Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16187

1 Thursday, 22 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The Accused Coric not present in court]

4 [The Accused Pusic not present in court]

5 [The Accused Petkovic not present in court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

8 case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 For the second time today I'd like to greet everyone here in this

13 courtroom. I would also like to greet Mr. Prlic, Mr. Praljak, and

14 Mr. Stojic who are here today, and their three colleagues have been taken

15 ill. There is an epidemic of influenza currently going on in

16 Scheveningen, and I'd like to wish them all well, to wish Mr. Petkovic

17 well. They will have all the weekend to get better. We will continue

18 the proceedings with a witness, but I first would like to give the

19 registrar -- we need two IC numbers.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. OTP has

21 submitted a list of documents to be tendered through Witness DH. The list

22 submitted by OTP shall be given Exhibit number IC 505. Finally, OTP has

23 submitted a response to Defence objections regarding OTP exhibits tendered

24 through Witness Salem Ceranic, and it will shall be given IC number 506.

25 Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 16188

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Yes, Mr. Scott.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if we could just go to private session

4 for a moment, please, on the next witness.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16189

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

7 [The witness entered court]


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. First, I

11 would like to make sure that you can hear me in language that you

12 understand. If that's case, please tell me that you can hear me and

13 understand me.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you are a Prosecution

16 witness. Before asking you to read the solemn declaration, can you give

17 me your first name, last name, and date of birth.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Ferida Likic, born on the 8th

19 of April, 1955, in the village of Lankovic [as interpreted], near Olovo.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have an occupation,

21 madam?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm just a housewife.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified before

24 a court of law about the facts that took place -- or the events that took

25 place in your country or is it the first time that you're testifying about

Page 16190

1 this?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, once in Zenica, but not

3 that much because I'm a sickly woman. I couldn't really take it.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You testified before

5 the court of Zenica. Do you know the name of the case in which you

6 testified?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Against the HVO. Oh, you mean about

8 my testimony in Zenica or the statement I gave in Zenica?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the court in Zenica. You

10 testified in a trial against whom?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Against Como Ilijasevic, Dominik

12 Ilijasevic.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please read the

14 solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. You may sit

18 down.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me give you few words of

21 explanation. You will have to answer questions put to you by Mr. Scott.

22 You've met him already, of course. Following the questions of Mr. Scott,

23 the Defence that is sitting on your left, and the accused as well, may

24 ask you further questions. The three Judges sitting before you may also

25 put a number of questions to you, but from now on we prefer to wait for

Page 16191

1 both parties to put questions to the witnesses before asking our

2 questions, to allow both parties to develop their arguments through their

3 own questions.

4 If at any time during your testimony you feel unwell, please do

5 not hesitate to tell it us that you want a break, to rest a little bit.

6 That's the way we're going to proceed this afternoon.

7 I'm now going to give the floor to Mr. Scott, who will lead the

8 examination-in-chief.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Examination by Mr. Scott:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Likic.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. Madam, just a -- very quickly cover some background material and

14 from -- we'll go into private session -- I'll ask to go into private

15 session in a moment or two, but again for the record, madam, your name is

16 Ferida Likic. You were born on the 8th of April, 1955, Milankovici, a

17 village in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Olovo municipality; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And is it correct that you married Mehmed Likic --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- in 1975 and lived together with him in Stupni Do?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. Yes.

Page 16192

1 Q. And your husband was a mason by trade?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, can we go into private session for just a

4 couple of questions, please.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16193

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.


19 Q. Ma'am, just again additional background. In 1993, you and your

20 family lived in the village of Stupni Do in Vares municipality; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The particular part of the village which might be described as a

24 small group of six houses, was there a particular name or term for that

25 particular part of the village that you can tell the Judges?

Page 16194

1 A. Yes. Perica Do. That's what it was called.

2 Q. And in general, this may come up in a number of contexts, but I'm

3 just going to ask you now, madam, was your husband during this time or at

4 any time, but in particular 1993, was your husband ever a member of the

5 Territorial Defence or the ABiH or any military force or organisation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, is it correct, madam, that Stupni Do consisted in 1993 of

8 approximately 60 houses, not including stables and barns?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. At sometime in the early 1990s had a certain number of houses in

11 the village been occupied by Serbs or Serb families?

12 A. Serb families lived there in 10 houses in the village.

13 Q. And at some point in time in the early 1990s, did the Serb

14 families leave the village?

15 A. The Serbs left the village in 1992.

16 Q. Can you briefly describe to the Judges the circumstances in which

17 the Serbs left the village, how that came about and how it happened?

18 A. The Serbs left the village because the HVO came, disarmed them,

19 and then they left in 1992.

20 Q. And can you tell us whether there were any Croat families or Croat

21 persons living in the village of Stupni Do in 1993?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was there a woman who lived in the village, a married name, Ana

24 Likic?

25 A. Yes. Yes. Just this one Ana Likic.

Page 16195

1 Q. And she was a Croat and her -- what was her maiden name, please?

2 A. Mrljic was her last name, Ana Mrljic, and her married name is Ana

3 Likic.

4 Q. And was she married to a Muslim in the village named Alija Likic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is it correct, madam, that then, as you've described it, all

7 other persons living in Stupni Do as of -- during 1993, except for Ana

8 Likic, were all Muslim?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether you recall a time in about June

11 1993 when a number of Croats arrived in the Vares area from Kakanj?

12 A. Yes. Their refugees came. Many of them came to Vares. I don't

13 know the exact figure, but Vares was full of refugees from Kakanj.

14 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, whether the arrival and presence

15 of the Croats from Kakanj made the local relationships between the Croats

16 and the Muslims better, worse, or did they stay the same?

17 A. Well, they got worse, unfortunately. A worsening was felt.

18 Q. Can you just describe to the Judges briefly some of the ways in

19 which that -- some of the ways in which you saw that being carried out,

20 conduct or behaviour that you may have observed or things that were said?

21 A. Well, this is the way it was: I was a housewife. I had my own

22 two cows. I produce dairy products. I went to the marketplace to sell my

23 products every Saturday, and it was obvious that they were taunting our

24 women. They were threatened, our women were, and we felt some fear.

