1 Thursday, 5 October 2006
2 [Closed session]
11 Pages 7873-7896 redacted. Closed session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Your
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can raise the blinds now.
11 MR. MUNDIS:
12 Q. Witness BQ, now to your left and perhaps on the screen in front of
13 you, you can see the Bosnian language version of your statement. Is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And reflecting the question that was put to you by the Presiding
17 Judge a few moments ago, can you now see the actual date that you provided
18 this written statement?
19 A. I don't see the date.
20 Q. Perhaps, sir, if you could look on the hard copy that's to your
21 left, or if the ...
22 MR. KARNAVAS: We will not be contesting the date of when the
23 statement was given, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Move on.
25 MR. MUNDIS:
1 Q. Now, Witness BQ, yesterday morning, when you arrived at the
2 Tribunal --
3 A. I see it now.
4 Q. When you arrived at the Tribunal yesterday morning, Witness, you
5 were given a copy of that statement. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, here it is.
7 Q. And did you have an opportunity to read that statement in the
8 Bosnian language?
9 A. Yes. I read it twice.
10 Q. And, Witness BQ, after reading that statement in the Bosnian
11 language, did you have any corrections that you would like to make to that
13 A. I didn't notice any errors that I would wish to correct.
14 Everything is all right.
15 Q. Well, Witness BQ, let me ask you this question: When we reviewed
16 your statement, when you and I reviewed your statement with a language
17 assistant, there was one issue concerning the number of gun-shots that
18 were fired on a particular day and you corrected part of your statement.
19 Do you remember that?
20 A. I remember that because it said "one or more shots," but I assert
21 it was one shot and that three people were killed.
22 MR. MUNDIS: And for the record, Your Honours, that is reflected
23 on the bottom of page 7 in the English statement in the next-to-the-last
24 paragraph. That's the point the witness is referring to.
25 Q. And Witness, correct me here, but it says in the statement: "I
1 don't know if it was one bullet that killed all three or maybe there was
2 more than one bullet." And you corrected that to say there's no doubt in
3 your mind that it's one bullet. Is that correct?
4 A. There was only one bullet and three people were hit. That's 100
5 per cent true and I guarantee it.
6 Q. Okay. Other than that change, Witness BQ, is there anything else
7 that needed to be changed or corrected with respect to your February 2002
8 written witness statement?
9 A. I didn't see any need to change anything or add anything, because
10 I stand by what is in this statement and I wish my statement to remain as
11 it is.
12 Q. I take it from that, sir, that there's nothing you want to add to
13 the statement?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is there anything you want to remove from the statement?
16 A. I didn't see anything I would need to remove. It contains
17 everything I said. I see no need either to remove anything or add
19 Q. And I take it, Witness BQ, that if I were to ask you questions
20 about the subject matters that are reflected in this written witness
21 statement, your answers would reflect the information that's contained in
22 that written witness statement.
23 A. I think it would all be the same.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness BQ. I have a few questions with respect to
25 some of the locations that are mentioned in your written witness
2 Now, sir, in the English version of your statement, on page 5, you
3 describe being taken to the police station in Prozor. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness be shown P9686, which is
6 e-court and is also in the bundle of materials that is on the ELMO next to
7 the witness, whichever would be quicker.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are pictures from Prozor. I
9 can see the police station, one of the restaurants, and some of the
10 houses, and the police station is where the flag is. Here it is. Here it
12 MR. MUNDIS:
13 Q. Okay. Now, can you describe -- I know you've mentioned the flag.
14 Can you describe the police station building in Prozor as you see it in
15 this photograph?
16 A. Well, in the photograph you can see enough to recognise it, but --
17 well, it's quite easy to recognise.
18 Q. And how do you recognise it in this photograph, sir?
19 A. I recognise it by the windows. It's just the way it looks from
20 this angle. I can recognise the side and the front. I recognise it
21 well. I spent quite a long time there. I know every foot of the
22 territory and the buildings and everything.
23 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P9685.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the secondary school in
25 Prozor where we were as prisoners. Yes, that's the school.
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. And again, sir, that's described in your written witness statement
3 as being the location in Prozor where you were detained.
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P 08994.
6 If that perhaps --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, this is a
8 drawing of the secondary school. This is the layout, the disposition of
9 the rooms. That's what it looks like.
10 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask perhaps if the e-court version can be
11 rotated clockwise, if that's possible, 90 degrees clockwise, that would
12 perhaps be helpful.
13 Q. Now, Witness BQ, just so we're absolutely clear, did you draw this
15 A. No, no, it wasn't I who drew it.
16 Q. But you recognise what this sketch depicts.
17 A. Well, because of the corridors and the way the rooms are, how
18 they're located. If it's not identical, then at least it's very, very
20 Q. Now, Witness BQ, in this sketch that you see before, you'll notice
21 that the rooms are numbered. Do you know or can you recognise which room
22 you were detained in in the Prozor secondary school?
23 A. As far as I can tell, in room -- or rather, classroom number 9.
24 Yes, 9.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown P 09718.
2 Q. And while that's coming up, sir, can you tell us, after you were
3 detained in the secondary school, where you were taken?
