1 Thursday, 1 February 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, actually today,
7 call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Jadranko Prlic et al.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar. I
11 would like to say good morning to all those in the courtroom, the witness
12 who is going to complete his testimony today. So without further ado, I
13 give the floor to Mr. Mundis, and to ask him to speed up as much as
15 WITNESS: DZEVAD HADZIZUKIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Scott: [Continued]
18 Q. Good morning, sir.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. I owe you a bit of an apology yesterday. We were at the end of
21 the day and rushing a bit. I want to start this morning by, first of all,
22 expressing my condolences on the loss of your wife. And I know this must
23 be a difficult thing for you to talk about.
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. I apologise for that. Sir, we had left yesterday, in fact, you
1 had just talked about, I think, the location on her body where your wife
2 had been shot, and I believe you had indicated that the bullet entered her
3 body in her head behind her left ear; is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Now, in a few moments we're going to be looking at some video
6 material. I can ask you more specific questions, if need be at that time
7 and it may be more helpful when we have the pictures in front of us. So I
8 will skip over any more details about that in a moment. Based on
9 everything you knew at the time and what you could observe at the time
10 that your wife was killed on the 6th of June, 1993, can you tell the
11 Judges where you believe the shot came from, the location that the shot
12 came from which struck your wife?
13 A. The bullet that hit my wife came from Stotina. I'm 100 per cent
14 sure. And I can elaborate if you wish.
15 Q. Please do, and I will ask you to elaborate, and in doing so, let
16 me ask you, prior to the 6th of June, 1993, had you seen any activity or
17 positions at that location?
18 A. In that location there had been activities going on for a long
19 time, bunkers were fortified. It was fortified with sacks and it was
20 visible with a naked eye. I saw HVO soldiers walking around there because
21 for a while we fought against the Serbs together. I knew many people
22 there. They were my neighbours and after that we still exchanged jokes,
23 we made fun together, we talked. There was a lot of activity going on.
24 That's the point.
25 Q. When you say you exchanged jokes, could you actually, over the
1 distance to Stotina, could you actually carry out voice communications, I
2 mean, with a loud voice? Is that what you're telling us?
3 A. Certainly while we were together the Brkic bridge was already
4 destroyed, so we shouted at each other. They shouted, "You Balijas." We
5 shouted, "You Ustashas," et cetera. And people fished at that time in
6 Mostar, they bathed in the Neretva river. It was hot in those summer
7 months. And we saw each other. We didn't shoot each other. My wife was
8 the first to be hit by a sniper in that part of town.
9 Q. That was my next question to you based on what you just said. Can
10 you tell us, prior to the 6th of June when your wife was shot, had there
11 been any sniping activity directly against civilians in that area before?
12 A. There had been incidents where people were wounded, but nobody had
13 been killed at that time.
14 Q. And before we continue on, can you tell the Judges as best you can
15 remember, estimate the approximate distance between the location where
16 your wife was shot and this position at Stotina, approximately?
17 A. Approximately 400, 420 metres.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we were listening
19 carefully to you, and what you are saying is very important. We are
20 finding out, because this is the first time we are hearing this, that at
21 this position of Stotina, there were bunkers. This is the first time we
22 hear of it. So my question is, those people that were 400 metres away
23 from you, they were civilians or they were military troops?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were uniformed troops, and
25 maybe I didn't put it very well, but at this position there were bunkers
1 fortified with sandbags. It was a fortification with sandbags.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that from
3 the place you were at, from your house, you saw military men in uniform.
4 My question is, they belonged to what army?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were soldiers of the HVO. The
6 Croatian Defence Council.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you know precisely to which
8 unit they belonged?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not. I know they were
10 probably from down there in Rodoc, residents of Rodoc. I don't know what
11 kind of deployment they had, what kind of shifts, because they had shifts,
12 relieving each other at Hum, at Stotina.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you said to the Prosecutor a
14 moment ago that you had exchanges with them.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we had verbal duels.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The only thing that we the
17 Judges are interested in is where the bullet came from, because that is
18 the point on which we have to decide in our judgement, where the bullet
19 came from. So from your house, from your location, could a bullet have
20 come from another location than Stotina?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A shot could have come from Hum, but
22 I know for sure, I know with certainty, that Opina, the Brkic bridge and
23 the area under the cemetery where I live, Mejdan, and the Tekija Street
24 were covered by Stotina. Whereas Hum covered an area below Razvitak
25 company and I know that from the Glas bank in Mostar, in Zuvanica Street,
1 another area across the Tito Bridge was targeted. I had that knowledge
2 before my wife was killed and after my wife was killed, and obviously
3 before and after her death I experienced a lot of things and I saw a lot.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the distance between
5 your house and Hum, as the crow flies?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, maybe Hum is a hill
7 perhaps 400 metres high, and if you draw a diagonal, it could be 100
8 metres, 200 metres. What could be the distance between Stotina and Hum,
9 that is it, approximately.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You did not understand me well.
11 From the terrace of your house, if I drew a straight line to Hum, what
12 would be the distance between your terrace and Hum?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's say 600 metres. I'm not
14 an expert in these matters.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. At Hum, to the best
16 of your knowledge, were there any troops?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lots of troops. At Hum there was a
18 bunker and I watched that bunker, I saw it being blown up when it was hit.
19 Two HVO soldiers died on that occasion. Five HVO soldiers died on that
20 occasion, that's the information we got on this side.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told me that there was --
22 there were troops there and you answered my next question in advance. To
23 what army did the troops at Hum belong, those who were approximately 600
24 metres away from your terrace?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, HVO.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.
2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could have the map,
3 please, that the witness marked yesterday. A map was marked at the
4 request of the President. If we could use that same map again, please.
5 Sorry, I didn't get the IC number.
6 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we can
7 be of assistance. IC 296.
8 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much, counsel. It's coming up in
10 Q. Sir, if you can see in front of you on the screen -- can you see a
11 map on the screen in front of you now?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 Q. This is the same map that you marked yesterday. You will see the
14 markings. Could I ask you now - you may need the usher's assistance,
15 please - as best you can on the map, and I realise -- well, I won't say
16 any more. Can you just mark as best you can where the Stotina position
17 was located as best you are able on this particular map?
18 A. Stotina is exactly just above the Hasan Brkic bridge. This fly
19 over coming in here and just above it is Stotina.
20 Q. Since we now have two markings on the map, can I please ask you,
21 the first marking in red that you made yesterday, could I ask you to mark
22 that with a number 1?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And can I ask you, please, to mark the Stotina location number 2?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You could also indicate Hum on
3 the map, Witness.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stotina is a little lower. Hum
5 overlooks Mostar around here. And this is the slope that goes down to the
6 harbour bridge, Lucki Most.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am a very precise person,
8 Witness, so when I look at the map, I see Stotina and Hum. But before
9 that I see Donja Mala, which is -- Donja Mahala, which is closer. That
10 geographic area, was it covered by the BH Army to the best of your
11 knowledge, or the HVO?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the HVO held the line up
13 to Stotina. Donja Mahala and the Bulevar were under the control of the BH
14 Army. At Hum there were also HVO soldiers.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So at Mahala that we see here
16 next to the river, there are houses. Would it have been technically
17 possible for an individual, X, located in Donja Mahala, to target your
18 house, to shoot at your house?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the lower part of Donja Mahala,
20 yes. That part is called Orucluk.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are saying that it is
22 possible from that area you indicated for a person to shoot at your
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I know this is a very
1 painful testimony for you, but I would like to ask you, from Stotina where
2 the shot could have come from to your house is an area through which the
3 front line passed, didn't it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Could you show us on the map?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. Stotina is here, and the
7 separation line -- shall I continue?
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you draw the separation
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The separation line was around here.
11 It went like this. And down the Bulevar. The other side, next to the
12 Neretva River belonged to the HVO. This side here was held by the BH
13 Army, all the way up to the lines, to the Bulevar. All the way up to Hit
14 and then it went down Santici Street. Whereas on this side, this whole
15 side was in its entirety under the control of the BH Army all the way up
16 to Santic Street to an area we call Celovina. You pass by Cernica, the
17 Alex Santic Street, up to this area here, Celovina. All that was a line
18 held by the BH Army.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I just want to ask one
20 last question, because the concern of this Trial Chamber is of course to
21 know who is responsible for those tragic shootings and the intentions of
22 those persons of course. In the vicinity of your house, were there any
23 troops, garrison or were there any patrols? And concerning the shot that
24 hit your wife, could you have confused the uniforms?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right below my house there was the
1 South Camp, and in the South Camp BH Army soldiers were stationed. And to
2 confuse my wife's clothing with a uniform is absolutely impossible.
3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just brought in a new
5 element. Every time the Judges ask a question a new element occurs. You
6 said that around 400 metres away from you there was the South Camp of the
7 BH Army, which raises in my mind another question, because I have to be
8 very precise in my work.
9 So at Stotina, was it possible to shoot from there to the side
10 where the BH Army was at South Camp and were there any shootings from
11 Stotina towards or targeting the South Camp of the BH Army?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you that Stotina position
13 covered the area around my house and further up, part of the Hasan Brkic
14 bridge and the South Camp. You could control the whole area downstream.
15 Stotina is a hill, perhaps 30 or 40 metres high, maybe a bit higher at
16 certain points. And it gave a very good view. The South Camp is
17 perfectly visible. The visibility is good in all directions, towards my
18 house and towards the South Camp. However, my house and the South Camp
19 are at opposite sides of the hill, so if somebody were shooting at the
20 South Camp, that bullet could certainly not stray towards my house.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just answered, your
22 house was not on the direct trajectory of a bullet that was directed at
23 the South Camp from Stotina?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, my house was not between the
25 camp and Stotina. My house was to the north, 400 metres to the north. It
1 was not in the way at all.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So here is one
3 theory that we've elucidated.
4 Mr. Scott.
5 MR. SCOTT:
6 Q. Before we go on to the videos, Witness, just a couple of final
7 questions about what happened around the 6th of June, 1993. Is it
8 correct, sir, that the funeral for your wife was the night of the
9 following day, if I understood correctly, on the night between the 7th and
10 8th of June? Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And can you tell the Judges, please, why the funeral was held at
14 A. After the death of my wife, and I have to say the cemetery is
15 about 50 metres away from my house, I wanted to bury her next to her
16 father, and her father is buried in the middle of the Saric Harem which is
17 the name of the cemetery and we had to dig the grave by night because
18 there was shooting from up there at Hum, so we dug the grave by night and
19 the next night we buried my wife under the cover the dark.
20 Q. And can you tell us, please, at the time your wife's funeral
21 whether the funeral gathering was fired on during the funeral?
22 A. When we were burying my wife, there was shooting from Hum from a
23 PAM, which is an anti-aircraft machine-gun, 12.7 millimetres, a lot of the
24 bullets were the kind that light up the area around, so we could see where
25 the bullets were coming from.
1 Q. And these bullets, which I think we could describe perhaps on what
2 you have said including tracer rounds, how close were these shots or was
3 this fire coming to the funeral party itself?
4 A. Well, not so close. They fell 100 metres away from us, maybe it
5 was an attempt to intimidate us or maybe they couldn't see us very well.
6 I can't say.
7 Q. Now, can you just finally tell us this: Around the time that your
8 wife was shot and killed, did you learn there were any other shootings
9 victims in that vicinity around the same time?
10 A. When I went the next day to Radio Mostar to ask them to announce
11 the death of my wife and the funeral time, then I heard from the people
12 there that somebody else had been hit in Donja Mahala, some of them were
13 wounded or rather one woman was wounded or maybe she was killed, but
14 anyway, someone was wounded and someone was killed. That was the
15 information I received.
16 Q. All right. If we can then please show the video. We're going to
17 show you a videoclip, sir. It's quite short. We may need to show it --
18 they go rather quickly; we may have to show it more than once. It's
19 Exhibit P 09140, and it's -- for those who want to follow the
20 transcript -- there's a very short transcript, it's on page 2 out of 7.
21 [Videotape played]
22 "Investigator: Mr. Hadzizukic, could you, please, to the best of
23 your recollection, indicate where you found your wife when she was shot."
24 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, the witness seems to be
25 looking for something, or ...
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was looking for a pencil. But I
2 can see it now.
3 MR. SCOTT: All right. I apologise. Can we start the recording
4 over, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 "Investigator: Mr. Hadzizukic, could you, please, to the best of
7 your recollection, indicate where you found your wife when she was shot.
8 "Witness: [Indicates]
9 "Investigator: Could you please indicate on yourself where the
10 bullet had hit your wife?
11 "Witness: [Indicates]
12 "Investigator: To the best of your recollection, could you,
13 please, show the position in which you found the body of your wife when
14 she was killed.
15 "Witness: [Indicates]
16 "Investigator: Thank you. Now, Mr. Hadzizukic, I have an
17 additional question with respect to this house and with respect to that
18 house. Could you, please, tell us if these houses were there at the
19 moment that you your wife was shot?
20 "Witness: No.
21 "Investigator: Thank you very much."
22 MR. SCOTT: Could I, please, have the -- could we go back now to
23 the video where he indicated -- he pointed to his body as to the location
24 where his wife was shot.
25 [Videotape played]
1 "Investigator: Mr. Hadzizukic, could you, please, to the best of
2 your recollection, indicate where you found your wife when she was shot.
3 "Witness: [Indicates]
4 "Investigator: Thank you. Could you please indicate on yourself
5 where the bullet had hit your wife?
