Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13566

1 Tuesday, 6 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Today, Tuesday, the 6th of February, 2007, I'd like to greet everyone

11 present, the Prosecution, the Defence teams, the accused and everyone else

12 in the courtroom.

13 There are two oral decisions I would like to render very rapidly

14 and then I'll give the floor to the registrar so that he can provide us

15 with IC numbers. The first oral decision concerns the admission into

16 evidence of documents presented through Witness CX. This witness appeared

17 on the 22nd of January, 2006. The Chamber decides to admit the following

18 documents presented by the Prosecution since they have a certain probative

19 value and a certain pertinence. P 05554.

20 I'll re-read that -- that's fine. P 08432 under seal. P 0895 [as

21 interpreted] under seal, P 08898 under seal.

22 There's an error. I'll reread that it's P 08895. 08895. P

23 09833. That is also under seal. P 08895 is also under seal. And then

24 finally IC 00239.

25 The second oral decision that concerns the documents related to

Page 13567

1 the Witness DA who appeared on the 30th of January, 2007. The Chamber

2 hereby decides to admit into evidence the following documents tendered by

3 the Prosecution through the IC list, IC 00273, given that they have a

4 certain probative value and a certain relevance. The Chamber would like

5 to point out that the documents P 08157 and IC 00207 referred to in these

6 lists are admitted under seal. In addition, the Chamber hereby decides to

7 admit into evidence the following documents tendered by the Stojic and

8 Praljak Defence teams. These documents are mentioned in the IC list, IC

9 00274, and in the IC list IC 00275, the reason being that these documents

10 have a certain probative value and a certain relevance.

11 The Chamber would also like to point out that document 2D 00339

12 referred to in the IC list 00274 is admitted under seal. The Chamber

13 notes that the Prlic, Petkovic, Coric, and Pusic Defence teams have not

14 requested that any other documents be admitted into evidence.

15 I'll now turn to Mr. Mundis before the expert witness is called we

16 have two other witnesses who hear, and I believe that one of them has

17 requested protective measures, but first of all - I apologise,

18 Mr. Mundis - the registrar also has some work to do able now give him the

19 floor.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. So two parties

21 have submitted a list of documents to be tendered through Witness Damir

22 Katica, and that's the OTP list, shall be IC 350, while the list submitted

23 by 3D shall be given the Exhibit number IC 351.

24 Again two parties have submitted list of documents to be tendered

25 through Witness Munib Klaric. The OTP list shall be given Exhibit number

Page 13568

1 IC 352, while the Defence 3D Defence list shall be given Exhibit number IC

2 353.

3 Finally, there's also been a request, a list to -- list of

4 exhibits to be tendered by OTP in relation to --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll deal with this matter

6 later.

7 Mr. Mundis, as I was saying, we have another two witnesses to

8 hear. In order to save time, on behalf of my colleagues, but yesterday

9 Judge Prandler clearly stated this, but what is important for us is to

10 know what the nature of the wound is and where the shot was fired from.

11 Everything else is of secondary importance. If you focus on these two

12 elements, it will enable us to save time. Try to do your best because it

13 is only on that basis that we, the Judges, will be able to rule.

14 Mr. Mundis, you may have the floor.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you very much, Your Honours, and good afternoon

16 to everyone in and around the courtroom. We appreciate the guidance from

17 the Trial Chamber as always. The next witness will be taken by my

18 colleague Ms. Gillett.

19 MS. GILLETT: As Your Honour has just pointed out, there is an

20 application for protective measures with respect to this witness, somewhat

21 unusually as there has been no written application as would normally be

22 the case.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Should we move into -- let's

24 move into private session.

25 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13569

1 [Private session]

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11 Pages 13570-13585 redacted. Private session















Page 13586

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Gillett, concerning the

6 witness's profession, please avoid mentioning it.

7 MS. GILLETT: Of course, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 Your Honour, for the purposes of the public record and a very

9 abridged summary, given that this witness is called pursuant to Rule 92

10 ter, this witness in his statement gives evidence relating to sniping

11 incidents in the town of Mostar.

12 Examination by Ms. Gillett:

13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Witness, do you remember being

14 interviewed by somebody from the Office of the Prosecutor back in 2001?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And at that time did you answer the questions asked of you

17 truthfully?

18 A. Yes. I was duty-bound to tell the truth.

19 Q. And did you do so voluntarily?

20 A. Yes, of course.

21 Q. Now, at the end of that interview do you recall the statement

22 being read back to you in your own language?

23 A. Yes, it was read back to me. And I signed it even.

24 MS. GILLETT: I'd be grateful if the witness could be shown the

25 B/C/S and English versions of his statement which are marked as Exhibit

Page 13587

1 9863.

2 Q. Witness, you'll see under the first tab of that bundle that's been

3 given to you there are both an English and a B/C/S version of the

4 statement. In due course I will be asking for this statement to be

5 admitted under seal.

6 Witness, if you could take a look at the statement and confirm

7 whether or not that is your signature or initials on each of the pages?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have you had the opportunity to read this statement --

10 JUDGE PRANDLER: Ms. Gillett. I'm sorry to interrupt you,

11 Ms. Gillett. I would like to only ask one question -- or, rather, a

12 correction in the witness's statement, because you just referred to it.

13 Since I'm not supposed to mention his profession, I would like to say that

14 in the fourth paragraph of his written statement, both in the English and

15 the B/C/S version, probably there is a problem, fourth paragraph, that he

16 volunteered in a certain year, 1959, and later on he became a professional

17 one. But on the other hand, of course, at that time he was only seven

18 years -- pardon.

19 So it is only what I would like to ask for a correction here,

20 because he was very young then according to this statement. If you see my

21 point, that he couldn't be a volunteer in that very year because of his

22 age. Thank you.

