Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10511

 1                          Wednesday, 22 November 2006

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

 6    the case number, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President.  Case

 8    number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10            I'd like to greet everyone in the courtroom, the Prosecution, the

11    Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else.  We'll resume with our

12    hearings.

13            Before we call our next witness into the courtroom, I'll give the

14    floor to the registrar so that he can give us IC numbers for the documents

15    presented by the parties.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  The parties have provided the Registry and

17    Chambers with lists of documents to be tendered through Witness CC.

18    Documents from 1D will be given Exhibit IC 104; list of documents from 2D

19    will be given Exhibit IC 105; list of documents through team 5D will be

20    Exhibit IC 106; and list of documents given through 6D will be given IC

21    107.

22            The Prosecutor -- the OTP has also provided the Registry with a

23    memorandum concerning Exhibits P 01915 and P 02546, tendered through

24    Witness Nihad Kovac.  That will be given Exhibit IC 108.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 10512

 1            The Chamber rendered an oral decision concerning the Praljak

 2    Defence's motion for the admission into evidence of documents shown when

 3    Edward Vulliamy was testifying.  At the hearing of the 9th of May, 2006,

 4    the Chamber asked the registrar to mark for identification certain

 5    documents.  Although they had been shown to the witness Ed Vulliamy, no

 6    translations existed.  The Praljak Defence, on the 20th of November, 2006,

 7    informed the Chamber that the official translation of the four documents

 8    were available, and they presented a list with IC number 00100 and

 9    requested that these documents be admitted into evidence as a result.

10            The Trial Chamber hereby decides to admit into evidence the

11    following documents.  I'll quote them:  3D 00122, 3D 00124, 3D 00136 --

12            THE INTERPRETER:  137.  Interpreter's correction.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- and 3D 00 --

14            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the number.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is an error, line 9.  It's

16    not 3D -- it's not 3D 00136, it's 3D 00137.  And 3D 00141.  122, 124, 137,

17    and 141, to summarise.

18            I'll now ask the registrar to move into private session.

19                          [Private session]

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10513











11    Pages 10513-10522 redacted. Private session















Page 10523

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13                          [Open session]

14            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in public session.

15            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16       Q.   Witness, turning to Aladinici, up until 1993, is it correct that

17    there were -- that it was a mixed community of both Croat and Muslim

18    people, families?

19       A.   Correct.

20       Q.   If I may just mention, we are now in open session, so do not

21    mention any names of people at this stage.

22            How many Muslim houses were there and how many Croat houses?

23       A.   Well, I can tell you, as we say in the Mahala where we stayed,

24    there were 12 Muslim houses and next to us 12 Croat houses.  That's what

25    we call a Mahala.  And further below there are other communities, two or

Page 10524

 1    three or four further away.

 2       Q.   The people in your Mahala, the Bosniaks and the Croats, did they

 3    live in harmony together, up until -- before 1993?

 4       A.   Yes, we did, really, like brothers and sisters.  And we were also

 5    related through marriage.

 6       Q.   On this, is it correct that you even acted as a witness for a

 7    Catholic neighbour's daughter at one stage?

 8       A.   I don't understand that.  Can you repeat, please.

 9            MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, in the

10    language that the witness understands, the word is "kuma" for witness at

11    the wedding.

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true.  My kuma also had

13    a daughter, and that's how we --

14            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] If I may point out a confusion in

15    the transcript.  Page 13, the witness originally said that they were

16    brothers and sisters almost, and they were kums and kumas to each other,

17    whereas the English reads "also related through marriage," which she

18    didn't actually say.  They were witnesses at each other's weddings.  They

19    did not really inter-marry.  That's not what she said.

20            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, I have heard it differently.  I have

21    heard in the translation that they also married amongst each other and the

22    best thing is to clarify.

23            Madam, were there, in the area where you lived, marriages between,

24    one partner, Catholic and, the other partner, Muslim?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not before the war and not after

Page 10525

 1    the war.

 2            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.  So that's clarified.  Thank

 3    you also, Mr. Kovacic.

 4            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you to both my

 5    colleagues for their assistance.

 6       Q.   Witness, in 1992, the area where you stayed was occupied by the

 7    Serbs; is that correct?

 8       A.   Correct.

 9       Q.   The Croat inhabitants of that area fled but the Bosniaks remained;

10    is that also correct?

