1 Tuesday, 9 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Case

9 number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could please everybody -- can we

11 start with the appearances and then we will proceed with the hearing

12 today.

13 Mr. Mundis, we calculated the time and we came up with the figure

14 of 176 minutes, which means that you have another hour. You have up until

15 10.05. Please go ahead.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Did you want the

17 appearances for the record?

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. That won't be necessary

19 because I see that we have the same faces in the courtroom.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

21 WITNESS: EDWARD VULLIAMY [Resumed]

22 Examination by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. Yesterday we ended in the evening, we were discussing the Ljubuski

1 camp. I would ask now, Mr. President, with the assistance of e-court that

2 the witness be shown what's been marked as P 9019.

3 Mr. Vulliamy, do you see some images in front of you on the

4 screen?

5 A. Yes; two photographs.

6 Q. Okay. Do you recognise what you see on the screen? Let me --

7 just a moment, let me get to the right --

8 A. Not immediately, no.

9 Q. I apologise for that, sir. Let me get to the right page. We are

10 looking for the last four digits on the ERN number 2976, which I believe

11 is about page 5. My apologies.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: For the record, it's Dretelj, not Ljubuski, as

13 Daryl Mundis had indicated. I believe he misspoke.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry, yes.

15 Q. Do you see an image now in front of you, Mr. Vulliamy?

16 A. Yes; the two photographs.

17 Q. Do you recognise what you see in those photographs?

18 A. Yes. I recognise it. Twice I have seen these photographs before,

19 and the thing that makes me identify this immediately as Dretelj is in the

20 top left-hand corner you can see the two hangars going into the sort of

21 mound in the hillside, which makes it to me easily recognisable as

22 Dretelj. I also recognise the shed in the middle of the picture as being

23 the one we went into where the bags were hanging from the ceiling.

24 Q. Perhaps with the assistance of the registrar we could take the top

25 photo full screen.

1 Now, sir, you indicated that you recognised the tunnel. Perhaps

2 with the assistance of the usher if we could use the smart board, I would

3 ask that you -- the usher will assist you -- if you could please mark what

4 you were referring to as the tunnel. And I believe we will be using red

5 for the Prosecution.

6 A. Pardon me, what am I marking?

7 Q. If you could mark what you currently -- or previously indicated as

8 the tunnel or tunnels.

9 A. Yes. Here they are. There is one here, and the other one is

10 actually behind these trees, the entrance about there, so sort of here,

11 and this is an open space in between them. The doors would be there and

12 there.

13 Q. Okay. Sir, if you could, please, for the record, if you could

14 perhaps mark that -- those lines that you've indicated with T for

15 "tunnel."

16 Now, sir, you've also indicated one of the hangars that you spoke

17 about yesterday. Can you please mark that, or circle that building.

18 A. That's the one I referred to as being the one with the plastic

19 bags hanging, with the men on the ground. That's there.

20 Q. Okay. And can you please place an H next to that, for "hanger."

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Thank you, sir. Now if you could, please, in the bottom

23 right-hand corner place today's date, which is the 9th of May 2006.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And please initial that or place your name on the document.

1 A. [Marks].

2 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that that be captured and given an In

3 Court identification number, please.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar?

5 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit will be tendered as IC 00003, Your

6 Honour.

7 MR. MUNDIS:

8 Q. Now, Mr. Vulliamy, yesterday -- this is captured on page 100 of

9 the transcript, at lines 14 and 15 -- you indicated, "... we came back

10 down the gentle slope from the tunnels, there was a mealtime going on ...

11 where some grass is on a corner." Again, this is page 100, lines 14 and

12 15. In this photograph, do you see this area where this mealtime was

13 going on, where some grass is on a corner?

14 A. I can -- I think it's about here. I don't know if everyone can

15 see where I'm pointing. As you come down from the tunnels, it's just on

16 the left. There is this junction.

17 Q. Perhaps it might be easier if we could go now to one of the other

18 photographs. It might be more visible on one of the other photographs.

19 A. I can attempt to mark it here, if the Bench would like me to.

20 Q. I think we need to go, for technical reasons, actually, to another

21 photograph or a clean version of this one. My apologies for that. Okay.

22 Now, if you see that area where you observed the mealtime?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it easier to see on this photograph?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Perhaps with the assistance of the usher, if you could mark the

2 area.

3 A. It's within this area here, with a cooking facility somewhere and,

4 as I recall, the men were crouching in -- within the area of that circle.

5 Q. I would ask again, for the record, that you place an E inside the

6 circle, E for "eating."

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And again, sir, if you could please date and initial the bottom of

9 this photograph.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. We would again ask, Mr. President, that this image be captured and

12 that it be given --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar?

14 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit will be tendered and admitted under

15 the reference IC 00004.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17 Q. I would now ask, with the assistance of the Registry, that the

18 witness be shown a bundle of photographs via e-court that's marked as

19 9104. And the first image I would like to be shown to the witness is

20 photograph number 16, which is ERN 01145482-16. Looking for number 16,

21 the last two digits being numbers 16. Mr. Vulliamy, do you recognise the

22 image that's in front of you at --

23 A. Yes, I certainly do.

24 Q. Can you describe for us what that is?

25 A. That will be one of the two tunnels. I think probably the one on

1 the right as we looked at the photograph before. When I saw it, the door

2 was open, but that is one of the two tunnels.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. Could you please again date and place your

4 initials on the lower right-hand corner.

5 A. [Marks].

6 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President I ask that that be give an In

7 Court identification or an In Court exhibit --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. This exhibit will be tendered and

10 admitted under the reference IC 00005.

11 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please within the same marked Prosecution

12 number go to the photograph bearing number 01145483, number 16. Again,

13 the number I'm looking for is 01145483-16. Perhaps, Mr. President, for

14 the sake of expediency, I could show the witness a hard copy of this

15 photograph, which we do have.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that that would be

17 more practical.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Again, sorry to make the usher run about, but if we

19 can give the witness a red marker.

20 Q. Okay. Mr. Vulliamy, do you see now a photograph on the ELMO next

21 to you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Can you please describe for us what you can observe in that

24 photograph.

25 A. Two buildings running along one of two pathways.

1 Q. Do you recognise either or both of those buildings?

2 A. I don't recognise them specifically, but I know where they are,

3 and I -- I know that I've walked past them but I don't recognise them from

4 this particular view necessarily.

5 Q. Okay. I'd ask, again with the assistance -- I'll have that

6 photograph retrieved, please, and I have another photograph to show the

7 witness. This one comes from the same bundle, bearing ERN number

8 01145483, number 11.

9 Do you recognise the buildings in this photograph, sir?

10 A. Yes. This is the path, moving from left to right, along which you

11 come from the entrance to Dretelj towards the sheds that -- the shed I

12 marked on the first photograph --

13 Q. Okay. Let me --

14 A. -- end of which is on the far right.

15 Q. Let me just interrupt you there, sir, because again we need to

16 mark this photograph. When you say, "This is the path, moving from left

17 to right, along which you come from the entrance to Dretelj towards the

18 sheds," could you please mark that.

19 A. Yes. The entrance is over there, and the walk towards the sheds

20 is along the line of that arrow, and there are buildings here into which

21 we also went.

22 Q. Do you recognise any of the buildings that are visible in this

23 photograph?

24 A. I recognise the one on the far right. This one for sure. That's

25 the shed which I'm referring to as the one with the plastic bags hanging

1 for convenience. And somewhere along here, although I'm not going to be

2 certain as to which one it is, will be what I called the medical facility,

3 and I think, but I can't be absolutely certain, it's that one.

4 Q. Okay. I would ask, sir, first of all if you could indicate by

5 marking with a letter S the shed that you referred to, the one with the

6 hanging plastic bags.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And you told us that you were unsure which of the buildings were

9 the medical facility. Can you mark the building or buildings that you

10 believed were the medical facility.

11 A. Yes. The reason I'm unsure is I'm not sure which one it is. All

12 I know is that it was on the left before you got to the shed, so it will

13 be either that one or that one, and I think it's that one but I wouldn't

14 want to be certain as to that. I -- the -- we had a different view of it.

15 Q. Okay. I would ask you, sir, if you could mark inside the circles

16 that you placed on these two buildings M1 for the building that you think

17 was the medical facility, and M2 for the other building which might have

18 been the medical facility.

19 A. [Marks].

20 Q. Thank you. Again with the assistance -- I'll have that photograph

21 returned. I have one more photograph. Please, sorry, if you could have

22 the witness date and sign that photograph, please.

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. And I have one last photograph I'd like to show the witness. This

25 one from the same bundle, P 9107, bearing ERN number 01145483-25.

1 Sir, do you recognise that building?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us what that building is, please.

4 A. That is the shed I referred to in which the women were kept on the

5 first visit and the men crouched on the ground with the plastic bags on

6 the second visit.

7 Q. Can you please again on this building, somewhere on the building,

8 mark with an S for "shed."

9 A. [Marks].

10 Q. And please, again, initial or sign and date this photograph.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Thank you. Let me now ask you, sir --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to assign a number to

14 this exhibit. Mr. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 01045483-11

16 is tendered and admitted under reference IC 00006.

17 The second document, bearing ERN number 01 -- sorry: 01145483-25

18 will be tendered and admitted under the reference IC 00007. Thank you,

19 Your Honour.

20 MR. MUNDIS:

21 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, before moving to our next subject, I'd just like you

22 to explain or tell the Trial Chamber approximately what time you left

23 Dretelj on this occasion.

24 A. I think it would have been about mid- -- mid- to late afternoon,

25 still during daylight.

1 Q. Can you tell us -- tell the Trial Chamber where you went and what

2 if anything happened as you were departing Dretelj.

3 A. Yes. Quite shaken, because it had been a distressing afternoon,

4 we drove towards Medjugorje and a car drove at us from some speed from

5 behind and sideswiped my car. It wasn't a hard knock, hard enough to

6 knock me off the road, but it was a -- "collision" is too strong a word.

7 It was what we call a sideswipe, and the car then sped off ahead of us.

8 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what reporting activities you undertook the

9 following day.

10 A. I'm pretty sure it was the following day; if not, the day after

11 that. We were endeavouring now to get into East Mostar but we -- at the

12 hotel in Medjugorje, word went round that there was to be a press

13 conference on the camps and on Dretelj by authorities from Herceg-Bosna,

14 and that would be held in Medjugorje, so we stayed for that.

15 Q. Do you recall, sir, the approximate date that this press

16 conference took place?

17 A. 8th -- 7th or 8th of September, something like that. 8th of

18 September --

19 Q. And again the year?

20 A. -- or 9th, possibly.

21 Q. The year?

22 A. 1993.

23 Q. Do you recall or can you remember who it was that spoke at this

24 press conference?

25 A. I can only remember two names, and it was certainly a bit strange

1 that some -- that these authorities were suddenly coming to us. I think

2 it was laid on in Medjugorje for the benefit of the press because that's

3 where they were based. The names were Kresimir Zubak, who, as I recall,

4 chaired the meeting or spoke first, and the other one was Mr. Pusic. I

5 think his first name was Branislav.

6 Q. Can you recall what was discussed at this press conference?

7 A. Yes. What was discussed was the camp that we had been into in

8 Dretelj the previous day specifically. More generally, the other two

9 camps, at Gabela and Rodoc. And most of the conversation was about that.

10 And the speakers also wanted to draw attention to camps in which Croatians

11 were being held, Bosnian Croats were being held, by the government side,

12 and I don't recall whether they talked about camps on the Serbian side or

13 not.

14 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Vulliamy, any of the discussions concerning

15 Dretelj or what you were told about Dretelj?

16 A. Yes, I do. And there were slightly conflicting views coming from

17 this panel because Mr. Zubak conceded that there had been breaches of

18 international standards in Dretelj [Microphone not activated] and excused

19 this, or at least he explained it by the -- by reference to the speed with

20 which the inmates had had to be interned and he implied that this was for

21 security reasons, and blamed it in a way that I was fairly used to by now

22 on the actions of irresponsible individuals rather than matter of policy.

23 The breaches, I mean.

24 Q. And Mr. Vulliamy, what do you mean by "in a way that I was fairly

25 used to by now"?

1 A. Well, one had had many conversations since the war in Croatia with

2 leadership blaming apparent atrocities on rogue elements or irresponsible

3 individuals. It was the way in which Dr. Karadzic and the Bosnian Serbs

4 talked about the atrocities in Omarska and Trnopolje. It was the way in

5 which the Serbs would talk about atrocities in Vukovar. It was a language

6 I'd become fairly used to, that when these things were happening they

7 would blame it on a rogue element.

8 Q. At the time of this press conference in September, 1993,

9 Mr. Vulliamy, did you know who Mr. Zubak was?

10 A. I'd heard his name, and as I recall he was introduced as the

11 vice-president or the deputy president of the HVO, but I wasn't sure what

12 that meant. I've followed his name since, yes, in politics but at the

13 time I wasn't sure exactly who he was.

14 Q. And, sir, at that point in time, in September, 1993, did you know

15 who the other person that you've identified as Mr. Pusic was?

16 A. He introduced himself. I hadn't heard of him but he introduced

17 himself or was introduced as the person in charge of prisoner exchange.

18 Q. Do you remember anything that Mr. Pusic said at this press

19 conference?

20 A. Yes. He -- he implicitly disputed what Mr. Zubak had said. He

21 implied or said outright -- I think he did say outright that the

22 conditions in Dretelj did meet international standards and were within the

23 Geneva Conventions, and made a remark that I made a note of and remember,

24 that if the tunnels were good enough for the JNA soldiers - that's the

25 former Yugoslav army soldiers - it was good enough for the Muslim

1 prisoners. And I thought that remark was inappropriate given what we had

2 seen and were still fairly shocked by the previous day.

3 Q. Now, sir, you've also mentioned in this context that Gabela and

4 Rodoc were discussed at this press conference. Did you on any occasion

5 visit either of those two locations?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Let me turn your attention, then, to where you went after this

8 press conference and what events you reported on.

9 A. East Mostar, which was, in a way, the -- the -- the aim was to get

10 into East Mostar.

11 Q. And, sir, did you in fact obtain access to East Mostar?

12 A. Yes. I did. And I think that was the next day, which would be

13 September 9th or 10th.

14 Q. And can you tell us a little bit about how it was that you were

15 able to gain access to East Mostar on that day.

16 A. Yes. The Spanish UN forces had actually abandoned their base in

17 the city, in the east side of the city, way back in May, but they were

18 running daily patrols or every other day patrols into the city in APC

19 armoured vehicles which were taking passengers, and I think they were

20 escorting aid as well, but if you arranged it, you could get a ride with

21 them into the enclave, and that's how I got in.

22 Q. Were there other reporters that went in with you at this

23 particular time?

24 A. Yes. I went with one colleague, and I don't recall how many

25 others there were in the APC.

1 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what you observed

2 when you entered East Mostar on or about 9 or 10 September, 1993.

3 A. Extensive damage immediately visible to the south, as you came

4 into the -- into the pocket and crossed the lines. And the no man's land,

5 which I recall was some sort of air facility. Through a place called

6 Blagaj, which I had heard about, and there were signs of a few people in

7 these gutted out houses but we drove past them into the main bit at the

8 east of the city and we just got out of the APC. The destruction was bad,

9 and the shooting was regular. Shelling was regular. And within about an

10 hour, I was as frightened as I'd ever been at any stage in this war or any

11 other. It was a terrifying place.

12 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, can you please describe the living conditions that

13 you observed to the Trial Chamber.

14 A. Well, this is over the course of this day and the next one.

15 People were for the most part or as much as they could living in cellars

16 underground. Where they were above ground, which most were by necessity,

17 they were cowering in the flats or houses where they lived or were

18 staying. East Mostar was basically one main street with side streets

19 going down towards the river where there was a sight line over to the west

20 side. And people would have to run across these cross streets as the

21 sniper fire - crack, crack, crack - was aimed at them. Some of this main

22 street was so dangerous that they constructed a sort of main street or a

23 bit of it as it were a bypass through houses on the east side of the main

24 street, that is away from the river, and they -- the -- there was a sort

25 of road running through people's houses, and it was -- I mean, it sounds

1 amusing, and it's not, but people had sort of set up little businesses

2 along this main street through houses. So that if there was somebody in

3 the house who was a hairdresser, you could get your hair cut, which I did,

4 actually, and -- but throughout the -- the -- you could hear shooting and

5 you could hear shelling. More regularly than any place I'd been since

6 Vukovar, actually, certainly more regularly than in other places, like

7 Sarajevo. It was pretty continuous. People were visibly -- visibly on

8 edge, nervous, and rightly -- rightly frightened.

9 Q. Sir, I just would like you, if you could, perhaps clarify or

10 expand upon this notion of what you have told us at line 25 of page 14,

11 where you say "this main street through houses." Could you explain that

12 in a little bit more detail?

13 A. I'm sorry, I didn't explain properly before. Part of this main

14 street was so exposed to the western side that it was too -- deemed too

15 dangerous to walk down, and too many people had been killed, either by

16 sniper fire or mortar fire, and so they built -- they sort of -- you left

17 the main street to go along a sort of route, a pedestrian route, behind

18 the houses on the east side of the main street so that the sort of

19 passageway, if you like, for pedestrians to avoid the bit of the main

20 street that was too dangerous, cut through houses, or in some cases the

21 remains of houses, so that -- which were sort of connected up through

22 gardens or destroyed walls, so that you sort of walked through people's

23 properties to avoid the risk of walking down the street, so that the

24 "street" was actually a sort of walkway they had arranged through

25 people's houses so as to avoid exposure to the -- the fusillade coming

1 from the west.

2 Q. Do you know, sir, approximately how many people were in East

3 Mostar at this point in time, September, 1993, when you were in that part

4 of the city?

5 A. Well, I was told that the figure initially, when the pocket was

6 sealed off sometime around the end of May, or June, had been 10.000 but

7 that the numbers had now swelled to about 55.000. And what was so

8 shocking about it and distressing was that the vast majority of those were

9 women and children. So one was able to put together the pattern, really,

10 that had begun back in Capljina that day. In effect, the men had gone to

11 the camps and the women and the children had been herded through this

12 Blagaj place into the east part of Mostar, with elderly people as well,

13 where they were being subjected to this barrage.

14 Q. What places, if any, did you visit during the time that you were

15 in East Mostar in September, 1993?

16 A. Visited the headquarters of the Bosnian army, or what there was of

17 it, and visited the -- it's almost a euphemistic word, but the hospital,

18 the attempt at a hospital.

19 Q. Can you describe for us what you observed in the hospital.

20 A. Yes. It was horrendous. There were people at the ground level,

21 waiting for news or trying to get to see people who -- relatives or family

22 who were wounded down there. Most of the attempt at medical treatment was

23 underground, and very, very basic and very distressing. I remember in

24 particular a girl aged, I think about 11, whose -- half of whose head had

25 been very badly injured. I think one of her limbs had been amputated. By

1 then anaesthetic had arrived but the doctor we spoke to - we spoke to him

2 for a long time - had told us that previously there had been amputations

3 without anaesthetic. He gave a figure of 400 people who'd died in his

4 hospital alone, never mind those on the streets. I don't know if that's

5 accurate or not; that's what he said. Most importantly for the purposes

6 of, I thought at the time, reporting this, the hospital itself had taken

7 several direct hits of artillery and tank fire, despite a red cross being

8 clearly visible on it. He said that one of the -- that there had been

9 considerable damage to the roof of the hospital, and as a result of that,

10 his supply of medicines had been -- had been, if not destroyed, impaired.

11 Don't know why he kept medicine in the roof. Didn't seem perhaps a good

12 idea, but when people would try to go and repair the roof, they were being

13 shot at by snipers. And the -- I suppose the most sort of distressing bit

14 of all was when he offered to show us his makeshift morgue, and I said

15 yes, all right, and went into this morgue, but it wasn't really a morgue.

16 There was no refrigeration, there were no body bags, merely corpses, about

17 ten or a dozen when we went in. It was a terrible place.

18 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, do you remember the name of this hospital, or did it

19 have a name?

20 A. I don't remember the name. I think it had been a hospital but it

21 was an old Habsburg building. I can remember that. I may have written

22 the name, I can't recall it now, I'm afraid. The doctor's name was Dragan

23 Milavic or something of that kind.

24 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, on this occasion, how long did you remain in East

25 Mostar?

1 A. Two or three days.

2 Q. Did you on any subsequent occasion return to East Mostar?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. When was that?

5 A. Late in -- mid- to late February, the following year, 1994.

6 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what events you covered

7 between September, 1993, and February or mid- to late February, 1994.

8 A. For the most part, I was getting the book out and I -- I was

9 covering other events in my -- in my posting. As I recall, I don't think

10 I went to Bosnia between September, 1993, and February, 1994.

11 Q. Can you please tell us, sir, about your return to Bosnia in

12 February, 1994.

13 A. Yes. It was -- it was for the paper. And well, it started off,

14 actually, at the Zagreb airport, flying down to Split, and in the

15 departure lounge was Mate Boban.

16 Q. Did you on that occasion speak to Mr. Boban?

17 A. Yes, I did briefly. I was with a colleague from the Washington

18 Post and we were very anxious to talk to him. Not least because we had

19 been following events in Mostar, or at least I had, obviously, in the

20 press, closely and with interest and despair. The -- I hadn't seen him,

21 of course, since that night when he announced his new presidency of the

22 HDZ, despite subsequent attempts. And I think he recognised me -- and he

23 was cordial and I asked him immediately about Mostar. There was a plan

24 around at the time that I'd been reading, I think -- I think the EU were

25 talking about -- the European Union were talking about dividing the city

1 and I think I asked him about that, and what I remember him saying was,

2 "Mostar will remain one city. It is the capital of Herceg-Bosna." That

3 was all I remember from the conversation. He wasn't anxious to talk, and

4 we boarded into our separate seats and he -- we took -- declined to have a

5 conversation at the other end when we got to Split.

6 Q. And following your arrival in Split, where did you go?

7 A. To Medjugorje, to try to get back into East Mostar.

8 Q. Can you describe for us briefly the steps that you took at that

9 time to get back into East Mostar.

10 A. Yes. By then the UNHCR had organised a sort of armoured -- I mean

11 armoured, not armed -- convoys of aid into the east of the city, under the

12 auspices of a remarkable man called Jerry Hume. It was a sort of -- it

13 was a UNHCR operation but it was a rather heroic one-man operation and

14 that was running out of Medjugorje, and again he was taking passengers.

15 Q. And did you on this occasion return to East Mostar?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And again, sir, to the best of your recollection, can you give us

18 a date or an approximate date - month and year - that were you in East

19 Mostar on this occasion?

20 A. This would be about the 20th or the 21st of February.

21 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what you observed on this

22 occasion when you were in East Mostar.

23 A. Yes. Again, people cowering in cellars, including myself. It was

24 very frightening to be out. The people -- there was an area of flats to

25 the north of the pocket which were pockmarked and shelled and badly

1 damaged, and they called it Beirut, as I recall. A lot of people had come

2 into the centre of the pocket from this so-called Beirut, which I think

3 was at most times of the day cut off from the -- as it were, the downtown

4 area, if that's the right word. So people were in cellars most of the

5 time, but there wasn't enough room. A lot of new arrivals, because the

6 population had swelled more - I don't know by how much; again, mostly

7 women, children and elderly - were into -- they were crowded into a

8 theatre or a cinema or some above-ground location. They were sitting on

9 the stairs, they were hunkered down on the floor. The sniping and the

10 shelling, well, it wasn't continuous but it was as heavy as anything I

11 knew. There was a doctor who I met again for the second time who I had

12 met before who had come down from Sarajevo, and actually it wasn't just I

13 who was making this kind of relative contrast or comparison. He said that

14 compared to Sarajevo, this place was a nightmare. And so we interviewed

15 more of these refugees, deportees, whatever you want to call them, and I

16 also learned, which I hadn't known before, that the government or Muslim

17 side held a sort of promontory of two blocks of territory over on the

18 other side, that's to say the west side, of the river, which amazed me. I

19 should say now that the famous bridge which had been there during my

20 previous visit in September had by now been destroyed, and there was a

21 sort of makeshift -- I have no idea how they built it, there was a

22 makeshift sort of metal -- not strictly a pontoon but there was a bridge,

23 a makeshift bridge across the river, across which you could run to the

24 other side, where I visited very, very briefly indeed.