25 Q. All right. And madam, just so the record is clear, when you said

Page 16196

1 you went to town, are you talking about the town of Vares?

2 A. Vares, yes. That's nearby. It's two kilometres away from my

3 village. Two kilometres and 700 metres, that is.

4 Q. Very well. Now, I want to direct your attention, please, to

5 around the same time that the Croats arrived from Kakanj. Was an

6 ultimatum given to the Muslims in the village of Stupni Do? In June

7 1993.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell the Judges about that?

10 A. Well, we got this ultimatum seven days earlier. I don't remember

11 the exact dates that some unit of ours, a unit of the army, should

12 surrender its weapons. So that's when we got this ultimatum.

13 Q. And do you recall how you came to know of the ultimatum?

14 A. I remember Husnija Mahmutovic was president of the local commune,

15 and he informed the villagers that we had been presented with an

16 ultimatum. Since my husband was over there at that meeting, he found out

17 that this ultimatum had been presented, and he told us that there was an

18 ultimatum.

19 Q. And did you and your family do anything in response to this

20 ultimatum?

21 A. Yes. From his childhood my husband had a heart problem. He was a

22 disabled person. He had also suffered an accident in the mine. He was in

23 no army, and he was worried about his children, his daughter, and he tried

24 to get them over to Strijezovo to his sister's house. So then all the

25 people moved out of the village because of this ultimatum.

Page 16197

1 Q. Can you tell the Judges approximately, and just as best you can,

2 the approximate percentage or number of the people, the Stupni Do

3 residents, who left the village around that time?

4 A. 80 per cent. Perhaps even more than that.

5 Q. And can you tell the Judges, did that include men, women, and

6 children or not?

7 A. Elderly people, women, children, everybody.

8 Q. And how did these people -- how did the villagers leave the

9 village, by what means?

10 A. They left through the woods, because they wouldn't let us out

11 without some kind of passes, so then we all had to go through the woods.

12 Q. Can you explain that a bit further? You've made -- mentioned a

13 couple of things. You said you had to have passes, and in order to

14 essentially avoid that requirement, is what I understand you to be

15 saying --

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Scott, would you allow me to clarify a

17 point?

18 MR. SCOTT: Of course.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, you have said everybody left the

20 village, and then you gave the example of elderly, women, children. You

21 did not say anything about men of medium age, let's say between 20 and 50,

22 60. Did they also leave or did they stay?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The men stayed, and a few of us

24 women, five of us, to tend to the cattle, to milk the cows, things like

25 that.

Page 16198

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


3 Q. And as these events unfolded, ma'am, can you tell us, did you come

4 to know about a meeting involving Mr. Husnija Mahmutovic and a Croat man

5 from Vares?

6 A. Yes, because Husnija lived across the street from my house.

7 Q. And what did you learn about this meeting, and who was involved in

8 that meeting?

9 A. A gentleman came called Pipe, and he called Husnija Mahmutovic to

10 come and attend a meeting in Vares, and Himzo Likic too. Since we women

11 were afraid, there were only five of us in the village, we were terrified.

12 We didn't let them go, but they said, "It's better for us to go than all

13 of you." So they went to Vares to this meeting.

14 Q. Now, just to be clear, you mentioned I think a few moments ago,

15 Mr. Mahmutovic was the village president; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is that why he was involved in this meeting, as far as you

18 know.

19 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. He communicated with these people, and among

20 the local communes, and I guess that Pipe was the one communicating with

21 him, as far as I know, as far as I managed to hear.

22 Q. And the other member of the village who you named, Himzo Likic,

23 did he hold any particular position or function the village that caused

24 him to be involved in this?

25 A. I don't know whether he had a position in his own right or whether

Page 16199

1 he was accompanying someone. I don't know.

2 Q. And do I understand you correctly to say, then, that

3 Mr. Mahmutovic and Mr. Likic then in fact did go down to the town of Vares

4 and meet with the HVO authorities there?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And can you tell the Judges whether Mr. Mahmutovic and Mr. Likic

7 came back to the village later that afternoon with someone else?

8 A. In the afternoon they returned to the village with Mr. Pejcinovic

9 and some soldiers of theirs from Vares. I don't know whether they were

10 policemen or soldiers. I'm not knowledgeable about this kind of thing. I

11 am a housewife. I didn't even give it any thought.

12 So they came to the village, and they went to Sevko Likic. They

13 sat there for a while, had a meeting. We waited there for them to come

14 out in the street. We were waiting to find out what would happen. They

15 went out. Mr. Pejcinovic asked us, "Why is it so quiet in this village?

16 What's going on?" And we said that we moved out our population, that

17 there were very few of us left, that we were afraid that something would

18 happen to us. And he guaranteed to us, and everybody gave us guarantees.

19 They all persuaded us to get the population back, saying that we would be

20 safe. We were so pleased. We were so happy. We considered this to be

21 the truth, 100 per cent, and within 15 days we returned the entire

22 population to the village, 100 per cent of it.

23 Q. All right. Now, in moving forward from that, can I ask you that

24 later on in the summer, as the summer continued, can you tell us whether

25 any of the Muslim men from Stupni Do were arrested or detained by any

Page 16200

1 local authorities?

2 A. Yes. When our people went down to Vares to buy something they

3 would be brought in and then released, and they arrested Mufid Likic in a

4 cafe, then they detained him for about two days, and then he fled or was

5 released, but he came all beaten up, and then we all went to see him. His

6 face was black and blue, swollen. He was beaten in the chest too. So

7 that's what it was like. All sorts of things were going on.

8 Q. Can you remember if anything happened to a man named Rifet Likic

9 during that time?

10 A. Yes. He was a friend of my brother-in-law. He was a young man of

11 25 years. He had had four or five surgeries on his legs. He was a

12 disabled person, didn't harm anybody, was a good person, a kind person.

13 They took him to Vares. They interrogated him, wrote something down and

14 later on released him to go home.

15 Q. The time when you mentioned a moment ago Mufid Likic being

16 arrested and beaten, can you tell us the approximate -- if you remember

17 the month that that happened in 1993?

