1 Wednesday, 31 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is case number IT-04-74-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning. I'd like to

10 welcome all those present. I am sorry for this 10-minute lateness this

11 morning. We had some technical problems. Luckily, the problem was solved

12 in time.

13 Mr. Registrar, it would be a good idea if somebody from the

14 Registry was here half an hour before the sitting begins to see that

15 everything is in order, to see if the clock's working, that the lights are

16 all switched on, and everything else is ready for the start of work in the

17 best possible conditions.

18 I hope that our witness has arrived, is here. I'm going to ask

19 the usher to bring him in very quickly.

20 Yes, Mr. Coric.

21 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

22 I'd like to remind you once again of the problem of my Defence team,

23 whether my request reached the Trial Chamber and --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused repeat what he said.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as your request was

1 concerned for the time, yes, we have taken that on board, and it is up to

2 your Defence counsel of one of the two proposals. Now, in that respect, I

3 don't have any other information, but I would like -- I'm going to ask to

4 be informed.

5 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my information

6 comes directly from the Registrar. They expect a response from you, and

7 that's what they've been telling me for the past 10 days. They've been

8 telling me that, and they've been telling me the counsel that. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we're going to take the

10 matter up with the Registrar, but it does come under the competencies of

11 the Registrar, under Articles 44 and 45, to see about the two individuals

12 that you have proposed and then see if they conform with the conditions.

13 So that is a job that the Registrar does, not I myself. I can't appoint a

14 counsel for you and say, yes, such-and-such a person is fine. But don't

15 worry, I'll inform myself of the matter, and we will inform you in due

16 course very quickly.

17 Now, Madam Usher, would you have the witness brought in, please.

18 Yes, Mr. Murphy.

19 MR. MURPHY: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with respect to the

20 Bruno Stojic Defence, we still have technical problems with the LiveNote.

21 We can continue, but perhaps the registrar could help us during the break.

22 Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 WITNESS: SEID SMAJKIC [Resumed]

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You may be seated.

3 We're glad to see you back, sir. As you know, you've come to continue

4 your testimony and the cross-examination. Of course if everything goes

5 well, as I said yesterday, your examination will last for five hours and a

6 quarter, and as we have six hours sitting today, in principle at the end

7 of the day you will be able to leave and go back home.

8 Having said that, I'm going to give the floor to the Defence. I

9 don't know who is going to start off. Mr. Karnavas.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

12 Q. Good morning, Mufti.

13 A. Good morning.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say something?

15 I have a remark to make.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please go ahead.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During my last examination,

18 Mr. Kovacic said something, made a statement that has no foundation, is

19 not based on justice and the truth and might have an effect in people

20 drawing the wrong conclusions, and this is what it's about: There's a

21 fragment upon which the gentleman built up his defence, and that was

22 linked to the extremist behaviour in very extreme situations when it came

23 to prisoners, and he said that that was a model of behaviour and that

24 people had the duty to behave that way according to Islamic law.

25 Now, I found this little booklet when I was home, and I found that

1 this was a trick, and I'm going to give you those quotations, if you like.

2 You will, of course, decide --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll look at the

4 problem, but perhaps some of the other counsel will raise the problem

5 again and this will give you an opportunity to say what you wish to say.

6 There we have it. Anyway, thank you for intervening.

7 Counsel Karnavas has the floor.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Q. Good morning again. Okay, since you brought up the topic, let's

11 get right to it. In your testimony - and I'm quoting from page 2472, on

12 24 May, 2006 - you were asked a question by the Prosecutor with respect to

13 your duties as mufti, which as I understand is pretty much at the same

14 level as a bishop in, say, the Catholic or the Orthodox religions. And in

15 that question you said that part your duties were contributing to the

16 affirmation of religious values in the most proper manner. That was what

17 you said. Do you recall saying that, and I take it you stand by that.

18 Now, first and foremost, I want to make sure that we're clear. I

19 am not, and I don't believe Mr. Kovacic did either, or any of my

20 colleagues will say, that you were the author of the "Instructions for

21 Muslim Fighters." As you indicated, that came from Zenica, but you also

22 indicated that that was either authored by or it was published with the

23 approval of the Zenica mufti; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Now, you indicated that theirs -- the head of the Islamic church

1 in Bosnia is in Sarajevo. That's Reis-ul-Ulema. I don't know if I'm

2 pronouncing it correctly.

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. And his closest advisors, associates, his peers, I would assume

5 he's somewhat like first among equals, maybe slightly higher, they're all

6 the muftis in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you being one of them; correct?

7 A. That is correct, yes.

8 Q. Now, I think that there's no dilemma in us knowing that during the

9 war, unfortunately, there were individuals on all sides that, you know,

10 committed extreme acts that no one should have to tolerate in a civilised

11 society. Would you agree with me on that?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And unfortunately again, some foreign fighters came, perhaps on

14 all sides, but since you're here, we're speaking of Islamic fighters that

15 came, and with them they brought traditions, practices, habits which are

16 not necessarily -- or do not necessarily comport with the Geneva

17 Conventions. Would you agree with me on that?

18 A. On all sides. That was a good thing you said. There were groups

19 of people on all sides. We can call them Mujahedin if you like. But

20 anyway, they existed in the army or, rather, attached to the army or

21 independent units of Mujahedins, and the Croatian Defence had mercenaries,

22 and the Serb side had mercenaries as well. They were legionaries and they

23 did dirty things. And it is my duty to be quite frank and tell you all

24 this. The positions, to a certain extent, of the Mujahedin attached to

25 the army is a little different from the legionaries and mercenaries on the

1 other sides because they joined the aggressive forces, whereas the

2 Mujahedin nonetheless, although what you said some of it is true, they did

3 nevertheless help the victims; the Bosniaks, the Muslims who were the

4 victims of the aggression.

5 Q. Let me stop you there. You know being -- I think, aside from

6 being a religious leader, we're also colleagues in the sense that you're a

7 trained lawyer. Maybe in a different kind of law, but nonetheless you're

8 lawyer like I am, and you would agree with me that the Geneva Conventions

9 does not make a distinction between aggressor or non-aggressor, or

10 defender, whatever you want to call the term. All sides to a conflict

11 have to abide by certain rules; right? So it doesn't really make a

12 difference at the end of the day. Would you agree with me on that?

13 A. Yes, I would agree with that absolutely.

14 Q. And in this particular instance, it would appear that a religious

15 leader who was among the family and closest advisors of the Reis-ul-Ulema

16 and one of your own colleagues introduced a booklet that clearly provides

17 for practices that are not -- that are inconsistent not only with the

18 Geneva Conventions but also with the laws as they existed back then in the

19 former Yugoslavia, including Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether it was the

20 Republic, the Socialist Republic, or what have you. Would you agree with

21 me on that?

22 A. Well, you've put things very rightly. However, to present a view

23 of the Koran of universal importance is not -- that is applied, that is to

24 say apply religious rules in -- is differently applied in different

25 environments. So there are some universal positions, but it is quite

1 normal to respect the state legislation in a country and, for example, in

2 -- that Bosnia-Herzegovina is not an Islamic state. And -- with your

3 permission, may I just be allowed to finish.

4 These are instructions. These instructions have to do more with

5 the moral code of conduct. That is the important part. It is a moral

6 code of conduct. So they cannot be applied in Bosnia-Herzegovina, all the

7 instructions.

8 Q. You say that they cannot be applied, but when you look at the

9 instructions they're for Bosnian -- or for fighters within

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They talk about the homeland of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

11 and it's put out by a -- by a mufti of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it would

12 appear, sir - and you can answer yes or no on this question and then we'll

13 move on - that no one within the hierarchy of the Islamic Community, the

14 Reis-ul-Ulema or any of the other muftis, including you, took a public

15 position and said no, this kind of conduct is inconsistent with our

16 values, our laws, the laws of the international community that we have

17 adopted. No one in -- no one from the Islamic Community, the higher-ups,

18 took that position. And by not taking that position, in essence it was

19 like giving a green light to this sort of behaviour.

20 MR. SCOTT: Objection, Your Honour. Again, this has now gone on

21 for about 12 lines of text and is argument rather than questioning, and

22 especially this last part. Not only does Mr. Karnavas state the question,

23 but then he states the answer that he -- his argument that he wants to

24 make. By "giving a green light," Your Honour, that goes beyond putting a

25 question to this witness. It's simply an argument.

1 MR. KARNAVAS:

2 Q. Did you take a public position, sir? Yes or no. There is no

3 explanation on this one. You either stood in front of your congregation,

4 in front of the folks, or got on the radio and said do not apply at least

5 this piece of instruction which talks about liquidation of prisoners. Did

6 you take a public position? Yes or no. The answer --

7 A. Yes, we did, countless times.

8 Q. Publicly.

9 A. And, please, if we're going to be proper, do you have the original

10 of the text of the instructions, the set of instructions?

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in fact, I'm going to be

12 introducing it into evidence. I'm just asking you, did you take a public

13 position where you said, Mujahedin, you folks who have come from Iran or

14 from Afghanistan, or from Iraq or wherever you come from, and you

15 homegrown folks, including the Efendi Halilovic, one of your colleagues,

16 do not liquidate prisoners as these instructions published by the mufti of

17 Zenica for fighters within Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did you take a public

18 position? Yes or no.

19 A. Yes, we did.

20 Q. Okay. With that, I accept it, I'll move on.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: And for the record, Your Honour, the document that

22 I'm referring to is 1D 00505 and I'll be introducing this into evidence.

23 Q. Moving on to Naser Efendi Halilovic. I just have a few questions

24 on this. You indicated last time that you were here that this gentleman

25 was from the Konjic area, wanted to go back to assist in -- in protecting

1 his homeland, fighting against the aggressors, and which is why you, along

2 with the other members of the Islamic Community, I guess gave him a leave

3 of absence, for lack of a better term. It was a leave of absence of his

4 religious duties so he could fight.

5 A. That is correct. And there's nothing strange in that.

6 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me on this point: That when he goes

7 there to the field, that he's not looked upon as just another fighter,

8 another Muslim or Bosniak, but he's looked upon by his colleagues or his

9 -- his -- his friends, his compatriots, his fellow fighters, as someone

10 who is a religious leader? You would agree with me on that, wouldn't you?

11 They would look to him; right?

12 A. They would, yes.

13 Q. Okay. Yes.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And it seems to me -- now, you indicated that you did not get this

16 letter from -- or the attachment that was sent to you along with the

17 letter, and it was introduced as D -- as 2D 00016 by, I believe, my good

18 colleague from Sarajevo, Ms. Nozica.

19 In this particular document, it clearly states that as early 1990,

20 this gentleman joined -- he took -- he took an active role in SDA politics

21 in the Konjic municipality and was promoting fundamentalism in public

22 appearances. Now, this is 1990. Okay? Let's me ask you this: Back in

23 1990, nothing was happening in Zepa or Srebrenica as you had indicated

24 that's why he was going to fight. 1990. Let me tell you, I'm familiar

25 with the war, okay? Nothing happens until about 1992, 1993, in the

1 Srebrenica area. And then, of course, we know what happened in 1995. But

2 that's not a dilemma.

3 But here they're talking about him as early as 1990. Here's one

4 of your fellows or your colleagues or somebody underneath you actively

5 engaging in SDA politics and preaching fundamentalism.

6 A. Can you just tell me who those allegations are that he's

7 propagating fundamentalism, promoting fundamentalism? The rest is quite

8 true. But I'd like to know who made this assessment about promoting

9 fundamentalism.

10 Q. Okay. It's the head of SIS. Okay?

11 A. Ah, well, that's a vital point.

12 Q. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that at some

13 point because, as I understand it - and maybe I don't want to get too far

14 ahead of myself - but as I understand it, you have some sort of experience

15 first-hand with -- with the security services, because at least there are

16 some documentations that you were working for the security services as

17 early as 1976 and onwards; correct?

18 A. No, that's not correct.

19 Q. Okay. But there is documentation. Whether you were working or

20 not, there's documentation. You even have a code name assigned to you in

21 the documentation. I mean, we could go to it right now, if you like.

22 A. Well, with your permission, I can address that.

23 Q. But I'm asking you is there documentation that refers to you as

24 Rusmir? That's your cross name, your code name, Rusmir, as being one of

25 those individuals that was assisting the security services in the old

1 Yugoslavian days, when that was kind of a common practice the US seems to

2 have adopted these days, spying and so on on its own citizens, but back in

3 those days, according to the documentation - it's been made public as

4 well- you had a code name called Rusmir, and apparently you were providing

5 vital information on your fellow members within the Islamic community

6 including -- including Alija Izetbegovic. I'm not saying whether it's

7 true or not. I'm saying there is documentation. Would you agree with me

8 on that?

9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, why doesn't Mr. Kovacic [sic] put the

10 documents to the witness?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to do that -- May I do my cross, Your

12 Honour?

13 MR. SCOTT: This all came up in the -- Everyone in the courtroom

14 knows about it --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we've understood the

16 problem. I assume, Mr. Karnavas, that the document is one you're going to

17 present to us. Because you're making an oral assertion, I assume you're

18 backing it up with a document.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: You're absolutely certain, Your Honour. I would

20 like the gentleman to first say yea or nay. You know, if the documents

21 are there, I can show them. I don't want to have a big discussion. I'm

22 not -- as to whether he was in fact a double agent, a triple agent, or

23 what have you, but if he first acknowledges that there is documentation,

24 then I can show the documentation to him.

25 Q. Do you agree that there is public documentation regarding your

1 activities within the security services? Okay. Very well.

2 Let's look at -- since this is taking longer than I would like,

3 let's look at -- yes what? There is documentation? 1D 00 --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. There is

5 no answer on the transcript.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You asked the question. Shall

8 we wait for the witness's answer?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. I assumed that the translators had

10 already completed my question and the gentleman who, as I understand also

11 speaks English, is --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're going much too fast.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. I apologise to you, sir, as well, and

14 to the translators and interpreters and all the folks in the technical

15 booths.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best thing would be to ask

17 the question again and then we can have the answer.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

19 Q. You have seen or you have heard of documentation out there in the

20 public where it makes reference to you being within the security services

21 as early as 1996 [sic] and onwards, and where even in one particular

22 document it refers to you, with a code name, as Rusmir, R-u-s-m-i-r.

23 A. I was not aware of that.

24 Q. Okay. Well, if I could just show you the documents. I don't want

25 to have a lengthy discussion, but simply if you could look at the

1 documents. I'll first look and show you document D 0047 -- 427, and I

2 merely want you to -- to look at -- The transcript should be 1976 as

3 opposed to 1996. That was on page 12, line 17, and I want to thank my

4 colleague for pointing that out.

5 But if we could show this document. Okay. And I just want you to

6 look at number 40 on the document and see whether that is your name and

7 whether that is your correct date of birth in one of the columns. Again,

8 it's 1D 00427. If it's not working, I have -- we can put it on the ELMO.

9 Madam Usher, if you could help us out here. This document, by the way,

10 came from the --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Scott. Let's

12 have a look at the document on the overhead projector before you say what

13 you have to say.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: And also, yeah, I have a clean copy in English as

15 well. I don't know if Your Honours have a copy of it, but -- they don't.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, potentially very serious allegations are

17 being made against this witness, and the document that's been put in front

18 us now, at least what I see -- if I am missing a page, I'll stand to be -

19 and invite to be corrected, in fact, if I'm missing something, but what

20 has been given to me and what I see is a list of names which is something

21 apparently taken out of a document that starts on number 33. I don't know

22 what 1 through 32 is. I don't even know where this document came from.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, I can help --

24 MR. SCOTT: There should be some provenance given for this

25 document.

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I'm surprised and shocked,

2 actually, that the Prosecutor would even say that, because this was an

3 exhibit in a previous case where he, in fact, not only was the Prosecutor

4 but I also understand might have even directed the witness. So if you

5 look at the very first page, it says that it comes from the Naletelic aka

6 Tuta case. This was in the EDS system. That's where we got it from. Or

7 the JDB, I'm sorry. So that's where the document came from.

8 And then I would like to show the gentleman the next document --

9 incidentally, let's get that answer.

10 Q. Now 40, that is your name, is it not, sir?

11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm not going to accept that, Your

12 Honour. The fact that it came from another case doesn't tell us the

13 source of the document.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: It was accepted in the other case, obviously --

15 MR. SCOTT: I'm waiting for the Court to be free so I can direct

16 my comments. Your Honour, the only thing that Mr. Karnavas told us just

17 now is that it was used in another case. That still tells us nothing

18 about the provenance of the document, where it came from. Is this a

19 Croatian intelligence document that has purely been fabricated to put

20 Mr. Smajkic's name on the list? We don't know where this document came

21 from or what it is at all, and Your Honours certainly don't know and you

22 should be told before it's put to this witness.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, Your Honours --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel --

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I can put it into context, first of all, with

2 the other document.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, when you

4 present a document, to avoid wasting time with objections, you have to

5 tell us where the document comes from, what the source is. It could have

6 been produced during an examination by X or Witness Y, and it was recorded

7 under number P whatever. So that is the procedure.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand. I understand, Mr. President, and

9 there is a technical reason why I haven't done that. However, I do want

10 to register my sort of discontent with the Prosecution, because he very

11 well knows and he's merely obstructing at this point. But this particular

12 document, as I understand it, was found within the contents of Arif

13 Pasalic, who is dead now, and this particular document was introduced at

14 the time in the Tuta/Stela case. And I'll be more than happy to brief the

15 Trial Chamber at some later point on this issue, to lay a more thorough

16 foundation. I just need some leeway. And in any event, given the Rules

17 of Evidence, I'm merely at this point in time asking the gentleman if that

18 is his name, if that is his date of birth, and I would like to connect it

19 with the other document, which is 1D 00472.

20 Q. Is that your correct date of birth, sir?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Can we show the gentleman the next document,

24 1D 00472, please. And for Your Honours, if -- and to save some time, if

25 you could look at the second page of the actual text. It's a proposal.

1 If it's not working on the e-court -- again, could we have Madam Usher --

2 it is. I don't see it. This is another document, 1D 00472. Okay. One

3 is 427 and this one is 472.

4 Excuse me, we could go a lot quicker if we could just put it on

5 the ELMO. I don't see it on the e-court. I'm trying to save some time.

6 I understand. I'd rather do it the old fashioned way, madam. Thank you.

7 Let me have my copy.

8 Q. If you could look at the second page of this document -- well,

9 look at the first page where it says "Proposal." It starts off with:

10 "Smajkic Seid, son of Dervis," and it goes on and on, and the date of

11 birth is 9 February, 1947. That would be you, would it not?

12 A. I don't have that on my screen.

13 Q. Okay. If you go to the proposal, ma'am. In the B/C/S, it would

14 be the second page. It's called "Prijedlog."

15 Okay. You could see from the very first line -- it seems to be

16 your name, and on the very first line it seems to have the same date of

17 birth, 9/2/1947; is that correct? I'm not interested in the content.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And if we could flip to the next page - thank you, Madam

20 Usher - and look at the very last line, the very last line, the second

21 page. And, Your Honours, if you could do the same on that. You would

22 see --

23 MR. Scott: Excuse me. Could we please zero on the language?

24 It's not legible, at least from what I've seen.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, if I may be allowed to do my

1 cross-examination. The gentleman is looking at it. If he cannot read it,

2 he will say so.

3 MR. SCOTT: I can't read it, Your Honours, and I'd like to know --

4 MR. KARNAVAS: It's in English.

5 MR. SCOTT: I can't see it on the screen. If they can enlarge on

6 the screen, please, that's all I'm asking.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I can give him a copy.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but --

9 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues] ... hard copy.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it's legible.

11 MR. KARNAVAS:

12 Q. In the proposal, second page, the very last word, does it not say

13 "Rusmir"? In fact, I'll read the last paragraph: "According to the fact

14 that so far Smajkic put full readiness for consciously, organised

15 undercover and consent executing of the certain tasks of service, and

16 having in mind his honesty, willingness, and skill he has shown at these

17 jobs, we recommend his registration as an associate of SDB under the

18 pseudonym Rusmir."

19 And then we have at the bottom, it says: "Approval from the chief

20 of the centre of SDB, dated 6 March, 1980." That would be about the same

21 time that you became chief mufti of Mostar. It says: "On the basis of

22 Article 46 of the Rules of Procedure, SDB, registration of Associate

23 Rusmir is approved."

24 Were you able to read that, sir?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions on this issue.

2 Now, I just want to go very quickly through some of your testimony.

3 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour. There was no question. We just

4 spent ten minutes going through a document and he says, Can you read that?

5 And there's no question or chance for the witness to clarify?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Again I can understand Mr. Scott's willingness or

7 his predilection to try to assist the witness. The question was, was he a

8 member, early on, way back, and was he aware of public documents? He said

9 no. Then I was told you got to show him the documents. I showed him the

10 documents. I wanted to make sure that this was his correct date of birth.

11 He acknowledged it. I move on. I made my point. He said he wasn't

12 aware. I showed them. These are public documents. Now, we all are aware,

13 I'll move on. Where is the dilemma other than obstruction from the

14 Prosecution?

15 MR. SCOTT: Are they public documents or are they some

16 confidential intelligence report that this man has never seen before?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: It's from a book, Your Honour. It's from a book.

18 He has the hard copy of the book, he has the first page, and the

19 Prosecution is well aware of this.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. But -- well,

21 the Defence has showed you a document. It -- counsel read out the last

22 paragraph. The Prosecution rose to object. Now, at this point, do you

23 have any comments to make or are you saying that what is written down is

24 false? Do you have a comment to make? Do you have any reaction when

25 faced with this? There we have it. What can you tell us?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Of course

2 I do have a comment, and I have very many things to say in response, but

3 of course I do not wish to burden you with a description of the situation

4 that obtained at the time in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it is a notorious

5 untruth that I was a collaborator of the secret service of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina, the secret security service of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It

7 is, however, true, Your Honours, that not only I myself but many religious

8 dignitaries had occasion to have individual conversations on specific

9 topics, and we were invited for such conversations in order to give our

10 perception of things, of developments.

11 In view of the fact that the former communist regime actually was

12 against religious work, the assertion of religion as such, we were

13 constantly under observation, so that in some situations, in some delicate

14 situations, security staff would invite me too personally for talks. But

15 never, ever, and I underscore that for the -- for a hundred times, I was

16 never ever asked to be a collaborator of that service but only to impart

17 some information which was of relevance at the time in respect of the then

18 current interests of the service.

19 So our trips to other countries, particularly Arabic countries - I

20 studied in Islamic countries on a specific mission - always were attended

21 by a network of observers, namely surveillors as to whom I had met, what

22 conversations I had had, and so on. And as to what they put down in their

23 notebooks and what records they had made, I really have no idea because no

24 one ever showed that to me nor did I have any idea that such a document

25 existed until this book was published that was today shown and which is

1 now already accessible to the broad public.

