Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14914

1 Thursday, 1 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please call

7 the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. It's

9 case IT-04-74-T, Prosecutor versus Prlic and others.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning to everybody, the

11 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused. Ladies and gentlemen, before

12 we continue our work, I would like, on behalf of the Chamber, to thank the

13 registrar, who is going to leave us to occupy another position in the

14 Registry, and I want to express to him all our gratitude for all the work

15 he has done in this case and wish him luck in his next job. And the Trial

16 Chamber wishes to note that he has extremely successfully and diligently

17 performed his job in our courtroom. With greatest affection and the best

18 wishes, we will say good-bye to him.

19 Yes, Mr. Murphy.

20 MR. MURPHY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. On behalf

21 of the Defence bar, associate us with what you said about Mr. Sabbah. He

22 has indeed, with great, good humour put up with this collection of Defence

23 lawyers and what a wonderful job. And we also extend our very best

24 wishes.

25 MR. SCOTT: And on behalf of the Prosecution, Mr. Sabbah has been,

Page 14915

1 as everyone has noted, a very valuable and extremely helpful member of the

2 courtroom. We thank him for his service and wish him the best.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much. It was an honour and

4 pleasure to work with all of you and I wish all of you the very best.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could we please move

7 into private session for a minute.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in public session.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Concerning time, I think

23 Mr. Ibrisimovic will use between three-quarters and an hour, and the Prlic

24 Defence will use the 45 minutes. They were approved. I don't know who

25 will start. The Coric Defence.

Page 14916


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

4 I think I will use most of my time, and if some time is left, Mr. Coric

5 asked for approval to ask some questions himself.

6 Concerning the problem yesterday with the 13 bundles of

7 documentation, we prepared copies today and created another bundle that

8 unites all the documents that the Prosecution used yesterday. I would

9 like both bundles to be given the witness if that's possible.

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I have many questions for

12 you, but I will ask them in a way that will allow you to answer with a

13 yes, no, I don't know, or I don't remember, so that we can go through all

14 of them. Do you hear me?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In his examination-in-chief, the Prosecution showed you a variety

17 of documents containing references to Berislav Pusic. Sometimes that name

18 was written in hand. When you were shown those documents you said

19 Berislav Pusic enjoyed authority, in your eyes, as an officer of the

20 military police; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we see in e-court P 01773. And for the Chamber, it's in

23 bundle 1. I would like to move immediately to page 2. It's a document of

24 the military police crime prevention service from the -- from April 1993.

25 The subject is the staffing organisation, and it says: "Berislav Pusic

Page 14917

1 and Goran Milicevic who have so far worked in this department are hereby

2 taken off the list. Milicevic is hereby nominated for commander of the

3 Military Police Platoon in Siroki Brijeg, and Berislav Pusic is nominated

4 to become an officer of control at the administration of the military

5 police or officer for cooperation and liaison with the opposite side in

6 connection with exchange of prisoners."

7 We see that they were taken off the list of employees of the

8 military police on the 1st of April, 1993.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Tomic, you are speaking too

10 fast for interpretation. Do try to speak a little more slowly.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I see there a mistake in the transcript. I said they were taken

13 off the list of the crime prevention service in the military police, not

14 the military police itself.

15 Tell me, sir, did you ever see this appointment of Berislav Pusic

16 to the position of control officer or liaison officer?

17 A. No, I haven't.

18 Q. Tell me, are you aware with the regulations of the military police

19 that govern the organisation and structure of the military police, its

20 purview, and the staffing arrangements within the military police?

21 A. What I best know is the prison system, and later I learned about

22 the system beyond that.

23 Q. When you say later, when later?

24 A. As one of the officials of the military police, I later became

25 familiar with the system of military police and continued to be there

Page 14918

1 until the end.

2 Q. Did you have any documents about the system and the structure, and

3 which documents?

4 A. In 1993, I only knew about the structure of the prison --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you also have to speak

6 a little more slowly, because you are giving interpreters a very hard

7 time. Yes, proceed, and please try to -- not to overlap with counsel.

8 Leave a brief pause between questions and answers.

9 Yes, proceed.

10 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. When you said that in 1992 you were only familiar with the

12 document governing the system of the prison, it's a document we've seen

13 before on several occasions. It was also called house rules. Is that the

14 one?

15 A. Instructions on work that describes the staffing structure, the

16 tasks and assignments of every employee in what you call house rules.

17 Q. Can we now see in e-court -- no, in fact I have another question.

18 Do you know the description of the control officer's job? What

19 does that imply?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Can we see in e-court P 03191. That is also in the first bundle.

22 It's a decision appointing Mr. Berislav Pusic head of service for the

23 exchange of detained and other persons, dated 5th July, 1993.

24 Tell me, do you know that Berislav Pusic was in this position as

25 of the 5th of July as written here?

Page 14919

1 A. I see the decision for the first time. And as for the fact, I

2 mentioned it, that it was in mid-July.

3 Q. I will now like to move on to another subject. Tell me, in your

4 examination-in-chief you said that after the establishment of the 5th

5 Battalion of the military police, which according to you happened in June

6 1993, work in prison continued as before, but from that time on you leaned

7 for logistics on the 5th Battalion. When you say "logistics," does that

8 mean that you procured coupons for fuel from the 5th Battalion, equipment

9 and badges for the security detail, et cetera?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can we now see in e-court, see a document from the second bundle,

12 P 02285. That's a document that was also shown to you before by the

13 Prosecution. It's an order for release from Heliodrom dated 11th May,

14 which specifies that the persons -- or person named is released after

15 Mr. Berislav Pusic and Valentin Coric interceded.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you were shown this document, you said that Valentin Coric

18 would be named in that -- in such a document only very rarely. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now I would like to come back to the 9th of May, 1993, to clarify

22 certain things with you. We've all read your diary, and we found some

23 interesting points there that were not mentioned during the

24 examination-in-chief. So tell me, is it true that when a large group of

25 people arrived at Heliodrom on that day, on the 9th of May, 1993, you were

Page 14920

1 informed that those people had, for their own safety and security, been

2 displaced from the combat zone, and also that those people left Heliodrom

3 within several days. That's written in your diary; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a little question from me.

6 The document that we see now before us concerning the release of Muhiba

7 Jugo, it says it was done at the intervention of Mr. Berko Pusic and

8 Mr. Valentin Coric. So on the 5th of July, 1993, he was head of service

9 for exchange of prisoners. So prior to his appointment to that post, what

10 position did Mr. Pusic occupy? In what capacity exactly did he intercede

11 for somebody to be released, do you know?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Upon the departure of the chief of

13 the criminal prevention service of the military police, Dragan Barbaric

14 was his name, I learnt that in his place Berislav Pusic arrived, and that

15 was when he was in this post within the administration of the military

16 police.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I should like to go back to the 5th of May now -- 9th of May,

20 sorry. But before I do so, you told me earlier on that you didn't see the

21 appointment papers of Mr. Berislav Pusic to occupy the post for control or

22 as a person in charge of exchange after the document dated the 1st of

23 April, which I showed you, from the crime prevention department of the

24 military police.

25 A. I wasn't that intimate, nor did I have an opportunity to see the

Page 14921

1 document, and the man wouldn't have shown it to me.

2 Q. Now to go back to the 9th of May. A large group of people

3 arrived. We've already said that. And we've said that you were told that

4 they had been transferred because of the war situation. We also said that

5 they were released within a few days.

6 Tell me now, please, when these people arrived, their registration

7 and their accommodation and taking in was dealt with -- by Ms. Biljana

8 Nikic, and Mr. Marko Bevanda from the office for displaced persons and

9 refugees; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. May we have on e-court now the following document -- now, if it

12 isn't on e-court, we have an example for the ELMO. It's in bundle 2. It

13 is 5D 2016, 5D 02016. And you can find it in your bundle, sir. It's the

14 first document in the second bundle. 5D -- it's the first document. It's

15 a document from the office for displaced persons and refugees, and it is a

16 list of individuals who are leaving Heliodrom. The list contains the

17 names of 578 persons, and the date refers to the period from the 14th of

18 May, 1993, to the 18th of May, 1993. The signature is that of Mr. Darinko

19 Tadic.

20 Tell us, please, do you know that Mr. Darinko Tadic was the head

21 of the office for displaced persons and refugees at that time?

22 A. Yes. That's what I said, but I forgot his first name. I hadn't

23 forgotten his surname.

24 Q. From this document we can see that this same office, the office

25 for displaced persons and refugees, in the period between the 14th to the

Page 14922

1 18th of May, 1993, registered 578 persons who left Heliodrom. Now, are

2 these people that we said had arrived at Heliodrom on the 9th of May, in

3 your opinion? Are those the same people?

4 A. It is my opinion that they are.

5 Q. Now, in view of everything we've said so far linked to these

6 people, and in view of the office dealing with these people, I conclude

7 that these people at Heliodrom had a sort of refugee status. Would you

8 agree with me there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, in response to questions from my learned friend Nozica linked

11 to the food of the detainees, you said that it was all prepared, the meals

12 were prepared in the central kitchen; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is an important document

15 that is being presented here by the Defence and which requires a precision

16 that the Judges would like to have. This document establishes that 578

17 individuals were leaving Heliodrom on the 18th of May, 1993, and it was

18 signed by the person responsible of the head of the office for refugees

19 and displaced persons. So we have this list of 578 persons, but there's a

20 little uncertitude with a number 576, because there's a question mark by

21 that name. But if we consider that these 578 people were refugees, as

22 considered by the office in question, what I would like to know, sir, is

23 this: When on the 9th of May these persons arrived at Heliodrom, I would

24 like you to be more specific and tell me what conditions, how were they

25 accommodated and taken in? Were they admitted by the responsible persons

Page 14923

1 from that office, and you gave us two names? And when they arrived, how

2 were they received by these people, and were these people registered as

3 having arrived at Heliodrom? So to the best of your recollections, do you

4 know this or not? If not, say you don't and we'll move on, but if you can

5 help us out on this point and tell us to the best of your recollection how

6 all this evolved, this could be useful to us.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 9th of May, when the people

8 started arriving, the women and children and men, when they started

9 arriving at Heliodrom -- or, rather, when they came to the building next

10 door to the prison, they were put up -- or, rather, Marko Bevanda and

11 Biljana Nikic dealt with them. She, Biljana, received the people and

12 registered their names. They were accommodated in the prison building.

13 In the prison building, at the time, there was just one department

14 for prisoners -- or, rather, there was just one room where prisoners were

15 serving their sentence, and they were physically separated from the people

16 who were arriving. The prison itself, the prison building, as a prison,

17 was a place where there were guards and a place where there was security

18 details working that day doing their normal shifts. They were on duty

19 that day.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question. These two

21 people that you mentioned, Bevanda and Biljana Nikic, received these

22 people, took their names and so on, and you explained to us that they were

23 put up in the prison, but apparently you separated -- they were separated

24 from the prisoners, and you make that distinction.

25 Now, if one of the 578 people brought in said, "I wish to call my

Page 14924

1 aunt," for example, "who is in Rome. I want to phone her up," or, "I want

2 to go out to buy an apple," or things like that, what would have happened?

3 A schoolroom example. Would you have prevented them from doing that or

4 what? What would you personally have done?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Faced with a situation like that, as

6 care of these people was taken over by Mr. Marko Bevanda and Biljana

7 Nikic, this request would have been forwarded to Marko and Biljana, and

8 what the person, the lady, would have asked me, she would have ask them,

9 had to ask them, and it was up to them whether they gave permission for

10 that or not.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. An additional question as a follow-up: They were put in the

13 prison building because in the prison building the prison had the best

14 conditions, living conditions, at the time; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'd now like to go back to the question of the central kitchen.

17 You said that the meals and food for the detainees was prepared in this

18 central kitchen. Now, the central kitchen was a kitchen belonging to the

19 3rd Brigade located at Heliodrom, and via the 3rd Brigade and their

20 kitchen, the meals for the prisoners was organised. Am I right in saying

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, please, is it true and correct that you had the same

24 food, that the employees of the prison had the same food as the prisoners?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14925

1 Q. May we have on e-court the following document: 502533. It's in

2 the first bundle. 502533, the first bundle. In the Croatian version. I

3 would like to look at page 1, line 9 and in the English version it is on

4 page 2. P 02533 is the document number. It's also a document from the

5 office for displaced persons and refugees, and I'm going to read out the

6 paragraph that I'm interested in, where it says the following: "Together

7 with other organisations and institutions, we took in and had under our

8 care about 150.000 refugees and displaced persons." We have the wrong

9 document. 2533 is the number. On e-court we have 5233. We need document

10 2533 on e-court, please. I'll read on: "We provided sufficient

11 quantities of humanitarian aid of all kinds, several thousand tonnes, and

12 thanks to that, we succeeded in ensuring normal living conditions for

13 about 2.000 individuals at Heliodrom without assistance from other

14 organisations."

15 Tell me, please, do you know about this, and is what it says here

16 correct, that the office for displaced persons and refugees procured

17 humanitarian aid and assistance to cater to the individuals at Heliodrom?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, please, sir -- and now I'd like to go back to the

20 releases. Is it correct that in 1993, especially after May onwards,

21 different -- all sorts of different people came in to bring in orders and

22 intervene to have people released from the prison?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'll show you a number of documents now to take a brief look at

25 them, and then I'll go ahead and ask you my questions. On e-court -- or,

Page 14926

1 rather, it is from bundle 6, Prosecution bundle 6, and we'll see it on

2 e-court. So look at your screen, please, sir. 502439 is the number of

3 the first document. 502439, not 5, P, P 0, Prosecution 02439.

4 It is an order by the anti-terrorist group named Baja Kraljevic

5 dated the 18th of May, 1993. The signature is illegible, but the person

6 issues an order that a person incarcerated in Heliodrom be released

7 immediately.

8 It's a short document. Let's look at the next document which is

9 P 02325, and it is also to be found in bundle 6. While we're waiting for

10 that, I'll explain what the document is about. It's an order from

11 Mr. Stanko Bozic dated the 12th of May, 1993, in which it says the

12 following: "That pursuant to orders from Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, the

13 following persons," and five are listed, "are to be released immediately."

14 We can go on to the third document now. It is P 02443. And it is

15 an order from Ivica Pusic, the commander of the brigade SIS, of the 3rd

16 Brigade dated the 18th of May, 1993, and he too is calling for the release

17 of a certain person after an interview has been conducted.

18 Now, we have seen these three documents and we have seen that they

19 are all orders from Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and the chief of the brigade

20 SIS as well as the commander of the ATG, Baja Kraljevic, an officer there.

21 Now, looking at these three documents I assume that you received

22 orders from various people and you had to comply with them; you couldn't

23 refuse. Am I right in saying that?

