Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6124

1 Wednesday, 6 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

7 the case number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Case

9 number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Before I give the floor to Mr. Scott to use up the two hours that

12 remain for him, the registrar forwarded Mr. Karnavas's request to us that

13 concerns preliminary questions put to the witness as an expert witness.

14 We have already orally rejected this request.

15 The Chamber, Mr. Karnavas, is somewhat surprised given that, in

16 spite of our oral rejection of this request, written submissions were

17 provided to the registry. Is there any explanation for this, since you

18 gave this request to registry and we dealt with this request orally last

19 time it was mentioned? The one that was forwarded to the registry is

20 dated the 4th of September, 2006.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not sure I understand, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll repeat what I said. Mr.

23 Karnavas, before the beginning of the examination of the witness, you took

24 the floor and you told us that before the examination you wanted the

25 Chamber to grant you leave to put a series of written questions to the

Page 6125

1 person in question. There were 60 questions in total. The Judges decided

2 otherwise. We decided that it was -- there was no reason to follow such

3 procedure. And I did tell you that in the case of the cross-examination,

4 you had the possibility of putting these 60 questions to the witness. But

5 this morning we have discovered that you provided the registry with this

6 document which was filed as a motion or a written submission.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I can explain. It was -- that's the same

8 submission that I filed in court, Your Honour, and as I understand it,

9 these submissions also have to be filed electronically, so that may be the

10 reason. But it's the same submission. It's nothing in addition to that.

11 I apologise if it's caused any concern.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you. Thank

13 you, Mr. Karnavas.

14 Mr. Scott, you have two hours at your disposal. If you take up

15 less time, the Trial Chamber will be grateful.

16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

17 afternoon.


19 Examination by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

20 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, we ended yesterday talking about the HVO

21 Herceg-Bosna, again, structures and processes dealing with the operation

22 of various prisons and camps and we'd already gone through approximately

23 five documents dealing with the establishment of the camps, some of them.

24 Let me go forward with that same topic.

25 After some of the situations and conditions and circumstances in

Page 6126

1 these camps became more widely known, did your work -- did your report

2 include a consideration of what HVO processes and structures were involved

3 in dealing with the camps and prisons at that point?

4 A. Yes, it did. I took a look at their -- the reaction of the HVO

5 organs to these problems, much of which was discussed in the meetings of

6 the HVO HZ HB, amongst other places.

7 Q. Could I next ask you to look at Exhibit P 03673. As soon as you

8 have that, can you tell us what that is, please.

9 A. This is a statement which was forwarded to all media, or released

10 to all media, which is forwarding a message or a written response which

11 Mr. Prlic gave to the Prime Minister of -- or the Deputy Prime Minister of

12 Croatia, Mr. Mate Granic, on the 23rd of July, 1993, which is in response

13 to a letter of Mr. Granic's which -- excuse me. That isn't. Yes, it is

14 in response to Mr. Granic's letter.

15 Q. All right. Are the two principal topics or subjects of this

16 letter the circumstances concerning the detention camps and also the

17 movement of humanitarian convoys?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can I ask you to direct your attention to the bottom part of the

20 first page, starting with the words "The assault by Muslim forces ..." Do

21 you see that?

22 A. Yes. "The assault by Muslim forces on the region around Mostar

23 compelled the armed forces of the HVO and its military police to assume

24 preventive measures against all members of the so-called army of BiH and

25 its active duty and reserve force in the area of combat activities. There

Page 6127

1 were no special detention camps formed for these persons. Instead, the

2 following facilities were used: Premises of the former military college,

3 the nearby military base of the former JNA in Rodoc near Mostar (so-called

4 'Heliodrom'), as well as facilities once used for mass accommodation of

5 JNA soldiers in Dretelj. It is necessary to keep in mind that these

6 persons are all men in the age suitable for military service."

7 Q. All right. Let me stop you there. Going back to the earlier part

8 of that paragraph on the previous page, were you familiar with the

9 circumstances, situation, in early July, 1993, in which large numbers of

10 Muslim men were arrested and detained?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And does that appear to be what is being described here in terms

13 of referring to the preventive measures against all members of the

14 so-called army of BiH?

15 A. That's precisely what's being referred to here, the detention of

16 Muslim males in the Heliodrom and other locations.

17 Q. Let me go back, then, further to the next -- again, back to the

18 second page where you left off. Do you see the passage that starts "On

19 the 22nd of June ..."?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you pick up at that point, please.

22 A. "On the 22nd of June this year, more than 200 persons were

23 released from the 'Heliodrom'. It is necessary to point out that all

24 other persons (women, children and the elderly), who had been temporarily

25 displaced outside of the town for the purpose of securing them from active

Page 6128

1 combat activities (Article 49 of the Geneva Convention on the Protection

2 of Civilians During War), were returned" and here illegible word,

3 "addresses."

4 Q. Let's stop there.

5 A. End quote.

6 Q. Can you assist the Judges in reference to the circumstances or the

7 time when women, children, and elderly had been held for a time, when that

8 had occurred approximately during this general period of time?

9 A. I believe it would have been early -- I'm not -- actually, I'm not

10 sure exactly of the time. I know that occurred in June, and I believe

11 there were also detentions in early May of 1993 in Mostar itself.

12 Q. Now, before we leave this document, to continue on schedule, can I

13 ask you, although we're talking primarily about camps, since we have this

14 document, if you look at the latter part of that document, on the bottom

15 of that page and continuing on to the next page, does it also touch upon

16 the issue of humanitarian convoys?

17 A. Yes, it does. It makes reference to the Makarska agreement, with

18 is an agreement which had been reached not long before this regarding the

19 free passage of humanitarian aid.

20 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether that was a matter of some

21 international attention as of midsummer of 1993, that is, getting

22 humanitarian aid into the Mostar region?

23 A. Yes, and particularly into the eastern half of Mostar. It was

24 very much a pressing issue for the international community active there.

25 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether any international pressure had

Page 6129

1 been brought on the Republic of Croatia to gain access, humanitarian

2 access to East Mostar?

3 A. Off the top of my head I can't recall if this was done at that

4 time.

5 Q. Let us go on, please, to Exhibit 35 -- P 03560. Can you tell us

6 what that is, please.

7 A. These are translations of minutes of the 46th session of the HVO

8 HZ HB held on the 19th of July, 1993, and presided by Jadranko Prlic.

9 Q. Can I direct your attention, please, to page 4 under item 7 --

10 beginning at item 7.

11 A. Yes. Would you like me to read out the passage?

12 Q. Yes, please.

13 A. It's an important passage. "After a discussion of the request by

14 the HVO of Capljina municipality to relocate prisoners and a discussion of

15 the status and accommodation conditions of prisoners and persons in

16 isolation, with the aim of improving their accommodation conditions and

17 overcoming the newly arisen situation, unanimous approval was given to

18 adopt the following:

19 "Conclusions.

20 "1. Security accommodation conditions, material, and medical

21 support for prisoners of war in accordance with the Geneva Convention

22 relevant to the Treatment of Prisoners of War."

23 Q. "Relative."

24 A. And -- oh, sorry.

25 Q. That's okay. Go ahead.

Page 6130

1 A. I think I said "relevant" and not "relative".

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yeah. Sorry about that.

4 Q. Go ahead.

5 A. Moving on into the next paragraph:

6 "If the existing accommodation conditions are not satisfactory,

7 the head of the department of justice and general administration, in

8 coordination with the Defence Department and the Department of the

9 Interior shall designate new sites and transfer prisoners of war."

10 Next paragraph:

11 "The Defence Department shall be in charge of --," and there is a

12 question as to whether this word is "their", "-- stay at the new sites."

13 Q. All right. And then before putting some additional questions to

14 you about this, on the following page, page 2, a working group to address

15 these matters was formed, including among its members, as stated in this

16 document, Berislav Pusic?

17 A. Yes. Working group to visit Capljina and inspect the conditions

18 of the prisoners in Capljina included Berislav Pusic, Darinko Tadic, who

19 was from the Office of the Displaced Persons and Refugees, and the

20 department head, Zoran Buntic.

21 Q. Now, moving forward from the two documents we've looked at so far,

22 can you give the Judges sort of an overview of what your research showed

23 in terms of what happened then in the wake of these documents in

24 connection with the HVO dealings and handling of matters concerning the

25 camps as of the end of July, 1993?

Page 6131

1 A. Well, these inspections were carried out. There was a meeting, I

2 believe, soon afterwards regarding that and yet more bodies and

3 institutions were created to deal with this situation.

4 Q. Let me next ask you to look at Exhibit P 03565 --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- which you may have looked at previously for other

7 circumstances, but we can look at it again, particularly paragraphs 1 and

8 2.

9 A. Yes. This is a decision of the HVO HZ HB from the same day as

10 this meeting, from the 19th of July, with the name of Jadranko Prlic at

11 the bottom and his signature, repeating the same decision to form the

12 working group, and the other conclusions which were met in this meeting

13 are reissued here as a decision.

14 Q. All right. And can I direct your attention to paragraph 7 of that

15 document, and can you give the Judges any assistance as to why it was that

16 the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Croatia needs to be

17 informed concerning the entire problem?

18 A. Well, two reasons. One, at this point already Mate Granic had

19 taken an interest in these problems, as we saw from the earlier exhibit,

20 and also because the international community had been putting pressure on

21 the Republic of Croatia over these issues, and it was their problem as

22 well.

23 Q. During this time period, did people involved with running these

24 prisons continue to make reports about conditions and circumstances that

25 existed at these camps and prisons?

Page 6132

1 A. Yes, quite a few. And for the purposes of my report, I've only

2 cited a few of those reports, and those reports which go to the top level

3 of the HVO -- top levels of the HVO HZ HB.

4 Q. All right. As one example, can I ask you to please go to Exhibit

5 P 04352. And as soon as you have that, sir, can you tell us what it is?

6 A. This is a letter from the director or warden of the Heliodrom

7 camp, Mr. Stanko Bozic, to Mr. Bruno Stojic on the 20th of August, 1993,

8 and he's informing him of the results of a visit of the International

9 Committee of the Red Cross to that particular detention centre.

10 Q. Directing your attention to the last sentence in the second

11 paragraph, will you read that sentence and the three bullet points,

12 please.

13 A. Yes. "Mr. Franko pointed to the following wrongdoings in

14 violation of the Geneva Conventions:

15 "1. Sending detainees to work.

16 "2. The quality and quantity of foods (they request its

17 improvement); and

18 "3. Bad conditions in solitary cells."

19 Q. Continue on, please.

20 A. Okay. Next paragraph:

21 "Regarding the violations of the Geneva Conventions, Mr. Franko

22 warned and obligated me as the warden to make sure that these wrongdoings

23 are not repeated in the future or we would be reported to the

24 International Tribunal. After the Red Cross's departure, we were not able

25 to remedy these wrongdoings. On the contrary, the number of wounded and

Page 6133

1 killed at the workplace is increasing by the day."

2 Q. All right. Thank you.

3 A. Period, closed quote.

4 Q. And did there continue, then, to be an exchange of information and

5 correspondence among the senior HVO leadership and bodies concerning these

6 issues?

7 A. Yes. This was discussed quite a great deal after this.

8 Q. Could I direct your attention next to Exhibit --

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I ask a question. Can you tell us, Mr.

10 Tomljanovich, who decided on the fact that prisoners were taken to work?

11 Was this the governor's decision or, as one must assume, reading him,

12 someone else's over whom he had no control?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. That appears to be the case. I didn't go into

14 that sort of detail in the report, and I haven't reviewed any of those

15 records for this report, but I know from what I've seen in the past that

16 quite frequently prisoners were taken out of camps for work at the front

17 lines in opposition to the wishes of the camp director. And there's a

18 great deal of documentation on that.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A very rapid question that I'd

21 like to put to you. I don't want to interrupt the Prosecution, but it

22 seems important to me.

23 The document you examined has a certain number on it, and this

24 document is a document that follows on the -- after other documents. Have

25 you been able to examine all the documents from this prison? It's a

Page 6134

1 document that follows on another form of correspondence. Is this the only

2 document you saw, or were you able to examine other documents?

3 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that this is not the only document from Mr.

4 Bozic from that year. Whether or not we possess a complete set of his

5 correspondence for that year I just don't know.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my last question: After

7 this letter that was addressed to Mr. Stojic was forwarded, was there a

8 response? Did you find a reply from Mr. Stojic, a response to this

9 letter, which is in fact a letter that calls for a reply?

10 THE WITNESS: No, I did not, which doesn't mean that one did not

11 exist. But I did not see one.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have another

13 question for you.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, in the same letter we can

15 see that it says that the number of wounded and killed at their place of

16 work increased from day to day when you were involved in your

17 investigations. Did you find out whether they were wounded at work, or

18 was this something that was inflicted on them? Were they wounded as a

19 result of an accident, or were they maltreated? How is it that they were

20 wounded or killed?

21 THE WITNESS: I'm not entirely sure which particular incidents

22 happened in which camp in which particular period of time, although I know

23 that both incidents occurred rather frequently; that prisoners were

24 wounded and killed both while being taken out to work and there were

25 incidents in the camps as well. But as to what would have been going on

Page 6135

1 in the Heliodrom at that particular time, I'm not sure.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.

3 MR. SCOTT: If I might just represent to the Court, the Court, of

4 course, will be hearing a number of witnesses, including victims, people

5 who were held in the camps who were taken out on work details and will

6 tell in much more detail about these matters.

7 Q. If we could then next go, please, to Exhibit P 03663. And as soon

8 as you have that, sir, will you tell us what that is and how, again, it

9 relates to the current topic in your report?

10 A. Yes. These are decisions adopted at a meeting of the -- in the

11 military police administration of the HVO in Ljubuski on the 22nd of July,

12 1993, and the minutes are written up the next day, and signed by officer

13 Zvonko Vidovic regarding this meeting at which the placing of prisoners in

14 camps was addressed.

15 Q. And does it indicate in the first paragraph any senior officials

16 who were involved in this meeting?

17 A. Yes. This meeting included, aside from the chief of the

18 administration, Mr. Coric, all the chiefs of all the departments of the

19 military police administration were there.

20 Q. Now, can I direct your attention, please, to the third paragraph

21 starting with the word "Consequently." Would you read that, please?

22 A. "Consequently, all those persons who have been detained but

23 against whom criminal proceedings have not been initiated (or against whom

24 a criminal report has not been filed) are, according to the chief of the

25 military police administration, unknown to our department. This refers

Page 6136

1 solely to the large number of Muslims who have been brought unselectively

2 to the SVIZ," in brackets the extension of that acronym, "(Central

3 Military Remand Prison) buildings and who have since been forgotten."

4 Q. Does that paragraph go on to indicate that in fact approximately

5 2.000 of these prisoners or detained persons had been interviewed, none of

6 whom were "interesting from the standpoint of crime"?

7 A. Yes. That's exactly what it says.

8 Q. And was there anything further indicated in this document as to

9 whether the military police were responsible for the handling of these

10 persons?

11 A. Further down in the same page, at the very bottom they state,

12 according to the military police who met there, apparently, that it was

13 the duty of the Department of Justice to appoint a warden and to make all

14 the decisions in regard to these detainees.

15 Q. Let me ask you to go next to Exhibit P 04756. Can you tell us --

16 sorry. Can you tell us what that is, please?

17 A. This is the minutes of a meeting held on the 2nd of September,

18 1993, at 9.00 in the morning. And in English it's called a meeting of the

19 heads of the Defence Department, and I'm not positive, but I believe this

20 is what, in B/C/S, they would call a kolidzija or a collegium of the top

21 of a department.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. Which would be the department head and his assistants.

24 Q. Apart from the department head and his assistants, does this

25 indicate that the deputy chief of the HVO of the Main Staff also attended?

Page 6137

1 A. Yes. In the place of the commander of the HVO Main Staff.

2 Q. And can you tell the Judges, as of September -- early September,

3 1993, who was the Deputy Chief of the Main Staff?

4 A. I'm not sure if at that point it was Tole. He was later. Oh, no,

5 it would have been Mr. -- at this point it would have been Mr. Petkovic, I

6 believe.

7 Q. Now --

8 A. Although I'm not positive, because the terminology changes, or

9 it's difficult to follow.

