Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11614

1 Wednesday, 13 December 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

8 Case IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. I'd

10 like to welcome everyone in the court, the representatives of the

11 Prosecution, all the Defence counsel, and Mr. Murphy who is back with us

12 today. I'd also like to say good afternoon to the accused.

13 We're going to follow the proceedings today. We're having some

14 more witnesses in, but before that I have two oral decisions, and I'd like

15 to give a reminder with respect to IC numbers and exhibits, and I'd like

16 to ask all the parties to furnish IC lists for CO, Witness CO who appeared

17 on the 6th and 7th of December. And I've also like to invite the parties

18 who have not yet done so for CQ who appeared on the 11th and 12th of

19 December, and I would like to say that the Prosecutor of 2D, 5D, and 4D

20 have already provided us with their lists.

21 And now I'd like to read two oral decisions the first of which is

22 as follows. It relates to the exhibits produced with Witness CL who

23 appeared on the 4th of December, 2006.

24 The Chamber has decided to admit the following exhibits presented

25 by the Prosecution because it deems that they have a certain amount of

Page 11615

1 probative value and pertinence and I'm going to read them out slowly P

2 01021, P 08983, P 08985 under seal, P 09583, IC 00134 under seal, IC

3 00135.

4 The Chamber has decided to reject Exhibits P 08986 because it was

5 not presented to Witness CL during the witness's testimony. The Chamber

6 would also like to note that the Defence did not ask for the admission of

7 any exhibits.

8 Second oral decision which has to do with exhibits relating to the

9 testimony of Witness CG who appeared on the 28th of November, 2006. The

10 Chamber has decided to admit the following exhibits presented by the

11 Prosecution because it considers that they represent a certain degree of

12 reliability, probative value and relevance, and they are the following: P

13 09770 under seal, P 03035, P 03652, P 03063, P 03668, P 08858 under seal,

14 P 09086, P 09738, P 09739, P 09740, P 09742, and P 09743.

15 The Chamber would like to note that as far as the last exhibit is

16 concerned, it was admitted by a majority decision. However, the Chamber

17 has decided to reject the admission of the following exhibits, as

18 requested by the Prosecution, because they were not presented during the

19 hearing through the intermediary of Witness CG, and there are three of

20 those: P 03659, P 03665, and P 03670.

21 The Chamber would like to remind the Prosecution that it can

22 present those exhibits through another witness or file a written motion

23 requesting their admission pursuant to the guidelines set out in the

24 ruling of the 29th of November, 2006, which has to do with the admission

25 of evidence and exhibits.

Page 11616

1 The Chamber has also decided to admit the exhibits put into the

2 file by the Defence of Mr. Stojic which are contained on list IC 00129, as

3 well as those of the Defence of Mr. Praljak contained in the list IC

4 00128, and also Exhibit 4D 00461 filed by the Defence of Mr. Petkovic.

5 And the reason they are being admitted is that these exhibits do have a

6 certain level of reliability, probative value, and relevance.

7 Those were our two oral decisions.

8 Now, as regards the next witness -- or, rather, the witness that

9 will be coming this afternoon and tomorrow, the Prosecution has informed

10 us by courier -- by e-mail that they will be needing additional time, and

11 they have three and a half hours in view of the fact that during the

12 proofing session the coming witness explained that he reviewed a book on

13 Gabela, compiled a book on Gabela, and the Chamber deliberated this

14 morning and will not agree to that request because the Prosecution will

15 have in all two hours and a half for the witness that will be coming after

16 we hear the current witness. And as far as the last witness of the week

17 goes, the Defence will have two and a half hours.

18 The Chamber would like to remind everybody that the witness at the

19 end of this week will be testifying about Gabela, and we have had quite a

20 lot of testimony on Gabela thus far, a lot of exhibits and evidence about

21 Gabela. So I wanted to tell you that under those conditions it is not

22 necessary to add another hour to the examination-in-chief time already

23 accorded.

24 Without further ado, we're going to have the next witness brought

25 in, the witness that is waiting, and I'd like to tell the accused that

Page 11617

1 they have 20 minutes, and the Defence teams will have one hour in total.

2 It would be ideal if we could wind up with this witness before the first

3 break, take our regular 20-minute break afterwards, and then start off

4 with the last witness for the week, to hear his it testimony today, to

5 continue tomorrow, and that will allow the Defence teams to use up the two

6 and a half times they have been accorded for the cross-examination, and

7 also will allow enough time for the Judges to ask questions if they deem

8 necessary.

9 [The witness enters court]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, I would like to

11 give you the floor for our IC numbers, and after that Mr. Scott you'll

12 have the floor.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 [In English] Addendum to the OTP list of tendered exhibits for

15 Witness CM will be given Exhibit number IC 171. The OTP list of tendered

16 exhibits for Witness CQ will be given Exhibit number IC 172. 2D list of

17 tendered exhibits for Witness CQ will be given Exhibit number IC 173. The

18 OTP response to the exhibits tendered through Witness CQ by 2D will be

19 given Exhibit number IC 174. 5D's list of tendered exhibits for CQ will

20 be given Exhibit number 175. And 4D's list of tendered exhibits for

21 Witness CQ will be given Exhibit number IC 176. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if I might have one minute of the Court's

25 time for procedural matters because I know sometimes at the end of the day

Page 11618

1 we all get a bit rushed. In -- first thing, Your Honour, the Prosecution

2 would like to request that as we come to the end of this -- this series of

3 trial days before the holiday, and tomorrow will be our last day, we would

4 ask the Chamber to please provide or ask the registry to please provide an

5 updated time analysis of the sort that was done some weeks ago and has

6 been done a couple of times. It very well may be the Chamber's already

7 contemplated that but we think that is a helpful -- that's helpful

8 information for everyone to have and -- since we're now completing the

9 trial for this calendar year, we think it would be helpful to have the

10 most current statistics. Point number one.

11 Point number two, Your Honour, very, very briefly. Your Honour,

12 I'd just like to note our objection and concern about the time constraints

13 put on the following witness. The -- the Chamber's already put severe

14 time limits on the Prosecution's overall case. It seems to us to some

15 extent that --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, there are no

17 objections to a ruling made by the Trial Chamber already. So if you're

18 questioning our decision, our ruling, that is just not possible.

19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm not familiar with --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Unless I misunderstood you.

21 MR. SCOTT: I am expressing, Your Honour, our objection. I think

22 it's common practice for parties to object to rulings and decisions and to

23 state their positions to the Court. I'm not familiar with any other

24 procedure.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A ruling can be appealed. In

Page 11619

1 that case, you would file a notice for appeal. I have no further


3 MR. SCOTT: I would hope, Your Honour, that it would be more

4 productive to engage in dialogue with the Chamber sometime and see if

5 there is a more efficient way forward than having to resort to an appeal

6 when open dialogue and some exchanges of views might be far more

7 productive than the Prosecution seeking to have an appeal every time

8 there's a disagreement.

9 The witness that was -- it's not accurate to say that the

10 Prosecution asked for more time. The original estimate -- time estimate

11 in the 65 ter filing made in January for the witness was four hours and

12 the Prosecution, in fact, has reduced its overall time limit. And when

13 the Prosecution is already facing severe time limits on its case, we would

14 simply submit that some deference should be given, with all respect. The

15 Prosecution's using its limited time in the most valuable way that it sees

16 appropriate and if, after a deliberate consideration of this witness, it

17 seems that was a fair use of the Prosecution's time, that might be given

18 some further consideration. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to check if on the

20 65 ter list you envisaged four hours. I would be surprised if that were

21 the case, but we're going to check that out.

22 If we have enough time until tomorrow evening, 7.00 p.m.,

23 there's no problem. However, as we're going to finish the year, our

24 year's work tomorrow evening, we'll have to look at the calendar and

25 time constraints.

Page 11620

1 I understood it that as far as tomorrow's witness is concerned,

2 there will be an exhibit or a few exhibits relating to the destruction of

3 a mosque, which doesn't seem to be included in the indictment. So would

4 it not be a waste of time to question a witness on a fact that is not in

5 the indictment?

6 Mr. Scott, the legal assistant has just told me that on the 65

7 ter list it was two hours that were envisaged and not four hours, as you

8 said.

9 MR. SCOTT: I'll be happy to double-check it Your Honour. I could

10 be wrong. I certainly allow for that possibility. That's not the

11 information I was given before coming into the courtroom but I'm happy to

12 check, of course. As to the -- well, I don't know if the second part of

13 the Court's earlier part was a rhetorical question or a question that you

14 actually expected me to respond to concerning mosque but I'll leave it in

15 the Chamber's hands. I hate to use the witness's time to address that,

16 frankly.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say was if we

18 start the issue of a mosque that was destroyed but which is not in the

19 indictment, then it is not necessary to go into that particular issue

20 since it does not figure in the indictment. That's what I wanted to tell

21 you.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Witness good afternoon.

Page 11621

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's last day of your testimony.

2 The Prosecution has 20 minutes in which to ask you the questions it has

3 left and after that the Defence teams will have one hour for the

4 cross-examination.

5 Mr. Poryvaev, you have the floor.

6 MR. PORYVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. I've just been told that I

7 have 21 minutes. Sorry.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're not going to split hairs.

9 Examination by Mr. Poryvaev: [Continued]

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Poljarevic.

11 A. Good afternoon, sir.

12 Q. I would like you to take a look at Exhibit P 07158.

13 A. Would you repeat the number, please?

14 Q. P 07158. This is a list of detainees from Jablanica and Sovici

15 and some other areas in prison who should remain in Heliodrom because they

16 needed for an change of Croats in Jablanica. The list is produced by list

17 of prisons and dated the 14th of December, 1993.

18 Witness, take a look at this exhibit. And take a look at the

19 second page of the exhibit as well, after you're through the first

20 page.

21 A. Yes. I can see that. I can see it is a list of the people who

22 were in the camp with me, and in the first place I see a name, Semir Fadil

23 Junuzovic. He was underage at the time, this boy. And I think I saw some

24 other names, many other underage people, and some elderly people as well

25 on that list who were pensioners, such as, for example, Salko Kukic. I

Page 11622

1 can't see what number that is, but anyway, Salko Kukic.

2 Q. Do you see your own name --

3 A. Muharem Salko Kukic. My name as well.

4 Q. Under which number do you have your name? It's number 40. Just

5 maybe -- your binder is very tight.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Witness, I have one question. How many Muslim detainees were

8 transferred from Ljubuski in May 1993 to Heliodrom, approximately? Do you

9 know?

10 A. You'll have to tell me which month that was. Ah, yes.

11 Q. May.

12 A. Yes, May. Not May. I think it was April. What was the question?

13 How many were transferred from where?

14 Q. From Ljubuski to Heliodrom.

15 A. I think that the number of people that were transferred is over

16 100, on the 27th of May, from Ljubuski to Heliodrom.

17 Q. Witness, this document is dated 14th of December, as I have told,

18 and here, with exception of four people who were from other

19 municipalities, we see about 51 persons in total who remained in Heliodrom

20 at that time. My question is: What happened to the rest of your Sovici

21 inmates in Heliodrom?

22 A. They were it transferred to Heliodrom with me, all of us, even a

23 larger number than it says here. I think they were transferred -- well,

24 some from Sovici in one group, and some later on in a second group.

25 Q. Perhaps you have not understood me rightly. I ask you that we

Page 11623

1 have in this document about 50 persons from Sovici and Doljani.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In Heliodrom in December 1993. My question was: And what

4 happened to the rest of them? I mean, about 60 or a little bit more

5 persons who were transferred from Ljubuski to Heliodrom at the end of May

6 1993. Do you know about the fate of any of them?

7 A. There were many people who lost lives on the road to forced

8 labour. Many of them were in Heliodrom and at various locations doing

9 forced labour.

10 Q. Okay. We'll come back to this issue a little bit later. Now I

11 would like Mr. Poljarevic to turn to Exhibit 07183. P 07183.

12 A. Yes, I have it.

13 Q. I would like you to turn to page 3. Do you see detainees from

14 Sovici on page 3? Just look at the -- at the second column from the right

15 and you will see the municipality.

16 A. As far as I can see, Ferid, son of Rasid, Perid. Falko Dzuliman

17 [phoen]. That's a person from Sovici.

18 Q. Now to page 5. Try to be a little quicker because we have too

19 little time left. It's not a question about particular names.

20 A. Yes, Zaim, son of Fehin [phoen] Helbet from Sovici, under number

21 50.

22 Q. Now please turn to page 9. Just at the bottom of the page

23 underneath the names there are some comments. Do you see the comments?

24 Not written; typed comments first.

25 In these comments they say that the remainder from the list are

Page 11624

1 engaged in fortifying HVO positions. Therefore, cannot be released.

2 The document is dated on the 15th of December, 1993. My question

3 is -- Mr. Poljarevic, do you hear me?

4 A. Yes, I hear you. What was the question?

5 Q. Were detainees involved in forced labour in December 1993?

6 A. Yes, of course. Like before that time, before December.

7 Q. After January 1993 -- sorry, December 9 -- 1993.

8 A. Yes. It was the same in January and February, all the way until

9 March when I was exchanged.

10 Q. Were you personally involved in forced labour?

11 A. No, not personally, because I shirked and avoided it as much as I

12 could, and I had -- I was lucky. I was returned from Gabela to an upper

13 floor where I was mostly with people from Stolac. They were taken out for

14 forced labour, and I tried to hide in the background because I didn't want

15 to be chosen.

16 Q. Witness, my question is: There are two lists we are talking

17 about, the list of the 14th of December and 15th of December. Were there

18 any proposals at the time for your release? Proposal, I mean emanating

19 from the management of the camp of Heliodrom.

20 A. I'm sorry, what period are you talking about?

21 Q. I'm talking about December. We are talking about December 1993,

22 about the time when --

23 A. Yes, yes. In December, I was on some sort of list of people to be

24 exchanged. In mid-December many people were exchanged, and I, together

25 with 43 other people, remained until the end in the gym, at least what

Page 11625

1 used to be a gym before that. We were kept there seven days. We did all

2 sort of works. They kept us concealed. And then on the 25th of May we

3 were transferred to Gabela.

4 Q. My question was --

5 A. 25th December. I said May. That was a mistake. 25th December I

6 was transferred to Gabela with that group of 43 persons.

7 Q. My question was: Did you have any options for being released,

8 where to go?