24 A. These orders --

25 Q. Just give me a yes or no answer, please. Could you refuse to

Page 14927

1 comply or not?

2 A. Your Honours, might I be allowed to explain?

3 Q. Answer my question first and then go on to explain. Could you

4 say, "Mr. Tuta, I'm not going to release those people"?

5 A. Madam, the people that you mentioned here, I don't think this name

6 of Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and Ivica Pusic, that these are rare examples.

7 And of the many releases, you name Zeljko Starac, for example. He never

8 ever wrote again and never asked anybody to be released again. So this

9 was a very rare occasion. Most of these were signed by Mr. Berko Pusic

10 and the staff of the crime prevention service working in the military

11 police. That's where they -- the orders came from.

12 Q. Well, Their Honours have the bundles. They'll be able to see

13 whose orders they were, but I'm asking you a very simple question. When

14 these people sent in their order for release, did you have to comply or

15 not?

16 A. The same request was sent to Mr. Marko Bevanda and Biljana Nikic,

17 and they gave the response. They said whether they could be released or

18 not.

19 Q. I'm asking about you. If you don't want to answer, that's fine,

20 we'll move on, but I'm asking you about Tuta and these other people,

21 whether you could have refused them?

22 A. I was not in a position to say that. So, madam counsel, I want to

23 tell the truth. You want to interpret it in your own way.

24 So, Your Honours, may I be brief but to be clear as well?

25 Q. But, sir, you are neither brief nor being very clear and I would

Page 14928

1 like to move on because I don't have enough time?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The document that we have before

4 us introduces an element of confusion because we have a document dated the

5 18th of May which is signed by Ivica Pusic from the SIS which requests the

6 release of Badzak, who is in prison. Now, apparently this man Badzak was

7 not a refugee. He was in prison. Because a refugee by definition is not

8 a prisoner, whereas here, apparently, the author of this document

9 considers Badzak to be in prison. Now, you probably don't remember the

10 circumstances surrounding Badzak, but if Badzak was indeed a prisoner,

11 which means he was separated from the other detainees, and if this Badzak

12 was a refugee, then the document should have been addressed to the office

13 for displaced persons and refugees, not addressed to the commander or the

14 warden of the prison.

15 Do you have an explanation for that -- to give us?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As it is addressed to refugees who

17 were located and put up in prison as displaced persons, everything that

18 needed to be done was forwarded to Biljana Nikic and Marko Bevanda, and

19 they decided about whether these people were released and not the prison

20 staff, not me. Now, if this was a question of a prisoner --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We agree there, but -- yes,

22 you're quite right from the point of view of the law and the regulations.

23 It was up to the office to regulate that. But apparently we have a

24 document which says that Badzak is a prisoner. Now, is that a mistake on

25 the part of the person addressing this order, or do you have another

Page 14929

1 explanation? I don't know. We're trying to see through this as clearly

2 as possible.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In reading the document, Badzak

4 seems to have been in detention. Now, Mr. Ivica Pusic was the assistant

5 commander of the 3rd Brigade for security, and he had the right to release

6 a person whom he had interviewed.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In reading this, and I'm going

8 to be brief, I don't want to take up Defence time. If we look at the

9 first paragraph it says: "Please release ... Badzak, residing in Mostar,

10 number 17 Husinske Bune street." Which might lead one to conclude that he

11 left on the 9th of May -- this is his supposition, that he left his house

12 on the 9th of May and that he was in Heliodrom as a refugee. But in the

13 second paragraph, he goes on to explain. He had a preliminary interview

14 conducted by somebody at SIS. After the 9th of May and following that

15 interview, we get this request for the release of this person.

16 Now, to the best of your knowledge, these refugees in inverted

17 commas, alleged refugees, were there members of SIS that came to the

18 prison to conduct interviews and have meetings with them?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Especially if it refers to this

20 case. Mr. Ivica Pusic was also placed within the perimeter of Heliodrom,

21 and he probably brought it himself. And based on this paper he was

22 released.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may be of assistance. Perhaps

24 the witness should be advised of his rights again, that he's here to tell

25 the whole truth, not part of the truth. He should answer the questions.

Page 14930

1 And he's here to answer the questions truthfully and completely. He's not

2 doing that. He's obfuscating. He's obviously giving my colleague a hard

3 time. He's not answering the questions. He must be warned.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Sir, so far I had the

5 impression that you understood what you were being told. Counsel is

6 asking you a precise question and I'm asking you a precise question,

7 neither of which you're answering.

8 My question was: Did SIS investigators come to meet

9 the "refugees" between the 9th and the 18th of May? That's a very simple

10 question.

11 A. I didn't see SIS people at all while the refugees were at the

12 prison.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Well, Counsel,

14 proceed and the Chamber will try to assist you in getting exactly the

15 answers to your question.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I didn't get an answer to

17 my previous question concerning the order, but I will move on. We have

18 the entire documentation. Can we see P 0 --

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I might also try to be of some assistance. It

20 seems to me -- but, Witness, you please verify and confirm what I say. I

21 thought that your answer to the question of counsel, whether you had to

22 obey to anyone who ordered or wanted you to order a release, your answer

23 was it was not you to decide, but this went directly to Biljana and the

24 other gentleman, and they took the decision. You did not take a decision

25 at all. Did I understand you correctly?

Page 14931

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

2 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And if it didn't concern refugees, if it concerned prisoners,

4 because you said the two categories were separated, who decided then?

5 A. About prisoners?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. About the prisoners who were in prison, it's their superior who

8 decided.

9 Q. Who exactly?

10 A. The person who issued the order for their detention. We were just

11 a service who executed and kept the person who was imprisoned by whoever.

12 Q. I am confused completely now, because all these orders are

13 addressed to the central military prison, but I really have no more time.

14 Can I now see please P 01806 from the second bundle. It's a

15 report from Mr. Stanko Bozic submitted to Mr. Coric and Mr. Marcinko.

16 It's a report on the work of the prison for March 1993. I will read only

17 one paragraph in Croatian. It's the last sentence on page 1. In English

18 it's on page 2. That paragraph says: "In the course of the month, we

19 received two visits from the ICRC, whose entry into the prison was

20 approved by the chief, Mr. Valentin Coric."

21 The report does not mention that the International Committee of

22 the Red Cross had any comments or negative comments about the situation in

23 prison. You can see it there. And I'll continue. I suppose that there

24 were no complaints because otherwise they would be noted in the report; is

25 that correct?

Page 14932

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry, Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic. Could you indicate

3 where you quoted from because I have the document number P 01806 in front

4 of me, and I do not find the passage that you have quoted from page 2 of

5 the English version. Oh, I'm sorry, I found it. I'm sorry. It's okay.

6 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I would now like to call another document, P 02853, also from our

8 second bundle. P 02853. It's a report for the month of May 1993, again

9 from Mr. Stanko Bozic, addressed to Mr. Coric for May 1993. I will read

10 out a couple of points that are interesting to me.

11 First, the first two sentences, to follow up on what we discussed

12 before, it says: "On the 9th of May, 1993, upon the outbreak of

13 conflicts, for security reasons, we received 1.820 persons into our

14 institution, who remained a couple of days." That is the first sentence.

15 And then the last sentence on page 1, it continues on page 2. It

16 says: "In the course of the month of May, we had regular visits from the

17 Red Cross. Representatives of the ICRC notified us that they were

18 satisfied with the correct conduct of employees, but we also received a

19 complaint that isolation cells were inadequate and that we should not

20 place a single prisoner inside them."

21 Now, I read out to you the comments about May 1993, comments from

22 the ICRC, and I don't see that there were any other complaints such as

23 about mistreatment of prisoners. If there had been any, they would also

24 have been in this report; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14933

1 Q. I need to correct the transcript my colleagues tell me.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just two small questions on this

3 document. It transpires from this document that 1.820 displaced persons

4 spent some time at Heliodrom. Do you agree with this figure? It's from

5 your superior, Mr. Bozic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he wrote that correctly,

7 because he got this indicator from the employees who worked with him.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the 18th of May, we saw that

9 518 were released. If we do the maths, I see that other people, some

10 other people, stayed in Heliodrom. And on the 26th of May, 1993, we see

11 that Mr. Pusic took eight persons for an exchange.

12 From your recollection, did "refugees" stay or did they leave, or

13 did maybe some new ones come after the 18th of May, because eight days

14 later, on the 26th of May, we see that there was eight of them who needed

15 to be exchanged. How do you explain that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since large numbers were coming in,

17 and it's mentioned in this report, some immediate releases followed at

18 various -- following various interventions and orders. As they were

19 coming in, they were also leaving.

20 As for these eight detainees that were taken over by Mr. Berislav

21 Pusic, in the last passage it says, "for purposes of exchange," which

22 means that those persons were in prison on that day and then they left to

23 be exchanged for somebody else, probably members of the Croat ethnicity.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a quick question. In the

25 next paragraph I see that Mr. Rade Maricic had escaped, but what's

Page 14934

1 curious, it says a "detainee in the civilian prison." Does that mean that

2 your military prison had also become a civilian prison? Because it's your

3 own boss who says so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This detainee who was placed,

5 according to what Mr. Bozic writes here, he was a detainee of the civilian

6 prison, and the civilian prison was located in Ricinova Street in Mostar.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But how come then that

8 Mr. Bozic, who is the chief of the military prison gets interested in

9 somebody who is in a civilian prison? I rather have the impression that

10 Mr. Rade Maricic had been transferred to your prison, the military prison.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must have been the police who

12 caught him the same night he escaped, or maybe caught him later and put

13 him in our prison.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would also like to ask a question. A few

15 moments back we had a list of persons released which went up to the 18th

16 of May. Some people were released on the 16th, 17th, and 18th of May.

17 You remember this?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: In your -- in your diary, on the 15th of May, you

20 write, "All those removed from the zone of war operations have been

21 released."

22 You must have been wrong in your diary. So it's not reliable; is

23 that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The diary is true. It's only my

25 recollection that I cannot trust completely date -- to a day.

Page 14935

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Are you then saying that the document shown to

2 you by counsel, Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic, was false? Because there you have

3 released -- lists of persons released or the 16th, the 17th, and the 18th

4 of May.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this part, when a report is

6 written it was written 19th June but covering the month of May 1993. And

7 Mr. Bozic reported all events and developments for the whole month of May.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I'm not taking this further. I'm not

9 saying that I'm satisfied, but I don't want to take more of your time,

10 Counsel. I'm sorry.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to

12 clarify once again, because there is a general confusion about this.

13 Q. At the time when they arrived, we referred to them as displaced

14 person or refugees. At that point, at the same time, there are other

15 persons to whom we refer as prisoners or detainees. They are separated,

16 and they had been in the prison from before because they're either serving

17 sentences or awaiting proceedings against them, et cetera. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So throughout the time when the displaced persons were there and

21 continuing in the month of May, policework continues. Some new prisoners

22 arrive. They are processed by crime prevention and security officers, and

23 they are placed in the prison.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So when, in this document, we refer to exchange and detention, we

Page 14936

1 are not talking about the people who were under Biljana Nikic and Marko

2 Bevanda. We are talking about the people who were being dealt with by the

3 crime police or SIS and who do not belong to the category of displaced

4 persons. They belong to the category of prisoners who were separated.

5 Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The last thing from this document, that is the last two

8 sentences: "The number of employed officers is 24. Deputy commander Pero

9 Marijanovic is on sick leave as a result of being wounded in street

10 fighting in Ricinova Street."

11 Pero Marijanovic is mentioned here, who is on sick leave on the

12 19th of June because he was wounded in the fighting. Tell me, Pero

13 Marijanovic was one of your guards, wasn't he?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember that military policemen, including Pero

16 Marijanovic, were also engaged on the front line in combat?

17 A. Mr. Pero Marijanovic was wounded on Ricinova Street. I think he

18 was wounded when the military investigations prison was being relocated

19 from Ricinova Street to Heliodrom, as far as I can remember.

20 Q. Do you know how long he was on sick leave?

21 A. I really couldn't remember.

22 Q. Generally speaking, do you know whether military police was also

23 engaged in combat on the front line? I'm not speaking only about your

24 experience in the prison. You were a military policeman. Maybe you

25 should know.

Page 14937

1 A. I don't know that because I never moved anywhere from Heliodrom.

2 Q. In this report we saw that the number of employed officers was 24.

3 You told us the number of guards was around 16. If I understood

4 correctly, apart from the guards, another three of you were employed:

5 Mr. Bozic, Ms. Cvitanovic, and you. That means 3 plus 16 makes 19. Here

6 we see 24.

7 Will you agree with me that, in fact, the number of guards was not

8 always the same, it varied?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can we now call on e-court from our second bundle P 03209. It's a

11 document shown to you by the Prosecutor during his examination-in-chief.

12 It's a report you wrote for Mr. Bozic concerning the incident with volleys

13 of automatic fire. I will not read it. I will just ask you some

14 questions.

15 In the report it says the following: That the military police

16 from the prison security informed the brigade police about the incident,

17 and the deputy commander of the 3rd Brigade, and that after that an

18 agreement was reached according to which the brigade military police was

19 to conduct the processing.

20 Now, I assume that the perpetrators of this incident were soldiers

21 from units put up at Heliodrom and that it was the brigade military police

22 that was in charge of them and not your security service, and that for

23 that reason, it was the brigade military police and the command of the

24 brigade was supposed to take measures linked to this incident. Would that

25 be correct?

Page 14938

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me now, please, hypothetically, had your police security

3 service for providing security for the prison, had they stood up to the

4 perpetrators responsible for this incident, am I right in thinking that

5 all that could have happened would be to fan the flames of the incident?

6 The consequences would have been much worse had they done so; is that

7 correct? Had the military police from the prison security physically

8 stood up to the people doing the shooting, they just would have made the

9 situation worse with more adverse consequences; is that right?

10 A. Yes. And they didn't allow them to enter. They didn't allow them

11 anywhere near the building.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I think, counsel, this is a bit of

13 speculation, "What would have happened if."

14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll continue

15 with the questions and then you'll understand why I'm asking this and why

16 I think I have grounds to conclude that. And I think that my next

17 question will clarify this.

18 Q. Up until now we had determined the number of military policemen

19 providing security for the prison. We have established which units were

20 stationed at Heliodrom. We did this during the examination-in-chief. Now

21 just tell me one more thing. Is it true and correct that according to the

22 instructions for the work of the central military prison, dated the 22nd

23 of September, 1992, which you're well acquainted with, a military

24 policeman doing security detail within the prison building did not -- was

25 not allowed to have either long-barrelled or short-barrelled weapons but

Page 14939

1 all he had was a rubber truncheon; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, because of what I've asked just now, I think my hypothesis

4 was quite logical. It was quite logical and feasible.

