1 Wednesday, 3 May 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please
7 call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case
9 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Can I
11 ask for the appearances, starting with the Prosecution.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours,
13 counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the Prosecution,
14 Daryl Mundis, Ken Scott, Vassily Poryvaev, and our case manager Skye
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me turn to the
17 Defence counsel whom we are familiar with, but, for the record, can you
18 please introduce yourselves.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning Mr. President, Your Honours. Michael
20 Karnavas for Mr. Jadranko Prlic, along with Suzana Tomanovic, co-counsel,
21 and Ana Vlahovic, legal assistant.
22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. My name
23 is Senka Nozica, Defence counsel for Mr. Bruno Stojic; and in the
24 courtroom we have the legal assistant or court manager Valent Slonje.
25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. My name
1 is Bozidar Kovacic for Slobodan Praljak together with co-counsel Mrs. Nika
2 Pinter and case manager Valentina Ivic. Thank you.
3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Vesna
4 Alaburic for Milivoj Petkovic, appearing with case manager Davor Lazic.
5 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I'm
6 Tomislav Jonjic, Defence counsel for Valentin Coric, appointed. Next to
7 me, legal advisor Krystyna Grinberg and case manager Ida Jurkovic.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For
9 the Defence of Mr. Pusic, Roger Sahota, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
10 Mulalic, legal assistant.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today is Wednesday, the 3rd of
12 May. I greet everybody; the accused, the counsel, the Prosecution, and
13 all the people supporting our work. In particular, I greet Madam Witness
14 who is going to continue her testimony, and she is first going to answer
15 the Prosecution's questions.
16 But before I give the floor to you, Mr. Mundis, I have two pieces
17 of information to convey to you. Mr. Mundis, first of all, we received
18 from the Prosecution an additional list of documents under Rule 65 ter.
19 They are numbered from 9.411 to 9.424. I'd like to have the binder. The
20 binder. I want to have a hard copy of those documents.
21 Second thing: After the examination-in-chief, the time will come
22 for cross-examination. As you know, Mr. Praljak had asked for leave to
23 possibly put questions himself. We issued a ruling a few days ago, and we
24 answered his request. We said that when an accused has a specific scope
25 of knowledge or know-how, on the basis of his experience, could possibly
1 put questions. We also said in our decision that further to Rule 85, an
2 accused could also testify as a witness. It is provided for by the Rules.
3 Furthermore, practically, unfortunately, this courtroom is not the best
4 venue for this, but when it is question time, if an accused wants to raise
5 the attention of his counsel on a specific thing, he can do so by
6 scribbling a note, passing it on through a security officer to the counsel
7 in question, because as you know, unfortunately, your clients are far away
8 from you. I don't know who was initially the designer for this courtroom,
9 but they didn't think that an accused might feel the need to speak to his
10 lawyer. What should have been done is sort of having an accused next to
11 his lawyer, as you can see in the States or somewhere else, but not like
12 tens of metres away.
13 I also find it difficult with regard to the legal assistants, the
14 legal officers. I can't see them, and I can't communicate with them.
15 But, well, the architects of courtrooms, they could have asked for
16 expertise, expertise in terms of criminal design, as it were, or criminal
17 court design. So it's difficult for an accused to communicate with his
18 lawyer through little notes.
19 We shall try to adjust to the situation in order to best meet the
20 needs and on the basis of these new conditions.
21 This being said, Mr. Mundis, you now have the floor.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honours, yesterday we
23 ended the day's sitting in private session, and that was done, as Your
24 Honours are well aware, because of the potential for identifying specific
25 victims. I'm going to return to that issue of the identities of the women
1 who were detained with this witness, but perhaps, given the large number
2 of names that she's identified, perhaps we could do that in open session
3 and then only go into private session when we're specifically talking
4 about -- about victims, because there's a large number of names that she
5 has identified and we don't believe that that necessarily needs to be in
6 private session, although when we go to specifics about any of those
7 particular victims and what may or may not have happened to them, we would
8 then ask to move into private session. And so with the leave of the
9 Chamber, I would propose that we go forward in open session. I will be
10 asking the witness some follow-up questions with respect to the witnesses
11 that she identified yesterday in closed session, but before I do that, I
12 want to make sure that I'm not revealing anything that shouldn't have been
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. No problem at all.
15 In the event that a name is mentioned, the name of a potential victim, I
16 would -- I could always give an order to make changes. Thank you. Go
18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
19 WITNESS: SPOMENKA DRLJEVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]
22 Q. So good morning, Ms. Drljevic.
23 A. Good morning. Good morning.
24 Q. Ma'am, you just heard what I just discussed with the Presiding
25 Judge, and I want to make sure you absolutely understand what we're going
1 to do. I'm going to ask you some follow-up questions concerning the women
2 that you talked about yesterday. Do you understand that?
3 A. Yes, I understand that.
4 Q. I don't want you to tell us anything about what happened to any of
5 these people until we're able to go into private session.
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. So that these preliminary questions I'm going to ask you will only
8 go towards the identity and perhaps the ages of the people that we'll be
9 talking about. Do you understand?
10 A. Yes, fine. Yes, I do understand. I'm not quite sure that I won't
11 be repeating a name or perhaps leave a name out.
12 Q. Well, let's start, then, by recapping what you told us yesterday.
13 You told us that you arrived on the 8th of June, 1993 --
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, if I may lodge an objection.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please. What's your
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's not a problem, it's an observation.
18 Mr. Mundis is now about to summarise what we heard yesterday. We
19 certainly don't need the Prosecutor summarising the testimony of a
20 witness. We have the transcript. I think if we could just pose the
21 questions and get to it, it might be a little bit easier. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I understood that the
23 Prosecutor was about to ask again for the list of the names of people who
24 were with the witness. Was that your intention? You were not going to
25 give names for her to confirm them, were you?
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness yesterday
2 identified a number of people, and some of those people she indicated
3 approximate ages. We're proposing to ask her if she can identify and give
4 us the approximate ages of the remaining people that she identified
5 yesterday for whom she didn't give us an approximate age. So I am
6 planning on asking her about each and every one of those women that she
7 identified yesterday for whom she did not specify an approximate age, and
8 I'll then go on and ask her if there's anyone else.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Go ahead.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
11 Q. Ms. Drljevic, yesterday you mentioned Hasiba Grebovic. Do you
12 recall approximately how old she was in June 1993?
13 A. At that time she was about 40 years old.
14 Q. Ms. Drljevic, yesterday afternoon you mentioned the name of Helena
15 Brkic. Do you recall approximately how old Ms. Brkic was in June, 1993?
16 A. Between 18 and 20.
17 Q. Ms. Drljevic, yesterday you mentioned a person by the name of
18 Mrs. Savic. Do you recall approximately how old she was in June, 1993?
19 A. Well, over 70.
20 Q. Yesterday, Ms. Drljevic, you mentioned a person by the name of
21 Sefika Basic. Do you recall approximately the age of Ms. Basic in June,
23 A. Between 50 and 55.
24 Q. Yesterday, Ms. Drljevic, you mentioned someone by the name of Nada
25 Mitric. Do you recall approximately what age Ms. Mitric was in June,
2 A. About 50.
3 Q. Razija Gosto. Do you recall her approximate age in June, 1993?
4 A. Also about 50 years old.
5 Q. What about Mubera Micijevic? Do you recall her approximate age in
6 June, 1993?
7 A. Micijevic. 45, 50.
8 Q. Lejla Micijevic, do you recall her approximate age in June, 1993?
9 A. About 20. About 20.
10 Q. Elvedina or Eca Hodzic. Approximately what age was she in June,
12 A. Her surname is Klinac. Her mother's name is Hodzic. She was 40,
14 Q. Rabija Hadzic. Do you recall her approximate age in June, 1993?
15 A. 45 to 50.
16 Q. Mejra Demirovic. Do you recall her approximate age in June, 1993?
17 A. Also between 45 and 50.
18 Q. Fata Kubic. Do you recall the approximate age of Fata Kubic in
19 June, 1993?
20 A. Also 45, 50.
21 Q. Ms. Drljevic, other than the names of the people we've mentioned
22 this morning and yesterday afternoon, do you recall the names or
23 approximate -- and approximate ages of any of the other people who were
24 detained during the period you were in Heliodrom?
25 A. Yes. In -- or, rather, after the 15th of July, 1993, they brought
1 in a woman named Nena. She was about 70 years old. Her surname was
2 Feriz. And with her, two children, a boy of 4 and a girl of 6. I think
3 their names were Anel and Amela.
4 Then there was Mrs. Mersija Mersa Krzic. She was brought in from
5 Samica. Otherwise, she's from Maglaj. She was about 45 years old; 40 to
7 Yesterday, I think I mentioned Dr. Kreso's mother. She was about
8 50. And I think I mentioned Mrs. Hodzic, Esadina's mother, and she was 80
9 -- well, 75 to 80. Then there was three sisters by the name of Pilav;
10 Jasmina, about 40 years old. I don't know what Zela's real name was. Her
11 nickname was Zela. She was 25 to 30 years old. Then there was Ema. She
12 was between 20 and 25. And a relation of theirs, Elvedina. She was, I
13 think, 17 or 18.
14 Q. Ms. Drljevic, you've mentioned a boy of 4 and a girl of 6, and you
15 indicated you think their names were Anel and Amela. Were these two
16 children the youngest people detained in Heliodrom?
17 A. Yes, they were. As far as I know. But in August or September
18 another woman was brought in, and her name was Advija, and she brought a
19 small girl with her. The girl was 9. And her other daughter, she was
20 about 18, 18 to 20. As well as a son. His name was Narcis, and he was
21 accommodated in the male section, and I think he was 17 years old.
22 Q. These younger people that you've told us about, where in Heliodrom
23 were they kept?
24 A. All the children I mentioned or, rather, the younger people, were
25 in the rooms with us, together with the women, except for Narcis. He was
1 in the male dormitories. But this woman, Nena Feriz, with her
2 grandchildren, she said that she had spent two or three days in the cellar
3 in solitary confinement cells.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Or "Samica" might be a place, interpreter's
5 note. Could the witness clarify?
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Witness, can you clarify your last answer, please, in terms of --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Samica.
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. -- "Samica."
11 A. They were premises in the cellar of the building. Solitary
13 Q. Ms. --
14 A. And they had bars on the windows. I don't know whether you can
15 see them on the photograph that you showed yesterday. Very small windows,
16 about 30 to 40 centimetres high. And that was the only way the light
17 could get into that room. There was a concrete floor with a metal pail
18 for the people to relieve themselves in, and a very thin rubber mattress.
19 Q. Ms. Drljevic, these women and the children that you've told us
20 about this morning, how long were they detained in Heliodrom?
21 A. Nena Feriz and her two children, as I've already said, came after
22 the 15th of July. I know the date, because it's linked to an operation in
23 Kocina, the military operation in Kocina. So they were captured on that
24 particular occasion. When they arrived -- or, rather, when the Red Cross
25 arrived in August, 1993, they were taken away to a house of some kind, and
1 then they were returned. And sometime in October, they were taken away -
2 I learnt this later - to a house in the Rudnik area, which is the northern
3 part of Mostar, and I don't know when they were transferred to Ploce
5 Advija and her daughters, Azra [phoen] and Nina, arrived in
6 September and stayed roughly until -- well, August or September. And they
7 stayed for about two months, and according to what they later said when I
8 left the camp later on, they were put up in a house of some sort at
9 Rudnik, and then they were transferred to the left bank before I was
10 released myself. That is to say, before December, 1993.
11 Narcis stayed on until the 17th -- well, I don't know when Narcis
12 was released. He stayed on, anyway, after them. I don't know whether he
13 was released in that group of civilians in December or whether he remained
14 until March, 1994.
15 Q. Ms. Drljevic, I'd like to ask you now about the conditions that
16 existed in Heliodrom at the time you were detained there. Can you please
17 tell us about the living conditions in the building where you were
18 detained from June until December, 1993.
19 A. As I said yesterday, we were put up in two rooms in the attic
20 area, and there were about 10 to 12 beds in each room. We had a bed with
21 a foam mattress, and when it became cold later on - that was perhaps in
22 October or November; I know that it was snowing on one occasion - we were
23 given something to cover ourselves with, a blanket.
24 We did not have a bathroom. I know that the men downstairs on the
25 first floor, on the ground floor, was where there was a bathroom. On two
1 occasions they took us there to have a bath on the ground floor -- in the
2 ground floor bathroom, and twice to the cellar where there was a kitchen
3 with a large -- large concrete baths where we were able to bathe.
4 At the entrance, that is to say opposite our rooms, there were two
5 smaller rooms. In one of them we saw some tables, to begin with, and a
6 gynaecological examination table. And later on, they allowed two of the
7 women inmates to turn that into a little room for themselves. And in the
8 other room next to the staircase was an improvised makeshift kitchen with
9 a wash basin. So that Novica, who was a Serb, he was one of the detainees
10 but a free man, said that those premises had been built on, or, rather,
11 refurbished in 1992. Otherwise, before that it was just an attic space
12 without these rooms.
13 At the end of the corridor -- or, rather, next to these two little
14 rooms there was one more room where old military uniforms were stored.
15 And next to that there was a toilet. Well, it was just a squatting
16 toilet, in actual fact, just a hole and two places to put your feet on.
17 Some women tried to wash themselves there by throwing water over
18 themselves, but then later on the people who brought in food to us, we
19 were informed that there was -- that when we tried to wash ourselves like
20 that the water would just flow down and go down the walls of the rooms in
21 which the men were sleeping.
22 Anyway, in this makeshift kitchen there was a small electric
23 hotplate and a pan, a big pan, in which we were able to wash and boil our
24 clothes in. There were a lot of us there, and we had just one or two
25 changes of clothing. We would wash -- well, when there was some water
1 there, we'd wash there. When there wasn't any water, they would allow us
2 to bring water up from the ground floor because there was always water on
3 the ground floor. So we did this. We brought it up in bottles, so that
4 we were able to wash ourselves to the waist over that wash basin, and from
5 the waist down, well, we would place one foot in one pail and our other
6 foot in the other pail and do it that way.
7 Q. Ms. Drljevic, if you need to take a short break, I'm sure the
8 Trial Chamber would understand that and we can certainly accommodate you.
9 A. No, I'm fine, thanks. Please don't hold this against me. I will
11 Q. I assure you, ma'am, that no one will hold this against you.
12 Let me ask you about the -- because you mentioned food. Can you
13 tell us a little bit about food and access to drinking water in Heliodrom
14 when you were there.
15 A. We were provided with two meals a day. In the morning we'd
16 usually receive some sort of snack, something to spread on bread,
17 sometimes some milk. But the food I was given was really very poor. It's
18 the metal container that I disliked the most, the container that they put
19 the food in.
20 According to what the people who would bring the food in said,
21 they said that the food that the women were provided with was
22 significantly better than the food that the men were provided with.
23 When I arrived in the camp, the detention conditions were very
24 poor. I was provided with very bad food. I didn't eat well. And someone
25 whom I knew from before and someone whom I spoke to asked me why I had
1 become so weak. But the main problem for me was that container. It
2 looked like a container one would use for dogs. He even offered to bring
3 me some other utensils from his home, some other cutlery and crockery from
4 home. So in any event, the doctor suggested I should be put on a drip in
5 the military clinic on a number of occasions.
6 The women who went to work would sometimes bring in a tin of food
7 of some kind. That would often be tuna fish that had a bad smell. And as
8 I said, I was in a poor state. And even when I was released later on, the
9 food I ate was not much better. But it wasn't possible for me to eat in
10 such conditions. Sometimes they'd give me biscuits or a tin of food,
11 items that had been provided through humanitarian aid organisations. And
12 this was really very exhausting for me, because we would lunch very early
13 and there was no dinner. We would have lunch perhaps around noon.
14 Q. Ms. Drljevic, I'd like to change the focus slightly. I'd like to
15 ask you now about how you and the other women that were detained in
16 Heliodrom were treated. And again, if we need to go into private session,
17 I'm sure the Trial Chamber will permit that.
18 Can you please tell us how you were treated during the course of
19 your detention in Heliodrom from June through December, 1993.
20 A. Initially everyone found the situation a little strange since
21 there were women there. Although I had already seen some women there and
22 even before the conflict broke out on the 9th of May, 1993, a large group
23 of women had been brought in, and they stayed there for two, three, or 10
24 days. They were then released through the intermediary of the
25 international community.
1 The people would often come, and they found this quite strange: I
2 was the only member of the army. I was the only female member of the
3 army. Everyone else there, they were all civilians. They would look at
4 me as if I was some sort of a freak. But initially they didn't treat us
5 badly. Up until the 30th of June, 1993, they spoke to us in a normal way,
6 I could put it like that, although I felt there was some intolerance.
7 I thought of Damir Sipar. I told him that I wanted to go out. I
8 don't know whom he worked for, perhaps the military police. But in
9 January, 1993, or in April, joint patrols was formed and fire was opened
10 on a vehicle. And after this event he carried out an on-site
11 investigation. And when I spoke to him on that occasion, well, it's
12 difficult, you know. When you're in such a situation, you want to hold
13 on to anything you can. Perhaps some would not be bothered by this, but I
14 was really very much affected. His mother had been my teacher, and when I
15 spoke to him I was perhaps trying to find some sort of protection. If
16 someone had asked me whom I would have gone to visit on the right bank, I
17 would have said his mother, but when we spoke to each other, well, he --
18 he said she'd taught a lot of students, and I then regretted having
19 mentioned the fact that she had been my teacher.
20 And on the 30th of June, my commander, Hujdur, was killed. I
21 found out about that on that very same day. They brought in Dr. Kreso's
22 mother on that day. And soldiers would often appear. They wouldn't even
23 enter the room, they'd just look through the bars and ask us whether we
24 regretted the fact that he had been killed.
25 The most unpleasant situation I experienced was in September,
1 after the 21st. I later found out about the date of the operation on
2 Stotina. I didn't even know anything about what had happened at the time.
3 Perhaps I found out something about the event on the following day.
4 After the month of September, a group of soldiers arrived. Among
5 them there was Robi Buhac, who was about 25 years old. He had long, curly
6 hair at the time. He also asked me whether I was sorry that Hujka had
7 been killed. Naturally, I said that, yes, I was sorry. Then he loaded
8 his -- his rifle. It was loaded. Then -- in fact, that's what he did
9 when I told him that he would feel sorry if his commander had been killed.
10 And then another soldier, who also said that his name was Robi and that he
11 was from Vukovar, appeared, and he told him to put the gun down.
12 And then the same month, there were two individuals who were
13 released towards the end of September. That's why I believe that all of
14 this happened in September.
15 One morning a young man called Veki appeared with a Heckler gun.
16 I don't know his first and last name, but his mother is the guard Klemo --
17 Klemo's sister, and his father is a Serb. He treated me very roughly. He
18 threw me into a chair in the corridor. He pointed the Heckler gun at me,
19 and he asked me, "What do you want, Balija?" My -- I believe that two
20 individuals persuaded him to act in this way. I wouldn't want to name
22 That evening -- in the morning he was in camouflage uniform. In
23 the evening, he appeared in a leather jacket. I remember that he had some
24 kind of a sign on the back of the jacket, some sort of colourful sign. It
25 looked like flames.
1 He took me to a room on the floor below, because there were two or
2 three small rooms there. I'd been interrogated in one of them. I know
3 that there was a pharmacy in one of the rooms. We spoke to each other in
4 an unformal way. We would first speak about ordinary things, and then he
5 would suddenly ask me a specific question. He asked me how long I had
6 been in the camp, whether I had had any contact with any of the guards,
7 and this is something that never even crossed my mind. But when I said
8 this was a matter of one's attitude or the thoughts one had, it was only
9 at that point that he really went mad. He became very angry, and he said,
10 "This is because you hate the Croats." I said that had nothing to do with
11 national questions, and I said it was just a matter of the time or,
12 rather, the conditions in which I was living. And this went on for about
13 10 or 15 minutes perhaps. He then took me out of the room.