4 A. I spent a brief time in the secondary school. From there, they
5 put us in buses and took us to Dretelj.
6 MR. MUNDIS: And, again, if that photo now can be rotated
7 counter-clockwise 90 degrees.
8 Q. Witness BQ, do you recognise P 09718, the photograph that's before
10 A. This is Dretelj, and the hangars where I and the other prisoners
12 Q. Okay. Now, when you say, sir, "the hangars where I and the other
13 prisoners were," can you tell us from this photograph what you're
14 referring to as the hangars? Perhaps describe the hangars.
15 A. Well, I don't know what words to use to describe the hangars.
16 They look like some kind of military garage or military depot. It's not a
17 standard building and it's not a building people can live in. To the best
18 of my understanding, these were formerly depots or garages belonging to
19 the former JNA or probably a weapons depot. That's what it must have
20 been, because, as far as I was able to see, there were no conditions for
21 people to live there or spend any amount of time in, and yet people spent
22 several months there. The conditions were very, very bad.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Let's move now, please, to P 09720.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, this is
25 the hangar where I was put when I first arrived in Dretelj.
1 MR. MUNDIS:
2 Q. And, sir, approximately how long were you in this hangar in
3 Dretelj that's depicted in P 09720?
4 A. I couldn't tell you the precise number of days, but it was
5 approximately a month or maybe a few days more.
6 Q. And, Witness BQ, after you were in this hangar for approximately a
7 month, where did you go or where were you taken?
8 A. From there I was taken through a large tunnel 200 or 300 metres
9 away from this hangar, a huge tunnel where we were shut up.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please now see P 09719.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember this. This is the
12 entrance to the tunnel. You can just see the gate.
13 MR. MUNDIS:
14 Q. Now, sir, how many -- how many tunnels were there at Dretelj when
15 you were there?
16 A. As far as I was able to see, there were two. Whether there were
17 more than two, I wouldn't know, but I know about two tunnels.
18 Q. And, sir, the tunnel you were in, is it depicted in this photo,
19 P 09719?
20 A. Well, there should be a road here between those two hangars, and
21 there was one on the left and one on the right. You can see only one
22 tunnel here, and I don't see the road leading to the hangar. But still
23 I'm sure this is it.
24 Q. Okay. Sir, you told us a hangar on the left and a hangar on the
25 right. Which of those two hangars were you in?
1 A. The left one.
2 Q. Can we --
3 A. The one on the left, I think. Yes, the one on the left.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Can we please now see P 09721?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is the same tunnel.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Can you tell us what that photograph depicts, P 09721?
8 A. This is the tunnel where we spent a certain amount of time, I and
9 the other prisoners.
10 Q. Approximately how long were you in this tunnel, Witness BQ?
11 A. In the first hangar and in the second hangar, I spent 58 days
12 there. I was down there for a month or so, and then up there I was some
13 18 to 20 days.
14 Q. Witness BQ, approximately how many people were with you in this
15 tunnel on the left-hand side in Dretelj during the time-period you were
17 A. Well, I couldn't count them, I didn't have an opportunity of
18 counting, but I think there were between 5 and 600 at least, and there may
19 have been more.
20 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the other people who were with
21 you in this tunnel?
22 A. I could remember a lot of names, although quite a lot of time has
23 elapsed. And my memory has been quite poor since I was in this camp.
24 I've had medical treatment. I might be able to remember a few names now,
25 but I couldn't remember very many. I don't know whether you need me to
1 mention names. I could mention a few, but not many, I'm afraid.
2 Q. Witness BQ, if you could mention the few names that you remember
3 who were with you in this tunnel on the left at Dretelj, that might be
5 A. Well, I could remember many names. I would need time to think.
6 It was mostly us from Prozor. In the first hangar, for a long time, there
7 were just us from Prozor and then later on it became mixed up. There were
8 people there from Herzegovina and even from Central Bosnia in the other
9 place. I can only tell you the names of people from Prozor, not the
11 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask the witness be shown P 03104 --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness move a
13 little closer to the microphones, please.
14 MR. MUNDIS:
15 Q. Witness BQ, the interpreters are asking if you could move a little
16 bit closer to the microphone, so if you could perhaps.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Now I would ask if we could please go to the page
18 that says "page 4" at the bottom.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, on this document we
20 see the list. Could you tell us where this document comes from.
21 MR. MUNDIS: This document is missing apparently the first page
22 and/or any cover page that comes with it. This document has a stamp of
23 the Croatian state archives on the top. This is how we received the
24 document. We do not have the pages that precede this part of the list, as
25 we see here.
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But, Mr. Mundis, what do you pretend that it is?
2 Because it has no title whatsoever. It's just a list of names.
3 MR. MUNDIS: It's a list of names, Your Honours. I was going to
4 ask the witness a question or two about the list, given that the name of
5 the witness appears on the list.
6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
7 MR. MUNDIS:
8 Q. Sir, if you could, please --
9 MR. MUNDIS: If we could look at the page, again on the bottom,
10 bearing "page 4".
