1 Wednesday, 6 September 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
7 the case number, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Case
9 number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Before I give the floor to Mr. Scott to use up the two hours that
12 remain for him, the registrar forwarded Mr. Karnavas's request to us that
13 concerns preliminary questions put to the witness as an expert witness.
14 We have already orally rejected this request.
15 The Chamber, Mr. Karnavas, is somewhat surprised given that, in
16 spite of our oral rejection of this request, written submissions were
17 provided to the registry. Is there any explanation for this, since you
18 gave this request to registry and we dealt with this request orally last
19 time it was mentioned? The one that was forwarded to the registry is
20 dated the 4th of September, 2006.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not sure I understand, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll repeat what I said. Mr.
23 Karnavas, before the beginning of the examination of the witness, you took
24 the floor and you told us that before the examination you wanted the
25 Chamber to grant you leave to put a series of written questions to the
1 person in question. There were 60 questions in total. The Judges decided
2 otherwise. We decided that it was -- there was no reason to follow such
3 procedure. And I did tell you that in the case of the cross-examination,
4 you had the possibility of putting these 60 questions to the witness. But
5 this morning we have discovered that you provided the registry with this
6 document which was filed as a motion or a written submission.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I can explain. It was -- that's the same
8 submission that I filed in court, Your Honour, and as I understand it,
9 these submissions also have to be filed electronically, so that may be the
10 reason. But it's the same submission. It's nothing in addition to that.
11 I apologise if it's caused any concern.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. Thank
13 you, Mr. Karnavas.
14 Mr. Scott, you have two hours at your disposal. If you take up
15 less time, the Trial Chamber will be grateful.
16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good
18 WITNESS: WILLIAM TOMLJANOVICH [Resumed]
19 Examination by Mr. Scott: [Continued]
20 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, we ended yesterday talking about the HVO
21 Herceg-Bosna, again, structures and processes dealing with the operation
22 of various prisons and camps and we'd already gone through approximately
23 five documents dealing with the establishment of the camps, some of them.
24 Let me go forward with that same topic.
25 After some of the situations and conditions and circumstances in
1 these camps became more widely known, did your work -- did your report
2 include a consideration of what HVO processes and structures were involved
3 in dealing with the camps and prisons at that point?
4 A. Yes, it did. I took a look at their -- the reaction of the HVO
5 organs to these problems, much of which was discussed in the meetings of
6 the HVO HZ HB, amongst other places.
7 Q. Could I next ask you to look at Exhibit P 03673. As soon as you
8 have that, can you tell us what that is, please.
9 A. This is a statement which was forwarded to all media, or released
10 to all media, which is forwarding a message or a written response which
11 Mr. Prlic gave to the Prime Minister of -- or the Deputy Prime Minister of
12 Croatia, Mr. Mate Granic, on the 23rd of July, 1993, which is in response
13 to a letter of Mr. Granic's which -- excuse me. That isn't. Yes, it is
14 in response to Mr. Granic's letter.
15 Q. All right. Are the two principal topics or subjects of this
16 letter the circumstances concerning the detention camps and also the
17 movement of humanitarian convoys?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can I ask you to direct your attention to the bottom part of the
20 first page, starting with the words "The assault by Muslim forces ..." Do
21 you see that?
22 A. Yes. "The assault by Muslim forces on the region around Mostar
23 compelled the armed forces of the HVO and its military police to assume
24 preventive measures against all members of the so-called army of BiH and
25 its active duty and reserve force in the area of combat activities. There
1 were no special detention camps formed for these persons. Instead, the
2 following facilities were used: Premises of the former military college,
3 the nearby military base of the former JNA in Rodoc near Mostar (so-called
4 'Heliodrom'), as well as facilities once used for mass accommodation of
5 JNA soldiers in Dretelj. It is necessary to keep in mind that these
6 persons are all men in the age suitable for military service."
7 Q. All right. Let me stop you there. Going back to the earlier part
8 of that paragraph on the previous page, were you familiar with the
9 circumstances, situation, in early July, 1993, in which large numbers of
10 Muslim men were arrested and detained?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And does that appear to be what is being described here in terms
13 of referring to the preventive measures against all members of the
14 so-called army of BiH?
15 A. That's precisely what's being referred to here, the detention of
16 Muslim males in the Heliodrom and other locations.
17 Q. Let me go back, then, further to the next -- again, back to the
18 second page where you left off. Do you see the passage that starts "On
19 the 22nd of June ..."?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you pick up at that point, please.
22 A. "On the 22nd of June this year, more than 200 persons were
23 released from the 'Heliodrom'. It is necessary to point out that all
24 other persons (women, children and the elderly), who had been temporarily
25 displaced outside of the town for the purpose of securing them from active
1 combat activities (Article 49 of the Geneva Convention on the Protection
2 of Civilians During War), were returned" and here illegible word,
4 Q. Let's stop there.
5 A. End quote.
6 Q. Can you assist the Judges in reference to the circumstances or the
7 time when women, children, and elderly had been held for a time, when that
8 had occurred approximately during this general period of time?
9 A. I believe it would have been early -- I'm not -- actually, I'm not
10 sure exactly of the time. I know that occurred in June, and I believe
11 there were also detentions in early May of 1993 in Mostar itself.
12 Q. Now, before we leave this document, to continue on schedule, can I
13 ask you, although we're talking primarily about camps, since we have this
14 document, if you look at the latter part of that document, on the bottom
15 of that page and continuing on to the next page, does it also touch upon
16 the issue of humanitarian convoys?
17 A. Yes, it does. It makes reference to the Makarska agreement, with
18 is an agreement which had been reached not long before this regarding the
19 free passage of humanitarian aid.
20 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether that was a matter of some
21 international attention as of midsummer of 1993, that is, getting
22 humanitarian aid into the Mostar region?
23 A. Yes, and particularly into the eastern half of Mostar. It was
24 very much a pressing issue for the international community active there.
25 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether any international pressure had
1 been brought on the Republic of Croatia to gain access, humanitarian
2 access to East Mostar?
3 A. Off the top of my head I can't recall if this was done at that
5 Q. Let us go on, please, to Exhibit 35 -- P 03560. Can you tell us
6 what that is, please.
7 A. These are translations of minutes of the 46th session of the HVO
8 HZ HB held on the 19th of July, 1993, and presided by Jadranko Prlic.
9 Q. Can I direct your attention, please, to page 4 under item 7 --
10 beginning at item 7.
11 A. Yes. Would you like me to read out the passage?
12 Q. Yes, please.
13 A. It's an important passage. "After a discussion of the request by
14 the HVO of Capljina municipality to relocate prisoners and a discussion of
15 the status and accommodation conditions of prisoners and persons in
16 isolation, with the aim of improving their accommodation conditions and
17 overcoming the newly arisen situation, unanimous approval was given to
18 adopt the following:
20 "1. Security accommodation conditions, material, and medical
21 support for prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention
22 relevant to the Treatment of Prisoners of War."
23 Q. "Relative."
24 A. And -- oh, sorry.
25 Q. That's okay. Go ahead.
1 A. I think I said "relevant" and not "relative".
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Yeah. Sorry about that.
4 Q. Go ahead.
5 A. Moving on into the next paragraph:
6 "If the existing accommodation conditions are not satisfactory,
7 the head of the department of justice and general administration, in
8 coordination with the Defence Department and the Department of the
9 Interior shall designate new sites and transfer prisoners of war."
10 Next paragraph:
11 "The Defence Department shall be in charge of --," and there is a
12 question as to whether this word is "their", "-- stay at the new sites."
13 Q. All right. And then before putting some additional questions to
14 you about this, on the following page, page 2, a working group to address
15 these matters was formed, including among its members, as stated in this
16 document, Berislav Pusic?
17 A. Yes. Working group to visit Capljina and inspect the conditions
18 of the prisoners in Capljina included Berislav Pusic, Darinko Tadic, who
19 was from the Office of the Displaced Persons and Refugees, and the
20 department head, Zoran Buntic.
21 Q. Now, moving forward from the two documents we've looked at so far,
22 can you give the Judges sort of an overview of what your research showed
23 in terms of what happened then in the wake of these documents in
24 connection with the HVO dealings and handling of matters concerning the
25 camps as of the end of July, 1993?
1 A. Well, these inspections were carried out. There was a meeting, I
2 believe, soon afterwards regarding that and yet more bodies and
3 institutions were created to deal with this situation.
4 Q. Let me next ask you to look at Exhibit P 03565 --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- which you may have looked at previously for other
7 circumstances, but we can look at it again, particularly paragraphs 1 and
9 A. Yes. This is a decision of the HVO HZ HB from the same day as
10 this meeting, from the 19th of July, with the name of Jadranko Prlic at
11 the bottom and his signature, repeating the same decision to form the
12 working group, and the other conclusions which were met in this meeting
13 are reissued here as a decision.
14 Q. All right. And can I direct your attention to paragraph 7 of that
15 document, and can you give the Judges any assistance as to why it was that
16 the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Croatia needs to be
17 informed concerning the entire problem?
18 A. Well, two reasons. One, at this point already Mate Granic had
19 taken an interest in these problems, as we saw from the earlier exhibit,
20 and also because the international community had been putting pressure on
21 the Republic of Croatia over these issues, and it was their problem as
23 Q. During this time period, did people involved with running these
24 prisons continue to make reports about conditions and circumstances that
25 existed at these camps and prisons?
1 A. Yes, quite a few. And for the purposes of my report, I've only
2 cited a few of those reports, and those reports which go to the top level
3 of the HVO -- top levels of the HVO HZ HB.
4 Q. All right. As one example, can I ask you to please go to Exhibit
5 P 04352. And as soon as you have that, sir, can you tell us what it is?
6 A. This is a letter from the director or warden of the Heliodrom
7 camp, Mr. Stanko Bozic, to Mr. Bruno Stojic on the 20th of August, 1993,
8 and he's informing him of the results of a visit of the International
9 Committee of the Red Cross to that particular detention centre.
10 Q. Directing your attention to the last sentence in the second
11 paragraph, will you read that sentence and the three bullet points,
13 A. Yes. "Mr. Franko pointed to the following wrongdoings in
14 violation of the Geneva Conventions:
15 "1. Sending detainees to work.
16 "2. The quality and quantity of foods (they request its
17 improvement); and
18 "3. Bad conditions in solitary cells."
19 Q. Continue on, please.
20 A. Okay. Next paragraph:
21 "Regarding the violations of the Geneva Conventions, Mr. Franko
22 warned and obligated me as the warden to make sure that these wrongdoings
23 are not repeated in the future or we would be reported to the
24 International Tribunal. After the Red Cross's departure, we were not able
25 to remedy these wrongdoings. On the contrary, the number of wounded and
1 killed at the workplace is increasing by the day."
2 Q. All right. Thank you.
3 A. Period, closed quote.
4 Q. And did there continue, then, to be an exchange of information and
5 correspondence among the senior HVO leadership and bodies concerning these
7 A. Yes. This was discussed quite a great deal after this.
8 Q. Could I direct your attention next to Exhibit --
9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I ask a question. Can you tell us, Mr.
10 Tomljanovich, who decided on the fact that prisoners were taken to work?
11 Was this the governor's decision or, as one must assume, reading him,
12 someone else's over whom he had no control?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. That appears to be the case. I didn't go into
14 that sort of detail in the report, and I haven't reviewed any of those
15 records for this report, but I know from what I've seen in the past that
16 quite frequently prisoners were taken out of camps for work at the front
17 lines in opposition to the wishes of the camp director. And there's a
18 great deal of documentation on that.
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A very rapid question that I'd
21 like to put to you. I don't want to interrupt the Prosecution, but it
22 seems important to me.
23 The document you examined has a certain number on it, and this
24 document is a document that follows on the -- after other documents. Have
25 you been able to examine all the documents from this prison? It's a
1 document that follows on another form of correspondence. Is this the only
2 document you saw, or were you able to examine other documents?
3 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that this is not the only document from Mr.
4 Bozic from that year. Whether or not we possess a complete set of his
5 correspondence for that year I just don't know.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my last question: After
7 this letter that was addressed to Mr. Stojic was forwarded, was there a
8 response? Did you find a reply from Mr. Stojic, a response to this
9 letter, which is in fact a letter that calls for a reply?
10 THE WITNESS: No, I did not, which doesn't mean that one did not
11 exist. But I did not see one.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have another
13 question for you.
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, in the same letter we can
15 see that it says that the number of wounded and killed at their place of
16 work increased from day to day when you were involved in your
17 investigations. Did you find out whether they were wounded at work, or
18 was this something that was inflicted on them? Were they wounded as a
19 result of an accident, or were they maltreated? How is it that they were
20 wounded or killed?
21 THE WITNESS: I'm not entirely sure which particular incidents
22 happened in which camp in which particular period of time, although I know
23 that both incidents occurred rather frequently; that prisoners were
24 wounded and killed both while being taken out to work and there were
25 incidents in the camps as well. But as to what would have been going on
1 in the Heliodrom at that particular time, I'm not sure.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.
3 MR. SCOTT: If I might just represent to the Court, the Court, of
4 course, will be hearing a number of witnesses, including victims, people
5 who were held in the camps who were taken out on work details and will
6 tell in much more detail about these matters.
7 Q. If we could then next go, please, to Exhibit P 03663. And as soon
8 as you have that, sir, will you tell us what that is and how, again, it
9 relates to the current topic in your report?
10 A. Yes. These are decisions adopted at a meeting of the -- in the
11 military police administration of the HVO in Ljubuski on the 22nd of July,
12 1993, and the minutes are written up the next day, and signed by officer
13 Zvonko Vidovic regarding this meeting at which the placing of prisoners in
14 camps was addressed.
15 Q. And does it indicate in the first paragraph any senior officials
16 who were involved in this meeting?
17 A. Yes. This meeting included, aside from the chief of the
18 administration, Mr. Coric, all the chiefs of all the departments of the
19 military police administration were there.
20 Q. Now, can I direct your attention, please, to the third paragraph
21 starting with the word "Consequently." Would you read that, please?
22 A. "Consequently, all those persons who have been detained but
23 against whom criminal proceedings have not been initiated (or against whom
24 a criminal report has not been filed) are, according to the chief of the
25 military police administration, unknown to our department. This refers
1 solely to the large number of Muslims who have been brought unselectively
2 to the SVIZ," in brackets the extension of that acronym, "(Central
3 Military Remand Prison) buildings and who have since been forgotten."
4 Q. Does that paragraph go on to indicate that in fact approximately
5 2.000 of these prisoners or detained persons had been interviewed, none of
6 whom were "interesting from the standpoint of crime"?
7 A. Yes. That's exactly what it says.
8 Q. And was there anything further indicated in this document as to
9 whether the military police were responsible for the handling of these
11 A. Further down in the same page, at the very bottom they state,
12 according to the military police who met there, apparently, that it was
13 the duty of the Department of Justice to appoint a warden and to make all
14 the decisions in regard to these detainees.
15 Q. Let me ask you to go next to Exhibit P 04756. Can you tell us --
16 sorry. Can you tell us what that is, please?
17 A. This is the minutes of a meeting held on the 2nd of September,
18 1993, at 9.00 in the morning. And in English it's called a meeting of the
19 heads of the Defence Department, and I'm not positive, but I believe this
20 is what, in B/C/S, they would call a kolidzija or a collegium of the top
21 of a department.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. Which would be the department head and his assistants.
24 Q. Apart from the department head and his assistants, does this
25 indicate that the deputy chief of the HVO of the Main Staff also attended?
1 A. Yes. In the place of the commander of the HVO Main Staff.
2 Q. And can you tell the Judges, as of September -- early September,
3 1993, who was the Deputy Chief of the Main Staff?
4 A. I'm not sure if at that point it was Tole. He was later. Oh, no,
5 it would have been Mr. -- at this point it would have been Mr. Petkovic, I
7 Q. Now --
8 A. Although I'm not positive, because the terminology changes, or
9 it's difficult to follow.
