1 Thursday, 14 July 2005
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [No accused present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.10 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your Honour.
8 This is the case number, IT-04-74-PT, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko
9 Prlic, Bruno Stojic, Slobodan Praljak, Milovoj Petkovic, Valentin Coric,
10 and Berislav Pusic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 May I have the appearances. Prosecution first.
13 MR. SCOTT: [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If the Prosecution wants to be heard, it must switch
16 on the microphone, Mr. Scott.
17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Kenneth Scott for the Prosecution,
18 together with Josee D'Aoust, Pieter Kruger, Virginia De Abajo-Marques, and
19 our case manager, Denise Gustin.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Scott.
21 For the Defence. Could I -- yes, let's go by the row.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Michael Karnavas for Dr. Prlic, and with me is
25 Ms. Suzana Tomanovic. She's the co-counsel.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
3 MR. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
4 Berislav Zivkovic, attorney-at-law from Zagreb, for the accused Bruno
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivkovic.
7 MR. KOVACIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Bozidar Kovacic as
8 defence counsel for Mr. Slobodan Praljak. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kovacic.
10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
11 Vesna Alaburic, Defence counsel for Milivoj Petkovic.
12 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
13 Tomislav Jonjic, Defence counsel for Valentin Coric.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
16 Good afternoon, learned friends. Appearing for Berislav Pusic, Fahrudin
17 Ibrisimovic, attorney-at-law.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 We have a Status Conference in the case against Mr. Prlic and
20 others. We have prepared an agenda. Are you informed about the agenda?
21 The first item on the agenda is the status of negotiations on the
22 Prosecution's proposed adjudicated and agreed facts.
23 The second issue is pending motions.
24 The third one is the work plan.
25 And four is other issues.
1 Would you like to add anything to the agenda? But you could also
2 include them under "other issues."
3 Then we'll start with the status of the negotiations on the
4 Prosecution's proposed adjudicated and agreed facts.
5 I am informed that at the 65 ter meeting that a time plan was
6 agreed, and I already indicate that the Chamber grants the extension of
7 time requested within the limits of the time plan agreed. The work plan
8 will be distributed soon.
9 Is there anything else you'd like to address in relation to the
10 status of the negotiations of the proposed adjudicated and agreed facts?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour, other than to say that that's
12 absolutely correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: So that we're all in agreement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then the second issue - I'll just go by it one by
16 one - the pending motions, second on the list of the agenda. The two
17 motions that are pending, not only long but already too long, and I
18 apologise for the Chamber that we have not given decisions yet. At the
19 same time, you'll be aware that it's a rather complicated matter and that
20 we would not like to rush through it but to give thorough decisions.
21 These are the preliminary motions on the form of the indictment and the
22 challenge of jurisdiction. Any observations in respect of that, apart
23 from, perhaps, that I hope that you accept the apologies of the Chamber.
24 If there's nothing there, then the next one is the request for
25 variations of conditions of provisional release. There are two motions
1 pending, the Coric fourth request and the -- for variation of the
2 conditions of provisional release filed the 21st of June, and the Stojic
3 request for variation of conditions of provisional release filed the 23rd
4 of June. The Chamber expects to give a decision next week. We -- the
5 Chamber has received the position of the Prosecution in that respect.
6 Any further observations to be made in that respect?
7 Then there are two motions for review of the Deputy Registrar's
8 decision regarding a request for assignment of counsel: One filed on
9 behalf of Mr. Praljak, one filed on behalf of Mr. Petkovic. We have not
10 yet received the response by the Registry, and it is of utmost importance
11 to have a response from the Registry because that sheds light on all the
12 information exchanged between -- between counsel for Mr. Praljak and
13 counsel for Mr. Petkovic. We could not expect any decision to be given
14 before the recess. You'll understand that. I think under the -- although
15 it might not be directly applicable, the Rule that a response should be
16 received within two weeks, the Registry has been informed that if they
17 want to respond - and Chamber very much want the Registry to respond -
18 that the response should be received, I think, by next Thursday. That's
19 the 21st of July.