14 When he tried to open the door, he turn the light off, and he
15 tried to approach me, to touch me. I pushed him away. He told me to put
16 my arms down, to put my hands down, and that I should not forget the fact
17 that I was just a prisoner. He tried to do this once more, perhaps twice.
18 I pushed him away each time he made such an attempt, because this is not
19 something I would do voluntarily. I would do everything I could to avoid
20 being raped, since this is the worst thing that a woman can experience.
21 He then said that he believed I hadn't been with anyone, and he
22 took me back to the room. He said that I shouldn't mention what had
23 happened to anyone. And naturally, I listened to his advice because five
24 minutes later he appeared and took Jasmina Piljar away. A few days later
25 she told me that he had treated her in the same way that he had treated
1 me, and he immediately asked her how I had behaved upon returning to the
3 Q. Ms. Drljevic, if I could interrupt you at this point in time. Can
4 you please tell us if you were aware of any other mistreatment of any of
5 the other detainees that were kept in Heliodrom during the time period you
6 were there?
7 A. I'm not aware of the mistreatment of any of the other detainees,
8 if you mean sexual mistreatment. I know that there was mistreatment
9 elsewhere, but I know this through hearsay.
10 Q. Let me -- let me move on to another subject, ma'am. You told us
11 earlier this morning about a time period when the Red Cross came to
12 Heliodrom. Do you recall approximately when that was?
13 A. I think it was in August, 1993. I don't know the exact date, but
14 I do know that there was a woman whom I saw at the Heliodrom and who
15 arrived in May. I do know that she wasn't registered until August, 1993.
16 Q. Was this occasion in August, 1993, or approximately August, 1993,
17 the only occasion in which Red Cross representatives came to Heliodrom
18 during the time period that you were there?
19 A. No. They came on two or three other occasions but without any
20 success. Because we would recognise their vehicles. We would recognise
21 the vehicles of the Red Cross. We could see them. But it's obvious that
22 they only got as far as the gate, which is where they stopped. And they
23 confirmed this later, and in the Red Cross office on the left bank.
24 On one occasion we also heard a guard saying something because
25 certain things could be heard on the second floor, and the guard said,
1 "Don't let them through the gate."
2 They also came in October or -- I'm not sure whether it was
3 October. In November and in December on two occasions. This visit
4 probably had to do with the release of civilians in December.
5 Q. Ms. Drljevic, after December, 1993, when you were released from
6 Heliodrom, did you have any contact with any representatives of the Red
8 A. Yes, since they had an office on the left bank of the Neretva
9 River, in the eastern part of Mostar.
10 Q. Can you tell us about any contact that you had with them after you
11 were released from Heliodrom.
12 A. Well, it usually had to do with lists, with exchanges, and with
13 searching for those who had gone missing. And in that office and in the
14 corps office I saw next to my name that on all the lists they had compiled
15 for persons they were searching for I saw that by my name it said
16 "abroad." And elsewhere it said Juka had taken them away or it contained
17 a reference to being abroad.
18 Q. Ms. Drljevic, did you ever receive any documentation from the Red
20 A. Yes. When I was registered in May, 1993, on the 25th of May, I
21 received a little booklet with a number, first and last name, and the
22 date. And when I left the camp, I received a certificate that I had asked
23 for in that office, from Zagreb.
24 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like to
25 point out something that's missing in the transcript. It's obviously a
1 translation error. When the witness mentioned Juka took them away, she
2 said it refers to the young men from -- from Vranka, from Vranka. The
3 transcript doesn't convey this correctly, so could this please be
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Ms. Drljevic, you can continue. The last thing that's recorded in
8 the transcript is that you received a certificate that you'd asked for in
9 the office, from Zagreb.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the Registry,
12 I'd ask the witness be shown the document marked as P8774. For the
13 transcript, that's 8774.
14 Q. Mr. Drljevic, can you see the document before you on the screen?
15 A. Yes, I can. Yes.
16 Q. What is --
17 A. It's a certificate which I have in my possession at home. And my
18 father has this kind of certificate as well.
19 Q. Is this the certificate you were just referring to that you
20 received from Zagreb?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Ma'am, do you know or did you have any awareness
23 during the time period that you were in Heliodrom as to who the commander
24 of that location was during the time period that you were there?
25 A. The camp commander -- or it was of the central military
1 investigation prison, and that was Stanko Bozic.
2 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many personnel were working in
3 the Heliodrom building that you were detained in?
4 A. Well, I couldn't give you an exact figure, because the room that
5 we were in, three or four soldiers would come by. So I assume that that
6 was the same for all the rooms. They worked shifts. But I can't tell you
7 the numbers of the police establishment, because the security was supplied
8 by the military police of the HVO, a unit whose commander was Ante
9 Smiljanic. And I don't know how many buildings there were, so I really
10 can't talk about numbers.
11 Q. Ms. Drljevic, you told us earlier that you were released on the
12 17th of December, 1993, and can you tell us approximately how many other
13 people, if any, were released on the same day that you were released?
14 A. There were such people, but I don't know how many. And I'm sure
15 you'll -- you would be able to get those facts from the Exchange
16 Commission and also from the authorities. But at any rate, many people
17 were released. And I was actually surprised when I found that there were
18 so many detainees on that day. But I think that even more people stayed
19 on in the camp, more than those who were released. But as I say, I really
20 can't speak about numbers.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the Registrar,
22 I'd ask that the witness be shown the document marked 6955.
23 Q. Ms. Drljevic, do you see a document before you on the screen?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you see your name on that document?
1 A. Yes. Under number 12.
2 Q. Ma'am, do you recognise any of the other names on this document?
3 A. Well, I recognise them all except, well, number 10, Zulka. That
4 might have been her real name, but she's known as Fata. Or perhaps she
5 has two names; I'm not sure.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I'd
8 ask that the witness be shown P5107, or the document marked -- previously
9 marked as P5107.
10 Q. Ms. Drljevic, do you see a document before you on the screen?
11 A. Yes. Yes. I do.
12 Q. Do you see your name on this document?
13 A. Yes. Number 21.
14 Q. And again, do you recognise any of the other names on this
16 A. Well, I recognise Zulka again. I know her under the name of Fata.
17 And I now see number 20, Ana Vejsil Orhan. And that confirms it. I
18 assumed she was a Muslim that had converted, but I see it all here now.
19 She married -- well, her husband was also incarcerated in a solitary
20 confinement cell whether for having taken out some money or whatever, but
21 his name was Ante. But she did that before she arrived in the camp. Yes,
22 it says 1977. That means that she was 16 at the time.
23 Q. Ms. Drljevic, I just have a few more questions for you this
24 morning. From the attic window of the room you were detained, could you
25 see what was going on outside of the building?
1 A. Yes, partially.
2 Q. Could you at any point in time -- or did you at any point in time
3 see any of the other people that were detained in that building outside of
4 the building?
5 A. Yes. Especially around the 30th of June, the 1st of July, up
6 until the 5th. From the 1st to the 5th of July, actually, both day and
7 night. In front of the building, in the playground, they would line up
8 enormous columns. Hundreds and hundreds of people were lined up there.
9 The buses would arrive. They would come down the Varda in a sort of
10 column almost.
11 Q. Let me -- let me interrupt you there, ma'am. When you say
12 "hundreds and hundreds of people were lined up there," can you tell us if
13 you know who these people were?
14 A. I know now that they were mostly people who were taken prisoner in
15 their apartments in the western part of town or on the streets. Also,
16 from the window we could see when the men from the rooms below were taken
17 outside to air the blankets, and they would cover them with some powder
18 because lice had appeared. They had lice in their hair. So they would
19 use some powder for that.
20 I could often see, in an open truck, people being driven off.
21 Later on they told me, because I happened to recognise some of them and
22 they recognised me, that they were going to do some labour, to do work. I
23 saw that, and it remained in my mind because for a time -- well, I can't
24 say every morning because it would stop for a few days. And then they
25 explained to me that some would stay doing that work for several days.
1 But very often, I would see a cistern truck with a square -- well,
2 there was a sort of silvery grey square type of metal thing at the back.
3 It almost looked like stainless steel, with a red cabin on it. I was very
4 surprised to see this, because the driver was a man who lived in my
5 neighbourhood. His name was Dragan Kozo [as interpreted]. Otherwise, he
6 was in the military police. Kozul is his name. And the other man was his
7 brother Stojan, and he was a cook at the Vranica headquarters.
8 And that particular night -- and he also lived in Vranica. And
9 that particular night, that is to say between the 9th and 10th of May, I
10 would often say to the young guys to go to his flat and ask him to come
11 down to the basement, but quite obviously he had another role to play.
12 I also saw a truck or, rather, I saw it a number of times, but
13 when I said that there was abuse, then I'm mentioning it in that
14 connection. There was -- there were some tulips in different colours
15 painted on a casket, and this was a truck that was used. People would
16 come out slowly, and I noticed that they were stumbling as they were
17 coming down off the truck and that they had their hands behind their
18 backs, so that I assumed that their hands were tied behind their backs.
19 And in front of them there was a soldier. A soldier stood in front of
20 them, and he was shouting. He said, "Don't look at me. Look in front of
21 you." That's what he was shouting to the people. And I recognised the
22 voice of Ante Buhovac. It was dusk, so I didn't see him, but I recognised
23 him by his voice. I couldn't see his face, but I recognised Ante
24 Buhovac's voice.
25 Q. Ms. Drljevic, you'd like to ask you now about your health and the
1 condition -- your medical condition at the time that you were released
2 from Heliodrom. Can you please tell us about that.
3 A. Yesterday during my testimony, I already said that that day, quite
4 suddenly, I started bleeding when I was incarcerated in the MUP. And in
5 -- I went to get help in the outpatients department, the clinic, and
6 Dr. Ertan Kapetanovic was on duty working there, and I knew him from
7 before, and he refused to give me any cotton wool or gauze or anything
8 like that, so that this friend of mine gave me her daughter's nappies.
9 In Ljubuski, when we arrived, all of us, we received a change of
10 underclothes and stockings, socks, and -- well, there was this bleeding
11 that continued for the next fortnight or so. Dr. Suko, whom I didn't know
12 up until then, gave me Ergotil drops, and that stopped the bleeding.
13 When we arrived at Heliodrom, I ate very poorly, just small
14 quantities of food, so that Dr. Hadzic sent me to have a drip, an
15 intravenous drip. And Ante Buhovac would do that a few times. Otherwise,
16 his conduct towards me was very proper up until the time that I signed the
17 piece of paper saying that I would go to the left bank.
18 One evening he took me to the outpatients department, and I saw a
19 tall person there. It was the HVO outpatients department, and it said
20 Pehar on the doctor's coat. This was a surname I recognised as being a
21 surname from Mostar. And I heard him talking to the ambulance driver, I
22 assume it was. So that might have been July, because he said -- he was
23 talking about how in this ambulance at the airport there were no -- not
24 even bandages, let alone anything else. He mentioned, although I didn't
25 know about this at the time, I didn't know what it was, but later on I
1 asked around and got to know what this was about, he mentioned -- I'll
2 paraphrase. He said, "What's this general talking about morale to us for
3 and the successes at Boksevica when they slaughtered us like vermin?"
4 Well, then I became really afraid, and I refused to go and have my
5 intravenous drip administered.
6 The doctor -- well, I concluded on the basis of what I had heard,
7 I concluded that the doctor didn't know that I was actually a detainee
8 there. Perhaps he thought that I was somebody working there or performing
9 some sort of duty at Heliodrom. I'm not sure he realised I was a
11 Dr. Hadzic was wearing a uniform, and over the uniform he wore a
12 white doctor's coat. They said that he belonged to the 9th Battalion -
13 that was the battalion that was put up in Jasenica - and that he was
14 salaried, that he received a salary. But I must say his conduct towards
15 me was very proper, and I even asked him for some sleeping tablets, which
16 he gave me.
17 I don't know what period of time that was, but I found it more and
18 more difficult psychologically to take it all, so that in -- at one point,
19 day, night, I had terrible hallucinations. I lost the use of my limbs. I
20 became rigid for a time, and they said -- they called the doctor.
21 Dr. Stranjak came with two male nurses, Seno and Omer, and I know them, I
22 know them to this day. They live and work in the hospital, unfortunately.
23 Dr. Stranjak was about 45 years old. He was a doctor who was a detainee,
24 a prisoner, and he died of a heart infarction last year.
25 During that period, well, I don't know whether from the tablets
1 that he gave me, the sleeping pills, or because of my very poor
2 psychological state, I imagined -- nobody told me, perhaps I dreamt it.
3 And from this point in time, of course it all seems abnormal. I thought
4 that my mother had died, that my little girl was ill, that my
5 brother-in-law had been killed, and things like that. And under such
6 circumstances, I wrote a letter. The woman that came with the Caritas
7 organisation -- I wrote a letter to my sister to encourage her to
8 persevere, to give her the strength to carry on. And I carried this
9 letter with me all the time in my hand, and I hid it in my bra in case
10 they were to search me.
11 When Caritas came by, I went out into the hallway. The woman put
12 her hands in my pocket, and I just dropped the letter, gave her the
13 letter. Afterwards, she -- well, I just managed to write my friend's
14 telephone number. I have a friend who lives in Rome. They got into
15 contact with her, and they managed to find my parents and my sister, and
16 they transferred them to Italy.
17 Q. Thank you, Ms. Drljevic.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I would propose we
19 take our first recess at this point in time. I believe the
20 examination-in-chief is complete. I just would like an opportunity to
21 review my notes.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you have
23 completed your examination-in-chief, if I understood you properly.
24 MR. MUNDIS: With your leave, Mr. President, I would just like to
25 consult with my colleagues and review my notes. I believe we are
1 completed with the examination-in-chief, but I'd just like the opportunity
2 to discuss that with the rest of my team.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It is now
4 twenty-five past ten. We shall resume at quarter to eleven.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we have resumed our hearing,
8 for the umpteenth time I'm turning towards Mr. Mundis to ask him if he has
9 completed his examination-in-chief.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has indeed
11 completed its examination-in-chief.
12 I would ask for some guidance on when you would like us to tender
13 documents into evidence, whether that would be at this point or whether
14 you would prefer to wait until the complete end of the witness's
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may ask to have them
17 tendered right now, you may wait for the cross-examination to be finished;
18 it's for you to decide. It's for you to assess. You may do it now or you
19 may do it later. It's as you wish.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Then just to avoid any
21 confusion later, we would tender into evidence the following documents
22 that were shown to the witness: 5107, 6955, 8774, those all being numbers
23 from the Prosecution's 65 ter list. And it is the Prosecution's
24 understanding that the capture of the photograph that the witness marked,
25 that is IC0001, is already in evidence, but we would ask that be
1 confirmed. I see Mr. Registrar shaking his head in the affirmative, but
2 those would be the exhibits that we would ask to be admitted through this
3 witness. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the procedure in the
6 future, I think it would be good if the Prosecution, or the side calling a
7 witness, after documents have been presented or after the conclusion of
8 the cross-examination, I think it would be best if the party concerned
9 state which document will be tendered into evidence, which document will
10 be an exhibit, because if a document hasn't been tendered into evidence in
11 the course of the cross-examination, we don't have to interrogate the
12 witness in the course of our cross-examination.
13 So if a document is tendered into evidence, we'll know that it's
14 necessary to cross-examine the witness on the basis of that document. I
15 think this should be done before the cross-examination is conducted. And
16 as soon as one of the sides presents a document to a witness, I think that
17 that side should state whether they intend to tender the document
18 concerned into evidence, and this would facilitate the procedure for
19 everyone. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think Mr. Mundis
21 has met your requirements. He has asked for three documents to be
22 tendered into evidence. Those documents have been shown to the witness;
23 therefore -- therefore, those documents, 5107, 6955, 8774 are thus
24 tendered into evidence.
25 Before moving on to the cross-examination, I would like to state
1 that the Prosecution has dedicated 282 minutes to its
2 examination-in-chief, so overall the Defence has 282 minutes. I'm turning
3 to all of you, and I would like to give you the floor now. Who is going
4 to begin?
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours. I
6 will begin, and I will try to be as brief as possible.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:
8 Q. Good morning, madam. My name is Michael Karnavas. I represent
9 Jadranko Prlic. I would like to begin by asking you some basic
10 information regarding your background. We can get that out of the way and
11 then we'll go into the substance of your testimony.
12 Now, you've indicated to us yesterday and again today that you
13 were a soldier, or in the military; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So at the time, at the time that you were arrested or captured,
16 you were a soldier?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... when you were taken to
19 Ljubuski and then later on to the Heliodrom, you were taken there as a
20 captured soldier; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, before leaving the Vranica building, you had changed your
23 clothes into a civilian; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Not just you but others as well?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if I remember yesterday, there was a gentleman there who I
3 believe you said is deceased now, used to be an architect, that was on a
4 megaphone, informing everybody on the outside that everyone inside were
5 civilians; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the whole purpose for changing --
8 A. No. I apologise. He mentioned this in connection to those he had
9 negotiated with. When you said "everyone," were you referring to us
10 inside or those who were outside?
11 Q. All right. Let me take it -- perhaps I inartfully phrased the
12 question. Inside the Vranica building, which was the headquarters of the
13 HVO -- of the ABiH at the time, there were soldiers in there, including
14 yourself; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Many of them, including yourself, changed your uniforms in order
17 to disguise yourselves as civilians; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Yes, that's correct. But I should point out that in my earlier
21 statements, and I have said this in my testimony here, the main reason for
22 which I changed into civilian clothes is that I started bleeding all of a
23 sudden that morning, and I didn't have what I needed to stop the bleeding
24 or to deal with the situation. But it is a fact that many of the soldiers
25 did put on civilian clothes.
1 Q. In fact, if I remember your testimony yesterday, you were urged to
2 change your clothes in order to disguise yourselves as civilians. So it
3 had nothing to do with the bleeding. In other words, you were urged to do
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. And when the gentleman was --
7 A. Than didn't apply to me, only to the men. Before we forced our
8 way into the other part where the civilians were located.
9 Q. Okay. For the men soldiers it applied. In other words, they were
10 trying to disguise themselves as being innocent civilians as opposed to
11 being armed soldiers there on the west bank, in the heart of Mostar, in
12 the headquarters of the ABiH; correct?
13 A. I don't see how that changes anything. If they were in uniform,
14 they would have probably ended up in some sort of a pit like the other 13
15 young men who perhaps even changed into civilian clothes and then
16 subsequently put uniforms on, because the wife of one of them said that
17 the person shown in the photograph or in the -- in the film didn't have
18 his jump -- it wasn't his jumper, that was just a way of saving their
20 I never concealed the fact that I was an army member, so
21 regardless of whether I was wearing civilian clothes or a uniform, I would
22 always say that I was an army member.
23 Q. So the answer to my question is yes. I mean, just to put it
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now -- and I don't mean to be aggressive, but
2 questions are very, very specific and we can get along very quickly and
3 have you back to Mostar.
4 Now, when you were -- when -- you want to make a statement or you
5 want to ask a question?
6 A. With your leave, I'd like to say that if they changed their
7 clothes it doesn't mean that they wanted to pretend to be innocent
8 civilians. All they were trying to do was to save their lives.
9 Q. All right. Now, you -- when you were -- when you were imprisoned,
10 you were imprisoned as a soldier; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, before coming here today, did you happen to review your
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When was the last time that you read your statements?
16 A. When I made the statements. Well, I can't remember whether the
17 first statement was given in the department for investigating crimes in
18 1998 and 1999. And then there was the other one with the investigator --
19 or given to the investigator. I think that was in the year 2001.
20 Q. And when was the last time that you actually read the statements?
21 Not made them but read them.
22 A. Well, in the course of the proofing, two days ago.
23 Q. Okay. Now -- so you're familiar with what you said back in 1998
24 and what you said -- I believe it was 2001. Let me check the date to be
25 -- 2001. There were several interviews, I take it, back then. 2001 and
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if one were to read these two statements, would they not walk
4 away with the impression that by and large you were treated correctly
5 while you were a prisoner?
6 A. Well, I could say that that is correct given that no one beat me,
7 no one raped me.