25 Q. And what did you see when you visited this brief visit on to the

1 other side, the west side?

2 A. Well, the territory they -- or the bit of the west side that they

3 held was, as I say, no more than two or maybe one block, but I think two,

4 and the houses there were -- were so badly damaged they were for the most

5 part propped up, I mean with sandbags. I mean, the walls were as much

6 sandbag as they were masonry. We ran across the bridge, which sort of

7 bounced and it was quite frightening, there was shooting, we got into this

8 -- this sort of wreckage of houses. I saw smoke coming up through a sort

9 of chimney thing from what was apparently a subterranean area, and I said

10 Who is there, who is there? Are people living here? And the guide said

11 yes, they are, and I wanted to go and talk to them, and stopped and he

12 said no, you don't. See what you have to see and let's get out of here.

13 And I did get to see the front line where soldiers who looked sort of

14 vacant eyed, really, were holding a front line against a Bosnian Croat

15 front line, which is a very, very short distance away across a street and

16 a small piece of parkland.

17 Q. How long did you remain at this front line location?

18 A. Oh, no more than ten minutes.

19 Q. And then where did you go?

20 A. Back across this makeshift bridge, as fast as possible.

21 Q. Back into East Mostar?

22 A. Into East Mostar, yes.

23 Q. And how long did you remain in East Mostar on this occasion in

24 February, 1994?

25 A. No more than a couple of days. Because we were -- we were back in

1 the cellars again, and the shelling and the shooting was as hard as ever,

2 but word was going around, and the Bosnian army were talking about it.

3 Someone must have had a ham radio or something that -- that there was

4 going to be a -- that -- that the deal which -- and I'd been aware of this

5 before, that an American called Charles Redman had been trying to

6 negotiate, was in the offing and -- and that it was about to -- to be

7 signed imminently and to be agreed imminently. People were talking about

8 it. Everyone was talking about it. People were very sceptical that it

9 was, A, true or, B, possible -- likely to hold. But I'd been aware of

10 this before I went in, and this news came quite suddenly, on I think the

11 second day I was there.

12 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, I'll ask you some follow-up questions concerning

13 this matter in just a moment, but before I do, let me ask you, sir, other

14 than the sniping and shelling, were there any sounds that you recall from

15 the time you were in East Mostar?

16 A. Well, not this visit, actually, but from the first visit, yes.

17 There was -- one of the things they had done was to put up speakers or

18 some sort of amplification on the other side of the river, and there would

19 be a sort of broadcast of heavy rock metal music and patriotic songs

20 across to the east side of the river, which people found particularly

21 irksome, as they were intended to do, I think.

22 Q. And sir, when you say "they had put up speakers," who were you

23 referring to?

24 A. There, on the Bosnian Croat western side of the Neretva River.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Vulliamy, beyond the destruction of the bridge that you

1 told us about, what other changes, if any, did you notice in East Mostar

2 between the September, 1993, visit and the February, 1994, visit?

3 A. Further physical destruction. I mean almost to the point of

4 rubble in some places, especially on that western promontory, more

5 crowding, and, well, a sort of sense of siege, siege madness, really.

6 Mostar pocket was very small. One did hold conversations with people, but

7 there was a sort of -- there was a sense that people were -- were -- were

8 going to the edge of madness by now in that place.

9 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, can you tell us about leaving East Mostar in

10 February, 1994.

11 A. Yes. Over one night, the shooting and the shelling -- well, it

12 started to die down and then it stopped and there was a morning up fairly

13 early, shortly after first light, and it had pretty -- it had pretty much

14 stopped and people started to come out on to the streets. There was a

15 very strange, very strange atmosphere of sort of disbelief, and people

16 started to emerge from their buildings or cellars on to the street. I was

17 with a colleague called Tom Rhodes at the time and we agreed that this, we

18 couldn't cover the story of this potential peace agreement or cease-fire,

19 so we made arrangements to leave as soon as possible and went round to the

20 other side of Mostar -- to the west side, I think via Medjugorje, to get a

21 car.

22 Q. Do you recall the approximate date that you left East Mostar and

23 went to Medjugorje?

24 A. I think this is the 24th of February, or the day after the 24th.

25 I think this is the 24th of February.

1 Q. And again 1994?

2 A. 1993.

3 Q. 1993?

4 A. 4. I'm sorry, 1994; 24 February, 1994.

5 Q. And Mr. Vulliamy, what did you report on at this point in time in

6 the end of February, 1994?

7 A. Well, the next -- the next stage was to go to -- I mean, we heard

8 in Medjugorje, or wherever we picked up the car - I think it was

9 Medjugorje - that there had been a deal in Washington. That the so-called

10 Redman Plan had been agreed to by the Bosnian Croats and the armija

11 forces, and we went up to West Mostar to speak to the HVO, basically,

12 about this.

13 Q. Okay. I'll ask you about that in just a moment but can you tell

14 us first if you noticed any differences between West Mostar and East

15 Mostar at this time.

16 A. Well, yes. Immediately, and -- it's almost grotesque. West

17 Mostar there were cars driving around, there were cafes open for business,

18 there were soldiers chatting to each other and to the girls in the cafes.

19 I mean, it wasn't normal life because there was a siege going on, and it

20 was militarised and I dare say they had taken some fire themselves, but it

21 felt like normal life after East Mostar, for sure.

22 Q. Let me ask you, then, sir, in the few moments we have left, you

23 told us at lines 9 and 10 on page 24, "We went to West Mostar to speak to

24 the HVO, basically, about this." Do you recall your discussion with the

25 HVO?

1 A. We were referred by the HVO to a special sort of press operation

2 which they had set up, and our meeting -- I don't think it was actually at

3 their headquarters, their command headquarters, it was some other building

4 they had set up especially to receive journalists or other kind of

5 visitors, and we spoke to a man whose name was, I think it was Vegar, Veso

6 Vegar, who called himself the public affairs officer or spokesman for the

7 HVO. Whether or not that meant the whole HVO or just for Mostar, I don't

8 know.

9 Q. What if anything do you recall this Mr. Vegar telling you?

10 A. I should stress, by the way, that there was relative quiet. The

11 -- the, as it were, the overnight and/or during the early hours cessation

12 of the firing and the shooting had continued into the day. There was

13 almost nothing to be heard. And the first question to him, obviously, was

14 what's happened and is this going to hold? I think by then we knew what

15 had happened because we had picked up the news of what I now know to be

16 called the Washington Agreement. But the question to him was: Is this

17 going to hold? Is it true? And he was very emphatic that it would. I

18 have to say I was sceptical but he was very emphatic. He said -- he said,

19 this is -- this is -- this has been agreed. And he talked about that the

20 -- his army were going to remobilise from this area, and he used a word

21 which I noted and thought was very interesting, he talked about a

22 recommencement of hostilities with the Serbs, implying that there had been

23 a sort of cessation of hostility with the Serbs. He said we are

24 mobilising for a recommencement of hostilities with the Serbs.

25 Again, I was skill sceptical, and as I recall, it was his idea

1 although it should have been mine: Did we want to go and see some of the

2 besieging positions, the mortar positions on his side? And I -- well, Tom

3 Rhodes and I readily agreed that we would like to, and he didn't come

4 himself but he sent someone in our car to take us to where they are.

5 Q. Where did you go on that occasion at that time?

6 A. We went to some not high ground but higher ground, above west --

7 above the west of the city, to a mortar position.

8 Q. And what did you observe from this position?

9 A. Well, surreally, you observed East Mostar across the river, so it

10 was pretty extraordinary to think what that place looked like and felt

11 like and to think that we had been there only that morning or, more

12 extraordinarily, yesterday, which had been so frightening. That the --

13 that -- well, and one observed very quickly that the mortars were not

14 firing. Indeed, they were covered with leather caps. Whether this is

15 something that they were all like that or this is something that Mr. Vegar

16 just wanted us to see, I don't know, but they were, they were out of

17 action. And clearly out of action. I mean they had stopped.

18 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, in the couple of minutes that are remaining, let me

19 ask you this: You told us yesterday that you initially went down into

20 Herzegovina in August of 1992. Can you describe for us the changes that

21 you observed between August of 1992 and February, 1994, in Herzegovina.

22 A. Well, as I say, the place had been completely transformed and,

23 with hindsight, embittered by a war that hadn't existed in 1992, was

24 hastily put into action during the fall of 1992, and which very suddenly

25 ended in February, 1994. The destruction was greater; it felt like a

1 completely different place. It had been through -- it had been into and

2 come out of the other side of a war.

3 Q. What do you mean, sir, when you said it had been completely

4 transformed?

5 A. Well, I'm thinking of Mostar most of all, when you say

6 Herzegovina. I mean, some -- some of the places in Herzegovina were

7 relatively unaffected; Livno, Tomislavgrad, other places I've mentioned.

8 But with regard to the places where there had been ethnic cleansing,

9 camps, fighting, and you asked about Herzegovina, not the same places -

10 there were places like this in Central Bosnia too - they had been

11 transformed because an alliance had been ruptured. I didn't know in

12 February, 1994, whether it was intended to put it back together again or

13 whether that would be possible in that area, but it had been transformed

14 inasmuch as people who had been in August, 1992, I thought fighting a

15 common enemy had now been themselves through a bloody conflict, I say

16 war. I mean, to me, herding women and children into a pocket and shelling

17 them isn't war, it's something worse than war, but that's another

18 discourse. It had been through this awful experience as had I. I was --

19 by now -- it was my paper, actually, demanded that I leave at this point,

20 such was the state I was in.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vulliamy.

22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,

23 Mr. President. We would ask that a few of the documents and drawings that

24 the witness were shown be admitted, including 1784, P 8761, P 8762, and

25 P 9497.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you ask that Exhibit

2 1784, which is a videotape, be admitted, isn't that right?

3 MR. MUNDIS: That is correct.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. But we saw only

5 several seconds' worth of that videotape, and how long is it in total?

6 MR. MUNDIS: The videotape, Mr. President, I believe the video --

7 we can check this at the next break, but I believe that the video that was

8 marked P 1784 was simply the approximately 55-second segment that was

9 shown to this witness. In other words, that was a cut from a longer

10 video, so what 1784 is is the entire 55-second segment that was shown to

11 this witness.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In that case,

13 Mr. Registrar, please assign numbers.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... those four

15 exhibits will be then admitted under the references P 1784, P 9497,

16 P 8761, and P 8762. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now we are going to

18 start with cross-examination. Yesterday I said that Ms. Nozica or

19 Mr. Murphy will start cross-examination and they will have 40 minutes.

20 From now until our break we have another 25 minutes for cross-examination.

21 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I wonder whether it would be convenient

22 to take the break rather early so that the Defence counsel may confer

23 briefly about the length of cross-examination to be taken by each one?

24 There are also, Your Honour, a few documents that I would like to

25 check that are being copied now that may be used in cross-examination. So

1 I wonder if that would be a convenient course for the Court to take?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We will have our

3 break now and continue at 10.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.07 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We are continuing

7 with our hearing. We will work until noon and then we will have a break

8 of hour and a half so that everybody can rest and prepare for work in the

9 afternoon. We will work until 5 p.m. We hope that we will conclude with

10 this witness's testimony today.

11 Mr. Murphy, have you reached an agreement as to the allocation of

12 time?

13 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I think there should be no immediate

14 problem with this witness and I think we can certainly proceed on that

15 basis.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Murphy:

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy.

18 A. Good morning to you.

19 Q. May I introduce myself. My name is Peter Murphy, I'm one of the

20 counsel representing Bruno Stojic.

21 Mr. Vulliamy, you have been a working journalist, I think, since

22 about 1977; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And during the time when you were reporting from Bosnia, you were

25 working for the Guardian newspaper in London?

1 A. Principally, yes.

2 Q. Principally. The -- I'd like to ask you a little bit about your

3 background, if I may. You attended university, I take it?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Did you have a background in Balkan studies as part of your

6 degree?

7 A. Not specifically, no.

8 Q. You mentioned that your initial interest, I think, was in Northern

9 Ireland; is that right?

10 A. Yes. As a student and then as a journalist in the television,

11 yeah.

12 Q. Did you -- have you ever served in the armed forces?

13 A. No. Several members of my family have at quite a senior level,

14 but not me.

15 Q. So your own knowledge of military affairs is really what you've

16 picked up as a journalist.

17 A. Yes, and from relatives.

18 Q. Yes. And also, so far as the Balkan affairs are concerned, one

19 can say that your knowledge of that subject also is derived from your work

20 as a journalist.

21 A. Yes, and a layman's knowledge previous to that, as a student of

22 history, yes.

23 Q. Yes. Do you speak or read the Croatian language?

24 A. No, I don't. I picked up a bit as I went along. I could get by

25 but I couldn't hold a conversation on the level of an interview and I

1 certainly couldn't now.

2 Q. Rather as I speak Dutch, I assume you could ask for a coffee and

3 say good morning to people and so on.

4 A. A little -- now, yes. I could probably get further than that 12

5 or so years ago, but not now.

6 Q. Yes. Now, as a journalist, when you were in Bosnia, clearly you

7 were there at the expense of the Guardian.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were -- your function there was to send back reports to

10 the newspaper.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. For publication the following day.

13 A. Well, or whenever, yes. I mean, usually the following day, it

14 wasn't always easy to get to phones. Often it would be late or too late,

15 but in general that as the idea.

16 Q. In fact, you referred in your testimony to difficulty of obtaining

17 a land line for the purpose of phoning back to England.

18 A. Yes; you had to go down to Croatia to do that --

19 Q. So you --

20 A. -- for the most part.

21 Q. Yes. You would have to go to Split or some other place.

22 A. Yeah. Yes, there was a place called Imotski which was popular

23 because it was the nearest telephone to the area.

24 Q. And I take it that even if the article was not published the

25 following day, it had to be newsworthy in the sense that it would have to

1 be published within a day or two in order to be up-to-date.

2 A. It depended on the kind of article it was. I mean, that's the

3 judgement of my editors, not me.

4 Q. And so you would be -- your job really was to go and investigate;

5 is that right?

6 A. Investigate, witness, do the best one could in conditions which

7 are, as I'm sure you realise, were not easy.

8 Q. Of course. And you would have to do that quite quickly.

9 A. We didn't have to -- I didn't have to sort of dash up and down

10 like some of the people who would work for, say, the agencies,

11 necessarily, but you wouldn't sort of hang about, no, nor did I want to.

12 Q. Well, let me ask you about the time that you actually spent in

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina. During your testimony yesterday and today, you

14 discussed events between, I suppose, August of 1992 and February of 1994.

15 But in fact, during that period, you were really only in Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina for certain limited periods of time.

17 A. Yeah, differing -- I mean, we were on a rotation.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. There were usually two of us within the country, and I was there

20 sometimes for a matter of days, occasionally for a matter of weeks.

21 Q. I'd like to try and pin that down a little more, if I could. You

22 gave evidence about some events that occurred in mid-August, 1992.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Including a visit to what you later learned was the Dretelj camp.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And do you recall at that time in August, how long you spent in

2 the country altogether?

3 A. I think that's the same visit in the country that began with me

4 going to Belgrade prior to the -- yes, to going to Omarska and Trnopolje.

5 I think that's how that same visit started, so I would have been in former

6 Yugoslavia since late July and I don't recall but I -- I don't recall

7 exactly how long, but it's the same visit so it would be -- yeah -- yes,

8 then I went to Zagreb. I think that was -- I can't calculate exactly how

9 long but it was the same visit and it was a reasonably long one.

10 Q. Well, let me be a little more specific, then: During that

11 particular time period, how long did you spend in HVO territory, if I can

12 use that expression?

13 A. A matter of days.

14 Q. Matter of days.

15 A. Mm-hmm.

16 Q. And then you were gone during September. By "gone," I mean you

17 weren't in HVO territory during September.

18 A. Yes. I think I was. Yes. I was. I went to -- I went to Central

19 Bosnia in September, and I must have been in Tomislavgrad at some point

20 during September, if I recall. I didn't go to Mostar in September. I

21 think I went to Vitez during September.

22 Q. I was just looking at -- you recall you were referred yesterday to

23 a witness statement that you gave in 1997. Would it help if you could see

24 that document, with the aid of the registrar?

25 MR. MURPHY: This would be page 5 of the witness statement. I

1 believe that is a Prosecution document, is it not, Mr. Registrar? The

2 page -- yes. The 00484823. I gave you the number for page 5. Do you

3 need the number for the first page? I'm told that 200007. 2D.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe the solution could be if

5 we put that page on the ELMO. That would be a simpler solution.

6 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sometimes practice and theory

8 are two different things.

9 MR. MURPHY: Yes, indeed. I don't know whether everybody can see

10 that. Can we -- yes.

11 Q. What I'm showing you, Mr. Vulliamy, is the fifth page of the

12 witness statement that I was referring to. If you look at the first

13 paragraph right at the top there, it refers to covering ethnic cleansing

14 of Muslims by the Serbs in north-western Bosnia until September, and you

15 say, "Then I took some time off and returned to Herzegovina in mid- to

16 late October." Does that refresh your recollection?

17 A. Yes, it does. The first sentence refers to following up on the

18 convoys like the one that I went on from north-western Bosnia into

19 Travnik, and I think I went up to Travnik to write an article about how

20 they were continuing, or to research an article about how they were

21 continuing. And when I say "time off," I don't mean holiday. I was

22 working elsewhere, and yes, that makes sense. I returned in October to

23 Herzegovina.

24 Q. I don't mean to press it unnecessarily. I just -- when you were

25 working elsewhere I just want to establish where you were in fact during

1 September.

2 A. Well, most of September, I suppose, I was out, but it says until

3 September, but the work described in that first sentence would have been

4 based in Turbe and Travnik, and it would be about the convoys of Muslims

5 and Croats coming from the Prijedor-Banja Luka region into Central Bosnia,

6 on, as I explained, along the route that I myself had taken some weeks

7 prior.

8 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, I understand that. Then after you had done that,

9 you took some time off, and the question is simply where did you go?

10 A. After -- during September, when I -- in between the two visits?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I went to Rome -- or Milan, actually.

13 Q. Somewhere in Italy.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. All right. Now, then, you came back then in

16 October of 1992, came back to --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Yes. And you gave evidence about certain events that occurred

19 during that period. And then I think you left between November of 1992

20 and the beginning of 1993, when you came back to make the film.

21 A. That would make sense, as far as I recall, yes.

22 Q. Right. And you spent two months, I think, making the -- making

23 the film or being involved with that, and then you were absent until July

24 of 1993?

25 A. January, February, March. That's correct, as I recall, yeah.

1 Q. When you spent a week in Vitez, I think?

2 A. Before going down to Herzegovina, July, yes, that's right.

3 Q. Yes. And then as we heard more recently, today, you returned to

4 Bosnia in September of 1993, which is when you visited East Mostar, I

5 think, for the first time.

6 A. To Bosnia, yes. I spent some time in Croatia late -- or in Zagreb

7 late August. Early September, late August, yes, I was back in Bosnia

8 around there.

9 Q. Now, let me -- let me then just turn to one or two other things

10 before I hand over to my colleagues. You testified yesterday about

11 conversations you had had with a man by the name of Pero Markovic. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. No. I sought to have a conversation -- this is the mayor of

14 Capljina; is that right?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. No, I sought to have a conversation with him on the day I went to

17 Capljina in 1992, but we didn't speak, no.

18 Q. But you had a conversation regarding his activities.

19 A. About him, yes.

20 Q. About him, yes.

21 A. That was with people from the UNHCR. I had never met him, to my

22 knowledge.

23 Q. I understand, but you did have a conversation with officials of

24 the UNHCR.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. From which you gathered that Mr. Markovic had a reputation of

2 being somewhat extreme.

3 A. That's what they said, yes. He was also named by the people in

4 Capljina.

5 Q. And his function, I think, you were told, was that he was the

6 mayor and also the head of the local HVO?

7 A. I think both. The mayor, I certainly recall.

8 Q. Yes. And based on the information that you received, you formed

9 the opinion, did you not, that it was Pero Markovic who was the moving

10 force behind the expulsions in Capljina.

11 A. That was the impression I got from the UNHCR, yes. I mean, they

12 -- well, they didn't -- I mean, they didn't rate him very highly.

13 Q. No. I understand. And as a result of what you were told, you --

14 that was a view that you accepted, was it not?

15 A. I didn't -- I mean, I'd never met him. I'd been told what I was

16 told. Whether I accepted it or not, I mean, I wouldn't have written -- I

17 didn't accept it to the point of writing it, but what he -- what was said

18 about him was enough to cause considerable alarm, yeah.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. And, indeed, as I say, his name had been mentioned by the people

21 in Capljina as well as the UNHCR.

22 Q. Yes. And you certainly had no reason to disbelieve what you'd

23 been told.

24 A. No, no.

25 MR. MURPHY: If I may have one moment, Your Honour.

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, we have no further questions for

3 Mr. Vulliamy at this time. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic?

5 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, with your permission, my client would

6 like to put some questions where he was somehow more or less more

7 acquainted with the facts, and if you permit, that first he put some

8 questions and I would then follow up. Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Kovacic.

10 Mr. Praljak, you have the floor.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vulliamy, we don't have much time, so please

14 try to answer briefly and precisely.

15 A. I shall.

16 Q. You mentioned visiting the Dretelj camp on the 8th or 9th of

17 August 1992. There were Serbs detained in the camp and HOS members

18 controlled the camp.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Do you know whether HOS was not under the influence of the

21 political structure of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

22 A. I don't know the exact relationship. I know that they were

23 associated with a political party based in Zagreb but I don't know their

24 exact relationship to the community of Herceg-Bosna. I do know that at

25 that time they had a fairly antagonistic relationship with the HVO.

1 Q. Could we therefore conclude that when a political party has an

2 army, it is not under the influence of any sort of social organisation

3 that would be part of the HZ HB, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

4 A. I don't know what the relationship between the community and the

5 HOS was.

6 Q. Thank you. Did HOS have a headquarters of its own?

7 A. I don't know if it had an overall headquarters but it had a

8 headquarters --

9 Q. Please, if you don't know the answer, just say I don't know and we

10 can then move on.

11 A. It had a headquarters for the area in Capljina.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the HOS commander, Blaz Kraljevic,

13 who was later killed, was appointed as a general by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Do you know whether there were more Muslims than Croats in the

16 HOS?

17 A. I knew that there were Muslims in the HOS, yes.

18 Q. Do you know how many soldiers the HOS units had in the territory

19 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in various parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

20 as far as Zenica?

21 A. I don't have a figure, no.

22 Q. Do you know what sort of weapons they had?

23 A. For the most part I saw them with Kalashnikov weapons. I didn't

24 see much sign of artillery. In fact, not any, but Kalashnikovs certainly

25 and other small arms.

1 Q. Thank you. What sort of institution is there in the HZ HB, a

2 military and political institution if it can tolerate the HOS army but

3 can't control it in any way?

4 A. Sorry, forgive me, sir, I didn't understand the --

5 Q. Is the HZ HB as an organisational structure important if, in

6 addition to the regular army, there is another army faction that it cannot

7 control in any way?

8 A. I'm unaware of what the law of the H -- of the Croatian Community

9 of Herceg-Bosna is as regarding what armed forces were or weren't legal at

10 that time. What I did know was that the HVO and the armija BH were

11 fighting in alliance. Where HOS fitted into that alliance, I don't know.

12 Q. Thank you. You said that the HOS was in favour of a Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina as an integral part of Croatia which would extend as far as

14 the Drina.

15 A. That's what was explained to me by Mr. Dedakovic, yes.

16 Q. Isn't the idea of having a Croatia up to the Drina, isn't this the

17 idea of the Independent State of Croatia and of Ante Pavelic, an idea in

18 which -- as a result of which the Muslims were expelled as part of that

19 entity?