10 Q. And, in fact, just in passing, that very confusion is discussed in

11 this document on pages 2 and 3 of the --

12 A. Oh, yes, of course.

13 Q. We're not going to spend our time on that now, given --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- the time.

16 A. Yes, of course, under number item 1, I'm sorry, Deputy Head of

17 Staff was Mr. Matic.

18 Q. All right. Let me direct your attention particularly to item

19 number 3 on page 4. And does this involve a report by the military police

20 administration and by Mr. Coric?

21 A. Yes, it does. It states in the middle of the -- well, in the

22 beginning of the second paragraph, that Mr. Coric put forward some of the

23 problems which the military police had been encountering. And at the

24 bottom, it says -- well, in the next paragraph --

25 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment, sir. Before you get to that,

Page 6138

1 let's go back up. Does it say, "Following Coric's contribution, Head,

2 Stojic, made the following propose"?

3 A. Yes. And the proposals he made was: "All changes to be made with

4 respect to the organisation in all different services must be submitted by

5 the next board meeting."

6 Q. And then the next line?

7 A. Then the next line is Mr. Coric mentioning some of the problems of

8 the military police.

9 Q. All right. Could I ask you, then, to skip the rest of that

10 paragraph and go to the portion starting with "Military prisons ..."

11 A. "Military prisons are another example of very bad work. The head

12 took the floor and said: --" Closed quote for a second. I should explain

13 that the head of the department at this point would be Mr. Stojic.

14 Back to the quote, and it's in quotation marks in the document:

15 "My opinion is that we have two military prisons, Heliodrom and

16 the military prison at Ljubuski. As for the other places where detainees

17 are held (Gabela and Dretelj), I do not consider them as military

18 facilities and refuse to personally endorse the work of these

19 institutions." Period, close the quotation marks in the original and

20 close quotation.

21 Q. Following that statement by Mr. Stojic, did the Assistant Minister

22 for Security, Mr. Lucic, make a response to that?

23 A. Yes, he does. Mr. Lucic then responds at the beginning of the

24 next page, and this is also in quotes:

25 "I believe that we cannot just pass over the problem of the Gabela

Page 6139

1 and Dretelj prisons like that. That can cause us a lot of harm. We must

2 say precisely who is behind these prisons, who is doing that, and what

3 measures we can take with respect to that."

4 Q. And following that discussion, can you just, in the interests of

5 time, take us to -- was a conclusion then reached directing some further

6 action to be taken?

7 A. Yes. The conclusion reads:

8 "The SIS, the Military Police Administration, and the Health

9 Sector shall draft separate reports on the work of Dretelj and Gabela

10 prisons and submit them to the Head of the Defence Department by

11 Wednesday, 8 September 1993."

12 Q. And I ask you, please, next to go to Exhibit P 03995.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. You've

14 just broached an interesting subject, and I'd like to get some specifics

15 here.

16 On the basis of the document that you've just read out and that

17 you mention in your report as well, it appears that there are two types of

18 prisons - military prisons and civilian prisons. The military prisons are

19 Heliodrom and Ljubuski, and on the other hand, the more civilian prisons

20 are Gabela and Dretelj.

21 On the basis of what Mr. Coric says, he does not want to assume

22 responsibility for the civilian prisons, if we can call them that, rather

23 than the military ones.

24 Now, if that is the case, your studies and your report, do they

25 allow you to say who was in charge of Gabela and Dretelj? Under whose

Page 6140

1 authority did they come if it was not under the authority of Mr. Coric?

2 Who was it then?

3 Allow the witness to answer first.

4 THE WITNESS: First of all, I believe Mr. Coric first mentioned

5 that military prisons were an example of bad work. Following that, Mr.

6 Stojic voiced the opinion that only two of the prisons, the Heliodrom and

7 Ljubuski - and he says in his opinion - were military, and the other two

8 he did not consider to be military.

9 Now, this is Mr. Stojic's opinion of the situation at this time,

10 although as we'll see elsewhere in these documents, the persons involved

11 can't necessarily agree as to who's responsible for what.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the transcript, in the

13 translation it says Stojic, but in the document is it Coric or Stojic?

14 THE WITNESS: Let me just take a look quickly at the original.

15 Yes, here we are. Now, in the original document, this appears at page 3.

16 And I should note as well that the original document we have here, the

17 pages were stamped out of order, but it's not a problem because there were

18 page numbers at the top and you can reconstruct the correct order.

19 Yes, there we are. If we go up to underneath the underlined

20 section, it says that Mr. Coric is talking about the various problems of

21 the military police, and Mr. Coric goes -- his speaking goes all the way

22 down to the next paragraph, where he says there's also very poor work in

23 the military prisons. And then the next thing that is said is that the

24 floor is given -- the head of the department said -- or the floor was

25 given to the head of the department, who said, and the quote which follows

Page 6141

1 beginning with "I consider that we only have two military prisons" is the

2 quote from Mr. Stojic.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So who says "In my opinion," is

5 it Coric or Stojic? "In my opinion," who says that?

6 THE WITNESS: That would be Mr. Stojic.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may just check if I understand correctly.

9 What then happens, it seems, is that Mr. Lucic said, "Watch it, hold it,

10 we cannot leave this aside." And the fact that then reports are requested

11 for Stojic I interpret as him having, to some extent, at least

12 provisionally changed his mind and showing -- to be showing a preparedness

13 to know better about Gabela and Dretelj also.

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe that's absolutely correct; that they

15 decided in the end to look into these things, despite the initial opinion

16 voiced by Mr. Stojic, because of the misgivings of Mr. Lucic, who was the

17 Assistant Department Head for Security at that time.


19 Q. All right. If we can then go to Exhibit P 03995, continuing with

20 Mr. Stojic. Can you tell us what that document is?

21 A. This document -- I'm looking at the same one, I'm not sure. No,

22 I'm not looking -- I'm looking at a different translation, but I believe

23 it's the same document.

24 This --

25 Q. Well, if you look, please -- if you have any doubt, look at what's

Page 6142

1 on the screen.

2 A. I'm going to look at the screen, yes. Thank you. It's a Defence

3 Department order, and I believe if I look at the bottom if I'm looking at

4 the same translation, from Mr. Bruno Stojic. Yes, this is the same

5 document, just a different numbered translation.

6 Mr. Stojic issues an order to bring more control and order into

7 the detention facilities, and that -- he orders that as at the 10th of

8 August, and -- shall I read this out?

9 Q. Yes, under "Order."

10 A. "I hereby order: As of the 10th of August, 1993, a commission

11 authorised by the Department of Defence is to take charge of all detention

12 units and prisons in which prisoners of war and military detainees are

13 held. It will be composed of the following:

14 "1. Berislav Pusic - chief of the offices for exchanges,

15 president."

16 Q. I'm going to stop you there, Mr. Tomljanovich, because of time.

17 The other names the Judges will be able to see, of course.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But I have a question. We come here upon a term

19 which we have, I think, encountered before, the meaning of which to me is

20 not quite clear, and that is "military detainees." Persons detained by

21 the military, whatever, or military persons in detention who are not POWs,

22 or what does it mean?

23 THE WITNESS: I would assume that it does not mean prisoners of

24 war.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's for sure.

Page 6143

1 THE WITNESS: Since in this context they're separated as a

2 separate category from prisoners of war. My assumption, although it's not

3 defined here, is that these are detainees being kept by the military, most

4 likely -- and most of them probably being men of military age who weren't

5 necessarily military.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But could that not mean as well

7 military detainees of the HVO?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, it could. And as a matter of fact, now that

9 you mention it, they did keep -- in all of the detention centres I believe

10 there were still their own prisoners as well.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is that the question that

12 Counsel Nozica wanted to ask?

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour,

14 precisely, because that's what it says in the Croatian version, prisoners

15 of wars and military detainees. And you intervened quite rightly, Your

16 Honour, and said that the military detainees were in fact HVO members who

17 may be in detention because they committed some crimes or misdemeanors.

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Although my colleague said that we needn't read the other names, but I do

20 think that something should be said about those names, all the more so

21 that some of the names are on the Prosecutor's list of witnesses for

22 testimony.

23 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I'm not going to -- sorry. I'm not

24 going to use the two hours that I have to discuss that. If the Court

25 wants to ask that, you certainly can, or if counsel wants to ask it during

Page 6144

1 cross-examination, he can. But I'd like to use my time as wisely as

2 possible.

3 Q. After listing the names of this working group, sir, can you

4 indicate what the -- what instructions were given to this group, what it

5 is they were supposed to do?

6 A. On the second page it states that they're authorised and have the

7 duty to make a list of all detained persons, classify them in categories,

8 and -- and I'll quote directly from here on: "Place under its control all

9 of the detention units or prisons and resolve the matters of functioning

10 and securing, regulate the questions of release from prison, exchange of

11 prisoners, et cetera." Well, no, "et cetera," that's a period for the

12 abbreviation, I'm sorry. "And all other important questions related to

13 the work and functioning of detention units and prisons."

14 Q. Did Mr. Stojic --

15 A. Period, end of quote.

16 Q. Did Mr. Stojic then indicate who it was who was responsible for

17 making sure this area was carried out -- excuse me, these matter, these

18 directions were carried out?

19 A. Well, he instructs wardens or commanders of detention units and

20 prisons to follow the instructions and orders of this committee and to

21 work according to the structure they prescribe.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just draw attention to a lack of clarity in

23 terminology, because the document speaks of commission, commission,

24 commission, and then suddenly we find the term "command." Is there a

25 difference also in the B/C/S, and how is it to be explained?

Page 6145

1 THE WITNESS: Where is it you see the word "command"?

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: In the last paragraph before "forwarded to." It

3 says: "They must carry out the command's instruction." I read this

4 "command" as referring to the commission, in fact. And is it called

5 command suddenly because it has power to give orders or --

6 THE WITNESS: Well, let me see what it says in the Croatian. In

7 Croatian, it -- they use the word "komisija" consistently, that the

8 directors and commanders of detention units and prisons are duty-bound to

9 carry out the orders of the commission or to work under the scheme set

10 forward by the commission. So "commission" is used quite consistently in

11 the original.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: With due respect I contradict. I find the word

13 "komisija" once in this last paragraph, at the end. And at the end of

14 the English text I also find the word "commission". This is the line

15 above. It must be a different -- "napitusa" -- no, it's also "komisija".

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's also consistent in the original.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you're an expert on HVO

18 structures. Now we're dealing with structures here. We're dealing with

19 the structures of the prison, in fact. And this document establishes a

20 commission composed of a number of members, and according to the document,

21 it seems that this commission exerts control over the detention facility.

22 And the last paragraph seems to indicate that this commission issues

23 commands, instructions, orders to the commanders of the prison.

24 Now, if we look at structure here, if we look at the structure,

25 the institution, isn't there an ad hoc commission in charge of controlling

Page 6146

1 what is happening in the prisons?

2 THE WITNESS: Do you mean prior to this order or as a result of

3 this order?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Afterwards, as a result.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, and it would be this commission. Mr. Stojic is

6 authorising them to -- he's transferring these powers to this commission.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that Mr. Stojic

8 is transferring his powers to this commission, but the director or warden

9 of the prison, is he placed under the control of the commission? I'd like

10 to hear from the expert what he thinks.

11 THE WITNESS: I suspect, given the wording of the very final

12 paragraph, that it was Mr. Stojic's intention that the commission -- that

13 the various directors of the various detention facilities follow the

14 orders and instructions of this commission. Now, that doesn't necessarily

15 mean that they're subordinate to them in the hierarchical structure, but

16 he's giving them the authority to give orders to and establish new

17 structures to this particular commission, and their authority has -- in

18 those areas which he outlines, it has to be respected by -- their

19 authority has to be respected by the various commanders.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Judges will have

21 an opportunity of going back to that question in due course.

22 Mr. Scott.


24 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, can you tell the Judges, during this period of

25 time, as of August and early September of 1993, did you find anyone, any

Page 6147

1 organisation or person within the HVO structure, who was willing to take

2 responsibility for what was happening at these camps?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Can we go next to Exhibit P 04841.

5 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, before Mr. Scott does that, the last --

6 the last question he put to the witness is one that clearly calls for a

7 legal conclusion on the part of the witness which he's not qualified to

8 give, and it's -- it's simply not a proper question to put somebody -- to

9 somebody who's simply analysing documents, Your Honour, to put -- the

10 Court is quite capable of reading these documents and drawing its own

11 legal conclusions, and I would ask that the question and answer be

12 stricken from the record.

13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'll rephrase the question if that's --

14 if that's necessary. I believe that he can, in fact, what Mr. -- excuse

15 me?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges saw the question.

17 They saw Mr. Murphy's intervention. So we will take note of that.

18 MR. SCOTT: Let me rephrase the question, in light of Mr. Murphy's


20 Q. Sir, in your review of the documentation, did you come across any

21 senior HVO official or body which was -- who stood up -- of which stood up

22 and took responsibility for what was happening in these camps at that

23 time? If you remember such a document --

24 A. Yeah. No one takes full responsibility. People undertake actions

25 to do something about the situation, but no one says explicitly "The full

Page 6148

1 responsibility is ours," as far as I can remember.

2 Q. With that in mind, please, can we then go to P 04841.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And tell us, first of all, what that is.

5 A. These are the minutes of a working meeting of the -- well, now

6 they're starting to call it the cabinet of the HR HB, or the HR HB.

7 Q. What's the date?

8 A. 6 September 1993.

9 Q. Both Mr. Prlic and Mr. Stojic are at this meeting?

10 A. Mr. Prlic and Mr. Stojic are both at this meeting.

11 Q. All right. Would you go to the bottom of page 1 under what says

12 "Ad.", A-d period, "1.1" and reads what follows?

13 A. Yes. "To 1. On the basis of verbal reports and insights gained

14 into the manner of executing punishments and the conditions of detention

15 of persons captured as active-duty and reserve enemy forces and persons

16 preparing an armed rebellion, the situation was deemed unsatisfactory --"

17 or sorry, "declared unsatisfactory and harmful to the reputation and

18 interests of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna."

19 Shall I continue?

20 Q. Please.

21 A. Next paragraph:

22 "It was also concluded that the responsibility for the present

23 situation does not lie with the HVO of the HZ HB (Government of the HR

24 HB). However, in order to avoid the situation being used in ways that are

25 adverse to the political and other interests of the HR HB, valid

Page 6149

1 principles of International Law of War and International Humanitarian Law

2 need to be observed in executing punishments and implementing other

3 measures."

4 Q. All right. Now, does the document then go on to reach certain

5 conclusions, a list of, I believe, three conclusions, as to what should be

6 done or what should follow from this meeting?

7 A. Yes, it does, and specific persons are tasked with specific

8 assignments.

9 Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you to go through all of them,

10 but if I can ask you to look at one example, to point number 3.

11 A. Yes. Shall I read the --

12 Q. Yes, please.

13 A. "3. In order to improve the conditions of accommodation and diet

14 of detainees, the Office for Expelled Persons, Refugees and Displaced

15 Persons is tasked to ensure the necessary quantities of food, personal

16 hygiene items, and, if possible, equipment and material needed for

17 accommodation (blankets, mats, et cetera)."

18 Q. Can I next ask you to look at P 05104.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know that time is precious,

20 but I want to go back to this document. I want to have another look at

21 the paragraph before the conclusion "At the same time ..." Could you read

22 out that paragraph, the one that you haven't read out yet, but please read

23 it out because it seems to be of interest and in the interests of justice.


25 "At the same time, distinction needs to be made between penal and

Page 6150

1 correctional organisations for the detention of persons subject to

2 criminal proceedings or persons against whom a final judgement has been

3 pronounced (military and civilian prisons), and centres for the detention

4 of prisoners of war."

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have read out

6 this paragraph. You have examined it. You have studied it. As an expert

7 of such structures, what sort of conclusion did you arrive at?

