been made by selecting a specific portion of

11     the list, but we did not realign the order as compared to the original

12     one.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Soljan.

14             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, I'd like the Defence to maybe point

15     out where in confidential Annex D that particular ID case can be found

16     because it is not in there.

17             JUDGE KWON:  It is your case that that item does not appear in

18     the confidential Annex D?

19             MS. SOLJAN:  That's correct.

20             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, just as you

21     pointed out, I would like to ask the question along those same lines.

22        Q.   Mr. Janc, you say that these persons do not appear in your Annex

23     D, but in your summary, page 1, you made a note that the number of the

24     identified persons of 5.358 were identified based on the list of

25     identified persons you received from the ICMP.  And now I'm going to read

Page 33577

 1     it out to you.  That is actually page 2 of Exhibit P4490.

 2             [In English] "Provided to the ICTY by the ICMP in early

 3     March 2009, D000-2768 and by the BH authorities indicates that the

 4     remains of at least 5.358 individuals recorded as missing following the

 5     fall of Srebrenica have been identified in graves including mass graves,

 6     smaller graves, or individual graves to date."

 7             [Interpretation] Mr. Janc, the names that I showed you, but we

 8     didn't read them out, are the names that appear on the list of the

 9     identified persons which you took as a basis for your summary and your

10     annex.  But in this part that I read to you on page 2, it is obvious that

11     you have established the number of identified persons based on the

12     document marked D000-2768 entered as P4494, Prosecution exhibit; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] We will no longer need this

16     document.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Tapuskovic, do you agree that the person

18     identified on D1372 does not appear in confidential Annex D of Mr. Janc's

19     report?

20             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, Your Honour, but

21     here I'm talking about the number of persons who were identified, and I'm

22     disputing the number of the identified persons which is linked with the

23     ICMP list entered or admitted into evidence and where these specific

24     individuals are being mentioned.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's proceed.

Page 33578

 1             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we now please see

 2     document 1D1371, without being broadcast, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Janc, this is an excerpt made in a similar way from P4494.

 4     We have highlighted and selected data by location.  The location was

 5     Srebrenica hospital, and then we put it on a separate piece of paper.

 6     Can you see that?  The site name indicates Srebrenica hospital.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, is it possible

10     for us to go into private session?

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Of course.  Let's go into private session, please.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 33579











11 Pages 33579-33582 redacted. Private session.















Page 33583

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, on page 17, line

13     7, it says "killed."  I didn't say that.  In the record on identification

14     the word used was "died," and this is how it wasn't translated into

15     English, as died.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you very much for that remark and correction,

17     Ms. Tapuskovic.  Let's proceed.  Thank you.

18             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Janc, we are going to move now to another topic.  Can you

20     please tell me what was the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina regarding the

21     acceptance of identification conducted either by the ICMP or the

22     university clinical centre in Tuzla?  In all cases of identification, can

23     you tell me whether the families affected have accepted these

24     identifications?

25        A.   I am afraid I cannot comment on that.  I have no such

Page 33584

 1     information.

 2        Q.   Right.  Thank you.  Tell me now, are you familiar with the name

 3     of Milorad Trbic?

 4        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with it.

 5        Q.   You know that his name appeared in the indictment in this case at

 6     the time when you started working for the Office of the Prosecutor.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You also know that his case has been deferred to the

 9     judiciary of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10        A.   Yes, I know that.

11        Q.   Did the Prosecutor's Office notify you about the fact that the

12     Prosecutor's Office of Bosnia-Herzegovina issued an amended indictment

13     against him in March of this year?

14        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.  Yes.

15             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we see

16     Document 1D1360 in e-court, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Janc, did you an opportunity to see that indictment?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.

20             MR.  McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry to interject on this, but if she's

21     going to go into the whys and wherefores of charges against Milorad Trbic

22     and open the door to this area, that will open up an incredible amount of

23     information that, you know, the Prosecution will willingly provide, but

24     this is not something at this late stage in the court I don't think

25     anyone wants to get into.

Page 33585

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Do you wish to respond?  Are you going to do

 2     precisely what Mr. McCloskey is worried about or not?  We haven't heard

 3     your questions as yet, so we are not in a position to comment and decide

 4     on Mr. McCloskey's objection or comment until we either hear your

 5     questions or you tell us what your questions are going to be.

 6             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's absolutely

 7     not my intention to go into the substance of this indictment or to

 8     discuss it.  It is a matter for the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I

 9     just asked the witness if he is familiar with it because I want to ask

10     him a question concerning the annex to this indictment, namely the list

11     of identified persons.  As far as the description of charges against

12     Trbic, I don't want to go into that.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's proceed for the time being, and then we see.

14             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  To be

15     cautious, I'd like to say the indictment against Trbic is a public

16     document together with the annex, the list of identified persons, but out

17     of an abundance of caution, because some names coincide with our lists,

18     we should not broadcast the documents that we discuss while talking about

19     this annex.

20             Can we now move on to page 15 of this document in English, and I

21     believe it's page 16 in B/C/S.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Janc, do you know that attached to the indictment against

23     Milorad Trbic there is an annex with a list of identified persons

24     containing 3.737 names as noted in the indictment itself and in the last

25     sentence of the indictment where the annex is mentioned?

Page 33586

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Soljan.

 2             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, before the witness answers, I'd just

 3     like a clarification on the meaning of the word "identified."  Is this a

 4     legal meaning?  Is this a meaning as we have it meaning closed case, or

 5     are we talking about match reports?  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Tapuskovic?  What is the -- if you can

 7     enlighten us.  What is the title of the annex, if it has one?

 8             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we can go to

 9     the indictment itself to see.  That's why I suggested to put the

10     indictment in e-court in the first place.  At the end of the indictment,

11     it is noted attachment Annex A [In English] 37 identified victims.

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  I don't see that.  What I see is Annex A to amended

13     indictment, but I don't see any specific title.  Date identified, ICRC

14     number.  Can -- let me see if I have it at least on here.

15             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] If we can go back to the

16     previous page in e-court, which is the last page of the indictment.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Can we do that, please.

18             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the last

19     sentence.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  I see what you mean.  It says what it says.

21     Then it's a question of one's drawn conclusions.  That's all.  It's

22     indicative that just before it there is an ICRC reference column.

23             Let's continue, Ms. Tapuskovic, please.

24             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's the

25     document as we received it as part of disclosure by the Prosecution.

Page 33587

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  Let's continue.

 2             MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Janc, did you try to make a comparison between this

 4     list of identified persons attached to the indictment against

 5     Milorad Trbic, practically for the same events, with the list of

 6     identified persons that you attached to your summary?

 7        A.   No, I did not, because first time I saw this list was perhaps now

 8     ten days ago.

 9        Q.   Do you know perhaps, this list of 3.737 identified persons was

10     made based on what?

11        A.   As I understand this list, these are the individuals for which

12     the cases are closed or the individuals are declared dead.  What I was

13     using for my report are DNA match reports, which are on the ICMP update,

14     and those is more than just 3.700 as you can see them here.  So the ICMP

15     list is more extended because there are also the open cases, which are

16     still running or in process, but this list includes only the cases which

17     are closed.

18             MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you.  May I now call up

19     in e-court 1D1384.

20        Q.   Mr. Janc, this is a letter that the Prosecutor's Office of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina sent to the Defence at the request -- at our request

22     for an explanation how, and based on what, this list of

23     3.737 identifications was made.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I'd just like to say that in the original of the document in line

Page 33588

 1     2, it says that this is in fact 3.747 individuals, but the annex to the

 2     indictment says 3.737 persons.  I will tell you this:  [In English]

 3     "Annex A is based on certification of that issued by authorised

 4     institutions of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 5             [Interpretation] Do you know, Mr. Janc, which are those qualified

 6     institutions that issued death certificates?

 7        A.   No, I don't know, perhaps the court decision or -- I don't know.

 8     That's speculation.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I'll now show you a document made by the

10     Defence team of Mr. Popovic, and it's Exhibit 1D1385.

11             Having the list of identified persons, which is P4494, made in

12     Excel so it can be searched, we tried to make matches between 1449 and

13     the previous document by making an excerpt from that list and taking only

14     main cases -- the exhibit I meant to mention was P4494.  Anyway, we made

15     an excerpt by taking only main cases.  We removed re-associations, but in

16     the main cases we left all those cases where we have a double name when

17     we supposed that the persons are brothers.  This list made in such a way,

18     we matched with the 3.737 names from the Trbic list, that is, the list

19     that the official authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina accept as the

20     list of identified persons who are their citizens who met their death

21     during the events in Srebrenica.

22             You will see the yellow highlighted name "Trbic" in the left

23     upper corner, and you see the column containing the word "yes," and that

24     means that every person in every horizontal line was matched with the

25     list of identifications that we made, 4494.

Page 33589

 1             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we now move to document

 2     1D1358A.

 3        Q.   You'll see now, Mr. Janc, that this same list is now sorted out

 4     by columns, namely whether there was a match or not, and in the first

 5     column you have each rubric filled in with the word "yes."  We got 5.703

 6     main cases when we made this selection from Exhibit P4494.

 7             If we go to the end of this document, you will see that the word

 8     "yes" does not feature anymore because these persons were not matched.

 9     By reviewing the table, we can see that matches were found for

10     3.849 persons.

11             Mr. Janc, can you conclude from this whether the real ratio of

12     identified persons in the Srebrenica events can be reflected in a number

13     around 3.000 because these are basically persons who were both by the

14     competent authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina accepted as identified,

15     and they were also accepted by the families as identified?

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Soljan.

17             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honour, once again, I'd just like it to be made

18     clear whether when Ms. Tapuskovic refers to the real ratio of identified

19     person, identified person meaning closed cases or simply identified as in

20     matched reports obtained by ICMP.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, and who is going to answer that?  Who do you

22     expect to be in a position to answer that, Ms. Tapuskovic?

23             MS. SOLJAN:  I just don't understand when she says identified,

24     whether she's saying --

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  She's referring to a document.  Let's move on.  I

Page 33590

 1     mean, and then this can become an argument between you later on if

 2     necessary.  But I don't expect Ms. Tapuskovic to be able to give you an

 3     answer.  Perhaps Mr. Janc can, but I doubt it too.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I can just say that I don't agree with you.  I

 5     would only agree if the entire process would be already finished

 6     regarding Srebrenica identifications, so the process is still on.  So far

 7     we have that many identifications, but we expect many more in near

 8     future.

 9             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation]  Mr. Janc, I am going to show

10     you one more document, so can we please now see in e-court document

11     1D1347.

12        Q.   Mr. Janc, this is a letter sent by the government of

13     Republika Srpska to the Defence team providing information required by

14     the Institute For Missing Persons.  I think that this was sent on the

15     18th of August, 2008.

16             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we now move to the next

17     page, please.  Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Janc, you visited this area in 2007; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   As far as I can remember, I may be mistaken, you said on that

21     occasion that you visited the Institute For Missing Persons as well.