20 A. I knew that that was -- that the HOS wanted to repeat the border

21 of 1941, yes. That was also explained to me.

22 Q. As a journalist, were you interested in the fact that Alija

23 Izetbegovic appointed a general of such an army?

24 A. I didn't know that the -- is it Kraljevic, the man who was killed

25 at the roadblock, I didn't know that he was also a general in the armija

1 BH. I knew his name - I had never met him - as the, until then, commander

2 of the HOS. I didn't know that he was also a general in the armija BH, if

3 he was.

4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the Dretelj camp was dismantled

5 through the HVO armed forces and they risked a conflict with the HOS? And

6 I'm referring to the Dretelj camp in 1992.

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Do you know what the risk was when there is a Serbian aggression?

9 Do you know what the risk was of a possible conflict breaking out between

10 the HVO and the HOS?

11 A. I was by then aware -- or, no, I wasn't actually, sorry. With

12 hindsight, I'm aware of the risk of a conflict between any forces on what

13 was being called the free territory while there was fighting going on

14 against the Serbs, yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you know who issued an order to a group of

16 individuals according to which the Dretelj camp should be dismantled by

17 use of force, the Dretelj camp in which Serbs were detained?

18 A. Who gave the HVO order? No, I don't. I didn't know that the camp

19 had been closed in that manner.

20 Q. Would you be surprised if I was the person responsible for this?

21 A. I thought your previous question might lead to that.

22 Q. Thank you. Is there something that you think would be incorrect

23 or immoral in Mate Boban's statement according to which the constitution

24 of Bosnia and Herzegovina should refer not only to citizens but also to

25 the rights of peoples; the Croats, the Muslims, and the Serbs?

1 A. Sorry, do I think that that's wrong for him to say that?

2 Q. Yes, do you think it's wrong?

3 A. Well, it's up to him whether it's right or wrong. I was by now

4 getting a little weary of this constant not verbal use but deployment of

5 the word "narod" because I'd come across it too much in Croatia and from

6 the Bosnian Serbs, and I was uncomfortable with this constant emphasis on

7 the collective right of the "narod." I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just

8 saying that, in my experience, it had led to some unfortunate and very

9 violent action.

10 Q. Thank you. The Muslims, Croats and Serbs, are they constituent

11 peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina and do they have sovereign rights?

12 A. After the break-up of Yugoslavia or before? Under the

13 constitution? I --

14 Q. Under the constitution and as a people, or as peoples.

15 A. I'm aware that when -- that before the break-up of Yugoslavia, the

16 "narod" did exist as groups within the former Yugoslavia, and I'm aware

17 that the "Muslimanski narod" became a "narod" in this way, yes.

18 Q. Is the right to defence and to freedom an obligation and the right

19 of a sovereign people and of the individuals or members of a particular

20 ethnic group?

21 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis?

23 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, we've given the accused some leeway here

24 in terms of his cross-examination but really this is not the best witness

25 to be putting these questions to. They call for opinions. This is a

1 journalist. He's testified about what he observed, people he spoke with,

2 what he saw. This is well beyond the scope of his direct examination, in

3 the first place. Second of all, it calls for opinions; and in the third

4 place, it's not a proper basis for cross-examining.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The witness was drawing

6 conclusions.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, you have something

8 to say?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Yeah, if I may briefly respond. I think it's well

10 within the testimony we heard yesterday and well within the scope of the

11 gentleman's knowledge, because he is drawing a distinction. He's saying

12 "narod," you know, nations, and he's only saying that there are two. Now

13 he's acknowledging that there is a third one, and I think it -- and

14 Mr. Praljak or anyone else here is entitled to set up the situation for

15 other witnesses to follow. The gentleman was in the field. He's written

16 a book. He's drawn conclusions. Assumingly, one would know what he's

17 talking about, so I think it's well within the scope and I would insist

18 that Mr. Praljak be allowed to continue in this vein. Thank you.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if we could be heard on one additional

20 issue?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate

23 time to be raising this issue, Mr. President, but Mr. Karnavas represents

24 another accused in this case and we might be needing some guidelines here

25 in a multiple accused, multiply-represented situation. Again, if

1 Mr. Karnavas thinks these are appropriate questions, perhaps, given his

2 legal training, he can formulate questions that are not objectionable when

3 it's his opportunity to cross-examine the witness. The Prosecution does,

4 however, object to this type of intervention by someone who does not

5 represent Mr. Praljak.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm entitled, Your Honour, to make my record, and

7 if I can assist anyone else, I don't see a problem with that. If the

8 Court wishes to give me some guidance, that's fine. But I think that in

9 the event I have some information or some knowledge that might be of

10 assistance to General Praljak or anyone else, I don't see the reason why I

11 should not. If I'm told by his counsel not to intervene, that's very well

12 but I think that -- I don't want to see --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The question that

14 the Judges put to themselves, having heard Mr. Praljak's questions, is

15 whether this is pertinent and whether the witness is the right person to

16 answer questions of a political nature and questions that have to do with

17 constitutional matters. Before I authorise you to continue putting your

18 questions, there is something that the witness should clarify for the

19 Chamber.

20 Sir, as a journalist, are you an investigative journalist or a

21 political journalist? Since, as you're well aware, there are different

22 types of journalists. There are journalists who use facts and on the

23 basis of facts write articles of a political nature. They refer to the

24 constitution, to people, to other such ideas, and then we have journalists

25 who are more interested in facts; they go into the field, they observe

1 that there is a concentration camp there and they explain that there are

2 inmates in the camp. They don't ask any other questions. Mr. Praljak's

3 questions have to do with the political context, so there are references

4 to Mate Boban, to certain other matters such as the constitution. In

5 order to avoid wasting time, given the objections we have heard, would you

6 say that you're qualified to answer the questions put to you? If you

7 believe that you are not qualified to answer these questions, please

8 inform us of the fact and Mr. Praljak will move on to another area.

9 Naturally, you should avoid expressing your own personal opinion because,

10 as a journalist, well, you write for an important British newspaper, and

11 this would be the newspaper's point of view. So do you think you would be

12 able to answer my question, please?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can do so easily. I have never been a

14 reporter of, if you like, party politics or a political correspondent. I

15 have done investigations, as into corruption or whatever. Covering war is

16 -- or conflict, which I've also done, is closer to your latter category

17 than the former. On the other hand, you have, I think, to know a bit

18 about the political situation, although my detailed knowledge of the

19 constitution, there are certainly better qualified people to discuss that

20 than me, but I am aware of this, as counsel referred to, the two "narod,"

21 Srpski and Hrvatski, in that country. I don't think I ever said there

22 were only two because I did know that, under the former Yugoslavia, a

23 third category was added, "Muslimanski narod," and -- but I'm not an

24 expert on constitutional politics nor have I ever been a party political

25 correspondent or a constitutional correspondent.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Praljak, the

2 journalist has just said that there is a field he's not familiar with, so

3 please try to put more precise questions to the witness, questions that

4 the witness can answer.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You said that Mate Boban mentioned Switzerland as a model for

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct? Yes or no.

8 A. Yes, he did.

9 Q. Is Switzerland a good example of a way in which a country should

10 be organised if it has three peoples?

11 A. I don't really have a view on Switzerland in particular.

12 Q. Is it true that you never heard Mate Boban say anything about

13 Herceg-Bosna seceding and being annexed to Croatia?

14 A. That's correct. He never used the word "annexation" or

15 "secession," but he gave the impression that he wanted there to be very

16 close ties. He used the terms "cultural," "spiritual," and I think

17 "material" or "economic," and certainly the border between Herceg-Bosna

18 and Croatia at that time was almost non-existent.

19 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, please try to answer my questions and it's not

20 necessary to tell us about your impressions. Please just answer my

21 questions. Impressions are for the Judges.

22 If it's true that Mate Boban and Croatia signed Cutileiro's and

23 Vance-Owen's plans and all the plans drafted by the international

24 community, wouldn't it be illogical for them to wish to go to war at the

25 same time?

1 A. I don't know whether it's logical or not. They were manifestly

2 preparing to go to war.

3 Q. To go to war to fight an aggression, yes. Would it be logical to

4 assume that those who wanted war and wanted to conquer territory were

5 those who did not sign plans or proposals drawn up by the international

6 community?

7 A. So far as I'm aware, and you mentioned the Vance-Owen Plan, which

8 more or less duplicated what Mate Boban had outlined he wanted, so far as

9 I know, the same people were signing the Vance-Owen Plan as were also

10 talking about the HVO being the civilian military authority in the area

11 and implying, at least, that they had some sort of control over the HVO,

12 and I think at some point, yes, Mr. Boban did say that the Croatian

13 people, and the HVO is their army, were armed and ready to defend their

14 freedom, which, as I think I testified, in my experience by then defence

15 didn't always mean a defence, although in some cases it might well have

16 done.

17 Q. Mate Boban, when you expected him to talk about his success

18 against the Serbs in the summer of 1992, also spoke to you about political

19 problems and you were surprised. Was a political solution for the

20 organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina a basis for war or a basis for

21 peace?

22 A. What surprised me was how little he wanted to talk about dealings

23 with the Serbs, given that that's who -- I presumed he and his allies on

24 -- in the Bosnian Muslim and government side were fighting, but I didn't

25 see his discourse as a plea for peace. I saw it as more a sturdy

1 assertion of these rights of the "narod" we've been talking about, with

2 references to armed force, if necessary, which he implied he thought it

3 would be.

4 Q. Thank you. In Grude you saw some cars with HV number plates. Do

5 you know how many people born in Bosnia-Herzegovina, how many citizens of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina, participated in the defence of Croatia when it was

7 attacked in 1991?

8 A. I don't know how many, but I know there were.

9 Q. Thank you. Could we conclude that it would be logical for them to

10 come and defend their family members and their homes in Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina after four UNPAs were formed in Croatia and a truce was

12 established at the beginning of 1992 in that area?

13 A. I didn't understand the question, sorry.

14 Q. Would one say, could one say that it's logical that people from

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina who participated in the fight in the Croatian army to

16 defend Croatia from the Serbian aggression, could one say that it's

17 logical for them to come to Bosnia and Herzegovina after the truce in

18 Croatia to defend their homes there and to defend their family members

19 there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. You have some knowledge of the military. Wouldn't it

22 be illogical to calm the tensions in the battlefield in Croatia and then

23 allow the same aggressor, who was the same objectives, to move all his

24 military power to Bosnia and Herzegovina and to continue doing everything

25 that he had already done in Vukovar, et cetera? Is it possible to

1 distinguish these two ideas? Can we calm the situation in one area and

2 continue in another area? We have the same aggressor, the same army, the

3 same forces. Is that logical?

4 A. I'm certainly aware of the remobilisation, as you put it, of the

5 former JNA, now basically the Serbian army, and Bosnian Serbian army, and

6 I'm also aware - and it wasn't just me - that the HV, as you said, rallied

7 to this second war in Bosnia. It wasn't just me who saw their vehicles.

8 In fact, the military monitors saw them and their weaponry quite

9 regularly. We used to be briefed up to and including the siege of Mostar,

10 East Mostar.

11 Q. How many cars with HV number plates did you see in Grude?

12 A. In Grude at that particular time, I don't recall an exact number.

13 They were there and they were present throughout the period we have been

14 talking about across the area. Not in very large numbers but I don't want

15 to put a figure to it.

16 Q. Would it be possible for the young men from the Croatian army to

17 take a vehicle and go to places that had been attacked, places where their

18 family members lived, without authorisation? Would it be possible for

19 them to do this without authorisation?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Thank you. Reference was made to 1992, in the summer. Boban said

22 he wouldn't allow the Muslims to participate in the government in Mostar

23 and elsewhere in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

24 A. The conversation that I recall referred specifically to Mostar. I

25 don't remember him saying it about the whole territory, but in Mostar he

1 said there would be no legal Muslim representation, yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Is it then possible to explain the fact that the ABiH

3 was arming itself constantly in Mostar right up to the beginning of the

4 conflict, given that Boban was the Supreme Commander of the army?

5 A. I'm aware that the Bosnian army in Mostar was armed, of course. I

6 was discussing their allied operation with the Serbs with the HVO. I have

7 to admit I don't know whether Boban was regarded as the commander of the

8 Bosnian army in Herceg-Bosna. Whether he regarded himself as that or not,

9 I don't know. But I -- as far as I know, the Bosnian army was not under

10 his command. When I visit the Mostar in August, 1992, of course the

11 Bosnian army was armed, and I was aware of that, and it was fighting an

12 alliance with the HVO which was also armed. I have to say I don't know

13 what the chain of command was between Mr. Boban and the armija BH in

14 Mostar, the formal chain of command.

15 Q. Sir, I'm interested in logics. If somebody wishes to subject

16 somebody and provides him with weapons all the time, then this -- is it

17 not a logical paradox?

18 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand. To --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, would you please

20 ask questions that the witness can answer. Because with the kind of

21 questions that you're asking now, you are pleading your own case. We

22 haven't reached that point in the trial yet. This witness had the

23 privilege of meeting Mr. Boban, so it would be interesting to ask him

24 questions about the nature of the contacts he had with him, not political

25 speculations or things like that. And the journalist has told you a

1 number of times that he doesn't know. His answer was that he didn't know.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you know this, that in May, 1992, the whole of the left bank of

4 the River Neretva, from north Mostar up to the very border with Croatia,

5 was ethnically cleansed of the Serb aggression?

6 A. I was aware that there was a battle for Mostar in July, which was

7 won by the Muslim-Croat alliance, but I'm also aware that the Serbs in

8 their advance on the -- by "left," I think you mean the east bank of the

9 Neretva -- had ethnically cleansed Croats and Muslims from that area who

10 had come into West Mostar. Indeed, I spoke to some of them during that

11 visit in August, 1992, yes.

12 Q. Where did all these refugees go?

13 A. They had come into -- into Mostar. I don't know how long they

14 stayed there, but the ones that I met, who had, as you say, been

15 ethnically cleansed by the Serbs from the east bank of the Neretva and

16 from as far as Trebinje, I don't know where they went after Mostar, except

17 that when I returned to Mostar in October, 1992, many of them were still

18 there because most of them were the ones I was referring to when I said

19 that they were required by the new rules in force to re-register with the

20 HVO authorities. They were mostly from that east bank that you've been

21 referring to, sir.

22 Q. If I've understood you correctly, you seem to have the opinion all

23 the time that Mate Boban and politics wished to engage in war against the

24 Muslims, to expel the Muslims and to gain supremacy over the Muslims.

25 That's how I understand your conclusions to be. Would that be a correct

1 understanding?

2 A. "Expel," he didn't use those words, but what I saw in Prozor made

3 me wonder. "Supremacy over" within the territory of Herceg-Bosna,

4 definitely yes. And sorry, what was your other -- there was another --

5 oh, "declare war on." I thought his attitude -- I thought he was taking a

6 fairly bellicose stand with regard to the authority of the Sarajevo

7 government, yes. But you've used three categories there. I'd agree with

8 two of them. I'm not sure about "expel."

9 Q. Thank you. Could you be more precise when answering my questions,

10 please.

11 How, then, can you explain the following fact: That in 1993, in

12 April, in areas which had already been cleansed, we have the whole 4th

13 Corps of the BH army and all the refugees have returned, and expelled

14 persons, and the Muslim Bregava Brigade in Stolac? How did they return?

15 Who armed them? And is that not a contradiction to the desire for ethnic

16 cleansing?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That's an incredibly

18 compound question, and again, he -- there is elements of this question

19 that are not -- there are elements that are not in evidence. There are

20 elements of this question that are incredibly complex and compound.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak. You're asking

22 a question which has several facets to it. Try and break it up, break the

23 question up in such a way that you can receive a specific answer, because

24 otherwise, the Prosecutor is going to stand up and object.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 Q. In May, 1992, you have the whole left bank of the River Neretva

2 cleansed. Yes or no.

3 A. I wasn't there but I read about it and I agree.

4 Q. Thank you. In June, 1992, the liberated territory, liberated from

5 the Serb occupation, is that correct or not? Was it or was it not?

6 A. I thought it was July. I wasn't there. I stand corrected if it

7 was June.

8 Q. Yes, all right, July.

9 All the refugees, of the brigade, were returned, sent back. Yes

10 or no. Those who wanted to return.

11 A. I'm sorry, sir, you mean the refugees from the east bank returned

12 to the east Serbian-controlled territory? I don't know.

13 Q. Yes. That's right.

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Thank you. On the eastern side now, which was under the control

16 of the Serbs, we had the establishment of the 4th Corps of the BH army,

17 and in Stolac the Brigade called Bregava Brigade. Yes or no.

18 A. I knew that the 4th Corps of the BH army was in alliance on the

19 east bank, as you said. I've never heard of the Bregava Brigade, I'm

20 afraid.

21 Q. Could that have been done without the active participation of the

22 HVO, both the civilian and the military component?

23 A. Do you mean the deployment of the 4th Corps?

24 Q. Yes. And the refugees.

25 A. I doubt it at that point. No, I don't think it could have done

1 because I kept saying as far as I know the armies were fighting in

2 alliance at that time.

3 Q. Thank you. I'm going to be as brief as possible, Your Honours, to

4 save time.

5 Was Jajce linked to Travnik with a narrow corridor?

6 A. Yes, it was. And a very frightening one along which I tried to go

7 many times.

8 Q. On the left and right side of the corridor, you had Serb units.

9 Yes or no.

10 A. Certainly did.

11 Q. On the left side, behind the Serb lines, if you know, did you have

12 the BH army units there at Komar hill? Do you know about that?

13 A. I might well have done at the time with maps in front of me. I

14 have to say I can't recall exactly what was on the other side of those

15 Serbian lines now. This must be towards Bugojno. I don't know who held

16 the territory but I think it was probably both BiH and HVO, but I'm afraid

17 I can't answer your question at this point.

18 Q. Do you happen to know of a single attempt by the BH army from

19 Bugojno to expand the corridor by attacking the Serb forces from the

20 rear? Yes or no.

21 A. I think I heard about that but I wasn't there for it. I think

22 there were various attempts to expand the corridor.

23 Q. Thank you. Do you know the following, that from Zagreb doctors

24 were sent with an armoured vehicle, a bus, to pull out the wounded from

25 Jajce; Doctors Kveric [phoen], Barisic [phoen], et cetera?

1 A. I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me. There was some

2 heroic stuff going up and down that corridor by both the HVO and the BH

3 armija to service Jajce and to rescue the wounded. Doesn't surprise me at

4 all.

5 Q. Do you know that all the wounded, regardless of ethnicity, were

6 pulled out and for the most part transported to the HVO hospital in

7 Bugojno? Do you know about that? Yes or no.

8 A. No, I don't, but again I'm quite prepared to believe it.

9 Q. Thank you. Do you know how many units we sent from Herzegovina to

10 reinforce and assist Jajce when we came to understand that its position

11 was very bad? Yes or no.

12 A. I don't know specifically -- sorry, specifically about units from

13 Herzegovina but I know that the HVO was, like the Bosnian army, trying to

14 get people through that corridor, yes.

15 Q. Do you know that not a single unit that was sent to assist Jajce

16 arrived in Jajce? Do you know that?

17 A. No, I don't, but I was about to say I don't know -- I mean,

18 whether they got there is another matter because it -- it's a very

19 difficult --

20 Q. Do you know that all the units were stopped by the BH army forces

21 between Vakuf and Travnik, Novi Travnik?

22 A. No, I didn't, I just -- [overlapping microphones] when that was.

23 Q. And do you know that we sent a HOS unit where there was 70 per

24 cent Muslims to help out Jajce, do you know about that?

25 A. I didn't know about HOS in Jajce.

1 Q. Do you know that that particular unit was stopped by the BH army

2 and held for three days under siege and that it never reached Jajce?

3 A. No, I didn't know about the HOS. I told you I didn't know about

4 the HOS going to Jajce.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, the Judges to my

6 left and my right and I myself -- although I myself have a different

7 opinion, are -- think that you're asking questions that are not pertinent,

8 and the majority of judges would like you to concentrate on questions

9 which the witness can answer and contribute to our knowledge of what he

10 saw, so that he can answer questions on the basis of what he saw or knew

11 about. The previous question that you just asked him was a speculative

12 question, and it is not useful to us.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

14 Q. You mentioned the Diamont Road.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you said that that road was constructed by English engineering

17 units.

18 A. Well, I said part of it was enhanced or tarmacked by, where

19 necessary. I didn't say the whole road was built by them, I don't think.

20 Q. That route was one through which hundreds of thousands of refugees

21 passed. And now just finally, let me ask you this: In your statement you

22 say that you received from me permission to visit the collection centre,

23 the camp in Dretelj, on the 8th of September 1993.

24 A. I can't be -- I'm sure your date is right. I recognise you from

25 that, that moment, and so far as I'm aware, it was you who gave us

1 permission verbally and, to the best of my knowledge in a paper, an order

2 paper, to go to Dretelj, yes.

3 Q. Yesterday, in a document that was shown to the Court, we saw that

4 President Franjo Tudjman sent a letter to Mate Boban on the 6th of

5 September 1993; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. And that's the letter I think I recall reading in Slobodna

7 Dalmacija on the 7th.

8 Q. You said that the probable reason for that letter was pressure on

9 the part of the international community and threats of sanction to

10 Croatia.

11 A. As I recall, an objection was raised to that - to quote counsel -

12 analysis, which was upheld. I'm not sure if I'm obliged to comment. All

13 I can say is that, on reading that letter, one was aware that this

14 discourse was being had at diplomatic levels.

15 Q. You also said in your statement that you were the first journalist

16 to enter the collection centre, the Dretelj camp. Yes or no.

17 A. To the best of my knowledge, we were the first group of

18 journalists to go, but if there is a published article by somebody about

19 Dretelj prior to our visit, then obviously my view at that point was

20 incorrect.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the

22 court for my order of the 1st of September 1993 to be displayed, giving

23 permission that in Gabela camp or for a TV, German TV crew ZDF German TV

24 crew to enter Gabela camp.

25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may, this document was last in our

1 batch which we put electronically and we just discovered that the last

2 document for some reason is not in the electronic system, so I would like

3 to use the copies and then probably through the morning it will come into

4 the system. I have four copies; one should be for Trial Chamber, one for

5 witness, for ELMO, and -- I'm expecting this document to be released

6 during the morning.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Is this not six days before Franjo Tudjman sent the letter to Mate

9 Boban?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. In view of the fact that this was broadcast over television, is it

12 not possible that it was only then that people in Croatia learned of the

13 actual situation in those camps and that that included Franjo Tudjman too?

14 A. I'm unable to suppose when or how people in Croatia found out

15 about the conditions in the camp, nor have I seen the film, nor was I

16 aware of it. But you may have a point. I don't know about this film. I

17 only said that we were the first into Dretelj because it was the commander

18 of the man in Dretelj who said that we were. I didn't know about Gabela

19 and I didn't know about this film, but I do agree it was before the date

20 of the letter, as you said.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, for the easier identification of the

22 document, I would like to state on the record that this document number is

23 3D 00141 so later we can identify it and I will then ask you to admit the

24 document. Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, so the warden told you that you were the first

2 journalist to enter Dretelj; is that right?

3 A. As I recall, it was the commander of the camp who told us we were.

4 Q. Yes. But you didn't know whether that was actually true or not.

5 A. No. I had no reason to doubt him, and as I say I didn't know

6 about this prior visit by German journalists to Gabela.

7 Q. Do you know that on the 7th of September 1993, a journalist from

8 Globus by the name of Zeljko Rogosic had received permission from me, an

9 order, granting permission for him to enter both Gabela and Dretelj, and

10 that he did so after encountering a certain amount of problems?

11 A. I knew neither that he'd been, nor about the [unintelligible].

12 Q. Can you tell me why you were surprised when you received

13 permission from me to enter the camp?

14 A. Well, I was gratefully surprised, because people working with

15 Mr. Boban had been quite emphatic, indeed on the day that you mentioned

16 just now, the 7th, and back in July, that we couldn't go to Dretelj.