9 A. A lot of efforts have been made -- were made for people to be sent

10 to third countries, but I personally didn't want to go to a third country.

11 I wanted to go back to Jablanica and find my family and see if any of them

12 survived and, if so, how many, because I had not seen them or had any

13 contact with them for 10 and a half months.

14 Q. Okay. Now let's turn to Exhibit 07498.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait, Mr. Poryvaev.

16 Concerning this list, this 1.183 -- 7.183, you said the people

17 what's names are encircled were subject to criminal prosecution. If we go

18 to the first page, for instance, we see that number 150, Mustafa, son of

19 Emir Arfadzan from Sovici, year of birth '69, was criminally prosecuted.

20 Then number 62, Samir, son of Hasan, Arfadzan, same thing. That explains

21 that there was a certain category of persons who could not be released

22 because they were subject to prosecution.

23 Now, Witness, do you that some of your fellow inmates were being

24 prosecuted?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not at all. I didn't know

Page 11626

1 anything about any criminal proceedings.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you didn't know.

3 Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. If we

5 look at the original of this document, on page 9, we see some handwriting,

6 just as the names were circled by hand. However, if we look at English,

7 we see something that was added that is not in the original at all, the

8 last several lines. Maybe this addition comes from another document. I

9 don't know how it came to be included in this translation.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The English translation is

11 obviously the end of page 9 in B/C/S that was translated with the first

12 asterisk with the first list, and then two asterisks and number 359 was a

13 reference to the mosque, and that was -- that comment was translated into

14 English concerning these numbers.

15 The Prosecution should have also told us, because there's a

16 question that the Judges -- that might arise in the Judges' minds and they

17 couldn't find an answer.

18 This last column is duty or service. There are certain

19 individuals on the list who were going to be either assigned or

20 transferred to units or something else. We don't know. And if you look

21 at that page, numbers 83, 113, 108, 46, and other numbers we see MUP B and

22 H. Can you tell us what that means? We see also on page 7, concerning a

23 person from Sovici, number 151, Atif Rados, it's marked RS MUP BH. And RS

24 MUP BH, is that supposed to mean Republika Srpska? I think it is.

25 Mr. Poryvaev, do you have an explanation?

Page 11627

1 MR. PORYVAEV: The only explanation might be is that there were

2 some proceedings in the Republika Srpska that period of time. That's the

3 only thing that I know. And perhaps some of these people were transferred

4 there on the request of the Serb authorities.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Alaburic.

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that we all

7 care very much to clarify this. I suppose it's not Republika Srpska after

8 all but reserve forces, "rezervni zastav" of the MUP of BH.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I want to add it's

10 actually the republic secretariat of the Ministry of Interior, RS MUP.

11 And next to the handwriting, and it says "The encircled names are persons

12 prosecuted," blah, blah. Something has been added in English that does

13 not exist in the original.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You will see a key in the last

15 column marked "Duty," or "Service," RS MUP, but it also says Republika

16 Srpska. It is deciphered that way. Maybe it's a mistake.

17 Anyway, Mr. Poryvaev, you may continue.

18 MR. PORYVAEV: Yes. Would I like witness to take a look at

19 Exhibit 07498.

20 Q. This is a list of persons, civilians and prisoners of war who died

21 during work, which was addressed to the office of exchange, to

22 Mr. Berislav Pusic, and it is dated the 6th of January, 1994.

23 Witness, do you see any names on this list that are familiar to

24 you?

25 A. Yes. Ismet Cilic.

Page 11628

1 Q. Any other names?

2 A. These names -- Mustafa Tasic, Sefik Tasic, Salim Kladusak.

3 Q. Do you know the circumstances of their death?

4 A. They were taken to do forced labour on firing lines, on firing

5 positions.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said something at the end that the

7 interpreter didn't hear, maybe "near Sarajevo."


9 Q. Please repeat your response, because the interpreter doesn't make

10 it -- doesn't make it out.

11 A. They were taken to do forced labour on the first firing positions,

12 the first combat positions in Mostar.

13 Q. And what happened to them?

14 A. They got killed. They're no longer alive, unfortunately.

15 Q. How do you know that?

16 A. Sorry, I didn't hear you.

17 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. I know because they were my neighbours. I know that their corpses

19 were exchanged, and many other neighbours of mine were doing forced labour

20 together with them, and they were eyewitnesses to their death.

21 Q. And my final exhibit, P 08820.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you see the document?

24 A. Yes, I see it. This is a death certificate. We see the name of

25 Ismet Cilic.

Page 11629

1 Q. Is it the Ismet Cilic who was mentioned in the previous

2 document?

3 A. Let me see. Yes.

4 Q. Why do you think so?

5 A. Because I see that he was born on the 24th of January, '53, and I

6 know how old he was. I know that very well, because he was my neighbour.

7 He was always -- he was four years older than I was, and I was always sure

8 of that.

9 Q. And what was his father's name?

10 A. Mustafa.

11 MR. PORYVAEV: Your Honour, that was my final question, and my

12 examination-in-chief is over.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's the turn of the Defence.

14 Mr. Karnavas.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon, Your

16 Honours; good afternoon, sir. We have no questions for the gentleman, and

17 we do wish to thank him for coming here and giving his evidence. Thank

18 you very much, sir.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Next counsel. Let

20 me clarify that normally every Defence counsel has 10 minutes.

21 Ms. Nozica.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In addition

23 to that, I received five minutes from the Defence of Mr. Praljak, and I

24 will be done in 15 minutes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have 15 minutes.

Page 11630

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I just wish to inform the Chamber

2 that I submitted my list of exhibits yesterday and added one more today.

3 So they're all before you.

4 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. My question will be very brief, and I hope that we will clarify

8 all matters that we need to clarify very soon.

9 We have your statement. You described in it all the events

10 beginning with the 17th of April. Where were you on the morning of the

11 17th of April?

12 A. In my very own home at 8.00 in the morning.

13 Q. At 8.00. You determined that as the time when the conflict

14 began.

15 A. Yes, and I was at home.

16 Q. I have to wait a little for the transcript. We must not overlap

17 when speaking.

18 What did you do when the conflict began? Did you assume an active

19 role? What did you do at 8.00 in the morning?

20 A. I went out into the street. I tried to see what was going on. I

21 tried to follow the events. There were three or four of us together

22 standing close to our homes, and we are just watching, lest some evil

23 people came and attacked our families.

24 Q. Were you a member of the army of BH at the time?

25 A. No, I was not.

Page 11631

1 Q. Were you at any time a member of the army of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina?

3 A. I consider myself not to have been, because what was described in

4 my statement was a joint unit of Territorial Defence comprising both

5 Croats and Muslims, and it was only at the very beginning and it was very

6 short-lived.

7 Q. I understand you to say that you were not a member of the army of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina but a member of the joint forces of Muslims and

9 Croats.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there an ABiH unit in Sovici?

12 A. Yes. Later on it transformed into the army of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina, but first it was the Territorial Defence unit that existed in

14 the beginning.

15 Q. I'm now asking you about your knowledge, about the time just

16 before the 17th of April, 1993. Do you know that there was an army of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sovici at that time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know how many members they had?

20 A. It's easy, because everybody from Sovici was Muslim apart from

21 several people who were on the HVO side until the eve of the conflict when

22 they were driven out. It was not a large number. It could have been 60

23 to 70 persons who were active members of that unit who answered the

24 call-up.

25 Q. Did you -- were you issued with any weapons when you were in the

Page 11632

1 army, and on that day, the 17th of April, did you have a weapon?

2 A. Yes. At the very outset I was issued with a weapon. I had it for

3 just a month, and then I had a clash with Commander Orlovic and they took

4 the weapon away from me. And on that particular day when Sovici was

5 attacked I did not have a weapon.

6 Q. How about the other members of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

7 at the time? Did they have weapons? If so, what kind of weapons?

8 A. Some of them had hunting rifles, old rifles called M-48, and maybe

9 a couple of semi-automatic and automatic rifles. That's as precise as I

10 can be.

11 Q. Did you see personally if there was any shooting against the HVO

12 from the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina on that day?

13 A. I cannot say that I saw who was shooting, but in the area where

14 members of the BH army were positioned and fortified there was shooting,

15 but I don't know from whom, whether from the attackers or from their side.

16 I don't know. I was too far to see who was shooting.

17 Q. Can you tell us what was that check-point? Which position are you

18 talking about? Does it have a geographic name?

19 A. It was called Mackovica on the way to Mount Vran.

20 Q. Mackovac?

21 A. No, Mackovica, M-a-c-k-o-v-i-c-a.

22 Q. Did the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina set up any defence lines

23 the day before?

24 A. I didn't know about the setting up of any defence lines.

25 Q. Did you know -- when you say Mackovica, do you mean Duga Greda or

Page 11633

1 some other elevation?

2 A. Duga Greda is an integral part of Mackovica.

3 Q. Tell me, how were you arrested? Where were you at the moment when

4 you were arrested? Were you at home.

5 A. Yes, I was given an ultimatum conveyed to me by a woman from the

6 lower part of the village, between middle Mahala and my own hamlet,

7 Brajkovici. That woman came after dusk and passed on the message that I

8 should correct as many men, women and children as I can into my bus and

9 take them to Jablanica.

10 Q. Excuse me. Whose order was that?

11 A. It was an order from Croatian units who were in contact with

12 Dzemal Ovnovic, commander of the army.

13 Q. Let us be precise: Who gave the order, Ovnovic or the HVO?

14 A. The HVO gave the order to Ovnovic, and Ovnovic sent a message

15 through her.

16 Q. How did she find out about that?

17 A. She told me, because Ovnovic got the van of Ivan Kolak to collect

18 his family and some neighbours and take them to -- towards Jablanica. And

19 when he was coming to fetch his own family and the people around their

20 house, he used the opportunity to tell that woman, and the woman passed

21 the message to me.

22 Q. Did you obey the order? Did you try to collect as many women and

23 children as you could?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what happened?

Page 11634

1 A. All the people that I gathered, the elderly, women, and children,

2 we all reached the check-point between the secondary school in Sovici and

3 the middle Mahala. We were stopped. All the men were arrested and taken

4 to Stipe Kole's house, whereas the elderly, the women, and others, were

5 taken to the schoolhouse.

6 Q. So from your own experience and the experience of Ovnovic it turns

7 out that somebody said that women and children should be taken away and

8 then they stopped you all.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I would like to show you a document that I suppose you have before

11 you. It's 2D 00285. Before the Prosecutor continued his direct

12 examination, I found out that he would not be tendering your statement of

13 the 5th of January, 1996, but I want it on the ELMO, although you

14 confirmed in your statement to the OTP that was exhibited, dated 1997, the

15 3rd of May, 1997. Do you recognise this statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I'll just show you one passage that you spoke about at that time

18 in 1996. You say that in the first sentence that during the attack you

19 were in your family home.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The attack began at 9.00.

22 A. I said 8.00.

23 Q. You're right. That's what's written. "The attack began at 8.00

24 on the 17th of April, 1993." Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11635

1 Q. "Right away I tried together with my neighbours to organise a

2 defence of our homes."

3 "HVO soldiers mounted the strongest attack on elevation Mackovica

4 and Duga Greda, and at the same time they kept shelling civilian

5 settlements. They broke out through our lines on the same day on the --

6 at 600 hours or so."

7 So you mention lines here, defence lines.

8 A. Well, I call them lines, but in fact they were dugouts, just two

9 dugouts. In my book, you wouldn't call that a defence line.

10 Q. Nevertheless, you say the defence lines were broken through, in

11 plural. So some sort of defence lines existed back then.

12 A. I -- it could have been a misnomer. I don't know why I expressed

13 myself that way.

14 Q. I have one more document, P 0 --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on line 2 of page 22,

16 in English it says, "In my book." Did you write a book? Why did you

17 say, "In my book"? Can you explain that to me?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't written any book.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So why did you say, "In my

20 book"? Is that a bad translation of what you said in the B/C/S?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't note that, and I didn't

22 make any statement with regard to any book.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I suppose that it was a figure of speech.

24 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, if I can assist. It's an expression

25 used idiomatically in English which one might also say, "According to my

Page 11636

1 definition." Sometimes one says in English, "in my book," but not

2 referring to a book in the literal sense.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 And now one more question. Ms. Nozica showed you the document 2D

5 00285, and you said that the attack came on the 17th of April and that

6 lines were pierced, broken through at 4.00, and then there's a sentence

7 after that we Judges are interested in which wasn't raised and referred

8 to. This is what you say: "The attack on the village was perpetrated by

9 HVO units coming from Jablanica with Tuta's units and several units from

10 Croatia."

11 So what allowed you to say that there were three components of the

12 attack, the HVO, the Tuta units, and Croatian units? Because that's what

13 it says. Can you be more specific?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I probably meant the HVO as a

15 formation in its entirety, the overall formation. But there were Tuta's

16 units of the HVO, or within the HVO, so that might have been it. That

17 might have been that third component.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But why did you say that there

19 were units coming from Croatia? Your mind, what did that mean? What did

20 you have in mind when you said that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, simply because I saw some

22 insignia which said HV, had HV on the uniforms.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you saw soldiers with HV

24 insignia, did you?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 11637

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to mention

3 that I skipped that sentence, but the witness did say that in the

4 statement, that is admitted into evidence. Page 1, paragraph 5, that's

5 what he says. The HVO, Tuta's units, and the Croatian army. So it wasn't

6 intentionally that I omitted to look at that sentence.

7 Can we have P 01958 next, please, on e-court. It's a Prosecution

8 document. P 01958.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before you go ahead and ask your

10 question, I have been studying the document, and it comes from the

11 Prosecution, but it's a document -- well, where does the document come

12 from? Did you inquire where the document came from, who compiled it, and

13 so on, Ms. Nozica?

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's what I was going

15 to ask the witness. I'm going to give my assumptions of where the

16 document comes from, as to what is in point 82, and that is allegedly

17 something the witness said. So we'll try and establish that with the

18 witness.

19 Q. And I assume we are dealing with statements taken from you, sir,

20 on the day as you described it on a day when a gentleman called Azimovic

21 kept the record and you were interviewed by a man named Ivan and that was

22 on the 17th or rather the 18th. Did I understand you correctly?

