1 Tuesday, 20 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused enter court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

8 This is case IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to everybody, the

10 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and also the witness.

11 I'm now going to give the floor to the registrar for three IC

12 numbers.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Several parties have submitted documents to be

14 tendered through witness Miro Salcin. The list submitted by the OTP shall

15 be given Exhibit number IC 430. The list submitted by 3D shall be given

16 Exhibit number IC 341, and the list submitted by 4D shall be given Exhibit

17 number IC 342. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very well. The

19 Defence has thus one hour in total, and I'm giving the floor to the first

20 Defence team who will have 10 minutes unless they ceded their time to

21 another team.

22 Who is going to start?

23 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 We have no questions for this witness. We have given our time to the

25 Stojic Defence.

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have given our time to

2 Mr. Prlic.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President -- or good afternoon,

4 Mr. President; good afternoon, Your Honours.

5 WITNESS: NERMIN MALOVIC [Resumed]

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

8 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Let's me begin by asking you, when you were

9 being proofed by Ms. Gillett, did you need the assistance of a language

10 assistant?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So I take it that you were speaking English back and forth?

13 A. [In English] That's correct.

14 Q. Okay. All right. Good. And perhaps you can switch into English

15 and you need not worry about waiting for the translation so we can go much

16 quicker.

17 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, sorry to interrupt, but this matter was

18 discussed in proofing, and albeit that this witness is comfortable enough

19 in proofing to discuss matters in English, it is critical that when he's

20 under oath in court he understands word or word what is being asked of him

21 and is able to give precise answers in his own language. He has never had

22 any formal training in English. He is self-taught, and it is his right to

23 choose to hear in his native language.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I just wanted to recall, Mr. Karnavas, that some

25 of us can follow the English directly. But the translation is

1 nevertheless necessary for B/C/S and French, and if we do it with

2 translation it is the danger of running away, to the detriment of our poor

3 interpreters, increases. So I don't think it would be a great gain in

4 time, but I appreciate your effort to that effect.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. Thank you. Very well.

6 Q. Let -- but let me just stick with that -- that issue. As I

7 understand it, in 1994 you worked as a language assistant for UNPROFOR; is

8 that correct?

9 A. [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And while you were working for UNPROFOR in 1994 as a language

11 assistant, at the same time you were still attached to the ABiH?

12 A. That is correct too.

13 Q. And would it be fair to say -- okay. Would it be fair to say that

14 your first and foremost employer at the time or your allegiance to, let me

15 put it that way, would have been the ABiH?

16 A. I tried to perform all my duties honourably, professionally, and

17 as well as I possibly could no matter whom my employer was.

18 Q. Okay. But that wasn't -- that wasn't the question I posed, you

19 see. So if we're going to let you listen to the B/C/S translation, and we

20 have some marvelous translators here, they're superb, and they make sure

21 my questions are translated precisely. If I can get a precise answer from

22 that -- let me give you the reasons why I'm asking this question. You're

23 working -- you are attached or you are a member of the army of BiH at the

24 same time you're employed by the United Nations. So the question that's

25 begged is: Are you giving information that you learn from UN meetings to

1 the ABiH?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. Very well. Now, staying again with the language

4 translation issue, as I understand it, when you volunteered and later

5 was mobilised with the ABiH, at the same time there were times at least

6 when you were also employed by various news organisations; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Okay. So again the question that's begged to be answered is if

10 you are a soldier, albeit not with a weapon but with a camera, how is it

11 that at the same time you're employed by the news agencies? Because this

12 is a rather delicate and sensitive matter, is it not?

13 A. Yes. If you give me a couple of minutes, I could explain this

14 more precisely. Very well. I was indeed a member of the army of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina, and as I emphasised yesterday, I was not involved

16 directly in war-related activities, in combat activities. I also

17 emphasised yesterday that even as a photographer I was not allowed to

18 follow the combat activities of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That

19 very fact tells you that I had enough spare time that I spent for the most

20 part on the premises of the press service of the army of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina.

22 In the agreement with the competent superiors, they gave me

23 authorisation that whenever foreign reporters come to our municipality I

24 would be allowed to work for them, of course with the go-ahead of my

25 superiors, and that indeed happened that way more than once. I worked

1 once for the BBC team, Roger [as interpreted] Bowen. I worked for Maggie

2 O'Kane.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the counsel who is

4 asking you questions is using the word "employee," you were employed, and

5 we here on the Bench are legal experts, lawyers. In our minds "employee"

6 means a person who is being paid. Did you receive money from news

7 agencies and those you worked for, including the United Nations, or did

8 the army ask you to help and assist the foreigners as a language assistant

9 working from B/C/S to English and vice versa, or were you paid by the

10 UNPROFOR and the news agencies? So these are two alternatives. Either

11 the ABH asked you to perform certain services for international

12 organisations and the news agencies, or you were paid by the latter.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not paid. I was officially

14 employed, hired by the news agency. There were no vacancies that I could

15 apply for, and there is no paper that confirms my work for them as a

16 member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So with those news

18 agencies, it was the ABiH who told you go ahead and work for them, but

19 under oath you also say that you were never paid for that work, not by the

20 media.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Officially, no. There were some

22 perks such as free telephone calls to my family abroad, and on one

23 occasion I have to stress that Ms. Maggie O'Kane paid for me, if I

24 remember correctly, 30 German marks for three days of work, and that's

25 only because she insisted. I worked for several days.

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. And what about Jeremy Bowen? Because I believe you said earlier

3 you said a Roger Bowen but we're talking about Jeremy Bowen?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he pay you?

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. What about for the photographers that you took? Because as a

8 freelancer -- obviously one of the things freelancers do is they try to

9 sell their work to various newspapers. Did you try to sell your

10 photographs?

11 A. Yes, I tried to sell them but without success.

12 Q. Okay. And that was because by the time they -- you were able to

13 get them out of the country the material was, for lack of a better word,

14 dated, old?

15 A. Well, I did not get that material out of the country ever. If you

16 remember, I spoke yesterday about my work with Mrs. Maggie O'Kane. I

17 tried to forward that material to Sarajevo on her behalf, but there was a

18 blackout in Sarajevo and it couldn't be done.

19 Q. And one last question on this matter. What about when you were

20 working for UNPROFOR? Were you getting a salary there?

21 A. The situation with them was different.

22 Q. It's a -- it calls for a yes or no.

23 A. There was an official test.

24 Q. Okay. Super. All right. Now, let me move on to something else.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Apparently the transcript doesn't reflect that the

1 gentleman indicated yes, that he was getting paid.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.

3 Witness, our transcript does not reflect what you said. Did

4 UNPROFOR pay you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I will repeat. I was paid by

6 the UNPROFOR.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how much per day did you

9 receive?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't recall. I think at

11 that time it was a monthly salary, not a per diem, and I think that in

12 that period we were paid around 400 to 500 German marks per month.