17 Q. Did you ever meet me before that date?

18 A. No, I'd never seen you before that date. I knew your face from

19 the newspapers. I'd never seen you.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Although I would have a lot

21 more to ask you, I'll rest there. Thank you for answering the questions,

22 and thank you to the Trial Chamber for allowing me to ask them.

23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, General.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy. My name is Bozidar

1 Kovacic. I am defence counsel for Mr. Praljak, and I have a few more

2 questions to ask you in respect of your testimony yesterday.

3 A. Good morning to you. Thank you.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Yesterday you spoke about your travels through

5 Prozor, so first of all let's locate and pinpoint what this was about. On

6 page 53 of the transcript, line 12 to 14, and 53, line 21, you said that

7 after meeting with Boban on the 24th of October - that is to say the

8 meeting with Boban was on the 24th of October - you travelled towards the

9 north of Bosnia, to Travnik and Vitez, and all this with respect to the

10 critical situation in Jajce, and you mentioned that a moment ago today.

11 A. Yes. I think there was also, in between that, there was, I think

12 I mentioned, an excursion with UNPROFOR soldiers to try and locate a route

13 through to Sarajevo but when I was coming down through Prozor, it was

14 after going up into Central Bosnia to check the latest situation with

15 regard to Jajce. That's as I recall, yes, and I think I testified to

16 that.

17 Q. Yes, that's right. You've now incorporated that into the long

18 story that we heard from you yesterday. So we know where we stand.

19 But you're not quite sure whether or not you were moving

20 northwards towards Travnik and if you passed through the town of Prozor on

21 the 24th or the 25th, but you did say that you do remember that it was a

22 weekend; is that right?

23 A. I do remember that I was driving southwards in the first of those

24 drives, yes, when it was, as I said I think, normal -- it was -- it was a

25 Friday or a Saturday, I think I said Friday or Saturday possibly -- I

1 think it was a Friday afternoon or a Saturday but I just -- I honestly

2 can't remember exactly which but it was driving south definitely.

3 Q. [In English] But that means on your return way from Travnik.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Sorry, I'm confusing you. I will continue in Croatian -- or in

6 English.

7 A. That's right, from Central Bosnia down towards Herzegovina.

8 Q. So it was a little bit different than you said -- than you stated

9 yesterday. Yesterday I understood -- and I was checking the transcript.

10 I understood that during that weekend, which was immediately after your

11 meeting with Boban, and you were quite certain that a meeting with Boban

12 took place on 24. What you were not certain and, of course, after certain

13 years, is that whether you were travelling north toward Travnik on the

14 very same day or next day, and then you said, Well, it must have been

15 during the weekend.

16 A. As I recall, it was during the weekend, and I was travelling south

17 through Prozor the first time.

18 Q. If you --

19 A. Not for the first time, but the first time in that episode.

20 Q. Okay. I appreciate that, sir. But then, if you think that you

21 were driving in direction south, so you are on your returning trip from

22 Travnik down to Herzegovina, that is highly impossible because you said

23 that on 24 you met Boban down there somewhere.

24 A. In Grude.

25 Q. In Grude, on south. You went to Vitez and Travnik, and on the

1 other place, a little bit after on those pages, you said, "I was going

2 back in two or three days." So that then must be, let's say, 26, 27. But

3 anyway, I don't think it's so important. What is important is that you

4 said on the first time - and that is the substance - on my first journey

5 toward north, I passed through Prozor and it was a peaceful atmosphere,

6 nothing was happening there; is that correct?

7 A. No, first journey was south, southwards.

8 Q. But then how come you came on the north in order to go back to the

9 south?

10 A. We left the British and moved up into Central Bosnia, as I recall,

11 through Kiseljak, I think.

12 Q. So some other way, not through Prozor.

13 A. Going up north before coming down through Prozor, but I can't

14 remember the route, I think through Kiseljak.

15 Q. Okay. Then whatever direction it was, you said during that

16 weekend, 24 --

17 A. I said I can't remember the date.

18 Q. Okay. It might be 24, 25, here, somewhere.

19 A. I don't know which day is which date. It was Friday, Saturday or

20 Sunday.

21 Q. Okay. But nevertheless --

22 A. People were going to church, if that helps.

23 Q. Nevertheless, you're claiming that at that journey, first time

24 when you came in Prozor, it was peaceful atmosphere.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then only couple of days later, what, two or three days

2 later --

3 A. Something like that.

4 Q. It was a hell there.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Correct. Well, sir, let me introduce you some documents, and I

7 think it will be helpful for the Court in further proceedings, not only

8 related to that, but since you started it, I should -- we have to go to

9 that.

10 I am calling document 3D 00124 to be on the screen, please.

11 While we are waiting for the document, I will just point out short

12 description. This is a document issued on 24/10. It is issued by

13 municipal authorities, Tactical Group 1, of Jablanica, and the document is

14 rather lengthy. It has full two pages. It is signed by Commander Salko

15 Zeren, which is, by the name, Muslim, and it is issued obviously by the

16 unit belonging to army. And in the opening paragraph, the document says:

17 "Pursuant to the oral query of the Main Staff head deputy, on sending

18 armed forces Jablanica unit to Prozor, we report you on the following:

19 During night, the units -- the unit was ready to move, but was not sent

20 from the following reasons."

21 And now I don't think we have to read all that in this particular

22 moment, but then somewhere on the end, he furtherly explained that: "Our

23 unit could not perform the task for the reason of strong HVO forces

24 concentration, establishment degree, and equipment of the same unit. The

25 same unit -" meaning this one - "would have suffered huge losses if there

1 had been such a unit engagement in order to close the communication and

2 disable the evacuation of refugees and wounded persons from Prozor." Et

3 cetera, et cetera.

4 So it obviously shows that on those days, particularly 24 October

5 and obviously sometime before that, so day or two days before that, there

6 is engagement, there is a kind of conflict between those two forces.

7 And let's see how this situation developed further. I would call

8 document 3D 00123. Sir, I would show you just a couple of documents and

9 then would ask for a comment related to time and then probably to events

10 because --

11 A. That's fine.

12 Q. -- in the next couple of days, you saw some portion of the events.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This is the document issued by HVO on 23rd October, so one day

15 before the previous document. And it is an information and letters signed

16 by commander of HVO Prozor, and also signed by president of HVO, meaning

17 civilian authorities in Prozor, and addressed to military and civilian

18 representatives of Muslims of municipality of Prozor, on 23rd October.

19 Subject matter: Our proposals for overcoming the newly arising political

20 and security situation.

21 A. I can't see what you're reading, I'm afraid.

22 Q. It is on the first page of the translation, so one page back.

23 A. Yes. Thank you, thank you.

24 Q. Well, I would -- I would ask you to pay attention to particularly,

25 for example, for on item 1, [Microphone not activated] they demanding

1 urgent and unconditional cessation of all military operations. So I guess

2 we can comfortably conclude that something was going on. And they are

3 specifically demanding withdrawal of all armed units from the town and

4 they also implies that they are [Microphone not activated] --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Kovacic.

6 MR. KOVACIC:

7 Q. -- army units there. Then I would call the next document, the

8 number being 3D 00122. Unfortunately, it's also a rather lengthy document

9 of two pages. Again -- well, I have to wait.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, when you give the

11 number of the document, are you actually giving us the number that's at

12 the bottom of the page?

13 MR. KOVACIC: No.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm now directing the Defence to

17 the following: When giving the number of the document, it has to be the

18 number under which the electronic version of the document was filed, not

19 an internal Defence number.

20 MR. KOVACIC: I was referring to wrong numbers. Both are in the

21 system but I was not yet trained on that. However, I guess that court

22 officer and my case manager were successful in finding a proper one, even

23 though I cited the wrong number.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vulliamy, this document once again is dated

25 the 23rd, which was definitely before the time when you travelled through

1 the area. This is once again a document coming from the army of Bosnia

2 and Herzegovina, the Main Staff, and its forward command post in Konjic.

3 I would like to direct you to item 3 of the document, where the tasks of

4 the units are described, and on the following page, on page 2, under item

5 3/3, we see the task of the municipal defence staff of Prozor

6 municipality. And in that paragraph, the person who signed the document,

7 Jovan Divjak, says as follows: "Defend firmly current positions and upon

8 arrival of the battalion of the Jablanica municipality staff, prevent

9 seizing of Prozor and undertake measures in order to move the forces or

10 repel forces from Prozor municipality. In discussions with the HVO staff,

11 find measures in order to solve the existing situation."

12 Without going into reading the entire document, and we have it in

13 its entirety here, but without doing that, we can see that some activities

14 were already taking place, and clearly it was happening before this date,

15 the 23rd of October. Although I have many more documents to show you, I

16 have just one more to tender right now.

17 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I would like document number 3D 040016.

18 Yeah. That is the document. I'm sorry, it's not yet on the screen, this

19 screen. We have it here.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, Mr. Kovacic, could I kindly ask you to

21 systematically quote what you call the prenumbering system, which does not

22 bear any 04 number but rather the 3D 00 whatever followed by 3 digits.

23 That would simplify everybody's life. Thank you very much.

24 MR. KOVACIC: So that is the number which I cited previously in

25 previous situation. The judge is giving me signs that he has the

1 document. Yes. That is the document. So this is 3D 00125. Perhaps

2 while we are waiting for the document -- and it is on the screen, okay, it

3 is very short document. Now, this time it is HVO document signed by

4 Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic, that time brigadier, and I think it's

5 sufficiently short.

6 Q. [Interpretation] So based on this document, once again it is

7 clear, it was also issued on the 24th of October, General Petkovic here

8 asks that contacts be established with the warring party. That indicates

9 that something was under way. And then he says that unconditional

10 cease-fire be negotiated. Once again this indicates that the conflict is

11 in progress. And then he orders that movements of units from outside of

12 the conflict area be halted. That is to say units coming to the conflict

13 area, any units. And then he says that truce ought to be established and

14 practically he stops any type of movement.

15 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I think it would be appropriate time

16 and then we conclude this part.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. It's 12.05 now. We

18 will have a break, which will enable the witness to rest and recuperate,

19 and we shall continue with our work at 13.30.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Kovacic, you have

23 the floor.

24 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would kindly ask the

25 court officer to remove the document from the screen which is now on the

1 screen, which is 5D 636. I think that is a document which belongs to

2 Mr. Jonjic, and he will use it later.

3 The last document we have seen on the screen was D 00125 and we

4 are now going to next document and then I will close this story with the

5 documents, but I would like to use this witness to see the one, since it

6 is connected to the Prozor October event. This is document 00137, so

7 3D 00137.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, could you please

9 give us the number at the bottom of the page.

10 Please go ahead.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Kovacic.

12 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry. I would like to ask court officer -- it

13 is not the document I requested. I asked the document 3D 00137. Okay.

14 So I'm sorry, I just warn that this is the English version of the

15 document. I'm sorry.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vulliamy, you can see based on this document

17 that it's the document of the Croatian Defence Council, command of the

18 Rama Brigade, the 5th of November, 1992. And then can we see who signed

19 the document, please? It was signed by several persons: President of the

20 commission, Mijo Jozic, who signed it on behalf of the HVO; commander of

21 the Rama Brigade, Ilija Ramic; and operations officer in the Brigade,

22 Tomislav. All of them members of the HVO. Based on the heading, we can

23 see that this report was drafted at the request of the Main Staff of the

24 HVO, pursuant to order 2437/92, and the subheading, or rather, the subject

25 of this report are causes for the conflict between the HVO and TO. This

1 pertains to Prozor.

2 This is quite an extensive document detailing the chronology of

3 the relations between the HVO and the TO, Territorial Defence, starting in

4 March of 1992. I'm going to skip over that and could we please look at

5 item 4 on page 3 of the document. In the English version, this is on page

6 5. English version page 5. And then further down, yes, yes, we have item

7 4 here. So here in this paragraph, they summarise the consequences of the

8 conflict in terms of casualties, those who were killed and wounded on both

9 sides, as well as damage to facilities. We can see that 11 were dead on

10 the BH army side, 5 on the HVO side, 18 wounded members of the HVO, and

11 unknown number of wounded members of the TO, and some of them hospitalised

12 in the war hospital in Rumboci, and so on. So let us conclude with this.

13 Let me explain to you why I wanted you to see these documents.

14 Mr. Vulliamy, do you agree that the dates given by you, the 24th

15 and the 25th, so when you were in Prozor for the first time, when it was

16 still calm, those can't be accurate dates because, as we established based

17 on this, a serious conflict erupted between the two armies as early as the

18 23rd. Would you agree with that?

19 A. I can see that there were mobilisations from your prior documents,

20 which I'm in no position to dispute. I have tried during the break to

21 clarify the time line. And although I can't give you a precise date of

22 when I made the southbound drive through Prozor, all I can say is that I

23 did not see any of these hostilities and the place appeared to be normal,

24 but I can -- I can help you further with the time line of my whereabouts

25 now or at any point that you want. Shall I do that now? Or do you want

1 me to -- or do you want me to talk about the documents?

2 Q. No, no, thank you. But to conclude this topic, it is certain,

3 regardless of the dates, and it's natural that after 13 years it's

4 difficult for you to specify dates, regardless of which itinerary you had,

5 whether you were going north or going south, regardless of the route you

6 took, so it is obvious that starting on the 23rd and then on the 24th and

7 25th, the events there were quite intense and you saw what was happening

8 there regardless of whether it was two or three days before or after. Do

9 we agree on that?

10 A. Well, I can't agree with regard to at least the area visible from

11 the main street of Prozor itself. In order to help you and the Court,

12 I've taken the liberty - and I hope this is in order - to make a call to

13 the library at the Guardian, and I'm very happy for my phone to be checked

14 for you all to ensure that that's the only communication I've made, simply

15 in order to -- and this pertains to our discussion at the end of

16 yesterday, that we don't have the dates of articles which are readily

17 available to everybody else on the internet outside this courtroom, and I

18 thought that in the interests of helping the Court, it would help if I

19 could give you the dates of three articles to clear up this time line.

20 I spoke to a researcher called Linda McDonald - you're welcome to

21 check that - and anyway, what I have is that the date that the article

22 about the firefight in Novi Travnik was published - published - was the

23 morning of the 24th of October. The date when my article on the events I

24 discussed earlier with Mostar I presume to include the interview with

25 Mr. Boban, although I didn't ask Ms. McDonald for details of the articles,

1 I just wanted the dates, was the 26th of October; and the first article on

2 Prozor was after a northbound drive, and that was on the 28th of October.

3 And that would have been sent from Travnik, as I think I explained in my

4 testimony, on the night of what I now imagine -- and I'm just trying to

5 help with the time line here -- would have been the night of the 27th.

6 I can't give you a date, precise date, for my southbound drive

7 through Prozor when everything was, as I said, fairly normal, but I can

8 give you the likely date of when I drove back up northwards, and that

9 would seem to be the 27th; that is to say, the day before the publication

10 of that first article. I will stand by my testimony that I saw no sign of

11 hostilities from the main road or near the main road on that southbound

12 journey, which must have been between the 26th -- well, it probably was

13 the 26th, but I absolutely stand by my testimony that the dramatic

14 contrast between the relative calm, or indeed the normality of the

15 southbound drive contrasted very dramatically and suddenly with what we

16 found when we drove back up north on what I'm taking to be from this the

17 27th. Of course I note what is in your documents, but there was no sign

18 of fighting let alone heavy fighting when I made the southbound drive.

19 Q. Thank you for the additional explanation. I think that now we

20 have clarified all this in a way. However, this begs a question: In view

21 of the amount of time you spent in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the events you

22 witnessed, on the basis of the explanation you just gave us, and bearing

23 in mind that you went through a town on a certain day and you didn't

24 notice any traces of combat and then three days later you saw them, in the

25 meantime, we see based on documents that there have been some combat

1 activities, some fighting, even when it was not obvious to the naked eye

2 of a traveller going through a town. Can we, based on that, conclude that

3 sometimes, even when one is on the ground, one cannot gather and convey

4 the most reliable information?

5 A. You gather and convey the most reliable information you can. If

6 there was fighting away from that main street, I didn't see it. If you

7 asked me to ratify my testimony that there were civilians out on the

8 street and people coming out of church, which is why I thought it was the

9 weekend, which it doesn't appear to be, I'm sorry, I was not prepared to

10 give a precise date for that southbound drive, then I will ratify that

11 testimony that there was no sign of any hostility of anything like the

12 traces of which we saw when we drove back north. Nor was there any sign

13 of the expulsion of civilians which clearly was the case when we returned

14 the following day, which I take to be the 28th, and I imagine, although I

15 didn't ask Ms. McDonald at the Guardian, there will be a further article

16 about when we found the people in the hillsides. As regards the veracity

17 of this itinerary, I can, if you like, give you the names and

18 organisations of all the people I was travelling with. I was not working

19 alone, so that you can verify any of those dates and reports in

20 publications other than my own by people other than myself, or speak to

21 them, if you want.

22 Q. Yes, Mr. Vulliamy, thank you for your extensive explanation.

23 Essentially, at least in the first portion of your answer, we reached

24 precisely the conclusion that I expressed to you, that when one passes

25 through a town, one doesn't necessarily know everything that's going on

1 there or in the vicinity behind a hill, just two or three kilometres away.

2 That's my point. But let's leave that aside.

3 A. I mean, that -- that's a point but it begs -- it's a question too.

4 You can, by driving through a town, see the difference between the main

5 street of that town when people are out on the streets, civilians, and

6 shopping and in cafes, and when you return back through that town and

7 large numbers of buildings have been incinerated and attacked by shell and

8 small arms fire. That you can see very clearly by passing through the

9 town, and I did.

10 Q. I think that we are not communicating properly. First you confirm

11 that, yes, sometimes one cannot see everything, and in some other

12 situations, yes, it's obvious that you can see that, and I think that you

13 and I fully agree. This stems from the discussion we just had.

14 A. Let's agree that you can't see everything, and nor did, on that

15 southbound journey, I venture into the hinterland between Prozor and

16 Jablanica or any other hinterland, but can we also agree that you can tell

17 a difference between a main street on -- upon which there has been a lot

18 of shooting and shelling and incineration and a main street when there

19 isn't, and I noticed that difference during those two drives through the

20 town in opposite directions.

21 Q. Very well. Let's leave that there. I think we've clarified the

22 matter. There is just one other minor detail I would like to mention.

23 You have just mentioned the entire situation once again. Now it appears

24 that this occurred two or three days subsequent to the date initially

25 provided, and I don't mean to say anything negative when I point this out,

1 this happened a long time ago, but on that day when you saw those refugees

2 there. You don't know why they were in the streets, you don't know what

3 the reason was for their presence in the streets, you didn't know who they

4 were fleeing from, why they were fleeing, you had no reliable information

5 about the matter at that point in time.

6 A. Well, they gave us their account of why they were there, and that

7 was what I published. I was not, as you rightly say, in Prozor when that

8 attack took place or when they fled, but I was talking to them a fairly

9 small distance outside the town shortly after they had fled. Again,

10 precise date, well, I can be quite precise, I think. If my first article

11 filed from Travnik was published on the 28th, then it must have been on

12 that day that I encountered them because we went, as I think I testified,

13 straight back down in pursuit of the -- or in search of the reported 5.000

14 Muslims who had gone missing from the town.

15 Q. Very well. Let me rephrase my question. Apart from what you

16 testified about yesterday, and you have repeated part of your testimony

17 today, the only sources you had with regard to these refugees is what you

18 in fact found out from them in the course of two or three brief

19 conversations; is that correct?

20 A. Well, a number -- a number of conversations that weren't so brief,

21 actually. We spent quite a bit of time up in those hills, and I also, I

22 think, testified that on the road back to Tomislavgrad that night, we were

23 caught in a small convoy, medium-sized convoy of troops, returning to

24 Tomislavgrad and had the conversation with the HVO commander who told us

25 that Prozor was now clean.

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. This is something that we can see in the

2 documents. It's not necessary to go into that now. Since you have

3 mentioned the name of this lady in the Guardian, do you think you could

4 fax those articles to the Court since the Prosecution says they do not

5 have copies of the articles?

6 A. Which articles are these, sorry, the lady?

7 Q. The articles you mentioned with regard to the conversation that

8 you had with the lady from the Guardian. You said that you phoned her,

9 you said you did that two minutes ago and you said she provided you with

10 the dates.

11 A. She provided me with the dates, yes.

12 Q. When you get back to London, do you think you could fax those

13 articles to the Chamber, to the Court?

14 A. I could have them either faxed -- everything is done

15 electronically nowadays. I could have them e-mailed, to any address you

16 give me, at the first opportunity.

17 Q. Would it be possible for your office to send them to us today?

18 Let's leave that matter aside. I apologise.

19 A. I would imagine so, yes.

20 Q. I'd be very grateful if that were possible. Just one other minor

21 detail with regard to Prozor, and with regard to your testimony about the

22 events in Prozor yesterday, well, we saw a video, a short video. P 1784

23 was the exhibit number. I'm not sure that I understood the discussion

24 that followed that. After having seen the video, you said that you

25 weren't sure whether this occurred in October, 1992; is that correct?

1 A. The -- I'll explain as quickly as I can. I made the film during

2 the early part of 1993, as I've explained. The producer of the film did

3 the editing back in London while I was getting on with my work. That

4 footage was chosen by her from the BBC archives and, as far as they are

5 concerned, labelled Prozor during those events. I think I commented on

6 that yesterday. The street looked as I recalled it. The soldiers, I

7 think I, if I recall rightly, said they looked more sort of ruffian than I

8 remember and they didn't have the red ribbons, but that -- the BBC archive

9 chose those pictures while I wasn't in London, while they were editing,

10 putting together the film. That's all I can say with regard to that, I'm

11 afraid.

12 Q. So, Mr. Vulliamy, I must say we mustn't repeat what you said

13 yesterday. You can't say for certain that the video we saw yesterday was

14 related to October, 1992, and to Prozor or Travnik, and that's all the

15 more the case in that you yourself say that what we saw yesterday does not

16 correspond to your recollection of the events, because as you have already

17 said, the soldiers that you saw at the time seemed to be more robust and

18 they had these red ribbons on them whereas the soldiers we saw in the

19 video yesterday didn't have such ribbons. So can we agree that the video

20 we saw yesterday were not necessarily -- was not necessarily footage of

21 the events that you observed in Prozor in 1992? I just want to be certain

22 about this.

23 A. Necessarily, I can't say on oath that I know that footage was shot

24 in Prozor, because I wasn't there and I didn't choose it. Your remarks

25 about the differences, I testified to yesterday, are correct. The

1 atmosphere of sort of looting and incineration and so on was, however,

2 recollective of what I saw in Prozor that day. If you want to pursue this

3 I think you have to do so with the BBC, not me, because I'm not able to

4 help you any further. I apologise.

5 Q. No. Thank you. I won't be contacting the BBC. The Prosecution,

6 basing itself on your knowledge, put forward that video, showed that

7 video. But you cannot claim that the video really relates to Prozor,

8 1992.

9 A. I can say --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Relates to October,

11 1992.

12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I can say that BBC archive included that as

13 footage of Prozor and I took their word for it. I can't say more than

14 that but I trust them more than I trust most media organisations.

15 MR. KOVACIC:

16 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, I think that you have failed to answer my question

17 yet again. My question is quite simple: Are you sure or not?

18 A. Well, I'm not sure, neither am I going to say I'm uncertain.

19 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

20 A. Thank you.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I would like to stress your attention

22 to the list of viva voce witnesses of the Prosecutor which they filed as

23 an annex to pre-trial brief on January 19, and, of course, the table

24 submission of the Prosecution chart linking of 18 April. In this, you can

25 see there are a number of paragraphs which allegedly this testimony today

1 should be related to. And it also includes that the relevant accused is

2 only Mr. Praljak. So I believe, Your Honour, since the Prosecution didn't

3 ask any questions on some of those paragraphs, and I will just use two,

4 perhaps, for example, I would like to ask the witness one or two questions

5 related to, let's say, two paragraphs, so that after we know whether those

6 paragraphs are having any connection with my client or not.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vulliamy, don't concern yourself with what we

8 have just been discussing. These are procedural matters. But I do have

9 to put some questions to you, questions that weren't addressed by you in

10 the course of your testimony, so please be brief since we haven't got much

11 time.