8 Q. Okay. So that --
9 A. But given the conditions in the camp and the time, the length of
10 time spent in the camp, I wouldn't say that I was treated correctly. If
11 you take into consideration how this affected me, how I reacted to the
12 situation, well, as I have already said, this is something I told to one
13 of the investigators, after such a difficult experience, I'm glad that I
14 don't feel any hatred. If someone now gave me the possibility of taking
15 my revenge on these people, I mean if I could imprison them, prevent them
16 from eating good food, prevent them from leaving the premises, I know I
17 wouldn't be able to act in such a way. All I know is that those who are
18 guilty or, rather, those who decided to treat people as monkeys and put
19 them behind bars, well, if the people responsible for this attitude aren't
20 the people who actually carried out the orders, those who devised the plan
21 could be held responsible, and I think the Court should be held
22 responsible -- should -- should determine their identity.
23 Smiljanic was a commander, and he --
24 Q. If I could interrupt here and if I could get you to focus on my
25 question, because you had plenty of time on direct examination to tell us
1 all about your experience. So --
2 A. Very well.
3 Q. -- it's fact -- it's a fact, when reading your statements, back in
4 1998 when you were questioned by your own people and then when you were
5 questioned by the Prosecution, you gave the impression that you were
6 treated correctly both in Ljubuski and in -- at the Heliodrom while you
7 were a prisoner as a soldier; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. If you mean physical maltreatment when you used the word
11 "maltreatment." But if someone spends eight months in a camp and no
12 reason is given for this, I don't think it's normal situation.
13 Q. All right. And there's nothing in your statement, either back in
14 1998 or the 2001, where you talk about the psychological impact that you
15 talked to us today. We won't find that in those statements, would we?
16 Other than perhaps you didn't like the food because of the plates that
17 were being used.
18 A. This is something I only found in the documents a while ago, but I
19 found a certificate I was provided with by Dr. Hadzic. It's not dated,
20 and it says that because of my general psychological and physical
21 condition, I should be provided with a little more food, an additional
22 ration of food. This is something I mentioned to the Prosecution.
23 I went to be treated by a doctor who takes care of my mother,
24 because after the film Grbavica I was really under a lot of pressure. I
25 was really very stressed.
1 Q. All right. Well, let's talk about Dr. Hadzic. You did mention in
2 your statement that you were treated by him. In fact, because apparently
3 you weren't eating, that you were given a blood infusion; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. And there's nothing in your statement that there was
6 some sort of a quid pro quo, that you had to take these drips in order to
7 go to be released, or sign some kind of document in order to -- that you
8 had -- to get out. Because I understand in your direct this morning you
9 mentioned something that you were given medical attention but there was a
10 condition. Or am I mistaken?
11 A. I don't understand the question.
12 Q. I must be mistaken. Now -- now -- but in any event, there were no
13 conditions. Dr. Hadzic gave you the blood transfusion, you got extra
14 food, and they were looking after your health to the best that they could
15 under the circumstances?
16 A. Well, first of all, I lost so much weight that I only weighed -- I
17 weighed 20 kilos less than usual, and then I had to be given this
19 Q. Yes. And my question is: Dr. Hadzic gave you the medical
20 attention that you needed? All right.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, there's nothing in your statements, either the one in 1998,
23 when things probably were fresher in your mind, than, say, the 2001, there
24 is nothing in here about Caritas and you giving them a letter. Would that
25 be a fair representation?
1 A. Yes. A while ago I received a tape from the woman, and --
2 Q. Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm asking whether in your statements --
3 My questions are rather specific. In the statements that you gave to your
4 folks back in 1998, and in 2001, there's nothing in those statements about
5 Caritas, is there?
6 A. No, there's nothing about it. But no one informed me about the
7 fact that I could only address matters that are referred to in the
8 statement. I should then have been provided with the statement a lot
9 earlier, not only two days ago.
10 Q. Fair enough. I'm sure the Prosecution will rectify that with
11 other witnesses, but let me just ask you, when you gave your first
12 statement, that was in a friendly environment, was it not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were asked questions?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you were -- they were there to help you. In other words, they
17 wanted you to give them all the information that you possibly had; right?
18 It's a yes or no. Or I'll take a maybe.
19 A. Well, I couldn't really say either yes or no.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. I said what I thought was most important, but my statement could
22 be twice the length that it actually is. It's only now that I'm beginning
23 to remember certain things, because I've always tried to leave this behind
24 me, to forget about it all.
25 Q. All right. But in any event, they did not tell you, "We only have
1 a limited amount of period --" Like we do say in this courtroom, we only
2 have a limited amount of period to question you. They didn't say that to
3 you. You were free to talk as long as you wanted; right?
4 A. Well, yes, but as far as the second statement is concerned, the
5 investigators had a limited amount of time -- or, rather, if -- if it
6 takes three days to -- to make the statement, well, it was difficult for
7 me to -- to carry on after -- after three days. It was too much for me.
8 Q. Okay. Well, we're going to go step-by-step, you know, "korak po
9 korak." I'm sure you've heard that expression. Okay? Step-by-step. So
10 let's stick with the first one: When you were talking to AID, your folks,
11 back in 1998, friendly environment, you were not limited; correct?
12 A. I wasn't limited.
13 Q. And you were given the opportunity to read the statement and then
14 sign it afterwards; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then when you were questioned years later, well, perhaps the
17 events were not quite as fresh in your mind, but nonetheless, you were
18 questioned by the Prosecution, and there, with them, it would appear that
19 you were questioned on several different occasions. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And again, they were pretty friendly folks?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They weren't trying to intimidate you or in any way shorten
24 whatever version you wanted to talk about, whatever topic, whatever issue;
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And of course they probably told you - as I'm sure they did - that
3 if you remembered anything that you had forgotten to tell them, that you
4 could contact them and tell them. Supplement, in other words, anything
5 that you might have forgotten; correct?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. All right. And when you came here to The Hague, you had an
8 opportunity to read these statements again; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it would appear that some of the things that you said here
11 today were not mentioned during the proofing session, during your
12 conversation with the OTP prior to coming here; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Now, let's move on to another --
15 A. Just a minute, please. For example, not yesterday, the day before
16 yesterday, I said to the Prosecution that at one point in time I read
17 about reading a movie, and it was right then at that moment that I
18 remembered that the movie was called Escape from Alcatraz. Throughout all
19 these years - and it's been, what, 13 years - it never occurred to me the
20 name of the film.
21 Q. Right. Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to talk about your
22 background a little bit. You're not a -- you don't have any military
23 training, do you? Any formal military training.
24 A. No.
25 Q. And while you were with the army of BiH, you did not get any
1 training from them either, I take it.
2 A. No.
3 Q. They didn't send you off to some particular course for
4 secretaries, because, as I understand, that's what --
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, initially you got -- you got there, you started working with
9 the Muslim forces before the formation of the army of BiH; correct?
10 A. Officially, the 15th of April is celebrated as the army day, the
11 15th of April, 1992. I arrived about a month later.
12 Now, as for the formulation, whether this was the Territorial
13 Defence from prior to that, whether it was the reserve forces of the BH
14 MUP from the September of 1991, it's hard to say.
15 Q. All right. But what -- I'm talking about before the formation of
16 the ABiH. You were -- as I understand it, you volunteered. You started
17 showing up.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that was -- that was an all-Muslim unit?
20 A. Mostly. For the most part. Since a large number of Serbs left
21 town and a smaller number of them joined sometime in July of 1992. And
22 also some Croats as well. But you also have to know that a large number
23 of Muslims were engaged in the HVO. But let's say that, yes, for the most
24 part they constituted a majority, the Bosniaks. They were the dominant
25 ethnic group in the army units.
1 Q. Okay. And again, we're going to go step-by-step. We're not going
2 to miss any details.
3 Now, at that -- at that time, you just show up and you're
4 volunteering to sort of cook, make coffee, help out, do whatever you can
5 because of the circumstances; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And then at some point you become a secretary.
8 A. Well, it was sometime in August of 1992, roughly. The unit was in
9 the Luka barracks. It was billeted there. And I think that the first
10 title was secretary of the barracks commander, and I remained there until
11 January, February of 1993.
12 Q. All right. And then you were -- then when you left that location,
13 you still remained in that position as secretary?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Secretary of the brigade commander. He was the same person. He
17 was commander of the barracks in South Camp until November of 1992, and
18 then starting in November of 1992 until he was killed, he was commander of
19 the 1st Mostar Brigade. I myself didn't go to the Vranica building all
20 the way up until February of 1993, because there wasn't enough space
21 there. But I went every day to the barracks in South Camp.
22 Q. All right. But the answer again to my question is that you went
23 there as a secretary and nothing more.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when we're talking about your commander, we're talking about
3 -- well, he's get a nickname. Sometimes you refer to him by the
4 nickname, sometimes you refer to him by his actual name. Hujdur. Hujdur,
5 is that how you pronounce it?
6 A. Well, I mostly referred to him as Hujka. That's his nickname.
7 But in order to make it easier for everybody to understand, I also use his
8 official last name, which is Hujdur.
9 Q. Okay. And his commander, as I understand it, was the head of the
10 4th Corps at some point; right? Arif Pasalic.
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. Now, as I -- or correct me if I'm wrong, or help me out here:
13 Would you as a secretary sit in on meetings when they were having
14 discussions regarding operational matters? In other words, would you
15 participate in those meetings?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Well, what about strategic or tactical? Did they consult you or
18 were you part of the discussion group when these commanders were
19 discussing these issues?
20 A. Mostly, no. We would sometimes talk informally. If he wanted to
21 tell me something he believed I should know, or if I asked something, but
22 mostly I never asked anything. There was sufficient problems within the
23 brigade that I had to deal with. My role was not a typical role of a
24 secretary. I was more a go-between between the commander and the soldiers
25 if somebody needed some assistance, if somebody needed to talk to
1 somebody, had housing problems, or somebody was killed or wounded. So it
2 wasn't a typical classical position as it exists in the military and as I
3 later learned the position is. At any rate, I was not a typical secretary
4 who was involved in things. I was definitely not a decision-maker.
5 Q. All right. Nor were you participating in certain discussions.
6 Say, for instance, when they were going to draft an order, you weren't
7 there, part of the discussions as to what should be put in the order, say,
8 for some future activities?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And so if I were to, for instance, show you Arif Pasalic's order
11 of 17 April, 1993, or Hujdur's order of, say, 19 April, 1993, where it
12 would appear, at least, that some activity is being planned by the army of
13 BiH against the HVO, you would not be able to assist us in interpreting
14 these particular orders.
15 A. Maybe I would, since as I described in my statement, later on I
16 had occasion, but I didn't analyse, study these documents.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. Later on, once I left the camp, I wanted to see the order. I
19 asked to see it. So information was available to me.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. But as I said, this was an order that had been read, announced
22 over the radio. Esad Humo, deputy commander who went to negotiate, also
23 spoke about this order.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. Just a minute. When the order was drafted, I didn't see it at
1 that time. It was strictly confidential, as they said. And I know that
2 that evening it was sent via courier. I know that because I spent that
3 night in Vranica. But I didn't see the order at the time back then.
4 Q. All right. Now -- but I just want to make sure that I understand.
5 You did not participate in the drafting of the order or the discussions
6 leading up to the drafting of this particular order; correct?
7 A. Yes. Yes. This order was drafted at the operations headquarters
8 of the brigade. It was under seal, and it was sent via courier.
9 Naturally, later on we discussed it, all of us. I mentioned this
10 yesterday. After the conversation with Mr. Pero Zelenika, Esad Humo said
11 that he had taken a copy of the order out and showed it to him. So he was
12 really angry about him getting that order. So what I knew was that this
13 was a strictly confidential order.
14 Q. And, in fact, you had indicated in one of your statements that
15 after it was read it was supposed to be destroyed; correct?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... didn't see this order?
18 A. Not at the time.
19 Q. Okay. Now, when we say "at the time," did you see the order prior
20 to -- to March -- to May 9th? If it was supposed to be strictly
21 confidential, did you see it?
22 A. I didn't see it then either. I saw it later, when I left the camp
23 and went to the brigade.
24 Q. Okay. When you left the camp. In other words, you saw it after
25 you left the Heliodrom, after you were released? Okay.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And just to be sure, just to save some time, earlier you indicated
3 that you had no military experience and no military training as such, so
4 would it be unkind of me to suggest that perhaps you're not the best
5 possible person to give any meaning or interpretation to these particular
7 A. I think so. It could be said so. I think that there are
8 witnesses who took part in drafting of the order. Unfortunately, none of
9 the signatories are alive, none of the two of them. However, people who
10 did take part in drafting, distribution, sending it out and so on, it is
11 possible that there are people --
12 Q. You're not one of them.
13 A. -- who could say something more and something specific about one
14 order or the other one.
15 Q. But you're not one of those people. I guess that's what I want to
16 nail down. I want to make sure that I'm not foregoing the opportunity,
17 for instance, to -- eliciting information from you regarding what exactly
18 they intended when they talked about attacking HVO. So I want to be fair.
19 A. Let's say that you will find people more competent --
20 Q. Now, does that mean --
21 A. -- who will be able to clarify this for you.
22 Q. Now, in light -- in light of your experience and background, and
23 given your tasks at the time, would that also apply to other matters, such
24 as yesterday you were suggesting that it was the army of BiH that was
25 doing all the fighting while the HVO was moving away and shirking their
1 responsibility, and that was the reason, or one of the reasons, for the
3 A. Yesterday, I corrected that in relation to period of time from the
4 crossing of the Neretva River up until approximately early July when the
5 army members went to the positions in Podvelezje. And the weapons were
6 taken by the HVO units either to the North Camp or somewhere in westerly
7 direction. I know that at that time Commander Hujdur was angry. He spoke
8 about that every time when they went to the positions in Podvelezje, a
9 kilometre would be missing. Somebody with military training who visited
10 these positions would be better placed to tell you about this, not I. As
11 well as the air attack on the 9th of July, 1992.
12 Q. Thank you. So I take it you -- you want to correct yourself a
13 little bit, if I understand you. And I'm not trying to suggest anything,
14 but correct me if I'm wrong: If -- what I'm hearing is you're not
15 competent or qualified to testify about certain matters such as to what
16 extent the HVO was doing the fighting during that period of time when the
17 aggressors - as you call them, the Chetniks - were involved in that area.
18 A. Well, let's say that I'm not sufficiently qualified, but that
19 doesn't mean that I didn't know some things. Some things were known even
20 to civilians who were there and who had nothing to do with the military.
21 I hope that the Prosecution will use this opportunity and find people who
22 are more qualified and competent to testify about the military issues.
23 Q. Let's hope so. Now, you're also not qualified or competent to
24 testify about how much -- the amount of weapons that were coming in in
25 order to assist the Muslims at the time and where those weapons were
1 coming from. You're not the best person for that, are you?
2 A. I'm not.
3 Q. In fact - correct me if I'm wrong, help me out here a little bit -
4 yesterday as I was listening to you it appeared that almost all of your
5 testimony, or at a great deal of it at least, with respect to those areas,
6 the weapons, who was doing the fighting, the conflict, all of that was
7 based on second or third or fourthhand information that you had received.
8 A. Well, let's say that that's correct, but I don't know what you
9 mean by third or fourthhand or fifthhand information.
10 Q. Well, let's start with you personally did not observe it. That's
11 for sure; right?
12 A. No. That's correct.
13 Q. So you would have heard some of this information from the streets
14 or the gossip and innuendo; correct?
15 A. Well, let's say that in the unit where I was, I stayed there the
16 whole day, in the barracks, literally from morning to evening. So the
17 information could have come only from soldiers, and then later on in
18 Vranica, except that I wasn't in Vranica on Sundays. I didn't have much
19 contact with people who were outside of this structure.
20 Q. All right. So you were getting your information from outside;
21 correct? Okay.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So that's why yesterday, quite rightly, you were very clear in
24 saying that these are the things that you heard.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So today, as you're testifying, you cannot -- you cannot assert
2 with any degree of certainty what is fact, actual fact, what is
3 confabulation or fiction, or embellishment, whatever that may -- or
4 whatever else.
5 A. I didn't understand you.
6 Q. Okay. So as you sit here today and you're testifying, since the
7 information you were receiving were from others, you don't know the -- how
8 good the quality of that information was. You don't know whether it was
9 truthful, whether it was partially truthful, whether it was an
10 embellishment, whether it was totally false. You don't know. You cannot
11 tell us today under oath. That's what I'm suggesting. And I'm not trying
12 to be unkind, incidentally, I'm just stating a fact.
13 A. Well, let's say that partially I will agree with you, because I
14 personally didn't see this. One can claim with certainty only something
15 one personally saw, experienced, felt, and I think that this is why I'm
16 here today, to tell you about my personal experience.
17 Q. Right. But your personal experience wasn't that you -- when you
18 were describing, for instance, the tension between the ABiH and the HVO,
19 that it was due in part because the Croat soldiers would not hold the line
20 and it was up to the Muslim soldiers to do the fighting, that was not
21 based on your personal observation. It's a yes or no. There's no in
22 between. You either saw it or you didn't see it.
23 A. I didn't see it, but I couldn't say either that Croatian soldiers
24 didn't fight. One could feel that they were leaving positions, the HVO.
25 I heard about that. I heard that three shifts stayed back.
1 Q. All right. And could you tell us exactly the numbers of the HVO
2 soldiers versus the numbers of the ABiH or, before that, the Independent
3 Mostar Battalion that you were a member of? Could you tell us the
4 relations, you know, in size, that is? Do you actually know? If you
5 don't know, just say you don't know. Please don't guess.
6 A. At the time when Mostar Battalion was established, it had 700
7 members. The HVO definitely was dominant in terms of numbers. However,
8 this is information that can be provided to this Honourable Chamber
9 through official channels.
10 Q. All right. And as I understand from one of your statements, you
11 -- or even here today - yesterday - you had indicated that the HVO was
12 better equipped; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And at some point, as I understand it, you mentioned it yesterday,
15 that there was an agreement on cooperation between the HVO and the army of
16 BiH; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... coordinate their activities;
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Now, before I go on to one other subject, yesterday
22 you mentioned - or it might have been today - that at some -- yesterday,
23 that at some point you had an opportunity to take members of your family,
24 I believe it was your sister's children, to a place called -- if I did --
25 Kastela. Am I pronouncing it right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Something like that. That's that region that's sort of above
3 Split, that overlooks, that has that panoramic view of that wonderful
4 Adriatic coast?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that's in Croatia; right?
7 A. Yes. That's in Croatia, and it has to do with my friends.
8 Q. Right. But --
9 A. We've been friends since the 1970s.
10 Q. My point is, though, in the middle of this -- this conflict or
11 this war, Croatia is allowing you to bring in children which would amount
12 to displaced persons or refugees, however you want to call them, bringing
13 them there for safekeeping. In other words, you weren't stopped at the
14 border and said, "No. Where are your visas? Where are your entry
15 permits? How long are you going to stay?" You were allowed to bring them
16 there to safety in Croatia; correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct. I could have done this years earlier. And
18 I'd been able to do this up until now. My first cousin also got married
19 in Croatia --
20 THE INTERPRETER: My niece, interpreter's correction, also got
21 married there.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I have nothing against
23 Croatia or Croats.
24 MR. KARNAVAS:
25 Q. I never suggested that, and if I have, I apologise. But my point
1 is that during this conflict, during this period, Croatia is allowing you
2 to bring in children to Croatia as a safe harbour; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And --
5 A. But I would like to point out the fact that even if my relatives,
6 my friends are concerned, well, it's still the State of Croatia.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. And in fact, you weren't the only one.
8 Hundreds, indeed thousands from Bosnia went there to find safe haven, to
9 find a place where they could be protected and away from the war; correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct. And those were probably the policies
11 pursued, and that was probably an agreement reached between the Croatian
12 and the Bosnian government. I don't dispute that. What is more, I
13 believe that that was a very positive thing.
