Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16051

1 Wednesday, 21 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The Accused Coric not present in court]

5 [The Accused Pusic not present in court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

8 case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much.

12 I would like to greet the Prosecution, the Defence counsel. I'd

13 like to greet the accused as well. I can see that two of them are not

14 here today because they have not recovered, and I wish them the best. I

15 also greet everyone else in this courtroom.

16 I'm first going to give the floor to the registrar because I need

17 two IC numbers.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. 3D has submitted a list

19 of objections to documents tendered by the OTP through Witness Salem

20 Cerenic. This list shall be given Exhibit number IC 499. OTP has also

21 submitted a list, and that's a response to the Defence objections

22 regarding OTP exhibits tendered through Witness L, and it shall be given

23 the Exhibit number IC 500. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 A few points. First of all, the Chamber has reviewed the issues

Page 16052

1 that the parties want to raise during the hearing tomorrow, both the

2 Prosecution and the Defence have notified us of the issues they want to be

3 discussed tomorrow. We've reviewed these submissions, and we have decided

4 upon an agenda with the -- most of the issues raised by the parties. We

5 believe that some of the issues that are pending before the Appeals

6 Chamber should not be discussed tomorrow. The Trial Chamber's legal

7 officer will hand out the agenda once we've completed the testimony of the

8 witness. The agenda has been set by the Trial Chamber, and tomorrow we'll

9 first give the floor to the Prosecution followed by the Defence, and you

10 will have the amount of time I mentioned yesterday. That was the first

11 point.

12 Second point: The Trial Chamber has considered the matter of the

13 certification of the appeal, and it's going to issue a decision about

14 this. It's an appeal following the decision by the Appeals Chamber in its

15 majority. The Trial Chamber believed that the Appeals Chamber was seized

16 of the matter and therefore that there was no need to rule on the request

17 for certification, but alternatively the Trial Chamber in its majority

18 would have granted certification.

19 As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to deliver a dissenting opinion

20 about these two points and this will be circulated as well.

21 Third point: Yesterday Ms. Alaburic put a number of questions to

22 the witness, and whilst doing so she was invited by my colleague, my

23 fellow Judge, to ask a question again because there might have been some

24 doubts about what had been said.

25 I would like to draw your attention, and I'm talking to everyone,

Page 16053

1 that when you ask a question you should not speak too fast, because the

2 interpreters, who are doing a tremendous job, find it sometimes difficult

3 to follow us because we just speak too fast, and this can lead to mistakes

4 in the interpretation, and this can have an impact on the understanding we

5 have of the proceedings.

6 Judge Prandler several times reminded you of this, and I should

7 remind you of this as well. Why? Because on the basis of very serious

8 studies conducted in the field of interpretation, as a general rule when

9 you are -- when you talk about simultaneous interpretation, only 90 per

10 cent of the words we speak, we utter, can be rendered by the interpreter,

11 but amongst these studies carried out in the field of interpretation it

12 appears that the meaning of a sentence can be rendered only at a level of

13 80 per cent. Therefore, there is a margin of error, and that margin of

14 error, we can reduce it if we speak more slowly.

15 I must say myself that I -- sometimes I'm a culprit, I speak too

16 fast, so I'll try to speak more slowly from now on. And I would like to

17 invite each and every one of us to follow suit, because we do not want to

18 be confronted with a situation where we believed that we understood

19 something and it was not actually what was being said. Thus the

20 proceedings will be more serene from now on. That's a point I wanted to

21 make before you.

22 Let me add that apparently, but that's subject to some research

23 that should be conducted, and I can't do it myself, but apparently we have

24 already produced 16.000 pages of transcripts, ever since the beginning of

25 this trial, and if we follow that rhythm, that pace, considering what's

Page 16054

1 left of the Prosecution case, we have an estimate, it might not be

2 accurate, but for what it's worth, we could have a total at the end of

3 50.000 pages of transcript. In the history of this Tribunal, this will be

4 an absolute record. And it might even be a record in the history of

5 international justice, 50.000 pages of transcript apparently. But, of

6 course, some research should be done into the matter, but apparently ever

7 since we've begun these proceedings, this trial, because of our speed we

8 produce 20 per cent more pages of transcript than an average trial if you

9 have -- you have the average trial X producing 100 pages of transcript, we

10 produce 120 pages in this trial. So if we compare this trial to all the

11 other trials ever heard in this institution, apparently we produce 20

12 more -- 20 per cent more pages of transcript, an added value of 20 per

13 cent.

14 That's some food for thought, I believe, and we might have the

15 opportunity later on to reflect on this issue again.

16 I'm going to ask the usher to bring in the witness. Let me add

17 that we will have 10 minutes of questions for this witness by Ms. Tomic,

18 but -- unless Ms. Alaburic has not finished.

19 Did you still want to ask questions, Ms. Alaburic?

20 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to say good

21 afternoon, and my answer is that I have not concluded the

22 cross-examination. I have a few very short questions remaining which will

23 take me a maximum of 10 minutes, and that will round off what I wanted to

24 ask the witness about.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 16055


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Good afternoon,

4 sir. Good afternoon on behalf of everyone of here in the courtroom.

5 We'll complete your testimony today. There's still one Defence counsel

6 who wants to put a number of questions to you, and then a second one.

7 Ms. Alaburic, you have the floor.

8 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. We're just going to

10 have a very brief discussion and then that will complete my part of the

11 cross-examination.

12 Mr. Likic, you told us yesterday that you were unemployed. Is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me, do you receive any remuneration as a member of the army

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes I receive 33 convertible marks.

18 Q. Can you tell us, when you tabled this request for assistance and

19 remuneration, what period of time did you stipulate as having spent in the

20 BH army?

21 A. I didn't understand your question.

22 Q. You sent in a request for this remuneration of 33 marks; is that

23 right? You had to write a request?

24 A. No, I didn't write a request for 33 marks, but I did write a

25 request.

Page 16056

1 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, in that request what did you say? How long

2 were you a member of the BH army? How long did you spend in the BH army?

3 What did you say?

4 A. I said -- well, I can't remember now, but I do know very well that

5 I was there from the 13th of January, 1994, to the end. I was even for a

6 month, a small period -- a short period of time I was even in the

7 active -- well, what was it called? This army, the army that gets money

8 now, the professional one.

9 Q. I asked you what you wrote down in your request. Did you write

10 the duration of the time you spent in the BH army? When did you become a

11 BH army member, from what time?

12 A. I said -- I wrote down -- well, I asked for invalidity

13 remuneration.

14 Q. Let me help you out here. In your request did you stipulate that

15 in 1993 you were a member of the BH army as well?

16 A. I don't remember that that's what I said.

17 Q. All right. Fine. Now, may we show the witness a document that I

18 have prepared.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] And could Their Honours be handed

20 over copies too? The document is a long one, but we're just going to

21 spend a very short period of time on it, just to go through two or three

22 important questions with this witness.

23 Q. Mr. Likic, you told us that not a single man came to Stupni Do at

24 around the 20th of October, 1993, as reinforcement to the defence of

25 Stupni Do. Do you remember having said that?

Page 16057

1 A. Yesterday.

2 Q. Yes. You said that yesterday, didn't you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, in the document that you have before you, it is analysis of

5 the implementation of tasks and assignments of the Vares operation with

6 the chronology of events, which was issued by the command of the Operative

7 Group East, Istok, TG tactical group Vares 6th Corps of the BH army.

8 Would you take a look at page 6. In the English version it is on page 5,

9 and the sticker marks page 5. May we have the English text on the ELMO

10 please. Thank you.

11 So in the middle of page 6 in the official report it says,

12 referring to Stupni Do that links with severed with the unit at Stupni Do,

13 and then it says in brackets "With a reinforced platoon numbering 39 men

14 which defended Stupni Do."

15 So from that sentence it would emerge that in Stupni Do there was

16 a unit of the BH army which was reinforced with a platoon of 39 men, and

17 that they together defended Stupni Do.

18 Now, do you have any knowledge about the fact that Stupni Do was

19 defended in this way no. As far as I know, and as far as what people

20 said, because I wasn't there to know myself, it's the 23rd, I was in the

21 camp, so after that the stories going round of the people who survived,

22 they said that nobody came in from outside. No soldiers from outside came

23 to Stupni Do.

24 Q. All right. Now I'll tell you what this document is about. It was

25 the only document that I was going to use, but it is document 4D 00519.

Page 16058

1 4D 00519.

2 Now, may I conclude, Witness, that from later statements by your

3 compatriots you came to the conclusion that there were no reinforcements

4 coming into the BH army in Stupni Do. Did I understand you correctly?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Fine. Now, tell us, do you have any knowledge

7 whatsoever about how the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina planned to take

8 control of Vares? And that is a document that you have in front of you.

