1 Thursday, 22 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The Accused Coric not present in court]
4 [The Accused Pusic not present in court]
5 [The Accused Petkovic not present in court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 For the second time today I'd like to greet everyone here in this
13 courtroom. I would also like to greet Mr. Prlic, Mr. Praljak, and
14 Mr. Stojic who are here today, and their three colleagues have been taken
15 ill. There is an epidemic of influenza currently going on in
16 Scheveningen, and I'd like to wish them all well, to wish Mr. Petkovic
17 well. They will have all the weekend to get better. We will continue
18 the proceedings with a witness, but I first would like to give the
19 registrar -- we need two IC numbers.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. OTP has
21 submitted a list of documents to be tendered through Witness DH. The list
22 submitted by OTP shall be given Exhibit number IC 505. Finally, OTP has
23 submitted a response to Defence objections regarding OTP exhibits tendered
24 through Witness Salem Ceranic, and it will shall be given IC number 506.
25 Thank you, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Yes, Mr. Scott.
3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if we could just go to private session
4 for a moment, please, on the next witness.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session.
6 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 WITNESS: FERIDA LIKIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. First, I
11 would like to make sure that you can hear me in language that you
12 understand. If that's case, please tell me that you can hear me and
13 understand me.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you are a Prosecution
16 witness. Before asking you to read the solemn declaration, can you give
17 me your first name, last name, and date of birth.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Ferida Likic, born on the 8th
19 of April, 1955, in the village of Lankovic [as interpreted], near Olovo.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have an occupation,
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm just a housewife.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified before
24 a court of law about the facts that took place -- or the events that took
25 place in your country or is it the first time that you're testifying about
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, once in Zenica, but not
3 that much because I'm a sickly woman. I couldn't really take it.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You testified before
5 the court of Zenica. Do you know the name of the case in which you
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Against the HVO. Oh, you mean about
8 my testimony in Zenica or the statement I gave in Zenica?
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the court in Zenica. You
10 testified in a trial against whom?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Against Como Ilijasevic, Dominik
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please read the
14 solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. You may sit
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me give you few words of
21 explanation. You will have to answer questions put to you by Mr. Scott.
22 You've met him already, of course. Following the questions of Mr. Scott,
23 the Defence that is sitting on your left, and the accused as well, may
24 ask you further questions. The three Judges sitting before you may also
25 put a number of questions to you, but from now on we prefer to wait for
1 both parties to put questions to the witnesses before asking our
2 questions, to allow both parties to develop their arguments through their
3 own questions.
4 If at any time during your testimony you feel unwell, please do
5 not hesitate to tell it us that you want a break, to rest a little bit.
6 That's the way we're going to proceed this afternoon.
7 I'm now going to give the floor to Mr. Scott, who will lead the
9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Examination by Mr. Scott:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Likic.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. Madam, just a -- very quickly cover some background material and
14 from -- we'll go into private session -- I'll ask to go into private
15 session in a moment or two, but again for the record, madam, your name is
16 Ferida Likic. You were born on the 8th of April, 1955, Milankovici, a
17 village in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Olovo municipality; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And is it correct that you married Mehmed Likic --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- in 1975 and lived together with him in Stupni Do?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And your husband was a mason by trade?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, can we go into private session for just a
4 couple of questions, please.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please.
6 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. SCOTT:
19 Q. Ma'am, just again additional background. In 1993, you and your
20 family lived in the village of Stupni Do in Vares municipality; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The particular part of the village which might be described as a
24 small group of six houses, was there a particular name or term for that
25 particular part of the village that you can tell the Judges?
1 A. Yes. Perica Do. That's what it was called.
2 Q. And in general, this may come up in a number of contexts, but I'm
3 just going to ask you now, madam, was your husband during this time or at
4 any time, but in particular 1993, was your husband ever a member of the
5 Territorial Defence or the ABiH or any military force or organisation?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, is it correct, madam, that Stupni Do consisted in 1993 of
8 approximately 60 houses, not including stables and barns?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. At sometime in the early 1990s had a certain number of houses in
11 the village been occupied by Serbs or Serb families?
12 A. Serb families lived there in 10 houses in the village.
13 Q. And at some point in time in the early 1990s, did the Serb
14 families leave the village?
15 A. The Serbs left the village in 1992.
16 Q. Can you briefly describe to the Judges the circumstances in which
17 the Serbs left the village, how that came about and how it happened?
18 A. The Serbs left the village because the HVO came, disarmed them,
19 and then they left in 1992.
20 Q. And can you tell us whether there were any Croat families or Croat
21 persons living in the village of Stupni Do in 1993?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was there a woman who lived in the village, a married name, Ana
25 A. Yes. Yes. Just this one Ana Likic.
1 Q. And she was a Croat and her -- what was her maiden name, please?
2 A. Mrljic was her last name, Ana Mrljic, and her married name is Ana
4 Q. And was she married to a Muslim in the village named Alija Likic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And is it correct, madam, that then, as you've described it, all
7 other persons living in Stupni Do as of -- during 1993, except for Ana
8 Likic, were all Muslim?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether you recall a time in about June
11 1993 when a number of Croats arrived in the Vares area from Kakanj?
12 A. Yes. Their refugees came. Many of them came to Vares. I don't
13 know the exact figure, but Vares was full of refugees from Kakanj.
14 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, whether the arrival and presence
15 of the Croats from Kakanj made the local relationships between the Croats
16 and the Muslims better, worse, or did they stay the same?
17 A. Well, they got worse, unfortunately. A worsening was felt.
18 Q. Can you just describe to the Judges briefly some of the ways in
19 which that -- some of the ways in which you saw that being carried out,
20 conduct or behaviour that you may have observed or things that were said?
21 A. Well, this is the way it was: I was a housewife. I had my own
22 two cows. I produce dairy products. I went to the marketplace to sell my
23 products every Saturday, and it was obvious that they were taunting our
24 women. They were threatened, our women were, and we felt some fear.
25 Q. All right. And madam, just so the record is clear, when you said
1 you went to town, are you talking about the town of Vares?
2 A. Vares, yes. That's nearby. It's two kilometres away from my
3 village. Two kilometres and 700 metres, that is.
4 Q. Very well. Now, I want to direct your attention, please, to
5 around the same time that the Croats arrived from Kakanj. Was an
6 ultimatum given to the Muslims in the village of Stupni Do? In June
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell the Judges about that?
10 A. Well, we got this ultimatum seven days earlier. I don't remember
11 the exact dates that some unit of ours, a unit of the army, should
12 surrender its weapons. So that's when we got this ultimatum.
13 Q. And do you recall how you came to know of the ultimatum?
14 A. I remember Husnija Mahmutovic was president of the local commune,
15 and he informed the villagers that we had been presented with an
16 ultimatum. Since my husband was over there at that meeting, he found out
17 that this ultimatum had been presented, and he told us that there was an
19 Q. And did you and your family do anything in response to this
21 A. Yes. From his childhood my husband had a heart problem. He was a
22 disabled person. He had also suffered an accident in the mine. He was in
23 no army, and he was worried about his children, his daughter, and he tried
24 to get them over to Strijezovo to his sister's house. So then all the
25 people moved out of the village because of this ultimatum.
1 Q. Can you tell the Judges approximately, and just as best you can,
2 the approximate percentage or number of the people, the Stupni Do
3 residents, who left the village around that time?
4 A. 80 per cent. Perhaps even more than that.
5 Q. And can you tell the Judges, did that include men, women, and
6 children or not?
7 A. Elderly people, women, children, everybody.
8 Q. And how did these people -- how did the villagers leave the
9 village, by what means?
10 A. They left through the woods, because they wouldn't let us out
11 without some kind of passes, so then we all had to go through the woods.
12 Q. Can you explain that a bit further? You've made -- mentioned a
13 couple of things. You said you had to have passes, and in order to
14 essentially avoid that requirement, is what I understand you to be
15 saying --
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Scott, would you allow me to clarify a
18 MR. SCOTT: Of course.
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, you have said everybody left the
20 village, and then you gave the example of elderly, women, children. You
21 did not say anything about men of medium age, let's say between 20 and 50,
22 60. Did they also leave or did they stay?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The men stayed, and a few of us
24 women, five of us, to tend to the cattle, to milk the cows, things like
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
2 MR. SCOTT:
3 Q. And as these events unfolded, ma'am, can you tell us, did you come
4 to know about a meeting involving Mr. Husnija Mahmutovic and a Croat man
5 from Vares?