5 I'd now like to move on and discuss the 30th of June. When you

6 previously spoke about the arrival of a large number of persons on the

7 30th of June, 1993, you said that when they were received and their names

8 taken and criminally processed and that it was the crime prevention

9 department and the SIS and the MUP that did the processing. Do you

10 remember saying that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, after the 30th of June, 1993, did unauthorised persons bring

13 in various orders in respect of these people and that they did not respect

14 the orders given by the authorised personnel and thus made work in prison

15 impossible, the normal work of the prison impossible? Do you remember

16 incidents like that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Right. Now, may we have on e-court the following document --

19 we're going to show two documents -- or, rather, three documents, and then

20 we'll discuss them. The first document is P 03193. It's in the second

21 bundle. And it is a document signed by Mr. Zvonko Vidovic on the 5th of

22 July. It is a special report. And I'm reading from paragraph four where

23 it says the following: "According to the list approved earlier, 81

24 individuals from the category of the over 60s and under 18s have been

25 released, but 16 juveniles were refused passage on the last check-point

Page 14940

1 before Mostar, they were returned, although the list with the names of

2 these individuals for whom this bus transport was organised was supplied

3 to them earlier. The check-point commander, Tomislav Primorac, was

4 informed about this omission made by his soldiers."

5 May we now move on to the next document. It is document P 03238.

6 Once again a special report by Mr. Vidovic dated the 6th of July, and I'm

7 reading from paragraph two: "Seventy persons were released who had passed

8 the military commission which established that these persons should

9 continue treatment in a hospital. During the release of the last group of

10 detained individuals, an incident occurred involving three young unknown

11 soldiers from Siroki Brijeg, the Siroki Brijeg battalion, who forced out,

12 from a bus, 30 individuals with valid medical clearances and at gunpoint

13 returned them to the SVIZ premises. Following a similar incident which

14 took place the previous day at the check-point to the entrance to Mostar,

15 in my view, we should stop with this way of releasing persons until we are

16 given orders that regulate the attitude of soldiers towards the detained

17 individuals. I have to add that yesterday in the SVIZ a written order

18 arrived signed by Colonel Obradovic emphasising that, without his

19 signature, there can be no visits or release of detainees from the SVIZ

20 Heliodrom."

21 Now, tell me, were you aware of this incident? Do you remember

22 that events like this took place and whether Mr. Vidovic, who signed the

23 document, is the same Vidovic that you told us about?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is your answer yes to both parts of my question, because my

Page 14941

1 question was in two parts?

2 A. Yes to -- well, there were problems. People were returned. I

3 remember that very well. The persons as stated were returned from the

4 check-points, that's true.

5 Q. May we now have a document from bundle 2. P 03201 is the number,

6 and it is the order from Colonel Obradovic mentioned in the report of the

7 5th of July, 1993. All I'd ask you to do is to have a look at it and to

8 say whether you are acquainted with the order, whether you've seen it, yes

9 or no?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Now let's move on to the following document: P 03351.

12 It is also from the second bundle, and it is a report from the defence

13 department for the period of January and February. In Croatian, it is on

14 page 6, and in English, on page 8, and I'd like to focus on point 2.4.

15 This is something that the Prosecutor showed you earlier on. So I'd like

16 to read it out again. Point 5.4, and I'm interested in the last

17 paragraph.

18 "The military police has the task of providing security -- the

19 security of the prisoners. Forcible entry into the prison was noted, and

20 forcible conducting of investigations by certain commanders. Conduct --

21 behaviour of this kind should be prohibited once and for all and rendered

22 impossible."

23 Tell me, please, do you know that unauthorised individuals, as it

24 says in this document, for example, the commanders of various units, the

25 soldiers of the units like those put up at Heliodrom, did forcibly enter

Page 14942

1 the prison? Which means, despite the fact that the guards and you were

2 opposed to this, they nonetheless entered the prison. Did you have

3 knowledge of cases of that kind?

4 A. Only in two instances.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, the following document: P 03254 on e-court,

6 please, in the second bundle as well. And it is an order from Mr. Stanko

7 Bozic dated the 7th of July, 1993, in which it says the following: "The

8 order by Mr. Valentin Coric to prohibit entry -- all unauthorised entry

9 into the prison".

10 Am I right in saying that from this order we can see that

11 Mr. Bozic was aware of this kind of conduct and that with the help of

12 Mr. Coric he attempted to prevent these incidents on the basis of this

13 order?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Fine. Now, you told us, and I'd like to go back to

16 the crime processing, you said that the crime prevention department of the

17 military police processed individuals brought in on the 30th of June,

18 1993.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Before

20 broaching that subject, I'd like to go back to a point. Based on the

21 documents shown by the Coric Defence, it would appear that the military

22 police under the authority of Mr. Coric recounted the situation, and it

23 seems that P 3201 was about this, that Colonel Obradovic had authority to

24 release prisoners, because he says, on the 5th of July, nobody was to be

25 released without him having signed. So Mr. Obradovic was not a member of

Page 14943

1 the military police. He was from the 1st Brigade of the HVO, Knez Domagoj

2 Brigade.

3 Now, how do you see the situation? Does it mean that as of the

4 5th of July it was the 1st Brigade that had tutorship over the prison,

5 authority over the prison and authority over who was to be released or

6 not? Was that it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The -- the order from Mr. Obradovic,

8 I remember it well. It was not complied with because he wrote the order

9 and because Heliodrom, allegedly, was in the area of responsibility of the

10 army he was in command of. And I remember after that that this order was

11 conveyed to Stanko Bozic, and he was told that it was not meritorious and

12 that we came under the authority -- we, the prison, came under the

13 authority of the military police.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Counsel, please.

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I'd like to go back to the crime prevention department of the

18 military police who processed individuals brought in on the 30th of June,

19 1993. That's what you said.

20 Now, tell me this: The processing includes interviews,

21 interrogations, does it not, and it's standard policework, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Next document, P 03651 on e-court, please. It's in the second

24 bundle. And it is from Mr. Zvonko Vidovic. The subject is the decisions

25 taken at a meeting held in Ljubuski on the 22nd of July, 1993, in the

Page 14944

1 military police administration. The document is dated the 23rd of July.

2 I'd like to read the document and then we'll discuss it. I'd like to

3 start with paragraph two where it says the following:

4 "The activities and competence of the crime prevention department

5 were reiterated once more at the meeting. It was assessed that direct

6 collaboration with the active-duty police, the military police and the

7 MUP, and the District Military Court was good. The initiation of

8 proceedings was wholly clear, and there was no overlap, while our

9 cooperation with the officers of the central military investigation or

10 remand prison must be indirect. A mediation is achieved through the

11 District Military Court for which we process crimes to the extent of

12 evaluating whether there are grounds for bringing criminal proceedings,

13 and the SIS, inasmuch as cooperation is necessary.

14 "So all the individuals who were detained, where criminal

15 proceedings were not taken or criminal reports filed, as far as our

16 department is concerned, it is under the -- on the order of the chief of

17 the military police administration, unknown to our department. This

18 refers solely to a large number of Muslims who were brought

19 indiscriminately to the SVIZ, the central military investigation prison

20 building, and then forgotten. Through inertia, the crime prevention

21 department conducted interviews with over 2.000 people, but not a single

22 one of them was of any interest from the aspects of crime prevention. The

23 question posed of Mr. Valentin Coric, the chief of the military police

24 administration regarding our duties was therefore justified and was the

25 reason for him issuing the order for us to start dealing with crime.

Page 14945

1 "After the head of the department of administration and justice

2 had to compile a report on the SVIZ, that is to say the prison, pursuant

3 to decisions of this department, it is the task of the warden of the SVIZ

4 to name a department of justice -- that a department of justice should be

5 appointed and that all decisions be taken by it. As concerns disciplinary

6 measures against HVO soldiers, these will be decided by the person issuing

7 them. We believe that there are a certain number of people who are of

8 interest to security among the 2.000 brought in indiscriminately to the

9 SVIZ. They should be found and processed, which is a job for the

10 information and security service."

11 Now I'd like to ask you the following: From this document, can we

12 see that the chief, Valentin Coric, sent this -- a letter saying that

13 their job was crime detection processing on the basis of which a criminal

14 report can be filed as well as the fact that people who were not suspects

15 and were not suspected of having committed crimes did not come under the

16 authority of the crime prevention department of the military police. Have

17 you understood what I've said?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Well, then, may I have your answer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, yesterday my colleague Ms. Nozica showed you document

22 P 04775. We can show it on e-court, but I'm sure we all remember the

23 document. It was the proposal with the schematic for work in prison which

24 you sent to Mr. Rado Lavric whom you considered at that moment to be the

25 responsible person in the military police and who could help resolve the

Page 14946

1 situation. Do you remember the document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, I feel, when I read out the document from Mr. Coric a moment

4 ago, where the department of justice and the crime prevention department

5 of the military police is raised and their authority and power with

6 respect to the SVIZ, that Mr. Coric explains the situation precisely in

7 the way in which you did, that you proposed on the basis of your

8 schematic. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'm moving on to another subject. Shall we take the break now,

11 because I have a couple of documents which are quite long? If it's at all

12 possible, could we take the break now, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you wish. It's 25 past. We

14 are going to take a 20-minute break.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Proceed.

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We are now going to look at two documents from the second bundle.

20 First, can we have P 03942. It's a report from Mr. Bozic from the 4th of

21 August, 1993, addressed to Mr. Valentin Coric and Mr. Zlatan Mijo Jelic.

22 You have already seen this report, so I will very briefly retell it

23 because we have no time.

24 It describes the situation at Heliodrom post-30th June, and it

25 describes the problems you encountered starting with health problems,

Page 14947

1 including lice, jaundice, and some other diseases among prisoners,

2 unpleasantness with ATG Baja Kraljevic, and the problem of shortage of

3 officers.

4 In this report, in the last but one paragraph, it is mentioned

5 that for a while you had eight home guards given to you for assistance.

6 Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This was from the 4th of August. And now I would like to see

9 P 04031 from the same bundle. It's a report from Mr. Branimir Tucak from

10 the administration of the military police security service, dated 8th of

11 August, 1993. That's four days after the previous one. And then

12 Mr. Tucak relates again the occurrence of lice and scabies, the shortage

13 of military policemen, and asks for reinforcements.

14 Do you remember that Mr. Tucak was also in the control department,

15 that he came to inspect?

16 A. Yes, I met with him two times. He did come.

17 Q. When we look at the date, we see that Mr. Tucak came to inspect

18 two days after Mr. Bozic informed Mr. Coric of the situation at Heliodrom.

19 We just note this from the documents.

20 In your diary, in the entry for the 14th of August, six days after

21 the date of the report by Mr. Tucak, I see that you wrote on Tuesday,

22 seven new military policemen would come as reinforcements. Do you

23 remember that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When we look at the situation in which home guards were sent to

Page 14948

1 you and attempts to send reinforcements, would you agree with me that

2 after the requests addressed by Mr. Bozic to the extent of what was

3 possible, there were attempts to send you reinforcements?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I would now like to move on to another subject.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. Defence has

7 referred to reinforcements, and you needed them. That's obvious. Still,

8 in this last document, we see that you had 2.000 prisoners. You used to

9 work in civilian prisons. In 1993, though, there were international

10 treaties and documents, and there were standardised ratios between the

11 number of prisoners and the number of supervising personnel. Were you

12 aware of those standards or were you completely ignorant of them?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Proceed, please.

15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Tell me, do you -- are you aware that in 1993 Mostar town was

17 divided into sectors for purposes of defence?

18 A. There were some divisions, but I can't remember them. I only

19 remember the responsibilities of Mr. Mijo Jelic, because he was the one

20 who maintained contacts, and I heard that he had been appointed for the

21 defence of the town.

22 Q. Let us try to clear that up through a couple of questions. Do you

23 know that Mr. Zlatan Mijo Jelic, until the beginning of August 1993, apart

24 from being commander of the 1st Light Assault Battalion of the military

25 police, was also commander of the central sector or the central zone of

Page 14949

1 the Mostar defence?

2 A. I couldn't know that.

3 Q. Do you know that in that period before August 1993, and I'm asking

4 you this because it's evident from the Prosecution documents that you

5 reviewed and said you reviewed, do you know that until August 1993

6 Mr. Mijo Jelic issued orders for prisoners to be taken out to work for the

7 requirements of other units, too, such as ATG Mrmak, ATG Zrinko Skrobo,

8 ATG Benko Penavic, 2nd Battalion of the 2nd Brigade of the HVO, and the

9 MUP?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know that Mr. Mijo Jelic, after August 1993, was commander

12 of the Mostar defence and in that capacity issued all orders related to

13 the defence of Mostar including orders to take out prisoners for labour?

14 A. I knew he was commander of the town defence, and he had powers to

15 have prisoners taken out to work.

16 Q. Is it true that it was common practice at the prison, at the time

17 when Mijo Jelic was commander of the town defence, that for the purposes

18 of any unit that needed prisoners for labour, orders would come to Jelic

19 and then down to commander of the prison, Bozic, and from him, down to the

20 security commander?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I would now like to move to another subject. Could we call on

23 e-court from the first -- sorry, from the second bundle. There are two

24 documents that we will see. The first document of the two will be

25 P 04902, an order from Stanko Bozic of the 9th September, 1993, where he

Page 14950

1 says -- it's still not on e-court. P 04902.

2 It's called "order", and it says: "It is strictly prohibited to

3 take any prisoners out to work beginning with the 10th September, 1993, at

4 2000 hours."

5 Next document, please. P 04927. It's a report by Mr. Stanko

6 Bozic dated 10th September, 1993, which reads -- I'll just read the first

7 paragraph: "On 9th September, 1993, I performed an inspection of the

8 prison and observed, among other things, prisoners who had been injured

9 and who wrote their own statements on the circumstances of their injuries,

10 that I attach hereto."

11 Now, am I right in concluding that Warden Bozic, in his inspection

12 of the 9th of September, learned about cases of injuries to the prisoners

13 and reacted by issuing this order prohibiting prisoners to be taken out to

14 work?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, can we call on e-court P 05881. It was shown yesterday by my

17 colleague Ms. Alaburic. It's an order from General Petkovic, dated 14th

18 October, 1993, a month after Mr. Bozic's order prohibiting prisoners from

19 being taken out to work in any of the brigades' zones of responsibilities.