22        A.   No.  We were together with them on the field.

23        Q.   Very well.  I stand corrected.

24             I'm going to read out to you what they say:

25             "Further to your memorandum of the above number and date, we

Page 33591

 1     hereby inform that you the institute had details of 3.214 identified

 2     victims of genocide buried in the memorial complex in Potocari and

 3     168 identified victims buried in several local Muslim graveyards.  We

 4     also have information that the DNA laboratory in Tuzla has completed the

 5     preliminary identification of about 2.000 other victims who have still

 6     not been identified by their next of kin."

 7             Mr. Janc, regardless of the fact, whether it is -- the

 8     identification procedure is going on, the fact remains that a certain

 9     number of remains, mortal remains, whose identification was established

10     in preliminary terms was not accepted by their families.  Am I right in

11     concluding that?

12             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Soljan.

13             MS. SOLJAN:  Objection, misstating what's in the letter.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Ms. Tapuskovic.

15             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] I have no comment, Your Honour.

16     I believe I interpreted the contents correctly.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

18             Where do you maintain is the misstatement, Ms. Soljan?

19             MS. SOLJAN:  The letter reads that Tuzla has completed the

20     preliminary identification of about 2.000 other victims who have still

21     not been identified by their next of kin.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  That's different from what you say,

23     Ms. Tapuskovic, in alleging that the absence of the identification is due

24     to it not having been accepted by the families.

25             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm also free to

Page 33592

 1     interpret this document myself.  If the family does not identify the

 2     person, that means that the identification is not accepted.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Janc, irrespective of interpretation or not

 4     interpretation, could you give us an answer to Ms. Tapuskovic's question,

 5     please.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I do not agree with

 7     Ms. Tapuskovic regarding this because what it says here is that these

 8     2.000 victims are still in process.  So this has nothing to do with their

 9     families.

10             MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   But, Mr. Janc, this number of identified persons in the annex to

12     the Trbic indictment, doesn't it tell you that the authorities of

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina do not accept any identifications but the closed

14     cases, that is, those accepted by the families?

15        A.   Yes.  Their official number, what they are talking about, is only

16     the closed cases.  But what I have used was -- were also the cases which

17     are in process.

18             MS. TAPUSKOVIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. Janc, thank you for your

19     answers.

20             Your Honours, I have no further questions of this witness.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Ms. Tapuskovic.

22             Mr. Ostojic, unless you want the break now and start afterwards?

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We can go for a few

24     minutes if the Court permits.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, of course.  I was trying to make your life

Page 33593

 1     more comfortable.

 2             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you very much.  It's not that comfortable,

 3     but thank you.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  I know.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ostojic:

 6        Q.   Good morning, sir.  We have not had the opportunity to meet.  My

 7     name is John Ostojic, and along with Mr. Predrag Nikolic, we represent

 8     Ljubisa Beara in this case.

 9             Sir, I'm going to ask you a couple of preliminary questions.

10     First, I'd like to know, is it fair to state that the number of missing

11     persons includes the people who have perished as a result of land-mines,

12     suicide, or the result of legitimate combat engagements in your analysis?

13        A.   Yes, most probably, yes.

14        Q.   Do you know what number that is?

15        A.   No, I don't know the exact number, but I would say most of the

16     cases are related to the surface remains.

17        Q.   Okay.  With the -- including the surface remains, do you know of

18     any evidence - because I know you've read as your addendum, I think,

19     reflected various witness statements and other documents and testimonies

20     in this case - do you know that the number resulting from combat

21     engagements, suicides, and land-mines is roughly anywhere from 1.000 to

22     2.000?

23        A.   No, I can't say.

24        Q.   Would that be reasonable in your view?

25        A.   Closer to 1.000, perhaps not to 2.000.

Page 33594

 1        Q.   Here is what Mr. Butler said -- you know who he is; right?

 2        A.   Yes, I know.

 3        Q.   He testified on the 23rd of January, 2008, and it starts on

 4     page 20212.  And we had a little discussion about that with him, but

 5     particularly on page 20251, on lines 12 through 14 for my learned

 6     friends, in discussing legitimate combat engagements with respect to the

 7     Bosnian Muslim military column that was going through Susnjari and trying

 8     to make it through Kladanj and Tuzla, he says, quote, in answer to my

 9     question:

10             "Yes, sir.  I mean, I think the 1.000 to 2.000 number would be

11     reasonable with respect to the combat casualties, starting, you know,

12     from 12 July through the life span of the column which is effectively

13     18 July."

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Butler's military analytical

16     assessment that the casualties as a result of the military column was

17     anywhere from 1.000 to 2.000?

18        A.   Based on the information we have now, I still think it's closer

19     to 1.000.

20        Q.   Okay.  And that's based on what, sir?

21        A.   Based on the identifications we have for surface remains, which

22     is 648 now.

23        Q.   Now, you spoke about a region called the Pobudje region; correct?

24        A.   Yes, Pobudje region.

25        Q.   Pobudje region.  Within that region, am I correct that the areas

Page 33595

 1     that are found in that region are Ravni Buljim, Kamenica, Sandici, and

 2     Konjevic Polje?

 3        A.   Yes, this is area from Ravni Buljim up to Konjevic Polje.

 4        Q.   Do you also, sir, know from your investigative duties that in

 5     those four that I've just mentioned - Ravni Buljim, Kamenica, Sandici,

 6     and Konjevic Polje - those were four sites of actual combat engagements

 7     that the VRS engaged with the Bosnian Muslim military column.  Are you

 8     aware of that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, with respect to that specific region, if you will, how many

11     people from the statements that you reviewed perished within that region

12     based on those combat engagements?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   Well, let's take a look at some of those witness statements

15     briefly.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  Let's call into e-court, if we can, 2D667, and If

17     we can just, please, have the first page because I do have a couple of

18     questions on the first page.  Oh, you know, I'm sorry.  If I could just

19     restate the number.  It's a different exhibit.  It's 2D669.  I'll be

20     using 2D667 a little later.

21        Q.   Sir, I just want to point this out to you for the record.  This

22     is a statement taken by the ICTY investigators, and we can see there was

23     a statement taken approximately six months after the events of Srebrenica

24     in July of 1995, namely on the 19th of January, 1996, and it was taken by

25     -- at one point, it was the lead investigator, Mr. Ruez.  Do you see

Page 33596

 1     that?

 2        A.   Yes, I see that.

 3        Q.   This is a statement that I think should not be broadcast because

 4     of the individual's name, and I'm just not sure if we're authorised to

 5     just use it without his permission.  But in any event, this is a

 6     statement that was taken shortly after the events, and I want to point

 7     out the first page, which is page 2 of this document, the witness

 8     statement, and I ask you, have you reviewed this witness statement at all

 9     in preparation of your report or any evidence that you may be giving at

10     any time?

11        A.   Perhaps I have, but I can't say.

12        Q.   Now, if you see in the middle of that page where it starts with

13     witness statement, it talks about the column started to move the next day

14     at 0100 hours.  Do you see that in the centre?

15        A.   Yes, I see that.

16        Q.   And he continues to discuss that they went over the Buljim

17     mountain and arrived at Jaglici at 0500 hours.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, is that in the Pobudje area, region?

20        A.   Yes, this is in Pobudje region, yes.

21        Q.   And then if we look at the last paragraph in this page, he says

22     he was moving towards the front when a very strong shooting started

23     again, coming from all kind of weapons.  Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we flip to the next page, he discusses that he saw

Page 33597

 1     - thank you - on the first line, that he saw many dead bodies around,

 2     and, also, many wounded who had limbs cut due to the shelling.  Do you

 3     see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I see that.

 5        Q.   Now, did anyone try to find out from this witness how many dead

 6     he saw as a result of this combat engagement?

 7        A.   I don't know, but I'm also skeptical how he could tell us this

 8     thing, how many of them.

 9        Q.   Well, because he was there and he saw it.  He observed it.  He

10     was part of it.  He experienced it.  That would be some way to tell us,

11     wouldn't it?

12        A.   Yes, but the total numbers, you know, are always -- you have all

13     of these doubts about their accuracy because it's not that easy to

14     establish how many people is gathered, for example, in one place.

15        Q.   Well, do you know that actually this witness, they did ask him

16     how many people he saw, and he said 2 to 3.000.  Do you know that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me point it out to you.  On the fourth page of

19     this document, this witness discusses another engagement having come back

20     to the Buljim region or the Buljim area, and he says there was another

21     combat engagement.  If we could just -- it's on the bottom of page 4.

22     I'm kind of just skipping around, but you're welcome to look at the whole

23     document at the break or at any time.

24             He says:  "We then arrived in the forest where the second ambush

25     occurred in order to try to identify some body.  Bodies were still all

Page 33598

 1     around.  I recognised bodies of two men who were with me at the

 2     beginning, at their clothes and their bags."

 3             Now, the next paragraph is really what I want to ask you about

 4     before the break.  He says also further --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Next page.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, next page.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, just to get this question out and then -- I

 9     realise that.

10        Q.   "We did not count the bodies we saw, but I would estimate that

11     there were about 2 to 3.000 bodies."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, I see that.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. OSTOJIC:  I guess it's the break, but I'll follow up on that

16     at the break.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  We will have a break now of 25

18     minutes' duration.  Thank you.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Incidentally, before we proceed, we are sitting

22     pursuant to Rule 15 bis this morning.  Judge Prost couldn't be with us.

23     Thank you.

24             Mr. Ostojic, you may proceed, please.  Thank you.

25             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 33599

 1        Q.   Sir, is there any reason that you know of that we should doubt

 2     what this witness on Exhibit 2D669 had reported to the ICTY investigator

 3     in January 1996?

 4        A.   Yes.  First of all, we have the number of surface remains

 5     collected in this area, and you can find the total of them.  It's a

 6     little bit more than 500 in this Pobudje area so far identified, which

 7     you can find it in my report.

 8             Second, I'm wondering how accurate this number is.  In order to

 9     assess the number you need some special, I would say, training.  It's not

10     that easy.  As police officer, I can say that there is a special training

11     in order to assess how many people is gathered, for example, in one

12     place.  So -- and if you are not trained in that, so you can be -- you

13     can be wrong easily.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, what --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  One moment.  Do you have a problem?  Mr.

16     Borovcanin, Mr. Nikolic?  It's okay?  No if you have a problem, speak up.

17     All right.  Thank you.

18             Let's proceed.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:

20        Q.   Well, what endeavours did the Office of the Prosecution take in

21     order to determine out of the numbers that you've put in your report, the

22     5.300 or so, how many were actually as a result of casualties from

23     walking over land-mines?  Did you do that analysis?

24        A.   No, I did not.

25        Q.   Do you know of anyone who did at the Office of the Prosecution?

Page 33600

 1        A.   I think no one did it.

 2        Q.   Okay.  How about did anyone do an investigation or at least

 3     undertake the process to determine how many people from this military

 4     column that was leaving from Susnjari, how many died as a result of

 5     self-inflicted wounds or suicide?