6 "Witness: [Indicates]"
7 MR. SCOTT: Can we stop, please.
8 Q. Sir, in the video now that we can see, you are pointing to a
9 location on your head behind the right ear. Your testimony yesterday and
10 the statement that you gave in 2001 indicates that the bullet struck your
11 wife behind her left ear. Do you want to explain the Judges the
12 difference between the pointing you're doing in the video and your
14 A. Well, yes, I can. I didn't understand the question. I'm right
15 handed by nature, so I put my right hand up and showed the place, and I
16 didn't think it was important to show the left or the right. She was
17 actually hit on the left side on this hard piece of bone behind the ear.
18 But I just, as a matter of course, put my right hand up because I'm right
19 handed. So I just wanted to show the place being behind the ear and I
20 wasn't paying attention to whether it was left or right.
21 Q. Could we, please, go forward then with the video and I have one
22 more question before we leave the video.
23 [Videotape played]
24 "Investigator: And to the best of your recollection, please
25 assume the position in which you find the body of your wife when she was
2 "Witness: [Indicates]"
3 MR. SCOTT: Can we stop there, please.
4 Q. Sir, yesterday, if I heard your testimony correctly, I may have
5 misheard, if I did I apologise, I think you may have indicated that you
6 thought yesterday that your wife's head was facing toward the east, that
7 is in the direction of the house. You will see that when you've given
8 this position in the video and actually -- as described in your statement
9 in 2001, you said the head was facing towards the west as you portray it
10 here. I didn't want to interrupt your testimony at the end of the day
11 yesterday, but can you clarify again that situation for us. Does this
12 refresh your recollection that the head was facing to the west?
13 A. Well, she was lying the way I'm lying here on the picture. Her
14 head was turned west towards Hum hill and Stotina.
15 Q. Thank you very much, sir. The next thing I'm going to show you,
16 please, is Exhibit P 09139, which is what we call the 360-degree
17 photograph. And what I'd like you to do, please, sir, is just watch it --
18 we're going to go in a full circle. Do you recall that when you were
19 interviewed at the time that the video clip was made that we just saw that
20 following that time the -- a tripod and a camera were placed on the spot
21 on the terrace where your wife was killed and that a series of photographs
22 were taken; is that correct?
23 A. I don't understand the question.
24 Q. Sir, do you recall that after the time when you -- the -- at the
25 time the video was taken, we saw a short video clip a moment ago. Do you
1 recall at that time that a tripod was set up on your terrace and some
2 additional photographs were taken?
3 A. Yes, I do remember that.
4 Q. All right. Please look at this video. Don't make any comments
5 initially. I'm going to make one full circle, and then I'm -- we will
6 circle again and I will ask you a couple of questions.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. SCOTT: Okay. Let's stop there for a moment.
9 Q. All right, sir, I'm about to start a second pass, if you will.
10 We're going to do the same thing again. What I would like you to do, sir,
11 please, is watch the photograph very carefully. When you see the location
12 from which you believe that the shot came from that killed your wife, tell
13 us to stop and I'll ask you a question or two about that. So we can start
14 again, please.
15 [Videotape played]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.
17 MR. SCOTT:
18 Q. Can you indicate by looking at the photograph -- strike that. Let
19 me start again. I think it will be simpler. If I could have the usher's
20 assistance. Your Honour, we have made a still photo with no markings on
21 it so the witness can make a hard copy.
22 Sir, first of all, can you see that the photograph that's been
23 placed on the ELMO is the same -- well, everyone in the courtroom, I
24 suppose, can see if you change to the ELMO. That the photograph on the
25 ELMO and the portion of the video we were looking at is roughly the same.
1 Using the marker that the usher will provide to you, sir, on the still
2 photograph that's on the ELMO, would you mark further the particular
3 location from which you believe the shot came, which killed your wife.
4 A. It could have been somewhere in this area.
5 Q. All right. Now, first of all -- let me ask you to mark that with
6 the number 1.
7 A. [Marks].
8 MR. SCOTT: And if we can have an IC number, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar, an IC
10 number, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this becomes IC number 297.
12 MR. SCOTT: I am advised, Your Honour, while I'm thinking about
13 it, that since the earlier map was marked again, that maybe we need a
14 second -- a different IC number for the second marking on the map. I
15 don't know if that's true, but if it is, then we need another number.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's have another IC
18 number on -- for the first map.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes then IC number 298.
20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
21 Q. Sir, you answered this question in the video, but I also wanted to
22 ask you in the courtroom, please. The place that you have now marked on
23 this photograph which is IC 297, the building that you have marked, you
24 have made a red circle roughly on a house about in the middle of the
25 picture. Was that house at that location in June 1993?
1 A. No.
2 Q. There is another house or -- that's even closer to us just off the
3 connected, in fact -- virtually connected to the terrace there. Was that
4 house at that location in June 1993?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can you tell the Judges, approximately, as best you can, when
7 those two buildings were built?
8 A. These houses were built almost at the same time; four, five, six
9 years ago, perhaps.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a question looking
11 at the photograph. Behind the two newly-built houses, I see a white
12 building with windows. There are apparently three floors to the building.
13 And from the terrace, one has the impression that that building over there
14 is a little higher up. In 1993, in the month of June, was that other
15 building there as well?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that building, was it in the
18 BH Army zone or the HVO zone.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was under BH Army control.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in June 1993, perhaps you
21 know this or not, what was in the building? Was it a residential
22 building? What kind of building was it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was a residential building
24 with tenants.
25 MR. SCOTT:
1 Q. Sir, if I can ask you, please, you've made a marking before on the
2 top of the circle which might be interpreted as a one, maybe you intended
3 it to be a 1, but can I just, please, ask you to mark somewhere around
4 that circle again something that's clearly a number 1.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And the location that the President was just talking about, the
7 building across -- across the way, can you mark that with a number 2,
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. Just to finish then very briefly with two exhibits.
11 And perhaps the usher can help you while he's there. If I can just ask
12 you to look ever so briefly at Exhibit 2655. It's in the bundle there.
13 Can you just confirm to us, sir, is this a death certificate issued by a
14 hospital in Mostar concerning the -- the death of your wife?
15 A. Yes, I can. That is the death certificate which was signed by a
16 lady doctor, Dr. Posic.
17 Q. And can I ask you to go to the next exhibit. If you just go in
18 the bundle to 9131. Can you just confirm to the Judges that this is a
19 further record concerning the death of your wife on the 6th of June, 1993,
20 an extract record made from the register of deaths?
21 A. Yes, I can do that. Yes, that is the register of deaths and the
22 extract about my wife's death.
23 Q. If you will please look at the -- before we finish, if you will
24 just please look at the date on the lower left corner of the
25 Bosnian-language version of the document, just so there is no confusion.
1 Is it correct, sir, that this particular extract, this particular record,
2 one-page record, was taken from the register and this record made on the
3 27th of April, 2004?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour, the Prosecution has no further
8 Sir, I want to thank you once again for coming to The Hague to
9 give your evidence.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Let's
11 start off with the cross-examination.
12 With respect to the visit of the UN Secretary-General, we are
13 going to take a break at 10.00 and resume at 10.30. In the next 10
14 minutes, who wishes to start off? Council Tomic.
15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 We have no questions for this Witness.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next Defence
19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have given our
20 time to the Praljak Defence.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
22 Honours. We have no questions for this gentleman. We wish to thank him
23 for coming to give his evidence. Thank you very much, sir.
24 MR. MURPHY: Good morning, Your Honours. We have no questions and
25 we are prepared to give our time to General Praljak should he require it.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Council Alaburic or
2 Mr. Stewart.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] According to the order, Mr. Praljak
4 has a few questions for the witness and perhaps I would have two or three
5 additional questions after that. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, how much time do
7 you need for your questions? I know that usually you ask very specific
8 and precise questions. So how much time do you need?
9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I don't
10 think I'll be able to get through them by 10.00. I'd like to show a few
11 photographs to make things clearer to the Trial Chamber and everybody else
12 in court.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Go ahead.
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, my screen
15 isn't working, the monitor isn't working here, but I will begin
17 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. You have to understand that it is very difficult for me to ask you
21 questions, to have to ask you questions, but unfortunately I do have to do
22 that in order to clarify the situation as much as is possible. It would
23 be better if somebody else could answer the questions, but there we have
25 May we have on the ELMO, Mr. Usher...
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, please.
2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I can start off with some other questions. Tell me, please,
4 Witness, an M 48 rifle, was that the standard type of weapon that the
5 Yugoslav People's Army had?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it a 7.9 millimetre calibre rifle?
8 A. I think that the rifle was a 7.62 calibre.
9 Q. All right. We're not going to debate the issue. But tell me,
10 does it fire individually so that it's not a semi-automatic rifle or an
11 automatic rifle, but you have to repeat and fire each individual time?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, could anybody buy that kind of rifle before the war and
14 during the war, if they had the money? Did things like that happen, that
15 people bought these kind of rifles?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And very often was it hunters that bought rifles of this kind with
18 a Zeiss optic sight or whatever and used it as a hunting carbine?
19 A. It was difficult up to the war.
20 Q. How about after the war and during the war?
21 A. It was probably easier then.
22 Q. So I think you and I agree on this point that that kind of weapon,
23 not only that weapon, but especially this particular weapon, could be
24 purchased and procured relatively easily on the market, both before the
25 war and in the war itself; is that correct? That anybody could buy this
1 kind of rifle if they had a few hundred German marks, right before the
2 war, let's say?
3 A. Well, it was difficult to do that before the war.
4 Q. I don't mean before the conflicts began, but when the Yugoslav
5 Peoples' Army came to Mostar, when the reservists came, when the clashes
6 and conflicts started, could you buy an M 48 rifle from a reservist, for
8 A. It was difficult to buy one from a reservists. I don't know of
9 anybody buying them from reservists.
10 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, can we take a look at a photograph,
11 but before that, tell me, please, was it possible to control regardless of
12 what you knew to control who had a rifle? We know that many people
13 purchased a rifle and kept them at home. Was it possible to control this
14 procurement of rifles, left, right anywhere?
15 A. Well, I spent the -- the whole war in Mostar, and lots of things
16 happened in Mostar.
17 Q. Now we have the photograph on our screens. Would you look at it.
18 I have been told that I did not get an answer to my question. That is to
19 say whether there were individual shots from the rifle and whether you had
20 to cock the rifle each time you wanted to shoot?
21 A. Yes, I did give an answer. And yes, you had to repeat and cock
22 the rifle every time you wanted to shoot from this M 48 rifle.
23 Q. Thank you. It doesn't seem to have been recorded but it is now.
24 Now, on this aerial photograph here, we can see Stotina, Hasan Brkic
25 bridge, and according to what I know, this is how the area under BH army
1 control looked like, what the deployment was like. It is in the
2 grey-green colour. Is what I have just said correct? Would you agree
3 with what I have said?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Then on the photograph, would you put a number 1 for the area that
6 is in the greenish colour and put a 1 there.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Right. So that is the area controlled by the BH Army. And the
9 left area, the darker area, could you put a number 2 there, please.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you. And draw a circle around these houses at Stotina, the
12 houses we can see, that's Stotina, I think. Draw a circle around that.
13 A. All this is Stotina.
14 Q. Right. That's right. And put a number 3 there.
15 A. And this is a small cafe over there.
16 Q. All right. Fine. Put 3 on Stotina.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you. Would you now -- can we now -- or rather, can I have
19 an IC number, Your Honours, for this photograph?
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the basis of this photograph,
21 can we see your house there? Does it show your house?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My house would be somewhere in this
23 area over here.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where you've drawn the dot, all
25 right. Put a number 4 by your house then, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Would you just put ...
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the next IC number is IC 299.
6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And your signature, please.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Place your initials on the
8 document, please, Witness.
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you, Witness. May we have the next photograph, please.
12 That's the same general area, but broader. So on this broader area, would
13 you once again put where the BH Army was and put a number 1 for the BH
14 Army, the HVO positions 2, please. And Stotina, number 3?
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Now, on this photograph, I see Saric Harem there, Saric cemetery.
17 Would you mark in your own house. Slowly. Take a good look and mark it
19 A. My house is exactly located on this spot.
20 Q. Put a number 4 there, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. Would you now indicate Hum hill.
23 A. This over here is Hum hill.
24 Q. Right. Put "Hum". And it spreads upwards?
25 A. Upwards and to the north.
1 Q. Right. Thank you. Would you put your initials there, please.
2 A. [Marks]
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] And may we have an IC
4 number, please.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please, Witness.
6 I understood it that your house was -- yes, it's number 4. Is that the
7 cemetery number 4 or is it your house?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My house. The cemetery is over
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where is the cemetery? Could
11 you put a number 5 where the cemetery is.
12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Would you draw a circle around the cemetery because Saric Harem,
15 the name of the cemetery, is a rather large cemetery, is it not?
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. While you are doing that, would you mark the South Camp.
18 A. South Camp is further down there.
19 Q. All right. May we have an IC number. Let's move on.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, please, Madam
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 300.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to stop there and
24 reconvene at 10.30.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.39 a.m.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Praljak, you have
3 the floor.
4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Good morning again, Witness. What you see before you on the ELMO
6 is a photograph --
7 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, excuse me for interrupting. I
8 apologise to Mr. Praljak. Before we leave it Your Honour, just so the
9 record is clear, we broke looking at IC 300, which was a map of -- and I
10 just want the record to be very clear, and I don't want to have to come
11 back to it later. Could we see IC 300 for a moment? Thank you. Thank
12 you, Usher. I apologise.
