Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8750

1 Thursday, 19 October 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- On resuming at 2.16 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.

11 I should like to greet all the people present in the courtroom,

12 the registrar, who is temporarily replacing a former registrar who will be

13 coming back soon, the representative from the Prosecution, Defence

14 counsel, and the accused. We must resume the hearing of the witness

15 today. Let me remind you that according to our calculation, Mr. Praljak's

16 Defence has exactly three minutes left; the Defence of Mr. Coric will have

17 15 minutes; Defence counsel of Mr. Petkovic, 15 minutes; and Defence

18 counsel of Mr. Prlic, 15 minutes.

19 We have to stick to this schedule , and you'll understand why.

20 The Trial Chamber will be more and more stringent as far as time issues

21 are concern. I should like to ask the Prosecution as far as the next

22 witness is concerned, I think you plan to hear this witness for an hour

23 and a half. I think you should not exceed one hour so that the Defence --

24 that Defence teams have an hour and a half for their cross-examination so

25 we can finish at 7.00 today.

Page 8751

1 Mr. Kovacic you have three minutes left.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Would the

3 usher place a document on the ELMO, please, to begin with.

4 Your Honour, you received the document this morning and we put it

5 be on the table now; we weren't able to find it yesterday, or rather, we

6 weren't prepared for the answers we received. Since the witness cannot

7 read, I'm going to tell him that --


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic: [Continued]

11 Q. [Interpretation] -- it is a document, Witness, from the Ante

12 Starcevic Brigade, Gornji Vakuf, the date of it is the 19th of January.

13 It is signed by the assistant IPD commander, Ivan Kraljevic. I'm going to

14 read the sentence that I'm interested in here, and it is the second

15 sentence in the text which reads as follows: "Yesterday, in the village

16 of Hrasnica, around 50 members of the Muslim forces turned themselves over

17 to our forces. Among them, except for the local men, there were soldiers

18 from other areas (Donji Vakuf, Prusac)."

19 You told us yesterday that there were 30 or 40 of them. You

20 said -- gave figures in two statements. Here we see, according to this

21 report, that there were 50 members. But what I want to ask you on the

22 basis of this document is the following: Among the soldiers who gave

23 themselves up in your village, the village of Hrasnica, on the 18th of

24 January, 1993, were there BH army soldiers as well from other areas,

25 specifically from Donji Vakuf and Prusac?

Page 8752

1 A. As far as I remember, there were, but I don't know how many, maybe

2 three or four.

3 Q. So along with you local men from Hrasnica, there were also

4 soldiers from other places; is that right?

5 A. They were refugees, so that's how they joined -- well, they

6 happened to be there. They happened to be there as refugees.

7 Q. All right. Thank you. And I have one more question. You said

8 when you surrendered that a certain Perica Kustura shot at you?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. This man, Perica Kustura, was he a local man?

11 A. He was my next-door neighbour.

12 Q. All right. Fine. Thank you.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've used up my time,

14 and that completes my examination.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kovacic.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

17 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon to you. I am Defence

19 counsel for General Milivoj Petkovic, and I'm going to ask you a few

20 simple and short questions with respect to your statement and testimony,

21 the Bugojno statement in 1994 and your testimony here and to the

22 investigators. In your statement to this Tribunal, which you gave in

23 February 2002, you said the following: That the HVO first of all shelled

24 the barns in your village; is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 8753

1 Q. You also said that those barns had been set fire to as a result of

2 the shelling; is that right?

3 A. Yes. Correct.

4 Q. Does that mean that the barns were set fire to before the HVO

5 soldiers entered your village?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Thank you. You also told us that after that the HVO shelled the

8 houses; is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's right. Correct.

10 Q. Did any one of these houses in your village -- was it set fire to

11 because of the shelling?