9 Do you have any knowledge about that?

10 A. Well, please believe me when I say I don't. I really know nothing

11 about that.

12 Q. All right. Now I'm going to ask you just one more question. You

13 said that after you were incarcerated you were interrogated about the

14 military situation in Stupni Do; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In your written statement it says, in fact, that the HVO soldiers

17 were exclusively interested in learning what the military situation was in

18 Stupni Do; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell us, now, this interest on the part of the HVO soldiers,

21 does it relate to the days when you were arrested on the 18th, and then

22 further on the 19th, 20th and 21st of October, 1993? Is that what it

23 relates to?

24 A. I haven't understood you again.

25 Q. You were arrested on the 18th.

Page 16059

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And my question is whether the interrogation about the military

3 situation in Stupni Do was interesting to the members of the HVO who were

4 questioning you already then, on the 18th, and in the days that followed

5 after that, or sometime later?

6 A. When we were taken into custody, when we were arrested, they

7 interrogated us that first night, asking us questions about Stupni Do, and

8 then that questioning went on when the foreigners turned up, or people

9 from other places. They questioned us again. So they took us out. They

10 interrogated me, and they took us out one by one.

11 Q. Can you explain to us, did you wonder yourself why HVO members

12 were interested in the situation in Stupni Do? Did you ever ask yourself

13 that, why they were interested on the 18th of October, 1993?

14 A. Well, of course I did.

15 Q. And what can you tell us? Why were they interested in that?

16 A. Well, I said earlier on what I heard from Esref and Himza, that

17 that's what they expected. They expected that they might be attacked,

18 that the village might be attacked, because we were together in the cell.

19 We didn't go out to be interrogated together, but we were in the cell

20 together and so we discussed this matter amongst ourselves.

21 Q. Now, since you are from Stupni Do yourself, let me ask you this:

22 To the best of your knowledge, the BH army, can it launch an attack on

23 Vares from the axis and direction of Stupni Do?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you explain why? Why not?

Page 16060

1 A. Because Stupni Do was -- I said earlier on it was encircled from

2 all sides. On one side you had the Serb forces, and on the other side

3 round about, all round -- all around the other sides were the Croatian

4 forces.

5 Q. May I just ask you a direct question? What place is between

6 Stupni Do on the road to Vares, on that route? Was there a place in

7 between Stupni Do and Vares?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I have no further questions.

10 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.

13 Ms. Tomic.

14 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 I'll be very brief.

16 Cross-examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, sir, yesterday when you looked at the

18 list, when you were looking at the list of the camp inmates from -- by the

19 association of inmates, the 23rd of October, you recognised one of the

20 names. Salem Cerenic was one of those names that you recognised, and you

21 said that was a person that was taken together with you from the school in

22 that group of 25 persons to Majdan; is that right?

23 A. Yes. Yes, yes, it is.

24 Q. We --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Tomic, can you please speak

Page 16061

1 closer to the microphone.

2 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. On the 19th of March we questioned Mr. Cerenic here, and he talked

4 about those events. However, there are certain parts that lack clarity or

5 some of the things he said in describing the situation are different to

6 what you say in your statement, and I think they're essential points. So

7 I'll go through them slowly with you, and I'm not going to tell you what

8 Mr. Cerenic said, not to waste time. We all have the transcript and can

9 read it, and I'll give the transcript pages. But tell me this: According

10 to your statement you were taken to Majdan from the secondary school in

11 Vares; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. My next question is --

14 A. No. No, it's not correct. We were taken from the elementary

15 school. Not the secondary school, the elementary school called Vladimir

16 Nazor in Vares.

17 Q. So what you say in your statement is not correct, because there it

18 says that you were taken from the secondary school.

19 A. No, the elementary school or primary school.

20 Q. My next question is this: In your statement you say that you were

21 taken to the steelworks; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You stand by that, that it was the steelworks?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your statement further on you say that you were guarded there

Page 16062

1 by two civilian policemen; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And my last question: In your statement you said that in that

4 group of 25, after you were taken to the steelworks, that you were -- the

5 physical abuse continued, and you described the events with the two

6 soldiers who introduced themselves as being Serbs; not to go into a

7 description of the whole incident, is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no

10 further questions. I'd just like to point out the statement by

11 Mr. Cerenic of the 19th of March -- or, rather, his testimony in the

12 direct -- in the examination-in-chief where he describes the events in

13 Majdan. I don't want to repeat it all, his testimony, but it was a

14 different location, different conditions, different guards than the ones

15 this witness described, and Mr. Cerenic repeated in the cross-examination

16 when I was asking him, and that is page 15.944, lines 7 to 9, and I have

17 to further questions. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Mr. Ibrisimovic, I believe you have no questions for this

20 witness?

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No thank you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As for me, I only have one

25 question to put to you, but before doing so I would like to thank

Page 16063

1 Ms. Alaburic for having highlighted the sentence in English in the

2 relevant documents, because thus we can immediately identify the passage

3 the question is related to. I'd like to invite the other counsel to do

4 the same in the future, because thus we gain time and it's a very useful

5 way of going about it.

6 Sir, I had the following question for you: Ms. Alaburic asked you

7 repeatedly when you were a member of the ABiH. You replied that that was

8 not the case, that you became a member only as of January 1994. At some

9 point I believe that Ms. Alaburic would submit a document, wherein your

10 record of service it is stated that you were a member of the ABiH starting

11 1993. Since the document was not produced, I'm not going to deal with

12 it. However, page 7, line 19 of the transcript, you stated that on the

13 23rd of October you were at the camp. I heard that in French. In English

14 they used the word "camp," in French "campement," and I wondered: What is

15 a civilian person doing in a military camp? Could you please tell me what

16 you actually meant when you said that on the 23rd of October you were at

17 the camp? Did you go there to meet friends, or can you shed some light on

18 this, please?

19 A. I just wanted to explain. The lady asked me this. She asked

20 me -- well, it says there in this document that there were soldiers in

21 Stupni Do, these reinforcements. How many did she say? One -- one

22 platoon as reinforcement, which I can't confirm because on the 23rd I was

23 in the camp. That's what I wanted to say.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But what would and civilian be

25 doing in a military camp? What were you doing there? Because generally

Page 16064

1 when you're speaking of military facilities, barracks, you don't find any

2 civilians there. You only find military personnel. So what were you

3 doing there?

4 A. Well, all these were civilians, the ones who were with me. Esref

5 was only -- well, for example, Mujo Cizmo was an elderly man. He was sort

6 of -- about 60 years old, and he wasn't a member. There was Fahrija

7 Balta. He was 60 or 70 years old. He wasn't a member either, and they

8 were in that military camp or whatever.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But what would

10 civilians be doing in a military camp? What are civilians doing in a

11 military camp? That's what I'm trying to understand.

12 A. Well, I don't know. That's where we were brought. I don't know

13 why.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you were brought

15 there.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 I would just like to clarify a point which was a bit ambivalent.

18 There was talk about the defence of Stupni Do and mention of a platoon of

19 39 persons. Now, in the oral exchanges, one could get the impression that

20 this platoon was a reinforcement, whereas the text in the document

21 provided to us by Ms. Alaburic I read that the defence consisted of one

22 reinforced platoon of 39 persons, and that would mean that this platoon

23 was not a reinforcement but it was the defence. It was reinforced, but

24 the whole defence consisted in one platoon with 39 men. Which is

25 correct? Do you know, Witness?

Page 16065

1 A. Well, I think that the second -- the latter part of what you said,

2 that that was the unit from Stupni Do. That was that defence platoon or

3 whatever.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's -- oh, yes.

6 Ms. Alaburic wanted to intervene.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very much.

8 Further cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

9 Q. Mr. Witness, could you please repeat for us, if I remember what it

10 was that you stated yesterday, how many members of the army of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina were there in Stupni Do? What did you say to us?

12 A. Well, I said that it was about 20 men, but you know what, I mean,

13 I cannot say exactly. Well, that's the way it was put. Approximately

14 about 20 men. Now, was it 20 or more ...

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to draw

17 your attention to what it was that the witness said yesterday.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does the Prosecution have

19 additional questions, redirect?

20 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Well, your testimony's now completed, sir. Thank you on behalf of

23 the Bench, and have a good trip back home.

24 Mr. Usher is going to take you out of the courtroom. We're going

25 to lower the blinds because we have some protective measures for the next

Page 16066

1 witness. No, no. Fine.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The next Prosecution witness

4 does not request any protective measures; is that right? Who is going to

5 take the next witness?

