Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13890

1 Monday, 12 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [B/C/S on English channel]

6 THE REGISTRAR: This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor

7 versus Prlic et al.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, on this Monday, the

9 12th of February, 2007, we're continuing our proceedings and we're going

10 to have three witnesses which are scheduled for the week. I'd like to

11 welcome all those in the courtroom, the Prosecution, the ladies and

12 gentlemen of the Defence counsel, and the accused.

13 There seems to be a problem. Mr. Praljak doesn't seem to be

14 hearing.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] We're not receiving

16 interpretation, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently the accused aren't

18 receiving the interpretation. Yes they are. Everything is all right now.

19 Things are working. Good.

20 Now, the interpreters with asked for the following: They say that

21 they are having great difficulty following us and that this makes it

22 difficult for them to translate when it is very fast. So I would like to

23 ask one and all to speak more slowly so that our interpreters can follow

24 and do their job. That's what I wanted to say.

25 Having done that, I'm going to give the floor to Madam Registrar

Page 13891

1 for two IC numbers.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, two documents have been submitted.

3 There's a list by 5D to be tendered through Witness Patrick Van Der

4 Weijden. That will be given number IC 387. And a list by OTP which is an

5 objection to documents tendered by 5D through Witness -- sorry, by 3D

6 through Witness Enes Vukotic, and that one will be given IC 388. Thank

7 you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Last week we had to

9 adjourn very quickly because of the problems related to the snow. As you

10 know, our expert witness will be back in due course for the

11 cross-examination. I think he'll be back fairly quickly, which will allow

12 us to go ahead with everything in our heads. We'll remember what was

13 going on.

14 Now, as far as the witnesses that are going to address the

15 question of sniping are concerned, today we have three scheduled, and

16 having studied the timetable, the Prosecution has asked for 30 minutes for

17 the next one. I hope they'll be able to get through it even quicker. And

18 as we see that the same questions are being asked again and again,

19 cropping up again, we feel that 45 minutes will be sufficient for the

20 Defence teams to conduct their cross-examination.

21 So I would like to appeal to the Prosecution to try and get

22 through the summary in 20 minutes, or 20 minutes per each witness, to

23 allow 45 minutes to the Defence teams, which means double the time to

24 cross-examine.

25 Having said that, may we have the first witness shown into the

Page 13892

1 courtroom. Mr. Usher, would you go and fetch the witness.

2 Good afternoon, Mr. Bos. I see that we have six documents for the

3 next witness, Dzemal Barakovic.

4 MR. BOS: Good afternoon, Your Honours; good afternoon everyone in

5 the courtroom. Yes, Your Honours, there's six items on the exhibit list

6 but, you know, those items include the 360 photograph and the video, and,

7 in fact, as far as documents are concerned, I think I will only have two

8 documents to show to the witness.

9 [The witness enters court]


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'd like

13 to check that you can hear the interpretation of what I'm saying. If you

14 understand tell me.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, we're going to have you

17 take the solemn declaration, so would you please stand. But before that

18 could you tell me your first name, last name, and date of birth.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dzemal Barakovic, the 7th of

20 February, 1949.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

22 occupation?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm -- I do have one.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which one, sir?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a professional fireman in the

Page 13893

1 fire unit.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would you now go

3 ahead and read the solemn declaration that the usher's going to hand to

4 you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You may be

8 seated.

9 Just some preliminary information from me. You're going to be

10 answering questions put to you by the Prosecution first. You've already

11 met the Prosecutor either yesterday or this morning, and that is the first

12 stage. After that, the Defence counsel and the accused have 45 minutes to

13 ask you their questions within the cross-examination, and possibly the

14 four Judges sitting up at the Bench might ask you questions as well. If

15 you have any problems, don't hesitate to let me know, especially if you

16 have health problems. So don't hesitate to tell me straight away.

17 Having said that, I give the floor to the Prosecution.

18 MR. BOS: Thank you again, Your Honour.

19 Examination by Mr. Bos:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Barakovic.

21 A. Good afternoon.

22 Q. Mr. Barakovic I'm first of all going to give a small summary of

23 your statement and I'll read that out. The witness was a resident of West

24 Mostar. On 30 June, 1993, he was arrested and imprisoned in Heliodrom.

25 On 24 July, 1993, he was released and went back to his home. Around 17

Page 13894

1 August, 1993, he and his family were expelled to East Mostar by HVO

2 soldiers. The witness joined the East Mostar fire brigade as a driver.

3 He saw the victim Enver Dziho after he had been shot by a sniper. The

4 witness was also present when Stojan Kacic was carrying Enver Dziho on a

5 stretcher. Was shot by a sniper.

6 That concludes my summary.

7 Witness, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions first about a

8 statement. Is it correct that you made a written statement to the

9 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 31st of August,

10 2001?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at the time you provided this written statement, did you

13 answer the questions to the investigator truthfully?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did you answer the questions freely, that is without any

16 coercion?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at the conclusion of that interview, sir, was the statement

19 read back to you in the Bosnian language?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you then sign the statement in the English language?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. BOS: If I could ask the usher now to provide the witness with

24 the bundle of exhibits for Mr. Barakovic.

25 Q. Mr. Barakovic, I would like to ask you to turn to Exhibit number

Page 13895

1 9855 in this bundle, which is the first document in this bundle. And this

2 would be an English version of your statement. And what I would like to

3 ask you is whether you could confirm that the signature on the bottom of

4 each page is, in fact, your signature.

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Now, do you recall that we met this morning, Witness Barakovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And at that meeting, did I ask you whether you wanted to correct

9 anything to your statement?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you have any corrections to make to your statement?

12 A. No.

13 MR. BOS: So at this stage I would like to tender the statement of

14 Mr. Barakovic into evidence as Exhibit 9858.

15 Q. Witness, is it correct that in 2004, in the summer of 2004, you

16 met with an investigator and a photographer of the ICTY in Mostar?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is it true that at that time you were asked a series of

19 questions relating to the sniping incident that is discussed in your

20 statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were these questions and answers actually videotaped? Do you

23 recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. BOS: At this time, Your Honours, I'm going to show a video

Page 13896

1 clip, and I would like to forewarn everyone here in the courtroom, the

2 video clip, there's a sound problem in the video clip. The first part is

3 okay, but the second part of the video clip does not have any sound.

4 Nevertheless, I would like to show the whole video. And I suggest first

5 to play the whole tape and then to play the tape again and then that

6 second time I will stop the tape for a few moments and ask the witness a

7 few questions. But if we can now play Exhibit 9140 clip of incident

8 number 11.

9 [Videotape played]

10 "Investigator: Mr. Barakovic, to the best of your recollection,

11 could you please indicate where you saw the body of Enver Dziho lying.

12 Lying."

13 "Witness: [Indicates]

14 "Investigator: Thank you. To the best of your recollection could

15 you please walk the path that two paramedics followed carrying the body of

16 Enver Dziho on a stretcher, and could you stop at the spot where the

17 paramedic, Stojan Kacic, was shot?

18 "Witness: [Witness complies]"

19 MR. BOS:

20 Q. Let me ask you a couple of general questions and then we'll play

21 the tape again and I'll ask you a few more specific questions. Let me

22 first ask you, did you recognise yourself on this videotape?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you understand the instructions that were given to you,

25 that were put to you by the investigator on that day?

Page 13897

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just one thing. In one of the questions put to you by the

3 investigator, the investigator was referring to Mr. Stojan -- Mr. Stojan

4 Kacic as a paramedic. Was this Stojan Kacic actually a paramedic or

5 not?

6 A. I don't think he was a paramedic.

7 MR. BOS: Now, I would again ask the videotape to be played, and I

8 will stop at a -- on --

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. BOS: Stop here. Stop here, please.

11 Q. Now, Witness, where we stopped, you've been asked the question

12 where you saw Enver Dziho lying in 1993, and you point with your arm. But

13 can you explain to the Court where you are actually pointing to, because

14 we see a fence here in front of the photograph. Is this -- is it actually

15 in front of the fence where Enver Dziho was lying or somewhere else?

16 A. The exit in front of the department store there's a road and

17 there's a small building which was used as a woodshed and then steps

18 leading to in front of the house, to in front of this shed. There was a

19 garage up there too. That's where I found Enver Dziho lying down, and

20 Ibro Spago, who went to help him.

21 Q. And this wooden fence that we see here on the picture, did that

22 exist in 1993?

23 A. No, because the Serb who owned the house, it was a Serb house, he

24 returned and then put this fence up around his house and around his garden

25 with this kind of wooden fence.

Page 13898

1 Q. And, Mr. Barakovic, do you recall why we actually -- why the

2 videotape wasn't taken at the stop where Enver Dziho was actually lying

3 but over here? Do you recall why the video was taken here?

4 A. Because we weren't able to enter because it was fenced up. So we

5 didn't have access. And as it's private property, we weren't able to

6 enter.

7 Q. Witness, did I ask you this morning to make a drawing of what --

8 what's behind, in fact, the wooden fence and where you actually saw the

9 body of Enver Dziho? Did I ask you to make a drawing this morning?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. BOS: I'd like to show the following drawing that was made by

12 the witness this morning.

13 Q. And, Witness, maybe -- maybe could you -- could you explain what

14 you've been drawing here? Let's first just ask so that everyone knows

15 where we are on the photograph. Where did you draw the fence that we've

16 just seen on the video? And you will have to point at the photograph on

17 the overhead so that everyone can see.

18 A. That's it. That's where we filmed and where we were talking.

19 Q. Who have you indicated under number 3?

20 A. I was there when I made the statement.

21 Q. Okay. So number 3 is your position when -- when you were there

22 when the videotape was being recorded.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, can you then explain maybe -- what's under number 1 and

25 number 2?

Page 13899

1 A. Number 1 is Ibro Spago, who came to help Dziho, who was wounded.

2 He's number 1. And number 2 is Dziho, who was wounded. He was lying

3 down. Or both of them were actually lying down, because the sniper shot

4 while they were there.

5 Q. So you're talking about two persons who got one -- who got

6 wounded, and you saw that they were lying there. Could you just again

7 clarify the record. Who was number 1 and who was number 2? Could you

8 give the full names of both persons.

9 A. Do you want me to show you?

10 Q. No, just --

11 A. Number 1 --

12 Q. Just give me the name of who was number 1.

13 A. Number 1 was Ibro Spago. He came to help Enver Dziho. Enver

14 Dziho is number 2. He was the person who was wounded, and that's the spot

15 where he was lying, number 2.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps with your

17 permission I might be allowed to say that in view of this -- the fact that

18 the sketch was drawn by the witness and when we look at the findings on

19 page 31 with incident 11 with the expert witness, it's difficult to find

20 one's way. So perhaps if the witness could be asked about incident 11 in

21 the expert report and compare that to the witness's sketch to show us

22 where the bullet came from, because I'm not sure things can be understood

23 this way and we'll just lose time in the cross-examination.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Mr. Kovacic.

25 Mr. Bos, Mr. Kovacic has explained it all. What we're interested

Page 13900

1 in is where the shot came from the witness. So perhaps you can ask the

2 witness if he can make his contribution to clarifying that.

3 MR. BOS: Your Honour, as far as what the witness actually saw a

4 person being shot, that's not Enver Dziho. The witness saw the body of

5 Enver Dziho, but he didn't see Enver Dziho being shot. The person he

6 was -- he did being shot was the person who was -- who has not been

7 indicated here on this drawing. This is -- this is the place from where

8 Enver Dziho's body was being carried to the next place where actually the

9 witness saw somebody being shot, Mr. Stojan. So it's -- I don't really

10 see the need. I don't see the objection that Mr. Kovacic is making. And

11 what I -- what I would like the witness to do is maybe indicate on the

12 drawing how the body of Enver Dziho was being carried and in which

13 direction the body of Enver Dziho was being carried, and that's the

14 purpose of this drawing.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, just a moment.

16 Mr. Kovacic.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we're going to

18 have a problem because, according to the proofing chart provided to us by

19 the Prosecutor, with all the incidents and the witnesses per incident,

20 under incident 11, it says the Enver Dziho case and that's the one we're

21 dealing with. So if the witness didn't see the victim fall casualty, then

22 I don't think it's going to be much help to us. And now suddenly there's

23 another incident that wasn't dealt with in the findings. The incident

24 that was dealt with was Enver Dziho. So we all seem to be under a

25 miscomprehension.

Page 13901

1 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours. The incident that is concerned here

2 is the incident of Mr. Stojan Kacic who has been shot and not -- as far as

3 this witness is concerned, he can effective about where Mr. Stojan Kacic

4 has been shot and not where Enver Dziho was.

5 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, the Petkovic Defence understood

6 it was both. So can we be crystal clear. According to the documentation

7 we had, it was both those victims that were included in this incident, and

8 both are referred to in the expert witness's summary. So all I want to be

9 is very clear.

10 MR. BOS: Well, both persons were victims of a sniping shot but

11 both the expert and this witness are only testifying about how Mr. Stojan

12 Kacic was shot and from which direction.

13 MR. STEWART: Thank you. That's most helpful.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that's the correct

15 information. From the first sentence of the expert witness with incident

16 11 it says that he was a middle aged man, that the victim was a middle

17 aged man crossing the street next to the Razvitak building, and then the

18 next sentence was a description, to my mind, because there was no medical

19 documentation, and it says that one of the people administering first

20 aid - and now we seed see that he wasn't a paramedic either - was hit in

21 the leg while attempting to assist victim B. And in this description,

22 Enver Dziho is mentioned as a victim and Mr. Stojan Kacic is mentioned

23 just by the by. So I'm not quite clear on that. What victim did the

24 expert witness deal with when he wrote his report and description of

25 incident 11? That's not clear.

Page 13902

1 MR. BOS: And that's what I've been saying. It's Mr. Stojan

2 Kacic, and in the expert report, that is victim Q.

3 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I was taking it that when the

4 Prosecution tell us, as Mr. Bos did a few minutes ago, unequivocally that

5 it is only dealing with that one victim and that the expert is only

6 dealing with that one victim, then whatever was in the expert report

7 initially, that is the position for the rest of the case. And if I'm

8 crystal clear about that, then I do understand Mr. Kovacic's difficulty,

9 given that that's not what was said in the report. But if that's where we

10 are now, there's this just this one victim and there's no doubt about

11 that, then Defence won't be mislead and that's where we are.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bos, I have the expert

13 report before me, and I'm -- I'm looking at incident 11 where it says on

14 the 30th of October, 1993, victim P was shot while crossing a road near

15 the Razvitak building, and then the expert adds: "One of the ambulance

16 personnel," whether it was driver or a paramedic isn't clear, "victim Q

17 was shot in the leg while trying to move victim P on a stretcher to the

18 ambulance."

19 So one could understand it that victim Q is the number 1 on the

20 sketch, on the witness sketch, and the number 2 is victim P. One could

21 take it that way.

