Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33927

 1                           Monday, 6 July 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Popovic not present]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 7             JUDGE AGIUS:  Good morning.  Mr. Registrar, could you call the

 8     case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.  This

10     is case number IT-05-88-T, the Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic et al.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.

12             For the record, accused Popovic is not present this morning.  The

13     Chamber was duly notified about this in the course of last week, and a

14     waiver has been filed with the Registry.  The other accused are present.

15             Prosecution today, it's Mr. McCloskey.  Absentees from the

16     Defence teams, I notice Mr. Nikolic, Mr. Bourgon, Mr. Gosnell, I saw

17     Mr. Davis -- yes, he is here.  Okay.  So that's it.

18             I take it there are no preliminaries, so we can start with your

19     cross-examination, Mr. McCloskey.

20             Good morning to you, sir.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  I hope you had a good weekend.  We are proceeding

23     and concluding with your cross-examination this morning and then you are

24     free to go back home.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 33928

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning

 2     everyone.

 3                           WITNESS:  SASA JOVANOVIC: [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   And my name is Peter McCloskey.  I represent the Prosecution.

 9     First thing, after having a chance to think about what you had said over

10     the weekend, is there anything you want to change from your direct

11     testimony, any mistakes you made or anything you want to change?

12        A.   The only mistake could have been the sentence that General Gvero

13     uttered in conversation with General Mladic to the effect that the two

14     Serb towns had fallen but they were falling, they fell on the 28th, and

15     this sentence was uttered before that; but they had been in a process of

16     being lost for the six preceding months.  So this is the only thing I

17     want to rectify so I'm not misunderstood.

18        Q.   So you do recall saying twice to Mr. Krgovic that those two towns

19     had -- had fallen, past tense, and then Mr. Krgovic tried to remind you

20     and say "falling," and so you've had a chance to think about that and now

21     you want to go with what Mr. Krgovic said.  That's the correct way,

22     "falling," and not "fell."

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Because you know that if General Gvero had said to General Mladic

25     on the 26th of July that that they had fallen, he couldn't have said it

Page 33929

 1     on the 26th, he would have had to said that from Zepa or Han Pijesak area

 2     after they had fallen, so it would have been on or after the 28th.  So

 3     you've now corrected that on the record, I take it?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, let's -- can you tell me, did you have a chance

 6     to look at your flight log, your flight records?  I think we all know

 7     here that pilots and flight engineers are always judged and based on

 8     their flight times, and those logs and those records are essential to be

 9     kept, and that surely you're an active flight officer today as we've

10     learned.  So surely you've had a chance to go over your flight logs

11     before testifying about those important flights of July 1995.

12        A.   I did not go over them for one reason:  The flight log and the

13     flight record of each member of the crew is maintained in a very precise

14     manner in peacetime.  I and many of my colleagues were shabby in

15     maintaining our flight records, simply because it was impossible to enter

16     data after flights every day because flight records were maintained in

17     Banja Luka, and I was dislocated in another part of the country.  We

18     recorded those on -- in notebooks on scraps of paper and then

19     subsequently they would be entered into logbooks.  Almost 30 per cent of

20     my flights have not been recorded because I lost the notes, and I could

21     not reconstruct them from memory.  Before coming here to testify, I have

22     not seen any records.

23             I recall that that period was special because we flew every day.

24     There were no breaks in our flight duty.  We had 10 to 15 days of flying

25     every day without respite.

Page 33930

 1        Q.   Sir, you're aware that the Serbian government is cooperating with

 2     this Tribunal and provides military documents frequently to us and that

 3     we will ask for your flight records.  So you may want to think about

 4     that.  We have seen records in this case of the simplest TAM-110 truck

 5     keeping track of the fuel, let alone flight fuel.  Certainly, sir, you've

 6     had a chance to look at some flight record before coming here.  It's a

 7     serious question, and what you're doing is very serious.

 8        A.   I'm ready, in respect of all the documentation that I hold or my

 9     state holds, to hand them over to you, and I'm sure I can prove that on

10     that date I was at Boksanica.

11        Q.   Okay, how many helicopters, operational helicopters, did the VRS

12     have in July 1995 -- did the Main Staff have, not just the VRS but the

13     Main Staff?

14        A.   At the Main Staff at Crna Rijeka there was only one helicopter,

15     and most of the time during the war there was only one helicopter.  Are

16     you interested in the make or some technical data about it?