12 A. Yes. Three houses were set ablaze.

13 Q. All right. Three houses were set ablaze before the HVO soldiers

14 entered the village at all. Isn't that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just return to the barns. You said they

18 were shelled. Have you any idea by what kind of weapon they were

19 shelled? Were they shot up by artillery from above or by tanks or by

20 anti-tank guns, recoilless?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Incendiary ammunition.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That I understand, but how was the ammunition

23 brought into the barns? Do you know? Maybe you don't, but did they shoot

24 from tanks or from recoilless guns or was it artillery or mortars?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They shot from PAMs, semi-automatic

Page 8754

1 machine-guns, and incendiary ammunition which they used to set the houses

2 ablaze, and the barns were burning too.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So, Witness, when the HVO soldiers entered your village, according

6 to your words and we'll stick with the houses, three houses were set on

7 fire. When you were rallying in front of your houses and the column was

8 formed, was your village of Hrasnica shelled then too?

9 A. Well, no, they didn't shell then because they came into the

10 village and captured us.

11 Q. How long -- right. How long did you stay in the village with the

12 HVO soldiers before you started leaving your village in a column?

13 A. From 15 to 1700 hours.

14 Q. I see. To 1700 hours; that means two hours. Tell us, please,

15 during those two hours did any of the HVO soldiers set fire to any houses

16 or anything else -- did anything else in the village, apart from getting

17 the people to form a column?

18 A. Not -- not then, no.

19 Q. Thank you. Now on the basis of everything we've said so far can

20 we conclude that when the HVO soldiers left the village with you, only

21 three houses were on fire and that because of the shelling; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, for the first time after that you returned to

24 your village, as you yourself said, at the end of February 1993, after a

25 truce was agreed upon, after there was a cease-fire; is that right?

Page 8755

1 A. I returned with my wife to my brother's house, his weekend

2 cottage, whereas my house had been burnt down to the ground.

3 Q. Yes. I didn't mean to go back to live in the village. What I

4 meant was that you came to visit your village the first time at the end of

5 February 1993.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And then you saw that your house had been burnt down and,

8 according to the statement, that the Muslims -- Muslim houses had been

9 razed to the ground?

10 A. Yes, that's quite right. You couldn't live in any of the houses;

11 they had burnt down.

12 Q. Now, since only three houses, and that because of shelling were on

13 fire when you were leaving your village, that means that somebody in the

14 meantime set fire to the other houses in your village; is that right?

15 A. Yes. They set fire to everything they could later on.

16 Q. Right. Thank you. Can you explain to us who Marijan Petricevic

17 from your village is? Who is the gentleman?

18 A. He's a neighbour of mine.

19 Q. And what was he? Was he a civilian? A soldier? What was he?

20 Who was he?

21 A. I don't know. All I know is that he his sons were in the HVO

22 army, but I didn't see him as a soldier.

23 Q. I'm going to read out to you now part of your statement to the

24 security service in Bugojno from March 1994, which was shown to you

25 yesterday by my learned colleague Senka Nozica, and the sentence is a very

Page 8756

1 short one. I'll read it out.

2 "All the looted property went via Marijan Petricevic from

3 Hrasnica, and in the looting families of Croatian ethnicity took part from

4 Kustura, the Bosnjaci, Gazilj, Zuljevici, Brkovici, and Petricevici."

5 Do you remember that statement of yours?

6 A. Yes, I do and it is correct.

7 Q. Can you confirm to us today that the property belonging to the

8 Muslim inhabitants of that village was set fire to by the members of the

9 mentioned Croatian families from that village?

10 A. Yes, that is true and correct.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to your own family, I'd like to seek

12 some clarifications. Yesterday, the Prosecution showed you a document

13 about civilians who had been captured in Hrasnica. On that list, as far

14 as I was able to read, there is no mention of your family members; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes. My family members were not captured.

17 Q. Can you tell us what happened to your family. Where was your

18 family? Where were your family members?

19 A. They had crossed over to Duratbegovic, down there across the

20 bridge where our people were.

21 Q. Can you tell us when they left, when they went there?

22 A. They left when they started capturing us, so they were closer to

23 Vrbas and crossed over the bridge.

24 Q. So towards the end of the period during the attack around the 18th

25 of January you said. So that would be it?