2 The Islamic community undertook an investigation in that respect

3 and actually put an end to that matter as such, having come to this

4 conclusion which I have just described. So that after such talks that we

5 had from time to time, I have no idea what those people put down and how

6 they portrayed those talks. Of course, they would perhaps be expected to

7 boast that they had managed to recruit some people for their activities,

8 but I don't know that and I can't say that was so.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue, Counsel

10 Karnavas.

11 MR. KARNAVAS:

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... first you denied knowing it,

13 then you said it was published in a book, then you said that you first

14 learned of it here, then you said that the Islamic community did an

15 investigation. That's -- that's your answer today, in a nutshell, and

16 that you never worked maybe other than having some informative talks with

17 them.

18 A. Yes, yes. That is correct.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... we can move on. In your --

20 in your -- and I'm going to go through some topics, and hopefully I can be

21 through with my cross-examination within the next 45 minutes or so.

22 Now, when you testified last time that you were here - and this is

23 24 May, 2006 - you were asked a question about having to go up to Split

24 with Mr. Topic, appearing on television, and at which time Mr. Topic had

25 indicated words to the effect that the east side is for the Serbs, the

1 west side is for the -- for the Croats, and of course the joke was that

2 the Neretva was for the Muslims. Do you recall that exchange? And that

3 could be found, actually -- I'm paraphrasing but the entire exchange is

4 from page 2493 all the way to 2496 of the transcript dated 24 May, 2006.

5 But you recall that exchange; right?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And in fact, what you -- you then went on to indicate that that

8 more or less, at least in your mind, verified what had come out in the

9 press that Mr. Mate Boban and Karadzic at Graz had formed an agreement?

10 A. We can feel that in the field. Namely, this agreement was

11 reflected in the field.

12 Q. Okay. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that.

13 But before we get to feelings and reflections, I want to make sure that

14 your testimony was that based on Topic's remarks - and this was prior to

15 the liberation, as I understand it, of the east side, okay? - it was your

16 understanding and belief that Topic's remarks verified, at least in your

17 mind, that there had been agreement between Mate Boban and Karadzic, and

18 that's what you testified to under oath; correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Okay. All right. And in fact, a document was shown that at least

21 does not bear the signature of Mr. Mate Boban, remember? There was --

22 there was an exhibit or a document that was shown purporting what the

23 agreement was all about, but we haven't seen an actual agreement with the

24 signature, correct, and a stamp?

25 A. I shall not enter into that. I did not have it myself, but there

1 was a discussion on it last time as you yourself just indicated. There

2 was a discussion.

3 Q. Now, I just want to share with you -- I just want to share with

4 you and perhaps with everyone who is following this trial a letter that

5 was sent by Mate Boban to -- it's a public statement, actually, to the

6 group of Croatia -- Croatians in the diaspora. It's dated 17 May, 1992,

7 it's 1D 00428. We may need to get this on the ELMO because the signature

8 line and the stamp may not be reflected in the e-court. Thank you very

9 much, Madam Usher, I appreciate the assistance. And, Your Honours, I

10 believe you might have it as well, assuming we are efficient today.

11 And if we could look at at least the very second paragraph. Look

12 at both pages, if you would. If you want to look at -- just look at the

13 first page, look at the last page. I want you to look at the last page

14 primarily so you could at least tell us whether that purports to be -- I

15 know you may or may not be aware of the signature, but with the seal and

16 in Boban's -- Mate Boban's signature, would -- would that at least seem to

17 be correct?

18 You don't know.

19 A. I can't say.

20 Q. All right. But nonetheless it does say Mate Boban, does it not?

21 And that seal does look like the seal of the -- that was being used at the

22 time by Mr. Boban; correct? Yeah, okay?

23 A. Probably.

24 Q. Now, if we could go to the very first page, the very first page,

25 because we'll see there at the very top of the page on the -- on the left

1 side, we'll see a date 17 May, 1992. 17 May, 1992. I'm underscoring that

2 because this date, as I understand it, precedes, precedes the liberation

3 of the east side of Mostar, which by this point was more or less under

4 siege and occupied by the JNA, Montenegrin, Chetnik, you name it, whatever

5 you want to call it, forces that were attacking at the time; correct?

6 A. That is the date on which activities were being undertaken to

7 liberate the city.

8 Q. Right. Now -- and it would seem that this date more or less

9 coincides with your trip -- at least, if we -- if we do -- you know, if we

10 try to factor in when you -- you claim you went to Split, this would have

11 been just about the time that you went to Split and appeared on television

12 with Mr. Topic, on or about. I don't know the exact date, but it's around

13 this period. And it definitely would be post Graz meeting between Boban

14 and Karadzic; correct?

15 A. I can't say with precision what particular date it was and whether

16 it was after the 21st of May or on the 19th.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. But it was in the spirit. But let me just tell you, if we wish to

19 clear things up, when Mr. Topic appeared on the screen to speak, the

20 caption underneath --

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. -- said the mayor --

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

24 A. -- of Mostar. So it's quite possible it was the 21st.

25 Q. My question was is this about the time? Yes or no or I don't

1 know; one of the three.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you claim that based on the conversations, whenever they may

4 be, they're in the record from your previous testimony, that Topic's

5 remarks verified in your mind that there had been agreement between Mate

6 Boban and Karadzic. And now what I want to do is focus your attention to

7 paragraph 2 of this document dated 17 May, 1992. And just the very first

8 line. I'm not going to go through the entire document. We don't have

9 three days, as I would like to take you through to cross-examine you, but

10 all we can see from the first line from the second paragraph: "The talks

11 in Graz, when it concerns the Croatian side, didn't have any intention of

12 signing any document that would contribute the splitting of BiH, or to

13 denying rights to Muslims, the constitutive nation of BiH."

14 It doesn't get any clearer than that, does it? You see that, do

15 you not, sir? And by the way, he's addressing a group of Croatians in the

16 diaspora, many, of course, have -- many of them have their own claims of

17 where the borders of the Republic of Croatia ought to be. And yet here he

18 is, the president of HZ HB, telling the folks out in the diaspora, who by

19 the way - and correct me if I'm wrong - at this period in history are

20 sending money into Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Croatians in order to fend

21 off the Serb aggression; correct? And he's telling them this -- there was

22 no agreement.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it's not --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. SCOTT: It's not my practice to interrupt cross-examination so

1 often. I understand the latitude of cross-examination. But as long as

2 Mr. Karnavas continues doing it incorrectly, I have no choice but to

3 continue to rise to my feet. Look at your screen right now, Your Honour.

4 I invite the Court's attention to the screen. Look at this question.

5 Look at this question: It goes on for some 20, 25 lines of text, argument

6 after argument after argument.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll move on, Your Honour.

8 MR. SCOTT: Don't just move on. Don't just put the question and

9 then say "I'll move on." Either put a question to the witness or don't.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll do it in baby steps, Your Honour. At this

11 point in time --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, first of all,

13 try and speak slower, please, because the interpreters are having a hard

14 time following, and so is the court reporter, and sometimes some of your

15 words are left out because of that. So try and do that for the benefit of

16 one and all.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise. I'm trying to work within this new

18 system, Your Honour, of trying to condense my cross. So ...

19 Q. At this point in time the war was raging, was it not, in Bosnia?

20 A. Yes, it was.

21 Q. The Croats -- the Croats, like the Muslims, you know, are

22 depending on the folks in the diaspora to send them aid, including money,

23 to assist in their defence; right?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. And I don't think it's a great secret, we're not going to be

1 revealing anything, that there were elements of the Croatian diaspora who

2 had certain ideas, and perhaps even still have certain ideas today, as to

3 how far the borders of Croatia extend to, and some may even say all the

4 way up to the Drina. Would you agree with me on that?

5 A. That is right. That is so.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... so at this point in time, in

7 history, when Boban, as the president of the HZ HB, is relying on

8 financial assistance from the diaspora, the very same folks who may

9 harbour ideas as to where the borders may be, he is saying concretely in

10 his letter here, in his answer, that, one, there was no agreement to split

11 up. That's what we read. Would you agree with me on that, that that's

12 what it says?

13 A. Perhaps that is what it says, but that is not a document to be --

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 A. -- believed. It is of a duplicitous nature, as far as documents

16 are concerned.

17 Q. Then it goes on that talks were held on the request of conference

18 on BiH of the European Union and after the conference they were held

19 bilaterally. Does it not say that? Just give me a yes or no.

20 A. I actually did not follow this text.

21 Q. All right. Further down, it says: "There was no secret

22 arrangements of splitting the BiH or 'betrayal' of anyone's interests."

23 Do you see that? Okay.

24 A. I do.

25 Q. And then if we -- then if we go to the third paragraph - and this

1 is just the last point I want to raise on this before we move on - it says

2 in the second sentence of the third paragraph: "Representatives of Muslim

3 people didn't show up because they couldn't leave Sarajevo due to

4 blockades." Does it not say that?

5 A. I'm sorry, I'm slightly lost in this text --

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 A. -- but if you say so. Where is it?

8 Q. Third paragraph. The paragraph -- third paragraph, and it starts

9 with the second sentence: "Representatives of Muslim people didn't show

10 up because they couldn't leave Sarajevo due to blockades." Right? And --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- historically speaking, historically speaking - just so we can

13 thread this needle - at that particular point in time, at that particular

14 point in time, Sarajevo was indeed under siege, was it not? There were

15 blockades. It was being heavily attacked by the aggressors. Okay.

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Thank you. I'll move on. And we're going to have to move on a

18 little quicker than I -- hopefully I'll be a little more efficient.

19 Now, you testified -- you -- you testified about a letter that was

20 shown to you with respect to -- a letter that you got from Mr. Topic where

21 you thought it was threatening in some -- in some manner. Apparently you

22 had made some requests, and he came back, and you took that letter to be

23 somewhat threatening. It is P 00731. If we can have it on -- on the --

24 on the e-court. If not, we have plenty of copies over here. I just want

25 to touch on this a little bit and then go on to another document.

1 But in essence - and you're familiar with this document - in this

2 particular document he's telling you that -- that you need to devote

3 yourself primarily to spiritual matters and not politics; right?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. And that may not necessarily be a threat, is it? I mean,

6 sometimes politics and religion shouldn't mix. I'm not saying always, but

7 sometimes, at least.

8 A. Actually, I felt it on my own skin.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. You could put it that way, yes.

11 Q. Now, one of the complaints is about -- one of the complaints is

12 about -- that you're raising is about the premises, that you don't have

13 sufficient premises, you being the mufti, the head of the Islamic

14 community, and of course you have certain responsibilities and what have

15 you. So is it not a fact that Mr. Topic is telling you, basically, be

16 patient? Is he not saying that? And I can read the relevant portions of

17 it. But he's telling you to be patient. Is he not saying that? Yes or

18 no, and then we'll move on. Okay?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. I'm familiar with the content, I don't have to read the text.

24 Q. Okay. And he says -- at least at one point, he says: "The war

25 government of the Croatian Defence Council is working to find

1 accommodation for your mufti offices. As soon as legally valid acts are

2 adopted in relation to denationalisation, we shall enable the owners to

3 take possession of their property whenever possible." He says that, does

4 he not? Is that a yes? You have to -- for the record you have to say

5 yes, or no.

6 A. That is what the letter says.

7 Q. Okay. Now, when he's talking about denationalisation, he's

8 talking about property that was actually taken, confiscated, used,

9 whatever the word you may want, borrowed, by the old communists or

10 socialists, whatever your predilection is. Basically some call themselves

11 communists, some socialists, but by and large they confiscated properties

12 and now the denationalisation refers to giving back the property to the

13 rightful owners; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. That is what it says.

17 Q. All right. And I take it the Islamic community wasn't spared,

18 like any of the other communities or individuals. Properties were taken

19 from the Islamic community by the old socialists or communists.

20 A. Most of the property -- actually, the communist regime took most

21 of the property from the Islamic community at that time, as well as from

22 other religious communities.

23 Q. Now, if we can look at --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel, please.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Sorry.

1 Q. If we can look at 1D 00436. 1D 00436. I don't know if it's on

2 this electronic -- but we have the ELMO, thank God.

3 If we can look at this document, sir, and just look at it for a

4 second, and while you're looking at it, let me say it looks at the bottom

5 of it, it says Friday, 24 July, 1992. It looks like it comes from a --

6 the Official Gazette, and it's titled "Decision on the housing of the

7 mufti's office of Herzegovina and the board of the Islamic regional

8 community." Does it not say that, sir?

9 A. It is not signed by Mr. Topic. Anyone could have written this

10 document.

11 Q. Excuse me. It says at the bottom "Official Gazette." It's from

12 the Official Gazette. You know as well as I do that they don't sign every

13 decision on the actual Official Gazette. They merely publish so folks

14 like us, later on, can see what exactly is going on in the community and

15 what laws are being passed, and what decisions. And this in fact, sir, is

16 not a decision, and does it not say -- does it not say that article 1:

17 "The public housing and utilities office shall find an appropriate

18 solution to help the Islamic religious community house the mufti's office

19 of Herzegovina and the board of the Islamic religious community." It says

20 that, right? It either says it or it doesn't. Does it say it? Okay, we

21 will --

22 A. It does say that.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... get there step-by-step, trust

24 me.

25 A. I accept that.

1 Q. Okay. Then we --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are overlapping again, for the

3 record. Thank you.

4 MR. KARNAVAS:

5 Q. Then we go to article 2. It says the business premises next to

6 the -- this particular mosque in Racina [phoen], the former Merkur Mostar

7 shoe shop are here by returned - returned - to the Islamic religious

8 community since it is their rightful owner. So here is an example of a

9 decision giving back, and so on and so forth. Now I don't want to dwell

10 too much on this, but at least on 24 July, 1992, there is a decision

11 published in the Islamic -- in the Official Gazette where they're

12 attempting, at least, to return some property to -- that belonged to the

13 Islamic community and at the same time making a promise - because that's

14 what it says, it's a promise - shall find, okay? Does it make that

15 promise? Yes or no. There's a promise in there.

16 A. Yes. It says that a solution shall be found.

17 Q. Right. Now, I don't want to -- I know that we're going -- we're

18 not going to agree on this, whether a solution to your satisfaction was

19 found, but you would agree with me on this, that -- hold on. I'm saying

20 that a solution to your satisfaction was not found, was not found. A

21 solution to your satisfaction may not have been found. However - and this

22 is a big "however" - that period of time was a rather difficult period of

23 time for Mostar, both west and east, was it not?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. And let's face it, that city was not ready to absorb all the

1 refugees that had come into the city and accommodate all the displaced

2 people, including you being one of them, and all of your offices; right?

3 A. Yes. There were problems with finding adequate accommodation and

4 housing.

5 Q. And it would appear, at least, if I understand you correctly, we

6 have a decision here which shows a good faith effort is being made but

7 nonetheless you feel -- you felt then and perhaps you feel today that they

8 weren't moving fast enough or good enough to accommodate you where

9 perhaps, when it came to the Catholics and the Catholic bishop, they

10 showed a greater preference or a greater expediency in trying to resolve

11 the bishop's problems. That's what this misunderstanding was all about.

12 A. You are quite right, and that is what I --

13 Q. All right.

14 A. -- think still today.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... end of the day we're going to

16 have more in common than you think. Now, I want to talk a little bit

17 about -- you indicated that the streets were changed, okay? Now -- and at

18 one point a document was shown to you, and I believe it was from a

19 Croatian -- go ahead. Keep it short. Go ahead.

20 A. I have to intervene at this point, with your permission. I went

21 to see Mr. Topic. I went to his office and asked him to find

22 accommodation. Please believe me. He said, "We'll find something. I'll

23 try and find something." However, then the bishop came to see me, the new

24 bishop, from the Vatican, coming to Mostar. I'm not sleeping nights, I

25 can't sleep at night because I have to find him suitable accommodation. I

1 don't mind. I like the bishop to have the right accommodation. But the

2 building that they chose was wrong, because it was the building of the

3 Bosniak mayor, which in a way, the person responsible should not give the

4 residence of a mayor to a bishop.

5 Q. Okay. If I -- okay. I understand that you have some

6 disagreements with respect to how Mr. Topic handled the situation, but you

7 would agree with me, sir, that you were not the only one that was in his

8 office, asking for premises. I'm sure there were a lot of other people,

9 and I'm sure a lot of them feel the same way, looking at other neighbours

10 or other friends or other individuals, thinking that perhaps they should

11 have a better accommodation. So by and large, Mr. Topic was trying to

12 make the best. Perhaps he could have done better for you, but at the end

13 of the day, there's no threat in that letter. Okay.

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Now, if we could go on to another issue, and that's the issue of

16 the streets. Mr. --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, please slow

18 down. Thank you.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Sorry. Okay. Everybody can take a deep breath,

20 okay, including myself.

21 Q. Now, on the streets. You were shown a document by the Prosecutor.

22 I believe it was P 08538. I don't need to see it. I don't need to see

23 it. We don't need to see it. It was from a newspaper, Dalmacija

24 something; right? Free Dalmacija?

25 A. Yes, Slobodna Dalmacija, Free Dalmatia.

1 Q. And I may be wrong but I believe the date may have been outside of

2 the relevant period we're talking about. It might be back 1995. But in

3 any event, based on that document you read and you told us that certain

4 street names were changed and certain street names were adopted that

5 brought back memories of a very dark period. Basically the Ustasha

6 period. Okay? For some it was a dark period, and in fact it was a dark

7 period; right?

8 A. Yes, that is true. I said that.

9 Q. Now that we agree on that, I just want to show you a decision, and

10 this is -- I'm going to be referring to -- to 439. I guess it's D -- D --

11 1D 00439. If we could look at this, and perhaps if you could have handy

12 440 and 462. 439, 440, 462. We'll do it real quickly. And I believe I

13 also need to show you -- So if we look at this on 439, he says "Priority

14 --" It's a decision. "Priority. The names of the streets in Mostar in

15 ideological meanings will be changed." And then it goes on, Article II,

16 all the names with Yugoslavian and ideological meanings. Again we're

17 talking about the communists and the socialists; right? Will expire.

18 That's what it says. That's that first decision, 439. Would you agree

19 with me on that? Dated 6 November, 1992. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Now, if you look at another decision - and I'm looking at

22 document 440 - on the appointment of the commission for the change of

23 names on the streets in Mostar. Again: 440, dated 6 November, 1992. It

24 appears that there's a department of communal housing affairs and

25 reconstruction is in charge to recommend members of the commission for

1 change of the names in the streets of Mostar. So it appears that a

2 commission is going to be set up on 6 November, 1992. Does it not say

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now, if we could go to 462, and here I want to draw your

6 attention. Here's where I want to draw your attention because this

7 appears to be the actual decision where the names are changed. We have

8 what existed or what was being changed to. The document on the second

9 page shows that it's 30 December, 1992. And if we go all the way down the

10 list, we can see very clearly what is being changed, and at least my

11 understanding from consulting with my colleagues, not having the benefit

12 of knowing the history or the language, it would appear to me that none of

13 these names reflect names of a dark period or names of individuals that

14 were of a particular political persuasion, primarily fascists.

15 Now, if we go all the way down to the bottom, the very last line -

16 and here, Your Honours, I'm drawing your close scrutiny and attention -

17 not only to last line but also we're going to look at your own testimony,

18 because apparently you make reference to this particular street, and it's

19 on page 2565 of the record dated 25 May, 2006, and in fact it's between

20 lines 11 and 21, you, sir, mistakenly, perhaps because you were relying on

21 a document that the Prosecution showed you, that newspaper said that the

22 street of Aleksa Santica was changed to a Dr. Mile Budak Street.

23 A. Yes, that is true.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. And the name stands today.

1 Q. I didn't say whether it stands or not, but this is what you said.

2 In this decision reflected on 30 December, 1992 -- now, whether it was

3 changed later on or not, I don't know, but at least in this decision, does

4 it not say that this very same street, Aleksa Santica is nullified and the

5 street will be given back the previous name? In other words, they're

6 adopting the names of the pre-socialist communist era of Racina, or

7 Rachina, or Rasina. I don't see the accent there. Or Ricina.

8 A. Ricina.

9 Q. R-i-c-i-n-a. This is the very same street, is it not? At least,

10 in this decision. I haven't been to Mostar lately to look up the street,

11 but in this decision does it not say that? Yes or no.

12 A. Ricina is the name of an area. I live there, and within that

13 particular area or district there is a street which is called Aleksa

14 Santic Street which is now called Dr. Mile Budak, and now there are

15 political battles in Mostar and there is a commission that has been set up

16 to do away with that new name, but they haven't succeeded yet.

17 Q. Well, there's a commission all over Bosnia in almost every city.

18 You know it and I know it. But let's face it, at least in this decision,

19 we have Mr. Topic, as of 30th December, 1992, issuing a decision that's

20 published in the Official Gazette that the name of the street is supposed

21 to have its previous name, does it not? Now, whether somebody else

22 changed it later on, I don't know. I'm just showing you the decision and

23 we can move on.

24 A. That would be a good thing had it stayed that way, or had anything

25 been done, for that matter, along those lines.

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... but you acknowledge -- I

2 guess I need to nail this point down. You acknowledge that we have a

3 decision in the Official Gazette that is dated December 30, 1992, that

4 does not adopt a name of some fascist doctor but, rather, it adopts the

5 old name. That is in the Official Gazette. That's what we read. We

6 agree on that; yes or no. Yes or no, do we agree?

7 A. I've just seen that. That's what it says.

8 Q. Okay. All right. Okay. Now, we're going to go to the -- now

9 we're going to go to the names of the schools.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Sorry.

12 Q. I'm going to refer to a document 1D 00438 - 1D 00438 - and again I

13 have a decision here, hopefully we'll get it for you. Do we have an extra

14 copy for Madam Usher? I think we should adopt a decision in this

15 courtroom to just use the ELMO, Mr. President. It's much easier for me.

16 Now, this is a decision. Again, Mr. Topic, again it looks like --

17 it's an official document, or it comes from the opstina Mostar. That's

18 the municipality of Mostar; right? In here you have the preamble, and

19 again if we look under Article 2 and you see the names that are being

20 changed, they're changed to rather innocuous names, first primary school,

21 second primary, third, fourth, "i tako dalje"; and so on and so forth.

22 Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And it would appear that a lot of these things that were

25 going on were not motivated against the Muslims, in other words that they

1 were trying to take out a Muslim name and insert a Croat name, but rather

2 during that period, at least, these folks wanted to get rid of any traces

3 on streets or public buildings that reminded them of communists or

4 socialists; right? At least that's what we see from here. Because First

5 Primary is pretty innocuous. Would you agree with me on that?

6 A. That's what it says in the document.

7 Q. Okay. All right. And it's a public document, is it not?

8 A. [No interpretation].

9 Q. Okay. Good. And incidentally, since I'm on the subject, since

10 I'm on the subject, you indicated on the record that the name of the

11 university was changed to Croatian University. That's in the transcript.