11 Q. Sir, do you see between numbers 190 and 191 a heading on that
13 A. On the left is the tunnel.
14 Q. What does that heading say?
15 A. As I understand it, this title and this list of people is when we
16 were released - what was the date? - when they selected a group of us for
17 release to our territory. And I think the names you have here, it's that
18 list of people who were released from Dretelj together with me. They
19 never made a list of our names except then.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you are going to ask him if
21 he recognises his name, you will have to move into closed session;
22 otherwise, one could identify his name.
23 Can we move into closed session, please.
24 [Closed session]
11 Page 7907 redacted. Closed session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Your
24 MR. MUNDIS: With the Trial Chamber's indulgence, I do have just a
25 couple more questions and about four very quick photos to show the
1 witness. I think we could probably finish before the break, but I am
2 cognizant of the time. I anticipate we need about four to five more
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Finish with this and
5 let's move on.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. At the point I interrupted you, sir, you told us you went to Donja
8 Dreznica. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened when you were
9 at Donja Dreznica.
10 A. In Donja Dreznica we were met by an army. I didn't know who it
11 was at the time, but it was the SFOR. There was also the International
12 Red Cross and some Bosniak troops and people, civilians. We felt freer
13 there. We didn't feel completely free, but we felt better at least. Our
14 morale was higher than it had been before.
15 Q. Witness, do you know if there were any journalists present at the
16 time when you arrived in Donja Dreznica at the end of August 1993, with
17 the other people from Dretelj?
18 A. Believe me, I was so exhausted and so ill that I was unable to
19 notice that. I didn't know what was happening around me. I just lay down
20 on the grass waiting for someone to pick me up and take me to Jablanica
21 where my family was.
22 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask now that the witness be shown some
23 photographs that are part of P 04588. This exhibit consists of a large
24 number of photographs. It might very well be easier to do this on the
25 ELMO. So perhaps the photos that are in the bundle under that exhibit
1 number, if that could be placed on the ELMO.
2 Q. Witness, do you see a photograph in front of you on the screen?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Can you tell us anything about that photograph?
5 A. I can only say that this was taken in Dreznica, I'm absolutely
6 sure, when we were resting and waiting to be transported to wherever we
7 were destined to go. These are people I know by sight, but I'm not sure I
8 could tell you their names correctly. However, I know most of these
9 people by sight. As quite a lot of time as elapsed, it would be hard for
10 me to remember their first and last names now.
11 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please go to the next paragraph.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it would assist us, in
14 order to identify the source, if the Prosecutor could explain the
15 provenance of these photographs, because they appear to be frames from a
16 video and we would, of course, be interested in knowing who made the
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, in light of that objection, I think we
19 better take the recess now. These photographs were taken by a
20 journalist. I can provide all that information after the break.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're right. On the cover
22 page, I can read "Associated Documents," so this is probably a press
24 We shall resume again at ten to 11.00 and have our break now.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honours, I took
4 advantage of the break and pulled up some additional information
5 concerning these photographs. But before I indicate the source of these
6 documents, the Prosecution simply wants to put on the record that we don't
7 believe, in light of the fact that the witness has identified what's
8 contained in the photographs, that all of this is particularly necessary
9 at this point in time. But I will proffer, for the record, that these
10 photographs were taken by an individual named Nermin Malovic, whose name
11 appears on the witness list in this case. We may or may not call this
12 witness, but his name appears on the list. He was an ABiH press officer,
13 that is, he was a photographer assigned to a unit within the Army of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The statement of Mr. Malovic, which is dated 23 and
15 26 November 2004, has been disclosed. He is, of course, available to the
16 Trial Chamber as well, and that witness, in his statement, indicates and
17 describes the situation by which he came to be at this location and took
18 these photographs.
19 But, again, he is on the witness list, but we might not call this
20 person as a witness to testify. And our position clearly is that when
21 we've had a witness describe what is contained or shown in the
22 photographs, that that certainly is sufficient in terms of admissibility
23 of those photographs, notwithstanding any weight that the Trial Chamber
24 may subsequently assign to the photographs.
25 So I put that on the record to assist the Defence and the Trial
1 Chamber, but, again, our position at this point is that it might not
2 absolutely be necessary with respect to the photographs.
3 Now, again, with the assistance of the usher, if we could just
4 return to the photographs that have been -- or the four photographs that I
5 believe are contained in P 04588 --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have not shown all the
7 photographs. We have four. We've seen the first one, but you haven't
8 shown all the photographs. Don't you wish to show them to the witness?
9 MR. MUNDIS: Yes. Perhaps there's a translation error. I'm
10 asking that that be done now. If we can return to the photographs P
12 Q. Sir, before the break, you commented on this photograph. Is there
13 anything else, Witness BQ, that you would like to say about this
14 particular photograph, the first photograph that you see before you?
15 A. Well, I don't know what I could add here. I can only see these
16 people. They are familiar. I know them, but I can't think of anything to
17 say at this moment.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Could we please go to the next photograph in that
19 bundle --
20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I?
21 In the background of this photograph, behind the head of the
22 person crouching, there is a man who has a nose which is bandaged. Can
23 you see that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Do you happen to know what was the story of this
1 man, why the nose was bandaged?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be several things, from the
3 beating on the hills or maybe falls when we were travelling to Dreznica.