6 MR. FLYNN: I am, Your Honours, and I can confirm to you that at

7 this point in time the witness did instruct us this morning that she is

8 happy and comfortable to testify in open session.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excellent. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I had asked for this pause to just inform the Trial

11 Chamber that my client wishes to be present. I'm told that other clients

12 may also wish to be present during this hearing tomorrow. I know that

13 this may pose a problem with the space, but also in looking at the agenda

14 it would appear to me that perhaps the time that's being allotted may not

15 be sufficient. The issues are relatively important. I would -- I would

16 ask that the hearing be held either tomorrow afternoon when we're

17 scheduled to hear witnesses or to hear it on Friday or to hear it on

18 Monday for the -- so the Prosecution can make adjustments to their

19 witnesses to be heard perhaps after Monday. But I think that the clients,

20 at least my client wishes to be present, and I think this is not just a

21 procedural issue. What might have been a procedural issue of a relatively

22 minor nature months ago, I think now the issue is such that I think a

23 full-blown hearing in a court such as this where all the clients are

24 present may be more appropriate, and I believe that Mr. Murphy may wish to

25 chime in on this point.

Page 16067

1 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to bring this

3 discussion to an end. Mr. Karnavas took the floor whilst he didn't know

4 of the points that we selected. Among such points there are only problems

5 in connection with technical, forensic matters that have nothing to do

6 with the case on the merits. If later on it turns out to be necessary for

7 the accused to be present, we'll be open to the idea of a hearing with the

8 accused, only if it is necessary, but since we're going to deal only with

9 other matters than substantial matters that would -- those would require

10 the presence of the accused, so it's not necessary here. Of course it's

11 up to you to then convey to your clients what was said during the

12 hearing. It may be that as of Monday already I might summarise the

13 proceedings of tomorrow. Then we could have the accused in only if it is

14 necessary. But right now we don't see the need for their presence.

15 Mr. Praljak.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Let me not take up too much

17 time, just a sentence. I think that, once, there should be a meeting held

18 with the accused, too, because there are problems that affect us directly,

19 of course. We are accused, and they are entitled to know what the facts

20 are all about. I would like to present my own answer to the Trial Chamber

21 to the last speech made by Mr. Scott, which I believe does not belong in a

22 court of law, which is not right, and I need to respond to that. Saying

23 things like, "this is expensive," "complicated," and what have you not.

24 We all know that this is an expensive business, and we knew from day one

25 what this was about, and so what are we talking about? Fishing. And so

Page 16068

1 what they're trying to do is -- well, let's get this done. Let's behead

2 these people. So if we do not complete something, if we do not clarify

3 it, that is because we haven't got enough money.

4 So these questions that appear here time and again, we don't have

5 enough money, or we do have enough money, there's lots of paper, we cannot

6 photocopy things, we cannot have them translated, and also, this last

7 speech that was made, when he said he wanted the victims to be sitting

8 here as well, that is not right for a court of law, and I'm sorry that the

9 Judges did not react to that. Thank you.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Previous translation continues] ...

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Praljak. We take

12 due note of what you've just said. You have made a request.

13 MR. MURPHY: Let me just -- for one or two seconds, if I may. It

14 seems to me in view of what the -- clearly there's some feeling among the

15 accused, and one has to be sensitive not only to actual fairness but to

16 the appearance of fairness. And we are -- of course, we haven't had the

17 advantage of seeing the final agenda, and I wonder if, Your Honour, we --

18 when that has been distributed, as I understand it's imminent, we could

19 perhaps, at the end of the next witness, be given just a couple of minutes

20 to come back to this question, if it appears to be necessary in the light

21 of the agenda.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy, again your words

23 have been translated. They are in the transcript. I've taken note of

24 what you've just said. Of course, the Prosecution has a right of reply.

25 Very quickly, Mr. Mundis.

Page 16069

1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to Your

2 Honours and everyone. I would reiterate a point made earlier in the week

3 by Mr. Scott in the more general context of allowing the parties to be

4 heard, and if the Chamber would be inclined at all to moving the date of

5 the hearing, I would, with all due respect, ask to be heard on that

6 because I can assure the Trial Chamber that postponing or moving any of

7 the witnesses in the next few days or weeks will be extremely problematic,

8 given the distances that the witnesses are coming from. So I -- I would,

9 with all due respect, insist that we be heard before the hearing tomorrow

10 is moved to any time in the near future other than, I will telescope, the

11 23rd of April, when we don't have a witness scheduled. So that's all I

12 wanted to say. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Rest assured the idea was

14 never to postpone the hearing. We'll have a meeting tomorrow at 9.00

15 together with you, Mr. Scott, and your team, and also with the Defence

16 counsel present here. You have an hour to say whatever you have to say,

17 and depending on the points on the agenda, the Defence will have an hour

18 to express their views, make their submissions. Then we are going to

19 deliberate on the Bench, because the goal is to know what to do so that

20 the questions put by the Judges do not harm the -- your case when you put

21 questions to a witness. That's our objective. This is what we're trying

22 to achieve, and if we can agree all together, so much the better.

23 Of course, Mr. Praljak has just raised another problem. So has

24 Mr. Murphy. Of course we are going to discuss this among Judges, and if

25 we feel that it is necessary for Mr. Praljak, for Mr. Murphy, or for other

Page 16070

1 people to make submissions, we will allow that of course.

2 So rest assured, Mr. Praljak, what you have said has been taken

3 into account and you will have an answer.

4 We have a whole series of witnesses. We are going to have the

5 first witness.

6 For the next witness, I understood, but I may be wrong, that you

7 are not going to need much time on the Prosecution side, as -- and the

8 Defence had an hour and a half, according to the 65 ter list, but it may

9 be that they don't use this entire time.

10 [The witness entered court]


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. Can you

14 hear me? If you can hear me, it tell me that you understand what I say.

15 Madam, you are being called as a witness by the Prosecution.

16 You're going to make a solemn declaration, but first can you give me your

17 name, first name, surname, and date of birth. No need to look at the

18 screen unless you know English, but if you don't know English, it may

19 confuse you.

20 First name, surname, and date of birth, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Mufida Likic. I was born

22 on the 1st of July, 1979.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you have a

24 current occupation?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in the Vares-Majdan

Page 16071

1 elementary school as a cleaner.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you testified it previously

3 before a court of law as to the events that took place in your country, or

4 is this the first time that you're going to testify?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please stand up and

7 read out the solemn declaration handed over to you by Mr. Usher.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. Please sit

11 down.

12 Some explanations. You are a witness pursuant to 92 ter

13 proceedings. You're going to have a few questions by the Prosecution, and

14 thereafter the Defence counsel and Judges may ask questions of you. The

15 Defence might ask questions of you and the Judges might ask questions

16 clarifying your written statement.

17 If at any point you do not feel well, do not hesitate to ask for a

18 break. If you do not understand the meaning of a question, there again do

19 not hesitate to say so and ask the people asking the question to

20 reformulate it, because what matters is the answer you give to a given

21 question.

22 So there it is. The floor is to the Prosecution.

23 MR. FLYNN: Thank you Your Honour. Good afternoon to Your Honours

24 the Defence and everybody else in the courtroom.

25 Examination by Mr. Flynn:

Page 16072

1 Q. And good afternoon, Ms. Likic.

2 To start with, Your Honours, I will read a summary which is based

3 on the 65 ter statement.

4 The witness in this case was a Bosnian Muslim girl from Stupni Do

5 who was 14 years old at the time of the attack. At the time, changes in

6 the area began with policemen wear camouflage uniforms with Croatian

7 Defence Council patches. The Croatian Defence Council stopped her many

8 times and took her goods. Once she and a friend -- once she and a friend

9 were told not to come back to Vares-Majdan --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down, thank you.

11 MR. FLYNN: Once she and a friend were told not to come to

12 Vares-Majdan but to stay in her own village. On -- on the 23rd of

13 October, 1993, at about 8.00 a.m., the witness heard shooting and the

14 sound of a grenade. She hid with her family and some neighbours in their

15 basement. After a while, they ran and hid in the basement of other

16 neighbours. All together there were 13 persons including women and

17 children.

18 The witness saw smoke coming from her house and the stables in

19 flames. The house of her Serb neighbour was also on fire. She saw men in

20 black uniforms with a white band around their upper arms and baseball caps

21 with a white U on them.