6 A. Yes, because Husnija lived across the street from my house.
7 Q. And what did you learn about this meeting, and who was involved in
8 that meeting?
9 A. A gentleman came called Pipe, and he called Husnija Mahmutovic to
10 come and attend a meeting in Vares, and Himzo Likic too. Since we women
11 were afraid, there were only five of us in the village, we were terrified.
12 We didn't let them go, but they said, "It's better for us to go than all
13 of you." So they went to Vares to this meeting.
14 Q. Now, just to be clear, you mentioned I think a few moments ago,
15 Mr. Mahmutovic was the village president; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And is that why he was involved in this meeting, as far as you
19 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. He communicated with these people, and among
20 the local communes, and I guess that Pipe was the one communicating with
21 him, as far as I know, as far as I managed to hear.
22 Q. And the other member of the village who you named, Himzo Likic,
23 did he hold any particular position or function the village that caused
24 him to be involved in this?
25 A. I don't know whether he had a position in his own right or whether
1 he was accompanying someone. I don't know.
2 Q. And do I understand you correctly to say, then, that
3 Mr. Mahmutovic and Mr. Likic then in fact did go down to the town of Vares
4 and meet with the HVO authorities there?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And can you tell the Judges whether Mr. Mahmutovic and Mr. Likic
7 came back to the village later that afternoon with someone else?
8 A. In the afternoon they returned to the village with Mr. Pejcinovic
9 and some soldiers of theirs from Vares. I don't know whether they were
10 policemen or soldiers. I'm not knowledgeable about this kind of thing. I
11 am a housewife. I didn't even give it any thought.
12 So they came to the village, and they went to Sevko Likic. They
13 sat there for a while, had a meeting. We waited there for them to come
14 out in the street. We were waiting to find out what would happen. They
15 went out. Mr. Pejcinovic asked us, "Why is it so quiet in this village?
16 What's going on?" And we said that we moved out our population, that
17 there were very few of us left, that we were afraid that something would
18 happen to us. And he guaranteed to us, and everybody gave us guarantees.
19 They all persuaded us to get the population back, saying that we would be
20 safe. We were so pleased. We were so happy. We considered this to be
21 the truth, 100 per cent, and within 15 days we returned the entire
22 population to the village, 100 per cent of it.
23 Q. All right. Now, in moving forward from that, can I ask you that
24 later on in the summer, as the summer continued, can you tell us whether
25 any of the Muslim men from Stupni Do were arrested or detained by any
1 local authorities?
2 A. Yes. When our people went down to Vares to buy something they
3 would be brought in and then released, and they arrested Mufid Likic in a
4 cafe, then they detained him for about two days, and then he fled or was
5 released, but he came all beaten up, and then we all went to see him. His
6 face was black and blue, swollen. He was beaten in the chest too. So
7 that's what it was like. All sorts of things were going on.
8 Q. Can you remember if anything happened to a man named Rifet Likic
9 during that time?
10 A. Yes. He was a friend of my brother-in-law. He was a young man of
11 25 years. He had had four or five surgeries on his legs. He was a
12 disabled person, didn't harm anybody, was a good person, a kind person.
13 They took him to Vares. They interrogated him, wrote something down and
14 later on released him to go home.
15 Q. The time when you mentioned a moment ago Mufid Likic being
16 arrested and beaten, can you tell us the approximate -- if you remember
17 the month that that happened in 1993?
18 A. Well, not exactly. July or August, thereabout. At around that
19 time. I don't know the dates. I never thought about the dates. I never
20 even thought that I would get here. I never thought that the truth would
21 be investigated here so that the people in the world would know.
22 Q. Let me ask you this: At sometime in September of 1993, was a
23 check-point erected on one of the roads from Vares-Majdan to Stupni Do?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you ever pass through that check-point?
1 A. Yes. Every Saturday and on my regular trips to the doctor I would
2 pass by.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the
5 MR. SCOTT:
6 Q. If you heard that, ma'am. They would like you to -- if you can
7 possibly move a little bit closer to the microphone, so -- if that's
8 possible, if you can still do that. Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you help the
11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. SCOTT:
14 Q. Ma'am, you indicated that every Saturday on your regular trips to
15 the doctor you would pass through this check-point. Do you know who
16 manned or who were the people that were -- that operated or were present
17 at this check-point?
18 A. Well, those were the soldiers from Vares, soldiers of the HVO who
19 were residents of Vares. I didn't know any of them personally so I
20 couldn't give you any names. I didn't know those who were younger than
21 me. I was just a farmer, and I was busy trying to make a living and
22 taking care of my house.
23 Q. Did you have any understanding of why this check-point was erected
24 and operated between Vares and Stupni Do at that time?
25 A. No, I didn't know until my daughter was stopped. They took from
1 her the food that she had purchased for our household.
2 Q. Very well. Let me now move forward to October of 1993, if we can,
3 and can you tell the Judges what you know about the arrest of six men from
4 the village in October 1993?
5 A. Yes, I can. I didn't know where the men were. I didn't know what
6 was happening to them. I didn't know how they were arrested. One of
7 these men, Himzo Likic, is my husband's brother. They were arrested, and
8 I don't know how my husband learned about this. He just came and said
9 that they had been arrested. He said he was worried about what was going
10 on. He didn't know why our people were being arrested. They wanted to go
11 across that road that was still open to us. Later on that road was
12 obstructed as well and we didn't pass through. This is how I learned of
13 their arrest.
14 Q. And if you can recall, can you name the persons who -- the men who
15 were arrested at this time?
16 A. Yes, I can. Esef Likic, Resad Likic, Mufid Likic, Jakub Likic,
17 Himzo Likic, and Ahmed Likic.
18 Q. And were these all Muslim men from the village of Stupni Do?
19 A. All Muslims and relatives, cousins, relatives.
20 Q. And is it correct, madam, that your husband went and visited these
21 men or saw that these men were being detained in Vares?
22 A. Yes. He was still working in the company, in the mining company.
23 Since he was a disabled person, he worked in a -- in a bathroom as the
24 leader of that team. He went to visit them, and upon his return I could
25 see that he was disappointed. He was crying. He was worried. We knew
1 that we would not be able to leave the village after that.
2 Q. Let me come back to that in just a moment, but did you learn
3 either from your husband or otherwise around this time where these six men
4 were held? Where were they detained in Vares?
5 A. My husband told me that next to the municipal building, in the
6 building of the secondary school where they kept them in the gym, I
7 guess. Later on they were transferred to Vares-Majdan before the attack
8 on Stupni Do. In the Second World War there was a prison there in that
9 building, and this is where they transferred them.
10 Q. Can I ask -- can I ask you now to go back to the statement you
11 made just a moment ago. You said that this concerned you because this
12 meant that, "We would not be able to leave the village after that." What
13 do you mean by that, and why did you feel that way after this had
15 A. Because that was the only road open to us. It was a hidden road
16 through the forest, and then they discovered this road and they blocked
17 it. And after that one couldn't leave any longer.
18 Q. So the record is clear, madam, when you say "They discovered it,"
19 and, "They blocked it," who are you referring to?
20 A. Those were the HVO units.
21 Q. All right. Now, while we're still on the question of these men
22 who were detained or men who were detained in Vares town, we're jumping
23 ahead of ourselves a bit but I'd like to take this now if we can. Can you
24 tell the Judges whether you ever learned that some of the men who were
25 detained in Vares were -- during the attack on Stupni Do taken to place
1 where they could see what was happening or at least part of what was
2 happening in Stupni Do?
3 A. Yes. Those who could walk were taken away, and then some members
4 of the Likic family were disabled, couldn't walk. Those who were from
5 Majdan-Vares, a friend of my husband told me this upon my return to Vares
6 when he came to visit me, and he asked me whether they had tortured my
7 husband, and I said, no, they killed him. And he said, "Well, he was a
8 fortunate person, because they took us to Perun to see the village on
9 fire. They beat us, and those who were unable to leave, unable to walk
10 out, they remained in prison."
11 Q. You said, madam, that they took these people or some of these men
12 to a place called Perun, P-e-r-u-n. Can you tell the Judges what that
13 place was and where that was in relationship to the village of Stupni Do?
14 A. It's towards the village above the school in Majdan-Vares, facing
15 our village. That's a mountain called Perun, and they took them there so
16 that they could watch it and so that they could torture them there.
17 Q. Can you tell the Judges what these men could see, as you
18 understand it from, from this location at Perun on the 23rd of October,
20 A. They could see raging fire, smoke. That's all they could see.
21 Q. And in talking -- you talked to one of the men who was actually
22 taken to that location on that day; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And before I move on to another topic, can you just -- did this
25 man ever indicate to you why -- what was his understanding of why they had
1 been taken to this location to see -- to observe Stupni Do?