4 I, myself, fell several times because it takes a long walk, several
5 kilometres, and I was so exhausted I barely made it to Dreznica. I had
6 fallen several times, so this man could have fallen, too. It could be
7 either from beating or from falling, but it's nothing good, in any case.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm a bit confused now because I thought you had
9 told us that you were transported in trucks with a tarpaulin around it,
10 and now you are telling us that you had to walk.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We walked at Vrda, and then we
12 had to get off the buses and walk to Dreznica. But they drove us from
13 Capljina to Vrda, where the boundary was, the separation line.
14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Would persons who got wounded during
15 the beating be medically attended with bandages, like the one one sees on
16 this picture?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This man could have gotten this
18 bandage in Dreznica, not earlier, because we had nobody on the journey who
19 could attend to anybody or help anybody, at least not that I had seen. He
20 could have only gotten this bandage from the Red Cross in Dreznica. I
21 don't see where else he could have gotten it.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one quick question from
24 me. On the same photo we see before the first gentleman somebody who is
25 on all fours, in white trousers on all fours. Is it because he's
1 exhausted or because he's handicapped? Do you remember anybody who was
2 with you there in that camp who was so exhausted that he had to walk on
3 all fours?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were some of us like
5 that. Not only this man but there were hundreds. I told you, I could
6 barely stand; I could barely get from Vrda to Dreznica. Some were in the
7 same state of exhaustion; some slightly better off. But it was not
8 infrequent that a person could not walk from exhaustion. I didn't see
9 anybody who was really disabled. This is probably from exhaustion. I
10 don't know what else to say on this photograph.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
13 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 I'm sorry. I think the record does not reflect exactly what the witness
15 said. Lines 17 and 19 on the previous page, he said there was nobody on
16 the journey who could help them in terms of medical assistance. Not
17 there; he said on the journey.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same goes for the place where we
19 were in Dretelj. I had never an opportunity to see a doctor or anybody
20 who could help those people who were in Dretelj with me. I never saw a
21 single doctor in that compound. Whether there was anybody at all, I
22 really couldn't say either way. But I didn't see anyone.
23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
24 Q. Witness BQ, perhaps if the usher could now turn to the following
25 page and rotate that photograph, please.
1 Sir, can you tell us anything about the photograph that you see
2 before you now? I think actually you're covering the mirror with the top
4 Witness BQ, can you tell us anything about this photograph, what
5 it shows, who's depicted, where it's taken?
6 A. The photograph was taken in Dreznica. I recognise the terrain; I
7 recognise this location. And from what I see, these are IFOR vehicles,
8 and you can see one of the soldiers who were there. We got refreshments
9 there; we got water, drinks, some food. This was the first time we were
10 able to get some sustenance. You can see a person handing out food and
11 drinks to people who were around.
12 Q. Witness BQ, do you recognise any of the persons in this
14 A. I know the one close up, I know him personally, by sight. But
15 it's such a long time that I don't want to make a mistake with a name.
16 That's why I'm going to avoid names. But I know the man from my
17 experience, and just by this picture, I could now go to his personal
18 address. But I wouldn't like to go into names.
19 Q. Witness BQ, I'd --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the same photo we see one
21 woman getting off the truck, and the soldier is helping her out. She is
22 in a white dress. Do you know if there were any women shipped by the same
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were women from
25 settlements in Herzegovina, in Capljina. She was not alone. There were
1 many women and children on this truck which transported us from Capljina
2 to Vrda, and then went on to Jablanica. There were lots of women and
3 children and elderly men.
4 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, if we could be
5 shown the next photograph.
6 Q. Witness BQ, I would ask you the same questions, if you can tell us
7 anything about this photograph, such as where it was taken, when it was
8 taken, whether you recognise anyone in the photograph.
9 A. I know the place, but on this particular picture, from what I can
10 see, they are mostly civilians. They're not inmates. I think those are
11 people who travelled from Capljina with us, so it could be them on the
12 photograph. Those are women from Capljina. I can see the old women who
13 carried things. You see this bag next to this women. Yes, these must be
14 the women who travelled with us.
15 Q. And, Witness BQ, you say, "I know the place." Can you tell us,
16 what is this place?
17 A. This is the plateau of the hydro-power station in Platovice. We
18 gathered there. We were transported by IFOR vehicles from Donja Dreznica
19 to this plateau, and there we got schedules who would be taken where.
20 Some were to Jablanica; some to Mostar; some to other places. But that's
21 where we got our schedules.
22 MR. MUNDIS: And, finally, if we could be shown the last photo in
23 this bundle.
24 Q. Witness BQ, I'd ask you if you recognise what's depicted in this
1 A. Yes. It's a neighbour of mine from Varvara. You can see that he
2 had been in a camp just like me, since his ribs are protruding this way.
3 I can't recognise anybody else on this photograph. I know only him well.
4 Q. Witness BQ, do you recognise where this photograph was taken?
5 A. I couldn't say where it was taken because I can't see the location
6 very well. I can't see the background very well because I don't see
7 well. I just remember this man and I recognise him, nothing else.