23 A. The 18th.

24 Q. The 18th before you left for Ljubuski; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11638

1 Q. May we take look, Witness? Well, it's rather a long document. We

2 received it from the Prosecution. Some pages are empty, but in the

3 Croatian version if you can look at the penultimate page, number 82, and

4 that is your statement.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Ms. Nozica, I feel completely in the dark wood at

6 night. Could you tell us what this document is about? I think it's

7 unfair just to give us a text where there's a paragraph where our witness

8 is supposed to have told something but we do not know to whom. You say

9 so-and-so took the statement. We do not have the first pages of the

10 document. I think we do not have the last page. We have a number of

11 empty pages. It is really a rather strange document that I think we are

12 entitled to be enlightened what you use as a guideline for your

13 cross-examination.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all these questions

15 should be asked of the Prosecution because it was the Prosecution who

16 provided us with that document. And what I want to do now is establish

17 with the witness whether it was indeed part of his statement which he gave

18 on the 18th when he was interviewed.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, which 18th? There are 12 18ths a

20 year. It must be a month and it must be a year that I would like to know.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The 18th of April,

22 1993, because the witness yesterday during his testimony said that he gave

23 a statement and that the record was kept by a man called Azinovic, and he

24 was interviewed by a certain Ivan.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's much better. Thank you very much.

Page 11639

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation].

2 Q. Sir, have you found point 82?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you taken a -- had a look at what it says?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the first paragraph we see some of your particulars, data

7 relating to you, and you said you were engaged in the army from the month

8 of May when you were issued an automatic rifle by Dzemal Ovnovic, and then

9 it says that you had a conflict, that you returned the rifle. And then

10 you go on to say that some women conveyed an order from Dzemal to evacuate

11 the women and children to Jablanica. And you go on to describe this

12 further, and then you say you heard about the existence of a PAM for the

13 first time during the Bajram holidays, and that you do not know who

14 brought it in and when.

15 Could that, sir, be something that you were saying on the 18th

16 when the statement was taken? Did you say something along those lines?

17 A. I don't know if that's the same statement, the statement of the

18 18th from the school or -- well, they took a statement from me in Ljubuski

19 as well when I arrived. So I'm not quite clear on what -- which this

20 statement is. All I can say is this: You say that I was issued with a

21 rifle. On what date, May? What year?

22 Q. It says here the person -- "The above named has been engaged in

23 the BH army since May last year when he was issued with an automatic rifle

24 by Dzemo Ovnovic, who was the commander."

25 A. Yes. That means May 1992.

Page 11640

1 Q. It don't say the year, but is that how things stood? Is that how

2 it was?

3 A. That's how it was in 1992.

4 Q. What it says here in the document, the contents of your statement,

5 regardless of whether you gave it on the 18th or in Ljubuski, is this what

6 you said?

7 A. Yes. But I don't know anything about this PAM weapon. I don't

8 know anything about that.

9 Q. You don't remember any PAM?

10 A. No, I don't remember any PAM being in existence or that I gave the

11 statement about the PAM.

12 Q. May we look at page 1, please, for two or three short questions.

13 And I'd like to ask you about some names in actual fact. May we have page

14 1, please.

15 It says, number 1: "Ovnovic." See what it says there? You can

16 look on your screen. You have page 4. Number 1 is Ovnovic who gave a

17 statement, and in the statement it says that he was a member of the BH

18 army in Jablanica, that the army battalion which was in Sovici numbered

19 120 soldiers, and that later on they added on Doljani, and then there was

20 a total of 168 soldiers.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, I am still a bit puzzled here and must

22 clarify one thing.

23 The applicant has told us that at two times he was interrogated by

24 HVO, and he has described the scenes. He had had to stand in a

25 notoriously uncomfortable position against a wall and he was constantly

Page 11641

1 beaten. I think that according to the convention against torture of 1985

2 such a statement should not be admitted into evidence and we should not

3 hear anything about it.

4 I wonder what you have to say to this.

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the statement of this

6 witness which was provided in this bundle is not being challenged. Within

7 all this material that we received from the Prosecutor we could, if we had

8 time, establish with the witness when it was given, because here we have a

9 total, and I agree that this document is not the complete one, but there

10 are 86 persons. If we had time with the witness, we could go through all

11 the names in order to establish whether those people were interviewed or

12 interrogated on the 18th of April, 1993. And as far as I was concerned,

13 it was essential for me to establish whether the witness gave this kind of

14 statement. And here in the document there is a list of weapons which

15 individuals in Sovici had in their possession on that day, on the day when

16 the conflict in Sovici took place. And I wanted to go through this with

17 the witness looking at the individual names written in this document to

18 establish whether he knows these people and whether he knows that that

19 type of -- those types of weapons existed in Sovici.

20 I fully agree with what you said. His statement was given to the

21 witness just for him to say whether he recognises it, not for me to use it

22 against him in any way, just for identification and in order to establish

23 certain other facts mentioned in the document.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Counsel Nozica, in

25 my opinion, I think you have exhausted your 15 minutes, so could you wind

Page 11642

1 up by asking a general question and extract -- and give us the message,

2 the Judges the message you're trying to convey. So ask the witness the

3 question and make your message to us visible, although I do think I know

4 what you're trying to establish, but try and do it that way.

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation].

6 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you, since I don't have time to go through

7 the whole document, number 4, we have the name of Nijaz Kladusa. Do you

8 know the name?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is he from your village?

11 A. Yes. And his father's name is Momir.

12 Q. Yes. Now 26, Kukic, Omer, Safet's son. Do you know that name?

13 Is that familiar?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you have used up 18

15 minutes, whereas your time was 15 minutes, which you have surpassed by

16 three minutes. So we looked at 26. We looked at number 4. Ask him your

17 final question and then he can answer.

18 I've read the document. I've read the 86 statements. So as far

19 as I'm concerned, I am fully informed of the contents of the document. Go

20 ahead and ask him the question.

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation].

22 Q. Sir, these names, and I found two, and I wanted to ask you about a

23 third one, but anyway, they say that there were many more weapons and that

24 practically every individual who gave a statement here was in possession

25 of a weapon, almost every single individual. Did you know about that?

Page 11643

1 Did you have knowledge and awareness about that at the time when this was

2 happening, or did you know nothing about that? Did you know nothing about

3 how the unit in Sovici was armed?

4 A. I knew for certain that it was very poorly armed and had very few

5 weapons, and I knew people who never had any weapons at all.

6 Q. I have overstepped my time already, so I can't ask another

7 question, but this is a very important question area, and I'm sure the

8 other Defence teams will take it up. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, your comrade, Senad

10 Arfadzan, number 70 in the document, says the following: He says the

11 battalion had five to six M-48s, four to five PAPs, six M-72s, two

12 82-millimetre mortars with 40 shells, et cetera.

13 Now, the Defence has asked you whether your comrades were armed or

14 not and your answer was, no, they were poorly armed. So what can you say

15 to this? Poorly armed, well-armed, not armed at all? They were average?

16 How can you qualify this unit who -- which was prevent, because that is

17 quite clear on the basis of these 86 statements, it was there that unit?

18 So there were more 82-millimetre mortars at least. We can see

19 that for sure.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they said they had one.

21 Now, I never heard of the second one before today. Now, how many pieces,

22 whether they were or whether they were well-armed or poorly armed or

23 average, I'm not an expert to be able to assess this, to say what kind of

24 rifles they had and how many rifles per unit members, what would be

25 considered well-armed and what would be considered average, or whatever.

Page 11644

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There was even an RPG. That's

2 what one of your comrades says.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not aware of that.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But let's stop there. Next

5 Defence counsel, please.

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon to you. I would like you

9 to take a look at a document, if you've received my set of documents, and

10 may we have it on e-court. It is P 01979. P 01979. It was a document

11 from the department -- the crime prevention department in which it says

12 that attached is a list of persons who had taken part in the war

13 operations against HVO in the villages of Sovici, Doljani, and others, as

14 well as their short statements.

15 Have you found that document, Witness?

16 A. You mean have I seen this statement?

17 Q. I mean have you managed to find the document and read what it says

18 at the beginning? It says that attached is a list of persons and their

19 short statements. I'd just like to draw the Court's attention to the fact

20 that these are statements referred to by my colleague Ms. Senka Nozica and

21 that in fact these two documents make up a single document.

22 Now, whether they were separated at some point -- it seems they

23 were separated at some point so they're under different numbers.

24 But, Witness, what I'm interested in, in this document, is the

25 following: It says here that 53 persons were on the run, that 85

Page 11645

1 individuals were interrogated, which makes some -- a little less than 140,

2 and you said that within the BH army composition in Sovici there were 60

3 to 70 men.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Why the difference in these numbers? Can you explain that?

6 A. I can't explain that, but if anybody else can they can go ahead.

7 They can explain how many people there were at the time and lived in the

8 village of Sovici, and then you would arrive at the proper figure.

9 Q. Right, Witness. Now, take a look at the next document that you

10 have in your set of documents, and I'd like to have on e-court documents

11 4D 00472. It is a document of the 4th Battalion in Sovici.

12 What was the unit's name, that unit of the ABiH. Was it in the

13 4th Battalion; is that right?

14 A. Yes, I do believe that it was.

15 Q. Was it the 4th Battalion of the 44th Mountain Brigade?

16 A. I assume so.

17 Q. Within the 4th Corps?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So there were no local, sporadic forces, but these were forces

20 that were part of the BH Brigade; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The list you have before you does not have a date, but it is a

23 list of the monies received and also -- or, rather, the salary paid, and

24 you have 156 people there. Now, from this list it would emerge that 156

25 individuals were on the payroll and that they received certain

Page 11646

1 remuneration as soldiers of the BH army.

2 In this column you'll see what their duties were. There are rifle

3 men, machine-gunners and so on.

4 Are the names on this list familiar to you? Were they indeed

5 inhabitants of Sovici?

6 A. As far as I can see here they were inhabitants of Doljani as well.

7 Not only Sovici but Doljani too.

8 Q. Right. Sovici and Doljani. Now, what about number 1. We have

9 the commander of the battalion there; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then we have the deputies, assistants, and so on. Do you know

12 these people?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, I'd like --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. For the

16 transcript, with respect to this document, it is the list of members of

17 the 4th Battalion of Sovici. The last two columns, or the one but last

18 column is the salaries paid. Then there's a dash. So we don't know how

19 much that was. And then we have the sixth column with the signature.

20 There are no signatures on that document. So blank for the salary paid

21 and blank for the signature.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, might I provide an

23 explanation which I seem to feel is the only logical one? The signature

24 would mean that the salary paid out had been taken over. Now, if the

25 column is empty, it means that the people weren't paid anything, so they

Page 11647

1 didn't pay for receipt of money. But this was a very important document

2 for me because of the overall number of people who were on the payroll,

3 and that corresponds precisely to what we see in the document presented by

4 Ms. Nozica in point 1, where it says the battalion commander gave us the

5 total figure, and I'll quote: "The battalion which was from Sovici

6 numbered 120 soldiers and later on to this were added Doljani. So the

7 total number was 168 soldiers, and Dzemal was in command."

8 This is a quotation from the document that was shown by my

9 colleague, P 01958.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. May I have a very short question to

11 the witness.

12 Witness, did you find your own name on this list?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't look at all the lists, but

14 if somebody finds my name, I'd like to see it. I received no money, no

15 salary from that party.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I didn't find it either, but I wanted this

17 confirmed by you. Thank you very much.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Judge Trechsel, may I just remind

19 you that the witness told us he wasn't a member of the BH army.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I know, but I didn't know that you believed him.

21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Since I didn't find his name on the

22 list, then I do.

23 Q. Witness, I'd like to talk to you now about your statement to the

24 security centre in Konjic given in 1996 that my learned colleague

25 Ms. Nozica showed you, an and it is document 2D 00285. If you would like

Page 11648

1 to take a look at it again, it is in the set of documents that Ms. Nozica

2 gave you.

3 You told us that the attack began on the 17th of April, 1993, at

4 8.00 in the morning.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then a sentence was read out from your statement, but we didn't

7 manage to discuss it. With your neighbours you started to organise the

8 defence of your homes straight away. Can you explain to us how you went

9 about doing that? How did you go about organising the defence, and what

10 did you personally do in that regard?

11 A. It was in the sense of -- well, we went outside our houses, and 50

12 to 100 metres in front of our houses, from which we had a better view of

13 all -- a better view on all sides so that we were able to see what was

14 going on and to see that somebody wasn't approaching our houses and doing

15 evil to our families. So that's the way we set about defending our

16 houses.

17 Q. So you reconnoitred?

18 A. Well, if you think reconnoitering is a defence, then that's what

19 we did.

20 Q. And what next? If you were to see the enemy approach, what would

21 you have done? What type of defence would you have undertaken?

22 A. I don't know. We were hoping that it wouldn't happen. I don't

23 know what we would have done. I never gave it any thought.

24 Q. You were in the upper Mahala.

25 A. Yes.

Page 11649

1 Q. There is also the middle Mahala and the lower Mahala in your place

2 of residence?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell me, what is approximately the distance between the upper

5 Mahala and the middle one, and on to the lower one?

6 A. Those were three Mahalas in the Sovici village, and they were all

7 close to one another and to the hamlets around, so that the middle Mahala

8 is about 100, 150 metres from Brajkovici hamlet. At least the two closest

9 houses on either side. Whereas Cilici as a hamlet were mixed Croats and

10 Muslims.

11 Q. What about the distance from the centre of the upper Mahala to the

12 centre of the middle Mahala to the centre of the lower Mahala?

13 A. It could have been 200 metres between the centres of the middle

14 Mahala and the upper Mahala, and from the middle Mahala to the lower

15 Mahala centre-to-centre it could have been a kilometre, maybe more.

16 Q. It follows from this statement you gave to the security centre in

17 Konjic that you kept watching, observing until 4.00 p.m., when the defence

18 line was broken through?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where was it broken through, in which part of Sovici?

21 A. Well, that's what I named a line, but you can call it what you

22 want. It was Mackovica and Duga Greda, those two spots. If you want to

23 know far away it was.

24 Q. Yes. How far away was it, and was it close to Gornja Mahala, that

25 is upper Mahala?

Page 11650

1 A. Well, it was about three kilometres away from upper Mahala.

2 Q. So at 4.00 in the afternoon when the defence line was broken

3 through, dusk fell, dark fell short afterwards?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what kind of visibility did you have after that? Was there

6 moonlight or any other lighting?