2 A. They took them because these Muslim men who were in town were not
3 members of any army, so they kept saying to them, "Look what happened to
4 your army, to Alija's army. Why don't you join our army." They
5 mistreated them. To force them to join the HVO.
6 Q. Now, going back to the arrest of the six men from village that you
7 talked about a few moments ago, can you just indicate, and perhaps you did
8 but how far -- how many days prior to the attack on Stupni Do did that
9 happen, approximately?
10 A. Well, approximately eight days prior to that.
11 Q. Can you tell the Judges what was the impact of the arrest of these
12 six men on the people who lived -- the Muslims living in the village?
13 A. Well, it was significant. We were afraid. People, even elderly
14 ones, joined village guards. They guarded around houses to make sure that
15 nothing would happen, and unfortunately things did happen to us.
16 Everybody was anxious. Everybody was on alert. We were expecting
17 something terrible, and something terrible did happen.
18 Q. All right. Now, you just mentioned a village guard. I want to
19 ask a few questions about that. Was a village guard, something called a
20 village guard, organised in Stupni Do?
21 A. Yes. Village guard, that's all it was, to my knowledge. Now,
22 whether there was anything else there, I don't know. I didn't go and see.
23 I was a housewife, and all I knew was what my husband told me.
24 Q. And do you know approximately when this village guard was
25 organised, if you know?
1 A. When these people were arrested, all of this was organised and
2 then they just kept watch to make sure that things wouldn't happen.
3 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, approximately how many men
4 comprised or made up this guard?
5 A. About 20, thereabouts. I don't know the exact number, but around
6 20 people.
7 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether these were all men who lived in
8 Stupni Do?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you have any information that you can assist us with,
11 madam, do you know how this village guard was armed?
12 A. I don't know. I don't know. They said that some of them had
13 hunting rifle, and I don't know anything more than that.
14 Q. Madam, now let me direct your attention, please, to the night of
15 the 22nd of October, 1993. Did anyone to your knowledge leave the village
16 on the night of 22nd October?
17 A. Yes. Ana Likic left the village. Her brother came to fetch her,
18 and he took Ana and her husband, Alija. Many Ana went to her
19 sister-in-law, Serifa, telling her to watch out and take care of
20 themselves, and then she left.
21 Q. Now, is it correct, madam that the woman you just mentioned is the
22 same woman you identified some moments ago earlier this afternoon as,
23 "this was the only Croat who lived in Stupni Do"?
24 A. Yes, yes. I'm sure that that was the case.
25 Q. And do you know who came and took her out of the village on the
1 night of the 22nd of October?
2 A. Her brother came, I don't know his name, and he took her from the
4 Q. And before we move on to the next morning, can you tell the Judges
5 to your knowledge did anyone else leave the village of Stupni Do around
6 this time?
7 A. Yes. Prior to that, I don't know which date it was, only a woman
8 left with a child, her grandchild, who was four to five years old. How
9 they left the village, I don't know. Whether they received passes or not,
10 I don't know. I know that they used to be in the village, and then they
11 were the only ones who left it.
12 Q. So is it correct, then, madam that apart from Ana Likic and this
13 one woman and her grandchild that as of the night of the 22nd of October,
14 as far as you know, all the other members of the village were in the
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether this information that Ana Likic
18 had left the village, did that become known in the village that evening?
19 A. It became known because she told her sister-in-law, Serifa, that
20 she was leaving, and then she in turn informed the residents. I was at
21 home because my hamlet was further away from the village. My husband came
22 and he told me. We had a barn in the village and our cow was there, and
23 my husband had come from the village and he asked me what I was doing. I
24 was cooking dinner. He said, "Get your bags ready. Get everything
25 ready." And I asked him what happened, and he said Ana Likic had left.
1 Her brother came to fetch her. This was when panic started spreading in
2 all houses in the village.
3 Q. And can you tell the Judges a bit more about that, why? I mean,
4 why did the departure of this one woman and her husband from the village
5 have such an impact on the people living in the village?
6 A. Well, because she was the only Croat. And she was a wonderful
7 woman, a beautiful woman. I can't say a word against her. Her brother
8 came to take her away so that she would come to no harm, and based on that
9 we concluded that something would happen and, unfortunately, did happen.
10 Q. Apart from that, this event of Ana Likic leaving the village, can
11 you tell the Judges was there any other warning or notice that the HVO
12 would attack the village on the 23rd of October?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I'm taking you now to the morning of the 23rd of October. Can you
15 tell the Judges what happened that morning?
16 A. Yes, I can. On the 23rd of October, at 8.00, a shell landed in
17 the village. Since I didn't know what was a shell, I hadn't had occasion
18 to hear it explode until that time. I was having breakfast with my
19 children in the house. My husband was sleeping, having returned at 7.00
20 from his duty in village guard. (redacted)
23 As I open the door, I could hear a lot of shooting. I didn't know
24 what was going on. I went back inside the house. My children were
25 crying. My husband had gotten up. He was awake. He was pale and
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An order, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...
4 know what to do. We looked at each other. Then I went again. I saw a
5 boy. His name was Audin. He was screaming. He was terrified. Audin
6 Likic was his name. It was dum-dum ammunition, and it was exploding so
7 noisily that we thought we were all about to be killed.
8 And then he came inside and he asked me what to do with his cows.
9 I said, "Forget about your cows. Get inside the house," and he came in
10 the house. We started looking for a shelter inside the house. I was
11 trying to calm down the children. I felt also sorry for my husband. He
12 had never served as a soldier, and I felt bad about the fact that he
13 wasn't able to take charge of all of us, but that's how it was.
14 We came inside the bathroom. Everybody was in panic, crying. I
15 was calming down the children, trying to talk to them, and I was afraid
16 myself. I can't even tell you this coherently.
17 And then at one point I went towards a window because this house
18 was on an elevation and one could see the village, and as I approached the
19 window I saw that there were no more windowpanes and all the glass was
20 broken, and I came back to my family members. I told them that the
21 village was on fire. I didn't know what was going on, who was setting the
22 village on fire, and what was happening in the village.
23 My husband wanted to go out, but I preferred for myself to go out
24 because I didn't want anything to happen to him. However, he went out to
25 see Amir Likic. He lived next door to us. And we wanted to see what we
1 should be doing.
2 He spoke to Amir and his mother Rasida. She had a grandson called
3 Kabir and they made a decision to go to the shelter but I said we should
4 wait a little bit. I don't know how long we remained there. It's
5 impossible to described this to you. I don't think that even a movie
6 would be able to depict it to you realistically. It was that bad.
7 MR. SCOTT:
8 Q. Let me take you back for a moment, please, before you continue.
9 You said when you looked out the window at one point you could see the
10 village burning. Could you identify the houses of any particular
11 villagers, friends or neighbours or family, particular houses that were on
12 fire at that time?
13 A. Yes. I recognised the house of Nezir Beganovic that was on fire,
14 Serif Likic's house, Halid Likic's house, Hafo Likic's house. There were
15 some barns on fire. Everything was engulfed by fire.
16 Q. To go back a moment, you said a moment ago that there was
17 discussion about going to a shelter. What was this shelter, and what
19 A. Well, we had a shelter dug out close to the forest. It was
20 something that we called shelter, and it was a kind of a trench, dugout.
21 But since there was a clearing between us and the shelter, we were unable
22 to get to the shelter. So we decided to go to the house of Husnija
23 Mahmutovic which was across from our house.
24 Q. Approximately how far was Mr. Mahmutovic's house from your house?
25 A. About 20 metres, not more than that.
1 Q. And can you tell the Judges, please, the names of the persons who
2 moved from your house around this time to Mr. Mahmutovic's house?
3 A. Yes. From my house it was myself, my husband, my daughter, my
4 son, and Likic Audin. From Amir's house -- actually, it's the same
5 house. It was split in half between us. It was Amir Likic, Kabir Likic,
6 and Rasida Likic, nicknamed Sida, and we set out towards Husnija's house.
7 We were running across, across the road. Amir ran across, as did my
8 husband, Nedzad, and then Nedzad fell. I screamed. Nedzad got up and
9 said, "Mum, don't be afraid. I'm fine."
10 As I ran across, I saw that Adisa and Sida were missing. Prior to
11 me Audin had run across. I screamed at them saying, "Run across. Just
12 run," because it was a clearing and they were able to see us clearly and
13 to aim at us, to hit us. And this is how we reached the shelter at
14 Husnija Mahmutovic's.
15 Q. And when you arrived at Mr. Mahmutovic's house, did you find there
16 were other people who were already there? And who were they?
