1 Wednesday, 31 January 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Case

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. I'd

10 like to say good morning to all the people in the courtroom, the accused,

11 the Defence counsel, the Prosecution --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the other way round.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- and everybody else in the

14 courtroom.

15 Mr. Registrar, I give you the floor for the IC numbers.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [French on English channel]

17 THE INTERPRETER: This is the English channel.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The OTP submitted a response to 2D objections

19 regarding OTP exhibits tendered through Witness Rajkov. That shall be

20 given Exhibit number IC 272. Several parties have submitted lists of

21 documents to be tendered through Witness DA. The list submitted by the

22 OTP shall be given Exhibit number 273. The list submitted by 2D shall be

23 given Exhibit number IC 274, and the list submitted by 3D shall be given

24 Exhibit number IC 275. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Let's

1 go into private session for a few moments, Mr. Registrar, please.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

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6 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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12 (redacted)

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19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session I think we have

24 the first witness coming in this morning don't we, Mr. Mundis?

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

1 Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. The

2 Prosecution is prepared for the evidence of Omer Dilberovic.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let us have the

4 first witness shown in, please.

5 [The witness enters court]

6 WITNESS: OMER DILBEROVIC

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I'm going to

9 start off by checking whether you can hear what I'm saying in your own

10 language. If so, please tell me.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you have been called as a

13 Prosecution witness to testify here on the events that took place in the

14 town of Mostar. I'm going to ask you to stand and take the solemn

15 declaration. Can you give me your first name, last name, and date of

16 birth first, please?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Omer Dilberovic, and I

18 was born on the 20th of September, 1945, in Orahovica, Zenica.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a current

20 occupation?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I am not employed. I used

22 to work before the conflict. I was a driver. But since then I have not

23 been employed anywhere.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, have you ever testified

25 before a court of law on the events that took place in your country or is

1 this the first time that you're testifying?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you now go ahead and read

4 the solemn declaration the usher is going to hand to you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You may be

8 seated.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Some information from me to

11 start off with. The Prosecution is going to begin by asking you questions

12 and probably show you some documents. The Prosecutor has indicated that

13 he needs about 30 minutes for that examination. After that first stage,

14 the counsel sitting to your left, and although there are many of them,

15 there is one who will be questioning you for each of the accused -- can

16 also ask you questions. We envisage that the Defence will have one hour

17 for their cross-examination if they need to, and they can distribute it

18 amongst themselves as they see fit.

19 Now, as there are 60 minutes in an hour and six accused, then

20 theoretically, each of the Defence teams has 10 minutes.

21 The three Judges sitting in front of you can also ask you

22 questions at any time. I'm sure we'll be asking you about very specific

23 matters if we consider that absolutely necessary.

24 If you don't understand a question, then ask the person posing it

25 to reformulate it, to ask it again. If you're feeling poorly at any time,

1 just let us know. We're there to see that everything in the courtroom

2 runs as smoothly as possible.

3 That is what I wanted to inform you of as an introduction, and now

4 without further ado, I'm going to give the floor to the Prosecution to

5 start off with the examination-in-chief.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Examination by Mr. Mundis:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dilberovic.

9 A. Good morning. Thank you.

10 Q. Sir, I'm going to begin by asking you some questions concerning a

11 statement that you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you

12 remember giving such a statement in 2001?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. And at that point in time, sir, did you answer the questions

15 truthfully?

16 A. I answered them truthfully, yes.

17 Q. Did you answer the questions to the best of your recollection at

18 that point in time?

19 A. I do believe I did.

20 Q. And upon the conclusion of that interview, was your statement read

21 back to you in the Bosnian language?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you then sign an English language version of your written

24 statement?

25 A. I signed an English language version of the statement. However, I

1 was not able to read it.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Let me ask now, with the assistance of the usher, if

3 the witness can be provided with a bundle of documents, please.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as we're running

5 under 92 ter procedure, perhaps you could give us a brief summary of the

6 written statement.

7 MR. MUNDIS: I neglected to do so, as my case manager also just

8 pointed out to me. Let me read into the record the Rule 65 ter summary.

9 Omer Dilberovic was a resident of East Mostar. His son was a

10 member of the armija Bosnia and Herzegovina and was killed by a sniper on

11 13 June 1993. On 30 August 1993, the witness was on his way home from

12 visiting his son's grave when he was shot in the leg by a sniper.

13 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, could you please turn to the document that has the

14 tab 9854 in the bundle in front of you, please. 9854.

15 Mr. Dilberovic, is P 09854 your written statement in the English

16 language?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And does your signature appear on that document?

19 A. Yes, it is my signature.

20 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, if you could now turn several pages into that

21 exhibit you'll find the Bosnian language version of your statement. It

22 should be one more page, I believe.

23 Mr. Dilberovic, when you arrived here in The Hague two days ago,

24 did an investigator provide you with a Bosnian language copy of your

25 statement?

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And did you have an opportunity to read and review that statement?

3 A. Yes, I did. I read the statement.

4 Q. And yesterday afternoon when we met, did you make any corrections

5 or changes to your written statement?

6 A. Just a small change, and it says that my son was hit on the 12th

7 of June, 1993, whereas I attended my son's funeral. His mother didn't go

8 or anybody else, I just did. I went home with two soldiers who brought me

9 in when I wasn't feeling well and was semiconscious, and after that, on

10 the 30th of August, 1993, I took my wife to the place where my son was

11 buried so that she could see it. And another lady, Anita Kulak, also

12 went. She lived next door, so she went with us. And that was on the 30th

13 of August, and that's when I, myself, was wounded upon returning from the

14 cemetery at Mazoljice. So that's just a small correction. I wasn't

15 wounded when I went to my son's funeral but I was wounded on the 30th of

16 August when I went to the cemetery again to take my wife and this other

17 lady with me, and on the way back I was wounded at Mazoljice. So that's

18 the correction I wanted to make.

19 Q. And, sir, you've made a couple of references to the 30th of

20 August. What year are you referring to?

21 A. 1993.

22 Q. Now, sir, there are a couple of additional items that I'd like to

23 ask you about that aren't included in your witness statement, and so

24 perhaps the best way for me to do that is simply to ask you what happened

25 on the 30th of August, 1993, as you were returning from your son's grave.

1 Can you briefly tell us what happened?

2 A. Yes. I was at the place where my son was killed and buried in

3 Osman Dzikic park in Mostar. I was there with my wife and my neighbour.

4 Anita Kulak was her name. We were going back home when we had done what

5 we came to do, and when we reached Mazoljice we had to pass through an old

6 abandoned house, and there we had to run across an open space, and while

7 we did that we heard sniper fire, sniper shots. They were coming, I don't

8 know from where, but we felt that it was a sniper, and for a few minutes

9 we stopped there until the shooting had calmed down. Then Anita Kulak and

10 my wife rushed across the field. They ran across it and were able to come

11 out the other side successfully. I waited for another minute and then I,

12 too, quickly crossed the field. And when I came to the middle of the

13 field and put out my right leg, the sniper hit me in my right leg and I

14 fell to the ground.

15 Q. Let me just interrupt you there, Mr. Dilberovic. First of all,

16 you indicated that "for a few minutes we stopped there until the shooting

17 had calmed down." Where did you stop?

18 A. In that same abandoned house. There was nobody there. And we all

19 passed through that house and that's where we were. We stayed there for a

20 couple of minutes because we had to go through the house to cross the

21 field to reach the other house -- the other side where there was no longer

22 any danger from that house to my house because there was shelter from the

23 snipers.

24 Q. And, sir, you told us that you were struck in the right leg. Can

25 you tell us where on your right leg?

1 A. Yes. I was hit in my right leg on the left side and the bullet

2 came out by my right hip, and it just missed my hip by a few centimetres.

3 That's what the doctors told me when I was in Zenica, in the hospital

4 there.

5 Q. And on which part of your right leg did the bullet enter?

6 A. It entered through my thigh and exited by my right hip, the upper

7 part of my leg.

8 Q. Okay. And, sir, now can you continue telling us what happened

9 after you were struck by this bullet?

10 A. When the bullet hit me, I saw Mrs. Anita and my wife moving

11 towards me, but I said out loud to them, "Don't come near. I'm fine.

12 Because the sniper's going to shoot at you, too, and might hit you." I

13 heard them cry. I got up on my leg because I wanted to show them that I

14 was all right. I was afraid that they would come towards me. I put out

15 my left leg forward, left leg forward and then my right leg, and then my

16 leg turned around because it was -- the hip bone had been fractured. And

17 I couldn't walk. It was just limp. So I had to crawl to the yard.

18 Before it was a garden, it was a nice garden, but now it's a yard between

19 those two houses.

20 Q. Can you tell us, sir, approximately what time this incident

21 occurred on 30 August 1993?

22 A. On the 30th of August, 1993, I did not have a watch so I didn't

23 know the exact time, but I do know that it was afternoon, in the

24 afternoon. We usually went that way early. If you wanted to cross that

25 way you had to either go very early or late.

1 Q. And, sir, can you tell us about the weather conditions on that day

2 and the visibility on that day to the best of your recollection?

3 A. On that day - I remember well - there was no precipitation, no

4 rain, nothing. It was a nice day. No fog, no clouds, nothing. A very

5 clear visible day.

6 Q. And what were you wearing on that day, if you remember,

7 Mr. Dilberovic?

8 A. I was wearing some blue trousers and a short jacket, a blue

9 jacket, grey-blue, and I had some shoes on my feet. One -- one was left

10 in the hospital and the other by that house, so I was left without any

11 shoes in the end.

12 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, at the -- at the time when you and your wife and

13 Anita Kulak were at this Mazoljice area, were there any other people

14 around you?

15 A. No, nobody. We didn't see anybody then. When we passed through

16 the house we were alone. And when I was hit, when he hit me, when I was

17 in front of the house there were a lot of women who came to my assistance.

18 They tried to bandage the wound, brought in some blankets and things like

19 that.

20 Q. And at the time, Mr. Dilberovic, when you and your wife and Anita

21 Kulak were at Mazoljice, was there any heavy equipment or machinery or

22 military vehicles or anything of the like in the immediate vicinity?

23 A. No. No, nothing there. It was the suburbs, the outskirts of

24 town, not too many houses there. It was all open space, quite visible.

25 There were no soldiers. All you could see was a civilian run across that

1 field going to their house or things like that.

2 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, you mentioned a few moments ago that you heard

3 some gunshots. Can you tell us a little bit more about the gunshots that

4 you heard before you were shot?

5 A. Yes. You know that when a sniper fires he fires individual shots,

6 and when we were in the house, we said we're going to wait a bit. We all

7 agreed on that, because the sniper is firing and he would probably hit us.

8 So we stayed there for some time waiting until it was quiet, until the

9 sniper had stopped shooting. And when they crossed there was no shooting.

10 However, when I stepped out and started running across, then you could

11 hear this one bullet.

12 Q. And in the vicinity where you were at this abandoned house near

13 Mazoljice, was there combat going on at that time?

14 A. No, nothing. There was a lull. It was quiet. There was no

15 fighting.

16 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, did you hear the gunshot that actually struck you?

17 A. Yes, I did hear the gunshot.

18 Q. From which direction did you hear this gunshot?

19 A. The gunshot came from -- well, on the eastern side of Mostar town,

20 that's where I was, and the gunshot came from the west of Mostar because

21 there couldn't have been anybody in front of me. There was an open space.

22 No houses, just an open, clear space in front of me. So I came to the

23 conclusion that that was it, that the bullet had come from the western

24 side of town.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Dilberovic, do you have any more specific information

1 about where this bullet came from? Can you be more specific where in the

2 west the bullet came from?

3 A. Yes. I was in the area where I was crossing, in the eastern part

4 of town, and that part is called Mazoljice. The bullet came from the

5 western side, western direction, and I concluded -- that's what I

6 concluded, that the bullet came from the western side of Mostar.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Dilberovic, do you remember in 2004 meeting with an

8 investigator and photographer of the Tribunal at Mazoljice?

9 A. Yes, I do, and I readily accepted to talk to them, at least to be

10 able to tell somebody the truth, what happened to me and my son.

11 Q. And at that point in time when you met the investigator and the

12 photographer, they asked you a series of questions, didn't they?

13 A. Yes, they did ask me questions.

14 Q. And those questions and answers were videotaped?

15 A. Probably they were videotaped, yes. They were filming something.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President and Your Honours, we would now like to

17 show the witness P 09140 by way of Sanction.

18 Q. And, Mr. Dilberovic, if you could look at the screen in front of

19 you please?

20 [Videotape played]

21 "Investigator: Mr. Dilberovic, could you please indicate the

22 open area where you were planning to cross.

23 "Witness: [Indicates]

24 "Investigator: Thank you. To the best of your recollection,

25 could you please indicate the spot where you were shot at while running

1 across this open area.

2 "Witness: [Indicates]

3 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please indicate where you

4 were hit.

5 "Witness: [Indicates]

6 "Investigator: Thank you. And to the best of your recollection,

7 could you please point out the direction from where you heard the shot

8 presumably coming from.

9 "Witness: [Indicates]

10 "Investigator: Thank you."