10 Q. And, in fact, just in passing, that very confusion is discussed in
11 this document on pages 2 and 3 of the --
12 A. Oh, yes, of course.
13 Q. We're not going to spend our time on that now, given --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- the time.
16 A. Yes, of course, under number item 1, I'm sorry, Deputy Head of
17 Staff was Mr. Matic.
18 Q. All right. Let me direct your attention particularly to item
19 number 3 on page 4. And does this involve a report by the military police
20 administration and by Mr. Coric?
21 A. Yes, it does. It states in the middle of the -- well, in the
22 beginning of the second paragraph, that Mr. Coric put forward some of the
23 problems which the military police had been encountering. And at the
24 bottom, it says -- well, in the next paragraph --
25 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment, sir. Before you get to that,
1 let's go back up. Does it say, "Following Coric's contribution, Head,
2 Stojic, made the following propose"?
3 A. Yes. And the proposals he made was: "All changes to be made with
4 respect to the organisation in all different services must be submitted by
5 the next board meeting."
6 Q. And then the next line?
7 A. Then the next line is Mr. Coric mentioning some of the problems of
8 the military police.
9 Q. All right. Could I ask you, then, to skip the rest of that
10 paragraph and go to the portion starting with "Military prisons ..."
11 A. "Military prisons are another example of very bad work. The head
12 took the floor and said: --" Closed quote for a second. I should explain
13 that the head of the department at this point would be Mr. Stojic.
14 Back to the quote, and it's in quotation marks in the document:
15 "My opinion is that we have two military prisons, Heliodrom and
16 the military prison at Ljubuski. As for the other places where detainees
17 are held (Gabela and Dretelj), I do not consider them as military
18 facilities and refuse to personally endorse the work of these
19 institutions." Period, close the quotation marks in the original and
20 close quotation.
21 Q. Following that statement by Mr. Stojic, did the Assistant Minister
22 for Security, Mr. Lucic, make a response to that?
23 A. Yes, he does. Mr. Lucic then responds at the beginning of the
24 next page, and this is also in quotes:
25 "I believe that we cannot just pass over the problem of the Gabela
1 and Dretelj prisons like that. That can cause us a lot of harm. We must
2 say precisely who is behind these prisons, who is doing that, and what
3 measures we can take with respect to that."
4 Q. And following that discussion, can you just, in the interests of
5 time, take us to -- was a conclusion then reached directing some further
6 action to be taken?
7 A. Yes. The conclusion reads:
8 "The SIS, the Military Police Administration, and the Health
9 Sector shall draft separate reports on the work of Dretelj and Gabela
10 prisons and submit them to the Head of the Defence Department by
11 Wednesday, 8 September 1993."
12 Q. And I ask you, please, next to go to Exhibit P 03995.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. You've
14 just broached an interesting subject, and I'd like to get some specifics
16 On the basis of the document that you've just read out and that
17 you mention in your report as well, it appears that there are two types of
18 prisons - military prisons and civilian prisons. The military prisons are
19 Heliodrom and Ljubuski, and on the other hand, the more civilian prisons
20 are Gabela and Dretelj.
21 On the basis of what Mr. Coric says, he does not want to assume
22 responsibility for the civilian prisons, if we can call them that, rather
23 than the military ones.
24 Now, if that is the case, your studies and your report, do they
25 allow you to say who was in charge of Gabela and Dretelj? Under whose
1 authority did they come if it was not under the authority of Mr. Coric?
2 Who was it then?
3 Allow the witness to answer first.
4 THE WITNESS: First of all, I believe Mr. Coric first mentioned
5 that military prisons were an example of bad work. Following that, Mr.
6 Stojic voiced the opinion that only two of the prisons, the Heliodrom and
7 Ljubuski - and he says in his opinion - were military, and the other two
8 he did not consider to be military.
9 Now, this is Mr. Stojic's opinion of the situation at this time,
10 although as we'll see elsewhere in these documents, the persons involved
11 can't necessarily agree as to who's responsible for what.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the transcript, in the
13 translation it says Stojic, but in the document is it Coric or Stojic?
14 THE WITNESS: Let me just take a look quickly at the original.
15 Yes, here we are. Now, in the original document, this appears at page 3.
16 And I should note as well that the original document we have here, the
17 pages were stamped out of order, but it's not a problem because there were
18 page numbers at the top and you can reconstruct the correct order.
19 Yes, there we are. If we go up to underneath the underlined
20 section, it says that Mr. Coric is talking about the various problems of
21 the military police, and Mr. Coric goes -- his speaking goes all the way
22 down to the next paragraph, where he says there's also very poor work in
23 the military prisons. And then the next thing that is said is that the
24 floor is given -- the head of the department said -- or the floor was
25 given to the head of the department, who said, and the quote which follows
1 beginning with "I consider that we only have two military prisons" is the
2 quote from Mr. Stojic.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So who says "In my opinion," is
5 it Coric or Stojic? "In my opinion," who says that?
6 THE WITNESS: That would be Mr. Stojic.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may just check if I understand correctly.
9 What then happens, it seems, is that Mr. Lucic said, "Watch it, hold it,
10 we cannot leave this aside." And the fact that then reports are requested
11 for Stojic I interpret as him having, to some extent, at least
12 provisionally changed his mind and showing -- to be showing a preparedness
13 to know better about Gabela and Dretelj also.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe that's absolutely correct; that they
15 decided in the end to look into these things, despite the initial opinion
16 voiced by Mr. Stojic, because of the misgivings of Mr. Lucic, who was the
17 Assistant Department Head for Security at that time.
18 MR. SCOTT:
19 Q. All right. If we can then go to Exhibit P 03995, continuing with
20 Mr. Stojic. Can you tell us what that document is?
21 A. This document -- I'm looking at the same one, I'm not sure. No,
22 I'm not looking -- I'm looking at a different translation, but I believe
23 it's the same document.
24 This --
25 Q. Well, if you look, please -- if you have any doubt, look at what's
1 on the screen.
2 A. I'm going to look at the screen, yes. Thank you. It's a Defence
3 Department order, and I believe if I look at the bottom if I'm looking at
4 the same translation, from Mr. Bruno Stojic. Yes, this is the same
5 document, just a different numbered translation.
6 Mr. Stojic issues an order to bring more control and order into
7 the detention facilities, and that -- he orders that as at the 10th of
8 August, and -- shall I read this out?
9 Q. Yes, under "Order."
10 A. "I hereby order: As of the 10th of August, 1993, a commission
11 authorised by the Department of Defence is to take charge of all detention
12 units and prisons in which prisoners of war and military detainees are
13 held. It will be composed of the following:
14 "1. Berislav Pusic - chief of the offices for exchanges,
16 Q. I'm going to stop you there, Mr. Tomljanovich, because of time.
17 The other names the Judges will be able to see, of course.
18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But I have a question. We come here upon a term
19 which we have, I think, encountered before, the meaning of which to me is
20 not quite clear, and that is "military detainees." Persons detained by
21 the military, whatever, or military persons in detention who are not POWs,
22 or what does it mean?
23 THE WITNESS: I would assume that it does not mean prisoners of
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's for sure.
1 THE WITNESS: Since in this context they're separated as a
2 separate category from prisoners of war. My assumption, although it's not
3 defined here, is that these are detainees being kept by the military, most
4 likely -- and most of them probably being men of military age who weren't
5 necessarily military.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But could that not mean as well
7 military detainees of the HVO?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, it could. And as a matter of fact, now that
9 you mention it, they did keep -- in all of the detention centres I believe
10 there were still their own prisoners as well.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is that the question that
12 Counsel Nozica wanted to ask?
13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour,
14 precisely, because that's what it says in the Croatian version, prisoners
15 of wars and military detainees. And you intervened quite rightly, Your
16 Honour, and said that the military detainees were in fact HVO members who
17 may be in detention because they committed some crimes or misdemeanors.
18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Although my colleague said that we needn't read the other names, but I do
20 think that something should be said about those names, all the more so
21 that some of the names are on the Prosecutor's list of witnesses for
23 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I'm not going to -- sorry. I'm not
24 going to use the two hours that I have to discuss that. If the Court
25 wants to ask that, you certainly can, or if counsel wants to ask it during
1 cross-examination, he can. But I'd like to use my time as wisely as
3 Q. After listing the names of this working group, sir, can you
4 indicate what the -- what instructions were given to this group, what it
5 is they were supposed to do?
6 A. On the second page it states that they're authorised and have the
7 duty to make a list of all detained persons, classify them in categories,
8 and -- and I'll quote directly from here on: "Place under its control all
9 of the detention units or prisons and resolve the matters of functioning
10 and securing, regulate the questions of release from prison, exchange of
11 prisoners, et cetera." Well, no, "et cetera," that's a period for the
12 abbreviation, I'm sorry. "And all other important questions related to
13 the work and functioning of detention units and prisons."
14 Q. Did Mr. Stojic --
15 A. Period, end of quote.
16 Q. Did Mr. Stojic then indicate who it was who was responsible for
17 making sure this area was carried out -- excuse me, these matter, these
18 directions were carried out?
19 A. Well, he instructs wardens or commanders of detention units and
20 prisons to follow the instructions and orders of this committee and to
21 work according to the structure they prescribe.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just draw attention to a lack of clarity in
23 terminology, because the document speaks of commission, commission,
24 commission, and then suddenly we find the term "command." Is there a
25 difference also in the B/C/S, and how is it to be explained?
1 THE WITNESS: Where is it you see the word "command"?
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: In the last paragraph before "forwarded to." It
3 says: "They must carry out the command's instruction." I read this
4 "command" as referring to the commission, in fact. And is it called
5 command suddenly because it has power to give orders or --
6 THE WITNESS: Well, let me see what it says in the Croatian. In
7 Croatian, it -- they use the word "komisija" consistently, that the
8 directors and commanders of detention units and prisons are duty-bound to
9 carry out the orders of the commission or to work under the scheme set
10 forward by the commission. So "commission" is used quite consistently in
11 the original.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: With due respect I contradict. I find the word
13 "komisija" once in this last paragraph, at the end. And at the end of
14 the English text I also find the word "commission". This is the line
15 above. It must be a different -- "napitusa" -- no, it's also "komisija".
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's also consistent in the original.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you're an expert on HVO
18 structures. Now we're dealing with structures here. We're dealing with
19 the structures of the prison, in fact. And this document establishes a
20 commission composed of a number of members, and according to the document,
21 it seems that this commission exerts control over the detention facility.
22 And the last paragraph seems to indicate that this commission issues
23 commands, instructions, orders to the commanders of the prison.
24 Now, if we look at structure here, if we look at the structure,
25 the institution, isn't there an ad hoc commission in charge of controlling
1 what is happening in the prisons?
2 THE WITNESS: Do you mean prior to this order or as a result of
3 this order?
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Afterwards, as a result.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, and it would be this commission. Mr. Stojic is
6 authorising them to -- he's transferring these powers to this commission.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that Mr. Stojic
8 is transferring his powers to this commission, but the director or warden
9 of the prison, is he placed under the control of the commission? I'd like
10 to hear from the expert what he thinks.
11 THE WITNESS: I suspect, given the wording of the very final
12 paragraph, that it was Mr. Stojic's intention that the commission -- that
13 the various directors of the various detention facilities follow the
14 orders and instructions of this commission. Now, that doesn't necessarily
15 mean that they're subordinate to them in the hierarchical structure, but
16 he's giving them the authority to give orders to and establish new
17 structures to this particular commission, and their authority has -- in
18 those areas which he outlines, it has to be respected by -- their
19 authority has to be respected by the various commanders.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Judges will have
21 an opportunity of going back to that question in due course.
22 Mr. Scott.
23 MR. SCOTT:
24 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, can you tell the Judges, during this period of
25 time, as of August and early September of 1993, did you find anyone, any
1 organisation or person within the HVO structure, who was willing to take
2 responsibility for what was happening at these camps?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Can we go next to Exhibit P 04841.
5 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, before Mr. Scott does that, the last --
6 the last question he put to the witness is one that clearly calls for a
7 legal conclusion on the part of the witness which he's not qualified to
8 give, and it's -- it's simply not a proper question to put somebody -- to
9 somebody who's simply analysing documents, Your Honour, to put -- the
10 Court is quite capable of reading these documents and drawing its own
11 legal conclusions, and I would ask that the question and answer be
12 stricken from the record.
13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'll rephrase the question if that's --
14 if that's necessary. I believe that he can, in fact, what Mr. -- excuse
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges saw the question.
17 They saw Mr. Murphy's intervention. So we will take note of that.
18 MR. SCOTT: Let me rephrase the question, in light of Mr. Murphy's
20 Q. Sir, in your review of the documentation, did you come across any
21 senior HVO official or body which was -- who stood up -- of which stood up
22 and took responsibility for what was happening in these camps at that
23 time? If you remember such a document --
24 A. Yeah. No one takes full responsibility. People undertake actions
25 to do something about the situation, but no one says explicitly "The full
1 responsibility is ours," as far as I can remember.
2 Q. With that in mind, please, can we then go to P 04841.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And tell us, first of all, what that is.
5 A. These are the minutes of a working meeting of the -- well, now
6 they're starting to call it the cabinet of the HR HB, or the HR HB.
7 Q. What's the date?
8 A. 6 September 1993.
9 Q. Both Mr. Prlic and Mr. Stojic are at this meeting?
10 A. Mr. Prlic and Mr. Stojic are both at this meeting.
11 Q. All right. Would you go to the bottom of page 1 under what says
12 "Ad.", A-d period, "1.1" and reads what follows?
13 A. Yes. "To 1. On the basis of verbal reports and insights gained
14 into the manner of executing punishments and the conditions of detention
15 of persons captured as active-duty and reserve enemy forces and persons
16 preparing an armed rebellion, the situation was deemed unsatisfactory --"
17 or sorry, "declared unsatisfactory and harmful to the reputation and
18 interests of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna."
19 Shall I continue?
20 Q. Please.
21 A. Next paragraph:
22 "It was also concluded that the responsibility for the present
23 situation does not lie with the HVO of the HZ HB (Government of the HR
24 HB). However, in order to avoid the situation being used in ways that are
25 adverse to the political and other interests of the HR HB, valid
1 principles of International Law of War and International Humanitarian Law
2 need to be observed in executing punishments and implementing other
4 Q. All right. Now, does the document then go on to reach certain
5 conclusions, a list of, I believe, three conclusions, as to what should be
6 done or what should follow from this meeting?
7 A. Yes, it does, and specific persons are tasked with specific
9 Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you to go through all of them,
10 but if I can ask you to look at one example, to point number 3.
11 A. Yes. Shall I read the --
12 Q. Yes, please.
13 A. "3. In order to improve the conditions of accommodation and diet
14 of detainees, the Office for Expelled Persons, Refugees and Displaced
15 Persons is tasked to ensure the necessary quantities of food, personal
16 hygiene items, and, if possible, equipment and material needed for
17 accommodation (blankets, mats, et cetera)."
18 Q. Can I next ask you to look at P 05104.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know that time is precious,
20 but I want to go back to this document. I want to have another look at
21 the paragraph before the conclusion "At the same time ..." Could you read
22 out that paragraph, the one that you haven't read out yet, but please read
23 it out because it seems to be of interest and in the interests of justice.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 "At the same time, distinction needs to be made between penal and
1 correctional organisations for the detention of persons subject to
2 criminal proceedings or persons against whom a final judgement has been
3 pronounced (military and civilian prisons), and centres for the detention
4 of prisoners of war."
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have read out
6 this paragraph. You have examined it. You have studied it. As an expert
7 of such structures, what sort of conclusion did you arrive at?