17        Q.   Well, I think you told us it was a Gazelle, that's the make;

18     right?  And what year was it manufactured?

19        A.   The helicopter that I flew during that period, he had the

20     military markings 12882, which means the 800 series, and the helicopter

21     that I flew was manufactured immediately before the war.  I saw the

22     documents, but I forgot it.  So the 800 to 900 series were produced

23     towards the end of the 1980s at the Sokar [phoen] factory in Mostar.

24        Q.   And how many other pilots, how many pilots were there that

25     actually could fly that helicopter?  I'm not talking about flight

Page 33931

 1     engineers now, I'm talking about pilots.

 2        A.   At Crna Rijeka you mean?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   At Crna Rijeka, at that time, there were two pilots.

 5        Q.   And what were their names?

 6        A.   Major Dusan Maran, who flew together with me through most of the

 7     war, and his substitute was major and later Lieutenant-General

 8     Trivo Jokanovic.

 9        Q.   And who was with you on the 26th July flight that we've seen?

10        A.   Major Dusan Maran.

11        Q.   And besides yourself, how many other flight engineers were there?

12        A.   At Crna Rijeka, at the Main Staff, none.

13        Q.   And were you trained to be able to fly that helicopter if you'd

14     had to?

15        A.   There is no training in airforce for me to be -- to enable me to

16     fly on my own, but Major Maran had an assistant to train me for -- to

17     able to fly on my own if in case he was hurt, so I was trained

18     unofficially to pilot the aircraft on my own.

19        Q.   And the aircraft can be piloted from the left side of the -- the

20     aircraft if need be; correct?

21        A.   Yes, it has double commands identical on the left-hand side and

22     the right-hand side.  On the right-hand side seats, that's the pilot

23     seat, and on the left-hand side is the flight engineer seat, but the

24     commands are identical.

25        Q.   And how many passengers can be taken if the first two seats are

Page 33932

 1     filled by you and the pilot, how many can fit in the backseat?

 2        A.   Three passengers can sit at the back, a maximum of three

 3     passengers, and there is some room for luggage; but as for passengers,

 4     there could have been three of them.

 5        Q.   And you must have been aware of UN Resolution 781 that was

 6     enacted in 1992?

 7        A.   Yes, I roughly know what it's all about.  I don't know everything

 8     that was written in it, but I remember the gist of it.

 9        Q.   Well, what was the gist of it as would have been known by people

10     that were -- were flying in RS air-space during the war?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, that resolution concerned prohibition

12     of flights over the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, concerning the

13     Republika Srpska Air Force.  I'm not sure whether any other air forces

14     were banned, but we were, and that no-flight zone was respected in terms

15     of combat aircraft.  Fighters and bombers did not fly.  Helicopters did,

16     mainly transporting the wounded, military commanders, and politicians.

17        Q.   Did that no-flight resolution affect the way you -- that plane --

18     excuse me, that helicopter was flown?

19        A.   It affected in terms that we had to be mindful not to be shot

20     down by fighter planes.  We did not know who was in charge of the

21     airspace of BH, but we had to be mindful not to be shot down, and this

22     meant the flight elevation, the route.  Sometimes we would land when we

23     spotted a fighter plane and wait for it to disappear.  Sometimes it

24     resulted in the wounded dying because we had to wait for the fighter

25     planes, and we were transporting such wounding to a hospital for surgery.

Page 33933

 1        Q.   We see you flying at the tree top levels when you were flying

 2     General Mladic, that is because you were concerned about the no-flight

 3     restrictions and being shot down by NATO?

 4        A.   What you saw was unsecurely high.  We used to fly even lower.

 5     But on that flight, we were not afraid of being shot down by NATO, but by

 6     our own anti-aircraft defence, which was stationed around the area of

 7     Zepa.

 8        Q.   Well, you lived in the barracks there at Crna Rijeka; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

10        Q.   And you knew that a Muslim sabotage group had actually gotten

11     pretty close to the barracks in June 1995; correct?

12        A.   Yes, relatively close.

13        Q.   So you knew that those hills around Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka,

14     Zepa, densely wooded mountains, had potential saboteurs, Muslim

15     saboteurs, in them armed with Zolja shoulder fire rockets, automatic

16     weapons; correct?