13 Mr. President, I just, in reviewing the transcript just now, I
14 just want it to be very clear that when the witness said that the South
15 Camp was there, the record just says there. That when we look at IC 300,
16 the witness was indicating that it was off the photograph, somewhere down
17 in the lower left on the lower left side. The South Camp is not shown in
18 this photograph at all. I just wanted the record to be clear. Thank you.
19 Sorry, Mr. Praljak.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. And after that
22 Mr. Praljak did not wish to inquire further into the location of the South
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I will not discuss this with
25 this witness, but we see the edge of the South Camp on this photograph.
1 We will have other maps later.
2 Q. Witness, we see a photograph of Hum overlooking Mostar, and the
3 line of separation between the HVO and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
4 is marked. Do you agree that this is a faithful depiction, that this
5 green area was under the control of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
6 and the other area, which is not coloured, is under the HVO?
7 A. I think it was -- it's correct.
8 Q. Will you mark with 1 the green area under the control of the BH
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And what is outside this red line mark with 2.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And this area to the north.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. Just place your initials there.
16 A. [Marks]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 301.
19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 Q. Next photograph, please. I would like the witness to look at the
21 map on his right-hand side, the large map, where red marks, what we have
22 seen before, separation lines between the HVO along Hasan Brkic bridge,
23 then it crosses over Donja Mahala to the foot of the Hum hill, and from
24 the Hasan Brkic bridge the separation line was to the right, the Neretva
25 river; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. We will put numbers later. Can you mark 1 for the top of Hum
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Will you also mark Stotina with number 2. From Hasan Brkic bridge
6 to the right. Put a 2 there.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Please, you say that you saw the bunkers made by the HVO, and can
9 you now show on the map what it is that you saw. Put a number 3, if you
10 remember where it was.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Did you write number 3? Behind the red line, could you write ABH
13 and write HVO where the HVO was.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And on that map, can you try to locate your house, put a number 4,
16 let's say.
17 A. I will try to mark it exactly.
18 Q. Number 4, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And your initials at the bottom.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And an IC number, please?
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 302.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I have only a couple more photographs that I would like placed on
2 the ELMO to clarify this completely. Is this Stotina? You see the road.
3 Is that the group of houses at Stotina?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you put a circle around them and number 1. Draw a circle
6 around all of the houses at Stotina. Number 1.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now, in this photograph, will you draw the -- mark the location of
9 the bunker.
10 A. I apologise. It was not a bunker; it was a fortification of
11 sandbags along this whole line. It's a steep slope, a cliff practically,
12 below, and they made fortifications to protect these houses. It was on
13 the edge.
14 Q. Very well. Put your initials there.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And an IC number, please?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 303.
19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.
20 Q. We see Stotina here and the house that we saw before. And the
21 place where you showed those sandbags were placed along the edge here of
22 the cliff. Can you mark that, please.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And put a number 1 there.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And those houses down below, were they already under the control
2 of the BH Army?
3 A. They were constantly under the control of the BH Army.
4 Q. At that time, to the best of your recollection, were there troops
5 and residents alike, or were the troops around the houses and residents
7 A. Well, don't ask me that. There were probably people from the BH
8 Army who lived there.
9 Q. Put your initials there, please.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. So number 2 is the BH Army. IC number?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 304.
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
14 Q. This is a photograph provided by the Prosecutor, and this red
15 stain marks certain houses at Stotina. Do you see this red stain?
16 A. Do you mean this?
17 Q. Right. That's Stotina, isn't it? Make a circle around it.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And put number 1.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And in the left corner you see part of the cemetery, Saric Harem.
22 Can you now mark on this picture where your house would be.
23 A. You can't see it. It would have been outside the picture to the
25 Q. All these other buildings were under the control of the BH Army,
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Draw a circle around them.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Including the bridge. And number 3, please.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And to the left, across the bridge is also an area under the
8 control of the BH Army. Put a number 3 there.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And your initials.
11 A. [Marks]
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 305.
15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Here we see a sketch of your house, the lower terrace and the
17 upper terrace, and the garden below. To the best of your knowledge, where
18 was your wife standing at the moment when she was killed?
19 A. I don't know exactly where she was standing at the moment she was
20 killed, but when I got out I found one slipper belonging to my wife on the
21 third step, and another on the first step.
22 Q. To the best of your knowledge, draw a line from where the bullet
23 was coming.
24 A. Well, approximately from here.
25 Q. Number 3, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And your initials.
3 A. [Marks]
4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Next photograph, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 306.
6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Based on the previous sketch, I tried to draw the upper terrace.
8 I obviously made a mistake in the height. So tell me, what is the
9 difference in height between the upper terrace and the lower terrace?
10 A. Less than a metre.
11 Q. Six steps? How many centimetres?
12 A. There are probably the standard 18 centimetres.
13 Q. So approximately 90 centimetres. I made a mistake in drawing this
14 sketch because I drew a fence, but on the photograph we saw those boxes
15 with flowers. Were they there at the time or did you put them up later?
16 A. Later.
17 Q. Can you just draw on this line -- on this picture where the bullet
18 came from?
19 A. If this is the house, and this is one terrace, I don't see where
20 you drew the steps. My wife was here. The bullet came from this side.
21 Q. Place a number 2 for the bullet. And number 2, the position of
22 your wife.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And your initials.
25 A. [Marks]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you hear this theory
2 that the bullet came from there, but if we imagine for a moment that
3 another theory is possible, based on the position of the slippers on steps
4 3 and 1, would it have been possible for her to be hit while she was
5 climbing the steps? Would it have changed the trajectory of the bullet?
6 Because the theory that we have to take into account was that she was
7 struck by a bullet at the moment when she was climbing down the stairs,
8 and that she was hit where she was hit in the head, and she lost her
9 slippers on the steps, and you found her at the bottom of the stairs.
10 Would that have changed the trajectory of the bullet, as you believe it to
12 A. Let me tell you, when my wife went outside, she stayed there one
13 or two minutes. We had a cat and she was talking to that cat. I heard
14 her. She stayed there for a while, so she could not have been hit while
15 she was moving. She was still, standing still.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are three possibilities.
17 She was hit at the moment when she was talking to the cat before the
18 steps. Second possibility, she was climbing down the steps when she was
19 hit. And three, she was hit by a bullet when she was at the bottom of the
21 What is your opinion, your estimate?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My opinion is that she was hit while
23 she was standing down there, talking to the cat, and I think she was hit
24 then. That's my opinion, based on where the wound was, and where I found
25 the slippers and which way the slippers were facing. That's my belief.
1 Of course, nobody knows what exactly happened. There is nobody who will
2 prove that.
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] IC number, please, for this.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 307.
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This is the last sketch. The stairs are obviously too big. I
7 didn't know how many there were. Can you draw on this sketch from which
8 direction the bullet came.
9 A. From this direction. My wife was lying here. Rather, on this --
10 on this terrace. I'm sorry.
11 Q. Cross out what you drew first, put a number 1.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And your initials.
14 A. [Marks]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, from this sketch, where is
16 the cat here?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see the cat. I suppose she
18 was down there. Because animals have instincts and maybe she had a
19 premonition. It was a very nice, gentle cat, and she lived in my house.
20 And for three days then, she had not come into the house, and I heard the
21 conversation between my wife and this cat and my wife was saying, "Cicko,
22 why aren't you coming into the house?" I have a little terrace down here,
23 two or three square metres. You saw it on the photograph. We used it for
24 storage, and I suppose it was underneath.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With the pen you have, by
1 placing the pen vertically, could you show us on this sketch the position
2 of your wife when she was hit by a bullet?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I got out I found two slippers.
4 Here. One here and one on the first step. I found her lying there. I
5 believe the cat was underneath the terrace from all I saw.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But if your wife was standing at
7 the place -- on the spot where you found her lying, how do you explain the
8 fact that her slippers were higher, were above her?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have seen a lot of traffic
10 accidents where the victims lost whatever they were wearing on their feet.
11 I found her slippers there and I believe that she lost them. She had a
12 bruise by her cheek bone and everything indicates that she was turned that
13 way judging by the place where her slippers were, the wound behind her
14 left ear. So that's my opinion and what I'm convinced of.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, I apologise once again for having to ask you these
18 questions, but the slippers that you marked there, can you put a number 2
19 by them. 2 for slippers.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And number 3 where you think the cat was.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And tell me, please, this is very important, if you can remember
24 at all. The position of the slippers, were you able to conclude that your
25 late wife was climbing up the stairs or coming down the stairs?
1 A. I said that most probably she was standing and talking to the cat,
2 and she was standing and hit standing and that her slippers fell off her
3 feet. That is my opinion, and I stand by that opinion.
4 Q. Witness, I am not trying in any way, and please understand this,
5 in any way to influence what you are saying. Please understand me when I
6 say that. But what I'm saying is regardless of whether she was standing
7 or coming down the steps, judging by the position of the slippers, was she
8 facing the stairs as if she were climbing up the -- going to climb up the
9 stairs or climbing up the stairs or away from the stairs climbing down?
10 A. I found her lying down. I was on the settee in the room. I was
11 inside, so I didn't see whether she was actually standing, standing still
12 or moving around. Only God can know things like that. So don't make me
13 say things that I don't know. I can't actually know what happened. But
14 it is my opinion that she was standing still at the time.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, without trying to be
16 Sherlock Holmes, there is a point on which there can be no discussion, and
17 that is you said that the bullet hit her under her left ear. Now, this
18 fact excludes her having been hit when she was going up the stairs because
19 if she was going up the stairs and hit then, then the bullet would have
20 entered through her right ear, not her left ear. So she cannot have been
21 going up the stairs. What do you have to say to that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think the same as you have
23 just said. I think she was standing. That's why I say she was standing,
24 because she was facing Stotina with her left side. So if she was hit
25 behind her left ear, then it was that side of her face or head that was
1 facing Stotina.
2 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm very sorry to interrupt and I only
3 do so in the interests of ensuring that nothing is missed here. I should
4 point out to the Trial Chamber and to everyone in court that on
5 Prosecution Exhibit 02655, which is the -- a medical report dealing with
6 the death of the witness's wife, there is a reference in Latin which
7 appears to be the abbreviation DEX, which is presumably an abbreviation
8 for Dexter, meaning right, and the reference is to the skull. There was
9 some confusion that Mr. Scott tried to clear up when the witness, on the
10 video, was indicating with his right hand on the right part of his skull
11 when asked to demonstrate the point of entry. And he later clarified that
12 by saying that he was right handed, but it might be a matter which the
13 Trial Chamber thinks could be inquired into further.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, the certificate
15 describing the circumstances of the death of your wife, in the B/C/S
16 document that you have in front of you, there are some Latin words, and
17 the last word there is osccp. Dx. The osccp might be occiput. I don't
18 know about the X, but the Defence is saying right, which seems to indicate
19 that the wound was on the right and not on the left. Are you sure that
20 the bullet hit your wife above the left ear, behind the left ear?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you 100 per cent certain?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because the wound, the shock
25 that you had -- well, did you look at the wound up close? Did you have a
1 close look at wound?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and my daughter was with me,
3 she was 15 years old at the time. I don't wish to -- I don't want to
4 recall any other sights. My daughter suffered worse than I did. I saw
5 the wound when we brought my wife into the house, and I saw that around
6 the wound there was brain matter splattered, white pieces of brain matter
7 splattered and very little blood. And as time passed, my wife was in the
8 house for 15 minutes or half an hour before she was taken to the mortuary
9 was very hot, warm. I held my wife. I took her into the house. I saw
10 her. So can you please spare me any further details. We've been
11 discussing this for three days now. I think I've had enough. I can't
12 take anymore.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we volunteer this? Mr. Murphy
14 very helpfully offered some learning. It is very difficult to decide for
15 everything, but a couple of the words are very clear. Second line in the
16 Bosnian, the B/C/S version of the death certificate is capitis, which is
17 of the head. And the last two words seem to be protrusio or protrusio and
18 then cerebra, that clearly is a reference to brain. So it looks as if the
19 last line there is referring to the effects on the brain. Your Honour,
20 the suggestion is that because the English translation is plainly not
21 complete and there has been a difficulty with legibility, that this
22 particular item should be sent for translation.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we shall request a
24 translation of that from the CLSS.
25 Yes, Mr. Scott.
1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Stewart makes the point that I was about to rise
2 and make. And with all respect to those who know more about Latin in the
3 courtroom than I do, I really don't think we should be speculating too
4 much about it. Mr. Murphy may indeed be 100 per cent right, but the
5 obvious solution is to ask that the language be fully translated. Having
6 said that, Your Honour, the witness has made it quite clear and was quite
7 adamant that the wound was on the left side.
8 While I'm on my feet, Your Honour, I think, I must make the record
9 on these various sketches that Mr. Praljak has prepared, apparently in his
10 own hand. They are not to scale. I appreciate that he has made some
11 effort, but there is no indication that they are accurate or to scale. He
12 has shown a number of these drawings to the witness very quickly. The
13 witness has not really had a chance to see these before coming in the
14 courtroom or give them much thought. Some of these markings are being
15 made very quickly on drawings that are not to scale and not necessarily
16 properly oriented. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Mr. Praljak, I personally consider that the sketches allow the
19 witness to show us what happened, so although they are maybe not to scale,
20 they are there so we have them and we will take note of that. We still
21 have three witnesses to get through, so do you have any more questions?