20 When we look at this order, we conclude that General Petkovic was

21 trying to assist Mr. Bozic and had to issue this order, because the prison

22 as such, headed by Mr. Bozic, did not wield enough authority to prevent

23 occurrences of prisoners being taken out to labour with all the implicit

24 violations.

25 A. Yes.

Page 14951

1 Q. Can we now see P 06202. It's also from the second bundle. It was

2 shown to you previously by the Prosecutor. It's a report by Mr. Stanko

3 Bozic of the 28th October, 1993, addressed to General Petkovic.

4 Mr. Bozic thereby informs General Petkovic that units are failing

5 to comply with his order forbidding detainees to be taken out for labour,

6 and I conclude that the units did not, after all, obey even the order of

7 General Petkovic; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can we now call on e-court P 06819. It's an order from Mr. Stanko

10 Bozic of the 23rd November, 1993. It's an order that reads: "Order

11 forbidding prisoners from being taken out to work, pursuant to the general

12 order of General Milivoj Petkovic of the 14th October, 1993. This order

13 enters into force again as of 23rd November, 1993, at 1500 hours."

14 Just tell me, why does it say the order enters into force again?

15 A. Probably Mr. Bozic, again, contacted the competent superiors and

16 wrote this order. He didn't write it just like that.

17 Q. And why were the said units accepted -- exempted from this order?

18 A. They're all from the 3rd Brigade, and it was at the locality of

19 Heliodrom barracks.

20 Q. It means because that whatever works they required, they would be

21 performed within the perimeter of Heliodrom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it true that there were cases that units deployed at Heliodrom

24 would take out prisoners on the pretext that they would be working within

25 Heliodrom, and then without informing the prison authorities, they would

Page 14952

1 take them outside?

2 A. I heard that about -- I heard about that coming back from my sick

3 leave. I heard that they were taken out to places where they sustained

4 wounds, and some people were even killed.

5 Q. Another subject now. Can we call P 06848, both in English and in

6 B/C/S. We'll look at the last sentence.

7 Before that, I would just like to remind everybody that we have

8 already discussed cases of unauthorised entry, forcible or violent

9 interrogations, violation of orders prohibiting entry to Heliodrom.

10 Now, this is something you saw before of the 24th November, 1993,

11 a report that you sent to Major General Ante Roso, head of police Rade

12 Lavric, chief of defence Jukic, and in the last sentence you say, on the

13 24th November, 1993: "It is my opinion that it is high time to take some

14 steps to improve the work of the prison and to improve security, as well

15 as to decide exactly who is authorised to take out prisoners from work or

16 to order them to be taken out for work, that is, in whose jurisdiction the

17 prison in Mostar is."

18 I suppose this reflects the situation as it was in Heliodrom in

19 November 1993; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The transcript says in November, whereas my question was up to

22 November, throughout year 1993.

23 Can we now call on e-court P 04756. In Croatian it's page 3. In

24 English it's page 4. Fourth paragraph, I believe. It's in our first

25 bundle. It's a record or minutes from the senior staff meeting of the

Page 14953

1 department of defence of the 2nd of September, 1993, and I'm going to read

2 the passage now.

3 "Thereafter, Mr. Coric presented certain problems faced by the

4 military police. Primarily due to the engagement of military police on

5 the front line, quality has been lost in the personnel of the military

6 police, materiel and equipment are being taken out by unauthorised

7 individuals, and work is very poor in military prisons."

8 And then the chief took the floor and said: "My opinion is that

9 we have two military prisons, that is, Heliodrom and the military prison

10 at Ljubuski. As for other places of detection, Gabela and Dretelj, I do

11 not consider them as military facilities..." And so on and so forth.

12 Tell me, please, do you know -- are you familiar with this

13 situation regarding the military police? You agreed, it seems, that the

14 situation was exactly as described by Mr. Coric at this meeting.

15 A. Yes, but I didn't know that the military police went out to fight

16 on the front line.

17 Q. You didn't know because you didn't know about anything that

18 happened outside Heliodrom.

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Can you just repeat your answer. You said, "Yes, but I didn't

21 know that the military police went out to the front line." Is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'd now like to go back to something that you discussed with

25 Ms. Nozica. Just a moment. Let me find it. In response to her

Page 14954

1 questions, you said that, as the warden of the prison, you represented

2 yourself as such and signed documents, and after the meeting with

3 Mr. Franjo Cvitkovic at which you received his order to tighten the

4 security service in prison. Do you remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In your diary it is noted that the meeting took place on the 26th

7 of August, 1993. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We're now going to take a look at two documents briefly. They are

10 documents P 05457 first, please, on e-court. The document is in the

11 Prosecution bundle but not in ours, unfortunately. It is 13/3, part 3 of

12 the third bundle. Otherwise, it's P 05457. And it's on page 2. It is

13 titled "Instructions."

14 We've already looked at this document. Ms. Nozica showed you it

15 yesterday. But anyway, it's a set of instructions from you about the

16 books to be kept for detainees taken out to perform labour.

17 Now, on page 5 of 186, please, may we see the signature and the

18 date. The signature says the 20th of August, 1993, and your signature as

19 prison warden. Can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It's something you've already looked at. Now, the next document

22 on e-court, P 04367. Page 2 on e-court. It's also an instruction by you.

23 And also at the bottom I would like to have a look at the date and the

24 signature. It says the 20th of August, 1993, prison warden, and followed

25 by your signature. And from this I can see that both these documents were

Page 14955

1 signed and compiled six days before the meeting with Mr. Cvitkovic. That

2 is evident from the documents, so I don't require an answer from you.

3 Next document on e-court, please.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, counsel. Are these really

5 two different documents or is it two times the same document, because it's

6 the same date and the handwriting looks pretty much the same.

7 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] It has been registered as

8 two different documents by the Prosecutor, that's why I read them as such,

9 because we have two e-court numbers. And they're actually different in

10 content too.

11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if I can assist. The reason that there

12 are two different exhibits in the bundles is because they were put in the

13 face -- they were put in the front of two different logbooks, one for the

14 prison and one for the school and sports halls. So yes, there are two

15 bundles that both have this document attached or glued in or stuck in the

16 first few pages, but we can certainly ask the witness to tell us that it

17 was the same document put in two different journals.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. Mr. Praljak, are these two documents that

19 we have seen that are written by hand, is it two times the same which was

20 simply copied and used in two different places?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This book was made for one building,

22 and the other book was made for the other facility where the detainees

23 were accommodated and given out to perform labour.

24 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I asked for 4530, the next

25 document, please.

Page 14956

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. I would like to have this question

2 clarified. Can we have the two documents, the original documents, next to

3 each other on the e-court? Is it not possible to have -- okay. Well,

4 then, I leave this open.

5 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] It is a Prosecution

6 document, or both of them are from the Prosecution bundle. I tried to

7 cover both. But my colleagues are now telling me that the point is that

8 one document was compiled for one building and the other for the other

9 building. So formally -- in formal terms, they can be treated as two

10 documents. So perhaps in content they do correspond, but they were

11 intended for two different facilities.


13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I have this document.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I am told by the registrar that it is possible to

15 have them juxtaposed on the e-court and then we will immediately see

16 whether they --

17 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have the hard copy of

18 these documents and they can be placed on the ELMO. So if you wish to do

19 that, we can try that as well.

20 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to be of

21 assistance, because even -- because when we put them side by side we'll

22 see that they are the same except that the form of the documents is

23 different and has two different numbers, because one was intended for one

24 facility, the other for the other. We don't have time otherwise to --

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. I take that.

Page 14957

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Let's move on to P 04530.

2 P 04530.

3 Q. It is the minutes from the meeting of the central investigating

4 prison. The date is as we see it, 1993, 26th of August, and I'll read

5 from page 1, point 2. There's a number 2, and it says: "Under the

6 military police, which provides security for the prison, pursuant to a

7 daily report to the warden."

8 And I'll read another sentence from that same page, several lines

9 lower down: "Logistics support to the prison should be provided by the

10 military justice department."

11 Let's see who has signed that. It says "Commander of the SVIZ,"

12 and then there's your signature, Witness, Josip Praljak. Do you remember

13 this meeting and is this indeed your signature?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Your answer is yes. Right. Thank you. I just have a couple of

16 questions to ask you. We'll be finished soon.

17 Two documents, P 0 -- [no interpretation]. P 00514 is the number

18 of the next document that I'd like to look at, please. They are

19 instructions on the work of the SVIZ, the central military investigation

20 prison in -- of the HVO in Mostar, the 22nd of September, 1992, and you

21 said that it was in force throughout 1993.

22 Now may we take a look at the first page after the title page. So

23 page 1 after the title page, and look at point 1 titled "The duties of the

24 warden of the central military prison of the Croatian Defence Council in

25 Mostar."

Page 14958

1 I'll read that out. Point 1 first, please. "The prison warden is

2 responsible for the overall work and life in the prison. He is

3 responsible -- he shall be responsible for --"

4 I read the prison commander, not prison warden, to make a

5 distinction there. So I read out the prison commander, not prison warden.

6 Yes, prison commander, as it says on the document.

7 So: "The prison commander shall be responsible for all the work

8 and life in the prison. He shall be responsible for the treatment of

9 prisoners of war in accordance with the provisions of the Geneva

10 Conventions of 1949. He shall supervise the following every day:

11 Security personnel, the building and rooms, prisoners of war, and military

12 prisoners.

13 "He shall take all necessary measures on the spot to remove all

14 inadequacies observed with regard to the service. He shall assign

15 security organs and all daily activities in the prison every day through a

16 daily order."

17 Then under 7: "He shall receive representatives of the Red Cross

18 visiting the prison ..."

19 And point 8: "He shall maintain direct contact with the MUP, the

20 military court, and military prosecutor."

21 And point 9: "He shall send in reports to the military police

22 administration."

23 Tell me, please, were you -- you've already told us that you were

24 aware of the contents of this document.

25 A. Yes.

Page 14959

1 Q. And now I'd like to move on to my final area. And may I have on

2 e-court P 06844. It is a document shown to you yesterday by my colleague

3 Ms. Nozica, and I'll just ask you something very briefly from that

4 document.

5 It is a report by Mr. Perica Grujic from the crime department of

6 the military police linked to the conversation he had with you, and he

7 reports that with the 24th of November, 1994 -- or, rather, the report is

8 dated the 24th of November, 1993. I'm not going to read it. I'm just

9 interested in certain details. I don't want to read through the whole

10 report because we went through it in detail yesterday.

11 Tell me, please, are you aware of the fact written in this

12 document, according to the fact that ATG Baja Kraljevic had its own

13 policemen? That's what it says here.

14 A. No, I was not aware of that.

15 Q. Tell me, please, do you know that a person mentioned in this

16 document as Reuf Ajanovic was a person who introduced himself as Stjepan

17 Barbaric and conducted certain investigations under that name?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And another point: When you looked at these documents yesterday,

20 you told Ms. Nozica that you didn't hand over the documentation as it says

21 here in this document, but the warden Mr. Bozic. Do you recall saying

22 that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. May we have P 06626 on e-court now, please. It is in our first

25 bundle. It is a report by Mr. Stanko Bozic sent to Mr. Branimir Tucak on

Page 14960

1 the 12th of November, 1993, which is to say, 12 days prior to the

2 conversation with you, mentioned in the previous report shown to you by

3 Ms. Nozica, and it says: "Subject: Photocopying of SVIZ documentation.

4 "On the 9th of November, 1993, on the basis of a written request

5 number -- of the 8th of November from commander Mladen Naletilic aka Tuta,

6 the documentation on the release of Muslim detainees between the 1st of

7 July, 1993, and the 4th of November, 1993, was handed over for

8 photocopying.

9 "The photocopying was done by Captain Reuf Ajanovic in the

10 presence of employees of the SVIZ, Mr. Josip Praljak and Mr. Zdenko

11 Drljaca."

12 Now, tell me, did you know about this report?

13 A. If Mr. Bozic wrote it, I -- although I can't remember it now, I

14 must have been present.

15 Q. When you say you were present, does that mean that you perhaps

16 forgot, but that you were the one who handed over the documents and not

17 Mr. Bozic?

18 A. According to the report, I don't think Mr. Bozic would have wrote

19 a report contrary to this.

20 Q. Is your answer to my question, yes, then?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. All right, fine. Now, I have two more questions. You told us

23 that you had no contact with the women detainees.

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Now, in your diary under the 2nd of November, 1993, the entry

Page 14961

1 there, you recorded that you handed over their letters to the SIS employee

2 in the presence of Lutko Pehar. How can you explain that if you had no

3 contact with the women?

4 A. The letter was seized by one of the guards. I can't remember who,

5 and he brought the letter to our office, and I forwarded it to SIS, who

6 was the authority over us.

7 Q. Now, you have an entry where you say that Lutko Pehar and to the

8 SIS employee, you put to them all the problems that the prison was facing.

9 Why did you do that rather than Mr. Bozic?

10 A. I considered that, as I was the fifth member of the commission,

11 and as I took my appointment seriously, I thought that that was what I

12 should do. And many other things that I did, I did by virtue of the fact

13 that I was the fifth member of the commission in order to improve the

14 conditions at Heliodrom.

15 Q. So on the 11th of November, you were already working or considered

16 that you were already functioning as the fifth member of the commission?

17 A. I considered myself to be a member throughout, because the order

18 never arrived to say that I had ceased to be a member.

19 Q. I just have another short question. Tell me, please, do you

20 remember that on the 31st of December, 1993, 23 files of the Heliodrom

21 were handed over to Lutko Pehar?

22 A. Yes, because I was president of the commission for storing the

23 archives, and I think this process was completed in April 1994, pursuant

24 to an order from the chief Zeljko Siljeg.

25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I would conclude my

Page 14962

1 cross-examination here, and I would just like to inquire if there is some

2 time left, because my client would like to ask a couple of questions.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How much -- how many minutes do

4 you need, Mr. Coric?

5 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Not too many. Fifteen

6 minutes, if I may.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, wait. This could be a

8 problem, because Mr. Ibrisimovic should have one hour, Mr. Karnavas --

9 what did you envisage, Mr. Karnavas?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I think in light of the questioning so

11 far, I will not be needing the entire time. I have no objections at this

12 time to give Mr. Coric some of my time.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Proceed.

14 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

15 Cross-examination by the Accused Coric:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Praljak. My questions will be

17 very specific and clear, and I would appreciate answers of the same kind.

18 Did I ever call you at your office in Heliodrom by telephone? Do

19 you remember?

20 A. I can't remember, but I do remember that I did. I called you.

21 Q. How many times?

22 A. I couldn't recall that, but not many times. Five or six.

23 Q. When, do you remember? In which period?

24 A. I believe it was at the time when Mr. Bozic left to his other

25 work. We talked to each other then. But if any other dates, maybe you

Page 14963

1 can remind me.

