1 Tuesday, 30 June 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody. Good morning to you,
6 Mr. Registrar. Could you kindly call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning,
8 Your Honours. Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Vujadin Popovic et al. Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, for the record all the accused are here.
12 Prosecution it's Mr. McCloskey; Defence teams, I notice the absence of
13 Ms. Tapuskovic, Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Bourgon, and Mr. -- no, Mr. Davis
14 here, my apologies to you, but with the columns in the way, sometimes
15 it's difficult to see who is here and who is not. Thank you.
16 I understand Mr. Zivanovic and Madam Fauveau would like to
17 address the Chamber, preliminary.
18 Yes, Ms. Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] In fact, I would like to say
20 exactly the same thing as my colleague, Zivanovic. Perhaps we should go
21 into private session. It has to do with the motion filed by the
22 Prosecution on Friday, confidential motion.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session for a
24 very short while. I don't know why we should be in private session and
25 why it was filed confidentiality, to be honest.
1 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would simply like
20 to inform this Trial Chamber that the Defence of Popovic, Beara, and
21 Miletic support the motion filed by the Prosecutor because we feel that
22 this would be beneficial for the accused as this is a very complex case.
23 And as far as the Defence is concerned, we received an important number
24 of documents disclosed to us by the Prosecutor; namely, regarding the
25 Main Staff. And, for some of us at least, we do have some commitments
1 right after the 20th of July, since at the outset, we had planned that
2 the date would be the 20th of July. So if something is postponed, it
3 should be after the legal holidays. Thank you.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
5 Mr. Josse.
6 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honours, on behalf of General Gvero, we
7 were not going to raise the issue today, but we would invite some
8 direction from the Trial Chamber as to which date we should respond. We
9 have some specific submissions in relation to this particular issue, and,
10 indeed, we will probably file a further motion in regard to matters
11 pertaining to scheduling. So I would simply ask to some direction as to
12 when that needs to be done by.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I don't really think it should be very
14 difficult for you to imagine or realise that it should be filed the
15 earliest possible.
16 MR. JOSSE: Well, I --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are a few days, basically, away from the
18 deadline that we had imposed earlier, and what Mr. Haynes wrote in his
19 reply yesterday as to the desirability of an earlier response from the
20 Trial Chamber is, of course, it makes a lot of sense. And we have the
21 intention of coming down with our decision or our response pretty soon.
22 So I will consult with my colleagues.
23 MR. JOSSE: Can I say we respectfully endorse what Mr. Haynes
24 said. We simply want to know. If it's going to be 24 hours, it will be
25 24 hours. Forty-eight will be our preference, but we'll do it in 24, if
1 need be.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. By tomorrow noon, noon time.
4 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, Mr. Haynes.
6 MR. HAYNES: Nothing, really, but would you lift the
7 confidentiality of my response, please.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
9 MR. HAYNES: I assumed it was because of footnote 2, but I see no
10 reason for the debate to be private rather than public.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. So we have lift the
12 confidentiality, of your response, too.
13 Borovcanin, I understand, have already replied but I haven't --
14 or not just me, because I asked my colleagues this morning. We haven't
15 seen it as yet, it hasn't arrived to us, so that covers all the teams,
16 no? One, two, three -- no, Nikolic.
17 Nikolic, do you wish to state your position regarding this
18 motion, Ms. Nikolic?
19 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
20 express the position of our team within the 24-hour limit, as we had
21 planned to work throughout the summer in accordance with the previous
22 instructions in view of the new disclosed material and also the witness
23 we are expecting to see.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
25 All right. So we'll try, assuming that you will respond by
1 tomorrow noon
2 possible afterwards. We have other decisions in the pipeline, we have to
3 look at them again. We'll deposit them in due course in the next couple
4 of days.
5 Other preliminaries? We hear none. Can we bring in Mr. Kosoric,
7 Mr. Zivanovic and Mr. McCloskey and others, for that matter, do
8 you think it's the case of giving him caution under Rule 90 or not?
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Kosoric.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm the Presiding Judge in this case. My name is
16 Agius, and together with my colleagues, Judge Kwon, Judge Prost, and
17 Judge Stole, we welcome you to this Tribunal. You're about to start
18 giving evidence soon.
19 Before you do so, our rules require that you make a solemn
20 declaration tantamount to an undertaking to speak the truth during your
21 testimony. The Usher next to you will hand to you now the text of the
22 solemn declaration. Please read it out aloud and that will be your
23 solemn undertaking with us.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: SVETOZAR KOSORIC
2 [Witness answered though interpreter]
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
4 You're going to be asked a series of questions by Mr. Zivanovic,
5 who is appearing for accused Popovic here. He will then be followed,
6 presumably, by the Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey, and maybe others.
7 Before you start giving evidence, it is my duty to draw your
8 attention to a special provision that we have in our rules of evidence
9 and procedure by virtue of which you are entitled to object answering any
10 question which, in your mind, could incriminate you. This, however, is
11 not an absolute right. You can indicate your objection to the
12 Trial Chamber, and then it's up to us to decide whether to accept your
13 objection and exempt you from answering such questions or whether to
14 compel you to answer the question not withstanding your objection.
15 You have a further right, however, should we compel you to answer
16 such incriminatory questions. Our rule, Rule 90(e) provides,
17 specifically, that should this be the case, testimony compelled in this
18 way by the Trial Chamber shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent
19 Prosecution against you for any offence except if that offence is a false
20 testimony, perjury.
21 Have you understood my explanation to you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And you do understand that coming here to answer
24 questions from Mr. Zivanovic means also that you will need to answer
25 questions from everybody else, including the Prosecution? You are aware
1 of that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So having said that, we can
5 Mr. Zivanovic, how long do you expect your examination-in-chief
6 to last.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe that half an hour will be enough.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go, then.
11 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kosoric. My name is a
13 Zoran Zivanovic. I represent Vujadin Popovic in this case. I would like
14 to ask you for the record to tell us your full name, first and last?
15 A. Svetozar Kosoric.
16 Q. Could you please also tell us how old you are and where you
17 were born?
18 A. I was born on the 22nd of May, 1953, in the village of Kosece
19 [phoen], municipality of Han Pijesak, in Bosnia and Herzegovina
20 Q. Which schools have you attended and completed? Could you tell us
21 that too?
22 A. As far as military schools are concerned, I completed secondary
23 military school for armoured vehicles, and also the military academy,
24 also the department for armoured units.
25 Q. Could you briefly --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know about the interpreters, but you're
3 speaking too far from the microphone, and I try to follow you in your own
4 language as well, but I can barely hear your voice.
5 Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Kosoric, could you briefly tell us, please, what your career
8 has been since you completed military academy, where you served?
9 A. Let me try and remember. After completion of secondary military
10 school, I was working in Banja Luka in the educational centre for the
11 training of units for about a year. After that, I completed the military
12 academy and I then went to serve in Belgrade; more specifically, the
13 Guards Brigade in Belgrade
14 I worked in the armoured regiment also in Belgrade, and I stayed in
16 about one year there, a year and a half, then I returned to Belgrade
17 again to the same unit, that is, the Guards Brigade.
18 In 1995, in mid-June, I was deployed to the Drina Corps in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is where I remained until -- I can't remember
20 exactly, but I think the beginning of 1997. Then I returned to Belgrade
21 again, and that is where my service ended.
22 Q. Where you pensioned off?
23 A. Yes, I retired.
24 Q. Was a sickness the reason for your retirement?
25 A. Yes. In 1998, I retired and my illness was re-examined, and then
1 I was re-employed in 1999. And in the year 2000, I was pensioned again.
2 Q. Thank you. You told us that in 1995, in mid-June, you were
3 assigned to the Drina Corps. Could you tell us what position you held in
4 the Drina
5 A. In the Drina Corps, I was assigned to the position of assistant
6 Chief of Staff for intelligence.
7 Q. Could you tell us, while you were performing those duties who was
8 your immediate superior?
9 A. As I was assistant Chief of Staff for intelligence, my superior
10 was the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps.
11 Q. We are aware of the fact that at the time of your arrival that
12 position was held by General Krstic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We also know that there is the term of management in the
15 professional sense, could you tell us in that chain of command who were
16 you subordinate to?
17 A. Along that professional line, I was subordinated to the chief of
18 intelligence in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 Q. And according to that professional chain of command, were you
20 superior to the intelligence organs in the brigades?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. Do you remember who was the intelligence officer in the
23 Bratunac Brigade?
24 A. Yes, I do remember. It was Nikolic, I just can't remember his
25 first name. Nikolic, Momir, something like that.
1 Q. We know that shortly after your arrival an operation took place
2 known as Krivaja 95, and in that operation the Army of Republika Srpska
3 entered Srebrenica; do you remember that?
4 A. Yes, do I.
5 Q. I won't go into the details of that operation itself, but I am
6 interested in learning whether you remember that immediately after the
7 Army of Republika Srpska entered Srebrenica, there were meetings between
8 representatives of the Army of Republika Srpska on the one hand and
9 representatives of the Dutch battalion that was stationed in Srebrenica,
10 on the other, and that certain Muslim refugees attended those meetings?
11 A. Yes, I do remember. At the time, I was a liaison officer between
12 General Mladic and the Dutch battalion.
13 Q. Do you remember how many such meetings were held, if you can
15 A. Two or three.
16 Q. What about the last meeting, regardless of the fact whether there
17 were, in fact, two or three meetings? When was the last meeting held?
18 Do you remember the time of day, for example, when the last meeting was
20 A. As far as I remember, it was held some time in the morning hours.
21 Q. I will not be asking you anything in relation to that meeting
22 specifically; in other words, anything about what about exactly went on
23 during that meeting. I do want to know, however, whether prior to that
24 meeting -- and we know where the meeting was held. Our information
25 indicates that it was at the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac. Prior to that
1 meeting, did you see Momir Nikolic and did you speak to him?