22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I have almost finished, and
23 I apologise to the witness, I won't go back to this area. I said that
24 these sketches were not to scale and asked the witness about the various
25 levels and heights.
1 Q. Anyway, Witness, I'm not going to go on about that. Just two more
3 You said that you saw a bunker at Hum being blown up. Obviously
4 someone from the BH Army side had hit it and it was blown up. On that big
5 map to your right, where were the BH Army artillery positions? Because
6 you can't raze a bunker to the ground or up in the air with an ordinary
7 bullet, you have to use artillery weapons.
8 A. I saw a ZIS canon being brought and I know that the first shell or
9 bullet hit half a metre below the window and the other one hit the bunker
10 and the shooting went on for three hours. This was something that was
11 talked about in Mostar. It was an event that people talked about and
12 people were very pleased that the shot was successful.
13 Q. What about the ZIS position?
14 A. Bukvic house on -- and my house, it was in between. It was
15 halfway between my house and the Bukvic house. So everything we saw was
16 from the west side. My house is on the east side on the street.
17 Q. And the Zeiss was behind your house, was it?
18 A. No, there was my house, then another house that we saw there, and
19 then the wall of the third house, so it was behind that wall. I will try
20 and show you. If this is Marsal Tito Street, I can tell you exactly.
21 Q. Look at it on the large map.
22 A. Well, I can't see anything on that big map. We said that this was
23 the bridge. So if this is the Neretva and I said that my house was here,
24 then Marsal Tito Street is here, which curves down by the cafe, everybody
25 knows the cafe there, and then you go to Mejdan. Behind Bukvic's house,
1 which is the third house after my house, that's where the ZIS resist
2 cannon was shooting.
3 Q. Would you place the ZIS above that position.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you.
6 A. You're welcome.
7 Q. My last question: In June when this happened, when this killing
8 or when your wife was hit, in Mostar on the left bank, were the civilian
9 authorities functioning, the civilian police for instance or some other
10 civilian services, the courts, were they working? Were the civilian
11 authorities functioning?
12 A. Well, I really don't remember. I know that something was
13 organised in the local community, some sort of civil government, civilian
14 government. There were soldiers as well. Everything went on at the same
15 time just as it did on the opposite side.
16 Q. Now, my very last question. When you reported the death of your
17 wife, did anybody make what we call an on-site investigation? Did they
18 call for an investigation, either then or after the war or during the war?
19 Was there an on-site investigation on the scene of the crime into your
20 wife's killing?
21 A. Absolutely no.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness, and I apologise for having to ask you those
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We don't seem to have given an
1 IC number for the last sketch, the one we still have up on our screens.
2 Madam Registrar, an IC number, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 308.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that
5 Mr. Praljak has asked all the questions.
6 Mr. Kovacic, do you have any additional ones then?
7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just two very short
8 questions to round off this topic.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, the bunker that you were asked about
11 that exploded when it was hit by a Zeiss at Stotina, can you tell us what
12 time of day that was?
13 A. It was at Hum.
14 Q. Yes, Hum.
15 A. In the afternoon. I can't give you an exact time, but sometime in
16 the afternoon around 5.00 or 6.00 roughly.
17 Q. And the date?
18 A. Well, I don't know the date, but --
19 Q. Could you say if it was spring, autumn?
20 A. I can't say.
21 Q. And a moment ago, and there's something about that in your
22 statement, you say that on the same day when your wife was killed there
23 were two other female victims. Do you know where they fell victim,
25 A. I heard about that when I went to Mostar and they said that two
1 other women fell casualty at Donja Mahala, that one was killed and the
2 other was wounded. Now, whether that was that day or the following day,
3 well, I went the following day. So that's when I heard about it. So it
4 might have been that day or --
5 Q. Did you happen to hear their names that day or later on?
6 A. No, I didn't. I really didn't because there were a lot of people
7 that were killed in Mostar.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, any relevant and
11 useful questions from you?
12 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, we have no questions. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Re-examination. Useful and
15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, if I could.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. SCOTT: If I could have the usher's assistance to put before
18 the witness IC 303, 304, and 305. And if you want to have IC 297 at hand
19 as well, that would be helpful. If I can, first, ask the witness to be
20 shown on the ELMO, 303, IC 303.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Scott:
22 Q. Sir, at the very -- to the left -- excuse me. On the photograph
23 to the right of the number 1 and just on the top edge of the circle you
24 drew, do you see a house there on the top of the hill? Or a structure?
25 A. Well, I can see this building here.
1 Q. I can't see what you're pointing at. Can you do it on the ELMO,
3 A. This one over here.
4 Q. Could I ask you to put -- mark that with a number 2, the building
5 at the top of the hill. Excuse me, there is a number 2 already. 3.
6 Please mark it -- change it to a 3. I'm sorry.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. I can't see the number 2. With that in mind, sir, can you then
9 please go to IC 304. And can you tell the Judges whether you can see
10 what -- the same structure you just marked on the top of Stotina, appears
11 to you? If you can see it.
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 Q. Yes. I don't know what number we are up to on that. Looks like
14 we have a number 4 already. Could I ask you to -- number 5, please.
15 A. [No interpretation]
16 Q. Number 5 on the house, please. Thank you, counsel.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And if I could ask you, please, to look at IC 305. I'm sorry, 305
19 I think is another photo if I'm not mistaken. I believe it's IC 305.
20 Can we just confirm for the record that that's -- that we're now
21 looking at IC 305? Is that right? 302? All right. I'm informed we are
22 now looking at IC 302.
23 Sir, can you look again at that photo and can you see the same
24 house or structure that we've been looking at in the last two photos and
25 if you see that one, let me ask you to mark it number 5.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Sir, can I ask that -- can I ask
3 the usher to assist you in looking at IC 297. Sir, is that a
4 photograph -- we marked that before, but what we're looking at in terms of
5 Mr. Praljak's sketches, is that an angle looking from the steps going down
6 from the upper terrace to the lower terrace and then looking back roughly
7 to the southwest. First of all, is that the terrace showing the upper
8 terrace and then the step the -- a handrail, a rail we can see in the
9 foreground of the picture going down to the -- or being on the second or
10 lower terrace?
11 A. This is the upper terrace. These are the steps leading down to
12 the entrance gate of the yard. This is the lower terrace, and these are
13 the steps. You can't see them here, but they go down to this railing and
14 the entrance into the yard. And the other steps were over here.
15 Q. All right. We have to be very clear for the record, sir, because
16 you've made -- jumped around the photo and made a number of markings.
17 When you point to the lower left corner of the photograph, going where the
18 stairs are leaning downward, going off the photograph, does that go down
19 to the entrance to your apartment?
20 A. The entrance to my yard is down here. And the entrance to my
21 flat, to my house is up here, over here. So the first level terrace and
22 the second level terrace.
23 Q. Let me correct myself. When I say the entry to your apartment,
24 coming into your property from the outside is at an access point at the
25 bottom of the stairs leading off the picture to the right; is that
2 A. Yes, that's right. This is the entrance to my yard, to my
4 Q. Is it correct to say, sir, that the photo we're looking at now, if
5 one were to be standing looking -- standing at the very bottom of this
6 photograph and looking toward what you've marked as number 1, would one be
7 standing on what you've called the lower terrace?
8 A. I don't understand. Where am I standing?
9 Q. If you're standing in the very beginning of the -- exactly from
10 where the perspective from where this photograph is taken, you see that
11 you -- you see the rail there in front of you?
12 A. Yes, the photograph was taken from the first terrace, the smaller
14 Q. The lower terrace, can we also use the term lower terrace in
15 reference to the upper terrace?
16 A. Yes, you can say that. This picture was taken from the lower
17 terrace, the smaller, lower terrace.
18 Q. Can I --
19 A. And there are six steps leading down to that lower, smaller
20 terrace, or to the entrance, six steps to the entrance.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... usher's assistance and if I
22 could have a number for the next IC number please, the next -- the new IC
23 number. A brand new IC number, whatever the next is.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For which photograph?
25 MR. SCOTT: A new photograph, Your Honour. It's a still from the
1 video. I just need a number for reference purposes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but I would like to see it
3 on the screen to see which one it is.
4 So you want a number for that one there?
5 MR. SCOTT: Yes, please.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have an IC
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 309.
9 MR. SCOTT:
10 Q. Just for the record, sir, can you just -- can you just confirm
11 that those are the steps leading down, rather than having Mr. Praljak's
12 sketches which are not to scale, can you agree that those are the steps
13 leading down from the upper terrace to the lower terrace.
14 A. Yes. That's the upper terrace. These are the steps leading down
15 to the smaller terrace, and then from that lower terrace the steps go
16 further down westward to the entrance into the yard.
17 Q. Sir, can I ask you to mark once again please on this photograph
18 the steps where, as best you can recall, your wife's slippers were found.
19 A. That would make it here. And the lower one. Is this the first
20 one? If that's the first one, then that would be the third. Or if there
21 is one other step below this photograph, then -- I think the first and the
22 third anyway. I can't see whether there's -- I'll cross that middle one
23 out then.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have another question
25 which isn't directly related to the slippers. On the white wall that we
1 can see there I see some spots. Now, I asked myself two questions, having
2 seen them: Are they damp marks or were they holes caused by shells or
3 bullets which were later on filled in with plaster or cement or whatever?
4 And which appear that way. The spots, is that from the damp or is there
5 another reason?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those smudges or spots are the
7 remainders of the projectiles of snipers. I filled in those holes,
8 losing -- using a little gypsum, white wash and so on. I was going to
9 paint over the facade, but it's still like that.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ah, there we have it then. So
11 what you are telling us is that on the wall that we can see there in the
12 photograph, your wall bears the traces of shell impacts, bullet impacts
13 shot by the sniper.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there are sniper shots and also
15 projectiles --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At what time? Before June,
17 after June?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until my wife's death, there was
19 not much shooting, so these are probably the remains of what happened
20 afterwards. Because afterwards we were on the right bank. When I
21 returned to my house, because I was expelled from my house, I found these
22 marks on the wall.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm going to count with
24 you. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12,
25 13, 14 smudges or spots which can correspond to 14 impact points. Now,
1 each of these smudges, was there a hit from a projectile and that
2 afterwards you plastered over the holes, filled them in?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two projectiles were fired at my
4 house; my roof was damaged. And the front, north side of my house, the
5 north wall, there is a half metre hole where what I believe was a small
6 shell impacted on the attic. And on that side, from that side here, the
7 south side, this other house had not been built yet, another shell fell.
8 And around the house, I cannot count how many shells had fallen.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the floor that we are
10 looking at now, these stains, do they have anything to do with
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you mark the spots that you
14 filled in, that you plastered over, from what you recollect?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these spots that you can see,
16 all of those are repairs and there were bigger holes.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Show us with the pen.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of these spots. I repaired
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So all these filled in holes,
21 from which area did the bullets come? What was their trajectory?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Either from Hum or from Stotina, all
23 of them.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And these shots happened after
25 June, after the death of your wife?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.
3 MR. SCOTT: If I could ask the witness to be shown, I think, what
4 was IC 308. And could the witness still leave, please, Exhibit -- still
5 leave IC 297 there.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will give a
7 number to this photograph where the witness has shown us various
8 projectiles. Can we have a number for the previous one, for the previous
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 MR. SCOTT: I think that was 309, Your Honour, if I'm not
12 mistaken. They're not marked.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It was 309, I'm told. For the
14 record, let me note that the witness has shown by marking little dots on
15 the hard copy, those spots on the wall that he had to fill in after the
16 month of June, 1993, after the death of his wife.
17 MR. SCOTT: Could I have the usher's assistance, please. I may
18 need another bundle of these documents, the photo bundle which is P 09220,
19 and I can -- I can assist you. For counsel, for the courtroom, I'm
20 looking at Exhibit P 09220, and in particular -- excuse me. Photograph
21 number 05016228. If you could put that on the ELMO, please, so everyone
22 can see.
23 Q. Sir, again, just have another vantage point. The arrow that's on
24 that photograph, is that pointing to the back of your house?
25 A. Yes, it does show it. It's the west side of my house.
1 Q. Now, the structure with the -- to the immediate right of that
2 large wall with -- there was a structure there with a peaked roof
3 immediately to the right and above the arbour. Is it correct, sir, that
4 in your testimony earlier today that's one of the buildings that you said
5 was not at that location in June 1993?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, if the usher still has there, please, Exhibit 308, IC 308, if
8 we can look at that for a moment. I don't believe that's 308. 308 is a
9 sketch, I believe. Sorry, Your Honour, it's a problem we don't have
10 markings on the documents themselves; it becomes quite confusing for
12 Sir, I'd like you to look at that document for a moment. I would
13 also like you to have IC 297 next to it. If we could have -- if we could
14 have, I'm sorry, for accuracy's sake, could I have the 297 that the
15 registry has? IC 297, please. Thank you very much. On the ELMO as well.
16 If I could have the other one, similar drawing back, just before it gets
17 completely lost. Thank you very much.
18 Now, sir, Mr. Praljak showed you a number of sketches and things
19 quite quickly and had you make a number of markings on this drawing. You
20 were showing at one point where your wife was standing and you made a
21 number of arrows and markings to show where you believe, in response to
22 various questions, your wife was standing or located at the time that she
23 was shot. I don't know which of the lines or markings you thought you
24 were making at the time, but the line that is -- looking at the line which
25 is above the number 1 on the sketch that is there, the sketch which is IC
1 308, did you mean when you drew that line in looking also at the drawing
2 that you marked -- the marking you made on 297, when you made the line
3 above the number 1, did you mean to indicate the direction from which the
4 shot came? Or what did you mean to indicate when you drew that?