8 Q. Witness BQ, you said on lines 17 and 18, "You can see that he'd
9 been in a camp just like me." Do you know what camp?
10 A. He was with me certainly in the first camp, in the first hangar.
11 I don't know where he went from there. All of us from Prozor who were
12 bussed to Dretelj were, at first, all together in that hangar for some 20
13 days, after which they started placing their people from Stolac, from
14 Mostar. But in the initial period, only we from Prozor were in this
16 Q. Thank you, Witness BQ.
17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions. We would
18 tender our documents at this point in time, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I just have one question for you
20 before I give the floor to the Defence counsel. In your written
21 statement, you say that when you arrived at Dretelj you had 94 kilos, and
22 later when you left in August you weighed only 32 kilos. I calculated you
23 lost 60 kilos in that time; is that correct? Which means one kilo a day.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as for this 32 kilos, I
25 actually weighed 37 kilos. I don't know where this figure of 32 comes
1 from. But it's true that I weighed 37 kilos. I weighed myself when I got
2 to this relative in Jablanica, and I weighed 37 kilos. And I assert -- I
3 assert with full responsibility that I weighed exactly 37 kilos when I was
4 released from Jablanica. I may have even put on some.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you eat at all during those
6 two months; if so, what kind of food did you get and how often?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we got any food, it was so
8 awful that maybe it better we had none. My teeth used to be so good that
9 I never had to see a dentist, and now you can see that, because of that
10 food, I lost all my teeth; they simply crumbled. The sort of food we got,
11 I would never have given to my dogs, my pigs, or my cattle. I would give
12 no one and nothing that food that we got in Dretelj.
13 And as for amounts, it was so small. One little loaf of 700 grams
14 was divided into pieces for 17 people. And this soup that we got was just
15 boiled over a fire and then they poured it into those dishes. I don't
16 know what to call those dishes. And it was so hot, you know what -- how
17 hot it can be when it's just off the fire. And we had 10, 20 seconds to
18 eat it. I don't think anybody could have held that dish with food for
19 more than 20 seconds. And, of course, I myself tried to eat as much of
20 that soup as I can. That's why I lost all my teeth; now I don't have a
21 single tooth. That's why I lost that weight. I lost my health, my
22 memory. I lost my entire life in Dretelj. It's just that my soul hasn't
23 yet been separated from my body. I've got nothing else left.
24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, on the same subject, can you tell us on
25 what the assertion when you arrived at Dretelj you weighed 94 kilos is
1 based? Did you also weigh yourself immediately before going there?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know yourself that a
3 person always weighs themselves once a month at least. It could have been
4 maybe not exactly 94; it could have been 96 or 92. But before that I was
5 in Austria for 15 days. I don't know, a difference of 2 kilos more or
6 less. But when I was released I know exactly the number on the scales was
7 37 kilos.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Defence now.
10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I have a couple of questions, in light of the
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:
14 Q. Sir, good morning. You began by telling us that yesterday, when
15 you met with the Prosecutor, you had an opportunity to read your statement
16 twice; correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And at that time, after reading it, you saw that there was one
19 error and you pointed that error out to the Prosecutor; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, of course, the Prosecutor today told us that that was,
22 indeed, the case and then gave you an opportunity today to make any
23 additions or retractions concerning your statement; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And, of course, you indicated you saw no reason to make any
1 corrections, including the one that we just saw right now when you said
2 that you actually weighed 37. You were willing to stand by that
3 particular assertion that you weighed actually 32.
4 A. Maybe we didn't get to deal with every particular point yesterday,
5 but I had to correct it now because I want to say things exactly as they
6 were. There's not much importance to these 5 kilos. But I really want to
7 say what happened exactly to me and --
8 Q. I would agree with you to some extent on that. Incidentally, how
9 much do you weigh today, right now, since I take it you measure yourself
10 once a month, as you indicated?
11 A. 67 kilos now.
12 Q. Okay. And I take it, when you were a younger man, you were much
13 more robust, much heavier.
14 A. Well, I weighed 86 kilos when I was 18. At that time I weighed 86
15 kilos and I was not as weak as I am now. I was --
16 Q. Okay --
17 A. -- really hard-working when I was a young man. I wouldn't have
18 much to say about that.
19 Q. The point I want to get to in your -- is with respect to your
20 testimony today, when you were released from Dretelj. Today you told us
21 that before being released you were -- you and others were beaten. Do you
22 recall that part of your testimony?
23 A. I remember because that was that last moment of our stay in
24 Dretelj, just before they loaded us on to vehicles. Not only just me but
25 all the others. Seven or eight soldiers walked among us and beat whoever
1 they could lay their hands on, everybody.
2 Q. Right. You were rather descriptive in your testimony and that's
3 what caught my attention. Because when I look at your statement, you do
4 mention of other incidents of mistreatment, yet on page 8 in the English
5 version - I don't know what the page is on the B/C/S version - there's
6 absolutely no mention of any beatings prior to being released.