17 A. Yes. I found there Muamera Mahmutovic, Husnija's wife, her two
18 children Fuad and Mahir, his mother Fatima, his brother Edin, Rifet Likic,
19 Ramiza Likic. There was also a woman from Foca, Halima Kovac, and her
20 sons, Emir and Samir.
21 Q. And could you tell the Judges, please, approximately how long did
22 you remain at the Mahmutovic house?
23 A. Well, not exactly. I don't know exactly. Sometimes it seemed
24 like quite a long time. Sometimes it seemed like only a brief period of
25 time. Half an hour, an hour. I'm unable to say.
1 Q. And continue on. What happened after that?
2 A. After that Husnija Mahmutovic came, and he said that they had
3 already entered the village, the HVO army. My husband and Amir went out
4 to see what was going on and came back quickly inside the shelter. I
5 asked him what's going on, and he said, "We need to flee," because they
6 had entered the village, "and I don't know what's going to happen to us."
7 I was so sure that nothing whatsoever would happen to us. And while I was
8 talking to my husband, Amir Likic, Kabir, and Ramiza Likic ran out. They
9 fled to the forest without us noticing that. Then we moved towards the
10 door, and then all of a sudden there was such tremendous noise in
11 Husnija's house. People running. We could hear their shoes banging in
12 the house. They started yelling, cursing at us, cursing our balijas,
14 Q. And you said you could hear boots on the floor?
15 A. In the basement, in the shelter.
16 Q. All right. And you say you could hear boots on the floor?
17 A. Of course. Of course, you could hear it from upstairs. There was
18 banging. There was cursing. We could hear all of it.
19 Q. What happened next?
20 A. We returned to the shelter because we were surrounded. We
21 couldn't go anywhere. We returned to the shelter. We didn't have any
22 small children there either. The youngest child was four or five years
23 old. We had to tell him to keep quiet. Everybody was terrified. We were
24 all quiet in this shelter, and all of a sudden we heard a woman's voice
25 shouting, "Get out. They'll kill you. They know about you." That was
1 Suada Likic who they had brought with her.
2 Now, did she tell us herself or did she have to tell us, I don't
3 know. I don't hold it against her, because whatever they said to her she
4 had to do.
5 Q. And what happened next?
6 A. Then we went out. Two soldiers came to the door. They said "Get
7 out or otherwise we're going to throw grenades and kill you." We went
8 out. We surrendered, all of us. We all went outside.
9 As we were getting out outside they started separating us, the
10 men, women, and children, but all of that was nearby, a metre or two, men
11 on one side, women on the other side. (redacted)
12 Q. Let me stop you.
13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we need to go into private session for a
14 few moments, please.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll move briefly
16 into private session, Mr. Registrar, please.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 16214 redacted. Private session
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
20 MR. SCOTT:
21 Q. Madam, we're back in open session and I want to go back. You said
22 that when you came out of the shelter there were HVO soldiers around. I
23 think -- I think it's -- we've lost the page on the transcript now, but
24 approximately how many soldiers do you recall seeing around the house when
25 you came out?
1 A. A lot. I saw between 20 and 40 of them. Lots of them, that's for
2 sure. And also on the road leading to Vares-Majdan, those who did not
3 quite walk up to us. I don't know. I don't know. It was a war. There
4 was shooting. I could not count all of these people, and I cannot know
5 all these details. I didn't have enough time. I didn't dare.
6 Q. Can you -- as best you can remember, ma'am, can you tell the
7 Judges how these HVO soldiers were dressed?
8 A. The HVO soldiers wore camouflage clothing, some of them, and
9 others in black clothing, and we first thought that they weren't even
10 HVO. We thought they were Serbs. Was it maybe the Serb army that came
11 from up there? What was this? What is this black? So that's how they
12 were equipped.
13 They had these white ribbons on their arms. I don't know what
14 that help.
15 Q. Where on their arms did they have these ribbons, if you remember?
16 A. Here. They were tied up here on their arms. I don't know why and
17 what for.
18 Q. Did you see any other symbols or badges on these soldiers?
19 A. Well, on this camouflage uniform you could see -- well, I mean,
20 who'd look? You would see that it's HVO insignia. On the black ones we
21 couldn't see anything.
22 Q. And did you see any other symbols or markings on their uniforms or
23 what they were wearing?
24 A. No. No. No. No. I just saw that they had this paint on, and
25 some of them had black ribbons on their heads. Some of them had crosses
1 around their necks. Some of them had wooden crosses, others had
2 glittering crosses and then they had the letter U. I don't know what that
3 meant. They looked like people who work on a railway except they had
4 black caps, sort of like that.
5 Q. And where about them, on their bodies or on their clothing, did
6 they have this letter U?
7 A. On the cap.
8 Q. Can you tell the Judges, did you recognise any of these HVO
9 soldiers as soldiers from Vares?
10 A. No. No. I didn't. I didn't really know many people, especially
11 not young-ish people. I was a housewife, you know. And I went to the
12 marketplace once a week selling my dairy products. I didn't know many
13 people. I knew perhaps older people or women who came to buy my cheese
14 and cream and other dairy products. Perhaps it's easier to explain it
15 that way. But my husband recognised one of them and called out his
16 name. "What are you doing to us? We're neighbours. Why don't you say
17 that we're not in any army?" And the other one hit him immediately and
18 said, "There's no neighbours here. It's only people from elsewhere." I
19 didn't really know anyone. I didn't recognise anyone.
20 Q. And can you tell the Judges whether -- you could see any other
21 parts of the village or houses on fire at that point after you'd been
22 taken out of the shelter and you were with this group of soldiers?
23 A. Yes. I saw my house was on fire and my barn was on fire.
24 Everything was on fire. The village was on fire as far as you could see.
25 Everything was on fire.
1 Q. Now, you said --
15 [Private session]
11 Page 16219 redacted. Private session
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
8 MR. SCOTT:
9 Q. All right. Madam, you said a few minutes ago that when you were
10 taken out of the house, when you came out of the -- Husnija Mahmutovic's
11 house that there was some effort to separate the men and the women; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us more about what happened in that regard?
15 A. I can. They separated the men from the women. The men were on
16 one side, and we women and children were on the other side near Edin
17 Mahmutovic's small summer house. So it was only a metre or two away.
18 I really don't know what to say, how people were lined up.
19 Everybody was so afraid and --
20 Q. Sorry. Were the group of you standing on the road that ran
21 between your house and Mr. Mahmutovic's house?
22 A. No. That's when we got out of the shelter. That question belongs
23 there. So we were standing towards Mahmutovic Fatima's house and in the
24 middle there was this little summer house of Edin Mahmutovic. That's
25 where we were standing, right in front of Husnija's house when we got oust
1 shelter that is.
2 Q. All right. Now, as you were all then standing, with the men on
3 one side and the women on the other side, what happened next?
4 A. Well, what happened. It was so fast. They were swearing at us,
5 saying, "Hand over your money. Hand over your jewellery. Hand over
6 everything," and we did. We gave them everything we had, jewellery,
7 money. Then he walked up to Rifet Likic. He asked him for money and he,
8 poor thing, didn't have any money. He was young, a young man, and there
9 was a war, and he said, "I haven't got any money." And then this man hit
10 him on the right side. Since he didn't exactly cut him, he was facing us,
11 all the men were facing us, he sort of held on this way with his hands,
12 but there was blood seeping through his fingers.
13 Q. Ma'am -- ma'am, I'm sorry. Sorry to interrupt you, but we may
14 have missed something or it may have been something you said a few minutes
15 ago. You said just how that he hit him, but now you said that there
16 was -- you saw blood coming from his neck, the way you described it and
17 the way you showed it. What happened to him?
18 A. Oh, but of course. Of course. He hit him way up here across the
19 neck. It looked as if his throat had been slit. There was blood seeping
20 through his fingers. The children didn't dare look. The children closed
21 their eyes, whereas we had to see it. We had to see what was going on.
22 And Rifet bent over, and the soldier hit him, and he fell and --
23 Q. Sorry. Either -- it may be my question or it may be translation
24 or it may be just a misunderstanding, I'm sorry to interrupt you. When
25 you say he hit him in the throat, in the neck, did he had hit him with his
1 hand or was he holding anything in his hand when he hit him?
2 A. No. Knife. He was holding a knife. He used a knife, and he slit
3 his throat, but obviously he didn't quite slit it because otherwise he
4 couldn't bend over, but he did.