18 A. Well, not exactly. July or August, thereabout. At around that

19 time. I don't know the dates. I never thought about the dates. I never

20 even thought that I would get here. I never thought that the truth would

21 be investigated here so that the people in the world would know.

22 Q. Let me ask you this: At sometime in September of 1993, was a

23 check-point erected on one of the roads from Vares-Majdan to Stupni Do?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you ever pass through that check-point?

Page 16201

1 A. Yes. Every Saturday and on my regular trips to the doctor I would

2 pass by.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

4 microphone.


6 Q. If you heard that, ma'am. They would like you to -- if you can

7 possibly move a little bit closer to the microphone, so -- if that's

8 possible, if you can still do that. Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you help the

10 witness.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


14 Q. Ma'am, you indicated that every Saturday on your regular trips to

15 the doctor you would pass through this check-point. Do you know who

16 manned or who were the people that were -- that operated or were present

17 at this check-point?

18 A. Well, those were the soldiers from Vares, soldiers of the HVO who

19 were residents of Vares. I didn't know any of them personally so I

20 couldn't give you any names. I didn't know those who were younger than

21 me. I was just a farmer, and I was busy trying to make a living and

22 taking care of my house.

23 Q. Did you have any understanding of why this check-point was erected

24 and operated between Vares and Stupni Do at that time?

25 A. No, I didn't know until my daughter was stopped. They took from

Page 16202

1 her the food that she had purchased for our household.

2 Q. Very well. Let me now move forward to October of 1993, if we can,

3 and can you tell the Judges what you know about the arrest of six men from

4 the village in October 1993?

5 A. Yes, I can. I didn't know where the men were. I didn't know what

6 was happening to them. I didn't know how they were arrested. One of

7 these men, Himzo Likic, is my husband's brother. They were arrested, and

8 I don't know how my husband learned about this. He just came and said

9 that they had been arrested. He said he was worried about what was going

10 on. He didn't know why our people were being arrested. They wanted to go

11 across that road that was still open to us. Later on that road was

12 obstructed as well and we didn't pass through. This is how I learned of

13 their arrest.

14 Q. And if you can recall, can you name the persons who -- the men who

15 were arrested at this time?

16 A. Yes, I can. Esef Likic, Resad Likic, Mufid Likic, Jakub Likic,

17 Himzo Likic, and Ahmed Likic.

18 Q. And were these all Muslim men from the village of Stupni Do?

19 A. All Muslims and relatives, cousins, relatives.

20 Q. And is it correct, madam, that your husband went and visited these

21 men or saw that these men were being detained in Vares?

22 A. Yes. He was still working in the company, in the mining company.

23 Since he was a disabled person, he worked in a -- in a bathroom as the

24 leader of that team. He went to visit them, and upon his return I could

25 see that he was disappointed. He was crying. He was worried. We knew

Page 16203

1 that we would not be able to leave the village after that.

2 Q. Let me come back to that in just a moment, but did you learn

3 either from your husband or otherwise around this time where these six men

4 were held? Where were they detained in Vares?

5 A. My husband told me that next to the municipal building, in the

6 building of the secondary school where they kept them in the gym, I

7 guess. Later on they were transferred to Vares-Majdan before the attack

8 on Stupni Do. In the Second World War there was a prison there in that

9 building, and this is where they transferred them.

10 Q. Can I ask -- can I ask you now to go back to the statement you

11 made just a moment ago. You said that this concerned you because this

12 meant that, "We would not be able to leave the village after that." What

13 do you mean by that, and why did you feel that way after this had

14 happened?

15 A. Because that was the only road open to us. It was a hidden road

16 through the forest, and then they discovered this road and they blocked

17 it. And after that one couldn't leave any longer.

18 Q. So the record is clear, madam, when you say "They discovered it,"

19 and, "They blocked it," who are you referring to?

20 A. Those were the HVO units.

21 Q. All right. Now, while we're still on the question of these men

22 who were detained or men who were detained in Vares town, we're jumping

23 ahead of ourselves a bit but I'd like to take this now if we can. Can you

24 tell the Judges whether you ever learned that some of the men who were

25 detained in Vares were -- during the attack on Stupni Do taken to place

Page 16204

1 where they could see what was happening or at least part of what was

2 happening in Stupni Do?

3 A. Yes. Those who could walk were taken away, and then some members

4 of the Likic family were disabled, couldn't walk. Those who were from

5 Majdan-Vares, a friend of my husband told me this upon my return to Vares

6 when he came to visit me, and he asked me whether they had tortured my

7 husband, and I said, no, they killed him. And he said, "Well, he was a

8 fortunate person, because they took us to Perun to see the village on

9 fire. They beat us, and those who were unable to leave, unable to walk

10 out, they remained in prison."

11 Q. You said, madam, that they took these people or some of these men

12 to a place called Perun, P-e-r-u-n. Can you tell the Judges what that

13 place was and where that was in relationship to the village of Stupni Do?

14 A. It's towards the village above the school in Majdan-Vares, facing

15 our village. That's a mountain called Perun, and they took them there so

16 that they could watch it and so that they could torture them there.

17 Q. Can you tell the Judges what these men could see, as you

18 understand it from, from this location at Perun on the 23rd of October,

19 1993?

20 A. They could see raging fire, smoke. That's all they could see.

21 Q. And in talking -- you talked to one of the men who was actually

22 taken to that location on that day; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And before I move on to another topic, can you just -- did this

25 man ever indicate to you why -- what was his understanding of why they had

Page 16205

1 been taken to this location to see -- to observe Stupni Do?

2 A. They took them because these Muslim men who were in town were not

3 members of any army, so they kept saying to them, "Look what happened to

4 your army, to Alija's army. Why don't you join our army." They

5 mistreated them. To force them to join the HVO.

6 Q. Now, going back to the arrest of the six men from village that you

7 talked about a few moments ago, can you just indicate, and perhaps you did

8 but how far -- how many days prior to the attack on Stupni Do did that

9 happen, approximately?

10 A. Well, approximately eight days prior to that.

11 Q. Can you tell the Judges what was the impact of the arrest of these

12 six men on the people who lived -- the Muslims living in the village?