11 MR. MUNDIS:

12 Q. Now, Mr. Dilberovic, did you recognise yourself in that videotape?

13 A. Yes. I didn't see the video here, but I have viewed it. That was

14 indeed what I said for that video, and the questions were as you heard

15 them.

16 Q. And you understood all those questions and answered them

17 truthfully?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we play that clip again?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Yes. I was actually going to do that, and if we

21 could actually ask the witness, I would prefer to stop at the point where

22 he indicates where he was hit, or we can play it through again and I can

23 then take him back to that point.

24 [Videotape played]

25 "Investigator: Mr. Dilberovic, could you please indicate the open

1 area that you were planning to cross.

2 "Witness: [Indicates]

3 "Investigator: Thank you. To the best of your recollection,

4 could you please indicate the spot where you were shot at while running

5 across this open area.

6 "Witness: [Indicates]

7 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please indicate where you

8 were hit.

9 "Witness: [Indicates]

10 "Investigator: Thank you. And to the best of your recollection,

11 could you please point out the direction from where you heard the shot

12 presumably coming from.

13 "Witness: [Indicates]"

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wanted to see this video again

15 because I see a flagrant discrepancy between the area where he says he was

16 shot and the area he pointed out as the area where the shooting came from.

17 On the video, sir, you are showing your right leg and then you are

18 showing to your left when you are asked where the shot came from. If the

19 bullet comes from the right and hits your right leg, it goes through your

20 right leg and exits your body. However, are you are showing on the video

21 that you -- your right leg was hit by the bullet.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's true. I was hit

23 in my right leg. As I was running, I stretched out my right leg and the

24 sniper hit me in that right leg, because the entry wound was quite clear.

25 And the difference between an entry wound and an entry and exit wound is

1 very distinct. I know that I was hit from the western part of town.

2 I was on the east side. I stretch out my right leg. The bullet

3 came like this, from that side, and it hit my right leg and then I fell.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps, Mr. President, if we show it again I will

5 ask Ms. Winner to stop the videotape and ask the witness some questions

6 about precisely what it is he's pointing to.

7 [Videotape played]

8 "Investigator: Mr. Dilberovic, could you please indicate the open

9 area that you were planning to cross.

10 "Witness: [Indicates]

11 "Investigator: Thank you. To the best of your recollection could

12 you please indicate the spot where you were shot at while running across

13 this open area.

14 "Witness: [Indicates]

15 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please indicate where you

16 were hit.

17 "Witness: [Indicates]"

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's my right leg.

19 MR. MUNDIS:

20 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, with your left hand in this video, what are you

21 pointing at with your left hand in this video?

22 A. I'm showing the point of entry of the bullet and the exit point

23 was on the other side. That's what I was showing with my left hand when

24 asked where I was hit.

25 Q. And what are you pointing to in the video with your right hand?

1 A. Nothing. I was just holding my hand like that. In fact, where my

2 right hand was is approximately the point where the bullet exited.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So with your left hand you were

4 showing the point of entry, and we see your left hand clearly on the

5 video. At least that deserved to be clarified.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. And if we need to, we can run that

7 segment of the videotape again in its entirety if that would be helpful.

8 Would you -- no, not necessary? Okay.

9 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, I'm now going to show you a panoramic 360-degree

10 photograph, and I'm going to ask you some questions about this photograph,

11 and I would ask you, sir, to tell me if you can spot anything that you see

12 in the photograph.

13 Mr. Dilberovic, do you recognise what you see on the screen in

14 front of you?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. What is --

17 A. This is the area I was trying to cross in order to get to my house

18 in Pasjak.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President and Your Honours, we have captured

20 three photographs from this -- this 360-degree photograph, and I'd ask

21 that the witness be shown this so that he can mark the photograph and we

22 can preserve it this way for the purposes of the record.

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] If I may just for a moment. While

24 we are here we need to correct the record. Page 16, line 18. The witness

25 used the word running across, and the -- it was translated as crossing

1 over. It will be important later because of speed when we hear the

2 expert.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kovacic.

4 MR. MUNDIS: If the usher could be of assistance, please, and --

5 and perhaps those could be placed on the ELMO, please.

6 Q. Now, perhaps, Mr. Dilberovic, if you could look actually onto the

7 photograph on your right.

8 A. Here is the road I was trying to run across.

9 Q. Sir, let me ask you -- let me ask you this: In this photograph,

10 is West Mostar visible?

11 A. Yes. You can see the west side better than the east side because

12 this is on an elevation, which makes West Mostar better visible than the

13 east side.

14 Q. Can you please take a marker that the usher will provide to you

15 and circle or draw an oval around West Mostar as it's visible from this

16 photograph.

17 A. Yes. Can I make a circle here?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. And here. It was here in this direction approximately. This is

20 the west side of the town of Mostar that I can see. Maybe it was even

21 closer.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just made three circles on

23 three buildings.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are silos. I know for sure,

25 and I know that it's the west side of the town of Mostar.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So these are silos.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that for a fact. And I

3 believe on the other side there are even --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you ever cross that path

5 before?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but in later hours when there

7 was no shooting. It was calmer.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you knew there was a sniper

9 in ambush. According to you, where was he located, in which spot?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you precisely. I

11 wouldn't know. I know that it came from the west side, but where he was

12 shooting from and how, I really don't know.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder whether perhaps the witness

14 could be invited to actually deal with precisely what Mr. Mundis asked him

15 to do. It's entirely what the Prosecution asked, but once a question is

16 asked, the witness ought to deal with it. He was asked to draw a circle

17 around West Mostar and he hasn't done that. Well, an oval actually.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stewart, you're right.

19 The question was broader, in more general terms.

20 Witness, the Prosecutor asked you to make a circle on this

21 photograph to indicate what you believed to be West Mostar. Instead, you

22 made three circles, three little ones. Could you please draw a bigger

23 circle to show us western Mostar?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the direction of these

25 buildings. You see, I drew this broad line here. That side is the west

1 side of town as far as I can -- from here to that point, that is part of

2 the west side. And here where this car is is the east side.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see the line.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the west part of the town.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We see a yellow car here and

6 then a line above it. Between the car and the line, at the time when you

7 were hurt, when you were injured, were there any ABH units in the area

8 between the line you drew and the yellow car?

9 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. I apologise for

10 interrupting Your Honour's question, but the witness still has the pen.

11 He indicated all sorts of things with his finger which then don't go on

12 the record. I apologise, but I really do feel it's appropriate to press

13 that he does do with the pen precisely what he was asked to do.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thought he did answer your

15 question, but maybe you didn't understand. He said that in his eyes, in

16 his understanding, western Mostar was everything above that line, beyond

17 that line. So behind the line is West Mostar.

18 Now, I have a question. We have to know under whose control was

19 the area between the line and the yellow car. To the best of your

20 knowledge, were there any ABH units there?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, up here there are not

22 many houses, and this car was not there, nor was this -- any greenery in

23 August, and this area was better visible than now, because you could see

24 the road where the vehicle is standing in this picture. There was no car

25 at that time, but the garage was there.

1 There were no troops at all, because there were troops down there

2 at the separation line holding the Santic Street in Mostar between the HVO

3 and the army of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 MR. MUNDIS:

6 Q. If you could now look again, sir -- and perhaps the usher can just

7 remain there because we'll go to the next photos in a moment.

8 Sir, if you can look again at the screen in front of you, I'm

9 going to move the photograph, and I'd ask you to tell us if you recognise

10 anything that's visible in the photograph in front of you?

11 A. Yes. That's the house through which we passed coming from the

12 lower side, coming out on the upper side and running across that field.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for technical reasons

14 and in order to save time later, we have already moved to another

15 photograph, but maybe we should get a number for the previous one rather

16 than come back to it later.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the previous photograph, are

18 you going ask for an IC number?

19 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The first photo.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit IC 276.

22 MR. MUNDIS:

23 Q. I'm going to continue moving the photograph, Mr. Dilberovic.

24 A. That is the building. There's nothing beyond. That's where we

25 passed through to the clearing that I had to run across in order to get

1 home. Not only myself, of course. All of us had to pass through there.

2 All the civilians going in that direction had to pass.

3 Q. Is -- Mr. Dilberovic, is this the house that you earlier told us

4 was the abandoned house?

5 A. Yes, it is, Your Honour.

6 Q. Again, we have a capture of this building, and I would ask you,

7 sir, if you could please take a look at that to your right. And if you

8 could please mark that -- mark the abandoned house where you with your

9 wife and Ms. Kulak waited. If you could put an X on the abandoned house

10 as you called it.

11 A. [Marks]

12 MR. MUNDIS: We'd also ask that this be given an IC number,

13 Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 277, Your

16 Honours.

17 MR. MUNDIS:

18 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, if you now again look at the computer screen in

19 front of you.

20 A. Yes, that's the building that was there. That's the track in the

21 middle of which I was hit by a bullet. Yes, Your Honour. In that

22 building across the road with a fence, that's something that did not exist

23 at the time. All that was built later, including the greenery and the

24 fence.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Dilberovic, we have a video still of this photograph as

1 well, and I'd ask that be put on the ELMO next to you. Do you see the

2 location -- do you see the location where your wife and Ms. -- Mrs. Kulak

3 were at the time you were shot?

4 A. Yes. I see it. They were here.

5 Q. If you could please mark that spot with an X.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And, sir, where did you go after you were shot, immediately after

8 you were shot? Where did you go?

9 A. I was taken to hospital, the institute of hygiene in Mostar.

10 Q. Sorry. Sorry. My question wasn't clear. Immediately after you

11 were shot you told us you tried to get up and fell down. What did you do

12 after that?

13 A. Yes. I got here to where my wife and Ms. Anita were standing,

14 here, the spot that I marked. I reached this place and then they hauled

15 me from here to a place where some first aid was given to me, bandaging,

16 et cetera.

17 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask, Mr. President, that this also be given

18 an IC number, please.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 278, Your

21 Honours.

22 MR. MUNDIS:

23 Q. Now, Mr. Dilberovic, you mentioned that you were taken to the

24 hospital. I would ask you now, sir, if you could please take a look at

25 what's in the bundle in front of you, 8404.

1 Sir, can you tell us what this document P 08404 is?

2 A. When I was in the hospital in Zenica where I was taken by

3 helicopter from Mostar, I was hospitalised from the 8th of September,

4 1993, to the 21st of March, 1994, and here below you can see that I was

5 injured on the 30th of August, 1993. It's the document from the hospital

6 certifying that I was there for seven months.

7 Q. Could you please turn, sir, to P 08756. Can you tell us what that

8 document is, sir?

9 A. We went on mass at the North Camp when there were doctors who gave

10 you an assessment for purposes of invalidity pensions, disability

11 pensions.

12 Q. And what is this document, sir?

13 A. I was given this document which read 20 per cent disability.

14 Q. And the last document I'd like to show you, sir, is 8170, P 08170.

15 A. I don't know. Can't see it. 8170.

16 Q. It should be the second document in the bundle. 8170. And can

17 you tell us, sir, what this document is?

18 A. I asked for this document because, we, who lost a family member,

19 had the right to free treatment. We who lost somebody in the war were

20 entitled to free treatment, so I asked for this document.

21 Q. And to whom does this document refer?

22 A. That's my son, Semir, born on the 15th of December, 1967. All

23 this is correct.

24 Q. Sir, in 1993, were you a civilian or were you a member of the

25 armija?

1 A. Your Honour, I was a civilian all the time, and everybody was

2 registered somewhere, the civilian protection or somewhere, but since

3 there was no need of me, nobody ever asked for me nor did I go anywhere.

4 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, we have no further questions for you. I'd like to

5 thank you for coming to the Tribunal and testifying.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have two short

8 questions for you. We have seen the photographs on which you left one

9 building in order to go to another house where your wife and another lady

10 were waiting for you. You were planning to run across that clearing. How

11 many metres approximately?

12 A. Your Honour, I cannot tell you exactly. I didn't measure, but

13 approximately 20 metres. A metre less or more. I did not measure, but it

14 was around 20 metres.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Concerning the exact address of

16 that spot where you were hit, you spoke of Mazoljice. Is that the name of

17 the neighbourhood or the street or the spot?

18 A. Mazoljice; right. There were houses there. Somebody lived there.

19 Mazoljice is a suburb, a street that runs through, and only 300 or 400

20 metres away is my neighbourhood called Pasjak.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's a shame, Mr. Mundis, that

22 we don't have a map, because he could have indicated the neighbourhood on

23 the map.

24 Registrar, can we see on our screens the famous map of Mostar?

25 You don't have it.

1 And the last question, sir. To your knowledge, at the place you

2 were hit, wounded, before you, were there any people who were wounded or

3 killed before you? And what about after you? To your knowledge, was

4 anybody wounded or killed at the same spot after you?

5 A. Your Honour, I heard them shout out that it was a place you had to

6 be careful because there was sniper fire and that there were a lot of

7 people who had been wounded there, but I myself don't know who was wounded

8 or what. I really don't know.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, a moment ago you spoke

11 about civilian protection, and my question is a follow-up question to what

12 the President asked you. In the area that you were wounded, were there

13 any members of the civilian protection or any armed persons or soldiers

14 that were exchanging fire with West Mostar, which is where you say the

15 bullet came from? Was there any exchange of gunfire?