23 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I'm about to ask the witness whether or

24 not he has any additions or corrections to make to the statement, and

25 perhaps for these purposes it might be prudent to pass briefly into

Page 13588

1 closed -- private session in order that I can ask him about the date

2 concerned.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session.

4 [Private session]

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Page 13589

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.


9 Q. Witness, prior to coming into court today or indeed yesterday,

10 have you had the opportunity to re-read your statement?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. And having re-read the statement, is there anything in that

13 statement that you wish to withdraw or to correct?

14 A. No, nothing. I stand by my statement, what I said in 2001, and

15 what I signed I say now.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. In due course the Prosecution will be

17 tendering this, as I mentioned, under seal.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.


20 Q. Now, Witness, you mention on the second page of your statement a

21 person whose name I won't mention in open session in order not to identify

22 you, a person who was killed on the -- back in 1994, and you mention where

23 you were when you saw this, and once again I won't mention that in open

24 session. What I want to ask you to clarify is at the time when you saw

25 this, how far away were you from the incident?

Page 13590

1 A. Well, roughly I would say between 12 and 15 metres.

2 Q. And was there anything obstructing your vision?

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to speed up

5 and save time. In your written statement you tell us of four events, but

6 actually in the -- of the four you only saw something happen in one of

7 them. All the rest is hearsay. So what we're interested in is what you

8 saw, and what you saw was on the 2nd of March, 1994, and you were 12

9 metres from where the person fell. We already heard witnesses about that.

10 Now, what I am interested in is this: From where you were, did you see

11 where the shot came from?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I will deal with that matter straight

14 away.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.


17 Q. Witness, in 2004 did you meet with an investigator and a

18 photographer of the ICTY in Mostar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, at that time were you asked a series of questions that were

21 relating to the incident that His Honour the Judge has just mentioned and

22 that is mentioned in your statement?

23 A. Yes. We carried out a reconstruction of the event.

24 Q. And do you recall was this question and answer session

25 videotaped?

Page 13591

1 A. Yes. There were two video cameras taping and one or two others.

2 MS. GILLETT: Perhaps we can pass into private session because I'm

3 going to ask if --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

5 [Private session]

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Page 13592











11 Pages 13592-13651 redacted. Private session















Page 13652

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. I'm

14 going to give the floor to the registrar who has two numbers to give us.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. In relation to

16 the OTP response to the list of documents tendered by the 3D through

17 Witness Dzevad Hadzizukic. The exhibit will be -- become 369. There is

18 another list provided by OTP in response to the lives documents tendered

19 by the 3D Witness Munib Klaric which will become IC 370.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21 Before we've the next witness shown in I'd like to turn to Mr. Mundis.

22 For the expert witness tomorrow, Mr. Mundis, as you know we made an oral

23 decision on the duration and we told you, you would have two hours and the

24 Defence would have four hours. Since we're under great time constraints

25 and are running late, as the Presiding Judge and having the job of

Page 13653

1 directing the proceedings, I think that it is relevant and useful for the

2 good of one and all to say that when embarking on your

3 examination-in-chief you should not take it in the American way but in a

4 more efficacious way and that the examination-in-chief should start off by

5 asking the expert witness or, rather, with respect to the CV of the

6 witness that can be done very quickly and then to tell us what material

7 was at the base of his report. He -- that he went on location, that he

8 met with the investigator, that he took photographs, et cetera, et cetera,

9 to explain to us how he prepared all that.

10 And then a third stage that he makes a brief expose of the weapons

11 used by snipers, by sniper X. That's already in his report, of course,

12 but he can tell us what type of weapon was most probably used and that he

13 could give us a brief expose on calibre, the calibres of the bullets.

14 That's also in his report, so he can do that too. And after that you

15 could ask him perhaps to comment on all the incidents that he mentions and

16 deals with in his report, the first case, second case, third case, et

17 cetera, that we can place maps established by him incidents by incidents

18 on the overhead projector which he can explain to us. For case number 1

19 he drew incident, positioning the victim, the direction, the trajectory,

20 supposed trajectory of the projectile, and so on, so he can comment the

21 sketch drawn by him for each individual case, and then he can say that in

22 his opinion the shot came from 600 or whatever metres under such-and-such

23 an angle and so on. And by asking precise, specific questions and by

24 hearing the comments of the expert witness, we will have a vision of the

25 work done by the expert. And then the Defence, within the four hours at

Page 13654

1 their disposal, will have ample time to go back if they deem necessary on

2 any specific points.

3 Now, as we've already heard the victims, we Judges already have

4 all the facts of the problem, and we shall intervene with questions to the

5 witness, because what is important for us is to know where the shots came

6 from.

7 So having said that, Mr. Mundis, think about it all in the

8 interests of time and being as efficacious as possible.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Just two very brief

10 comments. It -- what you've outlined is virtually identical with the play

11 plan that we will use with the expert tomorrow, so I think we're certainly

12 on the right track there. And I would hate to take all the credit for the

13 American style and, of course, we stole that from the British. So thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Well, we'll see

16 whether the British style is efficacious. We'll test that tomorrow.

17 So there we have it. Let's have the next witness shown in, and

18 once again we'll try and get through the proceedings as rapidly as

19 possible.

20 MR. STEWART: It's not the only thing they stole, Your Honour.

21 Would they give us the language back sometime as well?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Mundis agrees

23 with you, Mr. Stewart, there. If there's no answer, then I think that

24 will mean agreement.

25 MR. MUNDIS: On this occasion, the silence can be taken to mean

Page 13655

1 agreement. I will reserve in other situations, however.