12 I can get my hands on it right now, but that's what you said. And before

13 we get to the -- before I show you these other documents, first that

14 university had the name of a particular individual. It was a Muslim name,

15 did it not? This institution.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, in -- but that person was also a communist, was he

18 not? First and foremost. I mean, we can agree whether -- I mean, whether

19 he was a Muslim, a Serb, or a Croat, the bottom line is he was a

20 communist; right? Okay.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I guess some folks identified him with being a communist, did

23 they not? And that's why the name was removed. And in fact, sir, in fact

24 - because I want to speed up a little bit - you are incorrect, are you

25 not, when you stated that the name of the university was changed to

1 Croatian University. That is not accurate, is it, sir?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. I'll slow down. Sorry. Sorry.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, it's not only a question of the

4 university which bears the name of Dzemal Bijedic, but the post office,

5 for example.

6 MR. KARNAVAS:

7 Q. Mufti --

8 A. Ante Kovacic.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. It was called the Croatian post office.

11 Q. But it is your testimony -- it is your testimony -- and let me say

12 it one more time: It is your testimony, back then and it is today, that

13 that university changed from Dzemal Bijedic to Croatian University. That

14 is your testimony, and I have it right here. I have you on the record.

15 Is that your testimony? Yes, no, I misspoke; those are the three choices.

16 A. The university became the Croatian University whereas it was the

17 Dzemal Bijedic University.

18 Q. All right. I'll take that. I'll take that. Now, let's look at a

19 couple of documents.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just to be precise, Dzemal

21 Bijedic, the name that the university took, who was this man? Who was

22 Dzemal Bijedic? Who was he? Was he a communist? Who was he?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Dzemal Bijedic was from

24 Mostar. He was Mostar born and bred, and he was the Prime Minister of

25 Yugoslavia. He had two terms of office when President Tito [Realtime

1 transcript read in error "Izetbegovic"] was the president of Yugoslavia.

2 MR. KARNAVAS:

3 Q. There you go. I rest my case. He was a communist.

4 Now, we go on. I want to show you a couple of documents just very

5 quickly. Document 1D 00382 and then 383. 382, 383, very quickly. I'm

6 almost coming to the conclusion of my cross-examination.

7 If we could look at these two documents, sir, at the very top.

8 And I should -- and while you're looking at them, the record should

9 reflect President Tito. This is page 39, line 9. As far as I know,

10 Mr. Izetbegovic was never president of Yugoslavia, though he probably

11 would have wished to have been.

12 Okay, now, if we look at these two decisions sir, at the very top,

13 at the very top, at the preambular, it says: Pursuant to Article 9,

14 paragraph 3, indent 5, of degree on establishment and work of university

15 in Mostar. University in Mostar. And it has the national gazette number

16 6/92, that being probably June of 1992. So here, in June of 1992, there

17 appears to be a decision or decree -- okay. Hold on. Is this -- is this

18 -- let me put down. If you could put down -- put the section that --

19 that can be seen in this open section. Okay?

20 So you could see -- and over here, in fact, there's an appointment

21 and the appointment is of Dr. Mehmed Behmen. Do you see that, sir? Shall

22 be appointed the dean, the dean of mechanical engineering in Mostar. Do

23 you see that, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. So from this document here, at least we can glean that the

1 name of the university is not Croatian University but, rather, it's

2 University of Mostar, University in Mostar, to be precise, making

3 reference to a decree that's in the national gazette. And again, because

4 you made reference to all the Muslims have been thrown out of their

5 positions, here we have Dr. Mehmed Behmen to be appointed a mechanical

6 engineer, and it would be fair to say, sir, that this gentleman is a

7 Muslim, today a Bosniak; correct? And that calls for a yes or no. Okay.

8 A. I know the man. I know Mr. Behmen.

9 Q. Yes, but is he a Muslim?

10 A. Yes, he is.

11 Q. And there's no dilemma, there's no dilemma that it says here

12 University in Mostar. At least, in this document. There's no dilemma.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now if we get the document 383, the next document. You can

15 give these explanations to the Prosecutor because all I'm trying to

16 establish is, based on these documents, official documents, what they

17 reflect. These are the documents that the public would have seen, and

18 again 1D 00383, same preambular, again University of Mostar. Date of this

19 one is November 23, 1992. A Dr. Faruk Pavlovic shall be appointed Vice

20 Chancellor - Vice Chancellor - of the University in Mostar. Again, Dr.

21 Faruk Pavlovic, is he not, sir, a Muslim? And I'm sure you know the

22 gentleman.

23 A. Those are cadres who at that time were -- showed obedience to

24 Croatian policy.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

1 A. But yes, it's true that he was a Muslim.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. I have to say this. Please allow me to finish. Just one more

4 sentence.

5 Q. Sir, he's either a Muslim or he's not a Muslim. He's either --

6 A. I said he was, yes, but I'd like to say something with respect to

7 the document.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Allow the witness to answer.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to draw your attention to

11 the fact that this is the Official Gazette of the Croatian Community of

12 Herceg-Bosna. It didn't the Official Gazette of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. I understand that. There's no dilemma on that either, and thank

14 you for that clarification. Thank you.

15 A. It's the People's Gazette of the Croatian Community.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... unfortunate. It would have

17 been nice to have a few days.

18 Now, I want to go through the schools, because, again, there was

19 some indication, at least from you, that the appointments in the schools

20 had changed. And if I could go through these documents very quickly.

21 They're 1D -- 1D 00501, 500 and 499. We can go in this order. Just very

22 quickly.

23 Now, just to save time, it says at the top of this document

24 Official Gazette of HVO Municipality of Mostar, okay?

25 A. That's right.

1 Q. Super. Now, if we could go to this, it says the appointment of

2 the executive principal 6 elementary school, and then we see the name

3 Samija Sefo, and it's 8 April, 1993. Okay. The name of the school is the

4 executive -- well, it's -- there's a temporary -- appointment of temporary

5 executive principal of the 6th elementary school in Mostar.

6 If we go to the next one, 1D 00500, again from the Official

7 Gazette, again April 8. Here is the 7th elementary school appointment of

8 the executive principal, Rasim Jakirovic. I hope I'm not butchering their

9 names too much, but ...

10 A. Jakirovic.

11 Q. Now, again, a Muslim, is he not, as was Samija. They're both

12 Muslims.

13 A. At the time there were only Muslims in those schools because

14 that's -- that's right, yes, yes, but the Croatian children were not --

15 yes, but that's the answer.

16 Q. But -- and this is signed by --

17 A. If you link the two, both parts of the answer.

18 Q. All right. All right. But at least -- at least they're not

19 appointing a Croat to a Muslim school where there are Muslim children.

20 And let's face it, there are some neighbourhoods where all Muslims, or

21 Bosniaks, are living, and all Croats and what have you, right? So if you

22 go up to the mahala, whatever it is, you might find all Muslim children

23 and at least there they are sensitive enough to appoint someone of their

24 own background as principal of that school.

25 Okay, and you would agree if we look at the last document,

1 1D 00499, again 8 April, Edin Music. And this is for an appointment of

2 temporary executive principal in the school of -- you're going to have to

3 help me out here, sir. Dreznica, right? Again, Edin Music.

4 A. Edin Music.

5 Q. Edin Music is a Muslim?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Okay. Super. Okay, we have one more, and this is 466. I

8 don't know if Madam Usher has it. I have it here. We could put it on

9 very quickly. Again, this is 24 March -- 24 March, 1993, again from the

10 Official Gazette of the municipality of Mostar HVO, and this is for

11 appointing of the deputy head of service of the public relations in the

12 office of the president of the HVO. Here we have a Mehmed Vejlagic

13 [phoen]?

14 A. Mehmed Vejzagic. And that man changed his religion and remained a

15 Catholic.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. So he wasn't chosen just by chance.

18 Q. All right. Okay. But they're Muslims.

19 A. He was one.

20 Q. Okay. When you say "he was," is that with a capital M or small

21 M? If you recall the old days when they made the distinction between

22 Muslim with a capital M and muslim with a small M. And for those of us

23 who don't know, what is that distinction from the old days? One deals

24 with religion and the other deals with nationality; right?

25 A. Well, I lived at -- in those old days.

1 Q. Okay. All right. And we could have some long discussions on that

2 one, but we won't. So this one now is 448, 1D 00448. It's a decision

3 dated 23 November, 1992, on the appointment of temporary director of Hamo

4 Cerkic company in Mostar, and we have in -- Alija Curic.

5 A. Alija Curic.

6 Q. Okay. No dilemma there. And -- and by the way, this company,

7 Hamo Cerkic, what does it do? It's a Muslim name, too, isn't it?

8 A. It was, well, a sewing company.

9 Q. Yes, but nonetheless --

10 A. Textiles. It was in the eastern part of town.

11 Q. Okay. But nonetheless --

12 A. And --

13 Q. But nonetheless, you would agree with me that she is a Muslim and

14 she is being appointed as the temporary director of a company, albeit on

15 the east side -- on the east side; correct? He, sorry. I don't know why

16 I assumed it was a female. Okay. All right.

17 Now, we --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- some of those appointments, and I just wanted to clear up a

20 couple of matters, if necessary. This one letter, I guess I'm troubled a

21 little bit, I have to tell you. I'm a little troubled with this P 00477.

22 The document that was shown to you --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Karnavas, unfortunately,

24 it's time to break.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: We were a little bit late starting, so if I could

1 have three minutes and I'm finished. I'm finished, I promise.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, but three minutes.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Three Greek minutes, which are a little bit

4 longer than ...

5 Q. P 0477, as I understand it, was a document that -- that was --

6 that you were shown dated 14 September, 1992. This is a document that

7 appeared to be a copy or something that was -- yeah. It appears to be a

8 copy. It says here "prepis," and it didn't have a signature and that was

9 a Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic?

10 A. Hadziosmanovic.

11 Q. Okay. We'll get there. Now, when -- oh, "prepis," by the way,

12 because if we look at -- if we look at the version in B/C/S, "prepis,"

13 what does that mean? Does that copy or does it mean rewrite? Okay. I'll

14 show it to you. I'll show it to you. Sorry. Just look at it.

15 A. "Prepis," as far as I understand it, this was somebody that typed

16 out a document in the original, and that's why it says "prepis." And now

17 you would have to go to the administrative department in town to have a

18 stamp put on it so as to show that that copy is true to the original. So

19 it's a form of copy.

20 Q. Yes. Exactly --

21 A. Or --

22 Q. -- and you could not have described it better. In other words --

23 A. Certified copy.

24 Q. In other words it's not necessarily a copy, it's a rewrite. We

25 don't have in this document a stamp or signature, but it is your

1 understanding, sir -- it is your understanding that this was a document

2 that was provided to you - to you physically - by the gentleman whose name

3 is at the end, Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic. Yeah, Hadziosmanovic.

4 MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of the question, Your Honour. I

5 object to the form of the question, Your Honour. The witness did not say

6 it is a rewrite, he said it is a copy, and only Mr. Karnavas continues to

7 use the word it's a rewrite. The witness never said that. He said it's a

8 copy.

9 MR. KARNAVAS:

10 Q. Is a rewrite or is it a copy? Which of the two? A copy means it

11 was put on a copy machine and it was copied. Or was it retyped as in

12 rewritten or -- which of the two? To me it doesn't really matter, but

13 which of the two? And what does "prepis" mean actually?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So what is your answer to this

15 question, Witness?

16 MR. KARNAVAS:

17 Q. Is it a copy or is it a rewrite? Perhaps -- let me solve the

18 dilemma. What does --

19 A. I am going to -- well, I told you what it meant. It's a copy when

20 you put it in a machine and you get a copy out. This is transcribed. You

21 type out a document as it is, as it stands, and later on it has to be

22 certified.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. So it's a certified copy or certified transcription, certified by

25 someone with a stamp. But I didn't receive this from Ismet

1 Hadziosmanovic. You might have misunderstood. We have this document, but

2 I did not get this document from Ismet Hadziosmanovic.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. So if you've understood it that way, then you've misunderstood.

5 Q. Well, I understood it the way it came out in the transcript. It

6 may be perhaps you misspoke or maybe we just misunderstood each other, but

7 just so there's no dilemma, I did see this in the transcript itself where

8 you said that it was provided to you, and in fact I have it here on page

9 2519 to -- page 2519, on 24 May, 2006, line 4: "Witness: I believe

10 that's correct. This is what I received from Ismet without a signature

11 whereas he sent it to various other addressees, letters with the

12 signature." You said that, did you not? Yes or no. Maybe you misspoke

13 but you said that because I'm sure our good translators would not have

14 made such an error. This is what you said. Yes or no.

15 A. I don't doubt the interpreters, but I got it not -- I got it from

16 the SDA service, not from Ismet himself.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. So that's it. And let me tell you that I took part in the

19 discussion. There's a point there when we wanted to incorporate something

20 into the last paragraph, and Ismet put that in. And on the basis of that

21 I can also say that the document is quite correct, because we asked Ismet

22 as a political representative to enable us to attend funerals, and that

23 has been incorporated into the document. So that tells me that it comes

24 from the office of Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic. So somebody brought it to me

25 from his office unsigned.

1 Q. Okay. All right. I think we have the complete answer on that.

2 Okay. And with that answer, sir, I want to thank you very, very much.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

4 And again, I appreciate your candour and your willingness to be

5 cross-examined. And I hope I didn't offend your feelings in any way.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, it is now 10 to 11.

8 For technical reasons we have to contact Mr. Murphy to put matters right

9 so we're going to take 30 minutes and reconvene at 11.20.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.51 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.26 a.m.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume. Can we deal

13 with the exhibit numbers, please. Yes, you may take the floor.

14 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have to apologise on behalf of

15 Mr. Karnavas. He had to leave, but I'll request that the following

16 documents be tendered: 1D 00505, 1D 00472, 1D 00427, 1D 00428, 1D 00436,

17 1D 00439, 1D 00440, 1D 00462, 1D 00438, 1D 00382, 1D 00383, 1D 00501,

18 1D 00500, 1D 00499, 1D 00466, 1D 00 -- and 1D 00488.

19 I'd like to correct an exhibit number that was tendered yesterday.

20 1D 00498 is the number. That exhibit number should be 1D 00506. Thank

21 you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I heard 506 and I see that it

23 says 5.000 -- I can see now the correct number.

24 Mr. Registrar, could we first deal with the correction of the

25 document 506, and then let's deal with the other documents.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. So as requested, the

2 previously admitted exhibit 1D 00498 is now registered as being 1D 00516

3 -- 506, I'm sorry.

4 The following exhibits are therefore tendered and admitted with

5 today's date: 1D 00505, 1D 00472, 1D 00427, 1D 00428, 1D 00436, 1D 00439,

6 1D 00440, 1D 00462, 1D 00438, 1D 00382, 1D 00383, 1D 00501, 1D 00500,

7 1D 00499, 1D 00466, 1D 00488. And this completes the list, thank you,

8 Mr. President.

9 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The last exhibit

10 should be 1D 00448.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, it's

12 448.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 8. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, what about 505? I think Mr. Karnavas

16 said he also wanted to introduce that. This is the booklet on the -- I

17 have not seen it right now, but maybe I have made a mistake.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's fine. That's fine.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I found it. I found it. I apologise.

20 MS. TOMANOVIC: Okay.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll continue. Ms. Alaburic.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

24 Q. Mr. -- Mufti Smajkic, my name is Vesna Alaburic, I'm a lawyer from

25 Zagreb and I'm representing Mr. Petkovic.

1 I first want to put some questions to you to clarify certain

2 subjects that have to do with the Muslim or Bosniak people. So let's talk

3 about this for five minutes, if we may.

4 Can you inform the Chamber and us as to when the Muslims were

5 recognised as a people in the former Yugoslavia?

6 A. In 1970.

7 Q. In the first constitutional amendments introduced in 1971, was

8 this also verified in the constitution?

9 A. Yes. In 1974 that was probably the case.

10 Q. Could you tell me with regard to the 1974 constitution in the

11 former Yugoslavia -- can we find in that constitution Muslims with a

12 capital M and muslims with a small M? Muslims with a capital M represent

13 a people, whereas muslims with a small M represents people of the Islam

14 religion.

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. As of that time, Muslims with a capital M, that is to say the

17 Muslim people, what we call the Bosniaks today, can such Muslims be

18 atheists, Christians, Buddhists or members of any other faith?

19 A. Muslims with a capital M can be whatever they want to be.

20 Q. That's right, and tell me, as of that time, muslims with a small

21 M, could such a muslim be a Muslim with a capital M but also someone who

22 is a Croat or an American, a Brazilian, or a member of any other nation?

23 A. Yes, that's possible.

24 Q. That's possible. Would you agree with me that the term "Bosnian"

25 is in fact a term that is common to Muslims with a capital M, that is to

1 say to Bosniaks, and to Serbs, Croats, and members of all other ethnic

2 groups or those who haven't declared that they are members of another

3 ethnic group but who live in the territory of Bosnia?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Would you agree with me that it's therefore logical to say that

6 Croats in Bosnia were against identifying the term "Bosnia" and "Bosnian"

7 with the term "Muslim" or "Bosniak"?

8 A. Well, yes. If -- if these terms were identified, they were said

9 to be identical, yes, you'd be right.

10 Q. Thank you. When you mentioned the Muslims in your public

11 announcements and your texts and so on, are you referring to Muslims with

12 a capital M or a small M?

13 A. Well, we should be consistent in the use of terminology since

14 misunderstandings could arise. We're referring to the religion.

15 Q. You're referring to their faith, to believers.

16 A. Yes. Especially now, since 1993, the Bosniak nationality has been

17 recognised.

18 Q. I just wanted to make sure that we were clear about the terms we

19 were using when it came to discussing other subjects.

20 In your testimony, which directly concerns my client, and in

21 relation to Prosecution Exhibit P 02587 -- could we have this on the

22 screen, please.

23 THE INTERPRETER: P 02586, interpreter's correction.

24 This is your request to Mr. Petkovic and Topic dated the 31st of

25 May, 1993, and in that request you wanted peace in order to celebrate

1 Bajram. Do you remember that?

2 A. I don't have it before me but I'm familiar with the contents.

3 Q. The witness can remember the document, so it's not necessary to

4 have it on the screen, but here we have it, so we can continue. That's

5 not the document. I have a different document P 022586 -- P 02586, but

6 since the witness knows what document is in question, we can continue.

7 With regard to that request, you said that the cease-fire wasn't

8 allowed, and your testimony as recorded in the transcript dated the 24th

9 of May, on page 134, line 19. With regard to that testimony, could we

10 show the witness the document 4D 00016. We also have a copy of that

11 document for our usher, who is very busy today. Yes, we'll have the

12 digital version on the screen in a minute.

13 Sir, could we have a look at this document. Could you tell us

14 what the contents of this document are, who issued the document, when, and

15 who was it forwarded to? Well, let's simplify this. Would you agree that

16 the request to Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Topic was sent by you on the 31st of

17 May, 1993?

18 A. Yes, I know that.

19 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that on that same day General

20 Milivoj Petkovic issued an order requesting that the cease-fire be

21 respected? And you can see that document before you now. Would you agree

22 with me that that's what this document that you have before you is about?

23 A. I didn't receive a document of any kind, and there was no

24 cease-fire. This is the first time I've seen this.

25 Q. We'll get to that. It's quite clear that you didn't receive the

1 document, and it doesn't even say that it was forwarded to you here.

2 Would you agree with me if I said that the person to whom this

3 document was addressed can be seen in the upper right part of the

4 document, where it says "To the commander," and then we have the

5 abbreviation OZ JIH, which means the operative zone of south-east

6 Herzegovina.

7 A. I can't identify or recognise anything here in the stamp.

8 Q. That's not in the stamp. It's not the stamp I'm talking about.

9 You know how these letters look. In the right-hand corner you can see the

10 person who issued the document, and then on the left you have certain

11 identifying marks, then you have the date, the contents of the document,

12 and then to the right you can see the person that the document is

13 forwarded to.

14 A. Yes, I can see that.

15 Q. It says "To the commander of the operative zone." Let's have a

16 look at the contents of the document, and would you agree that under

17 number 1 my client issued an order to all HVO units according to which

18 they should fully respect the cease-fire during the Kurban Bajram Muslim

19 holiday from the 1st of June to the 4th of June, 1993; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's what it says in the document.

21 Q. Under item 2 does it say that commanders at all levels have the

22 obligation of forwarding this order to their units?

23 A. That's what it says.

24 Q. Would you agree with me that under item 3 it says that the

25 commander of the operative zone shall contact the commander of the

1 commander of the 1st Corps, inform him of the order issue -- issued and

2 request that his units also contribute to full peace? Is that what it

3 says?

4 A. Yes, that's what it says under item 3.

5 Q. In the lower part of the document -- and could we scroll down,

6 please, in order to see the lower part of the document. And would you

7 agree with me if I said that you can now see on the screen that it says

8 that on the same day the commander of the operative zone of south-east

9 Herzegovina, Milenko Lasic, forwarded this order to his units so that they

10 could implement the order? Is that what the document says?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Thank you. You told us that no cease-fire was implemented after

13 all. So could the usher please place the following document on the ELMO:

14 The second page of document 4D 00015. This document is not available in

15 digital form because we don't yet have the translation of the transcript

16 from the session of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The session

17 concerned is the 233rd. It was held on the 29th of December, 1993, and at

18 that session there were discussions of a truce, of a cease-fire, among

19 other things, and there's a very significant statement made by General

20 Stjepan Siber too.

21 Sir, General Stjepan Siber, is this a name you're familiar with?

22 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that name.

23 Q. Can you tell us who this person is.

24 A. This person is a general of the ABiH, of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian

25 army.

1 Q. Did he have a command function, a command role in the ABiH in the

2 Main Staff?

3 A. As far as I know, yes, he did.

4 Q. I do apologise, but could we have the second page of that document

5 placed on the ELMO. 84 is the number. We're interested in the lower part

6 of the page of the session of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

7 December, 1993. Mr. Kljujic, when discussing how to implement peace and

8 put an end to the offensives said, "The only solution, Mr. Izetbegovic, is

9 for us to stop the offensive by the 18th until there are new

10 negotiations," and Stjepan Siber then answered: "Let me comment on the

11 situation, with your permission. First of all, there are objections when

12 cease-fires are signed, et cetera. We issue orders to our units.

13 However, the orders are forwarded to the battalions, companies, and almost

14 to each and every soldier, but believe me -" I'm waiting for the

15 translation - "but believe me, the battlefield is so wide that you can

16 always find someone who opens fire. I won't say on the other side, but on

17 our side too. You always come across someone, or there is always someone

18 who opens fire. In many places such as Mostar, you have a man every 30

19 metres, and there is always someone."

20 Sir, would you agree with me if I said that in order to implement

21 the decision, the agreement on having a cease-fire it's necessary for both

22 parties to demonstrate goodwill? And if the conflict continues, it's not

23 possible to accuse only one side.

24 A. That's how it should be.

25 Q. Thank you. I would now like to inform our Chamber of some of your

1 statements and to comment on those statements. There was some

2 controversial reactions to the statements you made in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

3 and I would like to refer to these statements.