7 A. Well, if you did not find it, I don't think you read my statement,
8 because it's right here in the statement, in the report which is in front
9 of me, and it's accurate. I think you will read there that they kicked
10 us, they beat us with their rifles and the sticks, the handles of shovels,
11 and many other instruments that we were beaten with.
12 Q. Well, perhaps I missed it. But the portion I'm looking at is on
13 page 8, and I'll just read it in English. It says:
14 "I was released from Dretelj on 28th August 1993. On that day,
15 about 5 to 6.000 prisoners were released. They were all elderly, very
16 young or those in the poorest conditions. They put us on trucks and buses
17 to Vrda near Dreznica where the front line was. We walked across the
18 bridge in Dreznica to where our army was waiting."
19 That's the passage that I see with respect to August 28th, the
20 date of your release.
21 Now, as I indicated, sir, while you mentioned previous abuses
22 while you were staying there, there's absolutely nothing in your statement
23 with respect to any abuse upon your release.
24 A. I'm sorry, you missed one word in that statement. Not 5, 6.000,
25 but 500, 600.
1 Q. You're right. You're absolutely correct. Thank you. My eyesight
2 is going bad. Thank you for correcting me. Since you found -- you were
3 able to correct me on that, I take it you were also able to see that there
4 is nothing about beatings or mistreatment prior to being released in the
6 A. I think you either misread it, but it's mentioned in that
7 statement that I gave in Mostar. The beatings are mentioned. I don't
8 know how well you read it, how thoroughly you read it, but there are
9 references to abuse and to beatings.
10 JUDGE PRANDLER: One moment, and I apologise for interrupting you,
11 Mr. Karnavas. If I'm not mistaken, you said that there is nothing about
12 beatings or mistreatment prior to being released.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: On the day of release.
14 JUDGE PRANDLER: On the day, yes. But let me draw your attention,
15 sir, to page 8 of the statement, then around the middle of that, we will
16 see really - one, two, three, four - in the fifth paragraph, five, and it
17 is being read, and I quote:
18 "Personally I was beaten many times. Sometimes I would not be
19 beaten up for a week, and then on other occasions I would get beaten
20 several times a day. There was talk that some people were forced to do
21 sexual acts, but I didn't see it," et cetera.
22 So then here in the first two sentences there are references to
23 beatings, so it is what -- I saw some problems when you mentioned that in
24 your statement. Thank you.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, again -- yeah, Your Honour, it was just a
1 point of precision. I'm not contesting the fact that he wasn't beaten.
2 It's just that that one instance sticks out. Because he's so careful in
3 all other acts of mistreatment - and we're not contesting that - but on
4 this particular occasion of being released, he mentions -- and there's
5 nothing in the statement. It would be page 13 on the B/C/S version. I
6 just point that out for the Court's attention, for whatever it is worth.
7 Q. Just one last question, sir, did you mention --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll clarify that.
9 Witness, you have heard counsel, who rightly says that in your
10 statement this incident wherein you were beaten before getting on the
11 truck is not specifically recounted. My colleague on the Bench tells me
12 that two paragraphs earlier you explained that you were beaten
14 Now, to the best of your recollection - although I understand that
15 it's been a long time, but such things remain etched in one's memory -
16 when you spoke -- when you were interviewed by the investigator of the
17 Tribunal, did you really tell him everything, all about this in detail?
18 And is it him who synthesised all this information, who summarised this in
19 one sentence, "I was beaten many times"? Is that the way it happened with
20 your interview?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, these questions have
22 come up now about the transport from Dretelj to Dreznica, and it's
23 possible that, when I was giving that statement in Mostar, it was not
24 recorded or maybe I didn't tell the investigator specifically what
25 happened on the transport from Dretelj to Dreznica. Maybe different
1 questions were asked then than the questions that were asked now. But I
2 am answering now the questions that are being asked now, and I'm telling
3 the truth. And if there is something suspicious or dubious about my
4 account of the trip from Vrda to Dreznica, you can find a hundred
5 witnesses to corroborate what I'm saying.
6 I am now answering questions directly. Maybe the investigator who
7 took this statement didn't ask me specifically what happened from Capljina
8 to Vrda or from Vrda to Dreznica until you got to your own army. So the
9 things that are being asked today are not necessarily the same that were
10 being asked then.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.
12 Thank you very much, sir.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.
14 Mr. Murphy.
15 MR. MURPHY: Your Honours, no questions.
16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just a short
17 question for clarification.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Just one small point. On
20 page 8 of your statement given to investigators in Mostar for this
21 Tribunal - in English it's on page 5, the third whole paragraph on the
22 page; in the Croat version, it's paragraph 2 on page 8 - I will read to
23 you exactly the sentence that you wrote. It's after those events in the
24 village in October 1992. At the end of that passage you say the
1 "Things went back to normal and I thought everything was going to
2 be all right. I was not scared that something would happen, because on
3 the news they said that the fighting in Prozor had been a mistake that
4 would not be repeated."
5 Do you remember that statement?
6 A. I do. Just a few hours before that statement I had arrived from
7 Austria, and since I was not in town, I was not able to know who exactly
8 is saying what. I just heard from people, from both Muslims and Croats,
9 or Catholics, whatever, that some session was being held in Prozor, that
10 they are not able to agree, the people holding that session. All these
11 were stories circulating in the village and people were seized by panic.