2 A. Each time there was a meeting, I would see Momir Nikolic about
3 it, since he was providing the means for me to get to the DutchBat
4 headquarters, and he would also provide an interpreter. I would then
5 meet people from DutchBat and representatives from the Muslim
6 authorities, whom I would then, in turn, take back to the hotel to speak
7 to General Mladic there.
8 Q. I will now be quoting from a statement provided by Momir Nikolic,
9 this is C1. It has been exhibited as C1. The relevant quote is in
10 paragraph 4, as far as I remember.
11 Shortly, you will be seeing the document on the screen in front
12 of you; nevertheless, I will read it out loud for the benefit of the
13 transcript. Do you see the text in front of you, sir? If that makes it
14 any easier for you I can read it back to you.
15 A. That will be fine, thank you.
16 Q. It reads:
17 "On the morning of the 12th of July, 1995, the forces of the
18 Army of Republika Srpska, including components of the Bratunac Brigade,
19 entered Potocari and took the town itself as well as the area surrounding
20 the UN DutchBat compound. A third meeting was scheduled at the
21 Fontana Hotel to be held at 10.00 with all the same participants.
22 "On the morning of the 12th of July, prior to the above-mentioned
23 meeting, outside the Fontana Hotel, I met" --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but on the monitor on
25 the screen, initially we got an indication that you were reading from
1 paragraph 2 --
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Paragraph 4, sorry.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, this is why I am raising this because what
4 the witness must have in front of him is paragraph 2 and not paragraph 4.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Maybe it is from my side interpretation or
6 something --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, I am not blaming. I'm just --
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I know, I know --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I am just pointing out that we have paragraph 2 and
10 not paragraph 4. And that's why I couldn't follow you, actually, I mean,
11 because I was reading paragraph 2, and I couldn't -- it didn't say what
12 you were saying, although in part it did. So let's get paragraph 4,
13 please, on the monitor.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I'll read again, the second paragraph:
16 "On the morning of the 12th of July, prior to the above-mentioned
17 meeting, outside the Fontana Hotel, I met Lieutenant-Colonel
18 Vujadin Popovic, chief of security of the Drina Corps and
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, chief of intelligence of the Drina Corps. On
20 that occasion, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic told me that all of the Muslim
21 women and children in Potocari would be taken away from Potocari towards
22 Muslim-held territory near Kladanj and that any men of military age among
23 the crowd of Muslim civilians would be separated, temporarily detained in
24 Bratunac, and killed shortly after that. I was told that it was my
25 assignment to help coordinate and organise this operation.
1 Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric repeated this information after which we
2 discussed appropriate locations for detaining and executing the Muslim
3 men. I identified several specific locations: The old elementary school
4 building, the Vuk Karadzic school (including its gym), the old building
5 of the 'Djuro Pucar Stari' secondary school, as well as the hangar (which
6 is 50 metres away from the old secondary school building).
7 Lieutenant-Colonels Kosoric and Popovic spoke to me about the execution
8 sites that would be used for the execution of these temporarily-detained
9 Muslim men in Bratunac. We then specifically discussed two locations
10 outside the town of Bratunac
11 and the Sase mine in Sase town."
12 Now, I would like to ask you a question about this quotation.
13 Did you ever talk about anything like this to Momir Nikolic or did you
14 tell him any of the things that I now read back to you?
15 A. I've been listening carefully, this sort of thing is never dealt
16 with in this way. No conversation could have occurred outside the hotel,
17 that would have been impossible. All I know is I was ordered something
18 to the effect that we had nothing to do with the Muslim people, the
19 captured soldiers. Rather, I was told that the civilian authorities and
20 the Main Staff would be taking charge. I was also told that the units
21 involved in Srebrenica, on that day or the following day, would be off to
22 the Zepa enclave. What this document says is inaccurate. A decision
23 must be taken at a higher level, at a meeting, this is not the sort of
24 decision that is taken outside some hotel. This is hearsay, this is
25 gossip, no more than that. This is no way for a military to go about
1 resolving situations such as these.
2 Q. I understand your answer. I would like you to be as specific as
3 you possibly can in this regard. If need be, I will repeat this for your
4 benefit. Did you ever tell him anything like this, under any conditions
5 whatsoever? The document doesn't say that you ordered this. It simply
6 reads that he was told. Did you tell him something to this
8 A. No, I never did. No conversation like this took place at all,
9 not ever.
10 Q. Another thing, in your presentation did
11 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic perhaps say anything like that, the same thing
12 that I have just read back to you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kosoric. I have no further questions
15 for you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. Mr. Ostojic?
17 MR. OSTOJIC: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. No
18 questions at this time.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I put, at this time --
20 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- in bold inverted commas, Mr. Ostojic.
22 Thank you, Ms. Nikolic.
23 Mr. Lazarevic.
24 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Lazarevic.
1 Thank you.
2 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honours, we have no questions at this
3 time for this witness.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] We have no questions either,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Josse.
8 MR. JOSSE: No questions.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
10 Mr. Haynes.
11 MR. HAYNES: No, thank you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All yours, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you expect your cross-examination to
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Several hours.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, go ahead.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Hopefully shorter, but this has opened up quite
19 an area, as I'm sure everyone understands.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
21 Q. Good morning. Are you -- what's your current rank, sir?
22 A. Lieutenant-colonel, retired.
23 Q. All right. Lieutenant-colonel, my name is Peter McCloskey. I
24 represent the Prosecution. I will be asking you some questions on this.
25 First of all, I'll quote you back, "This sort of thing is never
1 dealt with this way."
2 Sir, those words, let me ask you: Would this sort of thing be
3 dealt with by General Mladic in the confines of a meeting room with his
4 most senior staff before a decision, such as we've talked about here, was
6 A. As far as I understand what you are saying, you misunderstood
7 what I said. In order for any decision to be taken, there must be a
8 meeting. Neither me nor Mr. Popovic nor, for that matter, Mr. Nikolic,
9 were the persons who had the power to issue any orders or take decisions,
10 even less out in the street outside our hotel. I fail to understand
11 that. A decision had to be taken elsewhere and then conveyed to the
12 commanders and not to us, the technical bodies that were there.
13 Q. Sir, listen to my question: Would such a decision, a serious
14 decision like this, be made by General Mladic with his most senior staff
15 inside a meeting room? Is that how such a decision would be made?
16 A. I don't know who took this decision.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, one moment. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It calls for speculation.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: No way, no way. Please answer the question.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I please have the question
21 repeated? Thank you.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please, unless you wish us to
23 read the question again.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can do it.
25 Q. Would such a decision, a serious decision like this, be made by
1 General Mladic with his most senior staff inside a meeting room? Is that
2 how such a decision would be made?
3 A. Certainly, that is how a decision would be made, behind closed
4 doors. Certainly not somewhere out in the open where people could then
5 talk about it. It was possible that such a decision was taken.
6 Q. Well, it's more than possible, isn't it, sir? You know what
7 happened to the roughly 500 to a thousand men separated outside Potocari
8 that day. They were all murdered, weren't this?
9 A. I don't know, I wasn't there. Were they killed, were they not
10 killed, I don't know. Following those meetings, I left for Vlasenica;
11 specifically, I went to the Vlasenica command, but I was following
13 Q. Did you go to Potocari on the 12th of July?
14 A. I don't know specifically the date that occurred, but after one
15 such meeting, we all went to Potocari, all those of us who attended that
16 meeting. So, yes, I did go to Potocari.
17 Q. So before going to Vlasenica you went to Potocari?
18 A. I don't think I quite understand. I misheard you.
19 Q. Well, I'll help you. The meeting that Mr. Zivanovic was talking
20 about took place in the Hotel Fontana on the morning of 12 July at 10.00
21 a.m. between General Mladic, civilian representatives of Bratunac,
22 yourself, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, DutchBat, and Muslims. You
23 remember that?
24 A. I do remember the meeting, but I don't remember Popovic being
1 Q. And where did you go after that meeting?
2 A. As far as I remember that day, at that meeting, I left with a
3 DutchBat officer for Kladanj. It had been agreed at the meeting that
4 this officer would be monitoring the passage of the Muslim population to
5 Kladanj. A corridor was to be made available to the population to use to
6 leave the area.
7 I've been thinking about this, and I think I spent that night in
8 Vlasenica. The DutchBat officer stayed behind in this passage. That
9 afternoon, a group crossed this area using this passage, a group
10 consisting of women, children, and elderly persons. I may have been in
11 Potocari on the morning of the 13th, but I can't say exactly.
12 Q. All right. Let me go back to the decision that we were talking
13 about. You said it wouldn't be made outside with yourself and
14 Momir Nikolic. Just to be clear, Mr. Zivanovic was not suggesting, nor
15 was Mr. Nikolic suggesting in that statement he read, that the decision
16 was made by you or Popovic.
17 Tell us how once a decision is made, a serious decision like this
18 is made, by General Mladic, in what command chain would this decision go
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: What kind of decision my friend speak about
22 because there is one decision that the witness answered that it is
23 possible that the one decision was made?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic. I don't think it needs
25 to be clarified, but if you could, please.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. I think talking about the decision you were referring to when you
4 "This sort of thing is never dealt with in this way."
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's asked and answered.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is pure obstruction.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Answer the question, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat that
9 question. Thank you.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey wants to know what would the chain of
11 command spreading of or distribution of such decision be once it is
12 taken? The question was:
13 "Tell us once a decision is made, a serious decision like the one
14 like this is made, by General Mladic, in what command chain would this
15 decision go through until it reaches those that need to know it?"
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally believe that when a
17 decision like that is taken at a meeting like that, the people who need
18 to be there are the people who would then be implementing that decision.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. And who would that be in the military organisation that you're
21 familiar with?
22 A. In my opinion, those summoned by the commander.
23 Q. And who would -- who would -- what branches would he naturally
24 summon in order to do something that had to do with the transfer --
25 transportation and the detention of large number of Muslim prisoners?