 6        A.   No, there were no such investigation.

 7        Q.   Okay.  How about as a result of these legitimate combat

 8     engagements?  When the VRS attacked the legitimate column of military

 9     men, did anybody investigate to determine how many actually died as a

10     result of that combat engagement?

11        A.   No, I'm not aware of any such investigation.

12        Q.   Not doing any of the investigation on at least those three and

13     other areas, did you investigate whether or not any of those people who

14     died as a result of either suicide, mines, land-mines, or combat

15     engagements, whether anyone buried those individuals?

16        A.   Yeah, I was trying to find that fact, but there were instances

17     regarding this Glogova, what I mentioned with my corrigendum, but apart

18     from that there were not a lot of such information.

19        Q.   We did look at the evidence relating to Glogova and the Kravica

20     warehouse, and we're familiar with those facts, but with respect to any

21     other site, is it fair to state that no such investigation was conducted

22     or undertaken to determine whether or not the people within the graves

23     that were found - not just surface remains, sir - were actually

24     casualties as a result of land-mines, suicide, or combat engagements?

25        A.   I don't think that no investigation was done regarding that.  We

Page 33601

 1     have a lot of expert reports regarding the mass graves, and what are

 2     their conclusions, you can find there.

 3        Q.   I've looked at that, and I think you gave us a double negative

 4     which makes it unclear for me.  What do you mean when you say "I don't

 5     think that no investigation was done ..."?

 6        A.   That I'm not aware of.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, are you aware of the United Nations report dated the

 8     17th of July, 1995, by a Mr. Ken Biser?

 9        A.   I think I've seen this report, yes.

10        Q.   Have you included this at all in any part of your analysis?

11        A.   No, I don't think so.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  Let's bring it up, please.  And I've got to find

13     the exhibit number.  Sorry.  I usually write the exhibit numbers on the

14     actual exhibit.  I failed to do it on this one.  Forgive me.  It's 1D374.

15     Thank you, and I apologise.

16        Q.   Is this the report you are referring to, sir?  Do you see it,

17     July 17th, "from" on the right-hand side in the second box?

18        A.   Yes, I think so.

19        Q.   Now, if we could flip to the second page of this document.  And

20     here, Mr. Biser is reporting based on the information that he collected,

21     because we are talking about what they knew contemporaneous to the

22     events, if you will.  He says under paragraph number one, third bullet

23     point, is what I'd like to focus on.  Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes, I see that.

25        Q.   He says:

Page 33602

 1             "Up to 3.000 were killed on the way, mostly by mines and BSA

 2     engagements."

 3             Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I see that.

 5        Q.   Well, what did the Office of the Prosecution, you being an

 6     investigator there, do to determine or rule out that fact?

 7        A.   I'm not ruling out that fact that this has happened, but the

 8     problem here is how many of them were indeed killed.

 9        Q.   But if we want to be fair and objective taking your number of

10     5.000 plus, of those 5.000, 3.000 based on evidence from this witness

11     statement and others that we have that we'll show you, as well as the

12     United Nations person here, he says that up to 3.000 were killed on the

13     way from two sources, mines, and he says BSA, which is the

14     Bosnian Serb Army, engagements.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you have any evidence to dispute that?

17        A.   We have evidence how many of them have been found on the ground.

18        Q.   Just surface remains?

19        A.   Surface remains, yes.

20        Q.   Well, what about those in the graves, the multiple graves that

21     you found?

22        A.   The biggest grave in that area is Glogova grave, and we know

23     through various witness statements which bodies were buried there, so I

24     am not aware of any other mass graves in that area.

25        Q.   Okay.  Well, look at -- it also goes on in this document that

Page 33603

 1     will be dealt with that some committed suicide.  Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you know how many?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Do you know the manner in which suicide was committed by the

 6     Bosnian Muslims in that column?

 7        A.   No, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Do you know that the statements in the possession of the

 9     Prosecution indicate that there were various methods as well as falling

10     on top of a grenade and turning the grenade on?

11        A.   Yes, I know for that, yes.

12        Q.   Well, what other means do you know of, sir?

13        A.   These are the main that you mentioned now.

14        Q.   I only mentioned one.  What other means were there?

15        A.   I think that there was also instances where they hanged

16     themselves, or else --

17        Q.   How about self-inflicted wounds from a pistol or a gun?

18        A.   Yes, I think I do remember those also.

19        Q.   Of course.  And when you look at the autopsy reports or the

20     pathology reports when they identify cause of death and manner of death,

21     they describe it as a wound to the skull or to the temple area.  Now, can

22     you exclude, sir, or did you try to exclude the possibility that the

23     person who the pathologists have identified as sustaining a bullet wound

24     to the head died as a result of suicide?

25        A.   No.  Just based on that, you cannot exclude that.

Page 33604

 1        Q.   Can you exclude, sir, when you find other manner or causes of

 2     death as bullets on a body or a corpse, if you will.  That it was as a

 3     result of legitimate combat engagement because there was an exchange of

 4     fire?

 5        A.   So depends how many of those have indeed been found there with

 6     the same wounds or in the grave.

 7        Q.   And I agree it does.  I don't have the burden of proof.  The

 8     pathologist certainly testified here, as I'm sure you are aware.  Out of

 9     the 5.000 plus, 5.300 plus that you've identified, is there any reason,

10     sir, that you can think of with the exception of Glogova, which we talked

11     about, and the Kravica warehouse that we read your addendum with respect

12     to that and the number that you identified there, is there any reason why

13     we cannot include and adopt the figure; although Mr. Butler says it's

14     1 to 2.000, this witness says he saw 2 to 3.000, the UN reported on the

15     17th of July that it was up to 3.000, that in your list up to 3.000 if

16     not more - and I suggest to you more - are included in the numbers that

17     you're providing for us in this report?

18        A.   No, I don't agree with you.

19        Q.   Why not, if you didn't do the analysis to determine that or rule

20     it out?

21        A.   Because the reports from the exhumations and the reports done by

22     the experts shows the opposite, so that they were -- these people were

23     killed, and also, evidences found inside these graves are related or

24     linked with the execution points.

25        Q.   Do you know, sir, that the pathologists were unable to rule that

Page 33605

 1     out?

 2        A.   Yes, you can't rule that out in 100 per cent.

 3        Q.   Now, let's talk about your page 35 and 36 of your report where

 4     you list these execution sites and the graves that you found.  Do you

 5     have that?

 6        A.   Yes, I have.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, the first one you identify as an execution site at

 8     Kravica; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.

10        Q.   And how many graves do you identify there, 16 under that section?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, did you try to determine whether or not in any of

13     the graves other than Glogova 1 and 2, whether or not those graves are

14     resulted from the buried men and victims as a result of either

15     land-mines, suicide or legitimate combat engagements?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Okay.  Well, if it's true what this witness said and other

18     witnesses that you've interviewed, your office, if it's true what

19     Mr. Butler said, and if it's true what the UN report identifies, up to

20     3.000, where do you think those men were buried if we know that there

21     were combat engagements in the Pobudje region in Ravni Buljim, Kamenica,

22     Sandici, and Konjevic Polje?  Where do you think those people were

23     buried?

24        A.   I think most of them just stayed there.

25        Q.   Based on what?  Based on your interviews with the witnesses or

Page 33606

 1     based on speculation?

 2        A.   No, it's not speculation.  The burial process in the -- in the

 3     Glogova was finished up to 17, most of it.  So we have only two graves

 4     after the 17 of July.  So grave E and grave L where we have in total

 5     18 victims, so most of the work was done by 17 of July.  So based on the

 6     information and witness statements and their testimonies here in this

 7     courtroom, most of these -- most of the victims buried in Glogova are

 8     coming from Kravica.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And I did I think say, and forgive me if I didn't, let's

10     take Glogova out to the side for one second.  I know you want to talk

11     about it, and I recognise what you've done in Glogova, but with respect

12     to the other grave sites, I'm saying you did not do anything to determine

13     or evaluate whether or not based on the fact there were at least four and

14     possibly five combat engagements in that area, the Pobudje region, that

15     you didn't determine whether or not those people buried in those graves

16     were casualties as a result of this legitimate combat engagement or other

17     means.  You didn't rule it out, isn't that true?

18        A.   Yes, that's true.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, the same can be said for the next region which I

20     think you have identified or I thought it was the next -- was the Udrc,

21     U-r-d-c [sic].  I'm having very trouble this morning, sorry.  U-r-d-c.

22     You know there was an ambush there as well?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Are you familiar with what region that belongs to?

25        A.   You mean in my report?

Page 33607

 1        Q.   Just generally, do you know in what region based on your analysis

 2     does this fall in?

 3        A.   This is the region I would say next to or close to Pobudje.  Just

 4     across the road is Udrc.

 5        Q.   How about Snagovo?  What region does that belong to?

 6        A.   It's south-west of Zvornik, so it is between Udrc and Zvornik.

 7        Q.   Are you familiar with whether or not there was an ambush at

 8     Snagovo?

 9        A.   No, I'm not aware of it.

10        Q.   Okay.  There was.  Are you aware of an ambush at Orahovac?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Are you aware of an ambush at Baljkovica?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know how many people died in all of those ambushes, sir,

15     as a result of legitimate combat engagements?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Why not?

18        A.   It's not easy to establish how many.

19        Q.   Okay.  Well, can you give us a best estimate as opposed it to a

20     precise figure?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know if any of the people who died as a result of those

23     legitimate combat engagements, mines, or suicide in those other ambushes,

24     whether or not they're included in your report?

25        A.   I don't know that because I don't have their names.

Page 33608

 1        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me ask you about that.  You think really that

 2     the families of the victims whether they died or perished as a result of

 3     execution or legitimate combat engagement or suicide or land-mines, do

 4     you think when they reported that they were missing they were able to

 5     tell you what their manner of death was?

 6        A.   No, I think not.

 7        Q.   Of course not, because they just know that they're missing.  So

 8     they don't know how, where, or when they died.  That was really your job,

 9     wasn't it?

10        A.   Yes, part of it, yes.

11        Q.   Now, we know from some of the evidence that we heard that there

12     were, I think, and I don't mean to misstate it, but I think that there

13     were two specific graves where there were a significant amount of

14     ligatures found at or around the grave-site or on the particular bodies

15     or on the corpses of the individuals that were exhumed.  Are you familiar

16     with that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, that is an indication, you'll agree with me, of an

19     execution, wouldn't you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know what the total number of those corpses or victims

22     were and the graves where there were actually evidence of ligatures and

23     blind-folds?  Do you know what that total is?

24        A.   Not from the top of my head.  I would have to consult

25     Dean Manning's reports.

Page 33609

 1        Q.   Okay.  Do you know it's roughly anywhere between 5 and 700?

 2     Would that sound accurate to you?

 3        A.   Yes, I think so.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Ostojic, could you kindly slow down --

 5             MR. OSTOJIC:  I will.  I'm sorry.

 6             JUDGE AGIUS:  -- and allow a short pause between question and

 7     answer.  Thank you.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:

 9        Q.   Now, sir, let's go back to your report on page 36.  Do you have

10     it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Going back to the Kravica section where you identify 16 graves.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, we talked about Glogova, and other people will ask you

15     specifically relating to that.  The balance of these graves, when you

16     bold the name, does that mean it's a primary grave?