12 Q. Witness, you've already explained that. Just give me a precise
13 answer. You don't have to give me the whole story. On the news -- just
14 now you said it was something you heard from other people, but here in the
15 statement you say "on the news." Do you mean on the radio?
16 A. No, no, I didn't have occasion to listen to the radio. I mean the
17 news that you get from people, from one person to another. I heard that
18 it was a mistake. After the conflict, however, I heard on the news that
19 it was a mistake. But before the conflict, I was not able to hear
20 anything because I don't think the media was reporting anything. Just
21 after the conflict, they said it was a mistake, it was not a major
22 incident, just a conflict among the citizens. And I was seriously
23 injured; I was lying in the house of one neighbour, a Catholic --
24 Q. You said all that in your statement. We don't need to repeat it.
25 A. I can confirm to you now that that's the way it happened. Just
1 ask me directly.
2 Q. We have now discovered where the misunderstanding lies. So after
3 those events in the course of 1992, what you've just mentioned, "they said
4 on the news that fighting in Prozor have been a mistake that would not be
5 repeated," tell me just about that, very simply. When you say "on the
6 news" here, do you mean news on the radio?
7 A. Television.
8 Q. Oh, so it's television. That's what they said on television?
9 A. Yes. It was a statement from the Presidency.
10 Q. Okay. So you heard that on news, on TV news, that the fighting in
11 Prozor had been a mistake that would not be repeated. That's what they
12 reported on TV. Is that correct; yes or no?
13 A. It was on TV, because they made an appeal to the citizens of
14 Prozor to come back to their homes because it would not be repeated. And
15 then people who were able to return returned. And I was unable because I
16 was lying in the house of that Croat neighbour.
17 Q. Very well. After that, as you said in the next passage in your
18 statement, everything was all right until the 4th of July, 1993; correct?
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. That's all.
21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a few short
22 questions for this witness.
23 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day to you. I am Vesna Alaburic,
25 an attorney from Zagreb. And in these proceedings I appear for General
1 Milivoj Petkovic. I will put a few questions to you with reference --
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. The last response
3 given by the witness has not entered the record. In his last reply, after
4 my question, he confirmed that everything was all right until the 4th of
5 July --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: They did not hear the
7 witness's reply.
8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Witness, my last question to you
9 was: As of the 4th of July, 1993, everything was peaceful, as you said in
10 your statement; is that what you said?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you. I apologise for
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you have the
16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, a few questions about the events in your village in
18 October 1992. On page 7 of your statement, which is page 5 in the English
19 text, you said, and I quote: "The fighting did not last long because the
20 Muslims were unable to defend themselves."
21 Could you please now explain what kind of weapons the Muslims had
22 at that point in time and why was it they were not able to defend
24 A. I know for certain that in October 1992 a large number of people
25 from my hamlet, and even from Prozor, were unarmed and not prepared. We
1 were not expecting any kind of conflict between the Bosniaks and the
2 Croats. And I am sure they did not have weapons. They might have had a
3 rifle or an automatic rifle, but there were so few weapons they're not
4 even worth mentioning. If we had been attacked by only 20 soldiers, the
5 Muslims would not have been prepared to defend themselves.
6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did any of the people in your
7 village have weapons?
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask: Could witness's other
9 microphone be switched on.
10 A. I know only one man in my village who had a --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said.
12 A. And there were two hunting rifles.
13 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, could you please repeat your answer to this question
15 because your microphone was not on. My question was: Did you know anyone
16 who had weapons among the people in your village?
17 A. I said in my village I know only one man who had a Kalashnikov,
18 that's an automatic rifle, and there were two hunting rifles. Those were
19 the weapons I knew about in my village before these conflicts and on the
20 day of the conflict.
21 Q. Could you tell me the name of the person who had a Kalashnikov?
22 A. I don't think that's necessary.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I asked you to stop, because if
24 the name would have been mentioned, one could have identified him.
25 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could we move into private
1 session? I believe it might be useful for purposes of clarifying the
2 events in the village if we were to find out who was the person who had
3 the Kalashnikov.
4 Q. Witness, could you please tell us who this person was? And it
5 will be up to Their Honours to --
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 7930-7937 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are now in open session, Your
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, I give the
6 floor to the Prosecution so that it can give us a list of the documents it
7 wishes to tender.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution would
9 tender the following documents and photographs which have been shown to
10 the witness during the course of his testimony: P 09716, under seal; P
11 03104, under seal; P 04588; P 08994; P 09685; P 09686; P 09718; P 09720; P
12 09719; and P 09721.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No objections from the Defence?
14 No objection from the part of the Defence.
15 So the exhibits under these numbers are admitted. P 03104, under
16 seal; P 09716 under seal; P 09718, P 09720; P 09719; and P 09721. I
17 believe one is missing. I read too quickly. P 045808 and 508994 [as
19 The court reporters made a mistake it's P 08994. It's P 08994. I
20 would like the Legal Officer to check that nothing has been missed out.