1 A. I'm afraid I can't say. I was in charge of intelligence myself.
2 That was my remit. I was never a member of the inner circle of the
3 collegium nor, indeed, was I an assistant of the Chief of Staff.
4 Q. Sir, you're a career -- you were a career JNA officer, you were a
5 career VJ officer, you were brought to the VRS in mid-June 1995 for your
6 expertise as a professional officer. So having your vast professionalism
7 in mind, who would General Mladic want to carry out such a job? What
8 branches would be dealing with the detention and transportation of
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, again it calls for speculation.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's based on his experience. If he doesn't know,
13 he will tell us he doesn't know. It's premised on the fact that he was
14 an experienced JNA officer, a professional officer, and that he was
15 placed where he was placed precisely because of this. So let's see.
16 Do you want the question repeated, Mr. Kosoric, or are you
17 still -- you still have it fresh in your mind?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My area of work was intelligence.
19 I never attended the staff command school or the national training
20 school. Those were higher-level schools for higher-level command duties.
21 The highest level that I reached was commander of a mechanised battalion.
22 Those are tactical units. There is nothing else for me to say.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't answered the question.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Sir, can you answer my question?
1 A. Can you please repeat.
2 Q. Who would General Mladic normally have -- what branches of his
3 military would he normally have to deal with the detention and the
4 transportation of large numbers of prisoners?
5 A. I can't answer that question. You should ask him or someone at
6 the same level.
7 Q. If you give me his address, I'll go talk to him. As an
8 intelligence officer, you would have been interested in interrogating
9 Muslim army folks on the morning of 12 July, wouldn't you?
10 A. Yes, but, as I said previously, General Krstic ordered for all
11 units to go to the Zepa enclave. Therefore, we no longer had anything to
12 do with Srebrenica or the population or, indeed, the Muslim soldiers.
13 That was the reason I never interrogated a single prisoner.
14 Q. So you must have been interested in those military men that were
15 in Potocari in that group of people, weren't you?
16 A. Of course I would have been interested in the line of duty, but,
17 as I said, I was ordered to go to Vlasenica to track down the staff
18 commander and to set up a forward command post towards Zepa. That was my
20 Q. Sir, you've already told us that you were in Potocari the day of
21 that Hotel Fontana meeting, 12 July, amongst those military men. Surely
22 you knew where those military-aged men were being held so you could
23 interview them. Tell us about it.
24 A. To be perfectly frank, I never spoke to a single Muslim soldier.
25 I never spoke to any of the population there. I was only there when
1 General Mladic was in Potocari and the group that left the hotel.
2 Immediately after that I was off to Vlasenica in order to track down the
3 staff commander who was then supposed to set up a forward command post
4 near Zepa.
5 Q. Who was that?
6 A. I don't understand the question.
7 Q. Who was the staff commander?
8 A. I don't know his name.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know any of the officers,
11 I didn't know any of their names. Amovic, Acimovic, something like that.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. When did the troops of the VRS move towards Zepa?
14 A. Based on my recollection, and I might be wrong, the 12th or the
15 13th, one of those two days.
16 Q. Well, sir, I don't think it's contested in this trial that the
17 forces of the Drina Corps left for Zepa on the 13th of July.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, it is contested as far as I know.
20 MR. HAYNES: I don't think the question can be put in that form
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Why, Mr. Haynes?
23 MR. HAYNES: Because, for one, my client has given very detailed
24 evidence about his movements which involve him moving from Srebrenica,
25 through Viogor, towards Zepa on the 12th. So to put the question in the
1 form that that is not contested is wholly misleading to the witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I think Mr. Haynes and Mr. Zivanovic are
4 Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I can --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: You'll rephrase it.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- rephrase it.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: It can easily be rephrased, but now you know what
9 the position is.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. It's the --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. -- testimony. You certainly know Mirko Trivic; correct?
15 A. I don't know. Mirko?
16 Q. He's the commander of the Romanija Brigade?
17 A. Could you repeat the name once again, I didn't get it.
18 Q. Mirko Trivic.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, I'm not sure the witness understood,
20 in full, your question because it was not noted in the transcript.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. Let me try again.
22 Q. Sir, there is quite a bit of evidence in this case that the
23 forces of the Drina Corps set off in the direction of Zepa and actually
24 went to the Zepa area, the Krivace forward command post on the morning of
25 13 July.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Haynes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that is so, yes.
3 MR. HAYNES: I think that's misleading. What does it mean "there
4 is quite a bit of evidence in this case"? He should ask an open
5 question, not put it in a misleading form.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, do you wish to comment or answer
7 Mr. McCloskey?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's a perfectly clear question that the
9 person answered, the witness answered.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, let me consult with my colleagues.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, let's move on. But, you know, avoid such
13 statements like "there is quite a bit of evidence" or "we know that."
14 Mr. Kosoric, if you could answer the question, please.
15 You have answered, actually. I think that is so. If you wish to
16 add anything to your answer, then please, go ahead.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Sir, where were you on the morning of 13 July? This is the day
21 after that Hotel Fontana meeting we spoke of that occurred on the 12th.
22 A. I am afraid I don't remember those details, but on the 13th, I
23 went to Vlasenica to find the commander of the staff command - I think
24 his name was Amovic - and to pass on the order that he should set up a
25 command post in the village of Krivace
1 the 13th, I did not go back.
2 Q. And how did you travel from Bratunac to Vlasenica on the 13th?
3 A. On the 13th I travelled, I think, in a Golf car.
4 Q. And which road did you take?
5 A. I took the main road, Bratunac-Vlasenica.
6 Q. So Bratunac-Kravica-Konjevic Polje-Milici-Vlasenica.
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. At about what time did you set off from Bratunac on the 13th to
9 do that?
10 A. I don't know, I really can't remember.
11 Q. Well, don't worry about time. Morning, noon, or night? Morning,
12 afternoon, or night?
13 A. I believe it was around noon
14 Q. And who ordered you to go?
15 A. I was ordered by General Krstic.
16 Q. Are you related to General Krstic?
17 A. Yes. He's my son-in-law [as interpreted], if that is a
19 Q. You're married to his --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment, because Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, translation is wrong, not son-in-law but
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Brother-in-law. All right. Thank you.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Sir, you're married to General Krstic's sister, I believe?
1 A. No. My late sister is General Krstic's wife.
2 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. Now, where was General Krstic
3 when he gave you the order to go to Vlasenica?
4 A. In Bratunac, in the hotel.
5 Q. And did you see Colonel Beara in the area of Bratunac or Potocari
6 those days?
7 A. I think I didn't. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Did you see Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic in the area of Potocari or
9 Bratunac those days?
10 A. During the Srebrenica operation, Popovic was not present there,
11 only General Krstic was there, the chief of the operations department - I
12 think his name was Obrad, he's a Colonel - and the commander of the
13 Signals Battalion, Jevdzevic, and myself.
14 Q. You mean Obrad Vicic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When did you first see Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic in the Bratunac
17 or Potocari area?
18 A. As far as I can remember, I saw him for the first time when
19 Srebrenica was taken, that is, when the Serb forces entered Srebrenica.
20 This was the 12th or the 13th.
21 Q. And where did you see him?
22 A. In the hotel.
23 Q. In fact, you were both staying at the Hotel Fontana; correct?
24 A. I was throughout with General Krstic in Srebrenica.
25 Q. And you were -- you were staying at the Hotel Fontana at the
1 time; correct?
2 A. As far as I can remember, for the first two days, I was at the
3 forward command post. If my recollection is right, at Pribicevac - that
4 is behind Zeleni Jadar - and after that, throughout, this could have been
5 the 8th, I was at the hotel because I brought two transporters of the
6 Dutch battalion and their soldiers. And upon orders, I put them up in
7 the hotel, and that is where they stayed. They slept at the hotel. And
8 I didn't go back to Pribicevac after that. I spent the entire time at
9 the hotel.
10 Q. Well, we have information that General Krstic, because of his bad
11 leg, was also staying at the hotel during this time-frame; is that
13 A. No, he wasn't. I think that he spent the night at Pribicevac
14 throughout, except when the operation was completed.
15 Q. And did Popovic spend the night at the hotel while you were
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Now, you're familiar with the trial of General Krstic, I take it.
19 You would have followed that trial as much as you could in the media when
20 it occurred several years ago; correct?
21 A. Yes, I followed it in the media.
22 Q. And did you follow the trial of Colonel Blagojevic and
23 Major Jokic that happened after that, the Srebrenica trial?
24 A. I did not. Only, if by chance, I would see it on television.
25 Q. And how about this trial, it's been going on for some three years
1 now, have you followed this trial?
2 A. No, because there is not much reporting in the media about it.
3 Q. Are you following it at all?
4 A. Not much.
5 Q. Where were you on 11 July when General Mladic and General Krstic
6 walked through the town of Srebrenica
7 A. I don't know if you understood me well. On the 8th, as far as I
8 remember, on the 8th of July I arrived at the hotel, and from then on, I
9 didn't see Krstic or General Mladic. I saw them again only that evening
10 on the 11th at the hotel.
11 Q. Where did you have dinner that evening on the 11th?
12 A. Probably at the hotel.
13 Q. Where did General Krstic/General Mladic have dinner that evening?
14 A. I don't know, they are generals. After all, I'm only a
16 Q. Mr. Borovcanin told us that he saw them having dinner at the
17 Hotel Fontana that evening. Surely if that's where you had dinner, you
18 can have seen them, even though you're only a lieutenant-colonel?
19 A. If I remember, I would have told you, because I've come here to
20 tell the truth and nothing but the truth, so I don't remember. And I
21 would have liked to have dinner with them.
22 Q. Now, the first meeting at the Hotel Fontana happened at about
23 8.00 p.m.
24 and the DutchBat people, Colonel Karremans?