11       A.   Correct.

12       Q.   When the Croat inhabitants returned to that area later during

13    1992, was the former harmonious relationship -- or did it continue?  Did

14    it still exist?

15       A.   No.  It changed completely.

16       Q.   Can you briefly tell the Court why or what was the cause.

17       A.   What do I know?  We met them nicely when they came.  I don't know

18    what happened.

19            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would object to this

20    question.  I think the witness, in view of her formal education - we see

21    that she doesn't even know exactly when she was born, and she cannot speak

22    articulately - I doubt the value of her sociological observations.  I

23    don't think she's qualified.  This question seeks the opinion of the

24    witness about the causes of what transpired.  The witness is here to speak

25    about facts.

Page 10526

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Prosecution, you

 2    should take this objection into account.

 3            But, madam, I have one clarification to ask you of you.  You said

 4    a moment ago, when the Serbs occupied the area, the Croats left, and I

 5    thought you said that the Muslims had stayed.  At your level, do you have

 6    any explanation?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We went, all of us together, in cars

 8    to Capljina, to the military check-point of the Serb army, but they did

 9    not let us through so we had to turn back.  We wanted to go to Capljina

10    via the Neretva River, but we could not.  We were not allowed to, so we

11    turned back home.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you returned home, but the

13    Croats were allowed to go, to pass through.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16            Mr. Kruger.

17            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I take on --

18            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecution, please.

19            MR. KRUGER:  My apology.  Your Honour, I have heard what the --

20    what you have just mentioned as a result of the comment of my colleague.

21    I do wish to ensure the Chamber that the witness, even though she has

22    difficulty reading and writing, she is very articulate and very -- will

23    also display good observation powers, Your Honours.

24       Q.   Witness, I do want to ask one more question regarding when the

25    Croats returned.  Did any of your Croat neighbours indicate to you or let

Page 10527

 1    you know why they were acting differently when they returned?

 2       A.   When they came back, they didn't want to talk to us.  We had saved

 3    all their things and everything they had left behind, all the livestock.

 4    Not a single house was damaged.  However, they didn't want to speak to us.

 5       Q.   Now, if we can move on -- oh, one more question.  Is it correct

 6    that there was a mosque as well as a Catholic church in Aladinici, in your

 7    settlement?

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, I thought you might

 9    ask a follow-up question because what she's saying is important.

10            You said that the Croats, when the came back, didn't want to speak

11    to you, although you had taken care of their houses and livestock.  Do you

12    know, can you think of any reason, why suddenly the people with whom you

13    had been on good terms come back - and you had nothing to do with what had

14    happened because it was the Serbs' doing - and suddenly they don't want to

15    talk to you?  Can you think of any reason?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what to tell

17    you.  We really saved their property, their households, and we invited

18    them to come and take the things that we had managed to save for them, and

19    they didn't want to.  And we saved what we could.  And the same situation

20    persists today.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you cannot answer my

22    question.

23            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24       Q.   Witness, turning now to July, 1993, your sons who were in the HVO

25    military, did they wear uniforms?

Page 10528

 1       A.   They left in civilian clothes.  They did not have uniforms and

 2    they did not have weapons when they went to the line.  And then the

 3    neighbours started saying, "Are you coming with us?  In that case, we'll

 4    give you the clothing and the weapons," and they did give some.  So

 5    several people did go.  I don't know.  You could see immediately that

 6    there's not much eagerness.

 7       Q.   May I interrupt you there.  Your sons, did you ever see any of

 8    your sons in a uniform during 1993?

 9       A.   My youngest son was in the HVO for a year and he had a uniform and

10    a weapon; and another son also, an elder son.  My middle son did not spend

11    a long time there.  He was in Sarajevo and then he moved to Bugojno.  He

12    stayed up there in the army.

13       Q.   Thank you.  Now, Witness, at the beginning of July, 1993, I want

14    to ask you about the day when the men in your Mahala were arrested.  Could

15    you tell us what happened that morning very early?