5 A. I don't know what Mr. Praljak asked me, whether it's the -- where
6 the bullet came from, but I see now it's not where the bullet came from.
7 The bullet must have come from that side. That side was held by the HVO
8 side. I don't know what I was showing; I was showing Hum or something.
9 But the bullet must have come from this direction.
10 Q. Can you make another marking on 308 where you believe the shot --
11 the direction the shot came from.
12 A. It should be like this. From this direction.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 3, at the top of the line
14 where you just --
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. That's fine, number 3. Thank you very much, Witness.
17 No further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Praljak.
19 Further cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Just one question, please.
21 Q. You showed that house at Stotina, you circled it a couple of
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was one more floor added to it
25 after the war?
1 A. I'm not sure. Maybe, yes. Let me just tell you, I don't see
2 Stotina anymore. Before the war I had visibility. I could see Stotina.
3 I can't see it anymore because two more houses were added in front of me.
4 Maybe another floor was added, maybe not. I'm not sure.
5 Q. You allow for the possibility that one more floor was added during
6 the war? That's the information at least that I have. I'm just asking if
7 you know something about it?
8 A. If that's what you claim, I take your word for it.
9 Q. We can see it on pictures. We can deal with it later.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] If you allow me, just one question
11 for this witness arising from redirect.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are no questions after
13 redirect unless you have a crucial, vital question. If it is not the
14 case, you should not be asking the question, otherwise, I give you the
16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Just if we can clarify one matter,
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:
19 Q. [Interpretation] It seems to me that you said, regarding those
20 traces of bullets or shell, it seems to me you said that you had left your
21 house before that, and that you don't know how they came about. Is that
22 what you said?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That's all I wanted.
25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, I thank you
2 very much for coming to The Hague to testify, especially since the events
3 concerned are extremely painful to you and your whole family. On behalf
4 of all the Judges, I wish to express our gratitude and wish you a safe
5 trip back home. Rest assured that we have every sympathy for your
6 feelings. I will now ask the usher to escort you out.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Back to the Prosecution now.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have around two hours left
11 until the end of the day. We need to fit in a 20-minute break and we have
12 three more witnesses. How did you plan to proceed? There are two
13 possibilities. Either we speed up and we ask only questions about the
14 point of origin of bullets, and that's what we want to know on the Bench.
15 Everything else is secondary. If we just ask questions about where
16 bullets came from, we can go very quickly. Mr. Scott.
17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. Based on the experience
18 yesterday and today, I don't think there is any way that we can possibly
19 finish three witnesses yet today in the remaining time. We have less than
20 two hours. I understand what the Court is indicating about the point of
21 impact, but you can see we have just spent the last 45 minutes talking
22 about where the shot came from and where -- what happened. So I see no --
23 I see no realistic possibility of finishing all witnesses and
24 unfortunately with my apologies to the witnesses in advance.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All the time that we are using
1 is useful. If the investigation was carried out professionally, all these
2 questions have been resolved and evidence exists. However, we see that
3 there are certain lacunae that the Trial Chamber has to fill in order to
4 establish the truth. So it is not the fault of the Trial Chamber. You
5 also have done what you could, but certain elements are missing.
6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I apologise. I didn't mean to suggest
7 that the -- the burden fell entirely on the Trial Chamber for the time
8 used. Everyone has used a great deal of time. Mr. Praljak has used a
9 great deal of time. I had to come back on redirect and use more time than
10 usual. That's just the way it has worked out. I wasn't casting any
11 stones in any direction at all. It's just simply, I don't think we can
12 realistically conclude three remaining witnesses today, unfortunately.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So which witness do you want
14 brought in right now?
15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, Mr. Bos will be taking the next witness,
16 and I'm not sure if he is a protected witness or not, to be perfectly
17 honest. You will have to check.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] From all I know, there are no
20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Heljic, Your Honour, will be the next witness.
21 Mr. Bos will be taking the witness.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to
23 bring in Mr. Heljic.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: While that is happening, Your Honour, if I may just
25 briefly make an observation for the record, which I'm sure has not gone
1 unnoticed on the Trial Chamber. All of these photographs that we seem to
2 be showing to the witnesses are not a fair and accurate representation of
3 the scene at the time that the incident occurred. We don't know exactly
4 what the scene looked like at the time. That puts us at a great
5 disadvantage to simply say that a building went up, I had -- I had this
6 particular view, is insufficient for any -- anybody, including this expert
7 who is going to come in and say to any degree of scientific certainty that
8 a shot came from a particular place at a particular time from a particular
9 weapon. I raise this because I think perhaps we may be able to shorten
10 the proceedings by recognising that one, what is being shown to the
11 witnesses are photographs that are not fair and accurate representations
12 and, therefore, the best that we could do is guess.
13 That being said, it would appear that if we applied the standard
14 of proof, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, then I think in all instances,
15 the Trial Chamber must find that the Prosecution is unable to prove beyond
16 a reasonable doubt as to where the shot came from and accordingly who was
17 the shooter and under whom that shooter was under control. Therefore, we
18 might be able to just dispense with this entire line of testimony and save
19 some time.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.
21 MR. SCOTT: [Previous translation continues] ... it's clear, and
22 it's very clear --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I thought that
24 the usher had gone out to bring in the witness. Please go and bring the
1 Continue, Mr. Scott.
2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I think it's very clear, and
3 it's -- there's been no effort, of course and I don't -- I hope
4 Mr. Karnavas is not suggesting this, there has been no effort to deceive
5 or misguide the Court in this way. It's been very clear from the
6 beginning, from the witnesses who have said when these photographs were
7 made, when this 360 was done, the buildings that were there are not there.
8 Unfortunately there is only so much the Prosecution can do under the
9 circumstances. We cannot go back to 1993 and create photos that didn't
10 exist at the time. All we can do is explain that to the Chamber.
11 I have to say that I don't want to be rushed because I do want to
12 respond to counsel's comments for the record and make sure it's clear. I
13 think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that that characterises the
14 entirety of the Prosecution evidence. Some of the photographs do, we
15 think, look virtually the same as they did in 1993, and some of the sites.
16 Some of them don't. But we have pointed that out to the Chamber and tried
17 to provide the Chamber as much information as possible. Of course at the
18 end of the day, the Chamber will have to decide based on the totality of
19 the evidence before it. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All the parties can rest assured
21 that the Chamber reviews every case very scrupulously. You have to bear
22 that in mind, and you can rest assured that the conclusion on every
23 incident in our judgement will be explained in detail. We are trying to
24 work, however, with indisputable and certain elements and rely on them in
25 the first place.
1 Witness, can you hear me in the language you understand?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stand up now, please. I have to
4 ask you to give me your full name and date of birth.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anel Heljic, 16 December 1983.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation,
7 if any?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not employed.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you testified before a
10 court of law earlier on the events that happened in your country, or is
11 this the first time?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, please read the solemn
14 declaration that is being given to you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: ANEL HELJIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Just a few brief
20 words of explanation before I give the floor to the Prosecution. You can
21 sit. You will now be questioned by the Prosecution and you have met
22 representatives of the Prosecution before. They will be showing you
23 documents, maps, maybe videos, and after that time, which should be no
24 more than 30 minutes, it will be the turn of the Defence who will have one
25 hour in total to ask you relevant questions. And the Judges also of
1 course will be able to ask you questions.
2 Mr. Bos, proceed, and we are bearing in mind the contents of his
3 written statement.
4 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone. Good
5 morning, Witness.
6 I will first read out the Rule 65 ter summary of this witness.
7 The witness, a nine-year-old boy, lived in Donja Mahala, Mostar. Sometime
8 in the first half of June 1993, the witness was playing on the street with
9 his two friends. On that day between 4.00 and 5.00, Mustafa Buric, a
10 truck driver, took the witness and his two friends on his water tanker to
11 the apartment building situated at Gojka Vukovica 118, where he parked his
12 truck behind a Volkswagen Golf.
13 Mustafa Buric left the truck while the witness and his friends
14 remained in the front seat of the truck. A minute after Mustafa Buric had
15 left the truck, the witness heard the sound of flying bullets impacting on
16 the surface of the streets, approximately a metre and a half in front of
17 the Volkswagen Golf.
18 A couple of seconds later, he heard the sound of a second bullet,
19 which impacted in either the motor hood or the front windshield of the
20 Volkswagen Golf. Five or six seconds later, a second shot had been
21 fired -- the second shot had been fired. The witness heard something fly
22 through the front windshield of the truck and smelled gunpowder. This
23 third shot had hit and wounded him in the right upper arm. After the
24 third shot had hit the truck, all three of them tried to get out at the
25 same time. The witness managed to get into the apartment building, his
1 friend Nihad Buric was slightly wounded on the left side of his chest.
2 According to what the witness heard later, he must have been hit by a
3 fragmentation bullet because he had one entry wound and two exit wounds.
4 The witness had to undergo surgery in the war hospital and had to
5 stay there for about three months. In total, it took about a year to
6 recover. According to the witness, the shots must have been fired from
7 the direction of the HVO positions at Stotina, which was about 600 metres
8 away and on a higher elevation from where the truck was parked.
9 Examination by Mr. Bos:
10 Q. Witness, I just summarised your statement and I am going to ask
11 you a few questions about your written statement. Did you provide a
12 written statement to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on
13 the 29th of August, 2001?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at the time you provided this written statement, did you
16 answer the questions of the investigator truthfully?
17 A. Truthfully and correctly.
18 Q. And did you answer the questions freely, that is without any
20 A. Yes, freely.
21 Q. And at the conclusion of that interview, sir, was your statement
22 read back to you in the Bosnian language?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you then sign the statement in the English language?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. I'm now going to provide you with your statements with the
2 assistance of the usher. Could you take a look at the first document in
3 this bundle and see whether you recognise your signature on the -- on the
4 English statement in this bundle. This is Exhibit 9860. You will see a
5 little -- in the bundle there is a -- a number there, 9860. Would you
6 look into this and see.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that -- do you now have the English statement in front of you?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Is that your signature which is on the statement, Witness?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Witness, do you recall that you met with an investigator and
13 myself yesterday afternoon?
14 A. Yes, I recall that.
15 Q. And at that meeting do you remember that I asked you whether you
16 wanted to make any corrections to your statement?
17 A. I remember being asked that.
18 Q. And is it true that you indicated one specific correction relating
19 to the bright-coloured clothing of yourself and your friends, which is on
20 the fourth paragraph of page 2 of your statement? If you want to look at
21 the B/C/S version, if you continue, you will find your statement into --
22 in the B/C/S language.
23 Let me just ask you this: Do you remember that -- that you wanted
24 to make a correction in relation to the clothing of you and your friends.
25 What was the correction you wanted to make?
1 A. Yes, I remember that. The correction had to do with our T-shirts.
2 In fact, the T-shirts of my friends.
3 Q. And what was the correction that you wanted to make?
4 A. What was written was that my friends were wearing multi-coloured
6 Q. If you want to find the passage, it's on the second page of --
7 A. Yes, yes, I found it. It says all the three of us were in
8 children's clothing of bright colours.
9 Q. Let me just ask, what was the clothing that you were wearing that
11 A. I remember about myself, I was wearing a light green shirt with
12 long sleeves and it had a Mickey Mouse on it.
13 Q. And do you remember what your two friends were wearing that day?
14 A. I really can't remember now. I was a child.
15 Q. And is that the correction that you wanted to make to the
16 statement? Because here you said that they were also wearing bright
17 coloured clothing.
18 A. Only that, yes.
19 Q. Witness, one other thing. In your statement you say that you
20 can't remember the exact date that the incident occurred, and you talk
21 about the half -- around half June 1993. Now, is it correct that
22 yesterday you said that you remembered the exact date?
23 A. Yes, I remember that, because I got a paper from the hospital
24 where it is written that I was hit on the 13th.
25 Q. And did I ask you whether you had that document with you yesterday
1 in proofing?
2 A. Yes, I said I had it at home.
3 Q. You had it at home. So is it correct that last night you tried to
4 contact your parents and find out whether they still had the document
5 which says that -- which confirmed that it would have been on the 13th of
7 A. Yes, they said that was the date, but that paper had been
8 submitted as part of the documentation required for an application for
9 some sort of civilian pension.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have lost a lot of
11 time on Mickey Mouse T-shirts and the clothing of your friends. Just one
12 question that I wanted to ask to save time. Mustafa, the driver of this
13 water cistern, how was he dressed, if you can recollect?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.
16 MR. BOS: Your Honours, could I just ask when we would have the
17 break because I know we have been going on for one and a half hours now.
18 Would this be a good time or would you like me to continue?
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I see the clock, and
20 we are going to take the break now. It's noon now, and we resume in 20
22 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed, Mr. Bos.
25 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Witness, do you remember in 2004 that you met with an investigator
2 and a photographer at the ICTY in Mostar, in the summer of 2004?
3 A. Yes, I do remember.
4 Q. And at that time were you asked a series of questions relating to
5 the sniping incident discussed in your statement?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And were these questions and answers videotaped?
8 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
9 Q. When you were asked these questions and you were giving answers,
10 was this videotaped? Do you recall that?
11 A. Yes, it was taped.
12 Q. Witness, we are now going to play a videotape, and, in fact, we're
13 going to play two videotapes Your Honours. And first we will show the two
14 videoclips and then afterwards I will ask you a few questions, Witness.