12 In paragraph 7 of the amendment, it says -- indictment, it says

13 that my client held certain positions. My question is as follows: From

14 March, 1992, to July, 1993, do you know that my client was a high-ranking

15 officer of the Croatian army? Are you aware of that fact or not? Please

16 answer by saying yes or no.

17 A. Of the HV, the Croatian army? I wasn't aware of that, no.

18 Q. Did the Prosecution ask you anything about this?

19 A. Not that I recall.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether my client was the assistant

21 minister of defence in Croatia?

22 A. I think I did know that, yes.

23 Q. In the course of your interview with the Prosecution, did the

24 Prosecution put any questions to you with regard to this?

25 A. Not in our conversations about his office in the ministry, no.

1 Sorry any conversations.

2 Q. The transcript will be corrected.

3 Do you know that my client, Mr. Praljak, was responsible for

4 providing information to the Croatian authorities or, rather, to prominent

5 people in the Croatian government, with regard to events in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina during the period March, 1992, to July, 1993? Do you have any

7 such information?

8 A. Yes, I have had such information but I don't know if I knew that

9 particular role at the time when I -- when -- when I met him. I don't

10 think I did know that, no.

11 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Prosecution, this isn't

12 discussed. Do you remember the Prosecution putting any questions to you

13 about this matter?

14 A. About General Praljak's -- this liaison role you've just asked me

15 about; no.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I'm short of

18 time, I won't continue. I think this provides us with sufficient

19 information with regard to paragraph 7 and paragraph 8 in the indictment.

20 I don't think what is stated there has anything to do with us.

21 Q. And just one more brief question since we were discussing Prozor

22 and your trip to Travnik: You were there in Travnik in October, and while

23 you were there, did you hear anything about a certain Stojak being killed?

24 He was the head of the HVO in Travnik and, as a result, Boban visited

25 Travnik.

1 A. I knew that Mr. Boban had visited Travnik. I didn't hear about

2 any particular death. If I did, I don't recall it now. It's possible

3 that it might have been in the articles, but I don't remember that now.

4 Q. Did you in fact receive any concrete information about the reasons

5 for Boban's visit to Travnik during that period?

6 A. I don't recall concrete reasons, no. I remember not reading but

7 having the speech - a speech he made - read to me.

8 Q. Very well, thank you. I have just one more question to put to

9 you, and that will be it. On a number of occasions in the course of your

10 testimony, you said that you usually went to Bosnia and Herzegovina from

11 Croatia. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Usually from Split or from the coast. Until --

13 Q. I apologise.

14 A. -- after a certain date, when I was not able to visit Serbian

15 territory.

16 Q. When you travelled through Croatia, and when you went into Bosnia,

17 did the Croatian authorities obstruct you in any way whatsoever? Did they

18 render your task difficult?

19 A. The Croatian or the Bosnian -- Croatian?

20 Q. Croatian.

21 A. The Croatian, no.

22 Q. No. On those trips, would you come across humanitarian convoys

23 that were going to Bosnia and Herzegovina from Croatia? I'm talking about

24 your stays in Croatia and then in Bosnia, but did you come across any

25 convoys travelling from Croatia to Bosnia?

1 A. Frequently.

2 Q. On the roads from Bosnia and Herzegovina to Croatia, did you ever

3 come across convoys of refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina, refugees who

4 found shelter in Croatia?

5 A. Indeed. I remember in Split part of the hotel we were staying in

6 was -- had refugees, yes, and, of course, I remember some of the convoys.

7 Q. I was just going to ask you about the hotels in Split. They were

8 full and you were in Split quite frequently. Did you ever notice the

9 refugees that had been put up by the Croatian authorities in hotels? Were

10 they only Croats, Serbs, or Muslims, or were all these peoples

11 represented?

12 A. The majority were either Croat or Muslim. There may well have

13 been some Serbs as well but, of course, you couldn't avoid noticing them;

14 they were everywhere.

15 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you so much, Mr. Vulliamy. Thank you for

16 answering my questions. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. [In

19 English] Your Honour, should I now put on -- I would kindly ask that all

20 the documents I used with this -- during this cross, that they are

21 admitted, and I could read the numbers.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's have the numbers.

23 But before we do so, I would like to know something about the legal

24 situation with regard to the three articles dated the 24th of October,

25 1993, on the firefighters in Travnik, the article dated the 26th of

1 October concerning Mostar and Boban, and the article dated the 28th of

2 October, 1993, regarding the events in Prozor. Are these documents that

3 we don't have documents that the witness will provide us with as soon as

4 possible, or are these documents that you will be tendering on your own

5 behalf or are these documents that are of some other kind? What is the

6 nature of these documents?

7 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I think I would first like to see those

8 documents, and then, of course, if there is valuable or relevant

9 information, then I would submit such request. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 So, as they say in English, you're putting these three documents

12 on standby.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but we don't have them at the

14 moment.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have the

16 numbers of your documents, then, please. Mr. Registrar. Please listen

17 carefully.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] To be brief, the Registrar knows

19 that the numbers start with 3D, then there are two zeroes, so I will just

20 read out the last three numbers, if the Registry agrees. 122, 123, 124,

21 125, 141, 137. Your Honours, yesterday you also asked us to inform you

22 about the source of these documents. I am in a position to do so,

23 although I believe that everyone is now aware of the source.

24 On the basis of the documents, document 122 is a document I found

25 when carrying out research. It was found in the Croatian state archives.

1 Document 123 was obtained from the Prosecution. It was an annex

2 to the pre-trial brief.

3 Document 124 is similarly a document I obtained, I located it in

4 the Croatian state archives.

5 Document 125 is likewise a document obtained from the Prosecution

6 pursuant to Rule 68.

7 Document 141 is also a document that I located in the Croatian

8 state archives.

9 And document 137 is a document obtained from the Prosecution. It

10 was one of the Prosecution's annexes to the pre-trial brief. Thank you

11 very much.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I don't want to take too

14 much time on this issue. I do note that a couple of the documents

15 tendered by my learned colleague Mr. Kovacic are indicated as "unofficial

16 office translations." We, the Prosecution, would specifically reserve

17 with respect to those documents which have not been translated by the

18 Tribunal's CLSS. We may revisit the translations of those documents into

19 one of the official languages of the Tribunal once we've had an

20 opportunity to review those translations, and again, that's limited to

21 those translations for which the translation was done by a person or

22 persons other than the official CLSS translations, and those are clearly

23 marked on the documents that have been proffered as "unofficial office

24 translations."

25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may. I perfectly agree with my

1 colleague. Those documents which are presented with unofficial

2 translation, done by my office, of course, are already submitted to the

3 Registry department. Unfortunately, we have not yet received the

4 translations. So as soon as we will get it, we will then consequently

5 change the translations, because I think that the relevant is original and

6 translation, of course, could be changed, upgraded, or any other --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But it seems that there are two

8 documents for which we have official documents, 123 and 125, since they

9 come from the OTP, and these two documents could be given definitive

10 exhibit numbers and the others could be marked for identification.

11 Mr. Registrar, please proceed.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. The following documents

13 are therefore tendered and admitted under the reference 3D 00122, marked

14 for identification.

15 3D 00123, admitted.

16 3D 00124, marked for identification.

17 3D 00125 admitted.

18 3D 00141, marked for identification.

19 3D 00137 marked for identification. Until we receive the final

20 translation for those who are marked for identification. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could we have the

22 next Defence team, please. I see two members of Defence counsel are on

23 their feet. Normally it should be Mrs. Alaburic, unless Mr. Ibrisimovic

24 has something to say.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could

1 we have a brief, one-minute break so that Defence counsel can agree on how

2 the time should be distributed? I'm afraid that if we don't agree on this

3 matter, there might be some confusion. We just need a minute in the

4 courtroom to discuss this matter.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Normally it should be

6 Mrs. Alaburic and then Mr. Jonjic, and you would be the last to take the

7 floor, but if you would like to follow a different order, that is not a

8 problem at all.

9 Mr. Karnavas -- I forgot to mention the fact that Mr. Karnavas

10 will be the last to take the floor.

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we've agreed to try

12 to abide by the schedule and to conclude, or rather, conduct our

13 cross-examination as planned.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

15 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is

16 Ms. Alaburic. I'm here on behalf of General Petkovic. I'm a lawyer from

17 Zagreb. I'll put a series of questions to you that concern your work as a

18 wartime correspondent in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The questions I'll put

19 to you will have to do with areas that I believe to be pertinent to these

20 proceedings.

21 First of all, I would like to define the term of "war

22 correspondent." Would you agree with me if I said that a war

23 correspondent is a journalist who, to a certain extent, works as an

24 investigative journalist because he has to carry out investigations into

25 relevant issues, current and relevant events and relevant individuals, but

1 such a journalist must also be very capable, he must be able to carry out

2 a analytic form of journalism because certain statements and certain

3 events have to be placed within a political and geographical context. So

4 would you agree with me if I said that a war correspondent acts in the way

5 described and combines elements of investigative and analytic journalism?

6 A. Elements of those and elements of a lot of other things too.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I'm interested in the pretext for your going to

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Let's clarify that. You said that you went to

9 Herzegovina for the first time in August, 1992. And you mentioned the

10 fact that at the time, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you were where -- in the

11 area called Republika Srpska and that you reported on the centres held by

12 Bosnian Serbs, and you mentioned Momcilo Krajisnik by name, and you said

13 that you were told that you should be more objective -- you ought to be

14 more objective. I see that you're nodding, or rather, that you're shaking

15 your head. Does that mean that you didn't mention Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik

16 in that context?

17 A. I think I mentioned Nikola Koljevic.

18 Q. Can you tell us exactly in what context it was that you mentioned

19 Nikola Koljevic.

20 A. Yeah, yes. The context was that in -- it was quite a furor that

21 followed our entry into Omarska and Trnopolje. There was a press

22 conference in Belgrade, and Vice-president Koljevic, as he called himself,

23 gave a list of camps in which he said Serbs were being held on the other

24 side. I mean, I didn't get a -- I didn't have a discussion with him. I

25 discussed it with my editors as to how we were best to proceed, whether

1 to, as it were, ride on the back of what we had already done in the

2 Prijedor area, which everybody in the world seemed to be doing, or whether

3 to take this list seriously, and as I think I put it earlier, also in

4 purely journalistic terms, to push the agenda, to go over to the other

5 side, and at the press conference Capljina was marked out as being

6 apparently the worst. There was no mention of Dretelj at the time.

7 Capljina they called it.

8 Q. Tell us, please, whether on that occasion any mention was made of

9 the detention centres which the Bosnian Muslims held and in which it was

10 the Serbs who were incarcerated.

11 A. The one that I recall was Tarcin, which was on the list. There

12 was a tunnel under a road. When I got there -- I did go, we haven't

13 discussed -- sorry. I -- we went there, there was nothing there. There

14 was one that was called Konjic and, with hindsight -- which wasn't drawn

15 attention to, and with hindsight, I wish we had gone there instead of

16 Tarcin. I now know that place by a different name, and I wish that we had

17 gone there instead of Tarcin, where there was nobody.

18 Q. Would it be right for me to conclude that in the summer of 1992,

19 you did not manage to uncover a single detention centre in which there

20 were Bosnian Muslims -- in which Bosnian Muslims held Serbs?

21 A. You are right, yes. And as I've said, had we gone to a place I

22 now know as being called Celebici, then called Konjic, which was not

23 actually the one that they prioritised, with hindsight, as a journalist I

24 wish I had, knowing now what I didn't know then.

25 Q. Tell us, please, do you consider yourself to be somebody who knows

1 the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina very well in all the different

2 entities from 1992 and 1993 as an investigative journalist when you were

3 reporting from that area?

4 A. Well, I know and saw quite a lot. I don't think anyone can claim

5 to have seen everything, and there were whole tranches of the country

6 which were simply out of bounds; markedly the Drina valley, we know about

7 such things, and some of the smaller villages were simply impossible to

8 get to, but as I think this is a rather hectic itinerary we discussed with

9 your colleague shows one was moving around against the odds as best one

10 could.

11 Q. Yes. I don't doubt that. My question didn't refer to whether you

12 knew everything. Of course, you couldn't have known everything, but do

13 you are you consider yourself to be well-versed in the circumstances that

14 prevailed in Bosnia-Herzegovina from the aspect of a wartime

15 correspondent, professional criteria, the criteria of professional

16 journalist?

17 A. I consider myself to have tried as -- to have tried very hard to

18 cover the war at, or the conflict or whatever we are going to call it, at

19 as close a range as possible, which was sometimes at very close range, and

20 very frightening.

21 I don't like it, by the way. There is a certain kind of

22 journalist, when you talk about war correspondents, who did nothing but

23 war, and there were some people there. I'm not a war correspondent. I

24 get assigned to areas of conflict from time to time but I'm not one of

25 these people who -- and they do exist, and in fact if it is pertinent,

1 take you up on your definition of war correspondent. I'm not one of those

2 people who skip from war to war, as do some. I don't like them and I find

3 them very frightening.

4 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, would you agree with the assertion that a journalist

5 can do his job well, the job of reporting well, under wartime

6 circumstances and events, if he spends a certain amount of time in the

7 relevant territory, if he has the right people to talk to and relevant

8 sources of information, and if he gets to know a social and political

9 system, the social and political system of the country he's going to?

10 Would that be the basic prerequisites for good journalism to your mind?

11 A. There are many things that you have to be able to do to do good

12 journalism in an area of conflict. I worked very hard in the area around

13 Prijedor with almost no contacts, as you put it, amongst the Bosnian Serb

14 authorities that were of any use. One just simply came across them as one

15 came across them. One was able to work there like that simply by joining

16 a convoy of deportees. So as regards knowledge of the political

17 situation, yes, we've discussed this political dimension, I've said I'm

18 not a political reporter, but obviously you can't be ignorant of political

19 developments. And what was it you said, spend time with? Sorry. I

20 didn't remember everything you said in your question. Spend time with?

21 Certain people. You mean in the political arena? I didn't spend very

22 much time with political leaders during the conflict. We have talked

23 about Mr. Boban, I've met Dr. Karadzic, and apart from in Sarajevo I don't

24 recall meeting hardly any members of the government, SDA Party.

25 Q. And tell us, please, whether, according to the rules of the

1 profession of journalist, you can fully understand statements, for example

2 the kind that Mate Boban made, about the political system in Herceg-Bosna

3 and its organisation, if you don't know at least something about that

4 community and territory and its political system. So that's what I meant

5 when I asked you about politics.

6 A. I think I've, in response to General Praljak, admitted that I do

7 not have, as it were, a Bosnian Croatian's -- Bosnian Croat lawyer's

8 knowledge of the constitution, and I've admitted to that, but I do, did,

9 and I think I still can recall, certainly did have, what could be called

10 the layman on the ground on a fast learning curve idea of what it is that

11 Mr. Boban was talking about and what Herceg-Bosna was intended to be, yes.

12 Q. [No interpretation]. [Interpretation] You said that --

13 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, we are not getting the English

14 translation of this question.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation].

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. If we agree that the time a journalist spends in a certain area is

18 one of prerequisites for knowing the situation and circumstances in that

19 area well, and I think we will agree on that, I would like to carry on

20 from what Mr. Peter Murphy asked you, my learned colleague, when he asked

21 you about the amount of time you spent in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'd like to

22 follow on from that and arrive at some concrete facts. Your answer to him

23 was that it was a question of days, or rather, a matter of days was what

24 the transcript read. Now, from that answer, may we correctly deduce that

25 you spent not months in Herceg-Bosna but days, that it was a matter of

1 days, as you said.

2 A. Oh, that I think was, if I recall rightly - and correct me if I'm

3 wrong - your colleague was asking about a specific visit in August, 1992,

4 when we went to the camp at Capljina. No. I was there in Herzegovina and

5 in Herceg-Bosna and in Bosnia and Herzegovina for an awful lot longer than

6 a matter of days if you're talking over a period of time. I thought that

7 was a question about one specific visit in August, 1992. No. I was

8 there, I don't know how many days in total but I was there for a long time

9 during 1992 and 1993, on and off, but not just a matter of days in total,

10 no.

11 Q. I tried, on the basis of your testimony yesterday, to count the

12 number of days which you specified you had spent in certain parts of

13 Herceg-Bosna and within that framework in Herzegovina, and this is the

14 figure I arrived at: That in Herzegovina you spent less than some 10 days

15 in the period between August 1992 and September 1993. And when I say

16 days, I counted every day you were there independently of the number of

17 hours you spent there. And if to that I add several weeks in Travnik at

18 the beginning of 1993, and other time you spent in Central Bosnia, Vitez

19 and Travnik, it would emerge that during that period of time, you spent a

20 total of about 30 days in the area, roughly 30 days. Of course, we cannot

21 be precise to the day, but would that calculation of mine, based on

22 yesterday's testimony, be roughly correct, do you think?

23 A. I haven't done a count, but I doubt it. 10 days in Herzegovina

24 during a year and 30 days in all? I would -- it's -- no, I can't agree

25 with that low figure. I mean, I've been talking about specific episodes

1 pertinent to the questions I've been asked. I was -- I was in -- you

2 mentioned January, 1993, beginning of 1993. You said several weeks in

3 Travnik. It was Travnik and Kiseljak. I think I talked about how we were

4 moving between the two, and in Vitez. No. I haven't done a day count.

5 You have. My recollection is that I've spent a lot more time than that in

6 -- in Herzegovina and in Bosnia-Herzegovina during -- between those dates

7 you mentioned. A lot more.

8 Q. You also told us that you noticed drastic differences in the

9 situations in the different localities, between one of your visits and

10 another; Travnik, Mostar, et cetera. Tell us, a journalist who does not

11 spend a permanent amount of time in a given area but just comes in from

12 time to time, is it relatively difficult for him to understand the reasons

13 for the changes that take place and for the sequence of events?

14 A. Well, you note the changes and then you try and find out what they

15 were. I mean, if you drive from Kiseljak to Vitez, and almost all the

16 houses are -- or all the houses are occupied and untouched, and then

17 another time you drive up the same road and some of them are burned out

18 and there are signs of gunfire and shellfire, and then you drive up a

19 third time sometime later and very few of them are inhabited or occupied,

20 then, I mean, yes, you notice the difference, and you start to try and

21 find out what's happened.

22 Q. And would you agree with me that attempts of that kind, that is to

23 say your attempts to establish what had happened, you have to rely on

24 information received from other people. Is that right?

25 A. In general.

1 Q. If you could give us brief answers, please, and then we will be

2 able to get through more questions. You enumerated yesterday -- you told

3 us yesterday all the people that you -- please go ahead.

4 A. In the main, you get your information from civilians who are still

5 there where they were a time ago, from refugees who aren't where they were

6 a time ago, and from the various armed forces, soldiers and official

7 people. That's generally who you talk to.

8 Q. Yes, yes. When you enumerated the people you talked to during

9 1992 and 1993, and I'm only referring to the Herceg-Bosna area, you

10 mentioned today two talks with Mate Boban, Mr. Mate Boban, in August,

11 1992, and in October, 1992, and also the talk you had in October, 1992,

12 with Mr. Lasic in Mostar, and on the 24th of October with Mr. Siljeg in

13 Tomislavgrad. And then you mentioned a name on the Croatian side,

14 Mr. Sakota, and that was in September, 1993. From your definitions of

15 your collocutors would it be right to assume that you did not talk to

16 anybody else who had a position either in the civilian or military

17 structures of power and authority in Herceg-Bosna?

18 A. That would not be right. I've spent a lot of time with - I think

19 I did mention him - Filipovic of the HVO in Travnik. I think I did

20 mention that I was actually effectively a guest of the HVO in Travnik on

21 one particular occasion and other occasions. I think I mentioned another

22 senior officer, I think he might even have been the commander in Travnik,

23 called Pokrajcic, and also, you know, one does spend a lot of time with

24 soldiers. I mean, if we are talking about it's not Herceg-Bosna, talking

25 about the HVO, I was with them up near a place called Tesanj, towards the

1 north, for a long time in Tuzla with the HVO there, and one does spend

2 time of an evening wherever one is, Tomislavgrad, Mostar, chatting to

3 soldiers, but you said authority. But there may be others. I'll try and

4 think. I'm sure there are.

5 Q. Thank you. And I apologise, perhaps I wasn't precise enough as to

6 Mr. Filipovic. Of course I didn't forget him, but my question related to

7 your interviews, the interviews you conducted in the area of Herzegovina.

8 Tell us now, please, when you were preparing for the interview, for an

9 interview, for an interview with Mr. Mate Boban specifically, did you in

10 fact prepare yourself for that interview?

11 A. For the first one, not in terms of the actual preparation. I

12 hadn't -- I mean, I knew who he was and I had read about him, but I didn't

13 do an actual sort of what one calls a library search. By the time I got

14 to second one, October, I knew much more about him and his past and where

15 he came from, and in a way the preparation for the interview I'd say one

16 had done by being in Novi Travnik and Mostar during the previous few days

17 because that's what we wanted to talk about.

18 Q. Tell us, please, within the frameworks of your preparations for

19 that interview, did you try and learn what the Croatian Community of

20 Herceg-Bosna was in the first place; when it was established, why it was

21 established, whether there were any documents on its establishment, things

22 of that kind?

23 A. Yes. I'm not sure that I -- I read about it and talked about it

24 and I know it was established before the war, and I read about the

25 reasons, yes, as discussed with Mr. Boban, in fact, about the -- the

1 Croatian people and their rights within Bosnia-Herzegovina and so on. But

2 as -- as I recall, it was actually established before I met -- certainly

3 before I met Mr. Boban, obviously, but also before the war broke out in

4 Bosnia.

5 Q. Yes. Right. Tell us now, please, within the frameworks of your

6 preparing for the interview, did you try and see what -- which

7 municipalities made up Herceg-Bosna?

8 A. I probably did but I can't remember which of them -- I mean, I

9 presume it was all of Herzegovina. I can't now remember how far north

10 Herceg-Bosna went in terms of municipalities when it was established in

11 1991. We talked a lot about Travnik. I can't remember whether that was

12 part of it.

13 Q. From your statement, according to which you said you were

14 surprised when Mate Boban in the autumn or October -- in October came to

15 Travnik and declared Travnik to be part of Herceg-Bosna, one could

16 conclude that you really didn't know that Travnik, pursuant to a decision

17 on the establishment of Herceg-Bosna, was one of the municipalities within

18 the frameworks of Herceg-Bosna. Or from that attitude of yours, one could

19 conclude that you didn't have a lot of knowledge about Herceg-Bosna, the

20 place that you were reporting about.

21 A. I've just said I don't recall whether I knew whether Travnik was

22 part of it, of Herceg-Bosna. What surprised me, that it was that simply

23 it was being claimed when - and correct me if I'm wrong - it's quite an

24 important town, strategically and historically, with a Muslim majority.

25 Q. The substance of my remark was that you knew about the decision --

1 had you known about the decision to -- on the establishment

2 [indiscernible] you would not have been surprised with the visit to

3 Travnik or that Travnik was indeed a municipality within Herceg-Bosna, and

4 that was in October, 1992. Now, tell us, within -- while you were

5 preparing for your

6 interview for Mr. Boban, and probably for the other persons that you

7 interviewed, did you try to establish what discussions had been held on

8 the territorial organisation and establishment of Bosnia-Herzegovina prior

9 to that and the kind of debates and discussions that were going on and

10 when they became topical?

11 A. Well, one tried to follow it as best one could. This -- these --

12 these discussions, as you say, were being conducted on all sorts of

13 different levels, many of them in secret. Many of them in -- in -- let's

14 say fairly hostile political debates. I talked before about rumours of

15 meetings between Mr. Boban and Mr. Karadzic, which he denied. There were

16 rumours about meetings, although neither came from Bosnia, about Bosnia,

17 between President Tudjman and President Milosevic. I mean, these

18 negotiations one tried to keep up as best one could, and often one was

19 being told something different by different people. So what -- I can say

20 that we tried, yes.