17        A.   Can you repeat?  What do you mean?

18        Q.   Yeah, sure.  Like, we see Glogova 1 and 2 as being bold;

19     Ravnice 1 is bold; Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6 are bold; the balance of them are

20     not bold.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   What does that mean?

23        A.   These bolded ones were exhumed by the ICTY.

24        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, with respect to the graves that you found

25     other than Glogova that were exhumed and investigated, if you look at the

Page 33610

 1     numbers, the numbers are the people who were identified that were found

 2     in the graves; correct?

 3        A.   Yeah, that's correct.

 4        Q.   Did you ever go back to try to determine knowing that the numbers

 5     were identified to match to determine if these people died, based on

 6     either the pathology report or witness statements or any other sources

 7     you may have, as to whether or not they died in the manner of death of

 8     land-mine explosions, suicide, or legitimate combat engagements?

 9        A.   No, but this can be done.

10        Q.   How long would it have taken you to do that?

11        A.   I think a lot, but -- and I also doubt that I'm a proper expert

12     to do that.

13        Q.   Well, who would be?  Because you said earlier, I thought, that

14     it's the person who saw and experienced and was in the column, he

15     probably was wrong in his estimate, but it takes an expert to do it, such

16     as yourself.  Who other than you would be able it to do that analysis?

17        A.   Perhaps a pathologist.

18        Q.   Did you ever review the material with respect to where the

19     land-mines were in the area, particularly as it may relate to the route

20     that the Bosnia Muslim column took from Susnjari?

21        A.   I know I am aware of one at Ravni Buljim or around that place.

22        Q.   Okay.  And then --

23        A.   There were also others, but I cannot remember now.

24        Q.   Okay.  Who did that analysis for the OTP as to where the

25     land-mines were and their locations?

Page 33611

 1        A.   I don't know.  I do remember these places mentioned by the

 2     survivors.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  Let's look at your P2110, please, and with the

 4     Court's permission, we'd ask the usher's assistance because I'm going to

 5     have him possibly mark this exhibit for me.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, this, sir, is a map I think that you drew up showing the

 7     route of the Bosnian Muslim column.

 8             MR. OSTOJIC:  If we could just enlarge it if you don't mind.  I

 9     think they're both the same, so we just need to have the one, if it's

10     permissible, in either language.  It should be the same.

11        Q.   Did you make this map, sir?

12        A.   No, no, I didn't.  This map was prepared by Jean-Rene Ruez and

13     used during his testimony, I guess.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, I want to stick to these regions that you've helped

15     us identify and the Pobudje region, which includes obviously Kravica and

16     several of the other places like Kamenica, Ravni Buljim, Sandici, and

17     Konjevic Polje.  Can you, with the Court's permission and the assistance

18     of the usher, circle that region for me?

19        A.   Yes, I can.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And if you don't mind putting there PR so that we'll

21     know it's the Pobudje region.

22        A.   PR.

23        Q.   Yeah, P for Pobudje and then R for region.  Would that be okay?

24        A.   Inside?

25        Q.   Anywhere you'd like.

Page 33612

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Now, where was the ambush -- or then VRS engagement, combat

 3     engagement at Ravni Buljim?  Do you see that on the map?  Just put an X

 4     on it.

 5        A.   Yeah, it's close to I think Jaglici or somewhere here.

 6        Q.   Yeah, just put an X.

 7        A.   Okay.

 8        Q.   And how about Kamenica?  Where was that?

 9        A.   Kamenica is close to Kravica.  Should I put it --

10        Q.   Yeah, you can put a Y for that.

11        A.   Okay.

12        Q.   How about Sandici?

13        A.   Here is Kamenica, and Sandici, I put it S.  It's around Sandici.

14        Q.   Okay.  And how about Konjevic Polje?

15        A.   It's up here in Konjevic Polje.

16        Q.   Okay.  Is that part of the Pobudje region?

17        A.   Yes, I'm calling the Pobudje region, yes.

18        Q.   Now, within those four areas where those ambushes or engagements

19     occurred, do you know how far the distance is from the graves that you

20     cite in your report on page 36, the 16 or so that we've seen, do you know

21     the distance from where these combat engagements occurred and where the

22     graves are?

23        A.   Yes.  We know Glogova is very close to Kravica.

24        Q.   Yeah, we know.

25        A.   Then, also, Ravnice is up there close to Glogova above Kravica.

Page 33613

 1     And then we have secondary graves Bljeceva and Budak, so for Bljeceva

 2     they are left of Srebrenica where you can see -- no, sorry.  Potocari.

 3     They are left of Potocari.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5        A.   1, 2, and 3, and also --

 6        Q.   How about Zeleni Jadar?

 7        A.   And also Budak ones are here.  And then we have down on the map

 8     you can see Zeleni Jadar, and they are around -- all of those same graves

 9     is down there.

10        Q.   Can you put a ZJ for Zeleni Jadar, please.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, going to the next region keeping with this map

13     which you have as an execution site, but I wanted to ask you actually

14     about Udrc.  Where is that?

15        A.   Udrc is -- I'll make a circle.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   Should be here somewhere.  I'll put U for Udrc.

18        Q.   Very logical.  Thank you for that.  And how about Snagovo?  Where

19     is that region, if you will, because that's where a combat engagement

20     occurred as well.

21        A.   Yes.  So I'll mark it like area here, up there.

22        Q.   How about Orahovac?  What was that region?  We have evidence

23     there was a combat engagement there as well.

24        A.   This region I would call Baljkovica.

25        Q.   Okay.  So you're calling Orahovac and Baljkovica the same region?

Page 33614

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Fair enough.  Just so we can understand it.  And you know there

 3     were at least two ambushes, one at Orahovac and one at Baljkovica.

 4     You're familiar with that, I think, you've said; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Just circle that area that we'll called Baljkovica, and

 7     identify it, please, with a B.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And I think Snagovo you did not identify, but if we could use SG

10     because you've already used the letter S for Sandici.  That might be --

11     help us later.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Now, based on these four regions, if you will, I think, do you

14     know what the closest grave was vis-a-vis the combat engagement?  That

15     is, the combat engagement happened, let's say, at Konjevic Polje.  What

16     was the closest grave-site near or around Konjevic Polje that was

17     exhumed?

18        A.   We having Konjevic Polje itself, and Nova Kasaba, several graves.

19        Q.   Did you take into account in your analysis or your review that

20     the people buried in those graves may have been, probably were,

21     casualties as a result of legitimate combat engagement?

22        A.   I don't think so in these graves, like I mentioned, in or around

23     Nova Kasaba that we have those cases because we have -- they have been

24     some of them ligatured and found in these graves.

25        Q.   Which -- where were the two graves found where there was a

Page 33615

 1     predominant amount of evidence and ligatures and blindfolds?  Do you

 2     remember that?

 3        A.   No, I would like to consult the report, but I think Nova Kasaba,

 4     1996 and 1999.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Any others?

 6        A.   In this area or Nova Kasaba specifically?

 7        Q.   In any area.

 8        A.   We have also in Cerska.

 9        Q.   What region does that belong to?

10        A.   It is the region close to Udrc.

11        Q.   What other area?

12        A.   I think we have in the northern part those cases, also, which is

13     around Orahovac and Kozluk and Brano.

14        Q.   Well, whose job is it, sir, to rule out that in those graves

15     where you found the corpses that they were not part of the victims who

16     suffered as a result of these legitimate military combat engagements?

17     Whose job do you think that is?

18        A.   For example, pathologist, forensic pathologist, those kind of

19     experts.

20        Q.   My question was a little broader.  It's -- first of all, you

21     don't dispute with me that it's the job of the Prosecution and the

22     investigators to rule that out and to exclude that; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Because, why, you carry the burden of proof?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 33616

 1        Q.   Okay.  It's not my job, but I can I sure you of that.  Now, what

 2     did you or anybody that you know of based on your knowledge do to exclude

 3     that probability, that within the numbers of 5.300 plus that you're

 4     offering, that in fact 3.000 plus or so are part or not part of that

 5     report?  What steps did you take?

 6        A.   Me personally, I cannot tell you, but I think --

 7        Q.   Well, you personally -- oh, sorry.  You personally didn't do

 8     anything, right, with respect to that issue, so you could tell us.

 9        A.   With respect to that issue, perhaps not, but I have reviewed a

10     lot of these reports.

11        Q.   As I understand that.  I'm not taking that away from you.  I'm

12     sorry for overlapping.  But you personally didn't.  I'm asking, do you

13     know of anyone else who did?  We know what Mr. Butler said in this vein,

14     and he said he was unaware of anyone conducting that type of analysis or

15     process.  Do you know of anyone who did or may have?

16        A.   No, I'm not aware of it.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  If you could just sign or initial the bottom

18     and date it, of this exhibit, P2110, please.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  And thank you, Madam Usher.

20             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  If we could save that document, Mr. President, I'd

22     appreciate it, or whoever.  And now I'd like to turn to another exhibit,

23     which is P4500.  It's identified as a "tracking chart for Srebrenica

24     cases."

25        Q.   Sir, do you have the document in front of you?

Page 33617

 1        A.   Yes.  I have.

 2        Q.   Who created this document?

 3        A.   I think this is ICMP document.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Did you rely on this document at all in your analysis, or

 5     in your report?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Why not?

 8        A.   Because I was using their data, list of data they have provided

 9     to us.

10        Q.   Okay.

11        A.   Particular DNA match reports.

12        Q.   Do you know what the position is of Mr. Parsons from the ICMP as

13     to the reliability of this document?

14        A.   Not really.

15        Q.   Okay.  I wasn't sure if you were listening to some of his

16     testimony.  That's why I ask.

17             Look at the total section of this document.  Do you see it down

18     towards the bottom of the page?

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  And if we could highlight or enlarge that, please.

20        Q.   Do you see the number of bodies buried that they identify?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   How could you reconcile that number with the number that you

23     report of 5.300 plus in your report?

24        A.   The same answer as before.  These are closed and completed cases.

25        Q.   Okay.  And this was as of April 10th, 2009, this report, is it

Page 33618

 1     not?

 2        A.   Yes, indeed.

 3        Q.   Now, if we can look at another exhibit which was in your, I

 4     think, Annex B of your report, which is the DNA connection chart.  Do you

 5     remember that?

 6        A.   DNA connections are Annex D.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And it's the last page of that report, I think, of

 8     that annex.

 9             MR. OSTOJIC:  So if we can please have up on the e-court, the

10     last page of annex --

11             THE WITNESS:  C.

12             MR. OSTOJIC:  C.

13        Q.   As they are bringing it up, I'll ask you this, since you have it

14     in front of you, sir.  Who created this chart?

15        A.   It's not yet in front of me, but this chart was created by our

16     analyst.