4 Could we have the following document on the screen: 4D 00029.

5 Yes, we have it now.

6 This is a text from the index site, and it says in the title

7 "Anti-Semitic and anti-Christian message." So the title of the text is as

8 follows. You can see this in the fourth line of the document. It says:

9 "Mostar -- the Mostar mufti issued anti-Semitic and anti-Christian

10 messages." And then it reads as follows: "In the course of a mass for

11 the Muslim Bajram, there was a speech and there was a transcript relayed

12 by the Herzegovina newspapers, and in that speech the Mostar mufti

13 seriously accused -- made serious accusations against the Jews for what

14 was happening in Jerusalem." And then it says: "Man, have a look at

15 Jerusalem now. What's happening in Jerusalem now? Because there are Jews

16 there, and because Muslims are not managing things, are not in power. For

17 100 years, during the Crusades, Christians were in power and people were

18 up to their knees in blood -- were in blood up to their knees. It's only

19 possible for there to be peace there once Muslims are in power, because

20 other people are incapable of governing. They don't know the right

21 measure, and they are unable to act in a tolerant and cultural manner."

22 Sir, is this a statement that you made?

23 A. This is a free interpretation.

24 Q. But basically it's correct.

25 A. With your permission --

1 Q. We'll comment on this. You can comment on this later on. We'll

2 see other comments.

3 A. I'm not avoiding this, I'd just like to say that this was called

4 anti-Semitic, et cetera, yes, but this was an arbitrary qualification.

5 Q. What's important is that your words have been conveyed correctly.

6 A. Well, on the whole, yes. The essence has been conveyed correctly.

7 Q. And then the text reads as follows: You asked for a similar state

8 in Mostar. You said that the town and the Neretva would only be

9 appropriate for everyone if the Muslims were in power. And then allow me

10 to read what you said. You said: "We have been the hosts in this town

11 for 450 years. Everyone lived comfortably. Restructuring things, what

12 does this mean? It means that -- it means that of these fine hosts who

13 gave everyone a lot of liberty and who allowed everyone to express him or

14 herself how he wanted, it means that we should allow someone who was

15 setting fire to buildings the other day should have domination."

16 Mr. Smajkic, is this what you said?

17 A. Yes. Although there are certain nuances here, but yes, that's the

18 essence of what I said.

19 Q. Thank you very much. And there's another statement that you made.

20 Let's see if it's been faithfully conveyed. It has to do with you

21 objecting to the construction of Catholic religious buildings, and you

22 said, and I quote: "Can you see that accusatory cross up on the Hum hill?

23 Shall we go back to 1991? Take that from over there, but who will do

24 that? They're already preparing to construct a huge church."

25 Is this correct? Is this what you said?

1 A. Well, not a hundred per cent, but the essence is correct.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know how your statements were

3 received by the public and in general in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Are you

4 aware of the fact that the statements that you gave were used as examples

5 of speech full of hatred in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Well, that's not full of hatred.

7 Q. Well, what such speech is like is a matter we could discuss at

8 length. But could we show the document 4D 00032 to the witness. This is

9 something drafted by Mr. Dusan Babic. It's called "The Language of Hate."

10 A phenomenological and typological demonstration of speech characteristic.

11 In this territory, it was published in the Regional Bulletin for the

12 Promotion of Culture and Minority Rights and Inter-ethnic Tolerance. It

13 was published on the 15th of August, 2004. Let's show the witness page 6

14 the last paragraph, and on page 7 the first paragraph.

15 While we're waiting for the text to appear, I'll read for you a

16 part of it, and you will be able to follow. The text is as follows:

17 "Paradoxically as it may sound, the religious leaders are politically

18 more exposed than the politicians are themselves, this being the result of

19 the close conjunction between politics and religion. I need not even

20 stress how deleterious this is to any modern state, community, especially

21 if it is a multinational and multi-confessional one as the BH is."

22 Next page, please. The text goes on to read: "The Mostar mufti

23 Efendi Smajkic will remain remembered by his recent xenophobic statement

24 to the effect that only the Muslims were capable of ruling the city on the

25 Neretva, just as the Osmanlije managed to successfully rule Jerusalem for

1 centuries. Such a statement is profoundly anti-Bosnian, because it is a

2 real gift in the lap of and argument given into the hands of the

3 extremists from the ranks of the two other peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina."

4 Tell us, Mr. Smajkic, did you -- had you read this text? Did you

5 know about it?

6 A. No, I didn't know about this text, but I denied it in both

7 Croatian papers and different other papers.

8 Q. What sort of a denial?

9 A. To -- of some statements regarding my statements, in respect of my

10 statements.

11 Q. But you did say that these statements were -- faithfully reflected

12 your statements otherwise, so I can conclude that this retraction that you

13 had published referred to some other statements and not these.

14 A. No. Exactly these. There were several papers in Croatia that

15 sent me a query concerning these statements.

16 Q. Mr. Smajkic, let us just clarify. When I asked you about the

17 quotation of your statement in re of Jerusalem, you said that it was

18 faithful, and the same thing also regarding your statement in Mostar. So

19 if these statements are basically correct and truthful, then by the logic

20 of things, you -- there was nothing to deny or retract.

21 A. There was, and how.

22 Q. But obviously one usually seeks to retract things that are

23 considered to be untrue.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have two types of questions

25 and then you are asking for an interpretation. You firstly asked whether

1 he recognises the statements that he made, and that is in document -- the

2 first document, number 29. He said that, yes, he made such statements.

3 He didn't deny that. And then you showed him a document, and you

4 mentioned two sentences in the document. It's document 32 that you

5 referred to, and you asked him whether that is what he stated. He said

6 no. He denied that, because what you showed to him were things that had

7 been written by journalists. He didn't write that. And you then said,

8 well, this is what it says. So it's necessary to make a distinction.

9 It's necessary to make a distinction between what he said and what others

10 said about him. So ask him to make this distinction, because otherwise it

11 will be impossible for everyone else to follow things. I'm following

12 things, but those who are listening to us might not be able to.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] My view among us who heard these --

14 this conversation in B/C/S, there is no misunderstanding. I cannot say

15 anything about the interpretation into French, because I can't speak or

16 understand French, and I wasn't able to control the translation into

17 English well, but basically what we talked about was in regard of document

18 29, when I was quoting the quotations of the alleged statements of the

19 mufti, the question was whether these were his statements that had been

20 basically faithfully conveyed, and the response he gave in regard to all

21 the three quotations under document 29 was given in the affirmative. Let

22 me just explain so that -- these were not the statements of this author

23 but conveyed statements. I just wanted us to clarify that the journalist

24 had conveyed them correctly and that basically these were indeed the

25 mufti's statements.

1 And now we come to our topic. I should like to ask how this

2 disclaimer of yours can refer to statements that the witness himself said

3 were his and basically had been conveyed faithfully as his statements.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I give you an answer to that?

5 You said a while ago that if we wanted a joint life, co-existence, that

6 both sides to the conflict had to see to it that there should be no

7 violation of the truce as far as the war is concerned; and as regards

8 interpersonal relations, also of course they had to promote them on both

9 sides. So I gave the example of co-existence in Jerusalem, and that is

10 true. And I still assert that while the Muslims were in charge of

11 Jerusalem as a multi-confessional place, sacrosanct place of the Jews, the

12 Christians, and the Muslims, everybody had free access and could freely

13 practice their religious convictions there, and that is what I stated and

14 that is true. During the Crusades that was not possible and I said so.

15 So to make a long story short, today when both the Christians and

16 the Muslims are denied the right to get into Jerusalem and to do what is

17 enjoined upon them to do by their respective religions, they are

18 jeopardised in that sense. So that is the essence, that is the thread of

19 my argument. Co-existence in Islam is a plank of Islam. It is a religion

20 of co-existence and peace.

21 As regards the cross on the Hum in Mostar, that is not only my own

22 position. This is -- it is pointless to say -- it is senseless to say

23 that as a religious leader I am against the cross or against any place of

24 worship, but if you erect a gigantic cross on the Mount Hum, on the hill

25 of Hum above the city of Mostar, which is a multi-confessional and

1 multi-religious and multi-ethnic milieu, that is actually a message by the

2 Croatian people to say that Mostar is Croatian.

3 Q. We shall come to that during our further discussion, and let us

4 absolve this disclaimer theme in this way: Does this statement regarding

5 the disclaimer actually refer to the reactions, the comments made in

6 respect of your statements?

7 A. Yes. I had it published in the Jutarnji List, the morning paper.

8 I cannot recall it exactly now. I didn't know that you would be asking me

9 this question, but several people at the desk offices of the paper

10 actually -- actually contacted me in respect of these few pages on the

11 internet, the intention of which was to actually portray me as an

12 anti-Semitic, and they asked me for a response and I gave them my

13 interpretation in that respect and was well as in respect of Mostar. If

14 you will allow me --

15 Q. No let us follow an order and we'll come to that in due time.

16 Tell me, did you already the past few years portray yourself in

17 public as a person -- as the sole person since the time of the Washington

18 and Dayton Accords that actually advocated the protection of the places of

19 worship of Bosniaks in Mostar and the vicinity?

20 A. Yes, I did, but not only me.

21 Q. What -- did you portray yourself as the only person who advocated

22 these things?

23 A. Perhaps I hold a position that I could -- that put me in a

24 position to be able to react in that way more often.

25 Q. But did you portray yourself as the sole person?

1 A. Possibly. Possibly. When you find yourself in a position when

2 other people are silent and certain political influential factors not

3 saying anything, you have to --

4 Q. But did you portray yourself --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Will the speakers please slow down and not

6 overlap.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So did you project yourself as the only one fighting for the

9 protection of the place of worship and the human rights of Bosniaks in

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina in an open letter or, rather, a reaction which was

11 published in the papers where you said -- where you reacted, rather, to

12 the text which was called "An Open Letter to the Mostar Mufti"?

13 A. I do not have the text.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Will counsel please not overlap.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Will the witness please show document 4D 0030 in which you, at the

17 beginning of the third paragraph, say, and I quote: "After the Washington

18 and Dayton Accords, I was the only one who got up and stood up in defence

19 and protection of places of worship and overall human rights of Bosniaks

20 in Mostar and in Herzegovina."

21 Now, looking at this text of your own reaction, can you confirm

22 that this was indeed your own reaction on the dates in question?

23 A. I am concealing nothing, believe you me. The Dani, the Dani

24 paper, before this, actually published an open -- an open letter.

25 Q. Just confirm this. Is this so or not?

1 A. Yes, but they criticised the Bosniaks and the mufti, and so I

2 raised my voice against the erection of a titanic cross on the Hum.

3 Q. I am not denying that you had justification to react. I'm just

4 asking you how you portrayed yourself to the public in your reaction. If

5 you do confirm that this was indeed your reaction, we shall then move on

6 to a different topic, a topic which refers to the establishment of the

7 Muslim army.

8 Can document -- a document we've already seen in the

9 examination-in-chief stage, the number being D 00374, can it be shown to

10 the witness, please. And will you just look at it to jog your memory.

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] To use this time until this is

12 displayed on the screen, can I just say what I'm being warned of by my

13 colleagues; that it was not published. This was a reaction of the witness

14 which was published in the publication the magazine Dani.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the interpreter did not get it correctly

16 because you overlapped. Thank you.

17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So it's P 00374. This is a resolution of the Muslims of

19 Herzegovina, which you are quite familiar with, but let us look at the

20 text in order to reproduce it as faithfully as possible. Can we see item

21 V on page 2, please.

22 Tell us, Mufti, you were actively involved in the drawing of this

23 resolution; is that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Item V, paragraph 1, you, in a nutshell, call upon all able-bodied

1 Muslims to join in the defence of the homeland. Is that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I quote item II: "We call upon the defenders from the ranks of

4 the Muslims to all rally under the B and H standard and for their emblem

5 to be the coat of arms with the golden lilies."

6 Can you tell us if in item I you speak about Muslims, i.e.,

7 citizens of a Muslim -- of the Muslim nation whom you are calling upon to

8 join the army to fight for the homeland, to whom does this second part

9 refer? Who are these defenders from among the ranks of the Muslims?

10 A. Well, there were other people there were not involved. I would

11 have to think.

12 Q. Think. Perhaps I can be of some assistance. It is logical to

13 conclude that if the first paragraph refers to Muslims who are not as yet

14 fighters and upon whom you are calling to join the B and H army, it is

15 logical that paragraph II refers to someone who is already within an army

16 but is not in the BH army, and you are inviting these others to step out

17 from that other army and rally under the B and H standard. Would such a

18 conclusion on my part be correct?

19 A. Well, not perhaps fully, because -- and I shall be quite frank --

20 this is -- this was in August, 1992, as far as I remember, but it was the

21 preference of a certain state of facts, so to speak.

22 Q. Namely to have as many Muslims possible -- as possible move from

23 the HVO into the B and H army?

24 A. Under the flag of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. Okay. We'll come to that.

1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please put document

2 4D 00033 on the ELMO and -- on the ELMO, because we as yet do not have

3 integral translations of these documents, still have not put them in

4 e-court. Ms. Usher, [Previous translation continues] ... [In English]

5 documents. Last four documents.

6 Q. [No interpretation]. This is an assessment of the security

7 situation which was compiled on the 16th of April, 1993, of the -- by the

8 security chief of the 42nd Mountain Brigade of the 4th Corps, and that

9 head of security is Mario Huso. And I should like to draw your attention

10 to just one part of this assessment.

11 Does the third line from the bottom, which says that among the

12 measures which are to be undertaken, all Muslims, members of the HVO, are

13 to be called upon to put themselves on the side to align with their own

14 nation?

15 Can we then show to the witness the next document.

16 A. Excuse me. The document -- the date?

17 Q. 16th of April, 1993. 1993.

18 A. 1993.

19 Q. Yes.

20 MR. SCOTT: I apologise, Your Honour. I've been on my feet and

21 I'm not trying to interrupt but only a technical correction, I believe. I

22 was having some difficulty a few moments ago following the document, the

23 reference to Exhibit P 00374. At least how it came across in the English

24 transcript -- I don't know what counsel was saying in her language,

25 unfortunately, but at least on the English transcript, was making

1 references to Article II, and the only language that I was able to find

2 seemed to be in Article V. I'd just like the transcript to be corrected

3 to reflect that. Thank you.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Colleague Scott, would you be so

5 kind as to tell me what particular page and line are you referring to?

6 The resolution.

7 MR. SCOTT: I'm referring to the resolution of the Muslims of

8 Herzegovina, Exhibit P 00374. In Article -- you were referring -- you

9 were quoting language a moment ago, if I understood you correctly, "We

10 call on all Muslims fit for military service and rallying to the Muslim

11 cause," et cetera, and unless I missed it, the only place I see that

12 particular language was in Article V, immediately under the heading

13 Article V. I did not see that language in Article II, which was the

14 reference given in the transcript.

15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to point V of the

16 resolution of the Muslims of Herzegovina, and that was an exhibit admitted

17 under number P 00374. 000374. And it was point V. And the witness

18 referred to that point and we read it out.

19 Q. Now, we've seen the first document, which says that among the

20 measures that should be undertaken in the forthcoming period is to send

21 all Muslim -- call upon all Muslims, members of the HVO, to stand on the

22 side of their own people.

23 A. I said the 16th of April, 1993.

24 Q. Yes, that's right, the 16th of April.

25 Now I'd like to have a look at the next document, and the number

1 of that document is 34, dated the 18th of April. The author is the same.

2 Once again, it is a proposal for security measures, and it says, among

3 other things, the following -- once again, the third bullet point from the

4 stop: "To establish cooperation with our fighters in the HVO and indicate

5 the seriousness of the situation to them."

6 Now, I'd like the next document to be shown the witness, which is

7 number 35. And it is a document dated the 18th of April, 1993. It is an

8 order, and I'd like us to turn to the next page of that order.

9 As I was saying, it is an order by the commander Bajro Pizovic, in

10 which in the highlighted portion, the portion highlighted in yellow, it

11 says that the organ for moral guidance and morale, IPD and VP, will

12 compile a plan for informing the populace of the composition of the

13 brigades, the population on the territory of Mostar municipality, Capljina

14 and Stolac, and Muslim soldiers who are located in HVO units in the

15 aforementioned municipalities.

16 And now the final document for the time being on that topic, and

17 that is document number 36. It is a report by the commander of the 4th

18 Corps. Arif Pasalic is his name, and it is dated the 2nd of May, 1993.

19 May we see the lower portion of that document. We're interested in the

20 lower portion. Scroll down, please. It is highlighted in yellow once

21 again.

22 It is a report on the activities that were implemented, and I

23 quote: "Tying up with our people in the HVO."

24 May I have the next side of that same document, please, the next

25 page.

1 In the upper portion, once again highlighted in yellow, it says,

2 and I quote: "All the people from the HVO of Capljina have the task of

3 taking control of the village of Tasovcici and the Capljina bridge and not

4 allow forces to come in from the direction of Metkovic."

5 And then the other bullet point highlighted says: "To take

6 control of the town of Stolac with our men in the HVO."

7 Now, my next question to you, Mr. Smajkic, is this: We have now

8 looked at four documents related to what the BH army is doing in order to

9 tie in and link up and work in concert with the Muslims in the HVO.

10 Now, would it be right for me to conclude that those activities

11 were the result of the appeal from the resolution of the Muslims of

12 Herzegovina?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Tell us why not.

15 A. It isn't for the simple reason that I asked you what the date was,

16 and the 15th of April is the second ultimatum posed by the Croatian

17 Defence Council to the Muslims or, rather, so that the Bosniaks and BH

18 army should be resubordinated and that -- to the HVO, attached to the HVO,

19 or they will be forcefully disarmed.

20 Now, in the field incidents had already taken place, both on the

21 18th and 19th. Our commander was taken prisoner. I'm not perhaps the

22 right person and competent enough to talk about this but I would like to

23 give you this information because I was down there at that time and I know

24 that there was very high tension there at the time, and of course we

25 expected an attack, so these were measures to prevent what happened from

1 happening.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Smajkic, you're talking about an ultimatum again of the

3 15th of April, you've mentioned an ultimatum of the 15th of April, 1993,

4 once again, but you haven't provided the Prosecution, neither has the

5 Prosecution provided us, with any document whatsoever in which we would

6 see this ultimatum, which would contain this ultimatum. So I'm asking you

7 now have you ever seen a document which would include something that

8 resembles an ultimatum with the date of the 15th of April, 1993, as you

9 have been mentioning?

10 A. Well, I assume you know about the 15th of January, 1993, that

11 ultimatum. I assume you know that.

12 Q. The 15th of January? Well, I don't know whether we agree about

13 how to refer to the document. I know of a document of the 15th of

14 January, but I don't know the document you mention, an ultimatum you

15 mention of the 15th of April, 1993, so please help us out. Help the Trial

16 Chamber out and us out.

17 A. Yes, I'll be happy to do so. I'll be happy to assist the Trial

18 Chamber and you yourself. We in Mostar on the 15th of April, 1993, on the

19 day -- or, rather, 15th of April is the day the army of the Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was established. So on that day, in view of the

21 tensions of relations, the HVO had a show of might in the eastern part of

22 town, and exactly on the 15th of April it had a parade, a large-scale

23 parade with tanks and mortars and vehicles carrying --

24 Q. Mr. Smajkic, can we concentrate on the document concerning the

25 ultimatum. When you mention the date the 15th of April, is that the date

1 when this alleged document was made public?

2 A. No. It was when the expiry date was.

3 Q. But when was it published?

4 A. That's a good question. In the western part of town I had my

5 office, and in trying to save my head, save my life, all my documents

6 remained in the western part of town.

7 Q. Have you ever seen a document of that kind?

8 A. I was shown such a document. It was shown to me, but as I say, my

9 entire archive was left in the western part of town.

10 Q. Mr. Smajkic we don't have a document of that kind in this binder

11 and the Prosecutor would have been duty-bound to provide us with all the

12 documents concerned with the charges made against our clients. We don't

13 have that document. So it's very interesting to know that you can say

14 with certainty that a document of that kind existed.

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, unfortunately, I think Ms. Alaburic has

16 misstated the situation. As the president -- as Your Honour the President

17 has frequently reminded us, there are something like 9.000 documents in

18 this case. I assure the Chamber as an officer of the Court that there are

19 indeed a number of documents which reflect the existence of this ultimatum

20 but they weren't used with this particular witness because he did not have

21 -- he did not actually have one in his possession at the time, as he just

22 told us a moment ago. The fact that the Prosecution has not put any one

23 particular document out of 9.900 documents to a particular witness has no

24 particular significance unless this particular witness has nothing to say

25 about it. But counsel knows well, or she should know if she's reviewed

1 the exhibit list which she's had since January, that indeed there are

2 documents that put -- that establish this ultimatum. Thank you.

3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps just a clarification to

4 Mr. Scott.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Alaburic --

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but perhaps we're

7 talking about January.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] May I intervene, Counsel?

9 You've raised a problem. You indicated, with respect to this 15th of

10 April document, that it doesn't exist. That's what you suggested to the

11 witness. So I draw the conclusion that that document does not in fact

12 exist, whereas the Prosecutor was on his feet and said there is a document

13 on the list.

14 Now, as counsel, you must have known about the list and known

15 what's on it, on the list. So you can't say that the document doesn't

16 exist if it's on the list you've received. I don't understand your

17 position. Perhaps you'll explain yourself.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll be happy to do so. Thank

19 you.

20 My learned colleague Mr. Scott, in his last sentence when he just

21 reacted a moment ago, he confirmed the existence of a document that can be

22 considered to be an ultimatum dated January, 1993. Mr. Scott did not say

23 that there was such a document dated April, 1993. He said that documents

24 existed which refer to alleged ultimatum from 1993. I carefully looked at

25 all the documents that we were provided with, and of course there can be

1 oversights. I wouldn't go so far as to say that something did not exist

2 if we hadn't given our all to determine whether it did or didn't, and I

3 can say with certainty that there is no document that can be called an

4 ultimatum and which relates to the 15th of April, 1993.

5 Now, in view of the fact that the witness has just told us that he

6 has seen such a document, I simply wanted to clarify with him whether he

7 had actually seen the document. Perhaps he had heard about it or seen

8 newspaper articles and what this is all about.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're dealing with the 15th of

10 April. I was in the western section, I was in the office there until the

11 8th of May, which means 23 more days, 23 days after that. So if it

12 exists, it's not up to me to find it, to find the document. The documents

13 I had I handed over, those that were in my briefcase.

14 Q. It wasn't my intention to accuse you of anything. I just wanted

15 to know whether perhaps the document existed even if we didn't have it.

16 But my time is drawing to a close, and I would like to ask you just one

17 more question linked to the resolution when you yourself said that you

18 called upon people to stand under the banner or the emblem of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Can you describe to us what the coat of arms of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 looked like at that time in the spring of 1993?

22 A. Well, Bosnia-Herzegovina was an internationally recognised state.

23 Q. Yes, absolutely. What did its coat of arms look like?

24 A. It had the lily.

25 Q. And is that the coat of arms of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina

1 today or just one entity in that state?

2 A. It is a coat of arms of the state itself.

3 Q. You mean the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Well, the flag's different, but the coat of arms basically

5 remained the same with just some slight modifications.

6 Q. Are you referring to the Bosnia-Herzegovina state or are you

7 speaking about the lily emblem in the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes, the federation, the entity.