2 [The witness enters court]


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Since we're all making

6 jokes, if everyone were to give back to everybody else what they had taken

7 from them in the first place, everybody would be left with very little.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness, good

9 evening. I assume you can hear me. Can you give me your name, surname,

10 and date of birth, please?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Enes Vukotic. I was born

12 on the 10th of August, 1940.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

14 occupation?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am an economist, a retired

16 economist.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Sir, have you ever

18 testified in a court of law before or is this the first time?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never testified in a court of

20 law, although I have made statements.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would you now go

22 ahead and read the solemn declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please be

Page 13656

1 seated.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number of explanations. From

4 me you are going to start off answering questions put by the Prosecution.

5 They will also probably be showing you some documents. And after that it

6 will be the turn of the Defence. They will be asking you questions within

7 the cross-examination. And the Judges might also ask you questions, if

8 they deem necessary.

9 The object of your coming here is to testify about the shots that

10 took place in the town of Mostar, so it is within that framework that you

11 are going to give your contribution and testimony. So without further

12 ado, I give the floor to the Prosecution for a brief summary of the basic

13 points of your written statement.

14 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honours. Good evening to

15 Your Honours, Mr. President, to everybody else in the courtroom. I'll now

16 proceed with the brief summary which was drawn from the 65 ter statements.

17 In this case the witness lived in Donja Mahala and Mostar and was

18 a -- I'll change this to a member of the Territorial Defence and later

19 joined the ABiH army. On the 13th of May, 1993, the witness left home

20 around 4.00 to 5.00 p.m. He was not wearing any military clothing. His

21 neighbour was with him. They got to the pedestrian bridge which goes from

22 Donja Mahala to the area of Luka. The witness was aware that there were

23 snipers shooting at people on the bridge from the houses on the hill

24 called Stotina. They would shoot at anyone including women and children.

25 When they got to the bridge, some people there actually warned them to

Page 13657

1 take care because the bridge was being shot at. His neighbour ran across

2 the bridge and made it into the alley on the other side without being shot

3 at. When the witness saw he was safe, he ran across the bridge, turned

4 left, and then stopped near the entrance of the alleyway close to a

5 container behind which police officers were hiding. The witness stopped

6 for about 30 seconds and was hit in the leg above the right knee. He was

7 taken to the hygienic institution and stayed in the hospital for two

8 days.

9 And that would conclude the summary.

10 Examination by Mr. Flynn:

11 Q. Good evening, Mr. Vukotic. Did you provide written statement to

12 the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY on the 3rd

13 of September, 2001?

14 A. I don't remember the date, but, yes, I did make a statement.

15 Q. And at that time you provided this written statement did you

16 answer the questions of the investigator fully and truthfully?

17 A. Yes, certain, truthfully.

18 Q. And did you do so freely and without any coercion?

19 A. Yes, yes, freely.

20 Q. And at the conclusion of that interview was your statement read

21 back to you in the Bosnian language?

22 A. Yes. Yes, it was.

23 MR. FLYNN: Your Honours, at this stage with the assistance of

24 Madam Usher, I wonder if the witness could be presented with a bundle of

25 exhibits which includes his statement, which is Exhibit 09864.

Page 13658

1 Now, I'll mention to Your Honours that that is name in this

2 statement that I'd prefer not to have made public and for that reason

3 perhaps the statement could be under seal or, alternatively, perhaps

4 Your Honour would wish to make an order redacting the name in the

5 statement. It's the name of his neighbour, and I just want to mention

6 it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to place it under

8 seal. That will be simpler. So, Mr. Registrar, the number 9864 exhibit

9 will be under seal.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we just know the reason why the

11 name's not to be mentioned?

12 MR. FLYNN: Well, I just wouldn't like to mention this person's

13 name given the recent ruckus that occurred in Mostar. He might be

14 somewhat afraid if his name were mentioned in court.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's not good enough. We have lots

16 and lots of names mentioned here. I have no wish to cause any trouble for

17 any particular gentleman but it's simply not good enough. It's entirely

18 speculative whether there's any problem, and we have names mentioned lots

19 and lots of times.

20 MR. FLYNN: I'm not aware of any difficulties or likely to be any

21 difficulties but given we didn't have the consent of this person, I

22 thought it prudent not to mention his name. However, if the Court rules

23 otherwise, so be it.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The name is the name

25 of the person who crossed the bridge first; is that right? Is that the

Page 13659

1 name?

2 MR. FLYNN: That's correct, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understand correctly,

4 you're going to contact this person, are you, to hear his position? And

5 if he has nothing against it, we can lift the seal.

6 MR. FLYNN: I can do that, if Your Honour wishes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed.


9 Q. Mr. Vukotic, could you look at the first exhibit on 9864. This

10 shows an English and Bosnian statement given to the ICTY. Could you in

11 particular look at the English version, and you'll see some signatures at

12 the end. Is it correct that this is your signature?

13 A. Yes, that is my signature.

14 Q. Now, do you recall that you met with an investigator and myself

15 yesterday morning when you came to The Hague?

16 A. Yes, I remember that. I did.

17 Q. And at that meeting do you remember that I asked you whether you

18 had -- whether or not you had re-read your statement and whether you

19 wanted to make any corrections to your statement, and is it correct to say

20 that you had no corrections to make?

21 A. I read my statement. I completely agree with it, and I don't

22 think there's any need to add or subtract anything.

23 Q. Do you remember that you mentioned some additional information to

24 us?

25 A. I really don't know. Could you remind me? I don't know what you

Page 13660

1 mean, what you have in mind.

2 Q. Well, I'll ask you -- I'll ask you very few questions for the

3 benefit of the Court to expound on that purpose. In your statement on

4 page 2 you said you knew there were snipers shooting at people on the

5 bridge, and they were in Stotina.