15 [Videotape played]
16 "Investigator: Mr. Buric, to the best of your recollection, is
17 this the proximity to the one in which your son, Nihad Buric and his
18 friend Anel Heljic were shot at around the 6th or 7th of June 1993?
19 "Witness: Yes.
20 "Investigator: Mr. Buric, to the best of your recollection, could
21 you indicate where a bullet had gone through the windscreen of the truck
22 at that time.
23 "Witness: Yes, I can.
24 "Investigator: Please indicate.
25 "Witness: [Witness indicates]
1 "Investigator: I will now measure the height from the ground to
2 where the bullet impacted the windscreen. For the recording purposes, the
3 height was two metres and 20 centimetres."
4 MR. BOS: We can play the next clip as well.
5 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, just before we do that, could just for
6 the record, can it be established whether the truck we saw in the video
7 was the same one or the same model truck as was involved in the actual
8 incident, please.
9 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I was going to ask questions about that
10 after playing this video. If you wish, I can ask the questions now, but I
11 prefer to show this video first and then ask the questions, if that's
13 [Videotape played]
14 "Investigator: Mr. Heljic, to the best of your recollection,
15 could you please point out the position where the water truck in which you
16 were shot at was parked?
17 "Witness: [Indicates]
18 "Investigator: To the best of your recollection, could you please
19 point out at the spot where you saw the first bullet impact on the surface
20 of the street.
21 "Witness: [Indicates]
22 "Investigator: To the best of your recollection, could you please
23 point at the spot where you saw the second bullet impact the yellow
24 Volkswagen Golf?
25 "Witness: [Indicates]
1 "Investigator: To the best of your recollection, could you please
2 show where the third bullet hit you.
3 "Witness: [Indicates]
4 "Investigator: To the best of your recollection, was that house
5 that we see over there, was that house already built at the time when you
6 were shot at?
7 "Witness: No.
8 "Investigator: I will now mark a yellow X in the position where
9 the witness indicated that the water truck was parked."
10 MR. BOS:
11 Q. Witness, let me just a few questions first on the last clip that
12 you saw. Did you recognise yourself on this -- on this videoclip?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And did you understand the questions that were put to you by the
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 Q. And did you answer them truthfully to the best of your knowledge?
18 A. Only the truth.
19 Q. Now, a couple of questions about the first videoclip, and maybe we
20 can just show the image as a stand still on the screen of the first clip.
21 Yeah, we can stop it here.
22 Witness, do you recognise the man who is answering the questions
23 to the investigator on this clip?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Who is he?
1 A. Mustafa Buric.
2 Q. And was Mustafa Buric the man who actually parked the water truck
3 at the spot that you had indicated on the video that was played after
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. Witness, we see a blue truck behind there. Was this the actual
7 blue truck that you -- that were you in when you were shot at? Is this
8 the same truck?
9 A. No. The colour and the truck are the same, or type of truck, but
10 it's not that same truck.
11 Q. Very well.
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I apologise. But
13 to go back to the truck.
14 Witness, the truck with what it has there on the top is blue. At
15 the time, was this type of truck used by the police and army, given what
16 the truck has at the top there, that round ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. This is a water
18 truck. This is a water truck used for water.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. BOS:
21 Q. And in 1993, Witness, was this truck also used for water?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Buric is indicating a spot where the bullet entered
24 the -- the -- the -- the front of the truck. And maybe we can play it
25 again. And I would like to ask you, would you agree with what he points
1 at as the -- location where the bullet impacted? Maybe we can play the
2 videotape again.
3 [Videotape played]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree.
5 MR. BOS:
6 Q. Let's play the tape and maybe we can stop at the point where he is
7 indicating the impact.
8 [Videotape played]
9 "Investigator: Mr. Buric, to the best of your recollection, could
10 you indicate where the bullet had gone through the windscreen of the truck
11 at that time?
12 "Witness: Yes, I can.
13 "Investigator: Please indicate that.
14 "Witness: [Indicates]"
15 MR. BOS: You can stop there, please.
16 Q. So would you agree with him that that would be the approximate
17 location, spot?
18 A. Yes, I agree.
19 Q. And maybe just while we have the image here, could you tell us
20 where you were actually seated in the truck at this time? Were you seated
21 on the left, in the middle or on the right?
22 A. Right next to the driver.
23 Q. Maybe -- I don't know if you can indicate it. So on the
24 right-hand side or on the left?
25 A. Looking at it this way, then it's on the right.
1 Q. So would it be on the far end right of -- of the seats?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now perhaps the witness could
5 show us with a pencil on the photographer where he was.
6 MR. BOS: Your Honours, we have a photograph. I don't have it
7 right here at hand, but I will see to it that we get the photograph and
8 then he can mark the spot later on. It will take five minutes to get the
9 photograph because I don't have it here. I'll come back to that.
10 Q. Witness, we'll come back to -- to this photograph and then you can
11 mark the exact spot, but let me ask you first, is it correct that
12 yesterday when we met that you were shown a 360-degree photograph?
13 A. Yes, I was shown one.
14 Q. And is it correct that when we were showing you this photograph
15 that I asked you to indicate the exact spot where you think that the shots
16 on that day came from? On this 360 photograph?
17 A. Yes, I showed you the direction they came from.
18 Q. Now, Witness, we're going to again show this 360-degree photograph
19 in court now, and we'll make a full turn. And what I would like you to do
20 is to say "stop" when you actually have the direction from which you think
21 the shots came from in sight. Would you be able to do that? So we'll
22 start and we'll make a right-hand turn and make a full turn and then
23 please say "stop" when you actually see the site. So let's first make a
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.
2 MR. BOS:
3 Q. You want it to stop here? Or you want it to move a bit left or
4 right or is this okay?
5 A. A little more to the right. Stop.
6 Q. Witness, we made a video still. Yesterday you indicated the same
7 spot, and we made a video still of this, which we will now put on the --
8 on the ELMO. Now, could I ask you to -- with a marker, could I ask you to
9 mark the spot where you -- the spot where you think that the shots came
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Could you put a 1 over there as well, a number 1.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Now, you've marked the spot right on top of a tree. Was this tree
15 there in 1993?
16 A. Yes, it was, but it was narrower and you could see more.
17 Q. And what was it you could actually see behind that tree?
18 A. You could see two houses at Stotina.
19 Q. And is it your testimony that you think that these shots came from
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 Q. Witness, while you and your friends were in the truck, were you
23 able to hear where these shots came from? Because you heard, in fact,
24 there were three shots?
25 A. You could hear it but it wasn't that loud.
1 Q. And were you able to see anything?
2 A. I think we saw the second bullet, and just fire from a room. And
3 we all talked about it, that he must have shot from there.
4 Q. What is it exactly that you saw when you say they just fire from a
5 room. Can you be a bit more specific? What was it that you saw?
6 A. Or a blaze, a blaze coming from that premises. I don't know how
7 to explain. Something shone.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I understand what you were
9 saying. You heard something shine from the room. Now, my question is
10 what house? House opposite you? You placed a circle where the tree is,
11 on the tree. So with respect to the truck and your friend sitting in
12 front of the truck, I'm trying to position on the photograph and imagine
13 the house where this flash came from. Could you use your pen to indicate
14 that house?
15 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I'm going to show the witness a few more
16 photographs which hopefully will clarify this question. I have two more
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's try and make
19 things clear straight away.
20 MR. BOS: If we could just get an IC number for this photograph,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number, please.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC number 310.
24 MR. BOS:
25 Q. Witness, do you recognise what is depicted on this photograph?
1 A. I do.
2 Q. And what -- what are we seeing here?
3 A. I can see the two houses that I mentioned a moment ago as being
4 there on the hill.
5 Q. Could you again take the marker and put a circle around the houses
6 you have been referring to?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Witness, you have put a small circle around -- on one particular
9 house. You just said there were two houses and now you put a circle
10 around -- are you talking about houses or windows now, because this --
11 this is a ...
12 A. I'm talking about the house.
13 Q. So was this the house that -- from which you saw this blaze or
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And in 1993, did the house look exactly as it looks here on this
18 A. Yes, except that the upper floor didn't exist.
19 Q. I have one other photograph, and maybe again could we have an IC
20 number for this photograph?
21 And witness, could you please put your initials where you --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC number 311.
24 MR. BOS: And Witness, could you --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Witness,
1 put your initials on the photograph, on the document, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A technical question from me.
4 We can see this photograph with quite a number of houses, and you drew a
5 small circle on one of those houses. Now, that location, what was it
6 called generally, that area?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stotina.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So that locality,
9 when you were small, because you were nine at the time, did you know the
10 area well? Did you play there? Do you know the area well?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't play there, but I did know
12 it. I went there from time to time.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were you there quite a number of
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't say exactly, but I was
16 there, yes.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, the day you were
18 hit, did you know that there was a conflict going on between the HVO and
19 the BH Army?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not know.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You didn't know that there was
22 shooting that was going on in that district or in the town you lived in?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that there was shooting, but
24 I didn't know -- well, where we were in my street, everything was normal.
25 We would walk around, play there.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
2 MR. BOS:
3 Q. Could you please put your initials on this photograph that is
4 still on the ELMO. Okay. And this one, just in the right-hand corner,
5 put your initials, Witness, on the photograph with a marker. Then we know
6 you were the one who marked the photograph.
7 Could you please put your initials in the right-hand corner of the
8 photograph, Witness.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. And also on the next photograph. There is one other photograph
11 which he has to put -- okay.
12 Witness, this photograph I was about to show you, again, do you
13 recognise what's being depicted on this photograph?
14 A. Yes, I do recognise that.
15 Q. And can you put a marker and -- a circle around the house where
16 you think that the blaze came from in this photograph?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. BOS: And can we get an IC number for this photograph, please.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC 312.
21 MR. BOS: Now, if we could just now go back to the truck. This is
22 Exhibit P 09220, page number 6, for e-court purposes.
23 Q. So, Witness, this photograph will appear on your screen, and again
24 you will be able to mark it, this time with another marker. So it's
25 Exhibit P 09220, page number 6.
1 So, Witness, here we see the same photograph again that we saw
2 before. And could you please mark with the pen that will be given to you
3 by the usher the position of -- the place where you were seated when you
4 were shot at?
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you. And again maybe if could you put your initials in the
7 right-hand corner of the photograph and get an IC number for this?
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 313.
10 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, with the last witness, Mr. Scott made an
11 objection to diagrams being used that were not to scale. And here we
12 still have not received foundation that this truck actually has the same
13 or similar dimensions to the one that was involved in the incident. Sorry
14 to press the point. The witness gave a vague answer saying it was the
15 same type of truck. What we don't know -- the issue I raised was whether
16 it was the same model in terms of design, year of manufacture and so on.
17 And the only relevance is that if the Prosecution is going to make
18 something of the precise measurements, it may be of use to the expert in
19 some way, then it's important to know.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to ask him the
21 question. Witness, we see this truck, and we see the emblem of that
22 famous car. Is this truck the same model as the one in which you were at
23 the moment when you were injured?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's completely the same.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy, he says completely
1 the same.
2 MR. MURPHY: [Previous translation continues] ... take it further.
3 Thank you.
4 MR. BOS:
5 Q. Witness, I'm going to show you one more photograph, and then I'm
6 done. We can put this on the ELMO. Do you recognise the picture on the
7 ELMO, Witness?
8 A. Yes, I recognise it.
9 Q. What is it?
10 A. It's my arm showing the trace of the wound from the bullet.
11 Q. And is this where the bullet actually entered your arm, or where
12 it exited your arm?
13 A. No, it's the entry wound.
14 Q. If we can get an IC number for this photograph and then I'm done
15 with my questions, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 314.
18 MR. BOS: Thank you, Witness. That concludes my questions.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, before we give the floor
20 to the Defence, I have one last question. In your statement you say that
21 your friend Nihad Buric had also been hit, although lightly. And you had
22 three whizzes of the bullet. According to what you saw, was your friend
23 hit by the same bullet or was everybody hit by a separate bullet?
24 And lastly, were there casings found? Were the bullets found?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nihad Buric and I were hit by the
1 same bullet, the third one. And the bullets were found. Fragments were
2 found in my arm, my mother put that away somewhere and even fragments,
3 particles of the shirt were extracted from my arm. That's all I can tell
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis and Mr. Bos, we just
7 heard what the witness said. His mother put what was extracted away
8 somewhere. I would have asked the witness to have brought -- to bring
9 that. But maybe he wasn't asked about it. Maybe you didn't know about
11 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours, we didn't ask the witness about this.
12 And -- well, we could ask the witness now.
13 Q. Witness, do you still have these fragments?
14 A. Whenever I asked my mother, she told me she had thrown it away,
15 because she doesn't like to remember.
16 JUDGE PRANDLER: Mr. Heljic, I would like to ask you a question,
17 which as a matter of fact relates to the very last topic, what we have
18 been talking about. It is the question of the fragmentation bullet, and
19 now you told us that the remnants of that fragmentation bullet was in a
20 way first taken by your mother, but then it was thrown away. You also
21 mentioned in your statement that -- and I quote, "According to what I
22 heard later, it must -- I must have been hit by a fragmentation bullet."
23 Now, my question is, if you remember that in the medical statement
24 what you have received after your stay in the hospital, if the
25 fragmentation bullet was mentioned there or not, and I heard Mr. Bos
1 asking you about the statement which remained at home. Because it would
2 be important to really know if it was a bullet, a fragmentation bullet or
3 it was a simple one, and we -- we have here before our eyes a picture
4 of -- a photo of your arm with the entry wound, but I wonder, and probably
5 Mr. Bos will be able to tell us if you have another photo on the other
6 side where the exit wounds could have been shown. Probably it would be
7 also useful to know. It is my question.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, you are going to
9 answer, but I want to go straight to the point.