17        A.   You mentioned the area of Zepa, but we never flew over the area

18     of Zepa.  We flew around Han Pijesak, Crna Rijeka, Borik, up to

19     Boksanica.  We did not fly over Zepa.  There was this possibility of

20     saboteurs opening fire from the woods or different positions, but we had

21     an advantage in that we had mufflers on exhaust pipes of the engine, so

22     you could not hear the helicopter approaching, only when it was flying

23     away.  So they had to be very trained to recognise and hear the

24     helicopter.  We changed routes every day for security reasons.  We knew

25     safe routes to approach Boksanica, and we used them.

Page 33934

 1        Q.   My point is that it was a very dangerous job.  When that

 2     helicopter went up, you were facing a grave threat with a very valuable

 3     machine and cargo, potentially?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Now in July, where you've said already that you remembered the

 6     flights, and you especially remember the 26th of July, in July 1995, were

 7     you and the pilot you've mentioned, sorry, I've forgot his name, what was

 8     his name again, the last name?

 9        A.   Major Dusan Maran.

10        Q.   So were you and Major Maran the only people that flew

11     General Mladic around in July 1995?

12        A.   Yes.  We were the only ones who transported him then.

13        Q.   And who, besides General Mladic, did you transport in July 1995?

14        A.   Well, July is a long month.  Can you narrow it down?  Do you mean

15     the incidents of the 26th of July?

16        Q.   No, I just mean -- you've said you remembered the flights, so I'm

17     sure you've thought about July.  What other Main Staff Generals, if any,

18     did you fly around in July; Tolimir, Gvero, Miletic, Milovanovic?

19        A.   In July, in that period, we flew General Tolimir, General Krstic,

20     some people from the press centre, cameramen, interpreters.  There were

21     only -- even journalists writing for Serb newspapers would come and

22     wanted to report and cover the story, and this is where we came in to fly

23     them.  Generals Gvero and Milovanovic I did not transport.  They did not

24     appear up there.

25        Q.   Now, you must remember when General Mladic and others walked into

Page 33935

 1     Srebrenica on the 11th of July, 1995.  It was all over the Serb

 2     television; correct?

 3        A.   I remember that period.  We did not take part in that action with

 4     our helicopter.

 5        Q.   Well, we have a -- a report of the Bratunac Brigade at

 6     65 ter 237 - I don't want to spend the time to go to it - but it

 7     indicates that General Mladic was in the area of the Bratunac Brigade

 8     on -- on 10 July.  Did you fly him there to that little airfield just

 9     outside Bratunac on 10 July?

10        A.   No, we did not transport him on the 10th of July because the

11     weather conditions around Crna Rijeka and Han Pijesak, that part of

12     Romanija, were not conducive to flying helicopter.  Had the weather

13     conditions been different, we would have, but we did not takeoff because

14     it was not safe even for a short flight, let alone a long flight to

15     Bratunac.

16        Q.   How about on the 11th of July?  General Mladic again is in the

17     Bratunac area on the 11th of July.  We know it was safe for aircraft to

18     fly on the 11th because NATO bombed Srebrenica then.  Did you take him on

19     the 11th?

20        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I could not now explain meteorology, which tells

21     to an ordinary man that in one town you can have ideal conditions, while

22     at the same time, in a nearby town, you can have the conditions that

23     prevent any flying.  The Gazelle helicopter, which was produced in

24     Britain and France, and, therefore, you can check all of its parameters,

25     all of its conditions, it simply is not equipped to fly under very

Page 33936

 1     complex weather conditions.

 2             So in a helicopter, for example, we did not have any de-icing

 3     system, and if you fly into a cloud, you need that.  We also did not have

 4     any equipment for night flights.  So it was very limited in what it could

 5     do, and also our crews were not trained to fly under very complex weather

 6     conditions.  But in the period that you just described, we did have, for

 7     several days, a complex weather conditions.  The so-called QGOs, and this

 8     was true of the region of Crna Rijeka and the region in which we were.  A

 9     flight aircraft which takes off from Italy was fully equipped, and it

10     flew at higher elevations.

11        Q.   Sir, it was a simple question:  Did you take him to the Bratunac

12     area on the 11th?