2 Q. Can you remember when Mr. Bozic was away for a month or so?

3 A. It was February and March, I believe.

4 Q. 1993?

5 A. 1993.

6 Q. Do you remember -- so you don't remember telephone calls from me.

7 Do you remember if I called Mr. Bozic?

8 A. I couldn't remember that.

9 Q. Were you invited to the senior staff meetings of the military

10 police administration, Bozic or yourself?

11 A. I was not, but if Bozic went, I couldn't know that.

12 Q. We'll ask other witnesses. It's important to me to hear from you.

13 Have you ever seen a document in which I ordered something to you

14 or Mr. Bozic apart from that instruction of the 22nd September throughout

15 my time until I left the military police? As the Prosecutor said

16 yesterday, it was October 1993.

17 A. I don't think so, to be specific.

18 Q. Well, to be specific, because we heard yesterday some suggestions

19 that I sent orders to release or not to release people, do you remember a

20 single document from me on that score?

21 A. The only document that I saw when I was reviewing, actually, I saw

22 your name next to Berislav Pusic's interceding for the release of one

23 person.

24 Q. Do you think that I needed Berislav Pusic or another underling to

25 get somebody released?

Page 14964

1 A. I didn't take part in that. Maybe Stanko Bozic wrote it.

2 Q. Well, in that case, let's move on. We saw from numerous documents

3 that the issue of the status of the military investigations prison always

4 remained outstanding. Did it drag on all the way until I left? Do you

5 know that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know, Mr. Praljak, that you received a salary, Mr. Bozic,

8 Snjezana Cvitanovic, Zdenko Drmac, at the 5th Battalion of the military

9 police, the 1st or the 2nd Company, 1st Platoon? Do you know that?

10 A. Yes. May I say --

11 Q. Of course.

12 A. When we were attached to the 5th Battalion of the military police,

13 professional contracts were signed at the police. At that time,

14 Mr. Anicic did not allow me, Bozic, or Snjezana to sign that professional

15 contract, and we had, as a result, only half of the salary of an ordinary

16 guard, because, and he said so in so many words, he considered us as

17 civilians.

18 Q. That's precisely what I wanted to remind you of, because I have

19 document P 04099. It's a list of the 5th Battalion, 2nd Platoon, working

20 on the security of the military police of Heliodrom, commander Smiljanic,

21 deputy commander Kozul, and both you, Praljak, and Cvitanovic and the

22 others are on that list. It was designed so that you had some kind of

23 salary. You were placed on that list pending the resolution of the status

24 of the military investigations prison by the competent people.

25 A. Yes.

Page 14965

1 Q. So I'm done with that and I have just a few more brief questions.

2 In your interview to the investigators of the OTP, you said at the end,

3 when the investigator asked you, "Do you have anything in particular to

4 add?", you said the following: "I was always in touch with Mr. Ivo Lucic,

5 assistant minister of defence for security and the chief of SIS, and I

6 gave him verbal and written reports." Do you remember that?

7 A. With Mr. Ivo Lucic?

8 Q. No. I'm asking if you remember what I just quoted or at least

9 tried to.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. About these contacts and reports to the assistant for

12 security, did you report to anybody else, Mr. Stojic, myself, or anyone

13 about these contacts? Did you inform us?

14 A. It was a verbal contact, not in writing. And as far as I

15 remember, that was it.

16 Q. You mentioned something in writing.

17 A. Then I'm sorry. I didn't write anything to Lucic.

18 Q. Thank you. We've seen numerous documents, and you said in your

19 testimony and in your cross-examination that at Heliodrom prisoners of war

20 were interviewed by officers of the SIS; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In your conversations with Mr. Lucic, did you discuss that issue?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What did you discuss, if you remember?

25 A. I spoke to him about the work of the prison and the situation in

Page 14966

1 the prison, and after that conversation, the next day, I believe, he sent

2 Lutko Pehar to inspect the prison and see what the situation was like as

3 for the SIS itself.

4 Q. Can I therefore conclude that, after your talks with Mr. Lucic,

5 the documentation of the prison was removed?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Well, I couldn't conclude that either before we see the documents

8 and look at the dates.

9 A. I cannot answer that question.

10 Q. One more question to conclude. What was your relationship with

11 warden Mr. Stanko Bozic?

12 A. As for our relationship, it was excellent until the day when the

13 war archives were handed over. If you want to hear more --

14 Q. No need. I read the documentation.

15 Do you remember when Stojic and I left the ministry, Mr. Marijan

16 Biskic was appointed assistant minister?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember that Mr. Biskic, as assistant minister, at the

19 first stage, issued an order that you should all submit to him reports

20 about the past work of the prison, including all aspects, treatment and

21 work with prisoners, et cetera?

22 A. I'm not really familiar with that. Maybe Stanko Bozic, if he

23 received that order.

24 Q. Do you remember Stanko Bozic was then appointed company commander

25 for the security of all prisons?

Page 14967

1 A. I don't understand what prisons you mean.

2 Q. We are talking about the admissions centre for POWs.

3 A. That's what -- that's when it was established, including

4 Heliodrom.

5 Q. Stanko Bozic got that appointment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you get an appointment then?

8 A. I don't know if I got an appointment, but verbally, I was

9 appointed, and officially I was deputy warden of that collection centre

10 for POWs.

11 Q. Did you get any appointments during the war?

12 A. That was the first one I got, apart from that instruction to

13 tighten security from Cvitkovic. We talked already about the 5th

14 Battalion and what kind of status I had there.

15 Q. Did you get that in writing from Mr. Cvitkovic?

16 A. I can't remember that, but I did talk to him about it. I don't

17 remember.

18 Q. But you claim that you had an order in writing, a decision in

19 writing.

20 A. I do think so.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic, to you.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It

23 seems that everybody's dealing with Mr. Pusic from all sides, and I have

24 to point out now, when it's my turn, that Mr. Pusic was not a magician or

25 David Copperfield.

Page 14968

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

2 Q. Witness, my questions will be brief and clear, and if you give me

3 the same kind of answers, we will deal with it quickly.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have a number

5 of documents. Not all of them will be used in the cross-examination, but

6 may I ask that these documents be handed to the Chamber, and there is a

7 copy for Mr. Praljak as well.

8 Q. I would like to start off from the end so that we put an end to

9 this story about the commission that you have been questioned by the

10 Prosecution, the Stojic Defence, and partly, the Coric Defence. You know

11 which document I'm talking about. It's that order from August 1993.

12 P 03395.

13 You keep stressing, Mr. Praljak, that you were the fifth member of

14 the commission. I know Mr. Pusic was supposed to be the chairman, and you

15 were supposed to be the fifth member. What about the other members? Were

16 they all equal or were you somehow ranked one, two, three, four?

17 A. Apart from Mr. Pusic, I didn't know any of those officials, and I

18 thought of myself as fifth in order.

19 Q. You said to Mr. Scott, to the Stojic Defence, and to the Judges

20 that you don't know about a single meeting of that commission, and you

21 were never present if they met; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The Presiding Judge showed you your diary yesterday, P 00352, and

24 you wrote, I believe on the 24th -- sorry, on the 4th of November, 1993 --

25 24th of November, 1993, that the commission was not meeting. That was

Page 14969

1 24th November, 1993, three and a half months after Mr. Stojic's order;

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also confirmed that in that period, on the 5th of August, in

5 fact, you received the order a couple of days later, you never wrote to

6 the person who was supposed to be the chairman of that commission,

7 Mr. Pusic.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When I say "commission," I think of it as a collective body that's

10 supposed to meet and discuss something. You said a moment ago that except

11 for Mr. Pusic, who was supposed to be the chairman, you didn't know

12 anybody else, Jokic, Barbaric, or Musa.

13 A. I saw Zeljko only once during the war, and I actually properly met

14 him after the war.

15 Q. What I'm trying to say is this: If you don't know those people,

16 you don't mention in your diary that you contacted the other members of

17 the commission in any way from the day you received the order.

18 A. I didn't have contact with anybody.

19 Q. In your diary you say you received that order on the 11th of

20 August, and that's not in dispute, but the same order was also received by

21 Mr. Bozic; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you say there that you spoke with Mr. Bozic about that order.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But when I read what's written in the diary on the 11th of August,

Page 14970

1 1993, you said -- in fact, you wrote that, together with Mr. Bozic, you

2 would be working on it and reporting to the chief and the chairman of the

3 commission. But you said a moment ago that you didn't actually write to

4 the chairman of the commission at all, and your interpretation of the

5 order, if I understood you correctly, was this: "We agreed that we would

6 jointly remove any deficiencies in the work of officers at the prison in

7 case we observed them."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So that's how you understood the order and the mandate it imposed

10 on the commission and you as the fifth member?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you know that there is perhaps a detention centre in Prozor,

13 in Donji Vakuf, in Stolac, in Vares?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you understand that, as a member of the commission, you had

16 full control over those detention centres?

17 A. When I read it, I realised the commission would cover all the

18 prisons in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

19 Q. And did you have any knowledge or any communication with those

20 prisons?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You, as a member of the commission?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you. You said that your knowledge was limited with respect

25 to Heliodrom, and you even said that your authorisation was very limited;

Page 14971

1 is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, tell me this, whether I'm right or wrong, if you have limited

4 authority in Heliodrom, then that authority absolutely does not exist

5 vis-a-vis any other facilities, just Heliodrom?

6 A. Yes. It just applied to Heliodrom.

7 Q. You can confirm that you had no knowledge about what was going on

8 in Vares, Prozor, Stolac, Gabela, Litina, the silo, et cetera and I assume

9 you've never even heard of some of these places, the Unis factory, for

10 example, where allegedly there was a detention centre in Vakuf?

11 A. I didn't know any of those. I wasn't familiar with any of these

12 detention centres.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, the order was one that Mr. Bozic

14 received as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I didn't see Mr. Bozic address the commission or you as a member

17 of the commission in any written form.

18 A. Because we were together in the same place, in the same facility

19 and prison.

20 Q. You don't know whether Bozic wrote any letters to any of the other

21 members of the commission or whether he had any communication with them?

22 A. Well, I assume that the only communication he had with any member

23 was with me.

24 Q. Thank you. And this brings us to the 24th of November, the date

25 you mention, and an entry in your diary when you say, and I'll read it out

Page 14972

1 and quote you, because you wrote the diary, then you know what you

2 wrote: "In view of the fact that the commission with President Pusic

3 never held a meeting -- or Mr. Pusic never held a meeting," and then all

4 the people you informed in these responsible positions. Did you know, on

5 the 24th of November, that Marijan Biskic had established a different

6 commission a few days after that which was supposed to deal with the

7 detention centre?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Well, you have the document in front of you. Would you take a

10 look at it now. It is P 06810, and there's another one 723, P 0723 as

11 well.

12 Have you found the document, or does the usher need to help you?

13 P 06810 and P 07023.

14 Have you found it, Mr. Praljak?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. P 06810 -- or 80, for the record. And it says -- Colonel Biskic

17 says: "On the basis of a working meeting, I send you the names of the

18 employees of SIS and the military police who are going to become members

19 of the commission to tour the prisoners of war accommodation site, et

20 cetera." And then he says that there will be Lutko Pehar, the operative

21 in SIS and Sretko Tomic, graduate of law. Mr. Praljak, you're not there,

22 let me say that straight away, nor is Mr. Pusic. Now, you said you

23 haven't heard about the commission. I assume you haven't heard about this

24 document or haven't seen it before?

25 A. This is the first time that I see it.

Page 14973

1 Q. Now, the next document speaks about a report on the work of that

2 commission. I don't think that is something that we need address.

3 Somebody else might take up that subject, some other witnesses, to explain

4 what happened to that commission. But let me tell you that on the 24th of

5 November, when you say the commission "was not working and not holding

6 meetings" a commission was in existence set up by Mr. Visnjic.

7 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, just so the record is clear, we're

8 talking now about a different commission. It has nothing to do with the

9 Pusic commission. I mean, let's be clear about this.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, in your pre-trial

11 motion, as a foundation document for Mr. Pusic's accountability, you

12 mention this document, but I claim that it was just letter -- dead letter

13 on paper. It was never consumed. It never came into existence. But I

14 think that that is a matter for another discussion at some later date.

15 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, but I would like to know that

16 because I think that's an important point. Then the Chamber should be

17 advised. If it's the Pusic position that the Pusic commission never came

18 into existence, and never was implemented, I think that's important for

19 everyone in courtroom to know. If I hear that, that's what I hear being

20 said. If I'm wrong, I'd like -- it can be corrected.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Counsel Ibrisimovic.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] That was stated, Mr. Scott, when

23 Mr. Tomljanovich was here and gave testimony.

24 Q. But let me go back. When you received this order, you said that

25 you talked to Mr. Pusic over the telephone about the work of that

Page 14974

1 commission and that Mr. Pusic said, "We'll do the work."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After that, you had no further contact with Mr. Pusic in respect

4 to this commission, did you, nor do you mention this in your diary at

5 all? I find no entry to that effect.

6 A. No, we never had a meeting.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to go back to another area, another

8 subject. The 9th of May is the date, 1993, and P 02260 is the document.

9 It is an Official Note compiled by Mr. Bozic - we've already looked at

10 that - about the release of people who were at Heliodrom.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I just want to throw light on this document from another angle.

13 Were those people supposed to be there in the first place, and did

14 Mr. Pusic act quite correctly if this was noted in the Official Note when

15 he says, "release those people, let them go home, back to their homes"?

16 A. Those people who arrived on the 9th of May were civilians, women

17 and children, men, too, and the reason for their coming was well-known,

18 why they were displaced and the -- according -- and Biljana Nikic and

19 Marko Bevanda said that this was just a place where these displaced

20 persons were taken in.

21 Q. What I'm saying is, if Mr. Pusic acted as is written down in the

22 Official Note, was that the right decision when he said let the people go

23 home? They have no place to be here.

24 A. Well, not only those people, but none of the other people either

25 should have been there.

Page 14975

1 Q. And then you testified that the people left Heliodrom very quickly

2 after that, these people?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I refer to the decision -- adjudicated facts from other

5 trials, 109 from the Naletilic trial and Martinovic where it was noted

6 that these people left Heliodrom within a very short space of time.

7 We heard a number of questions about the position of Mr. Pusic in

8 the military police, the post he held. It's a little confusing, but in

9 your diary, I find entries in which you write and mention the name of

10 Dragan Barbaric; right? On the 7th of December, 1992, the 5th of

11 February, the 17th of February, and then in March 1993, and Mr. Barbaric

12 was the head of the department, was he not, for crime prevention; right?