22 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour, that is not -- that is not -- let me

23 try to explain again.

24 Mr. Enver Dziho, which is victim P in the expert report, and let

25 me first explain what's written here in the expert report is the

Page 13903

1 information that we provided to the expert, that sentence you just read

2 out.

3 Now, victim P, which is Enver Dziho, is the person who got wounded

4 and which is under number 1 on the sketch -- or number 2 on the sketch.

5 Then Mr. Stojan Kacic put Mr. Enver Dziho on a stretcher and moved

6 Mr. Enver Dziho towards the ambulance, moved him up to the mountain

7 towards -- up the mountain towards the ambulance. And while moving

8 Mr. Enver Dziho on a stretcher, Mr. Stojan Kacic gets hit by a bullet, and

9 it's in fact this particular incident that was seen by this witness, and

10 that's the incident we're talking about here.

11 So the sketch what -- what is drawn here, it stops at the fence

12 but, as you can see on the video, from the fence onwards it again moves

13 up. So this sketch should not be confused with what we later see on the

14 video.

15 I hope I've made myself clear now.

16 MR. STEWART: I think some of the confusion, Your Honour. It's

17 certainly quite clear from the sketch on the expert report that he's

18 talking about victim Q. He says that on -- Lieutenant Van Der Weijden

19 says that. Possibly some of the confusion stems from the practical

20 schedule that the Prosecution gave a few weeks ago, but I think maybe the

21 wrong victim got in front of me, maybe the wrong victims on that

22 schedule. But if Your Honours treat that schedule, which we had a couple

23 of weeks ago, with a bit of caution, because time's moved on, then the

24 position seems to be clear now.

25 MR. BOS: May I continue?

Page 13904

1 Q. Witness, could you just -- could I just ask you to make a line

2 from where Mr. Enver Dziho was put on a stretcher and the trajectory which

3 was then followed towards the place where you actually saw Mr. Stojan

4 Kacic being shot at.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And maybe you can mark with an X where you actually saw

7 Mr. Stojan -- Mr. Stojan Kacic being -- being shot.

8 A. Here there's a concrete wall behind the house, and here behind the

9 wall, this is where I was, and this is where I took shelter, and then I

10 followed their way until they got to the very top of the staircase. Ibro

11 was the first on the stretcher, and then I could hear a shot. Stojan

12 Kacic grabbed his foot and then came down the stairs close to me to seek

13 shelter as well.

14 Q. Could you maybe put on this drawing the stair -- staircase where

15 Mr. Stojan Kacic was being shot. Could you draw that on this sketch as

16 well.

17 A. This is a street. This is the top of the staircase, and Ibro was

18 almost at the top of the staircase. Kacic was below him by the full

19 length of the stretcher. That's how further down he was. This is

20 approximately the place where he was.

21 Q. If we could now then play the -- continue the video again, and

22 I'll ask again the video to be stopped and then I'll ask you a few more

23 questions.

24 Yes. Maybe, Witness, would you mind putting your initials on the

25 bottom of this sketch.

Page 13905

1 MR. BOS: And if I could get an IC number for this sketch,

2 Your Honour.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this will be IC

4 389.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My initials.

6 MR. BOS: Okay. If we could now continue the video, please.

7 [Videotape played]

8 "Investigator: Thank you. To the best of your recollection,

9 could you please walk the path that two paramedics followed carrying the

10 body of Enver Dziho on a stretcher, and could you stop at the spot where

11 the paramedic Stojan Kacic was shot.

12 "Witness: [Witness complies]"

13 MR. BOS: If we could stop the video over here.

14 Q. Now, Witness, we just saw the whole video and there was no sound.

15 Do you recall what questions you were asked while standing over here?

16 A. I was asked to say where Kacic was standing and where he was

17 hit.

18 Q. And what did you answer to the question where he was hit?

19 A. I was standing at the place where Mr. Kacic had been standing

20 before me, and I pointed with my hand. I can't remember which leg it

21 was. I believe it was his right leg which had been hit, and he could not

22 walk on that leg. That's when he started descending to the place where I

23 was.

24 Q. Did the investigator also ask you to point the exact location

25 where Mr. Kacic was actually hit, in the video. So not on the body but

Page 13906

1 the location on the stairs. Did the investigator ask you that? And is it

2 correct that the investigator then made a yellow cross on that particular

3 location?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. BOS: That's it for the video, Your Honours. I would now like

6 to show the witness the 360 photograph.

7 Q. Now, Witness, before you, you see a photograph, and again, this is

8 a photograph that you were also shown. Is it correct that you were shown

9 this photograph this morning as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And is it correct that we went through the whole photograph, which

12 makes a 360-degree turn, and that I asked you to stop on the position

13 where you think that the shot came from that hit Mr. Kacic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What we'll do now is we'll again make a turn, and I will again ask

16 you to say "stop" when we get to the position where you think Mr. Kacic

17 was hit.

18 A. Stop.

19 Q. Witness, we made a video still of this particular position where I

20 would like you now to look at, and we'll put that on the overhead

21 projector. And could I ask you to mark on this photograph where you think

22 the shot was fired from?

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Maybe you can use the marker and put a circle around this.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 13907

1 Q. Now, you've marked a circle around a tall buildings. Do you know

2 the name of this building?

3 A. I believe that this is the Privredna Banka building, a building

4 that had not been finished by that time. It is otherwise known as

5 the "glass bank" because it's made of glass. It's a glass

6 construction.

7 Q. And what makes you think that the shot came from this particular

8 building?

9 A. Because it is high up above other buildings, and there's a clear

10 view from it. There's a line of vision, a clear line of vision from that

11 building. And very good protection for anybody who shoots from there.

12 Q. Now, I have a few more questions about this photograph. Right

13 underneath your marking we see an orange coloured roof of a house. Is

14 this house already there in 1993?

15 A. The -- the upper floor was not there. It was just a ground floor

16 of a very old house, and I suppose that the owner in the meantime has been

17 given a donation of money to finish the house. So the upper floor was not

18 there.

19 Q. And then on the right-hand side of the photograph, we see a grey

20 concrete wall. Was this particular wall, was this already there in

21 1993?

22 A. It wasn't there. The building is my neighbour's workshop. He is

23 an entrepreneur, and he has built a workshop and a storage to keep his

24 tools and things in there.

25 Q. If you could again put your initials on this photograph.

Page 13908

1 MR. BOS: And if I could get an IC number for this particular

2 photograph, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC 390.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the registrar.

6 MR. BOS:

7 Q. Now, Witness, there's one thing in your statement I want to ask

8 you a couple of questions about, and I want to briefly show you a few

9 more documents and then I'll be done. On page 3 of your statement, you

10 say that it was also common for sniper to shoot at people up the street

11 which was exposed to the glass bank building. My question in relation to

12 this testimony is, how did the presence of snipers affect you and the

13 other people in East Mostar in your daily life in 1993? Can you tell us

14 that?

15 A. In my view, sharpshooters were more dangerous than shells

16 themselves, because a shooter could see you, could see your body, could

17 see your face. A shell may fall anywhere, with a target or without a

18 target, whereas a sharpshooter shoots with intention. He sees the body.

19 He sees a face, and he shoots creating panic. And in my view, snipers

20 were much more dangerous than shells.

21 Q. But how did the --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor.

23 MR. BOS:

24 Q. My question is: How did the snipers affect the daily life of the

25 persons living in East Mostar? How did it affect you personally when you

Page 13909

1 would go on the streets or in your daily life in Mostar in 1993?

2 A. Those who had to go somewhere risked their lives if they did so in

3 daytime. Most of our life and activities took place during the night.

4 That's when things were taking place. And it had a psychological impact

5 on us. We were afraid, and we lived with the feeling that you were

6 some -- always targeted. You were afraid for your family, for your

7 children, for your own life.

8 Q. Could I lastly ask you to look at the documents in this bundle,

9 which is Exhibit 6263 and 8457.

10 A. Give me a moment, please.

11 Q. Maybe the usher can help you. You first have the English version

12 and then behind it the original B/C/S version.

13 Witness, is it correct that these two documents, I showed you

14 these two documents this morning as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is it correct that these are medical documents relating to

17 Enver Dziho, and that both documents state that the date of injury was the

18 30th of October, 1993?

19 Now, witness, in your statement you don't recall the exact date

20 that this particular incident occurred, but if it says here the 30th of

21 October, 1993, would that be possible?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Witness?

24 MR. BOS: Your Honours, this concludes my examination. I would

25 just want to mention that as far as Mr. -- as far as Mr. Stojan Kacic is

Page 13910

1 concerned, we have an entry of this person in one of the war hospital

2 protocol books, which is Exhibit 05853, and there he is recorded also on

3 the 30th of October for treatment of a bullet wound.

4 That concludes my examination, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a very short

6 question to put to you. We know that you were a driver in the firemen's

7 brigade, or in the firemen unit, and as far as I can understand, you were

8 recruited as a fireman after you were discharged from Heliodrom on 24

9 July, 1993.

10 While you were a fireman, did it ever happen to you to go to

11 certain places to secure people who had been wounded by sniper? For

12 example, in this particular cases when we're talking about Stojan Kacic,

13 you have told us about that, but was that the only case or were you ever

14 called to other places to help other victims as well?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only on one other occasion was I an

16 eyewitness. The name of the person was Uimo Zer [phoen]. He was my

17 colleague. He was shot and two or three days later he succumbed to his

18 wounds. We were together. We were repairing tyres. He was also a member

19 of the fire -- fire brigade unit.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't have the translation in

21 my own language, but I've been following the transcript, and you said that

22 there was another occasion when this happened, when you witnessed such a

23 case.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the second time one of your

Page 13911

1 colleagues was hit. So these were the only two interventions that you

2 had?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now, Defence,

5 you have three-quarters of an hour.

6 Mr. Ibrisimovic.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any questions for

8 this witness, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Following Defence counsel?

10 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions for the witness on

11 part of the Defence for Mr. Prlic.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy.

13 MR. MURPHY: Good afternoon Mr. President and Your Honours. We

14 also have no questions for the witness.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Praljak will have a

16 few questions which your leave, but just for the record, I would like to

17 repeat the name that we did not hear. This is incident under item 14, and

18 the name that the witness mentioned was Uzeir Jugo. We already dealt with

19 this incident, and he is therefore making a reference to an incident that

20 we already are familiar with, not any other incident.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

23 Honours.

24 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

Page 13912

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. I will start with Ljubo Uzeir. You said you were repairing tires

3 together; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where was that? Was it in the courtyard of the firemen brigade's

6 perimeter or somewhere else?

7 A. It was in the perimeter of the firemen's brigade.

8 Q. Let's repeat that. The courtyard -- as we enter from Brace Brkica

9 Street through the gate, there is a courtyard.

10 A. No, not there. The first courtyard. Not behind the building but

11 the front yard, in front of the entrance into the firemen's building where

12 two lorries could be parked.

13 Q. So not the inner courtyard?

14 A. Not the inner one, in front of it.

15 Q. So in the middle of the street then?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When Stojan Kacic, who was hit, he was carrying the stretcher with

18 Enver Dziho who had been wounded before?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was it -- was he carrying the front part of the stretcher or the

21 back part of the stretcher?

22 A. The back part.

23 Q. You don't know in which leg he was hit?

24 A. I don't know, but I assume that it was his right leg.

25 Q. Where in his right leg?

Page 13913

1 A. I know that he grabbed his upper leg with his hand. Maybe he did

2 not touch the place where he was wounded. Maybe his whole leg hurt and

3 was not functioning properly.

4 Q. I'm just asking.

5 A. I believe it was his right leg.

6 Q. We don't have any proof from the Prosecution as to what the wound

7 looked like, where he was hit, whether it was his right leg or his left

8 leg, whether it was his lower or upper leg.

9 I have another question, Witness. When Enver Dziho was hit, he

10 was, at least in your drawing, in front of a house.

11 A. In front of a -- a garage or a storage.

12 Q. And in front of that house there is something that is known in

13 Mostar as a library in the Marsal Tito Street?

14 A. Yeah, but that is a bit further, some hundred metres away in that

15 direction.

16 Q. But when you stand in the place where Enver Dziho was hit, from

17 that building in the library building do you see the glass bank were you

18 ever in this that place did you ever turn to the that place were you able

19 to see the glass bank or whether the library building, which was in Marsal

20 Tito Street, this allows you to do that?

21 A. It has been told here that I found Dziho when he was already

22 wounded, and as you're looking from that building you can see the glass

23 bank despite the bank [as interpreted].

24 Q. But not from the place where Mr. Dziho was wounded?

25 A. There are no obstacles between the place where he was wounded and

Page 13914

1 the bank. Between number 2 where Dziho was lying and the glass bank,

2 there are no obstacle the barring the view.

3 Q. We saw that the passage is dark.

4 A. It is a shadow.

5 Q. Well, it -- it was a shadow. In narrow streets when the weather

6 is good and it is sunny, it is always dark. There is shadow. Can you now

7 imagine that from the glass bank which is 700 or 800 metres away? One

8 could see either with a pair of binoculars or without them. Could you see

9 a person walking through any of these dark little alleys in your view?

10 A. I believe that the picture tells one thing and in real life is a

11 different thing. I believe that, despite the sun, one would could see

12 things very clearly. I believe that in the picture, the shadow is more

13 visible than in real life.

14 Q. That's your opinion. Until we --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the date when Mr. Kacic

16 was wounded, do you remember what the weather was like? Was it sunny?

17 Was to cloudy? Do you remember what the weather was like?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was warm. It was summer. It was

19 sunny. It was beautiful weather.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Regardless of the documentation, in your statement you said this

22 sentence that I'm going to read --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, there is another

24 question.

25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Praljak. Just a

Page 13915

1 follow-up on the President's question.

2 Witness, it was warm and bright. What you say in your statement

3 is that the two witnesses wore military clothes. Is that correct? Do you

4 remember that? Witness.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you answer, please?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me put it this way: Muslims had

7 been expelled from the eastern bank to the western bank at the beginning

8 of the war. They didn't have anything. They were handed after the

9 conflict with the BiH army they were again expelled to the west bank, and

10 they wore anything they had, that they could get hold of. So there a was

11 lot of colourfulness in people's attire. Some people would wear half of

12 their clothes; would be civilians. The other half would be military.

13 And, for example, there were people working on a construction site dressed

14 in military uniforms.

15 It was October. I don't remember the -- the exact date, and

16 people wore anoraks and jackets working on construction sites.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the question put to you by

18 my colleague was very precise. My colleague and I myself, and I believe

19 my other colleagues, would like to know whether Mr. Kacic and Mr. Dziho

20 wore an attire that, seen from 700 metres, could have made the person at

21 that distance believe that they were BiH soldiers.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never looked through a

23 sniper, and I don't know how people looked through some sniper sites,

24 but I believe that one could make a distinction between a civilian and a

25 person carrying a stretcher, be they a soldier or not. It is my opinion.