8 THE WITNESS: The conclusion I arrived at was, reading this, also
9 following what we saw earlier with the meeting of the kolidzija of the
10 Department of Defence, that it wasn't clear to the people in the areas of
11 the highest responsibility -- or there wasn't a clear distinction made,
12 despite the fact there should have been according to laws, there was not a
13 clear distinction made between facilities which were penal or correctional
14 facilities in which persons are kept for criminal reasons and other
15 persons, prisoners of war. So they were detaining prisoners of war and --
16 and prisoners, criminal prisoners, in the same prisons.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Does this alternative not show that they forget
18 about the whole category, namely, what we had before, the military
19 detainees? They are neither/nor. It seems to be a document which is not
20 based on full information of the local situation and categories.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, absolutely. And if we go to a later
22 document, the meetings which I cite in December of 1993, still then, over
23 three months later, there's still a great deal of confusion as to who is
24 actually in the detention centres.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: In one of the documents we've looked at before,
1 amongst other things, somebody was charged with drawing a list of all
2 detainees. Was that list actually drawn? Did you come upon it in your
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, there were a number of lists. The one I know
5 I've seen personally, because I found that one in the archive, I believe
6 someone had drawn up lists of all the prisoners in Dretelj around this
7 time; I believe there's a lists of prisoners in Heliodrom I've seen around
8 this time, listed by hangar; and I believe then again in December, when
9 these meetings are held which I cite in my report, there's more lists of
10 prisoners which are being made, although I'm not sure whether I've seen
11 the lists that were made in December.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When compiling your report, did
13 you examine the legal situation that concerned civilian prisoners with
14 respect to the penal code, the Criminal Code of Herceg-Bosna? Is this an
15 issue you examined? Is this a question you posed, or is it an issue you
16 didn't deal with?
17 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't deal with it other than that I'd seen
18 quite a bit of information that persons had been detained without charges
19 being filed. But that's not a question I deliberately went out and
20 gathered information on.
21 I should add there that with the camps, there's a great deal of
22 documentation, and I very deliberately limited what I looked at by level
23 of documentation, because otherwise it would be just too large of a task.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Mr. Scott.
1 MR. SCOTT:
2 Q. If we can look briefly, then, at Exhibit P 05104. And if you have
3 that, can you please tell us what it is?
4 A. This is an order of Mate Boban, signed and stamped on the 15th of
5 September, 1993, which was forwarded to the Defence Department and the
6 Main Staff of the HR HB armed forces.
7 Q. In light of the current topic, if I could just direct your
8 attention to item number -- paragraph number 3 on the second page of the
9 English translation. Does Mr. Boban there address, again, the issue of
10 the detention of prisoners and others and conditions of such detention?
11 A. Yes. Both in -- in the second part of the order, Mr. Boban orders
12 the military to carry out -- observe the standards of international
13 humanitarian law when in combat, and in section 3, he orders that in those
14 areas in which the conditions required by international law are not met,
15 they should immediately be met.
16 Q. Could we go to Exhibit P 05503.
18 JUDGE PRANDLER: Let me ask you, Mr. Witness, to tell me, since in
19 the previous chapter I notice -- it disappeared, by I saw there a
20 particular paragraph which spoke about the necessity that the observers of
21 the International Red Cross are to be allowed to visit the camps. And now
22 I cannot in a way quote it because I do not have it here, but I believe it
23 was the same thing. And now I would like to ask you if you have seen any
24 other document in which reference was made to the possibility or kind of
25 not giving the chance to the observers of the ICRC to visit the camps.
1 That is my question. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: The issue of accessibility to camps, I just know
3 from my previous work and from other trials that that was a very burning
4 issue which was discussed quite a bit in the summer and fall of 1993.
5 Now, as to the specifics of who was allowed to visit and exactly
6 when, that's something I just didn't look at documents for in making this
7 report. Other than the ones which we've just cited regarding the visit in
8 August of 1993 to the Heliodrom.
9 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you very much.
10 MR. SCOTT:
11 Q. If we could then look, please, at P 05503. And can you tell us
12 what that is, please?
13 A. This is a report of a three-member commission which was part of
14 the health care sector of the Defence Department of the HVO reporting on
15 the sanitary conditions and medical conditions in the Heliodrom on the
16 30th of September, 1993.
17 Q. And can we see there eight conclusions on the second page of the
18 English translation at least?
19 A. Yes, we can.
20 Q. And do those observations indicate - again, we don't have time to
21 go through each one - a number deficiencies?
22 A. Yes, quite a number, many of which were already described in a
23 previous exhibit. And this also adds more specifics as to the sanitary
24 situation and the health situation.
25 Q. And if I can direct your attention to the last page of the
1 document. Can you just indicate a number of the people who received this
2 or --
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. -- or to whom this report was directed?
5 A. Yeah. This report was directed - and you'll need to scroll down a
6 little bit more - first of all, to Mate Boban, then to Bruno Stojic, and
7 then also to the General -- or Brigadier Zarko Tole. I believe that's
8 Tole and not Tolo. And then the head of the health sector, Mr. Bagaric.
9 And here it says Mr. Berko Pusic, although sometimes his first name is
10 called Berislav and sometimes it's Berko. And then to the commander of
11 the Heliodrom and then to the chief of the 3rd Brigade's medical service.
12 Q. Could I ask you next to go to Exhibit P 05812. Can you tell us
13 what that is?
14 A. Is it 5812 or 5821?
15 Q. This is 5812.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. If you don't have it, please direct your attention to the --
18 A. No, I do. I just have it mislabelled. Yes.
19 This letter is from the commander of the Heliodrom prison, Stanko
20 Bozic, to Mr. Stojic and forwarded to Zarko Tole, as well as Bruno Stojic.
21 Q. Dated?
22 A. Dated the 11th of October, 1993.
23 Q. Now, please direct your attention particularly to the opening
24 paragraph, first of all. In stating his concerns, does Mr. Bozic indicate
25 the time period encompassed by the problems he's raising?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What does it say?
3 A. He says that these difficulties and problems have -- regard the
4 persons who have been brought in since the 30th of June, 1993, brought in
5 as detainees since the 30th of June, 1993.
6 Q. And does Mr. -- the Heliodrom warden, Mr. Bozic, indicate he's
7 listing all of the problems or only the most serious problems?
8 A. Well, he says that he's only highlighting the ones that are top
9 priority right at the moment, so only the very most important problems, of
10 which there are eight.
11 Q. One, number 1, and I'm not going to go in detail except to direct
12 some of your attention to some of the questions put by the Judges earlier,
13 but is item 1 the use of detainees for work?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. And could you go to number 2?
16 A. Number 2 or 1(B)?
17 Q. Number 2?
18 A. Number 2 is the severe wounding and other sufferings of the
19 detainees. And, again, further down it mentions the same visits of the
20 International Red Cross back on the 10th, 11th and 12th of August, 1993,
21 in this regard.
22 Q. At the end of the letter, does Mr. Bozic give any indication,
23 again, whether he as commander of the prison, if you will, or the warden
24 is able to still, by now the middle of the October, 1993, is he able to
25 solve these problems?
1 A. No. And, as a matter of fact, his last sentence in the letter
3 "As I am not able to solve these problems alone, I appeal to you
4 to use your influence for these problems to be solved."
5 Q. May I next ask you, please, to go to Exhibit P 07064. And can you
6 tell us what that is when you have it, please.
7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
10 just wanted to say that I'm afraid that the author of this document is on
11 the list of the Prosecution's witnesses. So Mr. Tomljanovich is talking
12 about this document rather than the author. You have instructed us and
13 said that documents should be presented through the authors. I don't
14 object to having this document shown to Mr. Tomljanovich, but I think we
15 should exclude any other form of interpretation.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's quite clear for the
17 Chamber that when the witness reads out a paragraph, he's only reading out
18 something that someone else drafted. He didn't draft it, so he is not
19 expressing his opinion.
20 Mr. Scott, with regard to this document on the screen.
21 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
22 Q. Please, can you tell us what that is, Mr. Tomljanovich?
23 A. Yes. I don't have it in front of me, but I remember this one
24 fairly well. This is a document from Mr. Biskic, who had just been made,
25 fairly recently, assistant head -- or Assistant Minister of Defence of the
1 HR HB. And this is a letter of the 7th of December, 1993, written to the
2 Minister of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Gojko Susak, regarding
3 the prisoners of war and the problems with prisoners in Herceg-Bosna.
4 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment. Do you have any more
5 information on Mr. Biskic's background and where he had come from prior to
6 being named an Assistant Minister of Defence in the HVO?
7 A. I know that he was an officer of the Croatian army, the HV,
8 although I'm not -- I don't remember right now exactly in what capacity.
9 Q. And do you know why he was reporting -- giving this report to the
10 Minister of Defence of the Republic of Croatia?
11 A. Presumably the Minister of Defence of the Republic of Croatia was
12 interested in seeing -- understanding the situation with the problems of
13 prisoners of war in Herceg-Bosna because it had become the problem of the
14 Republic of Croatia because of international pressure.
15 Q. All right. Again, because of time, does Mr. Biskic then in the
16 opening paragraph say that, having taken up his duties, he was able to
17 immediately observe problems with the prisoner of war "shelters and
18 collections centres"?
19 A. Yes. And describes these problems as very serious.
20 Q. Does he indicate in the letter the organisation or part of the
21 HVO, based on his observations, who were responsible or had jurisdiction
22 over the detention facilities?
23 A. Yes. He makes the observation - I don't have it in front of me -
24 but he makes the observation, I believe, that the Defence Department or
25 Defence Ministry has been given responsibility, although he does not think
1 that should have -- its overall responsibility, although he does not think
2 that should have been the case.
3 Q. Can we scroll down on the document, please.
4 Is that indicated in the last paragraph on that --
5 A. Yes. And I should make clear here that what we see in the last
6 paragraph, where it says "MO HR HB", that's the Ministry of Defence.
7 That's the Croatian -- sorry.
8 Q. At the top of the next page, is there a heading called "Main
10 A. Yes, there is.
11 Q. And then does he go on at the bottom of that page, carrying over
12 to the last page of his letter, to propose a number of actions or steps?
13 A. Yes, he does.
14 Q. I direct your attention particularly to point number 4. Can you
15 tell the Judges -- or read that to the Judges.
16 A. I'll read that. Point number 4?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. "From the highest level of the RH ..."
19 Q. "RH" being whom?
20 A. The RH being the Republic of Croatia. "... influence HR HB
21 institutions to make them resolve the problem of detained persons as soon
22 as possible in order to change the world's opinion of us, because
23 representatives of the International Red Cross and the UN know the
24 situation in the collection centres and the KRZ very well."
25 Q. Can I ask you to look at the attachment to that document, which is
1 at --
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I -- I have a question.
3 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It strikes me that in -- unless I'm in error, in
5 the documents you have shown us and the passages that have been pointed
6 out to us, the problem of detainees was always regarded as being a problem
7 because it seemed to damage, on the international level, the reputation of
8 the HVO or later the HR HB. Now, did you come upon any documents where
9 the concern was of a humanitarian motivation, someone showing some kind of
10 concern for the personal fate of the persons concerned?
11 THE WITNESS: Not in any of the documents I reviewed for this
12 report. However, in open-source documents and press releases, that's
13 frequently stated as a reason for intending to close the camps in the
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
16 MR. SCOTT:
17 Q. If I could ask you to look at the attachment. One of the Judges
18 earlier had a question about whether lists were prepared. Attached to
19 this particular document is something titled "List of Detainees from the
20 Heliodrom who Live in Mixed Marriages," which then goes on to list
21 approximately 66 detained persons.
22 From your research, sir, were you able to -- can you provide the
23 Judges any assistance into the purpose of this list or the significance of
24 listing only those detainees who lived in mixed marriages?
25 A. Generally speaking, persons who were to be released were sent
1 either to territory controlled by the ABiH, sent to third countries via
2 the Republic of Croatia, or allowed to stay in Herceg-Bosna. And persons
3 of mixed marriages were a category which I believe, in general, were
4 people allowed to stay, although I don't know anything about the fate of
5 these particular people.
6 Q. Could I ask you next to go to P 07096.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. On the list that
8 you have before you, we can see the names of the men detained. They are
9 to the left. And we have the dates of birth, and to the right we have the
10 names of their wives, because Mr. Jusic Emir seems to be married to Sremer
11 Kornelija, who is a Croat.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there's "H" and then we have
14 "S" for Serbs. What does "H" represent?
15 THE WITNESS: That would be Croats, because it would be "Hrvati"
16 or "Hrvatica" , in the original Croatian.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And the "S" means
18 the persons.
19 THE WITNESS: Srbi.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.
21 MR. SCOTT:
22 Q. If we can please go, then, to Exhibit P 07096, and tell us what
23 that is, the significance of that document in your report.
24 A. Yes. Very quickly, this is an order or a decision of Mate Boban,
25 signed on the 10th of December, 1993, to order the immediate closing of
1 all detention centres in HR HB unilaterally and to implement this decision
2 no later than the 17th of December, 1993.
3 Q. And if we can then go back -- we looked at this yesterday, but if
4 we can then look briefly again at P 07668. If you have that, can you
5 remind us what that is?
6 A. I don't believe I have a copy of that. Here we go. Yes. This
7 is, once again, the order or the decision of Mr. Prlic to nullify his
8 earlier decision to open Gabela camp and to appoint its director.
9 Q. And the date of this decision closing the Gabela camp is?
10 A. It's December. If we could scroll down. Yes, 22nd of December,
12 Q. And the final two documents on the topic of camps. Could you
13 look, please, at P 07124.
14 And what is that?
15 A. This is the minutes of a meeting for a working group for
16 implementing Mr. Boban's order, which we just saw a minute ago, or his
17 decision, and they're meeting on the 11th of December, 1993, in Posusje,
18 under the chair of Colonel Marijan Biskic, an order to enact this order to
19 close the camps.
20 Q. Now, by this date in December, the Minister of Defence is listed
21 as Mr. Perica Jukic.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Had Mr. Stojic stopped being the Minister of Defence by that time?
24 A. Yes, he had. In the HR HB, Mr. Perica Jukic, for a few months
25 only, was the Minister of Defence of the HR HB.
1 Q. In terms of other persons present at the meeting, did they include
2 the wardens of the Ljubuski, Gabela, and Heliodrom camps?
3 A. Yes, they do. As well as military prosecutors.
4 Q. And is it also -- do the list of attendees also include Mr.
5 Berislav Pusic, towards the end of the list?
6 A. Yes, it does. As well as dignitaries from -- at least one
7 dignitary from the republic of -- oh, I'm sorry. Forget I said that.
8 Q. Directing your attention to page number 3 of the report, or the
9 minutes. Excuse me. Could I direct your attention to the second
10 paragraph and --
11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: Your Honour.
12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I see that Mr. Ibrisimovic is on his
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Ibrisimovic.
15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My
16 objection is this: Since Mr. Scott mentioned all the functions of the
17 persons here but he seems to have skipped Mr. Pusic, he did not -- was not
18 present as president of the commission but, when we look at the document
19 3995, I think, the document we saw a moment ago, was the president of the
21 MR. SCOTT: That's correct, Your Honour. The documentation will
22 show, and I would think there would be no dispute, that Mr. Pusic was
23 wearing a number of hats during this time period.
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Microphone not activated].
25 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But let's be precise
2 here. At that meeting on the 30th of December, 1993, Mr. Pusic was there,
3 and I see him written down as head or president of the prisoners of war
4 exchange office.
5 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
6 Q. And if I can direct your attention to the second paragraph on page
7 3 in reference to, in fact, Mr. Pusic. Could you read that paragraph to
8 us, please.
9 A. Yes. "After Colonel Biskic's introductory remark, Mr. Berislav
10 Pusic took the floor and informed those present that at this moment in the
11 HR HB there are detention centres operating in Capljina, Gabela, Mostar,
12 Heliodrom, Tomislavgrad, in the town itself and in Sujica, Livno, Prozor
13 and Ljubuski. He said at this point he did not have a precise figure,
14 because until now detainees were constantly being taken away to work,
15 mostly on the preparation of the front line."