13 So he was the superior to Mr. Pusic; right? In that chain of command, in

14 that division; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Marcinko was his superior as well, who was the department head

17 or whatever his title was.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said that Mr. Pusic was not your immediate superior. Your

20 immediate superior was Mr. Bozic, and it was from him that you received

21 orders, and he would tell you what you were supposed to do within the

22 frameworks of your remit in the prison; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. I'd like now to return briefly to an area that you

25 were questioned on about the performing of labour and taking out prisoners

Page 14976

1 from Heliodrom to perform labour. Would you take a look at the next

2 document, please, P 002921. I'd like us to clarify certain points from a

3 formal aspect.

4 The document is before you. If you cannot find it, I'll ask the

5 usher's assistance.

6 A. Which number?

7 Q. 002921 is the number of the document. You know this document.

8 You said you don't know who wrote the note at the end, Puljic who wrote

9 it.

10 A. As I said, it was either the commander or a staff member who was

11 on duty.

12 Q. But it wasn't you, that's the main point. You didn't write, did

13 you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When we look at the top, we see that the request is sent by

16 Mr. Puljic to Mr. Bozic. Now, you explain the procedure, that it would be

17 sent to Mr. Smiljanic and then further on. So the request is sent by

18 Mr. Puljic to Mr. Bozic. And it says, "I need 20, 100 people for labour."

19 And Mile Puljic was commander of the 2nd Battalion at the time, he was a

20 highly ranked officer?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It is my opinion, that in this chain of command, if when we're to

23 look at it and compare it, Mr. Puljic was far above Mr. Pusic, was he not?

24 Isn't that right? That's my opinion. You can agree or disagree or if you

25 don't know, say so. Answer, please. I didn't hear it.

Page 14977

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Very well. The Prosecutor referred to these documents in the

3 binders, the orders. We have more than 50 or 60 of these orders where

4 Mr. Puljic issues orders, but he doesn't need agreement or any permission

5 to do so from Mr. Pusic, does he, because in my opinion, Mr. Pusic is

6 ranked below Mr. Puljic, is he not?

7 Now, take a look at the second document, P 2638. It is an order

8 by Mr. Mijo Jelic. Have you found it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I don't want to go into what Mijo Jelic could do or couldn't do in

11 his powers, et cetera. I'm speaking as it stands here, Zlatan Mijo Jelic

12 is issuing a written order here for the requirements of such-and-such a

13 unit. He says he needs, I don't know how many detainees, to perform

14 labour, et cetera.

15 Now, the Prosecutor referred to this kind of order by Mr. Jelic,

16 and there are over 200 written orders of this kind. I did not find a

17 single order from Mr. Pusic except those notes, those brief notes written

18 down in handwriting. Am I right?

19 A. Mr. Berislav Pusic, as far as I remember, and judging by the

20 documents, I never saw a single written order from him except when he

21 phoned up.

22 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic showed you the set

23 of instructions, and Judge Trechsel drew our attention to the instruction

24 you wrote about keeping logbooks of the detainees. It was P 04367, and he

25 says nobody can take any detainees out without a written request and

Page 14978

1 permission. And that was the procedure that was respected when it came to

2 Mr. Puljic and Mr. Jelic. And I have no objections or comments to make on

3 that score. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to ask you a few questions, and my

6 learned colleague asked you the question. You saw the document when

7 Mr. Pusic was appointed head of the office for the exchange of detainees.

8 I don't know if you know the mandate of that office. Mr. Pusic, as the

9 head of the department of the office, was supposed to collect information

10 from all institutions which can be used within his remit, and that was the

11 exchange of prisoners and other individuals. So either from the military

12 police or the prison or international organisations or privately obtained

13 information. So information and facts which would help him work within

14 the frameworks of his terms of office. Do you know about that? Are you

15 aware of that, that you -- he had to undertake this gathering of

16 information about individuals?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You explained to us how the procedure to release persons was put

19 into practice, and you speak about that in the diary. First of all, there

20 had to be permission granted from SIS, then from the crime prevention

21 department, and finally Mr. Pusic had -- once he had received all those

22 documents, would give authorisation and permission for people to leave the

23 prison; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Since you were an experienced worker, you worked in institutions

Page 14979

1 like that before the war, so everybody entering the institution must have

2 a piece of paper and leaving must have discharge papers allowing him to

3 leave; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, as I understand the situation, it was like this: The

6 permission given by Mr. Pusic, finally, is a piece of paper which takes

7 note that on the basis of previous procedure the person was allowed to

8 leave prison. If it was not an order, it was permission and authorisation

9 following on from the procedure taken by SIS, the crime prevention

10 department, et cetera, and the office for the exchanges; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Scott showed you one such document as representative example,

13 P 04686. If you could look at it again. Have you found it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you just try now. It's the same person. We have a document

16 6D 00169, which is a certificate from the crime prevention department,

17 signed by Zvonko Vidovic, and he notes there are no criminal proceedings

18 under way, and the certificate is issued for purposes of release of Zijo

19 Droco from Heliodrom. And we have 6D 00168, a certificate from SIS Mostar

20 saying that there is no problem with releasing Zijo Droco from Heliodrom.

21 It's just as you said before. Everybody would give their

22 approvals first and then Mr. Pusic. It's the same person, isn't he?

23 These documents were also representative, as Mr. Scott called

24 them. We have lots of such documents, and we will use the same procedure

25 to tender them.

Page 14980

1 A moment ago, when I asked you whether it was the right procedure,

2 the SIS, the military police department, and then Mr. Pusic, you gave an

3 answer, but it wasn't recorded.

4 A. Yes, was the answer.

5 Q. We discussed this in private session yesterday, so could we move

6 back into private session now, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14981

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In your diary -- in fact, you mentioned Mladen Jurisic yesterday.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In that period, he was military prosecutor, as far as I know.

Page 14982

1 A. That's the same thing I know.

2 Q. You mentioned in your diary that at a certain point you were

3 informed that releases from Heliodrom are allowed only with the approval

4 of the military prosecutor; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'll show you just one more document. Maybe I didn't understand

7 it very well yesterday in the transcript. It's document P 06436. It's

8 the list of detainees of the SRZ of Mostar who have a letter of guarantee.

9 A. Correction, SVZ.

10 Q. I understood yesterday, but maybe I'm mistaken, when you answered

11 the Prosecutor that Mr. Jerko Radic brought those letters of guarantee.

12 But when we look at this, we see that Mr. Bozic informs the office of

13 Mr. Pusic about lists of detainees who have letters of guarantees. That

14 is quite the opposite.

15 I asked you a question a moment ago about the mandate of

16 Mr. Bozic. Am I right, Mr. Bozic is informing Mr. Pusic, not the other

17 way around?

18 A. Mr. Bozic informs who has letters of guarantees, and I said that

19 Mr. Radic was down there most often. So he could have brought it to the

20 office.

21 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Just two more questions. Reading

22 your diary that reflects the situation at the time, I think you probably

23 recorded everything that was of any significance in that period and

24 following your communication with Mr. Pusic, verbal and written, I don't

25 think you had too many contacts with Mr. Pusic in that period.

Page 14983

1 A. Seldom.

2 Q. Following all this and your testimony and the documents shown to

3 you, I could say that you are probably not the right person to talk about

4 him. There are other people who can say more.

5 A. I addressed him, and I communicated him and had the knowledge that

6 I had addressed him in keeping with what I knew.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are two questions from the

8 Bench.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: These are questions, Mr. Praljak, which I have

10 suppressed during the interrogatory by Counsel Tomasegovic Tomic, and they

11 concern -- there are actually three. The first one, very simple.

12 In your diary, it has been brought forward. You say, "We will get

13 seven more guards on Tuesday." I did not find any entry as to whether

14 they actually did come. Do you remember whether you actually got these

15 additional guards? It's -- you noted that on the 14th of August, 1993.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't remember, but there are

17 daily reports that could confirm that.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Then with regard to document P 04927,

19 that is a document dated 10th of September where -- it contains a report

20 about wounded prisoners, and I just want you to confirm that these were

21 prisoners who had been wounded not by the ABiH but by HVO people.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't possibly know who wounded

23 any of the prisoners.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: In that report, it is said that is inappropriate

25 for a Croatian soldier to do something like that. You do not remember

Page 14984

1 that report? It was shown to you an hour ago. Okay. I will not insist.

2 The last question: We have seen that there were different orders

3 saying that no prisoners must be given out for work, particularly in the

4 front line and similar engagement, and you have said that these orders,

5 particularly also the one by -- issued by Mr. Petkovic, were not complied

6 with.

7 Now, I do not quite understand. It seems to me that the person

8 responsible for the prisoners, and this has been recalled to you what the

9 duties of the prisoners were, according to another instruction, were to be

10 in charge of the prison, full stop. Now, how, if there is an order of

11 Mr. Petkovic, how come that, nevertheless, prisoners are handed out when

12 this or the other unit, an entity far below Mr. Petkovic, asks for it?

13 Why does the prison management not enforce the order given by General

14 Petkovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time the order was received

16 from Mr. -- General Petkovic, I was not at the prison because I was on

17 sick leave. When I came back from that sick leave I saw that order. And

18 as I explain to you earlier, I heard from other people at Heliodrom that

19 generals -- the general's order was not being obeyed and that on the basis

20 of approvals from Milivoj Petkovic, people can work within the perimeter

21 of Heliodrom. And those same people who came and told me so were taken

22 outside Heliodrom where there were cases of escape, wounds, and even

23 deaths. And I wrote that in my report, mentioning also the understanding

24 reached between Stanko Bozic and Stanko Sopta Baja.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

Page 14985


2 MR. KARNAVAS: That's not an answer to the question.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The person who is the most

4 concerned here wants to say something.

5 Mr. Petkovic.

6 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have P 06848 in

7 e-court, please, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we please call

9 P 06848.

10 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] The document is in e-court

11 in the Croatian version. I don't know if you have the English version.

12 I would like to ask the witness to find in this report a passage

13 that begins with the words "Exemptions in the release of prisoners for

14 work --" Have you found it? It's in the middle. It's the third

15 paragraph from below.

16 Mr. Praljak, do you see where it says: "An exception in the

17 release of prisoners for work"?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go back to the 15th

20 of October. General Petkovic's order came prohibiting prisoners from

21 being taken out to work. Warden Stanko Bozic complied and even verbally

22 demanded that prisoners be returned. Some were not returned even then.

23 That's written there, isn't it?

24 Let's go on. "An exception in the release of prisoners for work

25 was made by the warden with the approval of the commander of the 3rd

Page 14986

1 Brigade, Mr. Stank Baja Sopta for the needs of the same brigade and with

2 the explanation that the prisoners would be working within the barracks on

3 the following jobs: Logistics, kitchen, workshop, cleaning in buildings,

4 cleaning of the perimeter and similar."

5 Now, can I ask you this: Was it I, subsequently, or was it the

6 warden himself who decided to make an exception to my order?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I wrote this, the warden

8 arrogated that right to himself and did that.

9 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I read

10 here. We have another document where the warden also seems to arrogated

11 that right to himself. And the warden, in that document, allows

12 logistics, kitchen and laundry service, et cetera. So it's not my order.

13 It's his order. It's an implementation of what you will wrote in this

14 report.

15 Can we then conclude that the warden was the first to violate my

16 order because he was the one who made the exception?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all the

19 orders shown later, allowing the 3rd Brigade to take prisoners for labour,

20 are exceptions. To explain, the 3rd Brigade provided support to the

21 prison. They performed various household chores, laundry, kitchen, et

22 cetera, and I understand that the warden was trying to make some

23 arrangements that worked. And there was even a film showing 10 prisoners

24 working in the kitchen. The Prosecution didn't show us that film.

25 All those were logistical needs, that work that was also necessary

Page 14987

1 for the prisoners themselves.

2 Is it true what I said, that prisoners worked in the kitchen

3 cooking?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Did they work at the

6 workshop?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 THE ACCUSED PETKOVIC: [Interpretation] Did they clean the

9 perimeter?

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to continue. You have interrupted

11 me. You have been allowed to do so, but I think this is not interesting

12 any more for the purpose I want to follow.

13 Mr. Karnavas has quite rightly pointed out that you have not

14 answered my question. And by the way, the order Mr. Petkovic has referred

15 to, is one day before the 24th, namely the 23rd of November, and it's

16 document P 06819, but we do not need it on there.

17 But in this document, it also says that the order of General

18 Milivoj Petkovic of 14 October becomes effective again on 23rd November.

19 This is together with your own report very astonishing, because it gives

20 the impression that simply that this order had not been complied with, and

21 I wonder whether you had spoken with Mr. Bozic about this.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order of the general, General

23 Milivoj Petkovic, was of such a nature, in one of its points, that only he

24 and the Main Staff were authorised to issue approvals.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, he's not answering the question.

Page 14988

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give you the floor soon.

2 But please, Witness, General Petkovic said that, as of

3 such-and-such a date, nobody should be working outside the prison. It was

4 clear. So nevertheless, there is a document from your superior,

5 Mr. Bozic, indicating that works are allowed after all, but in the

6 kitchen, inside the prison, et cetera. But you who were specialised in

7 the prison system, because you worked in it before the war, do you believe

8 that in a normally functioning prison prisoners should work inside the

9 perimeter on work such as carpentry, plumbing, kitchen, et cetera, and

10 sometimes even outside cleaning alleys, reinforcing walls, et cetera? And

11 finally, was Mr. Bozic order within the framework of the prison something

12 normal?

13 Let him answer and then you will ask the question.

14 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I'm just going to say that my

15 client's order was not correctly interpreted. My client did not have

16 authorisations, nor was the contents of his order such that it prohibited

17 anyone from working outside the perimeter. My client, Mr. Petkovic,

18 issued the order of the brigades of the operation zones to make certain

19 requests.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please answer this

21 question, whether a prison warden was entitled to tell prisoners, "You are

22 going to work inside the prison to support the day-to-day life of the

23 prison itself"? So at the time, at Heliodrom, is that how things

24 happened?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Bozic, since there was --

Page 14989

1 since the meals were prepared in the kitchen and for cleaning purposes,

2 people to work in the kitchen, to clean the main building, the area around

3 the buildings, he would give permission to do that throughout. That was

4 usual.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems that between you and

6 Mr. Petkovic there isn't any divergence. Do both of you agree in saying

7 that despite the orders those people who were taken outside to do work,

8 whether up at the front line or somewhere else, was done by units which

9 came to ask for prisoners violating General Petkovic's order but profiting

10 from taking advantage of the order issued by your warden, Mr. Bozic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I understood.