13 MR. KARNAVAS:

14 Q. All right. Let me move on to something else now. While you were

15 working with these -- these foreign journalists, were you able to take

16 them anywhere they wanted to go or did you have to get pre-clearance from

17 your superiors at the ABiH as to what you could actually show them?

18 A. I worked sometimes as a link, as liaison between foreign reporters

19 and representatives of the army. If foreign reporters expressed the wish

20 to visit some area, I could not give them that approval. I had to convey

21 their wishes to superior officers and tell them what the reporters were

22 seeking. Depending on the situation, the qualified people decided whether

23 and to which demarcation lines the foreign reporters could go, and I never

24 went alone with them. We always had escorts.

25 Q. Okay. So in other words, aside from assisting these reporters,

1 you are also informing the authorities of ABiH where -- where these --

2 these reporters, these journalists wanted to go and what they wanted to

3 see, and of course the ABiH through you was able to also, to some extent,

4 curtail or decide what, if anything, these reporters would actually see

5 versus what was actually out there for them to see and to report.

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. Okay. Now, from reading your statement it indicates - I'm going

8 to skip ahead a little bit - that -- at one point you talk about the

9 Jablanica Museum and that there were Muslim refugees there and that there

10 were Croat refugees as well; correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct, with the proviso that that paragraph - I

12 believe it's 17 - does not relate to the same period as the previous

13 paragraphs.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. It relates to a period of several months after August, 1993.

16 Q. All right. Well, thank you for pointing that out, and that

17 clarifies that point, but I notice in your statement, I notice that the

18 Prosecution conveniently omitted to bring this out on direct examination,

19 that at least in your statement you indicate that the Muslim refugees were

20 placed in the cinema hall where they had comfortable chairs and the floor

21 was carpeted versus the Croat refugees where they were placed in the

22 exhibition hall where it was empty and the floor was covered with granite

23 tiles; is that correct? That's in paragraph 17.

24 A. Yes, that's correct. But if you give me a minute, I can clarify

25 that too.

1 Q. I'm not interested in clarification. I just want to point out

2 that this is what you indicated here.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: You know, if Mr. Scott wishes to object, he can go

4 ahead and object. He doesn't need to assist his colleague.

5 Q. Now, in -- on paragraph 17 you also mention about --

6 MS. GILLETT: I'm sorry to interrupt but there was no such

7 interchange between Mr. Scott and myself, but you should be allowing the

8 witness to answer the question if you've put it.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: You can do that on redirect, madam. You had a

10 responsibility to bring this out on direct examination, and you chose not

11 to.

12 MR. SCOTT: You didn't have such requirement or duty at all.

13 Your Honour, this is absurd. It's a waste of time. If this is

14 the best cross-examine use -- use of cross-examination time that counsel

15 has, we're wasting time. It is -- it is not a Defence to any charge in

16 this case. Is it a defence to any charge in this case how -- where the

17 Croat refugees were kept in Jablanica? The answer is no, and we're

18 wasting time and that is an unfair attack on my colleague, and I for one

19 am not going to sit here and allow it to happen.

20 MR. KARNAVAS:

21 Q. In the same paragraph, sir, you talk about -- in the same

22 paragraph, sir --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas. I think that you

24 did not have the intention to attack whoever, but you are asking the

25 witness whether it's correct that the Muslim refugees were in a more

1 comfortable area that was carpeted, whereas the Croat refugees were

2 sitting on granite tiles, and the witness answered, "yes, but I can

3 explain." So if you're asking that question, that means you have some

4 sort of idea. He wants to shed some light on it. Why not --

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't think we need to shed that much light on

6 it. I think what is clear is that one set of refugees are given the

7 carpet and comfortable treatment versus the other refugees of another

8 ethnicity or national are given a different treatment.

9 MR. SCOTT: And the relevance of that is?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: You will see.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You see, there is both granite

12 and carpet in this Tribunal, and I don't think that either area in itself

13 constitutes discrimination.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Was that -- Mr. President. Mr. President, why

15 didn't they put them together in the same place? Why didn't they mix

16 them? Why did they separate them? Why give one preferential treatment

17 over the others? And in the statement, we also note -- notice that the

18 Croats were guarded -- were guarded. The Muslims were not guarded, the

19 Croats were guarded. That's my next question.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you please explain,

21 Witness, why was this difference made between Croats and Muslims? You

22 were there. Could you indicate the reason?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried 10 minutes ago.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I thought. Please

25 give us the reason.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslim refugees who were placed

2 in the movie theatre had arrived to the municipality of Jablanica in the

3 summer of 1993. At that time, the most appropriate way, in the eyes of

4 the authorities - whether civilian or military, I don't know - of

5 accommodating those refugees was to provide them with the most comfortable

6 area, if you can call gyms and movie theatres comfortable. So all the

7 refugees that were flowing in from various areas of Herzegovina were

8 placed in the movie theatre of the Museum Jablanica, in the gym of the

9 primary school, and similar premises on the territory of Jablanica

10 municipality.

11 The Croat refugees that I mentioned in my statement were refugees

12 who had arrived in Jablanica or had been brought to Jablanica several

13 months after the Muslim refugees. As a result, the places of

14 accommodation available were getting more and more crowded, and the new

15 refugees had to be placed somewhere else.

16 Why the separation? There was a war going on, gentlemen, and you

17 could not expect the refugees that had been expelled by HVO soldiers from

18 their homes and the refugees, on the other hand, who had come from their

19 villages on the ABH territory who were deprived of all their possessions,

20 you could not expect these two groups to be placed together. I suppose

21 that it was the most appropriate thing to place those refugees in the

22 museum, and I believe the only available place at that time was the one

23 that they were put in, and the guards at the entrance, as I was informed

24 at the time, were there to protect those Croat refugees from possible

25 reactions by civilians or anyone else.

1 The purpose was to place them in a safe place and to protect them

2 as much as possible.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: This is a good example why we don't give witnesses

4 time to explain because when I have limited time for cross-examination -

5 and I can't do a proper cross-examination because of time limitations

6 which are unrealistic - we cannot have these sorts of explanations.

7 Q. But getting to this explanation, I noticed that when it comes to

8 Muslim refugees --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute, counsel. There

10 is no need to exaggerate.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not exaggerating, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You attacked -- you are

13 referring to problems of discrimination. The witness answers you giving

14 an explanation. It was you who raised the problem. Let the witness

15 answer. And as the witness does not support your theory, you launch

16 yourself into another argument saying --

17 MR. KARNAVAS: On the contrary. Mr. President, with all due

18 respect --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- here is the best example that

20 we wasted time.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: With all due respect, if you want to ask the

22 explanation you can ask it on your own time. That's the whole point.

23 That's why I'm trying to limit myself. If the Prosecution asked it, it's

24 their time. We're here dividing each other's time. My time is not taken

25 off of your time.