8 THE WITNESS: The conclusion I arrived at was, reading this, also

9 following what we saw earlier with the meeting of the kolidzija of the

10 Department of Defence, that it wasn't clear to the people in the areas of

11 the highest responsibility -- or there wasn't a clear distinction made,

12 despite the fact there should have been according to laws, there was not a

13 clear distinction made between facilities which were penal or correctional

14 facilities in which persons are kept for criminal reasons and other

15 persons, prisoners of war. So they were detaining prisoners of war and --

16 and prisoners, criminal prisoners, in the same prisons.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Does this alternative not show that they forget

18 about the whole category, namely, what we had before, the military

19 detainees? They are neither/nor. It seems to be a document which is not

20 based on full information of the local situation and categories.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, absolutely. And if we go to a later

22 document, the meetings which I cite in December of 1993, still then, over

23 three months later, there's still a great deal of confusion as to who is

24 actually in the detention centres.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: In one of the documents we've looked at before,

Page 6151

1 amongst other things, somebody was charged with drawing a list of all

2 detainees. Was that list actually drawn? Did you come upon it in your

3 studies?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, there were a number of lists. The one I know

5 I've seen personally, because I found that one in the archive, I believe

6 someone had drawn up lists of all the prisoners in Dretelj around this

7 time; I believe there's a lists of prisoners in Heliodrom I've seen around

8 this time, listed by hangar; and I believe then again in December, when

9 these meetings are held which I cite in my report, there's more lists of

10 prisoners which are being made, although I'm not sure whether I've seen

11 the lists that were made in December.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When compiling your report, did

13 you examine the legal situation that concerned civilian prisoners with

14 respect to the penal code, the Criminal Code of Herceg-Bosna? Is this an

15 issue you examined? Is this a question you posed, or is it an issue you

16 didn't deal with?

17 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't deal with it other than that I'd seen

18 quite a bit of information that persons had been detained without charges

19 being filed. But that's not a question I deliberately went out and

20 gathered information on.

21 I should add there that with the camps, there's a great deal of

22 documentation, and I very deliberately limited what I looked at by level

23 of documentation, because otherwise it would be just too large of a task.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Mr. Scott.

Page 6152


2 Q. If we can look briefly, then, at Exhibit P 05104. And if you have

3 that, can you please tell us what it is?

4 A. This is an order of Mate Boban, signed and stamped on the 15th of

5 September, 1993, which was forwarded to the Defence Department and the

6 Main Staff of the HR HB armed forces.

7 Q. In light of the current topic, if I could just direct your

8 attention to item number -- paragraph number 3 on the second page of the

9 English translation. Does Mr. Boban there address, again, the issue of

10 the detention of prisoners and others and conditions of such detention?

11 A. Yes. Both in -- in the second part of the order, Mr. Boban orders

12 the military to carry out -- observe the standards of international

13 humanitarian law when in combat, and in section 3, he orders that in those

14 areas in which the conditions required by international law are not met,

15 they should immediately be met.

16 Q. Could we go to Exhibit P 05503.

17 Yes.

18 JUDGE PRANDLER: Let me ask you, Mr. Witness, to tell me, since in

19 the previous chapter I notice -- it disappeared, by I saw there a

20 particular paragraph which spoke about the necessity that the observers of

21 the International Red Cross are to be allowed to visit the camps. And now

22 I cannot in a way quote it because I do not have it here, but I believe it

23 was the same thing. And now I would like to ask you if you have seen any

24 other document in which reference was made to the possibility or kind of

25 not giving the chance to the observers of the ICRC to visit the camps.

Page 6153

1 That is my question. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: The issue of accessibility to camps, I just know

3 from my previous work and from other trials that that was a very burning

4 issue which was discussed quite a bit in the summer and fall of 1993.

5 Now, as to the specifics of who was allowed to visit and exactly

6 when, that's something I just didn't look at documents for in making this

7 report. Other than the ones which we've just cited regarding the visit in

8 August of 1993 to the Heliodrom.

9 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you very much.


11 Q. If we could then look, please, at P 05503. And can you tell us

12 what that is, please?

13 A. This is a report of a three-member commission which was part of

14 the health care sector of the Defence Department of the HVO reporting on

15 the sanitary conditions and medical conditions in the Heliodrom on the

16 30th of September, 1993.

17 Q. And can we see there eight conclusions on the second page of the

18 English translation at least?

19 A. Yes, we can.

20 Q. And do those observations indicate - again, we don't have time to

21 go through each one - a number deficiencies?

22 A. Yes, quite a number, many of which were already described in a

23 previous exhibit. And this also adds more specifics as to the sanitary

24 situation and the health situation.

25 Q. And if I can direct your attention to the last page of the

Page 6154

1 document. Can you just indicate a number of the people who received this

2 or --

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. -- or to whom this report was directed?

5 A. Yeah. This report was directed - and you'll need to scroll down a

6 little bit more - first of all, to Mate Boban, then to Bruno Stojic, and

7 then also to the General -- or Brigadier Zarko Tole. I believe that's

8 Tole and not Tolo. And then the head of the health sector, Mr. Bagaric.

9 And here it says Mr. Berko Pusic, although sometimes his first name is

10 called Berislav and sometimes it's Berko. And then to the commander of

11 the Heliodrom and then to the chief of the 3rd Brigade's medical service.

12 Q. Could I ask you next to go to Exhibit P 05812. Can you tell us

13 what that is?

14 A. Is it 5812 or 5821?

15 Q. This is 5812.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. If you don't have it, please direct your attention to the --

18 A. No, I do. I just have it mislabelled. Yes.

19 This letter is from the commander of the Heliodrom prison, Stanko

20 Bozic, to Mr. Stojic and forwarded to Zarko Tole, as well as Bruno Stojic.

21 Q. Dated?

22 A. Dated the 11th of October, 1993.

23 Q. Now, please direct your attention particularly to the opening

24 paragraph, first of all. In stating his concerns, does Mr. Bozic indicate

25 the time period encompassed by the problems he's raising?

Page 6155

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What does it say?

3 A. He says that these difficulties and problems have -- regard the

4 persons who have been brought in since the 30th of June, 1993, brought in

5 as detainees since the 30th of June, 1993.

6 Q. And does Mr. -- the Heliodrom warden, Mr. Bozic, indicate he's

7 listing all of the problems or only the most serious problems?

8 A. Well, he says that he's only highlighting the ones that are top

9 priority right at the moment, so only the very most important problems, of

10 which there are eight.

11 Q. One, number 1, and I'm not going to go in detail except to direct

12 some of your attention to some of the questions put by the Judges earlier,

13 but is item 1 the use of detainees for work?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. And could you go to number 2?

16 A. Number 2 or 1(B)?

17 Q. Number 2?

18 A. Number 2 is the severe wounding and other sufferings of the

19 detainees. And, again, further down it mentions the same visits of the

20 International Red Cross back on the 10th, 11th and 12th of August, 1993,

21 in this regard.

22 Q. At the end of the letter, does Mr. Bozic give any indication,

23 again, whether he as commander of the prison, if you will, or the warden

24 is able to still, by now the middle of the October, 1993, is he able to

25 solve these problems?

Page 6156

1 A. No. And, as a matter of fact, his last sentence in the letter

2 reads:

3 "As I am not able to solve these problems alone, I appeal to you

4 to use your influence for these problems to be solved."

5 Q. May I next ask you, please, to go to Exhibit P 07064. And can you

6 tell us what that is when you have it, please.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

10 just wanted to say that I'm afraid that the author of this document is on

11 the list of the Prosecution's witnesses. So Mr. Tomljanovich is talking

12 about this document rather than the author. You have instructed us and

13 said that documents should be presented through the authors. I don't

14 object to having this document shown to Mr. Tomljanovich, but I think we

15 should exclude any other form of interpretation.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's quite clear for the

17 Chamber that when the witness reads out a paragraph, he's only reading out

18 something that someone else drafted. He didn't draft it, so he is not

19 expressing his opinion.

20 Mr. Scott, with regard to this document on the screen.

21 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

22 Q. Please, can you tell us what that is, Mr. Tomljanovich?

23 A. Yes. I don't have it in front of me, but I remember this one

24 fairly well. This is a document from Mr. Biskic, who had just been made,

25 fairly recently, assistant head -- or Assistant Minister of Defence of the

Page 6157

1 HR HB. And this is a letter of the 7th of December, 1993, written to the

2 Minister of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Gojko Susak, regarding

3 the prisoners of war and the problems with prisoners in Herceg-Bosna.

4 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment. Do you have any more

5 information on Mr. Biskic's background and where he had come from prior to

6 being named an Assistant Minister of Defence in the HVO?

7 A. I know that he was an officer of the Croatian army, the HV,

8 although I'm not -- I don't remember right now exactly in what capacity.

9 Q. And do you know why he was reporting -- giving this report to the

10 Minister of Defence of the Republic of Croatia?

11 A. Presumably the Minister of Defence of the Republic of Croatia was

12 interested in seeing -- understanding the situation with the problems of

13 prisoners of war in Herceg-Bosna because it had become the problem of the

14 Republic of Croatia because of international pressure.

15 Q. All right. Again, because of time, does Mr. Biskic then in the

16 opening paragraph say that, having taken up his duties, he was able to

17 immediately observe problems with the prisoner of war "shelters and

18 collections centres"?

19 A. Yes. And describes these problems as very serious.

20 Q. Does he indicate in the letter the organisation or part of the

21 HVO, based on his observations, who were responsible or had jurisdiction

22 over the detention facilities?

23 A. Yes. He makes the observation - I don't have it in front of me -

24 but he makes the observation, I believe, that the Defence Department or

25 Defence Ministry has been given responsibility, although he does not think

Page 6158

1 that should have -- its overall responsibility, although he does not think

2 that should have been the case.

3 Q. Can we scroll down on the document, please.

4 Is that indicated in the last paragraph on that --

5 A. Yes. And I should make clear here that what we see in the last

6 paragraph, where it says "MO HR HB", that's the Ministry of Defence.

7 That's the Croatian -- sorry.

8 Q. At the top of the next page, is there a heading called "Main

9 Omissions"?

10 A. Yes, there is.

11 Q. And then does he go on at the bottom of that page, carrying over

12 to the last page of his letter, to propose a number of actions or steps?

13 A. Yes, he does.

14 Q. I direct your attention particularly to point number 4. Can you

15 tell the Judges -- or read that to the Judges.

16 A. I'll read that. Point number 4?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. "From the highest level of the RH ..."

19 Q. "RH" being whom?

20 A. The RH being the Republic of Croatia. "... influence HR HB

21 institutions to make them resolve the problem of detained persons as soon

22 as possible in order to change the world's opinion of us, because

23 representatives of the International Red Cross and the UN know the

24 situation in the collection centres and the KRZ very well."

25 Q. Can I ask you to look at the attachment to that document, which is

Page 6159

1 at --

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I -- I have a question.

3 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It strikes me that in -- unless I'm in error, in

5 the documents you have shown us and the passages that have been pointed

6 out to us, the problem of detainees was always regarded as being a problem

7 because it seemed to damage, on the international level, the reputation of

8 the HVO or later the HR HB. Now, did you come upon any documents where

9 the concern was of a humanitarian motivation, someone showing some kind of

10 concern for the personal fate of the persons concerned?

11 THE WITNESS: Not in any of the documents I reviewed for this

12 report. However, in open-source documents and press releases, that's

13 frequently stated as a reason for intending to close the camps in the

14 future.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


17 Q. If I could ask you to look at the attachment. One of the Judges

18 earlier had a question about whether lists were prepared. Attached to

19 this particular document is something titled "List of Detainees from the

20 Heliodrom who Live in Mixed Marriages," which then goes on to list

21 approximately 66 detained persons.

22 From your research, sir, were you able to -- can you provide the

23 Judges any assistance into the purpose of this list or the significance of

24 listing only those detainees who lived in mixed marriages?

25 A. Generally speaking, persons who were to be released were sent

Page 6160

1 either to territory controlled by the ABiH, sent to third countries via

2 the Republic of Croatia, or allowed to stay in Herceg-Bosna. And persons

3 of mixed marriages were a category which I believe, in general, were

4 people allowed to stay, although I don't know anything about the fate of

5 these particular people.

6 Q. Could I ask you next to go to P 07096.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. On the list that

8 you have before you, we can see the names of the men detained. They are

9 to the left. And we have the dates of birth, and to the right we have the

10 names of their wives, because Mr. Jusic Emir seems to be married to Sremer

11 Kornelija, who is a Croat.


13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there's "H" and then we have

14 "S" for Serbs. What does "H" represent?

15 THE WITNESS: That would be Croats, because it would be "Hrvati"

16 or "Hrvatica" , in the original Croatian.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And the "S" means

18 the persons.


20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott.


22 Q. If we can please go, then, to Exhibit P 07096, and tell us what

23 that is, the significance of that document in your report.

24 A. Yes. Very quickly, this is an order or a decision of Mate Boban,

25 signed on the 10th of December, 1993, to order the immediate closing of

Page 6161

1 all detention centres in HR HB unilaterally and to implement this decision

2 no later than the 17th of December, 1993.

3 Q. And if we can then go back -- we looked at this yesterday, but if

4 we can then look briefly again at P 07668. If you have that, can you

5 remind us what that is?

6 A. I don't believe I have a copy of that. Here we go. Yes. This

7 is, once again, the order or the decision of Mr. Prlic to nullify his

8 earlier decision to open Gabela camp and to appoint its director.

9 Q. And the date of this decision closing the Gabela camp is?

10 A. It's December. If we could scroll down. Yes, 22nd of December,

11 1993.

12 Q. And the final two documents on the topic of camps. Could you

13 look, please, at P 07124.

14 And what is that?

15 A. This is the minutes of a meeting for a working group for

16 implementing Mr. Boban's order, which we just saw a minute ago, or his

17 decision, and they're meeting on the 11th of December, 1993, in Posusje,

18 under the chair of Colonel Marijan Biskic, an order to enact this order to

19 close the camps.

20 Q. Now, by this date in December, the Minister of Defence is listed

21 as Mr. Perica Jukic.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Had Mr. Stojic stopped being the Minister of Defence by that time?

24 A. Yes, he had. In the HR HB, Mr. Perica Jukic, for a few months

25 only, was the Minister of Defence of the HR HB.

Page 6162

1 Q. In terms of other persons present at the meeting, did they include

2 the wardens of the Ljubuski, Gabela, and Heliodrom camps?

3 A. Yes, they do. As well as military prosecutors.

4 Q. And is it also -- do the list of attendees also include Mr.

5 Berislav Pusic, towards the end of the list?

6 A. Yes, it does. As well as dignitaries from -- at least one

7 dignitary from the republic of -- oh, I'm sorry. Forget I said that.

8 Q. Directing your attention to page number 3 of the report, or the

9 minutes. Excuse me. Could I direct your attention to the second

10 paragraph and --

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: Your Honour.

12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I see that Mr. Ibrisimovic is on his

13 feet.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Ibrisimovic.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My

16 objection is this: Since Mr. Scott mentioned all the functions of the

17 persons here but he seems to have skipped Mr. Pusic, he did not -- was not

18 present as president of the commission but, when we look at the document

19 3995, I think, the document we saw a moment ago, was the president of the

20 commission.

21 MR. SCOTT: That's correct, Your Honour. The documentation will

22 show, and I would think there would be no dispute, that Mr. Pusic was

23 wearing a number of hats during this time period.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Microphone not activated].

25 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

Page 6163

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But let's be precise

2 here. At that meeting on the 30th of December, 1993, Mr. Pusic was there,

3 and I see him written down as head or president of the prisoners of war

4 exchange office.

5 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

6 Q. And if I can direct your attention to the second paragraph on page

7 3 in reference to, in fact, Mr. Pusic. Could you read that paragraph to

8 us, please.

9 A. Yes. "After Colonel Biskic's introductory remark, Mr. Berislav

10 Pusic took the floor and informed those present that at this moment in the

11 HR HB there are detention centres operating in Capljina, Gabela, Mostar,

12 Heliodrom, Tomislavgrad, in the town itself and in Sujica, Livno, Prozor

13 and Ljubuski. He said at this point he did not have a precise figure,

14 because until now detainees were constantly being taken away to work,

15 mostly on the preparation of the front line."

16 Q. And if we could --

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: There is -- excuse me, please. There is one

18 mention I don't understand. "In the town itself," what does that refer

19 to? Can you explain?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's in regard to Tomislavgrad, which is a

21 town and a municipality. So there was a camp in the town of Tomislavgrad

22 and also in Sujica, which is a town, I think, in the municipality of

23 Tomislavgrad, north of Tomislavgrad. So there were two camps in the

24 municipality; one was in the seat of the municipality; one was in this

25 smaller town, Sujica.