16 A. No, Your Honour. There was absolutely no shooting, but even if

17 there had been, nobody could have shot from there because they would have

18 been hit straight away from the western part. So if anything was done, if

19 there was any shooting, it was in the town up at the separation lines,

20 that is, Santic Street that I mentioned and places like that.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now we have the map on our

23 screens in front of us. Can you see it?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you use a marker pen to

1 indicate the spot you were wounded? You can put a cross or whatever you

2 like.

3 A. Yes. Mazoljice is towards Pasjak, so that would be somewhere

4 here. Hereabouts, towards Pasjak.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, there.

6 A. Yes. And this is probably the road, and I was wounded somewhere

7 around here. My house is here, and this is Mazoljice. So I was in

8 between Mazoljice and the houses here crossing over.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, on that same map, can you

10 draw in the front line as you knew it?

11 A. Your Honour, I can't really make my way on this map. I could give

12 you the street names, but I can't find my way on this map, and I don't

13 want to make a mistake.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Fine. That will

15 suffice.

16 Mr. Registrar, give us an IC number for the map, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 279, Your

18 Honours.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have half an hour

20 before the break, so let's start off with the cross-examination, and which

21 Defence team is going to start?

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of General

23 Praljak will be the first team. I have a few questions for the witness,

24 and I think they will help clarify some location issues.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. I apologise for not being able to address you with your name. Oh,

4 yes, I can. I apologise. You weren't given a pseudonym. You are

5 Mr. Dilberovic.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I have a few questions and additional explanations that I would

8 like to hear from you. Let's go back to the question of location. You

9 showed us the spot that you were wounded at, and the position is somewhere

10 between Mazoljice and Pasjak, as you said. So that's a micro-area, this

11 little cul-de-sac, little road, path. Does it have another name?

12 A. It was private property. It was probably private property, and

13 there was - what shall I call it? A field, a valley where there wasn't a

14 path, but there's a path there now.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. And may I ask you to give me yes or no

16 answers if that is possible without additional explanations because we

17 simply don't have time.

18 So your answer was it doesn't have any name. This path hasn't got

19 a name.

20 A. Well, I don't know of any name.

21 Q. Now, in your statement you said that it was a nice day and that

22 the incident occurred sometime in the afternoon; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, in view of the date, it must have been very hot.

25 A. No. No. It wasn't too hot, because it was in the afternoon

1 hours.

2 Q. But we're talking about the 30th of August, are we?

3 A. Yes, that's right, the 30th of August, 1993.

4 Q. And you say it wasn't hot?

5 A. Not then, no. Not at that time. I didn't find it hot.

6 Q. Was it humid and was there any wind?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You said you ran across the clearing, and you showed us that and

9 we saw a picture of it on our screens. Can you explain to us, please, the

10 word "run across," "pretrcavati", that can mean walking fast, running

11 slowly, or running fast. Which was it?

12 A. I ran fast, faster than usual.

13 Q. Does that mean that you ran as fast as you could?

14 A. Yes. Now, at my age, perhaps, it wasn't, objectively speaking,

15 terribly fast, but I ran as fast as I could for my age.

16 Q. Right. According to your age.

17 A. Yes. I ran the best I could.

18 Q. Do I understand you correctly? You ran as fast as you could, as

19 much as you could?

20 A. Yes. Probably out of fear I ran as fast as I could.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. May we have on our screens the previous

22 image, IC 276. And you'll see the photograph that you marked again, the

23 three high-rise buildings on the western side which are referred to as the

24 silos.

25 Now, from the position you were at a little above the yellow van

1 to the line that you drew in, that is the area controlled by the BH army;

2 is that right?

3 A. Yes. I am certain that that's the line. Maybe it's a little

4 closer, but at least that was the furthest point.

5 Q. All right. Slowly. Let's take it step-by-step. So from the

6 place you were standing, how far is it to the Neretva River, 100 metres,

7 200, 500, roughly?

8 A. You mean where I live?

9 Q. No, where you were standing, where this photograph was taken from?

10 A. Well, I really don't know how far it was, whether it was 1

11 kilometre or a kilometre and a half, I don't know.

12 Q. Of course you don't know exactly. That's fine. Just a rough

13 estimate.

14 A. Well, I don't know exactly.

15 Q. So you said it might be one to one and a half kilometres; is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us also in your rough estimate how far it is from the

19 Neretva to the separation line between the HVO and the BH army? You

20 mentioned Santica Street. So how far from Neretva to Santiceva street?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Well, roughly?

23 A. 200, 300 metres. Santica street isn't too far from the Neretva

24 River but I can't tell you exactly.

25 Q. All right. That will be fine.

1 A. I never measured the distance, nor did I give it much thought.

2 Q. Thank you. That will be sufficient. Now, you said today here

3 when asked about the clothing you were wearing and for the transcript, you

4 said you were wearing blue trousers and a blue jacket of some sort.

5 A. Well, it was a bluey-grey. Whether you'd call it a grey jacket or

6 blue jacket. Anyway, it was from some artificial material, fibre, sort of

7 plasticy.

8 Q. In that statement that my learned friend of the Prosecution showed

9 you to begin with, you said, "When I was wounded, I was wearing grey

10 trousers which they later cut through, and I had a greyish jacket." Is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes. Well, grey or -- I'm not very good at colours. It was

13 either sort of grey or blue or grey-blue. It wasn't white. It wasn't

14 yellow anyway, that's for sure, but it was sort of grey.

15 Q. Now, the jacket you have on now, Witness, what colour would you

16 say that was?

17 A. Well, it's got several colours. I'd say black, dark. I don't

18 know.

19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the record, can we

20 state that the witness is wearing an anthracite, dark grey jacket with

21 lighter grey details.

22 Q. But we can agree, it's something you called blue-grey.

23 A. Well, no. If it was blue, it was blue. If it was grey, it was

24 grey. But it was probably what I said in my first statement.

25 Q. Right. In your first statement, you said you were wearing a grey

1 jacket and grey trousers; is that correct?

2 A. Well, probably yes, because I remembered better at that time than

3 I remember now after so much time.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in a word, because the

5 Defence is taking a lot of time and I'm going to go to the heart of the

6 matter. What you were wearing, what you were wearing, could it be

7 compared to any type of military uniform, that kind of thing?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, not at all. It didn't

9 resemble any kind of army uniform. No, it did not. It didn't resemble

10 any kind of military uniform.

11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Now, Witness, I think you said that you heard the shot.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So now I'd like to ask you this: You know that when a firearm or,

15 let's say, a rifle shoots, you hear the sound of the explosion at the

16 place in which it is detonated. That is to say at the rifle spot.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you know that there is the sound of the projectile as well,

19 the bullet? That makes a sound too.

20 A. We didn't hear.

21 Q. Do you consider that what you heard was the sound that you heard

22 when a bullet was being fired, is fired?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you believe that you could then have heard the bullet firing at

25 a distance of at least one kilometre and several metres from the place you

1 were hit?

2 A. Yes, that's right. I heard the shot being fired.

3 Q. The firing.

4 A. Yes. I heard the shot being fired when the bullet hit me.

5 Q. All right. You described to us and we saw it on the video as

6 well -- you showed us the direction from which you consider that the

7 bullet had come, and you indicated that it was from the west side.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you be more precise and say where from the west? To the far

10 left, from the centre, to the far right?

11 A. Well, if you have the road or path here, then the west is in the

12 direction of the road, the western part of town. It's neither left nor

13 right.

14 Q. So you say that it's a continuation of the direction of this path?

15 A. Yes, that part of town over there.

16 Q. But it's a direction.

17 A. Yes, it's that direction in that part of town, because this

18 officially was the eastern side of town and over there was the western

19 side of town. So if you followed the direction of the path, you would get

20 to the western side of town.

21 Q. When you describe the western side, you first made circles round

22 these three high-rise buildings that you called the silos. So those

23 buildings are to the right of the path?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. When you drew circles round those high-rise buildings, do you

1 think that the projectile could have come from those high-rise buildings?

2 A. No. The gentleman asked me where the western side of town was,

3 and I said, to be quite certain, from the silos that way. I said that it

4 could be closer, but I know exactly what I drew here, and that is exactly

5 in the western part of town. That's why I took the silos as a demarcation

6 line.

7 Q. Now, to conclude, you can't be more precise than say that it was

8 from the western side of town?

9 A. Yes, that's right. I can't say anything else because there were

10 no houses in front of where I was hit for me to have any doubts that the

11 bullet could have come from somewhere else. So that's why I said that,

12 what I did.

13 Q. Right. Thank you.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any more

15 questions. I think General Praljak might, though.

16 Thank you, Witness.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

18 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dilberovic.

20 A. Good morning.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'd like the usher's

22 assistance to place a document on the ELMO.

23 Q. Tell me, please, on the 12th of June when you attended your son's

24 funeral in the cemetery, from that place, the cemetery, can you see Hum

25 hill? Can you see Hum well?

1 A. No.

2 Q. You can't see it well?

3 A. No, you can't, because it -- there are buildings in the way, and

4 it's in the middle of town, in the eastern part where Osman Dzikic's

5 monument is located.

6 Q. Now, on this photograph. I think the expert put a 6 on this

7 image, on the map. Is that the place you were hit, where the number 6 is?

8 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I can't find my way here at all. I

9 can't orientate myself.

10 Q. Do you know where Mazoljice is?

11 A. Yes. Well, that's where I was hit and wounded but I can't say

12 anything precise on the map because I'm afraid of making a mistake.

13 Q. Do you see the area to the left of 6 -- of -- 6, yes. Do we agree

14 that that's the railway station and that there's a long road called Marsal

15 Tito Street running that way, the one parallel to the Neretva River,

16 running parallel. We have the Carinski bridge and then we have the

17 railroad station and below the railroad station we have Marsal Tito

18 Street.

19 A. Everything you're saying is quite right, but I just can't find my

20 way on this map here.

21 Q. All right. Look underneath that number 6. Do you remember where

22 the war hospital was of the BH army below you, in that general area.

23 A. Yes, the institute of hygiene?

24 Q. Yes. Show me where the institute of hygiene is then?

25 A. I've already said I can tell you all this orally but I can't find

1 my way on the map. I don't know. I really can't make it out on this map.

2 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, I understand you completely. So underneath --

3 below you somewhere was the institute of hygiene; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's right. I can say what I know but I can't do anything

5 better than that.

6 Q. Is it the case that above the institute of hygiene there is a

7 little hill towards you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know that just below that hill there were positions of

10 mortars of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11 A. No, there were no mortars there.

12 Q. Is that something you know or something that you don't know?

13 A. I know there were troops, but I don't know about mortars. Maybe

14 there were mortars. I'm not sure.

15 Q. So you're not sure whether there were mortars or not.

16 A. No, I'm not sure.

17 Q. But you know that there were troops there?

18 A. Yes, there were troops around the institute of hygiene.

19 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you for answering these.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next counsel.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:

22 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, did you go the same way when you went to visit

23 your son's grave?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So that was early in the afternoon, was it?

1 A. Yes, around noon.

2 Q. You told the Court earlier and said in your statement that you

3 usually went either very early in the day or very late. Why did you

4 choose to go more in the middle of the day on the first occasion, as you

5 told the Court, that you were taking your wife to go to visit your son's

6 grave given that is was, according to you, more dangerous to go then?

7 A. Yes. My wife had not been to our son's grave for two months. She

8 decided to either go or die. I wanted to wait until late afternoon, but

9 she didn't want to wait. She would have gone alone if I hadn't

10 accompanied her. That's why I had to go at that hour, that time, and

11 that's what happened.

12 Q. Did you take similar precautions on the way to cross this

13 particular open space?

14 A. Yes. When we were going there from our house, we did the same.

15 The sniper was not shooting. We didn't even hear him anywhere.

16 Q. Was there any shooting going on when you went?

17 A. No. No. Only when I climbed down towards the cemetery we could

18 hear shells, but further away from the town, whether it was in

19 Nevesinje -- and shells were falling from both sides probably, I don't

20 know.

21 Q. Well, on the way back then -- first of all, let's get clear. You

22 said in your statement, paragraph 19, that you waited half an hour before

23 crossing this space. This morning you said it was a few minutes. Now,

24 was it -- was it quite a long time, like half an hour that you waited or

25 was it a very short time? Can we be clear.

1 A. Let me tell you, I did not have a watch. I cannot tell you

2 whether it was half an hour or less. I don't know that for sure. I just

3 waited for the shooting to stop. That's the main thing.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. For how long, I don't know.

6 Q. Let's proceed on, then. And also it's quite clear from your

7 recollection now --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. Mr. Stewart is

9 asking an important question that I wanted to ask myself. It struck me

10 that you said you'd waited half an hour. If you had waited half an hour,

11 then it must have been because you had heard shooting, and you told

12 yourself, "I can perhaps avoid that," and you waited for around half an

13 hour.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. I heard

15 shooting. And only when the shooting stopped I ran across, when I could

16 no longer hear the shooting from that sniper or other weapon.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are we to conclude that during

18 that half hour you heard one or more than one sniper who was shooting

19 everywhere, or were they shooting precisely at the spot where you were?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the shooting stopped and when I

21 was hit by that bullet, I no longer heard the sniper. I was there for a

22 while, and some people hauled me back the same way, and the sniper wasn't

23 shooting any more.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART:

1 Q. You -- just to clear something up. You said in your statement

2 that your wife and your neighbour Anita walked and didn't run. You said

3 this morning that they ran across. Again, as clearly as you can remember,

4 was it true that they ran?