16 Q. And if we could --
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: There is -- excuse me, please. There is one
18 mention I don't understand. "In the town itself," what does that refer
19 to? Can you explain?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's in regard to Tomislavgrad, which is a
21 town and a municipality. So there was a camp in the town of Tomislavgrad
22 and also in Sujica, which is a town, I think, in the municipality of
23 Tomislavgrad, north of Tomislavgrad. So there were two camps in the
24 municipality; one was in the seat of the municipality; one was in this
25 smaller town, Sujica.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. But we have to
2 break there. We've been working for more than an hour and a half. It's
3 10 to 4.00. We'll reconvene at 10 past 4.00.
4 Mr. Scott, you've roughly used an hour and a half so far. How
5 much more time do you need? Because theoretically you have just 30
6 minutes left.
7 MR. SCOTT: Our records, Your Honour, which I understand confirm
8 or are consistent with the registry that so far I have used 57 minutes, so
9 I have approximately one hour left.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll reconvene at
12 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed, but the
15 Judges have a question to ask the witness before that.
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Tomljanovich, I return to the order Mate
17 Boban gave on December 10th that all prisoners be released by December
18 17th. We have then seen an order signed by Mr. Prlic on the 23rd, more or
19 less but certainly after the 17th, concerning the closure of Gabela. Can
20 you tell the Bench how the order given by Mate Boban was actually
22 THE WITNESS: Well, in large part, the order was implemented
23 through these two meetings which we're introducing right now where all of
24 these matters were discussed. It was also implemented through the
25 decision closing Gabela.
1 Now, as far as when or how Mr. Boban's order was received by Mr.
2 Prlic, that I don't know because we don't have that documentation.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Were all prisoners actually released by December
5 THE WITNESS: No, I believe not.
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And the last question: Was Mate Boban competent
7 to order such release according to the HR HB constitution?
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, there was no constitution. I just
9 want to make sure that's very, very clear. There is no constitution.
10 There is no state. There maybe something else, but there's no
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: When you say there is no state, that's part of
13 your pleading, of course.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour, no. There's no constitution. If
15 there is a constitution and if the Trial Chamber believes there is a
16 constitution, I would like to see it. But there's no constitution.
17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm referring to the document that organises the
19 MR. KARNAVAS: If that's the Trial Chamber's position at this
20 point in time --
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm asking a question. I'm not stating a
22 position, Mr. Karnavas. And I think the witness can answer if I reduce it
23 to asking: Was Mate Boban legally competent to pass such an order?
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, Your Honour, but the moment that
25 you're calling it a quasi-statelet it would appear to me --
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I've withdrawn that.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm asking if Mate Boban was competent to pass
4 such an order.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honour, that's -- that's a legal
6 question. I think if you read his powers as commander-in-chief broadly
7 and his authority over the Department of Defence, he would be, although I
8 imagine you could make an argument that he would not have been. But I
9 really don't know, according to the laws of the HR HB at the time, or
10 according to the various basic decisions.
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question.
13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, in order to complete the
14 question raised by Judge Trechsel with respect to the closing of the
15 prisons, you explained to us the different categories of the detainees
16 that were in those prisons, and we took note that there were prisoners of
17 war as detainees and military detainees.
18 Now, when the order came to close all the prisons, what was the
19 situation, the juridical, the legal situation with respect to the military
20 detainees who had committed offences? What happened to them?
21 Were they set free or were measures taken to place them in detention in
22 other prisons, for example?
23 THE WITNESS: Although that's something I haven't looked at in
24 this report, I know there was, generally speaking, the intention at this
25 time to raise charges against anyone who was intended to be kept in
1 detention. I also know that, just from looking through the archives and
2 finding documents, charges were raised quite frequently by local
3 prosecutors against various persons who were in detention. But I don't
4 know if everyone who was still in detention had charges filed against
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This decision by Mate Boban that
7 you pointed out, did you look at the preamble and the motives for the
8 decision that was taken? How do you interpret, you as an expert in the
9 structure of the Herceg-Bosna, how do you explain the fact that he's going
10 to motivate that by referring to the fact that peace can only exist
11 through freedom? Does that mean that freedom means liberating all the
12 prisoners, setting them free?
13 THE WITNESS: That's certainly the implication given what order --
14 or what the decision is, yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Perhaps during the
16 cross-examination we'll come back to that at some point.
17 Mr. Scott.
18 MR. SCOTT:
19 Q. Well, on that point, sir, the preamble if you will, as the
20 President calls it, to Boban's order, can you tell the Judges whether you
21 have any information whether that language was simply meant for
22 international public consumption?
23 A. Well, this was certainly a public document, I would imagine, so I
24 would imagine this wording was. And it's also remarking on the day of
25 human rights.
1 MR. MURPHY: Once again I'm going to object to asking this witness
2 to speculate about the intentions of other parties of which he can have
3 absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question should have been
5 put in the following way: To the best of the witness's knowledge as an
6 expert, on the basis of -- did the decision have a public character or was
7 it a confidential decision that was taken? So it's on the basis of your
8 work that you can -- that you can answer that question. On the basis of
9 your research, was the document something that was known publicly? Did
10 they discuss it or did anybody know about it?
11 THE WITNESS: It was certainly known publicly, and this particular
12 document, I believe, was found in the HVO archive, in the Croatian archive
13 in Zagreb. So it was -- I don't know off the top of my head in whose
14 papers it was found, but -- and there isn't a circulation list, but if
15 there's no circulation list, it would probably be intended for broad
16 public distribution if nobody's specified specifically as being the
18 MR. SCOTT:
19 Q. If we can continue back to finish up on Exhibit P 07124. We were
20 previously looking before the break at page 3. Can I direct your
21 attention, please, over to the top of page 4, and simply to note that for
22 the Chamber at that part of the document Mr. Pusic and Mr. Bozic provide
23 some information as to the number of prisoners in the various detention
25 A. Yes, they do, and their figures are widely divergent. They spend
1 some time arguing over the actual number of prisoners.
2 Q. And this is the day after -- this is the 11th of December, the day
3 after Mr. Boban's order; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Could we go on, then, please, to Exhibit P 07143. I'm sorry.
6 7143. If I -- I may have said 74 -- there's both, but this is 7143. Can
7 you tell us what that document is?
8 A. Yes. I have it as 7413 here, but it's the same document. It's
9 the minutes of the next meeting which followed after the last meeting
10 we've seen on 13th of December, 1993. They've been charged with making
11 lists and categorising prisoners and coming back to this meeting, and
12 there are some of the same persons, although some persons are attending
13 here for the first time. It's still a very large meeting. And -- yeah.
14 This is still in Posusje.
15 Q. And among the list of those attending, does it also include Mr.
16 Berislav Pusic listed here in the English language as head of the Office
17 for the Liberation of Captured and Missing Persons in the HR HB?
18 A. Yes, it does.
19 Q. Can I ask you to go to the next page of the document, page 3. And
20 did Colonel Biskic indicate four steps or actions that were needed?
21 A. Yes, he did, in the middle of the page, that it was necessary to
22 decide who was permitted to remain in the HR HB. In regards to prisoners
23 of war, persons responsible were supposed to be the military police and
24 the SIS, which is military counter-intelligence. They're going to set a
25 deadline for those with responsibility for those leaving to third
1 countries, these prisoners being left out. And finally, to make a
2 deadline for those with responsibility, for those who wish to cross over
3 to the -- well, here it says "Muslim side" but ABiH-controlled territory.
4 Q. Now, before we go on to other parts of the document, does the next
5 paragraph indicate that as of December of 1993 there were still women
6 being held at the Heliodrom?
7 A. Yes, it does. And I believe in the previous document as well, I
8 think it was Mr. Lucic who made reference to that, that the women should
9 be released first.
10 Q. Now, as we flip through the document, and starting on page 4, do
11 we then begin to get a series of numbers per camp, the total number of
12 persons in the camp, and then what is going to -- the disposition of the
13 various persons?
14 A. Yes, we do. It's divided by camps, and numbers are given for how
15 many can stay in the HR HB.
16 Q. Let's just start with Mostar on page 4, just as one illustration.
17 We won't do the others. But what does that indicate?
18 A. Let's see here. This first set of -- you mean the ones after
19 number 1? Heliodrom, Mostar --
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. -- down there?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Okay. Out of a total of 1.896, 24 could stay in the HR HB.
24 Q. 24?
25 A. 240, sorry. 369 would remain in prisons and isolation, and 491
1 would be transferred across the lines to ABiH-held territory, and 203
2 would be transferred to a third country. This is just this subgroup of
3 prisoners they're talking about.
4 Q. All right. Did your research show, in terms of this last group
5 being transported to a third country, by what mechanisms were these people
6 going to be transferred out, outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, to some other
8 A. Generally speaking, when people were transferred to third
9 countries, they first had to obtain a visa for a third country and then
10 were given free -- free passage through Croatia, the Republic of Croatia.
11 Frequently as well, people were sent to camps in the Republic of Croatia.
12 I know there was one large one -- one important one in Korcula, and then
13 they'd be transferred to third countries from there.
14 Generally speaking, they wouldn't be sent to Croatia until a third
15 country agreed to take these persons.
16 Q. If I can then just direct your attention to page 10, to one final
17 item in this document. On page 10, again, generally, under the heading
18 for the Heliodrom, we get a series of numbers, and then it says this:
19 "743 persons were without category, and he proposed that they be
20 handed over to the supervision of the International Red Cross."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you provide the Judges with any information as to exactly how
24 that was going to work? Were they going to say, "Here, International Red
25 Cross, you take care of them?"
1 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to stop this commentary, Your Honour. I
2 know I'm dealing with professional Judges, but at some point an Appeals
3 Chamber may be reading the record, and I don't think it's very helpful to
4 have the Prosecutor leading the witness or making these sort of flip
6 MR. SCOTT:
7 Q. Do you know, Mr. Tomljanovich, do you have any information about
8 how it was that this would be handled, implemented, carried out, that they
9 would -- that 743 persons would be "handed over to the supervision of the
10 International Red Cross"?
11 A. No. With these particular persons, I do not know.
12 Q. All right.
13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can I use this --
14 MR. SCOTT: Yes, please.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: -- natural break to return to the list of the
16 persons taking part in this meeting, and especially the qualities ascribed
17 to Mr. Pusic. "Head of the Office for the Liberation of Captured and
18 Missing Persons in HR HB". Now, I don't know how you liberate missing
19 persons. That's one question.
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I haven't heard about this office before either.
22 Was this an office that was created as a consequence of this order of 10
24 THE WITNESS: I don't necessarily believe so. If I could see that
25 page in the original B/C/S.
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's page 2.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, page 2.
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Page 1 of the B/C/S.
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. Let's see here. Where is Mr. Pusic
5 here? It's near the top. Oh, I see here, yes. Uh-huh. Yes. He's
6 listed here as being the chief of the Office for the Liberation of
7 Prisoners and Displaced Persons.
8 MR. SCOTT:
9 Q. Can we just go back to the practice that you can read it --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. SCOTT:
12 Q. -- if you can read it in the B/C/S and get the interpretation,
14 A. Okay. [Interpretation] "The Head of Office for the Liberation of
15 Captured Persons and Missing Persons in the HR HB."
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I got this, yes. But still, since
17 when does this office exist?
18 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, it doesn't. And it may be
19 incorrect terminology for his title as the -- the head of the office for
20 exchange and -- exchange of prisoners and other persons. That's always a
21 possibility, that the terminology was wrong from whoever took the notes.
22 That particular wording I don't think I've ever seen in any other
23 document, although I could be wrong.
24 MR. SCOTT:
25 Q. Leaving the topic of camps, can you tell us -- on one of our final
1 topics, can you tell us what the relationship or powers of the HVO HZ HB
2 were in relation to the municipalities, and whether there were any decrees
3 or decisions setting that relationship out?
4 A. Yes. Both in the basic decision on executive government and that
5 on municipal government, it's made clear that the HVO HZ HB has the right
6 and the duty to nullify any local legislation which is not in accordance
7 with general law or general ordinances or general policy, and that this
8 particular power was used a number of times in 1992 and 1993. There's
9 also a power of appointment.
10 Q. Does the power of appointment also include a power of dismissal?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. And can I ask you to look, please, at Exhibit P 00250. When you
13 have that, can you tell us what it is and very quickly point out to us the
14 most pertinent sections or language relevant to --
15 A. Yeah. That's the statutory decision on municipal executive
16 government. This is already -- this is back from June of 1992. I don't
17 have -- let's see here. No. It's printed in the Narodni List of
18 September, but it was from -- it was approved -- here I am. I have it.
19 13th of June, 1992, and signed by Mate Boban.
20 And the relevant articles which you were talking about are number
21 -- Article 6, in particular, which reads:
22 "The HVO HZ HB shall supervise the legality of the municipal HVO's
24 "The HVO HZ HB shall issue compulsory instructions to the HVO in
25 its competence."
1 Q. You're reading from Article 6 now? Sorry.
2 A. Yes, I am.
3 Q. Can I direct your attention back up to Article number 2.
4 A. Yes. Article number 2 says that the president -- sorry, I'll
6 "A president, office heads, and other of its members which shall
7 appointed and dismissed by the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna Croatian
8 Defence Council, hereinafter HVO HZ HB, shall make up the municipal HVO."
9 So that gives the HVO the power of appointment.
10 Q. And could we next go, please, jumping from one end of the
11 documents to the other, but to Exhibit P 09530, a document that we also
12 saw yesterday?
13 A. Yes. These are the Rules of Procedure of the HVO HZ HB, which we
14 saw yesterday, from the 12th of November, 1992.
15 Q. All right. And these were issued or signed by Mr. Prlic?
16 A. Yes, I believe so.
17 Q. Now, directing your attention specifically to page 14, Articles --
18 well, actually starting on page 15, Articles 39 through 41, do those,
19 again, set out the relationship and powers and responsibility of the
20 municipalities -- the municipal HVOs in relationship to the HVO HZ HB?
21 A. Yes, they do. And, again, in Article 40 they state that -- and
22 here's the quote in the second paragraph:
23 "If the municipal HVO fails to act in conformity with the
24 preceding paragraph, the HVO HZ HB shall act in conformity with Article 15
25 of the statutory decision on the provisional organisation of executive
1 power and administration in the territory of the HZ HB ..."
2 Which is yet another order. It's the provisional order. I'm
3 sorry, did I remember to close the quote? Yes.
4 That is yet another order. I think the revised one is earlier.
5 But there's three orders now where this is mentioned.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. Or three decisions or decrees.
8 Q. Could I ask you for the witness to be shown, from the
9 organisational charts, Exhibit P 09689, page 3 on the charts. Third
10 chart. Could be page 4 in e-court, I'm told, but the third chart.
11 Now, can you look at that, sir, and does that chart indicate the
12 relationship or structure between the HVO HZ HB and the municipal HVOs?
13 A. Yes. This chart is very general and generic. You see at the top,
14 the HVO HZ HB with the various department heads, president and
15 vice-presidents; in between, you have, cited here again, the power of
16 appointment from Articles 13 and 15 of the statutory decision on executive
17 government; and Article 13, the right to nullify -- the right and duty to
18 nullify acts contrary to the general interest.
19 And at the bottom here we have a generic municipal HVO structure.
20 The idea in general was that every department and many subdepartments
21 would have local offices in each municipality, although, depending on the
22 municipality and its size, they may combine quite a number of these
23 functions into one office. So in each municipality, the number of members
24 was different.
25 Q. Now, before going on, just to inject the idea that the municipal
1 HVOs, could they also issue orders and decrees on a municipal basis?
2 A. Yes, they could and they did, and at least large municipalities
3 like Mostar had their own Official Gazette.
4 Q. Just as one example of that, could I ask you to go to P 05039.
5 Yes. There's actually several -- two decisions here. Do you have it,
7 A. I have it in front of me. I don't have it in my binder.
8 Q. I ask you to go to the second page of the English translation, to
9 the second decision indicated in the document. 24th of August, 1993.