Page 6164

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. But we have to

2 break there. We've been working for more than an hour and a half. It's

3 10 to 4.00. We'll reconvene at 10 past 4.00.

4 Mr. Scott, you've roughly used an hour and a half so far. How

5 much more time do you need? Because theoretically you have just 30

6 minutes left.

7 MR. SCOTT: Our records, Your Honour, which I understand confirm

8 or are consistent with the registry that so far I have used 57 minutes, so

9 I have approximately one hour left.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll reconvene at

11 4.10.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed, but the

15 Judges have a question to ask the witness before that.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Tomljanovich, I return to the order Mate

17 Boban gave on December 10th that all prisoners be released by December

18 17th. We have then seen an order signed by Mr. Prlic on the 23rd, more or

19 less but certainly after the 17th, concerning the closure of Gabela. Can

20 you tell the Bench how the order given by Mate Boban was actually

21 implemented?

22 THE WITNESS: Well, in large part, the order was implemented

23 through these two meetings which we're introducing right now where all of

24 these matters were discussed. It was also implemented through the

25 decision closing Gabela.

Page 6165

1 Now, as far as when or how Mr. Boban's order was received by Mr.

2 Prlic, that I don't know because we don't have that documentation.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Were all prisoners actually released by December

4 17?

5 THE WITNESS: No, I believe not.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And the last question: Was Mate Boban competent

7 to order such release according to the HR HB constitution?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, there was no constitution. I just

9 want to make sure that's very, very clear. There is no constitution.

10 There is no state. There maybe something else, but there's no

11 constitution.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: When you say there is no state, that's part of

13 your pleading, of course.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour, no. There's no constitution. If

15 there is a constitution and if the Trial Chamber believes there is a

16 constitution, I would like to see it. But there's no constitution.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm referring to the document that organises the

18 quasi-statelet.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: If that's the Trial Chamber's position at this

20 point in time --

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm asking a question. I'm not stating a

22 position, Mr. Karnavas. And I think the witness can answer if I reduce it

23 to asking: Was Mate Boban legally competent to pass such an order?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, Your Honour, but the moment that

25 you're calling it a quasi-statelet it would appear to me --

Page 6166

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I've withdrawn that.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm asking if Mate Boban was competent to pass

4 such an order.

5 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honour, that's -- that's a legal

6 question. I think if you read his powers as commander-in-chief broadly

7 and his authority over the Department of Defence, he would be, although I

8 imagine you could make an argument that he would not have been. But I

9 really don't know, according to the laws of the HR HB at the time, or

10 according to the various basic decisions.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, in order to complete the

14 question raised by Judge Trechsel with respect to the closing of the

15 prisons, you explained to us the different categories of the detainees

16 that were in those prisons, and we took note that there were prisoners of

17 war as detainees and military detainees.

18 Now, when the order came to close all the prisons, what was the

19 situation, the juridical, the legal situation with respect to the military

20 detainees who had committed offences? What happened to them?

21 Were they set free or were measures taken to place them in detention in

22 other prisons, for example?

23 THE WITNESS: Although that's something I haven't looked at in

24 this report, I know there was, generally speaking, the intention at this

25 time to raise charges against anyone who was intended to be kept in

Page 6167

1 detention. I also know that, just from looking through the archives and

2 finding documents, charges were raised quite frequently by local

3 prosecutors against various persons who were in detention. But I don't

4 know if everyone who was still in detention had charges filed against

5 them.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This decision by Mate Boban that

7 you pointed out, did you look at the preamble and the motives for the

8 decision that was taken? How do you interpret, you as an expert in the

9 structure of the Herceg-Bosna, how do you explain the fact that he's going

10 to motivate that by referring to the fact that peace can only exist

11 through freedom? Does that mean that freedom means liberating all the

12 prisoners, setting them free?

13 THE WITNESS: That's certainly the implication given what order --

14 or what the decision is, yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Perhaps during the

16 cross-examination we'll come back to that at some point.

17 Mr. Scott.


19 Q. Well, on that point, sir, the preamble if you will, as the

20 President calls it, to Boban's order, can you tell the Judges whether you

21 have any information whether that language was simply meant for

22 international public consumption?

23 A. Well, this was certainly a public document, I would imagine, so I

24 would imagine this wording was. And it's also remarking on the day of

25 human rights.

Page 6168

1 MR. MURPHY: Once again I'm going to object to asking this witness

2 to speculate about the intentions of other parties of which he can have

3 absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question should have been

5 put in the following way: To the best of the witness's knowledge as an

6 expert, on the basis of -- did the decision have a public character or was

7 it a confidential decision that was taken? So it's on the basis of your

8 work that you can -- that you can answer that question. On the basis of

9 your research, was the document something that was known publicly? Did

10 they discuss it or did anybody know about it?

11 THE WITNESS: It was certainly known publicly, and this particular

12 document, I believe, was found in the HVO archive, in the Croatian archive

13 in Zagreb. So it was -- I don't know off the top of my head in whose

14 papers it was found, but -- and there isn't a circulation list, but if

15 there's no circulation list, it would probably be intended for broad

16 public distribution if nobody's specified specifically as being the

17 addressees.


19 Q. If we can continue back to finish up on Exhibit P 07124. We were

20 previously looking before the break at page 3. Can I direct your

21 attention, please, over to the top of page 4, and simply to note that for

22 the Chamber at that part of the document Mr. Pusic and Mr. Bozic provide

23 some information as to the number of prisoners in the various detention

24 camps.

25 A. Yes, they do, and their figures are widely divergent. They spend

Page 6169

1 some time arguing over the actual number of prisoners.

2 Q. And this is the day after -- this is the 11th of December, the day

3 after Mr. Boban's order; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Could we go on, then, please, to Exhibit P 07143. I'm sorry.

6 7143. If I -- I may have said 74 -- there's both, but this is 7143. Can

7 you tell us what that document is?

8 A. Yes. I have it as 7413 here, but it's the same document. It's

9 the minutes of the next meeting which followed after the last meeting

10 we've seen on 13th of December, 1993. They've been charged with making

11 lists and categorising prisoners and coming back to this meeting, and

12 there are some of the same persons, although some persons are attending

13 here for the first time. It's still a very large meeting. And -- yeah.

14 This is still in Posusje.

15 Q. And among the list of those attending, does it also include Mr.

16 Berislav Pusic listed here in the English language as head of the Office

17 for the Liberation of Captured and Missing Persons in the HR HB?

18 A. Yes, it does.

19 Q. Can I ask you to go to the next page of the document, page 3. And

20 did Colonel Biskic indicate four steps or actions that were needed?

21 A. Yes, he did, in the middle of the page, that it was necessary to

22 decide who was permitted to remain in the HR HB. In regards to prisoners

23 of war, persons responsible were supposed to be the military police and

24 the SIS, which is military counter-intelligence. They're going to set a

25 deadline for those with responsibility for those leaving to third

Page 6170

1 countries, these prisoners being left out. And finally, to make a

2 deadline for those with responsibility, for those who wish to cross over

3 to the -- well, here it says "Muslim side" but ABiH-controlled territory.

4 Q. Now, before we go on to other parts of the document, does the next

5 paragraph indicate that as of December of 1993 there were still women

6 being held at the Heliodrom?

7 A. Yes, it does. And I believe in the previous document as well, I

8 think it was Mr. Lucic who made reference to that, that the women should

9 be released first.

10 Q. Now, as we flip through the document, and starting on page 4, do

11 we then begin to get a series of numbers per camp, the total number of

12 persons in the camp, and then what is going to -- the disposition of the

13 various persons?

14 A. Yes, we do. It's divided by camps, and numbers are given for how

15 many can stay in the HR HB.

16 Q. Let's just start with Mostar on page 4, just as one illustration.

17 We won't do the others. But what does that indicate?

18 A. Let's see here. This first set of -- you mean the ones after

19 number 1? Heliodrom, Mostar --

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. -- down there?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Okay. Out of a total of 1.896, 24 could stay in the HR HB.

24 Q. 24?

25 A. 240, sorry. 369 would remain in prisons and isolation, and 491

Page 6171

1 would be transferred across the lines to ABiH-held territory, and 203

2 would be transferred to a third country. This is just this subgroup of

3 prisoners they're talking about.

4 Q. All right. Did your research show, in terms of this last group

5 being transported to a third country, by what mechanisms were these people

6 going to be transferred out, outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, to some other

7 country?

8 A. Generally speaking, when people were transferred to third

9 countries, they first had to obtain a visa for a third country and then

10 were given free -- free passage through Croatia, the Republic of Croatia.

11 Frequently as well, people were sent to camps in the Republic of Croatia.

12 I know there was one large one -- one important one in Korcula, and then

13 they'd be transferred to third countries from there.

14 Generally speaking, they wouldn't be sent to Croatia until a third

15 country agreed to take these persons.

16 Q. If I can then just direct your attention to page 10, to one final

17 item in this document. On page 10, again, generally, under the heading

18 for the Heliodrom, we get a series of numbers, and then it says this:

19 "743 persons were without category, and he proposed that they be

20 handed over to the supervision of the International Red Cross."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you provide the Judges with any information as to exactly how

24 that was going to work? Were they going to say, "Here, International Red

25 Cross, you take care of them?"

Page 6172

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to stop this commentary, Your Honour. I

2 know I'm dealing with professional Judges, but at some point an Appeals

3 Chamber may be reading the record, and I don't think it's very helpful to

4 have the Prosecutor leading the witness or making these sort of flip



7 Q. Do you know, Mr. Tomljanovich, do you have any information about

8 how it was that this would be handled, implemented, carried out, that they

9 would -- that 743 persons would be "handed over to the supervision of the

10 International Red Cross"?

11 A. No. With these particular persons, I do not know.

12 Q. All right.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can I use this --

14 MR. SCOTT: Yes, please.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: -- natural break to return to the list of the

16 persons taking part in this meeting, and especially the qualities ascribed

17 to Mr. Pusic. "Head of the Office for the Liberation of Captured and

18 Missing Persons in HR HB". Now, I don't know how you liberate missing

19 persons. That's one question.


21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I haven't heard about this office before either.

22 Was this an office that was created as a consequence of this order of 10

23 December?

24 THE WITNESS: I don't necessarily believe so. If I could see that

25 page in the original B/C/S.

Page 6173

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's page 2.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, page 2.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Page 1 of the B/C/S.

4 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. Let's see here. Where is Mr. Pusic

5 here? It's near the top. Oh, I see here, yes. Uh-huh. Yes. He's

6 listed here as being the chief of the Office for the Liberation of

7 Prisoners and Displaced Persons.


9 Q. Can we just go back to the practice that you can read it --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


12 Q. -- if you can read it in the B/C/S and get the interpretation,

13 please.

14 A. Okay. [Interpretation] "The Head of Office for the Liberation of

15 Captured Persons and Missing Persons in the HR HB."

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I got this, yes. But still, since

17 when does this office exist?

18 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, it doesn't. And it may be

19 incorrect terminology for his title as the -- the head of the office for

20 exchange and -- exchange of prisoners and other persons. That's always a

21 possibility, that the terminology was wrong from whoever took the notes.

22 That particular wording I don't think I've ever seen in any other

23 document, although I could be wrong.


25 Q. Leaving the topic of camps, can you tell us -- on one of our final

Page 6174

1 topics, can you tell us what the relationship or powers of the HVO HZ HB

2 were in relation to the municipalities, and whether there were any decrees

3 or decisions setting that relationship out?

4 A. Yes. Both in the basic decision on executive government and that

5 on municipal government, it's made clear that the HVO HZ HB has the right

6 and the duty to nullify any local legislation which is not in accordance

7 with general law or general ordinances or general policy, and that this

8 particular power was used a number of times in 1992 and 1993. There's

9 also a power of appointment.

10 Q. Does the power of appointment also include a power of dismissal?

11 A. Yes, it does.

12 Q. And can I ask you to look, please, at Exhibit P 00250. When you

13 have that, can you tell us what it is and very quickly point out to us the

14 most pertinent sections or language relevant to --

15 A. Yeah. That's the statutory decision on municipal executive

16 government. This is already -- this is back from June of 1992. I don't

17 have -- let's see here. No. It's printed in the Narodni List of

18 September, but it was from -- it was approved -- here I am. I have it.

19 13th of June, 1992, and signed by Mate Boban.

20 And the relevant articles which you were talking about are number

21 -- Article 6, in particular, which reads:

22 "The HVO HZ HB shall supervise the legality of the municipal HVO's

23 work.

24 "The HVO HZ HB shall issue compulsory instructions to the HVO in

25 its competence."

Page 6175

1 Q. You're reading from Article 6 now? Sorry.

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. Can I direct your attention back up to Article number 2.

4 A. Yes. Article number 2 says that the president -- sorry, I'll

5 quote:

6 "A president, office heads, and other of its members which shall

7 appointed and dismissed by the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna Croatian

8 Defence Council, hereinafter HVO HZ HB, shall make up the municipal HVO."

9 So that gives the HVO the power of appointment.

10 Q. And could we next go, please, jumping from one end of the

11 documents to the other, but to Exhibit P 09530, a document that we also

12 saw yesterday?

13 A. Yes. These are the Rules of Procedure of the HVO HZ HB, which we

14 saw yesterday, from the 12th of November, 1992.

15 Q. All right. And these were issued or signed by Mr. Prlic?

16 A. Yes, I believe so.

17 Q. Now, directing your attention specifically to page 14, Articles --

18 well, actually starting on page 15, Articles 39 through 41, do those,

19 again, set out the relationship and powers and responsibility of the

20 municipalities -- the municipal HVOs in relationship to the HVO HZ HB?

21 A. Yes, they do. And, again, in Article 40 they state that -- and

22 here's the quote in the second paragraph:

23 "If the municipal HVO fails to act in conformity with the

24 preceding paragraph, the HVO HZ HB shall act in conformity with Article 15

25 of the statutory decision on the provisional organisation of executive

Page 6176

1 power and administration in the territory of the HZ HB ..."

2 Which is yet another order. It's the provisional order. I'm

3 sorry, did I remember to close the quote? Yes.

4 That is yet another order. I think the revised one is earlier.

5 But there's three orders now where this is mentioned.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. Or three decisions or decrees.

8 Q. Could I ask you for the witness to be shown, from the

9 organisational charts, Exhibit P 09689, page 3 on the charts. Third

10 chart. Could be page 4 in e-court, I'm told, but the third chart.

11 Now, can you look at that, sir, and does that chart indicate the

12 relationship or structure between the HVO HZ HB and the municipal HVOs?

13 A. Yes. This chart is very general and generic. You see at the top,

14 the HVO HZ HB with the various department heads, president and

15 vice-presidents; in between, you have, cited here again, the power of

16 appointment from Articles 13 and 15 of the statutory decision on executive

17 government; and Article 13, the right to nullify -- the right and duty to

18 nullify acts contrary to the general interest.

19 And at the bottom here we have a generic municipal HVO structure.

20 The idea in general was that every department and many subdepartments

21 would have local offices in each municipality, although, depending on the

22 municipality and its size, they may combine quite a number of these

23 functions into one office. So in each municipality, the number of members

24 was different.

25 Q. Now, before going on, just to inject the idea that the municipal

Page 6177

1 HVOs, could they also issue orders and decrees on a municipal basis?

2 A. Yes, they could and they did, and at least large municipalities

3 like Mostar had their own Official Gazette.

4 Q. Just as one example of that, could I ask you to go to P 05039.

5 Yes. There's actually several -- two decisions here. Do you have it,

6 sir?

7 A. I have it in front of me. I don't have it in my binder.

8 Q. I ask you to go to the second page of the English translation, to

9 the second decision indicated in the document. 24th of August, 1993.

10 A. Ah, yeah.

11 Q. What is that about?

12 A. Well, this is the decision to prohibit the work of the Party of

13 Democratic Action, or the SDA, which was the leading Muslim party in

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, within Mostar municipality. And we don't have it

15 yet on the translation, but I believe it also characterises the party as a

16 terrorist organisation.