7 A. You know what a village can look like without electricity.

8 Q. Well, I would imagine it was pitch dark?

9 A. It could have been pitch dark, but it was a fine day that day, and

10 dark had just fallen, and it wasn't very late and you could still see

11 where you were walking.

12 Q. How did you yourself find out that the first defence line had

13 fallen?

14 A. I just noticed. There was merry-making among the Croat units, the

15 HVO units, at Duga Greda, and of course shooting had stopped. And then

16 you could see them singing and celebrating. I hope I answered your

17 question.

18 Q. That was three kilometres away?

19 A. That would be my estimate.

20 Q. Tell us, did you see any of the soldiers going into Sovici before

21 the arrival of this lady who conveyed to you the message that you should

22 gather people and go to Jablanica?

23 A. I can't possibly know who was up there, how many there were.

24 There were soldiers, and it was closer to Brajkovici hamlet. One hundred,

25 150 metres. I saw people from Brajkovici. I saw some people, but I

Page 11651

1 couldn't -- before dark fell, but I couldn't identify them.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, not to have misunderstandings.

3 Witness, were you suggesting that you could hear people singing

4 three kilometres away?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Well, you have better ears than mine, that's for

7 sure.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was possible at the time.

9 Maybe not today.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to hear your

11 position on the events that took place in Sovici and that were noted by

12 another Trial Chamber in the Naletilic case. I'm going to present to you

13 some pieces of the record, and you will tell me whether it's correct or

14 not, according to you.

15 The HVO started shelling the village early in the morning on the

16 17th of April, 1993. The firing was originating from Risovac. HVO

17 continued to shell Sovici without interruption until around 10.00 on the

18 17th of April, 1993. Artillery fire reached the upper part of Sovici and

19 hit some houses. There was return fire from the village. Dzemal Ovnovic,

20 commander of the Muslim defence, surrendered at 1700 hours or so. He had

21 between 60 and 70 men under -- 170 and 170 men under his command. They

22 partly surrendered. Others refused to lay down their arms and fled into

23 the nearby hills and woods where they went into hiding in houses, and they

24 continued to fire.

25 Now, what I just read, does -- is that consistent with your

Page 11652

1 experience with how it was on the spot?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it is consistent.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It isn't consistent. On what

4 points?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not exactly how it

6 happened, as I saw it and how I described it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What exactly does not fit? What

8 exactly does not correspond?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what discrepancies I

10 can point out. If -- you read for a long time and I got lost.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll sum up very briefly.

12 According to other people, the fighting lasted at least until 5.00 in the

13 afternoon, and the BH unit had surrendered by 5.00. Do you agree with

14 that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't. I don't.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you agree that the chief,

17 Dzemal Ovnovic, surrendered personally around 5.00?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he surrendered before that,

19 earlier.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the third point: There were

21 some men who did not surrender but who fled instead. Is that right or

22 wrong?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mrs. Alaburic, you

25 have almost used up your time. Now, finish quickly with one question.

Page 11653

1 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me inform you that

2 I just received five minutes from General Praljak's Defence.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to continue until

4 4.00, because we have been working for almost 1 hour, 45 minutes nonstop.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation].

6 Q. Let us return to the darkness that reigned on the 17th of April,

7 at 4.00. It was pitch dark. You heard and saw at a great distance some

8 soldiers. Would I be right in concluding that at that moment you

9 actually --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges are not quite -- do

11 not quite agree with the way you put your question. How come that it was

12 pitch dark at 4.00 on the 17th of April? In April it can't be. Maybe on

13 the 17th of December, but not in April.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] That is not my estimate. That's

15 what the witness answered to my question whether it was dark at the time.

16 I asked him whether there was artificial lighting --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, that's not what he said. He

18 said it was a fine day. You can ask the question again if you wish, but I

19 don't think that is necessary.

20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Tell us, Witness, at the time when the defence lines of Sovici

22 were broken through, when they fell, was it dark?

23 A. No, it was not dark.

24 Q. How come it wasn't dark as you say now, and you said something

25 different a moment ago?

Page 11654

1 A. Maybe I misspoke. Maybe I didn't understand your question. When

2 I said it was dark, I didn't mean 4.00. I meant a later hour.

3 Q. In your statement of '96, you spoke about the evening hours when

4 you were describing these events, the transportation and your surrender to

5 the HVO. You spoke about evening hours. Why then did you call it evening

6 if it was daytime still?

7 A. Because that bit, the surrendering and the rounding up of elderly

8 people, children, and women, that happened when it was already dark,

9 although I don't know what time it was exactly. But I said until 4.00

10 it -- the visibility was perfect. It was still daytime.

11 Q. Can you tell us was it day or was it already dark at the time when

12 you heard HVO soldiers celebrating their victory?

13 A. It was still daytime, daylight.

14 Q. Can you make it clearer, because there's a great difference

15 between daylight, dusk, and dark.

16 A. You could clearly see the contours, figures of people.

17 Q. Contours, figures. Do you mean that you were not able to see the

18 details of a person's appearance?

19 A. Of course. Not with the naked eye at that distance.

20 Q. Under those circumstances, were you able to see any emblems on

21 the uniforms, patches, insignia, anything on the uniforms of the HVO

22 soldiers?

23 A. From that position?

24 Q. When that was going on.

25 A. Not from that distance.

Page 11655

1 Q. Would it be right to conclude that at that moment you did not see

2 because you were unable to see anybody bearing the insignia of the

3 Croatian army?

4 A. Not at that moment, but I did see it at other moments.

5 Q. So at that distance you didn't see anything. At 4.00 there was

6 the surrender, the taking away of women and children.

7 A. It was already after 4.00. It was already dark. At any rate, it

8 was much later than 4.00.

9 Q. Then a woman comes, gives you the message that you should collect

10 women and children and take them to Jablanica. At that moment, was it

11 already dark?

12 A. It was already dark, and we could move around more freely.

13 Q. So then you collected some people and you tried to take them to

14 Jablanica, and you were stopped in middle Mahala. Can you tell us more

15 precisely how many soldiers stopped you?

16 A. I can tell you there were quite a few of them. Maybe close to 50

17 soldiers.

18 Q. How long was your encounter with those soldiers before you were

19 taken to a building?

20 A. It all happened within a few minutes while they were pushing me

21 into the basement of that house.

22 Q. At that time, did you take a closer look at the uniforms of the

23 soldiers? Did you notice anybody in particular? Did you register anybody

24 in particular because of a special detail or something?

25 A. I don't know when I noticed it, whether it was that evening or the

Page 11656

1 next day.

2 Q. Noticed what?

3 A. The insignia that you are talking about. When they were pushing

4 me inside, it was already dark and you could see from time to time when

5 the headlights of a car would light the area up, but otherwise it was dark

6 and there was no electricity.

7 Q. I understand that. I'm not going to ask you any more about that.

8 You told us that the attack at Sovici was mounted by HVO units

9 from Jablanica. Did you really mean the HVO of Jablanica, or did you mean

10 something else?

11 A. I meant all the units of Jablanica municipality that had relocated

12 several days earlier and grouped around Sovici and Doljani.

13 Q. Do you know that the total number of HVO units in Jablanica was

14 around 350 men?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Do you know that the units of the BH army at that same time in the

17 same area were 2.500 men?

18 A. That's impossible.

19 Q. That's what the man number one of the Jablanica defence said in

20 this courtroom.

21 A. That's not possible, 1 million per cent.

22 Q. Just one more question. I see the clock. You said that your wife

23 said when she was leaving around 21st or later some houses were burned.

24 A. When she left Sovici? When she left the house?

25 Q. Your wife was leaving Sovici and she saw the houses being

Page 11657

1 torched.

2 A. I think she actually said she was forcibly removed from her home.

3 She was taken out of our home and taken to the school building. It's not

4 that she was taken away from Sovici.

5 Q. It's a bit different in the statement.

6 A. It shouldn't be different. It would be a mistake.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say that you'll come back to

8 it after the break, but that all depends on whether you have any time

9 left. We'll resume in exactly 20 minutes.

10 --- Recess taken at 4.04 p.m.

11 --- Upon resuming at 4.24 p.m.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next Defence team. Ms. Alaburic

13 took 21 minutes. Yes.

14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'd like to go back to your

17 testimony of yesterday and the portion related to Andrija Groznica that

18 you mentioned in connection with the arrest and confiscation of your

19 vehicle. You remember that, I'm sure.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You told us yesterday that in your opinion he was a military

22 policeman, and that you came to that conclusion, as I interpreted what you

23 said, and I think this is what you said, on the basis of the document

24 shown to you by the Prosecution earlier on and on the basis of the fact

25 that he was wearing a camouflage uniform. Am I right? Do you remember

Page 11658

1 saying that yesterday?

2 A. Not only because of that. I heard from others that that's the

3 duty he performed.

4 Q. That he was a military policeman?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. May we have a document the Prosecution used yesterday P 02131,

7 please. It's not our bundle because it was a document used by the

8 Prosecution yesterday. P 02131 is the document number.

9 Sir, this is a document of the Jablanica police station, and it --

10 it is in fact the MUP of Jablanica. Therefore, the civilian police. And

11 the document deals with the engagement of policemen, civilian policemen,

12 in HVO units. And as a civilian policeman, a person by the name of

13 Andrija Groznica is mentioned here, and several lines later on we have the

14 surname that we heard today, Azimovic. And it was signed by the commander

15 of the police station Ivan Rogic.

16 Now, when you look at this document might you have been wrong?

17 Might you have been wrong when you said Andrija Groznica was a military

18 policeman?

19 A. I don't think I was wrong because there were two men with the name

20 Andrija Groznica.

21 Q. So it's not the person from this document?

22 A. I don't think it's the man that you're referring to here.

23 Q. Right. Not the man. Now, I'd like to go and discuss the events

24 that took place at the mechanical engineering faculty.

25 Yesterday, you said in your statement, and I'd like to go back to

Page 11659

1 when you were talking about the mistreatment of you at the faculty and

2 said that you were beat be by the military police and anybody else who was

3 able to enter the faculty building where the MUP was located. Do you

4 remember saying that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'd like to remind you now of your statement presented by the

7 Prosecutor of the 3rd of May, 1997. In English it is on page 3, third

8 paragraph. I'm saying that for Their Honours' benefit. And I'll read out

9 what you said, which is this: "The HVO soldiers took our ID cards and all

10 other particulars and took us to the basement. We came across a man there

11 who we were afraid of. After we arrived, other male Muslims were brought

12 to the cellar too. We were not given any food in the following days. We

13 had to sing. And I and the other Muslim men were beaten up badly during

14 the next two nights. They ordered us to lie down on the floor, and

15 therefore we couldn't see the soldiers."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I'd like to read out something else to you now. There was a

18 correction made to your statement, and the date of that is the 11th of

19 December, 2006, when you arrived in The Hague, and under point 7 you say

20 that: "At the MUP station in Mostar I was beaten up by members of the

21 military police with batons. The people who beat him were wearing HVO

22 military police uniforms." [As interpreted]

23 A. What kind of batons or truncheons are you referring to?

24 Q. "Flagpole," it says.

25 A. Yes.

Page 11660

1 Q. Do you see the difference? So far in the statement it says that

2 you were beaten by the military police and anybody else that managed to

3 enter the premises. Then you said that you couldn't see who beat you

4 because you were lying face down on the floor. And then we have a third

5 statement where you say that it was just the military policemen who beat

6 you.

7 Now, I'm interested in which of these three statements is the

8 right one. Which is correct?

9 A. They're all, in fact, correct, because everybody beat me. And

10 people beat me many times. I was beaten many times. Now, in most cases I

11 was not able to see who was doing the beating because we had to assume

12 positions whereby we couldn't see who was beating us, but this time when I

13 was beaten with that flagpole I wasn't lucky enough to throw myself down

14 on the floor straight away, but I was turned towards the door and I was

15 the upper-most on the floor when the policeman came in and hit me. So I

16 received the worst blows. And I saw that particular very hard beating,

17 the very hard blow, and I described that and it was a policeman. So on

18 that one occasion I saw who beat me, and that was the most serious beating

19 and strongest blow and most painful blow that I received. But I was

20 beaten many times, as I say, and many times I wasn't able to see who was

21 doing the beating because we were ordered to lie face down on the floor

22 and not allowed to look. And I did that as soon as possible so that I

23 would be the first to lie down and the other people on top of me, which

24 would protect me from being beaten. But on that particular occasion I

25 wasn't able to throw myself down on the floor quickly enough.

Page 11661

1 Q. So you're saying you saw who beat you on this one occasion.

2 A. Yes. Now, when I said that the soldiers had taken our documents

3 away from us, that's what you said.

4 Q. Yes I read that from your statement?

5 A. I probably said that, but when I refer to soldiers, I usually

6 refer to everybody in uniform as soldiers. So perhaps I didn't remember

7 that actually they were military policemen. I just said off the top of my

8 head "soldiers" because they were in uniform. But everybody who is

9 military engaged, the police or whoever, wearing a uniform I consider to

10 be soldiers. That's the general term I use to refer to all these people.

11 That might have been a mistake on my part.

12 Q. Am I right in saying that on the basis of your statement you're

13 not very well-versed with HVO units, and you don't know who belonged to

14 which unit and what kind of units there were? Am I right?

15 A. Well, how should I explain this to you? Very often I didn't dare

16 look.

17 Q. No, that's not what I meant, Witness. Not any specific -- this

18 specific case. But generally speaking, how much do you know about HVO

19 structure? How far are you able to distinguish between their patches,

20 insignia, clothes, uniforms, and so on?

21 A. Not much. I didn't dare look at them too much.

22 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next Defence team, please.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we do have a few

Page 11662

1 questions for this witness. First of all, I should like to say and I

2 think that this area was broached by my colleague and Judge Trechsel, that

3 is say that Mr. Poryvaev said yesterday that this person was a member of

4 the local defence forces, and in the summary pursuant to 65 ter it says he

5 was a member of the Territorial Defence. So for the record, I wanted to

6 say that. Thank you.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Now, I'd like to ask the witness the following:

9 In the past few days we heard that you were in Ljubuski, Mostar, and

10 Heliodrom, in the detention centres there, right?

11 A. Gabela, Capljina, in many locations.

12 Q. You said you were in Gabela for the first time today. How much

13 time did you spend in Gabela?