13        A.   No, we didn't.

14        Q.   We also know that General Mladic was in Belgrade on the 14th and

15     15th meeting with President Milosevic, and I'm sure he didn't drive all

16     the way to Belgrade.  Did you fly him to Belgrade for that -- that

17     meeting?

18        A.   If I can answer without being interrupted, Mr. Prosecutor, I

19     remember that flight to Belgrade.  The general ordered that we had to go

20     to Belgrade urgently for some significant talks.  He didn't tell us who

21     he was going to meet.  The pilot, Major Maran, informed him that the

22     weather conditions were not such as to guarantee a safe flight from

23     Crna Rijeka, but he ordered that we had to take off.  So we prepared a

24     helicopter and we took off.

25             The helicopter, which usually covers 3 kilometres in a minute, we

Page 33937

 1     flew 45 to 50 minutes to cover 3 kilometres.  So we simply -- simply

 2     hovered because the fog was so dense.  We tried to go towards Vlasenica.

 3     We saw the weather conditions would be better there on the mountain slope

 4     of Romanija; however, we had to land in a valley, literally in a brook.

 5     The general was very upset.  He yelled at us saying he was going to be

 6     late for the meeting.  Only then he noticed that we only had our personal

 7     weapons.  I had a revolver, the major had a pistol, and he tried to cross

 8     the woods with Major Maran, to the roads, the main roads between

 9     Vlasenica and Han Pijesak, there they stopped a vehicle which returned

10     them to Han Pijesak, and from there, he took off in a car and went to

11     Belgrade.

12             I stayed by the helicopter for nearly an entire day waiting for

13     the weather conditions to improve as to allow me to takeoff and go to the

14     base in which we were stationed, which were some 3 kilometres away.  In

15     the meantime, the military police security came to secure my position,

16     because at that time, the Muslim forces were also breaking through those

17     particular areas.  And, obviously, Major Maran came back, and he flew off

18     with me.  I believe this was on the 13th or the 14th of July.

19        Q.   Sir, you'll always have the ability to explain any answer, and

20     lawyers - and especially prosecutors - may sometimes interrupt if they

21     think we're not getting at --

22             JUDGE AGIUS:  Let's move, Mr. McCloskey, please.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   What day did you takeoff to try to get Mladic to Belgrade?

25        A.   I believe it was on the 13th or the 14th of July.

Page 33938

 1        Q.   About what time?

 2        A.   In the morning hours, could be around 9.00 or 10.00.

 3        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to the 26th of July.  We saw the -- a

 4     bit of the flight, and you've identified yourself in that helicopter as

 5     the flight engineer as you were going towards the Boksanica site.

 6             Did you watch the whole video, they showed you the whole video?

 7        A.   I'm not sure what "entire video" comprises, but I saw a bit more

 8     than this very moment.  I know that a part of the flight that preceded

 9     that was also filmed, and later on when we arrived at Boksanica, but I'm

10     not sure what the whole video comprises.  But let me just say that I was

11     shown more than what we could see here.

12        Q.   Okay.  And you've said you can't be seen anywhere on the video at

13     Boksanica, and you went into a long explanation that you made a special

14     effort to stay out of the front of the camera; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   Well, if you've seen the video, surely you recall seeing that

17     after Mladic was dropped off at Boksanica, he turned around and waves

18     goodbye and the helicopter flies off.  Are you telling us you stayed

19     behind while that helicopter flew off into this very dangerous space with

20     no engineering officer?  Or did you, maybe, just go get some fuel or put

21     the helicopter in a safer spot or something like that?

22        A.   I wouldn't say that the area of Boksanica was as dangerous to

23     prevent Major Maran from leaving the region on his own.  I stayed behind,

24     I assume, for the following reason:  Because he had to go and get some

25     other passengers, and if there were four passengers, this way he could

Page 33939

 1     fit them all in without flying twice.  It only required five or ten

 2     minutes of flight.  When you are asking about the fuel, we would always

 3     fill-in the reservoir in the evening, at the end of the day, in order for

 4     the helicopter to be able to fly to Banja Luka in the morning with the

 5     full reservoir.  So the only reason why I stayed behind was that he could

 6     go and get more passengers and nothing bad could happen to him on that

 7     occasion.