Page 13916

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you can remember,

2 Mr. Kacic and Mr. Dziho, as far as you can remember, what did they wear?

3 What did they have on them?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found Dziho lying down in a

5 military shirt. I don't know whether he was just covered with that shirt

6 or whether he actually wore it. And I remember that he wore civilian

7 trousers.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that he had a

9 military blouse, a military shirt, which means that it was a camouflage

10 shirt.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was a camouflage shirt.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Barakovic, can you remember at what time of

14 the day this happened? Was it in the morning, at lunchtime, in the

15 afternoon?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The previous night I had been

17 working. We were working 24 hours and then had a rest 24 hours. So I

18 came back home from work, and I lay down to have a rest because it was

19 very strenuous work. And then my wife told me that Dusanka Begovic, the

20 neighbour next door, had been wounded. So I got up, went out to help,

21 crossed over, ran across the place where this -- to the place where this

22 happened because it was nearby. When I went down there I didn't see

23 Dusanka, I saw Dziho Enver lying down there.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I know that. My question was what time

25 approximately was this? Was it at 9.00, at 10.00, at 12.00, at 2.00 in

Page 13917

1 the afternoon?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the morning. Probably in the

3 morning. I don't know what I actually went to sleep, what time it was,

4 but it was morning, 9.00, 10.00, thereabouts. I don't really remember.

5 There was no electricity. We had nothing, so we couldn't really --

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. And can you tell me at what time the

7 video was taken? Was that also in the morning.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, but I don't remember.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have no idea at what time of

10 day you met with the investigator?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just asked -- answered half

14 my question. As far as Mr. Dziho is concerned, we knew that he -- know

15 that he was wearing a camouflage top, but what about Mr. Kacic? What was

16 he wearing?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, he had

18 camouflage trousers, some old ones washed out, and he had a civilian

19 shirt, a civilian top.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now when you answered my

21 colleague's questions you added another element, and I can't just skip

22 over that. You explained that in the morning, because you were sleeping

23 since you had been working round the clock previously, you had had a

24 difficult day, your wife told you that the neighbour had been wounded, and

25 that's how you came to get up. And then you said that it was the Begovic

Page 13918

1 person who had been wounded, as far as I understand.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dusanka Begovic, yes, a lady.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understand correctly, in

4 just a few minutes there were three people who were wounded; is that

5 right? Because you said, "When I went out thinking that I would find

6 Dusanka Begovic, I saw the other two wounded people." Or, rather, you saw

7 Dziho, who had been wounded.

8 So in the space of just a very short time, there are at least

9 three people who had been wounded. Right?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I woke up to go and help

11 Dusanka, I went to the shelter -- to take shelter under the first house,

12 and my second attempt to reach the wounded person was the -- my wife had

13 told me that Dusanka was wounded, and I couldn't see Dusanka anywhere. I

14 saw Dziho. Now, after that Mr. Kacic was wounded, and while they were

15 waiting for the stretcher to come -- well, it -- the stretcher came. They

16 took Dziho up, and how much time passed by I don't know.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Dziho and Mr. Stojan, were they both members of the BH

19 army?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Witness, do you know, since you were in the vicinity, did you know

22 or do you know that behind the library building there was a mortar

23 position of the BH army, the BH army had a mortar position?

24 A. When I came to the fire brigade there wasn't a mortar there.

25 There was no heavy weaponry.

Page 13919

1 Q. You never saw a mortar behind the library on Marsal Tito Street?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You said when all the Muslims were expelled from the west bank to

4 the east bank, do you know that the number of Muslims on the west bank

5 throughout the war was never less than 7.000? Of course, I don't deny

6 possible expulsions and so on. I don't say that nobody was expelled and

7 that people didn't do what they did, but do you know, and you are an

8 inhabitant of Mostar yourself, that the number of Mostars [as interpreted]

9 who remained on the west bank throughout the war, never dropped below the

10 figure of 7.000?

11 A. Well, I can give you my opinion but I haven't got any arguments

12 there to put forward to bear that out. I would say far less people.

13 Q. In your opinion, how many Muslims remained on the west bank?

14 A. Do I have to answer that question? I don't know. Well, I don't

15 know.

16 Q. All right. You don't know. That's fine. Now, can we place this

17 document on the overhead projector for the witness to look at.

18 It is a photograph that you've already seen, witness, and you've

19 marked the glass building, the glass bank on it. Would you mark on that

20 photograph, once you've taken a look at it, some other buildings? Can you

21 recognise where the Hotel Bristol was? Can we see the hotel from this

22 angle?

23 A. [No interpretation]

24 Q. All right. Now, to the left above the red roof we see a building.

25 What building is that? Do you think that that building is the building

Page 13920

1 that is on the corner of the Bulevar running to Marsal Tito Street? It's

2 also known as a bank building or Borovo building running to Spanish

3 Square. Would you say that is the building where your finger is pointing

4 to now?

5 A. Well, it could be.

6 Q. Would you put a number 1 there, please. That's right.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Then there's a sort of hole, and then there's another building.

9 Could that be the Bristol Hotel?

10 A. Well, the Bristol Hotel is opposite, towards the Neretva River,

11 lower down.

12 Q. Looking at it from this angle, it should be to the left of the

13 glass bank and to the right of the Borovo building. Would that make that

14 white building the Bristol Hotel, do you think?

15 A. Well, it could be.

16 Q. Then put a number 2 there, please.

17 A. [Marks]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you are an inhabitant of

19 Mostar, and you were also a fireman. So you know your area. Now,

20 according to you, from the position where those people were wounded, the

21 ones we mentioned a moment ago, if somebody happened to be located in the

22 Bristol Hotel or in the Borovo building, for instance, could they see the

23 three people who were wounded and -- well, actually, could they see the

24 three people and shoot them, shoot at them?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't pay attention to anything

Page 13921

1 like that. I don't think I can answer your question.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could the usher place this

3 photograph on the overhead projector.

4 Q. But before that, would you place your initials on that photograph,

5 the one next to you. Your initials, please. Put your initials on the

6 photograph.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Place your initials

8 there.

9 And, Madam Registrar, may we have a number for the photograph.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 391.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. This is the photograph taken by the expert, and we see the glass

13 bank building and the Borovo building, and I think you can see the Bristol

14 Hotel very well now, and a house below the glass house -- or glass

15 building. So would you place number 1 at Borovo, number 2 at the Bristol

16 Hotel.

17 Let me repeat. Number 1 for Borovo. Left, above the roof. No,

18 that ought to be the Bristol Hotel. Take a good look. That's Borovo. So

19 put a 1 there. Now the Bristol Hotel. Number 2 there, please.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And the glass bank, number 3. That's it.

22 A. [Marks]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question, sir.

24 You've just put a number 2 where the Bristol Hotel is. Now, I can note

25 that it is in a straight line facing the staircase, the steps. What

Page 13922

1 distance would you say as the crow flies is the hotel from the steps?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps 300 metres, 3 to 400

3 metres.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. Three to 400 metres.

5 Thank you.

6 Now, sir, when the shots were fired did you know who was

7 controlling the bank building? Whose -- under whose control was the bank

8 building and the Bristol Hotel and Borovo? In whose hands? Do you know

9 that or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your answer was yes. Who?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The HVO was in control of the bank.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The HVO controlled all three

14 buildings, did it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The Bristol Hotel was on the BH

16 army side, and the bank that was destroyed and Borovo was between the

17 lines on the BH army side. The Bulevar was the separation line.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Let me ask you more precisely. If the Bulevar was the separation

20 line and the HVO was in the secondary school buildings, who was in the

21 Borovo building?

22 A. I said the BH army and in Borovo, Bristol.

23 Q. So the BH army was in control of Borovo and Bristol; right?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. Now look at the buildings underneath the glass house or glass

Page 13923

1 bank. They are houses there are nearer, nearer to where we're looking

2 from.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. The two buildings, were they under BH army control, the two

5 buildings that I indicated?

6 A. They were on this side, the BH army side. Between the bank and

7 the separation line there was nothing. Everything had been destroyed.

8 The department store had been destroyed.

9 Q. Could you put a 3 and 4 -- or, rather, a 4 and a 5. Could you

10 place the number 4 and the number 5 there. Four.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And the white -- the building that is whiter. Yes, that's a --

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Now behind each of these buildings, could somebody have fired from

15 these buildings at this place here, from any one of those buildings? Yes

16 or no?

17 A. Well, you can shoot from any elevation, not only from these three

18 buildings.

19 Q. You're a man from Mostar. Where they were on the east, could they

20 fire at any point on the opposite side and vice versa? Was that what it

21 was like in theory?

22 A. Well, yes. It was a town. Everybody could shoot at everybody

23 else.

24 Q. So all this area to the left of Mostar, at any elevated point you

25 could shoot on the right side and vice versa. Anybody on the right side

Page 13924

1 at an elevation of any kind could have shot on the left side -- at the

2 left side.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Thank you, Witness. Now, can we have medical

5 documents with entry/exit wounds and so on? Can we ask for that so that

6 we can round off this subject of snipers without anybody having proved

7 where the sniping came from and what actually happened before the expert

8 witness comes in again?

9 Could you put your initials on that photograph, Witness, please.

10 Thank you, Witness.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Place your initials on the

12 photograph, please, Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And, Madam Registrar, a number,

15 please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 392.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

19 I asked the Prosecutor that by the time the expert comes in next

20 time that he should provide us with medical documents or photograph or

21 whatever show that we can see where each of these two victims was hit and

22 what the wound was like, whether it was an entry/exit wound or whatever.

23 That's what I asked for. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I've no

Page 13925

1 questions. May I just comment while I'm on my feet in relation to what

2 Judge Trechsel said? I think Your Honours will find if you look at the

3 videos and the photographs, not now but with the benefit of the compass

4 directions, one can see pretty reliably what time of day it was because we

5 know which is west and I think Judge Trechsel and Your Honours will get

6 some guidance from that.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one question. You

8 started asking a question, but I don't think it was fully answered. I'll

9 just take a minute of your time.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. You were asked about

12 the beginning of that day when your father told you that Dusanka had been

13 bit but when you went on the spot you saw Dziho. Now, can you say

14 something about that in your statement? Can you just confirm? Now, as

15 far as I understand it from your statement, Dusanka Begovic was in fact

16 not hit. She was not hit at all, but you realised that later on; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Right. Thank you.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have no questions but since

21 Mr. Kovacic came back again, Your Honour, Mr. Petkovic would like to use a

22 little time for a couple of questions, please.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Petkovic.

24 MR. PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Petkovic:

Page 13926

1 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. I would like go to see IC 389, that

2 sketch, please. May we see the sketch again, IC 389. May we lower it a

3 bit? Can we see the top part?

4 Now, Witness, would you mark the exact spot where the person was

5 wounded, the man Stojan - what was his name? - where Stojan was wounded.

6 The exact spot.

7 A. Well, this is the length of the stretcher.

8 Q. You just mark the spot.

9 A. Well, Spago was on the first step.

10 Q. Place an X or whatever you like. And place an S for Stojan so

11 that we know that is Stojan.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Now, tell us where you were when Stojan passed by you and was

14 wounded?

15 A. There's a concrete wall here behind the house, so that's where I

16 was.

17 Q. Where?

18 A. There's an entrance on the upper storey and a concrete wall

19 closing off the yard right below the steps leading up to the street.

20 Q. Well, you can put it on the roof, although you weren't on the

21 roof.

22 A. Well, that's what I'm saying. It would appear as if I'm on the

23 roof, whereas I was on the other side.

24 Q. Place an X there.

25 A. I was to the right of the wooden fence.

Page 13927

1 Q. Right. And that would be number 4. Place a 4 there, please.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. How far was that from Stojan?

4 A. From Stojan to where I was? About 20 steps.

5 Q. Did you walk behind him or did you run?

6 A. From the place where Dziho was wounded, Ibro Spago told me, "Go

7 and bring a blanket so that we can transport him to another place." And I

8 came to this house here and that's where I stopped for me to be able to

9 run across. However, in the meantime somebody present said the stretcher

10 was coming because the institute of hygiene was close by. However,

11 allegedly Dusanka had been wounded before that. That's what we heard. We

12 heard that Dusanka had been wounded, and somebody who had been to the

13 hospital had brought the stretcher, and they put Dziho Spago [as

14 interpreted] on the stretcher. They came up to me and passed by me, and

15 then I went behind them and crouched down behind the wall, and then the

16 rest happened. They took him up there because the ambulance was up there.

17 The ambulance couldn't come down to the other side. So the ambulance

18 parked by the school up on the road, and then Dziho managed to pull out.

19 There was a shop there, and anyway, he was pulled out and driven off.

20 Q. And when he came back to you, Mr. Praljak asked you where he was

21 wounded and you didn't know.

22 A. I said that he held his leg. So probably he was hit in the

23 leg.

24 Q. Well, you didn't ask the man, "Where have you been hit?" You

25 didn't look at it?

Page 13928

1 A. Why would I when the ambulance came to drive him away?

2 Q. Well, they didn't come and fetch him. He came back to the house.

3 A. The other --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly pause between question

5 and answer. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. A minute or so.

7 Dusanka we heard had been wounded. She'd already informed the people down

8 there.

9 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You said that the next day you talked to Ibro about what had

11 happened.

12 A. Yes. We saw each other.

13 Q. Did you ask him what had happened?

14 A. Well, what could have happened? We assumed what could have

15 happened. And it could have been worse.

16 Q. You say in your statement, and you said that the statement was

17 correct today, that in August it was -- in October it was summer.

18 A. I said I don't know what time it was, but the weather was very

19 fine, and it seemed to be sort of summer weather. And autumn in Mostar

20 can be the same as summer, nice and warm.

21 Q. You said it was before Christmas, and we know that Christmas is in

22 December and that it was a very nice day, and then you say it was probably

23 summer.

24 A. Well, might be a mistake.

25 Q. Well, I was a little surprised to see that summer was in October

Page 13929

1 before December, before Christmas.

2 A. Well --

3 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. No

4 more questions.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Tomic.

6 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No questions for this

7 witness. Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence teams have completed

9 their cross-examination. Is there any re-examination from the

10 Prosecution?

11 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours. I'd like to thank the witness.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. That completes

13 your testimony, Witness. I would like to thank you for having come to

14 make your contribution on behalf of the Judges and myself, and I wish you

15 every success in your future work and best wishes for your safe return

16 home.

17 It is 20 to 4.00. We're going to take a 20-minute break and

18 reconvene at 4.00.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

22 --- Upon resuming at 4.00 p.m.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session

24 for a few moments, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 13930











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Page 13932

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21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Belkisa Berisa.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And your date of birth, madam?