14 A. Seven days.

15 Q. Do you know that proceedings have been filed against you and that

16 that's why you were detained?

17 A. No. I don't know about that. All I do know is that those people

18 together with me went into hiding and that it was our luck that we

19 remembered to make a list of those people because we were being hidden.

20 We were being concealed. Other -- we know that the authorities, BH

21 authorities, were looking for us and the Red Cross was looking for us, and

22 luckily we made these lists and they found us in Gabela on the 31st of

23 December, the Red Cross did.

24 Q. Would you listen to what I'm asking you is it true that court

25 proceedings were taken against you?

Page 11663

1 A. No, I don't know about that.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to show

3 this witness a number of documents. We don't have much time but I think

4 it will be quicker if we provided hard copies to the witness for him to

5 look at. Thank you.

6 Q. First document is 6D 00216, and you'll find that on the top of

7 the document it's an order of the 28th of December, 1993. Could you see

8 that?

9 A. Yes, I can.

10 Q. Under number 4 it says Ismet Mumin Poljarevic [Realtime transcript

11 read in error "Konjevic Polje"].

12 A. Yes that's me.

13 Q. It says with criminal proceedings against prisoners of war that

14 they refer to certain individuals from Gabela. Among those people is your

15 own name; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you explain to us when it was that you left

18 Heliodrom exactly?

19 A. In what direction?

20 Q. I mean when you were finally released from Heliodrom, when you

21 went to Jablanica. So how long were you in Heliodrom for?

22 A. The 1st of May, until the 1st of May.

23 THE INTERPRETER: March, until the 1st of March, Interpreter's

24 correction.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Line 7 -- page 7, line 1 it

Page 11664

1 should say Poljarevic and not Konjevic Polje. I'm saying this for the

2 record.

3 Q. You said you left Heliodrom on the 1st of March, 1994; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know that at that point in time they pressed charges

7 against you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could the witness now be shown another document that was

10 introduced through Witness 181 who was on the list of Prosecution

11 witnesses, P 07985. It's the second document in this series. 7985 is the

12 number, P 07985.

13 Have you found it?

14 A. It says the military prosecutor's office of Mostar.

15 Q. That's right. And it also says that criminal reports were filed

16 for crimes committed by certain individuals, and it says pursuant to

17 article so-and-so. Would you now take a look at page 3 and number 90

18 there. Number 90 on the list on page 3. Ismet Mumin Poljarevic. That's

19 you.

20 A. What page? Page 3?

21 Q. Page 3, number 90.

22 A. I don't have number 90 on page 3.

23 Q. Then it's page 2. Look at the numbers. You'll find your way

24 easier that way.

25 A. Yes, I can see that.

Page 11665

1 Q. Is that your name?

2 A. Yes, that is my name.

3 Q. Can you see that the military prosecutor's office, regardless of

4 the charges against you, allowed the exchange; right?

5 Now, let's have a look at the last page of the document. We have

6 a stamp there. It's not very clear but there's a stamp nonetheless, and a

7 signature. Can you read the word above the signature? What does that

8 say? What does that word say in B/C/S?

9 A. You mean Jablanica, the printed word?

10 Q. No, page 3, next to the stamp and signature. What does it say in

11 handwriting there? Does it say "pregledao," reviewed?

12 A. Yes. It says reviewed, and then there's a signature.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I asked this question,

14 Mr. President, when Witness 181 testified, and the -- it's on the

15 transcript number. If counsel can repeat the number. In English it says

16 that it was sent to, delivered to, but in B/C/S "pregledao" means

17 reviewed. And the witness has just affirmed that that is what it says,

18 reviewed by. And the page of the transcript was 10315.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not following. What do you mean

20 reviewed not reviewed?

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation].

22 Q. You've just told us that the word there is "pregledao" meaning

23 reviewed?

24 A. Yes that's right.

25 Q. The rest of my explanations were given for Their Honours'

Page 11666

1 benefit. May we now go back to document 7183. You've already seen that

2 document?

3 A. 7183 you say?

4 Q. Yes. It is a list of persons who are to be isolated.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You recognise some of the names on this document. I'm just making

7 that observation. You've said that you recognise some of the names on

8 this list.

9 A. Well, if I said I recognise them then I did. You tell me the

10 people and I'll tell it you whether I recognise them.

11 Q. It is 7183, the number of the document. 7183 for the record.

12 Since the Prosecutor didn't provide us with an explanation, look at the

13 first column where it says RB. You see that RB?

14 A. What number.

15 Q. Well, begin with the first one 375, 189, 317, the RB column and

16 the first numbers?

17 A. Yes. And what do you what happened me to tell me you about them.

18 I don't know these people here.

19 Q. So you don't know what these numbers denote, what they mean?

20 A. No I don't know what they mean.

21 Q. Then let's take a look at P 7131, the next document please.

22 A. What's the number?

23 Q. 7131. P 7131. It is dated the 12th of December, 1993. And on

24 this document, if you take a look at it and if we have time, you'll find

25 the same names that are on the other document, 7183, dated the 15th of

Page 11667

1 December.

2 A. I don't know who all these people are. Are they all the same or

3 what? I don't know what all these names are.

4 Q. Well, let's look at number 2 on the list, Mustafa Copelj?

5 A. Yes, and what do you want with that.

6 Q. Do you recognise the person?

7 A. No. I don't know him.

8 Q. Now look at the earlier document that you took a look at, 7183.

9 Page 2, number 2. We find this same name, Mustafa Copelj.

10 A. What number?

11 Q. Page 2.

12 A. I don't seem to have that page. What number 2?

13 Q. It's number 2. It says Mustafa Copelj. Alija is his father's

14 name. This document, P 7813, was compiled with an A, B, C order, with the

15 names in A, B, C order. But other documents were used, of the 12th of

16 December, for example, that document was used to compile this A, B, C

17 list.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: With your permission, and it's short.

19 Witness, on the list 7183, which is alphabetical, do you find your

20 own name? It's rather easy so the list is in alphabetical order. So you

21 probably have to go to page 6.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance to the

23 witness. The witness didn't find himself on that list but he recognised

24 Poljarevic Zijo.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Son of Mustafa.

Page 11668

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] So we have number 135 on this

2 list.

3 Your Honour, I just wanted to say that 7183 is in alphabetical

4 order but the data was used from 7131. And the people are the same.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. I just wanted it on the record that this --

6 these are lists where the witness himself does not figure. That was

7 just ...

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. I have one more question. You said that after Heliodrom you went

10 to Jablanica.

11 A. Yes, on the 1st of March, 1994.

12 Q. When my learned friend asked you that, you said that some people

13 chose to go to third countries.

14 A. That was in December.

15 Q. You chose to go to Jablanica, and you were allowed to do as you

16 wished?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have

19 no further questions.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see that all the counsel have

21 finished.

22 Is there any redirect?

23 MR. PORYVAEV: No thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 Sir, this concludes your testimony. I thank you for coming and by

Page 11669

1 contributing to -- with your answers to our efforts to establish the

2 truth. I wish you a safe trip to your country, and I will ask now the

3 usher to escort you out of the courtroom and to bring in the last witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have tried my best to

5 be as truthful, as precise as I could, and I would never wish to say

6 anything wrong or to do any harm to anyone. Thank you again. I did my

7 very best.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe it's Mr. Kruger and

10 Mr. Mundis who I welcome now. As Mr. Scott just said, the last witness

11 will take two hours all in all, which means that you are not -- two and a

12 half hours all in all, which means you are not going to finish today. You

13 will, therefore, continue tomorrow. And you must do your best to focus on

14 the essential points.

15 MR. KRUGER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

16 everybody in the courtroom. Thank you, Your Honour, for that.

17 If I may just mention one aspect. Mr. Scott had previously

18 indicated that he was under the impression that the time on the 65 ter

19 indication was four hours. I had actually given him the wrong estimate.

20 We had thought it would take four hours, but it is indeed a lower estimate

21 that we had from there. But, Your Honour, thank you. The two and a half

22 hours will be sufficient, and I suspect we may even come away in a shorter

23 period, and I have taken on board Your Honour's comments. Thank you.

24 [The witness enters court]


Page 11670

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Welcome, Witness. I want to check first of all that you hear the

4 proceedings in the language you understand and that you hear us well.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear you perfectly.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were called by the

7 Prosecution as a witness. Before you give the solemn declaration, give me

8 your first name, last name, and date of birth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sejfo Kajmovic, 22nd November,

10 1951.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

12 occupation?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm working in the administration of

14 the madjlis Islamic community as a secretary.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified as a

16 witness, appeared as a witness before a national or international court

17 concerning events that took place in your country between 1991 and 1995,

18 or is this the first time?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, please read the solemn

21 declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.

25 Witness, just a few explanations. You will now be answering

Page 11671

1 questions first by the Prosecution with whom you met yesterday and the day

2 before yesterday, maybe, during proofing. The Prosecution may also show

3 you some documents to elicit your observations. The overall time of your

4 testimony is scheduled to be two and a half hours, but it may take less

5 than that.

6 Defence counsel are sitting on your left. They will be

7 questioning you as well, and perhaps even the accused who are also on your

8 left, further behind. And the Judges who are in front of you will also

9 ask you for any clarifications that may be required from you following up

10 the questions asked, and we may ask our own questions.

11 If you have any problem, please let us know. And try to be

12 precise in your answers, because your answers and the documents introduced

13 through your testimony will matter to us when we deliberate, and we have

14 to judge on the whole of the evidence, including the evidence presented by

15 the Defence.

16 In due course we will take a break of 20 minutes and continue

17 until 7.00 p.m. We will continue thereafter tomorrow at 2.15 and work

18 until 7.00 p.m. tomorrow.

19 This is how these proceedings work. And I will now give the floor

20 to the Prosecution who will proceed with direct examination.

21 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, the break, will

22 we be taking that at approximately a quarter to 6.00?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you wish. We can take the

24 break at a quarter to a quarter to 6.00, at your convenience. It's not a

25 problem for me.

Page 11672

1 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Examination by Mr. Kruger:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Sir, is it correct that until July 1993

4 you were living in Domanovici in the municipality of Capljina?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And more specifically, in Recice, where you were the imam?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, is it correct that you are and at that stage you also were

9 married and you had three daughters?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At that stage, your daughter's ages were 17, 14, and 8

12 respectively?

13 A. A little less.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The witness is barely

15 audible. He's too far from the microphone.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The eldest was in the second year of

17 secondary school, the younger one was in primary school, 6th grade, and

18 the very youngest had not started school yet.


20 Q. Thank you. Since when had you been -- or from since when had you

21 been the imam in Recice?

22 A. From summer 1975.

23 Q. Had you at that stage ever been a member of any military

24 organisation or in any army?

25 A. No, apart from the JNA.

Page 11673

1 Q. Okay. Now, just very briefly for the background of -- or for the

2 information of the Judges. Until April 1993, is it correct that you were

3 also a member of the meshihat for Bosnia?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You explained it to me extensively yesterday. If I could sum it

6 up, if you could tell me if this is perhaps accurate, just for the

7 information of the Court, that the meshihat of Bosnia was an elected

8 governing body for religious matters of the Islamic community in Bosnia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And just to perhaps complete this very brief description, would

11 that be the second level of the overall organisation of the Islamic

12 community which existed at that stage in all the territories comprising

13 the former Yugoslavia?

14 A. Yes. That was the meshihat, the executive body of the Islamic

15 community at the level of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you perhaps move just a little bit

17 closer to the microphone so that we're sure that your voice is being

18 picked up. Thank you very much.

19 The -- this organisational structure which you have just

20 described, did that collapse in 1993 or cease to exist in 1993?

21 A. Yes. With the break-up of the federal state, the SFRY, all the

22 authorities at the level of the common state also dissolved and

23 transformed later into different authorities. Yes. The answer is yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, during the -- during 1992, when the

25 conflict with the Serbs was ongoing in the area where you lived, is it

Page 11674

1 correct that you left Domanovici for a short period?

2 A. Not then. Forty days after the beginning of the conflict I

3 weren't briefly to Brac where my family was.

4 Q. And upon your return, could you tell the Court briefly what the

5 state of your mosque and your house in Recice were?

6 A. They were both in relatively good condition. They were not

7 devastated.

8 Q. Did you notice any other destruction in your area on your

9 return?

10 A. Yes. A lot of the houses were already burned down.

11 Q. And which houses were these?

12 A. Mainly Serb houses. They had already been burned down.

13 Q. Now, after your return were you joined at some stage by other

14 members of your family who came to live with you?

15 A. Yes, a little bit later.

16 Q. They were refugees from the area where they had come from,

17 Kalinovik?

18 A. Yes, yes. Members of my extended family if I can put it that way.

19 My immediate family was at the isle of Brac after the outbreak of the

20 conflict. My parents came, my brother with his child, my in-laws, and

21 some other close relatives.

22 Q. Were any members of this extended family of yours who became

23 members of the military during that time or during 1993?

24 A. No, none of them.

25 Q. Now, Witness, if we can turn briefly to a different topic. During

Page 11675

1 1993, is it correct that you were involved with -- with the humanitarian

2 organisation Merhamet?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. In what capacity were you involved?

5 A. I was a member of that body and I was in charge of supplies,

6 procurement.

7 Q. What -- very briefly, what was the main goal of Merhamet during

8 1993?

9 A. The main goal was to procure food, mainly flour for the refugees,

10 and not only refugees but also the local population who had by that time

11 been impoverished.

12 Q. The focus of Merhamet, was it a specific ethnic group?

13 A. Yes. Yes. It's mainly the Bosniak population, because the Croats

14 were supplied by Caritas, and we, both of us, got most of the supplies

15 from UNHCR. We also took care of a couple of Serb families that had not

16 moved out.

17 Q. Okay. Apart from supplying food did -- was any form of medical

18 services supplied or supported by Merhamet?

19 A. Yes. We had a clinic in Capljina where professional doctors and

20 nurses worked, and we had a pharmacy attached with quite a good choice of

21 medication, at least under the circumstances.

22 Q. The clinic and the pharmacy, did they only provide services to

23 Bosniaks or also to others?

24 A. To everybody, everybody who addressed themselves to us.

25 Q. Now, Witness, if we can move to a further topic. In 1993, the

Page 11676

1 Court has heard of tensions rising between the Bosnian Croats and the

2 Bosniaks, also in your area. Could you tell us in this regard about what

3 you know about what occurred at the Capljina high school?