17 Q. Now, you've said that -- looked at these statutes and decisions,

18 decrees, that there was the power to nullify, that the central government,

19 if you will, the HZ HB, had the authority to nullify decisions. Did you

20 come across any examples of that?

21 A. Yes, I came across a handful of examples, I think most of which

22 were in Narodni List as early, I think, as the late summer/fall of 1992,

23 and at least as late as May of 1993.

24 Q. Could I ask you, before turning to one of those, to look at

25 Exhibit P 00788. And as soon as you have that, can you tell us what that

Page 6178

1 is?

2 A. Yeah, I have it. This is a letter which I believe was -- I think

3 this was a paket radio. I'm not sure. It was received on the 21st of

4 November, 1992. We only have the receipt here dated, and it's to all HVO

5 HZ HB municipal presidents from Jadranko Prlic. It's in regards to

6 contact with representatives of UNPROFOR, and he's instructing them that

7 all such contacts should be made only following the consultation and

8 coordination with the HVO HZ HB.

9 Q. And could I ask you next to look at P 02248. Can you tell us what

10 that is, please.

11 A. Yeah. This is a decision on the invalidation of a decision which

12 had been made by the municipality of Mostar on the 24th of March, 1993,

13 which I believe is signed by Mr. Prlic. And the decision was in relation

14 to the mobilisation of material within the municipality.

15 Q. All right. Now, if we could turn, please, to the last topic, and

16 that is the formation of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the HR

17 HB.

18 Can I ask you, please, to look at Exhibit P 04611. Please tell us

19 what that is.

20 A. I believe if we could go to the -- I don't have this in front of

21 me. I believe this is the declaration -- if we could scroll down in the

22 B/C/S and go to the next page.

23 Q. Please.

24 A. Please. Yes. This is the basic decision on the establishment and

25 declaration of the HR HB, which is signed, I believe, here by the head of

Page 6179

1 the Assembly, Mr. Perica Jukic, on the 28th of August, 1993.

2 Q. All right. In the interests of time, if I can just direct your

3 attention in particular to Article 11 -- Articles 11 and 12. What does

4 Article 11 provide?

5 A. Article 11 provides that until there is a constitution and that

6 it's -- until the constitution and all of the bodies -- yes, here we are.

7 "Until such time as the constitution and the bodies of the HR HB

8 are established, the HZ HB institutions shall still be applied, as shall

9 regulations of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina if they are not in

10 contravention with the regulations of the HR HB."

11 Q. Just for accuracy's sake, when you say "the regulations of the

12 Republic --" does it say "the regulations of the Republic of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina" or "the regulations of --

14 A. Yeah, I'm sorry. "Former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

15 Q. And what does Article 12 provide?

16 A. Article 12 provides that:

17 "Until such time as elections are held and the bodies of state

18 authority are appointed, in accordance with the provisions of this

19 decision, the duties of state authority shall be performed by the bodies

20 of the authority of the HZ HB."

21 And the president shall remain the same as well.

22 Q. If we could go to the organisational chart, P 09689.

23 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.

24 [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting, but in Article 11

25 there's been a mistranslation again, and I'm surprised to see that this

Page 6180

1 was not mentioned by the witness. It mentions the republic that has

2 existed to date and not the former republic.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the article,

4 Article 11, in the B/C/S version and we will listen to the translation.

5 THE WITNESS: Article 11.

6 [Interpretation] "Until such time as the constitution of the

7 republic is adopted and the bodies of the republic are established, the

8 regulations in force for the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna shall be

9 applied in the territory of the Republic, as shall the regulations of the

10 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina that has existed to date if they are

11 not in contravention of the regulations of the Croatian Republic of

12 Herceg-Bosna."


14 Q. Could I ask you now to --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The word "dosadsanji" is a

16 little ambiguous and could be interpreted in both ways, either as "former"

17 or "to date."

18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. If I can ask that the witness be shown, as

19 part of Exhibit P 09689, the organisational charts, the chart on page 2,

20 or maybe page 3 in e-court. Chart 2. Page 3. All right.

21 Q. And is this a chart that's been prepared to show the relationships

22 of these bodies similar to the one we looked at on Monday but after the HR

23 HB was established?

24 A. Yes. This is an organigramme of the HR HB, and it is very similar

25 to the organigramme we saw of the HZ HB.

Page 6181

1 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, can you tell the Judges, apart from the changing

2 of names and labels - such as instead of "department" now they're

3 "ministries"; instead of "president", "prime minister" - were there any

4 significant changes in the actual operations and functions of these bodies

5 between the HZ HB and the HR HB?

6 A. Well, that depends on what you consider significant. There's a

7 great deal of continuity. I can outline just very briefly the major

8 changes which were made --

9 Q. All right.

10 A. -- which, to large degree, are nomenclature. And I should add

11 that names are finally -- the names in HR HB are catching up to what had

12 actually been the practice, and they're more descriptive names of these

13 bodies than the names in the HZ HB had been.

14 Q. So, for example, in the left upper portion of the chart what had

15 been - we discussed this quite a bit - the HZ HB Presidency is now called

16 the House of Representatives.

17 A. Yes, it is. It fulfils a very similar legislative role. There is

18 a great degree more legislation in stating how it should operate. The

19 members are expanded and redefined, and they did then meet more regularly

20 than the Presidency. But their powers are very, very similar.

21 Q. And if I could ask that the witness be shown the -- Exhibit 4, it

22 may be page 5 in e-court, of that bundle of charts. No, I'm sorry, one --

23 my apology. The one before that.

24 Is this, sir, an updated chart, if you will, again showing the

25 relationship between the central government and the municipals after the

Page 6182

1 creation of the HR HB?

2 A. Yes, it is. And, once again, this is highly simplified and

3 generic. It doesn't describe any particular municipality. But, once

4 again, we've listed the sections of the laws which apply to dismissal and

5 supervision of municipal governments and the duty to nullify legislation.

6 Now, the main difference is that many of the duties which had been

7 subdepartments in the HZ HB become full ministries. Another difference,

8 which really isn't of much consequence to the period we're talking about,

9 is the law did foresee the possibility of creating elected municipal

10 assemblies which would then elect municipal -- municipal governments,

11 although this was only to be done at such time when the conditions

12 permitted, and I don't believe that was done anyplace during this period.

13 Q. And before we leave -- I'm sorry, if we could go back to the

14 previous chart. I believe it's chart number 2 of the overall book, which,

15 again, may be page 3 in e-court.

16 Just finishing up with this. On this chart, which is different

17 than the HZ HB chart, to the right of Mate Boban there is a box that says

18 "Presidential Council."

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please explain that development to the Judges?

21 A. After Mate Boban left the position as president of HR HB, he

22 wasn't appointed by one man but by --

23 Q. Or replaced.

24 A. Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. He wasn't replaced by one man, he

25 was replaced by a collective body which was presided over by Kresimir

Page 6183

1 Zubak, and the other members of the collective Presidency are listed

2 here. And the basic decisions were modified on that day in order to allow

3 for such an institution.

4 Q. And finally, if we can look at P 06776 or -- actually, 6776 and

5 6995 are basically the same document. Let's use 6995, I'm sorry, because

6 that's the one actually out of the Gazette. P 06995.

7 And does that indicate the officers who are positions -- ministers

8 who were elected or selected as a result -- after the change to the HR HB?

9 A. Yes, it does. This comes from the 20th of November, 1993, and is

10 signed by the brand new -- well, he's still the vice-president of the

11 House of Representatives, Ivan Bender, and it's the election of the

12 government or of the cabinet.

13 In the HR HB, the president would nominate the government and the

14 Assembly would elect them, and this is the election. And all the

15 ministers are all here, as are the presidents and vice-presidents.

16 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, thank you very much for your assistance.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, before we let the witness go, I would

18 like to tender the remaining documents. I didn't stop and do that as we

19 went today, trying to move as quickly as possible, but I'll do that now.

20 P 03673, P 03560, P 03565, P 04352, P 04756, P 03663, P 03995, P

21 04841, P 05104, P 05503, P 05812, P 07064, P 07096, P 07124, P 07143, P

22 00250, 0 -- sorry, P 09689, P 05039, P 00788, P 02248, P 04611, P 06995.

23 And before I finish, Your Honour, I want to make it clear that the

24 Prosecution is tendering, as explained on Monday, we're tendering the

25 entire set of Narodni List documents for each of the relevant years 1992,

Page 6184

1 1993, and 1994, including the individual translated items that go with

2 each bundle. And we're also tendering as a complete collection all of the

3 records of the meetings of the HVO HZ HB.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now address the Defence. I

6 hope you have reached an agreement and that it won't be necessary for the

7 Chamber to decide as to how you should use your time. Who will start the

8 cross-examination?

9 Mr. Murphy.

10 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, yes, I will be starting the

11 cross-examination. Your Honour, it would be helpful if we could, once

12 again, review the time that is available. I think that the Defence has

13 made the necessary internal arrangements, but if it could be indicated

14 exactly how much time we have, that would assist.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll be working

16 until 7.00 p.m., and we have the entire day tomorrow, and we have Monday.

17 We'll have perhaps have two additional hours, but that won't be on

18 Tuesday. That will have to be on some other day. So you have two hours

19 until 7.00 p.m., excluding the break, and then you have tomorrow and

20 Monday. So you have eight hours. Four hours tomorrow, four hours on

21 Monday, plus an hour or a half or two hours. That amounts to nine and a

22 half hours. And perhaps you'll need two additional hours. So you have a

23 total of eleven and a half hours, provided that there are no

24 interruptions, no incidents, et cetera.

25 I don't know how you have divided the time among yourselves. You

Page 6185

1 have perhaps discussed the matter. Mr. Murphy, have you decided on how to

2 share your time, or are you just going to proceed blindly?

3 MR. MURPHY: No, Your Honour. We have -- we have made certain

4 decisions about that which I may or may not have changed, as with certain

5 counsel just since the last break because of what was asked in

6 examination-in-chief. But for the moment my assumption is that we will be

7 proceeding on the basis that Ms. Nozica and I have at least two hours. We

8 expect that perhaps further time will be made available to us by one of

9 the other accused, and that should become clear after the next break.

10 I don't know whether there's any advantage in my rehearsing all of

11 the arrangements that have been made, but suffice it to say that at this

12 point we will assume that there will be no difficulties that arise.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we will all

14 assume that there will be no difficulties arising. That's already quite

15 positive.

16 Mr. Murphy, you may take the floor now.

17 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, with the usher's assistance, I wonder

18 whether, if Mr. Scott has no objection, I could borrow the small podium he

19 has there. The ones in the courtroom are really too big to be of

20 practical use, if he doesn't mind.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Murphy:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tomljanovich.

23 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Murphy.

24 Q. My colleague Ms. Nozica and I represent the accused Bruno Stojic.

25 I'm sure you know that.

Page 6186

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And you're aware, I think, of the need for -- for us to be slow

3 because the interpreters have to catch up with us.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Also, I want to ask you if you have available a copy of your

6 report.

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And I'd like you to feel free to refer to that as much as you

9 wish. I will be asking you certain questions about it.

10 I'd like to begin with your qualifications, which I have to say I

11 find very impressive. One small point on that: You mentioned that you

12 were -- held the position of a lecturer at both Yale and Dickinson

13 universities; is that right?

14 A. Yes. I'm not exactly sure what my specific title was for each

15 particular job I would get each semester. It would frequently change.

16 Q. I just ask because there is a certain difference in terminology

17 between academic positions in the United States and Europe, isn't there?

18 A. Yes, there is. And also within institutions and between

19 institutions in the United States as well.

20 Q. If you had been a full-time member of the faculty at those

21 universities, your style would have been that of an assistance professor?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So, in fact, what it indicates is that you were essentially

24 teaching on a part-time basis while pursuing advanced studies.

25 A. Yes. At Yale, indeed I was.

Page 6187

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. At Dickinson I was teaching part-time because I had moved there in

3 the middle of writing my dissertation while my wife had obtained a job

4 there at the same time.

5 Q. I see. Now, you're currently employed by the Office of the

6 Prosecutor.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You've been employed by the Office of the Prosecutor, I think,

9 since 1999?

10 A. Yes, March 2nd, 1999.

11 Q. And is that your -- has that been your only employment since 1999?

12 A. Regular employment, yes. I did receive money for the book which I

13 had published as well as the two chapters in a book which I had published

14 as well. But that was an outside activity and not actually employment, I

15 wouldn't say.

16 Q. But you were not employed by or acting as an agent for anyone else

17 other than the Office of the Prosecutor during that time?

18 A. No, I was not.

19 Q. Now, you've been presented, as you know, as an expert witness in

20 this case.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I'd like to just understand or to get your understanding of

23 what exactly your field of expertise is that you have favoured us with in

24 this case.

25 A. Well, I understand your question could possibly mean two things;

Page 6188

1 an expert in the legal sense that we're using it as an expert in the

2 court, or just generally an expert, as somebody who knows a lot about a

3 subject.

4 Q. Well, let me come at it a different way. You're a professional

5 historian; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And essentially your job within the Office of the Prosecutor makes

8 use of that professional knowledge and experience, doesn't it?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. And the research that you have done in this case you have done

11 using your skills as an historian?

12 A. Both my skills as an historian and the knowledge I've obtained on

13 the job here, yes.

14 Q. Yes. Now, as an historian, Mr. Tomljanovich, would you agree with

15 me that in conducting historical research one should look objectively at

16 all sides of a given question?

17 A. In historical research, yes.

18 Q. And would you also agree with me that in historical research one

19 should have access to as many different sources as possible?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Once again, you have approached your work in relation to this case

22 using your skills as an historian; is that right?

23 A. Using my skills as an historian but not necessarily the same

24 approach, of course.

25 Q. Well, we'll come back to that, but let's -- let's, first of all,

Page 6189

1 examine your qualifications in a little more detail. I think we can agree

2 that you're not a lawyer; is that right?

3 A. No, I'm not now, nor have I ever been a lawyer.

4 Q. You had never studied law either in the United States or in the

5 former Yugoslavia?

6 A. No, I have not.

7 Q. I emphasise that because you've been asked a number of questions

8 in examination-in-chief about the structures within the HZ HB and the HR

9 HB, haven't you?

10 A. Yes, I have.

11 Q. And the answers that you've given, can we agree, are not intended

12 to be statements of the law as regards the structures of those

13 organisations?

14 A. No, and I think I made that clear in an earlier answer, that I can

15 only tell you what the documents say; I can't tell you what legally --

16 legally was correct or incorrect within the system of law of Herceg-Bosna.

17 Q. Well, I ask that because certain questions were put to you about

18 the competence of certain persons or the way things were supposed to

19 work. But just to make it clear, that's not something that you can really

20 help with as a legal question?

21 A. Not as a legal -- a legal question, although as a practical

22 question, the function of government in Herceg-Bosna was followed by

23 people who weren't lawyers as well. But, no, it's not a legal opinion.

24 Q. And it's also true that you're not a political scientist by

25 training; is that right?

Page 6190

1 A. No, I'm not.

2 Q. And you're not an economist by training?

3 A. Certainly not.

4 Q. Though you did in your examination-in-chief give us an extended

5 discussion of inflation and hyperinflation in the Republic of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina, but to make it clear, you're not a professional economist,

7 are you?

8 A. No, but I had to spend Croatian dinars in this period and that is

9 the basis of my knowledge, and I've also looked at exchange rates. But

10 I'm not an economist.

11 Q. So your knowledge on that subject comes from spending Croatian

12 dinars; is that what you're saying?

13 A. Yes. I was living there at the time and I knew -- I mean, first

14 of all I know.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. And also for the Tuta-Stela trial, I prepared a list of the

17 exchange rates between the Croatian dinar and the German Deutschmarks, the

18 official rates going through, well, the entire period of the Croatian

19 dinar.

20 Q. All right. Now, you told us that this was the first time that you

21 have given evidence as an expert witness; is that right?

22 A. Yes. I submitted -- I was put forward as an expert once before in

23 the Kordic case, but I was not heard by the Bench in that case.

24 Q. Why was that, do you know?

25 A. I believe that Judge May, at the time, said that my testimony was

Page 6191

1 redundant.

2 Q. Now, you have testified as a witness in the contempt hearing

3 against Markica Rebic?