13 A. Well, it was significant. We were afraid. People, even elderly

14 ones, joined village guards. They guarded around houses to make sure that

15 nothing would happen, and unfortunately things did happen to us.

16 Everybody was anxious. Everybody was on alert. We were expecting

17 something terrible, and something terrible did happen.

18 Q. All right. Now, you just mentioned a village guard. I want to

19 ask a few questions about that. Was a village guard, something called a

20 village guard, organised in Stupni Do?

21 A. Yes. Village guard, that's all it was, to my knowledge. Now,

22 whether there was anything else there, I don't know. I didn't go and see.

23 I was a housewife, and all I knew was what my husband told me.

24 Q. And do you know approximately when this village guard was

25 organised, if you know?

Page 16206

1 A. When these people were arrested, all of this was organised and

2 then they just kept watch to make sure that things wouldn't happen.

3 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, approximately how many men

4 comprised or made up this guard?

5 A. About 20, thereabouts. I don't know the exact number, but around

6 20 people.

7 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether these were all men who lived in

8 Stupni Do?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if you have any information that you can assist us with,

11 madam, do you know how this village guard was armed?

12 A. I don't know. I don't know. They said that some of them had

13 hunting rifle, and I don't know anything more than that.

14 Q. Madam, now let me direct your attention, please, to the night of

15 the 22nd of October, 1993. Did anyone to your knowledge leave the village

16 on the night of 22nd October?

17 A. Yes. Ana Likic left the village. Her brother came to fetch her,

18 and he took Ana and her husband, Alija. Many Ana went to her

19 sister-in-law, Serifa, telling her to watch out and take care of

20 themselves, and then she left.

21 Q. Now, is it correct, madam that the woman you just mentioned is the

22 same woman you identified some moments ago earlier this afternoon as,

23 "this was the only Croat who lived in Stupni Do"?

24 A. Yes, yes. I'm sure that that was the case.

25 Q. And do you know who came and took her out of the village on the

Page 16207

1 night of the 22nd of October?

2 A. Her brother came, I don't know his name, and he took her from the

3 village.

4 Q. And before we move on to the next morning, can you tell the Judges

5 to your knowledge did anyone else leave the village of Stupni Do around

6 this time?

7 A. Yes. Prior to that, I don't know which date it was, only a woman

8 left with a child, her grandchild, who was four to five years old. How

9 they left the village, I don't know. Whether they received passes or not,

10 I don't know. I know that they used to be in the village, and then they

11 were the only ones who left it.

12 Q. So is it correct, then, madam that apart from Ana Likic and this

13 one woman and her grandchild that as of the night of the 22nd of October,

14 as far as you know, all the other members of the village were in the

15 village?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether this information that Ana Likic

18 had left the village, did that become known in the village that evening?

19 A. It became known because she told her sister-in-law, Serifa, that

20 she was leaving, and then she in turn informed the residents. I was at

21 home because my hamlet was further away from the village. My husband came

22 and he told me. We had a barn in the village and our cow was there, and

23 my husband had come from the village and he asked me what I was doing. I

24 was cooking dinner. He said, "Get your bags ready. Get everything

25 ready." And I asked him what happened, and he said Ana Likic had left.

Page 16208

1 Her brother came to fetch her. This was when panic started spreading in

2 all houses in the village.

3 Q. And can you tell the Judges a bit more about that, why? I mean,

4 why did the departure of this one woman and her husband from the village

5 have such an impact on the people living in the village?

6 A. Well, because she was the only Croat. And she was a wonderful

7 woman, a beautiful woman. I can't say a word against her. Her brother

8 came to take her away so that she would come to no harm, and based on that

9 we concluded that something would happen and, unfortunately, did happen.

10 Q. Apart from that, this event of Ana Likic leaving the village, can

11 you tell the Judges was there any other warning or notice that the HVO

12 would attack the village on the 23rd of October?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'm taking you now to the morning of the 23rd of October. Can you

15 tell the Judges what happened that morning?

16 A. Yes, I can. On the 23rd of October, at 8.00, a shell landed in

17 the village. Since I didn't know what was a shell, I hadn't had occasion

18 to hear it explode until that time. I was having breakfast with my

19 children in the house. My husband was sleeping, having returned at 7.00

20 from his duty in village guard. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 As I open the door, I could hear a lot of shooting. I didn't know

24 what was going on. I went back inside the house. My children were

25 crying. My husband had gotten up. He was awake. He was pale and

Page 16209

1 terrified.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An order, please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...

4 know what to do. We looked at each other. Then I went again. I saw a

5 boy. His name was Audin. He was screaming. He was terrified. Audin

6 Likic was his name. It was dum-dum ammunition, and it was exploding so

7 noisily that we thought we were all about to be killed.

8 And then he came inside and he asked me what to do with his cows.

9 I said, "Forget about your cows. Get inside the house," and he came in

10 the house. We started looking for a shelter inside the house. I was

11 trying to calm down the children. I felt also sorry for my husband. He

12 had never served as a soldier, and I felt bad about the fact that he

13 wasn't able to take charge of all of us, but that's how it was.

14 We came inside the bathroom. Everybody was in panic, crying. I

15 was calming down the children, trying to talk to them, and I was afraid

16 myself. I can't even tell you this coherently.

17 And then at one point I went towards a window because this house

18 was on an elevation and one could see the village, and as I approached the

19 window I saw that there were no more windowpanes and all the glass was

20 broken, and I came back to my family members. I told them that the

21 village was on fire. I didn't know what was going on, who was setting the

22 village on fire, and what was happening in the village.

23 My husband wanted to go out, but I preferred for myself to go out

24 because I didn't want anything to happen to him. However, he went out to

25 see Amir Likic. He lived next door to us. And we wanted to see what we

Page 16210

1 should be doing.

2 He spoke to Amir and his mother Rasida. She had a grandson called

3 Kabir and they made a decision to go to the shelter but I said we should

4 wait a little bit. I don't know how long we remained there. It's

5 impossible to described this to you. I don't think that even a movie

6 would be able to depict it to you realistically. It was that bad.