22 When soldiers approached the house, the women tried to escape.

23 The witness saw houses in the neighbourhood on fire. She also saw Merima

24 Likic lying on the stairs of a neighbour's house with her two children

25 Mebrura Likic and Vahidin Likic, who were huddled beneath her in the

Page 16073

1 spaces between the landings and her body. She was just trying to protect

2 them. The witness hid behind a metal barrel and felt something hit had

3 the barrel. She realised she was shot in the leg. She made her way back

4 to the basement of her neighbour where three other persons, her sister

5 together with Hadzija Likic and Nevzeta Likic were located. They heard

6 men's voices in the house calling out for anyone in the basement. The

7 witness heard a round of gunfire and felt her sister's body get heavy on

8 top of her. The three other women were shot and killed but the witness

9 was protected by her sister's body.

10 The witness was able to flee to the nearby woods but encountered

11 soldiers in camouflage uniforms. As she ran away they began to shoot at

12 her but she was able to escape. She climbed into a tree in the woods and

13 hid. She could see Stupni Do and the surrounding hamlets and several

14 houses were on fire. After about an hour she went back to town and hid

15 with several other people in another basement of another neighbour. By

16 now the shooting had stopped. At around 2.00 a.m., the people in the

17 basement left and fled to the woods. After about two days, with the help

18 of UNPROFOR, they were able to get to Dabravine. And that concludes the

19 statement, the summary, Your Honour.

20 Q. Ms. Likic, did you ever provide witness statements to the

21 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY in Bosnia?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would it be correct to say that you gave these statements on the

24 15th of March, 1996, and the 13th of October, 1998?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16074

1 Q. And at those times that you provided these statements, did you

2 answer the questions of the investigators truthfully?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you do so without any coercion or pressure?

5 A. No pressure.

6 Q. And at the conclusion of those interviews were your statements

7 read back to you in the Bosnian language?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And do you remember did you sign each statement in the English

10 language?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now when you travelled here to The Hague a few days ago, do you

13 remember you met with myself and an investigator yesterday?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And were you given an opportunity of reading your two statements

16 again?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And would it be true to say that the own correction that you had

19 to make was to one statement in which you changed a name Likic to another

20 name?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And so, do both of your statements now reflect what you would tell

23 the Judges, had you to give evidence in full today?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. FLYNN: With the assistance of the usher, could I ask the

Page 16075

1 witness firstly to be shown Prosecution Exhibit number 09884, bearing ERN

2 number 00381926 to 1936.

3 Q. Ms. Likic, if you would turn to the next document on that under

4 the tab 9884, you will see a document in English in front you, and if you

5 turn the pages you will see signatures on each page. Do you recognise the

6 signature?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Whose signature is -- do you see?

9 A. My signature.

10 Q. And would you turn now to the next document in the booklet, which

11 is 9885. And again you'll see in front of you a document in English, and

12 again there's a signature. Would you again just look at the pages and

13 tell me if you recognise the signatures? Do you recognise them? You

14 won't see them on the other documents, just on the English document.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Again is that your signature and initials?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, in both your statements given to the ICTY, you stated that on

19 the 23rd of September the village was attacked and that you were hiding

20 with others in a basement of a neighbour's house. Isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And can you tell the panel -- can you tell the panel about this

23 basement? Can you describe it for us, how big it was? Was it small or

24 big?

25 A. No. It was a biggish basement. Well, I can only tell it you

Page 16076

1 approximately. I don't know how to describe this. Well, people could

2 live there.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, sorry if I'm

4 interrupting. I had a quick glance at the documents you intended to

5 submit to the witness, and I saw that there were photographs among the

6 documents with victims on them. I don't want to shock, you know, the

7 witness again. If there is no objection from the Defence, it might not be

8 necessary to show the witness the photographs.

9 MR. FLYNN: Mm-hmm. I'll ask her in a different manner.

10 Q. If I can just return to the basement for the moment. In terms of

11 the basement, can you tell me how you would access to the basement? Was

12 there a stairs or a step or a ladder?

13 A. There were a few steps or stairs to the basement. There were two

14 doors through which you entered that basement.

15 Q. And was there a window in the basement?

16 A. It had two small windows.

17 Q. And do you know what the basement was used for?

18 A. Well, for winter supplies and other things, small things.

19 Q. Now, do you remember yesterday when we met I showed you a

20 photograph of a room from a set of photographs?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you recognise that photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was that the basement in which you were with other people on the

25 23rd of September?

Page 16077

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When we say the 23rd of September, what year are we talking

3 about?

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: September?

5 MR. FLYNN: September -- I beg your pardon. 23rd of October.

6 Q. Was this the 23rd of October rather than September.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. We're talking of the month now, about October in what year?

9 A. 1993.

10 Q. And you looked at the photograph, you identified it as the room,

11 the basement in which you were held; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you also looked at the last photograph in the bundle of

14 photographs, and do you remember that there was -- there was a cooker on

15 the right-hand side?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us, do you remember if that cooker was present in the

18 basement on the day you were there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, and this part will be a little bit harder, and I'm sorry to

21 have to -- to refer you to it.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, if you want to submit

23 the photograph of the cooker, you can do so. That's not the problem. I

24 was thinking about the other photographs.

25 MR. FLYNN: I know exactly what you were thinking, but I was

Page 16078

1 afraid in looking through for the cooker one might stumble across the

2 other photographs. Perhaps with the assistance of the usher --

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: As we are -- as we are interrupted anyway.

4 Witness, you have said that the picture you were shown was the

5 picture in the basement in which you were, but you were in different

6 basements, according to what you have told the Prosecutor. Is this

7 basement the last basement in which you had been, or the first?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but there was a

9 fire-burning stove mentioned. There was the first basement and the second

10 one where we were. So that house had actually two basements.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It is the basement in which you found yourself

12 before you ran away into the woods. Is it that one?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. Thank you.

15 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I can't speak for any other Defence

16 counsel, but for -- on behalf of myself I don't require the witness to be

17 shown any photographs at all. It will be quite satisfactory for the

18 Prosecution to introduce them without reference to the witness, if

19 Mr. Flynn chooses to do so.

20 MR. FLYNN: What I'll do is I'll just read the ERN numbers and the

21 exhibit numbers, and the e-court page numbers.

22 Q. In any event, can you tell us who was in the basement with you on

23 this day, this last basement in which you were hiding?

24 A. I was there, my sister Medina was there, then my aunt Hatidza, and

25 also Nevzeta Likic and her daughter Nerma Likic. And there was Melca

Page 16079

1 Beganovic. There was -- I apologise. There was Merima Likic with her two

2 children, Vahida, and Mebrura. There was Kada Likic and her son Adis

3 Likic.

4 Q. And did -- at some stage, did many of these ladies leave the

5 basement and leave only you, your sister Hatidza and Nevzeta?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And at this time you four ladies were there, did either of you --

8 did any of you have a weapon amongst you of any kind?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What kind of a weapon did you have?

11 A. There was some sort of homemade rifle, if I can put it that way,

12 and a bomb of some kind, but they took that away from us.

13 Q. And you said in your statement that you heard noises upstairs.

14 You heard some shouting. You then heard a burst -- a burst of gunfire and

15 that your body -- your sister's body became heavy; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you climbed out of a pit in the basement in which you were

18 hiding and you shook the other ladies but it appeared that they were

19 dead. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you see any wounds on the other three girls?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Now, in one of the photographs which you showed you yesterday

24 there was a picture of three girls in the basement. Do you remember

25 that? This was photograph --

Page 16080

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- 00357593. Did you recognise the people in that photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us who was in that photograph?

5 A. My sister Medina, aunt Hatidza, and Nevzeta.

6 Q. And I showed you another photograph which was number 00357599,

7 which was more or less the same from a different angle. Do you remember

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And in the photographs we saw the three girls, and the girl on the

11 right-hand side appeared to be wearing what appears to be a camouflage

12 vest of some kind. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this is the type of vest worn either by soldiers or by

15 hunters. Could you tell the panel why this person -- why this girl was

16 wearing this particular item of clothing on this particular day?

17 A. Because it was cold.

18 Q. Can you tell us, was she a member of or did she have any direct

19 connection with the ABiH defenders of the village?

20 A. Yes. She was there. She worked in the kitchen for the village

21 guards.

22 Q. So she was a 14-year-old girl working in the kitchens. No other

23 connection?