20 The Chamber is aware of the concerns it raises. At the same
21 time, it's again not a matter which you could just deal with in a few
22 seconds, especially since there are some -- I would say some matters of
23 principle involved as well, especially the issue of whether information
24 asked for by the Registry could cover only the present situation -- well,
25 to say today and not yesterday. That is a matter which needs thorough
2 Is there anything to be raised in this respect? Yes.
3 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I don't know whether it would be
4 appropriate now or put -- or I can raise it under item -- whatever you
6 JUDGE ORIE: If it's about these motions, you may raise the
8 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, it is. Of course.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
10 MR. KOVACIC: We -- we have been told that the -- that the
11 Chamber may decide to invite the accused to the hearing which possibly may
12 be scheduled related to those motions you just mentioned, review of the
13 Registry decision. And --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. KOVACIC: -- if that -- if you will consider that, I would
16 just like to put two or three facts which you, I think, might have -- want
17 to have in mind in that decision.
18 First, in a very similar situation which I faced personally in
19 Kordic/Cerkez trial during the appeal phase, Judge Schomburg in a similar
20 situation also set up a hearing, and despite of the fact that the client
21 was here in Detention Unit, he was not invited.
22 Second, if you decide to call the clients -- the accused to be
23 present, that, of course, would imply relatively a lot of logistical
24 issues and, of course, expenses as well.
25 So if I may suggest, if Your Honour would believe that it would
1 be appropriate to have the client here, perhaps a videolink conference
2 could be also discussed and/or alternatively, if you anyhow decided that
3 you would like to have the clients here on that hearing, then at least, if
4 the circumstances will allow it, to have a hearing scheduled for afternoon
5 sometime, not before 2.00 p.m., so we can organise a flight in a way that
6 they stay here only one night, so we've minimised the whole -- the whole
8 That is our submission, and I think I have also --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I understand also for Mr. Petkovic, I take it?
10 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. Yes. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, not having received yet the response by
12 the Registrar, has not yet considered whether a hearing at all would be
13 needed. There are several options. One of them is to put additional
14 questions to the Registry and to the Defence to receive further
15 information. There are a few issues -- for example, the matter of
16 principle, whether you have to provide information only relevant today or
17 also relevant yesterday is, of course, a matter -- mainly a legal matter,
18 I would say, which would not require the presence of the accused
20 If there would be any specific reason -- because I take it that
21 we'll be -- it will be a lot of paperwork. I take it that we get the
22 results of investigations made and we get copies of the requests for
23 further information, the responses to such requests. I mean, for that
24 reason I think also the presence of the accused would not be required. At
25 the same time, if there are any specific reasons why the presence of
1 Mr. Praljak and Mr. Petkovic would be needed in the view of the Defence,
2 then we'd like to -- to be informed about that so that we can take a
3 decision, if there would be a hearing, whether the presence of the accused
4 would be required. So therefore we'd then like to -- it could be that
5 they could give additional information, but it's hard to say for us at
6 this moment where we have not even received the response by the Registry.
7 Any further matter to be raised in this respect? But I noted
8 that you at least want to consider us seriously to invite the accused. So
9 my first response is: Give us the specific reasons what that should add
10 to what counsel could say. I'm not saying it would not, but we'd like to
11 know exactly. And then, of course, logistics, expenses, and the time of
12 the hearing will be taken into consideration.
14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If I may clarify, Your Honour. My
15 colleague Mr. Kovacic and I did not feel that the presence of our clients
16 was indispensable in order to clarify all the facts pertaining to the
17 decision on financing. My colleague Mr. Kovacic's comment referred mainly
18 to the information we received at today's 65 ter conference that the
19 possibility of our clients being invited to the hearing is not to be
20 excluded. Should this happen, we submit that it might be organised in the
21 way we suggested.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. So you do not take -- you
23 just took into consideration that the Chamber might decide that the
24 presence of the accused would be needed.