25 A. I've already said, throughout that time I was a liaison officer
1 between the Main Staff -- or, rather, the corps command and the forces in
2 Potocari. I personally would bring, as well as Nikolic, representatives
3 of the Dutch battalion, representatives of the Muslims, to the meeting at
4 the hotel and take them back again to Potocari.
5 Q. Sir, my question was: You were at the meeting between
6 General Mladic and the Dutch battalion folks. After you brought the
7 Dutch guys there, that first meeting, you stayed; correct?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Okay. And the second meeting, did you go into Potocari and help
10 bring back the Dutch and the Muslim representative to the hotel?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you stay at the second meeting?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. I want to show you a short video-clip of that meeting,
15 that second one and ask you a few questions about it.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that should be Exhibit 2047. And this --
17 Q. Before we start playing that, have you seen the video that's been
18 out in public about that meeting for several years now?
19 A. I don't know until I see the video.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. Have you seen any video of that second Hotel Fontana meeting?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. Okay, well, let's see if this will help refresh your
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Excuse me, Colonel. We're having a little trouble, that first
5 one with them standing was the first meeting. This is the second
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "I'm glad that we found Mr. Mandic. And what we have done in the
9 short time tonight is putting ... put on a piece of paper the first
10 general thoughts about the evacuation of the population. But also what
11 are the first needs for the people.
12 "If I may follow the list. I will start with what is from --
13 from the compound of Potocari and in the factories around the compound.
14 We have now approximately between 15.000 and 20.000 persons. There are
15 still persons coming in. We are accompanying them -- we are
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Do you remember that pig being killed outside during the meeting?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, where is the information that it was a
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's been proved over the years, and it's a
24 perfectly legitimate question. Mr. Mandic had testified it was a pig.
25 He's heard a lot of pigs killed. I don't think that's an issue.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Mr. Mandic didn't testify in this case.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: It doesn't matter.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but perhaps you can ask him what that was, if
5 it wasn't a pig.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. You're Bosnian, Colonel, do you know what that sound was?
8 A. I said I wasn't a colonel, I am a lieutenant-colonel. I do eat
9 pork, but I find this rather funny. I don't believe they had pork to
10 eat. I really find this a bit ridiculous. I am attending a trial, and I
11 am in a courtroom for the first time, and I am astonished.
12 Q. Sir, it's the position of the Prosecution that General Mladic was
13 intending to scare the Muslim representative, and by doing, so he had
14 someone slaughter a pig outside the window. You were there. Did you
15 hear that noise that we heard on the tape?
16 A. This is ridiculous. First of all, this General Mladic would
17 not -- such a thing would never occur to him. I have no comment.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: There was another part to the question, whether you
19 remember hearing those sounds.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. And I would have heard them
21 for sure.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 "To find a place somewhere, to find a place somewhere. And we
25 have between those refugees 88 wounded persons, of which four are very
1 severe. And I heard from the Medecins Sans Frontieres" --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: We are going to flip a little bit forward to save
3 some time in the meeting.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. What do you think General Mladic meant by those words, your
7 people survive or vanish, talking about the salvation of his people?
8 A. I don't know what he meant. He said what he said, I have no
9 comments to make. I am no expert to be able to assess his words and his
10 views. He said what he said, and what he said was correct, was true.
11 Q. What was true about it?
12 A. What he just said.
13 Q. Tell me, which part of what he said was true?
14 A. What you just heard. You heard what he said. I don't understand
15 what you're asking me. I'm not a psychologist or -- to assess the man to
16 evaluate the man. I don't know why you are asking me this.
17 Q. Let's continue.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. It's not a very good shot, but did you see yourself there at
22 A. Looking at the screen, the person with his back turned, that is
23 me. You can see the left part of my shoulder and my head, at least I
24 think it's me.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: And just a couple of stills before, it showed quite
1 a big mustache, so perhaps you could clarify that to make sure we are
2 talking of him.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will try to catch that distinctive feature.
4 Ms. Stewart can ...
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. I think we can see your mustache.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, leave it. I could see it because I
9 expected -- I anticipated what you're question was going to be, so I was
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can just finish this. It's
12 practically done, I think.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 JUDGE AGIUS: In this last part, the mustache was a bit clearer.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. One last question: Sir, he says basically he wants the Muslim
19 army to lay down their hands, and he says:
20 "If you do that, you'll save your people from destruction."
21 What did he mean by that?
22 A. I don't know. You're much more of an expert to assess that than
23 I am.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's break time.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's have a break, 25 minutes. Thank you.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President, and I would like to
6 call the counsel's attention to adjudicated fact number 183 regarding,
7 that's 26th September, 2006, relating to the pig in the meeting.
8 Q. All right. And lieutenant-colonel and everyone, I hope to finish
9 this -- this session.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. All right. Now, did you go get the Muslim representatives, the
13 morning of the 12th, and bring them to the Hotel Fontana meeting like you
14 did the previous evening?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you see Momir Nikolic around the hotel that morning?
17 A. I think Momir Nikolic came with me.
18 Q. All right. And did you see Vujadin Popovic around the hotel,
19 that morning of the 12th?
20 A. No, I don't remember.
21 Q. Were you at the meeting with him on the 12th?
22 A. I was at all the meetings when DutchBat representatives were
23 there and Muslim representatives, too.
24 Q. Well, were you with -- was Colonel Popovic at that meeting with
25 that group on the 12th of July?
1 A. No, I can't remember.
2 Q. Didn't the Drina Corps security branch and the Drina Corps
3 intelligence branches work closely together in your normal work sharing
4 intelligence, security matters, prisoners of war, interviews, that sort
5 of thing?
6 A. The two branches were separate. They were entirely separate
7 establishment-wise within the corps. Popovic was subordinated to the
8 commander, he was assistant commander, and I was assistant Chief of Staff
9 of intelligence.
10 Q. Yes, the Trial Chamber, everyone is aware of that, but that
11 wasn't my question. Can you answer my question?
12 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
13 Q. Didn't -- in the normal course of your work, didn't you work
14 closely with the security branch of the Drina Corps?
15 A. We did not work closely together. We each did our own jobs, and
16 then whenever there was information of interest to either of our branches
17 we would exchange any such information.
18 Q. So were you a close colleague of Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic?
19 A. Not a close colleague. I first met him when I came to the
21 Q. All right. Well, we'll get into that a bit later.
22 Now, let me show you a video-clip shot around the Hotel Fontana,
23 the morning of the 12 July.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should be Exhibit 2047.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. We've stopped it at 01.42.50.6.
2 Q. And can you, starting from the left, from your left-hand
3 screen -- yes, if you can -- better put your glasses on, can you -- do
4 you recognise the people in this still?
5 A. The one standing outside the door is Mladic's escort, and the one
6 standing to his right is Popovic. I do not recognise the other two
8 Q. Okay, and when you say "standing to his right," you mean the
9 right of the picture as we see it. It's actually standing to the guys's
10 left shoulder?
11 A. Yes, the one with a cigarette in his hand. That's Popovic.
12 Q. And surely you know Radoslav Jankovic, Colonel, intel department.
13 A. No, I was never in touch with that person.
14 Q. Well, he was at the meeting -- both meetings on 11th of July, the
15 previous meeting, sitting there next to General Mladic, or standing next
16 to Mladic at the first meeting while Mladic was shouting at
17 Colonel Karremans. Like you, he came over from the VJ in 1995.
18 A. I don't know Jankovic. There was a colonel there whom I didn't
19 know, and we had no contacts, a professional or private.
20 Q. And how about the fellow on the left side of the screen with his
21 right hand in his pocket. Does that look like a nice profile of
22 Momir Nikolic to you?
23 A. I don't think that's him. He had black hair. I don't think that
24 is Momir Nikolic. He looks different, or else I've forgot.
25 Q. All right. Let's continue to play it.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Okay. That's -- that's clearly you with the --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And everybody in this shot has a mustache, I guess. Who's the
6 person that's got the back to the camera that you're looking at?
7 A. I don't know. The man over to the right, I think, is the
8 DutchBat commander.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Over to the left.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. So that's Colonel Karremans, the fellow with the white hair?
12 A. Probably.
13 Q. And could this be Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic that you're looking
14 at or looking in the direction of, the fellow with his back to us?
15 A. Frankly, I don't know.
16 Q. All right. Let's keep going.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's Popovic.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's keep going.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I should for the record -- sorry, say that was --
22 Popovic was identified at screen number 01.42.55, and we can continue on.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Okay. Let's -- there is two people whose faces we clearly see.
1 There is a Dutch -- well, we see a Dutch soldier with glasses on. Do you
2 remember Major Boering?
3 A. I don't remember any of their names.
4 Q. Well, do you remember the major that -- I think he went out to
5 Kladanj with you?
6 A. No. I don't think I recognise him. The only person I recognise
7 here is the commander with the mustache, grey hair.
8 Q. Okay. Do you see yourself in this -- in this clip?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You're right over to the right of the screen?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At 01.44.28 with your distinctive mustache.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's keep going.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's keep going and see if we can --
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Do you see Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic there?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let's go back. Let's just take a look in the right-hand part of
21 the screen. Well, let's go forward, I think he comes in again.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see him now.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's continue. Okay, thank you,
25 01.44.38, we see Popovic in the right-hand part of the screen with a
1 mustache leaning over towards Mr. Mandic.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. We just saw you lean over and pick up a notebook. Have you had a
5 chance to review any wartime notebooks before coming here to testify?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you keep your wartime notebook?
8 A. No.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's keep going.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. What did you do with it?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. I didn't keep
12 too many records at the time. I had the intelligence report that I had
13 to submit to the Main Staff or another one to my subordinate units. That
14 was the extent of the documentation that I was involved in.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. Have you had a chance to review any documents before coming here
18 and testifying?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you make any effort to find any documents or any materials
21 before coming here to testify?