14 Q. It was indeed. Now, lastly, before I finish, I want to talk to
15 you briefly about your employment in Ploce. That's where you began your
16 testimony yesterday, and I believe it was December 31, 1991, where you
17 began, where you had indicated that you were fired from your position but
18 you received a dismissal letter three months or so later, end of March,
19 beginning of April of 1992. Do you recall saying that yesterday?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, Ploce, for those of us who might not know, is in Croatia as
22 well, is it not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Small -- small place.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Sort of a port?
2 A. A port.
3 Q. And during that time, all hell was breaking loose in that area,
4 was it not? In other words, there was heavy fighting.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And, of course, it's a ways you have to drive -- I would suspect,
7 if you're living in Mostar, you'd have to drive to Ploce to get there
8 every day, unless you're staying there. But correct me if I'm wrong: It
9 would appear to me from your testimony, and having thought about it a
10 little bit, that maybe you didn't turn up for work for a few months before
11 you got the dismissal letter. Am I wrong in making that assumption?
12 A. Yes, you're wrong. Perhaps I made a mistake yesterday for not
13 going into the details. I worked as a representative of that company in
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So it
15 wasn't necessary for me to go to work every day. We had to reach
16 agreements for producing leather goods. Sometimes we would buy, but we
17 would sell more often than buy. We didn't have a plan as to the amount of
18 goods we should sell, but of course it was in my interest and in the
19 company's interest to sell as much as possible.
20 We were in contact over the phone on a number of occasions. The
21 situation changed. Ploce was shelled. They had less and less work, and
22 it became dangerous to travel around Bosnia and Herzegovina. So as an
23 example, I could mention the fact that a man that I had professional
24 relations with from Veselin Maslesa company in Banja Luka and who had a
25 branch office in Prnjavor appeared at the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 He was an SDS representative, Dragan Djuric. He had a huge beard. And
2 when cooperating with him, especially in 1991 when he made certain
3 comments, I noticed that he was acting in a way that I could not accept,
4 that I did not consider to be normal.
5 Ploce couldn't function as it usually functioned, and similarly, I
6 couldn't sell and travel as I usually did, nor could I cooperate with
7 certain individuals on occasion. I had less work during that period of
8 time, that is true, and let's say that that is why I was dismissed and
9 this had a retroactive effect, and what I said later on has to do with the
10 association in Jelah and with the negotiations between Croatia and
11 Herceg-Bosna government when they tried to solve the problem of the
12 employees who had been dismissed during that period.
13 Q. Okay. And I guess -- I just want to make sure that we're all
14 clear. I want to be fair to Croatia. I want to be fair to Ploce. I want
15 to be fair to you.
16 You're not suggesting here today, at least from the answer I got,
17 that you were dismissed because you were a Muslim?
18 A. Well, according to the information that this association has, most
19 of the people who were dismissed at the time or almost a hundred per cent
20 of them were Muslims or Serbs. I didn't see that decision, but they have
21 a decision made by the Croatian government, according to which all those
22 who don't live in Croatia should be dismissed. I wouldn't say all those
23 who are not Croats. And those negotiations were held in order to provide
24 those people with some form of compensation, because --
25 Q. All right.
1 A. -- people from that association told me that they were somewhat
2 surprised, given my name. They said that they didn't have a single Croat
3 on their lists.
4 Q. Of course you provided that list and that information to the
5 Prosecutor when you met with them, so he could share it with us and the
6 Honourable Members of the --
7 A. Not the list. I don't have the list, but I did provide the
8 information, yes. I don't have -- what's it's called? I don't have the
9 list, but hopefully I should be able to get hold of it at a later date.
10 Q. Now, I just want to get back to your earlier answer now. You
11 indicated that there's a war; right? There's a war going on. I'm just --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You're not able to travel as you used to because of the conditions
15 of the war, so you're obviously not able to function in your capacity.
16 Not because you don't want to but because of the conditions; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Ploce is under attack; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You're also having some problems with some of the employees,
21 including -- and they seem to be Serbs. Right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, but yesterday you indicated that
24 after receiving this dismissal letter, along with the dismissal letter is
25 an offer for you to work as, and I quote what you said yesterday, "as an
1 exclusive representative of the company"; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So it wasn't that they fired you. You got this letter, but then
4 they're saying you can be the exclusive representative of the company;
6 A. Yes. The decision to dismiss me was then nonsensical. If they
7 were offering me the position of a representative, that means I performed
8 my duties correctly. On the other hand, I'd like to remind you of the
9 fact that, according to the laws in force in the former Yugoslavia, there
10 was a probation period that lasted for three months when one first started
11 working for a company, a trial period. I started working in 1981 [as
12 interpreted]. After this trial period had expired, I was employed for an
13 indefinite period of time.
14 Q. I understand all of that.
15 A. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, that was the case. But at
16 the time, it wasn't possible to dismiss someone unless you were in a
17 position to prove in court that you had made a serious mistake. According
18 to my assignment, I didn't have a specific job description. So even if --
19 if would have been impossible to give me -- to -- to dismiss me in 1991
20 because I hadn't performed the duties I was supposed to perform according
21 to my job description.
22 Q. Right. Now, because I want to end fairly soon but I don't want to
23 give up on this point, what I didn't hear from you, what I didn't hear
24 from you is that you actually made an effort to take them up on their
25 offer to make you the exclusive representative of the company and then
1 they said no. In other words, you never made the effort to follow up on
2 the offer; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... there's a translation
5 problem. Let me make sure -- I'll break it down. You never, you never
6 acted up on the offer that was made to you to become an exclusive
7 representative of the company; correct?
8 A. Well, no. Three days later, the war in Mostar broke out. The --
9 Q. I didn't ask you --
10 A. -- fuel tank exploded.
11 Q. I don't mean to interrupt. I'm asking you: Before, you told us
12 it was nonsensical. Now you're telling me -- you're giving me a different
13 story. And I don't mean to be aggressive, but I just want you to be frank
14 and honest with the Court. You were made an offer and you didn't take up
15 that offer. You made absolutely no efforts; correct? It's either a yes
16 or it's a no.
17 A. I didn't take up the offer, but there's a difference between being
18 fully employed and being an exclusive representative. You have full
19 employment, you pay tax, you have social security. If you're an exclusive
20 representative, you don't have any of these benefits, especially not
21 during wartime.
22 Q. There's also a war going on; right? There's also a war going on;
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And the company can't employ everyone the way they used to
1 employ during peacetime; correct?
2 A. Yes, but others remained employed. But let me explain this. In
3 many companies, the employees were not working but they had their
4 security, their social security, paid from 1991 up until the end of the
5 war, and they didn't work during that period.
6 Q. I understand. And that's because they had the waiting list;
7 correct? They were put on the waiting list that goes back to the former
8 Yugoslavia. I don't want to get into technical matters, but when
9 factories were running slow, you would be placed on the waiting list, you
10 would get 80 per cent or 70 per cent of your pay until there was full
11 employment again; correct?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 A. No, sir, you're not right. Those who went to the other armies and
15 then destroyed towns, et cetera, well, they continued to receive social
16 security. I'm talking about Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know what
17 the situation was in Croatia.
18 Q. In any event, where you started yesterday, you wanted to leave the
19 impression with this Tribunal that the country that was hosting the
20 thousands of Muslims during the war, the country that was also providing
21 weapons to the Muslims during the war, was also -- is also the country
22 that fired you as a result of you being a Muslim. Isn't that the
23 impression that you want to give us here today, in spite of all the other
24 explanations that you've given us?
25 A. That's not the impression I wanted to give you. Let's say perhaps
1 I made a mistake because I didn't show the Prosecution all the relevant
2 documents that would support this fact.
3 Q. Very well. And perhaps it was just an irrelevant matter that
4 didn't need to be raised to begin with but just took up a lot of our time.
5 A. I don't know whether I may do this according to the rules of the
6 Tribunal, but I could provide you with the documents that will support my
7 claim later on. I'm referring to this dismissal and the decision taken by
8 the Croatian government. I haven't seen these documents, that's true, but
9 I've been told that they do exist, and I think that there is a team of
10 lawyers in Croatia who represent this group of people, and I think there
11 are 10.000 of them who are registered at the moment. But it is believed
12 that from 1991 to 1994 and 1995, well, between 60 and 100.000 employees
13 were dismissed. And this is a problem that's being much discussed right
14 now. And in my prior statements given to the Prosecution, I didn't
15 mention the fact.
16 I found out about this decision and the activities of the Bosnian
17 and Croatian government only about two years ago.
18 Q. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. First I want to apologise if I in
19 any way offended you. Secondly, I want to thank you on behalf of
20 Dr. Jadranko Prlic for answering our questions. Thank you very much.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President and Your Honours, I have no further
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We still have ten
24 minutes left before having our lunch break. I shall give the floor to the
25 other lawyers, other Defence counsel, but I would like to ask them not to
1 ask the same questions again, please.
2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I won't put
3 the same questions to the witness. I'll attempt to be very brief, but I
4 fear that ten minutes won't be sufficient for me, so when you believe that
5 the time for the break has come, please tell me.
6 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Ms. Drljevic. My name is Senka Nozica.
8 I know -- I represent Mr. Bruno Stojic. I have a few questions for you.
9 Yesterday, in response to a question from the Prosecution, you
10 described the Vranica building and the number of entrances that could be
11 used for members of your brigade to enter the building, and there's
12 something that I'm not quite clear about. Were any parts of the building
13 also used by the 4th Corps as well as your brigade, or is it just one area
14 you're talking about? Because you mentioned an entrance used by the 4th
15 Corps and an entrance used by the 1st Mostar Brigade. So what I want to
16 know is whether you're referring to one area.
17 A. Yes, it is one area, but there was a sort of partition wall
18 dividing the area in that office. Yes, it is one area, but there were two
19 entrances. One room but two entrances.
20 Q. When you say "two entrances" -- well, you said there was an
21 entrance used by the 4th Corps, and you said, "We used some other entrance
22 at the other side." Was this other entrance at the other side?
23 A. No, on the same side of the building but in the direction of the
24 Stjepan Radic Street.
25 Q. Could you tell me what the area in the Kluz part meant for you or
1 for the 1st Mostar Brigade. You mentioned your logistics centre there.
2 A. Yes. That's where the logistics command was located. The
3 entrance was from Stejpan Radic Street, but there was an entrance through
4 the tunnel below the building. There are two pillars, and then there's
5 the tunnel, and then you have two columns positioned in this way. On the
6 western side there is one entrance, and on the southern side from the
7 Stejpan Radic Street there was also an entrance into the Kluz building.
8 Q. You said that this was in fact where the logistics command was.
9 Was there some sort of a warehouse there in which perhaps weapons were
11 A. Yes. But I don't think there was enough room there. So not a lot
12 of weapons could be kept there. But I've never been in that room, so I
13 really couldn't say what was kept inside.
14 Q. Please, could you tell me, on the 9th of May, 1993, did members of
15 your 1st Mostar Brigade, or Corps, go to that warehouse in the course of
16 the day to collect weapons; and how frequently did they do so, if you can
18 A. In the course of the night?
19 Q. Yes, in the course of the night.
20 A. On two occasions they took one case. Since the MUP building is
21 there, it's parallel to that building, so someone from the MUP building
22 noticed them and opened fire. One of the young men's rifles was hidden.
23 It was no longer possible to have access there.
24 Q. So they went there twice during the course of the night and the
25 third time they weren't successful in doing so?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned Mrs. Mirzet Rizvanovic, who was with you
3 in the prison in Ljubuski.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Please, can you tell me whether she was a member of the army of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
7 A. Yes, she was. She worked in the finance department in the corps
8 logistics section.
9 Q. Could you please tell me, you mentioned two individuals. You
10 mentioned her and Mrs. Mirna. You said that they had left before you had
11 all been registered by the International Red Cross. Could you tell me for
12 how long Mirzeta Rizvanovic stayed there?
13 A. For about ten days perhaps.
14 Q. You said something very strange about her. You used a verb which
15 I found strange. You said she withdrew or got out. She got her secretary
16 out. I know what this word means, but how did she get out? What did you
17 mean when you used that word? And I'm being warned to speak a little more
18 slowly for the sake of the translation. I'll do that. How did she get
19 out? Can you remember the circumstances under which she got out?
20 A. Mirna Picuka was the first one to get out, to leave. Her mother
21 was a Croat, and her father a professor at the university. And someone
22 came to collect her. It was Mladen Misic's secretary. She had red hair
23 and was in uniform. That's what they said her name was, in any event, and
24 she was between 45 and 50 years old.
25 On that day or on the following day, that's when she came. I
1 didn't see documents of any kind. I believe there may have been a
2 document permitting Mirzeta Rizvanovic to be released from the prison. I
3 know that there was a woman called Jagoda who was a Croat from Stolac.
4 The fact that she was a Croat was obviously important. She was from
5 Stolac, and she took her to her home.
6 Q. I just want to confirm what you just said. Could we say that some
7 individuals got them out but no official procedure was followed?
8 A. Yes, you could put it that way.
9 Q. Thank you. Today, you said that you received a change of clothes
10 in the prison in -- in Ljubusko, and you got a new pair of socks. Who
11 made this possible? Do you remember?
12 A. It wasn't that evening. We spent that evening in that room. When
13 we woke up in the morning, Ante Prlic brought us these items.
14 Q. For the sake of the transcript, could we just repeat who he was in
15 the prison.
16 A. I don't know what his position was. I don't know whether he was
17 the commander of the prison or the commander of the military police that
18 provided security for the prison.
19 Q. That's what you said yesterday. With regard to that stay there,
20 did Mr. Prlic make it possible for you to go somewhere and have a shower,
21 to wash yourself?
22 A. Yes. When he brought us that change of clothes, he took us -- he
23 took Mirzet and myself to see Jagoda, into the place where Jagoda was. As
24 for the other three girls, they were taken to a woman who used to work as
25 a cleaning lady. And I knew her aunt. Her name was Nada, and she used to
1 work in a shop in Mostar.
2 Q. You were taken there to take a shower; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can we generally say that his attitude towards you in prison in
5 Ljubuski was a proper one?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In view of your yesterday's testimony, can we say that the
8 attitude, the conduct of others who worked in that prison, their attitude
9 toward you was also correct?
10 A. Yes. Let me give you a detail. I don't know the name of this
11 young man. He was tall and blonde. On the day I was released, he came
12 there, and he was there at Heliodrom, and he said good-bye to me
14 Q. All right.
15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask Your Honours
16 to go into private session for some five minutes, because I would like to
17 put some questions pertaining to personal details of some other inmates.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 1130-1131 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are currently in open session,
4 Your Honour.
5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you please tell me, while you were in the investigative prison
7 in Heliodrom, central investigative prison, do you remember sending a
8 letter to anyone else in late October, 1993, perhaps? I'm just asking
9 whether you remember sending any letter to anyone; and if so, then to
11 A. I remember this: I remember writing to Mr. Bozic after this
12 episode with my back. I asked to be enabled to have contact with my
13 father. But let me tell you this: Two days ago, when the Prosecutor
14 showed me that letter, it was only then that I remembered the other two
15 letters I sent to Bozic and Pusic.
16 Q. In addition to sending letters to Mr. Bozic and Mr. Pusic, did
17 you write to anyone else? I'm now directing your memory and telling you
18 that could have been in October, 1993. Do you remember anything like
20 A. Yes. In addition to that -- or, rather, I wasn't a smoker. We
21 had no communication. I didn't go out, or that is to say I went very
22 seldom outside of the building and, say, into the basement. I went out
23 maybe only two or three times. I wrote a letter, putting down names of
24 men whom I thought to be on the ground floor. I thought that they were on
25 the ground floor. I wrote to them, saying that I was sad that the
1 commander had been killed, that my mother had died, and that I wanted them
2 to send me cigarettes.
3 Q. Was any of those persons called Jelin, perhaps?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Let me ask you directly: Did you write a letter to someone called
6 Jelin, a gentleman under that name?
7 A. No. I don't remember.
8 Q. And finally, as for your employment, Mr. Karnavas cross-examined
9 you thoroughly, but I would like to ask you this: Would you agree with me
10 that your statement, the statement you uttered about almost all of those
11 who were fired during wartime in Bosnia and Herzegovina had no
12 interruption in their service years. Let me ask you this: Do you know
13 that even now in Mostar and in all parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the
14 federation, and also in Sarajevo, very frequently there are many cases
15 brought in court by people who were fired in 1993 under the same or
16 similar circumstances as you who had an interruption in their service
17 years, and they were dismissed because they missed the war areas or,
18 rather, their places of residence and their places of work? Are you
19 familiar with that fact?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you, kindly. I have no further questions. Thank you for
22 your proper attitude and your proper answers. I'm thanking you on my
23 behalf and on behalf of my client. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is now twenty-five minutes
25 past twelve. Due to the fact that the witness must get something to eat,
1 and the lawyers are definitely entitled to have a rest, and we shall
2 resume again at 1.25.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.28 p.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is
6 resumed. Mr. Kovacic, you have the floor.
7 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. By your leave, Your
8 Honours, before I turn to the witness I just have a comment to make.
9 Several times in the course of the evidence both the witness and the
10 Prosecution used such terms as "Bosnian government," "Bosnian state." I
11 would like to say this: In view of various changes that occurred with
12 that entity over the years, I suggest it would be good to use consistent
13 terminology in this courtroom; namely, to state "the state of Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina" or "the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina." Through the
15 documents we started using a standard, referring to that country as BH,
16 meaning BH state, BH government, and so on. So I think we need to be
17 consistent here as well. It's a formal issue. There is a state called
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is not known as Bosnian state, Bosnian
19 government, or anything else.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is noted in
21 terms of the legal significance of the terms. When the Prosecution
22 mentions the government, it should say "the government of Bosnia and
24 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Ms. Drljevic. I'm Defence
2 counsel for the third accused, Mr. Slobodan Praljak. I'm representing him
3 here with my team. Since questions were put to you earlier by my
4 colleagues, I won't take much time.
5 You heard today that we, the Defence counsel, have a certain
6 amount of time allotted to us, and I would like to ask you, as much as
7 possible, to give yes or no answers to my questions. I will try to be as
8 direct as possible. And if you want to give any additional explanations,
9 give us some kind of a sign and then that can be clarified in re-direct
10 with the Prosecution.
11 I would like to clarify now something in relation to your
12 employment with this company in Ploce, which as I think you said was
13 called Kartonplastika.
14 A. Yes, Kartonplastika.
15 Q. On page 8, line 21, you are recorded as saying that you believe
16 that the dismissal that you received was, in fact, unlawful.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Ms. Drljevic, the headquarters of that company, Kartonplastika,
19 was located in Ploce.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Ploce is located in the Republic of Croatia.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let me remind you, at the time you're referring to in late 1991,
24 Croatia was already an independent state for half a year, was no longer a
25 part of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Do you agree with
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you lived in a country which was called Bosnia and Herzegovina,
4 and your employer had its headquarters in an independent state which was
5 no longer part of the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia but
6 was, rather, a part of a new state; Croatia.
7 A. Well, in 1991, Bosnia and Herzegovina did not exist as a state.
8 Q. Madam, Croatia has existed as an independent state since June of
9 1991. It seems that we have a misunderstanding here. You seem to imply
10 that Bosnia was not independent yet.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So Bosnia was not independent yet. That's what you're trying to
13 say. But your company was based in Croatia, and Croatia was independent
14 at that time. It wasn't part of Yugoslavia any longer. Correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So Yugoslav labour law was no longer applied in that country. Did
17 you take that into account when giving this qualification? You gave it to
19 A. No, I didn't, but that wasn't stated in my dismissal letter. In
20 the previous six months, they should have then signed a new contract with
21 me, a new labour contract if the country had indeed changed.
22 Q. Yes. It was up to the employer.
23 A. And it wasn't up to me to know these things.
24 Q. Well, you're presuming that or, rather, the presumption is that
25 everybody has to be familiar with the laws that pertain to that. If you
1 were an employee of that company in Ploce -- but let's leave that aside.
2 What's important is that the law of the sovereign independent state of
3 Croat was applied to your labour contract at that time. Do you agree with
5 A. Not entirely.
6 Q. What do you disagree with?
7 A. If I was employed according to one system of laws, then once that
8 system was changed, I should have been informed that now my employment
9 contract was subject to the laws of another state.