21 Back to your point about -- about Travnik, I suppose in -- perhaps

22 I was wrong to be surprised, it's just that I referred to its Muslim

23 majority. Perhaps most of the people in Travnik didn't see themselves as

24 part of Herceg-Bosna. That's the point I was trying to make.

25 Q. Would you agree with me, Mr. Vulliamy, that there was not a single

1 discussion and debate on the establishment and organisation of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina without it including territorial separation demarcation

3 between the three constituent peoples? Do you know of a single agreement

4 or a single set of negotiations without that?

5 A. Well, there was the -- there was the referendum of independence

6 and there is the constitution, but I recognise that the constitution does

7 include various elements that acknowledge the existence of the three,

8 indeed and other, peoples in that country. And I'm also aware that over

9 three years of failed peace plans also tried to take all these things into

10 account.

11 Q. Just one digression from this question to avoid any

12 misunderstandings. When I asked you about the establishment of

13 Herceg-Bosna, your answer was that it was established before the war. I

14 think that it is page 95 of the transcript. Could you explain which war

15 you meant and which year you had in mind.

16 A. I'm sorry, of course, please correct me if I'm wrong, as I

17 understand it, the Croatian Community, or I've also seen the term Croatian

18 Union of Herceg-Bosna was established in 1991, by which I meant before the

19 referendum, independence and hostilities began in Bosnia in spring, 1992,

20 but obviously not before what we'll call the wars that began the break-up

21 of Yugoslavia in 1991.

22 Q. When you speak of war and hostilities in your previous sentence,

23 do you mean hostilities between the Croats and Muslims or hostilities in

24 general on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. When I talk about the beginning of the war in Bosnia? No, I would

1 -- I would date that from the first -- well, I don't mind calling it the

2 aggression in a courtroom, by the Bosnian Serbs, in the Drina valley and

3 in north-western Bosnia above all, and against Sarajevo.

4 Q. Do you know that at the end of 1991, the JNA, with the Bosnian

5 Serbs, attacked a Croatian place in Herzegovina, and that that is

6 considered the beginning of the war in Herceg-Bosna, with the Yugoslav

7 People's Army and the Bosnian Serbs. And from this it would emerge that

8 Herceg-Bosna was established after the beginning of the war but the war

9 between the Serbs and Croats. Do you know about that? Are you aware of

10 it?

11 A. I became aware of it in -- during 1992. I wasn't aware of it when

12 it happened. It was discussed, yes, by people in Herzegovina who talked

13 about it, yeah.

14 Q. From your testimony yesterday, I gained the impression that you do

15 not differentiate between the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council, as a

16 military structure of authority, as an army, from the HV [as interpreted]

17 as the government and the civilian component of authority. Is my

18 conclusion correct? When you speak about the HVO as a civilian military

19 authority, from which it would emerge that we are doing a -- dealing with

20 a unified body which is in charge of both civilian and military matters,

21 and on the basis of that statement of yours, we could conclude that you do

22 not distinguish between civilian and military establishment in

23 Herceg-Bosna. Would my conclusion be correct?

24 A. No. With respect. I certainly -- I certainly do make a

25 distinction between the HVO and the HV. I know that one is the armed

1 forces of -- of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and the other is

2 the army of Croatia.

3 Q. [In English] Excuse me. [Interpretation] I apologise but there

4 has been a mistake in the transcript. It is page 97, line 16. I did not

5 mention the HV, the Croatian army, but the HVO, the HVO. It's the mistake

6 of the interpretation, so it's the HVO. We are not talking about the HV

7 at all. It's the HVO.

8 A. Understood. Let me just reread the question, if I may. Well,

9 when I quoted -- when I used that expression, "civilian military

10 authority" that links the two together, I was quoting, as I recall - I

11 don't know what his rank is - Lasic - was it Lasic? - Lasic, in Mostar.

12 And I mean, given the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time, one

13 understands a coupling between civilian and military, but I do understand

14 that there were -- that there were, as it were, civilian and military or

15 entwined civilian and military columns within the HVO and in its relations

16 to the HDZ. And I do understand that, for instance, that whereas Mate

17 Boban was a civilian, General Praljak was a military man. I do make a

18 distinction that they had different job descriptions, albeit perhaps a

19 common cause.

20 Q. If I were to tell you that Mate Boban had nothing to do with the

21 HVO, would that affect your conclusion?

22 A. Well, if you tell me he didn't, I would believe you because you

23 know more about it than I do, about the structures, but judging from the

24 meetings with him and the language that he used during those meetings, and

25 the -- and the people who were in his headquarters, particularly the

1 second and third ones in Grude, and the way that he talked about the HVO,

2 one would be given to believe that he was very close to it and would

3 regard himself as having influence if not authority, as a civilian,

4 influence in -- over its movements albeit, as you rightly say, formally

5 not direct command over it because he's not a military man, but he spoke

6 about the -- the HVO as though he was not entirely distant from it.

7 I would add that when we waited for him to -- for his meeting to

8 break up in the cellar before our second conversation, well, all of his

9 company were military men and most of them were in the HVO, if not all of

10 them.

11 Q. I will now conclude our discussion on this topic by saying that

12 you really are not well familiar with either civilian or military

13 structure.

14 Now I would like to put a question to you pertaining to Mate

15 Granic and what you stated on page 81, line 12 and 13, of yesterday's

16 transcript; namely, that Mate Granic, Croatian foreign minister, in July

17 of 1993, stated that Croatia was prepared to help with the mass

18 deportation of 50.000 people and that in that context a meeting was held

19 in Makarska in order to implement this deportation. Did I interpret your

20 yesterday's evidence correctly? I was trying to quote it.

21 A. You did. I wasn't at that meeting. I was told about it by people

22 who had, from the United Nations High Commission on Refugees.

23 Q. In his book, "Foreign Affairs, Behind the Scenes of Politics,"

24 described this meeting, Mr. Granic, and among other things, said that that

25 meeting was attended by the government representatives of Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina as well as the BH army representatives, headed by

2 Vice-president Hadzo Efendic. Then he continued on to say that several BH

3 government ministers attended the meeting as well, including Hasan

4 Muratovic and Kasim Trnka. I don't think there is any reason to distrust

5 Mr. Mate Granic when he writes about this in this book. He was himself

6 present at the meeting. Therefore I would like to ask you whether you

7 truly believe that those attending the meeting in early July of 1993 truly

8 discussed that issue, namely how to deport 50.000 people from

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina or were they perhaps trying to find a solution to this

10 very important issue?

11 A. I reported what they told me. They didn't tell me the names that

12 you've just mentioned. They told me they had been at the meeting, that

13 was the bit of the agenda they discussed, and the bit of the agenda that I

14 testified to yesterday, having been told what they told me.

15 Q. Also in relation to Mr. Mate Granic, yesterday you said something

16 recorded on page 102 of the transcript, namely that in September of 1993,

17 Mr. Sakota, before the visit of the Red Cross -- so Mr. Sakota told you

18 that before the visits of the Red Cross, Mr. Granic had called, telling

19 him to improve the conditions at the detention centre. Could you please

20 clarify the meaning of what you said. Did you say this in the context

21 implying that Mr. Granic was aware of detention centres but was only

22 trying to improve conditions there and keep them at this improved level,

23 or were you trying to say something different?

24 A. I don't know what Mr. Granic was or wasn't aware of, but I take it

25 he must have been aware of the existence of these places to have made the

1 call at all. I was reporting what Mr. Sakota told me, that he had

2 received this phone call and had been asked to, I think it was some -- I

3 don't recall the exact quote, it's something to the effect of make these

4 people's lives a bit easier. But I can't tell you what Mr. Granic did or

5 didn't know.

6 Q. No, no. I'm not asking you that. I'm not asking you about what

7 Mr. Granic knew. I'm just trying to establish what meaning you ascribed

8 to that, and thus I'm asking you this: Are you familiar with all the

9 activities conducted by Mr. Granic starting from July, 1993, onwards,

10 aimed at terminating, disbanding detention centres and, in the meantime at

11 least, improving conditions therein?

12 A. I didn't know specifically about disbanding detention centres but

13 I knew from newspaper reports that he was, if I recall rightly, and --

14 that he was not regarded as necessarily one of those in Zagreb who

15 particularly agreed with some of the things that were going on. That he

16 was active in negotiations and so on. But I didn't -- I wasn't aware of

17 any particular demands by him with regard to camps.

18 Q. Thank you. I have several more minutes left before 3.00 and I'd

19 like to use that time. When you were telling us about your conversation

20 with Mr. Mate Boban, you said that almost identical positions on cantons

21 were contained in Vance-Owen Plan, and that the HVO, in a jocular way,

22 referred to that plan as "Thank you, Vance-Owen." Are you familiar with

23 the plans of the international community about the territorial structure

24 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the plans that existed before July of 1993?

25 A. Yes. I think there were various plans. I mean, forgive me,

1 madam, there were so many plans that after the event, they -- I remember

2 the headline in Oslobodjenje: "Clinton Trazi Novi Plan." Another one.

3 Yes. There were the those that arose I think out of the London summit of

4 August, 1992, I think even various attempts before then, but certainly I

5 was aware that Lord Owen and Cyrus Vance, when they were appointed, were

6 not the first, but you'll have to forgive me. If I have to go through

7 them all, the Carrington, Cyrus Vance, Owen, Washington, Geneva, I'm not

8 sure that I can recall the details of each and every one. I remember an

9 extraordinary arrangement of maps and various ideas, but at the time I was

10 following them very carefully and I would not guarantee that I can

11 remember the details of each one now.

12 Q. That was precisely the thrust of my previous question. Did you

13 know that there was a single conversation where the borders and maps were

14 not discussed? Borders and maps within Bosnia and Herzegovina. Now I'd

15 like to turn to this: Do you know of any country where there are several

16 peoples residing there, peoples who have the status of constituent nations

17 without that country having a complex structure in the sense that it's a

18 federation, confederation, it's a country with cantons; simply speaking, a

19 country with a complex internal structure?

20 A. I can think of countries with complex internal structures that

21 were not born of violence.

22 Q. I'm not asking you about violence. I'm putting a principled

23 question to you and I think it will be quite important for us to see how

24 you interpreted the statements of Mate Boban and the events in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So do you know of a single country which would not

1 have a complex structure and which would have two or more constituent

2 peoples residing there?

3 A. Yes. But I stick with my first answer. This discourse was

4 happening in an atmosphere of violence, and I thought at the time it

5 entailed violence, and it did. But yes, I do, and he knew -- he knows

6 them too. Switzerland is one of them, Belgium.

7 Q. Switzerland is a complex country, as far as I'm aware. It has six

8 cantons, so I don't think that that's a proper example for my question.

9 A. I only mentioned it because he did and because it has people who

10 speak three languages and I actually didn't know how many cantons

11 Switzerland had.

12 Q. Since yesterday, and today, when asked by General Praljak today,

13 you said that you were a bit tired of the use of the word "narod" meaning

14 people. I have to ask you this, and this will be quite useful in order to

15 properly evaluate your answers provided both yesterday and today: Do you

16 know that in order to protect the rights of a people -- do you know of any

17 other way of protecting the rights of a people without guaranteeing them a

18 constitutive status? In other words, in your view, when founding a state

19 exclusively on the basis of rights of citizens as individual --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are putting the same

21 question as that put by Mr. Praljak, and the Prosecution objected to that

22 question. Please go ahead, Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Again for the record, Mr. President, we object. This

24 has gone way beyond the realm of this witness's testimony and this is now

25 into the level of a complex political discussion, which really has little

1 or no relevance to the case.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to

3 conclude very soon, because we have to take a break, but prior to that I

4 have to repeat to Defence counsel, you are putting political questions

5 and, yes, you are allowed to do that. However, bear in mind that here, at

6 this Tribunal, political context is mentioned in each judgement, sometimes

7 in the annex of the judgement, but at any rate it doesn't take more than

8 two or three pages. The Judges have to evaluate criminal responsibility

9 in a particular factual context, and all the time that you use up for such

10 questions - and you can use up as much time as you want - is not going to

11 be properly reflected in the judgement because the Judges will not

12 evaluate this, and thus I have to intervene in view of the rules on

13 cross-examination pursuant to Rule 90. You have to bear in mind that you

14 have to phrase your questions in such a way as to elicit answers which

15 will have legal value for your clients.

16 We are not here to investigate history; no. We are here to decide

17 on criminal responsibility.

18 It's 3.00 ten minutes now. We will make a 20-minute break, but

19 before we do that, let me remind you that the Prosecutor had four hours to

20 examine this witness. Based on our calculations so far, and I will ask

21 that our legal officer confirm this, based on our calculations you have

22 already used up 162 minutes and you have 78 minutes left and there are

23 three more Defence teams, including yourself. Or rather, three plus

24 yourself. We will resume at 3.25.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.08 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We have another hour

3 and a half left. Mrs. Alaburic, please go ahead.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded with

5 my portion of the cross-examination, and out of respect to the Chamber, my

6 colleagues and Mr. Vulliamy, I would like to say this, in view of my last

7 question: It wasn't my intention to elicit any kind of a political remark

8 from the witness. However, it's been 14 years since this witness talked

9 to Mate Boban and yet he was still able to quote his words as to why he

10 was unable to accept the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina and why he

11 believed cantonal structure to be appropriate for Bosnia-Herzegovina. And

12 the witness very emotionally - at least, that's how I read it - told us

13 that he was very tired of how the word "narod" was used in the former

14 Yugoslavia. Therefore, based on that, I thought it important to put this

15 question to distinguish between a civic state and a state which has

16 nations as constituent elements because I believe that views on that

17 affect somebody's way of reporting. As for the reports and their style, I

18 believe that they had some political side to them, which is normal. And

19 that's what I wanted to say by way of explanation and it seems to me that

20 the witness would like to say something as well.

21 THE WITNESS: I was asked -- may I, Your Honour? Because at the

22 beginning of that, you did ask a question about, as it were, there wasn't

23 a political question, it was about my interpretation of the word "narod,"

24 and I'm grateful for that because, you know, when I said I was wary of the

25 word, I'm not casting aspersions on anybody's identity, culture, history,

1 language. What I meant was I was wary of its use and deployment in the

2 former Yugoslavia by then. I was wary with what people were doing with

3 it. And throughout 1991, and I know this is elsewhere, I'd listened to

4 people tell me that wherever there were the "Srpski narod" was Serbia.

5 I'd heard it in Knin and in Eastern Slavonia, which are both in Croatia,

6 and I saw what the deployment of that word had done.

7 It's not the word that I was wary of, nor do I mean any offence to

8 a people's identity or history or culture or whatever. What I was wary of

9 was the way in which that word was being used by people to precede acts of

10 violence, and that was in particular during the second conversation with

11 Mr. Boban when he said that the Croatian "narod" was armed and ready to

12 defend its freedom, in the light of what I had experienced in terms of the

13 use of that word, I was wary of the way in which it was being used, not --

14 by way of casting aspersions on any culture or identity.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you kindly for your explanations. That's precisely how I

17 interpreted your words and this is why I wanted to direct your attention

18 the word "narod" as a constituent element in the theory of a creation of a

19 state. But I think that we've devoted enough time to this issue. I want

20 to thank the witness.

21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Jonjic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vulliamy, my name is Tomislav

24 Jonjic. I will be putting questions to you on behalf of Mr. Valentin

25 Coric. These questions will cover some of the topics mentioned previously

1 by my colleagues but I'll try to explore some other angles and some other

2 details which I believe to be important.

3 Today, when asked by Mr. President and then later on when asked by

4 some other colleagues, you said that you did not deal exclusively with

5 analytical journalism but also combined it with investigative journalism

6 and that that entailed quite complex and detailed preparations. Can you

7 please tell us, the first time when you came to Bosnia-Herzegovina, what

8 did you know then about Bosnia and Herzegovina? How did you prepare

9 yourself? What did you read and who briefed you?

10 A. I thought -- I think I have at least begun to answer your question

11 already. I did not have -- I'm not an expert on the Balkans. I had what

12 I would call an informed layman's view of the history of Yugoslavia. I

13 had read books on the history of Yugoslavia during the Croatian war of

14 independence in 1991. By the time I got to Bosnia-Herzegovina, I had what

15 I'll call a layman's knowledge. As I say, my work was not -- I wasn't a

16 commentator or a columnist; there were plenty of people doing that who

17 were experts on Balkan history. I was assigned there as a journalist, but

18 when you say "investigative," it usually means something else. It means

19 exposing corruption, or long-term investigations. It wasn't necessarily

20 my job to analyse politically as a Balkan expert the situation, but it

21 was, I agree and accept entirely, my job to understand it as best as I

22 could.

23 Q. Very well. Thank you. You mentioned that you used the

24 transportation of the British Battalion of UNPROFOR, in view of the

25 existing roads in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Did I understand you well that

1 the members of British Battalion transported you several times from one

2 location to the next one?

3 A. Not many times, no. I accompanied them in my own car on a number

4 of occasions, including one in which we were quite seriously and

5 frighteningly ambushed by the Serbs, but I didn't use their vehicles very

6 much at all, no. If I gave that impression before, it was wrong.

7 Q. Did the commanders or officers of the British Battalion give you

8 some instructions or information about what was going on on the ground?

9 A. They did, yes, in two different ways. One was informal, and I

10 wouldn't say off the record but it was informal and that was when we would

11 be based in Vitez, where they were also based, and sometimes we would eat

12 in their canteen, if there was nowhere else to do so. And then the second

13 level, they gave fairly -- towards -- I mean after a while, they gave

14 formal press briefings, with maps on developments, front line movements

15 and, of course, their own activities.

16 Q. Thank you. You, as a British journalist, undoubtedly are well

17 aware of the fact that in a part of the British press and also in the

18 publishing industry and also historiography, there are some unfavourable

19 opinions about the history of the British Battalion and generally about

20 the role that Britain played in the wars in the former Yugoslavia.

21 A. I'd like to think that -- I can't speak for the whole British

22 press. I'd like to think that where there were -- credit where it was

23 due, criticism where it was due, but for the most part straight reporting.

24 I'm not aware of any unnecessary -- didactic hostility apart from perhaps

25 extreme left-wing publications that I don't take so seriously which were

1 talking about imperialism and stuff. That didn't interest me. I'm not

2 quite clear on what you're referring to.

3 Q. I don't think there is any need to go into greater detail

4 regarding that. I would just like to ask you several things to try to

5 establish how well you were aware of the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina. If

6 I understood you well, on page 20 of today's transcript -- yes, page 20,

7 of today's transcript, lines 15 through 18, you mentioned that it was only

8 during your last visit to Mostar, which was in February of 1994, that you,

9 to your great surprise, realised that the BH army controlled several

10 blocks of buildings on the western bank of the Neretva River.

11 A. During my first visit I wasn't aware that they had territory on

12 the other side, that's correct. On the west side. I learned that

13 actually in between my two visits, and during my February visit wanted to

14 have a look at the state of things on the western side of the river.

15 Q. And that is when you realised that the ABiH also had some

16 territory in the western side of the river under its control?

17 A. Yes. In between my visits in September and February, I learned

18 that from other reports, but I didn't know that in September when I first

19 went, that's correct.

20 Q. Very well. In your statement given in 1997, and also in the

21 testimony that you gave yesterday, you said that you once met Mate Boban

22 when he was celebrating the fact that Stjepan Kljujic had been replaced,

23 or rather, he had been appointed the head of the Croatian Community of

24 Herceg-Bosna authorities. You said that Kljujic was moderate and he was

25 replaced by Mate Boban who was not moderate. Have I understood that part

1 of your statement correctly?

2 A. I can't remember whether I used the words "moderate" or "not

3 moderate" as succinctly as that but the gist is correct. I had a long

4 conversation subsequently with Mr. Kljujic about that episode. He called

5 it a putsch. His word, not mine.

6 Q. With the help of the usher I'd now like to show you a document

7 that comes under 65 ter, P -- D 00049. That's the document. Have a look

8 at the first column on the left and have a look at the first part of the

9 second column. It's an article from a publication called Croatian

10 Monitor, dated the 24th of May, 1992. It's called a historical agreement

11 between Croats and Muslims. For the sake of the transcript I would like

12 to point out that it is an opposition publication, not a governmental

13 publication, in the Republic of Croatia, and as you can see -- as a

14 journalist you're probably used to reading through articles very quickly.

15 You can see that they mention historical meeting that was held in Split on

16 the 17th and 18th of May, 1992. You can see that it was a meeting of the

17 HDZ from Bosnia-Herzegovina and of the SDA. The HDZ from

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina was represented by the then representative,

19 Mr. Miljenko Brkic. On that occasion, an agreement was reached, and at

20 the bottom of the page, if we can see it, have a look at the part that has

21 been underlined. You can see that both sides reached an agreement on a

22 confederal relationship between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia. As a

23 result, the agreement reached in Graz had been revoked, the agreement

24 between the Croats and the Serbs, and in the last line, it says all the

25 parties in Croatia were unanimous in greeting, in accepting this new

1 Croatian-Muslim agreement which was approved by Alija Izetbegovic. You

2 can find this at the top of the second column.

3 It follows that Stjepan Kljujic wasn't immediately replaced by

4 Mate Boban, which is the impression one gains on the basis of your

5 testimony. However, what is more important is that I'd like to know that

6 when you arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina in August, 1992, at that time

7 were you aware of the fact that there were such agreements between Croats

8 and Muslims?

9 A. Yes, I was. I don't recall whether I knew about this specific

10 meeting, but indeed I did know that there were agreements between the

11 Croats and the Muslims. And interestingly, that's the first confirmation

12 I've heard about the -- seen about the former agreement between Mate Boban

13 and the Bosnian Serbs.

14 Q. If you read through this carefully, you'll see that it's not

15 referring to an agreement but to a meeting in Graz, not an agreement.

16 A. I'm at the wrong bit of the page. There was something about the

17 revocation of something.

18 Q. You've got the right page but it's right up at the top. Or in

19 fact we are looking at the top. If we can just have a look at the bottom.

20 Can you scroll down, please. Have a look at the part that has been

21 underlined. It's the last paragraph.

22 A. Yes, it's the word "annul."

23 Q. It starts with the words "With this meeting ..." and you can also

24 see the words "the recent meeting" appearing in that part. It says "the

25 recent meeting" not "the recent agreement," something to that effect.

1 A. I stand corrected, it does say"meeting." I'm not quite sure how

2 you annul a meeting, but anyway.

3 Q. That's something that we'll establish in the course of the

4 proceedings. Thank you very much.

5 Now with the help of the usher I would like to show you another

6 document. It's a 65 ter document. 5D 00064 is the number of the document

7 in question. This is a matter you're probably more familiar with since

8 it's a report on the agreement between President Tudjman and the president

9 of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic. And they have

10 agreed in a similar manner one month earlier and the HDZ from BH and the

11 Party of Democratic Action reached an agreement. In item 5 it also says

12 that the Republic of Croatia supports the efforts of the international

13 community in its attempts to put an end to the aggression against

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and to put an end to military action. Were you

15 familiar with this document at the time, or if you weren't familiar with

16 the document itself, were you familiar with the attempt to reach an

17 agreement on the part of the Muslims and the Croats in the mid-1990 -- in

18 mid-1992?

19 A. If I'm correct, it's one month later, not earlier, unless I'm

20 mistaken. I don't recall whether I was aware of this particular

21 declaration and meeting. I suspect I had read about the meeting. I'm not

22 familiar with this particular document, but I was certainly aware that at

23 that time - and I think we are talking about May in your previous document

24 and June here - there was an intention to be in alliance or at least a

25 relationship of friendship politically, and I think I've testified to how

1 I saw that alliance work militarily on the ground at first, and indeed

2 continued throughout the war in some other places.