5 A. They probably ran. I can't remember. But whenever you come

6 across a space, a spot that is dangerous, people run across.

7 Q. All right. All right. You can't remember. [Microphone not

8 activated] Now, when you said in your statement --

9 A. I really can't remember about that, but I did run.

10 Q. Let's move on then. You said in your statement that you waited

11 for about half an hour. We could still here some shooting but they were

12 not so often. So the position is this, isn't it, there was no shooting

13 worth mentioning on the way to the cemetery in the morning. On the way

14 back, there was a lot of shooting going on, so you waited and then when

15 the shooting was a bit less, you decided that you were going to have to

16 risk it so that your wife and Anita first and then you ran across the

17 space. That's what happened, isn't?

18 A. Yes. Yes, exactly.

19 Q. And then you were very unfortunate. You were hit. Just want to

20 be clear. The way you described the wound this morning made it sound as

21 if the exit, you understand what I mean by the exit wound, that where the

22 bullet came out, it sounded as if it was even slightly higher than where

23 it went in. Is that -- is that right? That's the way it sounded this

24 morning.

25 A. Yes, that's right. The exit wound is smaller, and the entry wound

1 is bigger than the exit wound.

2 Q. I'm not concerned about the size, but I just want to confirm with

3 you the way you made it sound was the exit wound was higher up. It was

4 nearer to your hip. That's right, is it?

5 A. The exit wound is not above the hip. It's below the hip.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 A. If it had been above, it would have destroyed my hip.

8 Q. The exit wound is slightly higher than the entry wound?

9 A. The exit wound is bigger than the entry wound.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've got lots of questions. I do

11 wish -- not lots. I have a few minutes. I wish to press this.

12 Q. Can we be very clear, Witness. Perhaps you could even just stand

13 up for us. I'm sorry to have to ask you to do this but we need to get

14 this clear. Just stand up for us and mark with your finger where the

15 bullet went into your leg and just mark it just very clearly, particularly

16 so the Judges can see. That's terribly important.

17 A. I can explain to you.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

19 A. That's where the building was --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

21 A. I will. I will tell you. I just moved to make a step. The

22 bullet hit me here. I still have a scar.

23 Q. And where did it come out?

24 A. And it came here below the hip. And the wound here was bigger

25 than the entry wound.

1 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Next question -- sorry. Can we --

2 I'm grateful for suggestions, but I'd prefer not to cross-examine by

3 committee. All right? Please. We'll come back to it.

4 When you were on the ground crawling, you don't describe -- there

5 was no attempt to shoot you then, was there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. All right. Excuse me.

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 MR. STEWART:

10 Q. So -- so you -- you managed safely -- how long did it take you?

11 From when you were shot and on the ground crawling to when you were able

12 to get out of -- under cover, out of the open, how long did it take?

13 A. You know what? I started immediately wanting to run but I

14 couldn't, and then I got crawling to the gate. I don't know how long it

15 took me.

16 Q. Well, was it -- it must have been two minutes or something like

17 that minimum, mustn't it?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know. You can try to infer. It was about

19 20 metres. I was hit in the middle. How long it could have taken me to

20 crawl. I don't know the time.

21 Q. Let's put it this way: If there was a sniper and he had been

22 deliberately shooting at you, he had plenty of time to shoot you again,

23 didn't he?

24 A. When they hit a person, they usually wait for other people --

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

1 A. -- to come --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. -- and --

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. -- hit them and try to kill them. That's what I think.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... to shoot you he would have

7 had plenty of time to do it, wouldn't he?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Now, when you went to the hospital, you said originally in your

10 statement that the doctor told you you were the 53rd person to be shot by

11 a sniper that day. Now, you've changed that as a result of the proofing,

12 and you now say the doctor told you that you were the 53rd person to be

13 wounded that day. So it's very clear. It was -- it became a very busy

14 day as far as shooting was concerned, didn't it?

15 A. Yes. If you allow me to say this. When I got to the institute of

16 hygiene, to the hospital, I was in great pain, because probably when I

17 tried to run I hurt my leg any more and I was in great pain. They gave me

18 first aid. I wasn't bleeding any more. And then the doctor approached

19 and I asked him, "Doctor, please, give me an injection or something. I

20 can't stand this pain any more." And he said, "Be quiet. You see how

21 many of them there are here. You are going to be fine."

22 Q. All right.

23 A. And the doctor said --

24 Q. I don't want to press you further about what happened at the

25 hospital then. We've got an answer to that.

1 Now, on this busy day, something that you don't mention but which

2 the Dutch expert mentions, lieutenant Van Der Weijden, he says and you are

3 clearly the source of this, it's page 20 of his report, he specifically

4 records that you stopped for an instant at a location marked X which is

5 pretty much the point you were shot for a peek towards the front line.

6 Now, you must be the source of that information. That's correct, is it,

7 that as you were crossing that open space, you stopped or you say you were

8 running, but you stopped and had a look towards the front line. That's

9 right, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that was --

12 A. I can't recall exactly. When a bullet hits you, you are probably

13 going to turn around and look where it came from, but I can't tell you

14 exactly.

15 Q. There was a lot going on, and you looked towards the front line

16 because there was a lot of activity at that time in the afternoon, wasn't

17 there?

18 A. It could be. It could be right that I looked at the lower side to

19 see where it came from, but I can't remember whether I looked or not or I

20 just fell. I could easily have looked. But what is there to look at? I

21 just fell immediately as I was hit. It fell me to the ground.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have two short linked questions. I

23 know Mr. Petkovic may want to ask something, Your Honour, but it's this.

24 First of all, Your Honour, it's suggested and I do -- I do accept my

25 learned friend's suggestions, we should put this on the record, that a

1 description, because we all saw it of what the witness said of the entry

2 and exit wound, I hope Your Honours will agree that the witness pointed to

3 places for the entry wound and place for the exit wound which made it

4 clear as we saw in court that the exit wound was slightly higher than the

5 entry wound. I hope Your Honours will agree for the record that that was

6 what the witness indicated.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On that point we can question

8 the expert or a doctor, but you know as well as I do that sometimes a

9 bullet enters the body and as a result of resistance it encounters, it can

10 go higher or lower.

11 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can have that confirmed

13 later --

14 MR. STEWART: I'm only asking to have it made absolutely clear for

15 the record what this witness's evidence was on that point and then what

16 questions arise in the future are another matter. Your Honour, if there

17 is any doubt at all -- I'm seeking Your Honours confirmation that is what

18 Your Honours saw this witness indicate. If not, we'll have to go over it

19 again.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 JUDGE PRANDLER: Of course I'm not an expert on sniping, but I

22 would like to say the following: According to this picture which we have

23 seen and where the witness has made the sign where in his view the front

24 line was in a way put between West and East Mostar, as far as my

25 calculation and as I see it, this part of -- of Mostar west was a bit

1 lower than this hill. We have here a hill in my view, and that's why the

2 shot came from a bit below.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with -- with -- with respect --

4 JUDGE PRANDLER: Then the wound from the exit wound was in a way a

5 bit higher than -- than the -- than the one when it entered.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour I -- did I --

7 JUDGE PRANDLER: But I believe it is not a major question but my

8 reading of the events.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, I was deliberately not

10 entering into -- I'm not at this moment taking up what Your Honour says at

11 all. I'm leaving that. But I'm not entering into either argument or more

12 extensive evidence. My point is an extremely narrow one. It is just that

13 this witness's evidence over about one minute on that particular point

14 is -- is simply confirmed for the record as having been given in the terms

15 in which it is given for what in the end it turns out to be worth. That's

16 all, Your Honour.

17 I've got to say, Your Honour, for the record, I am going to say

18 that I saw the witness indicate very clearly that the exit wound was

19 higher than the entry wound. I believe that my colleagues to whom I

20 apologise for my testiness a few minutes ago, I believe that my colleagues

21 saw exactly the same thing. I see nods from the committee which

22 contribution I welcome this time. I see nods from that committee. If the

23 Prosecution saw anything different they better re-examine on it, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, do you agree with what

1 counsel just said? Counsel just said that the entry wound, the point

2 where the bullet entered, is lower than the point where the bullet exited.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the wound where the

4 bullet entered, that's what I was trying to say, the entry wound is

5 smaller than the exit wound.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, we are not talking about

7 the size. Everybody knows that entry is always smaller than the exit.

8 It's not the size. We're talking about the level, the height.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I had understood

10 earlier. I thought the size was in question.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm talking to you about the

12 level, about the height. Was the entry point lower than the exit point?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I thought the size

14 of the wound. It was bigger on this side than the entry wound, and --

15 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues] ...

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- you can see --

17 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues] ... we seem to be

18 still in confusion about size and position. Your Honour, I'm reluctant to

19 suggest this but we -- we feel there is a need in the circumstances. The

20 witness of course unhappily still bears the scars as he made clear. Of

21 course he knows where on his own leg and thigh these wounds are. Your

22 Honour, could we invite him very quickly to just put his finger on exactly

23 where the entry wound is and put his finger then exactly where the exit

24 wound is and Your Honours can see it. Your Honours, I'm asking through

25 Your Honours if the witness could be troubled to do that.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stand up, please.

2 MR. STEWART: I wonder if the witness can be troubled to come

3 where we can all see, Your Honour.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was hit here.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please stand in the middle.

6 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, please stand in the middle.

8 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues] ... but ...

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was hit here, and that's where the

10 bullet entered and left my body.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's where my hip is.

13 MR. STEWART: Sometimes we work in inches, sometimes we work in

14 centimetres, but it seems very clear that the -- where the witness is

15 showing the exit wound is at least two or three centimetres higher than

16 the entry wound.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

18 MR. STEWART: My metric colleagues will confirm that probably.

19 I'm glad we got that sorted out. I'll allow the witness to put

20 his headphones back on.

21 Q. My linked question is this, Witness: You appear to have been

22 given some compensation on the basis of military disability. Can you

23 reconcile how you came to be awarded something on the basis of military

24 disability with your contention that you were throughout and at the time

25 of this injury a civilian?

1 A. No. No. It's written here. Families of military invalids and

2 those who lost somebody in the war, who lost a family member in the war.

3 It says families of fighting men and Sehid, meaning victims' families.

4 Q. Were you compensated or were you given an award for your own

5 injury or for the fact that your son had died?

6 A. There were many civilians who applied for some sort of indemnity,

7 and there were two doctors who made a makeshift board, and they assessed

8 disability, level of disability. They wrote 70 per cent for some people,

9 20 per cent for other people.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've raised a question one of my

11 colleagues will pursue it, so I certainly won't take it any further. Your

12 Honour, like Mr. Praljak, my client Mr. Petkovic may have one or two

13 questions.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to take a break because

15 we are already late. We are using a lot of time. Mr. Karnavas maybe will

16 not have any questions. Mr. Karnavas?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, I do have about -- I would say

18 three or four minutes. I will be very brief. It will summarise more or

19 less what needs to be summarised, but I don't think I will take much more

20 than five minutes if that.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Nozica?

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] As it looks now, I will have one or

23 perhaps two questions. Two or three minutes.

24 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Very short, a couple of

25 minutes only.

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] A couple of minutes perhaps,

2 Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will continue at five past

4 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.45 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at is 11.06 a.m.

7 MR. STEWART: I have no further questions myself, but as I

8 indicated, Mr. Petkovic would like to ask a couple of questions, please.

9 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning.

10 Cross-examination by the Accused Petkovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. You can hear me I see.

12 In 1993, were you 48 years old?

13 A. I was born in 1945, so you can work it out.

14 Q. Yes. You were 48 then. Now, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, if you were

15 48, are you still a military recruit?

16 A. Well, I wasn't, but I could have been called up I suppose.

17 Q. You are a 20 per cent invalid. May we have the following document

18 on our screens, please --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker repeat the number, please.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] P 08756 is the number.

21 Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, can you see the document in front of you? It was from

23 the military commission.

24 A. I really don't know what this is.

25 Q. You have it on the screen in front of you, to speed things up.

1 Can you see that? Take a look at the right, and it says "Form number 1."

2 Have you read that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Under that it says: "Military disability."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you received a certificate saying that you were a 20 per cent

7 military disability invalid; is that right?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Well, that's what it says.

10 A. Well, it says that I was given it because of the family members of

11 the Sehid or martyrs, victims.

12 Q. It says that the families are entitled to that.

13 A. No. That was a different decision that I got for my son, but I

14 don't receive anything on the basis of this.

15 Q. But you have 20 per cent invalidity, disability 20 per cent; is

16 that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, let's go back to IC 00277, please. And while

19 we're waiting for the photograph to appear, I'm going to ask you the

20 following -- can you hear me, Witness?

21 A. Yes, yes, I can.

22 Q. IC 00277. That is the place. That's the spot where he was

23 wounded -- or, rather, where he was given assistance, helped later. That

24 doesn't seem to be the right photograph. It is the house where he was

25 taken in, where he was wounded.