8 Q. Let me take you back for a moment, please, before you continue.

9 You said when you looked out the window at one point you could see the

10 village burning. Could you identify the houses of any particular

11 villagers, friends or neighbours or family, particular houses that were on

12 fire at that time?

13 A. Yes. I recognised the house of Nezir Beganovic that was on fire,

14 Serif Likic's house, Halid Likic's house, Hafo Likic's house. There were

15 some barns on fire. Everything was engulfed by fire.

16 Q. To go back a moment, you said a moment ago that there was

17 discussion about going to a shelter. What was this shelter, and what

18 happened?

19 A. Well, we had a shelter dug out close to the forest. It was

20 something that we called shelter, and it was a kind of a trench, dugout.

21 But since there was a clearing between us and the shelter, we were unable

22 to get to the shelter. So we decided to go to the house of Husnija

23 Mahmutovic which was across from our house.

24 Q. Approximately how far was Mr. Mahmutovic's house from your house?

25 A. About 20 metres, not more than that.

Page 16211

1 Q. And can you tell the Judges, please, the names of the persons who

2 moved from your house around this time to Mr. Mahmutovic's house?

3 A. Yes. From my house it was myself, my husband, my daughter, my

4 son, and Likic Audin. From Amir's house -- actually, it's the same

5 house. It was split in half between us. It was Amir Likic, Kabir Likic,

6 and Rasida Likic, nicknamed Sida, and we set out towards Husnija's house.

7 We were running across, across the road. Amir ran across, as did my

8 husband, Nedzad, and then Nedzad fell. I screamed. Nedzad got up and

9 said, "Mum, don't be afraid. I'm fine."

10 As I ran across, I saw that Adisa and Sida were missing. Prior to

11 me Audin had run across. I screamed at them saying, "Run across. Just

12 run," because it was a clearing and they were able to see us clearly and

13 to aim at us, to hit us. And this is how we reached the shelter at

14 Husnija Mahmutovic's.

15 Q. And when you arrived at Mr. Mahmutovic's house, did you find there

16 were other people who were already there? And who were they?

17 A. Yes. I found there Muamera Mahmutovic, Husnija's wife, her two

18 children Fuad and Mahir, his mother Fatima, his brother Edin, Rifet Likic,

19 Ramiza Likic. There was also a woman from Foca, Halima Kovac, and her

20 sons, Emir and Samir.

21 Q. And could you tell the Judges, please, approximately how long did

22 you remain at the Mahmutovic house?

23 A. Well, not exactly. I don't know exactly. Sometimes it seemed

24 like quite a long time. Sometimes it seemed like only a brief period of

25 time. Half an hour, an hour. I'm unable to say.

Page 16212

1 Q. And continue on. What happened after that?

2 A. After that Husnija Mahmutovic came, and he said that they had

3 already entered the village, the HVO army. My husband and Amir went out

4 to see what was going on and came back quickly inside the shelter. I

5 asked him what's going on, and he said, "We need to flee," because they

6 had entered the village, "and I don't know what's going to happen to us."

7 I was so sure that nothing whatsoever would happen to us. And while I was

8 talking to my husband, Amir Likic, Kabir, and Ramiza Likic ran out. They

9 fled to the forest without us noticing that. Then we moved towards the

10 door, and then all of a sudden there was such tremendous noise in

11 Husnija's house. People running. We could hear their shoes banging in

12 the house. They started yelling, cursing at us, cursing our balijas,

13 mothers.

14 Q. And you said you could hear boots on the floor?

15 A. In the basement, in the shelter.

16 Q. All right. And you say you could hear boots on the floor?

17 A. Of course. Of course, you could hear it from upstairs. There was

18 banging. There was cursing. We could hear all of it.

19 Q. What happened next?

20 A. We returned to the shelter because we were surrounded. We

21 couldn't go anywhere. We returned to the shelter. We didn't have any

22 small children there either. The youngest child was four or five years

23 old. We had to tell him to keep quiet. Everybody was terrified. We were

24 all quiet in this shelter, and all of a sudden we heard a woman's voice

25 shouting, "Get out. They'll kill you. They know about you." That was

Page 16213

1 Suada Likic who they had brought with her.

2 Now, did she tell us herself or did she have to tell us, I don't

3 know. I don't hold it against her, because whatever they said to her she

4 had to do.

5 Q. And what happened next?

6 A. Then we went out. Two soldiers came to the door. They said "Get

7 out or otherwise we're going to throw grenades and kill you." We went

8 out. We surrendered, all of us. We all went outside.

9 As we were getting out outside they started separating us, the

10 men, women, and children, but all of that was nearby, a metre or two, men

11 on one side, women on the other side. (redacted)

12 Q. Let me stop you.

13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we need to go into private session for a

14 few moments, please.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll move briefly

16 into private session, Mr. Registrar, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16214











11 Page 16214 redacted. Private session















Page 16215

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.


21 Q. Madam, we're back in open session and I want to go back. You said

22 that when you came out of the shelter there were HVO soldiers around. I

23 think -- I think it's -- we've lost the page on the transcript now, but

24 approximately how many soldiers do you recall seeing around the house when

25 you came out?

Page 16216

1 A. A lot. I saw between 20 and 40 of them. Lots of them, that's for

2 sure. And also on the road leading to Vares-Majdan, those who did not

3 quite walk up to us. I don't know. I don't know. It was a war. There

4 was shooting. I could not count all of these people, and I cannot know

5 all these details. I didn't have enough time. I didn't dare.

6 Q. Can you -- as best you can remember, ma'am, can you tell the

7 Judges how these HVO soldiers were dressed?

8 A. The HVO soldiers wore camouflage clothing, some of them, and

9 others in black clothing, and we first thought that they weren't even

10 HVO. We thought they were Serbs. Was it maybe the Serb army that came

11 from up there? What was this? What is this black? So that's how they

12 were equipped.

13 They had these white ribbons on their arms. I don't know what

14 that help.

15 Q. Where on their arms did they have these ribbons, if you remember?

16 A. Here. They were tied up here on their arms. I don't know why and

17 what for.