22 A. No. I did try to think back and remember all those developments.
23 Q. Did you take notes as you were thinking back to help sort out
24 your thoughts, like we all do sometimes?
25 A. No. No. I do have a rough idea of what I do remember and what I
1 don't remember.
2 Q. So what do you remember about the murders of the Muslim men?
3 A. I remember nothing at all about that because I wasn't there. I
4 did not see any murders occur.
5 Q. You spent in night in Bratunac on the night of the 12th; right?
6 A. Not the night between the 12th and the 13th. On the 12th, as far
7 as I remember, I was on my way with that DutchBat officer to Kladanj, and
8 I spent the night in Vlasenica.
9 Q. Well, we've gone over that once, we'll go over it again a bit
11 Let's just continue the video.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. All right. Lieutenant-colonel, we see then Mladic saying that -
15 and referring to the words of the previous night - survival or disappear,
16 and conditioning that on the laying down of the arms of the Muslim army.
17 Now, on the 12th of July, the Muslim army, what did they do?
18 A. Can you repeat the question, please? What they did, I don't
19 understand what you mean by that.
20 Q. Well, did the Muslim army, on the 12th of July, make a breakout
21 through the enclave area, from the area of Jablici [phoen], Susnjari,
22 along the axis of Ravni Buljin-Konjevic Polje, towards Cerska?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And General Mladic knew that on the 12th of July, didn't he?
25 A. He should have known. I don't know whether he did.
1 Q. And at what point, on the 12th of July, did you know that the
2 Muslims were doing that, going in that direction, and not laying down
3 their weapons?
4 A. I don't remember the exact time-line, but my assumption was that
5 they would try to break out and escape towards Tuzla or Serbia
6 as much to the Chief of Staff, General Krstic. That was my assessment.
7 Q. So were you aware of General Mladic's reaction when he found out,
8 on the 12th of July, that despite his three warnings of survive or
9 disappear, the Muslim army did not lay down their arms, and they drove
10 through the enclave. How did he react to that?
11 A. I don't know how he reacted. I don't know. I was not with him.
12 The commanders who were with him probably knew. I was a mere assistant
13 Chief of Staff in the corps. I did not attend any meetings where such
14 decisions were taken.
15 Q. What did you do when that meeting that we saw you at got out, the
16 morning of the 12th of July, probably sometime 11.00 or so? What did you
17 do? You must have thought about this.
18 A. I don't remember. I just had to say my bit, and it wasn't my
19 place to think about what the command and control section would be doing.
20 Q. What was your bit, and who did you say it to?
21 A. My opinion, which I shared with General Krstic, the Chief of
23 Q. And what was that?
24 A. That the Muslim armed forces would probably attempt to break
25 through in the direction of Tuzla
1 those who were refusing to surrender and lay down their weapons.
2 Q. And where did you get that intelligence information?
3 A. That was my own assessment. I had been involved in intelligence
4 work alone for about ten years, previously. It was my job to make
5 assessments, such as those, and it was down to the commanders to decide
6 whether they would lend any credence to my assessment or not.
7 Q. Of course. But you would have relied on, in part, intelligence
8 information you're receiving from people, say, Momir Nikolic, for
9 example. He knew the area, he knew the terrain, so did you receive any
10 information from Momir Nikolic that you passed on to General Krstic?
11 A. This was my own assessment, specifically. There were no Muslim
12 soldiers in Potocari and that was the reason I made that assessment.
13 Q. Were you with Momir Nikolic outside the Hotel Fontana after that
14 meeting on the 12th of July?
15 A. I don't remember. He did share intelligence with me, though. He
16 was one of my subordinates, according to the intelligence chain of
18 Q. So we've heard testimony in this case from a Dutch major,
19 Major Boering, who was at that meeting, and basically said that he went
20 to Potocari and then realised there was lots of details he wasn't aware
21 of, and he went back to Bratunac. And he says this on page 1976:
22 "I then drove back to Bratunac and the Hotel Fontana, and I
23 attempted to establish contact. After trying to find out some things, I
24 ran into Major Nikolic, who said that everything had been agreed upon,
25 that I should get lost, that there was no business of my mine here, that
1 things had already started, and that I should leave immediately. He very
2 clearly was not at all appreciating my return.
3 "I then drove back and already saw that coaches were driving from
4 Bratunac into the direction of Potocari."
6 "And was there any other VRS officer if you recall with Momir
7 Nikolic when you saw him and he told you what you just explained to get
9 The answer:
10 "I believe that also the gentleman with the mustache, responsible
11 for transport, was present there as well."
13 "Is that the one that you refer to as Kosovic or Kosoric?"
15 "Yes, it is."
16 So does that help you recall the, sort of, lost Dutch man coming
17 back and asking Mr. Nikolic what they were to do and Mr. Nikolic sending
18 him back to Potocari?
19 A. I don't know about that. I only know that before the buses I was
20 off with an officer to Kladanj in order to make sure there was a safe
21 passage. You should probably ask the officer who came to Kladanj with
22 me, and he can confirm my response.
23 Q. And that Dutch officer, did he walk on towards Kladanj after you
24 reached that spot that we call Luke?
25 A. I'm happy to explain that because I actually remember that. When
1 the two of us arrived, I'm not sure whether anyone else was there, we
2 found the commander of the Vlasenac [phoen] Brigade, and another person
3 who was probably his Chief of Staff. I spoke to both of them, conveying
4 General Krstic's order. The order was as follows: Secure unhindered
5 passage for all those wishing to go to Kladanj.
6 I left that officer there and went back to Vlasenica myself to
7 wash and to rest. Frankly, I really don't know what happened later on.
8 Q. Okay. Prior to -- now, when you say "Vlasenica," where,
9 actually, did you leave this officer? At the drop-off spot, at Luke, at
10 the confrontation line, or somewhere in Vlasenica?
11 A. No, I left him in Luke with the commander. I'm not sure if he
12 was a chief or a commander. He was a representative of that brigade
13 command, and that's where I left the officer.
14 Q. And where did you go after resting?
15 A. I left for Vlasenica to wash and to rest. The morning on the
16 13th, I was expected back in Bratunac.
17 Q. Now, before going to Luke with this Dutch officer, did you go to
19 A. I did go to Potocari one of those days, I can't remember which
20 exactly. Mladic was there as well and all those who attended the meeting
21 at the hotel was off to Potocari, but I can't remember whether it was the
22 12th or the 13th.
23 Q. And were Muslims getting on buses when you were there?
24 A. No, they weren't. I didn't see Muslims. I did see Muslims in
25 Potocari, and I saw soldiers of the Dutch battalion.
1 Q. Did you see vehicles, buses, trucks?
2 A. As far as I can remember, there were some buses and trucks, but I
3 didn't see people boarding them.
4 Q. Were there military-age men in that crowd of Muslims?
5 A. To be quite frank, I don't know. It was a large group of people,
6 men, women, children, old and young, I don't remember. There were all
7 kinds there.
8 Q. Were you interested that some of them could have been officers from
9 the 28th Division with valuable information right there in your hands?
10 A. I didn't show an interest because the order had already reached
11 us that we were to go to the Zepa enclave and that this was going to be
12 taken over by other organs.
13 Q. What was going to be taken over by other organs?
14 A. The civilian authorities and as far as the military is concerned,
15 that the Drina Corps had nothing to do with it, that it was the business
16 of the Main Staff.
17 Q. What was? What was the business of the Main Staff?
18 A. The entire organisation of security and protection of the
19 population in the territory of Srebrenica
20 Q. Were you aware that able-bodied men were being separated from
21 their families while you were in Potocari?
22 A. I am not aware of such case.
23 Q. Were you aware at any time on the 12th or 13th of July that
24 able-bodied Muslim men were separated from their families in Potocari?
25 A. I am not aware of that.
1 Q. Were you aware on 12th of July that hundreds of able-bodied
2 Muslim men were separated from Potocari, detained in at least one small
3 unfinished house in Potocari, and then transported to a hangar near
4 schools in Bratunac for the night of 12 July?
5 A. I am not aware of that.
6 Q. Did you hear what happened to some of these men on the 12th of
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you or the Drina Corps make any effort to feed any
10 able-bodied men from Potocari?
11 A. I don't know who engaged in any such activities. I didn't see
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's play a video-clip.
15 Q. See if this helps refresh your recollection.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should be Exhibit 2047. And we're starting at
18 Q. And surely you recognise General Krstic in this shot.
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And as you'll see, he's giving an interview to the press. So
21 let's watch this.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Do you see yourself there?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. And that's at 02.04.26. We see buses behind you. We also see a
2 white-haired man behind you. Do you remember standing around while
3 officers are giving interviews to the press?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. What you are doing there?
6 A. I have already said that after the meeting with Mladic at the
7 hotel and with representatives of the Dutch battalion and the Muslims,
8 all of us went to Potocari because Mladic wanted to address the people of
10 Q. So what were you doing there?
11 A. I've already answered your question. We -- all of us went there.
12 Mladic said that we should all go to Potocari for him to address the
13 people of Srebrenica. I couldn't avoid it.
14 Q. So were you doing any intelligence work?
15 A. I was not.
16 Q. You were just part of Mladic's entourage?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. And you did nothing else?
19 A. Nothing.
20 Q. And how long did you stay in Potocari?
21 A. As far as I can remember from this distance, 15-20 minutes, maybe
22 half an hour, roughly for as long as Mladic stayed there; that is, the
23 same amount of time that I and all the others in the group stayed there.
24 Q. Was this before or after you took your trip to Luke with the
25 Dutch officer?
1 A. This could only have happened before that. Because immediately
2 after that, I left with the Dutch officer to Luke.
3 Q. So part of your job of going all the way to Luke was helping
4 organise the route that the evacuation would take?
5 A. My task was to go to Luke and to pass on the order that the path
6 should be made free for the passage of the persons from Srebrenica, those
7 who wished to go.