17        Q.   Well, I know it's not on the e-court, but you turned to the page

18     in your report, and you have it in front of you, right?  You have it

19     physically from your report.  I see it; right?

20        A.   Yes, correct.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now we have it on the e-court as well.  What analyst

22     created this chart?

23        A.   The analyst from our team, Panayota Vassou.

24        Q.   With respect to this chart, sir, can you just help me understand

25     it just a little bit better when you try to identify.  Like, you say it's

Page 33619

 1     DNA and forensic evidence connections.  Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is the bottom section, if we take the left-hand side, and you see

 4     that it's Cancari Road mass graves; do you see that, the box captioned

 5     that way?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And they have instances where they identify, for example,

 8     24 cases in between Cancari Road 12 and Cancari Road 11.  Do you see

 9     that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now, how -- above that immediately where they talk about

12     the soil and pollen samples, blind-folds and ligatures, do you see that

13     section?

14        A.   Yes, I see that.

15        Q.   They identified 20 cases in the red right-hand side of that

16     little area.  Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What does that mean, 20 cases?

19        A.   20 cases mean that we have 20 connections, DNA connections

20     between Branjevo farm and Cancari Road secondary mass graves.

21        Q.   20 out of how many?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could you help me find the --

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, I'm sorry.  I tried to walk you through it.

24     It's on this exhibit on the left-hand side.  If we go from the beginning

25     where it says "DNA and forensic evidence connections," immediately below

Page 33620

 1     that is a box which says "Branjevo farm (Pilica)."  Immediately below

 2     that, we see a 6 figure with a blue and red mark showing the pollen and

 3     soil samples, and right below that there's the words "20 cases," and it's

 4     on the left-hand side on the top half.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Proceed, Mr. Ostojic.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:

 7        Q.   And I'm sorry, sir.  I missed your answer on that.  What does the

 8     20 cases mean?

 9        A.   That you have 20 connections between Branjevo Pilica farm --

10     Branjevo farm and Cancari Road.

11        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.  I thought my question was out of how many, and I

12     didn't get that answer.  20 cases out of how many?

13        A.   You know, it's not easy to say because the connections are

14     different, as I explained already, than actual identifications, so I

15     don't know out of how many, but I would have to consult the DNA -- the

16     ICMP update regarding this to see how many cases is in Branjevo in all,

17     in total.

18        Q.   About in total how many were on the Cancari Road mass graves?

19        A.   The same answer.  I would have to consult.

20        Q.   And would your same answer be -- would your answer be the same as

21     a result for each one of these sections, like Kozluk and the Cancari Road

22     mass graves as well as Lazete and the Hodzici Road mass graves,

23     et cetera?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  The answer would be the same.

25        Q.   So just explain to me, what's the purpose of this chart, or what

Page 33621

 1     are you trying to establish?

 2        A.   The purpose of this chart is to show, to present how many DNA

 3     connections we have between primary and secondary graves, between primary

 4     and primary graves, and secondary, secondary graves.  So how many bodies

 5     or part of the bodies have been found, of one individual have been found

 6     on two different locations.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, when we have the chart in front of us,

 9     so let's take a look at Cancari Road mass graves.  Am I correct in

10     reading that there's no DNA connection in relation to Cancari Road 1, 4,

11     and 8?

12             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, yes, you are correct.  Cancari Road 1

13     is not exhumed yet.  Cancari Road 4, 6, and 8 were just recently exhumed,

14     so we are waiting for first results from the ICMP.  So that's most

15     probably why we don't have any connections between these graves.

16             MR. OSTOJIC:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  But in your Annex A, Cancari Road 4,

18     Kamenica 4, you said -- you referred to DNA profiles, unique profiles?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  For Cancari -- we have for Cancari Road 4 the

20     unique DNA profiles already, yes, some of them.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So which means that there has been found no DNA

22     connection whatsoever in relation to that grave?

23             THE WITNESS:  Not yet.

24             JUDGE KWON:  What do you mean by "not yet"?

25             THE WITNESS:  Because the process is still ongoing.  As you can

Page 33622

 1     see here, we have only ten, ten unique profiles so far identified from

 2     Cancari Road 4, so the process is still going on.  And probably with next

 3     update, we'll have much more results regarding these three sites which

 4     were exhumed by the end of last year.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  I'm going to move away from this

 7     document, Honourable Judge Kwon, so I don't know if you needed any

 8     further ...

 9        Q.   Sir, can I show you now 2D702, and it should not be broadcast

10     because, again, it's a witness statement from an individual who we did

11     not obtain express permission to utilise, so in the abundance of caution

12     we should not broadcast that.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  We are being informed that it's not in e-court.

14             MR. OSTOJIC:  It was sent subsequently as an addendum to the

15     exhibit list, but I do have a hard copy if the witness would like to look

16     at it.

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  I think that will make --

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Before I started my cross --

19             JUDGE AGIUS:  In the meantime, it will hasten things up, speed a

20     things up.

21             MR. OSTOJIC:  I think she should show it to the Office of the

22     Prosecution because there are some markings on it.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Show it to the Prosecutor, please.

24             Do you have any objections, Ms. Soljan, with using it?

25             MS. SOLJAN:  No, Your Honours.

Page 33623

 1             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  So let's put it on the ELMO and proceed, and

 2     in the meantime we'll check whether it has turned up in e-court.

 3             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  Just the first page first, please.

 4        Q.   Do you see that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I see that.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, that's another witness statement that was given by a

 7     person who was in the military column, and it was given to the ICTY

 8     investigators, and it's a little more contemporaneous to the date of the

 9     events than the prior statement we saw in January of 1996, is it not?

10        A.   Yes, indeed.

11        Q.   In fact, this one is one month or so after the events,

12     August 23rd, 1995; right?

13        A.   Yes, you're right.

14        Q.   Did you review this statement and the other tens and I think

15     hundreds of statements from Bosnian Muslims who reported the ambushes and

16     the number of individuals who died as a result of legitimate combat

17     engagements?

18        A.   Perhaps I did.

19             MR. OSTOJIC:  Okay.  Now, if we could turn to the fourth page of

20     this document, I believe, and it's highlighted in green.

21        Q.   This witness says that during an ambush that he witnessed,

22     observed, that 500 men were killed as a result of legitimate combat

23     engagement.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Maybe I could look at the document and point

25     directly where I believe it is.  Thank you, Madam Usher.

Page 33624

 1        Q.   And it's -- I highlighted it and put -- do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes, I see that, yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well, did you take this -- is there a -- strike that.  Was

 4     there any reason that you know of or that you found that we cannot

 5     reasonably rely on this statement given to the ICTY in August of 1995 of

 6     this individual?

 7        A.   No.  We can rely on the -- on his statement, but, you know,

 8     again, it's the question of the accuracy of the number.

 9        Q.   We know that, and you've said that, but you've done nothing and

10     you know of no one at the Office of the Prosecution who did anything to

11     determine the accuracy of the number; isn't that true?

12        A.   Yes.  In part you are right.

13             MR. OSTOJIC:  Now, let's quickly look - thank you for that, I'm

14     done with that document - at 2D667, please.

15        Q.   Sir, I'm not showing you all the witness statements.  I just want

16     to make sure to tell everyone I'm not going through all the witness

17     statements that are on EDS with respect to these issues, but there are

18     literally hundreds.

19             So 2D667.  Again, sir, as it's coming up, it's a witness

20     statement from a Bosnian Muslim who was in the military column from

21     Susnjari; statement was given on the 9th of June, 1999, to the ICTY.

22        A.   Yes, I see that.

23        Q.   Okay.  What I'd like to do is to turn to page 4 of that document,

24     and it's the third full paragraph where it begins:  "Around 1400 hours

25     ..." Do you see that?  And it's the really the last sentence of that

Page 33625

 1     paragraph that I wanted to ask you about.  It says:

 2             "Some of the people, there were approximately ten of them, who

 3     did not want to surrender, committed suicide.  I saw them lie down and

 4     put hand-grenades under their stomach.  They blew themselves up."

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Based on your review, if you had done it, do you know how many

 8     people committed suicide who were on the Bosnian Muslim column once they

 9     left Susnjari?

10        A.   No, because we don't have in possession all of the autopsy

11     reports regarding these surface remains, so we can't say anything about

12     it, so I don't have any information.

13        Q.   And when do you expect out of those 500 or so, I think you said,

14     surface remains that you would get the information from the autopsy or

15     pathologist?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Okay.  Did you review the pathology reports as to the cause and

18     manner of death of the bodies that they did identify?

19        A.   Yes, some of them, but not all of them.

20        Q.   Excluding Kravica and Glogova, and excluding the two sites where

21     we saw a significant amount of ligatures and blind-folds, do you agree

22     with me that the cause and manner of death identified by the pathologist

23     is vague?

24        A.   I can't comment on that.

25        Q.   Well, why not?  You're an investigator.  You gave them the

Page 33626

 1     direction to provide that information.  If they say someone died as a

 2     result of a bullet wound, does that answer the question as to whether or

 3     not that person died from a self-inflicted wound, a wound from one of his

 4     colleagues, a wound from a combat engagement, or a wound from an

 5     executor?  All those four or five possibilities exist, do they not?

 6        A.   Yes, they do, but now in order to -- to clarify the issue, you

 7     have to look into this particular case from different perspectives.  You

 8     have to find more, for example, information about this particular

 9     individual; not only the reports, also the information statements and

10     whatever evidence you can find on this person, and then you can maybe

11     perhaps establish the manner and cause of death.

12        Q.   So are you saying, sir, that in fact you think it may not be

13     vague but that it's incomplete?

14        A.   Yes, perhaps.

15        Q.   Well, try to be more definitive.  You're an investigator giving

16     evidence in an International Criminal Tribunal.  You made a report in

17     this case.  Not perhaps; it's without a doubt, isn't it, that the path

18     report does not exclude or rule out any of the possibilities that I'm

19     suggesting that the numbers that you've given us are indeed inflated and

20     include individuals who died as a result of sustaining injuries from

21     land-mines, self-inflicted wounds, and/or injuries from legitimate combat

22     engagements.

23        A.   Yes, you're right.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

Page 33627

 1             Mr. Bourgon?

 2             MR. BOURGON:  I have no questions at this time, Mr. President.

 3     Thank you.

 4             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. Bourgon.

 5             Mr. Lazarevic?  Lectern, please.  How long do you estimate the

 6     duration of your cross-examination, Mr. Lazarevic?

 7             MR. LAZAREVIC:  I assume it will take more than one hour and a

 8     half, a bit more.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.  Go ahead.

10             MR. LAZAREVIC:  The rest of the day, probably.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Anybody else cross-examining the witness?

12     Ms. Fauveau?

13             MS. FAUVEAU:  [Interpretation] No more than 10 minutes.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  So we should make an effort to finish with the

15     witness today.  I think it is still possible unless there is a

16     re-examination.  Mr. Haynes I think last time reserved his position, but

17     wasn't quite ...