16       A.   Can I take a sip of water?

17       Q.   Yes.

18       A.   Well, I can tell you about our Mahala.  That's what we call it.

19    Young people were in hiding, some of them; some were not.  And that

20    morning when we got up, we saw cars and some troops, and --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter would kindly ask the witness to

22    repeat who came and said what.  We did not understand, sorry.

23            MR. KRUGER:

24       Q.   Witness, sorry, the interpreter has asked that you just repeat

25    what you just said, please.

Page 10529

 1       A.   That morning, my son was supposed to come from the line; however,

 2    there was no sign of him.  And my husband went to ask some people if their

 3    son had come, and at that moment a truck came before the house and they

 4    asked, "Is this the house of (redacted)?"  We answered, "Yes."  "Where

 5    is he?"  "He's coming," they said.

 6       Q.   Who was in the truck?  Who are "they" that you refer to?

 7       A.   Three HVO soldiers and the driver.  I think the driver was in

 8    civilian clothes.  And my man came out to see what was going on.  One of

 9    the soldiers took out a piece of paper and started asking about people.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, prepare a

11    redaction on page 18 of the name (redacted).

12            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13       Q.   Witness, while we are in the open session, please don't mention

14    the names of people.  If we need to mention the names, we'll ask to go

15    into private session.  Yes, so please continue.

16       A.   So they rounded up younger people, my husband, and some relatives,

17    five of them, I think.  And my husband was saying, "Where are we going?"

18    They didn't answer that.  They said, "Just get in."  And one of them

19    specifically said, "Get in and don't talk."  They sort of pushed them in

20    and they took them away.  We don't know where.

21       Q.   Now, Witness, you said that HVO soldiers were there with this

22    driver who was perhaps in civilian clothes.  How did you know that these

23    soldiers were HVO soldiers?

24       A.   Well, they had badges.  We know them.  I know them very well.  My

25    son had an HVO uniform.  How wouldn't I know it?  Both of them had it.

Page 10530

 1       Q.   Did you find out where your -- where these menfolk were taken

 2    later?

 3       A.   We knew one day later, because one elderly man came back and said

 4    they had been taken to Gabela.  That man was really old.

 5       Q.   Is that the reason why they didn't take him?

 6       A.   Because he was 70 years old.  That's what they told him.

 7       Q.   All these men who were taken that day from the Mahala, from what

 8    ethnic grouping were they?

 9       A.   Muslims.

10       Q.   Do you know whether on this day only men from your Mahala were

11    taken, or were men from other areas also taken?

12       A.   Over two days, from all areas.

13       Q.   From all areas were men taken?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Now, Witness, after all these men had been taken, who remained in

16    your village and in the other villages in the area?

17       A.   We stayed for maybe seven more days, women and children.

18       Q.   Witness, I want to put -- ask you about a document.

19            MR. KRUGER:  With the help of the registry, if we could put up on

20    the screen Exhibit 03019.

21       Q.   While we're waiting, Witness, this document that I want to just

22    ask you about, regarding one paragraph, is a document written by a

23    military commander, or issued by Milivoj Petkovic on the 30th of June,

24    1993, and it was directed at the operational zones, South-Eastern

25    Herzegovina.

Page 10531

 1       A.   I don't know anything about that.

 2            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you.  There it is.  If we can scroll down to

 3    paragraph 8.

 4       Q.   Witness, I just want to read you an extract from this document,

 5    and just listen carefully.

 6            "In units where you still have Muslim soldiers, disarm and isolate

 7    them.  Isolate all able-bodied men in Muslim-inhabited villages in your

 8    area of responsibility, and leave women and children in their houses or

 9    apartments."

10            My question to you is, very simply:  Does this describe what

11    happened in your Mahala?

12       A.   It happened this way.  Another week later, we set out on foot to

13    Capljina.  We women, I mean.

14       Q.   How many women --

15       A.   If we could find out anything.  We women from three villages -

16    Bivolje Brdo, Aladinici, Crnici - so we went on foot.

17       Q.   And is it correct that you wanted to find out information about

18    your menfolk who had been taken away?

19       A.   I don't know what happened.  We just set out to see where they

20    are.