9 Q. Tell us whether the lily exists in the entity and in the coat of

10 arms of the entity of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that there is a chequerboard

11 -- as the chequerboard stands as the coat of arms of the Croats?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

14 further questions.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, Ms. Alaburic,

16 the exhibits. Would you like to tender them?

17 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I do apologise, Your Honour.

18 Just one moment, if I may. In the meantime, I seem to have mixed up my

19 papers here. Ah, here it is.

20 I'd like to have the following exhibits admitted into evidence:

21 4D 00016, 4D 00029, 4D 00030, 4D 00031, and 4D 00032. I would also like

22 the following to be marked for identification before they are tendered

23 later on: 4D 00015, 4D 00033, 4D 00034, 4D 00035, and 4D 00036.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar.

25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, thank you very much.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The following exhibits

3 are therefore tendered and admitted as full-fledged exhibits: 4D 0016,

4 4D 00029. I repeat for the record the first one: 4D 00016, yes.

5 4D 00029, 4D 00030, 4D 00031, 4D 00032.

6 The following five exhibits are marked for identification with

7 today's date as tendering date: 4D 00015, 4D 00033, 4D 00034, 4D 00035,

8 4D 00036. These are marked for identification pending translation. Thank

9 you very much.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's perfect.

11 Now, on the basis of my mathematics, we have had four counsel

12 conducting the cross-examination. We have Mr. Jonjic left and

13 Mr. Ibrisimovic. Now, as far as time is concerned, I'd like to know how

14 long each one of you intend to take.

15 Counsel Jonjic, how much time do you need?

16 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

17 consulted my colleague Mr. Ibrisimovic, and I think that by the end of

18 this session - and we have 15 to 20 minutes more of this session, of this

19 sitting; is that right? - we'd be finished during the next session. But I

20 have to add that I also spoke to Mr. Coric, and he might require several

21 minutes for a few questions to Mr. Smajkic. We're not quite certain

22 whether he'll wish to do so at this point. Would you like me to continue

23 now or are we going to take a break?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So there are two

25 possibilities. We're either going to continue straight away. In that

1 case, that will be around 1.00. Now, I'm sure Mr. Scott will have

2 additional questions to ask. Yes, he will certainly.

3 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes at the

4 most. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think the best

6 course to take would be to take a break now because it's 12.30. This will

7 give a chance for us to have a rest and reconvene at 2.00 p.m., and we'll

8 manage to finish ahead of time, I think, anyway, but anyway the meeting is

9 adjourned until 2.00 p.m.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, you may take the

13 floor.

14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

15 discussed about how to divide the remaining time among ourselves.

16 According to Defence for Mr. Pusic, Mr. Ibrisimovic won't have any

17 questions, but Mr. Coric and Mr. Praljak said that they would like about

18 15 minutes each. So I'd be grateful if the Chamber could tell me how much

19 time I have remaining at my disposal so that I can organise myself.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How much time did you plan to

21 use up?

22 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as you can see from

23 the binder that I have here, there are 30 documents that I wanted to show

24 to the witness, 30 documents I wanted to ask the witness about. I don't

25 know whether that will be possible.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have 30 documents that I

2 do not have. I apologise. They've just been provided to me. So you have

3 30 documents. Given your professional skills that you have demonstrated

4 so far, I believe you can get through them very rapidly. Please go ahead.

5 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Jonjic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Smajkic. My name is Tomislav

8 Jonjic, and I have a series of questions that I would like to put to you

9 on behalf of Mr. Coric.

10 A. Good day.

11 Q. Given your testimony over a one-and-a-half-day period when

12 examined by the Prosecution, and you've been now cross-examined for a day

13 -- just over a day by the Defence, I think you would agree that since

14 September, 1991, Mostar was in fact an occupied town.

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. In April, 1992, the JNA launched very open attacks, together with

17 other forces that had joined it.

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Mr. Smajkic, does the name Suad Cupina mean anything to you? I'll

20 repeat the name for the sake of the transcript. Yes, it's been correctly

21 transcribed. Suad Cupina, does this name mean anything?

22 A. Yes, I know the person.

23 Q. Would you agree with me that Mr. Cupina was one of the main

24 individuals responsible for the organisation of the ABiH in Mostar and he

25 was the first commander of the Mostar Independent Battalion?

1 A. Yes, that's the position he held.

2 Q. Thank you very much. You undoubtedly know that recently

3 Mr. Cupina published a book entitled "Betrayal and Defence of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina from 1991 to 1995."

5 A. Yes, I know that.

6 Q. You reviewed the book?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Your review was at least partially published in that book as part

9 of that book.

10 A. Yes, part of my review is included in the book.

11 Q. You praised the book extensively. You said it was an excellent

12 and reliable source of information for the history of the pre-war and

13 wartime events in Mostar and its surroundings.

14 A. Yes, that's what I said.

15 Q. And today, would you still praise that book? You have no

16 objections to raise with regard to the contents of the book?

17 A. I don't want to go into the details, but on the whole -- well,

18 it's the author who wrote the book, but I like the substance of the book,

19 the essence of the book.

20 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the following document:

21 5D 01113. Could the registry find this document. It's an excerpt. I

22 apologise. The first number was the correct one after all: 1113. It's

23 an excerpt from Mr. Cupina's book. We should have it on the screen. Yes,

24 there it is. Could we have a look at the following page.

25 Q. Mr. Smajkic, why am I showing you this excerpt from the book?

1 Well, because you spoke about the problems with regard to establishing the

2 HVO. Here we have a copy of pages 460 and 461 in the book, and in the

3 last paragraph Mr. Cupina describes how on the 5th of April, 1992,

4 together with the SDA leadership Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic and Zijad

5 Demirovic, they met Mate Boban in Grude and they also met Brano Kvesic

6 there. And then in the last paragraph on this page it says Mr. Cupina in

7 fact describes how they were to appoint units the purpose of which was to

8 defend Mostar. They were supposed to designate such units. And then

9 Boban issued an ultimatum. That's what Cupina says. Could we have a look

10 at the following page. He said: "Let Sarajevo decide within a week

11 whether the joint defence of Mostar will be called the Muslim-Croat

12 Defence Council or the reverse."

13 Is that correct, Mr. Smajkic? That's what it says in the book.

14 A. Yes, that's what it says. I can read that out.

15 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's correct. A few days ago, in response to

16 questions put to you by Mr. Stojic's Defence team, you informed the

17 Chamber of some HVO documents, and in the heading of those documents it

18 was not possible to see the symbol of the Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina. Isn't that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry now show us the

22 following document: 5D 1114. 1114.

23 While we are waiting for the document --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1104.

25 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

1 Q. Mr. Smajkic, in some HVO documents there were -- were no symbols

2 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you said that revealed the

3 real intentions of the Croats; is that correct?

4 A. Yes it is.

5 Q. If you have a look at this document now, you can see that the

6 heading says the Croatian Defence Council. It says the Independent

7 Battalion, the Independent Mostar Defence Battalion. It says strictly

8 confidential, we have the date the 8th of May, 1992, and if we scroll down

9 -- could we please scroll down right to the bottom of the document --

10 we'll see that the document has been signed by Mr. Cupina and that

11 Mr. Pasalic is being appointed to the position of battalion commander,

12 Mr. Arif Pasalic; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's what the document says.

14 Q. Very well. That's correct. Could we scroll up again.

15 Can we see the symbol of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina here?

16 A. Not here.

17 Q. But this is a document signed by a unit which is considered to be

18 the beginning of the ABiH in Mostar; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry please show us 5D

22 1105.

23 Q. Once again we have a document from the Independent Mostar Defence

24 Battalion. It's dated the 9th of May. Mr. Smajkic, would you agree that

25 the heading again says the HVO, the Croatian Defence Council, and yet

1 again we can't see the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. Yes, I agree with that.

3 Q. And the signatory - if we can scroll down - we'll see who signed

4 the document. The person who signed the document is Mr. Cupina once

5 again. Isn't that correct, Mr. Smajkic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the basis of this document, can we draw the conclusion that

8 Mr. Cupina and the Independent Mostar Defence Battalion deny the statehood

9 or the existence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. This document shows that there was a form of joint coordination

11 and that the Independent Battalion accepted HVO leadership in order to

12 defend themselves and liberate themselves from the JNA.

13 Q. Yes, but my question is given the fact that the symbol of the

14 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina has been omitted, is it possible to draw

15 any conclusions as to the position of the person who drafted the document

16 with regard to the existence of that state?

17 A. No, we can't draw any conclusions from this document on that

18 basis.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry now show us the

21 following document: 5D 01106. So 1106 is the number of the document. So

22 far we have seen documents signed by Mr. Suad Cupina, documents that don't

23 bear the symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 Could the registry now show us the signatory. Could we scroll

25 down to the bottom of the document now, please. Unfortunately, this

1 scanned digital version doesn't reveal the identity of the person who

2 signed the document but the original does. We could place the original on

3 the ELMO, and I'd like to do so with the assistance of the usher. We'll

4 thus be able to see who the signatory of the document is.

5 Q. Mr. Smajkic, we can see that the signatory is Mr. Arif Pasalic.

6 Isn't that correct?

7 A. That's what it says.

8 Q. That's correct. Mr. Pasalic replaced Mr. Cupina at the head of

9 the Independent Battalion and then in the autumn of 1992 he became the

10 commander of the 4th Corps of the ABiH; isn't that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. If we return to the digital version of this document - I assume it

13 will be simpler to proceed in this way - then at the top of the document

14 we'll see that the date is the 15th of May, 1992, and we'll also see that

15 the document doesn't bear the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Isn't that

16 correct, Mr. Smajkic?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. So Mr. Pasalic also signed documents the heading of which didn't

19 contain the symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20 Since we're discussing this document, if we have a look at the

21 middle of the document we'll see that it mentions the strength of the

22 battalion. Mr. Smajkic, would we agree that this is immediately prior to

23 the liberation of the town of Mostar?

24 A. Yes, about a month prior to its liberation.

25 Q. That's correct. Could we scroll a little further down, please.

1 Can you tell us what the total strength of the Independent Battalion was?

2 569. Isn't that right?

3 A. Yes. That's what it says in this document.

4 Q. Do you see the number 569? Can you tell us, in the town of Mostar

5 and the surroundings, how many Muslim military conscripts were there, in

6 your assessment, and how many refugees were there from Eastern

7 Herzegovina?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Last week in the course of your testimony you said that according

10 to the documents of the Cultural Circle of Muslims in Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, there were 17.000 mainly Muslim men.

12 A. Yes. That's the number, 17.000, but there were men from other

13 areas and they weren't only Muslims.

14 Q. But given that in your assessment, does this number 569 represent

15 a significant military force? You have certain military skills as well, I

16 know that.

17 A. No, it's not a significant number.

18 Q. Very well.

19 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry please show us

20 5D 0107 -- 1107 and 1108. Those are the documents we'd like to see on the

21 screen. Again, we're interested in the heading of these documents and

22 we'd like to see whether Bosnia-Herzegovina is referred to in the

23 documents that are of, let's say, Muslim origin or, rather, they're

24 documents that were drafted in the Independent Defence Battalion. So the

25 number of the document I was referring to is 1107. No. Something's not

1 quite right. 1107. It's a document dated the 2nd of June. 1107. We

2 have it on the screen now.

3 Q. Mr. Smajkic, yet again we have before us a document that doesn't

4 bear the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's dated the 2nd of June, and

5 it's been signed by Mr. Pasalic. Mr. Pasalic contacted the Municipal

6 Staff of the HVO in Mostar. He is asking for weapons, ammunition, et

7 cetera, isn't that correct, and it didn't bear the symbol of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina?

9 A. That's correct. You keep emphasising this fact. This is a

10 compromise. It was important to liberate the town, and we believed that

11 this issue would be solved at a later date.

12 Q. Please don't try to interpret these things, just try to answer the

13 questions since we don't have much time.

14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] And could we now have a look at the

15 document number 5D 01108. 1108. Could the registry please put the

16 document on the screen.

17 Q. This is a handwritten document, and again here do you agree with

18 me, Mr. Smajkic, it doesn't bear the symbol of the B and H?

19 A. No, it doesn't.

20 Q. And if you can see the Croatian version, it is signed -- or the

21 Bosnian version, if you will. We have the English translation now on our

22 screens. So this document was signed by, of course, if -- we'll see that

23 if you scroll up a bit. So it is Hasan Breko, the commander of the 1st

24 Company of the Independent Battalion, and the date is the 12th of July,

25 1992. Do you know Mr. Breko?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you agree with me that the 12th of July is almost a month after

3 the liberation of Mostar?

4 A. Not exactly. Thereabouts, more or less.

5 Q. Okay, yes, thank you very much. And after the liberation of

6 Mostar, the documents of the Independent Battalion still fail to bear the

7 symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Right.

8 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] And talking about symbols and

9 emblems, will the registrar please show us document 5D 010 -- sorry,

10 5D 01109.

11 Q. While we are waiting for this document to be displayed, I shall

12 tell you, Mr. Smajkic, that this is an order from 1992. We don't know the

13 exact date because it is not there, issued by the military police of

14 Travnik. And if we can see the document, then we can perhaps deal with

15 it. Here it is.

16 So this is the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

17 it says the Muslim forces of Travnik; right, Mr. Smajkic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. 1992. We see the signatory and with some sort of a stamp. Tell

20 me, is this stamp -- you discussed this -- the stamp used also with my

21 Colleague Nozica that was used or not used. Tell me, this stamp that we

22 see on this document, is it in any way whatsoever connected with Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

24 A. No, it is not.

25 Q. You spoke Arabic, of course. Can you translate for our benefit

1 what the stamp says, the top part of it?

2 A. It says, "Allah is the only god and Muhammed is his messenger."

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Will the registrar show us document

5 5D 0110. If it is -- if there are difficulties, we can see it on the

6 ELMO. 5D 01110.

7 Well, if we can't do it, perhaps we can show it on the ELMO.

8 Well, here it is.

9 Q. Mr. Smajkic, as you can see on the top, the 8th of May is written

10 by hand, and this is a list of members of the HVO Independent Defence

11 Battalion, battalion for the defence of Mostar, who have been issued with

12 an automatic rifle. I presume that you know some of these people on this

13 list. Tell me, under number 9, do you see the name Zijo Demirovic, Sosi?

14 A. Yes, it is there.

15 Q. He was among the leaders of the SDA in Mostar, was he not?

16 A. Yes, he was.

17 Q. So one cannot conclude on that basis that he was also a soldier.

18 Not only was he formally a military conscript but he was indeed a soldier

19 because he had been issued with a rifle.

20 A. I know that he was not a soldier because he did not go to the

21 positions. I know him personally.

22 Q. But you see him on this list.

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And you see his nickname, Sos. So it couldn't be a person bearing

25 the very same name and surname. I mean, this -- that distinction would be

1 obvious, given his nickname.

2 A. You are right.

3 Q. Will the registrar please scroll the document up so we can see the

4 end of the document. All the way up. Yes, thank you.

5 Under number 25, Mr. Smajkic, we have Arif Pasalic. First the

6 command -- deputy commander and later the -- of the -- that is of the

7 Independent Battalion, and later the commander of the 4th Corps; right?

8 A. Well, that name is there.

9 Q. And can you read just the first line of this remark, of this note

10 down here. If it is difficult for you, I will assist you. So it says,

11 "The automatic rifles have been received from the Main Staff of the HVO."

12 Is that what it says?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. So we see for that this group of the members of the Independent

15 Battalion as well among whom there also are prominent political and

16 military officials from among the ranks of the Muslim nation, they have

17 been issued their weapons by the HVO; right?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Thank you. Will the registry please show us document 5D 01111.

20 So it's four 1s in a row.

21 And while we wait for that document, Mr. Smajkic, I will ask you

22 to confirm for me that a couple of days ago you referred to the fact that

23 the Muslims were systematically pushed out of posts in the social and

24 public life, political life in Mostar. Today we saw -- in some of the

25 exhibits presented by the Defence of Mr. Prlic some different thesis being

1 advanced. Tell me, in 1991, 1992, and 1993, especially were Muslims

2 indeed suppressed from such positions in social and political life?

3 A. Indeed they were.

4 Q. Thank you. We now again see the book of Suad Cupina that you

5 revised [as interpreted], that you lavished praises on. Will the

6 registrar please show us the following page. So this is a reproduction

7 from the book of Mr. Cupina. It is a list of directors and principals of

8 elementary and secondary schools.

9 Mr. Smajkic, would you be so kind as to take a quick look at this

10 list of names.

11 A. Yes, I have done that.

12 Q. Can the registrar please scroll the document down. Can you take a

13 look at these names as well.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can we have next -- the next page, page 229 from the book, or the

16 next page in this document. These are directors of cultural institutions,

17 et cetera. I should like to kindly ask you, Mr. Smajkic, again to take a

18 look at this list.

19 A. I have done that.

20 Q. Can you find the name of a single newly appointed director who is

21 not a Muslim, a single one?

22 A. There is an explanation for this, sir.

23 Q. I'm not asking you for any explanations. You have seen 30 or 40

24 names of newly appointed directors. I'm just asking you whether a single

25 one of them is not Muslim. Or I can rephrase the question: Of those who

1 have been replaced and removed from their positions, is there a single one

2 who is not a Croat or a Serb?

3 A. I know this situation very well. This is a period in which

4 Croatian children did not even go to school in Mostar but went to Zapana,

5 Herzegovina.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You really ought to answer the questions and not

7 engage upon widespread explanations, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but the

11 impression gained will be a mistaken one, because all the directors are

12 Muslims but it is fact that no Muslim children were in Mostar -- no Croat

13 children were in Mostar at that time.

14 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In 1991 and 1992, was anyone appointed without being a Croat [as

16 interpreted], a council sit?

17 A. This was a situation at that period.

18 Q. And all the appointments were of Muslims, right?

19 A. Well, I believe Cupina, that he found these facts in some

20 references, in some sources that he referred to. So that's that.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Will the registrar show us 5D 01091.

22 Mr. Smajkic, while we are waiting for this document, you will

23 recall these events. This is a document from the 19th of April, 1992, and

24 if the registrar would scroll it down, this is an order by General

25 Perisic. We have seen it here and in other courtrooms as well about the

1 artillery attack, an artillery attack on parts of the city. Do we agree,

2 Mr. Smajkic, that Cim, Ilici, Bijeli Brijeg, and Donja Mahala, parts of

3 the city of Mostar, are not military targets but civilian targets?

4 A. Yes, these are sections of the city.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Will the registrar please scroll the

6 document up. We want to see the heading.

7 Mr. Smajkic, this was 10 -- 10 days prior to the transference of

8 powers for the defence to the HVO. So at this moment, the actual power in

9 the city was vested in the Crisis Staff.

10 A. Yes, still.

11 Q. Thank you very much. 5D 01112 is the next document that we would

12 kindly ask the registrar to show us.

13 This is -- and can we see the next page immediately. Again, an

14 excerpt from the book that you revised [as interpreted], that is the book

15 of Mr. Cupina. And if we take a look at the first and second paragraphs,

16 you will see, Mr. Smajkic, that there was a quite pronounced

17 dissatisfaction with the activities of the civilian authorities; i.e., the

18 activities of the Crisis Staff. And then in the third paragraph, which

19 starts in this way: "Precisely on account of such inadequate activity,

20 the --" and so on and so forth -- "the activists of the Patriotic League

21 had to set up their own Crisis Staff." Is this what it says, Mr. Smajkic?

22 A. That is what it says.

23 Q. So in addition to the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of

24 Mostar, which was its official designation, there obviously also existed a

25 Crisis Staff of the Patriotic League; right?

1 A. Not that I was aware of.

2 Q. Because the people who were members of that Crisis Staff are

3 indicated here, I have no doubt that you know all these people.

4 A. I can conclude on the basis of these names that this was not a

5 political body but people who were actually preparing themselves for the

6 defence.

7 Q. I'm not suggesting anything otherwise. I just want us to agree

8 and for you to confirm, if you can, that the Patriotic League in Mostar

9 formed a separate Crisis Staff.

10 At the bottom of this same page - and will the registrar please

11 scroll the page down - we can see a reference being made to the fact that

12 already on the 10th of February, 1991, in Bihac the president of the

13 Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija

14 Izetbegovic, proclaimed the existence of the Patriotic League for B and H.

15 Obviously this Patriotic League in Mostar was a component part of this

16 Patriotic League for the B and H which Alija Izetbegovic proclaimed as

17 existing on the 10th of February, 1991.

18 A. I cannot comment that.

19 Q. Okay. Do you know what the programme of the Patriotic League was?

20 What did it advocate?

21 A. I did not have its programme at that time, and I was not that much

22 involved in this subject matter, the subject matter of defence, in this

23 initial stage, that is.

24 Q. But do you know in view of the numerous articles and books that

25 were published on this subject, including this one which you revised [as

1 interpreted], what the programme of the Patriotic League was? Was it set

2 up to defend all the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina or just to defend the

3 Muslim people?

4 A. If the authorship actually hails from the idea of Alija

5 Izetbegovic, it could by no means be just for the protection of the Muslim

6 people.

7 Q. You are convinced of that?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. In the examination-in-chief a few days ago, you commented on this

10 and reverted to the subject today, namely developments in respect of Boban

11 -- the Boban-Karadzic meeting in Graz. Did you or did you not discuss

12 that already?

13 A. At that time, I did not even know nor had read about it, but I

14 said how it had been, and I stand behind that.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell me, in 1991 -- in mid-1991, did you have any

16 information, did you know anything about the secret Muslim-Serbian

17 negotiations and talks?

18 A. You're asking me too much. You're asking -- that is a tall order.

19 This is a feel that is alien to me. I have no idea.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you know that after they had been busted, so to

21 speak -- I mean after they found out that these talks had indeed taken

22 place -- did the papers throughout the then former Yugoslavia extensively

23 write about that and that the memoirs of these developments were written

24 by the participants of at least from the Muslim side, which is Muhamed

25 Filipovic, Zulfikarpasic and Alija Izetbegovic?

1 A. I was informed about it in a way, but I had no direct insight into

2 the happenings.

3 Q. But did you -- you do know that there was some secret Muslim-Serb

4 negotiations held in mid-1992?

5 A. As far as I could see from the papers, such talks were indeed

6 conducted in order for the former Yugoslavia to part, the nations of the

7 former Yugoslavia to part in a peaceful way.

8 Q. I'm not asking you that. I'm just asking you whether you know

9 about it or not, knew about it.

10 A. Well, I could read about it in the papers. I don't know about the

11 actual substance.