18             MR. HAYNES:  Yes.  I mean, Mr. Ostojic has stolen a good deal of

19     my thunder, but I will take some instructions at the next break.  It's

20     likely I will take five or ten minutes.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  So it's not likely that we finish your

22     testimony today then.  We'll continue tomorrow because we have barely an

23     hour and a half or just less than that.

24             Mr. Lazarevic.

25             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 33628

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Janc.  Good morning to

 3     everyone in the courtroom.  My name is Aleksandar Lazarevic, and together

 4     with my colleagues from the Defence team, I represent Mr. Borovcanin in

 5     the case before this Tribunal, and I will be putting questions to you on

 6     his behalf.

 7             I understand that you understand and speak B/C/S very well.  You

 8     will understand my questions without interpretation and will not need to

 9     wait for it.  Let us make an effort, therefore, to avoid answering too

10     soon or overlapping.

11             Can we now begin?

12        A.   Yes, we can.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.

14             Mr. Janc, from your supplemented summary, P4490 together with the

15     confidential annex with a different number, I concluded from the cover

16     page that it was submitted on the 13th [Realtime transcript read in

17     error, "15th"] of March, 2009; correct?

18        A.   Yes, correct.

19        Q.   Sorry, let me correct the transcript.  I said 13th of March, not

20     15.

21             Your colleagues from the OTP, did they have an occasion to

22     familiarise themselves with the contents of your summary before it was

23     disclosed to the Defence?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you tell me, who was the person in the Office of the

Page 33629

 1     Prosecutor who reviewed your summary before it was disclosed to the

 2     Defence?

 3        A.   I have sent it to Ms. Soljan and Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Ms. Soljan and Mr. Vanderpuye, when they reviewed

 5     your summary and before it was disclosed to the Defence, did they have

 6     any comments or critique, namely that some allegations are inaccurate or

 7     incomplete or that they do not reflect the Prosecution case on a certain

 8     issue?

 9        A.   No, there were not such comments.  There were some comments

10     regarding the grammar and spelling and these kind of issues, and also

11     there were discussion regarding the issue how to present the DNA

12     connection part in writing.  Such discussions were going on, but there

13     were no other instructions.

14        Q.   So in terms of accuracy and precision and the position of the OTP

15     regarding your work, there were no changes, no objections from the

16     persons from the OTP you have just named?

17        A.   No, because initially before I started preparing the report,

18     there were discussions what areas my report should cover.  That was all.

19     And then I've prepared the report, and then just these final comments

20     which I have just mentioned.  That was all.

21        Q.   So you had received from the OTP instructions as to the -- what

22     your report should contain, if I understood you correctly; is that right?

23        A.   It's more precisely to say, you know, which areas should cover.

24     The main issue was to present the updated numbers regarding the new

25     exhumations, new identifications, and surface remain sections, and also

Page 33630

 1     there were discussions regarding these DNA connections, yes.

 2        Q.   So you received instructions in that sense by telling you, Mr.

 3     Janc, keep to what we want you to represent in your report.  Is that how

 4     it was?

 5             Seems that there are already some mistakes in the transcript, so

 6     I'll repeat my question.

 7             You had received as an instruction to stick to what the topic of

 8     your report was going to be.  You were told, in other words, that this is

 9     going to be the topics of your work and that you should abide by that.

10        A.   Yes, we can say something like that, yes.

11        Q.   After submitting your basic summary on the 13th of March, 2009,

12     on the 9th of April you submitted a corrigendum to this same summary, and

13     we had an opportunity to see this document, which is number 5492, and it

14     was shown to you by Ms. Soljan.  I just wanted to specify the time-line

15     and the dates of the -- my apologies, it's document P4492.  In any case,

16     this corrigendum was submitted on the 9th of April of this year; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   Can you tell me, did you draft this corrigendum on your own after

20     you had reviewed again your basic summary, or was it someone from the OTP

21     who asked you to do it?

22        A.   Actually, both.  I was already aware of this mistake, and I have

23     plans to prepare corrigendum.  There were also discussions later on with

24     these same individuals from the OTP that this should be done.

25        Q.   So it means that knowing the content of your corrigendum, and we

Page 33631

 1     are going to discuss it later on, you yourself had noticed that some of

 2     your statements in the basic summary practically did not reflect the

 3     state of facts or the position of the OTP vis-a-vis certain issues.

 4        A.   Yes, indeed.  When I was reading your motion, and you pointed

 5     that out, I did remember this thing, although I was aware of that before,

 6     but I did mistake.

 7        Q.   At any rate, tell me -- well, it means that you established this

 8     yourself, and after that Ms. Soljan and Mr. Vanderpuye practically gave

 9     you identical instructions in terms that these sections need to be

10     corrected; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.  Actually, they have asked me what is my opinion and what do

12     I think about this particular issue, and I explained what is my position,

13     and I also explained that I would prepare a corrigendum.

14        Q.   Did they tell you specifically in what way should this

15     corrigendum be drafted?

16        A.   No, they did not tell me because I think I did understand the

17     point.

18        Q.   When you spoke to Ms. Soljan and Mr. Vanderpuye and when you

19     discussed the corrigendum, were you told that Mr. Borovcanin's Defence

20     was going to refute your conclusions contained on page 60 in B/C/S and 41

21     in e-court?  Were you also told that the Borovcanin Defence already had

22     drawn the OTP's attention to that?

23        A.   Yes, they have told me that, yes, also, but they did not show me

24     the actual correspondence between yourself.

25        Q.   Was that also the reason for you to decide to change the

Page 33632

 1     corrigendum in light of the statement of the Defence to the effect that

 2     they were going to change certain -- or challenge certain statements in

 3     your summary?

 4             I'm sorry, another correction.  I already misspoke when I said

 5     change the corrigendum.  I meant for to you change your basic summary.

 6        A.   No, I don't think so.  I would prepare the corrigendum also

 7     without these facts.

 8             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we please now look at

 9     document P4424.  That's the map that we had already saw.  I'm sorry, the

10     number is P4524.

11        Q.   This is -- or actually, these are the maps with the markings that

12     you personally put on them.

13             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]  And if we can just look at the

14     bottom part of this map.  Can we please look at the bottom part of the

15     map showing Kravica, Glogova, Ravnice, and Zeleni Jadar.

16        Q.   Mr. Janc, bearing in mind your corrigendum, and you know what it

17     contains, is there an arrow missing on this map connecting Bratunac and

18     Glogova, since in the corrigendum you said that the bodies from the

19     school in Bratunac were also buried in Glogova.

20        A.   Yes, perhaps it should be there also.  I agree with you, but

21     no -- yeah, perhaps it should be there also.

22        Q.   Very well.  And, of course, also based on your corrigendum there

23     should be an arrow linking Konjevic Polje and Glogova as well; isn't that

24     right?

25        A.   Yes, the same.  You're right.

Page 33633

 1        Q.   And, of course, the same applies to an arrow that should connect

 2     Potocari and Glogova, and the Bratunac-Konjevic-Polje road and Glogova.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Therefore, we can agree that this map is incomplete in terms that

 5     it does not fully reflect what is contained in the corrigendum to your

 6     summary, and that it should be -- should have also be corrected at the

 7     time when you were correcting your summary.

 8        A.   Yes, you are right.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Janc, during your testimony on Friday,

10     30th of April, 2009 [as interpreted], and for my learned colleagues,

11     that's on page 33520 and 521, in response to Ms. Soljan's question, you

12     said that you were aware of the fact that three exhumations had been

13     planned by the BH authorities in the near future.  Do you remember saying

14     that?

15        A.   Yes, I do remember.

16        Q.   How do you know that three exhumations are planned to be

17     conducted in the near future?

18        A.   During our -- my conversation with the members of the BiH

19     institute on missing persons.

20        Q.   So your source are actually individuals from the Institute For

21     Missing Persons of BiH who conveyed this directly to you; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.  Usually I call them, and then I ask them what is going on

23     regarding the exhumations.

24        Q.   Can you tell me specifically about these three planned

25     exhumations mentioned on Friday.  When did you have this conversation

Page 33634

 1     about the forthcoming exhumations?

 2        A.   I would say just recently, in last two or three weeks.  I have

 3     called them twice, I guess.  Yeah, twice.  I was in contact with them

 4     twice, so ...  perhaps three times, not more.

 5        Q.   Would you agree with me if I say that for your work as an OTP

 6     investigator linked directly with this indictment, it is important for

 7     you to be familiar about the activities relating to the graves that are

 8     the subject of this indictment?

 9        A.   Yes, of course, as much as I can.

10        Q.   From your experience so far, and I think you said that you have

11     been an OTP investigator since June 2006, were the Bosnia and Herzegovina

12     authorities cooperative with the OTP concerning exhumations and other

13     related activities?

14        A.   Yes, I can say they were cooperative, but very often very slow.

15        Q.   Is it true that the OTP of the ICTY had learned about the

16     exhumations Hodzici Road 2 and Snagovo 3 conducted in September 2006

17     learned more than a year after the exhumation actually took place?

18        A.   Yes, that's true, yes.

19        Q.   Can you then explain to me how do you know today about the

20     planned exhumations when we see that the OTP was unaware of these

21     above-mentioned exhumations for more than a year?

22        A.   No, it's a different story, because I have started close

23     cooperation with this institute after my site visit in October 2007 when

24     I learned about this Hodzici Road 2 exhumation, and I've seen at that

25     time that we need regular contacts with them so in order to gain this

Page 33635

 1     information from them, so that's why this has changed after that.

 2        Q.   So if I understood you correctly, although you started working in

 3     June 2006, this effort that you are currently making did not exist

 4     actually until 2007; i.e., there were no attempts to obtain information

 5     from the BH authorities concerning the planned or ongoing exhumations.

 6     Does that mean that before you started doing that, nobody did that?

 7        A.   No, no.  There were attempts to do that, but probably there were

 8     not -- the methodology was different.  I know that Dean Manning before

 9     was mainly dealing with these exhumations, and he was also in contacts

10     with the BiH authorities regarding these exhumations, so and then he

11     left, and in between this time -- in between, yeah, when he left and when

12     I took over the position, there were probably -- there was probably lack

13     of communication between us and BiH site regarding the exhumations.

14        Q.   Very well.  Let us now move to the next topic.  In your

15     corrigendum dated the 9th of April, 2009, you say the following, that

16     individual bodies from other locations apart from Kravica warehouse were

17     also buried in the mass graves in Glogova.  These other sites including

18     following:  The area in and around the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac,

19     and in parenthesis, you said up to 80 bodies, according to W161, PW170,

20     Desimir Dukanovic; the bases in Potocari according to PW170 --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't get the number of the

22     bodies.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I am going to

24     continue where obviously we had a problem with the transcript.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes.  The interpreter didn't get the number of the

Page 33636

 1     bodies.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So:  "The area in and around Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, (up

 4     to 80 bodies according to PW161, PW170, and Desimir Dukanovic), the base

 5     in Potocari (6 to 7 bodies according to PW170), Konjevic Polje (10 to 15

 6     bodies according to PW161), as well as the area along the

 7     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road (1 truck-load of bodies collected according

 8     to PW161)."