5 Q. And then what happened?
6 A. Rifet, as he was holding on this way, there was blood seeping
7 through his fingers, and then this one hit him with a rifle on the back
8 and he fell, and that's the side where we were. When you go from
9 Husnija's to Fatima's house there was this slope and he fell. And he shot
10 at him had, and again Rifet tried to get up. Now, the strength he had, I
11 really don't know. Then he got closer to him and then, you know, a few
12 times in the head. I don't know how many times. It was so fast. It was
13 like a burst of gunfire, and he walked up to my husband only, and my
14 husband --
15 Q. Sorry. Let my interrupt you again. When you said that this
16 soldier shot at Rifet, how far away was he? How far was the end of his
17 barrel of the gun, of the rifle, from Mr. Likic's body when the shots were
19 A. Well, say half a metre, not more than that. All of that is so
21 Q. And you said at one point Rifet was still trying to get up?
22 A. Yes. Then again he was shot in the head, and then there was no
23 more Rifet. He was dead.
24 Q. What happened after that? Are you okay --
25 A. They went up to my husband --
1 Q. -- ma'am?
2 A. -- my husband. They were asking for money. He got his wallet
3 out, gave them what he had. I don't know myself how much money he had in
4 his wallet. He held his wallet in his left hand and he gave them the
5 money with his right hand. He ordered Edin and my husband to lie on their
6 stomachs, and they were close to me like this -- or, rather, on this side.
7 Q. How far was your husband from you when he was lying on the ground?
8 A. Well, like this. Like a metre and a half or two. And the rifle
9 was nearby, and then he shot him between the shoulder blades, and that's
10 how he killed Mahmutovic too. And then they were taking all of this
11 jewellery. And they killed the two of them.
12 I mean, I really don't know. I mean, I really cannot tell you
13 about all of these things that happened.
14 Q. Ma'am, I know this is difficult for you, but was your husband
15 killed immediately or did the two of you have a chance to see each other
16 before he died?
17 A. When he laid down, as they were to kill him, he turned to the left
18 and he looked at me. And I looked at him, and I saw them kill him. His
19 eyes were begging for help, but there was no help.
20 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think we should take the break now at
21 this point.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll take a
23 20-minute break.
24 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I was told via the
2 Victims and Witnesses Section that the witness is concerned as to the
3 length of the examination, so for psychological reasons I will ask all
4 parties to try and reduce as much as they can the time they need for
5 questions. Thank you.
6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Madam, you've told us so far --
8 A. Thank you.
9 Q. You've told us so he far about the killing of Mr. Rifet Likic and
10 also your husband. Was there a boy named Mahir who was part of the group
11 that was gathered at the location you've described to us this afternoon?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did anything happen to him during this time?
14 A. One of the soldiers there -- I keep saying one of the soldiers,
15 you know, but one of the soldiers wanted to slash his throat, and he threw
16 him to the ground and took the knife out to slit his throat, and then when
17 he saw his mother leaning over, he saw that she had earrings in her ears,
18 and he started cursing and he said, "Look at her. She did not hand over
19 her earrings." So he let the boy go. And I approached the mother, took
20 the earrings, and gave them to the soldier.
21 Q. And the name of this woman, please?
22 A. Muamer Mahmutovic.
23 Q. And why did you take her earrings and give them to the soldier?
24 A. Well, once I saw them at the ready with the knife, I was worried
25 that they would cut off her ears or something. So I jumped in to take her
1 earrings off. I don't even know where I got that strength. I guess I was
2 totally unconscious of my own power at that moment, but I did it to help.
3 Q. Was the -- I think you mentioned earlier when I ask you who was at
4 the shelter, who came out, that sort of thing, but was a woman named Sida
5 Likic part of this group?
6 A. Yes, she was. She stood next to me in the line. She was first,
7 and then I was next, and then Nedzad was next to me. He was 14, but he
8 wasn't tall. I mean, he appeared to be younger.
9 Q. And what happened to Sida Likic at this time?
10 A. Sida Likic asked that they not harm the children. They said,
11 "Why? Are the children bothering you?" And then this man kicked Sida,
12 and he bent her over a stump that was used to cut -- to chop wood, and
13 then he fired in her shoulders, between her shoulders. Sida was all bent
14 over. She was crying. She was saying, "My legs are hurting," but it was
15 all to no avail.
16 Q. In the transcript, just before we continue on, you said that Sida
17 Likic asked that they not harm the children, and they said, "Why? Are the
18 children bothering you?" Is that something that they the soldiers said,
19 "Why? Are the children bothering you?", or is that something that the
20 Sida Likic said?
21 A. No. Sida Likic said that. "Why are you harming the children?
22 Why are the children bothering you?" She begged them, "Do not harm us,"
23 but they killed her nevertheless.
24 Q. I would like you now to look at -- there's a bundle of documents
25 there in front of you or to your -- on your right side under the tissues.
1 A. Could you please help me with the numbers?
2 Q. Yes, please. Would you please go to Exhibit 9886. It may be
3 helpful, usher, if you could maybe put that on the -- we have an extra
4 copy we can put on the ELMO.
5 Ma'am, while that's being done, let me just go back and again just
6 clarify something while we're in the process of getting the document
8 You said that they had Sida bent over a stump that was used to
9 cut -- to chop wood, and then he fired in her shoulders. It may be
10 obvious, but when you say he fired in her shoulders, what do you mean?
11 What happened? Ma'am?
12 A. Well, he fired at her, killed her. That's obvious. She was
13 lifeless. She was all bent over as they threw her on the ground. That's
14 how she remained lying there. One of my legs was under her, and I had to
15 pull my leg out so that they wouldn't see it. I was afraid. I was afraid
16 just like anybody is afraid of dying. That's how I pulled out my leg, and
17 she remained lying there. I could see her muscles contracting and then
18 they stopped, and I could see her coat moving.
19 Q. All right. Now, can I ask you to look at this diagram, please,
20 and I know that the writing -- all or most of the writing on the document
21 is in English, but that's not what I'm asking you about. If you can look
22 at the diagram, please, enough to orient yourself to -- to it, and then
23 I'm going to ask you, please, if you could point out your house on this
24 map. And I guess I should say, first of all, is this a diagram or map of
25 the village of Stupni Do?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. And can you find your house on the map, please?
3 A. Yes, I can. This is where my house is, right here, and then this
4 is the house of Husnija Mahmutovic. This is the shelter. This is the
5 summer house of Edin Mahmutovic.
6 Q. Ma'am, let me stop you for a moment.
7 A. This is the house of Fatima Mahmutovic.
8 Q. The Judges can't see what you're pointing out. Can ask you to use
9 the map that is on this machine to the right, and the usher will help you,
10 because that way everyone in the courtroom will be able to see what you're
11 pointing to. So again can you please -- looking at that diagram, can you
12 show us where your house was located.
13 A. This is my house, right here.
14 Q. And can I ask you, please, to -- if a marker can be provided to
15 the witness.
16 Can you circle your house, please, draw a circle around your house
17 and put number 1?
18 A. Yes, I can.
19 Q. And where -- then you talked about going across -- travelling a
20 distance of approximately 20 metres to the house of Husnija Mahmutovic.
21 Can you show us Mr. Mahmutovic's house?
22 A. Yes. This is the house of Husnija Mahmutovic. This is where we
23 came down, crossed the road, and came to his house here.
24 Q. Can I ask you please to draw a circle around that and mark that
25 number 2.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Now, at the time that your husband and these others were killed,
3 can you show us the location -- that location on the map?
4 A. We were right next to this summer house, and they were right next
5 to us here in front of Husnija's house. This is all next to each other.
6 Two or three metres away, from this house to Husnija's house.
7 Q. Can I ask you to just mark that location that you've just been
8 pointing to with a number 3.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. All right. Thank you. In a few minutes, madam, we're going to
11 talk about -- you may have just mentioned it now, but while we have the
12 map in front of us could you also show us again, if you have already,
13 these -- what you call the summer house? Where was that located?
14 A. Number 3 is the small house of Edin Mahmutovic, and then this is
15 the house of Fatima, his mother, the one that we haven't marked yet.
16 Q. All right. Let me ask you to do exactly that. Can you please
17 mark Fatima's house and put a circle around that and please mark that with
18 a number 4.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you very much.
21 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, I have no further questions about this
22 diagram, but if the -- if the Judges had a question now, perhaps it would
23 be the appropriate time. No. Okay. Thank you very much. We are
24 finished with that drawing then.