21       Q.   Is it correct that you walked all the way to Capljina from

22    Aladinici that day?

23       A.   Correct.

24       Q.   How long did it take to walk that distance?

25       A.   Well, we maybe set out around 9.00 from the place where the bus

Page 10532

 1    usually stopped.  However, the buses didn't run anymore.  And we got to

 2    Capljina around 12.00.  We did not have watches or anything.  We couldn't

 3    see the time.

 4       Q.   Witness, how many women were you who decided to walk to Capljina

 5    that day?

 6       A.   Well, it's difficult to say, since we didn't all set off

 7    together.  There were about four of us who went to Aladinici; there were

 8    four, five, or six from Crnici, so about ten of us.  The younger ones were

 9    faster, the elderly a little slower.  That's how it was.

10       Q.   Now, Witness, eventually you arrived at the gate of Dretelj; is

11    that correct?

12       A.   Correct.

13       Q.   You and how many others at that stage?

14       A.   Well, the first group left.  When we set off for Dretelj, they

15    sent them back.  They returned.  Those were the women from Bivolje Brdo.

16    And the other women, we were sitting there until 1.00.  Whoever returned,

17    they'd say, "Well, you can't go there.  You're not allowed to."  We stayed

18    with a relative until 1.00.  There were three of us.  That was after

19    Dretelj.  That's where we arrived.  And someone told us, "Don't go there."

20    They wouldn't allow me to.  We remained standing there.  We then called a

21    neighbour, (redacted).

22       Q.   Now, up until this point --

23            MR. KRUGER:  Your Honour, it's not necessary for that name to be

24    in private session.

25       Q.   Now, before (redacted) arrived at the gate, let me ask you

Page 10533

 1    this:  Did you at any stage go beyond the gate into Dretelj, the camp

 2    itself?

 3       A.   No.  They wouldn't let us enter.  We were there with (redacted)  I

 4    asked whether my son had come there from the line; he said yes.  All those

 5    who were in the HVO were there in Dretelj.  I asked where my husband was.

 6    They had taken him away.

 7       Q.   (redacted), how did it come that you spoke to him

 8    specifically?

 9       A.   Well, he was a neighbour of ours.  That's why we approached him.

10    I had taken some clothes with me for my son, if he was there, and he

11    said, "He's here.  Do you want to --" I asked him, "Will you give this to

12    him?"  He said, "Yes."  And that's how we returned.  We returned again,

13    the three of us.

14       Q.   Before carrying on from there, (redacted), was he in a

15    uniform?

16       A.   Yes.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, is (redacted) still

18    alive?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.

21                          [Private session]

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10534

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8                          [Open session]

 9            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session.

10            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  As there has been an interruption, Mr. Kruger,

11    would you bear with me if I ask another question to be quite clear.

12            You have said, madam, that you stayed until 1.00, and you have

13    also said that you arrived at Capljina around 12.00.  Do you mean 1.00 in

14    the afternoon or 1.00 in the night?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the afternoon.  We waited there

16    for a while.  We couldn't continue on foot.  Then we found a taxi driver.

17    We asked him to drive us somewhere.  He said, "Where are you going?"  We

18    said, "Aladinici."  We said, "Aladinici."  He said, "I'll just go as far

19    as the check-point.  I can't go any further."

20            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  So it appears that you have been there less than

21    one hour, between 12.00 and 1.00.

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that.

23            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Hvala ljepo.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

25            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 10535

 1       Q.   Now, Witness, you say that you gave this man the passage that you

 2    had brought for your son.  Did you afterwards find out whether your son

 3    had received this passage or not?

 4       A.   No, he didn't receive this.  They called him out when he arrived

 5    there.  It wasn't -- well, it wasn't easy to reach him.  I don't know what

 6    he showed.  He said, "I wish they hadn't called me out.  When they called

 7    me out, I stood up and they started beating me," people who knew him.  As

 8    to what happened to the bag ...

 9       Q.   Now, Witness, one final question on this aspect.  I asked you

10    previously that the man you spoke to at the gate, was he in a uniform?

11     A.   Well, yes, (redacted), he was in the HVO.  I don't know.  Perhaps he

12    had a high rank than ordinary soldiers.

13       Q.   Thank you.

14            MR. KRUGER:  Your Honour, my apology.  There is a redaction in

15    line 4, on page 25, where the first name of the person was mentioned.  If

16    that can be redacted from the record.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.  Mr. Registrar,

18    could you prepare an order.