6 A. Yes, yes. I knew that. But up until that day they were shooting

7 people walking by on the pedestrian bridge.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excuse me for interrupting, sir,

9 but just to be quite clear on about what you're saying, you were a member

10 of the BH army. Can you tell us what unit you belonged to the day you

11 were fired at.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he was a member of the 1st

13 Company of the 2nd Battalion of Donja Mahala.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what was the name of the

15 commander of the 1st Company and of the 2nd Battalion?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, they would change

17 frequently. The company commanders would change frequently, so I really

18 done remember who was the commander at that time. But if necessary, let

19 me stress that I am a member -- was a member of the Territorial Defence,

20 and I became a member in June 1992 of the Territorial Defence when the war

21 with the Serbs began. I was there for a short time and was then dismissed

22 along with some other people of my own age, and the reason given for my

23 dismissal was logistics, that the army or logistics didn't have enough

24 resources, didn't have food to feed us all, nor did they have enough

25 ammunition, weapons, and cigarettes. And so we were told that the army

Page 13661

1 didn't need us any more and they let us go. But when the war with the

2 Croats started, and that was on the 9th of May, 1993, officially, I was

3 asked to return to help out and to be a guard, if nothing else. Now, who

4 the commander was at that point in time I really can't say. I can't

5 remember.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Just a follow-up

7 question. You were, therefore, a member of the 2nd Battalion. Now, the

8 2nd Battalion, what area of activity was that in, area of operation.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence of this part of Mostar,

10 Donja Mahala, where I lived, and standing guard -- doing guard duty at the

11 Bulevar and Podvelezje. That was more or less the general location and

12 what our company was in charge of.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for

14 specifying. Please proceed.


16 Q. Just on that subject, Mr. Vukotic, could you just for the

17 assistance of Their Honours indicate if you had a uniform as a member of

18 the ABiH? Were you provided with a uniform?

19 A. To be quite frank there weren't enough to go round. Not

20 ammunition, or weapons, and especially uniforms. So I didn't have a

21 uniform at all. I wore civilian clothes when I went to do my guard

22 duty.

23 Q. And in your statement, on the critical day, the 13th of May, you

24 said you were dressed in civilian clothes. Could you tell Your Honours

25 what colour those clothes were, and if you could describe them.

Page 13662

1 A. As far as I remember, I was wearing jeans, faded jeans, they were

2 old jeans, and I had trainers on my feet, and my upper half, well, I had a

3 jacket of some kind and a T-shirt. Light clothing. That was intentional,

4 so I could move around or run across the bridge faster.

5 Q. And you also said --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Running across the bridge. Did

7 you have a weapon that was apparent, visible, or was it hidden on you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I had absolutely nothing on me,

9 absolutely nothing.


11 Q. Were you on duty at the time you crossed the bridge?

12 A. I wasn't on duty. Unfortunately, I was forced to go to hospital

13 to fetch medicines for my daughter who had been wounded three days before

14 that by a shell, the shrapnel of a shell. So I had to cross to the

15 opposite bank of the Neretva to go to the hospital and get the medicines

16 for her.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, sir. I've been

18 told of an event. If you don't feel well at any point in time, please

19 don't hesitate to let us know and we can take a break. Do you understand,

20 sir? Any time you're feeling unwell.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I can continue. That was

22 just a moment, a moment of weakness.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, I know that

24 you're not to be stressed. Sometimes questions can be very stressing --

25 stressful.

Page 13663

1 So I would like to ask everybody to take note of that, to bear it

2 if mind.

3 If you don't feel well, don't hesitate to let me know, because

4 your evidence is important but your health seems to me to be more

5 important. So please do not hesitate. If at any time you're having

6 problems, tell us and we'll stop.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, but I think I'm

8 ready to continue now that I've calmed down.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor, I have a

10 question following up from what the President has just said. Your friend

11 and neighbour, Witness - we won't mention the name - who was with you, was

12 he a military man? When you were with him at that time, what was he

13 wearing? Was he wearing military clothes?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was last member of the BH army.

15 What his assignment was at that particular time I really don't remember.

16 And I think, although I can't claim, but I don't think he was wearing a

17 military uniform, although I am not sure. But I don't think he was,

18 because we crossed the Neretva on private business. Where he was going I

19 can't remember, but I think -- I can't claim, but I don't think he was

20 wearing military uniform, precisely because he was afraid of snipers while

21 crossing the bridge.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did he have a visible weapon

23 on him or a weapon that he had hidden on his person?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. As I say, we were getting

25 ready to run across, so I can say that quite definitely, that he did not

Page 13664

1 have a weapon.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, as far as is

3 possible, without giving -- don't give the name of your neighbour. So

4 avoid naming your neighbour in future.

5 Mr. Flynn, please continue.


7 Q. And just again for the assistance of the Court, you described in

8 your statement that the weather was just nice that day. Could you perhaps

9 elaborate on it? Would you say it was a sunny day or just a normal day,

10 or could -- perhaps you could elaborate on it a little bit.

11 A. I don't remember whether it was sunny or not, but that it was a

12 nice day, that's certain. I judge that by the way I was dressed. So it

13 was a clear day, if I can put that way. It was May in Mostar, but whether

14 it was sunny or not I can't say, but it was certainly warm.

15 Q. And going back to the question I earlier -- I asked you -- I

16 started to ask you earlier, you mentioned the houses on the hill called

17 Stotina where there were snipers shooting at people. Can you tell us who

18 was occupying those houses? What group of people, organisation, or

19 otherwise?

20 A. The HVO was organised first, at the beginning the war. I claim

21 that, and I claim that Hum or, rather, Stotina, was held by the Croatian

22 Defence Council.

23 Q. Now, again in your statement you said that people warned you about

24 snipers. Did you meet anybody before you crossed the bridge?