10 A. Ah, yeah.
11 Q. What is that about?
12 A. Well, this is the decision to prohibit the work of the Party of
13 Democratic Action, or the SDA, which was the leading Muslim party in
14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, within Mostar municipality. And we don't have it
15 yet on the translation, but I believe it also characterises the party as a
16 terrorist organisation.
17 Q. Now, you've said that -- looked at these statutes and decisions,
18 decrees, that there was the power to nullify, that the central government,
19 if you will, the HZ HB, had the authority to nullify decisions. Did you
20 come across any examples of that?
21 A. Yes, I came across a handful of examples, I think most of which
22 were in Narodni List as early, I think, as the late summer/fall of 1992,
23 and at least as late as May of 1993.
24 Q. Could I ask you, before turning to one of those, to look at
25 Exhibit P 00788. And as soon as you have that, can you tell us what that
2 A. Yeah, I have it. This is a letter which I believe was -- I think
3 this was a paket radio. I'm not sure. It was received on the 21st of
4 November, 1992. We only have the receipt here dated, and it's to all HVO
5 HZ HB municipal presidents from Jadranko Prlic. It's in regards to
6 contact with representatives of UNPROFOR, and he's instructing them that
7 all such contacts should be made only following the consultation and
8 coordination with the HVO HZ HB.
9 Q. And could I ask you next to look at P 02248. Can you tell us what
10 that is, please.
11 A. Yeah. This is a decision on the invalidation of a decision which
12 had been made by the municipality of Mostar on the 24th of March, 1993,
13 which I believe is signed by Mr. Prlic. And the decision was in relation
14 to the mobilisation of material within the municipality.
15 Q. All right. Now, if we could turn, please, to the last topic, and
16 that is the formation of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the HR
18 Can I ask you, please, to look at Exhibit P 04611. Please tell us
19 what that is.
20 A. I believe if we could go to the -- I don't have this in front of
21 me. I believe this is the declaration -- if we could scroll down in the
22 B/C/S and go to the next page.
23 Q. Please.
24 A. Please. Yes. This is the basic decision on the establishment and
25 declaration of the HR HB, which is signed, I believe, here by the head of
1 the Assembly, Mr. Perica Jukic, on the 28th of August, 1993.
2 Q. All right. In the interests of time, if I can just direct your
3 attention in particular to Article 11 -- Articles 11 and 12. What does
4 Article 11 provide?
5 A. Article 11 provides that until there is a constitution and that
6 it's -- until the constitution and all of the bodies -- yes, here we are.
7 "Until such time as the constitution and the bodies of the HR HB
8 are established, the HZ HB institutions shall still be applied, as shall
9 regulations of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina if they are not in
10 contravention with the regulations of the HR HB."
11 Q. Just for accuracy's sake, when you say "the regulations of the
12 Republic --" does it say "the regulations of the Republic of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina" or "the regulations of --
14 A. Yeah, I'm sorry. "Former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
15 Q. And what does Article 12 provide?
16 A. Article 12 provides that:
17 "Until such time as elections are held and the bodies of state
18 authority are appointed, in accordance with the provisions of this
19 decision, the duties of state authority shall be performed by the bodies
20 of the authority of the HZ HB."
21 And the president shall remain the same as well.
22 Q. If we could go to the organisational chart, P 09689.
23 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.
24 [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting, but in Article 11
25 there's been a mistranslation again, and I'm surprised to see that this
1 was not mentioned by the witness. It mentions the republic that has
2 existed to date and not the former republic.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the article,
4 Article 11, in the B/C/S version and we will listen to the translation.
5 THE WITNESS: Article 11.
6 [Interpretation] "Until such time as the constitution of the
7 republic is adopted and the bodies of the republic are established, the
8 regulations in force for the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna shall be
9 applied in the territory of the Republic, as shall the regulations of the
10 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina that has existed to date if they are
11 not in contravention of the regulations of the Croatian Republic of
13 MR. SCOTT:
14 Q. Could I ask you now to --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The word "dosadsanji" is a
16 little ambiguous and could be interpreted in both ways, either as "former"
17 or "to date."
18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. If I can ask that the witness be shown, as
19 part of Exhibit P 09689, the organisational charts, the chart on page 2,
20 or maybe page 3 in e-court. Chart 2. Page 3. All right.
21 Q. And is this a chart that's been prepared to show the relationships
22 of these bodies similar to the one we looked at on Monday but after the HR
23 HB was established?
24 A. Yes. This is an organigramme of the HR HB, and it is very similar
25 to the organigramme we saw of the HZ HB.
1 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, can you tell the Judges, apart from the changing
2 of names and labels - such as instead of "department" now they're
3 "ministries"; instead of "president", "prime minister" - were there any
4 significant changes in the actual operations and functions of these bodies
5 between the HZ HB and the HR HB?
6 A. Well, that depends on what you consider significant. There's a
7 great deal of continuity. I can outline just very briefly the major
8 changes which were made --
9 Q. All right.
10 A. -- which, to large degree, are nomenclature. And I should add
11 that names are finally -- the names in HR HB are catching up to what had
12 actually been the practice, and they're more descriptive names of these
13 bodies than the names in the HZ HB had been.
14 Q. So, for example, in the left upper portion of the chart what had
15 been - we discussed this quite a bit - the HZ HB Presidency is now called
16 the House of Representatives.
17 A. Yes, it is. It fulfils a very similar legislative role. There is
18 a great degree more legislation in stating how it should operate. The
19 members are expanded and redefined, and they did then meet more regularly
20 than the Presidency. But their powers are very, very similar.
21 Q. And if I could ask that the witness be shown the -- Exhibit 4, it
22 may be page 5 in e-court, of that bundle of charts. No, I'm sorry, one --
23 my apology. The one before that.
24 Is this, sir, an updated chart, if you will, again showing the
25 relationship between the central government and the municipals after the
1 creation of the HR HB?
2 A. Yes, it is. And, once again, this is highly simplified and
3 generic. It doesn't describe any particular municipality. But, once
4 again, we've listed the sections of the laws which apply to dismissal and
5 supervision of municipal governments and the duty to nullify legislation.
6 Now, the main difference is that many of the duties which had been
7 subdepartments in the HZ HB become full ministries. Another difference,
8 which really isn't of much consequence to the period we're talking about,
9 is the law did foresee the possibility of creating elected municipal
10 assemblies which would then elect municipal -- municipal governments,
11 although this was only to be done at such time when the conditions
12 permitted, and I don't believe that was done anyplace during this period.
13 Q. And before we leave -- I'm sorry, if we could go back to the
14 previous chart. I believe it's chart number 2 of the overall book, which,
15 again, may be page 3 in e-court.
16 Just finishing up with this. On this chart, which is different
17 than the HZ HB chart, to the right of Mate Boban there is a box that says
18 "Presidential Council."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please explain that development to the Judges?
21 A. After Mate Boban left the position as president of HR HB, he
22 wasn't appointed by one man but by --
23 Q. Or replaced.
24 A. Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. He wasn't replaced by one man, he
25 was replaced by a collective body which was presided over by Kresimir
1 Zubak, and the other members of the collective Presidency are listed
2 here. And the basic decisions were modified on that day in order to allow
3 for such an institution.
4 Q. And finally, if we can look at P 06776 or -- actually, 6776 and
5 6995 are basically the same document. Let's use 6995, I'm sorry, because
6 that's the one actually out of the Gazette. P 06995.
7 And does that indicate the officers who are positions -- ministers
8 who were elected or selected as a result -- after the change to the HR HB?
9 A. Yes, it does. This comes from the 20th of November, 1993, and is
10 signed by the brand new -- well, he's still the vice-president of the
11 House of Representatives, Ivan Bender, and it's the election of the
12 government or of the cabinet.
13 In the HR HB, the president would nominate the government and the
14 Assembly would elect them, and this is the election. And all the
15 ministers are all here, as are the presidents and vice-presidents.
16 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, thank you very much for your assistance.
17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, before we let the witness go, I would
18 like to tender the remaining documents. I didn't stop and do that as we
19 went today, trying to move as quickly as possible, but I'll do that now.
20 P 03673, P 03560, P 03565, P 04352, P 04756, P 03663, P 03995, P
21 04841, P 05104, P 05503, P 05812, P 07064, P 07096, P 07124, P 07143, P
22 00250, 0 -- sorry, P 09689, P 05039, P 00788, P 02248, P 04611, P 06995.
23 And before I finish, Your Honour, I want to make it clear that the
24 Prosecution is tendering, as explained on Monday, we're tendering the
25 entire set of Narodni List documents for each of the relevant years 1992,
1 1993, and 1994, including the individual translated items that go with
2 each bundle. And we're also tendering as a complete collection all of the
3 records of the meetings of the HVO HZ HB.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now address the Defence. I
6 hope you have reached an agreement and that it won't be necessary for the
7 Chamber to decide as to how you should use your time. Who will start the
9 Mr. Murphy.
10 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, yes, I will be starting the
11 cross-examination. Your Honour, it would be helpful if we could, once
12 again, review the time that is available. I think that the Defence has
13 made the necessary internal arrangements, but if it could be indicated
14 exactly how much time we have, that would assist.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll be working
16 until 7.00 p.m., and we have the entire day tomorrow, and we have Monday.
17 We'll have perhaps have two additional hours, but that won't be on
18 Tuesday. That will have to be on some other day. So you have two hours
19 until 7.00 p.m., excluding the break, and then you have tomorrow and
20 Monday. So you have eight hours. Four hours tomorrow, four hours on
21 Monday, plus an hour or a half or two hours. That amounts to nine and a
22 half hours. And perhaps you'll need two additional hours. So you have a
23 total of eleven and a half hours, provided that there are no
24 interruptions, no incidents, et cetera.
25 I don't know how you have divided the time among yourselves. You
1 have perhaps discussed the matter. Mr. Murphy, have you decided on how to
2 share your time, or are you just going to proceed blindly?
3 MR. MURPHY: No, Your Honour. We have -- we have made certain
4 decisions about that which I may or may not have changed, as with certain
5 counsel just since the last break because of what was asked in
6 examination-in-chief. But for the moment my assumption is that we will be
7 proceeding on the basis that Ms. Nozica and I have at least two hours. We
8 expect that perhaps further time will be made available to us by one of
9 the other accused, and that should become clear after the next break.
10 I don't know whether there's any advantage in my rehearsing all of
11 the arrangements that have been made, but suffice it to say that at this
12 point we will assume that there will be no difficulties that arise.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we will all
14 assume that there will be no difficulties arising. That's already quite
16 Mr. Murphy, you may take the floor now.
17 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, with the usher's assistance, I wonder
18 whether, if Mr. Scott has no objection, I could borrow the small podium he
19 has there. The ones in the courtroom are really too big to be of
20 practical use, if he doesn't mind.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Murphy:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tomljanovich.
23 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Murphy.
24 Q. My colleague Ms. Nozica and I represent the accused Bruno Stojic.
25 I'm sure you know that.
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And you're aware, I think, of the need for -- for us to be slow
3 because the interpreters have to catch up with us.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Also, I want to ask you if you have available a copy of your
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. And I'd like you to feel free to refer to that as much as you
9 wish. I will be asking you certain questions about it.
10 I'd like to begin with your qualifications, which I have to say I
11 find very impressive. One small point on that: You mentioned that you
12 were -- held the position of a lecturer at both Yale and Dickinson
13 universities; is that right?
14 A. Yes. I'm not exactly sure what my specific title was for each
15 particular job I would get each semester. It would frequently change.
16 Q. I just ask because there is a certain difference in terminology
17 between academic positions in the United States and Europe, isn't there?
18 A. Yes, there is. And also within institutions and between
19 institutions in the United States as well.
20 Q. If you had been a full-time member of the faculty at those
21 universities, your style would have been that of an assistance professor?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So, in fact, what it indicates is that you were essentially
24 teaching on a part-time basis while pursuing advanced studies.
25 A. Yes. At Yale, indeed I was.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. At Dickinson I was teaching part-time because I had moved there in
3 the middle of writing my dissertation while my wife had obtained a job
4 there at the same time.
5 Q. I see. Now, you're currently employed by the Office of the
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You've been employed by the Office of the Prosecutor, I think,
9 since 1999?
10 A. Yes, March 2nd, 1999.
11 Q. And is that your -- has that been your only employment since 1999?
12 A. Regular employment, yes. I did receive money for the book which I
13 had published as well as the two chapters in a book which I had published
14 as well. But that was an outside activity and not actually employment, I
15 wouldn't say.
16 Q. But you were not employed by or acting as an agent for anyone else
17 other than the Office of the Prosecutor during that time?
18 A. No, I was not.
19 Q. Now, you've been presented, as you know, as an expert witness in
20 this case.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I'd like to just understand or to get your understanding of
23 what exactly your field of expertise is that you have favoured us with in
24 this case.
25 A. Well, I understand your question could possibly mean two things;
1 an expert in the legal sense that we're using it as an expert in the
2 court, or just generally an expert, as somebody who knows a lot about a
4 Q. Well, let me come at it a different way. You're a professional
5 historian; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And essentially your job within the Office of the Prosecutor makes
8 use of that professional knowledge and experience, doesn't it?
9 A. Yes, it does.
10 Q. And the research that you have done in this case you have done
11 using your skills as an historian?
12 A. Both my skills as an historian and the knowledge I've obtained on
13 the job here, yes.
14 Q. Yes. Now, as an historian, Mr. Tomljanovich, would you agree with
15 me that in conducting historical research one should look objectively at
16 all sides of a given question?
17 A. In historical research, yes.
18 Q. And would you also agree with me that in historical research one
19 should have access to as many different sources as possible?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Once again, you have approached your work in relation to this case
22 using your skills as an historian; is that right?
23 A. Using my skills as an historian but not necessarily the same
24 approach, of course.
25 Q. Well, we'll come back to that, but let's -- let's, first of all,
1 examine your qualifications in a little more detail. I think we can agree
2 that you're not a lawyer; is that right?
3 A. No, I'm not now, nor have I ever been a lawyer.
4 Q. You had never studied law either in the United States or in the
5 former Yugoslavia?
6 A. No, I have not.
7 Q. I emphasise that because you've been asked a number of questions
8 in examination-in-chief about the structures within the HZ HB and the HR
9 HB, haven't you?
10 A. Yes, I have.
11 Q. And the answers that you've given, can we agree, are not intended
12 to be statements of the law as regards the structures of those
14 A. No, and I think I made that clear in an earlier answer, that I can
15 only tell you what the documents say; I can't tell you what legally --
16 legally was correct or incorrect within the system of law of Herceg-Bosna.
17 Q. Well, I ask that because certain questions were put to you about
18 the competence of certain persons or the way things were supposed to
19 work. But just to make it clear, that's not something that you can really
20 help with as a legal question?
21 A. Not as a legal -- a legal question, although as a practical
22 question, the function of government in Herceg-Bosna was followed by
23 people who weren't lawyers as well. But, no, it's not a legal opinion.
24 Q. And it's also true that you're not a political scientist by
25 training; is that right?
1 A. No, I'm not.
2 Q. And you're not an economist by training?
3 A. Certainly not.
4 Q. Though you did in your examination-in-chief give us an extended
5 discussion of inflation and hyperinflation in the Republic of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina, but to make it clear, you're not a professional economist,
7 are you?
8 A. No, but I had to spend Croatian dinars in this period and that is
9 the basis of my knowledge, and I've also looked at exchange rates. But
10 I'm not an economist.
11 Q. So your knowledge on that subject comes from spending Croatian
12 dinars; is that what you're saying?
13 A. Yes. I was living there at the time and I knew -- I mean, first
14 of all I know.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. And also for the Tuta-Stela trial, I prepared a list of the
17 exchange rates between the Croatian dinar and the German Deutschmarks, the
18 official rates going through, well, the entire period of the Croatian
20 Q. All right. Now, you told us that this was the first time that you
21 have given evidence as an expert witness; is that right?
22 A. Yes. I submitted -- I was put forward as an expert once before in
23 the Kordic case, but I was not heard by the Bench in that case.