18 Q. Did you see any other symbols or badges on these soldiers?

19 A. Well, on this camouflage uniform you could see -- well, I mean,

20 who'd look? You would see that it's HVO insignia. On the black ones we

21 couldn't see anything.

22 Q. And did you see any other symbols or markings on their uniforms or

23 what they were wearing?

24 A. No. No. No. No. I just saw that they had this paint on, and

25 some of them had black ribbons on their heads. Some of them had crosses

Page 16217

1 around their necks. Some of them had wooden crosses, others had

2 glittering crosses and then they had the letter U. I don't know what that

3 meant. They looked like people who work on a railway except they had

4 black caps, sort of like that.

5 Q. And where about them, on their bodies or on their clothing, did

6 they have this letter U?

7 A. On the cap.

8 Q. Can you tell the Judges, did you recognise any of these HVO

9 soldiers as soldiers from Vares?

10 A. No. No. I didn't. I didn't really know many people, especially

11 not young-ish people. I was a housewife, you know. And I went to the

12 marketplace once a week selling my dairy products. I didn't know many

13 people. I knew perhaps older people or women who came to buy my cheese

14 and cream and other dairy products. Perhaps it's easier to explain it

15 that way. But my husband recognised one of them and called out his

16 name. "What are you doing to us? We're neighbours. Why don't you say

17 that we're not in any army?" And the other one hit him immediately and

18 said, "There's no neighbours here. It's only people from elsewhere." I

19 didn't really know anyone. I didn't recognise anyone.

20 Q. And can you tell the Judges whether -- you could see any other

21 parts of the village or houses on fire at that point after you'd been

22 taken out of the shelter and you were with this group of soldiers?

23 A. Yes. I saw my house was on fire and my barn was on fire.

24 Everything was on fire. The village was on fire as far as you could see.

25 Everything was on fire.

Page 16218

1 Q. Now, you said --

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16219











11 Page 16219 redacted. Private session















Page 16220

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.


9 Q. All right. Madam, you said a few minutes ago that when you were

10 taken out of the house, when you came out of the -- Husnija Mahmutovic's

11 house that there was some effort to separate the men and the women; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us more about what happened in that regard?

15 A. I can. They separated the men from the women. The men were on

16 one side, and we women and children were on the other side near Edin

17 Mahmutovic's small summer house. So it was only a metre or two away.

18 I really don't know what to say, how people were lined up.

19 Everybody was so afraid and --

20 Q. Sorry. Were the group of you standing on the road that ran

21 between your house and Mr. Mahmutovic's house?

22 A. No. That's when we got out of the shelter. That question belongs

23 there. So we were standing towards Mahmutovic Fatima's house and in the

24 middle there was this little summer house of Edin Mahmutovic. That's

25 where we were standing, right in front of Husnija's house when we got oust

Page 16221

1 shelter that is.

2 Q. All right. Now, as you were all then standing, with the men on

3 one side and the women on the other side, what happened next?

4 A. Well, what happened. It was so fast. They were swearing at us,

5 saying, "Hand over your money. Hand over your jewellery. Hand over

6 everything," and we did. We gave them everything we had, jewellery,

7 money. Then he walked up to Rifet Likic. He asked him for money and he,

8 poor thing, didn't have any money. He was young, a young man, and there

9 was a war, and he said, "I haven't got any money." And then this man hit

10 him on the right side. Since he didn't exactly cut him, he was facing us,

11 all the men were facing us, he sort of held on this way with his hands,

12 but there was blood seeping through his fingers.

13 Q. Ma'am -- ma'am, I'm sorry. Sorry to interrupt you, but we may

14 have missed something or it may have been something you said a few minutes

15 ago. You said just how that he hit him, but now you said that there

16 was -- you saw blood coming from his neck, the way you described it and

17 the way you showed it. What happened to him?

18 A. Oh, but of course. Of course. He hit him way up here across the

19 neck. It looked as if his throat had been slit. There was blood seeping

20 through his fingers. The children didn't dare look. The children closed

21 their eyes, whereas we had to see it. We had to see what was going on.

22 And Rifet bent over, and the soldier hit him, and he fell and --

23 Q. Sorry. Either -- it may be my question or it may be translation

24 or it may be just a misunderstanding, I'm sorry to interrupt you. When

25 you say he hit him in the throat, in the neck, did he had hit him with his

Page 16222

1 hand or was he holding anything in his hand when he hit him?

2 A. No. Knife. He was holding a knife. He used a knife, and he slit

3 his throat, but obviously he didn't quite slit it because otherwise he

4 couldn't bend over, but he did.

5 Q. And then what happened?

6 A. Rifet, as he was holding on this way, there was blood seeping

7 through his fingers, and then this one hit him with a rifle on the back

8 and he fell, and that's the side where we were. When you go from

9 Husnija's to Fatima's house there was this slope and he fell. And he shot

10 at him had, and again Rifet tried to get up. Now, the strength he had, I

11 really don't know. Then he got closer to him and then, you know, a few

12 times in the head. I don't know how many times. It was so fast. It was

13 like a burst of gunfire, and he walked up to my husband only, and my

14 husband --

15 Q. Sorry. Let my interrupt you again. When you said that this

16 soldier shot at Rifet, how far away was he? How far was the end of his

17 barrel of the gun, of the rifle, from Mr. Likic's body when the shots were

18 fired?

19 A. Well, say half a metre, not more than that. All of that is so

20 close.

21 Q. And you said at one point Rifet was still trying to get up?

22 A. Yes. Then again he was shot in the head, and then there was no

23 more Rifet. He was dead.

24 Q. What happened after that? Are you okay --

25 A. They went up to my husband --

Page 16223

1 Q. -- ma'am?

2 A. -- my husband. They were asking for money. He got his wallet

3 out, gave them what he had. I don't know myself how much money he had in

4 his wallet. He held his wallet in his left hand and he gave them the

5 money with his right hand. He ordered Edin and my husband to lie on their

6 stomachs, and they were close to me like this -- or, rather, on this side.

7 Q. How far was your husband from you when he was lying on the ground?

8 A. Well, like this. Like a metre and a half or two. And the rifle

9 was nearby, and then he shot him between the shoulder blades, and that's

10 how he killed Mahmutovic too. And then they were taking all of this

11 jewellery. And they killed the two of them.