25 If we can get an IC number for that, please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document will become Exhibit IC
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, can you please sign this
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somewhere here. Here.
6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much.
7 Q. During the time when you were in this -- the area that you've been
8 describing now for some minutes this afternoon, did you at any time see a
9 soldier that you knew or came to know as Como?
10 A. No. We heard them call out the name, but as I was giving this
11 statement for The Hague Tribunal, I didn't dare give any names because my
12 brother is a lawyer and he said that that could harm my children. He said
13 I should watch out because you never know what people might do behind your
14 back. So I never wanted to give those names. I called and called out the
15 name of Como, Ljubo. Ljubo is a Serbian name. And it seemed to me as
16 though they wanted to create confusion, to mislead us with those names.
17 And then the one called Como was angry that they were calling out names.
18 That's how I knew those names, but I didn't recognise anyone's appearance.
19 Some of them were disguised. They had painted faces and all that. I
20 didn't recognise any of them.
21 Q. When you said a moment ago that the one called Como became angry
22 that people were speaking out loud and calling out names, what did he do
23 or say when he became angry about that?
24 A. He yelled at them and he cursed them, but the words that he used
25 are bad, in my opinion. He cursed God, and he told them, "Why are you
1 using names?" He used bad language, and then they stopped calling out
3 Q. Let me ask you at this point before we move on to another topic,
4 during that day on the 23rd of October, at this point and at any point
5 while you were able to look out at the village or moving about the village
6 yourself, did you see any women in the village carrying a weapon?
7 A. Well, had we had weapons, some people would have defended
8 themselves. Where could we have obtained weapons? How could have women
9 obtained weapons? If I had a weapon I wouldn't allow anyone to approach
10 me in the shelter. Things that happened to me would not have happened to
11 me. I didn't know anyone who had any weapons.
12 Q. Let me -- just for purposes -- so the record is clear, ma'am, we
13 have your general answer, but let me just be very specific, if you can
14 answer my question. Did you see any women in Stupni Do on 23rd of
15 October, 1993, who were carrying or firing a weapon?
16 A. No. No.
17 Q. Now, you've mentioned several times that when -- for instance,
18 when you were gathered there together, the group of you that you've told
19 us about this afternoon, that money and jewellery was taken away from you.
20 Can you tell the Judges whether any property was taken from houses?
21 A. Yes. The soldiers took out things of value. I saw one soldier
22 taking out of Husnija Mahmutovic's house new sneakers. He tied them
23 around his neck, and they were just hanging there. Then one of them took
24 a backpack saying, "I will take this to my wife." And he threw the other
25 bag of ours into fire so that everything perished in fire and we had
1 nothing, absolutely nothing.
2 Q. Did you see any other houses being put on fire after your husband
3 was killed?
4 A. I saw the village and everything around it on fire. Everything
5 was on fire. We thought that nobody else was alive, that we were the only
6 ones who were there and were captured. We didn't know what was going to
7 happen to us.
8 Q. Can you identify the Judges -- up to that point in time, and when
9 I say that point in time, ma'am, I'm talking about when you were still
10 there in that area around where your husband and the others had been
11 killed, were there any houses in that area up to that point had not been
12 put on fire?
13 A. No. They were on fire. Just Husnija's and Fatima's house were
14 not on fire yet. My house had already been on fire. Likic's house was --
15 my large barn was on fire too. I saw it burning. And then just the
16 houses immediately around us were not on fire yet.
17 Q. And was anything -- did you hear the soldiers, the HVO soldiers,
18 say anything about those houses?
19 A. Well, no. Just at one point in time a soldier cursed us, insulted
20 us in all kinds of ways. Then he said, "What are you going to do?
21 There's no Alija to defend you." And we really didn't need anything at
22 that point because we didn't know whether we would survive. It was
23 terrible. Those were terrible shocks, traumas. I have scars from them to
24 this day.
25 Q. Did anything happen then to Husnija's house and Fatima's house?
1 A. Yes. A soldier yelled out, "Why aren't they setting houses on
2 fire?" And then he fired into Husnija's house. He fired from some kind
3 of a weapon. I'm totally ignorant when it comes to weapons. And then
4 all of a sudden the roof came in and the house was on fire. (redacted)
8 MR. SCOTT: If we can please go into private session for a few
9 moments, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, for a few minutes let's
11 move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 16233 redacted. Private session
21 [Open session]
22 MR. SCOTT:
23 Q. Ma'am, I'd like to direct your attention now to -- we've mentioned
24 the several times already today the summer house. Can you tell the Judges
25 then what happened in connection -- anything involving the summer house,
1 and if you could just basically take us through what happened.
2 A. Yes. When they killed Rasida Likic, a soldier started firing
3 around my feet, trying to taunt me. I was totally powerless. I guess I
4 was in shock, but I didn't beg him. I didn't cry. The one with Motorola
5 said, "No more killing. She deserves a bullet, but she's not going to get
6 one." Then the other one asked, "What are we going to do with them?" The
7 commander ordered that even children in -- in cradles had to be killed.
8 The houses were on fire. Fatima's and Husnija's houses were already on
9 fire. I was afraid they would throw us into the fire alive. My two
10 children were with me.
11 One of them said, "We are going to set them on fire in this small
12 house," and he forced us into the house. This was a young man. He looked
13 terribly. His eyes were all bloody. He came inside this house. Edin
14 Mahmutovic lived there. He was a bit mentally disturbed. It's not that
15 he was harmful to anyone. He took his eau de cologne and drank it. I
16 could see right away that this was unimaginable. How can somebody drink
17 that? How could somebody do that? He threw things around the house. He
18 forced us into a corner, made us sit there, the 12 of us remaining there.
19 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment, I'm sorry. You just said 12
20 people. Who was gone -- who was put into the summer house at that point
21 in time?
22 MR. SCOTT: And, Your Honour, I think it would be safer and we
23 could move more quickly if we could just go into private session for a
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
1 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. SCOTT:
19 Q. And again was at some point the summer house put on fire?
20 A. We did not see how they put the summer house on fire. We stayed
21 there quiet, terrified. The soldier who went out locked the door. We
22 heard the key as he locked the door. We were so afraid. Then he wanted
23 to see whether he could open the door. He kicked the door.
24 As I was standing there, I couldn't sit down, the children were on
25 this bed or whatever. I don't know what word to use for it. I was
1 standing. This door was low, and I saw the HVO soldiers moving about
2 putting corpses into the fire, but I did not see who it was that they were
3 carrying. I just saw them carrying them.
4 I stayed there, sitting there for a long time.
5 Q. Can you give the Judges any more information about in which house,
6 if you can, the soldiers, the HVO soldiers were putting bodies?
7 A. Fatima Mahmutovic's house. That's where they carried the corpses.
8 They set us on fire and left. My -- my son was sitting by the window in
9 the small summer house, and he looked through the window and said, "Mum,
10 you ought to see this, all these soldiers moving through the village."
11 And I looked through the window and I saw there was no one. I just saw
12 this one man running. I did not see masses of people, and I was wondering
13 whether my child had gone crazy by then.
14 So we were waiting, and all of a sudden the windows started
15 breaking because it was so hot. The fire was getting close to us, and I
16 was suggesting that we should get out. It's better for them to kill us
17 with a bullet than to burn. And everybody was crying and begging me,
18 "Mum, don't open the door. We have water here. We will try to put the
19 fire out." But nevertheless, I decided, and Suada Likic saw this little
20 axe on this little piece of furniture that we have in the village, and I
21 got up and I asked Fatima Mahmutovic just to hit the lock so that it gets
22 a bit shaky and then I would open the door with a little axe. And then I
23 said to them, "Run to the woods. Whoever they kill, they will kill.
24 Whoever they wound, they will wound, but just run to the forest."
25 I went out to see where the corps were. I guess I was in a state
1 of shock. I didn't see anything. I didn't hear them running next to me,
3 As I turned around I walked into this little house. Fatima was
4 standing by herself next to the doorstep, and I said, "Why didn't you
5 leave?" And she said, "I can't," because her son had been kill. She
6 said, "I cannot run. I cannot escape. I cannot go." And I said, "I
7 can," as I was so afraid. I ran towards my children to see where they
8 were. But before that I just looked a bit to see whether I could get the
9 corpses out. No, it was not possible. All three houses were on fire,
10 Husnija's and Edin's and Fatima's. You could not even stand close to
11 that. It wasn't like fire -- well, what kind of fire was it? Was it
12 because of the furniture or the clothing. You could feel all these
13 smells, all sorts of things. That's the way --
14 Q. Let me ask you -- sorry. Let me ask you before we have to move
15 forward, you said you looked a bit to "see whether I could get the corpses
16 out." Could you see any of the corpses that were in the house, any of the
17 burning houses at that time and, if so, if you could identify them, then
18 please do. Sorry to ask you that, but if you can.