12 Q. All right. We have already referred to the 29th of April, 1992,

13 namely, the moment when the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of

14 Mostar transferred the powers for the defence to the Croatian Defence

15 Council.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Will the registrar please show us document 5D 01093.

18 And whilst we are waiting Mr. Smajkic, yesterday one of the

19 members of that Crisis Staff was with us here yesterday, and he told us

20 that all the activities of the staff ended on the 15th of May, 1992, and

21 under a decision of the HVO Mostar, that Crisis Staff was disbanded on

22 that date. I would like show you in that connection a document which on

23 precisely that date that refers to precisely that Crisis Staff of the

24 Municipal Assembly. We did not manage to decipher the signatory's name

25 but it impresses the commander of the 1st Mostar Battalion and refers to

1 the coordination of the quartermaster service and the needs to inform the

2 Crisis Staff of the TO of that.

3 So Mr. Smajkic, a while ago we saw that the Patriotic League,

4 according to Mr. Cupina, that is, had set up a separate Crisis Staff in

5 Mostar distinct from this Municipal Assembly of Mostar Crisis Staff. Now

6 we see here the Crisis Staff of the TO. As you were part of the

7 developments and the organisation there then -- in fact, a few days ago

8 you said that you lobbied with Mr. Izetbegovic for the replacement of

9 Mr. Hadziosmanovic, and that you personally informed via Radio Mostar

10 about his replacement, do you perhaps know what Crisis Staff of the TO

11 this was?

12 A. No, I don't know.

13 Q. Thank you. When answering Mr. Scott's questions, you mentioned

14 how Mr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic was elected, Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic, he was

15 elected as the leader of the SDA in Mostar or, rather, as president of the

16 regional SDA in Herzegovina. And on that occasion you said that the main

17 argument in his favour was that his brother Mustafa was a member of the

18 Young Muslims. Page 73 and 74 of the unofficial version of the

19 transcript. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes. I still believe that that's how it worked. That's my

21 assessment. You asked me about it, that was my conclusion.

22 Q. That's correct. You certainly know and you can certainly answer

23 my question as to whether Alija Izetbegovic was a member of the Young

24 Muslims.

25 A. Yes, he was.

1 Q. Would you agree with me that Dr. Ismet Hadziosmanovic is not the

2 only person whose political career prospered because he was a member of

3 the Young Muslims. You probably know something about the SDA and its

4 establishment and I therefore assume you would agree that one of the

5 founders of the SDA -- or, rather, that members of the Young Muslims were

6 some of the most prominent founders. For the sake of the transcript, it

7 was Teufik Velagic, Omer Behmen, Alija Izetbegovic. I'll repeat the

8 names: Teufik Velagic, Omer Behmen, et cetera. Were they at the very top

9 of the SDA from the very beginning?

10 A. Yes, I believe so.

11 Q. Later they were promoted to positions at the state level. Omer

12 Behmen became the BH ambassador in Iran; isn't that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Mr. Mohamed Sacirbegovic was the person who was promoted to

15 the highest ranking position. He was the ambassador of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina at the United Nations in New York, and later he was the

17 minister of foreign affairs. Isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I can see that you know what I'm going to ask you about. His

20 father Nedzib was also a member of the Young Muslims.

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. So we can see that Mr. Izetbegovic pursued policies that attached

23 significant importance to whether or not someone had been a member of the

24 Young Muslims. What kind of an organisation were the Young Muslims?

25 That's an important question. I have Sef Turhoj's [phoen] book on the

1 Young Muslims, or entitled "The Young Muslims." Have you read it?

2 A. No, I haven't.

3 Q. It's a collection of documents produced by that movement, and it

4 was also based on some conversations with surviving witnesses. The only

5 original part of the book is the introduction.

6 Could the registrar please show us 5D 01082. Could this document

7 please be put on the screen.

8 While we're waiting for it to appear on the screen, Mr. Smajkic,

9 this document concerns a conversation with Alija Izetbegovic, and this

10 conversation was published in the book. Could we have a look at the next

11 page, please.

12 We can see the young Mr. Izetbegovic here, and let's have a look

13 the next page, please. Mr. Izetbegovic says how the organisation was

14 founded, and he explains its objectives, and then from the middle onwards

15 he says: "I remember that one of the items mentioned the unity of the

16 Muslims throughout the world. I think that was item 4. And item 5 read

17 as follows: 'The practical achievement of Islam.' And there was a

18 secretive formula there. There was no comment. It says we always

19 interpreted this as being tantamount to the creation of a very large

20 Muslim state. For us, that is what this item in fact meant whereas all

21 the other items also had an explanation accompanying the principle, or a

22 lengthy or brief explanation, whereas all that was stated here is the

23 practical information of Islam, and then there is no comment."

24 Can we have a look at the next page, please.

25 At the top the author of the book asks Mr. Izetbegovic, Did this,

1 among other things, mean that there was a request for certain discipline,

2 subordination? He answered yes. I also interpreted item 5 in this way.

3 "We didn't comment this item because we believed that it was a certain

4 conspiratorial item, a secret. It represented something that should not

5 be said at that time. I always interpreted this item as a request for a

6 sort of political implementation of Islam." Is that what it says in this

7 book, Mr. Smajkic? And it was published, as we could see on page 1, in

8 1992, when Mr. Izetbegovic was politically extremely powerful. Is that

9 what it says here?

10 A. Yes, it does.

11 Q. Could the registry show us 5D 01083. This document is from the

12 same book.

13 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

15 MR. SCOTT: I've been quiet this afternoon but I'm just wondering

16 how much this assists us. All we're doing now is reading excerpts of

17 material and then the question to the witness is just -- look at line 23

18 of page 96: "Does the page that I've just shown you say that?" And the

19 witness says, "That's what it says." Now, how much does it really assist

20 the Chamber to simply go through a series of documents and ask the witness

21 if that's what it says?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but as a general rule,

23 Mr. Jonjic concludes such a series of questions by putting a question of a

24 general nature to the witness, a question of a general nature that -- that

25 resumes or synthesises all the other questions, and this then helps the

1 Chamber. But as you have said, at the moment we can't see what the

2 purpose of these questions is but we are anticipating or we are waiting

3 for the question that will clarify everything.

4 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. What is at

5 stake here is the ideological background of the president -- of the

6 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this is one of the elements of

7 his staff policies, and I think that Mr. Smajkic is in a good position to

8 explain to us whether these statements are in accordance with Islam.

9 Could we have a look at the document 5D 01083, and very briefly we

10 will have a look at this.

11 Q. It's an oath of -- taken by members of the Young Muslims. This is

12 an organisation that Mr. Izetbegovic belonged to, and he recruited his

13 most reliable staff members from this organisation.

14 Mr. Smajkic, if you can just read through it very quickly. Have a

15 look at this oath which mentions unconditional sacrifice for Islam, for

16 the greatness of Islam and for the benefits of all the Muslims throughout

17 the world.

18 Mr. Smajkic, would you agree that there's nothing specifically

19 Bosnian here? Such an oath could have been taken in, for example, Saudi

20 Arabia, Iran, Indonesia; in any country inhabited by Muslims?

21 A. I've never seen this before, believe me.

22 Q. But is there anything that is specifically Bosnian in this

23 document?

24 A. As far as I can see, this represents the religious enthusiasm of

25 people who were very young at the time and who dreamt of being free to

1 practice their own religion. It doesn't really have anything to do with

2 statehood.

3 Q. Could we have a look at the following document, 5D 01084. And

4 this document is part of the testimony of a member of the Young Muslims,

5 and it says that in a multi-ethnic and multi-confessional area, such as

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina, according to the ideas of this group, it mentions

7 how the problems of Croats and Serbs could be dealt with.

8 Could we have a look at the following page, please, and this is

9 the last excerpt that we will be looking at from this book. If we have a

10 look at the middle of the document. Scroll down a little more. That's

11 fine.

12 In response to a question put by the Chamber with regard to the

13 purposes of the organisation, and in order to save time, I'll summarise

14 what it says. A member of the organisation responded that at an

15 appropriate point in time they wanted to establish an independent Bosnia

16 that would become part of an Islam state, and all the parts of Yugoslavia

17 inhabited by Muslims would be part of that state, they would take power

18 into their own hands. What would they do with the Serbs and the Croats?

19 We'd be tolerant with regard to Serbs and Croats. And how would Turks,

20 Serbs, and Bulgarians join this state? The answer was, We would move them

21 out or solve the problem in some other way.

22 Mr. Smajkic, I am not asking you to confirm such a position but

23 all I want to know is whether you can confirm that a member of this

24 organisation actually said this.

25 A. Well, that's what we can read in the document.

1 Q. Thank you very much. Let's now go back to the purpose of the

2 exercise. We're trying to demonstrate the reasons that Izetbegovic had

3 when pursuing party policies and state policies in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Can we have a look at another excerpt from another book. 5D 01081

5 is the number of that document.

6 While waiting for it to appear on the screen, Mr. Smajkic, your

7 name is Enver -- you're certainly familiar with the name Enver Redzic.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. He is an academic, a member of the Academy of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 and certainly one of the most prominent Muslim intellectuals, certainly

11 one of the most prominent historians; would you agree with me?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. So this is a book of his, entitled "A Hundred Years of Muslim

14 Policies," in which he comments on the Islamic Declaration. Could we have

15 a look at the next page, please. The Islamic Declaration, Mr. Smajkic,

16 you will agree with me, I think, the Islamic Declaration is one of

17 Mr. Izetbegovic's most important texts, and he was put on trial in

18 Sarajevo for this text in '83.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. He never rejected his positions in the Islamic Declaration; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Well, I don't know about that.

23 Q. Have you read that book of his?

24 A. Yes, I have.

25 Q. I apologise. I'm waiting for the interpretation. If you have

1 read that book, then you're able to see how Mr. Redzic analysed the book.

2 He was a regular member of the Academy of Arts and Science in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and he is a Muslim; isn't that correct? Given that

4 this is an article about 40 pages long, I've only selected certain parts

5 of the text. We don't have time to go through everything. I think we can

6 have a look at the next page, though. And the next one. That's the one.

7 Have a look at the middle part of the document, in which analysis is made

8 of the Islamic Declaration and the Redzic says that any discussion of the

9 national issue of Bosnian Muslims is not included in the declaration. It

10 -- when analysed, this declaration doesn't touch on the name of the

11 Muslims, although there were a lot of discussions of that during that

12 period. The declaration completely neglects the question of national

13 identity.

14 Could we have a look at the next page, please.

15 In the middle, the last sentence in the middle of this paragraph,

16 the one that hasn't been crossed out, it says that Izetbegovic's thesis is

17 that the Muslim doesn't exist as an entity, not as an individual, but as a

18 collective entity.

19 Then let's have a look at the last page, please. At the very

20 bottom. I'll read it through to save time. "To be ideologically

21 unilateral means to be intolerant. The protagonists of Islam are not

22 immune to this. The position that Islam is not just a religion and that

23 means an ideology is a position that Izetbegovic emphasises with the

24 conclusion on Islam and non-Islamic systems not being reconcilable."

25 And then there's another quotation from Mr. Izetbegovic's

1 declaration: "There is no peace or co-existence between the Islam faith

2 and non-Islamic social and political institutions. Islam excludes the

3 possibility and the right of any kind of ideology being operational in its

4 territory."

5 Mr. Smajkic, could you briefly comment on these positions of one

6 of the most prominent Islam scientists or academics.

7 A. Your Honour -- Your Honours, I can comment on this very

8 superficially right now, but I would simply like to inform you that

9 Mr. Izetbegovic was a thinker and that he thought through philosophical

10 questions, historical questions, questions that concerned the history of

11 civilisations.

12 Q. In order to come to such conclusions?

13 A. Well, no, but he couldn't discuss certain issues because each of

14 these articles in the system that existed at the time was written under a

15 pseudonym. So he couldn't have dealt with issues that concerned

16 nationality or relationships.

17 Q. Thank you. We saw a while ago an illustration of the activity of

18 Izetbegovic's authentic organisation, the original organisation, the Young

19 Muslims, and now we saw his Islamic Declaration. There is a continuity

20 between the two, don't you agree?

21 A. I'd refrain from commenting on that. You have said quite a lot to

22 me, and I would have to give it some thought.

23 Q. Thank you very much. But you did say that the Islamic Declaration

24 of Alija Izetbegovic was a consequence of his thinking endeavours. So I

25 would like to say that in thinking Islam through in this way, which Enver

1 Redzic designates as being intolerant, exclusive, and totalitarian, that

2 he did not just stick to the doctrine, the theoretical level, but as you

3 can see and as yourself confirmed in actually appointing the -- his key

4 associates, he bore in mind the fact that they should actually hail from

5 the same ideological milieus. Is that so?

6 A. Yes, that can be accepted.

7 Q. I shall ask you just a couple of questions so that I leave enough

8 time for Mr. Coric and for General Praljak.

9 Will the registrar show us 5D 01069, please. That document, of

10 course.

11 While we're waiting for the document, Mr. Smajkic, your calling is

12 primarily of a spiritual nature, so it would be only logical for you to

13 predominantly not dedicate yourself to lay matters, specifically not to

14 defence; right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. This document that we see in front us is a document sent by the

17 police administration of Mostar to different HVO bodies -- no, rather to

18 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, I apologise, and attached to it is

19 a record or minutes of meeting. Let us take a short look at the first

20 page and then take a longer look at the second page, please.

21 The heading says the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- no, no, no.

22 The next page, please. Can we have the next page, please.

23 So this document says at the top of the page Independent Unit

24 Muslim forces of Mostar. It refers to some persons that you also yourself

25 referred to during the examination-in-chief. If I remember correctly, you

1 did mention Mr. Custovic. However, on the second page -- will the

2 registrar please show us the next-to-last page of this document, please.

3 So I shall read again to save time: "Attached to this letter is

4 also a list of personnel, members of the unit of the Muslim forces of

5 Mostar on the 21st of November, 1992. By their signatures, the commission

6 guarantees that the situation as indicated is correct and full moral and

7 material responsibility. Any things that might remain unclear shall be

8 explained by the stated commission together, I, with the presence of the

9 Mostar mufti, at the joint meeting with representatives of the Islamic

10 centre at the headquarters of the Muslim forces in Zenica, with the

11 supreme Emir of the Muslim forces and other members of the Sure at the

12 helm." Is this what it says, Mr. Smajkic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember these developments, this meeting in Zenica and the

15 compiling of this list? So this is the end of November 1992.

16 A. It states that it is in Zenica.

17 Q. Yes, but with the presence of the Mostar mufti.

18 A. But where? Where does it say with the presence of the Mostar

19 mufti?

20 Q. All -- "Anything unclear will be clarified by the mentioned

21 commission together with the presence of the Mostar mufti, at a joint

22 meeting, it shall be explained --"

23 A. It shall be explained.

24 Q. Yes, yes. But did you participate in that? This is just a

25 compilation of a list of members. Nothing is problematic there.

1 A. Of course I cannot retain everything in memory, but when you

2 referred to this person indicated here, this was some sort of an

3 agreement. A person was sent, a person whose name is Ibrahim Mimic, and

4 possibly appeared in the capacity of Emir. This is what I can remember.

5 Q. But you did participate in this compilation of the list and you

6 coordinated matters with this Muslim centre in Zenica. Did you or did you

7 not? I would not like to dwell too much on this.

8 A. I'm not avoiding anything, it's just that I need to recall some

9 things. I did participate in parts of this activity because I -- we were

10 supposed to coordinate matters along some coordination lines because these

11 are people from Mostar.

12 Q. Yes, but the headquarters of the Muslim forces was in Zenica.

13 A. Yes. They thought themselves to be that, but as you can see,

14 these are -- we have documents with such-and-such signatories and these or

15 those units, but this was not coordinated in a way that you could say that

16 they were thus organised in the command sense.

17 Q. Okay. But confirm this for me: The "Instructions for the Muslim

18 Fighter" were also published and printed in Zenica; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we just see another two documents? I would like to ask the

21 registrar -- I hope that I shall have enough time. 5D 01115, 1115 is the

22 first one, please.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to go back to the

24 preceding document, document number 69. On the -- in the list of weapons

25 -- can we see the document? Can we have a look at the document on the

1 screen? In English it's entitled "Record."

2 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] 01069. That is the covering letter.

3 Then the next page.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The next page. There it is.

5 Sir, could you have a look at the last line. There's something

6 missing.

7 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right, Your Honour.

8 There is something missing in the electronic version which does appear in

9 the -- in the hard copy.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We could place it on the ELMO,

11 perhaps. Digital versions aren't perfect. Far from it. We will have a

12 look at the document on the ELMO now.

13 Have a look at the last line. Could you read out the last line,

14 Witness. What does it say? [No interpretation].

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here 1 piece of automatic

16 rifle issued to the Mostar mufti.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How do you explain the fact that

18 a member of the clergy receives a weapon or can receive a weapon?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, simply speaking, I never used

20 anything of the kind, but I was indeed once issued with one. It was a

21 state of war. And you could see that all the political representatives

22 all had been issued with similar items.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I was wondering

24 about. You were at war, but what about the other members of the clergy in

25 Mostar? The Catholic bishop, for example, or the Orthodox priest? Were

1 they also issued with weapons? Did they have weapons too? Why did you

2 have a weapon and the others did not? How would you explain the fact that

3 you personally had a weapon?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I explained this by the fact

5 that it was war and that every person had to be armed whether they used

6 the weapons or not, whether they were in units or not. I had it at home.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But is it normal in your

8 religion that members of the clergy have arms, have weapons in their

9 possession? Is this provided for in the Koran?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, one had to exercise caution.

11 It is not provided for in the Koran, but as in moving about we were

12 exposed to the danger of being attacked, and as we were responsible

13 people, we had to take care of our own protection on our own initiative,

14 because we had no guards and there was no one else there to defend us.

15 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I meant to

16 leave this for the end, but while we are at the subject, I will continue

17 to pursue this line that you have initiated, but I will ask this in the

18 form of a question.

19 Q. Mr. Smajkic, did you use -- do you use for personal protection a

20 pistol or an automatic rifle?

21 A. I don't know. I never used either. It was there and could be

22 had, and I had it at my disposal, but I never used it.

23 Q. I shall refrain from asking Mr. Smajkic some other things which I

24 had meant to ask him. I shall just show him a document which I believe

25 complements what Colleague Alaburic talked about today.

1 Can we see 5D 01115. 1115. This is a document which describes

2 the situation in Mostar on the 28th of May, 1993.

3 Do you agree, Mr. Smajkic, that this is a document of the 3rd

4 Brigade of the HVO of the 28th of May, and that that was 19 days after the

5 outbreak or, rather, the escalation of the conflict between the Muslim and

6 the Croat forces in Mostar?

7 A. That is the 28th of May.

8 Q. That's right. Thank you. Will the registrar please scroll the

9 document up so that we can see the content.

10 The commander of the 3rd Brigade commands that an analysis be

11 undertaken of the attitude and conduct of members of the Muslim nation who

12 found themselves in the units, and then he goes on to ask how many Muslims

13 crossed over to the side of the army of BH with weapons or without

14 weapons, how many Muslims had left their units and how many remained in

15 the units. And then it goes on to -- can we scroll the document a

16 bit further up, please. He then enjoins upon the information and

17 propaganda service, the IPD, information and propaganda activity service

18 in the HVO, to make the work more efficient, to intensify the work in

19 order to unmask the intentions of the extreme sections of the army of BH

20 and the part of the Muslim leadership and people. It also stresses the

21 necessity of further co-existence in the field, in the terrain in which

22 the unit is, and the necessity to render operational the organs of

23 authority on the basis of the UN plan. And the last item is to retain

24 members of the Muslim nationality in the units, namely those who are not

25 -- namely those who are not extremists and only promote a joint struggle

1 against a joint enemy.

2 Is this what it says, Mr. Smajkic?

3 A. Yes, it is. That is what it says in this document.

4 Q. So some 20 days after the outbreak of the conflict, the brigade of

5 the HVO headquartered in Mostar speaks about the necessity of further

6 joint life, joint cooperation, joint fighting against the common enemy;

7 right?

8 A. This is what it says here, but what they did in the field, well --

9 Q. All right. Just another question, because I have gone over my

10 time limit. A few days ago you mentioned -- that was page 132, line 9 and

11 10, of the unofficial record, asked whom -- whom of the accused you knew,

12 you mentioned Mr. Valentin Coric. Tell me, when did you meet Mr. Valentin

13 Coric?

14 A. That was during the post-war establishment of the organs of

15 authority in the cantons.

16 Q. And when was this specifically? What position did he hold?

17 A. He was the minister of the interior of the canton.

18 Q. Do you have meetings with him frequently? Did you cooperate with

19 him?

20 A. No, I did not, but I knew him and I know him through his deputy,

21 but I did not have dealings with him specifically.

22 Q. You are referring to Mr. Dzihic as his deputy?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You are talking about the establishment of a joint police force;

25 right?

1 A. Well, he's a well-known person, both in the Assembly of the canton

2 and through other forms of activities and contacts and his presence to

3 some joint events, but otherwise I didn't have direct dealings and talks

4 with him.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for this

7 witness.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have another 15 minutes

9 before the break. Mr. Coric has 15 minutes for his questions, we will

10 then have our break, and then Mr. Praljak will have another 15 minutes.

11 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examination by the accused Coric:

13 Q. Good day, Mr. Smajkic.

14 A. Good day.

15 Q. My name is Valentin Coric, I am one of the accused. I'd like to

16 put a number of questions to you that concern the political situation in

17 Mostar when a conflict broke out in the Muslim Corps. There was a

18 replacement of the legally elected president of the SDA in Mostar who was

19 also the president of the SDA of the town of Mostar. A certain circle of

20 which you were a part requested that he be replaced. You admitted that.

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. I've had a look at the names of the people involved in that circle

23 and I notice there are quite a few people who didn't participate in the

24 first democratically held elections; is that correct?

25 A. I don't know, I don't know who participated in the first elections,

1 but I do know the people from that circle who were in my vicinity at the

2 time.

3 Q. So we're talking about the Council of Muslims of Herzegovina,

4 we're talking about the declaration, the charter, we're talking about the

5 people who took part in the drafting of those three documents and who took

6 part in those institutions?

7 A. I know those people well but I don't know anything about 1991. I

8 don't know whether they participated or not in that, though, in the

9 elections. That's what you were referring to.

10 Q. I find this a little odd. Why was it legitimate for these people

11 to participate in political battles?

12 A. Well, they were forced to act in that way because

13 Mr. Hadziosmanovic wouldn't take into consideration the interests of the

14 Bosniak people.

15 Q. Who forced them?

16 A. What do you mean who forced them? These people became aware of

17 the situation, and they found methods and means of becoming active. They

18 were trying to find a way that would enable them to solve the problems of

19 education, the judiciary, of humanitarian aid, of protection in the most

20 effective way. And Mr. Hadziosmanovic didn't act in the way he should

21 have acted in that respect, so naturally people were quite right in

22 raising this issue, the issue of his responsibility.

23 Q. That's my question. Were these people entitled to bring into

24 question the position of a legally elected person?

25 A. Well, we didn't act in secret. We had the right to say that we

1 weren't satisfied with such a person.

2 Q. I obviously can't obtain a realistic answer from you, so my

3 following question is: That was the conclusion of a group of individuals.

4 They decided that he wasn't working correctly. You also referred to the

5 people, and you also said there was a small part of the people who were

6 with the SDA president.

7 A. Yes, that's what I said and I believe that that is correct.

8 Q. Did you establish a political party since you were not previously

9 engaged in a political party? Yes or no.