19            MR. KRUGER:

20       Q.   Witness, if we can now move on.  About a week later, is it correct

21    that you also went to Gabela to see if you could take things to your

22    husband?

23       A.   Correct.  I did take things there, clothes --

24       Q.   How did you get to Gabela?

25       A.   Gabela.  We went by bus.  There was a bus full of us who went

Page 10536

 1    there.  We arrived in Gabela.  The bus returned.  I don't know how many

 2    women there were.  We arrived at the gate.  There was a man at the gate

 3    who said, "Don't make a noise.  Stop there."  We just said we had come to

 4    see whether our men were there.  He said, "Stop there.  I have a list.

 5    Listen to the names of those who are here."  He read through the list.

 6    When he read out the name of my man, I said, "I've brought some clothes

 7    for him, some underwear.  Would you give it to him?"  He said he would.

 8    And all the women who had brought things with them gave these things to

 9    him.  He said, "Don't give me any cigarettes.  I'll take the clothes or

10    the biscuits and chocolate."  And that's all I know.  I know nothing else.

11       Q.   Do you know whether your husband received his package?

12       A.   When he came three months later, I asked him and he said that he

13    had received it.  But before a man from a mixed marriage came, I asked him

14    whether they had these clothes, this underwear, because they had nothing,

15    and he said that he saw a shirt on him.  So that's how I knew that they

16    had given him these clothes.

17       Q.   The person that was at the gate who had the list that he read

18    from, how was this person clothed?

19       A.   He was in civilian clothes.  He had a cap on his head.  He wasn't

20    a soldier.

21       Q.   Did you see any soldiers at that location on that day, or people

22    in uniform?

23       A.   No.  No.  In Dretelj, yes.

24       Q.   Now, Witness, I'm going to move to a different topic now.

25            MR. KRUGER:  And if we can, for a moment, go back into private

Page 10537

 1    session for this part of the evidence, Your Honour.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

 3                          [Private session]

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10538

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15                          [Open session]

16            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

17    Mr. President.

18            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you.

19       Q.   Now, Witness, if we can now move to the period of around 13 July,

20    1993, and this is the day that you saw -- when Rotimlja was on fire.

21    Please tell us what happened that morning, where you went, and what you

22    saw.

23       A.   We heard there's been an attack of some kind.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, please speak up.  Please

25    try to speak more loudly.

Page 10539

 1       A.   We heard there would be an attack.  There was some shooting one

 2    could hear.  I and two children and my daughter-in-law were in the cellar,

 3    in the basement.  That was the case in all the houses where there were

 4    women and children.  We all went down into the basement.

 5            Perhaps a little later, in another Mahala -- well, there are the

 6    Balavci there, perhaps 10 or 15 houses.  We said, "Well, perhaps we can go

 7    up there.  They have basements.  We could go to the house or the basement

 8    of (redacted)."  We went there, and you can see Rotimlja from there.

 9    You can see everything.  You can see the lines.  Everything is in an open

10    space there.

11            I and three women said, "Let's go home."  There's my house and

12    those two individuals went to their houses.  They were neighbours of

13    mine.  That's what I can say.

14            MR. KRUGER:  Your Honour, I'm afraid that there's been another

15    name mentioned - that's at line 25, on page 28 - which needs a redaction.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, line 25, 28 --

17    page 28, line 25, Mr. Registrar.

18            MR. KRUGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honour, for the next

19    piece, if we can again go into private session.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.

21                          [Private session]

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10540











11    Pages 10540-10542 redacted. Private session















Page 10543

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23                          [Open session]

24            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are now in open session.

25            MR. KRUGER:

Page 10544

 1      Q.   Witness, is it correct that you were held in the shop of (redacted)

 2    (redacted) from the day you were put in there until about 4.00 the next

 3    afternoon?

 4       A.   Yes, we were.  We were taken away the first day, about 9.00.  We

 5    spent the night there.  And the next day, around 4.00, they let us out and

 6    took us to Crnici school.

 7       Q.   In that period you were locked up in the shop of (redacted), did

 8    you receive --

 9            MR. KRUGER:  My apologies, Your Honour.  That was my mistake.  If

10    we can have that redaction.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12            Registrar, please prepare the order.  We'll have ten minutes less.