19 A. No, I couldn't see because the fire was getting out of the door.
20 I couldn't see. I couldn't figure it out. I just saw that they carried
21 them in there, and I just tried to look through the fire to see whether I
22 could save someone from that fire.
23 Q. And after you escaped from the summer house and after you had
24 tried to look around into what you've just described, look into these
25 burning houses, what did you and the others do after that?
1 A. Well, I went to the woods. I found the children, the women who
2 had fled down towards the forest. Amir and Ramiza, I found them too.
3 They were with us before. They were in the forest as well. They asked me
4 where Fatima was, and I told them she stayed behind, I don't know, in the
5 little house up there, and I followed the children. I said to Amir, "Your
6 mother was killed. Don't wait. There is nothing to wait for any more.
7 We have to go into the forest. We have to seek shelter." And that's how
8 we left.
9 The first night in the forest we were on our own. We didn't know
10 if anybody from the village had survive. We didn't know what was going
12 Q. And how long were you in the forest before you either came to a
13 check-point or someone collected you, or how long were you in the forest,
15 A. We were in that forest until the morning of the 25th, Monday. The
16 people who survived sort of gathered there. I don't know how they
18 In the morning, after dawn, we all gathered there, and then we
19 spent another night there. And then on Monday, the 25th, we decided to
20 surrender to the HVO yet again since we had little babies. They didn't
21 have any food. It wasn't even possible to breast feed them because the
22 women were in trouble out of fear or whatever. Also, there were some
23 women who could or could not get their period. They didn't have any
24 sanitary pads. And we all started smelling, and we couldn't stand the
25 sight of one another any longer. And then we decided to surrender, to go
1 further on.
2 Q. Before you go further with your story, could you tell the Judges
3 by Monday the 25th of October, approximately how many people from the
4 village had gathered together by that time in the forest?
5 A. Well, not say anything for sure, but there were about a hundred of
6 us. Up to 100. I don't know whether it was exactly 100, but it was
7 women, children, old men.
8 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to -- at the moment I'm going to show you some
9 additional exhibits, and if we have time I will come back to try to finish
10 very quickly the rest of your story, if you will, but before we do that
11 can I ask you if, in that bundle that is in front you, can you look at
12 6116. And Exhibit 6116, madam, and for the courtroom, is a collection of
13 nine photographs. Can you just tell the Judges briefly -- in looking at
14 these photographs yesterday, can you confirm that these were all
15 photographs of the village of Stupni Do after the attack on the 23rd of
16 October, 1993?
17 A. Yes. This is Stupni Do. These are photographs of Stupni Do.
18 Q. All right. Let me ask you -- each of the pictures has a number on
19 it you will see, and again because of the time I'm going to ask if you can
20 please find -- I think the first photograph in the bundle is 0035-7812.
21 Perhaps if in e-court we could go to that if possible. 7812.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell -- in looking at that, can you tell the Judges if you
24 recognise or know anyone's -- that to be anyone's house or one of those
25 remaining structures, whatever's left to be the house of anyone that you
1 knew at the time?
2 A. It is hard to recognise all of this, but these are houses of
3 Stupni Do. This is Arif Likic and Salih Likic's house. And then up here,
4 well ...
5 Q. Can I ask you, please, if you continue through the bundle and if
6 you can please find the photograph that is marked 0035-7832.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to a house that's roughly --
9 not exactly but roughly in the middle of the photograph, and at least
10 according to the light it looks as if -- whether it does or not, it looks
11 as if it has kind of a blue wall. Do you recognise that house and who had
12 lived there?
13 A. The one in the middle of the photograph is Salim Likic's house.
14 Then down here is Mujo Likic's; then Alija Likic; and then Rozovic,
15 Dragica, her barn, and I don't know, all these ruins put together.
16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, because of time unless the Chamber wants
17 to I'm not going to mark the individual houses, but again of course if the
18 Chamber wants to do that we can, but obviously it will take time.
19 Q. Can I ask you to go to exhibit -- photograph 0035-8464.
20 MR. SCOTT: I'll just ask the usher -- we're going to be going
21 through all the remaining documents, and it may be easier for you to just
22 assist her there.
23 Q. If you can find 35 -- 0035-8464. Can you identify that house, the
24 house shown in that photograph, please?
25 A. Yes. This is Fatima Mahmutovic's house.
1 Q. And if we can go, please -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, but if we can
2 go into private session for just one or two questions.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
4 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 MR. SCOTT:
20 Q. Usher, can you assist the witness, please, by directing her
21 attention to Exhibit 6314.
22 Madam, Exhibit 6314 is a bundle of autopsy reports, and can I
23 please ask you if you can find toward the end of the bundle in the Bosnian
24 language on page 41.
25 MR. SCOTT: The English pages are numbered, page 41, Your Honours.
1 Q. And if you have that -- and if you look for the one that has the
2 name Mehmed Likic. Do you have that? Do you see it, ma'am?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And is this an autopsy of person who -- identified here as your
5 husband, Mehmed Likic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In looking at the report, ma'am, can I ask you is it correct that
8 it says that the body of this person was "completely carbonised"?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At the time when you saw your husband being killed, as you
11 described for us early this afternoon, was his -- it may be stating the
12 obvious, but can you tell the Judges, was his body at any time around that
13 time on fire?
14 A. No. No, I couldn't get to the body. Had I seen him, I would have
15 saved him even though he was dead.
16 Q. And can I ask you, a few pages back, if you move a few pages back
17 toward the front of that bundle can you please find a similar document
18 concerning Refet Likic -- Rifet Likic, on page 37 of the English
20 A. Yes. Rifet Likic is Mehmed's brother's son.
21 Q. And did also -- looking at the text or the content of the report,
22 do you see that it also indicates that, this "body carbonised"?
23 A. Yes. They were together. They were burned together. The bodies
24 were carbonised and taken for a post-mortem, but I have never believed
25 that they could tell who was who, but they were buried one next to the
1 other so that the wounds and scars would be less painful.
2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Exhibits 8662, 8660, 8663, and 8658 are
3 respectively the death certificates of Mehmed Likic, Rifet Likic, Rasida
4 Likic, and Edin Mahmutovic. I would hope that there would not be any
5 dispute about that, and I wouldn't take the time with the witness to show
6 her those documents if we don't need to.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections and I think that --
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: -- that's on behalf of all the accused.
11 MR. SCOTT: One final -- yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have seen all these documents
13 yesterday, Mr. Scott.
14 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. One last document, then, and then we will conclude the -- at least
16 my questions will be concluded. If you can 8382 [Realtime transcript read
17 in error "8232"], please.
18 Can you just tell the Judges briefly what that document is?
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There must be a mistake on the
20 transcript. I think it should be -- it should read 8382.
21 MR. SCOTT: You're absolutely right, Your Honour. If I misspoke,
22 my apologies.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. Right.
24 MR. SCOTT:
25 Q. And what is that document, ma'am?
1 A. Well, this is, I guess, a document concerning my house in Stupni
2 Do, that it was destroyed, set on fire, built in 1978, and the size of the
3 house, 8 X 4, and so on. The basement consists of a basement. The house
4 was built in 1978. The house is 8 X 8, and it consists of a basement
5 and -- and a ground floor. What's this, this 4, 4 --
6 Q. Let me just ask you in the interests of time, is this the record
7 of an inspection that was done in 1994 just to confirm the property lost
8 by you and your family on the 23rd of October, 1993?
9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. Just to conclude, then, madam, and again we don't have the time to
11 go through this in all detail, you said a few moments ago that because of
12 the poor conditions that the group were in, there were babies, people were
13 cold, there was no food, did you turn yourself in to an HVO check-point?
14 A. Yes. We turned ourselves in at a check-point of Pajtov Han,
15 towards the village of Strijezovo and towards Breza. That's where we
16 went. We got out of the forest. We decided to surrender. My daughter
17 didn't want to. She stayed on, and then she stayed with a friend, and her
18 friend told her what it was that had happen. She didn't want to go
19 without her, and she stayed with my daughter, and her father stayed, too,
20 and we surrendered.