24 A. I don't know. All I know is that she was in the kitchen. No.

25 Q. Now, as you went through your statement, you told of escaping from

Page 16081

1 the basement and passing through the village, seeing properties burned,

2 and eventually you managed to make contact with your father. And in the

3 second last page of the English version of your statement, you said that

4 your father, the following night, went back into the village to see the

5 dead bodies of your sister Hatidza and Nevzeta, and that he also came

6 across the bodies of Merima, Mebrura, Vahidin, Lejla, Indira, and Adis; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were these people Merima Likic, Mebrura Likic, Vahidin Likic,

10 Lejla Zutic Likic, Indira Zutic, and Adis Likic, whom you said in your

11 statement had been with you earlier in the basement before the killing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, after the Stupni Do attack, do you know if there was any

14 examination carried out on the bodies of the people killed in Stupni

15 Do?

16 A. Would you kindly repeat the question, please?

17 Q. I was wondering that -- if you knew whether -- after the attack on

18 Stupni Do, whether you knew if any examination was carried out on the

19 bodies of the people that were killed, any medical examinations.

20 A. I don't know. All I know is that they went to Visoko for

21 identification.

22 Q. And do you know of death certificates at a later stage issued in

23 respect of each person that was killed?

24 A. No, I don't know.

25 Q. Have you ever seen a death certificate for your sister Medina?

Page 16082

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could I ask you to look at Exhibit 8659. This is a stamped

3 certain of death issued by Vares municipality on the 19th of March, 1996,

4 containing a stamp of the municipality and signed by someone with the name

5 Taib Ahmis. Do you know that person, Taib Ahmis?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Well, have a look at the certificate. We have a certificate

8 issued in the name of Medina Likic, date of birth 9th of April, 1972.

9 Father's name Likic Sulejman, and mother's name Mevla Osmanovic. Is that

10 your sister from those details?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before I ask you to look at another one, can you tell me -- can

13 you give me some details in relation to the other lady in the basement,

14 Hatidza? Can you tell me the name of her father and mother?

15 A. Salko Likic and Zlatka Likic.

16 Q. So if I ask you to turn to document 8661 on your bundle, if you go

17 to the tab on the end -- at the edge of the page, and find 8661, towards

18 the back -- do you have it?

19 A. No.

20 MR. FLYNN: With the assistance of the usher again.

21 Q. So on this document, you have a document issued at the top of the

22 page Hatidza Likic, born 15 December 1950 -- 42 and father and mother's

23 name Salko Likic and Likic Zlatka. Is that the Hatidza who was in the

24 basement with you and who was killed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16083

1 Q. And would you tell me now the other girl that was in the basement,

2 Nevzeta, did you tell me if she was married?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you know the name of her husband, and do you know the name

5 of her father and mother?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Can you tell us the names, please? Her husband's name.

8 A. Jakub Likic.

9 Q. And her mother and father?

10 A. Rifet Islamovic and Hasnija.

11 Q. Could I ask you to turn to document 8656. And again you'll have a

12 certificate. It says Nevzeta Likic at the top. Date of birth, 18th of

13 May, 1965. Jakub Likic husband and father and mother Rifet and Hasnija

14 Islamovic. Is that the same Nevzeta who was in the basement with you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, during our meeting yesterday, do you remember that we went

17 through this exercise with a number of other death certificates and that

18 you also gave me the names of either the husband, or the husband and the

19 father and mother, in respect of Merima Likic, Mebrura Likic, Vahidin

20 Likic, Lejla Zutic Likic, Indira Zutic, and Adis Likic before looking at

21 the certificate of death issued in their names? Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And can you confirm here today to the trial panel that the

24 information or details that you gave me corresponded with the death

25 certificates which I showed you?

Page 16084

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. FLYNN: Your Honours, I have these other six death

3 certificates, but to save time, and obviously with the approval of my

4 colleagues on the Defence, I'm hoping that the Defence might be prepared

5 to admit the -- and stipulate as to the contents, reserving the right of

6 course to file any objection in writing. Each certificate has a similar

7 signature and stamp.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe there won't be any

9 objections from the Defence.

10 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, we certainly know -- have no objections,

11 and I take it from the silence that I do speak for my colleagues.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Murphy.


14 Q. Now at -- at page 00381931 of the English version of your

15 statement to the ICTY, this is the first statement which you gave, you

16 told you had been struck by a bullet when you were hiding behind a

17 barrel. Can you tell Your Honours, where did this bullet strike you? I

18 don't think you need -- you need look at it at all.

19 A. It grazed me on the left side of my left leg, and it hit me near

20 the -- near my spine.

21 Q. Could I ask you to stand up, if you would, and if you could just

22 demonstrate for Your Honours where, firstly, the bullet hit you, and then

23 where the bullet came out. If you could just point to the entry location

24 and then point to the exit location.

25 So starting with the entry location. For the record, the witness

Page 16085

1 is pointing to just above the belt-line on her back on the left-hand

2 side.

3 And if you could show us then where the bullet came out. The

4 bullet came out just below the hip on the leg on the left-hand side.

5 Thank you, you can sit down now again.

6 After reaching Dabravine did you receive medical treatment for

7 your wound?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did you have to be hospitalised?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long did you spend in hospital?

12 A. One month.

13 Q. Why was it that you had to spend this length of time in hospital?

14 A. Because my wound became infected.

15 Q. And after a month, were you released and were you able to go home?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, do you have any side-effects as a result of the wounds

18 sustained by you on this day? Today, do you have any side-effects?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell Your Honours what side-effects you have?

21 A. Mostly when the weather changes. That's when I feel the

22 side-effects most. I can't sleep. I feel some nervousness, and my leg

23 hurts from the wound.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. FLYNN: That's it, Your Honour. I don't have any further

Page 16086

1 questions for the witness. Just to -- for the completion of the record, I

2 wanted to mention the e-court numbers for the photographs which I

3 mentioned. 00357616, which is a photograph -- the first photograph of the

4 room, e-court reference 130. The second photograph was of the cooker,

5 00357618, e-court reference 132. And the photographs of the bodies which

6 I referred to, ERN number 00357624, e-court reference 138; 00357593,

7 e-court reference 107; 00357599, e-court reference 113. And all of those

8 photographs form part of a collection under Exhibit number P 06116.

9 I don't know whether I should for the record stipulate -- I think

10 I've given the exhibit numbers for each of the death certificates and that

11 should be sufficient. And lastly, the two statements given will be

12 tendered under seal. Actually -- actually, a correction on that. Since

13 the witness has given evidence in open session, they don't need to be

14 under seal any more.

15 Thank you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The time has come

17 for us to take the break. It is 20 to 4.00. We will have a 20-minute

18 break and we will resume the proceedings in 20 minutes sharp.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I now give the floor to the

22 Defence. Mr. Karnavas, please.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon,

24 Your Honours. We have no questions for this witness. We'd like to thank

25 her for coming here to give her evidence.

Page 16087

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy.

2 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour. We have no questions of the

3 witness.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just very briefly.

6 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Madam, I just have a

8 few questions. I think we'll be over in about 10 minutes, the

9 cross-examination will be over, but tell me, to start off with, do you

10 remember how many inhabitants there were in Stupni Do in 1993?

11 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

12 Q. Do you know how many inhabitants there were in the village on the

13 day of the attack, on the 23rd of October, 1993?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the fact that civilians in the

16 village left the village prior to the attack, one or two days before, a

17 few days before the attack?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. You mentioned that one of your -- well, was it relatives, cousins,

20 or was it somebody from the same village cooked for the village watch.

21 Now, tell me, were there other women in the village and who had some task

22 like that for the army, for the soldiers in the village itself?

23 A. There were two other women, but I don't remember them very well.

24 I don't know their names, and I don't know exactly anything about them.

25 Q. All right. Now, tell me, do you know in Stupni Do there was a

Page 16088

1 unit belonging to the BH army there, a BH army unit?

2 A. No. I was a child, and I don't know anything about that.

3 Q. In your statement you mention that your father was a member of the

4 village watch or village guard, and you also said that there were some 50

5 young people who were also in the village watch. Can you confirm that?

6 Is that correct or was that not correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The people that you mentioned, those 50-odd people in the village

9 watch, they weren't members of the BH army, or am I wrong there?

10 A. Well, there were old people there, too, old men. They weren't all

11 members of the BH army.

12 Q. Does that mean that some of them were members of the BH army?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know how many of them perhaps were members of the BH

15 army?

16 A. No, I don't know. I was underage at the time. I was a minor.

17 Q. Tell us, please, in your statement you say that your father left

18 the basement in order to defend the village; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us where the other people were in order to defend the

21 village?

22 A. Well, I think they were round about the village, around the

23 village.

24 Q. Tell us, please, now, around village, were there any trenches or

25 fortifications which were supposed to serve for the village's defence?

Page 16089

1 A. Well, I think so, yes.

2 Q. Tell us, please, were any of them in any of the houses of the

3 village and defended the village in that way?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You told us today in response to a question from my learned friend

6 of the Prosecution, when asked whether you were armed, the four of you

7 ladies who were in the basement, and your answer was that you had a rifle

8 and a bomb but that that was confiscated, taken away from you. Can you

9 explain when that rifle and that bomb were taken from you?