13            MR. KRUGER:  My apologies, Your Honour.

14       Q.   Witness, did you receive any food while you were in that shop?

15       A.   Nothing.  They didn't give us a thing to eat.  That day, that

16    night, the second day, nothing.  And I forgot to say that evening, when

17    they drove us out in a car, in a village called Borovici, there were 30,

18    40, civilians who spent the night with us.

19       Q.   In the shop?

20       A.   And the next day, women, children, everybody -- yes.  They brought

21    them in a big car.  And we waited until the next day, at 4.00, when Stanko

22    Sutalo unlocked us, if I'm allowed to say the name.

23       Q.   No.  At this stage please don't mention names.  We're in open

24    session now.

25       A.   All right.  All right.

Page 10545

 1       Q.   Before going on, while being held in the shop with all these other

 2    people, were any of you allowed to go out to the toilet?

 3       A.   No one was allowed to.  Some women were crying, begging.  There

 4    were iron windows, but they told us, "Do whatever you need to do inside.

 5    You are not going outdoors."

 6       Q.   And is that, indeed, what then happened?

 7       A.   Yes, that's how it happen.  The next day, around 4.00, or maybe

 8    5.00, they unlocked.  When you go out, the space is a bit broader and the

 9    people gathered there.  What else can I tell you?

10       Q.   Now, when you were taken out that afternoon, at about 4.00, you

11    said that you were then transferred to the school in Crnici.  How far away

12    was that school, approximately, from where you had been held in the shop?

13       A.   Not far.  Maybe 500 metres, a kilometre.  It's not far away.

14       Q.   And when you arrived at the school, tell the Court what you found

15    at the school, without mentioning names.

16       A.   Right.  As for our Mahala and for other Mahalas, everybody had

17    been brought there.  That schoolhouse is on three storeys.  I found my

18    daughter-in-law there with her two children; I talked to them for a

19    while.  And then a woman turned up at the door, asked, (redacted)

20    (redacted)?"  We said, "Yes".  And the soldier said, "You two

21    follow me."

22            We went through the crowd.  We left the school, went through the

23    school gate.  There was a car standing there and the driver, and they told

24    us, "Get into the car."  "I won't."  We didn't know the people who were

25    taking us away.  And from there they took us to Kostana --

Page 10546

 1            MR. KRUGER:  Your Honour --

 2       A.   -- Kostana hospital.

 3            MR. KRUGER:  -- at page 35, at line 11, the name was mentioned

 4    there which requires redaction.  Apologies.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was wondering if that's a

 6    first or a last name.  If it's a first name -- anyway, out of an abundance

 7    of caution.

 8            Anyway, Mr. Registrar, would you please prepare the order.

 9            Listen, maybe we should go into private session, because at this

10    rate we are going to be deadlocked by these problems with names.

11            Registrar, we are going into private session.

12                          [Private session]

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10547











11    Pages 10547-10585 redacted. Private session















Page 10586

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15                          [Open session]

16            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

17    Mr. President.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Now that we are in

19    open session, the two witnesses who will be appearing tomorrow are ready,

20    Mr. Mundis?  We'll have two 92 ter witnesses, if I have understood things

21    correctly.

22            MR. MUNDIS:  That is correct, Mr. President.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the schedule is

24    concerned, as we have two witnesses and the Prosecution has said that they

25    would need about 20 minutes, it would be good if the Defence had one hour

Page 10587

 1    for the first witness and one hour for the second witness, and then we

 2    would be able to complete the examination of the two witnesses by

 3    tomorrow.

 4            Mr. Karnavas.

 5            MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  So I take it, what we'd

 6    learned earlier this morning from Mr. Scott when he said one had not

 7    caught the plane, had missed the plane and wouldn't be here, I thought

 8    that's what I understood.  Either it was a slip of the tongue or maybe he

 9    was misinformed.  I just don't want to let this pass on, because --

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're right.

11            Mr. Mundis, I thought I understood, because of a flight problem,

12    there's one witness who could not be here this morning, but he will

13    certainly be here tomorrow.  So tomorrow both witnesses will appear.