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Karnavas, the questions of the Judges go on

2 the Judges' time.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Exactly.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But it is like you -- you don't have to complain.

5 This is our time.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: And that's why I say, if you want the explanation,

7 that's right. I don't want to -- I don't want it, not because it goes

8 contrary to my theory; I don't have time.

9 Q. Now, Witness, I noticed that when you talk about Muslim witnesses,

10 Muslim refugees, they get expelled. But Croat refugees, they're the ones

11 that just leave. Now, is that -- did I hear you correctly? Is that your

12 position?

13 A. No, that's not true.

14 Q. Were they expelled?

15 A. And I can explain that too.

16 Q. No, no, no. Were the Croat refugees expelled? Yes or no. To

17 your theory, because I saw your answer. It's on the transcript. We have

18 the transcript. When you talked about Muslim refugees, they were

19 expelled. When you talked about the Croat refugees, they left their

20 places. I didn't hear anything about being expelled, being driven out.

21 Are you making a distinction? Yes, no, I don't know?

22 A. Right. I'm going to tell you the way I see it and according to

23 the information I got. Muslim refugees told me that they had been

24 expelled, and I know that Croat refugees had arrived in Jablanica as a

25 result of combat activities in the territory of Jablanica municipality or

1 more precisely Doljani village. Those civilians simply stayed behind

2 after the HVO soldiers ran into the mountains. The army took

3 responsibility for those civilians, brought them to Jablanica, and placed

4 them on the premises of the Museum, and you can interpret that anyway you

5 see fit.

6 Q. I just want to make sure we have your explanation here. Now, I

7 just want to touch on two other areas very quickly. Was -- are you

8 familiar with a decree that was passed regarding the control of

9 information?

10 A. You mean during the trial?

11 Q. No. If you can look at -- if we can pull up 1D 01215 you can look

12 at it. It should be on the screen. This was a decree regarding carrying

13 out control of information during a state of war. Were you familiar with

14 this at all, sir?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Very well. Anyway, we'll leave it at that. Now, one other

17 matter. Were -- when Muslim refugees were arriving in Jablanica, were

18 they put into Croat homes to share the homes with the Croats? Yes, no, I

19 don't know.

20 A. I didn't see that, so I don't know.

21 Q. Okay. You didn't -- you didn't see any of that. All right. Very

22 well.

23 A. No, I didn't see it.

24 Q. Okay. Now, if we could pull up 1D 01216. Without mentioning the

25 name of the individual who provided this document which we received from

1 the Prosecution, if we turn over to page 5. And you can read the English,

2 so you're not handicapped at all.

3 According to this individual who is from Jablanica, he indicates

4 that apparently the president service of the 44th Brigade was quite active

5 in -- in sort of dispensing information which might be called propaganda.

6 Not in the sense of propaganda as advertising but sort of in a negative

7 sense. Would you agree or disagree with that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And so -- and now you worked for the press services of the

10 44th Brigade; correct?

11 A. Yes, as a photographer.

12 Q. Well, you were -- you also worked accompanying journalists, and as

13 you've indicated, you were the go-between and in a sense the journalists

14 were able -- the ABiH were able to censor what the journalists were able

15 to see and do as a result of you shadowing them as their interpreter;

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, but you yourself said that I was there as an interpreter, and

18 I behaved like an interpreter. I didn't make any decisions.

19 Q. I'm not suggesting you made any decisions at an all. Somebody

20 else made the decisions. But what I'm trying to point out to the

21 honourable members of our Tribunal is that these foreign journalists are

22 seeing what the ABiH wants to see at the exclusion of all the information

23 that's out there, that some of it might portray the ABiH in a negative

24 point or it might be more favourable to the Croats. That's what I'm

25 trying to suggest. And you acted as a go-between, albeit you had nothing

1 to do with that. Would that be fair?

2 A. In part. I know the situation, and I know a situation in which

3 the foreign journalist mentioned yesterday, Eileen, asked my superiors to

4 visit the separation lines, and she wasn't given permission to do so for

5 three days because it was too dangerous. It was only on the third day

6 that she was granted permission and then I accompanied her and I think

7 there were two others, too, two other BiH army members. We accompanied

8 her up to a part of the front line where at that point in time there were

9 no combat activities going on.

10 Q. Well, let me be concrete here, or somewhat concrete. When you get

11 to paragraph 17 in your statement you talk about -- that there was a gaol

12 in the basement of the -- of the museum that you had no access to;

13 correct?

14 A. As far as --

15 Q. You did not -- you did not have access.

16 A. -- I seem to remember, I said that I think there was --

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. -- one.

19 Q. You say here and I quote: "There was a gaol in the basement but I

20 was never allowed in there."

21 A. [In English] Okay.

22 Q. Okay. Now, do you know who was in that gaol?

23 A. [Interpretation] I don't know because I was never in it.

24 Q. Okay. Well, you say, "I was never allowed." There's a

25 difference. One is never taking the opportunity to go visit. Another one

1 is not being permitted to visit.

2 Now, did any of the foreign journalists, for instance, ask to see

3 where Croat prisoners of war were being held?

4 A. As far as I know, no, because at least the people I worked with

5 did not have any requests of that nature.

6 Q. Okay. All right. So --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, how much time has

8 been used up?

9 You have already overstepped your time by two minutes.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Very well.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You had 10 minutes, plus the 10

12 minutes given to you, so you have exceeded by two minutes.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. I understand.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would nevertheless ask a question to you.

15 Would you -- would you kindly indicate the source of this document? It's

16 a statement by Mr. Zelenika. It is not signed, and --

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. As you can see, Your Honour -- Your Honour,

18 there is a number at the very top, L010 --

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. Yes, I see that.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. And that would denote, as far as I

21 understand, a document that we received from -- from the OTP. And I'm

22 told that I have five minutes from the Praljak Defence team.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. I'm sure the OTP will give -- will answer

24 my question.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: But, yeah. But anyway, this is a document that

1 they have.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay.

3 MR. KARNAVAS:

4 Q. Now, just very briefly because I've just about finished with what

5 I need to accomplish. In this document it talks about the -- the press

6 service of the 44th Brigade characterising the HVO as pro-Ustasha,

7 pro-fascist; is that correct? Did you hear that or witness it?

8 A. I can't remember just now, but quite possibly there were such

9 comments.

10 Q. Or that the -- the Croat forces' intent was to erase traces of the

11 Muslims and that the Croats were generally characterised as Ustashas?

12 A. I don't think that any attempt was being made of characterising

13 the Croats in general terms as Ustashas, only their extremist parts or the

14 extremist members of the Croatian Defence Council who worked and did the

15 kinds of things that we were all witnesses of.

16 Q. Now, just to -- just to -- to -- staying with this document, it

17 says here the CTV, okay, and earlier it says CTV Jablanica, that was the

18 television station that was over there - correct? - operating at the

19 time.