10 A. When a member of the HVO came by. I didn't see that because I

11 was hidden. I was hiding. But I heard it and I felt it when he came to

12 us. I could hear that. And I heard what I said. He said that one of

13 these women had a rifle and a bomb, and he said that he told her to give

14 them up to him, and she handed that over to him. And I know nothing more

15 than that.

16 Q. And that soldier then left the basement, did he?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness, I'd like to ask you to clarify one more contradiction

19 that appears in your two statements with respect to the events when you

20 were fleeing the village and taking to the woods. In the first statement

21 you've said, literally, and I'll quote you, it's on page 7 of the Croatian

22 version of the statement, and in the English there are no page numbers, at

23 least not the pages I have, so for Their Honours I will give the ERN

24 number. It is 00381932. And you say there that you encountered that

25 group of 15 soldiers, approximately 15 soldiers. That's what I'm going to

Page 16090

1 refer to. You said you saw about 15 soldiers wearing black uniforms

2 sitting or standing around Zineta Likic's house. "They were looking at in

3 my direction and they could see me but they didn't stop me. They were

4 talking but I wasn't able to hear their voices because of the distance. I

5 continued running between the trees and I reached a path that was a

6 curving path." And I'm going to stop there. Of course the text does go

7 on.

8 Now, in the second statement referring to this same event, on

9 page 3 of the Bosnian version and on page 2 of the English text. You say:

10 "When I left the village I noticed about 15 HVO soldiers in black uniforms

11 standing around the house of Zineta Likic. Then I heard one of them --

12 then I heard somebody ordering these soldiers to run after me and to kill

13 me. They started shooting at me, but I managed to escape them."

14 Now, since the Prosecution in the summary of your statement just

15 took your statement from the second statement, could you explain to us

16 whether you told the truth when you gave the first statement or is the

17 truth what you said in your second statement?

18 A. The truth is what I said in the second statement.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

20 you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, next.

22 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 We have no questions.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

25 Thank you.

Page 16091

1 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

2 General Praljak just asked for permission to put one question.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

4 Your Honours.

5 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam Witness. You said that to

7 the best of your knowledge on the basis of what you heard from your

8 father, there were around 50 people who were on the village watch; is that

9 right?

10 A. Well, I don't know. I can't remember. I was a little girl

11 then.

12 Q. On page 3 of your statement I'm going to read out what you said:

13 "There were many younger people who were on guard duty. I think there

14 were about 50 of them. I say around 50 because I heard my father talking

15 about these things to my mother and our relatives, Jakub and Esref Likic."

16 These are your words. Are they correct?

17 A. Well, I'm not sure about that. I mean I said that in my

18 statement, but since I was a minor at the time -- perhaps it was true, but

19 I think it is true after all.

20 Q. All right. Thank you. Do you know that village guards, when they

21 return from duty, go back home to have lunch or something like that,

22 whereas these people, according to what you've said and what other people

23 said, had a kitchen where three people were employed? Do you know that,

24 after returning from their duty, people would go to a common room where

25 there would be cooked meals provided for them like for the military?

Page 16092

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No further questions.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you want to have a redirect

5 examination of the witness?

6 MR. FLYNN: Just one question, Your Honour.

7 Re-examination by Mr. Flynn:

8 Q. Witness, just on that question that General Praljak asked you.

9 You said in your statement when referring to the number, "About 50, I

10 think," and the 50 was based on what you heard your father say. Did you

11 or do you remember, or did you ever see and count 50 members of the

12 defence together anywhere?

13 A. I did not have an opportunity to hear that.

14 Q. And can you say with absolute certainty that it was the number 50

15 that you heard your father talking about?

16 A. Well, yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. FLYNN: No further questions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. On behalf of the

20 Trial Chamber I thank you for coming to testify in The Hague as to the

21 events that are part of your written statement. I wish you a good return

22 home. The usher is now going to take you out of the courtroom.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As for the next witness, there

25 are protective measures, aren't there? Who is going to be taking the

Page 16093

1 witness?

2 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, yes, there are protective measures, and

3 I'll be taking the witness. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to move to closed

5 session. Roll down the blinds.

6 [Closed session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16094











11 Pages 16094-16095 redacted. Closed session















Page 16096

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17 MS. GILLETT: In summary of this witness's evidence, the witness

18 is a Bosnian Muslim woman from Stupni Do and gives details of the attack

19 on Stupni Do on the 23rd of October, 1993.

20 At around 8.00 in the morning, the witness heard the sound of a

21 shell exploding. She stayed in the house for a while and then went to a

22 shelter joining several other villagers who were already there. They

23 heard shooting from all directions. A villager came to the shelter and

24 told them to run away because Croat soldiers were approaching the house.

25 They tried to escape but only three succeeded and most of them came back

Page 16097

1 to the shelter. A soldier wearing a white ribbon on his arm kicked down

2 the door of the basement. He told the villagers to get out. The witness

3 was one of the first to get out. She saw a woman from the village coming

4 in their direction with soldiers. When they came out, she saw about 20

5 soldiers all in camouflage uniforms and with weapons. They separated the

6 men from the women and asked for money, jewellery, and weapons.

7 A soldier with an HVO patch grabbed the witness by the arm. The

8 witness saw how one soldier cut the throat of a man named Edin Mahmutovic.

9 The HVO soldiers forced the witness inside a house and there one of them

10 raped her. Afterwards, the soldiers brought her out of the house and set

11 it on fire. The witness then saw two bodies lying on the ground, one of

12 whom was Edin Mahmutovic. The witness also witnessed the killing of

13 another person, and soldiers then forced the witness and other villagers

14 into a summer house, locked it, and set it on fire. The villagers were

15 able to escape. During that night an old Muslim woman who had stayed with

16 them died.

17 The group stayed in the forest for a couple of days and then were

18 taken by UNPROFOR to Dabravine.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, may I say something?

20 There is a mistake here in the name. Likic Rifet was cut by a knife, not

21 Edin Mahmutovic. He was killed later. So Likic Rifet was the one who was

22 wounded in the neck area with a knife. I just need to correct that.

23 Examination by Ms. Gillett:

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. That is of course a summary of the evidence,

25 but nonetheless my apologies for any mistake that has been made in that.

Page 16098

1 That concludes the summary of the evidence, and I'm now move to

2 the formal procedure for the admission of two statements.

3 Witness, do you remember being interviewed on two occasions by

4 somebody from the Office of the Prosecutor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it correct to say that those occasions were the 4th of

7 February, 1996, and the 28th of October, 1998?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And on those occasions, did you answer the questions put to you

10 truthfully?

11 A. Only the truth.

12 Q. And did you do so voluntarily?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, on both of those occasions, at the end of the interview, do

15 you recall the statements being read back to you in your own language?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you recall then signing each of those statements that had

18 been prepared to confer --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- confirming that they were true to the best of your knowledge

21 and recollection?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. GILLETT: Could the witness please be shown in the exhibits

24 bundle Exhibits 9913 and 9914.

25 Q. Witness, you'll see in front of you both an English and then

Page 16099

1 following that a B/C/S version of the statements. Have you had the

2 opportunity to read these statements since coming to The Hague to give

3 your evidence?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And by looking at both of these statements, are you able to

6 confirm that your initials appear on each of the pages of the statement?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Having re-read these statements, and as you went through and --

9 when we met yesterday, I understand that you had some minor corrections to

10 make to the 1996 statement; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And in the interests of saving time, those corrections were put

13 together and forwarded to the Defence and the Chamber. I hope they've

14 received those corrections that were made in the proofing session.

15 Witness, having made those corrections, do you stand by the

16 contents of both of your statements as being true to the best of your

17 knowledge and recollection?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. GILLETT: Your Honour, I will be tendering both of those

20 statements in due course under seal in light of the detail contained in

21 the statements and the substantial number of names that are mentioned.

22 Your Honour, I now have a number of exhibits to put to this

23 witness, and Your Honour will no doubt see from the exhibit list that the

24 vast majority concern death certificates, and by their very nature,

25 involving the names that they do and the questions that I will ask the

Page 16100

1 witness in order that she is able to identify the persons prior to being

2 shown the documents, it may be prudent if we could pass into private

3 session in order to avoid names being mentioned that may identify the

4 witness.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll move into

6 private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16101











11 Pages 16101-16123 redacted. Private session















Page 16124

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I won't need to mention the gentleman's name, but

23 needless to say --

24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. Let's look at it from a practical

Page 16125

1 standpoint because I think we need to be speaking on the same language.