14            MR. MUNDIS:  Certainly that's my understanding as well, Your

15    Honour, that both witnesses will be here and will be testifying tomorrow.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So the Defence will

17    have one hour for the first witness and one hour for the next witness.

18            MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask you

19    to let us have more time for cross-examination for a very simple reason.

20    The topic covered tomorrow will be approximately the same as today.  We

21    did not question today's witness on the basis of documents, nor did we

22    comment on the document that the Prosecutor showed her for a very simple

23    reason, because she couldn't read or write.  Tomorrow, we have another

24    witness, and I would appreciate it if we could have more time.  But in any

25    case, we will not go further than the session.

Page 10588

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, for the two

 2    witnesses for tomorrow, did you envisage the same documents?  Or maybe

 3    there are other documents.  Because if it's the same documents, everybody

 4    has seen them this morning; and if you have different documents, then

 5    Ms. Alaburic would be right.

 6            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  My understanding is that

 7    there is a substantial overlap of the documents for the witnesses tomorrow

 8    with respect to the witness who appeared today, but it's not a complete

 9    overlap.

10            Again, the two lawyers that will be dealing with the witnesses

11    tomorrow, as all the lawyers on this case, have been informed to expedite

12    the matters as quickly as possible and to only deal with those documents

13    which the witness can actually speak to.  So I can assure everyone that we

14    will be moving as quickly as possible, and we wouldn't have scheduled

15    these two witnesses for the same day if we didn't believe that there would

16    be ample opportunity for everyone to put questions to the witnesses and to

17    complete their testimony in one day.

18                          [Trial Chamber confers]

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleague was just telling me

20    this:  Tomorrow, normally we have four hours at our disposal.  The

21    Prosecutor will take 20, plus 20 minutes; that's 40.  That leaves us with

22    three hours.  When I said "one hour plus one hour," I meant that thinking

23    that we could go beyond that.  So be reassured you will have enough time,

24    which doesn't mean that you should be asking the same questions of both

25    witnesses.  Concentrate on one set of questions for one witness and

Page 10589

 1    another set for another witness.  It's up to you to manage your

 2    questioning, of course.

 3            Ms. Alaburic, rest assured, you will have enough time.  But the

 4    Trial Chamber believes that tomorrow's day should be amply sufficient for

 5    both witnesses.

 6            MR. KARNAVAS:  Again, for court efficiency purposes, I think it

 7    would be useful if the prosecuting attorney, if they're going to be

 8    referring to a document, that they have the document pre-marked in advance

 9    so that they could direct their witness immediately to that document.

10            Secondly, I believe, in light of the rules that we have adopted

11    here and that are used here, it would not, in my opinion, be out of the

12    ordinary or improper, for instance, to get a narrative from the witness,

13    and then after getting a narrative on a particular point that is related

14    to a document, merely make reference -- to say to the Court, for the

15    record, you know, matters to this effect will be found in this particular

16    document, citing the document itself.  Then we could save some time that

17    way.  Because moving the document in, the witness obviously cannot

18    authenticate the document, nor is the witness here to authenticate, but

19    they're here to either validate one way or another whether certain

20    information in a document is true, accurate, complete, or whatever.  So

21    there may be ways of moving ahead as quickly as possible through these

22    documents.  Then the Defence is able, knowing which portions of the

23    documents are being used, to either confront on those portions or to

24    confront on the rest of the document.

25            So what I'm suggesting is we could save time from the

Page 10590

 1    Prosecution's point of view, and whatever savings could be given to the

 2    Defence, and that way we can all benefit.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In fact, narratives are very

 4    useful.  Take Witness X, who had been detained for a couple of days in a

 5    schoolhouse.  The Prosecutor could say, "Could you please explain,

 6    Witness, what happened, in that school X," and then the witness can

 7    go, "On that day I found myself in that school," and then the witness can

 8    narrate what happened to them.  You can supplement this by asking whether

 9    the other people at the school were civilians or military.  And once it's

10    over, together with the documents, "I will show you now a list of all the

11    people detained in that school.  Look at 14.  Is that your name?"  The

12    person can say, "Yes, it is."  And that's how we save time, which enables

13    the Defence later to use the time more efficiently, and it enables the

14    Trial Chamber time to intercede with questions.

15            Obviously that's what Defence counsel suggested, and I believe it

16    is absolutely appropriate.  The Prosecution should find the best way to go

17    forward with it.  Everybody would always like more time, but in order to

18    be more productive, we have to find the best -- the most efficient way to

19    proceed, and that enables us to save a lot of time, a huge amount of time.