10 Q. That's your opinion; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you a qualified lawyer?
13 A. I'm not.
14 Q. Did you consult any qualified lawyers at the time?
15 A. No, not at the time.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. However, we submitted all of the pertinent documentation to a team
18 of lawyers in Zagreb who believe that they have a case, that our
19 complaints are legitimate, and also our claims. And there are
20 consultations going on, both with the Croatian government and that of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 Q. All right. So is that case in progress or is it being prepared
23 for trial?
24 A. It is being currently prepared.
25 Q. So there is no judgement yet?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You mentioned an association here. You said that it numbers
3 100.000 members. All of these people were left without their jobs in
4 various parts of the former Yugoslavia. Now, this association which deals
5 with Croatian former employees, do you think that this association is
6 mostly focused on the reasons for termination of employment? Is that your
8 A. We think that there are hundred thousand members in this
9 association. This is an association that for the time being has 10.000
10 registered members, and this is data that we received three months ago.
11 The association is called Association for Protection of Dismissed Workers
12 in the Republic of Croatia. So it deals exclusively with employees who
13 used to work for companies from the Republic of Croatia.
14 If allowed, I will try to supply to the Prosecution the decision
15 on my dismissal as well as the list of persons who are currently members
16 of that association.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. You said yourself that in relation to that
18 association and its activities, there was a lot of write -- a lot of it
19 was written about in the press recently.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Based on press reports, it is clear that the essential question
22 raised by that association is the right to shares that employees might be
23 entitled to, and these companies have, in the meantime, gone to a
24 restructuring process.
25 A. Yes. Shares which the workers are entitled to based on the
1 privatisation process, the privatisation that was conducted in the
2 meantime, as well as their entitlement to 24 salaries that the company
3 must pay out to employees who were fired or dismissed under certain
5 I don't know how the lawyers are going to put this claim forth.
6 Probably it will be based on the decision of the government.
7 In addition to this, I think that there are other claims, claims
8 for compensation which was not paid out to these employees who worked for
9 Croatian companies abroad. For example, in Iraq, in Libya.
10 Q. Yes. Correct. So there are a lot of issues raised.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. A lot of legal issues, I would say.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And one of the dominant issues is who is supposed to benefit from
15 this change that the companies have gone through, because this is no
16 longer a socialist system but a system that has been transformed in the
17 meantime. That's the key issue.
18 A. I wouldn't comment upon that. I don't think that that's the sole
19 issue. At the time, I joined the army without giving it much thought, so
20 I did enter into employment after that. However, there are many people
21 who were left in the street without any right to unemployment benefits.
22 They have no social security or medical insurance. So there are a number
23 of people who have certain claims based on their employment abroad with
24 these companies.
25 Q. All right. Thank you, Ms. Drljevic. It stems implicitly from
1 your replies - and you can confirm this - that for months you were unable
2 to go to your company in Ploce. Previously, you had to go there.
3 A. I didn't have to go to Ploce for my work.
4 Q. Very well. You also confirmed that you did not accept an offer to
5 start working as an exclusive representative, and you explained your
6 reasons for that.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. It wasn't quite clear to me. Based on what you said, it seems
9 that you were not prepared to accept the risk of making enough money
10 through your work, because you would be paid exclusively based on sales
11 results, meaning that if you concluded a contract, you would be paid; if
12 not, you wouldn't. Was that the essence?
13 A. No, that wasn't the essence. The key was the war broke out. I
14 wasn't able to leave Mostar any longer. The whole town was destroyed.
15 Even in the part of the city where I lived and where there were companies
16 that I had associated with prior to that, I was unable to communicate with
17 them. Nobody did any work.
18 Q. All right. So due to these circumstances, you were unable to do
19 any kind of work for your company, be it as a permanent employee or as an
20 agent of your company; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you know how many employees of that
23 company were fired on the 31st of December, 1991?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. But despite of that, you said that Croats stayed working and
1 Muslims were dismissed.
2 A. When I said that, I didn't mean primarily my company. I used the
3 information provided by the association headquartered in Jelah.
4 Q. All right. So not your company. But you don't know what
5 happened, who was dismissed. Was it just Muslims or Croats and everybody
7 A. No, but I hope that I will be able to provide a list.
8 Q. Which means that you hope that you will be able to get an answer
9 to this question?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I would like to turn to another topic. You spoke about the
12 events in 1991, about how -- how the independent company was established.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The year might have
14 been 1992.
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. What was the main purpose of the establishment of this independent
17 company which you joined practically right from the outset?
18 A. I think that its main purpose was to organise a resistance against
19 Serbian and Chetnik aggressor.
20 Q. It was in 1992. I'm saying this just for the sake of the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you say Serbian Chetnik aggression, do you agree that that
24 includes both the JNA and local rebels, if I may call them that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The HVO had the same task.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this company was active within the HVO.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So the HVO in its entirety and the company had the same purpose;
6 namely, to defend from the aggression carried out by the JNA and local
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this is how it was throughout the entire 1992?
10 A. Yes. Brigade and corps were also established, but that had to do
11 with the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 Q. I don't want to interrupt you, but I'm focusing on what I'm
13 interested in now. You explained to us how the corps was established, how
14 it strengthened over the time, and how later the army of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina was established.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But please confirm this to me: The Muslims and Croats together
18 under the HVO defended Mostar from the aggression carried out by the JNA
19 and local Serbs.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You spoke about the strength and weapons in possession of the
22 defenders of Mostar. Would you agree about this: In 1992, all the way up
23 until the time when the corps was established, the HVO was the dominant
24 force in Mostar. It had greater strength and better weapons than anyone
1 A. Yes. Even -- and that holds true even after the corps was
2 established. Even then, the HVO was dominant in terms of its strength and
3 equipment, in terms of materiel and other equipment.
4 Q. All right. Thank you. You said that later on and in late 1992
5 some incidents started taking place having to do with weapons. This is on
6 page 16, line 24, of yesterday's transcript. Do you agree with this? Do
7 you stand by your previous statement?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you cited as an example - at least, I interpreted this as an
10 example - that in Bijelo Polje someone called Andric - this is on
11 yesterday's transcript, page 17, line 14 - that Andric seized a convoy of
12 weapons valued at 800.000 Deutschmark and that it was under the control of
13 somebody from Capljina, Mirad --
14 A. Mirad Cupina. Mirad. M-i-r-a-d.
15 Q. Madam, please tell me, whose convoy was this? Mirad. This person
16 that you mentioned, who was the owner of that convoy?
17 A. I think that he came from Sarajevo, and I think that he did have
18 -- rather, I think that it came from Sarajevo and that its owner was the
19 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this convoy had been sent from
21 Q. Do you know this for a fact?
22 A. No. I believe that this is so.
23 Q. So you have no direct knowledge about this.
24 A. No, only indirect.
25 Q. Does this mean that you only heard this?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let me remind you, Ms. Drljevic, as a member of the army and as a
3 general citizen, you knew - I'm sure you learnt about this - that the JNA,
4 before the disintegration of Bosnia-Herzegovina and before the new state
5 was established, in fact had collected up all the weapons of the
6 Territorial Defence in Bosnia. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is.
7 A. I don't know what direction the convoy came from, who the owner
8 was, but I do know that it was sent to the corps, because Cupina, this man
9 Cupina, was the assistant commander to Pasalic, or one of -- one of the
10 experts for logistics in the corps.
11 Q. Very well.
12 A. Quite possibly, the convoy had come from another direction, but to
13 the best of my knowledge, indirectly, and talking to other people in the
14 brigade, I learnt that it was captured in Bijelo Polje.
15 Q. All right. Fine. Do you have any more detailed information or,
16 rather, do you know who seized the convoy? Who is this man Andric, or
17 what institution? Whose army?
18 A. It was the commander of the 1st Battalion from Bijelo Polje. I
19 think his name was Miro Andric, and his nickname was Car.
20 Q. This unit, did it belong to the HVO?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are you certain of that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell me, madam, please, did you hear or do
25 you know anything about the fact that at that same time and before that
1 and after that, that from Croatia a convoy of weaponry arrived intended
2 for the entire defence against the JNA and the Serbs? That is to say
3 intended for the army, for the volunteers, to begin with, and for the HVO.
4 Do you know that? Are you aware of that?
5 A. Yes, I do know that, but it might have come from Croatia and along
6 the borders of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. But quite possibly there
7 was a large number of those convoys coming in from -- or coming in to
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina or exclusively paid for by the government of
10 Q. Yes. But regardless of who paid for it, the fact remains that the
11 convoy, with weapons both for the BH army and the HVO, came from Croatia.
12 A. Yes. Right. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I'm going to show you a document by way of an example.
14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your permission,
15 may I have the usher show us document 3D0006.
16 Q. The translation of the document is on the next page. In English,
17 please. We have the next page. Would you, madam, take a look at the
18 Croatian version.
19 Ms. Drljevic, from the first line, under the word "Nalog," we see
20 that this is for materiel for the requirements of the armed forces of BH
21 Mostar. So this is one contingent, and we see that those responsible for
22 taking over this material was Mr. Emir Beslagic and Seta Sujab. Now, the
23 first question is this: Do you agree that these gentlemen who were
24 supposed to take over the weapons have typically Muslim names?
25 A. Yes, that's right. And this other one was an active officer
1 within the BH army. The army component in the army of the Federation. I
2 don't know him personally but I do know that I saw some documents bearing
3 his signature.
4 Q. All right. So it's quite clear from this document that the
5 Croatian government, the Ministry of Defence in Croatia, is sending -- is
6 sending weapons to the BH army. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to tender that
9 document into evidence, please.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, in the future - and
11 I've said this already - when a party submits a document - I insist on
12 this - I do want to have a paper copy, a hard copy.
13 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise, Your Honour. I thought that it was
14 distributed. Now I discovered that it didn't. I would like to have usher
15 to send the document.
16 However, Your Honours, you will see here a little bit more
17 documents. I will not draw all of them due to the fact that some facts
18 are already established, and I don't want to do too much.
19 I'd like to ask the registrar -- or the usher to place the second
20 document on the screen now, please.
21 May I have the Court's decision? Has the exhibit been admitted
22 into evidence?
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As to the first document,
24 Mr. Mundis.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would object on the
1 grounds that there's no proper foundation for this document to be admitted
2 through this witness.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you explain why the
4 Defence failed to offer the proper foundation for this document.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, there's no evidence that this witness
6 had ever seen this document before or knew the contents of this document
7 or knew who signed the document or any such proper foundation for this
8 witness to be tendering -- for this document to come into evidence through
9 this witness.
10 MR. KOVACIC: If I may, Your Honour, respond to that.
11 [Interpretation] In conformity with the instructions given by you a few
12 days ago, especially with the revised version, I consider that we do have
13 the possibility of showing the witness the document and then can tender it
14 into evidence because it is linked to the topic of discussion. That's
15 point one.
16 And point two: In this specific case the witness recognised the
17 name of one of the individuals who is mentioned in the document as the
18 individual who will take over the shipment.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Can I have a number,
20 Mr. Registrar?
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It will
22 be 3D0006. Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Kovacic.
24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for purposes of
25 clarity, later on in our Defence case we shall, of course, have a large
1 number of documents of this kind, and we shall indeed hand them over in a
2 package, and an individual will be able to explain the origins of the
4 I would now like to show this witness a few more documents of the
5 same type, and all of them refer to the period of time that she testified
6 about. So we have another document dated 1992, and then four documents
7 after that which take us up until March, 1993. And I'd like the usher,
8 with the Court's permission, to display the documents on the monitor. 007
9 is the first document.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to add that what I
11 said a moment ago, that is to say that I know the name of the individual,
12 but first of all Seta Sujab, I know him from after the war, that is to say
13 professionally serving in the BH army. Of course I have never seen this
14 particular document before.
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Yes, of course. I just want to show you several of these
17 documents so that we can agree, you and I, that it is a fact that almost
18 all the weaponry used both by the HVO and the BH army during 1992 and 1993
19 in Bosnia-Herzegovina came from Croatia. Do you agree with that?
20 A. Yes, I do agree, but these are not documents that I had access to.
21 But otherwise, yes, I do agree with your assessment. Regardless of where
22 they came from, they had to pass through Croatia.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I won't be taking up
25 more of your time by tendering six similar documents dated 1993. We will
1 do this -- up to March 1993. We'll do this through various witnesses.
2 And if this witness has confirmed them, then there is no reason for me to
3 take up more court time.
4 Q. Ms. Drljevic, let's move on. And if I might summarise, to speed
5 up, from pages 19 and 20 of yesterday's transcript, yesterday's testimony,
6 you said that especially as of January, 1993, and from that date onwards,
7 that incidents began to take place between the HVO and the BH army. Is
8 that right?
9 A. When we refer to Mostar, then I can say that there was increased
10 tension, and there were more frequent instances where trucks were stopped,
11 and there was resistance linked to an order -- I think it was an order of
12 the 20th of January. 15th or 20th of January, 1993, according to which
13 the BH army units should be resubordinated or, rather, placed completely
14 under the command of the HVO.
15 Q. Very well. You told us all that yesterday.
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. I'm now going to show you another document
18 which indicates a somewhat different situation, and I'd like to hear your
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] May we have the usher place the
21 document 3D0012 -- 00012 on the screen, please. That's not the document,
22 madam. It's another one.
23 May we zoom in, please, so we can see the document properly. We
24 also have a translation of the document, but I would like the witness to
25 see it. That's my intention here.
1 Q. So, Ms. Drljevic, can you read this document out to yourself,
3 Would you take a look at the signatory, the signature to this
4 document in particular, please.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Ms. Drljevic, from this document, according to the assessment made
7 by the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command of the army of BiH, Sefer
8 Halilovic, it would emerge that he considers that the situation in Mostar
9 and relations between the command of the BH army units and the units and
10 command of the HVO, is good, and I would even say fairly optimistic,
11 judging by this letter. That's what this says, doesn't it?
12 A. Yes. I think this was the result of negotiations that were held
13 between Mr. Pasalic and Sulejman Budakovic, who was his deputy, and they
14 had been in Prozor previously, paid a visit to Prozor and Jablanica. I
15 think I remembered the date and that it was March.
16 Q. All right. Fine.
17 A. I really -- or all I can say is that both sides invested efforts
18 to calm tensions, because I don't think this situation suited anyone, an
19 armed conflict. And when I say "armed conflict," now, I'm not fully
20 competent to talk about that, but I think that even people who were in
21 responsible positions did not expect a conflict of this kind to actually
22 take place.
23 Q. So bearing in mind what you've just told us, do you feel that the
24 incidents that you mentioned were the result of somebody's wish,
25 intention, desire, or anything of that nature, or were they simply the
1 result of the situation and circumstances that existed? And I can call it
2 quite simply chaos and an organised defence against the Chetniks and JNA
3 that we saw at that time.
4 A. I'm not sure I followed your question. I do apologise.
5 Q. Yes, you're quite right. I wasn't clear enough, and the question
6 was a long one. Let's break it up into parts.
7 Do you consider that the incidents that you mentioned and that we
8 talked about previously were the result -- or let me put it this way: Why
9 did those incidents take place? Were they planned by anybody? Did
10 anybody want them to happen, any institutions; the HVO, the BH army,
11 anything like that?
12 A. Well, that would -- it would be too much to expect of me, an
13 answer like that and an assessment on my part.
14 Q. All right. Fine. Now, the document that you have before you
15 directly refers to the visit by Arif Pasalic, the commander of the 4th
16 Corps of the BH army. You of course knew Pasalic, did you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that was the person who was the commander of the 4th Corps
19 with headquarters in Mostar; isn't that right? We talked about and we
20 discussed him, did we not? It's the same Arif Pasalic that you yourself
21 mentioned earlier on.
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Now, I'd like to tender this
24 document into evidence, Your Honour.
25 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Can I have a number,
2 Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] 3D00012. Thank you.
4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Ms. Drljevic, now we saw this document, and we heard your
6 description of this situation as it existed in early 1993. You yourself
7 mentioned the events of the 19th and 20th of April and how the relations
8 were tense. Is it true that by the 21st of April the tensions calmed
10 A. Yes, for a few days.
11 Q. Is it true that these incidents that you mentioned - and we saw a
12 document referring to them - that there would be an incident and then the
13 situation would calm down and then there would be another incident and
14 then another escalation of tensions? Would you agree with that?
15 A. Yes. I have already described this joint commission which was
16 housed in the water utility company. This commission toured the entire
17 city. It was a mixed commission. I remember that at some location the
18 vehicle of that commission was hit, but nobody was injured. So, yes, that
19 was an additional incident. And what was especially troubling were the
20 arrests of the army members in town. It went over a long period of time
21 of one month. Most of the negotiations concerned the proper solution to
22 that problem, to that issue.
23 Q. I think that we fully agree, Ms. Drljevic, concerning what you
24 said. So it was mostly through the efforts of commands of both sides that
25 they attempted to control the chaotic situation where incidents erupted
1 even between allies. Would you agree with me?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see -- can we put to
4 the witness the next document; 3D00016. [In English] 3D00016.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Drljevic, would you please take a look at
6 this document. Check the signatories.
7 My first question is: Did you see this document at the time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you hear the announcement on -- through the media?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was this also one of the examples of the efforts invested by both
12 sides to calm down the situation?
13 A. Yes, yes. This is precisely related to that joint commission.
14 It's possible that instead of Redzo Mehic it was Fikret Krekic.
15 Q. Yes, but no matter.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But you agree that the signatories on this document, Arif Pasalic
18 and Petar Zelenika, were definitely persons who participated in this
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you remember, perhaps, as someone who lived in Mostar, as
22 someone who moved in the circles of military commands of BH army units, do
23 you remember whether this plan announced by this document was actually
25 A. Could you scroll up the document, please? It's all right now.
1 Q. So it's the 21st of April.
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the next
5 Q. Rather, I apologise. Were you going to say anything else?
6 A. Yes. A part of this pertains to the fact that facilities could be
7 secured exclusively by the members of the military police.
8 Q. And the next topic, if I may point this out to you, and you can
9 say whether you agree or not, is under "The distribution or allocation of
10 certain military facilities"; is that right?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Another detail in this document, under item 3. It says that --
13 and I think you mentioned this in your evidence. It says here that long
14 barrels are hereby banned, or, rather, no one without official duties is
15 allowed to carry long barrels. Is that right?
16 A. Yes, but perhaps somebody from the commission should say more
17 about this, because they would be better placed to explain this. It was
18 impossible to implement this. We didn't have sufficient space in South
19 Camp, and it wasn't practical for people leaving and going into shifts --
20 well, the problem was that most of them had to take their weapons home.
21 Q. Yes. Yes. I'm sure we could discuss this question at length and
22 debate it, but I wanted to hear from you, as somebody who was there at the
23 time. You were a lady who lived there at the time. I wanted you
24 therefore to confirm that incident erupted and that both sides took steps
25 to eliminate them, to limit them, and to try to advance the -- the
2 A. Yes, yes. And people who were involved in drafting this order and
3 who are still alive would be better placed to tell you more about this. I
4 just know that the vehicle of this commission was fired at. I know that
5 it came to the Vranica building and that Damir Sipar conducted an on-site
7 Q. Very well. Let us now confirm that there was a will to implement
8 this agreement.
9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the usher to put document
10 D00017 up, please.
11 Q. Ms. Drljevic, please take a look at the document, who signed it.
12 I have just one question related to this document. And once you've taken
13 a look, tell me, please, do you agree that this document reflects
14 precisely what on the previous day, in the joint statement issued by
15 Pasalic and Zelenika, was written; namely, this is confirmed here by the
16 HVO commander Milenko Lasic. He's hereby issuing an order ordering his
17 troops to act in accordance with what was announced on the previous day
18 with that agreement.
19 A. Yes. I'm sure that there must be documents in the archives of the
20 army which we could have provided to the Prosecution.
21 Q. Yes. I believe that that is so, but I'm trying to clarify what I
23 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I would ask also that both of those
24 documents would be admitted in evidence.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, there are two
1 documents in this case. Could we please have a number for them.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. These two
3 documents will have numbers 3D00016, and 3D00017. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 The documents have been admitted.