8 Q. So clearly your job in helping to assist the transportation route
9 would have started in Potocari so you could get an idea of the number of
10 people that would be moved, the kinds of vehicles that would be moving
11 them, fuel, other things that might help this job happen; right? It
12 didn't just you would begin -- or did it just suddenly begin with you
13 just driving to Luke?
14 A. You didn't understand what I was saying. I had nothing to do
15 with the organisation, the transportation, and the rest. My only task
16 was to go with the DutchBat officer to Luke and to ensure free passage.
17 As for the route and everything else, I had absolutely nothing to do with
18 it because it is not within the purview of my intelligence work. I
19 strictly adhered to my responsibilities. Transportation, logistics,
20 food, that is the responsibility of other organs.
21 Q. But you'll agree that aside from General Mladic and, I believe,
22 Colonel Jankovic, you were the only one who was at all three meetings who
23 helped organise all this. So you would have had more knowledge about
24 this than anyone?
25 A. I keep telling you what it is that I was doing, but you're
1 refusing to understand me. My job was the job of liaison officer. I was
2 a liaison officer. My task was to go from the hotel to Potocari, and
3 from Potocari to the hotel. As for others, Jankovic and the others, I
4 don't even know Jankovic. I had nothing to do with them.
5 Q. All right. Let's continue with the video.
6 [Video-clip played]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Also the site.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- concerned about.
23 Good memory, that's right.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed. We are going to show it, but
1 not broadcast.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Okay. You can see that they only got one part of the
4 conversation, and, as you can see, it -- the persons asking "is it Cica?"
5 And it makes a reference to a Pop, or Popa.
6 What was the nickname for Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic?
7 A. Popovic or Pop, that's how we called him.
8 Q. Okay. On July 9th, were you with Momir Nikolic in Bratunac?
9 A. Whether I was there on the 9th, I'm not sure, but I told you that
10 probably from the 8th until the 12th, I was continuously in Bratunac.
11 Q. Did you get any Muslim prisoners during that time?
12 A. I did not.
13 Q. Did the army?
14 A. I don't know. I'm unable to tell you that. If anyone knows,
15 then it should be Nikolic.
16 Q. Well, you were still an intelligence officer.
17 A. Yes, I was, but I'm assistant Chief of Staff of -- in the corps.
18 I cannot know how many prisoners they may have had in seven or eight
19 brigades. I would just receive written reports from them or intelligence
20 reports. I didn't have time to tour all the brigades and to talk to all
21 the prisoners. Those conversations were conducted by the organs in the
22 brigade and not me.
23 Q. Well, had there been -- had there been prisoners on July 9th when
24 heavy fighting was going on, I'm sure you'll agree with me that
25 Vinko Pandurevic's troops were involved in fighting, you would have
1 wanted intelligence from prisoners to be able to send down to the various
2 brigade units, such as the kind of information you may get from a
3 prisoner; the location of the enemy forces, the strength of the enemy
4 forces. So, surely, you would have remembered had you had prisoners and
5 received that kind of important intelligence. You were the man that was
6 right there by your own words.
7 A. Yes, I was right there, but I didn't speak to them personally,
8 and I didn't know that they had prisoners at the level of the tactical
9 group or battalion companies. They interviewed people and gave
10 assessments and passed them on to the superior command. In those days, I
11 didn't speak to a single captured Muslim soldier.
12 Q. Well, that wasn't my question. Did you receive intelligence from
13 captured soldiers on the 8th, 9th, that time-period. It would have come
14 up the chain to you. Did you receive that intelligence?
15 A. It didn't come to me personally. It could only come in if you
16 sent it in encrypted form to my deputy who was in Vlasenica,
17 because throughout that period I couldn't read intelligence reports as I
18 was in the field.
19 Q. You didn't get intelligence in the field? You're at the forward
20 command post and you're not reading any intelligence reports or getting
21 any intelligence; is that what you're telling this Trial Chamber?
22 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I didn't read them. I said, and I
23 say it again, I was not at the forward command post from the 7th to the
24 11th. I returned to Bratunac and I was at the hotel, and I say that with
25 full responsibility.
1 Q. And you didn't receive any -- well, I'll just leave it at that.
2 When did General Krstic become commander of the Drina Corps?
3 A. As far as I can remember, he officially took over the corps in
4 the second half of July. That was when there was the take-over of duty
5 between him and the previous commander. Maybe the 21st -- or, I don't
6 know exactly, within a period of two or three days around that date.
7 Q. Well, surely you would have heard of the small ceremony that
8 occurred on the evening of 13 July in Vlasenica where General Mladic
9 assembled the officers there, including Major Golic, who has told the OTP
10 about this, where Mladic told the assembled group that now General Krstic
11 was the commander of the corps and General Zivanovic was no longer a
13 Certainly you would have known that; correct?
14 A. Yes, I know that. I heard of that. But this was just an oral
15 order, but the official take-over of duty between the old and new
16 commander took place when I just said.
17 Q. Well, Mladic's oral order is a binding order; isn't it?
18 A. Yes, but a written order is a written order.
19 Q. So General Krstic was the commander on the evening of 13 July
20 after Mladic had that ceremony and did what he did; right?
21 A. That was an oral order, but in an army, what becomes official is
22 once the documents are signed and the duty is officially handed over and
23 taken over. It is from that moment that you become a commander.
24 Q. What do you know about the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
25 A. The 10th Sabotage Detachment was a detachment of the Main Staff
1 of the VRS. Do I need to say anything more?
2 Q. Whatever else you know about it.
3 A. I don't know anything in particular about them. I know their
4 commander because he worked in the same unit in Belgrade as I did. Now,
5 what activities they engaged in, I don't know. He was subordinated to
6 the Main Staff, and they worked for the Main Staff.
7 Q. Well, they had a specific intel function too, didn't they?
8 A. Probably they worked for their superior. They had no contact
9 with me.
10 Q. But they had an intel function, didn't they?
11 A. They must have had, but they didn't cooperate with me. They
12 submitted their reports to the Main Staff and their own superior.
13 Q. And who was that?
14 A. The chief of the intelligence administration was
15 Colonel Salapura.
16 Q. And did you see Colonel Salapura in Bratunac when he was there?
17 A. I did not, I did not.
18 Q. And have you been to the 10th Sabotage Unit headquarters outside
19 of Vlasenica?
20 A. I didn't quite understand what you mean.
21 Q. Where was the 10th Sabotage Detachment located?
22 A. As far as I can recollect, their command was in Bijeljina.
23 That's what I think, at least, but I don't know for sure. And they had a
24 post near Tisce, several houses where they stayed there.
25 Q. And were you -- did you visit there near their place near Tisce?
1 A. I didn't visit them, but I know roughly where they were. I had
2 no need to visit them. They were not subordinated to me.
3 Q. All right.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to an exhibit, number 1999.
5 Q. And I'm going to play you portions of this video and ask you some
6 questions. We see that it starts out in the Cyrillic. That gives the
7 date of the intercept -- or excuse me, of the video, as 14 October, 1995.
8 And it's the first anniversary of Vlasenica.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. McCLOSKEY:
11 Q. Do you remember going to this ceremony of their -- of October
13 A. Yes, I remember.
14 Q. Did you go?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. And did Popovic go?
17 A. Now, who was there I can't remember. I see here in the clip
18 Krstic, and we went there on the occasion of their anniversary, and they
19 carried out a drill to demonstrate the work of their unit, and we were
20 invited as guests.
21 Q. Why would the chief of Drina Corps intel go to a Main Staff
22 function like this?
23 A. This is not the Main Staff. This is a unit that was
24 demonstrating a drill in Vlasenica. They were demonstrating their
25 weapons, their combat abilities, climbing up and down a building, and
1 that is why it was interesting. And the corps command was in Vlasenica,
2 so we went there as guests, we were invited to go there.
3 Q. Well, let's take had a look at this and maybe you can help
4 determine where this is. I don't think it's in Vlasenica, not in the
5 city, anyway.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Okay, we just heard the name Erdemovic, Drazen. You must recall
9 when he was arrested in Serbia
10 to The Hague
11 summary execution of some 1200 people on July 16th, 1995, a few months
12 before he got an award here at this ceremony. Do you remember all that
13 news in Belgrade
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So in October of 1995 you were surely aware, as the chief of
16 intelligence of the Drina Corps, that this unit, the 10th Sabotage Unit,
17 had been involved in murdering prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade area;
19 A. I don't know where they operated.
20 Q. Can you answer my question. Were you aware of the murders they
21 comitted near Pilica?
22 A. I know nothing about that. All I know is based on media
23 coverage. All I know is what was actually recorded in the media and on
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Sir, do you recognise yourself standing there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's continue it, briefly.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Do you recognise the person over your left shoulder in this
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who is that, for the record?
12 A. Popovic.
13 Q. The accused in this case?
14 A. Yes. Perhaps not. I don't know. Now that I've had a closer
15 look, I'm not sure.
16 Q. Well, let's play it. Take a good look.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I don't know about the
19 previous image, though.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. So, at this anniversary function, was there any discussions at
22 all of the 10th Sabotage murdering people?
23 A. Not that I remember.
24 Q. All right. Now, I want to talk to you a little bit about Zepa,
25 though, I don't think we need to go through the whole -- the whole film.
1 There is a longer film, but I don't think we need to play it all.
2 One more question: Does that just -- seeing these woods and this
3 house, does that refresh your recollection of where, actually, you were
4 that day?
5 A. I can't remember specifically. I do remember some certain
6 sections. There was a drill going on at Loznica [as interpreted],
7 special units climbing house roofs. This was probably outside Vlasenica,
8 and they were training soldiers about all sorts of technical information
9 and then weapon details, different kinds of weapons. I'm not sure. This
10 was outside any settled area, and obviously this was a place where --
11 that they chose to show these soldiers how these weapons were used.