20 A. Cable television, yes.

21 Q. Cable television. It says here on page 5 the CTV programme, or

22 the information provided by the press service of the 44th Brigade of the

23 Muslim army in Jablanica was conceived in such a way to provoke hatred

24 against the Croats among even the most well-meaning Muslims. "Since

25 Muslims were already in Croat apartments it was impossible to sit together

1 in the evening and watch the local news, the local television news

2 programmes."

3 Now, is that correct?

4 A. Well, that is how this man sees it. It's his perception of the

5 overall situation, and I really can't remember all the reports that came

6 out by cable television, and I couldn't follow that because I had other

7 obligations to attend to.

8 Q. Okay. But let's take it step-by-step. In this little part that I

9 read, it shows that -- that at least Muslims, and I would suspect that

10 they were refugees, were sharing apartments with Croats. In other words,

11 families would move in with families.

12 Now you were in Jablanica. Are you going to tell me -- are you

13 going to sit here and tell me that you were totally unaware of that?

14 A. Possibly didn't know about that, because you must realise, sir,

15 that -- let me remind you of my statement, that in 1992 I returned to

16 Jablanica, so I couldn't know who was living where, who was -- belonged to

17 what ethnic group and facts of that nature. I just didn't have that

18 information.

19 Q. You could glean that information, sir, especially someone who is

20 in the press, albeit it with a camera, but nonetheless you're hanging

21 around journalists, and I have some experience in that, but, you know,

22 you're going to get information. So you mean to tell me, from even being

23 in Jablanica, you didn't hear any rumours of refugees being moved into

24 apartments with Croats, especially since the space, the living space, was

25 very limited and people had to make do?

1 A. Well, I assume that things like that went on, too, but quite

2 simply I'm saying that I didn't know about individual cases whereby Muslim

3 refugees were brought or, as you say, placed in Croat-owned flats and that

4 they lived together with Croatian families. At that time I wasn't

5 interested in things like that. And the journalists who came didn't ask

6 questions like that. So quite simply you're asking me about something

7 that I wasn't focusing on at the time. It was not of interest to me at

8 that time. So I must say that I don't know.

9 Q. Yeah. One final question. CTV or Cable TV, was that controlled

10 by or was it -- did it work or associate itself with the 44th Brigade, or

11 was that totally independent? In other words, you know, did the 44th

12 Brigade control or be associated with CTV to get its messages, its

13 propaganda, its spin out?

14 A. Cable television was staffed by people who had worked in that

15 television station before the conflict, and I know that the press service

16 of the BH army at that time, my colleagues, prepared reports which were

17 broadcast every evening over cable television.

18 Q. Okay. So in other words, material that was prepared by the press

19 service of the 44th Brigade would be broadcasted over CTV Jablanica?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Yeah. And finally, I guess CTV, cable TV Jablanica, didn't have

22 the right, the authority or the capability to select what material from

23 ABiH would be put on the air and what would be excluded?

24 A. Whether they had that capability or not, I'm not quite sure. I

25 think that there was an agreement between the representatives of the

1 capable television network and members of the press service of the BH

2 army.

3 Q. But CTV did not censor the material. I guess that's my -- that's

4 what I'm trying to drive at.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: And that's -- and hence the reason, Your Honours,

6 why I introduced the previous document, the decree which unfortunately the

7 gentleman was not familiar with.

8 A. Well, that's what I tried to explain. The members of the press

9 service did prepare video material which physically then they would take,

10 they would take the video cassette to the offices of CTV and that's where

11 this was broadcast from.

12 Now, whether there was any censorship or not I really don't know.

13 I don't think so.

14 Q. Very well.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: And again, Your Honours, just for your own -- for

16 later on, own purposes, at 1D 01215, I believe Article 4 speaks to that so

17 just make a reference to it for future purposes and I'm sure it will come

18 up again.

19 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate you coming here to give

20 your testimony.

21 Thank you, Your Honours?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next counsel.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Thank you,

24 Your Honour. I'd like to ask the usher's assistance in handing this

25 binder to the witness to facilitate our work.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Nozica, tell me how much

2 time you need.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have my 10 minutes,

4 and I have been given 10 minutes from the Coric Defence, and I think that

5 will be sufficient for me to conclude my cross-examination within the

6 time.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. You don't have to look at

9 the documents. You can close the folder for the time being. I'd like to

10 follow on from what my colleague was asking you and ask you first of all

11 whether you prepared the photographs and whether your photographs were

12 published with the reports that came out from your unit on local

13 television. Were they broadcast on local television? Did you provide

14 them with your photographs and were they published, broadcast?

15 A. I can't remember that there were such situations because whenever

16 we went out together on an assignment given to us by our superiors I went

17 and my -- and the cameraman went to make video footage, and the journalist

18 went doing his part of the job. So there was no need for the photographs

19 to be incorporated into the reports that were broadcast over cable

20 television at that time.

21 Q. So what you want to say is that what appeared on that local

22 television station were video -- was video material that was filmed

23 simultaneously with you photographing certain events, because you say, "We

24 usually went together."

25 A. Yes. That was frequently the case but not always.

1 Q. Can you tell me, please, on that critical day, and I'm talking

2 about the 28th of August, because you referred to that during the

3 examination-in-chief mostly, you said in the morning you heard that

4 something had happened in Grabovica, and on your own initiative it you

5 took your camera and went to photograph what was going on; is that right?

6 Together with the journalist Eileen.

7 A. Yes, that's quite correct.

8 Q. What was your motive for going? Did you in fact want to take

9 photographs together with her which you might be able to sell on to other

10 news agencies for money later?

11 A. First of all, at that point in time, as somebody whose work was

12 photography, I wanted to go and document, take photographs of what was

13 happening, to photograph people who had been released from prison in this

14 specific case. And of course I seized the opportunity and asked my

15 colleague, the lady, to go with me because I knew that she as a foreign

16 national and as a journalist had the possibility of taking all that

17 material from Jablanica to Sarajevo and to enable the world to see what

18 was happening. And one of the results of this activity was the videotape

19 that we were shown yesterday.

20 As a member of the BH army, I was not in a position to leave

21 Jablanica that quickly and to leave it without being granted permission,

22 which meant that the news agencies wouldn't be interested in any material

23 that was 10 or 15 days old.

24 Q. Can I ask you something? When the Prosecution asked you questions

25 then your explanations at length were very welcome, but when I'm asking

1 you questions, without meaning to be rude and interrupting you, may I ask

2 you to give me brief answers. So I don't want to hamper Their Honours

3 from asking questions or anything like that, but if I need explanations,

4 I'll ask them -- I'll ask for them. So please try and adhere to that.

5 Now, you say that you would -- if you wanted to be granted

6 permission from your command you would have to go there and ask for

7 permission. That would take a lot of time. Whereas in the morning you

8 didn't report to anybody in the command and it was your command and

9 headquarters that would be most interested to have the photographs that

10 you were going to take. You were given this assignment only in the

11 afternoon, and then you went again. So in the morning you went on your

12 own initiative.