1 That's it, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You say you were running across; is that right?

4 A. I was running across until halfway.

5 Q. Did you run straight up or were you bowed down?

6 A. Well, I don't know. I suppose I was upright. Maybe I'd bent down

7 a little.

8 Q. Now, where you made the mark, that is where you were helped?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. They brought the stretcher in there and placed you on the

11 stretcher, and then you were taken to hospital?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Would you take your pencil and indicate the path you took towards

14 the hospital?

15 A. The same route. Can you put the picture up a bit?

16 Q. Did you take the route to the left passing by the house?

17 A. I went in the direction where I was wounded. The same way. I

18 went and came back the same way, and down at the end of the path there was

19 a vehicle waiting.

20 Q. And nobody shot at you there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And then how do you claim that when somebody is wounded they shoot

23 at them? How many people carried you?

24 A. Nobody was shooting, but there were several people. I don't know

25 how many.

1 Q. So 15 minutes later you returned to the same spot on the way back

2 and nobody shot at you?

3 A. No.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly be asked not to

5 overlap. Thank you.

6 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further

7 questions.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next counsel.

9 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] I'd like to remind the witness of a Prosecution

12 document. P 08170 is the number, and it will come up on our screens. It

13 is the certificate relating to your son, saying that he died as a fighter.

14 P 08170. The date is 1994, the certificate, and I assume that you

15 received your rights on the basis of the certificate issued on the death

16 of your son. Can you see it?

17 A. Yes, it's come up.

18 Q. Right. And on the basis of that certificate, as the mother and

19 father of the person who was killed, you were given your rights?

20 A. I asked for this when I went to be ensured on the basis of what my

21 doctor said.

22 Q. And you were granted certain rights?

23 A. Yes. And if you allow me --

24 Q. Never mind. That's all I wanted to ask you. Thank you.

25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the

1 interpreters.

2 Q. We're going to make pauses, otherwise we overlap and nobody can

3 hear us.

4 Next document P 08716. It's the document we looked at a moment

5 ago. P 08756 [as interpreted]. It is the findings.

6 Now, if I understood it correctly, in 1997 you tried to get some

7 rights and remuneration for having been wounded yourself.

8 A. Well, everybody got something, so I thought I could ask for

9 something, too, as a civilian victim, but I wasn't able to get anything.

10 Q. It is P 08716. So you went before this military commission, and

11 in point 4 on page 2, can we have a look at that, page 2, point 4, the

12 findings. In point 4 it says at the top that it was ascertained that the

13 military disability amounted to 20 per cent. It was permanent disability.

14 And I assume that you didn't receive anything on the basis of that because

15 20 per cent is too little.

16 A. Well, I didn't ask for anything. I wasn't a soldier, so I didn't

17 ask for anything.

18 Q. But why did you go to this military commission?

19 A. Everybody did. All the civilians. Everybody did. They all went

20 up before a commission like this.

21 JUDGE PRANDLER: Please, Witness, Mr. Dilberovic, kindly

22 understand that you when you speak in your own tongue, language, that you

23 cannot always overlap with the other speaker. You have to wait until the

24 counsel finishes and then to start speaking only when everything is quiet.

25 I hope that you will understand this. Thank you.

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, to avoid this problem we're having in overlapping,

3 I will give you a sign to start when I stop and when I see the

4 interpretation has finished.

5 A. Just you go ahead. When you stop talking, I will continue.

6 Q. You have to count to five before you continue, all right? Count

7 to five. Not out loud, of course.

8 Now, when you went before the military commission, did you tell

9 them you were a civilian?

10 A. I didn't say a thing. I didn't say anything. I just handed them

11 the hospital document.

12 Q. Thank you. I have just have something brief to ask you. There

13 were many witnesses in this courtroom before you who told us about the

14 kind of uniforms that the soldiers had, the HVO soldiers and the BH army

15 soldiers, et cetera, and the conclusion that we were able to draw up until

16 now was that on that -- that the BH army wasn't very well equipped

17 militarily speaking. Am I right? In that 1993 period. And they couldn't

18 have been, of course.

19 A. Well, I don't know. I suppose so.

20 Q. Now, is it true and correct that at that time soldiers put on

21 anything they had? Some had camouflage uniforms, others used the old

22 olive-green uniforms or parts of those uniforms that the Yugoslav People's

23 Army used to have. And we know there were grey ones, blue ones,

24 olive-green ones and so on.

25 A. I didn't go down there where they were, but I'm sure that there

1 were all sorts of uniforms, but I can't say exactly what kind of uniforms

2 they wore. I really don't know.

3 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

4 have no further questions.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next counsel.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

7 have no questions, but I would just like to clarify something that entered

8 in -- that was put in the transcript, and that is that Pusic [as

9 interpreted] -- the Pusic Defence counsel attended the visual

10 representations. My client on the 1st of July, 1994 [as interpreted], was

11 at a meeting where they discussed the technological aspects of these

12 presentations. They were not an active participant in compiling the

13 exhibits when the visual presentation was shown. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is there a mistake in the

15 transcript? It was 2004, not 1994. Page 54, line 8.

16 Next counsel, please.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

18 Honours.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

20 Q. Good morning, sir. I just have a few questions.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. First, let me begin by thanking you for coming here to give your

23 evidence. Now, sir, as I understand it, from the testimony that we heard

24 on that particular afternoon, there was shooting going on before you got

25 hit; correct?

1 A. Yes. You could hear shots.

2 Q. And the shots that you were hearing were coming from both

3 directions. In other words, from east to west and from west to east?

4 A. I couldn't say. I heard a shot. I heard shooting, but where I

5 don't know.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, I am -- I never

7 heard that -- the witness say that the shots came from two directions.

8 You said they went west/east and east/west. He never said that, so I was

9 rather startled when you said that.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, you should be startled, Your Honour, because

11 this is cross-examination. I'm trying to get the witness to tell me

12 whether that happened. He said shots. Where did the shots come from?

13 They could have come from north to south, south to east, east to west. I

14 don't know. That's what I'm trying to get from the gentleman. The whole

15 point is that he heard shooting. Now, where was that shooting? So I am

16 trying to clarify this. This is classic cross-examination, one step at a

17 time, declarative statements. The gentleman can correct me if I'm wrong.

18 Q. So, sir, could you tell where the shots were coming from, whether

19 they were strictly coming from east to west, from west to east or from

20 both directions?

21 A. The bullet that hit me came from the west. I can say that with

22 full certainty. Now, as to the other shooting, if you hear automatic

23 rifle shots or I don't know. I don't know who was shooting. You don't

24 know who's shooting, where the shooting is coming from. All you do is run

25 and try and flee.

1 Q. Exactly. So you do not -- you allow for the possibility, in fact,

2 the probability, that there was shooting going from both directions?

3 A. Not then.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm not talking about when

5 you were shot.

6 A. No.

7 Q. The shot that came from you. The bullet that hit you. I'm

8 talking about the shooting that preceded, because based on your testimony,

9 there was shooting and you waited and then when there was some quiet

10 that's when you ran across.

11 A. Yes. That's what the -- those were the sniper shots that I heard,

12 bullets I heard, and then I waited for the situation to calm down.

13 Q. Okay. And you told us -- you showed us the general direction.

14 You don't know with any degree of certainty where that shot came from?

15 A. No.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... was a sniper --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- or whether he was a huntsman or whether he was a sharpshooter

19 or whether he was just a soldier or whether he was just an individual?

20 A. I didn't see anybody, so I can't say anything about that.

21 Q. Now, the bullet, did they ever retrieve the bullet to examine the

22 bullet so we know at least with some degree of certainty from what kind of

23 weapon that came from?

24 A. No, no. No, they didn't. It went through my leg, and I don't

25 know.

1 Q. And so you don't know what kind of weapon was used? You yourself.

2 A. The shot came from a sniper. Now, how, I don't know. I know they

3 shot from the western side from a sniper. Now, who did the shooting, I

4 don't know. I don't know whether it was Muslim, Croat, Serb, I don't

5 know.

6 Q. All right. And you don't know whether that shot that hit you

7 whether it had ricochetted from the ground and hit you or whether it was a

8 direct shot?

9 A. No, I don't know. He -- he hit me directly in the leg, and it

10 exited the other side. That's all I can say.

11 Q. And you don't know the distance?

12 A. No. The people who -- well, they looked into that.

13 Q. As I understand it from your testimony, we saw you on a video with

14 one individual, an investigator from the Prosecution, but you didn't meet

15 an expert, a gunshot or sniping expert on that occasion to show him

16 exactly what happened on the terrain on that particular day?

17 A. Well, the people who came, we talked. We looked at the situation.

18 Whether they were experts in that field or not I don't know. I can't say.

19 Q. Now, you indicated that you heard the shot, the gunshot.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then -- and then based on what you heard, you're able to tell

22 us from approximately what direction the bullet came from; correct?

23 A. Yes. That's what I said. The western side, that's where the

24 bullet came from. Who did the shooting, I can't say.

25 Q. Now, did you hear the shot before you got hit or did you get hit

1 and then heard the shot? Which of the two?

2 A. No. When it hit me, I heard the sound of a bullet going off.

3 Before that, you could hear sniper bullets here and there, shots here and

4 there. I said that too and I said that we waited.

5 Q. Right. But I'm just trying to get the -- I guess, I'm trying to

6 figure out, did you hear the shot before it hit you or was it at the same

7 moment or did the bullet hit you and then you heard the shot? Which of

8 the three?

9 A. Oh, please. When the bullet hit me I heard the shot. How can I

10 hear over there waiting to be shot?

11 Q. All right. Okay. Now, you said you never went down there where

12 they were. That's was the testimony that you just gave with respect to

13 the colours of uniform that the -- the soldiers were wearing.

14 A. There were all sorts of uniforms. That's the truth of it.

15 Q. But your answer was, and it has nothing to do with the uniforms,

16 but your answer was you never went down there where they were, meaning,

17 you never associated yourself with the soldiers, wherever they were;

18 correct?

19 A. No, no, no. All I know is that they were at the separation line

20 at Santic Street. The HVO on one side, the BH army on the other, and

21 that's where there was shooting coming from both sides, in that area.

22 Q. Right. And the separation line was in front of you on that

23 particular day?

24 A. No. It was always in Santic Street. There wasn't a separation

25 line where I was. It was down there at Santic Street all the time.

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... in front of you or behind

2 you? The Muslim fighters.

3 A. No. In front of me in Santic Street across the bridge. You have

4 to cross the bridge, Tito's bridge, and that's where the lines were. On

5 one side you had the Croats, on the other side you had the BH army. The

6 Croatian Defence Council if you prefer that name.

7 Q. And that's where you heard the shooting on that particular day?

8 Prior to you getting shot.

9 A. Well, I wasn't looking to see where the shooting was heard from.

10 It might have been on this side or over there, but you could just hear

11 sniper fire. I don't know who was doing the shooting or where it was.

12 You could just hear firing coming from a sniper, sniping firing. And we

13 waited for the situation to calm down so that I could cross the road.

14 Now, that's when the bullet hit me. Whether it was intentional or not I

15 can't say.

16 Q. Precisely. That's my point. Thank you very much, sir. I

17 appreciate you coming here?

18 A. I just don't know.

19 Q. Thank you very much, sir. No further questions.

20 A. I was shot. That's what I know.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Last counsel.

22 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Murphy:

24 Q. Good morning, sir.

25 A. Good morning.

1 Q. You -- you said in your statement, and I think today, that after

2 you were shot, you were in the hygienic institute in Mostar for five or

3 six days; is that right?

4 A. Yes. Yes. It's there in this statement.

5 Q. And then you were taken in a car by UNPROFOR to Medjugorje?

6 A. Yes. Thanks to them my leg was saved.

7 Q. And then from Medjugorje you were flown in a helicopter to the

8 hospital in Zenica.

9 A. Yes. A helicopter from Medjugorje to Zenica, to the hospital

10 there.

11 Q. Now, Medjugorje was -- is on the west bank of Mostar; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes, that's right. Yes.

14 Q. So that area was under the control of the HVO at that time?

15 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. But nonetheless you were able to get a helicopter flight to take

17 you to the ABiH army hospital at Zenica?

18 A. It's a civilian hospital up there. But UNPROFOR, they drove us.

19 They saw to it all. UNPROFOR sorted the transportation and everything

20 else. They were along with us right up to Medjugorje.

21 Q. Okay. And then, do you know who transported you from Medjugorje

22 to Zenica?

23 A. I don't know. There was some planes, helicopters. I don't know

24 much. I was just lying on the stretcher.

25 Q. Okay. Mr. Karnavas, the last advocate who asked you questions,

1 asked you about your being on the video that we saw this morning, an

2 investigator from the Prosecution. Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And he also asked you whether you had met an expert witness,

5 actually, a Dutch military officer. It was actually a Dutch military

6 officer called Lieutenant Van Der Weijden. Do you happen to remember

7 whether you met that gentleman, Lieutenant Van Der Weijden?

8 A. There were many of them. I don't know them by name. I didn't

9 ask. They were very nice to me and I told them of my own free will

10 whatever I knew, but I don't know them by name.

11 Q. Finally, when you were interviewed by the Prosecution and made

12 your statement at the end of June in 2001, why did you tell the

13 investigator that you had been shot after your son's funeral during June

14 of 1993?