 8        Q.   Well, you say "I assume," so you don't know.

 9        A.   I can't be sure, as I can't be sure of many other things, but I'm

10     just saying why it would happen for a pilot to fly on his own because

11     this happened on several occasions, and this would have been one of the

12     reasons.  If you had to take four passengers, then it was easier to fly

13     only once instead of flying twice bringing in three persons on one

14     occasion and then additional person on the second occasion.  As you said

15     yourself, this was a dangerous area.

16        Q.   So who did he go to bring back?  It must have been pretty

17     important if they are going to leave a perfectly good flight engineer

18     just hanging around and fly this very expensive machine.  Who did he

19     bring back?

20        A.   I assume it must have been somebody from the Main Staff, or

21     possibly interpreters.  As I said previously, the general came in with a

22     cameramen, so I assume the interpreters had to be brought in from the

23     press centre, possibly somebody else, General Tolimir or somebody else,

24     but it must have been somebody important.

25        Q.   So you don't know?

Page 33940

 1        A.   No, I don't know.  Possibly he went to pick up the general's

 2     escort.

 3        Q.   Is it possible you went with him?  And if you don't really know,

 4     it's certainly possible you went with him and came back later.

 5        A.   No, I stayed behind in the region of Boksanica.

 6        Q.   You clearly remember that, but you don't have a clear memory of

 7     who he brought back.  How is that?

 8        A.   Every day we transported passengers several times between

 9     Boksanica and Crna Rijeka or Boksanica and Han Pijesak.  I can't remember

10     all the passengers, but I do remember that I was left behind because I

11     was left behind on all of these days.  It wasn't the first time it

12     happened.  I would normally be left behind.

13        Q.   It's normal to fly every day to Boksanica and leave the flight

14     engineer and go back into that air-space where there is Muslims, there is

15     your own troops, and there is NATO, no flight engineer, and coming back

16     with very valuable cargo such as General Tolimir with no flight engineer?

17     Come on, sir.

18        A.   As I said, a Gazelle helicopter is a light-transport helicopter.

19     It had no defence weapons, so if anybody was to shoot at us, be it a

20     fighter plane or an infantry man from the woods, we could simply look at

21     them and give them sort of a mean look.  There was nothing we could do

22     about this, and for that reason they did not need a flight engineer.  A

23     pilot was enough to fly the aircraft, and exactly as you said, this was a

24     dangerous zone, and this is why we tried to decrease the number of

25     flights and increase the number of passengers.

Page 33941

 1        Q.   All right.  You mentioned, briefly, on Friday remembering a -- a

 2     meeting with General Smith and General Mladic at the Jela Restaurant, and

 3     we know from this trial that there was a meeting - as we can see from a

 4     UN report at 65 ter 2943 - of a meeting between General Mladic, Tolimir,

 5     and Smith.  And I want to show you a few blurbs on that because, again,

 6     it was caught on video, and I think you will see yourself again on video.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So if we could, again, go to 65 ter 4590, and as

 8     we are doing that, I'll just read back due what you said:

 9        Q.   "Well, it was my personal position in terms of being in

10     photographs and being recorded in any way -- well, I'm simply not in

11     favour of that.  I don't have an inclination.  I don't want to be

12     photographed or filmed, so throughout the war, I always tried to be

13     behind the camera.  I didn't want to have my face, my photograph taken,

14     that's simply not something that I craved.  So from the time we got off

15     the helicopter, I was always behind the cameramen, but I was also close

16     to General Mladic who was moving about the clearing."

17             Emphasis, my own, obviously not yours.  And we'll just start with

18     a few blurbs to see if you can recollect any of this.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   We started off with a brief little meeting where you could see

22     General Mladic and General Smith, do you know if you were ever inside

23     that building seeing any part of that?  I know it wasn't much, so ...

24        A.   No, I did not witness any part of the meeting, so those of us who

25     belonged to the escort were not allowed in, neither those of us who were

Page 33942

 1     members of the crew of Mr. Mladic or Mr. Mladic's security, nor the

 2     security of General Smith.  We all stayed in the parking-lot, and when we

 3     were informed that the meeting was over, then we went to the region of

 4     Boksanica.  So we approached the helicopter.  This helicopter was across

 5     the street from the Jela Motel, maybe some 50 metres from the road.

 6        Q.   So as we look at this still that's there at 00.00.13, does that

 7     look roughly across the field from the Jela that you remember?