25 A. We did know. We had information that that pedestrian bridge was

Page 13665

1 specifically targeted and part of Donja Mahala, I don't know how far your

2 are acquainted with the situation in Donja Mahala, or, rather, the

3 plateau, Stotina is up above.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, your answer leads me to

5 a question that I absolutely have to ask. You said in your written

6 statement, and you just confirmed it, that in -- at Stotina there were

7 snipers. Now, even if you're running, theoretically speaking a good

8 sniper has enough time to hit his target. So what made you cross the

9 bridge and run the risk of being hit by a bullet?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. I was forced to go

11 and fetch medicines for my daughter because she had been wounded by the

12 shrapnel of a shell on the 10th of May, and -- well, you're quite right.

13 It was -- the bridge is rather wide, but to our advantage was the fact

14 that the bridge had concrete pillars somewhere in the middle. So in

15 running across we could take shelter or hide behind these concrete

16 pillars, wait a few seconds and then run to the next pillar and cross the

17 bridge that way, avoiding being hit by the sniper. So there were these

18 concrete pillars at every four or six metres that held up the bridge.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We Judges were in

20 Mostar, and I can't actually say whether I saw the bridge or not, nor that

21 I recall the pillars, but a question comes to mind. Wouldn't it have been

22 wiser to cross the bridge at night? Unless, of course, a sniper had night

23 vision sights. But apart from that, wouldn't it have been wiser to cross

24 the bridge at night rather than in daylight?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps that was my mistake.

Page 13666

1 Perhaps I wasn't thinking straight, or perhaps my neighbour convinced me

2 to go earlier. Perhaps you're right. Maybe it would have been better to

3 go at night. I acknowledge that I made a mistake there. But was that a

4 reason for him to shoot me, hit me? I don't know.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, that's another problem.

6 Proceed.

7 MR. FLYNN: I wonder with the permission of the Court, I haven't

8 included it in the bundle, but this often-used map, if I may put it to the

9 witness, with the assistance of Madam Usher, just to orient ourselves. If

10 you could put it on the ELMO, please.

11 Q. Mr. Vukotic, I'm going to show you a map, and if you take a pen,

12 have a look at the map, and you will see on the map the area Luka and

13 Donja Mahala. If you could just draw with a pen where you think the

14 bridge was.

15 A. It's difficult for me to find my way on this map.

16 Q. Do you see the river?

17 A. Well, I see the river, but to locate the pedestrian bridge which

18 is no longer there, it doesn't exist any more, that's difficult. But

19 roughly, I suppose, it would be somewhere here.

20 Q. Perhaps this might assist?

21 MR. FLYNN: Again with the permission of the Court because I got

22 it this morning and I didn't include it in the bundle. It's a wider

23 picture of the screen shot of the general bank of the river. Again if I

24 could put it on the ...

25 Q. I think your house may have been somewhere over to the left of

Page 13667

1 that photograph. Isn't that right?

2 A. Can you see these two buildings which we call the Sokol

3 buildings? My house is there, between the main road and these two

4 highrises. That's where my house is located, and I assume that over here

5 is where -- well, the bridge isn't there any more so it's difficult for me

6 to find my way.

7 Q. Can you estimate where the bridge might have been using these two

8 large brick buildings or square buildings?

9 A. Well, it's roughly here or here, slightly northward. These might

10 be the pillars, the remaining pillars on the banks of the Neretva. I

11 think those are the pillars, and, yes, that's the playground. If you see

12 these two pillars on the banks of the Neretva, I think they are the

13 remaining pillars.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Place a cross there, please,

15 where the bridge was.

16 MR. FLYNN: [Microphone not activated].

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's right. And your house.

18 Can you indicate where your house was?


20 Q. Approximately.

21 A. It should be somewhere here. Maybe it's here in fact.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mark the bridge with number 1

23 and your house with number 2.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].


Page 13668

1 Q. And lastly, before we leave the photograph, you mentioned these

2 houses on Stotina. Using the river as a reference, could you look at the

3 photograph and could you circle the houses in Stotina where the snipers

4 were sniping from, if it's on the photograph.

5 A. I don't think you can see it. They should be somewhere here.

6 Q. Do you recognise the houses on the bottom right-hand corner?

7 A. No. I seldom go up there, though there are a lot of new buildings

8 that have been constructed there. I really don't know.

9 Q. And can you tell us where the -- in crossing the bridge, if you

10 were to walk across the bridge from Mahala to Luka where Stotina would

11 have been? Would it have been on your left, your right, behind you?

12 A. I think it's here in front of me. I think this is where the

13 plateau is, in this area.

14 Q. Could you put a circle on it, please, for me, and the number 3.

15 A. But there's one thing I'm not clear about. There's a street here

16 that leads to the aluminum company. I can't see it. That's the street.

17 That's the street here. So Stotina is here. I've found my bearings now.

18 This is the street that leads to the aluminum company and Stotina and the

19 plateau should be here.

20 Q. If you could just mark a circle where you imagine it would be or

21 where you think it would be, even if it's off the map.

22 A. I think it's here.

23 Q. 3.

24 A. [Marks]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your initials on the

Page 13669

1 document, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number,

4 Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will become Exhibit number IC

6 371.


8 Q. Now, Mr. Vukotic, do you remember that in 2004 you met an

9 investigator from the ICTY, Mr. Spork, and a photographer from the

10 Tribunal at the location where the shooting took place?

11 A. I remember meeting a certain gentleman. I really can't remember

12 what his name is. I also remember the date, because at the time at his

13 request I obtained a certificate that concerned me having been wounded.

14 That's why I remember the year. But I really can't remember the name of

15 the gentleman. I gave a statement, and he accompanied me to the site of

16 the event, and we reconstructed the event.