5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Ms. Drljevic, we will now turn to another topic. Yesterday, when
7 asked by His Honour towards the end of day, on page 73, line 22, of the
8 transcript, the Honourable Judge asked you about your ability to remember
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Previous translation continues] ... private
11 session. Then I will ask for a brief private session, just for two short
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could we go into
14 private session, please.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 1157-1159 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Mr. Kovacic.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are back into open session,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, a few seconds ago,
8 has just told us that he has concluded his cross-examination. I shall now
9 turn to Madam Alaburic and ask her whether she would like to put any
10 questions to the witness.
11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]
12 ... questions for the witness.
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Drljevic, I'm Vesna Alaburic, attorney from
15 Zagreb, and I'm Defence counsel of General Milivoj Petkovic, who is one of
16 the accused in this case.
17 You answered many questions today about your dismissal, but I'm
18 going to ask you a number of additional questions because I think this
19 will help us clarify matters.
20 Today you told us that when Yugoslav laws, labour laws were in
21 force, and I'm quoting you, it wasn't possible to dismiss anybody without
22 proving in a court of law that he had made a serious mistake. That was
23 recorded in today's transcript. The page was 54, line 23 and 24.
24 Do you stand by that statement of yours?
25 A. Yes. May I just correct myself? It was very difficult to be
1 dismissed once you were given employment without any time deadline.
2 Q. Yes, I agree with you. Thank you for your answer. Now, if I tell
3 you that in the Republic of Croatia the first Croatian regulations and
4 law, labour laws, were enacted in 1995, the first law, and that in 1991 we
5 still had in force the republican labour law and the so-called federal law
6 on the basic rights emanating from employment, that those were rules and
7 regulations which were fully in force at the time when you received
8 employment and at the time that you were dismissed as well, which was at
9 the end of 1991, would you then agree with my observation that at the time
10 when you were dismissed the regulations that were in force in the Republic
11 of Croatia made it very difficult for anybody to be dismissed from their
13 A. Yes. But may I add that I, pursuant to a power of attorney, I
14 received my work booklet in 1995 or 1996. I wasn't expecting to speak on
15 this topic at greater length. Otherwise, I would have prepared myself for
16 it and brought in documents to bear out what I'm saying.
17 Q. We're just talking about rules and regulations at the time you
18 received your dismissal letter.
19 Now, from the reasons stated for your dismissal, which you
20 described to us yesterday and which was recorded in transcript -- in the
21 transcript on page 8, lines 13 to 15, it would emerge that you yourself
22 were dismissed for reasons which were conditioned professionally by your
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After that, you told us that you were dismissed probably because a
1 decision made by the Republic of Croatia by which anybody who did not have
2 residence in Croatia had to be dismissed. Now, in that connection, I
3 would just like us to clarify the first point.
4 In the dismissal letter that you received, no mention is made, I
5 assume, by a single word of the problem of your residence in Croatia or
6 lack of residence in Croatia. Would you agree with that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You told us today that the government decision that you referred
9 to is one that you did not see yourself, and therefore I conclude that
10 somebody told you of the existence of that government decision and
11 explained what it contained.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us with certainty that it was indeed a decision by
14 the Croatian government and not, for example, the law on employment
15 governing foreigners?
16 A. I'm sure it was a government decision, a decision of the
17 government of the Republic of Croatia. And I hope -- or, rather, I don't
18 know what the procedure is in the law courts. Probably it was my mistake
19 that I did not prepare myself better with respect to the documentation
20 needed, but that the knowledge we had about negotiations between the two
21 governments and the involvement of the legal team on my case, then I would
22 have brought this in as material evidence.
23 Q. Now, would you agree with me when I say the following: That had
24 in the Republic of Croatia a government decision actually existed which
25 would have enabled workers who did not have residency in Croatia to be
1 dismissed, would your employer then, in the dismissal letter, state as the
2 reasons for a business -- business-related reason for your dismissal?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. In your dismissal letter and in the decision on dismissal, did it
5 say that you did not have the right to appeal, that you did not have the
6 right to take your employer to court, and that you did not have the right
7 to appeal the decision of the dismissal?
8 A. I don't know. I really can't say. I didn't expect you to ask me
9 questions like this.
10 Q. Can you explain to us, then: You said that you did not challenge
11 the dismissal at the time, the decision on dismissal, and you said that
12 the day after the work broke out. Can you tell us whether it was the war
13 circumstances that were truly the sole reason for which you did not
14 contest the decision about the dismissal?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Does this mean, in other words, that the reasons set out in the
17 dismissal letter that you considered to be well-founded and that is why
18 you did not have the intention to appeal them and to contest them?
19 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I just analysed the situation a
20 little later on.
21 Q. Well, that's what I'm interested in. You said that two years ago,
22 you learnt of the existence of an association dealing with the continuity
23 of labour and employment for workers who had received dismissals at the
24 beginning of the 1990s, and these employees were mostly Bosniaks and
1 Now, my question to you is this: Let's clarify whether that was
2 actually the case. Did you learn about the existence of this association
3 two years ago?
4 A. Yes, just by chance on television.
5 Q. Tell us, please, your knowledge about this association, did it
6 influence your position --
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic --
8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour. I do
10 Q. Ms. Drljevic, can you tell us whether you learnt about the
11 existence of this association and the goals that the association was
12 fighting for, did that influence your position regarding the dismissal
13 letter you had received 12 years prior to that?
14 A. Well, for the most part, yes. However, I must say that I was very
15 surprised that a decision of that kind had been made in the first place.
16 Q. What decision?
17 A. The government decision.
18 Q. Well, I can tell you that that government decision didn't exist,
19 but this isn't the subject of our debate.
20 Now, is it a fact that when you learnt about this association this
21 influenced a change in attitude on your part and that, in giving your
22 statement in 2001 and 2002, you briefly said that you had been dismissed
23 when the war broke out because, and I quote, "I was not able to go to
24 work." That is on page 3 of your statement. And today, you are,
25 nevertheless, trying to present this dismissal in quite a different light.
1 A. Now, this is a question of terminology. I really did not go to
2 work. I couldn't perform my work. We would have meetings three or four
3 times in the firm itself, and I would go from time to time, but for the
4 most part I worked in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and my job, my work, was linked
5 to travelling round to visit the buyers. But once again, that would be
6 going to work, come under the term of going to work.
7 Q. Thank you. All I want to say is that before you learnt about the
8 existence of the association, you said that you were dismissed because you
9 couldn't go to work, whereas now you're telling us something quite
10 different. So that was the basic grounds for my question.
11 Now, thank you for answering questions about your employment and
12 so on. I'm not going to ask you any more about that, but I'd like to deal
13 with the Vranica buildings and -- or building and what took place in that
14 building on the 8th and 9th of May.
15 You referred to a part of the building that you called the cellar,
16 or basement, a few times, which is where the brigade had its headquarters
17 and the corps had its headquarters. Can you tell us now, please, whether
18 it was something that is generally considered to be the basement of a
19 building, or was it a shelter that had been well organised with
20 well-organised office premises and all the furnishings that that would
22 A. We're talking about the 9th and 10th of May. Well, yes, I was in
23 Vranica on the 8th as well. But, yes, they were sales premises that had
24 been properly furbished where the brigade was put up, and there was the
25 leather factory from Visoko that had its premises there, and another
1 company, the Vranica company.
2 Q. Can you describe that basement or cellar to us, please. Were
3 there several rooms in the basement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were they properly painted? Was there furniture there? Did you
6 have telephones and things like that?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Was the basement equipped as a shelter?
9 A. Well, to a certain extent, yes, in view of the fact that it was a
10 rather new building. Well, perhaps the building had been built ten years
11 ago. But according to the law, you had to have a shelter in each newly
12 constructed building, and that the shelter was to be in the basement. So
13 it wasn't a basement for a boiler room or anything like that.
14 Q. Thank you for describing the basement to us. Now, I'd like to
15 refer to a statement you made yesterday in order to clarify it. You told
16 us yesterday on transcript page 34, lines 8 and 9, that you were lacking
17 ammunition in the 9th or 10th of May - in 1993, that is - and that it was
18 becoming clear that you wouldn't be able to defend yourselves. Now, in
19 that connection, I would like to clear up the following: It would appear
20 that the BH army was shooting from the Vranica building, that it took part
21 actively in the fighting from the actual premises of the Vranica building
22 and the close vicinity of the building.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Now can we clarify the -- something with regard to the
25 telephone lines in the Vranica cellar or, rather, the area where the BH
1 army soldiers were located as were the residents of the building itself.
2 You told us yesterday that for the whole time you had telephone
3 communication with the forward command post in the building of the SDK,
4 the social accounting services building, on the opposite bank of the river
5 Neretva. And that statement was recorded on page 31 of the transcript,
6 lines 24 and 25. So I'm now asking you to clarify.
7 When you said the whole time, did you mean the whole 9th and 10th
8 of May, 1993, or what? What period did you have in mind?
9 A. Yes. It was radio communication which was encrypted. Encrypted
11 Q. Tell me, please, did you actually communicate with the forward
12 command post?
13 A. Via -- with the help of codes, encryption.
14 Q. Yes. Do you know how many messages were exchanged?
15 A. Well, I don't know. I wasn't in the signals section the whole
17 Q. Well, 20, 50?
18 A. No, no, much less. Far fewer. Perhaps four or five. Four or
19 five that I know about, but quite possibly there might have been 20.
20 Q. Could you reproduce the contents of those statements, or messages,
21 rather, that were exchanged? What were they about?
22 A. The last one I received was, "Hold on, we're coming." And in one
23 of the previous messages it was that, "We've reached the prison and the
24 Rondo." And that was only partially true. I checked that out later on.
25 One of those messages asked that anaesthesiologists be found,
1 Dr. Milavic and Jakupovic. And this indicated most probably that there
2 were wounded. And later on I learned that Dr. Milavic responded to the
3 call-up but that Dr. Jakupovic stayed on the right bank. She stayed.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, you also told us about communication with people
5 from the HVO.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you told us that somebody called up from the HVO - and that is
8 recorded on page 33, lines 22 and 23 of the transcript - and you also told
9 us that you called, or one of the gentlemen who were with you called
10 Jadran Topic, and that statement is recorded on that same page in lines 15
11 and 16. Now, on the basis of those statements of yours, would I be right
12 in concluding that your communication with the HVO throughout the whole
13 time was unimpeded?
14 A. Yes, by telephone.
15 Q. Now, tell us this: Was the HVO -- had it wanted to, be able to
16 interrupt the telecommunications from the area that you were in?
17 A. Yes, it could have.
18 Q. Thank you. Now a few questions about your leaving the Vranica
19 building. You told us yesterday about how the wall was broken through -
20 and that is recorded on pages 31, lines 8 and 9 of the transcript - and
21 you also mentioned that this was proposed by some individuals who knew how
22 the building had been built and knew that this was a partition wall made
23 of bricks and that it could be knocked down.
24 Now, tell us, did these same people know where the road was
25 leading to once you had done away with the bricks and the wall?
1 A. Yes. Since one of those individuals were there all the time, at
2 the headquarters of the brigade all the time, whereas the other young man
3 just happened to be there and he happened to work in Vranica before the
5 Q. But tell us, where did this other path lead to?
6 A. The second entrance of the same building, you mean?
7 Q. Yes, of the same building. Can you explain to us why you had take
8 down the bricks and with -- and then go to another entrance if you wanted
9 to get out to the second entrance and not to the first entrance that was
10 closer to you? Was the reason perhaps this - and I apologise if my
11 conclusion is wrong: Was it because that at the second entrance you could
12 introduce yourselves as civilians to the people who were waiting for you
13 rather than going through the first entrance that was the entrance used by
14 the brigade and corps command? I think that would be quite
15 understandable. You wanted to try and save yourselves.
16 A. Well, I never thought about it in that way. I didn't know whether
17 there was someone with weapons on that other entrance, perhaps, at that
18 other entrance. So I personally can't say. I don't know.
19 Q. So in fact, you broke down a wall, you shot at a door without
20 knowing why you were actually doing that.
21 A. I didn't know where we were going. Now, whether the people who
22 knew this was a partition wall knew where it led to -- perhaps they did,
23 because there was once again a basement premises, and then you would go up
24 along a second staircase, but I really can't say. But I do know that the
25 entrances where the soldiers were standing, there was absolutely no chance
1 of us leaving that way. Thank you.
2 Q. As for changing the clothes, you said that you were in uniforms
3 and then you changed your clothes. Was it after you had broken down the
4 wall, when you were close to the second entrance, or was that before, when
5 you still didn't know that you would get basically just to the same
6 entrance of -- to the second entrance of the same building?
7 A. I changed in the first entrance, after I woke up. I don't know
8 for the rest.
9 Q. Did you change into your own clothes or into somebody else's
11 A. I changed into the clothes of my friend, my lady friend where I
12 had spent the previous night.
13 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions concerning the Vranica
14 building. Thank you for your answers. But I would just like to put other
15 questions to you concerning military operations, even though, when asked
16 by Mr. Prlic's counsel, you said you were not an expert for military
17 issues, but I'm still going to press you for another explanation.
18 Yesterday, you mentioned an operation called Bura in November of
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you said how the army of BH tried to attack the Chetniks and
22 that the HVO was quite passive about it. I'm now paraphrasing your words.
23 You said this on page 18, lines 10 to 24.
24 I would like to ask you this now: Do you know that the Operation
25 Bura was supposed to cover a much greater area than Podvelezje which you
1 mentioned? Did you know that it also included Stolac and a much broader
2 area around Mostar? Were you aware of that?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.
8 Mr. Jonjic, you have the floor.
9 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I will
10 attempt to tender into evidence some 10 to 12 documents through this
11 witness. We have copies prepared for all Judges, and I would like to ask
12 the usher's assistance in order to distribute them. I hope that there
13 will be no problems with e-court.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Jonjic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Drljevic, good afternoon. My name is
16 Tomislav Jonjic. I will be putting questions to you on behalf of
17 Mr. Coric.
18 Since my colleagues exhausted quite a number of questions that I
19 was going to put to you myself, and since you said you had no military
20 expertise, I will try to limit myself to the topics which in my view you
21 should be familiar with.
22 Tell me, please, you spent your whole life, or most of your life,
23 in Mostar; isn't that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Based on your yesterday's evidence, page 9, lines 16 to 18, you
1 said that the war in Mostar broke out in September of 1991. On the 19th
2 of September, 1991, when the reservists of the JNA came into town; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Since you spent your whole life in Mostar, and since you were
6 quite active in the circles from which later on the BH army was founded,
7 can you tell us, what was the reaction of the SDA or, rather, the Bosniak
8 Muslim residents once the reservists came into town?
9 A. First of all, I was never a member of the SDA. I can't speak on
10 behalf of the general public. I came into conflict mostly with my
11 friends, Serbs that I used to socialise with, especially since I lived in
12 the vicinity of the South Camp where the reservists were billeted.
13 I personally was upset with their status, and I even stopped
14 seeing some people when I realised that they supported that, but I can't
15 say about other people.
16 Q. Are you familiar whether there were any demonstrations? Were
17 there any public expressions of revolt on behalf of the Muslim residents?
18 A. No, I don't think there was. What I know I learned later. I know
19 several men who had been engaged in the reserve forces of MUP and who
20 patrolled in the part of town where I live. Later on, I was upset by the
21 fact that the first conflict and first incidents took place precisely
22 there while on the other bank of the Neretva life went on as normal.
23 Q. Thank you. You know the ethnic composition of Mostar; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know the ratio between Croat and Muslim residents in Mostar
2 in 1991 in percentages?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. You don't know percentages?
5 A. Well, the difference was 1 or 2 per cent.
6 Q. You say that from the very beginning you were in the Independent
7 Company which later grew into Independent Battalion and then that became
8 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. My colleagues asked you about the difference in strength between
11 the members of the HVO and the army of BH. Can you give us some reasons,
12 can you give us your interpretation for that situation where in one city
13 there is an equal number of Muslim and Croat residents, and initially
14 there was just one company and one brigade of the BH army, whereas there
15 were nine battalions of the HVO simultaneously, at the same time?
16 A. Well, I wouldn't go into reasons for that, but you have to bear in
17 mind that the war in Croatia had started significantly earlier. So the
18 HVO had huge support and assistance from Croatia.
19 Q. Very well. You said several times, both yesterday and today, that
20 in the course of 1992, especially up until November of 1992 when the 4th
21 Corps was established, the company and, later on, the Independent
22 Battalion were within the HVO; is that right?
23 A. I'm not sure about the time.
24 Q. 1992.
25 A. For the most part, yes. But for a part of the year the documents
1 referred to this fact, and I said so previously. We used terms
2 "commander" and "command," Croatian terms.
3 Q. So in the operation sense they were under the HVO.
4 A. To a certain extent. I don't know until what time.
5 Q. On page 10, lines 5 to 7, of the transcript yesterday, you said
6 that your father had been imprisoned and taken to the Chetnik camp in
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On page 59 and 60 of the transcript, you said that he had been
10 exchanged there and went back home. Do you know where this exchange took
12 A. In Stolac. But they were released in Berkovici, and then they had
13 to walk for seven kilometres.
14 Q. You, at that time, which was August of 1992, were already in the
15 command of the brigade. Was it already the brigade?
16 A. No, no, no. I remained in the barracks, South Camp barracks. My
17 father was exchanged in July, and I went looking for him before that, when
18 the first exchange took place in Ljubuski, and it was only then that I had
19 learned that my father was in Ljubuski.
20 Q. Do you know who agreed this exchange? Was it agreed or negotiated
21 by the BH army or the HVO?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Were you present at the location where the exchange took place?
24 A. No. No. In Ljubuski I saw a lot of people. A woman told me that
25 my father had been taken out as though to be released, and then he came
1 two or three days later. Quite accidentally, I stood there outside. I
2 saw a bus pass by, and accidentally I went home and I found him there in
3 prison clothes. I know that in Metkovici he gave a statement for
4 television, and he said that we shouldn't forget that people had remained
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is now 3.00. We must have a
7 technical break, and we shall resume at twenty minutes past three.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.01 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 3.24 p.m.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. We are
11 going to work, at most, another one hour and a half.
12 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Before we
13 continue, I would like to bring to your attention an error in the
14 transcript, which could be a result of me speaking too fast. On page 106,
15 line 16, instead of "the company," it should say "one battalion of the BH
16 army and nine battalions of the HVO."
17 Q. Madam, now let us go back to what we were discussing. Were you
18 personally present when your father was exchanged?
19 A. No.
20 Q. But I assume that you talked about the conditions prevailing in
21 the Chetnik camp, about people who were imprisoned there.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did he tell you what municipalities the people who were in the
24 camp were? Were those mostly people from Eastern Herzegovina, from the
25 eastern bank of the Neretva?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did he tell you something about the ethnic make-up of the people
3 who were detained and then exchanged in Stolac?
4 A. Yes, he did speak about that. I remember that those were mostly
5 Muslims, and then some were Croats from Kocina Opina neighbourhood or,
6 rather, from Gnojnica and Bijelo Polje. Yesterday I gave the names, or,
7 rather, he gave the names of people who had been in prison.
8 Q. But those were mostly Muslims.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The HVO handed over to the JNA captured JNA members and members of
11 the Chetnik formations, and in return, they got mostly Muslims. Do you
12 know where these people were housed once -- because the areas where they
13 lived were mostly still occupied. So where did they go to live once they
14 had been exchanged?
15 A. They went back mostly to Mostar.
16 Q. Yesterday, on page 59 and 60 of the transcript, you said that your
17 father was among those who returned to an office led by -- he went to an
18 office led by Miroslav Bosnjak. Even though his last name is Bosnjak, the
19 man's a Croat. Are you aware of that?
20 A. Yes, I know that. And I find it sad that people are described by
21 their ethnic origin. I know that his last name was Bosnjak, and I know
22 that Croatian chequerboard was in the coat of arms, and this was the
23 office for victims of Chetnik terror. That's what it was called. I don't
24 know what you're aiming at.