10 Witness, look at me, please. We saw a photo of your arm. Is it
11 the case that on the back of your arm there is an exit wound, or maybe you
12 have only one wound.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two holes out in the back.
14 MR. BOS: Your Honours, we don't have a photograph of -- of the
15 exit wounds, but since the witness is here and if it may be worthwhile,
16 that the witness would show his arm and show the exit wounds. I don't
17 know the best way to do it, maybe we can have it put on a camera and we
18 can make a still of it.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, would you -- can we
20 bother you to show us your arm, if -- if you mind then you don't have to,
21 but as you wish.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It doesn't matter to me. I'd like
23 you to see.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then show us. Pull off your top
25 and show us your arm.
1 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
2 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I suggest that we try to catch it on the
3 camera, so that we have it on the camera.
4 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I note that his arm is deformed
6 and on the back of the arm there are -- there is at least one exit wound.
7 Now move, change position. Yes, we see two exit wounds, the traces of two
8 exit wounds. And can we see the front again? Could you turn around again
9 so that we see the exit -- the entry wound again? Turn, please. Right.
10 Good. Thank you. You can put your top back on.
11 Very well. The Defence.
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Our time has been placed at the
13 disposal of other teams.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Registrar just told me that
16 we will have photos, so we are going to assign IC numbers to photos of the
17 arm of the injured part.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the two pictures will get one IC
19 number 315.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next counsel.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. We have no questions
22 for the gentleman, but we wish to thank him for coming here to give his
23 evidence. Thank you, sir.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next counsel. Thank you,
25 Mr. Karnavas.
1 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. President. Just one or two very quick
2 matters. If we could please, with the assistance of the Registrar, have
3 Prosecution Exhibit 9220 back again, the page 6, the picture of the blue
4 truck. 9220, page 6.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Murphy:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Heljic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. While the -- while the photograph is coming up on the screen
9 and -- oh, here it is. You indicated that you -- when you were shot you
10 were sitting down in the front passenger seat of the truck; is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And do you remember, roughly, how tall you were when you were nine
13 years old?
14 A. I don't remember exactly, but I was small.
15 Q. When you say small, you mean small for your age, small for a
17 A. Right.
18 Q. But you don't remember even approximately how tall?
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right. Now, you said that the truck that we see in the
21 photograph here was exactly the same model as the one involved in the
22 incident. Are you saying that the -- that in the city of Mostar, they are
23 using the same fleet of water trucks that they were using in 1993, the
24 same vehicles are still on the road?
25 A. I don't know what to answer, but it was the same truck. That much
1 I know. The model is the same, everything is the same. I know that
2 because sometime later I was in that truck, and I thought they were
3 actually photographing that very same truck.
4 Q. When you say "sometime later," when was that that you thought you
5 were in the same truck again?
6 A. Well, after perhaps three, four years. Because the truck was
7 lying there for a long time.
8 Q. Well, what I'm trying to ask you is, does the city of Mostar, like
9 most cities, replace its trucks from time to time and get newer models?
10 A. Well, I cannot tell you that with any certainty. But they do
11 change, the company has changed.
12 Q. Well, it seems from the -- the device on the front of this truck,
13 that it's a Mercedes truck of some kind; is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Do you remember whether that Mercedes symbol was on the front of
16 the truck the day you were shot?
17 A. Yes, I remember that because I like Mercedes.
18 Q. Do you know the -- the name or the number of the model truck?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. So you -- would this be fair, that you can't really tell us
21 whether there might have been some change of model between 1993 and 2004;
22 is that right?
23 A. Correct.
24 MR. MURPHY: I have nothing further, Mr. President. Thank you.
25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, with your leave, Mr. Praljak will have
1 some questions and then I will have some, I presume.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.
3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like
4 to clear up some technical matters as usual.
5 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. I'm really sorry this happened to you, and I'm sorry, but I do
9 have to ask you a couple of questions in order to get nearer to the truth
10 because the truth is what we are seeking.
11 Can I ask the usher to bring -- to take those photos to the ELMO.
12 Just one small detail. On the right-hand side it says that this truck is
13 not a Mercedes, it is an FAP truck, somebody just put a Mercedes emblem on
14 it. Can you read for us what is written there, if you can see it?
15 A. Yes, I can see, it's written FAP famos.
16 Q. But since everybody likes Mercedes, somebody put a Mercedes emblem
17 on it. Do you agree with me? It's just a small detail, but we have to be
18 careful about detail. Since you are there and we have a couple of
19 photographs, I would like us to review them together very carefully.
20 Can we please see the first one? On the ELMO, please. Here we
21 have the first photograph on the ELMO.
22 In the right bottom corner you just showed us a house and you said
23 a moment ago one floor was added to it. Do you see it?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Can you mark it with number 1, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. A larger -- a larger 1, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Now, below, do you see those two houses, they're called Sokol
5 buildings in Mostar. Behind those two houses in the direction of the
6 Neretva, do you see the mosque and then the two houses in front of the
7 mosque? The truck was outside these houses when you were shot. According
8 to all available information, the truck was standing outside those two
9 buildings. Do you see the mosque, the road goes down the Neretva, and
10 then we see there's two twin buildings. I'm not rushing you.
11 A. I can't find -- I can't understand this picture. It's a bit
13 Q. Well, next to these trees, those little fir trees and --
14 A. I think it's here, where the ...
15 Q. Do you recognise it? Do you know about these two buildings?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The truck was standing not on this side of the buildings that we
18 see, but on the opposite side, closer to the road; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was the truck standing outside the first building, the one that is
21 closer to us, or the other one?
22 A. The one that is closer to us.
23 Q. Because later we'll have a problem with the expert who drew the
24 truck as standing outside the second building. This photograph was taken
25 from higher up, from Stotina. Mark the first building outside of which
1 you believe the truck to have been standing.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. So the truck was behind that building. Thank you. Now, place
4 your signature and we'll get an IC number after that.
5 A. [Marks]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, based on this photo,
7 you marked 1 on the house, from which the shot came, and you put number 2
8 at the spot where the truck was parked. Is that the case?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you agree with me, sir, that the road where the truck was
12 parked is between the road and -- between that building and the Neretva
13 River? Is that correct?
14 A. Correct. But I have the impression that this is on old
16 Q. Never mind that. Let's take the second picture. This is the
17 street where the truck was standing, next to the pavement and this is
18 precisely the building you marked a moment ago. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That's the first building, and there is another one closer to us.
21 Can you mark this building with 1.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. And mark the spot where you remember the Golf car to have been
24 parked and also the spot of the truck.
25 A. Which one do you want first?
1 Q. Golf.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And put number 2 there.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And now closer to us, is that where the truck was?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then put an X and 3.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And your signature.
10 A. [Marks].
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number, please.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] We have an IC number. Maybe
14 we don't have an IC number for the previous one.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then the previous one.
16 IC number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 316.
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] For the second one.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this one now.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be IC number 317.
21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can we put back the previous one for a second longer. These
23 buildings up front in the distance, they are not at Stotina, they are
24 buildings on the street, right?
25 A. Right.
1 Q. Can you mark them with number 4?
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. They are in the same street, aren't they?
4 A. They are.
5 Q. Next photograph, please. You see, I tried to film this from
6 Stotina, and again you see the mosque, left centre, and these two
7 buildings next to the cypress trees, are those the same buildings we have
8 discussed before?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Put a number 1 on there.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. So these are the two buildings. Can we agree that the truck was
13 outside one of them, the question is which one. The truck was on the
14 right-hand side of that building, behind?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, draw an arrow to show where the truck would have been.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. That's a building.
19 A. Behind that building.
20 Q. Behind the building. Then mark this photo with your signature.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. This apartment block that you see here, it all existed before the
23 war. You were young then, but that existed before the war, there's
24 nothing new now?
25 A. But the two buildings that I just marked up front were not there.
1 Q. And what about these?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Which one wasn't there, according to you? These are -- the
4 buildings of the aluminum combine. Which ones do you believe were built
5 later, if you know?
6 A. I know some were built later, but I don't know exactly which,
7 because it was Switzerland that financed the renovation and rebuilding of
8 some of these.
9 Q. I'm not talking about repairs. Those buildings existed, they were
10 quite damaged, and they had burnt, and they were repaired. But they
11 existed while you were a child?
12 A. They did not exist. Maybe building had started before the war,
13 but they are finished -- they were finished only now.
14 Q. Was the frame of the buildings already complete, the concrete
15 walls, the roof, et cetera?
16 A. Some of it had been done, but not -- not all that, because I used
17 to play inside, you know.
18 Q. All right. Next photograph.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] IC number for the photo.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be IC number 318, Your Honours.
21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
22 Q. It's the same photograph but taken closer up. So could you mark
23 the building again to the right of which was the truck. Put a 1 there.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. And now tell me, these other buildings in front of
1 that one, but just stop to think a little, when you were a child, were
2 those buildings the way we see them now as structures, whether they were
3 in a poor state or not, that's different, but were they standing the way
4 they are now to the best of your recollections? If you don't remember,
5 then never mind.
6 A. As far as I remember, I don't think they were this high, and you
7 couldn't live in them. The construction work had stopped halfway.
8 Because we took some plastic pipes away from the buildings. We --
9 Q. Had the roof been constructed or not?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you sure about that?
12 A. Yes, I remember because I actually fell from one of those
14 Q. How many floors did they have? How many storeys would you say was
15 there? There was just the roof that was lacking or were there less
17 A. Perhaps one or two floors but not as tall and there was still no
19 Q. All right. Let's have an IC number for the photograph and you put
20 your initials.
21 A. [Marks]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please, Madam
24 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes IC number 319.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Once again a view from Stotina. A broader view, and we can see
2 that building again. Please mark it once again. This is an important
3 issue, so I have to keep asking you to look at the photographs. I'm
4 afraid I have been unsuccessful in providing an optic vision of this, and
5 it's a pity that the Prosecutor didn't put the model of a truck somewhere
6 around there to -- first to be able to locate it, so could you put a
7 number 1.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you. And tell us where the street towards the right was
10 where the truck was, just put an arrow.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you. And that would be number 2. A number 2, please. Yes.
13 Number 2 by the arrow, please.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And your signature at the bottom.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And an IC number, please.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 320.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Young man, when you go up to Stotina or when you did then or now,
22 from the edge of Stotina, can you see -- would you be able to see what
23 this photograph depicts? Is that a good view?
24 A. Yes, but this is right down low by the motorway.
25 Q. Well, look at the rooftops. We wouldn't be able to see the
1 rooftops if we were right down on the level of the motorway. So just take
2 a moment to think, when you were up at Stotina, could you have a view of
3 this kind?
4 A. This is a good view, but it's a little lower than you would be
5 looking at.
6 Q. All right. Just put a number 1 by the house where the truck was
7 and sign at the bottom, please.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. You were a young child, you don't remember, but -- IC number,
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 321.
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May we have that photograph
13 on our screens for a while yet.
14 Q. You said you didn't know about the war, you played out in the
15 streets and so on. Did you know that at that time there were soldiers
16 there, BH Army soldiers and that there were separation lines or anything
17 like that, do you know anything about any of those things?
18 A. Well, very little.
19 Q. All right. One more photograph please and that will be the last
20 one. I won't trouble you anymore. This is taken exactly from Stotina.
21 It wasn't lower down or anything. Is that when you were up on Stotina, is
22 that what you would see from this angle?
23 A. Well, yes, it is, but once again it seems that the person taking
24 the photograph climbed lower down. It's not up by the house, it was
25 higher up.
1 Q. This is exactly in front of the house, but moved forward a little
2 bit. So the person wasn't lower down. It's the view, but you don't have
3 to agree with me on that point. We'll deal with that with the expert.
4 Just mark the building once again, please, with the number 1.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And can you see the building in front of that number 1 building?
7 Do you remember that that house was standing at that time? There are a
8 lot of films about that and of course we will give evidence about that
9 later, but do you know that that house was in that location at that time?
10 A. I don't know. I told you --
11 Q. Yes, I understand you. Thank you for your effort. I'm sorry for
12 having to ask you these questions. And may I have an IC number for that
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your initials on the
15 photograph and we'll have an IC number.
16 Mr. Kovacic, useful, necessary and relevant questions, please.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC number 322.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.
19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Before -- or rather, earlier on in
22 response to the Prosecution's questions, you were showed Vukovic street
23 and the place where the truck was standing and you were asked about the
24 house behind the trees and you said that it was a new house built after
25 the events.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. You didn't live in Gojka Vukovica Street, did you,
3 where you were wounded?
4 A. I did live on Gojka Vukovica Street, but a little further up, not
6 Q. How far away, roughly? How much further?
7 A. Well, 100, 200 metres.
8 Q. Does that mean that you consider that you knew this part of the
9 street well?
10 A. Yes, I knew it well.
11 Q. Very well, thank you. You also said today when you were asked
12 where you were sitting in the cabin of the truck. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Judging by your statement, the one you gave to the Prosecutor in
15 2001, and I'm going to say what you said there, and you can confirm it or
16 not. "The driver was on the left at the wheel, then the second person
17 next to him was Nihad Buric"; is that right? According to what you said.