15 A. You know, all this happened as I was coming back from the

16 cemetery, from visiting my son's grave. That's maybe how it happened. I

17 said when I was coming back with my wife and Ms. Anita, who was a Croat,

18 from the cemetery. It's only about the date. On the 12th of June,

19 neither Ms. Anita nor my wife came with me. It happened on the 30th of

20 August when we went together to my son's grave. Maybe it was my slip.

21 Maybe somebody else's. I don't know exactly. But there are documents to

22 show when I was shot, when I was in the hospital, how I was treated, when

23 my son died, so I don't see any dispute.

24 Q. I understand that, but I suppose my question was simply why you

25 had given that version of it to the investigators. You're saying that you

1 were just mixed up about the date; is that right?

2 A. Maybe they asked me, "Where were you coming from? Were you

3 visiting your son's grave?" And I said, "Yes," and maybe that's how that

4 date came to be entered. I had no intention, and I corrected it

5 immediately, as soon as I saw it, because I knew that I had said something

6 without really thinking.

7 Q. You gave the investigator some details about your son's funeral,

8 didn't you? You said that it was held about 4.00 to 5.00 in the evening.

9 Do you remember saying that?

10 A. Yes. It was in the afternoon, probably around 5.00. I don't

11 know. I didn't have a watch. I know it was already close to nightfall.

12 There was no shooting when I was burying my son.

13 Q. Then later in your statement on page 3 of the English version you

14 said this. I want to read this to you and ask you to listen,

15 please. "Usually I would only cross this place early in the morning or

16 late in the evening, but because of the funeral, I had to cross at this

17 time."

18 Do you remember saying that to the investigator?

19 A. I said that I went to attend the funeral of my son with his mother

20 who wanted to go on the 30th of August. That's correct. And as for the

21 rest, I can't tell you, because I was wounded on the 30th of August,

22 because that was the day when my wife had expressed her wish to go there.

23 If I hadn't taken her there, she would have gone alone. I told

24 her, "Okay. We are going." Ms. Anita, with whom we were very good

25 neighbours, also wanted to come.

1 Q. I understand that, sir. So the explanation that you're giving to

2 the Trial Chamber is that you simply got mixed up as between your son's

3 funeral and a date some two months later when you went to visit your son's

4 grave; is that right?

5 A. That is correct, because -- I don't know. I told you, my son was

6 killed on the 12th of June. And it was written that on that occasion I

7 went together with my wife and Ms. Anita. And it's true that I didn't go

8 there with my wife on that occasion. I went with my wife on the 30th of

9 August. That was her first visit to the grave.

10 Q. But it was a mistake that you made, not a mistake that the

11 investigator made when he was writing down what you said?

12 A. Yes, yes. If I made a mistake, I'm correcting it now because it's

13 impossible. I have all the papers from the doctor to confirm when I was

14 wounded. Maybe I did say that. I don't know whose mistake it was.

15 MR. MURPHY: I have nothing further, Mr. President. Thank you.

16 Oh, if you just allow me a moment. I'm sorry.

17 Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 MR. MURPHY: Mr. President, I just have one or two quick questions

20 following up from the cross-examination if I might.

21 Re-examination by Mr. Mundis:

22 Q. Mr. Dilberovic, you were asked a number of questions by the

23 Defence concerning the entry and exit wounds you sustained. Can you tell

24 it us, sir, what injury you suffered to your leg as a result of this

25 gunshot wound?

1 A. It's not an entry and exit wound. The doctors say it fractured

2 the bone. An entry and exit wound is when it just enters and exits

3 through the flesh, but I don't know how my wound is called properly in

4 medical terms.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dilberovic. We have no further questions.

6 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, if I could just ask for one correction

7 of the record. On page 63, line 14, it gives the impression that I was

8 about to conduct a re-examination rather than Mr. Mundis.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, your

10 evidence is complete now. I thank you on behalf of my colleagues and in

11 my own name. And I now invite you to leave the courtroom escorted by the

12 usher. Thank you very much.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, we are now going to

16 move into closed session. We should lower the blinds.

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Your

21 Honour.

22 MR. BOS: Good morning, Your Honours and everyone in the

23 courtroom.

24 Examination by Mr. Bos:

25 Q. Good morning, Witness.

1 Witness, you will be referred to as Witness DB since you have been

2 granted protective measures. And I'll first give a brief summary of your

3 statement.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted). The witness was shot in the shoulder by a sniper

7 while he was trying to assist a man named (redacted) who had been shot

8 and wounded by a sniper. On another occasion, the witness was wounded by

9 shrapnel while (redacted). The witness was also present when a

10 colleague (redacted) was shot and killed by a sniper outside the (redacted)

11 (redacted).

12 Witness, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about your

13 statement. Is it correct that you provided a written statement to the

14 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 1st of July, 2001?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And at the time you provided this written statement, did you

17 answer the questions to the investigator truthfully?

18 A. I answered truthfully.

19 Q. And did you answer the questions freely, that is, without any

20 coercion?

21 A. Right. Of my own free will, without coercion.

22 Q. And at the conclusion of the interview, sir, was your statement

23 read back to you in the Bosnian language?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. And did you then sign your statement in the English language?

1 A. I did.

2 MR. BOS: If I could now provide the witness with a bundle of

3 exhibits which includes his statement.

4 Q. Witness, could you look at the first exhibit which is Exhibit

5 9858.

6 MR. BOS: This exhibit will be under seal, Your Honours.

7 Q. Witness, could you go through this and is it correct that this is

8 in fact the English and both -- and the Bosnian statement that are under

9 this exhibit number that you provided in July 2001?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. And is it correct that your signature is on the English version of

12 the statement?

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 Q. Now, do you recall that you met with an investigator and myself

15 yesterday afternoon?

16 A. I remember.

17 Q. And at that meeting, do you remember that I asked you whether you

18 had re-read your statement and whether you wanted to make any corrections

19 to your statement?

20 A. I recall that.

21 Q. And is it correct that you made the following corrections which

22 are on the top page of paragraph -- the top paragraph of page 3 of the

23 English statement and on the fifth paragraph of the B/C/S statement, page

24 number 3? And I'll read out the corrections and you maybe can confirm it

25 that that is indeed what you wanted to correct. That the sentence which

1 reads: "A man called Refik Saric had been visiting us at the station and

2 had been there for about an hour. Then he decided to leave." That this

3 sentence is incorrect because "I never saw Refik Saric inside the fire

4 brigade station that day and I do not know whether Refik Saric actually

5 visited the station or not." Would that be one of the corrections that

6 you wanted to make to the statement?

7 A. Yes, that's one of them.

8 Q. And was the other correction is that in -- in that same paragraph,

9 the sentence which reads that you do not remember the exact date that you

10 were shot at by the sniper is incorrect, because you know that the

11 incident occurred on the 29th of September, 1993, as the injury that you

12 sustained that day was recorded by the secretary of the fire station?

13 A. That is another correction I made.

14 Q. Is there anything else that you wish to add or correct to the

15 written statement besides these two corrections?

16 A. Nothing else.

17 Q. And if I were to ask you questions now about the subject matters

18 contained in your written statement, would you answer -- answers reflect

19 what is written in your statement with the exception of the two

20 corrections that we just made?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. BOS: Your Honours, at this stage I would like to tender the

23 witness statement of Witness DB into evidence as Exhibit 09858.

24 Q. Witness, can you just briefly describe to the Court what happened

25 to you on the 29th of September, 1993, when you were shot at?

1 A. That morning at 10.00 or maybe 11.00 I was on the premises of the

2 fire brigade, and I suddenly heard a cry. I ran towards the place where

3 it came from, and I saw Mr. Saric. He was covered in blood. That's

4 perhaps 20 metres away from the spot where I was before. I just ran to

5 him, and I didn't manage to haul him around the corner because somebody

6 already had done that.

7 At the corner I felt a blunt strike in my right shoulder blade. I

8 fell to my knees, and a second bullet passed just over my head and hit the

9 wall. I managed to retreat around the corner, and I just sat there.

10 A lady came up to me. She shrieked and cried, but she did not

11 help me. I managed to get to the hospital. There was a policeman who

12 helped me in.

13 I found Mr. Saric there. I saw that his arm was covered in blood.

14 The doctors were already taking him somewhere for a surgery, I suppose.

15 And I saw my brother in the hospital as well. It turned out that it was

16 my brother who had hauled Mr. Saric to the hospital. That's it.

17 Q. Just one question to clarify, the rest is in your statement. But

18 when you actually got out of the station in order to help Mr. --

19 Mr. Saric, was there any combat activity going on in that area at the

20 time?

21 A. No, nothing. It was quiet at that time.

22 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I would like -- now like to move into

23 private session, and I would like the witness to be shown a video.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

25 [Private session]

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy, take the time during

23 the cross-examination unless you have a very substantive question, but I

24 would be surprised if you do.

25 MR. MURPHY: I just wondered whether Mr. Bos wanted to put on the

1 record the results of his request to the witness to indicate certain

2 things while we were in private session, just so there will be a permanent

3 record of some kind of what happened.

4 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 MR. BOS: Just for the record, what you just indicated to us we'll

8 need to have this on the record. Is it correct that when you indicated

9 the entry wound you were pointing at the back of your shoulder and when

10 you were indicating the exit wound you were pointing at the front of your

11 right-hand shoulder; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understood the opposite. Just

14 a moment.

15 Witness, the bullet entered in front or at the back?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bullet entered from the back.

17 MR. BOS: I don't know if this is a translation problem or not,

18 Your Honours, but I hope it's clear to everyone in the courtroom now.

19 We'll have another exhibit which may, you know, make it even more clear.

20 Q. Witness, is it correct that when you met with an investigator and

21 myself yesterday afternoon that you were also shown a 360-degree

22 photograph, a photograph which can go all the way around?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. And is it correct that this photograph was taken on the exact spot

25 where you were shot at on the 29th of September, 1993?

1 A. That is correct, yes.

2 Q. At this point, I would like to show you this 360-degree

3 photograph. Can you see it in front of -- in front of you, Witness?

4 A. Yes, I can.

5 Q. Maybe in order to orient -- orient the people here in the

6 courtroom, could you just tell us the direction this -- this photograph

7 looks at? Is that -- which direction is that? Is that north, east, west,

8 or south?

9 A. This is towards the west.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In order to save time, Mr. Bos,

12 two observations. We've already seen this photograph showed to another

13 witness, and when the Judges were in Mostar we walked down this street.

14 MR. BOS: Very well. Okay.

15 Q. Witness, what we'll do is we'll turn around the photograph, and

16 what I would like you to do is to tell you to stop when you see the

17 direction from where you believe that the shot that hit you in the back of

18 your right-hand shoulder would have come from. And we'll just start

19 turning the photograph around now.

20 A. Stop.

21 Q. Now, Witness, yesterday in proofing you stopped about the same

22 moment and we made a video still of this -- of this part of the

23 photograph, and I'm going to show you this video still here now in

24 order ...

25 Now, Witness, what I would like to ask you is whether you can

1 indicate on this video still where you think the shot came from that --

2 that hit you on that day.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Let me ask you another question. You've made a circle on this

5 photograph right in the middle of the photograph, and there's a white

6 house on the left of this circle. Was this white house there in 1993?

7 A. Yes, it was, but part of the roof had been shelled.

8 Q. Thank you. Okay. Witness, I have two more exhibits that I would

9 like to show you, and they're in the --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question. You've

11 just indicated where the shot came from. We can't see very well, but

12 there is a hill behind. Does that mean that in your opinion the person

13 doing the shooting was up on the hill?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. They asked me that

15 the first time, too, but I said I don't know. I'm not sure where the

16 bullet came from, where the shooting came from, or the shot.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the shot came from the area

18 where you drew the circle; is that right?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 MR. BOS:

21 Q. Witness, I would like to now ask you to look at --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Bos, please.

23 MR. BOS:

24 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at Exhibit 7775, which is a

25 medical record of a person that -- that was also on --

1 MR. KOVACIC: Perhaps Your Honour, to save some time, it may be

2 more practical to add an IC number on that photograph immediately before

3 moving to another subject.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Registrar, let's have

5 an IC number for the photograph that the circle was drawn on.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 281, Your

7 Honours.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kovacic, for

9 drawing our attention to that.

10 MR. BOS:

11 Q. Maybe, Mr. Witness, you could put the initials DB in the

12 right-hand corner of the photograph and today's date which is the 31st of

13 January.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, again, could I ask you to look at

16 Exhibit 775, and in particular the third page of -- this is a medical

17 record from Mr. Saric, who was -- who was also hit on that day and whom

18 you -- whom we also saw on the video. And we have a couple of medical

19 documents on -- on this person, and I'm particularly interested in the

20 third page of the B/C/S version and also the English version, which starts

21 with a date 24/10/93. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And is it correct that it says that -- that it says "injured with

24 a rifle bullet on 29 September 1993. The wounds near the lower elbow are

25 healed. Movement with fingers are limited"? Is that what it reads?