25 Q. It was an office of the HVO.
1 A. Yes, but my father was a civilian, as were many other people.
2 Q. Yes. Yes, that's clear.
3 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask for usher's assistance,
4 please show us document 5D01011.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please
6 not overlap.
7 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] It seems that we have some
8 difficulties with the e-court. I have sufficient number of hard copies.
9 I can even provide one to the witness, with the Court's leave.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, if the e-court fails to
11 work, we can have the documents in the hard copy on the overhead
13 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know how to
14 ensure that everyone, including the Prosecution, has the relevant
15 document. I don't know what the technical procedure would be. We seem to
16 have the translation on the ELMO.
17 Q. Ms. Drljevic, is this office that we have been discussing the one
18 contacted by your father and led by Mr. Miroslav Bosnjak, the lawyer?
19 A. Yes, that's correct. However, I would like to point out that on a
20 number of occasions I also went to that office. There was a fair-haired
21 young man, I don't know what his name is, but his father used to work with
22 my father in the tobacco factory. I can't remember his name, though.
23 When I told him that my father had arrived, they contacted him themselves,
24 and I believe that he provided them with the names of about a hundred
25 Croats who had been detained. This is something I mentioned yesterday.
1 Q. If we have a look at this document -- it's not necessary to read
2 through the entire document, but if we have a look at the document, we can
3 see that it has to do with the municipal office of the HVO in Mostar.
4 They're contacting -- contacting the Red Crescent in Mostar, which is a
5 humanitarian organisation, and they're informing them of the fact that,
6 over the last three and a half months, because it says that the office was
7 opened on the 9th of June, 1992, and this submission is dated the 28th of
8 October, 1992, so it says that the office was involved in an exchange of
9 prisoners from Herzegovina when 800 persons were liberated, mostly people
10 from Eastern Herzegovina.
11 So we agree that this is the office contacted by your father.
12 And now let's have a look at a document that has the following
13 number: 5 -- 5D01010.
14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] We don't seem to have the electronic
15 version of this document.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may correct
17 something. My father did not contact this office. This office contacted
18 my father because, up until that time, they didn't have any information on
19 the names of the people who had gone missing.
20 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I have nothing against such an interpretation. Everything is
22 fine, although I believe in yesterday's transcript something else was
23 said, but it's not necessary to go into that.
24 If we could have a look at the following document, the next
25 document. I have a sufficient number of hard copies here.
1 This is a certificate from that very same office, issued on the
2 11th of July, 1992, and this certificate confirms that a significant
3 number of Muslim civilians who were detained in Bileca were exchanged.
4 And the office then mentions the necessity of distributing humanitarian
5 aid. Is that what it says?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then it also says that this office holds it necessary and
8 suggests that the above-named persons should be given priority and
9 protection in the following three months in obtaining social medical aid
10 and movement permissions.
11 Can we agree that this office, opened by the HVO, assisted Muslims
12 exchanged -- who were exchanged and who were from Eastern Herzegovina?
13 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could this document
14 please be admitted into evidence?
15 Q. Ms. Drljevic --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are asking for the two
17 documents to be admitted into evidence; is that right? No objection to
18 the text, Mr. Mundis?
19 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was sure of it. Two numbers.
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. 5D01010
22 and 5D010111. Thank you.
23 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Ms. Drljevic, let's go back to the same subject. You said that
25 most of the people who were exchanged from Eastern Herzegovina had been
1 provided with accommodation in Mostar. Where exactly? Could you be more
2 precise? Was it in a sports hall or was it in flats?
3 A. Many people were provided with accommodation in the pupils' home,
4 and a significant number of them were provided with accommodation in
5 flats. These people agreed to stay in destroyed flats in eastern part of
6 Mostar, and as a result, they tried to repair these flats to a certain
7 extent, and some of them found accommodation in Western Mostar, in the
8 western part of Mostar.
9 Q. There was more accommodation available there?
10 A. Yes, that is correct. And I also have to say that many of those
11 people, including the people who were expelled from Podvelezje in Chetnik
12 operations, many of these people were somewhat afraid of the river.
13 Q. Very well. Tell me, during that period of time, summer 1992 and
14 in the autumn, who distributed the flats? Who would assign flats that had
15 been abandoned by JNA officers?
16 A. Well, it wasn't just JNA officers but also Serbian civilians.
17 They were the only civilian authorities in Mostar at the time. The HVO
18 represented both the military and civilian authority in Mostar. This was
19 probably on the basis of an agreement from the end of April. I only heard
20 about this, I didn't see it myself, but it was an agreement with the SDA
21 and the HDZ.
22 I can't provide you with any specific details about this because
23 I'm not familiar with the case, but I know that the HVO had both civilian
24 and military power in Mostar.
25 Q. Very well. To simplify things, the HVO provided refugees from
1 Eastern Herzegovina with aid through the intermediary of this office, and
2 they then allowed them to find accommodation in flats?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Very well. Yesterday you said on page 31 of the transcript, line
5 8, that some of the refugees from Eastern Herzegovina were provided with
6 accommodation in Vranica as well.
7 A. A certain number of people were provided with accommodation in
8 Vranica, but they were from the eastern or, rather, left bank, from the
9 area of Brankovci and Luka.
10 Q. Very well. Yesterday, you also said, on page 15 and 16 of the
11 transcript, that up until the time the 4th Corps of the BH army was formed
12 in November, 1992 -- you said that this corps was formed because there
13 were more people arriving from Eastern Herzegovina.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So we're talking about the same people who were exchanged in July
16 and August, 1992.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So these people were exchanged, and they were mostly Muslims. You
19 said they were exchanged in July and August, 1992.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The HVO office, with Mr. Bosnjak at its head, provided them with
22 assistance or, rather, asked that they be granted a special sort of
23 status, and then they found accommodation in Mostar. They found
24 accommodation in flats that the HVO distributed, and then they found
25 positions in the BH army.
1 A. Well, that's true to an extent. I don't know why you're
2 surprised. Some of them arrived although they hadn't been detained in
4 Q. Naturally.
5 A. They were mostly from Pod Vresinje and Podvelezje, and some of
6 them also came from Gacka. They had forced their way through to Mostar.
7 But there were also many people who found positions or became -- or joined
8 the HVO, and I don't see why it should be surprising to say that some of
9 them joined the army, or the "armija."
10 Q. Today, you said that you weren't a traditional secretary. You
11 weren't a normal secretary. You also had other matters to do with, the
12 social welfare of members of companies, battalions, brigades, and of
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. With regard to the office led by Mr. Bosnjak, the office whose
16 responsibility it was to help members of the ABiH, were you aware of the
17 fact that they didn't only help civilians but also members of the BH army?
18 A. Yes. I know that at the time they were also treated in the Safet
19 Mujic hospital. Many members of the army were treated there.
20 Q. I'm not talking about treatment. I'm talking about social help
21 provided by this office to ABiH members. Are you aware of this since you
22 were involved in such matters?
23 A. Yes, I was aware of the fact, but I must also add that many people
24 were referred to the Red Crescent, and armija or army members would
25 receive humanitarian aid from our warehouses. You'll now say that this
1 came from Croatia again.
2 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show us the
3 following document: Document number 5D010019.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could counsel avoid
5 overlapping with the witness.
6 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] If we don't have an electronic
7 version, I have a hard copy.
8 I apologise. It probably won't affect the fact that the e-court
9 isn't functioning, but number should be 5D01009 and not 0019. So a
10 mistake has been made in the transcript.
11 Q. Ms. Drljevic, have you had a look at the document?
12 A. Yes, I know who the person concerned is.
13 Q. So you know who the person concerned is. Excellent. So we can
14 then agree that at the beginning of September, 1992, the HVO office in
15 Mostar issued a certificate confirming that the son of Ibro Zlomusica, if
16 I'm reading this correctly, from Podvelezje --
17 A. Yes. I think his name was Nerkez.
18 Q. It says he was killed as a member of the 1st Mostar Brigade. And
19 then it says: "This certificate is issued with the aim of giving priority
20 to the family of the killed person and providing social, medical and other
21 kinds of humanitarian aid." Is that correct? You say you know that
23 A. Yes. I -- I do. His brother worked with me.
24 Q. Excellent.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Give the number in English. It
1 will be faster.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. It will be in English.
3 [In English] 5D01009. Thank you.
4 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Ms. Drljevic, to conclude with this matter, can you tell us how
6 many people came to Mostar from Eastern Herzegovina in the spring and
7 summer of 1992? I'm referring to those expelled, naturally.
8 A. Well, I don't know. I assume that there were about 10 to 15.000
9 people who arrived.
10 Q. According to the information I have, the number is significantly
11 larger. But even if we agreed that it was the number that you have
12 mentioned, would you be able to tell us anything about the ethnic group or
13 ethnic groups that those people belonged to?
14 A. On the whole, they were Muslims; they were Bosniaks.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Since you have said you don't have any
16 specific military knowledge, I'm not going to show you any documents that
17 refer to military matters and how things developed in military terms
18 towards the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993. But as a secretary and
19 someone who spend her entire life in Mostar, you are certainly in a
20 position to evaluate what the psychological situation was, or, rather,
21 what the atmosphere was like in the ABiH or in the circles that you moved
23 On a number of occasions reference was made to tension in April
24 and May, 1993. Unfortunately, you never mentioned whether, as the
25 commander's secretary, you were aware of the fact that in mid-April in
1 1993, in the area of Konjic, concern conflicts, certain fights broke out
2 between Muslims and Croats. Let's simplify matters.
3 A. Well, I only had hearsay information about this.
4 Q. Did you ever hear about the slaughter in Trusina, for example?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You didn't? Now, those events in mid-1993, or, rather, in April,
7 1993, did they lead to any reaction in the headquarters of the brigade and
8 corps, or shouldn't I be asking that in view of the fact that you said
9 that you didn't hear about it?
10 A. Well, I heard about it later, but at that time I really didn't,
11 although I did know that there were tensions, and I do know that since in
12 Konjic, in addition to the brigade -- well, I can't remember the date when
13 the 6th Corps was actually established, but I think it was quite some time
14 later, but anyway, what I know is this: I know that Mr. Pasalic went up
15 there for negotiations of some kind with Duga Covic, and I know that there
16 was an HVO unit up there. As for Trusina, no, I didn't know about that at
17 the time.
18 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the name of
19 Trusina be included in the record? I think that should be at the
20 beginning of page 118, line 4, because this was a very serious crime that
21 took place there, it had serious repercussions on the mood of the Croats
22 in BH and was, of course, reflected on what was to follow. So the name is
24 Q. Tell us, please, Ms. Drljevic, several times today we mentioned --
25 or, rather, my colleague Mr. Kovacic, the Defence counsel of Mr. Praljak,
1 showed you documents dated to the second half of April, 1993, about an
2 attempt to reach an agreement. You will remember having seen that a
3 moment ago. We saw a joint communique by Pasalic and Zelenika.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So within the framework of all that, of the attempt to quell the
6 situation, to calm tensions, negotiations were conducted, and one side
7 informed the other side about the capacities that they had at their
8 disposal, both in terms of manpower and materiel and equipment. So I
9 wouldn't ask you that were it not for the fact that in your statements you
10 said that the commander, Hujka, withheld information about the materiel
11 and technical equipment of the HVO, MTS. Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes, I do remember that, but I'm not quite sure whether this was
13 not carried out. I know he was angry about it, but I can't say with any
14 certainty whether or not everything went out as a corps decision or a
16 Q. Could you tell us why Commander Hujka would withhold information
17 of that kind? Why was it important for that information to remain secret?
18 A. I don't know. I can't answer that, unfortunately. We can't ask
19 him any more either.
20 Q. All right. Fine. Now, a moment ago, we mentioned medical
21 treatment for members of the BH army. Would you agree that all the
22 hospitals, all the hospital capacities in Mostar, were situated on the
23 right bank of the river Neretva?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And what about the civilians, Muslim civilians and members of the
1 BH army? Were they able to avail themselves of medical treatment in those
2 hospitals without any impediments?
3 A. Yes. And the hospitals were staffed largely by doctors who were
4 Muslims and Bosniaks. And during a certain period of time, they had to
5 take an oath of office as well.
6 Q. So they worked until the conflict broke out in May, 1995 [sic]; is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes, and even after that.
9 Q. Tell me, do you know anything about the preparations for building
10 a hospital or more hospital facilities on the banks of the -- eastern
11 banks of the river Neretva?
12 A. Already in August, 1992, in South Camp we had outpatients
13 departments and clinics, makeshift clinics for providing first aid. We
14 had a dental service and things like that. And when -- and this was
15 sometime in November or December when --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry to interrupt, Mr. President, but there seems to
18 be, in line 8 on page 120, a reference to 1995, and I'm not sure if that's
19 correct or if that needs to be corrected.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Mr. President. It was
22 1993. I apologise if I made a slip of the tongue.
23 Q. Ms. Drljevic, may we continue with what we were discussing. You
24 were saying that in November, December --
25 A. When there was increased artillery fire from Chetnik units
1 targeting Mostar, including the dam at the HM Mostar, it was very
2 difficult to carry people across the old bridge by carrying them. That
3 was the only communication between the left and right bank. So what was
4 done was to set up a hospital in the institute of hygiene. I think that
5 that was in 1993, but I'm not quite sure when.
6 I specifically remember -- well, I don't know when that young man
7 was wounded and he was left without his legs. He was wounded at the dam.
8 They returned him to South Camp, but by the time they had taken him across
9 the bridge, they had to amputate both his legs.
10 Q. So the fact that Hujka withheld information about materiel and
11 technical equipment and the plans for building a hospital in eastern
12 Mostar has nothing to do with any possible preparations for stopping the
13 alliance, from breaking the alliance?
14 A. No, I don't think so.
15 Q. Tell me, according to your testimony yesterday, on page 31, lines
16 23 and 24, you said that -- and I think this was something that was also
17 brought up today by a colleague of mine. You said that the BH army, on
18 the eastern bank of the river Neretva, had a forward command post in the
19 SDK social accounting services building.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do we agree that the headquarters and Main Staff of the corps was
22 in the Vranica building?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, tell us what the distance is between the SDK on the eastern
25 banks of the Neretva and Vranica on the west, as the crow flies.
1 A. Well, I don't know about as the crow flies, but it's quite a long
2 way away if you had to walk because you had to cross the old bridge.
3 Q. Can you tell us as the crow flies, roughly, a rough estimate?
4 Give or take 200 metres or 500 metres? It doesn't matter.
5 A. Well, perhaps two kilometres.
6 Q. Right. So it was two kilometres from the headquarters and the
7 forward command post; right? Now, we're talking about the beginning of
8 May, 1993. How far were the JNA forces or Chetnik forces away from the
9 town of Mostar? At what distance?
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, I do have to
11 intervene, because there's a question of relevance. I believe that you
12 want to draw up the whole history of 1991, 1992, and 1993 through this
13 witness. Remember the scope of the cross-examination under Rule 90 is
14 such that you have to put your questions as arising from the questions put
15 in examination-in-chief.
16 I have kept quiet so far, but you could put some questions to some
17 other witnesses who are more relevant. This witness is a secretary of the
18 Mostar Battalion. She was a victim. If you want to put sort of
19 geopolitical questions to her or questions of military strategy, it
20 doesn't seem to be right. It's out of place.
21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. I've
22 understood your guidelines and will move on to the next question.
23 Q. Ms. Drljevic, you were, right up until you were captured in the
24 Vranica building, you worked there on a daily basis.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did civilians live in the Vranica building?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know that in the headquarters of the brigade or, rather,
4 the corps, that the question was ever raised of whether the fact that the
5 headquarters were located in the building in which there were civilians
6 whether those civilians were, by that same token, taken into -- turned
7 into potential victims or hostages?
8 A. No.
9 Q. That question never arose?
10 A. No.
11 Q. There were women and children living there as well, were there
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. But, with your permission, may I be allowed to say the following:
16 It was a location agreed upon earlier on with the HVO, before I arrived
18 Q. Well, I see no reason for me to enter into polemics about that
19 with you because previously the Defence of General Praljak showed
20 documents dated the 21st and 23rd of April, 1993, from which we can see
21 that it was agreed that the BH army should withdraw to South Camp and the
22 military police of the BH army should remain in the existing facilities.
23 So in those documents, there was no provision for the fact that Vranica
24 should remain the headquarters. But that is something that you and I need
25 not discuss here and now.
1 With your permission, Ms. Drljevic, I should like now to talk
2 about the time when you were taken prisoner. The individuals who were
3 taken away with you to the MUP building, you spoke about that at length
4 yesterday, were they -- I'm talking about the journalists. Were they
5 members of the BH army or not?
6 A. The three of them, no, they weren't.
7 Q. And who was, then?
8 A. Well, a man who was not captured then, but he was the editor in
9 the radio, and he was assistant commander for moral guidance. His name
10 was Alija Idar [phoen]. And he was brought in subsequently because one of
11 the women had left and she indicated the place where they were hiding.
12 Q. I'd like for a moment to return to something that a number of my
13 colleagues asked you about when you changed into civilian clothing. Now,
14 in view of the fact that you and most of the BH army members changed into
15 civilian clothing and that your headquarters were located in a building
16 that was principally a civilian building, did it enter any of your heads
17 that you were putting civilians at risk, that they could be captured as
18 well and detained?
19 A. No. When from the Main Staff they offered that civilians be
20 handed over, because we were accused of holding civilians over the radio,
21 we offered people the chance of going outside, of leaving. Nobody wanted
22 to leave. Even a woman who gave birth the very next day refused to leave.
23 Perhaps somebody will be able to explain this to you more closely,
24 but I didn't hide this at all. I stated how the matter was straight away.
25 And my decision to change into other clothing was not because of --
1 because I wanted to mask the fact that I was a soldier. Everybody knew
2 that I was a member of the army.
3 Q. Well, you confirmed that you changed your clothes and put on
4 civilian clothing. You also said that that was because you were bleeding.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you said, not without pride - and I respect your pride there -
7 that upon arrival in the Kamena building or the MUP building, that you
8 said straight away that you were a member of the BH army, which some other
9 people didn't do and kept quiet about it. Is that right?
10 A. Well, I don't know about the others. There were no others there
11 then. There were no other men there. And it was pointless for me not to
12 state that, because the young man who had been taken prisoner during the
13 conflicts a few days before that, and he had a scar on his face, although
14 I didn't know who he was, I think he was arrested, and there was a
15 discussion about these exchanges and the conflicts and so on, and I had
16 already been accommodated over there. He recognised me, so he knew I was
17 a member of the BH army, as did Bozo Pavlovic later on.
18 Q. You said yesterday that the first individual whom you met when you
19 arrived in the MUP building was Tihomir Kragulj?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You said that you had had a cup of coffee with him a few days
22 before that. That's what you say on the transcript page 41, lines 14 to
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, as this man Kragulj met you and, according to what you told
1 us, he said, "Your time is up, Secretary." So you couldn't have kept it
2 quiet about your being a BH army member, because this man Kragulj knew
4 A. Well, that's right. And I didn't try either.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I did not want to keep it quiet. I said I was a member of the
7 army before that, the BH army, before I went out and saw Tihomir there.
8 The first person I recognised was Tihomir Kragulj.
9 Q. And you said that in the MUP building you were interrogated by
10 Marin Jurica's brother, whose name is Davor, or something like that. And
11 he was a member of the civilian police force, was he, or don't you know?
12 A. I don't know what he was at that time but I think he was an
13 investigator or an interrogator before the war as well.
14 Q. After Mostar, that is to say after you spent some time in Mostar
15 -- tell us how far Ljubuski is away from Mostar.
16 A. I really don't know.
17 Q. Roughly.
18 A. Well, perhaps some 30 or 40 kilometres.
19 Q. Yes, I agree with that assessment. I know very well what the
20 distance is, but you said that it took you an hour or two to get there,
21 and that's on page 46 of the transcript, lines 11 to 12. Can you tell us
22 why this journey of 30 or so kilometres lasted an hour or two?
23 A. Well, we drove in a column, and perhaps I didn't make the right
24 assessment. We didn't stop off along the way anywhere.