25 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise, Your Honour. Yes, that is exactly
1 what you said. If the Chamber decides so, we are here. And by the way,
2 I'm sure that if -- if the Chamber decides to -- to have a hearing, that I
3 am capable, of course, with the -- with the help of my assistant, who is
4 dedicated to the task, I could -- I'm sure I could answer any specific
5 question in -- even in detail.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. KOVACIC: So -- thank you. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So you'd say you're fully informed about any
9 factual --
10 MR. KOVACIC: Absolutely.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- element that might come into play.
12 MR. KOVACIC: Absolutely. Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Kovacic and Ms. Alaburic.
14 Then I'd like to move to the next matter, which is the work plan.
15 The work plan covers at this moment when 65 ter meetings will be held.
16 The next one -- I see the 27th of July. Is that correct, or is that a
17 mistake? I see it here.
18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: I strike out one day and I do understand that on
20 Wednesday, the 7th of September at 3.00 p.m., the next 65 ter meeting will
21 be held.
22 The next Status Conference is scheduled for the 17th of November
23 of this year.
24 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's better to -- to distribute the list as
1 soon as possible. It covers the disclosure of material. It also covers
2 agreement on facts, the number of exhibits and witnesses, and the hours
3 for the examination-in-chief and cross-examination of witnesses. It also
4 deals with the Prosecution's motions to admit witnesses' statements under
5 Rule 92 bis - I know that some progress has been made already in that
6 respect - and when the pre-trial briefs should be filed. No date has been
7 set for that; however, I take it that the Defence and the Prosecution is
8 fully aware that the case is expected and is scheduled to start on from
9 the 1st of December of this year.
10 Then the work plan will be distributed. If there's anything to
11 be submitted in this respect, you have an opportunity to do so now.
12 MR. SCOTT: Just by way of clarification. Your Honour, in the
13 meeting today I believe it was agreed that the parties would next meet
14 with Mr. Harhoff in terms of adjudicated facts on Thursday, the 8th of
15 September at 2.00 in the afternoon, and it may be that it might not make
16 sense to meet both on the 7th for the 65 ter and then on again the next
17 day, although we could certainly combine those into possibly one session.
18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
19 MR. SCOTT: It's not a major point. I'm sure all of us would be
20 happy to be here on both days, but just by way of clarification.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it's scheduled for the 8th.
23 Any further matters in relation to the work plan?
24 If not, I come to the following point on the agenda, and that is
25 other issues. Are there other issues? Of course, one of the usual issues
1 to be discussed, but I'll rather keep that for last, is the health
2 situation of the accused, and there the parties, of course, could -- could
3 apply for private session. But apart from the health of the accused, is
4 there any other issue to be raised at this moment?
5 Mr. Scott.
6 MR. SCOTT: Not for the Prosecution, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: For the Defence?
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have one issue that
9 I wish to raise. I did raise it earlier during the 65 ter meeting, both
10 yesterday and today, and it regards the Rule 45 motion filed by my client
11 back in September last year.
12 Now that we have a trial date, which is coming right upon us, and
13 there's a lot of work to be done, and after being told by the Prosecutor
14 how much -- how many hours they had to put in and resources expended to
15 put together their -- these agreed facts and adjudicated facts, I think it
16 is very clear that the Defence needs adequate resources, at least with
17 respect to Dr. Prlic.
18 So far we've been waiting patiently from the Registrar, but it's
19 coming to a point where I think it's -- it's unbecoming of the UN to
20 expect the Defence counsel to be subsidising the defence of their client.
21 So I would most appreciate it if the Trial Chamber could perhaps apply - I
22 don't want to say pressure - but sort of make some suggestions that they
23 act upon it with all deliberate speed, as it were.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Karnavas, you were speaking on behalf of
1 Mr. Prlic. Would this extend to any of the other accused? We -- I
2 noticed already, I think, that the -- for Mr. Praljak and for Mr. Petkovic
3 that we are -- that there is a decision by the Registrar and that we have
4 to consider that once we've received the response by the Registry.
5 Is there any similar concern valid for Mr. Stojic, Mr. Coric, or
6 Mr. Pusic?
7 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the situation is
8 exactly the same in the case of Mr. Coric.
9 MR. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the same situation
10 obtains in the case of Mr. Stojic, and in fact it is even more serious
11 than in the other cases.