13 Now, it's 20 to 1.00. We're going to take a break for 20 minutes

14 and reconvene, and then Mr. Karnavas will have time to ask -- to say what

15 he wanted to say -- or, rather, for the cross-examination as well. He

16 will have 30 minutes, and Mr. Scott will have 30 minutes, which will take

17 us up to quarter to 2.00. So we reconvene in 20 minutes' time.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

21 Mr. Karnavas.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, and Your Honours. As you

23 might recall, at some point I tried to intervene a little bit prior to the

24 break, because I felt that the witness had not quite answered Judge

25 Trechsel's question and that -- and I believe if I understood Judge

Page 14990

1 Trechsel, he was trying to pin the witness down into acknowledging that

2 ultimately the responsibility laid with the warden, the deputy warden or

3 commander, or whatever his titles were at times, in ensuring that orders

4 were complied with as opposed to passing the buck as it were and trying to

5 blame everybody else other than themselves. I trust that the Judges are

6 satisfied and therefore I won't go into that. Otherwise, I presume Judge

7 Trechsel would have asked a follow-up question.

8 Having said that, Your Honour, I don't believe there is any need

9 to cross-examine this gentleman any further. We'd like to thank him for

10 coming here to give his evidence, though, not without expressing our

11 rather disapproval that he's been less than forthcoming in many of his

12 answers. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, for the redirect.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I will be objecting vigorously if it goes beyond

15 the scope of the cross-examination, just to make sure that -- and it

16 should be limited to 15 minutes, I believe, not half an hour.

17 MR. SCOTT: [Microphone not activated]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, additional questions and

19 redirect is always linked to the cross-examination, of course, so please

20 stick to questions which relate to the cross-examination on the areas

21 discussed by the Defence, of course.

22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

23 afternoon to everybody.

24 Re-examination by Mr. Scott:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Praljak. Sir, as you know by now, our time is

Page 14991

1 limited and I will be most grateful if you will cooperate with me and the

2 Chamber to try to answer our questions in the remaining time we have as

3 efficiently as possible.

4 I would like the witness -- if the witness could first be shown,

5 please, Exhibit 5D 02016. And if it's quickest, I have a hard copy that

6 can be shown to the witness. It's probably the fastest way to proceed.

7 And, usher, I may need -- in order to move as quickly as possible, I made

8 need your assistance afterwards, please. If you could put that in front

9 of the witness.

10 Sir, you were asked on cross-examination by the Coric Defence --

11 you were shown this document, and the -- about the releases that were made

12 in connection with this document, and I would just like to quickly show

13 you a series of other documents, please, and this is -- well, with that

14 document in front of you, if you look at number 1, the person listed at

15 number 1 --

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I have to

17 intervene. At no point did I say that it was the release of prisoners

18 putting them at liberty, nor does it say on this document. It is a list

19 of persons who are leaving. That's all it says, who are leaving, and that

20 is what I would like to say.

21 MR. SCOTT: I'll take it at that, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, if you look at the first name listed there and you'll see

23 that --

24 Can I also, please, ask the usher if you could please put on the

25 ELMO -- show the witness the original language version of Exhibit P 02386.

Page 14992

1 If we can have that in e-court, please, because otherwise I don't have an

2 extra English copy, I'm afraid. Actually, if you can take that and put it

3 on the ELMO.

4 Sir, if you have the B/C/S document 2386 in front of you, which

5 the English language version is now on the ELMO, can you just confirm that

6 the people listed number 1 -- now referring back to Exhibit 5D 02016, that

7 the person listed as number 1, number 2, number 4, number 5, number 6,

8 number 7, number 8, number 9, number 10, number 11, number 12, number 14 -

9 if there are more I won't go into them - those are the people listed on

10 the document that's now in front of you.

11 If I can see the top of it for a moment, usher.

12 P 02386. And if we can go -- these were all people that were

13 released again on the authorisation, as the document says, with the

14 approval of Berko Pusic; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And once again, sir, as you testified in the last several days, is

17 that consistent with the procedure as you understood it, that no one could

18 be released, at least in this circumstance, without the approval of

19 Mr. Pusic?

20 A. As far as this part is concerned, the 30th of June --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Mr. Ibrisimovic

22 is on his feet.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. I

24 would like to object. If you look at the document of the 14th of May,

25 1993, that's the date. When we spoke about procedure, we spoke about the

Page 14993

1 5th of July when Mr. Pusic was the head of the office.

2 Now, I didn't refer to Mr. Pusic in discussing these documents.

3 MR. SCOTT: Well, but other people did, Your Honour, and -- the

4 Coric Defence did and the Coric Defence used the document 5D 02061. And

5 the impression that was created, one way or another, is that these were

6 instances of people being released that had nothing to do -- in which

7 Mr. Pusic had nothing to do. And the Prosecution has documents showing

8 that, in the case of virtually every person listed in 5D 02016, virtually

9 every one of them were released on the authorisation of Mr. Pusic.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Tomic.

11 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I did use P -- D2 -- well,

12 the document, but I didn't say a single word in my cross-examination

13 referring to Mr. Berislav Pusic in document 5D 02061 or his position or

14 role linked to the document. The document was presented as a document of

15 the office for displaced persons and refugees and it has nothing to do

16 with Mr. Pusic, the document that I showed nor did I comment on in that

17 way.

18 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the Prosecution submits that the -- these

19 documents were tendered and used for the purpose of giving the impression

20 that the military police was not involved in the release of these people,

21 that it was all being done by, what I'll quickly call, the department of

22 displaced persons. All the documentation shows that, in every instance,

23 everyone on that list was released on the authorisation of the military

24 police.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to clear that up.

Page 14994

1 Witness, there's a document here which seems to be an official document

2 because it comes from your director, although I see on the B/C/S version

3 that we have his name but without a signature. So it's from your boss.

4 Now, having said that, this document has a stamp and all the rest,

5 mentions Mr. Pusic, and it seems that he is approving the fact that

6 persons 1 to 19 had been placed at liberty or whatever.

7 Now, as far as you were concerned at the time, Mr. Pusic was named

8 president of the office before. What was he doing on the 14th of May,

9 Mr. Pusic, to your knowledge? On the 14th of May, what post did he

10 occupy? What was he doing then? In what capacity was he?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge,

12 Mr. Berislav Pusic, at the time, was an employee of the military police.

13 He worked for the military police.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I help out, Mr. President?

16 I think you're looking at the wrong document up on the screen. The Coric

17 Defence didn't show this document. It was Mr. Scott that's showing you

18 this document, the one you have. But when we look on e-court, it's quite

19 a different document. It's the document of the office for refugees and

20 displaced persons. It's quite a different document.

21 MR. SCOTT: The document on the ELMO is not the same as the

22 document on e-court, Your Honour. That's absolutely correct. The

23 document that the Defence used, the Coric Defence used, is 5D 02016, which

24 is a list of people released, a bundle of documents about people released

25 and no one ever said -- no one suggested that there was a contrary

Page 14995

1 document.

2 The document that I, the Prosecution, have now put on the ELMO is

3 the document that I submitted for the purposes of showing that this list

4 of people, all coming from this document, were all released with the

5 authorisation of Mr. Pusic. And I have several other documents that show

6 that virtually everyone on this list -- so if I'm not going to be allowed

7 to do my redirect examination, I can just argue the points and make the

8 offer of proof, but I have the documents in front of me, Your Honour.

9 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour. Are we talking about 02016 or

10 02061 because we've got both numbers on the transcript. If we can just

11 clear that up, please.

12 MR. SCOTT: What I have is 2016.

13 MR. STEWART: Thank you.


15 Q. Can I ask you Witness -- usher to -- this is exhibit now --

16 exhibit P 02393. And, again, if you'll show the witness the B/C/S version

17 and please put the ...

18 Sorry. This document by Mr. Bozic, can you again confirm that

19 these people - if we have the time we could go through the list - that

20 these eight people were being released according to this document ordered

21 by Mr. Berko Pusic to release? Is that correct, sir?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'm not going to do the other two documents, Your Honour. We'll

24 tender them after because we don't have time to go through them all.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, there are eight names

Page 14996

1 here, four of which have the same name, Kajtaz, the same surname. Were

2 these people civilians, military men? Were they people condemned by the

3 HVO or what? We see the names, but I don't know who these people actually

4 were. They could be Serbs. They could be detainees, persons convicted of

5 something. So who were they?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were people who were brought

7 in on the 9th of May. They were Muslims.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have the feeling that they're

9 names, are they? Olga is a female name. Emina. They seem to be women.

10 But you can confirm that based on the first names of these people; is that

11 right.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are the names of women

13 and relates to all those who were detained and mostly on the 9th of May,

14 1993. It was women and children who were brought in to Heliodrom.


16 Q. Sir, did you recall or can you recall from seeing the list, which

17 is P 02386, that, in fact, the Muslim women just mentioned by the

18 President are all -- were all family members of the 3rd Battalion of the

19 HVO?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you understand the question?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The question that

23 was asked was whether these eight women were members -- family members of

24 Muslim HVO soldiers? Were they related to the Muslim HVO soldiers?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this document, where these eight

Page 14997

1 names are listed, -- well, not in the document of the eight names, but in

2 the document where there are 19 names, 19 detainees, there it is stressed

3 that these were families -- family members of members of the 3rd

4 Battalion. The list with the 19 names on it.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT: Sir, looking at that document and based on the direct

7 and cross-examination of the past several days, do you recall that that

8 was one of the bases by which people that were brought in on the 9th and

9 10th of May could be released, is that if they were Muslim family members

10 of HVO soldiers? Sir, if you don't know -- our time is very limited, so

11 if you don't know, just say so. I will move forward.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Coric.

13 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to ask

14 one or two questions on this subject.

15 Mr. Praljak --

16 MR. SCOTT: Well, as long as it doesn't come out of my half hour,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Quickly then, Mr. Coric, because

19 normally at this point it would be the Prosecutor's turn, but in order to

20 assist the Trial Chamber.

21 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly. Was there a

22 criminal investigation of these persons on this list, these women? They

23 were 90 per cent women. Do you know about that as the warden?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Coric --

25 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Answer my question.

Page 14998

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were displaced persons,

2 Mr. Valentin.

3 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] What I'm asking you is this --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go slower. Go ahead and answer.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people who were brought in on

6 the 9th of May, no criminal investigation was conducted. These were

7 refugees.

8 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] How is this then related to

9 the military police administration?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I link this document because it was

11 authorised by Mr. Berislav Pusic for release, and he worked in the

12 military police, Mr. Valentin Coric.

13 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Did you see a document today,

14 dated April, on the status of Berislav Pusic in the criminal investigation

15 department of the military police? Did you see it or did you not?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what he carried out,

17 Mr. Valentin.

18 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Did you ever hear that

19 Mr. Berislav Pusic was a member of the commission for exchange of the

20 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna at that time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the middle of July. He was

22 appointed in the middle of July.

23 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] That's another matter. But

24 I'm asking you before that.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 14999

1 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] You didn't know about that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Is it possible that from that

4 position Mr. Pusic, in the name of some exchange commission, did his job,

5 did his work? I'm asking you specifically, the release after the 9th of

6 May. Is it possible that Mr. Pusic, having left the crime department of

7 the military police, was linked to the Exchange Commission?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if he was attached to

9 the Exchange Commission but he was linked to the releases.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, go ahead.

11 MR. SCOTT: If you could please show on this very point -- could

12 you please show Exhibit P 01773 to the witness.

13 Q. In light of what Mr. Coric has just said, sir, do you see that

14 this document dated the 1st of July, 1993, Mr. Zvonko Vidovic refers to

15 the officer for control in the military police, Mr. Berislav Pusic, on the

16 1 July, 1993? Is that correct?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel Tomic.

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] This is a document, the

19 date of which is the 1st of April, not the 1st of July, and it doesn't

20 mention Mr. Berislav Pusic as an officer for control. But if you read the

21 passage that I read out it said, either the office of the control or some

22 other function but it doesn't say that he was appointed to any of these

23 two posts. So, I repeat, the date is the 1st of April, 1993.

24 MR. SCOTT: Now that --

25 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] And he's not on the list

Page 15000

1 any more in the staffing establishment, in the department -- crime

2 prevention department as of the 1st of April, 1993, and that's what it

3 says in this document.


5 Q. Sir, what is the date on the document that I've just put in front

6 of you, P 01773? What's the date, sir, please? Is it 1st of July, 1993?

7 A. 1st of July, the 1st of the 7th month, 1993.

8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I don't know which

9 document you're looking at, because on e-court we have P 01773 and it says

10 the 1st of April there. In the English version it says the 1st of April

11 and you have both versions on the screen. So please read the document on

12 the monitor on the screen.

13 MR. SCOTT: Then it's -- if that's the case, Your Honour, then

14 I've been given the wrong number and I apologise. The document that I

15 have been given is the one that -- is this one.

16 Q. While we're looking for that, let's go forward on some other

17 things. We'll come back to that.

18 Sir, is it correct that you told us and some questions were asked

19 to you about the treatment of prisoners and some of the things that were

20 put to you, can you tell the Judges how often did you actually, you

21 yourself, actually go into the space where the prisoners were held, either

22 in the prison building or in the school or in the sports hall?

23 A. Rarely, not often, because it was overcrowded. So it wasn't easy

24 to visit, to make a tour.

25 Q. Did you know -- let me ask, did you know anything about --

Page 15001

1 anything that was going on inside of those buildings unless it was

2 recorded by Mr. Smiljanic or one of the guards at the -- for instance, at

3 the morning meeting?

4 A. Everything that was reported at the morning meeting -- if I learnt

5 about something at those morning meetings, then I would inform the

6 superiors thereof.

7 Q. Is it correct then, sir, and can the Judges understand that,

8 unless something that had happened since 4.00 the previous day, unless

9 that was reported by Mr. Smiljanic, you wouldn't know about it?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And did you raise that with Mr. Bozic on a number of occasions and

12 Mr. Smiljanic the necessity that all information be reported so that you

13 and Mr. Bozic would in fact know what was going on?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The chain of command under -- at Heliodrom, when you were acting

16 as deputy warden, did Mr. -- except when you were acting as warden, that

17 is, when you were acting in the place of Mr. Bozic when he was away or

18 unavailable, did Mr. Smiljanic ever direct -- report to you? Was he

19 subordinate to you as deputy warden, or subordinate only to Mr. Bozic?

20 A. Every order would go to the commander -- the warden. Beg your

21 pardon.

22 Q. Can you also tell the Judges, if you can, in terms of the

23 questions that were raised about the -- the condition and use of the

24 isolation cells, again, during this time period, during roughly let's say

25 May to November 1993, how many times were you actually in the area of the

Page 15002

1 isolation cells, you personally?