Page 13933

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1955.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, have you got a current

3 occupation or are you a housewife?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a housewife.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. A housewife. Now, would

6 you go ahead and read the solemn declaration.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. You may be

12 seated. We're going to take the screens away. Let me give you some

13 information.

14 To start off with the Prosecutor who you might have met with

15 yesterday or this morning is going to ask you questions and maybe present

16 you with documents, show you some video material and photographs, and that

17 will be short. Then you will have the Defence counsel sitting to your

18 left, and perhaps the accused, who will be asking you questions as well.

19 The Defence has 45 minutes at its disposal, and we hope that the

20 Prosecution will be able to get through the summary in 20 minutes pursuant

21 to Article 92 bis or ter.

22 If you have any difficulties, madam, please don't hesitate to let

23 us know and we'll take a break, but tell us if you experience any

24 difficulties. So that is how the proceedings are going to evolve.

25 I'm going to gift floor to the Prosecution. I don't know who it

Page 13934

1 is. Is it Mr. Mundis who is going to be taking the next witness.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, it is. Thank you very much, Mr. President.

3 Examination by Mr. Mundis:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Berisa.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, pursuant our usual practice, I'm now

7 going to read the Rule 65 ter summary of the witness's expected

8 testimony.

9 The witness was a resident of East Mostar living in the area

10 called Rodoc. On about 2 September, 1993, she and her family were

11 expelled from their home by Croatian Defence Council soldiers. They were

12 escorted by Croatian Defence Council soldiers who told them to walk

13 towards Buna. Her husband, Ibrahim Berisa, was arrested by Croatian

14 Defence Council soldiers and imprisoned in Heliodrom. The witness and her

15 family went to East Mostar - excuse me - and stayed with relatives in the

16 area of Tekija.

17 On 2 February, 1994, her son Orhan Berisa, born 5 March, 1985, was

18 killed by a sniper while playing outside in Tekija.

19 That concludes the Rule 65 ter summary. I would ask with the

20 assistance of the usher if the witness could please be provided with a

21 bundle of documents. I see she already has a bundle of the exhibits.

22 Q. Ms. Berisa, in 2001, did you provide a written statement to

23 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?

24 A. How do you mean? In writing, a written statement? What do you

25 mean by "written"?

Page 13935

1 Q. Did the investigator of the Tribunal meet with you in September

2 2001 and ask you questions?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And at the end of that question and answer session, through an

5 interpreter, did the investigator read back the statement to you with the

6 interpretation providing the statement to you in the Bosnian language?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. Can you tell us, ma'am, if you would now turn to what's

9 been marked P 09856. Do you have that document in front of you? And I

10 ask you to please turn to the first page of that in the English. And I

11 would ask you, ma'am, if you see your signature on this document.

12 A. Yes. Yes, I did sign it. That is my signature. She read the

13 statement to me, and I just signed it. And it's my story. It is my

14 statement.

15 Q. Now, Mrs. Berisa, when you came to The Hague two days ago, were

16 you provided with a Bosnian language version of your statement?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And after being provided with a copy in the Bosnian language,

19 ma'am, did you have an opportunity to read the statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Having read the statement in the Bosnian language, Mrs. Berisa, is

22 there anything you would like to add to the statement?

23 A. I read it. I don't want to add anything. I just want to tell the

24 story. I want to tell what I wrote in my statement.

25 Q. We'll get to that, ma'am, in just a moment, but let me ask you

Page 13936

1 this: Is there anything that you would like to change with respect to

2 your written statement?

3 A. [No interpretation]

4 Q. Is there anything that you would like to delete or take out of

5 your written statement?

6 A. [No interpretation]

7 Q. If I were to ask you a series of questions like the investigator

8 did in 2001, would the answer to those questions be the same as what is

9 written in your written statement?

10 A. It would.

11 Q. And, ma'am, to the best of your recollection, is that written

12 statement that you have before you truthful?

13 A. It is truthful.

14 Q. At the time, Mrs. Berisa, that the investigator of the Tribunal

15 met with you, did you provide him with some documents relating to your son

16 Orhan?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you please turn to 8501 in the bundle before you and tell us

19 what the document 8501 is?

20 A. This is a death certificate, a death certificate. This is my

21 son's death certificate.

22 Q. I'd ask you, ma'am, if you could now turn to the Exhibit 9132, and

23 if you could please tell us what this document is.

24 A. This is another death certificate.

25 Q. And does this document also relate to your son Orhan?

Page 13937

1 A. Yes, Orhan Berisa.

2 Q. And I would now ask, ma'am, if you could please turn to Exhibit

3 9045 [Realtime transcript read in error, "9405"] that is also in the

4 bundle and tell us, if you can, please, what that document is.

5 A. I apologise. I apologise. This one is a birth certificate, a

6 birth certificate for Orhan Berisa, and the other one is a death

7 certificate.

8 Q. Now, Mrs. Berisa --

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the transcript says 9405 I think it's

10 9045.

11 MR. MUNDIS: 9045, that is correct. Thank you very much,

12 Mr. Stewart.

13 Q. Mrs. Berisa, could you please tell us about the day that your son

14 Orhan Berisa was shot?

15 A. That day, around 1.00, I had prepared lunch for my children. Then

16 my acquaintance, Elvira Husic, called me and said, "Belkisa, it seems that

17 your son Orhan has been wounded in the leg." In the meantime I ran up to

18 my cousin's balcony. I thought that I would see better and then my

19 husband appeared and said, "Why are you going to the balcony? There's

20 stairs here." But I couldn't see where I was going, and I was looking

21 down below in front of the balcony. I could see my child lying on the

22 ground near the balcony in the courtyard, and he only said, "Mother."

23 I could throw just a quick glance at him, and then my husband drew

24 me inside, and I never saw him again after that, and I -- I felt

25 unconscious. That was the last time, the last time when I saw my son.

Page 13938

1 Q. Mrs. Berisa, I'm sure everyone would understand if we need to take

2 a break for your benefit and so, if that's the case, please --

3 A. No, no, no. I'm okay.

4 Q. If you do need a take a break at any point in time, ma'am, you

5 tell us, and we'll take a break for your benefit. Let me ask you --

6 A. Thank you. No, it's not necessary.

7 Q. Let me ask you, at the time when you were making the lunch for

8 your children that you told us about, where was your son Orhan at that

9 point in time, and what was he doing while you were making the lunch?

10 A. My son was in the basement where children were playing games. He

11 was playing with them, and then he went outside to come upstairs to have

12 lunch. But as he was passing through the courtyard there were sniper

13 shots, and near the staircase of the other building he was shot through

14 the back, and his whole body was shattered as a result of that.

15 Q. Now, Mrs. Berisa, can you tell the Trial Chamber how you found out

16 what happened to your son? Who told you about this?

17 A. Elvira called me and told me, "Belkisa, Orhan is wounded in the

18 leg," and I didn't know anything about him being wounded in the back. I

19 thought he would be wounded in the leg. And then my husband came

20 and, "Our Orhan is gone. He died on the spot where he had been shot."

21 And then after that for a long time they didn't dare tell me the truth.

22 Q. Mrs. Berisa, were you aware of the presence of snipers in Mostar

23 in 1993 and 1994?

24 A. Yes. We didn't dare go anywhere during the day. We didn't dare

25 go and fetch water, and children did not dare go out and play. They would

Page 13939

1 play in the basements. He was only young. He didn't know, or he thought

2 It wouldn't be me. We just could not make it clear to the children it

3 wasn't safe and they were not supposed to play outside.

4 Q. Mrs. Berisa, do you know based upon your discussions with your

5 neighbours and other people who lived in your building where the snipers

6 were located in Mostar or in the vicinity near your apartment building?

7 A. Of course I do. There were hundreds of them, hundreds, and we had

8 to be aware of the hundreds of them. And there -- there was this place

9 called Stotina where they were. And not only my child. There was another

10 child who was a refugee, and another girl who lived in the neighbourhood,

11 and my son.

12 Q. I would ask now -- Mrs. Berisa, I'm going to show you a photograph

13 on the computer screen in front of you. It's a 360-degree photograph like

14 we looked at earlier today. I'm going to show this photograph to show the

15 entire 360-degree circle, and after we're done with that I'm going to ask

16 you some questions. Do you understand that, Mrs. Berisa?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you see the photograph on the screen in front of you?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. I'm going to rotate the photograph all the way around in a

21 complete circle and then I'll ask you some questions at the end.

22 Now, Mrs. Berisa, do you recognise what was visible in this

23 360-degree photo that I've just shown you?

24 A. This is the place where my son got killed, the late Orhan, near

25 the staircase where you came out of the basement through the door of the

Page 13940

1 other building. He ran up to the other building, and this is where he was

2 hit in the back from Stotina.

3 Q. I would ask now, ma'am, with the assistance of the usher some

4 photographs can be shown to you, and I'm going to ask you if you can make

5 some markings on these photographs, which are stills that were taken from

6 the 360-degree photo that we just saw.

7 The photograph that's now -- that you're now looking at, ma'am,

8 can you tell us what this photograph is a picture of?

9 A. Here, this is where my son got killed, my young son. Below this

10 staircase, this is where he was crawling through, and then there were some

11 other children, two neighbour's children that dragged him through to the

12 other building, and this is where he got killed.

13 Q. Now, Mrs. Berisa, can you please take that marker that you have,

14 and I'd ask you to draw an X at the location where Orhan fell when he was

15 shot.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Now, you mentioned this is where he was crawling through. Can you

18 draw a line in the direction that you were just pointing to with the pen?

19 Can you please draw a line indicating --

20 A. Up to here. Up to below this balcony.

21 Q. Now, we can see, ma'am, the staircase and -- and the area that's

22 underneath the balcony. Can you tell us, the line that you've drawn

23 does it go up the stairs, or does it go behind the stairs, under the

24 balcony?

25 A. Below the stairs. Below the balcony. This is where children

Page 13941

1 went, and this is where they caught him.

2 Q. I'm going to ask now the usher to provide you with a second photo.

3 In the meantime, Mrs. Berisa, could you please put your initials on that

4 photograph for me, the one that you've just marked. Yes. And we would

5 ask for --

6 A. I didn't understand. What do you want me to do?

7 Q. Could you please just put your initials down on the bottom of that

8 photograph.

9 A. [Marks]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a question. Leave the

11 photo, please.

12 First of all, can we have an IC number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 393.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, a little bit more about

16 this photo.

17 Witness, I have to ask you something to clarify a certain thing

18 that you said. We have here a hill or a mountain, and behind, across the

19 road from the hill, what is there? Are there any buildings? Or what is

20 there? We can't see it in this particular photo. We can see the mountain

21 or the hill, but what is across from it?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring for this?

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the hill.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Stotina, but this building

25 did not exist at the time. This is a newly built building. This was

Page 13942

1 empty here, this area here. And this is Stotina.

2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, but if you look at the hill

3 called Stotina, behind your back, what would be there? Another mountain,

4 another hill, a building? If you were facing Stotina, what is behind your

5 back?

6 A. There's just Stotina here. There's no other hill. This is

7 Stotina, nothing else, no other hill.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Judge, perhaps if -- it might be helpful I have three

9 more photographs to show her and then perhaps we could show the 360 again,

10 and it might then become a little bit clearer to Your Honour, if perhaps

11 we can just proceed like that if that's okay.

12 Could the second photograph now be shown to Mrs. Berisa.

13 Now, you told us, ma'am, a few moments ago that your son -- or the

14 other children were crawling under the balcony. Can you tell us what's

15 advisable in this photograph, please?

16 A. This is the balcony. Below the balcony children were crawling,

17 and they brought my child to in front of the other building here, and this

18 is where I saw him. This is what children explained to me. Here below

19 the balcony, over there.

20 Q. Okay. Mrs. Berisa, could you again take the marker and draw what

21 you've described as under the balcony to the place out -- where your son

22 was taken out.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Now, again, ma'am, for purposes of clarification, you've drawn the

25 line right below the handrail. Was that where your son was, or was he

Page 13943

1 under that platform?

2 A. Below. Below.

3 Q. And can you see, ma'am, the corner of that platform in the

4 photograph?

5 A. Again, I didn't understand your question. I apologise. I didn't

6 understand the question.

7 Q. Do you see where the two lines that you've drawn cross, where they

8 intersect?

9 A. The other one comes here. This is where it is supposed to come

10 through from the courtyard, and this here is a car. So from this car

11 here.

12 Q. Okay. Let me make sure that we all understand, because the lines

13 that you've drawn appear to be up on the stairs. Is that right, where

14 you've drawn the line?

15 A. But under the balcony. This is under the balcony. This is below,

16 but this is through the middle. This here is empty. This is an empty

17 space.

18 Q. That's what I'm trying to understand. The empty space below where

19 you've drawn the lines, is that where your son was taken out?

20 A. Yes, it's empty below. Yes, yes. This is where it's empty.

21 Q. Okay. Could you please take the marker and colour in the empty

22 area below. Can you see the empty area in the photo?

23 A. Yes, it's here.

24 Q. Just please shade that area in or colour that area in with the

25 marker.

Page 13944

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Now where you've drawn the squiggly line, is that where your son

3 went out -- was taken out?

4 A. Yes, through here, underneath, below this concrete thing.

5 Q. Now, again, Mrs. Berisa, if you could please place your initials

6 in the bottom right-hand corner of this photograph?

7 MR. MUNDIS: And we would ask that this also be given an IC

8 number.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC number 394.


12 Q. I'm going to ask you, Mrs. Berisa, to look at two more

13 photographs. First we'll look at this one. Can you tell us what's

14 depicted in this photograph, please?

15 A. This photo depicts the basement. From this basement my son ran up

16 to the staircase, and this is where he was shot from Stotina. From the

17 basement he ran up. He was running up to the stairs.

18 Q. Now, let me say -- let me ask you this, ma'am. When you say the

19 basement, which -- can you circle what you say is the basement, or from

20 this -- you say this photo depicts the basement. Can you circle what you

21 mean by the basement?

22 A. The basement is inside. How am I supposed to -- this is the

23 basement. This is the basement window, and this here is the basement.

24 Q. Now, let me ask you this, then, ma'am: There's a door that's

25 open. Do you see the open door?

Page 13945

1 A. Yes, this is the open door, and this is the basement under the

2 entire building.

3 Q. If you went through the open door, Mrs. Berisa, where would you

4 end up? Where would you go if you went through that door?

5 A. Down the stairs to the basement, up the stairs to the apartments

6 in the building.

7 Q. Okay. Can you please place an X on the doorway that would lead

8 into the building where you could either go down into the basement or up

9 in the apartments.

10 A. But this entrance door is the same for the building, for the

11 apartments and for the basement. It's the same door. There's just one

12 door.

13 Q. I understand, ma'am. Could you just for the record place an X on

14 the door, the doorway.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Okay. Now, you told us that your son was in the basement playing

17 while you were making the lunch. Is that correct?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Now, to go from the basement to your apartment, what was the route

20 your son would have taken?