12 I mean, I really don't know. I mean, I really cannot tell you

13 about all of these things that happened.

14 Q. Ma'am, I know this is difficult for you, but was your husband

15 killed immediately or did the two of you have a chance to see each other

16 before he died?

17 A. When he laid down, as they were to kill him, he turned to the left

18 and he looked at me. And I looked at him, and I saw them kill him. His

19 eyes were begging for help, but there was no help.

20 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think we should take the break now at

21 this point.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll take a

23 20-minute break.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

Page 16224

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I was told via the

2 Victims and Witnesses Section that the witness is concerned as to the

3 length of the examination, so for psychological reasons I will ask all

4 parties to try and reduce as much as they can the time they need for

5 questions. Thank you.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Madam, you've told us so far --

8 A. Thank you.

9 Q. You've told us so he far about the killing of Mr. Rifet Likic and

10 also your husband. Was there a boy named Mahir who was part of the group

11 that was gathered at the location you've described to us this afternoon?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did anything happen to him during this time?

14 A. One of the soldiers there -- I keep saying one of the soldiers,

15 you know, but one of the soldiers wanted to slash his throat, and he threw

16 him to the ground and took the knife out to slit his throat, and then when

17 he saw his mother leaning over, he saw that she had earrings in her ears,

18 and he started cursing and he said, "Look at her. She did not hand over

19 her earrings." So he let the boy go. And I approached the mother, took

20 the earrings, and gave them to the soldier.

21 Q. And the name of this woman, please?

22 A. Muamer Mahmutovic.

23 Q. And why did you take her earrings and give them to the soldier?

24 A. Well, once I saw them at the ready with the knife, I was worried

25 that they would cut off her ears or something. So I jumped in to take her

Page 16225

1 earrings off. I don't even know where I got that strength. I guess I was

2 totally unconscious of my own power at that moment, but I did it to help.

3 Q. Was the -- I think you mentioned earlier when I ask you who was at

4 the shelter, who came out, that sort of thing, but was a woman named Sida

5 Likic part of this group?

6 A. Yes, she was. She stood next to me in the line. She was first,

7 and then I was next, and then Nedzad was next to me. He was 14, but he

8 wasn't tall. I mean, he appeared to be younger.

9 Q. And what happened to Sida Likic at this time?

10 A. Sida Likic asked that they not harm the children. They said,

11 "Why? Are the children bothering you?" And then this man kicked Sida,

12 and he bent her over a stump that was used to cut -- to chop wood, and

13 then he fired in her shoulders, between her shoulders. Sida was all bent

14 over. She was crying. She was saying, "My legs are hurting," but it was

15 all to no avail.

16 Q. In the transcript, just before we continue on, you said that Sida

17 Likic asked that they not harm the children, and they said, "Why? Are the

18 children bothering you?" Is that something that they the soldiers said,

19 "Why? Are the children bothering you?", or is that something that the

20 Sida Likic said?

21 A. No. Sida Likic said that. "Why are you harming the children?

22 Why are the children bothering you?" She begged them, "Do not harm us,"

23 but they killed her nevertheless.

24 Q. I would like you now to look at -- there's a bundle of documents

25 there in front of you or to your -- on your right side under the tissues.

Page 16226

1 A. Could you please help me with the numbers?

2 Q. Yes, please. Would you please go to Exhibit 9886. It may be

3 helpful, usher, if you could maybe put that on the -- we have an extra

4 copy we can put on the ELMO.

5 Ma'am, while that's being done, let me just go back and again just

6 clarify something while we're in the process of getting the document

7 together.

8 You said that they had Sida bent over a stump that was used to

9 cut -- to chop wood, and then he fired in her shoulders. It may be

10 obvious, but when you say he fired in her shoulders, what do you mean?

11 What happened? Ma'am?

12 A. Well, he fired at her, killed her. That's obvious. She was

13 lifeless. She was all bent over as they threw her on the ground. That's

14 how she remained lying there. One of my legs was under her, and I had to

15 pull my leg out so that they wouldn't see it. I was afraid. I was afraid

16 just like anybody is afraid of dying. That's how I pulled out my leg, and

17 she remained lying there. I could see her muscles contracting and then

18 they stopped, and I could see her coat moving.

19 Q. All right. Now, can I ask you to look at this diagram, please,

20 and I know that the writing -- all or most of the writing on the document

21 is in English, but that's not what I'm asking you about. If you can look

22 at the diagram, please, enough to orient yourself to -- to it, and then

23 I'm going to ask you, please, if you could point out your house on this

24 map. And I guess I should say, first of all, is this a diagram or map of

25 the village of Stupni Do?

Page 16227

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And can you find your house on the map, please?

3 A. Yes, I can. This is where my house is, right here, and then this

4 is the house of Husnija Mahmutovic. This is the shelter. This is the

5 summer house of Edin Mahmutovic.

6 Q. Ma'am, let me stop you for a moment.

7 A. This is the house of Fatima Mahmutovic.

8 Q. The Judges can't see what you're pointing out. Can ask you to use

9 the map that is on this machine to the right, and the usher will help you,

10 because that way everyone in the courtroom will be able to see what you're

11 pointing to. So again can you please -- looking at that diagram, can you

12 show us where your house was located.

13 A. This is my house, right here.

14 Q. And can I ask you, please, to -- if a marker can be provided to

15 the witness.

16 Can you circle your house, please, draw a circle around your house

17 and put number 1?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. And where -- then you talked about going across -- travelling a

20 distance of approximately 20 metres to the house of Husnija Mahmutovic.

21 Can you show us Mr. Mahmutovic's house?

22 A. Yes. This is the house of Husnija Mahmutovic. This is where we

23 came down, crossed the road, and came to his house here.

24 Q. Can I ask you please to draw a circle around that and mark that

25 number 2.

Page 16228

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Now, at the time that your husband and these others were killed,

3 can you show us the location -- that location on the map?

4 A. We were right next to this summer house, and they were right next

5 to us here in front of Husnija's house. This is all next to each other.