13 You say you wanted to document. To document for whom? For the BH

14 army, for the authorities in Jablanica, or for your own personal database

15 and documentation? Who did you want to document this for?

16 A. It's like this: At that time I behaved like a photographer and as

17 somebody who wanted to document what was going on, what was happening.

18 Q. Bravo. Thank you. That's fine. Now, am I right in saying that

19 when photographs appear like this, photographs that are intended to be

20 sold on the foreign market, I was frequently the object of this kind of

21 work, but anyway, when you want to show photographs like this to the

22 world, do you as a rule choose, if I can say, the worst photographs,

23 because only that kind of photograph can be sold very well to other

24 countries? Is that the general principle when we're talking about war

25 photographs and the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

1 A. It is a general principle that newspaper photographs depict

2 action, particularly when there's a war and conflict, and, among others,

3 the worst photographs you can take. That too.

4 Q. On that day did you talk to the people you photographed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ask them for their names? For instance, the person that

7 you asked to strip, to take his clothes offer, did you talk to him? Did

8 you ask him where he had been, how long he had spent there, how much

9 weight he had lost? Did you ask him for that them or were you just

10 interested in taking the photograph of a very thin, emaciated man?

11 A. If you're referring to the man you saw -- we saw in the photograph

12 yesterday.

13 Q. I'm talking about the two or three that we saw yesterday when you

14 said that you asked them to strip to the waist.

15 A. I can't ask -- give you the same answer in all three cases. I

16 talked to some of the people that I photographed; others I did not.

17 Others I just photographed and some I talked to.

18 Q. Did you learn their names? Did you take down their names?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Can you tell me why not? Because I'm rather surprised by your

21 answer. You're sending out photographs to the world of people whom you

22 say were in concentration camps, and I apologise that I have to say this,

23 I'm not questioning that people did leave these centres or camps highly

24 emaciated; however, you and I both know that through -- in the whole of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina there were a lot of people who were thin and emaciated

1 because there was just not enough food in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you

2 agree with me?

3 A. Yes, there were a lot of thin people.

4 Q. Would that not have been a profession and moral obligation to ask

5 who the person was? And now it would help had us to establish what you

6 have improvised to a great extent when you say that some came a little

7 earlier when explaining why some people were thinner and some people were

8 not so thin. You said that some people were there for a longer or shorter

9 period of time, but if we had the names of these people then that would

10 have been a nice gesture towards these people. They would have felt more

11 dignified, and anybody checking out those photographs could establish who

12 the people were. So wouldn't it have been a good idea to ask them for

13 their names?

14 A. Well, possibly from your point of view, but it was not my

15 intention to conduct and investigation at all. All I did, and that was

16 just my job, to take photographs.

17 Q. And you took the kind of photographs that you thought you would be

18 able to sell to the world best?

19 A. Photographs that would represent the situation that I encountered

20 when I was there to take the photographs.

21 JUDGE PRANDLER: [Interpretation] A little slower, please.

22 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 Q. I apologise, sir. Can you tell me when approximately you had

24 learned that Muslim refugees arrived at the museum in Jablanica? You say

25 they had arrived from various areas of Herzegovina and you said it was in

1 the summer of 1993. They came first and they occupied this hall.

2 A. I believe those are the refugees who came that day, that summer.

3 Q. Yes. I'm trying to follow your logic. You said it was the 28th

4 of August, 1993. A moment ago you said to my colleague, Mr. Karnavas,

5 Muslim refugees referred to in paragraph 17 were described in retrospect

6 several months later.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then you say those Muslims had come earlier. And then they

9 occupied this movie theatre, whereas Croats arrived later. So they were

10 placed in the conditions that have been described.

11 Can you tell me whether you had any knowledge that there were

12 prisoners of war and possibly civilians in the prison in Jablanica? Did

13 your work help you to learn that?

14 A. I knew there were prisoners there, but I did not inquire who they

15 were. Nor did anyone ask me to.

16 Q. I am going through what you wanted to convince us of, that your

17 curiosity led you to go to Grabovica and see. Didn't your curiosity take

18 you elsewhere in Jablanica to see whether the prisoners in Jablanica were

19 perhaps in the same situation as the one you photographed elsewhere, even

20 if nobody asked you to? Weren't you curious?

21 A. Well, to go where I went and make photographs I didn't need any

22 sort of permission. But to go into a prison, you can only imagine the

23 kind of paperwork and authorisations I would have to obtain. So I did not

24 even try to get all the permits that would allow me to go inside. I just

25 didn't do that. I worked as a photographer.

1 Q. Photographer.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I can imagine the procedure, but did you try to ask anyone?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You didn't even try. That's something different. You did not

6 display any professional curiosity.

7 In hindsight does it seem as logical as it seemed then?

8 A. I didn't understand the question.

9 Q. Well, do you think the same way today? You say that you are a

10 freelance photographer, somebody who is supposed to help in establishing

11 the truth. Does it seem logical today that you were trying to establish

12 the truth what was going on with one ethnic group although there were

13 three of them living in your territory? Did you try to learn anything

14 more about the suffering of other people in that same area? You don't

15 have to answer. We can move on to something more specific, but I would

16 like to get something out of you, because you did go into a lot of things

17 that did not make part of your profession and your area of expertise. You

18 talked about how people behaved, how one could see from their appearance

19 that they had gone through a lot of suffering, and it does kind of fit

20 into propaganda.

21 I'm asking you from the 28th of August, 1993, until the end of the

22 war, did you ever photograph any refugees, prisoners, women, children,

23 Croats, or Serbs who were or had been in prisons held by the army of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Where?

2 A. In the museum in Jablanica.

3 Q. You photographed them? Whom?

4 A. The Croat refugees I mentioned in my statement and let me add that

5 I did not ask for permission. I went there on my own initiative and --

6 Q. Refugees or expellees?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm talking about prisoners.

9 A. In that case, no.

10 Q. Let us go through this binder to deal with some facts and dates

11 that you mentioned. 2D 00408, please. We have it all, and it will be

12 placed in e-court, but I would like you to have a look first.

13 I marked the whole document for you. It will be easier to review

14 that way. And the first page is -- that I'm interested in have been

15 translated into our language.

16 This is a document of the 44th Mountain Brigade; is that correct?

17 Municipal Defence Staff.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. From Jablanica, the 1st of September, 1993. Your copy is not so

20 good, but you have to take my word for it, it is legible. And it

21 says: "Please find attached a list of prisoners of war with all their

22 personal details, and they are in the collection centre at the museum in

23 Jablanica." Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can we just look at the number of these people? There were 50

1 prisoners -- 52 prisoners of war. Is this correct? It's confirmed by the

2 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was after the events of the 28th of

3 August, 1993.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you know that at the time when you were going to photograph

6 people who were coming from Mostar and Herzegovina, did you know that it

7 was an exchange, all for all?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No. Your army did not inform you? They did not inform you when

10 those HVO members were exchanged later so you could go and photograph

11 them?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let us look at another document. 2D 00410. Please, this is the

14 battalion of the military police of the 3rd Corps. You can see that it's

15 of the military police battalion, Jablanica company, 5th August, 1993.