4 A. Yes, Markica Rebic.

5 Q. But in that case you did not testify as an expert?

6 A. No, I did not.

7 Q. Now, given that this was your first time as an expert witness, did

8 somebody explain to you before you came to give evidence what the function

9 of an expert witness is in legal proceedings?

10 A. Well, in legal proceedings as far as what would be expected of me

11 as an expert in a trial in the ICTY, yes.

12 Q. And who gave you that explanation?

13 A. The explanation was given both in broad terms by Mr. Scott as well

14 as by my immediate supervisor, Mr. Patrick J. Treanor.

15 Q. What did Mr. Scott and Mr. Treanor tell you the function of an

16 expert witness was in legal proceedings?

17 A. Well, not in legal proceedings in general. They didn't tell me

18 that in a broad theoretical legal framework, but they did tell me the

19 sorts of things I'd be expected to do and the sorts of things I would not

20 be expected to do as an expert here at the ICTY, based on prior experience

21 of other expert testimony here at the ICTY.

22 Q. Well, did they explain to you that the function of an expert

23 witness is to provide the Court with an opinion on technical matters?

24 A. No, they did not. Not in those words, no.

25 Q. Well, then, perhaps you could tell us in your own words what your

Page 6192

1 understanding is today of the role of an expert at the ICTY.

2 A. I was instructed that my role was to put forward the evidence and

3 reach any possible conclusions or make any possible statements I could

4 based on the documentary evidence I had, rather than on my own personal

5 opinions or on speculation.

6 Q. So you were told that you weren't supposed to speculate; is that

7 right?

8 A. Well, no. I was told that if I do speculate and if I am asked a

9 question by the Bench or by other side and I can't answer it on the basis

10 of documentation, I need to say so, and the Judges will either want to

11 hear that or not.

12 Q. I see. So then in terms of looking at the documents, you do agree

13 that it is your function to provide the Court with an opinion?

14 A. Broadly speaking, yes, although I'm not necessarily sure I

15 understand the legal implications of an opinion. But, broadly speaking,

16 yes.

17 Q. Have you finished your answer, or were you --

18 A. I'm sorry, I was thinking about the answer still.

19 Q. Well, that's okay. We --

20 A. Well, I could say it depends on what you call an opinion.

21 Certainly not an opinion based on my own personal thoughts but only

22 opinions and conclusions which I can reach on the basis of the evidence

23 which I have in front of me for this particular testimony.

24 Q. So could we summarise it, then, by saying this: That you would be

25 asked to read the documents and provide commentary on them? Is that what

Page 6193

1 it comes to, really?

2 A. To a large degree, yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, did Mr. Scott or Mr. Treanor explain to you that

4 one of the attributes expected of an expert witness is to be neutral or

5 objective?

6 A. Yes, absolutely.

7 Q. Do you recall that, indeed, Judge Antonetti instructed you at the

8 beginning of your evidence that you were now the witness of the Court?

9 A. Yes, I do recall that.

10 Q. And, referring to your report for a moment, do you consider that

11 to be a neutral and objective expert report?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Do you consider the evidence that you have given so far to be

14 neutral and objective?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your employment with the

17 Office of the Prosecutor. You said that your function was that you were a

18 member of a leadership research team.

19 A. Yes, it's called the Leadership Research Team.

20 Q. Yes. And at one point in your evidence you used the phrase

21 "bringing documents in house," and I took that to indicate a certain

22 pride in and identification with the Office of the Prosecutor; is that

23 right?

24 A. No. Bringing them in house means going on mission, going through

25 archives elsewhere and bringing them to the ICTY.

Page 6194

1 Q. What is your understanding of the function of the Office of the

2 Prosecutor within the Tribunal?

3 A. Well, the Office of the Prosecution's function in the Tribunal is

4 to carry out -- now, I can't remember the actual number of the UN

5 Resolution, but to --

6 Q. That's all right.

7 A. -- to carry out the Statute and do its duties as outlined in the

8 UN Resolution setting up the ICTY, and also to observe the rules.

9 Q. Well, let's make it concrete. The Office of the Prosecutor

10 conducts investigations; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Collects evidence?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Identifies suspects?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Drafts indictments and presents them for confirmation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then prosecutes the accused with the intention of obtaining

19 convictions?

20 A. Yes, and that's true for the OTP as one whole unit, yes.

21 Q. Yes. And you're an employee of the OTP?

22 A. Yes, of the investigations section of the Office of the

23 Prosecutor.

24 Q. Your function is to help the Prosecution build its case before

25 trial, isn't it?

Page 6195

1 A. Our function -- this should be made clear: Our function in the

2 investigations section is to investigate what happened. It's the function

3 of the lawyers in the Prosecution section to decide who then may or may

4 not be legally responsible for something and to decide how the case should

5 be argued or any cases should be argued.

6 Q. I understand, sir. How long have you worked on this present case?

7 A. On and off - I haven't worked continuously on this certainly - on

8 and off, I've worked on things related to this case - oh, boy - since --

9 probably since the first or second week since I arrived here.

10 Q. 1999?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You worked on other cases involving Croatian and Bosnian accused

13 as well, haven't you?

14 A. Yes, I have.

15 Q. Blaskic case?

16 A. No. The Blaskic case was nearly done by the time I got here.

17 Q. All right.

18 A. And so I was assigned to the Kordic case.

19 Q. Kordic?

20 A. Uh-huh.

21 Q. Tuta and Stela?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And based upon your researches over such a large number of years,

24 you have a considerable knowledge now about the facts of these cases.

25 Would that be right?

Page 6196

1 A. Yes, although I'd have to warn you that a part of what's discussed

2 in those cases, especially if we're talking about Tuta and Stela, I

3 couldn't tell you very much about the crime base. Generally, my -- my

4 involvement there was to help prepare for Defence witnesses, if they were

5 persons of, you know, particular political or governmental importance.

6 Q. Well, let's talk about some of the things that you've done in this

7 case. You took part in interviewing some people, didn't you?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. In fact, you interviewed a Ms. Viherouria in October of 2001.

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. In December 2001, you actually were present and helped conduct an

12 interview of the accused Mr. Prlic.

13 A. Yes I did.

14 Q. And in January and February, 2004, you interviewed Mr. Zubak; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Remind the Judges who Mr. Zubak is, please.

18 A. He was -- initially he was a judge from Doboj in Northern Bosnia,

19 and then he became the vice-president of the HVO HZ HB, particularly

20 involved in questions of justice and legality. He was briefly the

21 Minister of Justice in the HR HB, and then he became the president of the

22 -- well, the president of the collective Presidency of the HR HB.

23 Q. Is he a person who has been indicted in the Tribunal?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was that decision based, in part, upon the interviews that you've

Page 6197

1 conducted?

2 A. I think you'd have to ask Mr. Scott and the other lawyers. The

3 decision to indict or not indict is not my decision.

4 Q. Well, let me put it this way, then: Were you asked for and did

5 you give advice as it whether Zubak should be indicted?

6 A. At the time of his interview, I don't think we discussed that at

7 all.

8 Q. Did you discuss it at some other time?

9 A. Well, in the very early days of my work here when -- prior to --

10 you know, very early on, possible targets were discussed amongst a broad

11 segment of people. Anybody who could conceivably have been responsible

12 was looked at.

13 Q. All right. Let me ask you about that, then. What you're telling

14 us is, then, that you played a part in meetings at which it was discussed

15 who might be indicted in the Tribunal and who would not?

16 A. Well, there were meetings where very -- various possible targets

17 and possible avenues of investigation were discussed. I was not there

18 when it was discussed who specifically would be a target of a formal

19 investigation. I was there discussing -- at meetings where possible

20 indictments were discussed, though, after the formal investigations had

21 been opened.

22 Q. I understand that that was not your decision, sir, so my question,

23 really, is just this: It would be reasonable to assume that your opinions

24 were taken into account in making certain decisions as to who might be

25 suspects and who should be indicted. Would that be fair?

Page 6198

1 A. Well, to know how seriously, you'd have to ask Mr. Scott and the

2 other senior attorneys.

3 Q. I'm really not concerned to know how seriously. I'm just asking

4 whether it's reasonable for us to think that your opinion was taken into

5 account.

6 A. Well, as far as my opinions on what, in fact, happened, yes. I

7 don't know if my -- I never expressed opinions saying, "Well, you could

8 charge so-and-so for this and could charge so-and-so for that." But my

9 opinions, when I was asked, for example, "What is in the Narodni List,"

10 and asked "What do these documents tell us," I've always told the

11 Prosecution section what I thought about those things. And since they

12 keep asking me, I presume they did take me seriously on those issues, yes.

13 Q. Other than interviewing these persons that we've discussed, did

14 you play any other part in the investigation of the case against these

15 accused?

16 A. Well, yes, although it's not strictly directly, but one of the

17 biggest duties I've had over the years I've been here is bringing in the

18 documentation from archival missions and -- and dealing with materials

19 which we were acquiring, many of which were used in this case, many more

20 of which were not.

21 Q. And as the evidence accumulated, did you attend strategy sessions

22 or other meetings as to how the case should be developed?

23 A. Yes, I did, and I would receive further tasks on which things

24 needed to be researched further.

25 Q. Before the trial started in this case late in April, did you have

Page 6199

1 any tasks in assisting the Prosecutors to prepare for trial?

2 A. This April?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. 2006.

5 Q. Before the trial started, yes.

6 A. Well, I was working on this report. I was assigned to do this in

7 November of 2005. However, I was working on another case till about

8 February. So I was working on this report more or less steadily from

9 February through April of this year.

10 Q. Did it ever occur to you to look for sources of information

11 outside the Office of the Prosecutor?

12 A. Well, it's always occurring to us to look for more information

13 from outside the office. We always would welcome more information.

14 Q. On the first day that you gave evidence, you said, and I can refer

15 you to the transcript if you wish, that your approach to this case was

16 really no different from that of an academic expert looking at these

17 things from the outside. Do you remember saying that?

18 A. I don't think I put it in those words. I believe -- I believe Mr.

19 Scott asked me the question, "Would you have done anything differently

20 were you not working for the Prosecution?" And I said, no, that my

21 approach was the same as it would have been if I was from the outside.

22 However, and I added, and this is certainly true, if I was coming from the

23 outside I wouldn't have access to this much material, nor would I have had

24 this much time to become familiar with these things.

25 Q. Well, I have the transcript here, and I'll just read to you what

Page 6200

1 you said, if I may.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. This is, for the record, the transcript of the 4th of September,

4 and I'm beginning at page 16, line 23. I'm beginning, really, in

5 mid-sentence. Mr. Scott asked you:

6 "... can you tell the Judges, sir, is there anything about your

7 approach or the methodology of the work that you did in connection with

8 your report or about observations that you have made in your report that

9 in your view would be any different if you had performed this work while

10 not employed by the Office of the Prosecutor?"

11 And then your answer begins at page 17, line 6:

12 "No, with one very clear exception. I can't imagine I'd be able

13 to look at as much of this material and have as much time to get to know

14 this much material as well if I hadn't been working here full time for

15 seven and a half years. But other than that, I didn't reach -- I don't

16 think -- if I'd been, say, an academic expert looking at these things from

17 the outside, I can't imagine how it would have been any different or how

18 my conclusions would have been any different ..."

19 Now, sir, today you have agreed with me that for several years you

20 played an active role in investigating this case; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You consulted with respect to many important decisions.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Some of which may have determined whether certain people became

25 accused in this case or whether they did not.

Page 6201

1 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly how much my work contributed to who was

2 indicted and who was not, especially in terms of amounts, although

3 certainly it was -- it certainly was considered.

4 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, as an historian, would you not agree with me

5 that in looking at the history of any conflict one must treat with a

6 little caution the opinions expressed by people who were actively involved

7 in one side or the other?

8 A. Absolutely. In history you should treat it with caution, and in a

9 trial you should probably treat it with even greater caution.

10 Q. And your position, sir, in this case is not that of an academic

11 expert but somebody who is intimately and deeply involved with one of the

12 parties to the case. Isn't that right?

13 A. Well, yes. However, I was never told what sort of conclusions I

14 should reach. I was only given the parameters of what it is I should be

15 looking at. And I should add that, even though I was involved, certainly

16 my opinions were taken into consideration I'm sure at any points in the

17 investigations and also for preparation for trial. I don't have any

18 particular personal stake in the outcome of the trial.

19 Q. But you would agree with me, sir, that your position is actually

20 very different from that of an academic expert, wouldn't you?

21 A. Yes, and I know the Tribunal treats internal experts differently

22 from external experts.

23 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you some other questions. You told

24 us -- you were born in the United States. Is that right, sir?

25 A. Yes, I was, in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Page 6202

1 Q. Are you a citizen of any other country?

2 A. No, I am not.

3 Q. Do you hold a passport from any other country?

4 A. No. I have the United Nations LP for travel, but, no, I have no

5 other citizenship.

6 Q. And what's the ethnic origin of your family, if I may ask?

7 A. Well, you're probably more interested in my father's family. My

8 mother's family is partly -- mainly German, partly English. My mother has

9 no connection with the former Yugoslavia other than marrying my father.

10 And my grandparents, the last time they came to the United States was

11 shortly before my father's birth. So it -- they probably would have come

12 to the United States about 1925, give or take a year, my grandparents.

13 Q. Yes, okay. I'm not sure you answered the question, but your

14 ethnic origin is --

15 A. Oh, well --

16 Q. On your father's side.

17 A. Croatian.

18 Q. Croatian.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. And do I gather, then, from what you said that your

21 grandparents emigrated from Croatia to the United States? Is that what

22 you said?

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. In 1925?

25 A. Give or take a year. Certainly before 1927, because my father was

Page 6203

1 born in the United States.

2 Q. Yes. And did you learn Croatian, grow up speaking it at home, or

3 did --

4 A. A little bit, because my grandmother never did learn to speak

5 English particularly well. So I learned some at home. And then I learned

6 more travelling to Zagreb while I was in university, and I studied it in

7 university. And then I became really proficient using it as an historian,

8 both as an undergraduate and as a graduate student.

9 Q. Now, of course, at the ICTY we're generally supposed to refer to

10 the language as B/C/S. What do you call it when you're not here?

11 A. Well, for example, if I was talking to a Bosnian friend -- it

12 depends. What I would be speaking I would call Croatian. If they're a

13 Bosnian friend or a Serbian friend I would call what they're speaking

14 Croatian or Serbian. And then I know quite frequently in the United

15 States, amongst mixed groups of people, we just frequently call it "nas

16 jezik", or "our language" generically.

17 Q. All right. Did your grandparents emigrate for political reasons?

18 A. No. Purely for very, very pressing economic reasons. My

19 grandfather had to come three times. He could never find work going home.

20 Q. I see.

21 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, would this be a convenient moment to

22 take a break? I think I've lost track of time a little bit.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's 25 to 6.00. We will have a

24 20-minute break, and we'll resume in 20 minutes exactly.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.

Page 6204

1 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Murphy.

3 MR. MURPHY: [Interpretation] I'd just like to know whether I'm

4 going too fast for the French booth.

5 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, I'm told by the legal officer that you would

6 like to clarify an answer that you gave previously; is that right?

7 A. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Murphy. I just realised when I sat

8 down here, looking at the transcript, that I misspoke. I didn't want to

9 give the impression that I would call what somebody Bosnian speaks

10 Croatian. If I was talking to someone who was Bosnian or Serbian, I

11 should say that I would call what they were speaking Bosnian or Serbian,

12 and what I would be speaking, Croatian. I didn't mean to imply that

13 Bosnians are speaking Croatian.

14 Q. All right. Thank you very much. As an historian with a

15 particular interest in the Balkans, I would imagine you take an active

16 interest in Croatian politics?

17 A. Yes, although certainly much more now than before I started

18 working here.

19 Q. And, of course, with your ethnic origin, that would also give you

20 an interest in what happens in the Republic of Croatia.

21 A. Yes, absolutely.

22 Q. If you can't answer this question, or you'd like me to put it in a

23 different way, please tell me: As between the politics of the Tudjman

24 administration and the president -- present government of Croatia, where

25 does your preference lie?

Page 6205

1 A. Well, my preference both before and after working here, and it

2 doesn't influence my work, but my preference would definitely be

3 politically with the current president, Mr. Mesic, rather than Mr.