1 A. Yes, but it's in English here.

2 Q. But I would -- there's also a B/C/S version. I'm sorry, I thought

3 you were looking at the B/C/S version.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, for

6 interrupting, but it would be very useful if we were to see the document

7 on e-court. There are a number of documents there, medical documents

8 which relate to the same person, some with a P, others without a P, and it

9 will be easier to clarify some more legible than others.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I also wish to point out that the gentleman is

12 doing the exact thing that Judge Trechsel criticised General Praljak for

13 doing, that is, asking whether the document says what it says. So I just

14 wish to point this out, because it appears that the Prosecution is doing

15 exactly what the Defence tries to do, but there are no objections when

16 they do it.

17 MR. BOS: Well, there's -- there's still a follow-up question on

18 this, Your Honours.

19 Q. Witness, what is written here, does that confirm which -- with

20 what you saw in the hospital when you met Mr. Saric with regard to the

21 wound?

22 A. Yes, it does confirm it.

23 Q. Witness, could we now move to Exhibit 992 -- well, this is not in

24 the bundle, but if the e-court could show the witness page -- this is

25 Exhibit 9220, which is a bundle of photographs, and we need page number 16

1 of this exhibit on e-court, which is ERN 05016235.

2 Your Honours, maybe in order to save time, I have photographs here

3 and we can put them on the ELMO.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It would be better to put

5 them on the overhead projector.

6 MR. BOS:

7 Q. If you could look first at photograph number 16. Well, there you

8 go. It's also on the ELMO now. Witness, do you recognise this

9 photograph?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. What does it depict?

12 A. You can see the entrance wound on my shoulder. Well, not my

13 shoulder but the place I was hit, underneath the right shoulder blade.

14 Q. If we could now move to the next photograph which is underneath

15 that one. And can we move to the ELMO.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have an IC number for the

17 first photograph, Mr. Registrar, the entrance wound. The first

18 photograph, Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 282, Your

20 Honours.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And an IC number for

22 the exit wound. The one we have up on our screen.

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... IC 283, Your

24 Honours.

25 MR. BOS:

1 Q. Just, Witness, what we see here on the photograph, what does this

2 depict, this second photograph?

3 A. This photograph depicts the exit wound.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Each Defence team

7 has 10 minutes. Mr. Stewart.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:

10 Q. Witness, the part of your statement that you have withdrawn in the

11 proofing session is this, just remind you, that a man called Refik Saric

12 had been visiting us at the station, had been there for about an hour,

13 then he decided to leave. He'd only been gone a few seconds.

14 Now, I just want to point out to you that there are four points

15 there. He had been visiting the station. He had been there for about an

16 hour. He decided to leave. He'd only been gone a few seconds before the

17 incident that you then describe. How did you come to mistakenly give such

18 a clear statement on four points and sign it in that statement, given that

19 you now say it's not correct?

20 A. Well, please believe me when I say that a lot of time has gone by

21 since then and I had forgotten a lot of things. I tried to forget them,

22 did my best to. So I'd forgotten a lot of things at that time except for

23 my own wounding. I never forgot that.

24 Q. All right.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, for your

1 information, the Appeals Chamber already dealt with this type of

2 discrepancy and clearly indicated that it is possible that with the

3 passage of time and the facts a witness can vary in what he says.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perfectly correct, which is why we very

5 often don't pick up such points, but as a general principle -- I leave it

6 and move on, Your Honour.

7 Q. Paragraph -- well, it's my paragraph 20. You also, when you

8 signed the statement, said you had medical records for your injuries but

9 at that time said, "I have no idea where they are." Had you lost them,

10 mislaid them before you were ever interviewed by anybody connected with

11 this Tribunal?

12 A. I never had those documents in my hands, in my possession, and

13 that's why I said what I did. That's why I told the investigators that I

14 had no papers in that connection.

15 Q. Have you ever made any attempt to get hold of any medical records?

16 A. No, I have not.

17 Q. All right. Let's go back to the incident then. You -- you say

18 you heard someone screaming. You went looking. You saw Saric standing

19 hunched over. "I could see that he was bleeding on the hand where he had

20 been hit by a sniper."

21 At that point, you had no idea at all, did you, whether he had

22 been hit by a sniper or not?

23 A. No. I just heard the scream, the moan, and it was only when I got

24 outside that I saw what had happened.

25 Q. And then you describe -- of course he'd already been shot. You

1 described yourself being shot, and then you refer to another shot that you

2 say was fired at you, went over your head and hit a wall. So three shots.

3 Have any of those three bullets, as we must assume they are, ever been

4 recovered?

5 A. As far as I know, no.

6 Q. Was any search ever undertaken on the day or any other time that

7 you're aware of for those bullets?

8 A. As far as I know, no.

9 Q. Now, you made the correction to your statement that I asked you

10 about a few minutes ago but can I be absolutely clear? Apart from the

11 date which you corrected and apart from the business of Mr. Saric visiting

12 the station, you stand by every single word in your statement, do you?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. In your statement you were asked apparently, specifically, in

15 terms -- and you were talking about the person that shot you, you said, "I

16 have no idea where the sniper had fired his bullets from." So can we take

17 it that, although you've been shown photographs this morning and although

18 you've indicated possibilities, it remains the position that you

19 personally simply have no idea where the shot came from?

20 A. Yes. I said that I think it was in 2004, that I wasn't sure where

21 the bullet came from or who did the firing.

22 Q. In your statement you also refer to another incident relating

23 to -- are we -- well, another incident. Do you know -- I'm just not

24 entirely comfortable, Your Honour, whether I should say the name. We're

25 in open session. I don't want the witness to be under any

1 misunderstanding what it is.

2 Do you remember you referred to an incident much later where a

3 tanker was parked on the pavement outside the station, same street but

4 much later on. And then you say there'd been a few rifle shots, and this

5 is a colleague of yours that unhappily died. Do you know which incident

6 I'm talking about, do you?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Thank you. And you said there that there had been -- you had

9 been -- the tanker was parked on the pavement. You were at work

10 apparently. You said there had been a few rifle shots and then I heard

11 him say he was shot. "I went outside and we couldn't see him straight

12 away." Over what period did those rifle shots occur? Do you remember

13 that?

14 A. I didn't understand your question fully. Can you repeat it? I

15 apologise.

16 Q. I'll move on. You went outside, then, when you heard the shot.

17 You were engaged weren't you straight away of course in trying to help,

18 immediately help your unfortunate colleague and get him out of harm's way

19 and get him to hospital. That was your priority task wasn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You didn't, yourself, conduct any inspection at all of the wound.

22 You just saw it was a very unpleasant wound. That's correct, isn't it?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Now, my last question probably, depending on the answer. My last

25 question: You say that the area where you were shot was not normally a

1 dangerous place to be. This is your statement. You've not seen snipers

2 firing there before. "I didn't see them firing there afterwards." So it

3 follows that whatever the location from which this sniper fired at you,

4 you say it was a sniper, whatever the location from where that shot was

5 fired, you personally have no knowledge of that location ever having been

6 used before for firing or ever being used afterwards. That's correct,

7 isn't it?

8 A. Yes that is correct.

9 MR. STEWART: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next Defence team.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no

12 questions for this witness, and we have given our time to the Praljak

13 Defence.

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have also

15 placed our time at the disposal of the Praljak Defence.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: No questions, Mr. President. Thank you very much.

17 We wish to thank the gentleman for coming here to give his evidence.

18 MR. MURPHY: We have no questions, Your Honour.

19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, General Praljak has

20 expressed the wish to ask a few questions to start off with, and I might

21 have a few at the end.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Just a moment,

23 please. The Judges have a question.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, my question follows on

25 from what Mr. Stewart was asking you. The spot, the location where the

1 incident took place wasn't dangerous but did it become dangerous

2 afterwards? After you and your colleague were shot, were there other

3 incidents that took place in the same spot? That's my first question.

4 And, secondly, did the shots target people from coming out of the place

5 you were in, from the fire station there 15 metres away, did they

6 consistently target people coming out of that building, those premises?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before that, the sniper didn't shoot

8 at that spot at all. Up until that day when Mr. Saric and I, myself, were

9 hit. After that, another man was shot nearby. I don't know the name. Do

10 I need to say the name in open session? Can I say the name? Afterwards

11 there were no other incidents, no other shooting or anything. Beforehand,

12 that wasn't a dangerous place. It wasn't targeted ever before. We passed

13 by that way very often and it was never targeted until that particular

14 day.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

16 Honours.

17 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

18 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I can't use your name, so I'll just say good

19 afternoon.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. We're very simply going to go through a number of photographs

22 which were taken from different positions round that location. You are an

23 inhabitant of Mostar, a local. I'm sure you know the situation very well.

24 I do up to a point too. So may we have those photographs placed on the

25 overhead projector and we'll take them one by one. Once the photographs

1 are on the ELMO, I'll continue.

2 That is the first photograph, and you'll agree with me, or not

3 agree with me, when I say that this photograph was taken from the corner

4 of Brkic and Marsal Tito Street, the right corner if you're looking

5 westward?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And as the previous photograph showed, that's the spot where you

8 were wounded.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, would you take up the marker pen handed to you by the usher

11 and put a cross where that was.

12 A. Let me just make this clear. I was further up. Not that

13 position. You mean where I was wounded? It wasn't here. It was further

14 up.

15 Q. Well, let's look at the next photograph. Can we have the next

16 photograph on the ELMO, please.

17 A. That's not as good either.

18 Q. Let's go back to the first photograph. Just show us where the

19 fire brigade was, the fire station. And you can put a number 1 there.

20 A. [Marks]. It's behind the wall.

21 Q. Right. Behind the wall. You can put an arrow showing the

22 entrance into the fire station.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Would you now, roughly, and we saw this on the previous

25 photograph, mark the distance from the wall, the place where you were

1 wounded. Is that halfway between the street and the wall, nearer the

2 wall? Is that right?

3 A. It was a little closer to the wall.

4 Q. Well, would you roughly mark that spot. Put an arrow, please,

5 where you were wounded, where you were hit.

6 A. Do you want an X?

7 Q. Put the number 2 then. Number 2.

8 A. [Marks]. But it's further forward.

9 Q. All right. Place an arrow, then, in the direction.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. You're welcome.

13 Q. Are we going to have IC numbers now or afterwards?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit number IC 284, Your Honours.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Is it necessary for the

17 gentleman to place his initials there?

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Put down DB, please,

19 Witness.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we see the

22 next photograph now, please.

23 Q. This is taken from a similar spot, and we see to the left the

24 Hasan Brkic Street; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Now, in the middle, do we see a building in the distance?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Will you agree that this is Neretva Hotel?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you mark it with 1.

6 A. You mean Neretva Hotel?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And just place your initials, DB, on the photo.

10 A. [Marks]

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we have an IC number?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm looking at this

13 photo. You've just marked Neretva Hotel. I wonder, if there was a

14 sharpshooter in the hotel, how come that you were shot in the spot where

15 you were shot? Can you explain that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have no explanation.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I will ask you further. Was the Neretva Hotel torched when the

19 Serbs were on the right bank of the Neretva?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Was the Neretva Hotel on the left bank of the Neretva River?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. So it was on the left bank. At the time when you were wounded,

24 was that hotel on the left bank under the control of the BH army?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Thank you very much. Next photo, please.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have a number?

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can you place your initials

4 at the bottom.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: IC number 285, Your Honours.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. It's the same photograph. Do we see again Hotel Neretva in the

9 distance?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you mark it with 1?

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. And initials DB.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And that's on the right side, the entrance to the fire station.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Place a arrow and number 2 there.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. IC number, please?

20 THE REGISTRAR: IC 286, Your Honours.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.

22 Q. This is a photograph taken from such an angle as to show Marsal

23 Tito Street, the pavement where you were injured, and the corner of Hasan

24 Brkic street.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Tell me, where did the bullet hit, the second bullet?

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. The wall; right? Put a number 1.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Mark the direction of the Marsal Tito Street, left and right.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And to the right. That's the road that goes up. A larger arrow.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. And this at a 90-degree angle, is Hasan Brkic street?

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Mark it MS HB. Sorry, MT, Marsal Tito Street, and HB.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Can you show us on this photo where you were wounded?

14 A. I can.

15 Q. Show us.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And put a number 1 there.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. And your initials again, please.

20 A. At the bottom.

21 Q. Right.

22 A. [Marks]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 287, Your

25 Honours.

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next photograph,

2 please. Turn it around.

3 Q. Sir, this is something that we see from the west side of Mostar

4 and the west bank of Neretva. We look across the Marsal Tito bridge at

5 Musala and the Hasan Brkic street; correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Was Marsal Tito bridge destroyed in 1992 in May by the Serbs?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the right side, is there something that the people of Mostar

10 call Banja?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Put a number 1 there.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. On the left side, is that the Neretva Hotel? Mark it with 2,

15 please.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. On the right side behind Banja, is that the music school?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mark it as the music school.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Further in the distance below the mosque was a travel agent,

22 Putnik. Mark it, please.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Now, along the road as we go across the Marsal Tito Street, if you

25 go to the left you enter Hasan Brkic street. Can you mark that route.

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Yes. Show us the bend and then -- right. That's it.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. So that is number 5, please.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Now just tell me one more thing. At the time when the Yugoslav

7 People's Army and its reservists came to Mostar, was Banja burned down?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was the music school destroyed and burned down?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Hotel Neretva?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The travel agent Putnik, were they burned down?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Place your initials there, please.