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of
13 Mr. Pusic has received a decision. It has no objections in that respect.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's -- at this moment, the request for
15 review are pending for Mr. Praljak and Mr. Petkovic, also Mr. Prlic,
16 Mr. Coric, and Mr. Stojic. You would like to Chamber to urge the Registry
17 to come up with a decision not only soon but even very soon. I will
18 address the matter -- I'll take up the matter with the Registry.
19 Any other other issue? Yes.
20 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. If I may, Your Honour. Since you raised the
21 issue of the health of the accused and --
22 JUDGE ORIE: But as I said before, I'd first like to deal with
23 any other matters --
24 MR. KOVACIC: Oh, I see.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- apart from the health. But if there is nothing,
1 then it is the right time to raise the issue.
2 I'm looking around. I see no other other matters raised, so then
3 time. Please proceed, Mr. Kovacic.
4 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise for jumping in front but I thought that
5 nobody has anything to add.
6 Well, you mentioned the issue of the health of the accused, and I
7 believe that I ought to inform you that I will next week file a
8 supplemental motion for variation of conditions of provisional release of
9 my client.
10 First of all, I'm grateful and thank the Chamber to -- already to
11 grant my earlier motion where we asked approval for him to move down there
12 in Dalmatia in order -- primarily in order to fix his stomatological
13 problems because he has a brother there who is a dentist, and because of
14 his lacking means, he's trying to do that on most economical way, of
16 In the meantime, this situation is becoming much worse and much
17 more serious than he believed, and he has just visited specialists in
18 Zagreb and it is said that it is quite a serious problem; it will need
19 about at least two months to fix a minimal problem, which is now really,
20 really active.
21 Well, that -- that raises many problems for my client and for
22 myself because of cooperating in Defence. Nevertheless, I will file a
23 motion -- a supplemental motion requesting probably additional time in
24 Makarska but there might be other solutions as well.
25 But what I'm trying to tell here is not only to inform you that
1 we will do so, so not to surprise you tomorrow with a brand new motion,
2 but also that primarily my client decided to finally solve this problem of
3 his health in order to be fit for trial, because there really is a great
4 possibility that when he will be back here in detention the problem may
5 arise and be much more serious and complicated, causing some delays or his
6 not appearing on the trial, et cetera. So we will do our best to fix
7 that, but we are also looking for support from the Chamber if there will
8 be need to do at least part of the work which have to be done, that they
9 are done in Makarska because of economical reasons. I will, of course,
10 explain all that in detail in the submission.
11 Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In order to make it possible for the
13 Prosecution to respond to such a motion, I would very much like attached
14 to the motion, I would say, the work plan from the dentist and a clear
15 description of what exactly has to be done and how, in what stages it can
16 be performed, and for how long the patient then should be present on -- on
17 a more continuous basis; would that be for one week and then one or two
18 weeks off? And so I'd like -- I'd like to receive for the Chamber as full
19 as possible information.
20 We also, then, are in a position, apart from treatment to be
21 provided by a family member dentist -- we're also in a position to assess
22 and ask even advice for that, to assess what consequences it might have at
23 later stages if, for example, half of the treatment would be done, what
24 risks that would result in for the trial, the risk of absence at trial.
25 So therefore we'd like to have as complete as possible medical
1 documentation on the exact problem.
2 MR. KOVACIC: You will have it, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
4 Is there any other health issue to be raised? And as I said
5 before, if you want to apply for private session, I certainly will
6 consider it, because health is a private matter.
7 Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
9 believe we are still in private session?
10 JUDGE ORIE: We are not in. I said you could apply for private
11 session. But perhaps for the dentist, it's -- it's less sensitive than
12 perhaps other problems. I don't know what's still to come. But
13 Mr. Ibrisimovic, if -- if you'd --
14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask that we go into
15 private session, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll go into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 242 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In private session we've heard further details
10 on health problems.
11 Since I just asked you still in private session whether there
12 were any other issues to be raised and the answer was no, this concludes
13 the Status Conference. We'll adjourn sine die.
14 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
15 at 3.44 p.m.