12 Q. All right. So is this in a little village not far from Vlasenica
13 where the 10th Sabotage that barracks? Sir, did you get a translation of
14 my question?
15 A. No, I didn't understand the question. I said this was somewhere
16 outside where they did some shooting practice, and they used various
17 weapons, but I don't know where exactly. It's certainly outside
19 Q. All right. Now, Zepa. You were General Krstic's intel officer
20 for Zepa; is that right?
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
22 MR. JOSSE: It might be advisable if the Trial Chamber check with
23 the witness whether he spoke -- understands English and invite him to
24 take his headphones off.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Do you -- before I ask the
1 witness the question, do you have any information?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I don't, but I think it -- it might --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, Mr. Kosoric, do you understand English?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Nothing at all?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing at all.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can you remove your headphones for a
8 while, please.
9 Yes, Mr. Josse.
10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honours, our submission is that the Prosecution
11 should not be permitted to ask the witness any questions about this
12 particular topic.
13 The witness has been brought here under an unusual and quite rare
14 procedure. He's come here to give evidence in response to the testimony
15 of Momir Nikolic. Momir Nikolic was called, as I, of course, don't need
16 to remind you, as a witness of the Trial Chamber. Thereafter, the
17 Defence for Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic sought leave to add this
18 particular gentleman to their 65 ter list, and the reality is the only
19 reason they did that and the only reason they were allowed to do that was
20 to respond to the fairly narrow issues that arose in relation to
21 Nikolic's evidence.
22 Now, Your Honours, we have not objected to the broadening of the
23 questions that my learned friend has asked for a number of reasons, but
24 primarily because he has stuck within the remit of Srebrenica and
25 Potocari. And it's certainly arguable that that's relevant to what
1 Momir Nikolic had to say, but Momir Nikolic gave no evidence at all in
2 relation to Zepa. And in our submission, the fact that this witness has
3 been called in response to Miomir Nikolic's evidence is not a green light
4 for the Prosecution to ask him about absolutely every aspect of the case,
5 and in particular about Zepa. And we contend that this particular
6 procedure needs to be kept within very close and narrow bounds, and if
7 the Trial Chamber allows my learned friend to ask the witness about Zepa,
8 it's far outside the boundaries of what should be permitted,
9 particularly, if I could end where I begun, bearing in mind the unusual
10 and rare procedure that brought him here in the first place.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
12 Mr. McCloskey, would you like to comment.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, you would say
14 there is nothing unusual or rare about this procedure. It's a perfectly
15 normal, appropriate part of this Tribunal.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Skip that.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this was brought as a Defence witness in a
18 case where joint criminal enterprise to move out the populations of
19 Srebrenica and Zepa is charged. As Directive 7 reminds us, Srebrenica
20 and Zepa, basically, the Muslims of Eastern Bosnia. We have the chief of
21 the Drina Corps intelligence, who we see was intimately involved in the
22 first joint criminal enterprise -- the first part of the joint criminal
23 enterprise, setting out the roadway, by his own words, upon which the
24 Muslims were being move out. To call a witness of this calibre, of this
25 high rank, and to limit his testimony to only part of the joint criminal
1 enterprise that he played such a crucial role in would be doing a
2 disservice to the trier of fact.
3 I -- as you can see, I've said I'm not intending to spend a lot
4 of time in Zepa, but he's also tended to try to distance himself from
5 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, and I have some video of him and
6 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic together that I think is important to show you
7 that the distance that he's talking about is -- is not accurate. So on
8 those two grounds, I would like some time to go there.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Let me consult with my
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a decision, a majority decision, Judge Kwon
13 disagreeing. We are of the opinion and conclude that since what you have
14 explained does relate also to the credibility of witness and consider
15 also that subparagraph (ii) of paragraph (h) of Rule 90 does allow
16 cross-examination to expand on where the witness is able to give evidence
17 relevant to the case for the cross-examining party. Due to the subject
18 matter of the case, we are allowing the question.
19 However, we are also in agreement that considering this late
20 stage of the proceedings, we are -- we conclude that you should limit --
21 use your discretion and limit your question to the bearest possible and
22 not expand as much as you would like.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just for -- not in agreement, it should not have
24 been allowed at all given the late stage of the trial.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that's clear to you now, so let's
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 MR. JOSSE: [Microphone not activated]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. I'd like to show you a video. It's Exhibit 4567, and it's dated,
6 we believe, 22 August 1995
7 have you together again with Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic. And given your
8 answers -- excuse me, 4568, and it's not Borike it should be area of --
9 perhaps the area of Gorazde. And I just want to ask you about what
10 you're doing with Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Do you recognise that area, 22 August? Very distinctive bridge
14 and river.
15 A. I don't quite remember this. I don't have this very image in my
16 head. I don't remember the location. If I look again ...
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see it again, maybe he remembers now.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This could be Rogatica, possibly.
22 There is this young man with the apple, and he hails from Rogatica, but I
23 can't really tell you when we were there and what exactly we were doing.
24 It was probably a lunch that we had there or something like that.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Were you doing military work together?
2 A. No, we each did our own work.
3 Q. So you were doing nothing together aside from having lunch?
4 A. Certainly not.
5 Q. What's the comment about war criminals about?
6 A. I have no idea. I really don't remember. I don't remember this
7 footage, and I don't remember the meeting.
8 Q. All right. Who was the -- what's the name of the guy with the
10 A. His name is Zoran, Zoran Carkic. I think so, unless I've
12 Q. And what was his position?
13 A. He was with the Rogatica Brigade, assistant commander for
14 security and intelligence.
15 Q. So in thinking about it now, you're with two security officers.
16 Do you have any memory of what you were doing?
17 A. The first thing you have to understand is the Zoran appearing
18 here is assistant commander for security. He's Popovic's subordinate in
19 terms of his technical duties. He's also an assistant for intelligence,
20 which makes him subordinate to me. It was probably in the same day that
21 both Popovic and I chanced to simply be with him.
22 Q. All right. Now, taking you into Zepa, you were -- were you
23 General Krstic's intel officer for the Zepa operation?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. And we have evidence from the brigade commander who you don't
1 remember, Mirko Trivic.
2 In his notebook of Zepa, it says on the 23rd that:
3 "Leave part of the forces at Bezimeni, Vis, under Strmica and
4 attack forces in the sector," and then it says, "task: Purtici village!
5 Deadline until 1400 hours to bring the forces to the bridgehead."
6 First of all, can you tell us what a bridgehead is in this
8 A. I can't explain anything about our own forces. I was an
9 intelligence officer, and I don't know what assignments exactly the units
10 were given. It wasn't my job.
11 Q. Sir, my question was purely what does the term "bridgehead" mean?
12 A. I don't know. I don't know how he issued that assignment, and I
13 understood nothing about that.
14 Q. What is a bridgehead?
15 JUDGE AGIUS: He told you he doesn't know.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he's telling me he doesn't know what the
17 assignment was, I'm just asking him the word.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Why don't you find the word in B/C/S in
19 the original document and put to him that particular -- that exact word
20 and see whether it has been translated correctly in the first place.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. That's a good idea. I
22 can hand the witness the handwritten --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection from -- Mr. Zivanovic? None. So
24 Usher, please, if you could assist.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel, I am just looking for the meaning of this
2 word, and you'll see it's the last word --
3 JUDGE KWON: Put it on the ELMO.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we see it on the ELMO, please.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, this is P04309, page 48.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it's the last part that your attention is
7 being drawn to. Can you explain what you understand by that, please,
8 especially the last word?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He probably meant for new forces to
10 be introduced. That was probably what he had in mind. This is such
11 shorthand, such artist shorthand that I fail to understand what it means.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Sir, what's that last word with the exclamation point next to it?
14 Can you just read it out in your language?
15 A. Bridge railing. It could be a bridge. It's simply not clear.
16 I'm not sure what I should answer. If I knew, I'd be glad to provide a
17 response, but it's probably about introduction of new forces into that
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we just get from the translator what he is
20 saying in Serbian, what is that last word?
21 Q. Can you say that last word all by itself, just slowly and
23 A. Purtici village, dead-line by 1400 hours for forces to be
24 introduced to the bridgehead or the bridge railing. It was probably a
25 river there or a stream there that was taken and then new forces needed
1 introducing into the area, something like that.
2 Q. One more try, can you just tell me the last word, just the last
3 word, and just say it clearly in your language.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, please, interpreters, we don't need the
6 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, and interpreter could you repeat that for
8 us, in Serbian?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Mostobran." I read that, didn't
10 I? But we don't use the word. We have --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. Okay, "mostobran." What is a "mostobran"?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. All right. Do you recall in the last part of July and early part
15 of August, hundreds of Muslims from Zepa and Srebrenica fleeing across
16 the Drina
17 A. I know that after the fall of Srebrenica most of the Muslim
18 soldiers crossed to Serbia
19 Q. And we have intercepts in this case where General Krstic
20 mentioned you and Popovic going over to Serbia to get those prisoners.
21 Were you involved in that?
22 A. I was.
23 Q. And were you able to get the prisoners?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Why not?
1 A. I don't know the answer to that question. Serbia simply did not
2 wish to deliver them.
3 Q. And how did General Krstic react to that?
4 A. I have no idea. How could I know what his reaction was. They --
5 we were just told that they would be staying where they were and that was
6 the end of it.
7 Q. Were you ever made a commander of a small unit on the 25th of
8 October with Colonel -- Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic as your Chief of Staff
9 in charge of chasing down leftover Muslim groups from Srebrenica?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Let me show you a document, 65 ter 4574. And this is really the
12 last document I've got.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could just show it to the witness, maybe it
14 will help refresh his recollection.
15 Q. Let me give you the hard copy, it's always easier, I think.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Put it on the ELMO, please.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Just take a little time to look at this. There is an actual hard
19 copy, if you think that's easier than having to squint at the computer.