21 A. This would be the route, and then he should have entered under the

22 staircase, and then he would have entered our building. I just pointed

23 those to you a while ago.

24 Q. And again, Mrs. Berisa, at the end we'll show the 360 again and

25 you can explain it perhaps to the Judges, having marked these photos. Can

Page 13946

1 you please draw a line from the X, an arrow, if you would, from the X the

2 direction your son would have gone to your apartment.

3 A. Are you referring to this here?

4 Q. Yes, ma'am.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. And again, Mrs. Berisa, if you could please put your initials on

7 the lower right-hand corner of this photograph.

8 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that it be given an IC number, please.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes IC number 395.


12 Q. And finally, Mrs. Berisa, in terms of the photographs, in response

13 to a question from one of the Judges a few moments ago you mentioned a

14 house that wasn't built at the time your son was shot. Do you see that

15 house in this photograph?

16 A. This one here.

17 Q. Can you -- can you trace the outline of that house, including the

18 roof, with the red pen for us, please?

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Berisa. Do you know when that house was built,

21 approximately, the house that you've just circled?

22 A. Maybe three years ago. Three and a half, not more than that.

23 Q. Now, what is on the opposite side of that house? What is behind

24 that house? What would you be able to see if that house weren't there?

25 A. There's nothing behind the house but a park, and behind the park

Page 13947

1 you can only see Stotina, nothing else. There's a road, a street. I

2 don't know how to call it.

3 Q. So before this building was build could you see the Stotina house

4 or not? Could you see the houses in Stotina or could you not before this

5 house was built?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Yes, you could see them or yes, you could not see them?

8 A. You could see the houses, and the house us still stand there.

9 They've always been there.

10 Q. I Would ask, ma'am, that you would put your initials on that

11 photograph.

12 MR. MUNDIS: And I would also ask that it be given an IC

13 number.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, a number,

15 please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 396.


18 Q. Now I'm going to show you, ma'am, if you could now please look at

19 the 360-degree photo on the screen. We're going to go through that one

20 more time, and again, because we've now marked the photos, you can just

21 describe for us what you see on the 360-degree photo. Do you understand

22 that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So when you see something that you'd like to tell us about, please

25 do so, and I'm going to start rotating the photograph now.

Page 13948

1 Ma'am, we're not able to capture it, so if there's anything you

2 want to say, please say so rather than -- I don't know. It appears as

3 though you might be pointing. If there's anything you'd like to say as we

4 show this one last time.

5 A. Here, that's where the space underneath the balcony is. I'll show

6 you where the children were going up the stairs. So underneath that

7 balcony there, and then two children came to help my child and pulled him

8 out. This is an entrance to the building, 9C, number 9C.

9 This is where this was sawed -- sawed off so they could go up and

10 down, and they would jump down from there. And that's where the entrance

11 is where you go to my building where I was with my relatives.

12 That's the building. That's where he was killed.

13 Q. Now, Mrs. Berisa, at the time of your son's death, how old was

14 he?

15 A. He was to have a birthday and be nine years old in 23 days' time.

16 He was too small.

17 Q. Finally, Mrs. Berisa, could you please turn to 9046 in the bundle

18 that you have in front of you. Can you tell us, ma'am, how old your son

19 was when this photo was taken?

20 A. Six.

21 Q. Thank you for answering our questions, Mrs. Berisa.

22 MR. MUNDIS: We have no further questions.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, as far as I'm concerned

24 in these very dramatic and painful times, I nonetheless have to do my job

25 and ask you some questions in order for the Judges to have all the

Page 13949

1 elements necessary for us to be able to know and realise what happened.

2 You said on several occasions that the shot came from Stotina, and

3 we have the photograph in front of us where behind the house built three

4 years ago there's the hill and there are houses behind there.

5 Now, in February 1994, and in January, to the best of your

6 knowledge, madam, had there already been shots which had wounded or killed

7 people in the area that we can see depicted on the photograph?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So your answer to my question is

10 yes. Now, all the inhabitants, did they know that the area was very, very

11 dangerous? Did all the residents know that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what about the parents, the fathers and mothers of the

14 children like you? Did they tell their children to be very, very careful

15 when going out into that area?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And I assume that's what -- that

18 that is what you did. You explained to all your children that they should

19 be careful.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Always.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When your son was killed under

22 the circumstances which you have described to us, did you yourself or your

23 husband had or your family members, did they contact the BH army to ask

24 why this had happened? Did you make any inquiries with the authorities if

25 there were any authorities to be contacted at that time? Did you inquire

Page 13950

1 what had happened, why?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't ask anybody anything.

3 I was very ill. My husband had been wounded. We had nobody to ask. We

4 couldn't ask anybody anything. All we know is that the UNPROFOR people

5 went out to the spot and took pictures, and the woman, Gas Sabaha, who

6 took him to hospital, told me about that.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us that

8 UNPROFOR came on the spot to take photographs; is that right?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Not the spot, but my late son

10 in hospital, in the institute of hygiene. They went to take photographs

11 of him. That's what the lady told me, but I didn't see any of that.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, madam, to the

13 best of your knowledge, in February the ABiH, did it have any soldiers in

14 that area, in the buildings? Were there BH soldiers in your sector?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't see any. I don't

16 know.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I saw and I heard -- you say

18 that your husband was wounded. Under what circumstances was he wounded?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992, my husband was wounded. He

20 worked in the parks. He was cleaning the parks, and a shell fell, and he

21 was wounded in his -- on his -- the left side of his body. A shrapnel

22 entered in the heart area, and his arm -- the muscle of his arm was

23 shattered, and he can't do a thing with his arm any more. So he was

24 wounded -- he was wounded very seriously, and he's an invalid from that

25 shell that exploded. That was in 1992. It was in July, August when he

Page 13951

1 was wounded.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question: The

3 authorities in your country, I assume that in Mostar there was a

4 prosecutor. Now, to the best of your knowledge, the authorities in your

5 country, did they undertake an investigation to find out what had

6 happened? Did you yourself -- were you yourself called to give testimony,

7 or did you see any lawyers or did nobody bother about you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody ever bothered to come and see

9 me, no lawyer, nobody. Nobody came to ask about our pain and suffering,

10 the suffering of a father and mother losing a child like that. I didn't

11 see anybody, hear anybody, talk to anybody. Nobody came to ask us

12 anything. I can say that quite definitely. I can say that under oath

13 anywhere. Nobody came to tell us what had happened or to ask what

14 happened, whenever --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, I assume that in Mostar

16 today you're not the only person who had a child killed or wounded or

17 whose nearest and dearest had suffered in some way, and is it really true

18 that none of the authorities are investigating, gathering information

19 about those incidents?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know about that. Only

21 the social centre that has the records. That's the only place, but nobody

22 else anywhere else.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Madam, do you know by whom your husband was

24 wounded, from which side, from Serbs, from HVO?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The former army. The Serbs. The

Page 13952

1 beginning it was. That was at the beginning.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Hvala Ljepo.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And your husband, having been

5 wounded by the Serbs, he doesn't receive an invalid's pension, a

6 disability pension, or any subsidies or financial support and assistance

7 of any kind?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He couldn't receive anything.

9 Nor does he have any money or anything. No remuneration at all because my

10 husband wasn't a soldier. He was a civilian.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has 45 minutes. Who

12 is going to start off?

13 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Mr. Prlic has no

14 questions for this witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Next counsel.

16 MR. MURPHY: We have no questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just have one

19 question with respect to a photograph to link it up with the expert

20 witness later on.

21 May I have IC 396 on the ELMO, please.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. I am adjust going to ask

24 one thing to help us out with that photograph. I won't bother you with

25 any other questions. Just tell us, please, to the left of the building

Page 13953

1 that you've marked, the building to the left, did that building exist

2 during that terrible tragic event when your son was killed?

3 A. This one?

4 Q. To the left. That building. That's right. Did -- was that

5 building in existence?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So it was only this other building that you marked with a circle

8 that was built later?

9 A. Yes. This area here.

10 Q. So all the other buildings that we see on the photograph were in

11 existence at that time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

15 MR. STEWART: No questions from the Petkovic Defence.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions

17 either, Your Honours.

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis. Thank you.

20 Madam, that completes your testimony. On behalf of my colleagues

21 and myself, I would like to express all our sympathies for the drama that

22 you lived through. All I can advise you to do is perhaps see a lawyer in

23 Mostar if you have the means to do so, and perhaps try and find out what

24 exactly happened, and also to receive some psychological support and

25 assistance. Before, of course, it is only a lawyer who can advise you

Page 13954

1 what to do.

2 Now, the Victims and Witness Unit might also be able to help. And

3 all that remains for me to do is wish you a safe journey back to your

4 country, and we express our condolences.

5 I'm now going to ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for listening

7 to me, for hearing me out so I could express my pain somewhere and before

8 someone. Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This brings us to the third

11 witness of the day. Any protective measures requested there?

12 MS. GILLETT: No, Your Honour, there are no protective measures

13 requested, but I would just caution one thing.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

15 MS. GILLETT: The witness's statement is going to be tendered

16 under Rule 92 ter, as Your Honour will know. In that statement, on the

17 last page, there is mention of a particular incident, and I may therefore

18 be tendering the statement under seal and would appreciate if anything

19 pertaining to that particular incidents were not mentioned in open court

20 as it may seek to identify another person rather than this witness, being

21 the concern.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 MR. STEWART: That relates to the last three paragraphs, does it,

24 of the statement?

25 MS. GILLETT: I that's correct.

Page 13955

1 MR. STEWART: Wouldn't it be good practice for a redacted version

2 to go public, seeing as most of the statement relates to this particular

3 incident.

4 MS. GILLETT: Indeed. The Prosecution is more than happy to

5 redact as the Chamber wishes.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to place

7 it under seal for the time being. Then you can provide a redacted version

8 after which we can give it a definite number.

9 I'm going to ask Madam Usher to go and fetch the witness.

10 We're going to take a break at around 5.30. I hope, Ms. Gillett,

11 that you'll be able to complete your examination in 30 minutes' time.

12 MS. GILLETT: I hope so, too, Your Honour. I'll do my best.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness seems to have

14 disappeared.

15 We're going to take a break to be able to find the witness and

16 reconvene in 20 minutes' time at 5.25.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.06 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 5.26 p.m.

19 [The witness enters court]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Let me

21 just check to see whether you can hear me and understand me.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] May we have your first and last

24 name and date of birth, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Elvir Demic, the 2nd of

Page 13956

1 October, 1970.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your currents

3 occupation?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work as a professional

5 firefighter.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Sir, have you ever

7 testified before a tribunal on the events that took place in your country

8 or is this the first time?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you now go ahead the read

11 the declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You may be

17 seated.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Some information to start off

20 with. You've already met the Prosecution. They're going to ask you some

21 questions and show you some documents, and the Prosecution will have about

22 20 minutes to do that. After that, the Defence counsel and the accused

23 will have 45 minutes at their disposal to ask you questions if they

24 consider that necessary, and the Judges sitting before you might also be

25 asking you questions.

Page 13957

1 If at any time you're feeling unwell, don't hesitate to let us

2 know.

3 So that, in general terms, is how the proceedings are going to be

4 conducted. And if everything goes ahead as scheduled, you'll be finished

5 with your testimony by the end of the day.

6 Madam Gillett.

7 MS. GILLETT: I'm grateful, Your Honour. Thank you. I'll begin

8 by reading a brief summary of the witness's statement which will be duly

9 tendered into evidence under Rule 92 ter.

10 The witness was a member of the fire brigade in East Mostar. The

11 firemen and the fire trucks were targeted by the HVO artillery and snipers

12 when attending fires.

13 Around September, 1993, the witness was attending a fire in East

14 Mostar when the firemen were targeted by HVO mortars and snipers. As a

15 result, they were forced to withdraw from the fire. When things calmed

16 down, they tried to return to the fire but were again targeted by a

17 sniper. Several bullets hit the water tanker that they were in, and one

18 bullet entered the cabin and grazed the back of the driver's head. The

19 wounded driver was Alija Jakupovic.

20 That concludes the summary.

21 Examination by Ms. Gillett:

22 Q. Good evening, Witness.

23 A. Good evening.

24 Q. Witness, do you remember being interviewed by somebody from the

25 Office of the Prosecutor?

Page 13958

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And do you recall when that was?

3 A. It was in 2001, sometime during the summer.

4 Q. Now, at that time when questions were put to you, did you answer

5 the questions truthfully?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And did you do so voluntarily?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At the end of the interview do you recall the statement being read

10 back to you in your own language?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. And at that time, do you recall signing the statement that had

13 been prepared confirming to the best of your knowledge and recollection

14 that it was true?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. GILLETT: Could I ask the witness be shown the B/C/S and

17 English versions of his statement which are marked as Exhibit 09857.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.


20 Q. Witness, have you had the opportunity to read this statement again

21 prior to coming into court, either today or yesterday?

22 A. Yes, I did have an opportunity to do that.

23 Q. And if you look through the statement, both the English and B/C/S

24 versions, is that your signature or your initials that we see on each of

25 the pages?

Page 13959

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Having re-read the statement, is there anything that you would

3 wish to withdraw or delete or to correct?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. And today do you still stand by the contents of the statement as

6 being true to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness.

9 MS. GILLETT: The Prosecution will tender the statement in due

10 course.

11 Q. Witness, in relation to your statement, you mention on the first

12 page of the statement that the fire trucks were red fire trucks, and yet a

13 little later on when we get to view a video, you mention a yellow fire

14 truck. What I'd like to ask you is whether there was any difference

15 between red and yellow fire trucks.

16 A. Well, it was like this: The fire brigade's vehicles were all red.

17 Now, why this particular one was yellow, the sole reason was that before

18 it reached the firefighters' union, it had been used in the utilities

19 company. It was used for washing the streets and washing the parks and so

20 on.

21 Now, when the conflict broke out, since we were lacking in

22 vehicles and in fire engines, I don't remember how that truck came to be

23 in the fire brigade but, anyway, it came to the fire brigade. And as it

24 was wartime, we didn't have an opportunity to paint it red, so it stayed

25 yellow.

Page 13960

1 Q. How many yellow fire trucks were there in the fire brigade at that

2 time?

3 A. Well, just that one.

4 Q. A little later on in your statement, at page 3, you describe

5 attending a fire at a house in September of 1993 in that particular yellow

6 truck. You mention that there were several single shots impacting on the

7 wall outside. Do you know what was being used to fire at you?

8 A. Of course I know. As a matter of fact, at that point we knew what

9 types of weapons were in question because we were experiencing single

10 shots with a very strong impact. This was sniper fire.

11 Q. Now, in 2004 do you remember meeting with an investigator and also

12 a photographer from this Tribunal in Mostar?