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Soljan.

10             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, just one small detail for clarity of

11     the record.  It does not say base in Potocari but simply Potocari in the

12     text.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you for that.  We may proceed.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]  Very well, I accept this

15     correction provided by my learned friend Ms. Soljan.  This is really not

16     what is written in the corrigendum.

17        Q.   Mr. Janc, in order to avoid any further misunderstanding, I would

18     like to say outright to you that Mr. Borovcanin's Defence does not refute

19     at all the fact that the bodies of the people who died in the incident in

20     Kravica were indeed buried in the graves in Glogova.  I would like just

21     to discuss these bodies with you from other locations mentioned in your

22     corrigendum, and I'm talking about the graves in Glogova.

23             My first question is, according to what you know, what you

24     included in your corrigendum, can we say that all the sites with the

25     exception of the Kravica warehouse from where bodies were collected, were

Page 33637

 1     they buried in the graves in Glogova?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   We are now talking specifically about the Vuk Karadzic school,

 4     and it's mentioned in your corrigendum that there were 80 bodies.  Among

 5     other things, you named Desimir Dukanovic as one of the sources.  Since

 6     this Trial Chamber did not have an opportunity to hear Dukanovic's

 7     testimony, can you tell me more about this person, and why is he

 8     important for establishing this fact concerning the number of bodies?

 9     Why did you choose him particularly to include him in your corrigendum?

10        A.   Yes.  He was interviewed by the BiH authorities, and also, I

11     think he testified at the BiH state court, so he was personally involved

12     in collecting the bodies from the Vuk Karadzic school and around the Vuk

13     Karadzic school and transporting them to Glogova.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, would it be convenient to take a

15     break now?  I know we have five more minutes, but it's going to be a long

16     quotation, and --

17             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, definitely by all means.  Let's have a

18     25-minute break.  Thank you.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

21             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

22             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Janc, the last subject we discussed before

24     the break was you giving us some details about Desimir Dukanovic and why

25     he was significant enough for you to take his statement into account

Page 33638

 1     while making your corrigendum.

 2             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we now look up in e-court

 3     4D753.  It is a record of witness interview for Desimir Dukanovic dated

 4     20th March, 2007.

 5        Q.   And you said something about this witness interview during your

 6     testimony.  Can we move to page 4 in B/C/S, paragraph 5.  And since we

 7     have no translation for this document, I will read out the relevant

 8     passage before I put a question to you.  So for the transcript I'm

 9     reading from paragraph 5, the sentence beginning:

10             "First, we collected the bodies from the Vuk Karadzic primary

11     school, namely from the first room next to the entrance door on the

12     right-hand side, six bodies; and from the second room, that is, classroom

13     to the right from the entrance door, we picked up seven bodies.  Upstairs

14     in the school from the two classrooms located on the right-hand side

15     looking from the entrance to the school with windows facing

16     Vidovdanska Street, we picked up 10 to 15 bodies.  After that, we

17     collected more bodies from the lawn outside the school, which is located

18     to the right of the entrance to the school, namely two bodies from just

19     outside the entrance, two or three metres away.  And further on, on the

20     same green area facing the municipal building we picked up two more

21     bodies, and then another four lying near the right-hand corner of the

22     school facing the municipal building.

23             "In addition, we collected also bodies from the green area on the

24     right flank of the school looking from the entrance to the school, and

25     there were 15 to 20 bodies there.  From the left flank of the school next

Page 33639

 1     to the power transmission station we picked up six to seven bodies.

 2     After that we collected the bodies from the green area near the monument

 3     by the bazaar, and there were at least ten or so bodies there.

 4             "At the same time, I also saw a large number of bodies of Muslims

 5     killed on the playground, at least around 100.  Those bodies we did not

 6     collect.  I saw that those bodies on the playground were being collected

 7     by some people from Repovac, namely Mitar Kevic, who died after the war,

 8     and also brothers Sava and Ziko from Cerovac, who also died after the

 9     war.  They were putting those bodies on the truck."

10             I finished reading that passage from Mr. Dukanovic's statement

11     that we believe to be of interested in relation to your corrigendum, and

12     if I add it up correctly, all the bodies mentioned by Mr. Dukanovic in

13     his statement, bodies found in Bratunac on various locations and buried

14     in Glogova, it is at least 173 bodies.  Do you agree?

15        A.   Yes, it is correct if you count also the last hundred bodies

16     which are on the playground in Bratunac, although it is 73 of them.

17        Q.   Precisely.  That's what I suggested can be seen from this

18     statement.  However, in your corrigendum, you say up to 180 bodies, and

19     you invoke Desimir Dukanovic's statement as a source?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  80 bodies.

21             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation]

22        Q.   But now when we read this statement, the number seems to be more

23     than double the one quoted in your corrigendum?

24        A.   Yes, that's because of those 100 which I did not count because

25     from his statement it's not clear where those bodies were taken.  He is

Page 33640

 1     only talking about the bodies he picked it up, that they were taken to

 2     Glogova.  And for these 100 bodies we don't know, as you can see from the

 3     statement, the people who picked them up are already dead.  So but apart

 4     from that, I did not exclude the possibility that also those 100 bodies

 5     were taken to Glogova.

 6        Q.   That's precisely what I wanted to ask, but you anticipated my

 7     question.  It is a very real possibility, indeed, in view of the time

 8     when this was happening, that these bodies, too, are to be found in

 9     Glogova 1 and 2.

10        A.   Yes, the possibility is always there.

11        Q.   Of course, and it's indeed very probable that these bodies were

12     buried there, unless you have a different suggestion.

13        A.   I don't have different suggestion, so it can be the case, yes.

14     But we don't have a clear indication or a statement from -- any statement

15     showing that to be the fact.

16        Q.   [In English] All right.  [Interpretation] You go on to say in the

17     corrigendum that bodies from Potocari, Konjevic Polje, as well as a full

18     truck-load of corpses collected on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje Road were

19     also buried there, and you refer to the testimony of PW161 in the

20     corrigendum.  I conclude, then, that you had occasion to read the

21     testimony of PW161, didn't you?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   And then you know the fact that this witness said that in the

24     graves in Glogova a certain number of bodies found in forests in the area

25     of Ravni Buljim, Kamenica, and Pobudje were also buried.  Are you aware

Page 33641

 1     of the fact that a testimony of the witness before this Tribunal includes

 2     that as well?

 3        A.   Yes, I know he was testifying about the dead, but the conclusion

 4     can't be like you put it to me because I think later on like it was

 5     clarified with this same witness and he denied that would be the case in

 6     some way.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry.  Let's clear up this dilemma first.  I will quote to

 8     you exactly from the transcript; for my colleagues, it's on pages 9538

 9     and 9538 [as interpreted] of the 27th March, 2007.  I'll just make a

10     short break for the interpreters to switch to English.

11             [In English] "Q.  And in these graves in Glogova, all the bodies

12     that were found in Konjevic Polje were buried there too; isn't that

13     correct?

14             "A.  Yes.

15             "Q.  But bodies found when searching the territory and the area

16     of Ravni Buljim, Kamenica, Pobudje, these bodies were also buried there?

17             "A.  All those who were killed up there, and even the five or six

18     bodies that I saw by the Vuk Karadzic school, the driver later informed

19     me that there had been more of them.  All of them have been taken and

20     that" -- "to those graves and buried in those graves in Glogova.

21             "Q.  Glogova, or those graves in Glogova, where places where all

22     these bodies were buried, this is at the location on the left" -- sorry.

23             "A.  This is a location on the left and the right to the road to

24     Kravica, and what Momir said about the area in the direction of

25     Halilovici, we weren't involved in that.  I don't know who was."

Page 33642

 1             [Interpretation] Now, I finished quoting this first part of the

 2     testimony of PW161, and I'd like you to have a complete picture of what

 3     he said before I put my question.  We are talking now about 9555, page

 4     9555, the transcript of 27 March 2007, and page 9556.  We start:

 5             [In English] "Q.  Witness, are you aware of the area mentioned by

 6     Mr. Stojanovic called Ravni Buljim?

 7             "A.  Ravni Buljim, I know where it is.

 8             "Q.  Is that out in the woods beyond Jaglici in a rather remote

 9     area?

10             "A.  It's somewhere in the woods, and there are houses up there

11     too.  Ravni Buljim is a very wide area.

12             "Q.  During the days that we are talking about around the Kravica

13     murder and afterward, did you, or anyone else you know, go back into

14     those woods to retrieve Muslim bodies out of those woods?

15             "A.  Well, the employees of the public utilities company and the

16     civilian protection gathered bodies.  There were even lorries that

17     couldn't access certain areas, but as to whether they were in

18     Ravni Buljim, I don't know, but they did bring them in from the woods.

19             "Q.  Your people actually went into those woods at that

20     time-frame with Muslim soldiers running around in those woods to pick up

21     bodies.

22             "A.  No.  That's not how it was done in the woods.  It was up to

23     the road, as far as the road, as far as the river, but as to the woods,

24     as far as I know, given what I was told, on that day there were no

25     soldiers, no Muslim soldiers."

Page 33643

 1             [Interpretation] So we've now familiarised ourselves with the

 2     entirety of what the witness had to say on this subject.  I tried when

 3     quoting the transcript to present to you everything that this witness

 4     said on the subject, both in direct examination and in cross.  At no

 5     point did the witness deny that the bodies from the woods were collected.

 6        A.   When I was reading his testimony, I did understand a little bit

 7     different.  And I don't see here, for example, when you are talking about

 8     Ravni Buljim that he is talking that these bodies are taken to Glogova.

 9     And I think when I was reviewing his testimony, that I did have different

10     impression regarding these events.  That's why I did not include them.

11             I think you have to, you know, review his testimony again in its

12     entirety.  It's better than just going piece by piece.

13        Q.   Certainly, but you know his testimony was very long.  There are

14     hundreds of pages of transcript.  These are the only references to the

15     incident that I found.  He is talking not only about Ravni Buljim, but

16     also about Kamenica and Pobudje.  That is a wider area.

17             But let me ask you, do you deny that the bodies -- I'm not saying

18     all bodies, and I cannot suggest that it's all bodies because there are

19     surface remains, but can you exclude the possibility that part of the

20     bodies that were closer and more accessible in the woods were in fact

21     collected and buried?

22        A.   No, I do not exclude this possibility.  It's impossible to

23     exclude these kind of possibilities.

24        Q.   And, of course, the same applies to Budak and Bljeceva that are

25     relatively linked to this whole area.

Page 33644

 1        A.   I don't understand because Budak and Bljeceva are secondary

 2     graves.  What is your exact question regarding this, that these bodies

 3     were taken directly to these graves?  Is that your proposition?

 4        Q.   No, no, no.  I'm not suggesting that.  But you know yourself that

 5     the Budak grave is in a location where there had been burials even before

 6     the Kravica incident.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So Budak is partially a primary grave, not in relation to this,

 9     but Budak is a primary grave.