24 Q. Why was that, do you know?
25 A. I believe that Judge May, at the time, said that my testimony was
2 Q. Now, you have testified as a witness in the contempt hearing
3 against Markica Rebic?
4 A. Yes, Markica Rebic.
5 Q. But in that case you did not testify as an expert?
6 A. No, I did not.
7 Q. Now, given that this was your first time as an expert witness, did
8 somebody explain to you before you came to give evidence what the function
9 of an expert witness is in legal proceedings?
10 A. Well, in legal proceedings as far as what would be expected of me
11 as an expert in a trial in the ICTY, yes.
12 Q. And who gave you that explanation?
13 A. The explanation was given both in broad terms by Mr. Scott as well
14 as by my immediate supervisor, Mr. Patrick J. Treanor.
15 Q. What did Mr. Scott and Mr. Treanor tell you the function of an
16 expert witness was in legal proceedings?
17 A. Well, not in legal proceedings in general. They didn't tell me
18 that in a broad theoretical legal framework, but they did tell me the
19 sorts of things I'd be expected to do and the sorts of things I would not
20 be expected to do as an expert here at the ICTY, based on prior experience
21 of other expert testimony here at the ICTY.
22 Q. Well, did they explain to you that the function of an expert
23 witness is to provide the Court with an opinion on technical matters?
24 A. No, they did not. Not in those words, no.
25 Q. Well, then, perhaps you could tell us in your own words what your
1 understanding is today of the role of an expert at the ICTY.
2 A. I was instructed that my role was to put forward the evidence and
3 reach any possible conclusions or make any possible statements I could
4 based on the documentary evidence I had, rather than on my own personal
5 opinions or on speculation.
6 Q. So you were told that you weren't supposed to speculate; is that
8 A. Well, no. I was told that if I do speculate and if I am asked a
9 question by the Bench or by other side and I can't answer it on the basis
10 of documentation, I need to say so, and the Judges will either want to
11 hear that or not.
12 Q. I see. So then in terms of looking at the documents, you do agree
13 that it is your function to provide the Court with an opinion?
14 A. Broadly speaking, yes, although I'm not necessarily sure I
15 understand the legal implications of an opinion. But, broadly speaking,
17 Q. Have you finished your answer, or were you --
18 A. I'm sorry, I was thinking about the answer still.
19 Q. Well, that's okay. We --
20 A. Well, I could say it depends on what you call an opinion.
21 Certainly not an opinion based on my own personal thoughts but only
22 opinions and conclusions which I can reach on the basis of the evidence
23 which I have in front of me for this particular testimony.
24 Q. So could we summarise it, then, by saying this: That you would be
25 asked to read the documents and provide commentary on them? Is that what
1 it comes to, really?
2 A. To a large degree, yes.
3 Q. All right. Now, did Mr. Scott or Mr. Treanor explain to you that
4 one of the attributes expected of an expert witness is to be neutral or
6 A. Yes, absolutely.
7 Q. Do you recall that, indeed, Judge Antonetti instructed you at the
8 beginning of your evidence that you were now the witness of the Court?
9 A. Yes, I do recall that.
10 Q. And, referring to your report for a moment, do you consider that
11 to be a neutral and objective expert report?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Do you consider the evidence that you have given so far to be
14 neutral and objective?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your employment with the
17 Office of the Prosecutor. You said that your function was that you were a
18 member of a leadership research team.
19 A. Yes, it's called the Leadership Research Team.
20 Q. Yes. And at one point in your evidence you used the phrase
21 "bringing documents in house," and I took that to indicate a certain
22 pride in and identification with the Office of the Prosecutor; is that
24 A. No. Bringing them in house means going on mission, going through
25 archives elsewhere and bringing them to the ICTY.
1 Q. What is your understanding of the function of the Office of the
2 Prosecutor within the Tribunal?
3 A. Well, the Office of the Prosecution's function in the Tribunal is
4 to carry out -- now, I can't remember the actual number of the UN
5 Resolution, but to --
6 Q. That's all right.
7 A. -- to carry out the Statute and do its duties as outlined in the
8 UN Resolution setting up the ICTY, and also to observe the rules.
9 Q. Well, let's make it concrete. The Office of the Prosecutor
10 conducts investigations; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Collects evidence?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Identifies suspects?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Drafts indictments and presents them for confirmation?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then prosecutes the accused with the intention of obtaining
20 A. Yes, and that's true for the OTP as one whole unit, yes.
21 Q. Yes. And you're an employee of the OTP?
22 A. Yes, of the investigations section of the Office of the
24 Q. Your function is to help the Prosecution build its case before
25 trial, isn't it?
1 A. Our function -- this should be made clear: Our function in the
2 investigations section is to investigate what happened. It's the function
3 of the lawyers in the Prosecution section to decide who then may or may
4 not be legally responsible for something and to decide how the case should
5 be argued or any cases should be argued.
6 Q. I understand, sir. How long have you worked on this present case?
7 A. On and off - I haven't worked continuously on this certainly - on
8 and off, I've worked on things related to this case - oh, boy - since --
9 probably since the first or second week since I arrived here.
10 Q. 1999?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You worked on other cases involving Croatian and Bosnian accused
13 as well, haven't you?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. Blaskic case?
16 A. No. The Blaskic case was nearly done by the time I got here.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. And so I was assigned to the Kordic case.
19 Q. Kordic?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Tuta and Stela?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And based upon your researches over such a large number of years,
24 you have a considerable knowledge now about the facts of these cases.
25 Would that be right?
1 A. Yes, although I'd have to warn you that a part of what's discussed
2 in those cases, especially if we're talking about Tuta and Stela, I
3 couldn't tell you very much about the crime base. Generally, my -- my
4 involvement there was to help prepare for Defence witnesses, if they were
5 persons of, you know, particular political or governmental importance.
6 Q. Well, let's talk about some of the things that you've done in this
7 case. You took part in interviewing some people, didn't you?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. In fact, you interviewed a Ms. Viherouria in October of 2001.
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. In December 2001, you actually were present and helped conduct an
12 interview of the accused Mr. Prlic.
13 A. Yes I did.
14 Q. And in January and February, 2004, you interviewed Mr. Zubak; is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Remind the Judges who Mr. Zubak is, please.
18 A. He was -- initially he was a judge from Doboj in Northern Bosnia,
19 and then he became the vice-president of the HVO HZ HB, particularly
20 involved in questions of justice and legality. He was briefly the
21 Minister of Justice in the HR HB, and then he became the president of the
22 -- well, the president of the collective Presidency of the HR HB.
23 Q. Is he a person who has been indicted in the Tribunal?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was that decision based, in part, upon the interviews that you've
2 A. I think you'd have to ask Mr. Scott and the other lawyers. The
3 decision to indict or not indict is not my decision.
4 Q. Well, let me put it this way, then: Were you asked for and did
5 you give advice as it whether Zubak should be indicted?
6 A. At the time of his interview, I don't think we discussed that at
8 Q. Did you discuss it at some other time?
9 A. Well, in the very early days of my work here when -- prior to --
10 you know, very early on, possible targets were discussed amongst a broad
11 segment of people. Anybody who could conceivably have been responsible
12 was looked at.
13 Q. All right. Let me ask you about that, then. What you're telling
14 us is, then, that you played a part in meetings at which it was discussed
15 who might be indicted in the Tribunal and who would not?
16 A. Well, there were meetings where very -- various possible targets
17 and possible avenues of investigation were discussed. I was not there
18 when it was discussed who specifically would be a target of a formal
19 investigation. I was there discussing -- at meetings where possible
20 indictments were discussed, though, after the formal investigations had
21 been opened.
22 Q. I understand that that was not your decision, sir, so my question,
23 really, is just this: It would be reasonable to assume that your opinions
24 were taken into account in making certain decisions as to who might be
25 suspects and who should be indicted. Would that be fair?
1 A. Well, to know how seriously, you'd have to ask Mr. Scott and the
2 other senior attorneys.
3 Q. I'm really not concerned to know how seriously. I'm just asking
4 whether it's reasonable for us to think that your opinion was taken into
6 A. Well, as far as my opinions on what, in fact, happened, yes. I
7 don't know if my -- I never expressed opinions saying, "Well, you could
8 charge so-and-so for this and could charge so-and-so for that." But my
9 opinions, when I was asked, for example, "What is in the Narodni List,"
10 and asked "What do these documents tell us," I've always told the
11 Prosecution section what I thought about those things. And since they
12 keep asking me, I presume they did take me seriously on those issues, yes.
13 Q. Other than interviewing these persons that we've discussed, did
14 you play any other part in the investigation of the case against these
16 A. Well, yes, although it's not strictly directly, but one of the
17 biggest duties I've had over the years I've been here is bringing in the
18 documentation from archival missions and -- and dealing with materials
19 which we were acquiring, many of which were used in this case, many more
20 of which were not.
21 Q. And as the evidence accumulated, did you attend strategy sessions
22 or other meetings as to how the case should be developed?
23 A. Yes, I did, and I would receive further tasks on which things
24 needed to be researched further.
25 Q. Before the trial started in this case late in April, did you have
1 any tasks in assisting the Prosecutors to prepare for trial?
2 A. This April?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. 2006.
5 Q. Before the trial started, yes.
6 A. Well, I was working on this report. I was assigned to do this in
7 November of 2005. However, I was working on another case till about
8 February. So I was working on this report more or less steadily from
9 February through April of this year.
10 Q. Did it ever occur to you to look for sources of information
11 outside the Office of the Prosecutor?
12 A. Well, it's always occurring to us to look for more information
13 from outside the office. We always would welcome more information.
14 Q. On the first day that you gave evidence, you said, and I can refer
15 you to the transcript if you wish, that your approach to this case was
16 really no different from that of an academic expert looking at these
17 things from the outside. Do you remember saying that?
18 A. I don't think I put it in those words. I believe -- I believe Mr.
19 Scott asked me the question, "Would you have done anything differently
20 were you not working for the Prosecution?" And I said, no, that my
21 approach was the same as it would have been if I was from the outside.
22 However, and I added, and this is certainly true, if I was coming from the
23 outside I wouldn't have access to this much material, nor would I have had
24 this much time to become familiar with these things.
25 Q. Well, I have the transcript here, and I'll just read to you what
1 you said, if I may.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. This is, for the record, the transcript of the 4th of September,
4 and I'm beginning at page 16, line 23. I'm beginning, really, in
5 mid-sentence. Mr. Scott asked you:
6 "... can you tell the Judges, sir, is there anything about your
7 approach or the methodology of the work that you did in connection with
8 your report or about observations that you have made in your report that
9 in your view would be any different if you had performed this work while
10 not employed by the Office of the Prosecutor?"
11 And then your answer begins at page 17, line 6:
12 "No, with one very clear exception. I can't imagine I'd be able
13 to look at as much of this material and have as much time to get to know
14 this much material as well if I hadn't been working here full time for
15 seven and a half years. But other than that, I didn't reach -- I don't
16 think -- if I'd been, say, an academic expert looking at these things from
17 the outside, I can't imagine how it would have been any different or how
18 my conclusions would have been any different ..."
19 Now, sir, today you have agreed with me that for several years you
20 played an active role in investigating this case; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You consulted with respect to many important decisions.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Some of which may have determined whether certain people became
25 accused in this case or whether they did not.
1 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly how much my work contributed to who was
2 indicted and who was not, especially in terms of amounts, although
3 certainly it was -- it certainly was considered.
4 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, as an historian, would you not agree with me
5 that in looking at the history of any conflict one must treat with a
6 little caution the opinions expressed by people who were actively involved
7 in one side or the other?
8 A. Absolutely. In history you should treat it with caution, and in a
9 trial you should probably treat it with even greater caution.
10 Q. And your position, sir, in this case is not that of an academic
11 expert but somebody who is intimately and deeply involved with one of the
12 parties to the case. Isn't that right?
13 A. Well, yes. However, I was never told what sort of conclusions I
14 should reach. I was only given the parameters of what it is I should be
15 looking at. And I should add that, even though I was involved, certainly
16 my opinions were taken into consideration I'm sure at any points in the
17 investigations and also for preparation for trial. I don't have any
18 particular personal stake in the outcome of the trial.
19 Q. But you would agree with me, sir, that your position is actually
20 very different from that of an academic expert, wouldn't you?
21 A. Yes, and I know the Tribunal treats internal experts differently
22 from external experts.
23 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you some other questions. You told
24 us -- you were born in the United States. Is that right, sir?
25 A. Yes, I was, in St. Paul, Minnesota.
1 Q. Are you a citizen of any other country?
2 A. No, I am not.
3 Q. Do you hold a passport from any other country?
4 A. No. I have the United Nations LP for travel, but, no, I have no
5 other citizenship.
6 Q. And what's the ethnic origin of your family, if I may ask?
7 A. Well, you're probably more interested in my father's family. My
8 mother's family is partly -- mainly German, partly English. My mother has
9 no connection with the former Yugoslavia other than marrying my father.
10 And my grandparents, the last time they came to the United States was
11 shortly before my father's birth. So it -- they probably would have come
12 to the United States about 1925, give or take a year, my grandparents.
13 Q. Yes, okay. I'm not sure you answered the question, but your
14 ethnic origin is --
15 A. Oh, well --
16 Q. On your father's side.
17 A. Croatian.
18 Q. Croatian.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. And do I gather, then, from what you said that your
21 grandparents emigrated from Croatia to the United States? Is that what
22 you said?
23 A. Yes, they did.
24 Q. In 1925?
25 A. Give or take a year. Certainly before 1927, because my father was
1 born in the United States.
2 Q. Yes. And did you learn Croatian, grow up speaking it at home, or
3 did --
4 A. A little bit, because my grandmother never did learn to speak
5 English particularly well. So I learned some at home. And then I learned
6 more travelling to Zagreb while I was in university, and I studied it in
7 university. And then I became really proficient using it as an historian,
8 both as an undergraduate and as a graduate student.
9 Q. Now, of course, at the ICTY we're generally supposed to refer to
10 the language as B/C/S. What do you call it when you're not here?
11 A. Well, for example, if I was talking to a Bosnian friend -- it
12 depends. What I would be speaking I would call Croatian. If they're a
13 Bosnian friend or a Serbian friend I would call what they're speaking
14 Croatian or Serbian. And then I know quite frequently in the United
15 States, amongst mixed groups of people, we just frequently call it "nas
16 jezik", or "our language" generically.
17 Q. All right. Did your grandparents emigrate for political reasons?
18 A. No. Purely for very, very pressing economic reasons. My
19 grandfather had to come three times. He could never find work going home.
20 Q. I see.
21 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, would this be a convenient moment to
22 take a break? I think I've lost track of time a little bit.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's 25 to 6.00. We will have a
24 20-minute break, and we'll resume in 20 minutes exactly.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Murphy.
3 MR. MURPHY: [Interpretation] I'd just like to know whether I'm
4 going too fast for the French booth.
5 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, I'm told by the legal officer that you would
6 like to clarify an answer that you gave previously; is that right?
7 A. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Murphy. I just realised when I sat
8 down here, looking at the transcript, that I misspoke. I didn't want to
9 give the impression that I would call what somebody Bosnian speaks
10 Croatian. If I was talking to someone who was Bosnian or Serbian, I
11 should say that I would call what they were speaking Bosnian or Serbian,
12 and what I would be speaking, Croatian. I didn't mean to imply that
13 Bosnians are speaking Croatian.
14 Q. All right. Thank you very much. As an historian with a
15 particular interest in the Balkans, I would imagine you take an active
16 interest in Croatian politics?
17 A. Yes, although certainly much more now than before I started
18 working here.
19 Q. And, of course, with your ethnic origin, that would also give you
20 an interest in what happens in the Republic of Croatia.
21 A. Yes, absolutely.
22 Q. If you can't answer this question, or you'd like me to put it in a
23 different way, please tell me: As between the politics of the Tudjman
24 administration and the president -- present government of Croatia, where
25 does your preference lie?