13 A. Yes, I do remember.

14 Q. And at the time, were you asked a series of questions that related

15 to the incident described in your statement in September 1993?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And was this question and answer session videotaped?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. GILLETT: I could ask the witness to be shown Exhibit 9140.

20 Q. And, Witness, I'm going to ask you if you would view the video

21 that is going to be shown you, and I will ask you some questions following

22 that.

23 [Videotape played]

24 "Investigator: Mr. Demic, to the best of your recollection, is

25 this the original yellow fire truck in which your colleague Alija

Page 13961

1 Jakupovic was shot at in September 1993?

2 "Witness: Yes.

3 "Investigator: Has this truck now been painted red?

4 "Witness: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 "Investigator: Mr. Demic, to the best of your recollection,

6 please indicate where bullets hit the truck on that day in September,

7 1993.

8 "Witness: [Indicates]

9 "Investigator: Thank you very much. Mr. Demic, to the best your

10 recollection, could you please point where the bullet that hit Mr. Alija

11 Jakupovic at the back of his head impact the truck?

12 "Witness: [Indicates]

13 "Investigator: Thank you very much. Mr. Jakupovic, to the best

14 of your recollection could you please assume the position in which you

15 were when you were shot in the summer of 1993?

16 "Witness: [Witness complies].

17 "Investigator: Could you please point out where the bullet hit

18 you?

19 "Witness: [Indicates]

20 "Investigator: Thank you very much."

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't know if Ms. Gillett realises we

22 can hear her. She probably doesn't want to be heard when she's having

23 those discussions with her own team.

24 MS. GILLETT: I can appreciate that I can be heard. There's

25 nothing secretive in what I was saying. The video does continue a little

Page 13962

1 further, and I was hoping that we can, yes, get a little bit further along

2 with the video. There is a short break from what we've seen and then it

3 continues with this same witness in a slightly different location. I

4 believe that we have now found that clip.

5 [Videotape played]

6 "Investigator: Mr. Demic, to the best your recollection could you

7 please indicate where the fire truck was driving when it was shot at in

8 September, 1993?

9 "Witness: [Indicates]

10 "Investigator: Mr. Demic, could you please point in the direction

11 the fire truck was driving that day?

12 "Witness: [Indicates]

13 "Investigator: Thank you. Mr. Demic, to the best of your

14 recollection could you point in the direction from which you heard the

15 shots coming from?

16 "Witness: [Indicates]

17 "Investigator: Thank you very much."


19 Q. Now, Witness, before I ask you any questions relating to the

20 content of that video, I'd like you to confirm whether or not you

21 recognised yourself in that videotape.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And also whether, at the time, you understood the instructions

24 that were put to you by the investigator that we see in the videotape.

25 A. I did.

Page 13963

1 Q. And at the time, did you comply truthfully and to the best of your

2 knowledge with the instructions that you were given?

3 A. Yes, of course.

4 Q. And as you sit here today, and having viewed the videotape again,

5 would you like to change any of the answers that you provided back in 2004

6 to the investigator?

7 A. No. There is no need to do that.

8 MS. GILLETT: Once again, Your Honour, the Prosecution would

9 tender that video in due course.

10 Q. Just in relation to what we've seen in the video, in fact the last

11 clip that we saw where you seem to be standing by a patch of grass, you

12 mention in your statement, on the third page, second to last paragraph in,

13 I believe, both the English and Bosnian language versions, that there was

14 an open spot that you had to cross in the truck in which you were

15 travelling. How long in terms of distance was that open spot?

16 A. About 150 metres, I would say.

17 Q. Excuse me. Now, in addition, you also mention in your statement

18 that the bullets that hit the water tank must have been fired from the

19 west. Can you be more precise in your description of where those bullets

20 came from?

21 A. I adhere by what I said at the time. All the shots that were

22 fired at us while we were extinguishing the fire and while we were

23 moving about, all these shots came from the western part of the town of

24 Mostar.

25 Q. Can you be any more specific other than stating in the western

Page 13964

1 side?

2 A. I was referring to HVO positions, naturally.

3 Q. Now, you also mention in your statement that Mr. Alija Jakupovic

4 was hit in the back of his head. Do you know what injuries he

5 sustained?

6 A. On that occasion, the driver Alija Jakupovic was shot in the head,

7 in the back of the head. The wound was serious but not as serious as some

8 others. He was taken to the hospital and then he was discharged home.

9 He still suffers consequences. He has very frequent headaches. He has

10 not been disabled by the wound, but this is where the wound was, in the

11 head.

12 Q. Now, finally before I shown you a photograph, in your statement

13 you mention at the time of this incident you went to extinguish a fire in

14 a house at around 1300 hours. Are you able to say at what time the truck

15 in which you were travelling and in which Mr. Jakupovic was shot, what

16 time that occurred?

17 A. It was around 1.00 when we were called to attend to the fire, and

18 the shooting incident during which my colleague was wounded took place

19 around 1500 or 1530 hours.

20 Q. And again do you remember how far away in terms of distance you

21 had travelled from leaving the house where you'd been trying to extinguish

22 the fire?

23 A. We didn't get very far from the house. We managed to negotiate

24 some hundred or 150 metres from the house itself.

25 Q. Now, after the videotape that we've just seen was made, did you,

Page 13965

1 back in 2004, observe the photographer placing a tripod on the location

2 where you had been standing and taking some additional photographs?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 MS. GILLETT: Could the witness now be shown the Exhibit 9139, the

5 360-degree photograph.

6 Q. Before the photograph is rotated, Witness, what I'm going to ask

7 you to do is view the photograph, and it will be moved around in 360

8 degrees. Now, I'd like you to watch the screen as this is happening and

9 say stop if you see the location where you believe the person or people

10 who shot at Mr. Jakupovic were located at the time. Do you understand

11 what I'm asking you to do?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. The photo is now going to be rotated through 360 degrees, and you

14 just say stop if you see the location I've mentioned.

15 A. Stop.

16 Q. Now, obviously that photograph contains and lot of information, a

17 lot of buildings, and we also see hillsides at the back. Can you describe

18 to the Court the exact location, using that photograph, from where you

19 believe the shot or shots were fired?

20 A. This is the complex of white buildings that are in the shape of a

21 cascade.

22 Q. There's quite a number of white buildings that photograph. Are

23 you able to say whether it's the white buildings to the left, in the

24 centre, or to the right of the photograph?

25 A. To the right above the roof of the railway station. Above that

Page 13966

1 are step-like white buildings ascending at first and then descending

2 towards the right.

3 Q. Now, a screen shot has been taken of this particular location,

4 which I would be grateful if I could be assisted in passing to you, and if

5 it could be put on the ELMO. It might then be a lot easier if you can,

6 using the pen that will be given to you --

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, before we proceed with this, I wonder

8 if I could just make an observation which does apply to a lot of this sort

9 of evidence, which is the way the question was put is, "Can you describe

10 to the Court the exact location using that photograph from where you

11 believe the shot or shots were fired?" But what that question does is

12 jump right over the essential prior point which is the basis for that

13 belief, because that is fundamental. There's no point in going on to the

14 next stage of marking where he says unless we have dealt with that

15 absolutely critical first stage, and it's not a matter to be let for

16 cross-examination. It's a fundamental matter in the presentation of the

17 Prosecution's evidence on this point.

18 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I'm more than happy to take on board

19 that point, safe to say that in the statement which this witness has given

20 and which will duly be tendered and has been appropriately identified,

21 there is evidence as to why the witness believes the shots came from that

22 particular direction.

23 MR. STEWART: But I'd like to make an observation about the

24 statement which is that in the sixth paragraph of the statement the

25 witness says, "I shall make it clear when I am talking about what I saw,

Page 13967

1 and I shall make it clear when I am talking about what I have heard from

2 someone else."

3 Now, without going into elaborate submissions, the statement

4 certainly does not do that. I'm not blaming the witness, particularly,

5 because those bits of statements are drafted for him. But precisely

6 because no such distinction is properly drawn, it's absolutely critical

7 that when the Prosecution take the opportunity of supplementing the

8 written statement in this way, that they do it in the way that we have

9 just submitted it should be done.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have heard what the

11 lawyer has just said. What prompts you to say that the shots came from

12 the step-like buildings? Is that your assumption, or are you deeply

13 convinced that this was the case for a certain specific reason?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I am certain, because I

15 was present. I was sitting in the lorry, shoulder to shoulder with my

16 colleague who got shot.

17 Another thing that I'm absolutely certain of, since I was born

18 there some hundred, 200 metres away from that place and I slept there for

19 days, my parents live there, I know from them and from my own personal

20 experience that this is where shots came from.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We know that you were in the

22 lorry. You've -- you've told us exactly where the lorry was.

23 We have a photo that depicts Mostar in its entirety. There are

24 several buildings in that photo, and if a shot came from anywhere in

25 Mostar towards the lorry, the firemen's lorry, it could have come from

Page 13968

1 various places, from the left, right. But how do you know? What allows

2 you to say that the shots came from the right side of the photo where we

3 can see step-like buildings? How can you be sure? What allows you to say

4 that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This part here where the railway

6 station is, this part here, there was nobody there. In this part here, in

7 this part there was a -- sort of a no man's land where there was no

8 activity, and this was the separation line. Here were HVO positions, and

9 only from this part, from those buildings, could the shots have come. And

10 since the shots came in an oblique line, it could not have -- they could

11 not have come from this point here, because if the shots had come from

12 this place, the bullets would have entered through the door. But since

13 they came from the back of the lorry, it is only logical that the shots

14 came from the right, from these buildings here or from the area in front

15 of them. And anything behind the white buildings would have been too far

16 many there was no separation line or any other line, although anything

17 goes. Anything is possible.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you say everything is

19 possible, I see a building in front of the railway station which has two

20 storeys and a lot of windows. I don't know whether it was there at the

21 time in 1993, but I would say that the shots could have come from that

22 building as well, and it is aligned with the roof of the railway station.

23 So I would say that the shots could have come from there as well, from

24 that building.

25 I believe that in your view the shots came from the building after

Page 13969

1 the separation line, but the shots could have easily come from the

2 building that was in the area under the control of the BiH, although this

3 might seem far-fetched to you, but why not, just for the purpose of an

4 academic exercise. That is also possible.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything is possible, but it

6 really doesn't make any sense at all, because this building in front of

7 the cascade and everything behind, everything was under the control of the

8 HVO, save for this little part in the left-hand side corner and the

9 railway station. The railway station was empty. There was nothing there.

10 Everything behind that roof is the line after which everything was

11 under the control of the HVO.

12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, this incident, as well as

13 all the others that you witnessed, are the investigations over? Did

14 anybody collect the bullets or debris?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not carry out any

16 investigation. We didn't search for any bullets or anything like that.

17 It was -- it was wartime, and it just wasn't done. We didn't find

18 anything.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Gillett.

20 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, yes.

21 Q. Witness, perhaps now that you have the photograph in front of you

22 and have been referencing a number of different points, it might make

23 things clearer if you are able to mark on that photograph the location or

24 locations where the -- you believe the shots came from. If you need to do

25 that by means of marking with an X, or if it's easier to draw a circle

Page 13970

1 around if it's a larger area, whatever is the easiest and most precise way

2 of identifying the area for you.

3 A. First and foremost, I can't be precise when pointing to the window

4 from which the shots came, but I am sure, and I assume, of course, that

5 this would be this complex of buildings.

6 There are some smaller houses that you can't see in -- in this

7 area from the trees, but there are some smaller buildings there as well,

8 and the shots could have come from there as well.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I am looking at the

10 photo of the lorry with a lot of attention, and you pointed your finger

11 when you were with the investigator where the shots came from and where

12 they entered, and you pointed to four holes, and you explained that there

13 was a bullet that entered through the back of the lorry and entered in the

14 head of your colleague.

15 When I saw the photo and when I listen to you, the first

16 impression I had was that the shots came from the round -- you -- you are

17 a fireman. What was your impression when -- was the lorry targeted? Or

18 the cistern, was it targeted to destroy the source of water, or was the

19 driver of the lorry targeted?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we arrived there to extinguish

21 the fire we were rather successful, and the -- we were shot at as soon as

22 we arrived. But we were protected at first. That's how the house was

23 built. The lorry was not visible. And after that there was mortar fire.

24 Some five or six shells were fired into the house and around the house.

25 Until then, until we arrived there to tend to the fire, the day was

Page 13971

1 peaceful and calm.

2 As we started leaving the place of the fire, we started leaving in

3 the lorry, and we could not have passed 50 metres or so. There were first

4 shots at the lorry. The first shot, I don't know where it hit. It did

5 hit the lorry because we heard the sound of metal. And then there was the

6 second shot, the third shot. And the fourth shot was fatal because it hit

7 our driver.

8 As we were driving, we had to pass another 50 metres or so to the

9 next house where we would have been safer. And I believe that a sniper

10 shot is not strong enough to pierce the cistern metal because this is much

11 thicker, and it can only scratch the surface of the metal.

12 In addition to that, since the cistern was hit three times, the

13 person who was shooting was not happy with the three shots into the

14 cistern but continued shooting into the driver's cabin, and it is obvious

15 what the purpose was.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The chronology of what you're

17 saying -- well, you said something that might be of importance to us

18 Judges. You said that that was a mortar shell, which allows us to assume

19 that it was extremely difficult for you to put out the fire, which was

20 your job. But when a mortar explodes or shoots, it makes a lot of noise.

21 So did you wonder where this could have come from or not?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we didn't ask ourselves those

23 kind of -- those questions. We were fully conscious of what was going on

24 at the time in town, and we knew the mortars -- where the mortars and the

25 projectiles came from.

Page 13972

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you just said they come from

2 a particular location. What place was that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know where they came

4 from, but I know that they came from the HVO positions in the west. But I

5 can't tell you the exact locations.

6 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, I only have one more question to ask you. You've already

8 mentioned, when I asked you earlier, the approximate distance that you and

9 your colleague were away from the house whose fire you had been trying to

10 put out, and again I believe at line 81.4 you also mention the distance of

11 approximately 50 metres that you had left the house before the shots were

12 fired.

13 With that in mind, is it possible to see in the photograph that

14 you were shown earlier, the 360-degree photograph, is it possible to

15 identify the house that you had attended to on that day to extinguish the

16 fire? Is it shown in the photograph?

17 A. Yes, you can see that house on the 360-degree photograph.

18 Q. In that case, I would ask you once again to do a similar exercise

19 before, and as the photograph is moved through the 360 degrees, if you

20 could shout "stop" at the point where you're able to see this house to

21 which we've been referring.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop there, please.