16 A. My copy is bad.

17 Q. I will read slowly. If there is anything in dispute, we can go

18 into detail.

19 Please look at the ELMO. It is a bit clearer on the ELMO.

20 It says: "Subject: List of persons currently at the museum of

21 Jablanica and who were not HVO members." These are civilians.

22 A. Probably, yes.

23 Q. Look, on the 5th of August, 1993, they were already at the museum

24 in Jablanica, and you told us a moment ago that those Bosniaks, Muslims,

25 of the 28th of August, 1993, had come first to the museum. This document

1 tells us otherwise, and it's only logical, I must say, because we saw from

2 the previous list that those people were mainly from Doljani. It's

3 logical that they had arrived first.

4 Can we conclude -- and this is an army document about civilians.

5 Can we conclude that these 87 civilians were in the prison of the

6 Jablanica museum before the photographs you make? Does that follow from

7 these documents?

8 A. Yes, it follows.

9 Q. Another thing you said yesterday was that the place where --

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. I do not see the word "prison" here.

11 Maybe I have not looked correctly.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me to

13 proceed, you will see where it is written that there was a prison, but I

14 can clear it up with the witness if you allow me. Do you allow me?

15 Q. In this acronym SRZ, what does it mean?

16 A. I really don't know.

17 Q. You really don't know. Would it be logical that the last letter,

18 Z, means Zatvor, prison? Tell me, what was the name of that place where

19 the refugees were put up, as you say Croats who had a guard outside the

20 door? What was that place?

21 A. It was an exhibition hall that before the war served to exhibit

22 artefacts from the Second World War.

23 Q. Did you SRZ is not an exhibition hall certainly. Please, can you

24 tell me, what was the name of the area where the prisoners of war were?

25 It's in the centre of Jablanica.

1 A. What do you mean.

2 Q. What was the name of that prison where Croat prisoners of war were

3 placed?

4 A. First of all, I didn't know where the prisoner of war were. When

5 I came to the museum I saw a guard outside.

6 Q. Outside of what?

7 A. Outside the hall --

8 Q. And we're talking about two months after the August --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's not play with words.

10 Ms. Nozica, your time has expired by one minute and more.

11 He already said at the beginning that there were prisoners in

12 Jablanica who were guarded by the BH army. What is the purpose of

13 spending more time on it? I would allow it, but you are wasting time. It

14 seems completely useless to me.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I don't think it is devoid of

16 purpose, with all due respect. I just want to see if all the rest that

17 this witness told us is correct.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What rest? What -- what rest

19 are you referring to?

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] If you allow me just one more

21 document.

22 Q. Can you please look at 2D 00409. It's a list of children who were

23 taken from Doljani on the 28th of July, 1993, by the Muslim army. The

24 children were locked up in the museum in Jablanica-prison. This is a

25 document of the HVO of the 28th of August, 1993. Do we see that there are

1 59 children on the list?

2 A. Yes, yes, yes.

3 Q. Did you know about this?

4 A. I can't say that I did.

5 Q. Can we look at this list and see that in the left column there are

6 children born in 1990, 1992, and there's even one baby listed in

7 handwriting?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If we compare this to 2D 00410, we see that the largest number of

10 these children were in fact included in that list. That includes all the

11 civilians who were kept in Jablanica.

12 Does SRZ stand for a collection centre for prisoners of war?

13 A. I can't tell you that.

14 Q. Tell me, what was the name for the places where the army of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina held either incarcerated prisoners of war or civilians?

16 You were very frequently in the company of journalists. You possibly

17 visited such places. Tell me, what was the name of the army of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina for such places?

19 A. It was always called the museum. There were no special names,

20 detention centre or prison or whatever you are trying to insinuate.

21 Q. And the places where, as you say, the Muslims were locked up, you

22 called them concentration camps.

23 A. Yes, but I think that --

24 Q. I know you want to elaborate, but you don't know what the

25 conditions were like inside the premises of the museum where those people

1 were imprisoned.

2 A. But I didn't even say that it wasn't a concentration camp, if you

3 insist.

4 Q. So you would allow that this place where Croats were locked up was

5 also a concentration camp?

6 A. I simply don't want to go into it.

7 Q. My last question. Please, you said a moment ago you allow the

8 possibility that reason those places where Croats were imprisoned,

9 including prisoners of war, was a concentration camp.

10 A. Yes, that's a possibility.

11 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have concluded.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have used seven minutes more

13 than you actually had.

14 Mr. Praljak, as you have given -- registrar, please give us an

15 account.

16 Yes, you can go ahead, Mr. Praljak.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

18 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Malovic.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. I have just a few brief questions. Could the usher please take

22 these things to the ELMO and a small magnifying glass. It's a very small

23 map. I need you to look at something and mark it. While it's on the way,

24 I want to ask you this: Have you ever heard of Trusina, Trusina village

25 in Konjic?

1 A. I have heard, but I have no idea what it is.

2 Q. Please, very briefly. We have no time. Do you have any

3 information that after the activities of -- and actions of the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina 23 Croats were killed in Trusina village?

5 A. No, I really don't know that.

6 Q. So you never went to photograph there because you don't know

7 anything about it?

8 A. You just said it was Konjic municipality.

9 Q. But you said that --

10 A. Occasionally I went.

11 Q. Do you know that a foreign reporter had been to Trusina, filmed

12 something? Do you know whether it was ever published something --

13 published anywhere?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Did you hear about the crime in Doljani?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After the combat activities, when it was no longer dangerous for

18 you, when there was no risk of you losing your equipment and its secrets,

19 did you get permission to go there and film?

20 A. I did ask for permission, but I didn't get it.

21 Q. Do you know that a single foreign reporter did get that permission

22 and filmed what happened in Doljani?

23 A. I believe that in those few days after the return of the HVO to

24 Doljani nobody, no foreign reporter went there.

25 Q. Have you ever seen films or photographs from Doljani in your

1 life?

2 A. Yes, on Croatian television.

3 Q. We can repeat the same questions about Grabovica. You know about

4 Grabovica, what happened there. Have you been there? Has a foreign

5 reporter been there? Was it ever broadcast?

6 A. I've already answered all these questions.

7 Q. So you don't know. Nobody went or --

8 A. No, no, no. There was a foreign reporter in Grabovica. I took

9 her there. I was in Grabovica. Films were made, photographs were made

10 and sent on.

11 Q. Very well. Have you heard about Neretva 93 operation where a

12 large number of the officers of the BH army was in Jablanica or around

13 Jablanica?

14 A. I heard about that operation, but I cannot tell you anything more

15 about it. I just know something was going on, because such information

16 didn't go down to lower levels.