4 Tudjman.

5 Q. So you would disapprove of some of the actions or decisions taken

6 by the Tudjman administration?

7 A. Yes. It would be hard to -- to work here and see everything I've

8 seen and not.

9 Q. Well, let's go back to the period round about 1990, 1991. Were

10 you at that time following events in the former Yugoslavia?

11 A. Yes, I was.

12 Q. Both as an historian, or at least an advanced student of history,

13 and also someone who had a personal interest in what was going on?

14 A. Yes, and a very direct interest. I was supposed to have gone to

15 Zagreb in the summer of 1991.

16 Q. Did it become apparent to you at some particular time that the

17 former Yugoslavia was on the point of dissolution?

18 A. Yes, and I think I can just about date -- I always have one

19 particular memory in mind of that as well.

20 Q. Can you tell us what that date was, approximately?

21 A. Well, I remember being in the -- I think it was in the basement of

22 the Yale library, and this would have been late 1988, early 1989, and

23 reading a copy of Nin, which is a Serbian news weekly and thinking to

24 myself, Good heavens, if what's -- if they -- if whoever wrote this

25 believes what they wrote, war is a real possibility.

Page 6206

1 Q. All right. Now, when the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia

2 began, as we know, certain of the -- of what had previously been republics

3 within the federation began to become independent states, didn't they?

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 Q. First of all Slovenia and then Croatia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And after that, the question arose of what would happen to Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At that time, what was your opinion as to what the political

11 solution in Bosnia and Herzegovina should be?

12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, excuse me. Apologies to Mr. Murphy for

13 interrupting. Your Honour, I've been silent up until now, but I think

14 some of these things, we're getting far afield from what is really

15 relevant to this testimony. The witness has indicated a number of times

16 already that his personal opinions did not enter into his work. I've

17 certainly allowed Mr. Murphy to go on for some considerable period as to

18 his personal feelings and background, but I think now we're getting into

19 things that -- unless there's some showing -- there can be some showing of

20 some connection, I think we should move forward.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, the witness has presented --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy, what is the

24 relevance? What is the link? Because I can see that you're asking him

25 about his political opinions. You could have quite easily said that

Page 6207

1 they're manifested in a vote. He's played along with you. He's answered

2 your questions. You're following the same line of questioning, though,

3 which means that there is something you want to demonstrate.

4 MR. MURPHY: The witness has presented himself as being a neutral

5 and objective expert, and it was simply my intention to explore the extent

6 of his neutrality, so to speak. But I can do that quite briefly and move

7 on.

8 Q. Let me just pose one specific question, then, sir, and I'll move

9 on. Was it your opinion that Bosnia and Herzegovina should become an

10 independent state with a heterogeneous population?

11 A. Yes, because I didn't see any real viable alternative to that.

12 Certainly the borders which were established, the so-called AVNOJ borders

13 or the post World War II borders between the republics certainly might not

14 be ideal, and certainly you leave a lot of people on the wrong side of a

15 frontier if you draw lines. But I'm not sure they could be improved upon

16 necessarily, and plus that -- that opens up all sorts of other problems if

17 you start interfering with those borders.

18 Certainly, personally, the solution I would have liked to have

19 seen most is any solution which would have allowed people in Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina to be able to live where they did before the war and continue

21 to live there and continue to live normal lives as they did before the

22 war.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I want to move on to ask you some

24 questions about the HZ HB and the HR HB, as you have given evidence about

25 them.

Page 6208

1 First of all, I think we're agreed that the decision on taking the

2 -- on founding the HZ HB was taken on the 18th of November, 1991; is that

3 right?

4 A. The formal decision, yes, although the decision to make that

5 decision was made on the 12th of November.

6 Q. Yes. Now, at that time, this was some time before Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina was recognised as an independent state by the United States

8 and the European Union; is that right?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. Do you remember when that recognition was given to Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina?

12 A. I believe it's the first week of April, I think, and I'm not

13 positive, April 6th, of --

14 Q. Of 1992.

15 A. -- 1992. Yes.

16 Q. Yes. So when the HZ HB was established, it was established on the

17 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina but before that territory was

18 recognised as an independent state. Would you agree?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if you would now, sir, turn -- I have a number of questions to

21 ask you based on your report, if you have that available, please.

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 MR. MURPHY: And if the members of the Court have the report, I'm

24 going to page 10 initially, and paragraph 13.

25 Q. And you're dealing there with a particular document. Can you

Page 6209

1 remind us what that document is?

2 A. Well, if it's citation number 20, those would be the conclusions

3 of the meeting of the 12th of November, 1991, which is the meeting I was

4 discussing just a second ago, which is the decision to decide to establish

5 Herceg-Bosna in the near future.

6 Q. Yes. And if you look down in paragraph 13, about seven lines from

7 the bottom, there is a phrase quoted from the document, "... forces in

8 favour of a non-existent sovereign BiH," and at the time that phrase was

9 quite accurate, wasn't it?

10 A. Well, if you're thinking in terms of international recognition,

11 yes. However, my reading of that is that they're referring to persons

12 like Mr. Kljuic, who were still in favour of Bosnian -- Bosnian integrity.

13 Q. Then the citation goes on, "... in which the Croatian people would

14 be condemned to genocide and elimination from history."

15 Now, would you agree, based on your research, that that kind of

16 language of mutual accusations -- I'm sorry.

17 JUDGE PRANDLER: [Microphone not activated]. Let me start again.

18 When you referred to that -- actually, to that citation by the witness,

19 that is, with all these forces, "that we tried to stop these inevitable

20 forces," et cetera, there you referred to the transcript but I did not

21 find it, " which the Croatian people would be condemned to genocide

22 and elimination from history." I frankly don't find that one. Is it in

23 the same paragraph 13 or do you take that -- that part of your quotation

24 from another document -- I mean from another place in this report?

25 MR. MURPHY: No, it's in paragraph 13 of the report, Your Honour,

Page 6210

1 on page 10.

2 JUDGE PRANDLER: Yes. Actually, I see now that in that --

3 because, frankly, I merely studied the paragraph 13 and the footnote 20,

4 and afterwards 22, but now I see that you quoted that particular part

5 after footnote 21.

6 MR. MURPHY: That's right, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PRANDLER: "... party leadership at that time that there

8 were still forces in favour of a non-existent," et cetera.

9 MR. MURPHY: Yes.

10 JUDGE PRANDLER: Now I found it. Thank you very much.

11 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Tomljanovich, language of that kind, in your experience,

13 talking about genocide and elimination, was used by all parties to the

14 conflict at different times, wasn't it?

15 A. Yeah. Individuals from all parties used language like that in

16 this conflict.

17 Q. As a form, in a way, of propaganda?

18 A. Yes, although in some instances fairly well justified.

19 Q. It's not unusual for states or entities who feel threatened to --

20 to use propaganda of that kind, is it?

21 Well, let me give you a concrete example. You're familiar with

22 the phrase "the axis of evil," aren't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Isn't it a fairly normal reaction of a state that perceives itself

25 to be under threat to use strong language about their perceived enemy;

Page 6211

1 isn't that right?

2 A. In theory, yes, although I don't think in the case of the axis of

3 evil that particular inflammatory language was justified. But sometimes

4 people -- sometimes politicians do use inflammatory language, yes.

5 Q. Yes. Well, that's really, I think, my point.

6 At the time when the HZ HB was established, it was a time of great

7 uncertainty in the former Yugoslavia. Would you agree?

8 A. Yes, absolutely. At the same time it was established, the city of

9 Vukovar fell to the JNA and Serb forces, and there was a pitched war going

10 on in Croatia. Yes, absolutely.

11 Q. And, indeed, to some extent at least, the JNA and the Serb forces

12 were using the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina from which to launch an

13 attack against Croatia. Would you agree?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, as you point out in your report, shortly before the HZ HB was

16 established, the Serbs had set up their own entities, the beginning to --

17 what eventually became the so-called Serb autonomous areas; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that at that time the

20 Serbs represented a serious military threat to the non-Serb inhabitants of

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes, and events bore that out.

23 Q. Now, let me ask you now a few questions about the HZ HB and some

24 of the things that were done during that are period. You told us and gave

25 many examples that an Official Gazette, the Narodni List, was published;

Page 6212

1 is that right?

2 A. Yes, it was.

3 Q. And this was an official journal in which decrees and other

4 decisions were published.

5 A. Yes. It was an Official Gazette, yes. Decrees and decisions and

6 other enactments were published, yes.

7 Q. And that would be the official record of those acts; right?

8 A. Well, certainly not the only one, because there were a fair number

9 of decisions and decrees which were not published in Narodni List as

10 well. But, yes, it is -- it is the main place where such things were

11 published, yes.

12 Q. But you also mentioned in your report that there was a department

13 called the subdepartment for information that published other information,

14 things that were not published in Narodni List; is that right?

15 A. Well, I think there were subdepartments for information. There

16 may have been more than one department. Do you remember which department

17 we're talking about?

18 Q. Well, I was looking --

19 A. Welfare and --

20 Q. In your reports I think I was looking at page 36, and paragraph

21 87. Right at the end of paragraph 87, there you said, "The HVO decided

22 which materials from the meetings were made public."

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then you mentioned that --

25 A. Yes, yeah.

Page 6213

1 Q. -- "Information not made public was given to the subdepartment of

2 information that then published a separate information bulletin."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in addition to all of that, as you've demonstrated to us, they

5 kept numerous reports of meetings.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Minutes of numbered meetings?

8 A. Yes. Our record isn't complete of all the numbered meetings, but

9 quite a few. We have quite a few, and I'm sure they kept -- at one point

10 I'm sure there were complete sets.

11 Q. They generated a very large amount of paper, didn't they?

12 A. Oh, absolutely. I've always pointed out to people it's hard -- if

13 you haven't worked in the archives you have no idea. This is the first

14 war that was fought by people with computer printers and photocopying

15 machines. So it's enormous amounts of paper, yes.

16 Q. I suppose my point in asking you these questions is this: That

17 those who established and operated the HZ HB did it in a fairly open and

18 public fashion, didn't they?

19 A. That depends what you think of in terms of "open". The

20 declaration itself on the 18th of November was open and public. Because

21 of events in Croatia, it got very little space in the press. And I also

22 believe - and this is way beyond the scope of this paper - I believe that

23 not everybody in the HDZ BiH was aware of it immediately before it was

24 going to happen.

25 Q. Well, of course, we can't always control what appears in the press

Page 6214

1 and what doesn't, but the fact of the matter is they issued a vast number

2 of documents that were available to the public.

3 A. Oh, you mean over the whole course of its existence, not just when

4 it was established.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Oh, yes. Yes, and most of that -- and the Narodni Lists are

7 extremely useful for understanding what they were doing. They're public,

8 but they're extremely useful, yes.

9 Q. These were not people that were hiding away in a corner, were

10 they?

11 A. Not everything they did was public, but certainly who they were

12 was public, yes.

13 Q. Yes. And, of course, diplomacy is by nature sometimes secret,

14 isn't it?

15 A. In principle, although I don't know -- are you just talking about

16 politics in general or actual international diplomacy?

17 Q. Diplomacy.

18 A. Sometimes. Not always.

19 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you, please, to go to page 11 of your

20 report. And I just want to draw attention to some of the -- some of the

21 decisions and things that were done by the HZ HB that I think perhaps have

22 not been emphasised quite enough.

23 In paragraph 16, we're dealing now, are we not, with the decision

24 to establish the HZ HB? Is that right?

25 A. Yes, we are.

Page 6215

1 Q. And you point out in paragraph 16 of your report that one of the

2 things that was contained there in Article 5 was "a conditional respect

3 for the democratically elected bodies of authority of the Republic of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina."

5 A. Yes, being conditional on their maintaining independence from the

6 former or any future Yugoslavia.

7 Q. Yes. And then in paragraph 17 of your report, you record that in

8 Article 6 they directly accept responsibility for enforcing international

9 law; is that right?

10 A. Yes, absolutely. They directly subordinate themselves to

11 international law.

12 Q. Just pausing there for a moment. There is some similarity, isn't

13 there, between -- in a way, between the language of that decision and the

14 language which you'll be familiar with in the Declaration of Independence

15 of the United States. Do you see any resemblance there?

16 A. Well, quite a bit, because even though this isn't a formal

17 declaration of independence, it virtually is a declaration of

18 independence.

19 Q. Well, the 13 colonies in the United States set up an entity on the

20 sovereign territory of Great Britain, didn't they?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. Because they had some grievances against the British government

23 which were not resolved.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As an historian, you're aware, aren't you, that in one sense

Page 6216

1 history is written by the winners?

2 A. In one sense, yes.

3 Q. If the War of Independence in the United States had gone the other

4 way, George Washington and others would have been probably hanged for

5 treason, wouldn't they?

6 A. Well, not only that. If you look at Canadian history, it's also

7 -- that is presented from the other side as well.

8 Q. Let's go to page 21 of your report. In paragraph 48 there and the

9 following paragraph, paragraph 49, you record that HZ HB -- that while

10 there was an order there signed by Mr. Boban on organising, operating and

11 jurisdiction of the judiciary.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And there were a number of documents in which the HZ HB were

14 concerned to set up a system of courts; is that right? A system of

15 justice.

16 A. Not just a system of justice, but especially after, I think,

17 October of 1992 an independent system of justice.

18 Q. Yes. And, again, in a similar vein, going to page 30, 3-0, of

19 your report, paragraph 77, we see that they adopt a code of criminal law.

20 A. Well, they're adopting the existing code of criminal law, and by

21 adopting it they're making the existing Bosnian -- Republic of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina Criminal Code, they're putting it into effect for

23 Herceg-Bosna.

24 Q. Right. And then on page 48 of your report, paragraph 119, you

25 tell us that they were keeping statistics about crime in the Department of

Page 6217

1 Internal Affairs.

2 A. Yes, they were.

3 Q. Details of how many crimes had been committed, what kind of

4 crimes, and even how many of them had been solved.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that was a continuing concern throughout the lifetime of the

7 HZ HB, wasn't it?

8 A. Yes. There was a great deal of time spent on the organs of

9 justice.

10 Q. And so my point, I suppose, in these questions is that the

11 organisers of HZ HB seemed to have a particular concern with the rule of

12 law. Wouldn't you agree?

13 A. Yes, but I'm not sure I'd say that they extended the rule of law

14 to all persons within their jurisdiction.

15 Q. Well, we'll come to that. But certainly it's a remarkable amount

16 of ink and paper that was expended on the establishment of a judicial

17 system.

18 A. Oh, yes. And not only that, a lot of money and effort spent on

19 various law enforcement agencies, which isn't easy when you have to pay

20 a war as well. So, yes.

21 Q. Well, you raise a good point. In fact, one of the interesting

22 things here is that, almost throughout the lifetime of the HZ HB,

23 everything they were doing was in the context of also conducting an armed

24 conflict, wasn't it?

25 A. Yeah. There was -- yes, there was an armed conflict going on of

Page 6218

1 varying intensities during this entire period.

2 Q. Yes. First against the Serbs, and then later in the conflict with

3 the Muslim forces.

4 A. Yes, although I should -- I should qualify my answer a little bit

5 now that I think about it. The actual fighting doesn't really begin until

6 late March of 1992, and the HZ HB exists already in November. But there's

7 sporadic fighting with the Serbs through much of 1992, and beginning in

8 October of 1992 there's sporadic fighting with ABiH and other Muslim

9 forces, which then becomes steady, open fighting from -- beginning in the

10 spring of 1993 in different places with greatly different intensity; and

11 then extremely intense conflict in the summer and fall of 1993.

12 Q. And in those circumstances, it wouldn't really be surprising,

13 would it, if there was some gap between what they set out to do as

14 recorded in the documents and what they were actually able to achieve on

15 the ground?

16 A. Oh, of course.

17 Q. It wouldn't be surprising if some of the good intentions got lost

18 in the demands of fighting a war.

19 A. Well, I'm not sure I'd put it that way, because that implies that

20 I know of their intentions and that there were good intentions.

21 Q. True.

22 A. So that's a value judgement as well.

23 Q. Well, let's remove the word "good" and just say some of their

24 intentions, then.