10 A. I was never a member of a political party.

11 Q. I know that, but I know that people surrounding you were. I

12 wanted to know what the results were -- what results they obtained when

13 they participated in the first democratic elections. It's odd that you

14 don't know anything about this. I'd like to move on, I don't want to

15 waste any time since time is precious.

16 The conclusion one can draw is that you received instructions from

17 someone to replace such a person. You weren't supported by the people.

18 Did you receive instructions from the outside?

19 A. Those instructions came from the inside.

20 Q. How, or was there a referendum held?

21 A. No, but there was disagreement.

22 Q. I'd like to present some arguments to you. At the time, there was

23 a significant number of Bosniaks or Muslims in the HVO. As we have

24 already seen today, that was the case. School directors were Bosniaks;

25 isn't that correct?

1 A. I was referring to the first stage.

2 Q. That's the period I'm referring to.

3 A. During the first stage -- well, Ms. Nozica had a list from the

4 first government, and it included Muslim ministers. They were replaced

5 within one month, and that's what the HVO and the HVO government did. A

6 few months later, there were new people who were appointed whereas the

7 others were replaced.

8 Q. I'm not talking about the SDA, I'm talking about the policies and

9 political positions in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was then going to

10 compare things. But what I want to clarify before this Chamber is what

11 the real cause of the conflict between the Croats and Bosniaks in Mostar

12 was. My question is as follows: Would you agree that the lines facing

13 the Serbo-Chetniks had already been established after June, 1993, and

14 those lines didn't move almost until the end of the war? Would you agree

15 with that? At that time the Croats and Bosniaks fought together. They

16 were in the HVO and acted within the HVO in a joint manner. And let me

17 remind you that the HVO was a legal member of the armed forces of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina; would you agree with that?

19 A. Yes, I would.

20 Q. So would you also agree with what I said in my previous question?

21 A. I couldn't agree with that because, as I have said, there was some

22 secret war being waged from the very beginning and there had been lines

23 established at Podvelezje. There were joint units there, and they drove

24 away the Serbo-Chetnik aggressor there. When the Croatian forces remained

25 to guard those lines, the Serbs took them.

1 Q. You are wasting my time, but I'd just like to repeat something

2 that's already been said here. We're talking about the period when the

3 relationship between the HVO and Independent Battalion or the ABiH was 9

4 to 1. There would be 9 HVO soldiers and 1 member of the Independent

5 Battalion. At that time they established lines facing the Serbs; is that

6 correct, during that period?

7 A. Yes, I agree with that.

8 Q. And what happened afterwards? Would you agree that the armed

9 forces in Herzegovina that were part of the ABiH were strengthened? There

10 was no imminent war with the Croats. At least, the Croats weren't

11 expecting such a war. Would you agree?

12 A. Yes. The forces were strengthened.

13 Q. My question is why? There was no longer a war with the Serbs and

14 it was certain that we wouldn't be fighting the Serbs.

15 A. That couldn't have been certain, because the politicians were

16 drawing up maps and trying to reach agreements and no one knew what was

17 going to happen. The Croats and Croatian leadership developed an appetite

18 for the territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. You're wasting my time again.

20 A. Please go ahead.

21 Q. Today we had a look at documents that mentioned the arming of the

22 members of the Independent Battalion. Do you believe that these weapons

23 could have come from some other country apart from Croatia?

24 A. Well, on the whole they came from Croatia. There were independent

25 channels that were used. Certain arms were bought from Chetniks, et

1 cetera, but on the whole that's correct.

2 Q. You said that you knew some of our common friends; isn't that

3 correct? And do you know who I'm -- who I bear in mind?

4 A. Mr. Dziho?

5 Q. Among others.

6 A. And Cupina.

7 Q. Yes. So you've spoken to them and they know how the first stage

8 of arming proceeded. Remember the late Daidza?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you agree that at the time we were very close to each other?

11 Do you agree that we trusted each other, at least, if we weren't close?

12 A. I assume so. I don't know what your personal relationships were.

13 Q. I'm not talking about intimate personal relationships.

14 A. Yes, they were -- they were friendly relationships.

15 Q. I'd like to conclude now. I have a few more questions. After all

16 those conflicts in Herzegovina or in the area for which you are competent

17 as a mufti, could you confirm the following: The Croats -- I'll start

18 with the top -- were expelled from Travnik, Kakanj, Vares, Bugojno,

19 Konjic, Jablanica, Eastern Mostar. Maybe I've forgotten something, but

20 that's sufficient. Do you know how many Croats were in fact expelled or,

21 rather, do you know how many Croats left?

22 A. Well, it's true that they left, that they weren't expelled,

23 though.

24 Q. Well, that's a different matter. I have different arguments.

25 A. I also have different arguments. But they did leave. They

1 weren't expelled.

2 Q. I've read an article in the Sarajevo newspaper which says that of

3 those Croats that were expelled at the time, only about 15 per cent of

4 those Croats have returned to their homes. Are you aware of that? I'm

5 talking about Kakanj, Vares, Bugojno.

6 A. Well, it was probably a small percentage, but that's the

7 percentage when it comes to all the various ethnic groups.

8 Q. Do you know at the same time in Herzegovina in Capljina and in

9 Stolac in Southern Mostar and Western Mostar - and I'm talking about the

10 Bosniaks - do you know that, according to that article, about 85 per cent

11 of the Bosniaks have returned to their homes?

12 A. Well, probably in the area of Stolac and Capljina. In Mostar,

13 that's not the case, because they wouldn't allow this in the western part

14 because of obstructions to returning.

15 Q. Since I've worked in the police, would you agree that while I was

16 the minister in the canton in Eastern Mostar, there were only 54 Croat

17 inhabitants, and that's in the entire area under the control of the

18 Bosniak authorities?

19 A. I don't know the exact number but it's a small number.

20 Q. You know it's a small number.

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Do you know that in Western Mostar at the same time there were

23 about 8 to 10.000 Bosniaks?

24 A. There are several thousand, but I don't think there are that many.

25 We don't have the statistics.

1 Q. Several thousand; 8.000, 6.000?

2 A. Well, that's a large number. 5 or 6.000, perhaps. I'm not sure.

3 Q. So we do agree that there were at least 5 or 6.000 inhabitants

4 there.

5 A. But could we also agree that 30 individuals were killed when

6 people attempted to return to Western Mostar, and that's from 1995 until

7 five years ago.

8 Q. Believe me, I have enough information about people who were

9 killed.

10 A. That's why I'm talking about that, because I know you were in the

11 police.

12 Q. I was in the police for seven years.

13 A. So I have to say that not a single case was dealt with.

14 Q. That's not correct, but I'm not being examined, you are. You have

15 all the information on the MUP according to which investigations were

16 carried out.

17 A. Not a single individual was charged and processed.

18 Q. That's your claim but I don't want to waste time on that. When

19 Mr. -- when Judge Antonetti asked you about certain linguistic matters,

20 I'm not an expert, he asked you the following: He said the official

21 language is Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he

22 asked you whether it was a matter of language or languages. What was your

23 answer? Do you remember?

24 A. I can't remember every word of my testimony.

25 Q. You said that it was a matter of language, that that was the name

1 of the language. I'm against the term "B/C/S." In Bosnia-Herzegovina we

2 all speak the Bosnian language or the Serbian language or the Croatian

3 language. Would you agree with that?

4 A. Yes, I do agree with that.

5 Q. So we're talking about three languages.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. So it's not a Bosno-Croato-Serbian language; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 A. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will have the

12 break now. But before we have the break, I have a question I'd like to

13 put to Mr. Praljak because the Judges perhaps have a procedural problem.

14 In the course of the cross-examination on the 25th of May you intervened

15 between 13.35 and 13.46. So you have already put questions to the

16 witness. Why do you want to put further questions, since the rule is that

17 once one of the parties has finished cross-examining, that's it?

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, because simply

19 some new claims have been advanced which I should like to challenge on the

20 basis of a couple of documents, with your permission. If not, then I

21 shall leave it for another opportunity. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll see about that

23 during the break. It's 3.30 p.m., and we will resume in 20 minutes' time.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 3.52 p.m.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, before we authorise

2 you to cross-examine this witness, we'd like to know what sort of

3 questions you'd like to put to the witness and how these questions relate

4 to the subjects raised by the witness. We'd like to know what the

5 relevance of these questions is. We don't want to prevent you from

6 cross-examining the witness, but according to the rules, after the

7 examination-in-chief there's the cross-examination, and once the

8 cross-examination has been concluded, it's not usually possible to

9 cross-examine again. So could you tell us something about the new issues

10 raised and about the questions you'd like to put to this witness.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In

12 the series of allegations made during the examination, it was said that

13 the Bosnian army - army of Bosnia-Herzegovina - was founded on the 15th of

14 April, 1992. I wish to demonstrate that that is not true.

15 Twice the witness stated that the Croatian policy was

16 hypocritical, meaning that it was duplicitous, that people meant one

17 thing, did another, and said yet a third thing while pursuing that policy.

18 On the basis of two documents, I wish to demonstrate what Croatia did --

19 had done for Bosnia and Herzegovina, in two of thousands of documents,

20 mind you.

21 Also, the milieu in which the Muslims -- sorry, the encirclement

22 in which the Muslims on the east side of Mostar were after the

23 Croato-Muslim conflict were, has been repeatedly referred to here, so I

24 have a map here to show what extent of territory they had at their

25 disposal and what communications -- communication links towards Jablanica

1 and Konjic were available at the time.

2 In addition to that, I should like to show a document about the

3 dispatch of arms to Sarajevo which Mr. Stojic, Mr. Petkovic, and Mr. -- I

4 had sent and received a citation from the commander Zikic, the commander

5 of the Sarajevo units, thanking us for having dispatched those weapons to

6 them. And I do this with the intention of showing with how much

7 enthusiasm and passion we worked on the joint front of battling the

8 aggressor and to show the extent to which we managed despite the fact that

9 we were unable to find the political solution to end the war conflicts

10 within the period of a year and a half.

11 Thank you.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we decide, we believe

14 that with regard to the issue of maps, the three dimensional one that you

15 obtained from Google that pertains to the encirclement, we believe that

16 that might be useful. And then there's the issue of weapons, and

17 according to what you said, there's a document that shows that Sarajevo

18 thanked you for your efforts. So restrict your questions to those

19 matters, because we've discussed the issue of 15th of April a lot.

20 And with regard to the allegations of witness about the

21 duplicitous Croatian policies, well, this is a pure speculation. So do

22 concentrate on the issue of the map and of the weapons, and don't forget

23 that you have only 15 minutes. Please don't use up any more time than

24 that.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. There is

2 a mistake, a very important one in the transcript, I think, given your

3 decision to allow Mr. Praljak certain questions. Page 119, line 11, it is

4 Zikic, and it should be Vikic. A "V" is the initial, thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So the name is Vikic

6 and not Zikic.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Praljak. You can put --

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]. Thank you. Can we see the

9 first document. Please move it a bit to the left and up. Thank you.

10 Cross-examination by the accused Praljak:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, would you please take a look at this

12 map. On the top left it says Potoci, and the bottom right corner shows a

13 river, and please show to Their Honours where Mostar is. Zoom in, please.

14 Zoom in. No, no, zoom out. Zoom out. Zoom out. More, please. And

15 more. Thank you. That's good.

16 Mr. Smajkic, would you please point to Mostar.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you have the appropriate pen

18 on you, the appropriate pointer, please use it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this is Potoci here where I

20 pointed with my pen. This is the north part from the road from Sarajevo

21 and towards the city of Mostar.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Yes. And then it goes on towards the south. This is the river

24 Neretva?

25 A. Yes, this is the river Neretva.

1 Q. Would you show Blagaj and the river Buna. This here is the

2 airport. And then go down this way. This is Blagaj here. Right. And

3 then Buna. Right.

4 A. Well, the capital B stands for Blagaj, I expect.

5 Q. Can you please tell Their Honours, how many kilometres are there

6 from Blagaj to Potoci?

7 A. From Blagaj to Mostar it is about 12 kilometres, and then to

8 Potoci thereabouts also; 10 kilometres or so, 12 perhaps.

9 Q. We see the river Neretva here, and the left side, and not only the

10 left side but also the right bank, in this part of Mostar was controlled

11 after the 1993 conflict between the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

12 HVO, all those parts were controlled by the forces of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The left side of the Neretva, the left bank.

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. We shall agree that from the entrance to the canyon towards

16 Jablanica up to Blagaj there is approximately 30 kilometres. The distance

17 between these two points is approximately 30 kilometres and there are two

18 deep valleys there and the city of Mostar, and on the left there was a

19 substantial part on the right part of the right bank of the Neretva which

20 was under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; am I correct in

21 saying this?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you please now show the other map.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just add a question? Can you show us,

25 Witness, in which direction does the Neretva flow? Does it flow, seen on

1 the map, from top to bottom, or the other way round?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from top to bottom.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we see the next map,

5 please. Move it a bit -- a bit up and to the left, please. Up and left.

6 Up and left, Ms. Usher. Would you lift the map leftwards. That's it.

7 Thank you very much.

8 Q. Mr. Smajkic, if you please, the arterial highway from Ploce and

9 Metkovic, Capljina and Mostar leads towards Jablanica, Konjic and Sarajevo

10 on the left bank of the Neretva; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it is controlled by the section which we just referred to, the

13 left bank of the Neretva, under the control of the army of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. In that period?

16 Q. In that period.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Look here on the map above the G, the letter G. There is a small

19 inlet. You can see that. An inlet above the G of the Google, of the word

20 "Google." That's right, there. So we can see that. That is water, of

21 course. That is a lake. That is an inlet of a lake. And across that

22 inlet was the bridge of Bijela which, according to our information, was

23 destroyed by Serbian artillery. Can you see from the satellite image of

24 Google satellite image that there is a road on the left and right -- to

25 the left and right of that inlet, a macadam road which was made when the

1 bridge was erected and which could be used at any time to pass from Mostar

2 towards Jablanica and Konjic? So it was an asphalt road up to the inlet

3 point, and 150 metres there was a macadam road around the inlet, and then

4 again an asphalt road towards Jablanica. Am I saying this correctly?

5 A. I know that there was a detour there. This detour was used by the

6 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This bypass was used by it to establish

7 contact with Jablanica after the bridge was blown up.

8 Q. Right. So we have the asphalt road Sarajevo, Konjic, Jablanica,

9 we have this interruption of the asphalt road, we have 150 metres of

10 macadam road, and then a continued asphalt road on towards Blagaj, Mostar

11 and so on; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. How, then, can we speak about the total encirclement, the total

14 shutting off of Mostar when, in the same position as Mostar was,

15 unfortunately, after our conflict, in the same or worse position were

16 Sarajevo and Bihac and Zepce, Srebrenica too, and Central Bosnia, for that

17 matter, Kiseljak, et cetera? Unfortunately, we had the situation

18 characterised by conflicts and encirclements, but we cannot but say the

19 truth. We have to say that the Mostar area -- we cannot say that the

20 situation in the Mostar and its access and the roads leading outside of

21 Mostar were such that we can speak about the severance of communications

22 to and from Mostar; am I saying the right thing?

23 A. I can't agree with you there. We can speak about that after a

24 breakthrough, after the linking up of Mostar with Bijelo Polje, but until

25 HVO was holding the northern camp during that period and Zalik, that was

1 indeed a big camp. The entire city of Mostar was.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can I clarify a point on the transcript? On page

3 123, line 13, I read we have 150 metres of a macadam road. Should it be

4 metres or should it be kilometres?

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Metres, sir.

6 Q. Mr. Witness -- Mr. Smajkic, I apologise, was the northern camp,

7 was it taken by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 30th of June, 1993?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can we then speak about this communication being free and

10 accessible as of that date?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So as of that date, it was open, all communication, towards Mostar

13 with this difficult problem of 150 metres of a macadam road?

14 A. Yes. In my assessment, that was the situation.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Can we see the third document, please.

16 Mr. Smajkic, would you be so kind as to read it out, with the

17 dates.

18 A. "Hi, Bruno. It being impossible for us to see each other and hear

19 each other --" zoom out. Zoom out.

20 Q. We can see it quite clearly.

21 A. "It being impossible for us to see and hear each other, I wish in

22 this way to confirm for you receipt of MTS that you sent to my unit and to

23 me. In addition to acknowledging receipt of the same, I also wish to

24 profoundly thank you and to wish you and your family the best of health.

25 Please, in addition to you, convey my gratitude to the gentlemen General

1 Major Slobodan Praljak, to Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic, and to Minister

2 Bozo Rajic. Bruno, in addition to these MTS that you have dispatched to

3 me, I also require the following ..." and then he goes on to enumerate.

4 Q. Thank you. The date, please.

5 A. The 23rd of February, 1993.

6 Q. During this trial, there will be presented thousands of documents

7 of this kind, but from this particular one we can see that there was a

8 continued endeavour to help in each and every place where the aggressor

9 wanted to or could have been successful either vis-a-vis the Muslims or

10 the Croats or the Croats and Muslims together.

11 Mr. Smajkic, do you think that it was very simple just to simply

12 load these things? Do you appreciate how much effort it took, how much

13 ability it took to load this onto trucks and have it reach Sarajevo?

14 A. I'm quite aware of that.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for

16 having given me this opportunity.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are requesting

18 that these two documents be admitted into evidence. The photo isn't a

19 problem, the document hasn't been translated into English. Mr. Kovacic.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I was just about to propose that it

21 be conditionally admitted into the file and which shall, of course, ensure

22 the necessary translation. We have asked for it to be made.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as the photograph

24 is concerned, there's no need to have it translated, but on the other

25 hand, as far as the other document is concerned, well, we could mark it

1 for identification.

2 Mr. Registrar, could we have two numbers, please.

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, seeing that I am on my

4 feet, I should like to tender also into evidence document 3D 00188, which

5 I used in my cross-examination the day before yesterday, and that is a

6 record of the hearing of the same witness in the case IT-98-34-T, from the

7 17th to the 19th of October, 2001.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we need three

11 numbers.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. The last document then

13 mentioned by Mr. Kovacic a minute ago will therefore have the tendering

14 date and admission date of today and will be referenced as 3D 00188.

15 As to the two documents used by Mr. Praljak today, I understand

16 the map will be admitted as IC document. It's going to be IC 00022.

17 With respect to the text or the written document, we may want to

18 admit it under IC 00023, marked for identification pending translation to

19 be provided by Mr. Kovacic, I understand. Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Jonjic, try and go through a

21 list very rapidly. Mr. Registrar, please take care, because there will be

22 a lot of numbers now.

23 MR. JONJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

24 like to correct the transcript. Page 89, line 8, my question -- not the

25 response by the witness, but my question was inserted incorrectly. This

1 was the list of the directors of -- of elementary and secondary schools in

2 Mostar. It seems that I suggested all were Croats and it should be quite

3 the opposite; it should be Muslims.

4 And now the documents. There are 18 of them, so I think it would

5 be simpler if I say all are proceeded by a 5D mark and the first digit is

6 0, and then the numbers are as follows: 1104, 1105, 1106, 1107, 1108,

7 1109, 1110, 1111, 1112, 1113, 1091 -- 1091, 1093, 1081, 1082, 1083, 1084,

8 1069, and the last one, 1115. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. Indeed we have a

11 series of 18 exhibits. These are tendered and admitted with today's

12 date: 5D 01104, 5D 01105, 5D 01106, 5D 01107, 5D 01108, 5D 01109,

13 5D 01110, 5D 01111, 5D 01112, 5D 01113, 5D 01091, 5D 01093, 5D 01081,

14 5D 01082, 5D 01083, 5D 01084, 5D 01069, 5D 01115. And this completes the

15 list. Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17 Before I give the floor to Mr. Scott, I'd just like to comment on the

18 number of exhibits. I'm beginning to be very concerned given the number

19 of exhibits. I'd like to remind you that the Prosecution intended to

20 tender 9.500 documents, but since the beginning of the trial the Defence

21 has tendered an enormous number of documents. And with regard to

22 Mr. Coric's documents, we have 1.115 documents. Not all have been

23 admitted for the moment, but this means that Mr. Coric's Defence believes

24 that they'll have more than a thousand documents to tender into evidence,

25 and this is still the Prosecution stage. When the Defence commence,

1 you'll have a significantly greater number of documents to tender. So

2 we'll be dealing with more than 20.000 documents. That's quite certain.

3 That's why I suggest that when you present your documents, when you tender

4 your documents, be rapid, as Mr. Jonjic was, and we'll then be able to

5 admit documents into evidence more easily. We're following this very

6 closely, and naturally we'll examine everything in detail under a

7 magnifying glass.

8 We have now reached the stage of re-examination. Mr. Scott, let

9 me remind you that re-examination must relate to the questions put in the

10 course of the cross-examination.

11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. Before I begin, Your

12 Honour, just an observation, and I'm not really casting stones at the

13 Defence because I think everyone in this institution realises the

14 difficulty of translation - I'm not talking about interpretation in the

15 courtroom but the translation of documents - can be. Having said that, a

16 substantial number of Defence documents have not been translated, and of

17 course that makes it virtually impossible for the Prosecution and

18 presumably for most of the Judges to make much sense of these documents or

19 to ask informed questions on the documents when they've not yet been

20 translated, and then the witness of course is gone, and it's very

21 impossible to really deal with the documents adequately in that way.

22 Having said that, Your Honour, my questions to Mufti Smajkic are

23 primarily in the nature of things that he indicated during

24 cross-examination he wanted to clarify and add comments to, and he was

25 repeatedly told during the cross-examination that the Prosecution could

1 give him the opportunity to clarify those matters or address those

2 matters. So based on that, I do indeed want to give him the opportunity

3 to clarify a number of things, but all arising from cross-examination.

4 Re-examination by Mr. Scott:

5 Q. The first of those, Mufti Smajkic, is this: You talked about in

6 direct examination -- or it came up perhaps in cross-examination, excuse

7 me, the appointment of Mr. Jaganjac as the commander of the unified

8 Croat-Muslim forces in connection with the defence for liberation of

9 Mostar. I believe you said in response to Defence question from

10 Mr. Stojic's counsel, most of these people -- excuse me. Most people

11 thought that Mr. Jaganjac's appointment would be helpful, would be a

12 conciliatory gesture, but I want to give you the chance to say did it in

13 fact turn out at that way? Was -- that may have been the intention. What

14 happened in reality?

15 A. That's what I actually stated, and I had a lot of friends and

16 relatives who were in a dilemma. They didn't know whether to join the HVO

17 - and this is the truth - because if they did so, they would have weapons

18 and certain other benefits. However, if they remained in the army, they

19 wouldn't have any weapons, and they wouldn't have everything they would

20 have been provided with had they been in the HVO.

21 What they were concerned with was focusing their efforts on

22 defeating a common enemy. This is why they thought in this way. So they

23 thought, well, they're finally sending us someone from Croatia who was in

24 the Croatian army, at the same time he's a Muslim, so it was a form of

25 reconciliation. That's what people wanted. But I can't really criticise

1 Mr. Jaganjac because he was just carrying out orders. He had a command

2 that was above him. But I'm firmly convinced that this was done to

3 attract armed individuals who might be able to contribute to liberating

4 that territory. They wanted to ensure that they joined the HVO and that,

5 as a result, the armija would be weakened.