Page 8757

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness, I'd like to clear up some things with respect to your

3 wounding and the medical assistance you received. You said in your

4 statement, and I'm going to quote you, I'm going to quote your exact

5 words: "The HVO refused to give me medical aid, although I almost bled to

6 death."

7 Now, tell us, please, at the moment you were wounded, as you said,

8 in the column, among the HVO soldiers - or perhaps among the Muslim

9 population - was there anybody who might have been a doctor or had any

10 medical training?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When you arrived in the village of Volari, was a doctor there

13 perhaps?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Tell us, the first doctor whose assistance you could have

16 received, was that in the village of Trnovaca?

17 A. Yes, Dr. Skoro.

18 Q. Right. Now, this first doctor that you came across, did he give

19 you medical assistance?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did the HVO soldiers then transfer you to the hospital in Bugojno?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, I have just one more question --

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to follow up on the question.

25 What was the wound you sustained? Where on your body were you

Page 8758

1 wounded?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My left hand. My left arm below the

3 elbow.

4 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, can we just repeat that. It was a Croatian doctor, was

6 it not, who gave you medical assistance in Trnovaca; is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Thank you. And just an additional explanation with respect to the

9 terms you use in the statement. Members of the HVO you refer to as

10 Ustashas.

11 A. They called themselves Ustashas.

12 Q. Tell us, who did you hear calling themselves Ustasha?

13 A. I heard -- well, they'd always call out and say, "We are

14 Ustashas." That's what they would say. And they would say, "Balija,

15 we're going to do such and such to you. There won't be any Muslims any

16 more," and so on.

17 Q. In the statement to the Prosecution, why didn't you refer to the

18 HVO soldiers as "Ustashas" but you referred to them as "HVO"?

19 A. Well, they referred to themselves as Ustashas and they were proud

20 of it. As far as I was concerned, they were the HVO army, HVO soldiers.

21 Now, they called themselves Ustashas.

22 Q. All right. Now, what does it mean in your mind when you call

23 someone a Ustasha?

24 A. Well, I really can't answer that.

25 Q. Tell me, do you know at least somebody who would be -- who was in

Page 8759

1 the HVO whose parents or grandparents were in the Partisans; did you know

2 a single person like that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Well, how many people did you know who were in the HVO at all?

5 A. Well, I couldn't really say. I knew some, some of my neighbours

6 there. I couldn't say as to the rest.

7 Q. Witness, tell us, please, did you ever hear of HOS?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did you hear about them?

10 A. Well, I couldn't really answer that, but I did hear that it

11 existed.

12 Q. Well, did you hear or see that there was any difference between

13 the HOS and the HVO?

14 A. No.

15 Q. You never heard anything like that?

16 A. Well, I didn't. I don't know.

17 Q. So you don't know of any difference between the HOS and the HVO?

18 A. No.

19 Q. When you say "Ustasha" for the HVO members, do you want to say

20 something complimentary about them or something bad about them? What do

21 you mean to say when you use that term?

22 A. The HVO, as far as I'm concerned, were the regular army, whereas

23 the Ustashas - which is what they themselves called themselves - but as

24 far as I was concerned they were paramilitaries that referred to each

25 other as Ustashas; that's my opinion.

Page 8760

1 Q. Well, might that have been the HOS? Because the HVO considered

2 the HOS to be paramilitaries, and according to their insignia and other

3 signs they were close to what we call Ustashas. Can you remember that?

4 A. No, I can't.

5 Q. You can't remember?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You can't remember any difference between them?

8 A. I don't know about that, no.

9 Q. All right. Fine. Now, apart from that, apart from what people

10 called themselves, how come you called members of the Croatian army in

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina Ustashas?

12 A. Well, I said the HVO was the regular army, the regular soldiers,

13 as far as I was concerned. Now, those who said about themselves that they

14 were Ustashas, how I would know? It's up to them.

15 Q. That's what I'm asking you. Say when you say "Ustashas," you're

16 not thinking of the regular HVO army, are you?

17 A. No, I never did think that that was the case.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

19 questions.