21 Witness, your testimony has come to an end. I'd like to thank you
22 for having come to testify, as was requested by the Prosecution, about
23 those events that unfolded in your country. On behalf of the Bench, we
24 wish you a safe journey home. Before you leave the courtroom, I shall ask
25 the usher to drop the blinds, please.
1 I would like to add that the registrar has told me, I don't
2 understand why the court reporter has not put in all those numbers. We
3 need to add P 09686 and P 09685.
4 MR. MURPHY: In addition to that, Your Honour, I think there may
5 be one other error. I see at line 9, the number P 045808 I think that
6 should be P 04588, if Mr. Mundis confirms that.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, that's correct.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. So it's Exhibit
9 number P 04588.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we shall move back into open
13 session. You can lift the blinds now since there is no witness in the
15 Mr. Mundis, before we have a break and before the end of this
16 hearing, because we are going to be holding another hearing after this
17 one, as far as next week is concerned.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Everything is as per the
19 court schedule with respect to next week. We have the witness who is
20 returning for cross-examination, followed by four crime base witnesses who
21 will be testifying for the duration of the week next week. There are no
22 changes to the schedule as previously circulated.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. As far as Tuesday's
24 witnesses are concerned, I think you'd planned to lead him for two hours.
25 I think if it's two hours, that's going to be short, if we have the
1 cross-examination on the same day, which means that we will probably have
2 to hear the witness on the Wednesday as well. But maybe it will be
3 shorter than those two hours which you have announced.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Well, Mr. President, I believe I speak for all the
5 Prosecution team when I say we're constantly trying to slim down the
6 amount of time spent on direct examination, to the greatest extent
7 possible. The witness appearing is a crime base victim witness, and I
8 don't believe that we'd have any problems finishing her testimony in one
9 complete day, in light of the fact that the Defence tend to take slightly
10 less time than they're allotted with respect to crime base witnesses, as a
11 general rule, at least based on what's happened thus far in the course of
12 the trial. So I don't anticipate any problems.
13 You'll also note on Thursday of next week we have one 92 ter
14 witness scheduled, so there is a little bit of flexibility, if we run into
15 some problems in the middle part of the week, with respect to finalising
16 the witnesses that we do have scheduled for next week.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Mr. Karnavas.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Just one issue. While I was away, apparently - I
20 was absent from the courtroom - there was some indication from Mr. Mundis
21 himself as to how far along they were in their case. I believe he had
22 indicated something to the effect, about a quarter of the way through. In
23 light of the fact that, as I understand, the registrar has allotted 12
24 months and two weeks for this phase of the case, it would assist the
25 Defence if, at some point, the Prosecution could figure out exactly how
1 far along and when do they predict are they going to be on schedule. I
2 know we're counting hours as opposed to months and weeks, but it would
3 assist us for other purposes. And we're not trying to rush them through
4 their case.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right, right. I think that
6 would be useful to everybody because it's a question that I have already
7 discussed with the Judges.
8 Maybe it's too early, but, Mr. Mundis, do you have an idea?
9 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps if the registrar has convenient the amount of
10 hours that we've spent total to date, that might be of assistance.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I asked for it last time,
12 registrar, I asked for a calculation of hours. Maybe it's between 80 or
13 100 hours used by the Prosecution from the beginning, but I need an exact
14 total, not today but you have all of the weekend.
15 MR. MUNDIS: I can assure the Defence and the Trial Chamber that
16 being allotted 400 hours, I don't believe at this point in time that we're
17 going to be completing our case in 200 hours or 220 hours. I anticipate
18 that -- that we've used, by our count, about 83 hours. That is a little
19 bit less than 25 per cent of the time we've been allotted. Barring any
20 unforeseen circumstances, it would appear that we will be taking the full
21 400 hours that we have been allotted, which we have been planning on and
22 which we have relied upon in terms of structuring our case.
23 That's about all I can say at this point in time. If Your Honours
24 would like a more full explanation, we might be in a position to prepare
25 something that we could do at some point in the near future. But I need
1 to be very clear that we will be taking the full amount of time that the
2 Trial Chamber has allocated to us. We will be taking that figure of 400
3 hours for direct examination and factor that into all of our planning, and
4 we have relied upon that figure for purposes of structuring the
5 Prosecution case.
6 So I don't believe that we'll be in a position to significantly
7 reduce that number, and we're not intending on doing so. But again, if it
8 would be helpful to the Chamber, I'll discuss with my colleagues and we
9 can perhaps have a discussion with a little more preparation in the very
10 near future.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, but everybody should have a
12 document to know where we are going and not to go straight into a wall.
13 We need to have an overall document to see, one, if you are behind your
14 schedule - I don't think you are - if are following a good tempo and to
15 give time to the Defence to prepare themselves. They have a lot of work
16 to do and they have to prepare cross-examination, and they have to also
17 prepare their Defence case. For that it is necessary to have certain
18 parameters that would allow everybody to work well and usefully.
19 If there are no other matters to raise, we are going to adjourn
20 now, and we will continue in ex parte in 30 minutes. So I invite you all
21 to come back here again on Monday, at 2.15.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.05 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of
24 October, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.