3 Q. Thank you. In that context, and not even two months later on, in

4 August, 1992, you visited Mate Boban in Grude and you spoke to him.

5 General Praljak put a question to you about that event. But since I have

6 a quote in front of me, I'd like to be a little more precise when putting

7 my question to you. Yesterday, on page 28 of the transcript, lines 1 to

8 5, you said that Mate Boban said, and I quote you, "that he wanted the

9 division of Bosnia and Herzegovina into cantons on the model of

10 Switzerland."

11 In response to Mr. Praljak's question, page 45 and 46 of the

12 transcript, you said you didn't know much about Switzerland. I was

13 fortunate enough to spend a few years living in Switzerland so I probably

14 know a little more than you do about that country and I do know that

15 Switzerland consists of cantons but is a unified country. Can you explain

16 why Switzerland has unified cantons whereas the organisation of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina, when based on this cantonal model, is equivalent to the

18 division of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. I've already pleaded relative ignorance of how Switzerland works.

20 I don't know whether the cantons are ethnic, I honestly don't know whether

21 you have a French, German and Italian canton in Switzerland. I didn't get

22 from that meeting with Mr. Boban that he was -- any sense that he was

23 aspiring to -- he didn't talk much about the unification of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. If anything his remarks were tended towards the

25 opposite direction. He was saying he could not respect the constitution

1 for reasons we've been discussing at length. He said that he could not

2 accept Sarajevo as the capital. So I can't talk about Switzerland as

3 regards how its cantons are organised, but yes, it is a unified country.

4 All I can say is that from Mr. Boban's remarks, I didn't get the

5 impression that he was wanting to emphasise the union or unification of

6 the country which had been internationally recognised and proclaimed

7 independence from Yugoslavia, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He

8 didn't use that term, and if he did, he didn't use it enthusiastically.

9 I also, by the way, don't know whether Switzerland groups its

10 cantons either ethnically or in terms of other names. I don't know if

11 there is an equivalent to Herceg-Bosna in Switzerland, for instance.

12 Q. I hope we'll clarify this with one more question. You didn't use

13 a neutral word. You didn't say -- you didn't use the word the

14 organisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina when you assessed the way Mate Boban

15 spoke about cantons. You used a very charged word, you referred to the

16 division of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this is why I'm putting this

17 question to you.

18 A. It's a fair question. By "division," I was, I think, inferring a

19 separation of sorts along ethnic lines and, from what I gathered, these

20 were intended to be as exclusive as possible ethnic lines in these

21 cantons. I mean, one of the things I noticed in support of my answer was

22 that as the conflict developed that we are concerned with now,

23 Herceg-Bosna manufactured its own car number plates, for instance, its own

24 postage stamps. I remember the time when the land lines started to work

25 at last in Central Bosnia, at the PTT stations, but the area code was 385,

1 which is the area code of Croatia, and I remember you could call Croatia

2 but you couldn't call, say, Sarajevo.

3 Q. We'll look into that later on but with regard to the stamps, the

4 money, et cetera, are the notes used in London and Edinburgh, are the bank

5 notes used in those two cities identical? Naturally we are referring to

6 the same state.

7 A. It's a fair point. They are not identical, as you know. There is

8 a Bank of Scotland and a Bank of England.

9 Q. I'd now like to move on to another series of questions that have

10 to do with HOS. For the sake of the transcript I would like to point out

11 that we'll probably agree that the abbreviation HOS stands for the

12 Croatian Defence Forces. H stands for Croatia, and naturally the HOS is

13 to be distinguished from the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council. I don't

14 know whether this distinction is clear enough in the English language but

15 I believe it is. For you, however, the distinction to be made is crystal

16 clear.

17 A. "Forces" certainly has a more military connotation to me than

18 "council," which perhaps pertains to the previous -- your colleague's

19 cross-examination over this civilian-military entwinement. But thank you.

20 That's precisely my point. The HVO was, so far as I could see, or did

21 involve an entwinement, whereas the HOS, I'm not quite sure what their

22 actual status was but I knew that they were affiliated to a political

23 party.

24 Q. We'll come to that. We'll come to that later.

25 First I would like to ask you the following: When you first

1 appeared in Bosnia-Herzegovina in August, 1992, what was the relationship

2 between the HOS and the HVO? Were they on friendly terms or was there any

3 form of antagonism between these two groups?

4 A. I think I've testified that one of the things that I went to look

5 at was a report that one of the leaders of the HOS, if not the leader,

6 whose name I can't recall at the moment, I think it's Kraljevic [Realtime

7 transcript read in error "Kriminaljevic"], had been, as the HOS put it,

8 executed at a roadblock, and I didn't talk a great deal to Mr. Boban about

9 the HOS, although I think we might have done a bit, but did talk to Mr.

10 Dedakovic, of the HOS in Capljina, a great deal about the HVO, and it was

11 a long discussion about territorial aspirations, which I think I've

12 testified to already, or reported what he said, and also very importantly

13 for him, went back to disagreements over the defence of Vukovar which as

14 you know is something of a sacred scar in Croatian history.

15 Q. With the help of the usher I would like to show you document

16 5D 01013. I'd like to show you this document again. The English

17 translation has been attached to this document, as we have an English

18 translation attached to all the other documents that will be shown.

19 We still don't have the document. Yes, that's the document. We

20 can see it on the monitors now. We have the English translation in front

21 of us.

22 This is from the command of the HOS war HQ for Herzegovina. It

23 comes from -- it's dated the first half of August, 1992, because in the

24 second line it says because the deputy commander of HOS was arrested on

25 the 7th of August, 1992, and then continues to say that the HVO and other

1 forces attached to the HVO were self-proclaimed forces whereas HOS was a

2 regular military force in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It says that all

3 members of the HVO shall be arrested, in the second paragraph. The HVO is

4 accused of being an instrument of the KOS, counter-intelligence service,

5 and UDBA, the state security administration, and the greeting is -- at the

6 end is, "We are ready to act for the homeland." Mr. Vulliamy, yesterday

7 you said that in Capljina you saw photographs of Ante Pavelic. You saw

8 the letter U - it's on page 32 of the transcript - and you also spoke to

9 Dobroslav Paraga, the president of the Croatian Party of Rights in Zagreb.

10 That is page 36 of the transcript, lines 12 to 14. You would agree that

11 when one has a look at the document, the relationship between the HVO and

12 HOS was not ideal and HOS was considered to be an integral part of the

13 regular armed forces, the so-called regular armed forces of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 A. Before I answer, can I just say that my attempt to recall the HOS

16 leader's name has been transcribed as Kriminaljevic, which may or may not

17 be a joke but perhaps that -- to answer your question, I -- sorry about

18 that. The -- I was under no illusions at all that the HOS and the HVO

19 were in an antagonistic relationship. I didn't know that HOS regarded

20 itself as a legitimate armed force and that the -- thought the HVO was an

21 illegitimate armed force. That seems to be between them. So far as I was

22 aware the HVO was actually the official armed force of the Croatian

23 Community of Herceg-Bosna, not the HOS, so I'm -- I'm learning this as I

24 go along. As regards your reference to Ante Pavelic and the Ustasha, I

25 inferred, I think rightly, that the HOS regarded themselves as, as it

1 were, the descendants of the movement. In fact, their use of the term "za

2 dom spremni" sort of indicates that, and although I did see Pavelic's

3 picture in Grude, and the capped U, I don't think I ever tried -- if I

4 have -- no, I don't think -- I didn't see anything in HVO literature that

5 claimed the descent of the Ustasha movement. However, during my time

6 there, HOS soldiers did visibly come under HVO command during 1993,

7 because we got to know their roadblocks and the same people changed -- at

8 least on one occasion in particular, changed uniforms but, of course, I

9 understand that at the beginning the relations were very antagonistic.

10 Q. We are now talking about the year 1992. We agree that the HOS

11 referred to the Ustasha movement and to the Independent State of Croatia,

12 and I said it had descended from that movement. I won't go into history,

13 but in the course of the Second World War, this movement was on the side

14 of the Third Reich. You yourself have confirmed this. You yourself have

15 agreed that the HOS was in fact the military faction of a political party,

16 the Croatian Party of Rights. With your leave and with the usher's help,

17 I would like to show you document P D 00093.

18 We have the English translation on the screen. It's an order from

19 the president of the Croatian Party of Rights, Dobroslav Paraga, an order

20 in which certain HOS officers are being appointed or promoted in the

21 municipality of Maglaj, which is in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as you know.

22 A. Yes, I've been there, and it was under siege.

23 Q. And this supports what we have already discussed, the claim that

24 HOS functioned under the auspices of the Croatian Party of Rights. While

25 you were in Herzegovina, did you know anything about the ethnic

1 composition of HOS units?

2 A. Yes. They were Croats, Bosnian Croats and Croats, indeed, and

3 Bosnian Muslims were also in the HOS.

4 Q. Do you have any idea of the ratio between the Croats and Muslims

5 in HOS units?

6 A. No, I don't. I imagine it varied from region to region. I think

7 quite apart from the whole question of the divisibility or indivisibility

8 of Bosnia, it probably accorded -- at least, in my experience, it accorded

9 to whether there was a Bosnian army presence in the area or not. And I

10 think around Capljina, at least, there might have been but it was -- I

11 think HOS was probably a better bet if you wanted to get a gun to fight

12 the Serbs.

13 Q. With the usher's help I'd like to show you another document now.

14 It is 5, number 5D 01012. And it is an excerpt from a book, I don't know

15 whether you know the book, but it is by Mehmed Dizdar, and it is called,

16 "Fated Stolac." It has 260 pages and it would be a considerable feat for

17 the Defence to translate all of it. We have chosen certain fragments --

18 or rather "Stolac on Trial," written by Mehmed Dizdar. We have extracted

19 a few pages for the purposes of this cross-examination, and we also attach

20 the English translation. The author of the book, Mehmed Dizdar, until the

21 beginning of the war, was one of the commanders in the police station of

22 Stolac, and later on he was one of the key figures, key organisers, of the

23 BH army in the Stolac and Capljina areas.

24 May we look at the first page of the translation, please. Page

25 number 1. That's it. The author of the book describes a dialogue which

1 took place in the summer of 1992 with one of the commanders of HOS, and

2 then if you look at the second half of this translation, the author asks a

3 question: Who else is in HOS? And the person he's speaking to Beso, he

4 was a Bosnian Muslim by name and surname, he says, all the Muslims in HOS,

5 all of them are in -- all of them are Muslims. How do you get along with

6 the HVO, it should be. There is a mistranslation here. It should read,

7 How do you get along with the HVO, not the HOS. We have our line, nothing

8 to do with them, is the answer. Tell me now, please, Mr. Vulliamy, do you

9 find it strange that the vast majority of HOS members in Herzegovina

10 belonged to the Muslim ethnic group, were ethnic Muslims, at least

11 according to what Mr. Dizdar says in this book of his?

12 A. I've never heard of the book or of him, I'm afraid. If this is

13 true, it -- I -- I suppose -- I don't know what to say. Perhaps it

14 confirms my view that it varied from region to region. The HOS people I

15 got to know up near Prozor on their roadblock were all Croats, and I think

16 Mr. Dedakovic was half Serbian so -- but I don't know of this book. I

17 don't know of its veracity, nor do I have any reason not to think it true

18 but I think I've said that I knew that there were Muslims in the HOS and

19 the further away from --

20 Q. Yes. Thank you. We'll come back to that book or to details from

21 the book, which have to do with the events in Herzegovina.

22 A moment ago we mentioned the letter dated the 7th or 8th of

23 August, 1992, in which the HOS commander in Mostar is called the regular

24 army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I would now like to show

25 another document, 5D 00130. It is an order dated the 15th of August,

1 1992, signed by Sefer Halilovic. I'm sure the name rings a bell. Sefer

2 Halilovic at that point in time was the Chief of Staff of the Supreme

3 Command of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and as

4 you can see, he was issuing this -- he issued this order that the HOS

5 units from Konjic, Jablanica and Prozor, under the command of Major Zvonko

6 Lukic -- I don't know if you're well-versed, or rather, are you familiar

7 -- can you judge on the basis of a name which ethnic group this Mr. Lukic

8 belongs to or could be, ethnically speaking, but let me tell you that

9 quite certainly he's not a Muslim, on the basis of his name.

10 A. I think I can hazard a guess. He's probably a Serb.

11 Q. He could be either a Serb or a Croat, I don't know, but at any

12 rate, the HOS units in those three municipalities under his command are

13 being subordinated to the command of TG 1 in Konjic. From this, may we

14 deduce that the command of the BH army was in command of the HOS units?

15 A. On the basis of this document, they were able to issue an order to

16 them, yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, since you yourself said that the political goal,

18 or rather, the territorial goal of the Croatian Party of Rights and HOS

19 was to include the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina into the Croatian state,

20 can you explain to us in what way that would have been acceptable to the

21 Muslim leadership and Sefer Halilovic and Alija Izetbegovic? Was that not

22 diametrically opposed to what they advocated in public?

23 A. I am not aware that either Halilovic or Izetbegovic anticipated

24 Bosnia being incorporated into one large Croatia, no.

25 Q. I agree with you there. Yes.

1 But the question is what was HOS's role with the -- that -- those

2 kind of territorial and political goals within the frameworks of the armed

3 forces of BH?

4 A. I don't know. As I said, I -- I -- I -- in my experience, HOS

5 people that I knew went under HVO command. Clearly in this instance they

6 go under the command of the Bosnian army. I'm not privy to the -- to when

7 or how the HOS broke up, if they ever did, or to whom they allied. They

8 seemed to be going off in all directions.

9 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you that because yesterday you described to

10 us your first visit to Dretelj, when HOS was in command, and that was the

11 summer of 1992, when you, on page 34 and 35 of yesterday's transcript,

12 stated that at the entrance to that detention centre, there was a soldier

13 wearing BH army -- a BH army uniform. We can therefore conclude that in

14 1992 the Dretelj detention centre was commanded, administered, both by

15 Croats and Muslims within HOS together.

16 However, for us to clarify the role of HOS, with your permission,

17 and I'm trying to save time, of course, because it's running out, I would

18 like to ask the usher once again to go back to Mehmet Dizdar's book, that

19 is to say document 5D 01012. And it is the translation of pages 164, or

20 part of that page. We don't have it on the screen yet. We need a

21 translation of page 164, please. That's the next page. That's it.

22 We are dealing with the same time period, the same speakers, and

23 while the author of the book is asking what HOS's plans are and what they

24 intend to do, this other man, Beso, who was a highly positioned officer in

25 HOS says, "We are all going to join the army, that's to say the BH army.

1 As soon as the conditions are in place. Such is the mood within the army,

2 and the Muslims in the HVO have the same opinion." So already in the

3 summer of 1992, the Muslims in HOS and the Muslims in the HVO are in fact

4 preparing to join up with the BH army, to move to the BH army.

5 If we look at the next page, it is a dialogue that took place in

6 August 1992. The author of the book, as one of the organisers of the BH

7 army in the Stolac and Capljina area, is talking to Avdo Hebib. I don't

8 know whether the name Avdo Hebib is familiar to you. He was one of the

9 top politicians in the Party of Democratic Action for ten years and he was

10 deputy foreign minister. I don't know if you've heard of him.

11 A. I haven't, no.

12 Q. You haven't. Fine.

13 In that conversation, and we are not going to read it all out in

14 view of the time, but they are discussing the BH army organisation in

15 Stolac and Capljina, and then Hebib says to the other man, he's describing

16 how they tricked the Serbs, and we saved ourselves and the HVO was

17 allegedly engaged in terror, and Hebib says, "We'll trick them too." He

18 was consoling him, and he meant the HVO, the Croats.

19 Tell me, please, from the excerpts we have just read, are we able

20 to conclude that the Muslims in the HVO and in HOS, already in 1992, if

21 this testimony is correct, planned operations against the HVO?

22 A. It's hard to tell with these extracts from a book I haven't read

23 and people I haven't heard of or the veracity of all this. It seems they

24 want to trick them. It seems there are Muslims in the HVO, which indeed

25 there were. I think I've testified already about how many of those were

1 arrested on the front lines and taken to Dretelj when we went there. I'm

2 not quite sure what the question is. But if I'm supposed to understand

3 that gist of what Mr. Boban was saying in the meeting that we are talking

4 about, that all this was an extension of the HVO's problems with HOS, he

5 certainly didn't go into it with me. I can talk about what was said at

6 that meeting. It's difficult for me to talk about this book, but it

7 doesn't sound as though whoever is saying this, planning operations may

8 be, I don't see that, but it's quite clear and I think we've made the

9 point -- I've -- I'm not disagreeing with that you that relations between

10 the HOS and HVO in 1992 were not good, were bad, hostile. I've said

11 that. But during the conversation with Mr. Boban, it was the relationship

12 with the constitution and this was -- he wasn't preoccupied with HOS

13 despite the fact that one of the things we wanted him to talk about was

14 the -- the killing of this man on the roadblock.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, it is 4.25. I'm

16 getting a little worried because the Pusic and Prlic Defence counsel are

17 probably going to take some time, or are they going to give up their right

18 to cross-examine? I don't really know.

19 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have reached an

20 agreement. I don't think there will be any difficulty. I need just three

21 or four more minutes.

22 Q. And I'd like to ask Mr. Vulliamy to clarify a detail that cropped

23 up today when you were questioned by Mr. Praljak and when HOS was

24 mentioned in the context of the fall of Jajce. In view of the fact that

25 at that time, and we are talking about the end of October, 1992, you were

1 in Central Bosnia at the time, do you know that there was a joint command

2 set up at the time, of the HVO and the BH army?

3 A. In Jajce?

4 Q. After the fall of Jajce.

5 A. Where? All over the --

6 Q. In Central Bosnia. Where we had Colonel Blaskic, Anto Prkacin on

7 the Croatian side and so on, but if you know nothing about that, just say

8 so.

9 A. No. I knew there was a -- there were movements towards a joint

10 command. Whether it went into effect or any length of time or not, I

11 don't know, but I certainly remember that.

12 Q. All right. Thank you. And two more short questions. On several

13 occasions during your testimony yesterday, and you repeated that today,

14 that in order to send out your reports and articles to London, you had to

15 go to Split, Imotski, that there were no links from Tomislavgrad, et

16 cetera. Am I right in understanding that you had to cross into Croatia in

17 order to send your reports out? Did you have to cross the border?

18 A. It varied with the different -- in the different periods. Some

19 people had satellite phones. I didn't. We had access to those. The

20 phone I mentioned in Tomislavgrad was somebody's satellite phone that we

21 were able to use once. I don't remember if there were land lines in

22 Tomislavgrad at the beginning of the war, I don't think there were. Split

23 and Imotski were certainly the places where you could depend on getting

24 one, in Croatia, yes.

25 Q. Yes. Telephone lines were down quite certainly from Herceg-Bosna.

1 And now my last question: Yesterday, on pages 80 to 82 of the transcript,

2 you said that the imam, the religious leader in Capljina, the imam, and

3 numerous civilians over there and representatives of the UNHCR told you

4 that for the Prosecution of Muslims and from Capljina and Stolac, that the

5 most responsible person was Mr. Pero Markovic, that they considered him to

6 be the most responsible person. And you mentioned that on pages 36 and 37

7 in response to a question from Mr. Murphy, but only in relation to

8 Capljina. And you mentioned the information you received from the UNHCR.

9 I'd like to clarify this matter. Did this information refer to Capljina

10 and Stolac and Dretelj, by the same token, and were -- was the information

11 given by the UNHCR, was it confirmed and borne out by the imam and other

12 civilians that you managed to talk to?

13 A. I didn't return to speak to the imam or the civilians in Capljina

14 after talking to the UNHCR. I'm afraid I can't answer your question with

15 regard to Stolac. It was the name that came up during conversations with

16 the imam and the women in Capljina and I think I've described the

17 conversation with the UNHCR about this man and their view of his views.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 A. Thank you, sir.

20 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] That completes my cross-examination,

21 Mr. President. I should like to tender the documents that were shown the

22 witness into evidence.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, you have the

24 numbers?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. The following documents

1 are admitted into evidence: [In English] therefore tendered into

2 evidence, 5D 00049, 5D 00064, 5D 01013, 5D 01012, and 5D 00130. I hope

3 that I haven't left any aside.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, so we now -- we would

5 now have 30 minutes left. You have a document you've forgotten?

6 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President, but it

7 seems to me that the document with the final digits 93 has not been

8 included in that list of documents. It's the order of the 4th of

9 September, 1992, Dobroslav Paraga; 5D 00093.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. This exhibit is

12 therefore tendered and admitted under the reference 5D 00093. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So theoretically speaking, we

14 have 30 minutes left for questions by Mr. Pusic's Defence counsel and Mr.

15 Prlic's Defence counsel, and perhaps any supplementary questions and

16 questions from the Judges. I'm an optimist. Mr. Ibrisimovic?

17 MR. SAHOTA: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Sahota:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vulliamy.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. My name is Roger Sahota, I'm the co-counsel for --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I couldn't see

23 you, you were right behind the pillar there.

24 MR. SAHOTA:

25 Q. My name is Roger Sahota, I'm the co-counsel for Mr. Pusic. On

1 behalf of Mr. Pusic, I'd like to ask you a few questions.

2 You've given evidence in some detail about your visit to Dretelj

3 in September, 1993, and you've also given evidence about the press

4 conference [Realtime transcript read in error "president"] that took place

5 some days later in Medjugorje, also in September, 1993.

6 A. The next day, as I recall.

7 Q. Could I ask for a correction in the translation? The word

8 "president" should read "press conference." I think when you gave

9 evidence you implied in your testimony that the first time that you came

10 across my client, Mr. Pusic, was at this press conference; is that

11 correct?

12 A. To the best of my knowledge, it was, yeah, and the only time.

13 Q. You also gave evidence to the effect that before your visit to

14 Dretelj, you had spent some time trying to obtain access to that detention

15 facility.

16 A. We tried the previous day before General Praljak gave us

17 permission, and had tried once in July.

18 Q. And you had no success until you came across General Praljak; is

19 that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. I don't think it's in dispute but it was General Praljak who gave

22 you permission to visit Dretelj?

23 A. It was, yes, as I hope I've described accurately.

24 Q. When you were trying to obtain permission to visit Dretelj, did

25 anyone suggest to you that you should contact Mr. Pusic, that he was

1 somebody in authority who might be able to obtain access for you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. During your visit to Dretelj was Mr. Pusic's name ever mentioned

4 to you by anybody or in particular by the commander who was your escort,

5 Commander Sakota?

6 A. Not that I recall.

7 Q. Could you just clarify this: Did anyone ever mention Mr. Pusic's

8 name to you prior to September, 1993? Had you ever heard his name

9 mentioned in any context?

10 A. I don't recall whether I knew his name, and I think, to the best

11 of my recollection, the first time I heard it was the first day I saw him,

12 which was at the press conference.

13 Q. Thank you. Turning now to the press conference, you gave evidence

14 earlier today that the meeting, the conference that you went to was

15 chaired by an individual called Kresimir Zubak; is that correct?

16 A. Well, when I said chaired by, I think he made the opening remarks

17 and appeared to be the driving force of the panel, but I don't know. I

18 don't know if he chaired it. He introduced or chaired it or some such.

19 Q. Is it correct that you hadn't met Mr. Zubak before but you had

20 heard of him?

21 A. I had heard of him but I had not met him.

22 Q. And Mr. Zubak announced himself as the holder of a certain office.

23 Could you tell us what that office was?

24 A. I think he called himself the vice-president of the HVO, but I

25 wasn't sure quite what that meant or whether that was the case.

1 Q. Mr. Vulliamy, you also have told this Court that you don't speak

2 B/C/S fluently; is that correct?

3 A. I think we've had this conversation. I spoke it very basically a

4 while back and I don't -- I've remembered very little of it.

5 Q. I know that the press conference took place a long time ago but

6 can I ask you to see if you can remember whether there was an interpreter

7 on the panel of speakers that day.

8 A. What was said must have been interpreted. I can't remember

9 whether the interpreter was on the panel. I presume yes, because a lot of

10 the people there were -- I'd say about half were from the international

11 press, but I'm afraid I can't recall where the translations came from.