 8        A.   What we can now see on the screen?

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   Yes, this is across the road from the Jela Motel, so there was a

11     small parking-lot, the road, and then this field where we landed with our

12     helicopter.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's continue.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   I know your back was to the -- to the cameraman, but was that

17     you, your left side that, you know, we saw immediately preceding -- we'll

18     just go back.  I'm sorry.  Right there, which is 00.00.34.

19        A.   Yes, this is me.  My seat was on the left-hand side.  I was

20     standing by the helicopter, and we were preparing the helicopter for the

21     take off.  I guess that I brought in the general's staff and I was

22     preparing the seat for the general.

23        Q.   And so where is your next destination?  Do you know as you're

24     preparing the seat, do you know where you're going next?  Have you been

25     told yet?

Page 33943

 1        A.   The pilot knew that.  He was told that in front of the motel.  He

 2     was told where we were to go.  Then the general turned and invited

 3     General Smith to go with him on the helicopter.  He said it was easier to

 4     fly on a helicopter than to go by car, but General Smith refused that.

 5     I'm not sure if he joined us later on, but he went -- he was invited to

 6     Boksanica.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And did -- you said part of your duties was navigation.

 8     Did you help get the craft to Boksanica?

 9        A.   Yes, as far as navigation is concerned, but the distance was very

10     small and we knew this recently very well, even without looking at the

11     map.

12        Q.   All right.  Let's continue.  It's not much, I hope, if we've done

13     it right.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   Okay.  We've fast forwarded it now.  Do you recognise where

17     you're approaching to now?

18        A.   Yes, I can recognise this.  On the previous part of the footage,

19     which you fast forwarded so it didn't explain it, we approached the

20     region of Boksanica but we were at the foot of the mountain.  This is

21     where we landed, and the general explained that there was quite a large

22     distance to walk up the hill and that the helicopter would be insecure if

23     left there, if we were going to accompany him, so one of us would have to

24     stay by the helicopter.  And this is why he told the pilot to takeoff

25     again and to try and land higher up on Boksanica.  He supposed that there

Page 33944

 1     would be enough room there, and here on the footage, you could see the

 2     pilot indicating with his hand.  And this is why we moved and landed in

 3     this field near Boksanica.  And in the back there you can see the white

 4     roof of the check-point, UN-manned check-point, so where we landed this

 5     is the space of some 100 to 150 metres, and on the right-hand side of the

 6     helicopter, on this picture that you can see right now, there was a road;

 7     on the left-hand side there was a wood path by these pine trees, and

 8     there is also a monument to an UN soldier that was killed there because

 9     he stepped on a mine.  I believe it was a Ukrainian UN soldier.  So I

10     believe this is the first time that we arrived to Boksanica during the

11     times of negotiations.

12        Q.   Well, that was going to be my question.  Given that you're

13     getting your bearings and figuring out the best place to land, that would

14     indicate this was your first helicopter visit there; correct?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's correct, this was the first time we came there.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's let it go.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   Did you -- were you around General Mladic when he went into the

20     comms tent there and was trying to get ahold of Avdo Palic?

21        A.   I was present.  He wasn't -- he wasn't in a tent, but, rather, in

22     a log house and in a container that was there, so one part of that

23     particular facility was a log cabin and one was this container, and he

24     entered there because the radio station was there through which he got

25     into communication with, I assume, the Muslim forces in Zepa or,

Page 33945

 1     possibly, with Ukrainian unit.  Later on, he did not enter but he stayed

 2     outside.  The tables for negotiations were outside.  And I was by his

 3     side all the time together with Major Maran.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that clarification.  Let's just continue

 5     with some brief segments.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   So can you -- if you remember, can you explain what just

 9     happened?  If you don't remember, that's fine.

10        A.   We went to pick up General Tolimir.  I assume the negotiations

11     were about to start, so the General wanted to be present.

12        Q.   So you and the pilot went back and got General Tolimir?

13        A.   I can't remember whether I came back as well, possibly.  I cannot

14     recall that with certainty.

15        Q.   Well, you know Colonel -- Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric, do you

16     remember him, the fellow with a big mustache?

17        A.   Yes, I remember him, and he was around in those days.  This is

18     the first time I saw him.  I didn't know who he was.  Previously, I saw

19     him in these days, and later on, after the operation, I didn't see him

20     anymore.

21        Q.   Okay.  Let's continue.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And who is the fellah behind General Mladic, if you can tell?