20 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for

21 this witness. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Next.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: No questions, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have a few

Page 8761

1 minutes left, if the Prosecution would like to take the floor if it has

2 any questions for re-examination.

3 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, no, I have no further questions for

4 this witness. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, your testimony has just

6 come to an end. On behalf of the Bench, I would like to say that we

7 appreciate your coming here to establish the truth. I wish you a safe

8 journey home, and I will ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom;

9 but before that I'd like the blinds to be dropped, please.

10 In a few moments we shall have a break so that we can bring in the

11 next witness. From what I understood, Mr. Mundis, the next witness

12 requires protective measures. Could you please give us the reasons for

13 this.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Actually, my colleague,

15 Mr. Bos, who is sitting in the back row at the moment, will be dealing

16 with the witness. Perhaps I yield to him.

17 MR. BOS: Thank you. Are we in closed session at the moment,

18 Your Honour?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session,

20 please.

21 [Closed session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8762











11 Pages 8762-8825 redacted. Closed session.















Page 8826

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're currently in open session,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, are Defence

18 counsel able to tender all the exhibits related to Witness Williams?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. There are three

20 documents. One document was 1D 00943, and I'm told that that document had

21 an error and it was re-translated, scanned, and put into e-court, and

22 given another number 1D 00946. I don't know the technical nature of all

23 these things, so I assume that they're going to be together.

24 Then there would be -- I'm sorry. That was -- let me start all

25 over again.

Page 8827

1 1D 00943. Then 1D 00944 is actually now 1D 00946; that's the one

2 that had the error. Then there is 1D 00945, and that's it.

3 I've confused everybody, or maybe I've unconfused everybody. But

4 anyway, 94 -- what was 944 is now 946. It's the corrected version.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 Mr. Murphy.

7 MR. MURPHY: The Defence of Mr. Stojic would like to move three

8 documents into evidence that were put to the witness Mr. Williams. These

9 are actually -- have been disclosed as Prosecution exhibits, but

10 nonetheless we would like to make sure that they are admitted. The

11 numbers are: P 01210, P 01632, and P 00768. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

14 of General Praljak, along with Witness Andrew Williams, would like to

15 tender the following exhibits: 3D 00461, that's the letter of

16 Bryan Watters, and it was previously in the Kordic-Cerkez trial. 3D 00462

17 is the next document; it's just page 205 from Bob Stewart's book entitled

18 "Broken Lives." Then we have a Prosecution exhibit P 001215, but the

19 document was tendered previously as an exhibit. It is the ECMM report of

20 the 19th of January, 1993, and this is under seal. Then we have 3D 00456;

21 that is the Google map of Gornji Vakuf, and it had an IC 52 number, IC 52

22 first. The witness made additional markings on that map. P 09601 is the

23 next document; they are excerpts, several paragraphs, from Christopher

24 Beese's diary. Then we have 3D 00455; that is the calculation for the

25 artillery projectile norms, how many projectiles were used. 3D 00460 is

Page 8828

1 the next one; that was a review of the structures, the ethnic structure of

2 HVO members. And then two photographs which had the numbers IC 53, that's

3 the photograph showing Bistrica; and IC 54, the photograph showing the

4 house in Gornji Vakuf.

5 My co-counsel is making signs to me to say the map that the

6 witness had should also be tendered, but can I check the numbers? I think

7 that map received one of these numbers, but I have to check that and tell

8 you. I'll do that on Wednesday, the first next working day. Thank you.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of

10 General Petkovic has eight exhibits to tender. We have made a list with

11 the explanations, so I suggest that I just hand in the list to the

12 registrar and not read it out. But if you like, I can read the numbers.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but --

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Shall I read it for the record

15 then?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The number of the exhibits

17 need to be on the transcript.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence of

19 General Petkovic has eight exhibits to tender into evidence. The first of

20 which is P 01059, then P 01115, P 01174 -- may I repeat the number there

21 is an extra 1. It is P 011 -- yes, that's fine it's been corrected. The

22 next one is P 01211, P 01238, P 01239 -- or 293. P 01293, P 01344, and

23 4D 00340. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The paper which you explain all