17 Q. And he asked you a number of questions. Isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that was event videotaped?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. Your Honours --

22 A. I think it was videotaped.

23 MR. FLYNN: At this stage I wonder if the witness could be

24 shown -- with the assistance of the case manager, if the witness could be

25 shown video P 01490 on Sanction.

Page 13670

1 The sound isn't great on the video so the transcript is attached

2 to the bundle of documents and it's transcript number 1. We're ready to

3 start the video if you're in Sanction, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Go ahead.

5 MR. FLYNN: Ms. Winner says it doesn't seem to be working.

6 [Videotape played].

7 "Investigator: Mr. Vukotic, could you please indicate the

8 location of the former bridge that you were crossing on the day that you

9 were shot?"

10 MR. FLYNN: Are Your Honours getting a picture?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have a picture.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It seems that we

13 have technical problem.

14 MR. FLYNN: It does, Your Honours. What I'll do is I'll move on

15 for the moment and I'll come back to it. Perhaps we can rectify it.

16 Q. Apart from the video, Mr. Vukotic, do you remember that the -- can

17 you tell us whether the photographer took a number of photographs, still

18 photographs, at the same time when you met?

19 A. I'm sorry, but I didn't quite hear you question clearly.

20 Q. My question was: Apart from making the video, do you remember

21 if the photographer took a number of still photographs while you were

22 there?

23 A. I really can't remember.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: He can just show him the photographs. We'll

25 concede the fact that the photographs were made.

Page 13671

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Karnavas always has

2 excellent ideas.

3 Mr. Flynn, show him the photographs.

4 MR. FLYNN: Perhaps we can show him the photographs on 09139,

5 exhibit 09139, the 360-degree photograph.

6 Q. Sir, you remember we did this yesterday. Do you see -- do you see

7 a photograph in front of you on your screen?

8 A. I can see myself at this point in time.

9 MR. FLYNN: It seems we have another problem, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, if we have a hard

11 copy it would be best to put it on the ELMO.

12 MR. FLYNN: Yes.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Here it is. It's working now.


15 Q. Do you have a photograph in front of you, Mr. --

16 MR. FLYNN: It's gone again, Your Honours. Now we see it; now we

17 don't.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The photograph is fixed,

19 apparently.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on my screen. Well, yes, now.

21 MR. FLYNN: Do you --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He has the photograph.


24 Q. Do you remember when we looked at these yesterday, Mr. Vukotic, a

25 melange of 360-degree photographs? Could you do the same now, and at the

Page 13672

1 conclusion I'd like you to tell us if you can the direction in which you

2 believe the shot came from, and also the position of the police post that

3 you mention in your statement.

4 If you want to, just say stop.

5 A. Stop here. I'd just like to point something out. I think -- or,

6 rather, it's more that I'm persuaded of the fact. I think that this was

7 subsequently built and this wall wasn't here before.

8 Q. Okay. And if we continue on to the right. Did you say stop?

9 A. No, no. Let's continue.

10 Stop. This is the beginning of the street or, rather, this is the

11 corner, the angle of the wall where I stopped for a minute to have a rest.

12 I leaned against the wall at the beginning of this small street.

13 Q. Can you tell us in which direction you were facing?

14 A. With my back to the south or, rather, to Stotina and the bridge,

15 and my face -- or, rather, I was facing this small street.

16 Q. If we could just continue to the right, and tell me if you see

17 where your back was fasting.

18 A. Just a minute. I'll repeat what I said. I was leaning against

19 the edge of this wall. The greenery here wasn't there before. This is an

20 abandoned area. That's where I was. I don't know if there's anything

21 else I should add.

22 MR. FLYNN: Perhaps we'll go into Sanction, Your Honours because

23 it will make a lot more sense if we watch the video and then watch the

24 360.

25 Q. So I'm going to go back to the video and counter of the meeting

Page 13673

1 you had with the investigators, and if you could watch this carefully for

2 me.

3 [Videotape played]

4 "Investigator: Mr. Vukotic could you please indicate the former

5 bridge that you were crossing on the day that you were shot?

6 "Witness: [Indicates]

7 "Investigator: Mr. Vukotic, could you please indicate to the best

8 of your recollection where you were standing when you were shot?

9 "Witness: [Indicates]

10 "Investigator: Mr. Vukotic, could you please indicate where the

11 police was hiding behind?

12 "Witness: [Indicates]

13 "Investigator: Mr. Vukotic, to the best of your recollection

14 could you please indicate the position you were in when you were shot?

15 "Witness: [Indicates]

16 "Investigator: Could you please indicate where the bullet hitter

17 body?

18 "Witness: [Indicates]

19 "Investigator: Mr. Vukotic, was the pole situated on the location

20 of the [inaudible] at the time when you were shot?

21 "Witness: [Interpretation] No.

22 "Investigator: Thank you very much. I will mark a yellow X on

23 the spot where the witness was standing when he was hit."


25 Q. Do you recognise yourself in the video?

Page 13674

1 A. Yes. I was a little younger then.

2 Q. And on the video when you were asked about where the bullet hit

3 you, you showed your right leg, and you were pointing to your right leg,

4 somewhere around the knee, and you pointed to the front of your leg just

5 above the nowhere the bullet came out; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. And you were leaning over slightly as you were talking, according

8 to the video -- from your recollection on the video, you were leaning over

9 as you were talking to the police; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. I was leaning against the wall.

11 Q. Did you hear any shot accompanying the bullet that struck you?

12 A. I don't think I heard the shot. And even if I had heard it, well,

13 I don't know. Other shots were fired earlier on. Other -- later on even

14 if this shot had been intended to for me, I doubt that I would have had

15 time to take shelter.