20 And this is no --
21 A. It's easier on the computer.
22 Q. Fair enough. We see from this that we have something described
23 as an order in the name of General Krstic entitled "Searching and Control
24 of the Terrain," and it talks about the latest data suggests that in the
25 territory of Srebrenica enclave and it goes on. I'll leave you alone for
1 a minute so that you can look at it.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: When you are ready, Mr. Kosoric, tell us, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This order, as can be seen, was
4 written but it was never implemented nor was any search carried out. It
5 was just put on paper, but what it says was never carried out nor was the
6 terrain searched. That's as much as I can say.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. So do you remember this order being created?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. And what happened to it?
11 A. It was not implemented for unknown reasons. I don't know what
12 the reasons were. We probably didn't have the forces to do it. We
13 didn't have the strength, because if we had carried it out, I would
14 remember it.
15 Q. But were you consulted on this order as it was being drafted?
16 Surely you weren't put in command over Vujadin Popovic without it being
17 discussed first?
18 A. I am convinced that this was written without any consultations.
19 I see that the order is written, but such a unit was never formed nor was
20 anything done pursuant to this order. I said -- think we should perhaps
21 ask the others, but I am a hundred per cent sure that none of this was
23 Q. That was wasn't my question.
24 A. Please, go ahead. Ask me. Ask me the question again.
25 Q. You said you remember this order; correct?
1 A. Now that I see it, I remember, otherwise I wouldn't remember it.
2 Did you understand what I was saying? This order was never implemented.
3 It's just there, that letter on paper. The unit was not formed. No
4 search was carried out because that is something I would certainly
5 remember because it's indicated here that I was the commander, and there
6 are many orders that were written out that were not implemented because
7 of certain reasons that may have occurred at the level of control and
9 Q. So you never discussed this order with
10 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic?
11 A. If we had implemented it, we would have discussed it. Is it
12 clear what I am saying? It was not implemented, ever, at least I do not
13 remember. Ask him, perhaps he can remember.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Shall we have the break? How much
15 longer do you have?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm finished, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, you're finished.
18 Then just a moment of consultation, please.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a re-examination?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Not yet, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: Two or three minutes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: With your indulgence, we have some questions for
24 the witness, after which we'll be finished. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kosoric --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Josse.
2 MR. JOSSE: About two or three minutes of procedural matters
3 after the witness is finished as well, please.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I am sure there will be no objection. Thank
5 you. We were going to come to you, in any case, on procedural matters.
6 Judge Kwon.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kosoric, there are some parts that are unclear
9 to me in your answers given to the question put by Mr. Zivanovic, Defence
10 counsel for Mr. Popovic.
11 Do you remember that Mr. Zivanovic read to you the parts of
12 Mr. Momir Nikolic's statement referring to the separating able-bodied men
13 from the crowd and killing them later on?
14 A. I remember what he read out to me.
15 JUDGE KWON: And I read out to you your answers to that question:
16 "I've been listening carefully. This sort of thing is never
17 dealt with in this way. No conversation could have occurred outside the
18 hotel. That would have been impossible. All I know is I was ordered
19 something to the effect that we had nothing to do with the Muslim people,
20 the captured soldiers. Rather, I was told that civilian authorities in
21 the Main Staff would be taking charge."
22 What do you mean by the civilian authorities in the Main Staff?
23 A. When I said "civilian authorities and the Main Staff," I meant
24 that everything that was happening in the territory of Srebrenica
25 be taken over by them, and the units who took part in Srebrenica
1 operation would move on to the Zepa enclave, so that the Drina Corps and
2 the Drina
3 JUDGE KWON: So you said "civilian authorities and the Main
4 Staff," not civilian authorities in the Main Staff. Very well then.
5 Next part of your answer was like this:
6 "What this document says is inaccurate. A decision must be taken
7 at a higher level, at a meeting, this is not the sort of decision that is
8 taken outside some hotel. This is hearsay, this is gossip, no more than
10 So I'm interested in the word "gossip." What kind of gossip are
11 you talking about?
12 A. I primarily refer to what Nikolic said, that we were consulting
13 in front of the hotel. In my view, that is absolutely unacceptable. In
14 military life that is not possible. This can just be rumors, chatting,
15 it's not a meeting. It's not -- what happens in front of a hotel is just
16 you go out to have a cigarette when you -- when we left the meeting. So
17 it was not possible for us to make a decision like me, Popovic, or
18 Nikolic. Who are we to make any decisions?
19 JUDGE KWON: Nobody -- Mr. Kosoric, nobody at this courtroom are
20 saying that you made that decision at the time. What gossip, what rumors
21 did you hear at the time?
22 A. We didn't hear any rumors nor was this discussed.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I have -- but let's go into private session,
1 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Can you remove your headphones again,
1 please. Thank you.
2 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
3 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's about the answer
4 given to the question posed by Judge Kwon. It's line 1 to 3, page 10 [as
5 interpreted]. What the witness said is that the rumor was what Momir
6 Nikolic said.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: What you do you mean page 10?
8 MS. FAUVEAU: [In English] Seventy.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And which line?
10 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] Seventy.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but which line?
12 MS. FAUVEAU: [In English] 1 to 3.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, 1 to 3. Okay, I understood better now.
14 MS. FAUVEAU: [Interpretation] What the witness said is that the
15 rumor was about what Momir Nikolic said, and in the transcript, what we
16 should have read is: This is what was rumors. And then he said that --
17 well, he carried on about the cigarettes and what happened in front of
18 the hotel.
19 Could we have clarifications about that because he was talking
20 about rumors in front of the hotel.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Kwon, would you like to go through? I
22 think I can understand as well. To be honest with you, I don't think
23 further questions need to be put. In my mind, it's clear what he means
24 and what he's said. But I've asked Judge Kwon because it was an answer
25 to his question, so if you wish to proceed further with it.
1 Okay. Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sure we can take the audio and get a proper
3 translation. I think that's the problem that we are talking about.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But in any case, it's -- I'm talking
5 about the gist of the answer.
6 JUDGE KWON: Let's leave it then.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
8 Mr. Kosoric --
9 JUDGE KWON: Microphone -- the headphones.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Headphones. We've come to the end of your
11 testimony. You're free to go back to where you come from. On behalf of
12 the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having come over and given
13 testimony; and on behalf of everyone, I wish you a safe journey back
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.
17 Mr. Josse, we are in agreement we can stay a further five
18 minutes, no? I can't see behind the dark glasses. Seven minutes. We
19 need to thrash this in four, five to seven minutes.
20 Mr. Josse.
21 MR. JOSSE: I think I can be very quick here, Your Honour. We
22 are proposing to call evidence on Thursday. We would like the indulgence
23 of the Trial Chamber as follows: We hope that hope that four of the five
24 witnesses we wish to call are going to arrive within the next 24 hours.
25 We would tend to try and call two on Thursday and two on Friday. The
1 other witness can't be here until Monday. Perhaps we could collectively
2 review the position, as far as he's concerned, later in the week, but at
3 the moment, what we are asking is your permission to call two on Thursday
4 and two on Friday.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we need a list of who those are and whatever
8 statements they have --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and exhibits and all of that, if it's going to
11 be that quickly.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and you have to identify which two will come
13 on Wednesday and which two will come on Friday.
14 We know who the other one is.
15 MR. JOSSE: That's completely reasonable, of course,
16 Your Honours, we will do that, and parties to the case will get some form
17 of proofing note when they have been properly proofed, but time is not
18 really so our side, and we will do our best.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we know now, if you know? I mean, surely
21 you've got to know what their order is.
22 MR. JOSSE: We don't know what their order is. I could tell my
23 learned friend who the fifth witness is, the one who can't be here. I
24 will do that immediately after the Court has risen.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we know that, too. We know who the fifth
1 one is, I would imagine?
2 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honours I don't think are aware of that.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. No problem.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed along the lines that --
6 but, please, you have a responsibility to disclose to your colleagues and
7 Mr. McCloskey the order of ...
8 MR. JOSSE: I think Mr. Krgovic, who is responsible for this
9 aspect of the case, will make that decision tomorrow early on.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, you have to make it today not tomorrow. We've
11 had loud protests from this side of the courtroom when there was a delay
12 of even a few hours in disclosing the order of -- this is not in
13 accordance with what the practice that we have adopted in the past.
14 So please, Mr. Krgovic, make your decision and communicate to the
15 Prosecution the name of the first two witnesses you intend to produce.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have a problem. A
17 witness who needs to testify has been removed from a truck in Germany
18 his trip from Turkey
19 witness is awaiting permission from the National Council for Cooperation
20 with the Tribunal because he's in active service. And we're waiting for
21 these documents today, and that is why we are unable to tell you until we
22 meet them. They still haven't arrived in The Hague, and according to the
23 information I have, they are due to arrive this evening about 7.00 p.m.
24 via Prague
25 JUDGE AGIUS: But that doesn't -- shouldn't be an obstacle in
1 identifying who will testify on Thursday. It may be a logistical problem
2 in having them arrive in time, but it shouldn't be an obstacle
3 identifying any of them. And what about the other two?
4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we will provide an order after court --
5 after we've had a consultation sometime this afternoon --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
7 MR. JOSSE: -- based on best plans; that is, everyone being here
8 and everything being in order.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
10 MR. JOSSE: Of course, if there are any changes, we will let my
11 learned friend know. But we will try and stick to what we say this
12 afternoon, if at all possible. We give that guarantee.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Documents? You have a list of
14 documents Mr. McCloskey?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: The list is around -- it's four new ones, 1999,
16 4550, 4568, 4574.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections, Mr. Zivanovic?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: None, thank you.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. These are all the admitted. You had no
20 documents that you made use of. So I think we can adjourn until
21 Thursday. Is it in the morning or the afternoon? Thursday in the
22 afternoon at 2.15 p.m.
23 All right. And my thanks to the staff.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.56 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the
1 2nd day of July, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.