17 Q. Do you know Sefko Hodzic, at least as a name? It was a journalist

18 who was following that operation and then wrote a series of articles for

19 the Oslobodjenje newspaper.

20 A. I'm familiar with the name. It's possible that I even met with

21 him in Jablanica, but I really can't remember the details. I suppose that

22 we could have met, because as a journalist he could go. He had access to

23 the press service, but there were other people employed in the press

24 service who liaised with journalists who were not foreigners.

25 Q. Now, the local television, do you remember -- did you see on that

1 television station anything that happened in Trusina and the surrounding

2 villages, Konjic, Grabovica, Doljani? Anything? Did you see anything

3 broadcast on that local television station?

4 A. I saw that they rebroadcast some HTV footage by cable television.

5 Q. Look at that first photograph. It is one of your own photographs,

6 is it not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And it was taken where?

9 A. The location is Grabovica, more specifically the hydroelectric

10 power -- or, rather, hydro-electric dam at Grabovica.

11 Q. And you were told that the smoke we see there, the blaze we see

12 there, was caused by the incendiary bullets?

13 A. Yes. Anti-aircraft units firing this kind of bullet.

14 Q. Would you just sign the photograph and I'm ask for an I

15 contribution number. That's customary.

16 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour could I just inquire as to

17 relevance of this? If it's only tu quoque that's not a defence. There is

18 absolutely no relevance to any of this information. It's a complete waste

19 of time.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: [Microphone not turned on].

21 MR. SCOTT: Because it's irrelevant, yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: [Microphone not turned on].

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Why was it brought out yesterday by the

25 Prosecution. He should monitor his own lawyers. Today he's saying it's

1 irrelevant. Yesterday it was relevant.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Karnavas, that's not correct.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: That is the lead of the --

4 MR. SCOTT: [Microphone not turned on].

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott, please.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Testimony was elicited --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop, both of you. Stop there.

8 Mr. Praljak, I have the impression -- well, where's the relevance?

9 Ask your question so that we can understand, because for the moment I

10 don't understand where the relevance is and where you're going with your

11 questions.

12 Now, the Defence time has expired already, so finish off with a

13 general question so that he can answer and we can see where you're going,

14 where all this is leading.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. May we have a look at the next document, the map. It's very

17 simple. I want to establish how far this first place is away from the

18 front lines of the HVO. Turn the map round, please, in the proper way.

19 Take up the magnifying glasses, and I -- put Vrde as the first point,

20 Dreznica is number 2. Do you agree with me there or not?

21 A. Well, I can't agree or not because I really don't know where the

22 separation lines were and where HVO trenches were and where the BH army

23 was. I just don't know.

24 Q. You said they were released at Vrde, where -- that means where the

25 HVO ceased to be, which is the first red line.

1 A. Well, if you say so then I must take it as being so. I don't

2 know.

3 Q. And the second point is Dreznica, that's what it says. Do you see

4 that?

5 A. I see that.

6 Q. And 3 is Grabovica. Do you see that? Is that correct? Use the

7 magnifying glass. Take a closer look.

8 A. Well, you marked the area which is called Diva Grabovica which is

9 at a distance 5 kilometres away from the Grabovica hydroelectric power

10 plant, round the mountain bend going west towards mount Cvrsnica, and this

11 is a village. What you've marked is a village.

12 Q. I know that, sir. But tell me, from Dreznica to Grabovica, how

13 many kilometres is that?

14 A. I think it's about five kilometres give or take one kilometre, as

15 the crow flies. Perhaps less even. But you can see that and calculate it

16 from the map.

17 Q. Yes, you can use the map, but tell me, is there any visibility in

18 the depression from Grabovica towards the hills? When you were standing

19 there, can you see anything from those hills?

20 A. Well, not from the depression but from the place where the flames

21 were then I suppose you can, although I wasn't there.

22 Q. All right. We just sign the map, put your name to the map. This

23 can be calculated on the map, the number of kilometres.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I think we have accepted that witnesses sign

25 documents, maps, pictures on which they have marked something, but here

1 the witness did not mark anything. So it is for you to introduce this as

2 a means of evidence, but I see no reason at all here why the witness

3 should sign something just because he has looked at it.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't agree with your

5 observation in full. The IC number is a number given in court with

6 respect to exhibits that were presented and which are not already recorded

7 in collections of exhibits including e-court. That's the only way in

8 which when later on we come to read the transcript we know what the

9 witness looked at. Those of us who are reading or -- the transcript or

10 anybody else. And I think that this document can be given an IC number.

11 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I --

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I don't object to the IC number, nor do I take a

13 stand on admission. I only object to the signing, because there I really

14 see no reason whatsoever.

15 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, the Prosecution entirely agrees with

16 Your Honour's observation, and it's exactly why I was on my feet, although

17 I had some difficulty with the microphone.

18 There is no reason for the witness to sign this. He has

19 identified nothing on the map.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have an IC

21 number for the map without any signature or initials.

22 Mr. Registrar, an IC number for the map, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be given Exhibit number IC 433,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, you have exceeded

1 your time limit. Your time is up. What is it you would you like to ask?

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to

3 mark Grabovica, Dreznica, and Vrde, because he mentioned this. So he can

4 put numbers 1, 2, and 3 on the map.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, would you please mark

6 Grabovica, Vrde, and the third locality on the map.

7 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I understand that --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Gillett, it is I who do the

9 deciding. Sit down, please.

10 Witness, mark on the map Grabovica, where Grabovica is, which

11 Mr. Praljak would like you to do. Put a 1 for Grabovica, Dreznica number

12 2, and Vrde number 3. So put 1, 2, and 3 on the map, please, by those

13 places.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to place the

15 hydroelectric power plant of Grabovica, the Donja Grabovica village, or

16 Vrde Grabovica, because this is a large area and these are all different

17 things?

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, what do you want

19 marked? We're wasting time on a matter that has absolutely no interest to

20 us, but if you want him to mark the localities we're going to waste even

21 more time. So tell him what it is exactly you wish him to mark on the

22 map.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I'm going to stand and

24 defend my colleague. This is like showing someone a map of Bosnia and

25 said can you mark this -- put a circle around Sarajevo. Of course it's on

1 the map. Everyone can read it. It's on the map. Why does this witness

2 need to mark what's on the map? I'll agree that -- if someone shows me a

3 map, I will agree those -- where the towns are. I'll agree where Sarajevo

4 is. I'll agree where Mostar is. This is a complete waste of time. My

5 goodness.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. My last question. You said yesterday and I quote: "The situation

9 in Jablanica was changeable. It changed every day depending on the news,

10 depending on radio and television and the rumours spread." Is that what

11 you said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it then true and correct that by selecting the news and

14 information and deciding how much news you're going to put out you could

15 change the structure and method of thinking and therefore fan the flames

16 of war or reduce them?