2 First of all, we're talking about hundreds of pages of handwritten notes

3 that this gentleman took while he was along with the two negotiators,

4 primary negotiators where he, one, recounts what he observes and then,

5 two, he has his personal notes which are rather telling, which is he's

6 making characterisation who he thinks is lying, who he thinks is

7 obstructing, who is reneging, and so on and so forth. These are actual

8 notes that you see.

9 When you look at the volume of all of this material, from a

10 practical standpoint it's virtually impossible for a lawyer to sit there

11 with his client in the -- at the UNDU at this stage of the proceedings to

12 go over all of this. It's just -- it is. It's impractical. Even if you

13 were -- had access for a week, it would take longer than that. And I know

14 that because I've -- I've studied these -- these documents, and they're

15 voluminous and they're very tedious.

16 From a translation standpoint, just to let you know, the

17 challenges that we face with this institution when it comes to

18 translation, okay, because the UN is great when it comes to human rights

19 in a general sense, but when it comes to human rights, applying it, the UN

20 itself to it's own institutions, I dare say they fall rather short at

21 times.

22 The policy here is you need to know exactly what you're going to

23 be putting to the witness in order to get that translated. Now, think

24 about it. And of course the people who are making these decisions have

25 never tried a case, nor do they know what a lawyer has to go through to

Page 16126

1 choose whether it's the Prosecution or the Defence, what exactly they're

2 going to put to the witness at that particular moment.

3 Let's just say we knew we had that magic ball and we were able to

4 determine exactly what we needed to put before the witness. It would take

5 literally months. The paperwork that you have to fill, and they're

6 back-logged. We're talking literally months.

7 To get funding, private funding that -- there is some available

8 for the Defence, they will not use that. They will not provide it to the

9 Defence because they don't consider that necessary. They will only

10 provide translation funding if you have a language problem between your --

11 with you and your client and you need to translate it to communicate with,

12 because some foreigners don't have access -- don't speak the language. So

13 that's the -- so from an institutional point of view getting it translated

14 in advance, it's impossible unless you have a cache of money, private

15 funding, that you can do that.

16 With respect to this particular witness, I just want to make sure

17 that the Trial Chamber fully understands who we're talking about, because

18 if you look at the -- if you look at the indictment, we're talking about

19 this joint criminal enterprise that takes place from 1991 to 1994. The

20 Prosecution is actually going a year, even earlier and a year later,

21 although probably I wouldn't -- it wouldn't surprise me if they think it's

22 still going on. But be that as it may, the reason why these notebooks are

23 so critical is because they go all the way up until before the Washington

24 Agreement. But, you see, you have to look at all of them in order to get

25 a full picture, and you can't look at what happened in Krajisnik or what

Page 16127

1 happened in Milosevic because those were different negotiations. They

2 were minor in comparison to what we're talking about. And because of the

3 scope of the indictment, I think it's necessary to look at all of it

4 because then you can fully understand Croatia, for instance. What role is

5 Croatia playing? Because you can see that Tudjman is being engaged by the

6 international community to assist. They say he's involved in the joint

7 criminal enterprise because he's engaged. The negotiators, however, are

8 engaging him as part of the process. Croatia has its problems with

9 Milosevic and Serbia. They say there is this Karadjordjevo. Nobody

10 attended. Everybody knows what happens, though.

11 So there you have Milosevic playing his games with Croatia.

12 Croatia is occupied, one-third of it is gone basically. It's in control.

13 They're claiming at the same time while Serbia is occupying Croatia

14 Tudjman and Milosevic are planning to carve up Bosnia. And that's why you

15 need to look at all of this in order to get a flavour of what is

16 happening.

17 I dare say in my opinion thus far he's probably the most important

18 witness with respect to this -- this big global picture. So I think -- I

19 think that Your Honours may want to rethink a little bit this issue about

20 translation, because I think that a client, an accused, is entitled to

21 assist in his own defence even if he has a lawyer. I won't belabour the

22 point.

23 As far as the hours are concerned. I'm not sure 10 hours is

24 enough. We're going to discuss that tomorrow not with respect to this

25 particular witness but I probably will have some things to say how we

Page 16128

1 feel, we the Defence feels that the amount of time allocated to us is

2 based on -- on the Prosecution and not based on what our needs are. In

3 other words, they dictate the agenda for you to dictate to us. They say

4 they need four hours and you come up with a formula. Sometimes it's four,

5 sometimes it's five, sometimes it's six hours, but nonetheless we think

6 that we need to be heard on some critical witnesses.

7 It's unfortunate that Mr. Bozidar Kovacic isn't here. He's sick,

8 otherwise I would ask that we proceed with the hearing today, but I don't

9 think it would be fair to Mr. Praljak.

10 Finally my client indicated to me during the break that he wished

11 to say something to the Trial Chamber with respect to attending. I think

12 he should be given an opportunity. I think he wants to speak and he wants

13 to speak for maybe 30 seconds, that's all. And he rarely says anything,

14 so I think he should be heard.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. Mr. Karnavas,

16 just a few words, but your client wants to take the floor, so I'll give

17 the floor to Mr. Prlic.

18 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to say good

19 afternoon. As you know, I don't always intervene, and I don't wish to

20 take part for my own reasons and my own principles in the meritus, but I

21 have to intervene sometimes. I received a proposed agenda for the meeting

22 tomorrow and with all due respect I have to say these are not only

23 procedural matters that are on the agenda and therefore I would like to

24 ask you to perhaps rethink your ruling and decision to allow me and the

25 other accused who wish to attend to attend the meeting that we're going to

Page 16129

1 have tomorrow, because I think that there are important questions not only

2 questions of principle but questions of substance as well which are very

3 decisive when it comes to this -- these proceedings. And this is the

4 third request that we have made and that you have refused.

5 The first thing I asked for was a laptop so as to be able to keep

6 my notes and I spoke to the Deputy Registrar and he said that personally

7 he had nothing against that. I asked for more time with a witness; that

8 was rejected too. And the position of my Defence counsel is quite clear

9 and known. My Defence team has just a sixth of the time compared to the

10 Prosecution at this stage of the trial. And, finally, my third point this

11 is perhaps just a technical matter and that is why I would like to ask you

12 to reconsider your decision or to rethink it and give a positive answer,

13 that I can follow the way in which decisions are made regarding my fate.

14 Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the question

16 of the relationship between this type of accused and their counsel is a

17 very complicated one. It's a question of knowledge, cognisance, and so

18 on. Now, I took part in everything that led to the democratic elections

19 taking place in Croatia. My Defence counsel did not. I took part in a

20 very narrow circle of people, and so they cannot recognise in a document

21 that they happen to be reading something that I can readily recognise as

22 being important.

23 Let me give you an example. When you send out a very good lawyer

24 or mathematician to a forest, they don't see that the forest is suffering

25 from some sickness. So, Your Honours, by the same token you can't talk to

Page 16130

1 somebody about a hundred pages, for instance, of Marcel Proust on the

2 scent and of -- or the odour of cakes, but the wonderful Defence counsel

3 that I have, that is representing me, cannot recognise in a document of

4 this kind what a request means whether the Croats in Posavina did

5 something to the Muslims or whatever. I cannot instruct him in all the

6 brigades, units, hills, and dales of the configuration of the land. That

7 is impossible in this type of proceedings. I'm sorry to have to say that,

8 but I'm afraid of things being reduced, greatly reduced in something that

9 is called society in general, and from Saint-Simone and sociology and

10 Auguste Comte and so on, society represents something which to the present

11 day finds it very hard to find answers to why, with all the good intent in

12 the world that we all have, ugly things happen all over the world. And

13 then what the responsibility and accountability of individuals are, and my

14 own accountability too.

15 So faced with an indictment of this kind which covers such a long

16 period of time and such complex social situations, the political games

17 that are being played, you necessarily have to give people a chance and

18 I'm speaking about myself now here to try and provide Your Honours with an

19 answer for you to be able to weigh up the evidence in the end and whether

20 actions of one kind merit a sentence and, if so, what kind of sentence

21 should be meted out. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President, and I am aware of time and

24 the need, I believe, to take a break if we're going to continue it, either

25 recess for the evening or continue, but let me just say two points very

Page 16131

1 quickly about the Okun diaries and the need for translations thereof.

2 As I pointed out yesterday, these diaries have been the subject of

3 admission into evidence in at least three other cases before this Tribunal

4 and in none of those cases has any Trial Chamber ever ordered the full

5 translation of those diaries, and again these other cases also have

6 involved very senior level political and/or military leaders.