6 Q. You also -- it was also pointed out to you in cross-examination

7 that when the Mostar Crisis Staff was disbanded on about the 15th of May,

8 1992, and these separate or new structures, HVO structures, were put into

9 place, it was pointed out to you on a number of documents that some

10 persons who were Muslims were put in various of these positions, and I

11 believe you attempted to say in answer to some questions about this that

12 most of the -- how -- despite the fact that they were originally put in

13 those positions, that they did not remain in those positions very long,

14 but I want to give you a further opportunity to address that. How was

15 that the case, and explain that to the Judges, please.

16 A. Thank you, Mr. Scott, for that question. That's true. I felt

17 very uneasy when Ms. Nozica showed me that document, and I quite simply

18 had to react because that's correct. That is true. There were -- 50 per

19 cent of the staff were Muslims, and there were that many Croats. And

20 Commander Jaganjac was a Muslim, or he was a member of the Muslim Corps.

21 However, our people, the Muslims who were present in that area at the

22 time, had to face incredible problems in that there were disavowals of

23 everything that resembled the sovereignty and territorial integrity of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There's no doubt about this.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I object to such an answer because

1 the witness is talking about other people's experiences and the situation

2 they found themselves in and how they reacted to that situation. I think

3 that the witness can testify about what he has personal knowledge about,

4 and if the Prosecution believes that it's necessary to provide further

5 arguments, they can use other witnesses to demonstrate or to prove the

6 sort of situation they were in. The witness cannot comment on such

7 things. Thank you very much.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but may I add

9 something, Ms. Nozica. These gentlemen brought copies of resignations

10 from these positions. Apart from the resignation of Mr. Hadziosmanovic,

11 they provided me with such copies. I'm not inventing anything.

12 MR. SCOTT:

13 Q. And if you know -- I'm not asking you to speculate, but based on

14 what you've just said, if you know, why were the Muslims who were

15 initially named to some of these positions by the HVO, why were they

16 resigning from these positions?

17 A. They resigned for the simple reason that anti-Bosnian policies

18 were being pursued. What was at stake was implementing a programme

19 achieving objectives established on the 18th of November, 1991, and that

20 objective was the establishment of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

21 Q. All right, sir. I'm going to move forward, because I don't want

22 to take too much additional time this afternoon, to the question of your

23 appointment -- or recommendation, I should say, of this man who became a

24 cleric in the Muslim forces in the Mostar area. And I want to make sure

25 that's as clear as possible. And it may assist if the registry could

1 please show the witness -- or please display Exhibit 2D 00013.

2 And while that's being done, to remind you, Mufti Smajkic, and the

3 courtroom what was said in particular about this, Mr. Kovacic read to you

4 -- put this question to you: "Mr. Arif Pasalic or someone --" this is at

5 page 2634 of the transcript. "Mr. Arif Pasalic or someone else asked me

6 who would be responsible for the appointment. I then contacted some

7 people in Zenica as well as Mr. Mahmut Rajlic [phoen], who was the

8 commander --" and then the interpreters corrected that, not the commander

9 but who was the Emir of the 7th Brigade. If you recall those questions

10 and answers with Mr. Kovacic. Now, if you look -- if you have now in

11 front of you 2D 00013. I just want to make sure there is no confusion in

12 the courtroom. The person that you appointed to this clerical position,

13 this was someone in the Mostar Muslim forces?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. You did not appoint anyone who was a member of the 7th Muslim

16 Brigade.

17 A. We didn't appoint anyone, nor were there any foreigners in that

18 unit.

19 Q. When you say "that unit," which unit are you referring to?

20 A. I'm referring to the unit in which we appointed Nemir Ibrahimovic,

21 this Muslim forces unit.

22 Q. In Mostar.

23 A. In Mostar.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction of the name: Mimic

25 Ibrahim.

1 MR. SCOTT:

2 Q. Sir, a number of questions were put to you by various Defence

3 counsel about this publication called "Instructions to the Muslim

4 Fighter." Once again, there are a number of times when you attempted to

5 give a broader explanation of various points made, and I simply want to

6 give you an opportunity clarify anything that was put to you in relation

7 to the publication "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter."

8 A. Thank you. And I'd like to thank the Chamber too. I can't really

9 say that my convictions were in some way unsettled, but I do know some

10 people, Halil Mehtic, Hasan Mekic, and certain other individuals who were

11 active, and if they drafted a text or a brochure, given their

12 qualifications and their moral positions, I don't believe they could have

13 drafted some sort of a text that would have spread hatred and animosity

14 towards someone else. The very title "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter"

15 demonstrates that these are suggestions that concern a moral code for

16 Muslim fighters. They're told not to steal, to act in a disciplined way,

17 to demonstrate solidarity, concern, et cetera, et cetera. And above all,

18 they're strictly ordered not to kill women, the elderly, children. They

19 mustn't destroy places of worship, et cetera. So these are general

20 civilised standards of behaviour.

21 In one of the sentences in the text, and responding to Mr. Praljak

22 to an extent, in one of the sentences it's not a fight against

23 non-Muslims. And I'm glad I've found this part. It says that the

24 greatest jihad is to tell a leader, a despot, a man of power, that he is

25 wrong and that he is not acting properly.

1 You can find that sentence in that text, and you have got this

2 document on your list as one of the documents that is to be translated.

3 So it's not matter of encouraging people or fighters to kill.

4 It's more a matter of avoiding unnecessary acts. If weapons can be kept

5 silent, they should be kept silent. They should not be used. War is war,

6 and when people are arrested, certain things happen. In all armies there

7 are differences between releasing prisoners, exchanging prisoners,

8 requesting ransoms, and in extreme and rare cases the court-martials that

9 can process certain cases and mete out the death penalty. But this

10 doesn't concern this first area I was talking about.

11 After the instructions on behaviour, it says that these

12 suggestions that Muslim fighters have to adhere to. However, if certain

13 things happen, then you have to act in certain ways. When arresting

14 individuals when they're -- acts of the slaughter are carried out, when

15 very serious crimes are committed in the course of military operations,

16 then there is a particular law that comes into force, that is valid, and

17 this naturally concerns Muslim states. But we were not concerned; we

18 didn't have such intentions.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak is on his feet.

20 Usually in the course of the re-examination there should not be any other

21 interventions, but, Mr. Praljak, what is the problem?

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, I never

23 commented at all on the "Instructions to the Muslim Fighters." I said on

24 the basis of the documents shown to this Court and in this court, the

25 Muderiz Brigade, in its structure, in its line-ups, always uttered the

1 following words: "All of you together: Whom are you fighting for?" The

2 response was: "For Allah." And then the next question to the brigade

3 was: "Against whom are you fighting?" The Muderiz Brigade replied:

4 "Against the Vlahs." So I just provided an explanation which I think was

5 in order, that in Bosnia and Herzegovina the concept of the Vlahs

6 encompassed Catholics and Orthodox, the Orthodox. I'm not talking in

7 general terms. This referred to the Muderiz Brigade specifically. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You've already said

10 that, though.

11 Mr. Scott, please proceed.

12 MR. SCOTT: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 1D 00428.

13 Q. Do you have that, sir?

14 A. No. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. All right. As a reminder, sir, this is a letter that apparently,

16 according to the Defence, Mr. Boban wrote on the 17th of May, 1992. Can

17 you assist the Judges, Mufti Smajkic, by saying, to your knowledge, was

18 this letter written by Mr. Boban, was this written after there had been an

19 international outcry and rejection of the secret bilateral talks between

20 Karadzic and Boban?

21 A. I think so. I think that it was.

22 Q. Mr. Karnavas this morning showed you some documents about the --

23 or at least a document - perhaps several - about the names -- streets, the

24 changing of names of streets and other names in Mostar. And can you

25 assist the Judges, please, just -- apart from what the documents said on

1 their face, did that in fact happen? That is, were these names actually

2 -- and street signs and names actually changed pursuant to the documents

3 that Mr. Karnavas showed you, if you know or can recall?

4 A. I know, I do know. This did not happen in practice in this

5 section, in this part of the city.

6 Q. Can the --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying you don't

8 contest the documents Mr. Karnavas showed you, but in reality, there were

9 no positive effects as a result of this change.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some changes did take place in the

11 west part of the city, whereas in the so-called eastern part of the city

12 the names of streets were not changed, and that is the truth. We did not

13 want to do that, Your Honours, precisely because we were committed to

14 preserving the unity of the city. We wanted to reach an agreement in some

15 way.

16 Of course, in the west part of the city there were also some names

17 with some Muslim dignitaries, some street names bearing the names of

18 Muslim dignitaries, not all Bolsheviks, as they say. So somebody perhaps

19 might object to that -- those streets having such names.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So based on the documents we saw

21 this morning, we had the impression that they were Bolsheviks, but you

22 said, no, they were not just Bolsheviks.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

24 MR. SCOTT:

25 Q. If the witness could next be shown, please, Exhibit 1D 00382. If

1 we could see that, please. Excuse me, Your Honour. I'm just

2 double-checking the reference.

3 Just as an example, sir, Mr. Karnavas showed you also a series of

4 documents about the appointments of various Muslims as schoolteachers or

5 various other positions, and once again, Mr. Karnavas said if anyone --

6 anything more needed to be said, the Prosecution would give you an

7 opportunity to address that, so I want to do so.

8 So is there anything more you want to say about the appointments

9 of various Muslims as schoolteachers or other positions as reflected in

10 the documents Mr. Karnavas showed?

11 A. Thank you, Mr. Scott. You just read my thoughts. I think that

12 this is -- it is of decisive importance to know this. We have not come

13 here to try and outwit one another, because in the documents you can find

14 this and you can find that.

15 I am a homegrown person, a person of the people, and I know. I'm

16 familiar with these things much more than other people are. So believe

17 me, just like in the case of the appointment of the first government in

18 which the Muslims -- to which the Muslims and the Bosniaks were appointed,

19 believe me in this particular instance, and I stand by this, invoking my

20 oath: You could see that in 1991 and 1992, 19 -- and these two years,

21 most of the principals of schools were indeed Muslims, but it is important

22 to know that the Croats had relocated their children from Mostar as a war

23 zone and had their children educated either in Western Herzegovina or in

24 Croatia. So it is only logical that the authorities were -- organised

25 things in this way later. However, there was a transformation, and I can

1 say that these -- this Muslim personnel was removed from their positions

2 en masse.

3 Q. All right, sir. Mostly a point of clarification: In questioning

4 today that had to do with the time period April, 1993, in one of your

5 answers you said -- you made reference to -- that the army of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina was established on the 15th of April. Now, can you

7 tell the Judges whether that -- were you referring then at that moment to

8 the celebration of the one-year anniversary or that the army was created

9 in 1993?

10 A. I can tell you exactly what this is about. Namely, it is possible

11 that there was a discrepancy, that there was -- there were differences as

12 to which date to take and whom which date suited, whether it was the

13 defence, the Territorial Defence, the Patriotic League, or the Independent

14 Battalion, and so on. But let me repeat first and foremost: I'm not a

15 soldier, but I was around these people as well as around politicians,

16 because simply the times were such. This was a struggle of a people for

17 bare survival, and it was about saving human lives. I know, because I

18 attended the ceremony marking the day of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

19 and that was the 15th of April. So the 15th of April is the day which

20 commemorates that date. This year we attended the ceremony as well.

21 I wish to say that it was precisely on that date that the HVO made

22 a show of force in the east part of the city, pulling in formidable

23 hardware into the city, tanks and multi-barrel rocket launchers and what

24 have you, which were hooked up to tracks, vehicles, and mortars and such.

25 All that meant to associate people to that 15th of April date as the date

1 the army was formed.

2 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but this is

3 supposed to be a redirect examination, and what's happening here is that

4 Mr. Scott is asking completely open-ended questions, allowing the witness

5 to make a speech that often has no relevance whatsoever to the question,

6 and, Your Honours, since we have very little opportunity, if any, to

7 respond at this point, it's a completely inappropriate way to conduct a

8 redirect examination.

9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I will agree on this particular occasion

10 Mr. Smajkic's answer is probably a bit longer than it needed to be. Let

11 me repeat my original question and I will indeed ask Mr. Smajkic to be as

12 responsive as possible.

13 Q. Sir, I just simply wanted you to clarify. You said just a moment

14 ago again that the formation of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is

15 celebrated each year on the 15th of April, and can you just tell the

16 Judges, what was the first year -- what was the date, the 15th of April of

17 what year when the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was first established?

18 A. Well, the date that was officially taken - of course, I'm no

19 expert on the issue - but the official date of its establishment was that.

20 Of course, there existed different units before and after that during the

21 resistance period, but that was taken as the official date.

22 Q. Mr. Smajkic, I'll try one more time, and if we don't get it I'll

23 move on. All I'm asking from you is to clarify the year, because earlier

24 today that was said in context of 1993. I want to make sure there was no

25 confusion. In what year -- 15th of April in what year was the army of

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina established?

2 A. 1992. 1992.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To be quite clear, the army was

4 created in 1992, and on the 15th of April, 1993, there was an anniversary.

5 Is that what you are saying?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now it's clear for

8 everyone.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. You did it much better than

10 I did.

11 Q. If I could ask the witness to be shown Exhibit 5D 01083. And this

12 is my one of last two or three questions.

13 Let me know when you have that, sir.

14 A. I can see it now.

15 Q. If you can -- if the registry can go -- move down into the -- some

16 of the text of that document so we can just refresh ...

17 Let me direct -- if I can direct the registry's attention, I don't

18 know -- it's page 373 of the B/C/S version. I don't have an ERN number.

19 It should be about the fourth or fifth page of the document. I'm sorry.

20 Could we go to 5D -- there are multiple excerpts from the same book.

21 Could you give me 5D 01083 -- 84, excuse me.

22 And just in looking at that as we're looking, we'll go to another

23 page in a moment, but are you familiar with this publication? At any time

24 have you seen this publication prior to today?

25 A. Your Honours, I've never seen this before.

1 Q. I'm directing your attention to the page that's on the screen now,

2 the reference to Mr. Muftic and an excerpt that was given concerning

3 Mr. Muftic and at least in the English translation it refers to Mr. Muftic

4 as a leader of a terrorist group. Now, do you have any information apart

5 from what it says on the face of this page whether that's true information

6 or an accurate characterisation or not?

7 A. Thank you for this opportunity. In response to a question from

8 the Defence, I said that I had never seen that book before, which is what

9 I told you, but in trials before Yugoslav courts at that time, 10

10 individuals from this group were shot in front of a firing squad, and this

11 was a matter that couldn't be publicly discussed, it couldn't be openly

12 discussed.

13 I haven't read this, but superficially I could say that people

14 involved in investigations obtained by force declarations from these 10

15 individuals who were publicly executed.

16 Q. Sir, I'm going to cut you a little short again to avoid objections

17 by counsel and use our time wisely. Just specifically let me ask you this

18 in light of what you've already said: When did this execution occur?

19 When were these men killed by firing squad as you've just indicated?

20 A. Between 1947 to 1949. From 1947 to 1949, that's the period.

21 Q. And, sir, various things that Mr. Jonjic showed you in these

22 documents after document after document, do you have any reason to

23 believe, for example, that this document has anything to do with anything

24 that happened in Mostar in 1992 or 1993?

25 A. No.

1 Q. And final question, sir: Mr. Coric asked you some questions about

2 the removal of democratically elected persons and specifically the removal

3 of Mr. Hadziosmanovic from one of his positions. Can you just clarify for

4 the Judges, please: The removal of Mr. Hadziosmanovic, was that from a

5 political-- internal political party position or was that from a position

6 as an elected public official?

7 A. He was appointed by the SDA party leadership. He wasn't elected

8 at the first democratic elections. To be 100 per cent precise, I would

9 say that Mr. Tarik Muftic, a surgeon from Mostar, was the first SDA

10 president in Mostar. He had political ambitions. He was an elderly man.

11 But then Mr. Hadziosmanovic took over. And naturally we didn't have the

12 right to replace him, but we informed his superiors that what he was doing

13 was not correct. As citizens represented by him, we thought it was our

14 right to object to individuals who represented the certain party or the

15 interests of the Muslims in a political sense.

16 And since this is very important, Mr. Hadziosmanovic was president

17 of the SDA Municipal Board and of the Regional Board. So we had

18 objections from towns, from the region of Bosnia-Herzegovina, from Prozor,

19 Konjic, Jablanica, Stolac, et cetera. This was not acceptable. There

20 were these lobbies -- there was this lobbying. So they contacted the

21 mufti, who was some figure of authority, in order to try to have him

22 removed, at least from that position.

23 Q. Thank you, Mufti. Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usually after re-examination

25 there should be no more interventions unless it's for some exceptional

1 reason. In that case, you should ask for our leave. Yes.

2 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking for your leave to ask

3 some questions that concern two questions put by the Prosecution, and it

4 concerns the appointment of school principals. I have documents that

5 relate to this. I want to refer to certain parts of the decision

6 concerning changing the names of streets in Mostar, and this hasn't so far

7 been dealt with.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We don't really see why that

10 would be important. You've shown documents -- you showed documents in the

11 course of your cross-examination, numerous documents which everyone

12 followed. When re-examining the witness, the Prosecution asked the

13 witness whether the names were all Bolshevik names or whether they were

14 Muslim names too. The witness said they were Muslim ones. So does your

15 question cast any doubt on -- on the answer?

16 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The reason for changing the names

17 of the street in the decision, and they are mentioned in the decision,

18 will cast light on his testimony. As far as appointing directors of

19 schools in Mostar is concerned --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, please put your questions

21 to the witness, but very rapidly.

22 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I first go through the

23 documents. It will be very quick.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have the document.

25 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Could the usher show

1 document 1D 00503.

2 Further cross-examination by Ms. Tomanovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, you can see a decision on appointing

4 an acting director of the school in Blagaj. Can you read out his name.

5 A. Mr. Akif Balalic.

6 Q. He's a Muslim, is he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please read out the date of the decision.

9 A. The 11th of February, 1993.

10 Q. Thank you. Could I see the next document, please.

11 A. Blagaj is --

12 Q. Please, don't forget that I'm in charge of these questions.

13 Could we see the following document: 1D 00502.

14 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we have a problem with the

15 e-court, I have a hard copy for the ELMO.

16 Q. Mr. Smajkic, you can see a decision on appointing an acting

17 director of the 4th Primary School in Mostar. Can you read out the name

18 of the person. Please read out his name.

19 A. I will. Muslija Jugo. We've seen this.

20 Q. No, we haven't. Is he a Muslim?

21 A. Yes, he is.

22 Q. Could you read out the date. When was he appointed?

23 A. On the 8th of April, 1993.

24 Q. Thank you. Could I see the next document, 1 --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have two new

1 documents here and two new names. We have the date April, 1993. What was

2 the purpose of the exercise? Put the question to him immediately.

3 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The purpose is since Mr. Smajkic

4 said that all the directors of the primary schools were replaced later on,

5 well, we never -- he never defined when this occurred, and I want to

6 show --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, put a direct question to

8 him. I'll do it.

9 You said that there were appointments of Muslim directors, Muslim

10 principals, and they were replaced or dismissed later on. So when would

11 you say that they were dismissed? You've been shown documents showing

12 that they were appointed in April. So when would you say that these

13 individuals were dismissed?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are purely Muslim areas.

15 Blagaj, where Akif Balalic was the director, is an area in which only

16 Muslims live, and that is the case for the 4th Muslim -- the 4th Mostar

17 school.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We want to know whether the

19 teachers who were appointed, the Muslim ones, remained in their positions

20 or were they dismissed? Defence counsel wants to show that they were not

21 dismissed.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps there were re-elections.

23 Perhaps they were there and they remained there in those positions,

24 because those areas were Muslim areas.

25 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Could you just tell me, with regard to this decision, who signed

2 the decision that you have on the screen now?

3 A. Mr. Topic.

4 Q. And Mr. Topic was the president of?

5 A. The president of the HVO.

6 Q. Thank you very much. If we can now go back to the decision on

7 appointing and -- on -- the document concerned is 1D 00462, and it's the

8 document on changing the names on the streets. We can use the ELMO.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've got it.

10 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is not on the screen. At

11 least, not on mine.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's on the screen now.

13 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Smajkic, if you can -- if you can please just scroll this

15 document down a bit. In fact, can the document be moved up a bit? A bit

16 more down, so that we can see the entire paragraph number II.

17 Mr. Smajkic, would you please read out paragraph number II,

18 paragraph number II of this decision.

19 A. You mean this, "The individual ..."

20 Q. Yes, I mean that.

21 A. "The individual restoration of the earlier designations, the

22 renaming and the name of streets and processes shall be a lengthy process

23 which the commission shall undertake on a continuous basis and for which

24 it is eliciting the ideas -- soliciting the ideas, proposals and

25 assistance of the citizens of Mostar and other citizens of the Croatian

1 Community of Herceg-Bosna which may be forwarded in written form to the

2 address of the Croatian Defence Council of Mostar municipality." Shall I

3 go on?

4 Q. Yes, please do, the next sentence.

5 A. "To the commission for naming and renaming of the streets and

6 squares in Mostar municipality. By renaming the streets and squares, we

7 wish to return to the citizens of Mostar -- we wish to repay the citizens

8 of Mostar for we have never accepted the names of those who -- whose sons

9 and grandsons destroyed the city."

10 Q. Do you agree with me that this decision was intended for the

11 citizens of Mostar?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more

14 questions.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for giving

16 me this opportunity. I just have one question when I have this

17 opportunity. Can ask you for your leave to ask a question regarding the

18 practical application of the instructions given in the booklet

19 "Instructions to an Islamic Fighter"?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, ma'am.

21 Further cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Smajkic, today in reference to the first

23 section of the book which are some -- which is actually moral guidance to

24 the Islamic fighter, you said that the second section was intended for

25 those who were to act so only in the case of extreme -- in the case of

1 extreme necessity. So I'm going to ask you, do you know that during the

2 war in Bosnia and Herzegovina this provision was at all applied by ritual

3 killings of prisoners? Do you know of any such instances? Of course the

4 provision of this booklet.

5 A. I heard about one or two cases.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this concludes your

9 testimony. I thank you for coming to The Hague on a number of occasions,

10 but it was necessary. I wish you a safe trip home, and I will now ask the

11 usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now give Defence for Prlic

14 -- for Mr. Prlic the floor. They want to -- or Defence counsel wants to

15 tender some documents into evidence. Please go ahead.

16 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D 00502, and 1D 00504 are the two

17 documents I wish to tender.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Those two exhibits

20 will be therefore be tendered and admitted with today's date and the

21 following references: The first one is 1D 00502, and expectedly, the

22 second one is 1D 00504. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll go back --

24 we'll move into private session.

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22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're back in open session,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we are in open session,

25 the hearing is adjourned, and the next hearing will be held on the date

1 that I've already mentioned, thank you.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.35 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day

4 of June, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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