18 No, I beg your pardon, you said you were sitting right next to the driver;
19 is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then to your right there was Nihad Buric; is that right? And
22 then in the next place, right by the right-hand door was Saric Ermin; is
23 that right? Ermin Saric?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can we therefore conclude that you were sitting somewhere in the
1 middle of the truck, closer to the left-hand side to the wheel, centre
3 A. I was closer to the right, because the driver was a little angry
4 and said, "Move over," because he couldn't shift gears, because of us.
5 Q. Do you think -- are you saying that you were sitting towards the
6 left or right of centre?
7 A. No, right of centre. Further from the wheel.
8 Q. In response to a Prosecution question, you said that you had seen
9 a flash from a house at Stotina; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I'll read out what you said about that in the statement you gave
12 in 2001, which you confirmed today as being your very own statement. You
13 said, "The hits must have been shot from the direction of Stotina," that
14 was your conclusion. And then you also said that before you were wounded
15 you did not know that the HVO had positions at Stotina.
16 So let's break that up into parts. First, is it true as you said
17 previously that before that incident took place you did not know that the
18 HVO allegedly had positions at Stotina?
19 A. I did not know they had, no.
20 Q. You didn't, right. Now, is it true and correct that in your
21 statement of 2001, you said that the hits must have come from the
22 direction of Stotina?
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. Is it also correct that you made no mention of having seen any
25 flash from the place or house at Stotina that the hit had come from,
1 there's nothing about this flash in your statement; is that right?
2 A. I apologise, but I told the story quite a few times.
3 Q. All right. Let me ask the question in a different way then. In
4 your previous statement, given to the Prosecution in 2001, you said that
5 you consider - shall I put it that way - that your conclusion was that the
6 hit had come from Stotina; is that right? Is it right that when you gave
7 your statement you made no mention of having seen a flash from a house at
9 A. Possibly they didn't ask me.
10 Q. So you think they didn't ask you about that? Is that your answer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But, Witness, you were expressly asked where the hits could have
13 come from. You were asked that precisely?
14 A. What do you want me to answer now?
15 Q. Were you asked where the shots came from? That was the contents,
16 the main subject of the interview.
17 A. Well, I can't remember now.
18 Q. Do you agree then that it was for the first time today here in
19 court that you stated that you had seen a flash coming from the house?
20 A. I don't agree with that, no.
21 Q. So you think you said that earlier, before?
22 A. Sir, I apologise, but I talked a lot about this. Many people came
23 to ask me what had happened, how things had happened before I came to The
24 Hague as well, from the civilian victims I was asked about all that.
25 Q. Since you mentioned, and from this answer, it would appear that a
1 lot of people asked you about those events. Let's go back to that then.
2 From the documents that I have provided for -- to us by the Prosecution,
3 you were first interviewed in detail about the incident when you were
4 wounded on the 29th of August, 2001, in Mostar; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, you are spending a
7 lot of time on this. You know that the witness took the solemn
8 declaration and that he is answering under oath. And as far as we Judges
9 are concerned, that carries weight. If other interviews and testimonies
10 fail to mention this -- but what is important for us is what is said here
11 in the courtroom under the solemn declaration.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to check
13 if he had perhaps told the investigators that and it wasn't recorded,
14 because I would like to draw attention to the fact that the interview in
15 2001 was only devoted to this particular incident. That is the only
16 subject that was discussed.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, the flash that you saw, did
18 you -- is this the first time you recounted that incident or did you
19 mention the flash to a lot of other people, maybe even to the
20 investigators of the OTP? To the best of your recollections.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, I did talk
22 about that to other people too. I can't remember if I actually told them
23 that or whether they asked me, but I know that we in the truck discussed
24 that too, myself and my two friends, that there was a flash from up there.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your friend Nihad, who was also
1 wounded and sitting next to you but not as badly as yourself, did he see
2 the flash as well?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he said he did. That's
4 correct. And he pointed to it. He saw where it came from. He pointed to
5 the place where he saw it.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Mr. Bos, Nihad, the
7 other victim, did he make a statement or not?
8 MR. BOS: I would have to double-check. I'm not 100 per cent
9 sure. We have another statement from Mr. Mustafa Buric, but I can't say
10 100 per cent. I would have to double-check. I don't want to say this
11 here on the record.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And Mustafa Buric saw nothing?
13 Because he went into the building.
14 Anyway, you're saying Witness, that your friend sitting next to
15 you saw the flash just like you did.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the Defence can call that
18 witness, of course, in due course.
19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have just
20 one more short question for the witness.
21 Q. You said in your statement and you partially confirmed that today
22 that at the hospital you spent about three months because of the wounding.
23 Now, when you were leaving the hospital, did you receive any medical
24 records or documentation, some letter of discharge or anything like that?
25 A. Perhaps my father did because my father came to fetch me. I
1 should have stayed on a little longer in the hospital, but I wanted to go
2 home. I couldn't take it anymore. I know it was late at night when my
3 father came to fetch me and he said, "Why don't you stay another night,
4 stay for tonight." And I said, "I can't." So then we left together. And
5 I can't remember if he took the discharge papers or not.
6 Q. So you are saying you don't know?
7 A. That's right. I don't know.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, the investigators in 2001, when you talked to
9 them and gave the statement and in 2004 the reconstruction when it was
10 filmed, did anyone ask you whether you had any medical records, discharge
11 papers or whatever?
12 A. I can't remember now.
13 Q. Thank you. No more questions. I have completed my
14 cross-examination. Thank you, Witness.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart.
16 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:
18 Q. Witness, when your friend's father parked the vehicle on the
19 occasion you described, did he park right outside the building where he
20 was to go and do work on a sewer pipe?
21 A. He parked in front of the building and I think he was supposed to
22 do work behind the building because we didn't see him. He went off
24 Q. And then you have mentioned the Volkswagen Golf. What was the
25 distance between the truck that you were in and the Volkswagen Golf
1 vehicle when they were both parked?
2 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, but one and a half to two metres.
3 Q. And it was the front of the Volkswagen vehicle, was it, that was
4 facing -- was nearest to the front of the truck you were in? Is that
6 A. No.
7 Q. So then the alternative then is that you say both vehicles were
8 facing in the same direction? That's right?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. So you were behind, to get it absolutely clear, your truck was
11 behind the Volkswagen vehicle?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And of course the driver got out, as you have described. You said
14 in your statement, and you mentioned a few minutes ago that you had to sit
15 close together and the driver had complained, as drivers often do about
16 small boys, that he didn't have enough room. Correct?
17 A. While driving, he complained while driving, while we were on our
18 way there.
19 Q. This is what we are coming to. It was a bench seat, wasn't it?
20 It was a bench seat all across the vehicle?
21 A. I think there were just two seats next to the driver.
22 Q. All right. Your statement says you had to sit close together on
23 the small bench next to the driver's seat, right. When the driver got out
24 you had a bit more space, so did you -- did you spread yourselves a bit
25 and move over?
1 A. Well, yes. We did a bit. We played around a bit.
2 Q. So you would have moved over towards the left, in the direction
3 you were facing, you would have spread yourself a bit, move yourself a
4 more comfortable, move over to the left. That's obvious, isn't it?
5 A. Well, I don't know. We pushed around a bit. I can't everything.
6 Q. Already. Now you said you heard the sound of a second flying
7 bullet. That is in your statement. Have we got it right this morning
8 when you talked about seeing fire in the window, you appeared to be
9 talking about that second shot. Is that understanding correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. In your statement you say that you heard the sound of a second
12 flying bullet, "And I saw that this bullet impacted in either the motor
13 hood or front windshield of the yellow Volkswagen Golf. This second shot
14 appeared to be in the direct line with the first shot." And you say, "I
15 remember that I said to my friend something like, look, the car in front
16 of us is hit and it is moving closer to us."
17 So are you saying that you made those observations about the
18 second bullet and where it hit on the ground, made those comments to your
19 friend and also saw the fire in the window connected with that shot? Is
20 that your evidence?
21 A. Well, we talked about it in the truck.
22 Q. You see, I'm going to put, because the tradition I come from
23 involves putting things fairly and squarely. I'm going to put to you that
24 this is not true. You did not see any fire in a window, and that this is
25 a new idea that you have produced today. What do you say?
1 A. What do you want me to say? What can I say? You can think --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... would like you to say the
3 truth, which is what I'm inviting you to do. This is your chance to
4 answer the question under solemn declaration as truthfully as possible.
5 Let me make it clear. I am saying that you have produced this for the
6 first time and it is not true that you saw fire from a window on that day.
7 A. We did see this flash. I remember talking about it in the truck.
8 We said, "Look, that's where the shooting is coming from." I can't
9 remember everything, I was a child after all, but I do remember that.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that you saw the flash now?
11 Is that what you're saying?
12 A. We said to each other, "Look at that, there's shooting." We found
13 it strange, unusual.
14 Q. Okay. Let's get back to -- do you say you saw the flash?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you saw the flash and you saw the bullet hit the road between
17 you and the Volkswagen vehicle? That's what you say, do you?
18 A. I don't know about this vehicle in between the Golf and us.
19 Q. No I'm not suggesting any vehicle, let's not get confused. Maybe
20 there is a translation or maybe we're going too fast. Let's get it clear.
21 According to you there was a gap between your truck and the Volkswagen
22 vehicle. That's right, isn't it?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And you saw three bullets, one impacted on the surface of the road
25 between the two vehicles. That's right, is it? That's the first one.
1 It's what your statement says.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the second one you say in your statement -- we read this
4 before, but it impacted in either the motor hood or the front windshield.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. The way you have described the vehicles parked, that was at the
8 far end of the Volkswagen vehicle, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes, yes. But you can see this from a height, because the truck
10 was high up. So you could see this.
11 Q. Witness, I'm not necessarily questioning that. Just make it
12 clear. You personally, and I'm distinguishing you from your friend, you
13 saw those things, the first bullet hitting the surface of the road, the
14 second bullet hitting the vehicle. You saw both those things yourself,
16 A. That's right.
17 MR. STEWART: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to end there.
19 Mr. Bos.
20 MR. BOS: Just one clarification, because the record now doesn't
21 read the way it was, I think.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Bos:
23 Q. Witness, the first bullet, where did the first bullet impact on
24 the street? Was this in front of the Volkswagen or on the -- behind the
1 A. In front of the Volkswagen.
2 MR. BOS: I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, for -- ah, we
4 have people on their feet. Mr. Petkovic, quickly. The Judges have
5 received enough information, so go ahead, if you must.
6 Cross-examination by the Accused Petkovic:
7 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the
8 witness how he was able to see the bullet hit the ground.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How shall I explain that? I just
10 saw dust on the road. I remember that.
11 Q. And at what time did the shot come during the day?
12 A. Between 4.00 and 5.00. I can't be more exact.
13 Q. Did you ever shoot from a rifle during the day in your life?
14 A. Yes, when I was in the army.
15 Q. Can you see a flash during the day when you shoot from a rifle
16 during the day?
17 A. Not during the day, but the room was dark.
18 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no
19 further questions.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, Witness,
21 for coming. I'm going to ask the usher to escort you out of the
23 Mr. Mundis, as far as next week is concerned, before the expert
24 witness comes in, we have four more witnesses to hear who were victims.
25 Is that right?
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. That is, in fact, correct.
2 I -- hopefully we'll be able to get through those four witnesses as
3 expeditiously as possible.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 MR. MUNDIS: I did, at the end of the last break, circulate a more
6 complete trial schedule for the month of February, and I will point out
7 that we've completed that and filled out the rest of the month of February
8 in terms of witnesses and I will also point out that one of the witnesses
9 that was previously scheduled whose name I'm not going to say in public,
10 that witness has now been rescheduled or will be rescheduled. His name
11 has been taken off the -- for the month of February, but we anticipate
12 calling him at a later point in time, due to some scheduling conflicts.
13 So I have circulated a new schedule and we will call the next two
14 scheduled sniping witnesses at the commencement of the hearing on Monday
15 to be followed by the two that are listed for Monday.
16 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, very briefly. May I have just a few
17 seconds on a procedural matter. Your Honour, the Prosecution has filed
18 some objections to documents tendered by the Stojic Defence which were put
19 to the witness Jovan Rajkov. Your Honour, we do intend to file a brief
20 response. Due to the fact that I was out of town for a couple of days,
21 may I have one more day to do that and file it by tomorrow?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because you were absent, yes, if
23 you would like. One more day.
24 Ms. Tomic, you were on your feet a number of times.
25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was on my
1 feet because our turn was to cross-examine the witness next, and we had
2 one or two questions, but I didn't -- it never came to me because things
3 turned out the way they did.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Tomic, I thought --
5 well, for the transcript, can you tell us which questions you wanted to
6 ask the witness?
7 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to follow on from
8 what Mr. Murphy said and ask a question with respect to when the witness
9 saw the truck for the first time. Because it turns out that he saw the
10 truck three or four years after the incident and then looked at the truck.
11 So I was interested in hearing who took him to the location, whether the
12 truck was in the location and when he looked over the truck. And after, I
13 think it was Mr. Stewart's examination or Mr. Petkovic, this gave rise to
14 another question, because the witness said that the room was dark from
15 where the flash had come. And I think that's a very interesting question.
16 If it was dark in the cabin he was in, as in terms of visibility and so
17 on, that he explained it in that way. Because we don't know what room he
18 had in mind.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to bear in mind the
20 questions that you had the intention to ask, but unfortunately did not
21 have a chance to. So he is going to have to come back on Monday at 2.15.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of
24 February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.