1 A. Well, my preference both before and after working here, and it
2 doesn't influence my work, but my preference would definitely be
3 politically with the current president, Mr. Mesic, rather than Mr.
5 Q. So you would disapprove of some of the actions or decisions taken
6 by the Tudjman administration?
7 A. Yes. It would be hard to -- to work here and see everything I've
8 seen and not.
9 Q. Well, let's go back to the period round about 1990, 1991. Were
10 you at that time following events in the former Yugoslavia?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. Both as an historian, or at least an advanced student of history,
13 and also someone who had a personal interest in what was going on?
14 A. Yes, and a very direct interest. I was supposed to have gone to
15 Zagreb in the summer of 1991.
16 Q. Did it become apparent to you at some particular time that the
17 former Yugoslavia was on the point of dissolution?
18 A. Yes, and I think I can just about date -- I always have one
19 particular memory in mind of that as well.
20 Q. Can you tell us what that date was, approximately?
21 A. Well, I remember being in the -- I think it was in the basement of
22 the Yale library, and this would have been late 1988, early 1989, and
23 reading a copy of Nin, which is a Serbian news weekly and thinking to
24 myself, Good heavens, if what's -- if they -- if whoever wrote this
25 believes what they wrote, war is a real possibility.
1 Q. All right. Now, when the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia
2 began, as we know, certain of the -- of what had previously been republics
3 within the federation began to become independent states, didn't they?
4 A. Yes, they did.
5 Q. First of all Slovenia and then Croatia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And after that, the question arose of what would happen to Bosnia
8 and Herzegovina; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At that time, what was your opinion as to what the political
11 solution in Bosnia and Herzegovina should be?
12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, excuse me. Apologies to Mr. Murphy for
13 interrupting. Your Honour, I've been silent up until now, but I think
14 some of these things, we're getting far afield from what is really
15 relevant to this testimony. The witness has indicated a number of times
16 already that his personal opinions did not enter into his work. I've
17 certainly allowed Mr. Murphy to go on for some considerable period as to
18 his personal feelings and background, but I think now we're getting into
19 things that -- unless there's some showing -- there can be some showing of
20 some connection, I think we should move forward.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, the witness has presented --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy, what is the
24 relevance? What is the link? Because I can see that you're asking him
25 about his political opinions. You could have quite easily said that
1 they're manifested in a vote. He's played along with you. He's answered
2 your questions. You're following the same line of questioning, though,
3 which means that there is something you want to demonstrate.
4 MR. MURPHY: The witness has presented himself as being a neutral
5 and objective expert, and it was simply my intention to explore the extent
6 of his neutrality, so to speak. But I can do that quite briefly and move
8 Q. Let me just pose one specific question, then, sir, and I'll move
9 on. Was it your opinion that Bosnia and Herzegovina should become an
10 independent state with a heterogeneous population?
11 A. Yes, because I didn't see any real viable alternative to that.
12 Certainly the borders which were established, the so-called AVNOJ borders
13 or the post World War II borders between the republics certainly might not
14 be ideal, and certainly you leave a lot of people on the wrong side of a
15 frontier if you draw lines. But I'm not sure they could be improved upon
16 necessarily, and plus that -- that opens up all sorts of other problems if
17 you start interfering with those borders.
18 Certainly, personally, the solution I would have liked to have
19 seen most is any solution which would have allowed people in Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina to be able to live where they did before the war and continue
21 to live there and continue to live normal lives as they did before the
23 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I want to move on to ask you some
24 questions about the HZ HB and the HR HB, as you have given evidence about
1 First of all, I think we're agreed that the decision on taking the
2 -- on founding the HZ HB was taken on the 18th of November, 1991; is that
4 A. The formal decision, yes, although the decision to make that
5 decision was made on the 12th of November.
6 Q. Yes. Now, at that time, this was some time before Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina was recognised as an independent state by the United States
8 and the European Union; is that right?
9 A. Yes, it was.
10 Q. Do you remember when that recognition was given to Bosnia and
12 A. I believe it's the first week of April, I think, and I'm not
13 positive, April 6th, of --
14 Q. Of 1992.
15 A. -- 1992. Yes.
16 Q. Yes. So when the HZ HB was established, it was established on the
17 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina but before that territory was
18 recognised as an independent state. Would you agree?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And if you would now, sir, turn -- I have a number of questions to
21 ask you based on your report, if you have that available, please.
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 MR. MURPHY: And if the members of the Court have the report, I'm
24 going to page 10 initially, and paragraph 13.
25 Q. And you're dealing there with a particular document. Can you
1 remind us what that document is?
2 A. Well, if it's citation number 20, those would be the conclusions
3 of the meeting of the 12th of November, 1991, which is the meeting I was
4 discussing just a second ago, which is the decision to decide to establish
5 Herceg-Bosna in the near future.
6 Q. Yes. And if you look down in paragraph 13, about seven lines from
7 the bottom, there is a phrase quoted from the document, "... forces in
8 favour of a non-existent sovereign BiH," and at the time that phrase was
9 quite accurate, wasn't it?
10 A. Well, if you're thinking in terms of international recognition,
11 yes. However, my reading of that is that they're referring to persons
12 like Mr. Kljuic, who were still in favour of Bosnian -- Bosnian integrity.
13 Q. Then the citation goes on, "... in which the Croatian people would
14 be condemned to genocide and elimination from history."
15 Now, would you agree, based on your research, that that kind of
16 language of mutual accusations -- I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE PRANDLER: [Microphone not activated]. Let me start again.
18 When you referred to that -- actually, to that citation by the witness,
19 that is, with all these forces, "that we tried to stop these inevitable
20 forces," et cetera, there you referred to the transcript but I did not
21 find it, "...in which the Croatian people would be condemned to genocide
22 and elimination from history." I frankly don't find that one. Is it in
23 the same paragraph 13 or do you take that -- that part of your quotation
24 from another document -- I mean from another place in this report?
25 MR. MURPHY: No, it's in paragraph 13 of the report, Your Honour,
1 on page 10.
2 JUDGE PRANDLER: Yes. Actually, I see now that in that --
3 because, frankly, I merely studied the paragraph 13 and the footnote 20,
4 and afterwards 22, but now I see that you quoted that particular part
5 after footnote 21.
6 MR. MURPHY: That's right, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PRANDLER: "... party leadership at that time that there
8 were still forces in favour of a non-existent," et cetera.
9 MR. MURPHY: Yes.
10 JUDGE PRANDLER: Now I found it. Thank you very much.
11 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, language of that kind, in your experience,
13 talking about genocide and elimination, was used by all parties to the
14 conflict at different times, wasn't it?
15 A. Yeah. Individuals from all parties used language like that in
16 this conflict.
17 Q. As a form, in a way, of propaganda?
18 A. Yes, although in some instances fairly well justified.
19 Q. It's not unusual for states or entities who feel threatened to --
20 to use propaganda of that kind, is it?
21 Well, let me give you a concrete example. You're familiar with
22 the phrase "the axis of evil," aren't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Isn't it a fairly normal reaction of a state that perceives itself
25 to be under threat to use strong language about their perceived enemy;
1 isn't that right?
2 A. In theory, yes, although I don't think in the case of the axis of
3 evil that particular inflammatory language was justified. But sometimes
4 people -- sometimes politicians do use inflammatory language, yes.
5 Q. Yes. Well, that's really, I think, my point.
6 At the time when the HZ HB was established, it was a time of great
7 uncertainty in the former Yugoslavia. Would you agree?
8 A. Yes, absolutely. At the same time it was established, the city of
9 Vukovar fell to the JNA and Serb forces, and there was a pitched war going
10 on in Croatia. Yes, absolutely.
11 Q. And, indeed, to some extent at least, the JNA and the Serb forces
12 were using the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina from which to launch an
13 attack against Croatia. Would you agree?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, as you point out in your report, shortly before the HZ HB was
16 established, the Serbs had set up their own entities, the beginning to --
17 what eventually became the so-called Serb autonomous areas; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that at that time the
20 Serbs represented a serious military threat to the non-Serb inhabitants of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
22 A. Yes, and events bore that out.
23 Q. Now, let me ask you now a few questions about the HZ HB and some
24 of the things that were done during that are period. You told us and gave
25 many examples that an Official Gazette, the Narodni List, was published;
1 is that right?
2 A. Yes, it was.
3 Q. And this was an official journal in which decrees and other
4 decisions were published.
5 A. Yes. It was an Official Gazette, yes. Decrees and decisions and
6 other enactments were published, yes.
7 Q. And that would be the official record of those acts; right?
8 A. Well, certainly not the only one, because there were a fair number
9 of decisions and decrees which were not published in Narodni List as
10 well. But, yes, it is -- it is the main place where such things were
11 published, yes.
12 Q. But you also mentioned in your report that there was a department
13 called the subdepartment for information that published other information,
14 things that were not published in Narodni List; is that right?
15 A. Well, I think there were subdepartments for information. There
16 may have been more than one department. Do you remember which department
17 we're talking about?
18 Q. Well, I was looking --
19 A. Welfare and --
20 Q. In your reports I think I was looking at page 36, and paragraph
21 87. Right at the end of paragraph 87, there you said, "The HVO decided
22 which materials from the meetings were made public."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then you mentioned that --
25 A. Yes, yeah.
1 Q. -- "Information not made public was given to the subdepartment of
2 information that then published a separate information bulletin."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in addition to all of that, as you've demonstrated to us, they
5 kept numerous reports of meetings.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Minutes of numbered meetings?
8 A. Yes. Our record isn't complete of all the numbered meetings, but
9 quite a few. We have quite a few, and I'm sure they kept -- at one point
10 I'm sure there were complete sets.
11 Q. They generated a very large amount of paper, didn't they?
12 A. Oh, absolutely. I've always pointed out to people it's hard -- if
13 you haven't worked in the archives you have no idea. This is the first
14 war that was fought by people with computer printers and photocopying
15 machines. So it's enormous amounts of paper, yes.
16 Q. I suppose my point in asking you these questions is this: That
17 those who established and operated the HZ HB did it in a fairly open and
18 public fashion, didn't they?
19 A. That depends what you think of in terms of "open". The
20 declaration itself on the 18th of November was open and public. Because
21 of events in Croatia, it got very little space in the press. And I also
22 believe - and this is way beyond the scope of this paper - I believe that
23 not everybody in the HDZ BiH was aware of it immediately before it was
24 going to happen.
25 Q. Well, of course, we can't always control what appears in the press
1 and what doesn't, but the fact of the matter is they issued a vast number
2 of documents that were available to the public.
3 A. Oh, you mean over the whole course of its existence, not just when
4 it was established.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Oh, yes. Yes, and most of that -- and the Narodni Lists are
7 extremely useful for understanding what they were doing. They're public,
8 but they're extremely useful, yes.
9 Q. These were not people that were hiding away in a corner, were
11 A. Not everything they did was public, but certainly who they were
12 was public, yes.
13 Q. Yes. And, of course, diplomacy is by nature sometimes secret,
14 isn't it?
15 A. In principle, although I don't know -- are you just talking about
16 politics in general or actual international diplomacy?
17 Q. Diplomacy.
18 A. Sometimes. Not always.
19 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you, please, to go to page 11 of your
20 report. And I just want to draw attention to some of the -- some of the
21 decisions and things that were done by the HZ HB that I think perhaps have
22 not been emphasised quite enough.
23 In paragraph 16, we're dealing now, are we not, with the decision
24 to establish the HZ HB? Is that right?
25 A. Yes, we are.
1 Q. And you point out in paragraph 16 of your report that one of the
2 things that was contained there in Article 5 was "a conditional respect
3 for the democratically elected bodies of authority of the Republic of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina."
5 A. Yes, being conditional on their maintaining independence from the
6 former or any future Yugoslavia.
7 Q. Yes. And then in paragraph 17 of your report, you record that in
8 Article 6 they directly accept responsibility for enforcing international
9 law; is that right?
10 A. Yes, absolutely. They directly subordinate themselves to
11 international law.
12 Q. Just pausing there for a moment. There is some similarity, isn't
13 there, between -- in a way, between the language of that decision and the
14 language which you'll be familiar with in the Declaration of Independence
15 of the United States. Do you see any resemblance there?
16 A. Well, quite a bit, because even though this isn't a formal
17 declaration of independence, it virtually is a declaration of
19 Q. Well, the 13 colonies in the United States set up an entity on the
20 sovereign territory of Great Britain, didn't they?
21 A. Yes, they did.
22 Q. Because they had some grievances against the British government
23 which were not resolved.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As an historian, you're aware, aren't you, that in one sense
1 history is written by the winners?
2 A. In one sense, yes.
3 Q. If the War of Independence in the United States had gone the other
4 way, George Washington and others would have been probably hanged for
5 treason, wouldn't they?
6 A. Well, not only that. If you look at Canadian history, it's also
7 -- that is presented from the other side as well.
8 Q. Let's go to page 21 of your report. In paragraph 48 there and the
9 following paragraph, paragraph 49, you record that HZ HB -- that while
10 there was an order there signed by Mr. Boban on organising, operating and
11 jurisdiction of the judiciary.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And there were a number of documents in which the HZ HB were
14 concerned to set up a system of courts; is that right? A system of
16 A. Not just a system of justice, but especially after, I think,
17 October of 1992 an independent system of justice.
18 Q. Yes. And, again, in a similar vein, going to page 30, 3-0, of
19 your report, paragraph 77, we see that they adopt a code of criminal law.
20 A. Well, they're adopting the existing code of criminal law, and by
21 adopting it they're making the existing Bosnian -- Republic of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina Criminal Code, they're putting it into effect for
24 Q. Right. And then on page 48 of your report, paragraph 119, you
25 tell us that they were keeping statistics about crime in the Department of
1 Internal Affairs.
2 A. Yes, they were.
3 Q. Details of how many crimes had been committed, what kind of
4 crimes, and even how many of them had been solved.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And that was a continuing concern throughout the lifetime of the
7 HZ HB, wasn't it?
8 A. Yes. There was a great deal of time spent on the organs of
10 Q. And so my point, I suppose, in these questions is that the
11 organisers of HZ HB seemed to have a particular concern with the rule of
12 law. Wouldn't you agree?
13 A. Yes, but I'm not sure I'd say that they extended the rule of law
14 to all persons within their jurisdiction.
15 Q. Well, we'll come to that. But certainly it's a remarkable amount
16 of ink and paper that was expended on the establishment of a judicial
18 A. Oh, yes. And not only that, a lot of money and effort spent on
19 various law enforcement agencies, which isn't easy when you have to pay
20 a war as well. So, yes.
21 Q. Well, you raise a good point. In fact, one of the interesting
22 things here is that, almost throughout the lifetime of the HZ HB,
23 everything they were doing was in the context of also conducting an armed
24 conflict, wasn't it?
25 A. Yeah. There was -- yes, there was an armed conflict going on of
1 varying intensities during this entire period.
2 Q. Yes. First against the Serbs, and then later in the conflict with
3 the Muslim forces.
4 A. Yes, although I should -- I should qualify my answer a little bit
5 now that I think about it. The actual fighting doesn't really begin until
6 late March of 1992, and the HZ HB exists already in November. But there's
7 sporadic fighting with the Serbs through much of 1992, and beginning in
8 October of 1992 there's sporadic fighting with ABiH and other Muslim
9 forces, which then becomes steady, open fighting from -- beginning in the
10 spring of 1993 in different places with greatly different intensity; and
11 then extremely intense conflict in the summer and fall of 1993.
12 Q. And in those circumstances, it wouldn't really be surprising,
13 would it, if there was some gap between what they set out to do as
14 recorded in the documents and what they were actually able to achieve on
15 the ground?
16 A. Oh, of course.
17 Q. It wouldn't be surprising if some of the good intentions got lost
18 in the demands of fighting a war.
19 A. Well, I'm not sure I'd put it that way, because that implies that
20 I know of their intentions and that there were good intentions.
21 Q. True.
22 A. So that's a value judgement as well.
23 Q. Well, let's remove the word "good" and just say some of their
24 intentions, then.