4 A. In that high school in Capljina, there was a spontaneous rebellion

5 of Bosniak students, because the emblems and iconography of Herceg-Bosna

6 were displayed. And because the Croat language was introduced in what I

7 would call an aggressive way.

8 Q. And was this in -- were these introduced as the only symbols or

9 were they -- and language, or were they introduced parallel to existing

10 symbols and language in use in the school?

11 A. No. Everything else was eliminated.

12 Q. Now, sir, the -- what effect, if any, did the October 1992 and

13 January 1993 conflicts in Prozor and Gornji Vakuf have on you and other

14 Bosniaks living in your area?

15 A. Well, that had repercussions on our area where I lived, Capljina,

16 because tensions grew and there was more mistrust.

17 Q. In the first half of 1993 what media were you able to receive in

18 your area, television and then written media?

19 A. I think we could watch Television Sarajevo and two Croatian

20 channels, I believe, the first and the second programme.

21 Q. Before turning to the written media, by July 1993, were all these

22 channels still available, to your knowledge?

23 A. These two channels were still available. I'm not sure about the

24 BH channel, because the repeater was destroyed then. I don't know how

25 long we were able to watch them.

Page 11677

1 Q. You say these two channels. Are you referring to the two Croatian

2 channels?

3 A. Yes, the Croatian channels. We had better reception from them.

4 Q. And what about the written media, newspapers and magazines,

5 topical magazines? What was available to you and your community or area

6 in the first half of 1993?

7 A. Newspapers and magazines from Croatia, some local press, and the

8 others were physically unable to be delivered because of the situation on

9 the roads towards Sarajevo.

10 Q. Was this different -- a different situation than what had existed

11 previously?

12 A. Yes. The tensions had an effect, and the situation certainly

13 deteriorated.

14 Q. Sorry. What I mean -- I wasn't clear. My apology. Regarding

15 media, the availability of media that you have just described, was there

16 prior to this period in 1993, was there a wider variety available at any

17 stage?

18 A. I wouldn't say that we had many more before. The delivery of

19 newspapers and magazines was already very difficult.

20 Q. Okay. Sir, I'd like to turn to the presence of the HVO in the

21 area where you lived during 1993.

22 Now, in Domanovici after the -- the Serb occupation had been

23 terminated, did the HVO establish a presence in Domanovici?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And where did they establish this?

Page 11678

1 A. At the entrance to Domanovici. In fact, there was a mental

2 hospital there, and that was used -- that building was used as a

3 barracks.

4 Q. The -- if you say the entrance to Domanovici, would -- from which

5 direction would that have been the entrance?

6 A. Looking from Capljina on the left-hand side as you enter

7 Domanovici.

8 Q. Do you know which HVO unit was at this location?

9 A. I think there were some outfits, some units of that Prince Domagoj

10 unit from Capljina, because it was their responsibility.

11 Q. Could I ask you, the Prince Domagoj unit, is that to your

12 knowledge the same as the Knez Domagoj unit?

13 A. Maybe I'm wrong about the name, but I know exactly which unit that

14 was stationed in the Grabovina barracks.

15 Q. Do you know who the commander of this unit was?

16 A. Yes. I knew it was Colonel Obradovic.

17 Q. Now, Witness, apart from -- from the barracks which was

18 established in the psychiatric -- old psychiatric hospital, was there at

19 any stage or did any other -- or was any other location used by the HVO in

20 Domanovici?

21 A. Yes. For a while they used the building of the primary school,

22 but that was later, just before the conflict, the expulsions.

23 Q. So by the end of June 1993, were both of these locations which you

24 have mentioned occupied by or used by the HVO?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11679

1 Q. Now, Witness, the second location you've mentioned in the primary

2 school, did the presence of the HVO at that location cause any problems in

3 any way or disturbance for the local inhabitants?

4 A. Yes. I think their presence caused great fear and concern,

5 because that's the way they acted, in an intimidating way, and their very

6 appearance was intimidating. They were wearing black uniforms, and they

7 looked frightening.

8 Q. Could you describe any specific actions which intimidated or which

9 you felt were intimidating?

10 A. Yes. Until late at night there would be Ustasha songs sung and

11 broadcast over the PA system, and that was certainly a great disturbance

12 to all of us.

13 Q. When you say across or over the PA system, was this an internal PA

14 system or an external PA system?

15 A. It must have been external as well, because we could hear it very

16 well outside of that location.

17 Q. Could you hear this from your own house?

18 A. Yes. Yes. You could hear it even further away, a lot further.

19 Q. How far is your house away from -- from this location where the

20 primary school was?

21 A. My school? If you mean my mekteb, it was close to the mosque and

22 close to my house. So it was about a kilometre away. Next to the road

23 towards Stolac, on the left-hand side.

24 Q. If we can move to April, 1993, specifically, Witness, what do you

25 know about the arrest of Bosniak males from the period of April onwards?

Page 11680

1 What did you experience yourself or see?

2 A. I know when the arrests started and when people, Bosniak

3 intellectuals were selectively incarcerated. Many of my friends were

4 incarcerated at that time. I was kept abreast of the situation. I knew

5 what it was about. It all instilled fear in us. Each one of us expected

6 to be arrested, and there was general uncertainty. So that was what the

7 situation was like. You could have -- great psychological pressure was

8 being exerted.

9 Q. Do you at any stage visit or try to visit any of the people who

10 were incarcerated?

11 A. Yes. I did my best, and I managed to visit them for the Bajram

12 holiday. Beginning of June 1993, I visited them. I went to see them in

13 the barracks in Grabovina.

14 Q. How was -- before doing that did you go alone or were you

15 accompanied by others?

16 A. Three of my friends went along with me from my parish or dzemat.

17 Q. How were you clothed on this occasion?

18 A. I had black clothing. We call it dzubba. It was the official

19 type of clothing, and I had the official type of cap on my head with the

20 white - what shall I say? - white band around it.

21 Q. How had this visit been arranged?

22 A. Could you repeat that question, please?

23 Q. How had the visit been arranged?

24 A. Well, we managed to collect some food since it was Bajram. There

25 were a lot of cakes, sweets, cigars, juices. We organised it.

Page 11681

1 Q. Do you know how permission was obtained or how this was

2 coordinated with the authorities at the Grabovina barracks?

3 A. I think it was authorised by the colonel, the commander,

4 Obradovic. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to do it.

5 Q. What did you find? How did this visit go when you got there?

6 A. Well, first of all, from my perspective it was a risk. It was

7 risky business. We weren't quite sure what would happen. We thought we

8 would be sent back. And there was increased tension at the time because

9 of the conflicts in Prozor and Gornji Vakuf. So that was an additional

10 aggravating situation. But we succeeded, and we managed to pay them a

11 visit.

12 Q. Did you see any of the officials involved in the detention?

13 A. Yes. In front of the building where these intellectuals had been

14 detained Bosko Previsic, who I think was the commander of - what should I

15 call it? - a prison, came.

16 Q. Now, Bosko Previsic, did you know Bosko Previsic at that stage or

17 who he was?

18 A. Well, no. I didn't have any contact with him. He was a waiter by

19 profession, so quite possibly might have seen him around but, no, we

20 didn't have any communication. I didn't know him.

21 Q. Did you come across him again later that year?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where?

24 A. In Gabela camp.

25 Q. Thank you. We'll get to that. Now, Witness, on that day, early

Page 11682

1 in June when you visited the intellectuals at Grabovina barracks, what

2 was -- what was the reaction or what did Boko Previsic do on that day?

3 A. He was there when we arrived. There wasn't any physical abuse.

4 Well, he was a little insulting and delivered a lecture to us, but he

5 gave us 10 minutes to visit. We couldn't do much in 10 minutes, but

6 there were detainees up on the floor above and down below, so we went

7 upstairs, too.

8 Q. Now, if we can move from there to the 30th of June of 1993. And

9 on that day, can you tell the Court, when you were coming from Split with

10 a Merhamet convoy, what happened?

11 A. Yes. We were coming back from Split with the Merhamet convoy, and

12 at the border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, in Doljani, we were

13 arrested. The truck was seized and -- the trucks were seized and the

14 drivers were arrested, and our car was confiscated and we were taken to

15 Dretelj. The four of us who were in the car.

16 Q. Now, who were the four of you who were in the car?

17 A. There was myself, then the main Capljina imam, Hasan Palic, the

18 president of Merhamet, Hadji Alija Suta, and Zlatar Buzaljko, who went to

19 procure some medicines for the chemist of the -- Merhamet, of which he was

20 the head.

21 Q. Now, how many trucks were in this convoy?

22 A. I think five trucks. Fifty tonnes of goods we were carrying.

23 Q. What were the goods on the trucks?

24 A. Mostly flour, some medicines. I don't know that there was

25 anything else, but mostly flour.

Page 11683

1 Q. Was the convoy in possession of documentation authorising the

2 transport of these goods?

3 A. Yes. Our documents were in order when we left Capljina and when

4 the goods were loaded up and, upon our return, all the documents were in

5 order.

6 Q. If you say the documents were in order when you left Capljina, by

7 whom had these documents been issued, or by what authority?

8 A. Yes, the authority responsible for that kind of thing. Mr.

9 Dzevanica. He signed it, and he would issue permits of that kind or

10 authorisation. Or some of his colleagues. But the authority in charge of

11 travel and so on.

12 Q. And was there any letterhead on -- used for this documentation?

13 A. I think it was the usual type of letterhead. I didn't look at the

14 papers because the president of the Merhamet went there. So it was the

15 standard type of Herceg-Bosna letterhead.

16 Q. So Mr. Zevanica or Dzevanica, was he an official of the Croatian

17 Community of Herceg-Bosna, as far as you know?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Now, sir, you -- had you seen when the goods were loaded on

20 this -- on the trucks for this convoy?

21 A. Yes. In the warehouse. The procedure was the same. No separate

22 procedure, just like the type of procedure applied when any goods are

23 being loaded up.

24 Q. Just for the record, were there any weapons or ammunition being

25 transported on these trucks?

Page 11684

1 A. No, no. Certainly not.

2 Q. Okay. Now, you were taken to Dretelj. Do you know what happened

3 to the trucks, the freight on the trucks and on your car? Were any of

4 these everybody returned to your knowledge?

5 A. No. No, never.

6 Q. Now, upon arrival in Dretelj, at what time did you arrive in

7 Dretelj approximately on the 30th of June, 1993?

8 A. Towards evening. If we take it that it was a summer's day, after

9 8.00.

10 Q. And on arrival at Dretelj was it only your group that arrived

11 there or were there other people also arriving or present?

12 A. I really didn't see anybody.

13 Q. Who took you to Dretelj?

14 A. The police, the military police.

15 Q. And from which organisation?

16 A. The HVO, of course.

17 Q. Now, sir, at Dretelj how long did you personally stay there?

18 A. Until about midnight.

19 Q. In that period that you stayed there, what did you see or what

20 was -- what did you experience?

21 A. Since we were there at the entrance itself right up against the

22 gates, there wasn't much I could see, but we were verbally abused by

23 drunken or tipsy soldiers, but not any physical abuse.

24 Q. These drunken or tipsy soldiers, from which army were they?

25 A. HVO. It was the HVO barracks.

Page 11685

1 Q. Now, Witness, is it correct that you and imam Hasan Palic were

2 then released and taken home by the HVO to your respective homes?

3 A. Yes, sometime after midnight they took me away in a police car to

4 Domanovici, and then he was taken to Capljina.

5 Q. Now, from that period on the Court has heard that Bosniak males

6 were being arrested. Did you see or witness or experience any of this in

7 your area or know of it?

8 A. Yes. Already from that time the arrests became more intensive,

9 the arrests of Bosniaks, that is. It was done on a more massive scale.

10 Q. And how did that affect you personally? What was your reaction to

11 this arrest taking place?

12 A. Well, I was frightened, of course, for myself, but even more so

13 for my family and for the parishioners. And you never knew when they

14 would come and take away someone close to you without any explanation,

15 without any intimation. They would just come and take them off to

16 Dretelj.

17 Q. Now, Witness, if I can now turn or jump to the 13th of July, and

18 could you tell the Court what you experienced on the morning of the 13th

19 of July, 1993.

20 A. On the 13th of July in the morning very early on we were woken up

21 by some shooting. My family and I woke up. We got up. We saw that

22 something was going on. We were frightened, of course, because we didn't

23 know what it was all about. But quite obviously there was some armed

24 conflict going on because you could see the traces of it already. There

25 was fighting at Satorova Glavica, and some of the bushes and trees were on

Page 11686

1 fire up there, so quite obviously there was a conflict. We didn't know

2 what it was all about, but we realised soon enough and knew that we had to

3 do something to leave that place, to evacuate ourselves.

4 Q. Thank you. Your Honours, at this stage I would like to go through

5 the witness's evidence with the assistance of a map which would help to

6 orientate the Court, but as the map may be up on the screen and the

7 witness may be marking it in a period of about 15 minutes, this is perhaps

8 the best time to -- to break.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 We're going to take a break now, then. It's almost 5.35, so we

11 reconvene in 20 minutes' time.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger.


16 Q. Now, Witness, before having a look at a map, you mentioned that

17 there was some kind of armed conflict going on or some fighting going on.

18 Did you know at that stage or do you have any idea between whom this

19 fighting was going on?

20 A. Of course. I didn't know the persons, but I knew there was a

21 conflict between Bosniaks. I don't know in which form they were

22 organised, but it was a conflict between Bosniaks and the HVO. There

23 could be no other conflict.

24 Q. Now, if I could request the usher to put Exhibit 09789 on the

25 e-court.

Page 11687

1 Sir, I'm going to show you a map now. It's a very rough map of

2 Capljina. It's the one I showed you yesterday as well.

3 Thank you. And if we could zoom in on the -- that's right. Thank

4 you.

5 Now, Witness, we have zoomed in on the map. Do you recognise that

6 as a part that we had a look at yesterday, part of the larger map?

7 A. Yes. Yes. I know that area well.

8 Q. Now, Witness, the -- I'm going to ask you to mark a few places in

9 the course of your testimony as we progress through it, and I'm going to

10 ask you to mark those places or locations on the screen. The very first

11 thing I want you to do is if you could mark with an X the approximate

12 location of your house and mosque.