17 A. Well, all televisions do that. HTV, Jablanica television, CTV,

18 and everything else.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's all.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any re-examination from the

21 Prosecution? But before that I see the Petkovic Defence on their feet.

22 The Defence time has already expired. It expired five minutes ago.

23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that every

24 Defence team has its own time, and the time of the Defence isn't added

25 together.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When I said that you have one

2 hour, that the Defence has one hour, it was up to you to divide that

3 time up amongst yourselves, and since you haven't done that, then I'm

4 going to ask the registrar to do the calculations of the times used. So

5 this is a problem that you have to deal with, and you have to decide.

6 Now, what is it? What relevant question do you wish to ask at this point,

7 counsel?

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just say that

9 each of my colleagues said quite precisely how much time they have and who

10 allotted what time to somebody else, and nobody said that the Petkovic

11 Defence allotted its time to anybody, and I do have relevant questions so

12 I would like to ask the Court's indulgence for me to be able to ask those

13 questions.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. Tell us, please, the

16 press centre you worked in, was it attached to the Municipal Staff of

17 Jablanica or was it attached to the command of the 44th Brigade, or

18 perhaps to something else? Perhaps it was independent, an independent

19 institution.

20 A. It was attached to the 44th Mountain Brigade.

21 Q. Tell me, please, about this press centre.

22 A. It was a press service.

23 Q. This press service, was it a part of a larger organisational

24 unit?

25 A. It was the press service of the 44th Mountain Brigade. That's

1 implied.

2 Q. What was the title and position of the person who was directly

3 superior to you? Who was your superior?

4 A. I don't know whether he was commander or commanding officer of the

5 press service of the 44th Mountain Brigade.

6 Q. Along the chain of command, who was above him?

7 A. I think above him was the commander of the 44th Mountain Brigade.

8 Q. Was there a service or a commander or a commanding officer who

9 would be responsible for morale, political issues? Did such a service

10 exist in that brigade?

11 A. Yes. Within the 44th Mountain Brigade there was such a thing, but

12 it was not possible to appoint a single person to do all of that. I

13 believe this area of work, which we referred to as propaganda, I think was

14 the job of the journalists of the 44th Mountain Brigade. People in the

15 press service had that responsibility. I suppose I did not do that kind

16 of work myself.

17 Q. That's precisely what I was interested in, issues of propaganda

18 were the responsibility of the people employed by the press service.

19 Tell me, at one point you said that you were not allowed to go to

20 the front line, and you were not able to film or photograph the combat

21 activities of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 A. That's correct. I was not allowed to take part in combat

23 activities, but I did go to defence lines when there were no such

24 activities.

25 Q. Tell me about the other journalists of the press service. Were

1 they able to report on the combat activities of the BH army?

2 A. They were able to report based on the information they received.

3 Q. Did they receive such information mainly from the officers of the

4 BH army who directly took part in such activities or coordinated them or

5 were involved in them in any way?

6 A. I suppose so. I can't say yes decisively.

7 Q. The work of journalists and reporters in war conditions is a very

8 large and interesting story, but can we agree that in the conditions of

9 war journalists are not really able to perform their job while meeting all

10 the requirements of their profession? They are not able to check on the

11 story of both sides, and there are, generally speaking, criteria they're

12 not able to meet. There were journalists in the HVO, the BH army, and it

13 goes for journalists working in every army.

14 A. Depending on the environment in which they work.

15 Q. The beginning of your answer was "yes," wasn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The cable television of Jablanica, whose property was it?

18 A. I really cannot speak about ownership because that cable

19 television was established before I came to Jablanica. So I don't know

20 whether it was in the hands of the municipality or maybe a private person,

21 or was it another version of ownership.

22 Q. Was it under the control of somebody who was close to the army of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or was it under the control of somebody close to the

24 HVO?

25 A. Under the control of somebody who was close to the BH army.

1 Q. If the HVO had wished to place a communique concerning combat

2 activities on that cable television, would they have equal opportunity to

3 do that as the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Could you be so kind as to specify the period about which you're

5 asking me that, because if you're talking about the period before the

6 war began between the BH army and the HVO, then it would have been

7 possible.

8 Q. Well, the reason we are here is the war between the HVO and the BH

9 army. So I'm always talking about the time of the conflict.

10 A. Of course. Of course there was no comparison between the HVO and

11 the journalists. There was no cooperation between them.

12 Q. Can we then agree that a cable television of Jablanica provided

13 information on war-related events from the viewpoint of one side to the

14 conflict, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. No, because I know that the cable television of Jablanica,

16 whenever it was able to, broadcast footage provided by other television

17 stations, the BBC, the Croatian television, et cetera.

18 Q. I'm talking about local sources of information, about the

19 authentic information from Jablanica.

20 A. From the local level, yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have to conclude,

22 Mrs. Nozica -- Mrs. Alaburic, I'm sorry. You have to conclude because

23 the Trial Chamber will otherwise cut you short.

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. General Praljak mentioned to you part of your testimony yesterday,

1 namely that the situation in Jablanica changed from day-to-day and that it

2 mostly depended on the news broadcast over the radio and television as

3 well as the rumours that circulated in town. Since I am not allowed to

4 question you any longer, I have just one more question.

5 Did you ever notice, did you ever learn in any way that the army

6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina used precisely this way to create a situation that

7 would then serve as a pretext or justification for some combat

8 activities?

9 A. I really cannot say that. If they did that, then --

10 Q. Did you notice that now in hindsight, 13 years later? Can you

11 testify that you never ever noticed or owned that the army of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina used these channels of information that you described

13 to us here in order to create a situation that would justify their

14 offensive actions?

15 A. I cannot testify to that at all, because I had no information as

16 to when their operations would take place so that I would be able to

17 compare.

18 Q. That's not what I'm asking. Did you ever observe --

19 A. No, I did not observe.

20 Q. You didn't. So you can confirm that it was always unbiased,

21 comprehensive?

22 A. I cannot confirm that either. You asked me if I noticed. I

23 didn't notice.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. That's it.

25 Any redirect?

1 MS. GILLETT: No, Your Honour, I don't. If I can just assist His

2 Honour Judge Trechsel in his query earlier about the source of the Defence

3 exhibit, 1D 01216. The source is the federal minister in Sarajevo and it

4 cam from the 5th of May, 1999. That's when it was seized.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And in what context was the statement made? Was

6 there any investigation by the ministry or ...

7 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, it was mission by the Office of the

8 Prosecutor that just seized the documents in that location. So further to

9 that, I'm afraid I'm unable to assist.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, sir. Your testimony

12 is hereby concluded. I thank you for having come to The Hague to make

13 your contribution by testifying to these events that took place in your

14 country. I wish you a safe trip home, and my best wishes for your

15 continued professional activity.

16 We are now going on a break of 20 minutes.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to move into

21 private [as interpreted] session.

22 [Closed session]

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20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

22 February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

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