25 A. Oh, certainly, I'm sure not everything turn out as planned.
1 Q. All right. If you could -- now, I'd just like to focus on a
2 related issue since we had mentioned the rule of law. Could you please go
3 now to page 22 of your report, and I'm referring to paragraph 51. But
4 this was dealing with the decree on the armed forces; is that right?
5 A. Yes. And this is the original decree on the armed forces --
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. -- before it's revised. This is the original one from the 3rd of
8 July, yes.
9 Q. Yes, I understand. And on the top of the following page, page 23,
10 we see that "every citizen of HZ HB who, in an organised manner and in
11 conformity with international law," and then some other words, "shall be
12 considered a member of the armed forces."
13 So at that early stage we see a reference to international law
14 again, don't we?
15 A. There's a number of references to international law in various
16 decrees and orders all throughout this period. And it's also worth noting
17 that it's an immediate recognition of international law with no
18 subordinate level of government mentioned between them and international
20 Q. Yes. In fact, if you go to the next page, page 24, and paragraph,
21 6-0, there is another reference there to international law and the
22 obligation of the armed forces to respect international law; is that
24 A. Yes, there is.
25 Q. On the following page, page 25, and paragraph 62, we see the
1 decree on the treatment of persons captured in armed fighting, and so on.
2 And, by the way, to save time, Mr. Tomljanovich, I'm not asking for these
3 exhibits to be shown, but if you want to see them, please let me know and
4 I'll be glad to do that. But, again, here the decree stipulates that the
5 persons captured must be treated in accordance with the Geneva
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 Q. On page 54 of your report, in the section where you deal
9 specifically with war crimes offices, in paragraph 138 and following, you
10 deal with the setting up of a commission to investigate war crimes?
11 A. Yes. And there were, I think, at least two of them as well -- it
12 mentions here the Department of Internal Affairs made reference to
13 investigating war crimes. And I know -- I don't know if I mentioned it in
14 this report, but the military counter-intelligence, SIS, also investigated
15 war crimes.
16 Q. And that was a continuing concern with -- throughout the period
17 that you dealt with in your report, wasn't it? The investigations of war
19 A. Yes, although I should add that the references to war crimes in
20 these documents insofar as they are specific, they mention specifically
21 that these are Serb and Muslim war crimes. And in all of the documents
22 I've seen of investigating war crimes from this period, and I've seen,
23 collecting them in the archives, quite a few, it's always with the crimes
24 committed by Serbian and Muslim forces.
25 Q. Well, in that regard, will you please turn to page 86 of your
1 report, would you, Mr. Tomljanovich.
2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President. Mr. President, if I might, just as a
3 procedural matter, I'm reminded that when I tendered the exhibits, we
4 didn't number the report, and to ease the record and for Mr. Murphy's
5 reference, the report should be P 09545, please. Thank you.
6 MR. MURPHY: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.
7 Q. Do you have page 86 of your report, sir?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Page 236.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. This is actually in the middle of a description of a meeting that
12 took place in Citluk on the 29th of April, 1993, about which you gave
13 evidence yesterday. Do you recall?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And paragraph 236, you record that a statement was issued --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- in which there, about five lines down, it says:
18 "We're deeply concerned about the reports of murders and crimes
19 perpetrated by both sides in Central Bosnia and Northern Herzegovina. The
20 appointed commission will be resolute in uncovering the perpetrators from
21 our side, and they will be brought to justice without compromise.
22 Vengeance is not an acceptable excuse for crime, and therefore all members
23 of HVO units are warned of the necessity of maintaining a humane
24 relationship with civilians. Moreover, receiving an order to commit
25 crimes cannot be used as an alibi in court."
1 So I think you'd have to modify the answer you gave me previously,
2 wouldn't you?
3 A. No, I would not, but I would make it clearer. What I was saying,
4 or at least trying to say - if I didn't correctly, I'll state it again and
5 state it more clearly - I never stated that there were not declarations
6 made that war crimes by the Croat side would be investigated. What I
7 said, or what I meant to say if I didn't say it, was that as far as I
8 know, no one was brought to justice.
9 And I've -- with the exception of Croatian SIS documents about the
10 events in Ahmici, I don't think I've ever seen any documents of any
11 investigation during this period of any particular crimes, nor did I --
12 nor -- what you said is certainly true, they did mention this. As far as
13 I know, they never actually did it.
14 Q. But you have, in fact, seen a document in which war crimes are
15 referred to that were not committed against the Croats?
16 A. Oh, yes, I've seen it referred to frequently, but I haven't seen
17 -- aside from, like I say, just off the top of my head, and this goes way
18 beyond what I put together for today, aside from what I saw on the
19 Croatian -- the Republic of Croatia investigating or making inquiries into
20 the events in Ahmici, I don't recall ever seeing any actual investigative
21 material on such crimes or any investigation being carried out.
22 Q. If you would go now, please, with me to page 108 of your report,
23 paragraph 302. We're now talking about the HR HB. "The Adoption of
24 Documents on the Protection and Exercise of Human Freedoms"; do you see
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And, as I understand your report here, what this document does is
3 to adopt in full a large number of the most important international
4 conventions on human rights, if I can broadly say it in that way.
5 Conventions on human rights.
6 A. Yes, it does. It adopts all of those conventions.
7 Q. And finally on this point, if you would go to page 112 and
8 paragraph 314, I think you're dealing here with the first session of the
9 government of HR HB. And about -- just more than a little over halfway,
10 perhaps, down that paragraph, we see again there was a call for all organs
11 of the HR HB to observe international laws of war and human rights.
12 A. Yes, and I believe that was Mr. Boban making that particular
14 Q. Yes. Now, I want to next ask you a number of questions, just a
15 few, really, about some of the positions taken by Mr. Stojic in connection
16 with --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question. You asked
18 the witness about the chapter concerning the war crimes office.
19 You said that you conducted research and that you found no trace
20 of any investigation into war crimes committed by HVO members. In
21 paragraph 139, we can see that this commission was established by the
22 interior affairs department. But with regard to the judicial system and
23 the prosecutors that should exist, because the judicial system was
24 established, was put in place, did you consider that from that point of
25 view? Because this war crimes commission depended on the Ministry of the
1 Interior. And when a crime is committed, then it usually comes under the
2 Ministry of Military Justice or the civilian ministry.
3 Did you look at those different aspects of the question? Because
4 it wasn't because there wasn't an investigation at this level that it
5 didn't exist at another level, for example, in the civilian sector or the
6 military justice system. That's what I'd like to hear from you.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I should clarify a few things first, in
8 case I've given a wrong impression.
9 I've never undertaken any particular study with the purpose of
10 finding whether or not war crimes were investigated and what sort of war
11 crimes were investigated. As part of my duties finding archival records,
12 I've come across quite a few documents from various sorts of law
13 enforcement persons and I've never seen, like I said, aside from the one
14 example of the Croatian authorities looking into Ahmici, I've never seen
15 anything specifically myself, which doesn't mean there wasn't something
16 necessarily. Certainly nothing -- nothing public and nothing in the
17 records I've seen. But certainly these sorts of activities could take
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Murphy. Unless
20 you wanted to finish. Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do apologise, yes.
23 THE WITNESS: I apologise to the interpreters, because I was
24 running ahead and then I was waiting. That's why I stopped for so long.
25 No. All I was trying to say is that I don't know of any such
1 thing having taken place. Now -- and I've looked at quite a few records.
2 An investigation could have been initiated at many different
3 levels, and certainly with other crimes it was, both with -- from the
4 Interior Ministry, from the military prosecutors, from the civilian
5 prosecutors, or from -- I don't know specifically what these -- you know,
6 the commissions could have done as far as initiating legal action. I just
7 know they exist and what it says in the orders establishing them.
8 MR. MURPHY:
9 Q. Well, following up on the President's question, Mr. Tomljanovich,
10 I noticed on a number of occasions during your evidence that you said that
11 it's possible something happened but you didn't necessarily look at the
12 documents in which that would be recorded.
13 A. Yes. And I should state this very clearly to the Court.
14 Everything I'm saying is based on the documentary record which is
15 available to me. Now, that record is not complete. We were never given
16 complete access to all documents which were produced at that time. So
17 it's always possible that there's things which are contained in other
18 records or not recorded which we don't know about.
19 Q. It's also possible that there are certain things contained in
20 documents that you could have looked at but chose not to.
21 A. That's always very possible, although I can assure you I do it in
22 good faith.
23 Q. I'm just trying to establish the facts, Mr. Tomljanovich, that's
24 all. For example, you told us just today, and this is in today's
25 transcript at page 28, line 21, Mr. Scott was asking you some questions
1 about the detention facilities, and you said that you deliberately limited
2 what you looked at because it would be too large of a task. I wrote those
3 words down as you said them. And I suppose my question is: Were there
4 other areas of your report where you deliberately limited what you looked
5 at simply because you thought the task would be too great?
6 A. Yes. And I was very careful with all of this report to try and
7 limit and define the limits of what it was I was trying to accomplish. I
8 only wanted to look at the structures and -- governmental and political
9 structures and processes of Herceg-Bosna in this period. There's a lot of
10 other things which go beyond that which I've been asked questions about,
11 and I've tried my best to answer those questions, but I'm also very much
12 aware that a lot of other evidence -- what I'm presenting is only one
13 small part of this whole trial, and I don't want to spread myself too thin
14 and to engage in areas which would more appropriately be dealt with by
15 someone else.
16 Q. You also testified today that -- this was at page 30, line 4 of
17 the transcript. It followed a question that you'd been asked by Judge
18 Prandler. You said that you didn't look for documents concerning visits
19 by the ICRC and others to the detention facilities, other than the one
20 relating to the visit in August.
21 A. Not in the preparation of this report, no. In this report, I
22 tried to limit myself to the de jure structures and to a few de facto
23 incidents of the structures and processes in action and functioning. I
24 didn't try to cover all of the things which happened with the camps
25 comprehensively. Certainly not.
1 Q. So you didn't think it was a part of your function to explore how
2 the structure of the HZ HB had worked in practice?
3 A. No. As a matter of fact, I did. That's what the second part of
4 my report is all about. It's certainly not intended, however, to be any
5 sort of comprehensive history of Herceg-Bosna, and I've limited myself to
6 those things which I had evidence on which best illustrated the actual de
7 facto functioning of these organs.
8 Q. Is it possible, sir, that when you say -- speak of limiting your
9 search, you limited it to things that you thought would be useful to the
10 Prosecution's case?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. And I'm very much aware, and I have been aware since 1999, of my
14 Rule 68 obligations.
15 Q. Sir, do I take that as an indication that you would work with the
16 Prosecutors to decide what materials should be disclosed under Rule 68?
17 A. Well, what we did is, if I uncover any material which I think may
18 be exculpatory to any of the accused - not just in this case but in all
19 cases, with all perpetrator groups - I have a duty to report that, and I
20 report that to the lawyers responsible for the case.
21 Q. All right. By the way, since we've got back on -- I didn't really
22 intend to, but since we're back for a moment on your work with the OTP,
23 before beginning your evidence, have you been following this case as it's
24 been going along?
25 A. Somewhat. I haven't had the opportunity to watch very much of
1 it. I think I caught a little bit of the opening arguments, but only a
2 little bit. I was here physically watching about an hour, maybe an hour
3 and a half, of Mr. Kljuic's testimony. I'm aware of which witnesses are
4 being called, even though I've been busy working on this sort of -- on
5 this report and my testimony, I'm certainly kept informed of who is coming
6 in. And aside from what I hear in the office, it's also reported every
7 day in the news -- well, not every day necessarily, but frequently in the
8 newspapers as well.
9 Q. Have you assisted at all in the preparation of other witnesses to
11 A. Yes. I helped Mr. Donia with some of his exhibits and his maps.
12 Q. When you say helped him, you mean you discussed the facts with
14 A. No. He was in San Diego much of the time and he had to send them
15 here. And I also suggested some particular maps and I had to find another
16 problem -- he used quite a few here. He's testified many times here
17 before the Tribunal. He had quite a few maps and he didn't have the ERN
18 numbers for. So I did that and I did a lot of clerical things for him.
19 Q. I'm not really so much concerned with clerical things. When I
20 speak of preparing witnesses, I mean have you been concerned with
21 preparing them in the sense of advising them about their testimony or the
22 facts or things of --
23 A. No, I haven't been present, I don't think. I don't think I've
24 been present. No, I'm sure I haven't been present for any witness
1 Q. All right.
2 A. In this case.
3 Q. All right. I just have a few more questions. Hopefully we can
4 finish by 7.00 with my cross-examination.
5 Regarding Mr. Stojic, could you please go to page 26 of your
6 report for a moment. And in paragraph 65, we find there Mr. Stojic
7 issuing a mandatory directive "to provide consistency and uniform
8 application of disciplinary regulations." Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, and I remember that particular decree.
10 Q. And Mr. Stojic was insisting that there be consistency in the way
11 in which the laws should be applied, wasn't he?
12 A. Yes, and he had a list of appropriate punishments for particular
14 Q. On page 47 of your report, if you would go there, please. Just at
15 the top there - this is midway through the paragraph - you refer to Mr.
16 Stojic reporting on military issues. This is at the top of the page. Do
17 you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that he did so on the 29th of September, 1992.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. "His reporting included the importance of setting up military
22 courts and military prosecutors' offices for the sake of efficiency and
23 military discipline"; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Page 51, please, of your report, paragraph 129. Again, we have a
1 session of the HVO on the 28th of December, 1992. Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Mr. Stojic reports that the military courts are still not
4 functioning; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And about six lines up from the bottom of that page, he argues
7 that the military police could not function without the courts. Yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that if the courts didn't begin to function soon, he would
10 release all the prisoners.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And there, I think we could find other references also to Mr.
13 Stojic being very concerned that the system of military justice should
14 work efficiently. Would you agree?
15 A. Yes, and that was one of his responsibilities.
16 Q. Yes. It was a matter with which, as far as the documents reflect,
17 he was personally very concerned.
18 A. Yes. Well, I should -- I should -- "concerned" implies that I
19 know something about his state of mind. I can say that he certainly spent
20 a lot of time dealing with these issues.
21 Q. Have you ever had access, sir, to the archives of the prosecutor
22 or the courts of the HZ HB?
23 A. I personally have not worked with those documents, although I
24 believe, and I'm not sure, that a number of those documents were turned
25 over to the Prosecutor. I believe -- actually, once I think about it, I
1 know that other persons who I know from my office have looked at those
2 materials. Now that I think about it, yes. But I haven't worked with
3 those materials.
4 Q. So you did not look at any of those documents for the purposes of
5 compiling this report that you've produced for this case?
6 A. I don't think so, no, unless some of the other documents we got
7 from the Bosnian federation came from that collection and I mistook them
8 as coming from a different collection. But I don't think I did cite
9 anything from that collection. And I certainly didn't make a special
10 effort to systematically review that collection for the purposes of this
12 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, if I may have a moment to confer with
13 Ms. Nozica.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I think I've concluded my portion of the
17 cross-examination, and if this would be a convenient moment, Ms. Nozica
18 will resume for a short time tomorrow morning.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's almost 7.00. I'd
20 like to inform the parties that it is quite possible that next week, on
21 Wednesday, instead of sitting in the morning we will be sitting in the
22 afternoon. I'm waiting for confirmation of this from the Trial Chamber
23 sitting in the afternoon. And they won't be sitting, which means that
24 instead -- I know that you'll prefer working in the morning, but instead
25 of working in the morning on Wednesday, we'll shall be working in the
1 afternoon. There's the Plenary meeting in the morning, and since the
2 Judges attend that, we're going to sit in the afternoon in order to
3 perform our duties and regulate the week. So I wanted to give you prior
4 notice of that, not to surprise you with it, spring a surprise on you at
5 the last moment.
6 Having said that, we have reached 7.00. I wish everybody a
7 pleasant evening, and we'll reconvene tomorrow at 2.15.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of
10 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.