25 Q. All right. Thank you. You said that in front of the military
1 investigative prison in Ljubuski, you saw a line of soldiers in black
2 uniforms. I'm quoting.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did these soldiers have any insignia?
5 A. I wouldn't be able to say. One of them ordered us to stand up
6 against the wall and to spread our arms and legs apart, so --
7 Q. But you're sure that the uniforms were black?
8 A. Yes, some of the uniforms. They were mixed uniforms. I get sick
9 from black uniforms.
10 Q. Yesterday, on page 47, line 15 to 17, of the transcript, you said
11 that in prison in Ljubuski there were truck drivers from Bosnia who were
12 not imprisoned but were free there.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did you mean by that, they were free?
15 A. That means that somewhere in another building but also in that
16 building where we were but at another room, they spent the night there,
17 and during daytime they could move about the town.
18 Q. Uh-huh. Did you see these people?
19 A. Yes, and I talked to one of them.
20 Q. Do you know what their ethnic background was?
21 A. They were Muslims, Bosniaks.
22 Q. When you spoke to some of them, were you able to establish how old
23 they were?
24 A. No. I was referring to the man whom I saw there, whom I knew
25 before the war from Tuzla. He also didn't know.
1 Q. What was his age, roughly?
2 A. 45 to 50. His name is Mirsad. I don't know his last name. In
3 Tuzla, he was director of Univerzalpromet. I used to work with him.
4 Q. So he was of an age group which normally is considered fit to
5 serve in the army.
6 A. Yes. He told me that they had gone to buy some supplies. His
7 company deals with publishing mostly, so they needed whatever was needed
8 for bookshops and publishing company, and they went to get supplies and
9 then got stuck there.
10 Q. So he was fit to serve in the army, he was a Muslim, and he was
11 there. He was detained but not imprisoned; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You said in your statements and yesterday when giving evidence
14 that the status of female inmates in Ljubuski was a decent one due to
15 correct conduct of Santic and Prlic.
16 A. Yes. You just helped me. For years I couldn't remember his first
17 name, Santic's first name.
18 Q. How did you acquire this information about the different status of
19 male inmates?
20 A. I said that yesterday. Once they allowed me to take cigarettes to
21 them, and some extra food that was left from lunch.
22 Q. And where did you get cigarettes?
23 A. I gave those people from Bosnia -- I asked them to get cigarettes
24 for me.
25 Q. All right. So because they were able to go into town, they were
1 able to get cigarettes for you. Did they have to go through some checks
2 upon return? Were they searched?
3 A. Well -- but I asked the commander prior to that for permission to
4 buy cigarettes.
5 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the usher's
6 assistance. Document 5D01002.
7 Q. Ms. Drljevic, can you read this document? This is the order of
8 the Stjepan Radic Brigade, headquartered in Ljubuski, whereby the military
9 police is ordered to take certain steps concerning the treatment of
10 inmates in prison in Ljubuski. It is stated that all prisoners, male and
11 female, have the same status while in detention. And item 5 says that
12 they need to be treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.
13 Ms. Drljevic, this was on the 18th of May, 1993. So it is quite
14 clear that this order pertained to you as well. I'm interested in item 4,
15 whether it pertains to the journalists who had come from Vranica. Were
16 there any other journalists there?
17 A. Well, most likely it pertains to journalists from Vranica.
18 Q. There were not any other journalists there?
19 A. I'm not aware of that.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I also offer this
22 document into evidence.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This
25 will be in English. [In English] 5D01002. [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, how much time do you
2 need? Because after you we'll have Mr. Ibrisimovic, then we'll have
3 additional questions by the Prosecution, possibly questions by the Judges.
4 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Mr. President. I will
5 not conclude within half an hour, that's for sure.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, if you need
7 another half hour, the witness will have to come back tomorrow.
8 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] I will leave it up to the Chamber to
9 rule on this. I have a number of questions pertaining to the conditions
10 in Ljubuski and Heliodrom.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. Well, put your questions
12 if you deem them relevant.
13 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Ms. Drljevic, you said that you arrived in Ljubuski with your
15 bleeding still in progress and that Dr. Suko treated you. What kind of
16 medical assistance were you able to get there in Ljubuski? Were you able
17 to ask for treatment? Were you able to go to the infirmary?
18 A. I didn't ask for any treatment.
19 Q. Do you know whether you would have been assisted had you asked for
21 A. Most likely, yes.
22 Q. On page 53 and 54 of the transcript, you said that in Ljubuski you
23 were registered by the ICRC after 10 days -- 10 days after your arrival,
24 which would have been the 23rd, 24th.
25 A. No, on the 25th. And you can see that in the certificate.
1 Q. You mentioned several times that the representatives of the
2 International Red Cross encountered problems in entering the prison. So
3 could we please see document 5D01001.
4 Do you see the document?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So this is an order of the commander of the operation zone,
7 Mr. Lasic, approving -- approving it for the International Red Cross to
8 once again visit prisons, including those in Ljubuski.
9 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I ask that this
10 document be admitted into evidence as well.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This
13 will be Exhibit [In English] 5D01001. Thank you.
14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll try to accelerate
15 the pace and abbreviate as much as possible. I'm sure that Ms. Drljevic
16 is quite tired too.
17 Q. Ms. Drljevic, we now turn to Heliodrom. In your statements, you
18 mentioned that you and other inmates were asked to look at the list of
19 prisoners and to circle the names of the army members.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that how it was?
22 A. Yes. When interrogated by a person who introduced himself and who
23 had an ID with a photograph, the one that is attached but not the one that
24 is opened. The name stated on that ID was Josip Vrdoljak. I don't know
25 whether that was the real name of that person or not.
1 Q. Can it be concluded, based on that, that the members of the BH
2 army could not be distinguished based on their uniforms, because all of
3 them had changed into civilian clothing?
4 A. I'm referring to September.
5 Q. To Heliodrom.
6 A. And I came to Heliodrom in June, and you're now speaking of
7 September. Everybody who was there was there in civilian clothes. Those
8 who wore uniforms are missing, and nobody said anything about their fate.
9 Q. All right. This wasn't clear, but we don't have enough time to go
10 into that today.
11 On page 17, line 18 to 20, of the transcript, you said that the
12 ICRC was allowed to enter Heliodrom only in September of 1993.
13 A. In August.
14 Q. All right. In August. You weren't there in May, but you said
15 explicitly that this had been confirmed to you by a person who was there
16 from the 10th of May but wasn't registered until August.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Based on which you concluded that the ICRC did not go to Heliodrom
19 before August at all.
20 A. Since this person spent some time in solitary confinement, it is
21 possible, but starting from the 8th of June and for the following two
22 months there were no visits of the Red Cross. I cited the example of that
23 person who was brought there in May but wasn't registered until August.
24 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see document 5D01004.
25 Q. Can you see this document, Ms. Drljevic? This is a letter from
1 Mr. Darinko Tadic.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Sent to the International Red Cross in Split, whereby he informs
4 them that, due to security reasons, some 1.500 persons, mostly Muslims,
5 were put in Heliodrom near Mostar. This document is dated 10th of May,
7 Is it possible that the person you spoke to wasn't registered and
8 that the Red Cross was denied access there? So is it possible, is it
9 plausible when the HVO itself appealed to them to receive various
10 supplies, including blankets and so on?
11 A. That person was not registered, that's for certain. I don't know
12 why. Maybe the Red Cross didn't want to go there. What is peculiar is
13 this phrase here, "due to security reasons."
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I tender this document
16 into evidence as well, and I will reduce my questions to just two more.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm not sure if it's a translation
19 issue or perhaps from the document, but we can't see any indications on
20 the document that it's actually dated 10 May, 1993, at least on the
21 English translation. My learned colleague, on line 10, indicates it's
22 dated the 10th of May. I don't seem to see that, at least on the document
23 as it's currently visible.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell us on what basis
25 you can say that the date is the 10th of May.
1 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the Croatian
2 original, in the upper right corner it says the 10th of May. Now, whether
3 this is fully reliable or not, that's hard to say.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed. I note that in the
5 Croatian document I can see 10/05/93.
6 Please proceed. You have another two questions. First the
7 number, right. Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. [In
9 English] 5D01004.
10 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Just two
11 more outstanding questions.
12 Q. Ms. Drljevic, when speaking of medical treatment at Heliodrom, you
13 mentioned Necko Hadzic, Mirsad Stranjak, as physicians, and also a male
14 nurse called Corojevic.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You also spoke of being taken to the military clinic to receive IV
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The doctors you mentioned, maybe you know them personally or maybe
20 you can conclude that based on their names; what is their ethnicity?
21 A. They're Bosniaks.
22 Q. Tell us, please, how was medical care organised at Heliodrom?
23 A. Occasionally a doctor would come if some of us had complaints
24 about not feeling well. Or when I had this problem with my back, for
25 example, they came. When called, they came immediately. Perhaps some
1 other people might have a different opinion, but my experience is that the
2 doctors and medical staff treated women very properly.
3 Q. Thank you. My final question: I don't think we need to go into
4 private session. You spoke today of your own health problems which led
5 you to have amnesia and so on. Can you tell us, what were the reasons for
7 A. I suppose that that was in September and October of 1993. October
8 of 1993. I'm now trying to remember this. The fact that I was taken away
9 caused me to suffer terrible stress, and the weapons too. Let me tell you
10 this: I wasn't afraid at Vranica. You knew you could get killed when
11 people were shooting, but in this other situation, when there were other
12 women there, that was quite a stress.
13 Q. My last question: Can we, based on that, conclude that your
14 testimony and your claims about all of the events after September and
15 October should be treated with a lot of reservation in view of your health
17 A. Well, I don't think so. I talked to doctors about this,
18 especially with Dr. Hrvic, who is a forensic expert and has been to The
19 Hague to testify. I also spoke to Dr. Curic and Dr. Kovacevic.
20 Q. Dr. Mehmed Kovacevic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Dr. Mehmed Kovacevic was also detained somewhere.
23 A. Yes, in Dretelj, and he got diabetes there.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Ibrisimovic, you have the floor.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I don't
4 know what the schedule is now, because the witness is tired, but I don't
5 have many questions for the witness, and I think that the time remaining
6 should be sufficient for me.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Drljevic, I only have a few questions. I
9 believe you are tired. I won't go into detail. My questions have to do
10 with what you said about the 8th of June, 1993, yesterday.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the question.
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. On page 61 of the transcript, you said that you then saw
14 Mr. Marcinko.
15 A. Yes, Marcinko.
16 Q. And you said, "I knew that he was a high-ranking officer in the
17 military police"; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. Obviously the military and the civilian authorities were
19 intertwined. I really don't know exactly which authority was concerned,
20 but I think it was the military police.
21 Q. You said he was at the school of mechanical engineering.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you said that Mr. Marcinko told you you were going to the
24 Heliodrom; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. You then spoke to Mr. Pusca [as interpreted].
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us where you spoke to Mr. Pusic?
4 A. In the room that we were in.
5 Q. You and Mr. Pusic spoke about your relatives, about some common
6 friends, acquaintances, and I believe that this was an informal
7 conversation; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. He also said that the reason for being moved there was that
9 we should soon be released and sent home. It had been decided that
10 everyone should be placed in the vicinity of their homes.
11 Q. So this wasn't an official conversation that you had between you
12 and Mr. Pusic?
13 A. You're correct. I don't really know what capacity he was there
14 in, but he wasn't part of that brigade that had issued prohibition on
15 communication. He had probably come there officially. But it's quite
16 obvious that the conversation was a private one.
17 Q. According to the tone used or mentioned, you could say that he was
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For the sake of the transcript, it doesn't say that Mr. Pusic
21 greeted you on behalf of your family, on behalf of a relative of yours.
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just wanted to
24 clarify these circumstances surrounding the conversation that the witness
25 had with Mr. Pusic on the 8th of June. I have no further questions for
1 this witness.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have no further
4 Mr. Mundis, do you have additional questions, re-examination?
5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I said possibly, possibly.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no
8 further questions for the witness.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I know that it's
10 very tiring to testify for two days. I personally will only have a few
11 brief questions that are directly connected to your statement of yesterday
12 and today.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yesterday you were asked by the
15 Prosecutor to describe the armed forces present in Mostar, and you stated
16 that there was the Spanish Battalion, the HVO, and the ABiH, and I believe
17 I understood that you said that there was also the Croatian army. Could
18 you be more specific on this? Is it possible that there were parts of the
19 Croatian army present in Mostar?
20 A. I think that that concerns the people I went to see in front of
21 the pensioner's hotel, which is now called Hotel Ero. There were a lot of
22 people who were speaking in this Dalmatian accent, which isn't an accent
23 that you hear in our area, not even in Western Herzegovina. I didn't see
24 any insignia on them, but I also based this conclusion on the testimony of
25 other women, on the basis of what other women said who went to work. They
1 said that -- well, they knew which buildings the units from the Tigers and
2 Thunder were from -- were in, and on the 15th of July I saw some identity
3 cards of members of the Croatian army from Split and Osijek, members who
4 had been killed. I saw that later on. But an old woman and her
5 daughter-in-law later told me something that happened on the 13th of July,
6 1992. She said that a large number of members of the Croatian army from
7 Split and Osijek died in that area. There is a chapel located in that
8 area now.
9 As far as the people who had set off from the direction of the
10 stadium, the Velez stadium, are concerned, I can't really say where they
11 came from. Perhaps from Croatia, but perhaps from Western Herzegovina.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you have a Croat from Croatia
13 and a Croat from Bosnia and Herzegovina, can you make a distinction as to
14 their accents?
15 A. To large extent. To a large extent it's possible to make such a
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I want to understand you well.
18 So if you have a Croat from Zagreb, he will speak differently from a Croat
19 from Croatia but who is in Bosnia and Herzegovina? You can hear the
20 difference, can you?
21 A. It's now a little more difficult to make such a distinction, but
22 at the time it was easy since everyone is now trying to speak a very pure
23 Croatian language. Those who were born in Mostar now have a sort of mixed
24 accent, but it's nevertheless possible to recognise a Zagreb accent and a
25 Mostar Zagrebian accent.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that in Heliodrom
2 you were in a room in the attic or under the roof and that on the first
3 floor there was a partition or a -- between the people -- the HVO people
4 who were detained, that they were in one part, and in the other part there
5 were people from Mostar. You said that very quickly. This is the reason
6 why I'd like to sort of have further information of this.
7 You said that the deputy commander of the Ljubuski prison,
8 Mr. Santic, had been brought there. So I asked myself, was he detained as
9 well and, if so, why, or did he just pay a visit to Heliodrom? Could you
10 be more specific on this.
11 A. Well, first of all, I knew about this because it's something I had
12 heard from people who were there. There were two or three individuals who
13 were free in a certain sense. They were prisoners, but they weren't kept
14 in cells. So then I asked them, and they answered the question. Later on
15 I heard from the men that they would sometimes let them out. When you go
16 up onto the floor, there were people from Mostar on one side, mostly from
17 Mostar, and there were some people from Mostar in half of the -- on the
18 ground floor --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I understood all
20 that. I wanted to know from you whether the deputy commander of the
21 Ljubuski prison was detained, imprisoned in Heliodrom.
22 A. He personally said that that was the case, and the guard
23 Marjanovic also told me that that was the case. I've --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you know why he was detained?
25 A. Well, because -- well, I asked him before he was released. He
1 spent seven days there, I think. On one occasion he came and asked me
2 whether I needed anything. He brought some cigarettes and some fruit. I
3 really didn't know that man from before, and I never saw him after that
5 And then the guard Marjanovic grew angry. I asked him not to come
6 again. As a result, I knew that he was an officer. He said that two
7 prisoners had escaped, had managed to escape from him, and that is why he
8 had been imprisoned for seven or eight days.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I asked you why he had been in
10 prison, why he had been detained.
11 A. Because two of his prisoners in Ljubuski had escaped.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 A. He was then imprisoned in the Heliodrom.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today, when speaking of the
15 people detained in Heliodrom, you mentioned names, you gave their ages,
16 and at a different point in time you mentioned a lady who was with her two
17 children, and you said that when the Red Cross came, this woman and her
18 two children were taken somewhere - I don't know where - and that they
19 came back. Do you remember exactly that situation of a mother with two
20 children who would have left Heliodrom because of the Red Cross coming and
21 that they would have come back later? Could you be more precise on this?
22 A. Yes. It wasn't a mother. It was Nena and her two grandchildren.
23 When she returned, they said they had moved her to a house. It was this
24 grandmother and they then took her to a different house. I found out
25 about that when leaving the camp. They weren't registered, they're not on
1 that list, on the Red Cross's list.
2 And there were also two women with two daughters. One was a young
3 girl, 17 or 18 years old -- I don't really know how old she was. And the
4 other girl was only 9 years old. And then there was the son Narcis. He
5 was 15 or 16 years old. He was in the male part of the prison. I don't
6 know whether he was released in December or in March, 1994.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Last question: In the afternoon
8 you mentioned that apparently a film was made, and I say it your language;
9 "Grbavica," and you said that following this you were under pressure.
10 You were put under pressure. What did you mean? Did they make a film of
11 the events? Did you -- what facts do you remember in regard to this
12 movie named Grbavica?
13 A. This was a film that was shown at the festival in Berlin and
14 received some sort of prize. It is about a woman -- it is about a woman
15 who was raped and she got pregnant as a result, and this is something that
16 affected me a lot because it was always a short of threat that I felt.
17 Luckily, I didn't have such an experience, but I do react to such things
18 in this way. Therapy helps, but it's also obvious that fatigue
19 contributes to my state. I mentioned Grbavica because it brings
20 everything back. My doctor says this is a flashback, and I have these
21 images that return to me occasionally.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak. You wanted to
23 say something?
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The film received the Golden
25 Bear in Berlin, and acts of rape committed by the Serbs in Central Bosnia
1 were filmed.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave, I think that that
3 makes no difference. The woman is raped. A woman is also a human being,
4 and it doesn't matter what her name is.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Following
6 the questions by the Judges, do you have any further questions,
7 Mr. Mundis?
8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, my understanding is that the practice
9 would be for us to be entitled to go last, following any follow-up
10 questions from the Defence.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you please. Any questions by
12 the Defence counsel following my questions? No, there isn't.
13 Very well. You have completed your testimony. Thank you for
14 testifying for two days and answering questions by the Prosecution, by all
15 the Defence counsel, and me. Thank you for coming to testify. I shall
16 ask the usher to take you back to your room outside this courtroom.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll have another
19 witness tomorrow. I remind you of the fact that the Prosecution spent 282
20 minutes, the Defence 253 minutes, the Judges 14 minutes.
21 Mr. Mundis, what about your witness today? What do you have to
23 THE INTERPRETER: Tomorrow, interpreter's correction.
24 MR. MUNDIS: We fully expect to have the witness that's on the
25 schedule for tomorrow morning here and available, commencing at 9.00.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: May I ask how long they intend to take on the
3 direct examination, just so we can plan ahead, Your Honour?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. This was my question, the
5 question nagging me.
6 Mr. Mundis, for the Defence to usefully prepare their
7 cross-examination, tell us how long you will take.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, my recollection is that the 65 ter
9 estimate for the witness is four and a half hours. My colleague Mr. Scott
10 will actually be conducting the direct examination. He informs me that
11 he's hopeful he can do it in four hours. Given that tomorrow is a
12 six-hour day and then a normal merely four-hour day on Friday, we would
13 hope that we can finish this witness by the end of the week and that he
14 wouldn't have to then stay over until Monday afternoon.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excellent. Four hours for the
16 Prosecution, and you will have the end of tomorrow's hearing and Friday
17 morning until quarter to two. This is for all the Defence counsel. I
18 know it's not easy at all to coordinate your work among yourselves,
19 because sometimes you have to ask the same questions or similar questions.
20 Again, this happened today, about this labour contract. But I think that
21 as time goes by everybody is going to improve on their performance when it
22 comes to putting questions, and this will be very useful for everybody.
23 Thank you very much.
24 Thank you, Mr. Praljak, for this information you gave us. Let us
25 convene again tomorrow morning at 9.00.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.53 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day
3 of May, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.