13 A. Around here. A kilometre away from the intersection towards

14 Radovanovici on the way to Stolac.

15 Q. That intersection that you refer to, is that also where the HVO

16 barracks was, in the psychiatric hospital or the old psychiatric

17 hospital?

18 A. The barracks is at the entirely different end of Domanovici. You

19 had to pass Domanovici and go on and then the barracks remains behind you

20 towards the entrance.

21 Q. Now, could you mark the entrance which you refer to where -- where

22 that barracks was. And if you could mark it with a circle?

23 A. So this is the exit from Domanovici towards Capljina. It's around

24 here, from the main road towards Capljina.

25 Q. And the crossroads, is that a located at the star which appears

Page 11688

1 just to the right of that circle you've just made?

2 A. This little star, yes. That's the intersection.

3 Q. Now, Witness, before moving on, in your religious community did

4 you know Hasan Hasic?

5 A. Yes, I knew him well, for many years.

6 Q. Could you mark --

7 A. From our very arrival there, 18 and a half years.

8 Q. Could you mark with a number 1 the approximate location of his

9 house?

10 A. From the intersection at Domanovici, if you go -- if you follow

11 the road towards Mostar, after about 200 metres [as interpreted] there is

12 a village road leading to a Mahala called Glavica, and his house is the

13 second one from the road on the left. That's Hasan's house.

14 Q. Could you make a number 1 at that cross so that we can distinguish

15 that.

16 A. Sorry. Sorry.

17 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you could see fighting in the area of

18 Satorova Glavica. Could you mark with the number 2 the approximate

19 location of Satorova Glavica?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It's wrong in the record.

22 It's not 200 kilometres. It's 200 metres.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. It's metres.

24 MR. KRUGER: Thank you to Mr. Praljak.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, we'll return to this map in a few

Page 11689

1 moments. You mentioned earlier, just before the break, that you knew you

2 had to do something to leave that place, to evacuate yourselves. So what

3 did you and your family do when you heard the fighting that morning?

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Kruger, but you

5 yourself have interrupted yourself. The witness was about to show us

6 where - what was the name? - Satorova Glavica was and you were

7 interrupted. Maybe you want to go back to that.

8 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I see that a number 2 is marked.

9 Q. Just for the record, Witness, I see that you have marked the

10 number 2 on your screen. Is that the location of Satorova Glavica?

11 A. Yes, yes. That's Satorova Glavica.

12 Q. Now, Witness, where did you and your family go when you heard the

13 fighting on that morning?

14 A. To the opposite side from the direction where the shooting was

15 coming from, across the road and to the south, south-east. Towards --

16 yes, you could say south-east.

17 Q. And was -- was this a forest that you went to essentially?

18 A. Yes. Just across the road.

19 Q. Now, could you mark on this map with a line -- sorry. Could you

20 mark with a line the approximate location of the forest where you went.

21 A. Well, that's the woods. From the road to this side where we went

22 it's approximately here. It takes up part of Oplicici village and part of

23 the river, the riverlet. It's not really a traditional forest. There are

24 many orchard, vineyards, peach orchards, et cetera, but there's a lot of

25 woods.

Page 11690

1 Q. Could you mark that line, somewhere on the line, just with a

2 number 3 so that we can distinguish it.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, is it correct that close to your house

5 there was a hill called Podkosa or Potkosa? Could --

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Could you mark that -- could you mark that as well. My

8 apologies.

9 A. Here. Approximately towards the turn towards Lokva, in this

10 area.

11 Q. And that is a number 4 that you've put there for us.

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Now, Witness, in -- in this area where you stayed this --

14 this -- if we could describe it as a forest, how long did you stay in this

15 area?

16 A. I stayed there -- not in the woods. We were in the woods

17 towards -- during the day, but we slept in the Mahala. We spent two

18 nights in Oplicici, in the neighbouring village. So from the 13th to the

19 17th, on the day when I was arrested.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, I don't know whether it was interpreted, but I

21 heard you mention the name Cuckovina. Did I hear incorrectly?

22 A. Yes. Cuckovina is a hamlet in my parish, in my dzemat in Oplicici

23 village, and it's to the south-east of my house and my mosque.

24 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you mark the area of Cuckovina with a

25 number 6, please.

Page 11691

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Thank you. Now, if you could mark one more location on this, and

3 that is if you could mark the approximate location of the mosque in

4 Aladinici, while we're busy with the map. And mark that with a 5, please.

5 We haven't used 5.

6 A. Around here.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, if we could capture -- sorry.

9 Q. Witness, if you could make your initial at the bottom of the map

10 in the right-hand corner. If you could put SK.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kruger, for the record, the

12 registrar tells me it's P 09276. In fact, there are two numbers for this

13 same map.

14 MR. KRUGER: Yes. The case manager has just informed me on that,

15 Your Honour. I think I was working on the other one. Is the -- is the

16 previous one already admitted?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to give it an IC

18 number, and that's going to deal with the problem. Please, an IC number

19 registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number IC 177, Your Honours.

21 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could keep the map up

22 on the screen for -- it will help in understanding the following testimony

23 of the witness.

24 Q. Sir, now, the fighting that you heard --

25 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I see that the --

Page 11692

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petkovic?

2 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to

3 help the witness make a correction. Under number 5 it's not the road to

4 Aladinici. You got it wrong. The road to Aladinici goes to the right,

5 and we are talking about the mosque.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right. It's on the road

7 towards Stolac. You're right. Thank you.


9 Q. Witness, did you have any comment to make or -- as a result of

10 that?

11 A. Aladinici are on the road towards Stolac. So the suggestion is

12 absolutely correct and justified.

13 Q. Did you wish to make any correction, then, to the diagrams that

14 you have indicated, or is that not necessary?

15 A. Yes, yes. It's very important. Yes, it's very important.

16 Q. What correction did you wish to make?

17 A. It's easy to mark it, Aladinici, the location on the road towards

18 Stolac.

19 Q. I see. So that number 5 that you have indicated, did you wish

20 to -- to relocate that, that mark?

21 A. Yes, yes, yes.

22 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, with the assistance of the usher.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's around three kilometres from

24 the intersection towards Lokva. That's where Aladinici is. The mosque is

25 on the left of the road, right on the road.

Page 11693


2 Q. Could you then scratch out the -- or eliminate the first number 5

3 that you've made.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The legal officer tells me that

7 we should have given it another number with this modification.

8 So for this revised map, what is going to be the number?

9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number IC 178, Your Honours.

10 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Thank you, Mr. Petkovic for that.

12 Q. So, Witness, in the period -- sorry. To return to my old

13 question, the fighting that you heard on the morning of the 13th of July,

14 1993, did that continue or did that stop or die down at some stage?

15 A. Yes, at some point. In fact, I probably didn't even hear the real

16 shooting, but later it quieted down and turned into sporadic fire, three

17 and four hours later.

18 Q. Could you see from where you were any troops in the area or the

19 movement of any troops, soldiers?

20 A. Yes, I could.

21 Q. Which soldiers or what soldiers?

22 A. I was able to see the movement of troops on that road towards

23 Stolac, towards Lokva. That part of the road was visible.

24 Q. And what troops could you see on that road, if you could identify

25 them?

Page 11694

1 A. Yes. It was HVO troops. At least that's what I thought then.

2 Q. Now, in your mind on that day and then in the following few days

3 that you were in that area, did you have any idea which army controlled

4 the area surrounding where you were?

5 A. Yes. It was obvious that the HVO took control of that entire area

6 and was holding it.

7 Q. Now, Witness, if we can move to the question of mosques in the

8 area. Could you from that area see any part of your mosque?

9 A. From my position I could not see all of my mosque. I could maybe

10 see the -- the upper half of the minaret. I would have had to come

11 closer, and that was quite risky.

12 Q. And did you observe anything with regard to your mosque in the

13 period that you were in this forest?

14 A. I only saw the smoke when it was set on fire.

15 Q. When was this?

16 A. I really didn't keep a diary. I could get the date wrong easily,

17 but all that I'm talking about happened between the 13th and the 17th, the

18 four days that I was there. It could have been the next day. So the 14th

19 of July.

20 Q. Subsequent to seeing smoke at your mosque, did you have the

21 occasion during that period, those four days, to actually see your mosque

22 and your house?

23 A. Yes. The next day I was in a better position to see it, because

24 already the next day it was possible to see better. The HVO was

25 concentrated along that line. And my father went there that same evening,

Page 11695

1 and when he came back he what had happened. In fact, we didn't even know

2 that he had left us.

3 Q. And what did your father tell you?

4 A. Well, that the mosque had been set on fire, that our house had

5 burnt down. We used to have one cow. We didn't have time to untie it,

6 and anyway, we thought it was not going to last. So unfortunately the

7 house -- the cow burned too. It was in a makeshift shed behind the house.

8 It was actually a garage that we had turned into a shed.

9 Q. After your father had told you this, did you with your own eyes

10 have an occasion or chance to see your house and mosque?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I did see it with my own eyes.

12 Q. What did you see?

13 A. The ashes, the ruins, that everything was burned down as he had

14 said. Of course I didn't go there, but I came close enough to see it.

15 Q. From the forest could you see any other mosques in the area or in

16 the region?

17 A. Yes. I saw two mosques in Lokva and in Aladinici. I could see

18 them the best.

19 Q. And did you observe anything with regard to these two mosques?

20 A. Yes. I saw them burn. They were set on fire.

21 Q. In relation to your own mosque in Recice, could you give the Court

22 an indication whether it was the same day or later?

23 A. I think it was the next day, in the evening. That's when I saw

24 flames.

25 Q. When you saw these flames were both of these mosques alight at the

Page 11696

1 same time or at different times?

2 A. They burned at the same time. I saw them burning. I don't know

3 when they were set on fire, but they were burning simultaneously.

4 Q. And at the time when they were burning, around that time was there

5 still fighting in the area of those mosques that you observed or heard?

6 A. No, there was no more fighting.

7 Q. At that stage, according to your observations, who was in control

8 of the areas where these mosques were situated?

9 A. HVO, without a doubt.

10 Q. Now, sir, in this area where you were -- where you and your family

11 had taken refuge, were other people also hiding in this area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who were these people who were also hiding there?

14 A. Well, mainly from the settlements closer to the road from

15 Domanovici and such, people who were in the first line of fire, and that's

16 why they went into hiding probably.

17 Q. And --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sorry, I have a question.

19 You just said that there were three mosques that burned, yours,

20 the one in Lokva, and the one in Aladinici. You said that you went to see

21 your mosque, and you said there were just ashes left. What I want know

22 is, when you saw with your own eyes your mosque, were you able to

23 determine how it was set on fire? Was it a shell that fell on it? Was

24 there explosive set and then it was blown up? Was it accidentally set on

25 fire? Was it torched with an incendiary device or a flammable substance?

Page 11697

1 Were you able to determine how it burned?

2 A. Your Honour, based on what was going on at the time and my own

3 conclusions, I decided that it was set on fire deliberately because there

4 were no shells. I think it was simply torched. It was not blown up,

5 although such things happened later during the war, but it was simply set

6 on fire deliberately, arsoned.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It was set on fire, but how? Do

8 you have anything that could help us understand how the fire caught on, or

9 you cannot help us?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I really don't know

11 anything about that.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this.

13 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour.

14 Q. Sir, the other people who were also in this forest, what was

15 the -- what were they hiding from or why were they hiding, for the

16 record.

17 A. Well, primarily out of fear. They feared retaliation. They

18 feared mistreatment. They feared they might be killed. I don't know what

19 was going through each one of their heads.

20 Q. Were these people all Bosniaks?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Now, sir, if we can move to the 17th of July. Before doing that,

23 may I just ask you one more question on this. Did you see anything else

24 apart from mosques burning or being destroyed?

25 A. Yes. Many Bosniak houses were aflame in Lokva, Aladinici,

Page 11698

1 Satorova Glava. You could even see part of Bivolje Brdo. Houses were on

2 fire there, too. So this was done systematically.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, on the 17th of July, 1993, at that stage you

4 were in the hamlet of Cuckovina with your family; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct. The first and last night we spent there.

6 Q. And tell the Court how it came that you left that location on that

7 day.

8 A. In the morning of that day, the 17th of July, a young man from the

9 neighbourhood came by and said -- and said to the people who I was staying

10 with, me, my family were guests there, that at 5.00 they should be ready,

11 that trucks would come to evacuate them from Cuckovina.

12 Q. In young man from the neighbourhood, was he a soldier?

13 A. Yes. Yes. He was an HVO soldier.

14 Q. Did this soldier tell you where you would be going to or what

15 would happen to you?

16 A. Well, he said for our own safety mostly that we would be taken

17 elsewhere.

18 Q. At 5.00 that day did trucks then arrive or a truck?

19 A. Yes. Several trucks arrived, and they took some from the village.

20 So the people went in their own trucks, some of them. We sat on the hub

21 of the trucks and travelled that way.

22 Q. Did you have a choice in this matter? Could you have remained

23 where you were?

24 A. Well, not really. We didn't have a choice, just to escape. But

25 that wasn't a choice, really, a viable one, because the risk was very

Page 11699

1 great.

2 Q. Where did the trucks go when you were on them?

3 A. We went via Domanovici.

4 Q. Yes. And to where?

5 A. At the time there was a well-known catering establishment called

6 Han. It was done in the oriental fashion. So that's where we were

7 unloaded.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. That's a

9 question from the Bench.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Prosecutor. Just

11 a short question.

12 You were speaking of trucks. Were they military trucks and, if

13 so, who did they belong to? Did they have any insignia, any markings on

14 those trucks that you were transporting the people, Witness?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, they were civilian

16 trucks, and the drivers were civilians too. They weren't military

17 trucks.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] And the trucks were requisitioned

19 by the HVO or what? Or were they civilians that wanted to help the

20 population to leave?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that they didn't want to go

22 voluntarily. I think the HVO took them.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. So, Witness, you were busy telling us about the catering

Page 11700

1 establishment Han. Could you continue from there? Where is Han?

2 A. Han is located in Pocitelj. It's an old town, and it's in the

3 oriental style, all the buildings. There's a mosque. There was the

4 Madrasa or religious school, the hamam during Turkish times. There's a

5 large artists' colony too. It was functioning during the war. So it was

6 an oriental town. Everything is in the oriental style, all the facilities

7 and buildings and features.