25        A.   That is Major Dusan Maran.

Page 33946

 1        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let's keep going.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   And who is there on the left side of the screen next to

 5     Major Maran and behind General Mladic?

 6        A.   That is one of the persons that were escorting General Mladic.  I

 7     believe his name was Zrnic, and I believe he was from Sarajevo, that is

 8     all I know.  I didn't know him too well.

 9        Q.   The person on the far left of the screen, the person with the

10     dark hair, isn't that you?

11        A.   Yes, that's me, while I had dark hair.

12        Q.   And that's at 00.02.24.  So let's keep going.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   Okay, and here we are again, 00.03.02 and that's you again on the

16     left side of the screen stepping right in front of the camera lens.

17        A.   Yes, these are the rare moments.  I could not flee from the

18     general.  I initially told you that there was a minefield around this

19     place, which we do not know specifically where it was, so I could not

20     roam the wider area.  I kept close to them, and, of course, it was

21     inevitable for me to appear on the screen, especially so because the

22     general may issue, at any moment, a task to me.  And another reason is

23     that only the three of us were there as security detail for the general.

24     It was possible for somebody to open fire from the woods.

25             We were the first time there on that location.  We didn't even

Page 33947

 1     know where the Muslim positions were.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I think we can just finish it up.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   All right.  We are going to be done pretty quick, sir.  There is

 6     one other area I wanted to ask you about, and that is something -- a

 7     statement you said, this was at page 33919, and you said:

 8             "General Gvero came there because he wanted to discuss some

 9     issues with General Mladic because for several days he'd been unable to

10     get in touch with him because the General was avoiding contact with any

11     officers that were not working on Zepa; or, more specifically, the

12     Boksanica thing."

13             So I want to explore with you this issue of whether or not

14     General Gvero was actually working on Zepa prior to this time.  And the

15     first thing I would like to do is go to the exhibit 65 ter 2747.  That's

16     an UN report.  But I'll perhaps remind you of a -- do you remember a

17     meeting between General Mladic and General Gvero and General Smith at the

18     Jela restaurant on 25 July, the day before you were in Boksanica?

19             And let's go to -- well, excuse me now.  Let's just look at

20     paragraph 1 of this report, which is dated 26 July.  And it says:

21             "General Smith met General Mladic at 'restaurant Jela' at

22     Hans-Kram at 1230 hours on 25 July 1995.  The meeting was at our request.

23     Our purpose was to discuss the situation in Zepa and also to follow-up on

24     aspects of the agreement signed between General Smith and General Mladic

25     on 19 July.  General Mladic was accompanied by General Gvero."

Page 33948

 1             And also this document goes on and says that General Mladic

 2     arrived in a helicopter.  So that must have been you that took

 3     General Mladic to that meeting.  So surely you remember General Mladic,

 4     General Gvero, and General Smith meeting about -- at the Jela restaurant,

 5     the day before the material you've been talking about?

 6        A.   I assume that if he arrived there by helicopter to the area of

 7     the Jela restaurant, then it must have been us who transported them.  I

 8     don't know what they discussed.  I cannot tell you with certainty that

 9     General Gvero was there as well.  I knew that General Smith was there

10     because I spoke to his associate standing outside.

11             We could not see what was going on in there.  They may as well

12     have been drinking coffee and tell us later that they had negotiations,

13     but I don't recall what they discussed.  I wasn't privy to that.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, let's go to another exhibit, P00191.

16        Q.   This is that same day, and just to -- July 25.  It's a document

17     sent, as a you'll see, to the Main Staff of the VRS on the 25th of July

18     to General Gvero or General Miletic, and it's from General Tolimir, and

19     it's entitled:  "Agreement on Disarmament of Zepa."

20             I won't go into it details of it since you don't know the

21     details, but clearly you can see from this document it's related to the

22     same subject matter of the Jela restaurant meeting, and it would show

23     that General Gvero was an interested party in Zepa; wouldn't it?

24        A.   This is the first time I see this document.  First, I will have

25     to read it to be able to interpret it.  I cannot confirm something that

Page 33949

 1     I've never seen in my life.  If it was addressed to him or to

 2     General Miletic, well, maybe the reason for that was that they were the

 3     only ones at the moment in the operations room of the Main Staff, all the

 4     other generals being out in the field.  It can be seen from the first

 5     sentence, We send you this to forward to another corps command to the

 6     Sarajevo Romanija Corps, so they are giving them a courier's task.

 7             As for the rest of the document, I can't comment on it because

 8     I've never read it and it would be serious for me to try to do anything

 9     about it.