16 Q. And if we take the angle at which you were standing at when you

17 were shot, if you were to turn around 180 degrees, can you tell us the

18 direction which you would have been facing?

19 A. Well, I'd be facing Stotina. I don't know if that's your

20 question.

21 Q. That's exactly my question. And was there anything -- did --

22 could you have a clear view of Stotina, and was there anything to your

23 knowledge blocking the view Stotina would have of you?

24 A. To be quite frank, I quite naively thought that they were only

25 monitoring the pedestrian bridge. If I had got a foot into the street I

Page 13675

1 would have been safe, but I was naive. So it's my fault as far as that is

2 concerned. I thought snipers were monitoring the bridge.

3 Q. When we were looking at the 360 photographs a few moments ago, you

4 made reference to this view, and I'd like to present it to you to be put

5 on the ELMO if it's possible. It's an excerpt from 09139, Exhibit 09139.

6 This pole, did this pole exist there? Was it there at the time

7 you were shot?

8 A. No. Had the pole been there, I would have been sheltered. The

9 pole wasn't there. This was an open space. This pole was subsequently

10 placed there. Unfortunately, people used all the timber they could find

11 for heating, so they would cut such things down. But I don't think the

12 pole was there at the time. It was subsequently placed there.

13 Q. And the greenery we see to the left of the pole, did that

14 exist?

15 A. Similarly, as what I have said, this has grown there because it

16 hasn't been used for years. You can't even see the Neretva River because

17 of all the greenery.

18 Q. Again when we were looking at the 360 photos, we saw an alleyway

19 and I believe this was the alleyway you were about to turn into and there

20 was a police post. Can I hand you another screen shot, which is a screen

21 shot of the alleyway, and tell me, is there anywhere on this photograph

22 that the police post was constructed, or was it off the photograph? Where

23 do you remember the post being?

24 A. I'm telling you that this building opposite the spot at which I

25 was standing was subsequently built. The container [as interpreted] was

Page 13676

1 here more or less and the police were in -- somewhere in the street. I

2 don't even think the steps were there at the time.

3 Q. Could you mark, please, where you think the police post was?

4 Could you put an X.

5 A. Somewhere here more or less where you can see the new wall.

6 Q. And were the policemen standing out in the open to be seen, and

7 could they be seen from the Stotina direction?

8 A. No, certainly not. They couldn't have noticed anything because of

9 this wall that's here.

10 Q. And the last question, Mr. Vukotic, base on your own knowledge of

11 events at the time and what you yourself could observe and what you were

12 told by other people about the presence of snipers --

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object to the form of the question.

14 I'm not interested in what he was told. What his knowledge is, fine.

15 What he observed, fine. But what he was told later is hearsay and is

16 unhelpful in trying to determine from which direction this gentleman was

17 shot.

18 MR. FLYNN: I'm actually referring to what he was told before he

19 crossed the bridge.

20 Q. Can you tell the Judges where you believe the shot came from?

21 That is, the location of where the shot came from. Bearing in mind all of

22 those elements.

23 A. My claim is that the shot could have only come from Stotina.

24 Q. Was there any -- was there shooting on that day from any other

25 part of the other side of the bank of the river?

Page 13677

1 A. No shots could have come from the other side of the river because

2 the right bank was under the control of the ABiH and Stotina was under HVO

3 control. So the shot could have only come from Stotina and from nowhere

4 else.

5 Q. I said the last question. This is truly the last question. I

6 think yesterday you gave to us a number of medical reports that you

7 obtained from the medical authorities in Mostar which make reference to

8 your injury, isn't that correct? Sustained on this day.

9 A. Yes. I have those documents.

10 Q. And I think those medical reports make reference to a bone -- a

11 bone injury to your right leg in addition to a flesh wound. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Very briefly, when I was wounded, I was taken to an institute

14 which was the only one that functioned as a military hospital on the left

15 bank, but then they were unable to determine bone fracture because they

16 didn't have the appropriate X-ray device. So they just used an ordinary

17 bandage to bandage my leg. And two days later I asked them to discharge

18 me because the bandage was of no help to me. I said someone could do that

19 at home. An ordinary nurse could bandage my leg. And the hospital was

20 full of the wounded, and I thought it was useless for me to take up a bed.

21 So I asked them to send me back home two days later. And then at night I

22 was returned there. We acted a little more intelligently then.

23 Q. Did you subsequently learn that you had sustained more than just a

24 flesh wound to your leg?

25 A. Later, several months later, after a few check-ups, I don't know

Page 13678

1 the right medical terms but I had a complication on that part of my knee.

2 So on two or three occasions I went to the hygiene institute to have it

3 treated. And then they obtained the X-ray device, and they discovered

4 that the bone had been fractured but it healed as it healed. But my leg

5 is worse and worse every day. It's shorter, about two centimetres shorter

6 than it was, and all because the appropriate treatment wasn't provided.

7 And the conditions were such that it wasn't possible to provide such

8 treatment.

9 Q. Thank you very much. I don't have any further questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a question I'd like

11 to put to you. We'll check this, because we have all the documents on

12 admission to the institute of hygiene, so we can see whether you were on

13 the list, but your knee was hit by a bullet according to what you have

14 said. Your bone was fractured. Did the bullet pass through your knee or

15 was the bullet extracted from you at the institute of hygiene?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an entry and exit wound.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the bullet didn't remain in

18 your leg. It probably ended up in the wall, on the ground. It passed

19 through you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea. I couldn't know

21 about this at the time, but it's quite certain that the wound was an entry

22 and -- that it was an entry and exit wound. That's all they determined.