7 Second. Second, as Mr. Karnavas indicated yesterday, and I don't

8 know perhaps if this was an error in the transcript or the translation,

9 perhaps, but on pages 78 and 79 of yesterday's hearing, Mr. Karnavas

10 indicated that he would be tendering into evidence all of the diaries at

11 which point it would seem that the logical way to proceed in that event

12 would be, in effect, that would constitute a waiver of the right of the

13 accused to have those diaries in their own language if the Defence is

14 unable to produce one. If a Defence counsel stands up and tenders

15 hundreds of pages of material that's not available in a language that the

16 accused understands, then that right is being waived at least with respect

17 to that one Defence team, if, in fact, they're unable to get -- for

18 resource reasons to get those materials translated. If Mr. Karnavas has

19 already decided that they're all relevant and that they all need to come

20 in, then that one possible avenue would be to consider that a waiver of

21 the right to have that material presented because, of course, a Defence

22 team or an accused or can waive many of the rights that exist in criminal

23 proceedings.

24 I will leave it at that because of time constraints. I'm not sure

25 if Chambers wants further submissions on this or on any of the other

Page 16132

1 issues that have been -- that have arisen, but I am also aware of the fact

2 that we're rapidly to the point where we need to either adjourn or a

3 recess because of the need to change the tapes.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Just very briefly, Your Honour. The first point --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute, Mr. Karnavas.

6 I'll give you the floor later on. Let me just say a few words.

7 It seems to me, but I don't have the specific references to the

8 Trial Chamber or Appeals Chamber's decisions I'm thinking of, but I

9 believe as for translations that when an accused person, whatever his

10 language, when an accused person is represented by counsel, the Statute

11 and the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that these documents

12 should be provided either in English or in French. I believe that's

13 well-established case law at this Tribunal.

14 However, when you have an accused defending himself, if memory

15 serves me right it's -- we have Seselj and Milosevic who did that, then in

16 that case the accused is entitled to receive the documents in his own

17 mother-tongue.

18 As for the Milosevic, and I followed what was going on in that

19 case, of course, as everyone else, apparently the diary that we are

20 talking about, the ambassador diary, was provided to him in English. I'm

21 not sure. Some of the passages might have been translated into his own

22 language and he and he organised his cross-examination on the basis of

23 what he receive. That's all I can say.

24 Mr. Karnavas.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. As far as Milosevic goes, first, he

Page 16133

1 didn't recognise the Tribunal although he showed up to the court every

2 day, and he had an armada of staff working for him behind the scenes as

3 well, helping him out. Plus, he read English very well and spoke

4 English. He ad worked in the United States and, of course, during the

5 negotiations, they were done in English as far as I understand.

6 But getting back to Mr. Mundis's two arguments, first, the first

7 one is not an argument to say, well, it was admitted -- the diaries were

8 admitted in part in three other trials and therefore none of the Trial

9 Chambers requested that they be translated and therefore it's not

10 necessary in this case.

11 First of all, I don't know what if any requests were made in those

12 other cases. That's number one.

13 Number two, Mr. Praljak, as well as others, are heavily engaged in

14 assisting in their own defence by -- by reading the documents and going

15 over them with their clients, and I dare say that an accused is entitled

16 to be able to read documents in his own language particularly when they go

17 to a critical aspect of the case. But in any event, I think the first

18 argument is -- is not much of an argument.

19 As far as the second argument that Mr. Mundis said, i don't -- I'm

20 unaware of any jurisprudence, now, maybe there's some out there and

21 Mr. Mundis is very bright and writes quite a bit about the jurisprudence

22 of the Tribunal. Perhaps he could cite us some -- some jurisprudence. It

23 says that once I tender the document in its entirety, there is some sort

24 of a waiver. I'm unaware of that. No, if he -- what he meant to say was,

25 it could be viewed as a waiver, I think that's open to debate. But as far

Page 16134

1 as whether in fact it is a waiver I'm unaware of any jurisprudence and of

2 course shame on me if I'm ignorant of the case law but if there is some

3 case law I certainly would like to look it up.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Two points very quickly. I believe what I said or

5 what I intended to say, at least, was it could be constituted or construed

6 as a waiver; as any virtually any other right can be waived, the right to

7 remain silent is waived when an accused takes the stand. The right to

8 receive material in the language the accused understands can be waived if

9 that accused's counsel tenders that material without having it in the

10 language the accused understands, and that could be construed or

11 constituted as a waiver.

12 Let me say one other point though about the material that the

13 Prosecution has placed on the exhibit list that comes from the Okun

14 diaries, because I wasn't want there to be any confusion about this.

15 Those excerpts which are on the Prosecution list that come from Ambassador

16 Okun's diaries have been translated into the language of the accused or is

17 in the process of being translated into the language of the accused. We

18 are not talking about tendering into evidence excerpts from the diaries

19 which have not been translated. The issue here is whether there's some

20 requirement to translate those remaining portions of the diary which the

21 Prosecution is not intending to use, and our position is: If the Defence

22 wants to use those remaining parts, then they have an obligation to get

23 those parts translated or, if they want to use them without the benefit of

24 having them all fully translated, that could be construed as a waiver of

25 the right of the accused to have that material in their own language.

Page 16135

1 But I want to be very clear that what we're talking about is

2 excerpts from the diaries, those excerpts will be available in the

3 language of the accused when they are tendered into evidence at the

4 hearings involving Ambassador Okun.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Listen, we have to take a break

6 now. There are only a few minutes of tape left. The Judges need to

7 consider these matters immediately, because we might be able to find a

8 solution that is agreeable to everyone, but we need to discuss this. It's

9 10 to 6.00. We'll resume at 10 past 6.00 for a very short time, but we

10 will resume in 20 minutes' time.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is

14 resumed. Let me first give the floor to the registrar because he has a

15 few IC numbers to give us.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Just very

17 briefly. OTP has submitted a list of documents to be tendered through

18 Witness DG. The list shall be given the Exhibit number IC 502. OTP has

19 also submitted a list of documents to be tendered through Witness Mufid

20 Likic. This list shall be given Exhibit number IC 503. And finally, OTP

21 has submitted a list of documents to be tendered through Witness Mufida

22 Likic. This list shall be given Exhibit number IC 504. Thank you very

23 much.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

25 Mr. Registrar.

Page 16136

1 During the break that took slightly longer than I expected, the

2 Judges considered the two issues raised by the Defence. The first point

3 was related to the presence of the accused persons in the courtroom when

4 we deal with the issues in the agenda that was handed out to the parties

5 this afternoon, and the second point was related to the issue of the

6 translation of the diaries, of the entire diaries of Ambassador Okun.

7 First oral decision related to the presence of the accused persons

8 in the courtroom to take part in the hearing. The Trial Chamber stands by

9 the decision it has already taken. In other words, tomorrow in Courtroom

10 II at 9.00 a.m., a hearing will be held under Rule 65 ter with the

11 Prosecution and Defence counsel. Tomorrow the Prosecution will have one

12 hour to make their submissions, and the Defence will also have 60 minutes.

13 In order to respond to the request made by the accused, we've

14 decided that as quickly as possible, in the next few days, we'll have a

15 hearing dedicated to the same issue, and during that hearing the accused

16 persons will be able to take the floor in order to tell us in

17 individually, if they wish to do so, what their point of view is, but we

18 need to specify that beforehand they will have been informed by Defence

19 counsel who will notify them of what was said at the hearing that will

20 take place tomorrow morning.

21 In other words, we grant the request made by the accused persons.

22 They will participate but another day and as quickly as possible. If a

23 witness does not show up, for example, we'll do it immediately because it

24 will take about one hour, or, alternatively, we'll hold an additional

25 hearing if the schedule allows us to do so. So rest assured, gentlemen,

Page 16137

1 we will listen to you.

2 This is the first decision.

3 Second oral ruling, it relates to the translation of the documents

4 from Ambassador Okun's personal diaries. After having heard the Defence,

5 Mr. Praljak, Mr. Prlic, as well as the Prosecution in the person of

6 Mr. Mundis, after deliberating on that point the Trial Chamber has decided

7 to maintain the decision it had taken with respect to the translation of

8 the documents. We've already read out paragraphs 4 to 5 of the decision,

9 and I'd like to refer you to that decision. That settles the issue

10 according to us.

11 We do not intend to alter, to modify the decision in any way, and

12 this decision was taken by the Judges unanimously.

13 It's a quarter past 6.00. The hearing stands adjourned. We'll

14 reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00 a.m., with the Prosecution and Defence

15 counsel, and tomorrow afternoon at 2.15 we'll reconvene yet again with the

16 accused present for the next witness. Thank you very much.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.17 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

19 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.