25 A. Oh, certainly, I'm sure not everything turn out as planned.

Page 6219

1 Q. All right. If you could -- now, I'd just like to focus on a

2 related issue since we had mentioned the rule of law. Could you please go

3 now to page 22 of your report, and I'm referring to paragraph 51. But

4 this was dealing with the decree on the armed forces; is that right?

5 A. Yes. And this is the original decree on the armed forces --

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. -- before it's revised. This is the original one from the 3rd of

8 July, yes.

9 Q. Yes, I understand. And on the top of the following page, page 23,

10 we see that "every citizen of HZ HB who, in an organised manner and in

11 conformity with international law," and then some other words, "shall be

12 considered a member of the armed forces."

13 So at that early stage we see a reference to international law

14 again, don't we?

15 A. There's a number of references to international law in various

16 decrees and orders all throughout this period. And it's also worth noting

17 that it's an immediate recognition of international law with no

18 subordinate level of government mentioned between them and international

19 law.

20 Q. Yes. In fact, if you go to the next page, page 24, and paragraph,

21 6-0, there is another reference there to international law and the

22 obligation of the armed forces to respect international law; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes, there is.

25 Q. On the following page, page 25, and paragraph 62, we see the

Page 6220

1 decree on the treatment of persons captured in armed fighting, and so on.

2 And, by the way, to save time, Mr. Tomljanovich, I'm not asking for these

3 exhibits to be shown, but if you want to see them, please let me know and

4 I'll be glad to do that. But, again, here the decree stipulates that the

5 persons captured must be treated in accordance with the Geneva

6 Conventions.

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. On page 54 of your report, in the section where you deal

9 specifically with war crimes offices, in paragraph 138 and following, you

10 deal with the setting up of a commission to investigate war crimes?

11 A. Yes. And there were, I think, at least two of them as well -- it

12 mentions here the Department of Internal Affairs made reference to

13 investigating war crimes. And I know -- I don't know if I mentioned it in

14 this report, but the military counter-intelligence, SIS, also investigated

15 war crimes.

16 Q. And that was a continuing concern with -- throughout the period

17 that you dealt with in your report, wasn't it? The investigations of war

18 crimes.

19 A. Yes, although I should add that the references to war crimes in

20 these documents insofar as they are specific, they mention specifically

21 that these are Serb and Muslim war crimes. And in all of the documents

22 I've seen of investigating war crimes from this period, and I've seen,

23 collecting them in the archives, quite a few, it's always with the crimes

24 committed by Serbian and Muslim forces.

25 Q. Well, in that regard, will you please turn to page 86 of your

Page 6221

1 report, would you, Mr. Tomljanovich.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President. Mr. President, if I might, just as a

3 procedural matter, I'm reminded that when I tendered the exhibits, we

4 didn't number the report, and to ease the record and for Mr. Murphy's

5 reference, the report should be P 09545, please. Thank you.

6 MR. MURPHY: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.

7 Q. Do you have page 86 of your report, sir?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Page 236.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This is actually in the middle of a description of a meeting that

12 took place in Citluk on the 29th of April, 1993, about which you gave

13 evidence yesterday. Do you recall?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. And paragraph 236, you record that a statement was issued --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- in which there, about five lines down, it says:

18 "We're deeply concerned about the reports of murders and crimes

19 perpetrated by both sides in Central Bosnia and Northern Herzegovina. The

20 appointed commission will be resolute in uncovering the perpetrators from

21 our side, and they will be brought to justice without compromise.

22 Vengeance is not an acceptable excuse for crime, and therefore all members

23 of HVO units are warned of the necessity of maintaining a humane

24 relationship with civilians. Moreover, receiving an order to commit

25 crimes cannot be used as an alibi in court."

Page 6222

1 So I think you'd have to modify the answer you gave me previously,

2 wouldn't you?

3 A. No, I would not, but I would make it clearer. What I was saying,

4 or at least trying to say - if I didn't correctly, I'll state it again and

5 state it more clearly - I never stated that there were not declarations

6 made that war crimes by the Croat side would be investigated. What I

7 said, or what I meant to say if I didn't say it, was that as far as I

8 know, no one was brought to justice.

9 And I've -- with the exception of Croatian SIS documents about the

10 events in Ahmici, I don't think I've ever seen any documents of any

11 investigation during this period of any particular crimes, nor did I --

12 nor -- what you said is certainly true, they did mention this. As far as

13 I know, they never actually did it.

14 Q. But you have, in fact, seen a document in which war crimes are

15 referred to that were not committed against the Croats?

16 A. Oh, yes, I've seen it referred to frequently, but I haven't seen

17 -- aside from, like I say, just off the top of my head, and this goes way

18 beyond what I put together for today, aside from what I saw on the

19 Croatian -- the Republic of Croatia investigating or making inquiries into

20 the events in Ahmici, I don't recall ever seeing any actual investigative

21 material on such crimes or any investigation being carried out.

22 Q. If you would go now, please, with me to page 108 of your report,

23 paragraph 302. We're now talking about the HR HB. "The Adoption of

24 Documents on the Protection and Exercise of Human Freedoms"; do you see

25 that?

Page 6223

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And, as I understand your report here, what this document does is

3 to adopt in full a large number of the most important international

4 conventions on human rights, if I can broadly say it in that way.

5 Conventions on human rights.

6 A. Yes, it does. It adopts all of those conventions.

7 Q. And finally on this point, if you would go to page 112 and

8 paragraph 314, I think you're dealing here with the first session of the

9 government of HR HB. And about -- just more than a little over halfway,

10 perhaps, down that paragraph, we see again there was a call for all organs

11 of the HR HB to observe international laws of war and human rights.

12 A. Yes, and I believe that was Mr. Boban making that particular

13 appeal.

14 Q. Yes. Now, I want to next ask you a number of questions, just a

15 few, really, about some of the positions taken by Mr. Stojic in connection

16 with --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question. You asked

18 the witness about the chapter concerning the war crimes office.

19 You said that you conducted research and that you found no trace

20 of any investigation into war crimes committed by HVO members. In

21 paragraph 139, we can see that this commission was established by the

22 interior affairs department. But with regard to the judicial system and

23 the prosecutors that should exist, because the judicial system was

24 established, was put in place, did you consider that from that point of

25 view? Because this war crimes commission depended on the Ministry of the

Page 6224

1 Interior. And when a crime is committed, then it usually comes under the

2 Ministry of Military Justice or the civilian ministry.

3 Did you look at those different aspects of the question? Because

4 it wasn't because there wasn't an investigation at this level that it

5 didn't exist at another level, for example, in the civilian sector or the

6 military justice system. That's what I'd like to hear from you.

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I should clarify a few things first, in

8 case I've given a wrong impression.

9 I've never undertaken any particular study with the purpose of

10 finding whether or not war crimes were investigated and what sort of war

11 crimes were investigated. As part of my duties finding archival records,

12 I've come across quite a few documents from various sorts of law

13 enforcement persons and I've never seen, like I said, aside from the one

14 example of the Croatian authorities looking into Ahmici, I've never seen

15 anything specifically myself, which doesn't mean there wasn't something

16 necessarily. Certainly nothing -- nothing public and nothing in the

17 records I've seen. But certainly these sorts of activities could take

18 place.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Murphy. Unless

20 you wanted to finish. Yes.


22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do apologise, yes.

23 THE WITNESS: I apologise to the interpreters, because I was

24 running ahead and then I was waiting. That's why I stopped for so long.

25 No. All I was trying to say is that I don't know of any such

Page 6225

1 thing having taken place. Now -- and I've looked at quite a few records.

2 An investigation could have been initiated at many different

3 levels, and certainly with other crimes it was, both with -- from the

4 Interior Ministry, from the military prosecutors, from the civilian

5 prosecutors, or from -- I don't know specifically what these -- you know,

6 the commissions could have done as far as initiating legal action. I just

7 know they exist and what it says in the orders establishing them.


9 Q. Well, following up on the President's question, Mr. Tomljanovich,

10 I noticed on a number of occasions during your evidence that you said that

11 it's possible something happened but you didn't necessarily look at the

12 documents in which that would be recorded.

13 A. Yes. And I should state this very clearly to the Court.

14 Everything I'm saying is based on the documentary record which is

15 available to me. Now, that record is not complete. We were never given

16 complete access to all documents which were produced at that time. So

17 it's always possible that there's things which are contained in other

18 records or not recorded which we don't know about.

19 Q. It's also possible that there are certain things contained in

20 documents that you could have looked at but chose not to.

21 A. That's always very possible, although I can assure you I do it in

22 good faith.

23 Q. I'm just trying to establish the facts, Mr. Tomljanovich, that's

24 all. For example, you told us just today, and this is in today's

25 transcript at page 28, line 21, Mr. Scott was asking you some questions

Page 6226

1 about the detention facilities, and you said that you deliberately limited

2 what you looked at because it would be too large of a task. I wrote those

3 words down as you said them. And I suppose my question is: Were there

4 other areas of your report where you deliberately limited what you looked

5 at simply because you thought the task would be too great?

6 A. Yes. And I was very careful with all of this report to try and

7 limit and define the limits of what it was I was trying to accomplish. I

8 only wanted to look at the structures and -- governmental and political

9 structures and processes of Herceg-Bosna in this period. There's a lot of

10 other things which go beyond that which I've been asked questions about,

11 and I've tried my best to answer those questions, but I'm also very much

12 aware that a lot of other evidence -- what I'm presenting is only one

13 small part of this whole trial, and I don't want to spread myself too thin

14 and to engage in areas which would more appropriately be dealt with by

15 someone else.

16 Q. You also testified today that -- this was at page 30, line 4 of

17 the transcript. It followed a question that you'd been asked by Judge

18 Prandler. You said that you didn't look for documents concerning visits

19 by the ICRC and others to the detention facilities, other than the one

20 relating to the visit in August.

21 A. Not in the preparation of this report, no. In this report, I

22 tried to limit myself to the de jure structures and to a few de facto

23 incidents of the structures and processes in action and functioning. I

24 didn't try to cover all of the things which happened with the camps

25 comprehensively. Certainly not.

Page 6227

1 Q. So you didn't think it was a part of your function to explore how

2 the structure of the HZ HB had worked in practice?

3 A. No. As a matter of fact, I did. That's what the second part of

4 my report is all about. It's certainly not intended, however, to be any

5 sort of comprehensive history of Herceg-Bosna, and I've limited myself to

6 those things which I had evidence on which best illustrated the actual de

7 facto functioning of these organs.

8 Q. Is it possible, sir, that when you say -- speak of limiting your

9 search, you limited it to things that you thought would be useful to the

10 Prosecution's case?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. And I'm very much aware, and I have been aware since 1999, of my

14 Rule 68 obligations.

15 Q. Sir, do I take that as an indication that you would work with the

16 Prosecutors to decide what materials should be disclosed under Rule 68?

17 A. Well, what we did is, if I uncover any material which I think may

18 be exculpatory to any of the accused - not just in this case but in all

19 cases, with all perpetrator groups - I have a duty to report that, and I

20 report that to the lawyers responsible for the case.

21 Q. All right. By the way, since we've got back on -- I didn't really

22 intend to, but since we're back for a moment on your work with the OTP,

23 before beginning your evidence, have you been following this case as it's

24 been going along?

25 A. Somewhat. I haven't had the opportunity to watch very much of

Page 6228

1 it. I think I caught a little bit of the opening arguments, but only a

2 little bit. I was here physically watching about an hour, maybe an hour

3 and a half, of Mr. Kljuic's testimony. I'm aware of which witnesses are

4 being called, even though I've been busy working on this sort of -- on

5 this report and my testimony, I'm certainly kept informed of who is coming

6 in. And aside from what I hear in the office, it's also reported every

7 day in the news -- well, not every day necessarily, but frequently in the

8 newspapers as well.

9 Q. Have you assisted at all in the preparation of other witnesses to

10 testify?

11 A. Yes. I helped Mr. Donia with some of his exhibits and his maps.

12 Q. When you say helped him, you mean you discussed the facts with

13 him?

14 A. No. He was in San Diego much of the time and he had to send them

15 here. And I also suggested some particular maps and I had to find another

16 problem -- he used quite a few here. He's testified many times here

17 before the Tribunal. He had quite a few maps and he didn't have the ERN

18 numbers for. So I did that and I did a lot of clerical things for him.

19 Q. I'm not really so much concerned with clerical things. When I

20 speak of preparing witnesses, I mean have you been concerned with

21 preparing them in the sense of advising them about their testimony or the

22 facts or things of --

23 A. No, I haven't been present, I don't think. I don't think I've

24 been present. No, I'm sure I haven't been present for any witness

25 proofings.

Page 6229

1 Q. All right.

2 A. In this case.

3 Q. All right. I just have a few more questions. Hopefully we can

4 finish by 7.00 with my cross-examination.

5 Regarding Mr. Stojic, could you please go to page 26 of your

6 report for a moment. And in paragraph 65, we find there Mr. Stojic

7 issuing a mandatory directive "to provide consistency and uniform

8 application of disciplinary regulations." Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, and I remember that particular decree.

10 Q. And Mr. Stojic was insisting that there be consistency in the way

11 in which the laws should be applied, wasn't he?

12 A. Yes, and he had a list of appropriate punishments for particular

13 things.

14 Q. On page 47 of your report, if you would go there, please. Just at

15 the top there - this is midway through the paragraph - you refer to Mr.

16 Stojic reporting on military issues. This is at the top of the page. Do

17 you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that he did so on the 29th of September, 1992.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "His reporting included the importance of setting up military

22 courts and military prosecutors' offices for the sake of efficiency and

23 military discipline"; is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Page 51, please, of your report, paragraph 129. Again, we have a

Page 6230

1 session of the HVO on the 28th of December, 1992. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Mr. Stojic reports that the military courts are still not

4 functioning; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And about six lines up from the bottom of that page, he argues

7 that the military police could not function without the courts. Yes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that if the courts didn't begin to function soon, he would

10 release all the prisoners.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And there, I think we could find other references also to Mr.

13 Stojic being very concerned that the system of military justice should

14 work efficiently. Would you agree?

15 A. Yes, and that was one of his responsibilities.

16 Q. Yes. It was a matter with which, as far as the documents reflect,

17 he was personally very concerned.

18 A. Yes. Well, I should -- I should -- "concerned" implies that I

19 know something about his state of mind. I can say that he certainly spent

20 a lot of time dealing with these issues.

21 Q. Have you ever had access, sir, to the archives of the prosecutor

22 or the courts of the HZ HB?

23 A. I personally have not worked with those documents, although I

24 believe, and I'm not sure, that a number of those documents were turned

25 over to the Prosecutor. I believe -- actually, once I think about it, I

Page 6231

1 know that other persons who I know from my office have looked at those

2 materials. Now that I think about it, yes. But I haven't worked with

3 those materials.

4 Q. So you did not look at any of those documents for the purposes of

5 compiling this report that you've produced for this case?

6 A. I don't think so, no, unless some of the other documents we got

7 from the Bosnian federation came from that collection and I mistook them

8 as coming from a different collection. But I don't think I did cite

9 anything from that collection. And I certainly didn't make a special

10 effort to systematically review that collection for the purposes of this

11 report.

12 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, if I may have a moment to confer with

13 Ms. Nozica.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I think I've concluded my portion of the

17 cross-examination, and if this would be a convenient moment, Ms. Nozica

18 will resume for a short time tomorrow morning.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's almost 7.00. I'd

20 like to inform the parties that it is quite possible that next week, on

21 Wednesday, instead of sitting in the morning we will be sitting in the

22 afternoon. I'm waiting for confirmation of this from the Trial Chamber

23 sitting in the afternoon. And they won't be sitting, which means that

24 instead -- I know that you'll prefer working in the morning, but instead

25 of working in the morning on Wednesday, we'll shall be working in the

Page 6232

1 afternoon. There's the Plenary meeting in the morning, and since the

2 Judges attend that, we're going to sit in the afternoon in order to

3 perform our duties and regulate the week. So I wanted to give you prior

4 notice of that, not to surprise you with it, spring a surprise on you at

5 the last moment.

6 Having said that, we have reached 7.00. I wish everybody a

7 pleasant evening, and we'll reconvene tomorrow at 2.15.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of

10 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.