10        A.   Actually, where secondary grave Budak one is located, there is a

11     Muslim grave, yes, next to it.

12        Q.   Just one more question about this proposition that I made.  It's

13     a very reasonable possibility that those bodies were buried there, isn't

14     it?

15        A.   Which bodies you mean?

16        Q.   I'm talking about the bodies collected in the woods, in the area

17     we've just discussed, Buljim, Kamenica, Pobudje, and so on.

18        A.   Yes.  If they were collected, those were buried somewhere for

19     sure.

20        Q.   And the place which was the main site where all the bodies were

21     buried is Glogova 1 and 2, in that area; right?

22        A.   Yes, you are right.  And the most of the work have been done by

23     17 according to aerial images of July, so in four days.

24        Q.   All right.  I promise to come back to this later on.

25             We are still on the subject of PW161.  Let me read to you another

Page 33645

 1     passage from his transcript.  It's page 9392, lines 5 through 14,

 2     examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 3             [In English] "Q.  Okay.  Can you give us a rough estimate, if you

 4     can, of how many bodies were buried in that grave?"

 5             [Interpretation] We are talking about Glogova of course.

 6             [In English] "A.  The three days while I was down there and while

 7     people from the utilities company and the civilian protection were there,

 8     I think that between 4 and 500 bodies were buried.  Also, I believe that

 9     other bodies were buried subsequently when I was no longer in the area.

10             "Q.  Okay.  And do you have any idea about those?  Did you get

11     any reports of how many other bodies were buried at Glogova when you

12     weren't there?

13             "A.  I don't know exactly."

14             [Interpretation] So I've put to you another --

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  Yes, Ms. Soljan?

16             MS. SOLJAN:  Your Honours, I'd ask that Mr. Lazarevic also reads

17     to the witness the following two question-and-answers that follow that

18     interchange, if possible.

19             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No problem, but my colleague will have to wait

20     for a moment because I have it not in front of me, and I will do it in a

21     moment.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC:  No problem, I will quote.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Next question is:

25             [In English] "Q.  You testified on Friday that you assumed some

Page 33646

 1     of those bodies were from Kravica.  Can you tell us more definitively

 2     what kind of knowledge, if any, you had about bodies from Kravica being

 3     buried in Glogova?

 4             "A.  Well, most of the bodies buried in Glogova I believe were

 5     from Kravica because vehicles came from the direction of Kravica, and I

 6     know that people had been killed around the Zadruga Kravica, and those

 7     bodies were transported to Glogova.  A FAP 13 lorry that was owned by the

 8     utilities company was involved in those activities."

 9             Do I need to go further?

10             MS. SOLJAN:  Yes, please, one more question and answer.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  All right.

12             "Q.  It sounds like you've used the word that I haven't heard

13     before.  It may be a translation issue, but you said that the people had

14     been killed around the something in Kravica.  Can you tell us what you --

15     what you said?

16             "A.  I said that I believe that most of the people in -- who were

17     buried in Glogova had been killed in Kravica because the lorries, one of

18     which was FAP 13 lorry and was owned by the Rad utilities company in

19     Bratunac, transported these bodies to the site in Glogova."

20             [Interpretation] I hope -- [In English] [Previous translation

21     continues]... I have no problem --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  She had said the next two questions and answers.

23     You've read them out.  So unless I hear any further, let's proceed then.

24             MS. SOLJAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Yes.

25             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.

Page 33647

 1             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I think we've covered it all now and quoted the passages that are

 3     relevant.  But based on what I've just read, we see that in the first

 4     three days - if we know that the incident in Kravica happened on the

 5     13th, then we are talking about the 14th, 15th and 16th - after that

 6     incident between 400 and 500 bodies were buried in the grave in Glogova,

 7     including the bodies from the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac and from

 8     the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje as well as bodies from Potocari.  And

 9     after that, there were more burials in the Glogova grave, but

10     Witness PW161 could not determine exactly on how many occasions bodies

11     were buried or the exact number of bodies buried later.  Can we agree

12     that this is clear from the passage of the transcript that I quoted?

13        A.   Yes, that's what it says there.  Yes.

14        Q.   And bearing in mind that in your corrigendum you referred to the

15     testimony of PW161, I believe that the information and testimony he

16     provided here have certain weight in relation to the Prosecution case;

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes, correct.

19        Q.   Also on the subject, did you have occasion to review the report

20     about exhumations in Glogova 2 site prepared by Mr. Jose-Pablo Baraybar.

21     You had occasion to read this report?

22        A.   Yes, I did.  I did review this report.

23             MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look up in e-court

24     P2475.  That's the report by Mr. Baraybar, and we need page 14 in B/C/S,

25     which is page 19 in English.  And while we are waiting for that page to

Page 33648

 1     be displayed in e-court, I'd like to look at the paragraph that starts

 2     with the words "another interesting point ..."

 3             So can you see this lower part which begins with "another

 4     interesting point ..."?  We can see it in English, as well, and it reads

 5     as follows:

 6             "Another interesting point to discuss is the fact that the grave

 7     GL02-09 consists of a string of graves of various dimensions.  This

 8     implies that graves of different sizes were being excavated according to

 9     the needs to dispose bodies therein and that there may have been a

10     relative time difference between the excavation of each of the graves.

11     At this point, it is not possible to precise what was the absolute 'time'

12     difference between each of the burial episodes."

13             Can you see that in front of you?  And do you agree that this is

14     what Mr. Baraybar's report reads?

15        A.   Yes, I see and I can agree.

16        Q.   Now that we have read this passage, is it consistent with what

17     Witness PW161 said and that we read a minute ago, that is to say that

18     there were several burials at different times, which is also clear from

19     the forensic evidence?

20        A.   Yes, we can say something like that, yes.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  The next thing that I would like to ask you

22     about is during your work for the ICTY OTP, did you have an opportunity

23     to familiarise yourself with the fact that in the very town of Srebrenica

24     there were a number of people who were killed and that the bodies were in

25     the town of Srebrenica itself?  Did you know about that?

Page 33649

 1        A.   Yes, I do remember these bodies.  They are also on footages, I

 2     think, on videos.  You can see them, some of them, so I'm aware of this

 3     fact.

 4        Q.   Yes, you are absolutely right, and that can be seen.

 5             I would like to ask you whether you know where these bodies from

 6     the town of Srebrenica were buried.  Did you ever come across such piece

 7     of information?  Where is their burial site?

 8        A.   No, I don't have any information on these bodies so far.

 9        Q.   And, of course, you cannot rule out the possibility that given

10     where they were found, probably ended up in Glogova 1 or 2 being the

11     closest ones where the bodies were buried immediately after the fall of

12     Srebrenica, at least the majority of the bodies?

13        A.   Yes, it's possible, you know, but that would be speculation

14     because I haven't seen any evidence regarding these particular bodies so

15     far, where they ended up.

16        Q.   Of course I agree, and if it were possible, I would gladly show

17     you the evidence about where these bodies ended, but we cannot reasonably

18     rule out the possibility that they were buried in Glogova; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   In your corrigendum, you say that of the total number of bodies

21     found in Glogova, 12 bodies need to be excluded that had been found in a

22     Glogova L grave.  There is evidence for ten victims that they had been

23     brought from Serbia on the 20th, the 24th, and 26th of July, 1995.  Do

24     you remember that portion of your corrigendum?

25        A.   Yes, I do remember.

Page 33650

 1        Q.   The next question is, are you aware of the fact that in his

 2     report, Professor Richard Wright stated that the grave Glogova L was

 3     excavated in the period between 17th and 27th July, 1995?  I assume that

 4     together with the documents that you cited in the corrigendum was the

 5     reason for you to remove these bodies from the possible number of victims

 6     in Kravica.  Did you take into account the findings of Professor Richard

 7     Wright?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] Now, can we please look at P674,

10     page 20 in B/C/S and page 22 in the English version.  That's the report

11     of Professor Richard Wright of 9 February 2001.

12        Q.   When we come to the relevant page, I would like you to focus on

13     item C somewhere in the middle of the page.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  [Interpretation] So we need pages 20 and 22 in

15     B/C/S and English respectively.  Can we scroll down the page in B/C/S so

16     that we can see item C.

17        Q.   It reads that by 27th of July, 1995, but in order for you to

18     understand the context, that means the period between the 17th and the

19     27th of July, 1995, graves E and L had been added to the bottom western

20     section of the suspect area.  Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes, I see that, and I'm very well aware of this fact.

22        Q.   So it is obvious from this that not only grave L mentioned by you

23     in the corrigendum but also grave E was excavated at a later date; is

24     that correct?  Actually, we have two subgraves within Glogova 1; right?

25        A.   Yes, you are right.  But for grave L, we know that who those

Page 33651

 1     individuals are and where they are coming from.  For grave E, we don't

 2     have such example.

 3        Q.   Let us summarise what you have said.  In your corrigendum, you

 4     exclude grave L for three reasons.  The first reason was that there were

 5     no documents supporting that the people found there had been alive on the

 6     16th, 20th, and 26th of July; secondly, because there are some specific

 7     features such as ligatures that were not characteristic of other graves

 8     in Glogova; and thirdly, because you relied on Mr. Richard Wright's

 9     report which says that they were excavated at a later date.  Did I cite

10     all the reasons?

11        A.   Yes, that was the case.  Yes.

12        Q.   So in order for you to see grave L, let's move to page 15 in

13     B/C/S and page 16 in English.  However, what is common for both graves E

14     and L is that they were excavated in the same period, i.e., after the

15     main burial testified to by Witness PW161.

16             I'm sorry.  For transcript I have to make a correction.  I'm

17     talking about grave E now, and we can see that it talks about six bodies;

18     right?

19        A.   Yes, right.  And this is I think the only similarity you have

20     between those two graves.  All the rest is different.

21        Q.   Yes.  But regardless of that, there is something that links these

22     two graves, and that is that they were excavated after the main burial

23     took place testified about by Witness PW161 when the bodies from Kravica

24     had already been buried.

25        A.   Yes, I agree with you.  But for grave E, the importance of this

Page 33652

 1     grave is that inside this grave you have the artifacts from Kravica

 2     warehouse, so this is coming out of Michael Hedley's report, and you will

 3     see that you have artifacts from Kravica warehouse.  So inside this grave

 4     are the bodies which were most probably buried or taken from Kravica.

 5     That's the difference.  But in grave L, you don't have any of such

 6     artifacts.

 7        Q.   Yes, yes, but of course you cannot rule out the possibility of

 8     the contamination of the grave, that is to say that the same machines

 9     used -- were used and they could have contaminated the graves E as well.

10        A.   It's possible.

11             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Your Honours, if we can take a break now, I'm

12     about to move to another topic.  This is a very long one.

13             JUDGE AGIUS:  How long?  How much more do you reckon you need.

14             MR. LAZAREVIC:  Honestly speaking, I believe one hour.

15             JUDGE AGIUS:  All right.

16             Mr. Janc, we are going to stop here today.  We will continue

17     tomorrow morning, thank you, at 9.00.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of May,

20                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.