25 of this, I think the easiest would be to give it an IC number; then that

Page 8829

1 will tally with the number. Yes, give an IC number to this document for

2 the sake of the record. General Petkovic's counsel is handing over a

3 document explaining why she wishes to tender into evidence those exhibits.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be exhibit IC 61, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the large map that we

7 presented next -- Witness Williams, I have compared them and find where

8 the mistake was. The map was accorded number 3D 00464.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] We're going to give the legend

11 that's being dealt with, and we will hand that in as an addition next

12 week.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Was this a map where

14 the positions of the ABiH and the HVO were marked, where the map of the

15 Trial Chamber -- I had put it behind me. I don't know what's happened to

16 it. Has it disappeared? So we shall leave it behind. I wanted to show

17 it to the witness, and I was looking for it desperately.

18 Next counsel.

19 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 The Defence of Mr. Valentin Coric would like to tender the following

21 documents into evidence: IC 55. And then two documents, just parts of

22 documents because they are lengthy reports: P 03090 is one document, the

23 pages in the Croatian version 22 and 23. "The Quartermaster Service" is

24 the title. And then pages 5 and 6, the last paragraph on page 5 and first

25 paragraph on page 6, and it says: "Operative zone of North-western

Page 8830

1 Herzegovina" as a heading. And then P 00956 is the next document, page

2 16, and it's under the heading of "Logistics." The pages I mentioned were

3 e-court pages, so it's easier to find the English version. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

5 will hand down a decision concerning all these exhibits.

6 Mr. Bos.

7 MR. BOS: Your Honour, the Prosecution hasn't tendered the

8 Williams exhibits, not yet, so we will have to tender those exhibits right

9 now as well.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Do you have the list? In

11 that case go ahead.

12 MR. BOS: First of all, there were two maps that were marked by

13 the witness, so the first map is map number 2 of Exhibit P 09726, and this

14 will be I suppose IC -- Court Exhibit Number 62. And then there's map 24

15 of Exhibit P 09726, which will then become Court Exhibit 63. And then we

16 have the following Prosecution exhibits that we need -- that we would like

17 to tender: P 00759, P 00778, P 00922, P 01053. And then we have P 01068,

18 which was shown to the witness but already admitted through another

19 witness. P 01087, P 01094, P 01104, P 01107, P 01153, P 01162, P 01163, P

20 01182, P 01184, P 01207, P 01209, P 01235, P 01250, P 01278, P 01292. And

21 then two exhibits that have been admitted but shown to the witness: P

22 01351 and P 01373. Next exhibit: P 01406, P 01437, P 01635, P 01663, P

23 01698, and then we get to Exhibit P 03090, which was the exhibit which was

24 also been tendered by counsel for Mr. Coric, and she's been referring to

25 the particular pages that she would like to have admitted. The

Page 8831

1 Prosecution would like to admit the full document, Your Honours, and this

2 is a military police -- a military police report covering the period

3 January till July 1993, and the whole document is relevant for the

4 Prosecution.

5 Next exhibit: P 08572. And finally and document that was already

6 admitted: P 09276. Okay. And I've just been told that I -- as far as

7 the Court exhibits is concerned, I said that it was map 2 of Exhibit 9726,

8 but that needs to be Exhibit 9276 and that's also for Court Exhibit

9 Number 63.

10 That's it.

11 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, just so far as the last exhibit or one

12 of the last exhibits is concerned, the military police report,

13 Your Honour, we should point out that not -- by no means all of that

14 document was covered by the witness Mr. Williams or put to him, so we

15 would like the Trial Chamber to consider admitting only those parts which

16 were put to the witness, either by the Prosecution or the Defence. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall render a

19 decision on this. Just two very brief comments.

20 When a lot of documents are introduced through a witness, it takes

21 a lot of time to read out all the numbers. We could adopt another

22 procedure. The Trial Chamber is forever looking into ways of gaining

23 time. We will soon take some necessary steps.