23 The bullet wasn't found.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you'd been provided with

25 the treatment, when your wound had been disinfected, when the leg had been

Page 13679

1 bandaged, the entry wound was large and the exit wound was small or was

2 the reverse the case? As far as you can remember, what was the case?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't remember. I wasn't

4 able to observe the state of my leg. I paid no attention to it. I didn't

5 know anything about these details.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But usually when one

7 is hit in the leg one pays attention, but you say you don't remember. Did

8 you lose a lot of blood or not much blood? Were there stains on your

9 trousers or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The trouser had been stained but not

11 soaked. It hurt a lot. It hurt a lot when I tried to reach shelter in

12 the street. I saw the blood. I didn't have the strength to look. I fell

13 down, and my neighbour who was there -- there was a vehicle on duty

14 because of such cases, because of that sniper on the bridge, so I was

15 fortunate because I was immediately transported the to the institute of

16 hygiene. There was this vehicle on standby. But as to how much blood

17 there was, well, there was blood.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Line 6, page 113 says there was

19 a vehicle on standby. I thought there were lawyers on standby but now

20 there are vehicles on standby.

21 So now you're telling us there was a vehicle permanently at the

22 site in order to assist the wounded. Is that what you're telling us?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that I was fortunate

24 because at that point in time there was a vehicle that was ready for such

25 cases at Titova Street. I was fortunate because at that point in time the

Page 13680

1 vehicle was there and I was immediately transported to the institute of

2 hygiene. As to whether it was there all the time or whether it changed

3 the location, I don't know. But when I was wounded they immediately put

4 me into the vehicle and took me to the institute.

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I have two brief questions

6 that I would like to put to you very briefly. You spoke about a police

7 post which was near the spot where you were wounded, and on the day that

8 you were wounded there were many other shots. There had been many other

9 shots prior to your wounding. Were there any shots that were fired from

10 the police post in the other direction? Was there an exchange of fire, in

11 other words? That's my first question.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Answer the first question first,

13 please. Did the police at the police post own fire on Stotina?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, those policemen, I know that

15 from before and later on, those policemen were put there on the right bank

16 of the Neretva. There were two civilians. And where I crossed there were

17 two policemen. Whether they were the classical type of policemen or not I

18 don't know, but they were wearing uniforms. That I do know. And they had

19 the task of providing security for the bridge or, rather, to control and

20 take the -- look at the identity cards of people crossing the bridge,

21 because it was in fashion -- it was fashionable at the time to blow up

22 bridges. So they were the ones that checked the ID cards of people who

23 they did not know approaching the bridge.

24 Now, whether they shot later on or not, I don't know. Their task

25 was just to control the access to the bridge to unknown persons.

Page 13681

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, my second

2 question, second to last question, is this: In the hospital there were a

3 lot of wounded people. Were there as many civilians as military men or

4 were they mostly civilians? What would you say?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I really can't answer that. I

6 can't claim either way. I didn't follow those things, but I think that

7 there were more civilians. I would say that there were more civilians.

8 My neighbours -- I don't know whether you're acquainted with Mostar, where

9 Mahala is and the northern districts. There were people older than me who

10 were wounded by shrapnel from shells, and I would say there were actually

11 more civilians at that time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we'll see that on the

13 basis of the records we have. Another question from the Bench?

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I will wait for tomorrow.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My colleague prefers asking his

17 question tomorrow.

18 Mr. Praljak.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good evening, Witness.

20 For us to be able to be ready tomorrow and not ask superfluous

21 questions, it is important for us to know the direction -- or, rather, how

22 the -- the direction of the entry/exit wound, where the bullet entered and

23 where it exited, because without that we can't establish anything. So the

24 possible direction in respect of the river and so on.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a few seconds. We see your

Page 13682

1 leg and your knee. Now, the bullet, did it enter on the right-hand side

2 or the left-hand side of your leg, and where did it exit?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'd prefer it if some

4 professional were to look at this. I can't see to the back of my leg to

5 see the exit wound. You can see the entry wound very easily.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have the impression that

7 you're not asking my -- answering my question frankly. It's a simple

8 question. You were wounded. You said there was an entry wound and an

9 exit wound. So my question is very clear. Where was the entry wound?

10 Was it to the right or to the left of your knee? For an economist, I'm

11 sure you understand the question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand the question, but let

13 me repeat that at this point in time, well, I didn't give it much thought.

14 I don't remember, nor did I look at the wound in recent years.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It wasn't then. I'm not asking

16 you about then. I'm asking you about now, today. You must know where the

17 bullet entered, unless your knee is in perfect condition without any more

18 traces of the wounding. And then you can say no, you don't know. But you

19 said that you -- your leg was two centimetres shorter, and yet you're

20 unable to tell us where the bullet entered your leg. It's important for

21 us to know the position, because on the basis of the position of the wound

22 we can establish the direction the shot came from.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. I'm sorry. I

24 really can't answer that. I can show you. I can show you the exit wound,

25 but I really can't show you the entry wound. I feel very uncomfortable

Page 13683

1 now, but I really can't.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Take a look at your

3 knee between now and tomorrow morning and perhaps you can tell us tomorrow

4 whether it was on the left or on the right.

5 Mr. Flynn, do I take it that you have completed your

6 examination-in-chief?

7 MR. FLYNN: Yes. I omitted to just -- to ask you formally -- or

8 to mention formally that I would be tendering the statement that I had

9 summarised earlier in evidence. But apart from that, I have no further

10 questions at this point in time.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we reconvene

12 tomorrow morning. My colleague the Judge will be asking you a question,

13 and if you can tell us where the entry wound was that will be useful. If

14 not, well, do the best we can.

15 It is 10 minutes past 7.00. I apologise for the delay and for

16 keeping you all longer. We had to do that, but we reconvene tomorrow at

17 2.15.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day

20 of February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.