12 Q. So it would be fair to say that you just can't remember.

13 A. I can't remember. I mean, there are two ways of doing this:

14 Sometimes there is an official translator, sometimes it's your own

15 translator doing it. I can't recall which was that on that occasion but

16 what was said was obviously translated because I was taking a note of it.

17 Q. But the speeches were certainly given in B/C/S.

18 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.

19 Q. Final question: Is it correct to say that you had never come

20 across Mr. Pusic before and you had never heard his name mentioned in any

21 context prior to that press conference?

22 A. As I've said, that's as I recall, no, and I mean no and yes: No,

23 I hadn't heard his name, nor had I met him until the press conference.

24 MR. SAHOTA: Thank you, Mr. Vulliamy, I have no further questions

25 for you. Thank you, Mr. President.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Counsel Sahota.

2 There is a good example of cross-examination well conducted, which I'm

3 sure will inspire Counsel Karnavas. You have the floor.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President and Your Honours, and

5 thank you for the confidence you bestow upon me.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Vulliamy, I just have a few questions. I

8 wanted to pick up where you just left off a little bit ago with respect to

9 Mr. Zubak. As I understand it, you indicated that you heard his name

10 subsequent to this press conference as well and you tracked his career

11 thereafter to some degree.

12 A. I wouldn't say followed it, but he did hold political office, if I

13 remember rightly, in the Federation at some point, and it's a name that

14 recurred, yes.

15 Q. Okay. So I take it that as you sit here today you don't recall

16 whether he was the one that replaced Mate Boban when Boban stepped down.

17 A. When I said the Federation, maybe that's what I meant but I think

18 my uncertainty demonstrates that I knew he held some kind of office but I

19 wasn't quite sure which one.

20 Q. Okay. Now, the title of your book, "Season in Hell" also says

21 "Understanding Bosnia's War." That's kind of an ambitious title, the

22 subtitle, "Understanding Bosnia's War," wouldn't you say?

23 A. Is it ambitious? I don't know. Yes, perhaps.

24 Q. I say that because the Bosnian war was rather complex.

25 A. In some ways yes, in some ways no.

1 Q. All right. Give you an example: You had indicated earlier that

2 you were somewhat surprised to find Muslim HVO soldiers now being detained

3 in a prison and you made a comment about that, I believe yesterday.

4 Correct?

5 A. Yes. I mean not necessarily surprised given what had been going

6 on by then, but I think I testified as to sort of, you know, what I call

7 the spirit of the front line.

8 Q. Right.

9 A. Which is, has its inimitable collegiality, and I remember feeling

10 and discussing with colleagues if not surprise, certainly a sort of -- a

11 disheartened feeling that comrades could arrest their own comrades who had

12 been in combat together, it -- quite possibly for at least a year, against

13 the Serbs to the east of where they were.

14 Q. All right. Then you would have been equally surprised, I take it,

15 to learn that on June 30th, 1993, HVO Muslim soldiers killed HVO Croat

16 soldiers in their sleep in Bijelo Polje and in the North Camp. Were you

17 aware of that?

18 A. No, I wasn't, and I find it similarly disheartening for the same

19 reasons I've just described.

20 Q. And so if you have a certain element within your own ranks that

21 are killing other members, you would find it understandable why some of

22 them at least would be put in prison or why there might be some distrust;

23 would that be correct?

24 A. I don't know about the episode you're talking about, but I --

25 certainly that does not sound like what I called the --

1 Q. Collegiality.

2 A. -- the collegiality of the front line.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, getting back to the issue of HOS, my colleague

4 Mr. Jonjic was kind enough to share with us a couple of documents, and I

5 just want to touch on that a little bit. You were obviously aware, if not

6 then by today you are, that HOS was part of the ABiH, the army of BiH.

7 A. I -- I knew that there were Muslims in HOS, yes. I'm not sure

8 that I was aware that there was a direct chain of command. Nor -- I

9 mean --

10 Q. All right. I'll buy that, okay?

11 A. I was about to say nor was I aware that orders could be given from

12 Sarajevo to the HOS.

13 Q. I believe it was General Praljak who indicated that it was Alija

14 Izetbegovic who had promoted a certain person to the rank of general.

15 A. I can't remember his name, but I remember General Praljak asking

16 me, and I hope I said no, but because I didn't know about that.

17 Q. That was the gentleman that was killed.

18 A. I did not know that, right.

19 Q. Mr. Jonjic shared with us the ambitions of HOS, which were to push

20 the Croatian borders all the way to the Drina, which would have meant

21 taking up the entire BiH, correct?

22 A. Yes. I think I've testified to that after my conversation with

23 Mr. Dedakovic as well.

24 Q. And to paraphrase you, or -- I don't want to put words in your

25 mouth, but you seem rather surprised, or it seems oxymoronic that here you

1 have Alija Izetbegovic in bed with HOS whose ambitions are to push the

2 borders all the way to the Drina. It seems a little ridiculous, doesn't

3 it?

4 A. Well, you seem to paraphrase me. "In bed with," I'm not in a

5 position to say that. "Ridiculous" --

6 Q. You don't find it odd?

7 A. Well, it seems to me odd that the -- that a Bosnian party would

8 advocate complete incorporation into a Greater Croatia, yes.

9 Q. Exactly. Unless of course, we look at the other documents that

10 were shared with us by Mr. Jonjic which shows that the Muslims that were

11 in HOS and again in HVO had ulterior motives; that is, at some point to

12 trick the Croats, take the weapons, and move over to the ABiH. That's

13 another way of looking at it, wouldn't it, which would make sense then.

14 A. Well, I don't know about the veracity of this book, and I don't --

15 I mean, I can't -- I mean, it could be that --

16 Q. But that scenario would make sense then, wouldn't it, why Alija

17 Izetbegovic would support HOS with their territorial ambitions, if he had

18 Muslim fighters with the intentions of at some point taking their weapons

19 and switching sides?

20 A. I can't read into his head or what was going on. This is all --

21 this was all behind the scenes. It sounds to me like there was some

22 manipulation going on, which wouldn't surprise me, in both directions.

23 Q. Exactly, and there was a lot of that going on in the war, on both

24 sides.

25 A. Indeed.

1 Q. I'm going to hit just some high points because I don't have a lot

2 of time. With regard to Herceg-Bosna, you indicated that you thought it

3 was well organised. You mentioned the currency, Mr. Jonjic pointed out in

4 Scotland they use a different currency than perhaps there in England. Do

5 you know whether the central bank of Bosnia-Herzegovina was actually

6 functioning at the time? Were you aware whether it was?

7 A. I'm aware that it started functioning at some point, but I don't

8 know when. With regards to the Scottish thing, it's -- I mean, the

9 country code for Scotland is 44 and you can call Edinburgh from London.

10 Q. Just work --

11 A. I mean, it sounds irrelevant, but you're making it relevant.

12 Q. Work with --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please slow down for the sake of the

14 interpreters, thank you.

15 MR. KARNAVAS:

16 Q. Work with me on the central bank, okay? Do you know for a fact -

17 yes or no - was the central bank of Bosnia-Herzegovina functioning at the

18 time as it should?

19 A. I don't know when it should have been functioning, and I don't --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, please slow down a

21 little since the interpreters are having a little trouble following you.

22 MR. KARNAVAS:

23 Q. Was Sarajevo under siege at the time?

24 A. I said I didn't know when it was functioning.

25 Q. No, no, my question now is: Was Sarajevo under siege? That's my

1 question. I'm sure you understood it. Please answer that: Yes or no,

2 during that period.

3 A. During this period, yes, of course.

4 Q. Okay. And was the Sarajevo government, the state government, was

5 it able to function as it normally would have during peace times?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. I don't mean to be aggressive. I'm just trying to move

8 along. Sorry, I don't want you to think I'm trying to be offensive.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Just bear in mind, then, the interpreters need

10 some time to interpret what you're saying.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, thank you, and I do apologise to the

12 interpreters.

13 Q. Now a little bit about your background. And I don't want to go

14 into too much, but basically, as far as I know, from listening to you,

15 you are a foreign correspondent and covering this particular war off and

16 on, and your covering snippets of it, or selective portions of it.

17 A. Well, as you say, off and on, on and off, I was visiting, but over

18 a substantial period of time. The fact that I wasn't there all the time

19 was a matter of editorial decisions but also a matter of stamina. I can

20 only think of one or two people who were there all the time.

21 Q. And I'm not being critical, so don't -- Now, I take it from

22 listening to you, you hadn't -- you didn't read -- well, first of all,

23 you're not a trained lawyer. You're not a trained lawyer.

24 A. I'm not a trained lawyer.

25 Q. Or a constitutional expert.

1 A. I'm not a constitutional expert.

2 Q. And I take it you didn't have the opportunity to look at the

3 constitution of the former Yugoslavia or of the Socialist Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. I read books about the history of Yugoslavia that would have made

6 references to both but I certainly can't say I ever read the full document

7 of either, no, I didn't, and I didn't.

8 Q. And it would be fair to say that you didn't look at the legal

9 framework and the legislation that was put in in establishing the Croatian

10 Community of Herceg-Bosna?

11 A. I read about its establishment but I didn't read the legal

12 material, no.

13 Q. And if you had read the establishment, obviously you would have

14 learned that Travnik, at least, when HVO -- I mean HZ HB, the Croatian

15 Community of Herceg-Bosna was formed back in, I believe it was November

16 18, 1991, it was at that time that Travnik came in to that community.

17 A. Yes. I've answered that question. I wasn't clear. I think your

18 colleague asked me that.

19 Q. And just to stay on that particular point, because I -- yesterday,

20 when I heard you - and correct me if I'm wrong - I was under the

21 impression that you wanted to give the -- you drew a conclusion that after

22 meeting Boban, and after reading that Boban had gone to Travnik and

23 declared it as part of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the day

24 after or shortly thereafter the conflict broke out and you were trying to

25 connect these two together, these two events or three events together.

1 A. I wouldn't say I was trying to connect them.

2 Q. Well, you connected them.

3 A. Well, the events happened in rapid succession. I can't remember

4 if -- I would have to go back to the transcript to work out exactly what I

5 said. Yes, there were comments that it was all happening very soon after

6 his visit. I don't think I ever said he went to Travnik to declare war.

7 Q. Okay. All right. But you nonetheless place a certain amount of

8 premium on him going to Travnik and then shortly thereafter the war or the

9 conflict broke out as a result of, as you had indicated, Boban declaring

10 that Travnik was within the fold of the Croatian Community of

11 Herceg-Bosna?

12 A. As I say, I'd have to go back to the transcript to look at exactly

13 what I said, but certainly after that happened, things happened -- the

14 violence erupted pretty quickly. Or at least the ultimatum that led to

15 the violence started, things happened very quickly.

16 Q. But as a reasonable person you don't exclude the possibility that

17 one had nothing to do with the other?

18 A. I don't exclude it but there was conversation about the

19 coincidence for sure.

20 Q. Okay. Now were you aware that on October 17th, there was a

21 presidential meeting of the HZ HB, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna,

22 there in Travnik? Were you aware of that and that might be the reason why

23 Boban was there, not for any other nefarious reasons?

24 A. I didn't read about that meeting on the 17th, no.

25 Q. Were you aware that on October 21 in Novi Travnik, the commander

1 of the HVO in Travnik, Stojak, S-t-o-j-a-k, was killed? Were you aware of

2 that?

3 A. Now that you mention it, I think I was and, of course, I was with

4 the HVO hiding behind a wall during a firefight on, I think, the following

5 day, or at least two days after that, and that's probably where I heard

6 about it.

7 Q. Okay. And the reason -- why I'm talking about Travnik, Novi

8 Travnik, Prozor, those areas are all nearby each other, they are not that

9 far apart?

10 A. Prozor is quite a long ride from -- but the first two are close to

11 each other, yes, and tarmac connected.

12 Q. You indicated Prozor, you translated it into as "window," was

13 rather important. If it would be important for one side, it would also be

14 important to the other, right?

15 A. Oh, yes.

16 Q. Okay. So whoever controlled that area, you know, would control --

17 you know, would be -- would have the upper hand?

18 A. As I recall - again, I'd have to check the transcript - I used the

19 word "gateway," Prozor was strategically important to -- militarily to

20 anyone who wanted power in west -- in Central Bosnia and was also

21 important in terms of the distribution of aid. I was asked earlier about

22 aid convoys to Croatia. As you know, by the time they got into Bosnia it

23 was quite another matter and I had to cover a story of one that was

24 actually stopped and ransacked by the HVO at one point.

25 Q. In that area I believe there is a chapter you title "land grab" or

1 something to that effect. You talk about an individual by the name of

2 Mahmut Alagic [phoen] who talked about the Muslim triangle. Do you recall

3 that?

4 A. Yes, I do recall that conversation, yes, and I do recall writing

5 about it.

6 Q. And that particular individual was describing to you the Muslim

7 strategy for what areas they wanted in that particular region of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, correct?

9 A. Yes. I think that's what he was saying, exactly that.

10 Q. Okay. Getting back to this whole thing with "narod." I know we

11 only have a few minutes left but I just wanted to touch a couple of things

12 on that. One of the basic issues, at least what you hear and what you

13 read in the press, was that at the time there is this notion of a unitary

14 system; one person, one vote. That was one of the main sticking blocks or

15 issues with the Croatians in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you recall that

16 discussion?

17 A. Yes. I'm not sure we talked about one man -- one person, sorry,

18 one vote, but I do recall Mate Boban talking about his preoccupation that

19 the constitution guaranteed the rights of individuals but not of "narod."

20 Q. Not of "narod," right. And this thing of "narod," which is

21 translated "peoples" or "nation," is a little bit different than

22 nationality, would you agree with me on that, without going into too many

23 details?

24 A. It is neither of those three; it's "narod."

25 Q. Okay.

1 A. To translate it into German is didactic, but that's the nearest I

2 can get, if we can obliterate the obvious use of the word "das volk"

3 during this last century.

4 Q. All right, okay. But nonetheless at no time, from reading your

5 statement, reading your book, do you say that Mate Boban indicated that he

6 wanted that part of Herzegovina or Herceg-Bosna to become part of --

7 geographically part of Croatia; isn't that a fact?

8 A. I think I've testified to this many times: He never used the word

9 "annex" or "secession," but when he talked about the fact that it wasn't

10 part of Croatia he lamented it and talked about unfortunate historical

11 circumstances and other ways in which, if you like, the Bosnian Croats,

12 for want of a better word, or term, were, as I think he said. He said

13 this over and over again, culturally, spiritually, et cetera, affiliated

14 to Croatia.

15 Q. Sort of like the Greeks and the Cyprian Greeks. Just as an

16 example that I'm aware of.

17 A. Or perhaps the Ulster Protestants in Great Britain, which I always

18 thought was a better example.

19 Q. Okay. All right. Now, just a couple more points. When you got

20 over there in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I take it you were aware that Croatia

21 had been attacked by the JNA; correct?

22 A. Sorry, when I got to Bosnia?

23 Q. When you first got there --

24 A. Was I --

25 Q. You obviously must have been aware that Croatia was attacked by

1 the JNA.

2 A. I was more than aware of it. I had spent an awful long time

3 covering it in Vukovar, Osijek. I was very aware of it.

4 Q. And you must have been aware also --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please slow down.

6 Because we have problems.

7 MR. KARNAVAS:

8 Q. Obviously then you must have been aware that the territory of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina was used by the JNA as a staging ground in attacking

10 Croatia.

11 A. I was certainly aware that the JNA was based in Croatia -- sorry,

12 in Bosnia, particularly in the north, and reported quite extensively on

13 that, across the River Sava.

14 Q. All right. That was a time when Alija Izetbegovic was the

15 president of the Presidency, right?

16 A. The rotating Presidency, 1991.

17 Q. It never rotated, trust me.

18 A. Sorry --

19 Q. He took power and held it for eight years.

20 A. This is in 1991.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And do u recall what his response was when Ravno was

24 attacked on May 5, 1991? Is it -- November, September? In September,

25 1991. I'm sorry, I got the wrong date. I thought it was autumn.

1 A. The attack on Ravno had, with hindsight, not the -- not the

2 attention it deserved. I don't recall the reaction.

3 Q. Well the reaction was, This is not our war. Of course the

4 citizens of Ravno were Croats and not Muslim but they were in BiH. Now,

5 thinking back, how do you think that might have made the Croatian peoples,

6 "narod," of Bosnia-Herzegovina feel when the president of the Presidency

7 says, after a village is wiped out, says, it's not our war?

8 A. I'm not here to apologise for the SDA.

9 Q. I understand.

10 A. I take your point.

11 Q. Okay. There are a few more points I want to make, but we are out

12 of time, and I want to thank you very, very much for coming here, and have

13 safe travels back home.

14 A. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas. You

16 used the exact amount of time allocated to you, and I'm grateful for that.

17 It is good when everyone follows the guidelines as far as time is

18 concerned. Mr. Mundis you have no additional questions to put?

19 MR. MUNDIS: We have no further questions for the witness,

20 Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges will discipline

22 themselves too.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have a single question.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You have had extensive conversation with Mate

1 Boban. You gave us the impression that he had presented himself as the

2 leader of the Croats of -- of Herceg-Bosna, as if he were God, more or

3 less, politically. Did he ever in any way hint that there were other

4 Croats and that there might be an authority -- another Croat authority

5 beside him to which perhaps he owed respect or even a certain obedience?

6 A. I tried to understand and to explain but also certainly pleaded my

7 ignorance on the exact relationship between him and the HVO and the armed

8 forces. I don't know whether he was in a position, as in the leader of a

9 state in our democracies, to order the armed forces to war, but he

10 certainly spoke as though his intentions were intended to be carried out,

11 and I think -- I referred to some line in which he said, "No one will go

12 to Geneva except on my authorisation." There was another thing about any

13 one who disagrees should depart or leave in some other manner. He talked

14 as if his word was not quite as deified as God but he talked as though he

15 ran the show, yes.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: Mr. President, I'd like to put a brief question to

17 the witness.

18 Witness, I'd just like you to clarify something with regard to the

19 testimony you gave this morning and with regard to Mr. Pusic. In response

20 to Mr. Sahota's clear and precise cross-examination, you confirmed that

21 you saw Mr. Pusic for the first time at the press conference in

22 Medjugorje. And that he didn't seem to be in a position to influence the

23 decisions taken. Could you be a little more precise with regard to his

24 lack of influence, bearing in mind the fact that you said this morning

25 that Mr. Pusic was responsible for prison exchanges. So did he have any

1 influence with regard to the detention conditions in Dretelj?

2 A. Your Honour, I'm -- I apologise. I can't really enlighten you on

3 what influence he did or didn't have. He introduced himself or was

4 introduced as -- I can't even remember the expression, but in charge of

5 prisoner exchange. I don't know what influence he did or didn't have.

6 But he did seek to not justify the conditions in Dretelj but he did seek

7 to persuade the conference that they fell within the requirements of

8 international law of war. Also, this matter of prisoner exchange, I mean,

9 one of the things I remember we discussed was that it didn't seem as

10 though the inmates of Dretelj were there for exchange. I went to quite a

11 few places that were basically collections of pawns in a chess game where

12 -- who were just interned for exchange, and they invariably on all three

13 sides knew that that's what they were there for. I don't think anyone in

14 Dretelj said that they were there for exchange, and indeed, the fact that

15 some of them had been there several, several weeks suggests, although not

16 conclusively, that they weren't. So I can't really help you, I'm sorry,

17 with regard to the influence that Mr. Pusic did or didn't have over that

18 except to make that observation, that they didn't seem to be, for want of

19 a better word, what I'll call an exchange detention centre.

20 Some of them had been there since July so it seemed that they were more

21 permanently interned. Sorry, I can't help you more on his influence. I

22 just don't know.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Vulliamy, this

24 concludes your testimony. On behalf of all the Judges, I would like to

25 thank you for having testified over this two-day period and I will now ask

1 the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm turning to Mr. Mundis with

5 regard to the testimony of the expert witness that will be held tomorrow.

6 My first question is whether the expert witness is available for the

7 Chamber, and my second question is how much time do you think you will

8 need for your examination-in-chief? And how many documents do you intend

9 to show him?

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. With respect to the first

11 two questions, I think I'm in a position to answer those. The third

12 question, I'm afraid I'm not going to be of much assistance. Dr. Donia is

13 here, Dr. Donia will in fact be ready and available to testify commencing

14 at 9.00 tomorrow morning. My understanding from my colleague Mr. Scott,

15 who will actually be leading Dr. Donia's evidence, is that we anticipate

16 that direct examination to take approximately two hours. I am not in a

17 position at this point to indicate the number of documents that Mr. Scott

18 will be intending to show the witness. I can perhaps seek to get that

19 answer as quickly as possible for the benefit of the Chamber and the

20 Defence, but I believe we will certainly take him through his report and a

21 number of the documents that he cites to in that report.

22 Mr. President, my case manager indicates that there are

23 approximately 35 documents that we have here that will be shown to the

24 witness, but again, I'm hesitant to say much more than that simply

25 because, again, Mr. Scott will be leading the witness's testimony and he

1 obviously is not in the courtroom at this moment, so --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So this gives us an

3 idea. It will take up -- your examination will -- in chief will take

4 about two hours, and we have about 35 or 40 documents that will be shown

5 to the witness.

6 I'm now turning to the Defence teams. We will be commencing

7 tomorrow. We'll start at nine and conclude at five, and then we will have

8 another hearing on Thursday morning which will end at 1.45, so you have to

9 bear this schedule in mind when planning your cross-examination.

10 If you fail to reach an agreement by tomorrow, we will then apply

11 the rule of a sixth of the time allocated to Defence counsel, but I

12 believe that you will be able to reach an agreement. However, tomorrow,

13 it's Mr. Kovacic who should start the cross-examination, because everyone

14 is taking this in turn. So you should meet, reach an agreement, and

15 tomorrow at the beginning of the hearing you will tell me how you have

16 decided to divide the time.

17 I should also point out that on Thursday, at 1345, everything will

18 come to a halt. Mr. Kovacic?

19 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, since you indicated that I would be the

20 first one on question, and based on the discussion we already have -- we

21 already had on how to deal with Expert Witness Donia, I presume that --

22 all of us together, we presume that providing we agree on how to go with

23 that witness, that we will also have, how shall I say, a right to suggest

24 that another counsel will lead that witness, and most probably -- I guess

25 I can inform you that in advance, most probably or highly probably, one

1 counsel, and this will be my colleague Mr. Karnavas, will take all the

2 time we can get.

3 However, but I don't think this is now time to discuss this second

4 issue which I'm raising, it is a matter of time because even -- but, if

5 you allow me, I will discuss that now, but probably the best time will be

6 after the direct, because then we will -- all will be aware of how the

7 issue is complicated or perhaps not complicated. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The ideal solution would be for

9 you to discipline yourselves and for you to inform us of who will be

10 cross-examining the witness and when. Unfortunately, we have to bear in

11 mind time restrictions. We have no choice. I personally would like to

12 have far more time to deal with all these matters, but unfortunately, time

13 is limited, and as a result, it's necessary for you to reach an agreement.

14 If you fail to reach agreement, in that case we will apply elementary

15 mathematical rule that we have decided on you will take it in turn to

16 cross-examine the witness. If Mr. Karnavas will be starting tomorrow,

17 well, he'll be starting tomorrow, but the only thing that counts for us is

18 that on Thursday at 1.45 it is -- it will be necessary to have concluded

19 with the hearing of this expert witness. Reach an agreement, discuss the

20 matter, and try to decide on the important questions you want to put to

21 the witness. If we are dealing with expert matters, it's not necessary to

22 ask the same question ten times. It's a very serious affair. You're all

23 very experienced, and what is important is to provide the Judges with the

24 necessary information. That is the purpose of this exercise. If we fail

25 to meet this objective, we will have wasted a lot of time and you will

1 have wasted a lot of time for your Defence.

2 It's ten past five. I apologise to the interpreters because we

3 have worked a little longer than usual and we'll have the pleasure of

4 seeing each other again tomorrow at 9.00. Thank you very much.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.13 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of May,

7 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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