10        Q.   Fair enough.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's look at P01333.  And this is the English

12     version, but we shouldn't -- we shouldn't broadcast it.  This is an

13     intercepted conversation that was intercepted on 25 July; A is the

14     English, C is the B/C/S.

15        Q.   And the time of this conversation was 0945 hours.  And the

16     previous document had a receipt of 0530 hours.  So a few hours later we

17     have a conversation where, at the end of the conversation --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit number again, please.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  133 A -- sorry, 1333 A; A and C.

20        Q.   And we can see from the end of the intercept that the intercept

21     operators concluded that X was, in fact, Milan Gvero.  And so if we look

22     at this intercept, mid-way down the first page in both languages, we can

23     see that General Gvero, when asked in what condition are they up there?

24             He says:

25             "Good, very good.  They signed the agreement last night related

Page 33950

 1     to the surrender of Zepa."

 2             Then there is some talk, and they go on, and if we look at page

 3     2.  And in the English it's -- there is a little talk about Glamoc, but

 4     we can tell from this that General Gvero is certainly informed of the

 5     agreement, the important agreement, that's gone on in Zepa.

 6             So let me show you another intercept.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's P1334.

 8        Q.   Saying let's not send this out.  A and B.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  No broadcast.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   And this is between General Milan Gvero and a fellah named

12     Subara.  It's on 25 July, a little later now at 0950 hours.  And again, I

13     just want to call your attention to what Subara is concerned about,

14     what's going on in the media on Zepa and Srebrenica.

15             And again, General Gvero talks about, as we can see from the

16     first few lines, that an agreement was signed last night.  We are going

17     to allow everything.  If they are smart, the ICRC will control it and an

18     UNPROFOR representative will also be present.  It talks about some more

19     of the details, I won't go in it, but if this is an accurate intercept,

20     you will agree with me that this shows that General Gvero, despite what

21     you have said, was certainly knowledgeable in the events that were going

22     on in Zepa at the time?

23        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, this is the first time I see those two documents.

24     You read through them so quickly I could not read them.  I cannot agree

25     with you about something that I see for the first time and have not

Page 33951

 1     studied.  Person X could be many other people, not just General Gvero.  I

 2     could have been that person, X.  We all spoke on the phone.  I don't know

 3     which intercepted conversation this was about.

 4             I started to read the letterhead and you started asking questions

 5     about me agreeing with something that I have not had an opportunity to

 6     read.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't have any further questions.

 8             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 9             Mr. Krgovic, is there re-examination?

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  No, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  That brings your testimony to an end

12     here.  On behalf of the Trial Chamber, I wish to thank you for having

13     come over to give evidence at such short notice, and I also wish you, on

14     behalf of everyone, a safe journey back home.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE AGIUS:  Documents?

17                           [Witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE AGIUS:  Mr. Krgovic?

19             MR. JOSSE:  None.

20             JUDGE AGIUS:  Thank you.  Mr. McCloskey?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I offer 1333 A, the intercept, and then the

22     video-clip 4590.

23             JUDGE AGIUS:  Any objections?  We hear none.  They are -- wasn't

24     the first one already admitted or ...

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 33952

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm told it was not.  It may have been, I thought

 2     it was, but I'm told it's not.

 3             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  It's just a vague impression that I had.

 4     All right.  They are so admitted.

 5             That brings to an end your list of witnesses, I take it,

 6     Mr. Krgovic, no?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, just so I don't lose

 8     track, it's A, B, and C so that we get all languages in that intercept.

 9             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay that's how I understood you anyway.  Thank

10     you.

11             You don't have any further witnesses?  I'm addressing the Gvero

12     Defence team.

13             MR. JOSSE:  Sorry, Your Honour, no we don't.

14             JUDGE AGIUS:  Okay.  Thank you.  So we stand adjourned.

15             There is a sitting fixed for Thursday, this Thursday, for the

16     hearing of the Nikolic witness, if he turns up.  Otherwise, we will have

17     other proceedings to be notified later.  Thank you.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.17 a.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

20                           July, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.