2 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but I think

3 the witness already answered that question when Judge Trechsel asked him.

4 I think the witness answered the question yesterday.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that he already

6 answered this question, so what do you want to show with this redirect?

7 He said that he went once or twice, which might appear surprising.

8 MR. SCOTT: Well, that's the reason I was following up, but if the

9 Chamber is satisfied with that, then I'll leave that.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: He could be asked what prevented him from going

11 more often given his responsibilities. I mean, that may be an appropriate

12 question that wasn't asked.

13 MR. SCOTT: Well, perhaps Mr. Karnavas would like to ask that

14 question or perhaps we can ask Mr. Petkovic or Mr. Praljak why they never

15 went to the Heliodrom and find out what was going there.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going ask the question.

17 Sir, at the time, you were a professional working in the prison

18 system, and everybody who knows how the prison system works, knows that

19 the administration -- administrative staff circulate round the prison.

20 You said that only very rarely did you go to see the cells which might

21 appear surprising to anybody who knows how the prisons worked, but then

22 again, why not? What were the reasons, as counsel has suggested, that

23 prevented you from going more frequently? Because in fact you didn't go

24 to visit those cells. So why not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went rarely only when one of the

Page 15003

1 guards asked us to go, and I visited because the supervision over the

2 solitary confinement cells and the prisoners themselves was performed by

3 the SIS and crime prevention service, and there might be people there whom

4 I didn't know who they were.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But we know that in February and

6 March you were the deputy warden. We know that. Now, secondly, we know

7 that you were the number two man in the prison, and when one has a

8 responsibility like that, then one should go and make checks and control

9 the situation in the prison. So the functioning of a cell requires --

10 makes it incumbent on the administrative staff to supervise and control

11 the situation there, and you said you didn't go. So what is the reason?

12 Why didn't you? That's what we're trying to understand. Why did you not

13 go?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To visit the solitary confinement

15 cells, when I say I went rarely, visiting the prison building and premises

16 was done by the warden or the commander. So there was no need for me to

17 go every day if my superior did that.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying, as far as the

19 solitary confinement cells are concerned, it was the warden who would

20 visit. So there was no need for you to go because he went. Well, we'll

21 take note of what you said. We'll record that answer.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: One would then assume that when the commander

23 Mr. Bozic was not there, you would go every day. Did you do that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because Mr. Stanko Bozic,

25 during his time there, except in March, wasn't on sick leave for a single

Page 15004

1 day.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, then I think the question that begs

3 to be answered is why yesterday, under oath, the gentleman said only

4 twice, and now he's giving the impression, again under oath, that he went

5 every day. Either he lied yesterday or he's lying today. In other words,

6 he's committing perjury.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: We may examine this question, but let me add

8 another question. Did prisoners -- did you talk to prisoners who came to

9 you? Could prisoners complain and talk to you, or did you hear prisoners?

10 Did you ask that prisoners tell you how things actually are?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every prisoner who announced himself

12 to the shift leader or the prison commander was able to come and talk to

13 me and Bozic --

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No, no. I interrupt you. I do not want to know

15 what prisoners could do. I want to know to how many prisoners did you

16 actually talk?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you a number, but

18 there's a logbook in archives logging every interview, every conversation

19 that was held in the presence of two witnesses. Among the witnesses would

20 be the guard who brought the detainee, myself, and Mr. Bozic. If

21 Mr. Bozic was absent, then it would be Mr. Smiljanic.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In this courtroom there are a

23 few of us who have quite a bit of experience with regard to prisons, so

24 you shouldn't be telling us stories. If you work in a prison as warden or

25 deputy warden, it's your job to walk around, to go in to cells, to see how

Page 15005

1 prisoners are faring, to control the guards, and to check how everything

2 is working, because if the warden doesn't do that, that could end in a

3 tragedy. You said that you were number two, and one wonders what did you

4 do there? You already told us you worked 8.00 to 4.00, but what did you

5 do during the day? Did you spend the day doing crossword puzzles in your

6 office?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for my workday, it was exactly as

8 the commander proposed it to me. As for tours of the prison, I'm telling

9 you again, there was no need for it, if the warden went around and spoke

10 to prisoners. It was not necessary for me to do the same, because he

11 would share his impressions and findings at meetings, and he wrote reports

12 about them. I think I was clear, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have 10 minutes

14 left.

15 MR. SCOTT: Sir, can you tell the Judges, in connection with

16 Mr. Bozic, did you find unfortunately that Mr. Bozic was part of the

17 problem in terms of making sure that the right things were done?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. This goes beyond his

19 direct examination and beyond the cross. This could have been brought

20 up -- in fact, earlier today on cross-examination, the gentleman indicated

21 that up until the time of the archiving issue that he had -- that he

22 enjoyed a very good relationship. But nonetheless, I think this goes way

23 beyond and again what the Prosecutor's trying to do now is to get the

24 witness to shift, once again, the blame on somebody else. But this could

25 have been brought out on direct examination. If they want to establish

Page 15006

1 that this gentleman, with all his numerous titles, all the times that he

2 signed as either commander or deputy or warden or whatever --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott --

4 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- you should do what you just

6 did a moment ago. You asked the witness, "In your cross-examination you

7 said this and that. Now I'm showing you a document." Now you have to

8 tell him like you did before at what point in the cross-examination he

9 made a certain statement so that you can ask the next question.

10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, you just -- you yourself and the Judges

11 just raised questions about the involvement of Mr. Stojic and Mr. Praljak

12 in looking -- in going into the prison, asked about that, the relationship

13 and whether they did their jobs or not. And my question, in fact, flows

14 directly from that, but it's -- it seems --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If it's a follow-up on the

16 questions posed by the Judges, go ahead please.

17 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, let me, if I may. I'm sorry to

18 interrupt, but --

19 MR. SCOTT: I mean it's obvious -- excuse me, Your Honour. It's

20 obvious that no one in the courtroom including, with all respect, Your

21 Honours, are going to allow me to conduct a redirect examination. I've

22 was given time, ever since it started, the Defence have been on their feet

23 at every possible second. The Judges have used most of my time, so really

24 it's a waste of time with respect.

25 MR. MURPHY: I'll be very brief, Your Honour, but there's a very

Page 15007

1 important point here. There is rule that any counsel, Prosecution or

2 Defence, has to have a good faith basis for putting a question in any form

3 of examination. If Mr. Scott's saying he has a good faith basis for

4 saying that Mr. Bozic was the cause of problems in the prison, this raises

5 another subject of enormous latitude. What I'm going to suggest, in the

6 light of what we've heard from this witness and the questioning, that the

7 Judges, at this point, put some questions to this witness about the --

8 about whether he knows of the reason why he was not indicted following his

9 interview as a suspect in 2004, whether there was any understanding in

10 that regard with the Prosecution.

11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, that -- Mr. Murphy has just made my

12 point. There is no way -- there is no way in the next eight minutes that

13 we're going to -- this is going to be productive. Now we're talking about

14 it by asking the witness why he hasn't been indicted and this is just

15 simply -- the Prosecution has provided -- been provided no opportunity to

16 conduct a redirect.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ten minutes are left. Go ahead,

18 Mr. Scott, with some points that deserve clarification in your view.


20 Q. You were asked questions about the visit of the ICRC in May of

21 1993 and the suggestion that there were no complaints by the ICRC. Your

22 diary indicates that the prisoners were released as of the 15th of May,

23 1993.

24 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I -- I'm sorry. I'm

25 sorry. I apologise. That was my question, and the question was not

Page 15008

1 phrased in such a way that there were no complaints. There was one

2 complaint concerning isolation cells in the report that I read out, and I

3 asked if there were any other complaints made in the same documents. If

4 that's in relation to my cross-examination, I have to react.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.


7 Q. Sir, you say in your diary that the prisoners had been released as

8 of the 15th of May -- these people had been -- sorry, these people, let's

9 leave it at that, had been released as of the 15th of May, 1993. Do you

10 have any recollection of the dates when the ICRC actually came to the

11 facility?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. You were shown documents including Exhibit P 04031 during a

14 cross-examination on an incident -- again, several incidents of soldiers

15 coming -- having unauthorised access to the facility. Can you tell me,

16 sir, were these -- the soldiers that were coming in and causing problems,

17 were these HVO soldiers, to the best your knowledge?

18 A. I can't remember that they came into the prison carrying weapons.

19 I can only remember the incident outside the building.

20 Q. Sir, the soldiers who were causing problems with the prisoners is

21 reflected in a number of the documents that both the Prosecution and the

22 Defence have shown to you. Were these HVO soldiers? Are you suggesting

23 that ABiH soldiers came onto the -- came onto the Heliodrom and were

24 causing these problems?

25 A. Members of the HVO.

Page 15009

1 Q. And to your knowledge, sir, did you ever -- did you know that any

2 of these HVO soldiers were ever punished or disciplined because of that

3 behaviour? If you know.

4 A. I don't know that.

5 MR. SCOTT: Can I have exhibit -- with the assistance of the

6 usher, I refer the Chamber to P 02316.

7 Q. Questions that were put to you during cross-examination about the

8 exchange of orders or an order first issued by Mr. Obradovic and then

9 there was a second order that was shown -- or another order by Mr. Coric,

10 but there was one order that wasn't shown to you which is now put on 3216.

11 Can you, on the ELMO move it back, the English version, so we can

12 see more of the entire document, if you're able to. 6th of -- can you go

13 so we can see the bottom of the page, please, the signature on the

14 bottom -- or the name on the page. We still can't see it I'm afraid. I'm

15 sorry, Usher. Can you go back to the text of the document.

16 "Military investigative prisons are within the competence of the

17 military police administration alone, and therefore you are not authorised

18 to issue orders for the release of prisoners."

19 Did you understand that there was a further exchange of

20 communications with Mr. Obradovic -- between Mr. Obradovic and Mr. Coric

21 and Mr. Coric made it very clear who had authority over the prisoners? Or

22 to your knowledge, did Mr. Obradovic continue to assert any such

23 authority?

24 A. As I said before, in response to one of Mr. Coric's questions, I

25 confirm again that I didn't see this before, but it was not done by

Page 15010

1 Obradovic, military -- sorry, the military prison, central military prison

2 belonged in the jurisdiction of the military police administration.

3 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Here. My microphone is

4 working now. I would like to say, first of all, that this is a

5 notification, not an order, and I would like to ask the question about the

6 signature.

7 Witness, do you recognise the signature? Is it really Mr. Coric's

8 signature?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the little that I see, I don't

10 think it's his signature. That's my opinion. Or maybe it doesn't look

11 like it on the copy.

12 JUDGE PRANDLER: I have two comments. The first one, that

13 generally speaking, on the English translation copy, there is no

14 signature. And most probably in the original B/C/S, Croatian, you will

15 have the signature. It is number one.

16 Number two, I really believe now -- I really believe now that it

17 is high time, without being one-sided, to let Mr. Scott finish his -- his

18 own interrogation, because now we are approaching the deadline. Thank

19 you.

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Judge Prandler for that. And Your Honour,

21 I had what I think are a number of reasonable and fair questions that if

22 the time had been used -- if I had been allowed, I could have filled --

23 asked them in the time that was available, but now I'm going to skip over

24 them except for a few final questions.

25 Q. Based in part on what counsel has said and somewhat what the

Page 15011

1 Chamber has suggested, and that about the responsibility of this man,

2 Mr. Bozic. Sir, my question to you is this, and please listen carefully

3 to my question: If -- if it is suggested, put to you by the Defence, that

4 it was you and Mr. Bozic that are responsible for all the problems at the

5 Heliodrom, that you let the prisoners go out in violation of orders, for

6 example, Mr. Petkovic's order, that you did all these things, can you tell

7 the Chamber, were you ever --

8 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a

9 leading question. The Defence did not suggest for a moment in its

10 questioning that Mr. Bozic and the witness Praljak were people who were

11 responsible for all of that. That did not emanate for a single question

12 asked by the Defence.

13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour.

14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Maybe from one of the

15 questions of Mr. Scott or the Chamber, but not us.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's not what Mr. Scott said.

17 Go ahead, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: And I'm getting tag teamed by the Defence. Just a few

19 moments ago, Mr. Karnavas stood up and made a big speech about why this

20 man wasn't indicted and I'm following up exactly on that question.

21 Q. So let me just ask you, sir, if, as the Defence suggests, that you

22 and Mr. Bozic were responsible for all these violations and problems, did

23 anyone in the HVO authority, did anyone in your chain of command, did

24 Mr. Coric, who was your superior, did Mr. Stojic, did Mr. Petkovic, did

25 anyone ever hold you accountable for not running the prison properly? And

Page 15012

1 if there was any such action, I assume you would know about it.

2 A. No, they did not.

3 Q. In fact, sir, in terms of using forced labour as one example, can

4 you tell this Chamber, to your knowledge, whether a single HVO soldier,

5 military policeman, officer, was a single person in the HVO ever punished

6 for taking prisoners out on forced labour?

7 A. Never.

8 Q. In your -- in your experience as deputy warden, sir, is it fair to

9 say, it's easy to issue an order, much more difficult to actually enforce

10 it?

11 A. It was up to somebody else to issue orders and we in the prison

12 only had to execute, because we were just a service catering to all those

13 who were sending in their orders.

14 MR. SCOTT: In light of the circumstances, Your Honour, I have no

15 further questions.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Just for the record, to the

17 question of Mr. Scott at the beginning of page 99, when some names were

18 mentioned as examples in the chain of command, including a reference to

19 General Petkovic, I want to say that this witness said explicitly,

20 speaking of Zarko Tole, that the Main Staff was not superior to him in any

21 way.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wish to thank you on behalf of

23 all my colleagues for having come to testify in The Hague.

24 Before concluding, I want to inform the parties briefly that the

25 registrar put in e-court a new translation of Exhibit P 02655. So we have

Page 15013

1 a new translation.

2 Now, for just a moment I want to ask the registrar to move us into

3 private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have another witness who is

17 scheduled to take four days, and we will of course observe our time

18 allocations.

19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Just regarding this notification

20 concerning procedure. We will first get supplementary information from

21 the Prosecution and then we will state our position. I hope that does not

22 exclude the possibility of communicating with the Prosecution, because it

23 is simply my practice and my rule of conduct that whenever we receive a

24 communication from them we respond.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to say something as a

Page 15014

1 witness, if you can allow me.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not any more, because your

3 testimony is over.

4 Of course, Mr. Kovacic, nothing stands in the way of your

5 communication with the Prosecution.

6 We have already exceeded our time by five minutes, and we are

7 going to be back on Monday at 2.15.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day

11 of March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.