23 Sir, apparently what we can see on this photograph, the

24 countryside, is opposite to what we were thinking of before. Now, I

25 can see that there are hills. Now the hypothesis that I'm going to put

Page 13973

1 to you: Couldn't the shot have come from there as well, from that part?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And why do you say that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the entry wound, the

5 bullet -- are the bullet entered the truck, you can see that it entered

6 from -- well, had it come from the upper side, it would have hit me here

7 in my head. But as it was my colleague who was killed, it came across me

8 and hit the other person, whereas if it came from the opposite direction

9 it would have been somebody sitting to my right who might have been hit.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, the hills that we can see

11 behind, were there any armed forces there, military units, soldiers, or

12 was there nobody there?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was where ordinary civilians

14 lived, just the people, civilians. No soldiers.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.


17 Q. Witness, again if you could keep a lookout for the house that you

18 had attended and say "stop" at the point when you see the house in the

19 photograph.

20 A. I haven't got the image on the screen.

21 Q. That helps. Do you see it in front of you now, Witness?

22 A. Still further on, please. Stop.

23 Q. Again we see a couple of buildings in that particular photograph.

24 To which house are you referring?

25 A. That is the house, the front one, the one in front. Well, behind

Page 13974

1 it is the big house. So between those two houses on the right, there's a

2 small roof that can be seen, a small roof in between, between the front

3 house and the house -- the bigger house at the back. You can see a

4 little red roof. That's the house. So we took this road, then we came to

5 the open space where the stone is. So it's just about a hundred metres

6 away.

7 Q. Thank you, Witness. I believe that's a clear description.

8 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I have no further questions to put to

9 this witness or indeed exhibits.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No more questions? A question

11 from the Bench.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sir, I have a very simple question. Can you tell

13 us approximately at what speed you were driving at that time? How fast or

14 how slow did you go?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Better to say how slow, because the

16 truck was an old one, not in very good repair. So I don't suppose we went

17 faster than 20 kilometres per hour.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have 45 minutes to go to

20 7.00. That makes it perfect timing. First Defence team.

21 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour. We have no questions for the

22 witness.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Second Defence team?

25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with the Court's

Page 13975

1 permission, Mr. Praljak would like to ask a few questions.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you only have nine

3 minutes unless you've been given time by other Defence teams.

4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] They have given me more

5 time, yes.

6 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. Let's clarify some points first. At that time in Mostar, was

10 there the HVO on one side of Mostar and on the other side it was the BH

11 army? Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was part of a detachment of the Mujahedin from Konjic present in

14 Mostar at that time? Do you know about that?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. Do you know that outside the BH army there were certain troops,

17 certain forces which were called the MOS, Muslim forces led by Mr.

18 Smajkic, in part?

19 A. Not in Mostar. Perhaps elsewhere.

20 Q. Just say whether you know about this or not.

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, in your statement you say that all the Muslims

23 from the right bank were expelled to the left bank. Now, I want to know

24 whether you know that at that material time, the time you're referring to,

25 on the right bank of Mostar under HVO control were -- there were about

Page 13976

1 3.500 Serbs and 7.000 Muslims. Do you know about those figures?

2 A. I don't remember mentioning any expulsions or anything like that

3 in my statement.

4 Q. I'll find that passage. Just let me take a moment. It is on

5 page 3 of your statement. You say: "The war between the Bosnian Croats

6 and Bosnian Muslims started on the 9th of May, 1993. All the Bosnian

7 Muslims were expelled from western Mostar and had to relocate to East

8 Mostar."

9 A. I remember now.

10 Q. So it is on the basis of that statement of yours that I am asking

11 you the following: Do you know that in -- on the west bank despite some

12 tragic events that took place, there were nonetheless 7.000 Muslims left

13 and 3.500 Serbs who went on living there?

14 A. I know a certain amount of Muslims remained, but as to the

15 figures, I can't say.

16 Q. Tell me, please, everybody says a sniper shot. Now, how can you

17 tell a sniper shooting? What do you mean by sniper? Do you know what a

18 sniper is?

19 A. Yes, I do because I was in the former army, the JNA. I was an

20 infantryman and I had occasion to see a sniper. I didn't shoot from a

21 sniper, but I did see what it looked like and others.

22 Q. Can we agree that it is a type of rifle of a certain calibre which

23 has a scope or optic sites which bring the target close up? That's what

24 it means?

25 A. Yes, roughly.

Page 13977

1 Q. So when you hear a shot, you don't know if it's a sniper or a

2 rifle without a sniper device?

3 A. Well, you can't tell if a sniper is shooting with a scope or

4 without a scope, but you know that it's a sniper.

5 Q. Let's take the M-48 rifle. Whether it has an optic sight or not,

6 it shoots the same way?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Or a Remington rifle with optic sights or without --

9 A. [Realtime transcript read in error, "JUDGE ANTONETTI:

10 [Interpretation]"] Well, it doesn't target the same way.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down and speak

12 one at a time. Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Yes, we agree that there is a difference if there's a difference

15 in calibre. So the difference is just in calibre, not whether it has an

16 optic sight or not.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Stop

18 there. At line 9 on page 87, it seems that I said something but let me

19 underline I was not talking at all. I wasn't speaking at that precise

20 line and time. Proceed, please.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. The yellow truck at that time wasn't a fire engine by virtue of

23 its colour, was it?

24 A. Well, not by virtue of its colour.

25 Q. So somebody might consider that a yellow truck was carrying

Page 13978

1 petrol for the BH army and would have considered that to be a legitimate

2 military target. Would you agree with me there? They could. It's a

3 possibility.

4 A. Well, at some point in time maybe, but not at this point in time.

5 It was a truck.

6 Let me explain to you. A truck which was transporting water

7 cannot be carrying petrol. Now, somebody -- a truck carrying petrol can

8 carry water. So the water trucks were just designed for carrying water

9 and they haven't got many same valve system and all the rest of it. So if

10 you were to pour petrol in it, the petrol would run out because it wasn't

11 designed to carry petrol.

12 Q. Witness, I understand what you're saying, but put yourself --

13 place yourself in a position of somebody five or six metres away [as

14 interpreted]. He can't see any of this. All he sees is a yellow truck

15 and he says to himself this is a yellow truck transporting petrol for the

16 BH army and I'm going target it would you agree with me that someone

17 would think that way?

18 A. They can think anything they like but let me also tell you that we

19 were just 50 metres from where the fire was. So you can see whether it's

20 a water truck, a cistern, or something else. We came there in broad

21 daylight. The army wouldn't be transporting petrol in broad day like

22 that.

23 Q. I'm not saying that. I'm just asking you a hypothetical question

24 that if somebody was on the right bank sees a yellow truck can,

25 hypothetically speaking, think that they were transporting petrol. Is

Page 13979

1 that a possibility?

2 A. Well, it's a possibility.

3 Q. Now --

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can I say this, then there's no

5 confusion. At line 8, there's a reference to five or six metres. I'm

6 quite sure that either wasn't what was said or what was meant. That's

7 what appears in the English translation. Place yourself in the position

8 of somebody five or six metres away.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes she said 500.

10 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, 500 to 600 metres is

12 what I said.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Praljak's question

14 is a very interesting one. Now, in Mostar was it widely known that the

15 fire trucks could be yellow, because mostly the fire engines are red? So

16 did people know that there were yellow trucks that were being used as fire

17 engines, as firefighters' trucks?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just explain. Since we had

19 the truck before the conflict that broke out with the HVO, we -- the fire

20 brigade used that truck before the conflict, and everybody knew that this

21 yellow truck was being used by the fire brigade, and it remained with the

22 fire brigade, and everybody knew that it was a water truck supplying the

23 population with water. So there was no doubt at all about its just being

24 an ordinary truck carrying water.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So what you're saying is that

Page 13980

1 before the conflict broke out the HVO knew full well that the fire brigade

2 used this yellow truck or a yellow truck.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. The truck was

4 used before the conflict by the fire brigade. The fire brigade had that

5 truck before.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Another question in this context. Would it be

7 wise to drive towards a fire with a car full of petrol?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course not. Of course it

9 wouldn't be reasonable, nor would you go out in full daylight with a truck

10 like that.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood it

12 that the same people shot at the road while the fire was being

13 extinguished, but that might not have been the same person.

14 Q. Now, when we say that the HVO knew, which HVO? In Mostar, on both

15 banks there were several thousand people, right? Along that length you

16 agree there were many people?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So on the left bank and on the right bank were they all from

19 Mostar? For example, on the left bank in the BH army, people from Gacko,

20 Nevesinje, Stojnica [phoen], and so on, and on the right bank perhaps from

21 Ljubuski, Siroki Brijeg, and so on. So did -- could these people have

22 known that the yellow water truck transported water? Was that

23 necessary -- did they necessarily know that when they went on duty?

24 A. Well, on our side, on our bank, everybody knew that that truck was

25 the water truck, because during those three or four months everybody knew

Page 13981

1 us very well and everybody saw the truck and knew it very well. Now, as

2 to the right bank, well, people didn't have to know. Perhaps they'd never

3 seen it. But the proximity itself --

4 Q. Let's move on. We don't -- I don't have much time so I'm going to

5 move on.

6 Now, do you know why the truck wasn't brought to the place where

7 the event took place for us to be able to see it on that location? You

8 don't know why.

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. And you don't know why Mr. Alija Jakupovic, for instance, who was

11 hit, isn't testifying about the event? You don't know about that?

12 A. I do know about that, yes.

13 Q. All right. You know about that. Right. Now, do you know that

14 the BH army -- now, may we have a picture. May we have the 360-degree

15 photograph played, please, so that we can establish some facts. And I'm

16 going to ask you the following about that particular photograph. I'm

17 going to ask you where the railway station is and you'll tell me, and

18 I'm also going to ask you if you know whether part of the railway station

19 was used or served as a warehouse for certain goods. Do you know about

20 that?

21 A. I don't know about that, and I'm quite certain that it didn't

22 serve that purpose. It didn't serve any purpose.

23 Q. Are you quite sure of that in view of the documentation we have or

24 what other witnesses have told us or aren't you sure? Stop there, please.

25 Stop.

Page 13982

1 A. Since I passed by almost on a daily basis, I passed through the

2 station and around the station almost every day, and I never saw a single

3 soldier guarding anything or anybody move around there. It was an eerily

4 empty space.

5 Q. Now the fact that you didn't see anyone, does that mean that you

6 knew that there was nothing there? Or did you not see anything yourself?

7 A. Well, I didn't ask around. I didn't ask anybody. But the very

8 fact that it was amend at this area, I can assume that there was nothing

9 there.

10 Q. Now, can you tell me the following: Did the BH army at the

11 material time control the entire area of Bijelo Polje, Vrapcici, or the

12 left bank, in general terms?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Tell me, what was the communication between that large area in

15 Mostar if nobody ever passed by that way took that road? So what road and

16 route did they take?

17 A. The road by the railway station has nothing to do with that other

18 communication line.

19 Q. Well, where did they go?

20 A. The Bijelo Polje-Mostar road was taken at night. So it was the

21 M-17 motorway or main road.

22 Q. Were you a soldier? Did you go up on duty when you can claim with

23 such certainty that it was only the main road that was used on at night?

24 Do you know about that or are those your assumptions?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, could you slow

Page 13983

1 down, please.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The fact remains that the BH army controlled Vrapcici and Bijelo

4 Polje and that there was communication.

5 A. During the night.

6 Q. In your view this was taking place during the night. You

7 mentioned a location called Pasjak. Do you know that the 4th Corps of the

8 BH army had its artillery?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. According to what you know, one segment of that artillery, was it

11 in Pasjak, for example, mortars?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You're not aware of that. You have shown us and marked in this

14 photo the right-hand side buildings as a possible location from which

15 shots came against the vehicle. Is this known as Mostar 2 or Centar 2 in

16 Mostar?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the expert who dealt with your

19 case expressly said that the shots came from Ledera are you aware of

20 that?

21 A. The Ledera and these buildings that are marked between Ledera and

22 these buildings, the distance is some 50 metres. When I was marking the

23 buildings, I said that I am not aware of the exact building, the entrance,

24 the window from which the shots came. But if the distance between these

25 buildings is 30 metres, then --

Page 13984

1 Q. Witness, these buildings that you showed are some several hundred

2 metres long, and from Ledera to Centar 2 there are several hundred

3 metres?

4 A. There's just one street, Crna Street, and that's it.

5 Q. Please be so kind and tell us if you see the Ero Hotel, and if you

6 see it, can you point the hotel for us? You should know that, next to the

7 mosque.

8 A. I don't have the image on my screen.

9 Q. Let's wait for the image to appear on the witness's screen.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's on the ELMO.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I have it.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Could you please point to the Ero hotel. You see a tower and,

14 next to that tower, as far as I know -- can this be placed on the ELMO.

15 Mrs. Usher, we have a very good photo. Could this be placed on the ELMO.

16 Hello. Could you please take the photo and put it on the ELMO. This will

17 really be good because we will have a very good view of the area.

18 Witness, can you see in the left-hand side corner a tower? Is

19 that the Ero hotel?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you put number 1 next to it.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Across the road from Ero you can see a balcony there. Would that

24 be Ledera?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13985

1 Q. Can you put number 2 next to it?

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Could you please mark Centar 2 as you have marked before. Could

4 you put a number 3 next to it or on it?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Witness, can you now see Witness that the 30-metre distance that

7 you mentioned is far from being precise? We're trying to establish the

8 truth here. Let's be precise talking about the things that we are

9 familiar with.

10 Now, to the right from the railway station, can you please put a

11 number 4 on the railway station roof.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. This is the railway. Would -- to the right of it, would be the

14 North Camp?

15 A. I can't see it in the photo.

16 Q. I'm not saying that you can see it, but I'm asking whether it is

17 to the right of the railway station?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you put a number 5?

20 A. [Marks].

21 Q. So the BH army was in the North Camp as well? Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. It had to communicate with the North Camp; is that correct?

24 A. Yes it is.

25 Q. Now, tell me this. Let's assume --

Page 13986

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Please slow down. Slow down.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, the other Defence

4 teams have donated you time, but there is another lawyer who has questions

5 to put. Which Defence teams wish to put questions to the witness and for

6 how long? Nobody? Mr. Stewart.

7 MR. STEWART: Probably about five minutes, Your Honour. Something

8 like that. Depending on the answers as always, of course. So perhaps I

9 could say if I reserve my 10-minute allocation then I should be safe,

10 shouldn't I?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 MS. GILLETT: If this is for timing I will have one question at

13 the moment for re-examination.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Mr. Praljak,

15 try to finish at 10 to 7.00, and if you finish quarter to 7.00 it will be

16 even better.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'll try to do my best,

18 Your Honour.

19 Q. Let's now propose another hypothesis. Let's imagine that out of

20 the 35 or 40.000 people on the west bank, half of them are men. And let's

21 say I was a criminal who wanted to kill people on the western bank. At

22 how many places that you see in the photo could I in the morning, in the

23 afternoon, between lunch and dinner, after lunch, place a sniper or an

24 M-48 rifle on a balcony, at a window, at an entrance, put an optical

25 device on that rifle and shoot at people whenever I decided to do so?