21 As we appeared, as we got out of the forest we saw their APCs and
22 their check-point and there was this camouflage APC facing Vares and it
23 was painted all camouflage and shooting started straight away. They
24 started shooting at us straight away. They were shooting in order to
25 scare us but they didn't wound any one of us. We just walked up to the
1 check-point, and when we got to the check-point, we just found three
2 soldiers there at the check-point.
3 Q. All right. What I'm going to have you ask you now, please, is
4 just -- later after this -- approaching the check-point and having seen
5 these three soldiers, did there come a time when UNPROFOR vehicles, the UN
6 protection force, in other words, that the UNPROFOR vehicles came to this
7 check-point and collected you?
8 A. The UNPROFOR vehicles did not arrive immediately. I don't know
9 how much time went by and what happened, but we were there for a long
10 time, and we didn't know what it was that was moving from down there
11 because they said that nothing or no one could move up or down. And then
12 they put us into this prefabricated building. Who wanted to go into it
13 could go in, and who didn't want to could stay in front on the road. And
14 we were supposed to get onto -- into these vehicles, and then there was
15 this curve, and we said we'd better sit on this road and let them run us
16 over. There's nothing else for us to do.
17 The women went out with the children. There were wounded men,
18 women, little girls. We were all there. And then all of a sudden two
19 sort of little trucks, or whatever, of UNPROFOR came. It wasn't an APC.
20 And it stopped, and as they stopped a young-ish man got out. I don't know
21 whether he was a Swede or whatever. He got out, and he said, "Are you the
22 women from Stupni Do?" And the women started crying, screaming. Children
23 were crying. And they -- and he said, "Take it easy. Take it easy. I
24 don't understand much Bosnian, but I can help you." Things got a bit more
25 quiet. He offered the women milk and to the children, too, gave them some
1 food as well, and even now in my years I hear the children saying, "Give
2 us bread. Give us bread."
3 He walked up to this soldier. They called Cicko. Some of them
4 knew him from before. I didn't know him until that day. And he said, I
5 mean this Swede said that Cicko should stay away from us, and the HVO
6 soldiers too. They didn't want to. He was very fair. He ordered the
7 soldiers to do what they could with their weapons, and then he started
8 negotiating with Cicko. And he said, "I want to take these women and
9 children from Stupni Do. Can I talk to Duznovic, and where am I going to
10 find Duznovic?" Cicko said, "Duznovic has nothing to do with this. You
11 will have to negotiate with Ivica Rajic and Ivica Gavran." I remember
12 that, and I said to my son Nedzad, "Remember those two names, son, if I
13 die." I was so exhausted I couldn't stand on my two feet, and I couldn't
14 walk any more, but I knew that this Ivica Rajic -- I mean, that this last
15 name did not exist in Vares, and I was wondering what was this, and what
16 did this man hold against us in our village? Why did he come to our
17 village and do what he did to us?
18 Q. Ma'am, let me just stop with this: Were you then taken by
19 UNPROFOR later that day to Breza?
20 A. Those who could not move around at all went to Breza, the wounded,
21 women who had young children. I wanted to get onto the truck, too, but
22 there was no more room left.
23 Another group of HVO soldiers came up, and I guess this one
24 soldier knew me, and he walked up to me and he congratulated me on going
25 to my own people. And I don't know what people I was with before then. I
1 fell. He lifted me up, and he said, "Fuck you, woman, what's wrong with
2 you now? You're going out to be free." And I said my daughter's in the
3 forest. And he said, "Stay behind. You and I will go to the forest to
4 find her." I guess this man was one of our people from Vares who wanted
5 to help me, but I couldn't move. I couldn't walk. I couldn't return.
6 And I said, "Please, if my daughter comes up, please don't do anything to
7 her. Let her leave. Let her get out." That's the promise he made.
8 And we set out. I was taken by two Swedish men who helped me
9 walk. Each took one side of my arm. And there was a column between the
10 trucks. And I couldn't speak to them, but they took me to about one
11 kilometre away from their check-point. Someone from the forest shouted
12 out, "Ferida, Ferida, come over here. Your countryman." And when they
13 asked me what they were saying I didn't dare say. I didn't say. I
14 suppose it was the BH army. And the person who knew how to speak came by
15 and told them to come up closer and they did come up closer, closer to us.
16 They approached us, two men, and they took me over on a stretcher and took
17 me towards Strijezovo. And Nedzad my son went towards Breza and my
18 daughter remained in the forest.
19 Q. Let me just ask you, ma'am, and I'm afraid we'll have to leave it
20 at this: Then were you reunited in the next couple of days with your son
21 and your daughter in Breza?
22 A. Yes. I waited for two days. I was staying with my sister-in-law.
23 Some people said, "She's left the forest." Others said she hadn't. I
24 wasn't sure what had happened. I wasn't conscious of anything. And then
25 a cousin of my husband's came by and said, "Your son's with me. You
1 needn't worry. He's in Breza." And then I set out on foot towards Breza,
2 and so did go of my other neighbours, women. And two days later I was at
3 Strijezovo, and we went across some fields to Dabravine, the village of
4 Dabravine, and suddenly a car appeared, a red car. I expected (redacted)
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An order, please.
8 Please proceed, madam.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The man got out. I didn't know him,
10 but the woman who was with me, it was a cousin of hers, and they kissed by
11 way of greeting and she cried. And he said, "Why are you crying? Where
12 are your children?" And she said, "Here." She had two little sons. And
13 she said, "Why are you crying? How do you suppose this other woman
14 feels?" And I started crying even more. (redacted)
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try to conclude, please,
21 Mr. Scott.
22 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 MR. SCOTT:
15 Q. Ms. Likic, I want to thank you very much for coming to The Hague
16 and giving this very important testimony. I know it's been very difficult
17 for you. I'm sorry for that. But I think that everyone in the courtroom
18 appreciates your courage in telling your story. Thank you very much.
19 A. Thank you, too. Thank you for having me come here. I haven't
20 come here to -- because of anyone or because I like The Hague. I just
21 want the truth to be known, a truth that's been waited for 14 years.
22 That's why I have come, to help my dead buried in the ground, to know that
23 I still live for them and speak for them. Thank you.
24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.
1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mrs. Likic, I would like to ask you a very simple
2 question just because there might be a confusion. The woman who had been
3 standing next to you and was shot in the back when she was over a stump,
4 you said she was called Sida. At another moment you called her Rasida,
5 and there is also a document, "Rasida." Am I right in supposing that Sida
6 is short for Rasida and it's the same person?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Hvala ljepo.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. She was nicknamed Sida but her
10 real name was Rasida. Thank you too.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, madam. Can we
12 continue before the break? It may be that the Defence might have very few
14 Mr. Karnavas.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
16 Your Honours. I have no questions for this witness but we do wish to
17 thank her for coming here to The Hague to give her evidence.
18 Thank you very much, ma'am.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.
20 Mr. Murphy.
21 MR. MURPHY: We also have no questions.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Murphy.
23 Ms. Pinter.
24 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, the Defence
25 of General Praljak does have some questions, three questions, but may we
1 go into private session for that, please.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Private session for
3 three questions.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 16253 redacted. Private session
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, please.
22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, madam, we have no
23 questions for you. Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. Thank you for
25 understanding me.
1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours,
2 we have no questions either.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President,
4 thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have no question. Any
7 redirect, Mr. Scott?
8 MR. SCOTT: Ever so briefly, Your Honour. I just -- this issue of
9 the name, I don't think we need to be in private session for the name of
10 this individual.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we might have to do that
12 because we went into private session the first time. So back -- back to
13 private session, please.
14 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in open session, I want to
19 thank you on behalf of my fellow Judges. Thank you for coming to testify
20 in The Hague on events that are particularly painful for you. We are ever
21 so thankful to you. Our very best wishes for your return to your country.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you too. Thank
23 you to the Defence counsel and the Prosecution for understanding me. You
24 all understood me nicely, and I'm happy that I was able to go through all
25 this. Thank you. Thank you once again.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Usher is going
2 to take you out the courtroom.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, just before we
5 conclude, with regard to next week we have a schedule, don't we? As far
6 as I know there is no problem, is there?
7 MR. SCOTT: No. Excuse me, Your Honour. No. I don't think any
8 of these individuals will have protective measures. I hate -- I would
9 hate to make a mistake, but, no. The individuals next week are all
10 scheduled. As you know Mr. van der Weijden is returning for
11 cross-examination on Monday, and I believe it's followed by Mr. Burger and
12 also Mr. Draper who are both UNPROFOR officers.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 Well, listen, today the hearing stands adjourned. We shall
15 reconvene next week on Monday at 2.15. Thank you.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.17 p.m.
17 To be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day
18 of March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.