24 One of the solutions, as we have just seen with Ms. Alaburic, on a

25 document you could specify all the exhibit numbers, the reasons for which

Page 8832

1 you would like these exhibits to be tendered because they are relevant,

2 and then we would allocate an IC number to this document, and we can then

3 render our decision, whether orally or in a written form more easily.

4 Does the Defence -- Defence counsel could do the same thing. We

5 would gain a lot of time this way.

6 Second comment I'd like to make, this has to do with a problem

7 that arose a number of times. When some witnesses come and they're being

8 examined by the Prosecution on the basis of the written statement, you

9 discover afterwards that Defence counsel come up with a witness

10 testimonies from an investigating judge, from administrative commissions,

11 from the MUP, and the Prosecution knows about the existence of these

12 documents. So to avoid wasting any time it would be desirable -- let me

13 take, for instance, the testimony of today's witness.

14 He was heard in 1994 on two occasions by the police: In 1997 by

15 the investigating judge; in 2002 by the investigator of the OTP,

16 and there can be discrepancies in the facts. Obviously from one year to

17 the next things can change, so it would be desirable for the Prosecution

18 when it puts its questions it -- if it knows of the existence of these

19 previous testimonies and it realises that there are discrepancies, during

20 the examination-in-chief you must say to the witness, Before the

21 investigator you said such and such, but there is another document I would

22 like to show you which is something you stated before an investigating

23 judge. There is this document. So what is your real position? And in

24 that way, we can save some time.

25 If you don't do that, Defence counsel turn -- then turn to the

Page 8833

1 witness and say, You said this and that. Instead, Defence counsel could

2 spend their time putting other questions which are just as important to

3 the witness.

4 So I would like the Prosecution to bear this in mind, because

5 you -- all the documents are documents which you have. It is important to

6 check this out beforehand. When the investigator of the OTP has heard the

7 witnesses, perhaps he did not know of the existence of the other

8 documents. So when you are leading the evidence, you have to put all this

9 into perspective. So this is a way of gaining some time, and I would like

10 you to spend some time thinking about this. This is food for thought. On

11 several occasions the problem has arisen.

12 Now, as far as next week is concerned, Mr. Mundis, as far as of

13 Wednesday onwards at 9.00, which witness do you intend to call to testify?

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it will be pursuant to the calendar

15 that's previously been distributed. We have four witnesses scheduled for

16 the three days of next week. I believe two of those are 92 ter witnesses

17 and two of those are viva voce witnesses, but it is according to the

18 calendar that has previously been circulated to the parties.

19 I also -- perhaps in light of the -- of the time and the fact that

20 we do have four witnesses in three days next week, we would be prepared at

21 this point in time to tender the documents that were shown last week to

22 the witness BU, if that would be helpful; otherwise, I believe the Chamber

23 had given the parties until next week to do so. But if now is a

24 convenient time, we would tender the exhibits for Witness BU, those being

25 the following: P 09713, P 01839, P 01955, P 01966, P 01976, P 08289,

Page 8834

1 P 09696, P 08477, P 08613, P 08615. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as Witness BU is

3 concerned, Defence counsel. Are you perhaps taken by surprise?

4 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to recognise that

5 I have been taken by surprise, but I think that we have one exhibit. If

6 you just give us a little time to find it; if not, we'll do it straight

7 away on Wednesday. We did make a note of it. We did have an exhibit, but

8 I don't know its number at this point. Thank you.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we were taken by

10 surprise as well. I thought we'd done it, but I have to check it out.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. So as far as

13 Witness BU is concerned, we shall deal with that next week and find some

14 time when you can tell us what the numbers of the documents are. So it

15 must be remembered that as far as the Defence is concerned, this has not

16 been done.

17 Any other comments? The Prosecution? No issue you'd like to

18 raise?

19 What about Defence counsel? Nothing to add.

20 The Court stands adjourned, and we shall meet again next Wednesday

21 at 9.00. We shall -- we shall have our hearing on Wednesday, Thursday,

22 and Friday, which is unusual.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.25 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day

25 of October, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.