Page 13987

1 Would that be a possibility?

2 A. In a war, anything goes.

3 Q. What would have been -- could that have been on the left bank of

4 the Neretva? Was it possible for any of these embittered people for one

5 reason or another, and there were a lot of reasons to be bitter, to take

6 an M-45 rifle, to put an optical device in their pocket to hide in a

7 certain place and remain hidden for two hours until they saw somebody on

8 the left bank and shoot at them? Is that possible?

9 A. It is possible but I doubt that this is the case.

10 Q. A doubt is one thing. A possibility is another. Is it

11 possible?

12 A. Yes, it is possible. Well, if you ask me whether it is possible

13 for this building to collapse, it is possible. It is certainly possible.

14 Q. We have statements by the international representatives about

15 people coming to the hospitals on the west bank who had been shot in that

16 way and how many of them were Muslims. There is such information. There

17 is no secret about that. So everything is possible. What would have been

18 a possibility that, for example, if you were a commander there and that

19 you were in command of a unit, for you to discover a noise of a bullet

20 coming from a certain direction, how possible would it have been for you

21 to discover who -- where the shots came from?

22 A. Possible.

23 Q. Was there frequent shooting in Mostar?

24 A. Yes, there was.

25 Q. So it was true that there was frequent shooting?

Page 13988

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And between the shots somebody is waiting at one of those places,

3 hundreds of places that they could hide at and shoot at your lorry. Is

4 that a realistic possibility?

5 A. It is not a realistic possibility. It is a theory.

6 Q. It is a very realistic possibility, but this is where I'm going to

7 stop and I'll move on to another subject.

8 We have dealt with the problem of the North Camp and communication

9 with the North Camp. It is true there was communication between the North

10 Camp and -- but this communication had to pass by the railway station. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes it is.

13 Q. Now, let's imagine that you were an HVO commander. Can we have

14 the photo back. Can you see those hills over there? On those hills, was

15 there HVO artillery or tanks?

16 A. I suppose that there were.

17 Q. You suppose there were. You were an HVO commander. You see a

18 lorry or a water tank and you command the tank to blow that lorry up. How

19 many shots does one tank have to fire in order to blow up the tank?

20 A. I don't know. Maybe two or three shots.

21 Q. Two or three shots, you're saying. Do you know that the tank was

22 also on mount Hum?

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

24 Q. Hum is to the left of the photo, isn't it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13989

1 Q. And this could have been done by a tank or a ZIS 68-millimetre or

2 some other tool. Is that possible?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the place where you were extinguishing the fire, was it also

5 visible to the positions of the HVO artillery and their observers?

6 A. The position was visible because there was a lot of smoke and this

7 could be seen from all other the place. The lorry, however, was not

8 visible but the building and the area were visible and were well marked by

9 the smoke.

10 Q. And let's say you are a commander of an operative zone or a HVO

11 commander. Somebody reports to you there was a good target there. Could

12 you have been blown that target up in -- under a minute?

13 A. I might have been able to do that.

14 Q. Very well, then. Could we have the 360-degree photograph shown

15 once again, because we saw some hills over there and I would like to ask

16 you some questions about them. And this would be the end of my

17 cross-examination. Could you please put your initials on this photo and

18 can we have an IC number for the photo, please. Yes, please, on this

19 photo. Could you put your initials there, thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, an IC number,

21 please.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be IC number 397.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we now rotate the photo

24 again? Can we start the rotation of the photo, please.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, did -- could you put

Page 13990

1 your initials on the previous photo?

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Can we go back a little.

3 Just a little, please. Stop.

4 Q. Look at the hill. It was also under the HVO control, wasn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let's move forward to the left. Let's move the photo. In the

7 back behind the greenery is Hum, and, yes -- and there are also HVO

8 units?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We are facing south; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let's move on. Let's rotate a little further. Now we are going

13 eastwards. The eastern side is approaching slowly. Stop.

14 Now we can see some hills here.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were these hills under the control of the Republika Srpska army?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How far is the Republika Srpska army away from the -- from this

19 place?

20 A. From the hill or from the place where we are standing?

21 Q. From the hill.

22 A. From the hill, it must have been some five kilometres.

23 Q. Five kilometres as the crow flies?

24 A. No, not as the crow flies.

25 Q. To the left or to the right?

Page 13991

1 A. Yes, but when you look at this --

2 Q. How much as the crow flies?

3 A. I don't know I'm not an expert in that but it must have been two

4 or three kilometres.

5 Q. From there one could launch a mortar fire from the positions of

6 the Republika Srpska army. I mean, one could do that. It is a

7 possibility?

8 A. I don't know what range of the -- of that particular tool is.

9 Q. Five kilometres. And tell me, are you aware of the fact that

10 throughout most of the conflict the Serbs were launching fire on both

11 the left bank and the right bank as they willed? Are you aware of that

12 fact?

13 A. I know that they're shot from the right bank, but during that

14 conflict there were very, very few and far between shots by the Serbs.

15 Q. There were shots from the right bank but there were also shots

16 from the left bank, otherwise what would the artillery be for? But I'm

17 asking you about this particular situation. If you know that there was

18 fire, you should tell us there was fire or there wasn't fire. You

19 shouldn't tell us there were very few and far between shots. What is

20 that?

21 A. That means that during the war maybe a two-digit number of shells

22 were fired from there, which means that there were under 20 -- under a

23 hundred shells fired.

24 Q. Recently we read a book written by one of your commanders and he

25 said that in the month of September, we had a fanatical support by the

Page 13992

1 artillery when we -- and -- shot at Croats. Do you know anything about

2 that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I believe you, that you don't know. But if you don't know, you

5 should say, "I don't know." I'm not putting words in your mouth but it is

6 very difficult for one to say "I don't know" and then give us a number.

7 Can we rotate the photo a little bit further. And now the last thing I

8 would like to ask you. The Serbs are up there. Can you please put this

9 on the ELMO and then that will be my last question to the witness.

10 This is a very imprecise drawing of your lorry. Stop. Now look

11 at these hilltops and, as you look at those hilltops, would you -- what

12 would you say? Was this controlled by the BH army or by the Republika

13 Srpska or do you not know?

14 A. This was the BiH army on the hilltops.

15 Q. On the hilltops?

16 A. Approximately thereabouts.

17 Q. Approximately then. Can you please look at my sketch, a very bad

18 sketch of your lorry. And can you please draw the exact direction from

19 which the bullet entered the driver's cabin.

20 A. It entered somewhere somewhat in the middle of the driver's cabin

21 below the roof. I believe that you can see it in the photo some 20

22 centimetres from the roof of the cabin.

23 Q. Can you put that, 20 centimetres.

24 A. This is where the driver was sitting.

25 Q. In what direction did the bullet come from?

Page 13993

1 A. The bullet hit him to the back of the neck, so that would be the

2 direction. At an angle. The shot wasn't straight. It was at an angle.

3 Had it been from Ledera, the bullet would have hit the wall -- the door.

4 However, since it was at an angle then it was Centar 2, the Centar 2

5 direction.

6 Q. And if the shot had come from Ledera then the bullet, according to

7 you, would have hit the door, would it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Then write Ledera for that other direction. And tell me this:

10 The bullet that hit the man or, rather, grazed him, if it hit him he would

11 have been dead, could you tell us how the bullet passed through his neck?

12 Was it right to left or --

13 A. Across his head like this.

14 Q. Parallel to the forehead?

15 A. Well, not parallel. This left side like this.

16 Q. So when he's facing the windscreen it is above the left ear; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you for your patience. Thank you, and would you sign or

20 place your initials on that sketch, please. Thank you.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please,

23 Madam Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is IC number 398.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Stewart.

Page 13994

1 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I know Mr. Petkovic has a

2 couple of questions but I think our combined operations will finish at

3 6.55 Central European Time, with any luck.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:

5 Q. Witness I just want to follow up that -- this question about the

6 bullet going into the cabin of the truck. You described on the video how

7 you -- where other shots you say hit the truck and you pointed out where

8 this particular shot that we've just been looking at went in and it was

9 just a little bit below the top of the cabin, behind and higher than you

10 would have been sitting inside the truck. That seems to be a description

11 of what you said on the video.

12 You haven't said anything about where the bullet went out of the

13 truck if it did. Do you have any knowledge yourself from your inspection

14 of the truck as to whether and how the bullet went out of the cabin?

15 A. As far as I remember, it didn't exit the truck. So when it hit

16 the tin, it lodged there, or perhaps it went out of the window. Since it

17 pierced part of the metal, it lost its strength and was either lodged in

18 the second metal partition or maybe it went out the window.

19 Q. Let's please just stick to what you saw and found yourself.

20 You've described where it went in and you said you inspect the that back

21 at the fire station. You said what it did next, which is -- "graze" is

22 the word in the statement -- your colleague's head, and you're saying in

23 your inspection you found no indication of where the bullet went out of

24 the truck. Is that correct?

25 A. First of all, we didn't look for the bullet at all, nor was it

Page 13995

1 something that we would do. There were thousands of bullets like that, so

2 is wasn't something that we did. The most important thing was that the

3 man wasn't killed. As to the bullet, we didn't look further. Perhaps it

4 was lodged in the cabin, but we didn't pay any attention to that. We

5 didn't take time to find it or anything.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we're speeding up because the witness

7 has answered my next question as well.

8 Q. The -- you say in the statement that the bullet had entered the

9 cabin from the back with an angle of about 45 degrees. Are you saying

10 that there was something about the hole in the back of the cabin which

11 told you that it had entered at that sort of angle?

12 A. Well, the hole itself on the truck and the imprint made by the

13 bullet it as it entered, the imprint on the metal, you could establish

14 that the bullet must have come at that kind of angle.

15 Q. So you either had sufficient previous experience of bullet holes,

16 or if you didn't, it was absolutely obvious to you, was it, that it was at

17 that sort of angle?

18 A. Well, you could see it. You could see that the bullet hadn't come

19 in at right angles, straight. You can see the impact on the metal, and if

20 you'd seen quite a few of those kinds of holes then you would have been

21 able to say that.

22 Q. You see, the way you describe it, would you agree that the bullet

23 seems to have gone in a straight line according to you, through the hole

24 at that angle, carried on in a straight line, grazed your colleague's

25 head? Do you agree that that's your description of what happened?

Page 13996

1 A. Yes. The bullet went straight. I didn't say the bullet didn't

2 go straight, but in relation to the cabin, the bullet came in at an

3 angle.

4 Q. The reality is before you even looked at the truck back at the

5 fire station you decided what had happened. You decided in your own mind

6 where it had come from, and you didn't actually conduct any serious

7 inspection at all because you didn't, for example, even look for the

8 bullet. That's right, isn't it?

9 A. At that moment we were certain where the bullet came from and

10 where the bullet would come from in a conflict and war of that kind.

11 Q. Yes.

12 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

13 questions, but -- apparently Mr. Petkovic doesn't either, Your Honour. So

14 the good news is we've finished.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May I ask one more

16 question?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have one?

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, only one.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead quickly then.

20 Further cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

21 Q. [Interpretation] You asked a hypothetical question. Could

22 somebody shoot at their own men, the HVO shoot at their own soldiers? Do

23 you know that the Mujahedins considered the Muslims who imbibed alcohol

24 were worthless and they should be killed?

25 A. We didn't know of any cases like that in Mostar.

Page 13997

1 Q. Sir, just a moment --

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: One question.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I didn't say Mostar. I said, do you know that the Mujahedin --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I'm going to ask you a

8 question which has nothing to do with what Mr. Praljak was asking you. We

9 know that the mortar fired while you were near -- while you were in hiding

10 near the house. Now, you said [indiscernible] was there? I'm going to

11 put a hypothetical to you. There was either another mortar shell that

12 fell in the vicinity and that shrapnel dispersed and that one of these

13 fragments, as you said, pierced the cabin of the truck at about 20

14 centimetres from the roof and grazed your colleague. What do you think

15 about that hypothesis? Would that be quite unrealistic because you didn't

16 hear any noise and you don't think that that could have been the result of

17 a mortar being fired and falling and fragmenting?

18 A. Well, first of all, that is not possible. It is not possible that

19 the shrapnel -- that it was shrapnel, because the entry hole, well, you

20 know -- you can tell what an entry hole looks like from a bullet and what

21 a shrapnel looks like. And before that there were three shots, individual

22 shots, several seconds apart, one after another until that final shot hit

23 my colleague in the head. So there wasn't an explosion. You couldn't

24 hear an explosion or anything like that.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I just wanted to

Page 13998

1 test that hypothesis.

2 Madam Gillett.

3 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour. I have one question, and I

4 also need to remind myself to request an in-court number for the

5 photograph that I showed the witness at the end of my examination-in-chief

6 on which he marked a circle. So lest I not forget that after the

7 question, I mention it now.

8 Yes, quite. If the witness could be re-shown the photograph in

9 order to initial it first, because I also -- and thank you for that

10 reminder. I didn't remember that he hadn't signed it either.

11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be then IC number 399.

13 MS. GILLETT: Moving to my question as far as re-examination is

14 concerned, it actually arises from Mr. Praljak's cross-examination at line

15 92.16. A question was asked by Mr. Praljak to which the witness was

16 unable to respond, Your Honour having to intervene in order to slow

17 proceedings somewhat, but it is nonetheless a question that merits an

18 answer.

19 Re-examination by Ms. Gillett:

20 Q. I will repeat what you were asked by Mr. Praljak at line 92.16.

21 What was said was: "Were you a soldier? Did you go up on duty when you

22 can claim with such certainty that it was only the main road that was

23 used, and at night? Do you know about that, or are those your

24 assumptions?"

25 Now, Witness, that is begging for an answer as to how you came to

Page 13999

1 know with such certainty these events or indeed whether they were your

2 assumptions.

3 A. Well, it's like this: During the war I took that -- I never took

4 that road, not once, and I wasn't a soldier, nor was I a member of any

5 military organisation. Throughout the conflict, of course.

6 The second point is this: The Mostar-Bijelo Polje road from

7 Sutina to down here, Ina, was, as the crow flies, just 150 metres away

8 from the HVO positions. So movement along that road was impossible during

9 the day. Nothing could pass by that way during the day, only at night.

10 At night, if you didn't have any lights or anything like that, you might

11 be able to pass that way.

12 MS. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Sir, that concludes your testimony. Thank you on behalf of my

15 colleagues and myself for coming to The Hague to testify having been

16 called by the Prosecution. We wish you every success in that noble

17 occupation that you have.

18 Tomorrow, Mr. Mundis, we have one witness. Don't give us his

19 name.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, we have Witness A

21 appearing tomorrow and continuing into Wednesday of this week, followed by

22 the one remaining who is scheduled for Thursday. We have no further

23 changes for this week's schedule.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I'd like

25 to thank everybody, and we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00, except

Page 14000

1 for the witness, of course.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day

5 of February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.