8 Q. And, sir, when you arrived there on that night, were all of these

9 buildings still intact?

10 A. Yes. I didn't notice anything amiss, anything that had been set

11 fire to or devastated.

12 Q. Until when did you remain in Pocitelj?

13 A. Until about 9.00. Roughly 9.00 in the evening.

14 Q. And what happened at 9.00 in the evening?

15 A. They rounded up the men, loaded them up, and took them away. They

16 were to separate the men from the women and children.

17 Q. If you say "they," who are you referring to?

18 A. The HVO. I mean the HVO, the police.

19 Q. If you say "HVO, the police," would this be military police or

20 not?

21 A. Yes, the military police.

22 Q. Now, sir, before looking at what happened to you further, just

23 briefly, what happened to your family after this?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please,

25 Mr. Kruger. There was a question that you don't seem to be asking, so

Page 11701

1 I'll ask it.

2 You've just said that they were separated, that the military HVO

3 police separated them, the people. Now, how could you distinguish between

4 HVO soldiers and HVO military policemen?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was able to do that

6 quite clearly. The military police wore white belts and had white

7 equipment. That is to say belts, pistols cases, batons or truncheons, and

8 I think they're easily distinguishable.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. There we have some

10 precise information.

11 Mr. Kruger, please continue.

12 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. So, Witness, could you briefly tell the Court what happened to

14 your family after you had been taken away from Pocitelj.

15 A. My family, just like many other families who went with me, and

16 even some after and before, found some accommodation in Pocitelj. There

17 were some weekend cottages and houses where they put up, and they stayed

18 there. Perhaps even for as long as 10 days.

19 Q. And at the end of that period what happened to them?

20 A. I know that after that they were taken by the HVO in trucks

21 crossing Western Herzegovina to Jablanica, I think. But they went for a

22 sort of exchange which never took place. I don't know for what reason.

23 Q. On that evening where were you taken when you were loaded on the

24 trucks?

25 A. They drove us directly to Gabela camp.

Page 11702

1 Q. At what time did you arrive at Gabela camp approximately?

2 A. I think it was about 11.00, thereabouts. About 11.00. That is

3 2300 hours I mean.

4 Q. In the evening. So on your arrival at 11.00 in the evening,

5 what -- what happened to you?

6 A. We were loaded out of the trucks. We were all in one truck. We

7 were lined up at the gate. We stood there for about an hour. We were

8 verbally abused, interrogated, that kind of thing.

9 Q. Now, if you say "we," who are you referring to? "We were all in

10 one truck and lined up at the gate."

11 A. I mean myself and the people who were with me in my group, some 20

12 people.

13 Q. Did any other people or were any other people arriving at Gabela

14 on that evening?

15 A. I'm not sure. I assume so, but I'm not sure. They were brought

16 in later.

17 Q. The people in your group, were they all Bosniak males?

18 A. Yes. They were all Bosniak, and they were all from Cuckovina, the

19 same settlement.

20 Q. What about your brother? Was he with you?

21 A. Yes, my brother was with me, too. He was arrested.

22 Q. If you say that on arrival you were verbally abused, interrogated,

23 that kind of thing, who was verbally abusing you and interrogating you?

24 A. I just know that his name was Marko, a well-built man, very rough.

25 Athletically built, in fact.

Page 11703

1 Q. Was he the only person on your arrival at Gabela, that is, to

2 receive you?

3 A. He mistreated us and questioned us, and, by the gate, there was

4 the boss of Bosko Previsic. His name was Nikola Andrun. He was sitting

5 there but didn't say anything or do anything.

6 Q. Marko and Nikola Andrun, were they dressed in any uniforms?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. What typed ever uniforms?

9 A. Marko was wearing some sort of - what shall I call it? - T-shirt,

10 like Rambo, with the braces and the trousers.

11 Q. Both of these persons during your stay in Gabela, did both of

12 these persons remain in Gabela or were they only there at that night, on

13 that night?

14 A. Yes. They were there for a longer period.

15 Q. So after your reception as you've described, where were you put in

16 the camp, in -- in the detention centre?

17 A. We were put in hanger number 3, the third in line. And we were to

18 the right of the door. I suppose there was still some room there.

19 Q. In hangar number 3 when you went into that hangar on that night,

20 what was your impression or your experience? Please describe that for the

21 Court.

22 A. Well, first of all there, wasn't much room. We couldn't lie down.

23 We couldn't even sit comfortably. We were up against each other. And

24 that's how dawn came. I couldn't see anything, but I could imagine what

25 was going on. I heard some sounds and so on.

Page 11704

1 Q. When dawn came, could you gain an impression of how many people

2 were in that hangar?

3 A. I saw that it was already full there was several hundred people

4 there. Of course I couldn't count them, but the hangar was certainly

5 full.

6 Q. Now, this hanger, did it have windows and doors which were

7 open?

8 A. Yes. It had two doors, wide doors, and windows which were high

9 up, right under the roof, and they were closed. So was the door.

10 Q. Could you describe the quality of the air as you experienced it in

11 that hangar?

12 A. The air. Well, there wasn't any air any more. We were like fish

13 out of water. We couldn't breathe. It was humid and hot. People had

14 relieved themselves, defecated, urinated. People sweated. Some had been

15 beaten up and had been injured. It was just terrible, deplorable.

16 Q. How was food provided upon your arrival and in the first period

17 you remained in Gabela?

18 A. I was lucky and got a meal the very next day, lunch. The people

19 who were arrested before me had had nothing to eat, but we were all given

20 that first meal, lunch. And what I got, well, it was distributed from a

21 large receptacle into the typical military army rations, army dishes.

22 There weren't enough of these dishes to go around, so you'd have to eat up

23 quickly so that the next person could get your plate. And it was a very

24 modest lunch, just two or three spoons of some liquid and a piece of

25 cabbage and a small piece of bread, because a loaf of bread would be

Page 11705

1 divided into 15, 16, or even 18 pieces, and that was the daily meal for a

2 period of 24 hours.

3 Q. Now, you said that was the meal you received on the first day. In

4 comparison to this, how were the meals that you received in the subsequent

5 period?

6 A. The other meals were better than the first meal but certainly not

7 enough to quench your hunger. There would be some peas or macaroni from

8 time to time, but the piece of bread was always very small and thin and

9 not enough, of course. Whatever there was, there was not enough of it.

10 Q. Now, after the first day when you received one meal, in the

11 subsequent period did you receive more than one meal a day or not?

12 A. No. For a whole month just one meal of that type, mostly.

13 Q. What was the situation regarding water?

14 A. The water situation was even more critical. We hardly ever

15 received any water, to begin with, or just a symbolic amount, seven or

16 eight litres to be divided among 400 inmates. Sometimes it would be

17 better if they didn't bring us any water at all, because it only caused a

18 great deal of trouble.

19 Q. What was the effect of -- of this little amount of water that was

20 received? What was the effect on you and the other detainees in that

21 hangar?

22 A. I think that it made us even more thirsty it, because you couldn't

23 really get even a drop of water. So we were more thirsty, if anything.

24 And of course we dehydrated very quickly. We sweated a lot and didn't

25 take any liquid in.

Page 11706

1 Q. Sir, do you know of any people who were with you in that camp who

2 suffered any consequences, long-term consequences, as a result of this

3 lack of water and dehydration?

4 A. Yes. I think I'm one of them. I have difficulties and problems

5 with my kidneys and my intestines. And I know that some -- one of the men

6 there, his kidneys ceased to function. I was a neighbour of mine, Vahid

7 Lizda. So already -- this happened already to him in the camp. He was

8 taken ill and transported to hospital, and I think he had a transplant.

9 Anyway, he's still alive. But, yes, it did have an effect on one's body

10 and one vital organs.

11 Q. The personnel at Dretelj detention centre -- sorry. My

12 apologies. At Gabela detention centre, to your mind, were they aware of

13 the effect of the lack of water and food and the effect it was having on

14 the detainees?

15 A. Yes, certainly. They certainly knew.

16 Q. Why do you say that?

17 A. Well, it was obvious that the people were suffering. Many of them

18 started losing consciousness, things like that.

19 Q. The commander at the detention centre, Bosko Previsic, according

20 to what you know was he aware of what was going on and of the condition of

21 the detainees?

22 A. Yes, fully. He was fully aware of the situation.

23 Q. And on what basis do you say so?

24 A. Well, I know that he was kept abreast of everything. He saw the

25 kind of food that came in, how the people reacted. He was present there

Page 11707

1 very often. He could see it all.

2 Q. Did you ever observe him, in your hangar, address detainees where

3 you were present?

4 A. Yes, many times. Almost every morning. He would come by and

5 lecture us, hold forth, with abuses of course. He would hold a monologue.

6 Sometimes he would come in the afternoon and towards evening. He would

7 say things, do something, organise a raid. He would come in almost every

8 day, and we would hear this monologue of his delivered to us, which was

9 very demeaning for us and insulting.

10 Q. Now, sir, upon your arrival in the hangar, you've described the

11 conditions. Could I ask you to describe whether you saw any injuries on

12 any of the people that you encountered in that hangar.

13 A. Already in the morning I saw a terrible scene. I saw many people

14 who had been beaten up. It was quite obvious that they had experienced

15 various kinds of torture. I don't know whether while they were being

16 arrested or whether when they were already there, but probably both.

17 Q. And from what did you see or what specific injuries or conditions

18 did you see?

19 A. The first thing I noticed, as soon as it was daylight, to my right

20 there were two men sitting down. They were neighbours, actually, from

21 Rotimlja. I know their surnames. I'm not sure of their first names,

22 though. One was a blonde young guy, Behram, and I think the other was

23 Safro. He had blonde hair and was of athletic build. This first one

24 Behram, his eye was closed up and he had bruises all over his body and I

25 even gained the impression that his ribs had been broken. He found it

Page 11708

1 very hard to breathe.

2 This other man, on his chest he had a wound, an injury on his

3 chest. It was an open wound, and it had already become infected. You

4 could see the signs of infection setting in. And somebody later on said

5 that when he was being arrested they burnt him with a piece of paper.

6 Anyway, he had this burn injury on his chest.

7 There were other people, too. Two brothers, Dzonko. I can't

8 remember what their first names were, but I know that their father's name

9 was Halil. They were beaten up too. But I think that this was when they

10 were arrested. It had already happened when they were being arrested. Of

11 course, there were people being beaten up there too.

12 Q. Did you see anybody being beaten inside your hangar, hangar number

13 3?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Could you tell the Court about that?

16 A. Yes. I saw a group enter, a group of several men, and among them

17 was a tall guy, a tall policeman wearing the military police uniform, and

18 he had a truncheon, and with them was an athletically built young man with

19 a broad belt with some metal spikes or plaques or whatever around that

20 belt. It was probably a heavy belt. And I think he wore it in order to

21 beat people with it. So when this group entered they asked where Zuhric

22 was, and right next to me there were several people called Zuhric from

23 Oplicici. And there was a father and son Zuhrici from my own village,

24 from Recice. And they came forward and they started beating them in front

25 of us. The policeman was the most brutal. He would use his truncheon to

Page 11709

1 beat these people, the Zuhrici. There was a young man or rather a young

2 boy; Zuhric was his name, too. I can't remember his first name, but Mujo

3 was his father's name, so this was Mujo's son, Zuhric. They took him

4 outside the camp, placed him up against the wall and used the truncheon to

5 beat him. He screamed and moaned until he fell down. The other Zuhrics

6 were beaten up inside. They were beaten with the truncheon on the body

7 and face. They were kicked.

8 One day, perhaps a few days after my arrest, another Zuhric was

9 brought in from -- the one from my village.

10 Q. Sorry, if I may interrupt you for a moment before you proceed on

11 this. The tall policeman where the military police uniform that you refer

12 to, which military police was -- uniform was this?

13 A. The HVO. The HVO. Nobody else could have entered anyway.

14 Q. The other men who were in this group, were they military or

15 civilian?

16 A. I saw the civilian, the athletic type. And later, people around

17 me told me that he was allegedly from Split. A body-building type, as

18 they referred to him, from Split. And he would generally come in to beat

19 up the inmates, the prisoners.

20 I can't remember all the others, but that was the time when

21 anybody was free to enter and beat up the detainees.

22 Q. The -- these persons who came in on that day, do I understand

23 correctly from what you say that they were not attached to Gabela

24 detention centre? They didn't have any official function there as far as

25 you knew?

Page 11710

1 A. No, I don't think they did.

2 Q. To your knowledge, were the personnel at Gabela aware of the entry

3 of these persons into the facility and what they were doing?

4 A. Yes. They did know, certainly.

5 Q. And why do you say so?

6 A. I'm quite sure they knew, quite sure. They had to see them.

7 They had to go in through the gate. They -- I'm sure they knew all about

8 this.

9 Q. Okay. Sorry I interrupted you. You were just about to tell us

10 about another Zuhric that was brought in, one the one from your

11 village.

12 A. Well, what I was going to say was this: Elvis Zuhric, when they

13 arrested him, they took him to the barracks in Grabovina, and he was

14 beaten up there. So that he was -- they carried him in and brought him in

15 to where we were. And his father, the other Mujo Zuhric, so not the first

16 man that I mentioned but his father Mujo Zuhric, was rounded up and taken

17 off and he never returned. He was killed, in fact. He was killed.

18 Q. Sir, the instances that you have mentioned of beatings that you

19 have seen, were these the only instances that you saw? Did you also see

20 other instances? Without going into details, just to find out if there

21 were other instances.

22 A. Well, there were. When the group arrived, the group that would go

23 outside the barracks to do some kind of labour. They would be searched,

24 and as a rule mostly this was done by the commander, Boko. And if he were

25 to find any cigarettes or tins of any kind, then the person would receive

Page 11711

1 a blow to the head with a rifle or rifle butt.

2 I saw a man called Sabanovic, a young guy, well-built, when -- he

3 hit him and he went around with this bruise for a long time. He was hit

4 in the forehead.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. And I also saw --

7 Q. If I may interrupt you at that point?

8 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, I see it is 7.00. I estimate about

9 another 20 to 25 minutes with the witness for tomorrow, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

11 It is 7.00. We're going to adjourn for the day and reconvene for

12 the last day of the year. The hearing starts tomorrow at 2.15. Thank

13 you.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day

16 of December, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.