16 A. [Marks]

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And can I have a number,

18 please.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 288, Your

20 Honours.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.

22 Q. This is the same thing closer up. Please show us how you enter

23 Hasan Brkic street, again going across the bridge and taking the same

24 route.

25 A. [Marks]

1 Q. Follow the road. Follow the road. The road is to the left, more

2 to the left. That's it.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Again, put your initials there.

5 A. [Marks]

6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Number, please.

7 Q. On the right-hand side, what we see here is the music academy;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need a number.

11 THE REGISTRAR: IC 289, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Place number 2 on the music

13 academy.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Thank you. Next photograph, please. We're now looking from the

17 opposite side, from the east side to the west side, and we'll take it

18 again one by one. This dilapidated building, is that the Neretva Hotel?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Please mark it with a 1.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. On the left side, is that Banja?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mark it with 2.

25 A. [Marks]

1 Q. What we see up there at the top, this large building behind the

2 mosque, was that Hit, a residential building?

3 A. No. It was a bank, Sarajevo bank.

4 Q. Mark it, please, with a number.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And now draw an arrow to mark the route you would take to go to

7 the right bank from Hasan Brkic Street across Tito Bridge, straight ahead

8 towards the west side.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Now, this building you marked with a 3 and the building leaning on

11 it, were they on the east side of the Bulevar or on the west side of the

12 Bulevar? Were they under the control of the army of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina at the time when you were wounded? Those buildings opposite

14 the high school, were they opposite the high school?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So they were on the side of the Bulevar controlled by the army of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Next photograph, please. And put your initials there.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. DB and an IC number?

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 290, Your

23 Honours.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to take our break now.

25 30 minutes this time because we need to make a redaction. So we are going

1 to resume at 10 past 1.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to

5 Mr. Praljak again, I just had an order issued for redaction because there

6 were elements that could identify the witness. I had good news a moment

7 ago, namely that when we have problems with redaction, we no longer have

8 to take 30-minute breaks. Twenty minutes is enough.

9 Mr. Praljak.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe we should

11 move back into private session while I finish with these.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session.

13 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, we're going to

25 have the third witness of the day brought in.

1 [The witness enters court]

2 WITNESS: DZEVAD HADZIZUKIC

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'm going

5 to check first that you can hear the interpretation. If you can, tell me,

6 please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you please stand and take

9 the solemn declaration. For the transcript, I would like to ask you for

10 your first name, last name, and date of birth.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dzevad Hadzizukic, the 30th of

12 September, 1944.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your current

14 occupation?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in a bank, in the commercial

16 bank in Mostar. I graduated from the higher school of economics and

17 commerce.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Have you ever

19 testified before a tribunal on the events that took place in your country

20 or is this the first time you're testifying?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would you go ahead

23 and read the solemn declaration, please, sir.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

2 Just some explanation. You're going to start off by being asked

3 questions by the Prosecution and Mr. Scott, and after that the Defence

4 might be asking you questions within the framework of the

5 cross-examination. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be able to complete

6 all that today, which means you'll have to come back at 9.00 tomorrow

7 morning.

8 Mr. Scott, you have the floor.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon to

10 everyone in the courtroom.

11 Examination by Mr. Scott:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. As the President just explained to you, sir, we only have a few

15 minutes to begin today, so it's -- we will be going over into tomorrow,

16 just so you are further aware of that.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, let me quickly read the summary

18 concerning this witness, which is quite brief, actually.

19 The witness lived in Tekija, East Mostar, which was a residential

20 area. On the 6th of June, 1993, while at home, the witness heard the

21 sounds of three single shots and something falling down on the terrace.

22 When he went outside, he saw his wife lying on her back on the small

23 terrace. She had been killed by a single sniper shot in the head.

24 The witness explains that the Croatian Defence Council was

25 controlling the nearby Mount Hum and the Stotina area and that they had

1 positioned snipers there. The witness was told about the shooting of two

2 other women at approximately the same time as his wife's death by a

3 Stotina positioned Croatian Defence Council sniper. One of the women,

4 this is one of the other two women, was wounded. The other was killed.

5 The witness suspects that this is the reason why he heard two shots and

6 not just the one; the other two shots and not just the one that killed his

7 wife.

8 And if I can have the usher's assistance so we can try to move as

9 quickly as possible to just provide the bundle of documents to the

10 witness.

11 Q. Sir, I have placed before you a set of documents that have tab

12 numbers there you will see, and I will be directing your attention to

13 various of those documents as we proceed.

14 Is it correct, sir, that on approximately the 30th of August,

15 2001, you provided a statement to investigators of this Tribunal?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. If I can please ask you to look in the first bundle at Exhibit

18 P 09859. In the first part of that document you will see the English

19 language version, and behind that document you will see the Bosnian

20 language version, please, if you have that.

21 Just to orient you, sir, and confirm, can you see that the date of

22 that statement is the 30th of August, 2001? It should be on the first

23 page of the Bosnian language version. About halfway down the page you'll

24 probably see an entry that says "Date of interview."

25 A. Yes, that's right. The 30th of August, 2001.

1 Q. And if you'll look at the last page of the English version, sir,

2 I'll direct your attention in a moment to the Bosnian version, but if you

3 can look, please, first at the English language version. The last page.

4 Can you confirm to us, sir, that that document bears your handwritten

5 signature?

6 A. Yes, I can. This is my signature.

7 Q. Let me just ask you a few questions, sir. At the time that you

8 were interviewed and signed your written statement, did you tell the truth

9 to the best of your ability?

10 A. I did tell the truth.

11 Q. Did you answer the questions put to you freely, that is, without

12 any coercion or duress?

13 A. Of course, of my own free will.

14 Q. And is it correct, sir, that when the interview was completed,

15 this statement, the English version that you now have in front of you,

16 that was read back to you in your own language, and after it was read back

17 to you you signed the statement as you indicated a moment ago; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Now, since arriving in The Hague, sir, have you also had a chance

21 to look now at a Bosnian version or translation of your statement, and do

22 you have that in front of you?

23 A. I did have an opportunity, yes.

24 Q. Are there any changes that you would like to make to that

25 statement, the statement given in August 2001, now that you've had a

1 chance to review it in the Bosnian language or because you've thought

2 about it further or had a different memory? Is there anything you would

3 like to change about that statement?

4 A. Well, no. For the most part, no, that's how it was.

5 Q. All right. Well, I want to make sure if there's anything you

6 would like to change, that you feel it's important to change that you feel

7 you have the opportunity to do that. Is the statement accurate and are

8 you happy to live with the statement as it currently is?

9 A. Well, yes, I am.

10 Q. Sir, can I ask you that -- because we're trying to use the time in

11 court as efficiently as possible, I may not take you through -- in fact, I

12 will not take you through every detail of your statement, but let me ask

13 you, if I were to ask you questions about the content of your statement

14 today in court, as you sit here today, would you gave the same answer --

15 same information as is reflected in the statement that you signed?

16 A. Yes, I would give the same statement.

17 Q. All right. If we can just move forward to some of the most

18 directly pertinent points then. Sir, is it correct that your wife, your

19 late wife, Arzemina Alihodzic was shot and killed at your home in Mostar

20 on the 6th of June, 1993.

21 A. Yes, my wife's surname was Alihodzic and not Hodzic, and she was

22 shot that day.

23 Q. My apology. And is it correct, sir, that wife's date of birth was

24 the 26th of March, 1952?

25 A. The 26th of March, yes, 1952, yes.

1 Q. Sir, I'm just asking you questions now as much as possible based

2 on your memory. You need not necessarily look at the statement, but if

3 you need to, please, say so. Is it correct then, sir, with date of birth,

4 that on the time your wife was killed on the 6th of June, 1995, that she

5 was 41 years old?

6 A. That's correct, yes.

7 Q. Can you tell the Judges approximately what time on the 6th of

8 June, 1993, was your wife shot?

9 A. My wife was shot at about 1700 hours.

10 Q. And briefly, sir, because again we need not cover every detail of

11 the statement, but of course if the Judges or the Defence want to ask

12 additional questions they will, but can you tell us briefly, where was

13 your wife located? Where was she standing, moving, at the time that she

14 was shot?

15 A. My wife had gone out of the house, out onto the terrace to bring

16 in some coffee so that she could make us coffee from freshly ground and

17 roasted coffee beans. So she went outside and on the steps when I heard

18 shots and a blunt blow, probably to her head, because here on her face

19 when she was hit she had a sort of bruise or signs of blood, and I found

20 her lying down on the terrace, lying on her back. Her head was turned

21 east and her legs were facing west. That's it.

22 Q. Could you tell us, please, when you say on a terrace, which floor

23 of the building or which level of this building was the terrace located

24 on? Ground, first, second, what have you?

25 A. I have a smaller one and a bigger one. You go down the steps onto

1 the first terrace, then the second terrace to the left into the house. So

2 that's the small terrace and the big terrace. And she was on that sort of

3 first-floor level. On the terrace on the first-floor level.

4 Q. And could you tell the Judges, please, the terrace that was on --

5 connected to your home, to your apartment, was that on the west side of

6 your home?

7 A. Yes. It's on the west side of my home.

8 Q. And can you tell the Judges whether in June of 1993, standing on

9 that terrace looking to the west, could you see the river Neretva?

10 A. You can't see the river Neretva, but across the river you can see.

11 The river is out of sight because it's lower down. So I can't see the

12 river, but I can see the other bank. You can't see the river because of

13 the trees and the houses that are in the way.

14 Q. You said you could see the other side, the other bank. Could you

15 see from your terrace West Mostar, the west side of Mostar?

16 A. From my terrace you can see the west side of town. You can see

17 the Bulevar which runs from Mostar towards Rodoc. I can see the Bulevar,

18 and I can see Brkic bridge too. Now, there are some houses there so I

19 can't see it now, but otherwise Stotina and Brkic bridge and the north

20 part of Mostar, I can see all that from my terrace.

21 Q. Let's me just ask you, sir, so the record is very, very clear.

22 What I'd like to focus your attention on now, when you give this

23 information, is as things existed as it was in June 1993, if we get to a

24 point we have to talk about anything that has changed since then, I will

25 ask you about that.

1 Is it correct, sir, that your house was located in a neighbourhood

2 called Tekija?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was the address in fact Tekija 2A?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you consider this to be a residential area?

7 A. It's an exclusively residential area.

8 Q. Can you tell the Judges what the weather was at the time of -- the

9 time your wife was shot on the -- about 5.00 in the afternoon on the 6th

10 of June?

11 A. It was a clear day, sunny, and very hot.

12 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, was there any -- to your

13 knowledge, was there any -- well, first of all, were there any military

14 positions anywhere close to your apartment on the 6th of June, 1993?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Was there any combat or activity, fighting activity, going on in

17 the vicinity of your home on the 6th of June, 1993?

18 A. No. It was a clear, calm day.

19 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, was your wife a civilian or did

20 she have some position in the military?

21 A. She had no position in the military. She was a civilian.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, may we have a

23 look at the photograph of Mostar, please, on our screens.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. SCOTT:

1 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, what your wife was wearing at the

2 time that she was shot?

3 A. My wife was wearing a white short-sleeved shirt with a white skirt

4 with some large pink flowers on it, a rather long skirt. The Gypsy-style

5 type, Gypsy-style skirt.

6 Q. When you say it had large, pink flowers on it, do you have any

7 further recollection of how large these flowers were, if you do?

8 A. Well, maybe seven, eight, nine centimetres. I have no idea. I'm

9 not quite sure what the diameter was, but a large print, flower print.

10 Q. At around 5.00, at the time your wife was shot, did you hear

11 gunshots?

12 A. I heard those three shots. When she went out, a minute or two

13 later I heard the shots because she stayed on the terrace for a moment.

14 So I heard three shots.

15 Q. And what -- if you can recall, what was the approximate time

16 period or the time span of the three shots, that is, the lapse of time

17 between the first shot and the third shot, approximately?

18 A. Well, probably all three shots happened in the space of 20 seconds

19 maybe, 10, 15, 20 seconds, 10 seconds.

20 Q. And can you tell the Judges, please, where on her body your wife

21 was struck by the bullet that killed her?

22 A. She was struck in the head, behind her left ear. It was an

23 entrance wound. The entrance wound was there, and the brain matter

24 splattered.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you have a map in front of

1 you. Could you indicate the location of your house. You could perhaps

2 place a cross with the marker pen.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's roughly here. This part here.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. An IC number,

5 please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 296, Your

7 Honours.

8 MR. SCOTT:

9 Q. Witness, before we leave that document, could you also put your

10 initials on that same document there, perhaps in the lower right corner

11 somewhere.

12 A. [Marks]

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, no matter how quickly I would move,

14 there would be no way that I can finish in the next five minutes. I don't

15 know what the Court's pleasure is. I'd like to change to a slightly

16 different topic.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. We're going to

18 stop there for the day. There's another trial in the afternoon after us.

19 So to avoid having any problems with them, we'll stop there.

20 It's quarter to 2.00. Sir, unfortunately, as I said a moment ago,

21 you will have to come back tomorrow morning at 9.00. Between now and

22 then, please, do not have any contacts with the Prosecution or members of

23 the Defence teams.

24 And I invite everyone to reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9.00.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day

3 of February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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