20            So I subscribe completely to the suggestions of Mr. Karnavas, and

21    I expect the others will, too.

22            MR. MURPHY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Very briefly, if I could

23    just address the question of the application for certification of the

24    Trial Chamber's decision of the 13th of November.  I mention this because

25    Your Honours had indicated that you would be conferring about this, I

Page 10591

 1    think, quite soon.

 2            General Petkovic has filed already a separate application.  I just

 3    wanted to advise the Trial Chamber that this afternoon the remaining

 4    accused will file a document which has the effect of joining and

 5    supporting both the Prosecution's application and also General Petkovic's

 6    application, and that should be with Your Honours during the course of the

 7    afternoon.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As I said yesterday,

 9    we are going to discuss it as soon as this afternoon, and we are going to

10    share our decision verbally tomorrow concerning this certification.  The

11    problem is we don't have written filings from other Defence teams, but I

12    suppose you are going to present the same arguments.  Concerning the

13    filings of Mr. Petkovic, we see that there is a reference to the

14    translation problems, the differences between French and English, that the

15    word used in the English does not reflect exactly what we said in French.

16            JUDGE PRANDLER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I, of course, do not

17    want to come into the substantive issues here, but I would like to add

18    that, in view of the fact that it is a very important question, and also,

19    secondly, that now, apart from the Prosecution's submission, we have also

20    the submissions of the Defence, that is why I really believe - and, of

21    course, the Judges will discuss this this afternoon - if, instead of an

22    oral decision, a written decision is to be adopted by us, because I

23    believe that it is so important a question that it would probably much

24    better to do so.  I am saying this without judging the final outcome of

25    the deliberations of the Judges.  Thank you.

Page 10592

 1            MR. MURPHY:  Your Honour, if it will assist to make it clear, the

 2    document that the other accused will file this afternoon will not add any

 3    additional arguments, really.  They're really just an encapsulation of the

 4    points that we made during oral argument on the 6th of November, when we

 5    were given the opportunity to address the Trial Chamber.

 6            But, Your Honour, just addressing what Your Honour said about the

 7    linguistic question, if there are issues on which the Trial Chamber would

 8    find it helpful to have the input of counsel, Your Honour, of course,

 9    Mr. Stewart and I, I think, do speak enough French to assist on that

10    question.  If the Court would like to refer that to us for further

11    argument, we would, of course, do our best to assist the Trial Chamber in

12    that respect also.

13            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, I'm grateful to you, Mr. Murphy, for

14    telling us that you will not tell us anything new as far as the argument

15    is concerned, because actually we planned to attack this problem at 3.00

16    in our meeting this afternoon.  And I take it now that it is possible to

17    do so without risking hence to be confronted with completely different

18    arguments.

19            On your offer of assistance, thank you very much.  We appreciate

20    this.  I recall that our decision is a very simple one.  It's a lock --

21    it's locked and our decision is to say unlock.  Like in Harry Potter,

22    everything is opened then and you can go ahead.  So I do not think that we

23    need more linguistic assistance or any further discussion.  The danger and

24    the temptation to get into the merits is very strong, of course, and I

25    think we have to resist it.  Thank you.

Page 10593

 1            MR. MURPHY:  Your Honour, the Defence, of course, doesn't have a

 2    magic wand to offer to the Trial Chamber, unfortunately.  But what I can

 3    do, if it would be helpful - of course, we will be filing our document

 4    electronically - I would be very happy, if the Trial Chamber would wish,

 5    to send it to Your Honours directly by e-mail so that you have it.  It

 6    will be the same document, as a courtesy copy.  I can do that immediately.

 7            JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That would be helpful.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Murphy, we

 9    accept your suggestion, and if you could send this to us by e-mail, we

10    would be able to familiarise ourselves with that document by 3.00.

11            It's now time to adjourn, so I'd invite everyone to return for the

12    hearing that will start tomorrow at 9.00.  Thank you very much.

13                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

14                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day

15                          of November, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.