6 Two or three metres away, from this house to Husnija's house.

7 Q. Can I ask you to just mark that location that you've just been

8 pointing to with a number 3.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. All right. Thank you. In a few minutes, madam, we're going to

11 talk about -- you may have just mentioned it now, but while we have the

12 map in front of us could you also show us again, if you have already,

13 these -- what you call the summer house? Where was that located?

14 A. Number 3 is the small house of Edin Mahmutovic, and then this is

15 the house of Fatima, his mother, the one that we haven't marked yet.

16 Q. All right. Let me ask you to do exactly that. Can you please

17 mark Fatima's house and put a circle around that and please mark that with

18 a number 4.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, I have no further questions about this

22 diagram, but if the -- if the Judges had a question now, perhaps it would

23 be the appropriate time. No. Okay. Thank you very much. We are

24 finished with that drawing then.

25 If we can get an IC number for that, please.

Page 16229

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document will become Exhibit IC

2 507.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, can you please sign this

4 document.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somewhere here. Here.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much.

7 Q. During the time when you were in this -- the area that you've been

8 describing now for some minutes this afternoon, did you at any time see a

9 soldier that you knew or came to know as Como?

10 A. No. We heard them call out the name, but as I was giving this

11 statement for The Hague Tribunal, I didn't dare give any names because my

12 brother is a lawyer and he said that that could harm my children. He said

13 I should watch out because you never know what people might do behind your

14 back. So I never wanted to give those names. I called and called out the

15 name of Como, Ljubo. Ljubo is a Serbian name. And it seemed to me as

16 though they wanted to create confusion, to mislead us with those names.

17 And then the one called Como was angry that they were calling out names.

18 That's how I knew those names, but I didn't recognise anyone's appearance.

19 Some of them were disguised. They had painted faces and all that. I

20 didn't recognise any of them.

21 Q. When you said a moment ago that the one called Como became angry

22 that people were speaking out loud and calling out names, what did he do

23 or say when he became angry about that?

24 A. He yelled at them and he cursed them, but the words that he used

25 are bad, in my opinion. He cursed God, and he told them, "Why are you

Page 16230

1 using names?" He used bad language, and then they stopped calling out

2 names.

3 Q. Let me ask you at this point before we move on to another topic,

4 during that day on the 23rd of October, at this point and at any point

5 while you were able to look out at the village or moving about the village

6 yourself, did you see any women in the village carrying a weapon?

7 A. Well, had we had weapons, some people would have defended

8 themselves. Where could we have obtained weapons? How could have women

9 obtained weapons? If I had a weapon I wouldn't allow anyone to approach

10 me in the shelter. Things that happened to me would not have happened to

11 me. I didn't know anyone who had any weapons.

12 Q. Let me -- just for purposes -- so the record is clear, ma'am, we

13 have your general answer, but let me just be very specific, if you can

14 answer my question. Did you see any women in Stupni Do on 23rd of

15 October, 1993, who were carrying or firing a weapon?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. Now, you've mentioned several times that when -- for instance,

18 when you were gathered there together, the group of you that you've told

19 us about this afternoon, that money and jewellery was taken away from you.

20 Can you tell the Judges whether any property was taken from houses?

21 A. Yes. The soldiers took out things of value. I saw one soldier

22 taking out of Husnija Mahmutovic's house new sneakers. He tied them

23 around his neck, and they were just hanging there. Then one of them took

24 a backpack saying, "I will take this to my wife." And he threw the other

25 bag of ours into fire so that everything perished in fire and we had

Page 16231

1 nothing, absolutely nothing.

2 Q. Did you see any other houses being put on fire after your husband

3 was killed?

4 A. I saw the village and everything around it on fire. Everything

5 was on fire. We thought that nobody else was alive, that we were the only

6 ones who were there and were captured. We didn't know what was going to

7 happen to us.

8 Q. Can you identify the Judges -- up to that point in time, and when

9 I say that point in time, ma'am, I'm talking about when you were still

10 there in that area around where your husband and the others had been

11 killed, were there any houses in that area up to that point had not been

12 put on fire?

13 A. No. They were on fire. Just Husnija's and Fatima's house were

14 not on fire yet. My house had already been on fire. Likic's house was --

15 my large barn was on fire too. I saw it burning. And then just the

16 houses immediately around us were not on fire yet.

17 Q. And was anything -- did you hear the soldiers, the HVO soldiers,

18 say anything about those houses?

19 A. Well, no. Just at one point in time a soldier cursed us, insulted

20 us in all kinds of ways. Then he said, "What are you going to do?

21 There's no Alija to defend you." And we really didn't need anything at

22 that point because we didn't know whether we would survive. It was

23 terrible. Those were terrible shocks, traumas. I have scars from them to

24 this day.

25 Q. Did anything happen then to Husnija's house and Fatima's house?

Page 16232

1 A. Yes. A soldier yelled out, "Why aren't they setting houses on

2 fire?" And then he fired into Husnija's house. He fired from some kind

3 of a weapon. I'm totally ignorant when it comes to weapons. And then

4 all of a sudden the roof came in and the house was on fire. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 MR. SCOTT: If we can please go into private session for a few

9 moments, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, for a few minutes let's

11 move into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16233











11 Page 16233 redacted. Private session















Page 16234

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]


23 Q. Ma'am, I'd like to direct your attention now to -- we've mentioned

24 the several times already today the summer house. Can you tell the Judges

25 then what happened in connection -- anything involving the summer house,

Page 16235

1 and if you could just basically take us through what happened.

2 A. Yes. When they killed Rasida Likic, a soldier started firing

3 around my feet, trying to taunt me. I was totally powerless. I guess I

4 was in shock, but I didn't beg him. I didn't cry. The one with Motorola

5 said, "No more killing. She deserves a bullet, but she's not going to get

6 one." Then the other one asked, "What are we going to do with them?" The

7 commander ordered that even children in -- in cradles had to be killed.

8 The houses were on fire. Fatima's and Husnija's houses were already on

9 fire. I was afraid they would throw us into the fire alive. My two

10 children were with me.

11 One of them said, "We are going to set them on fire in this small

12 house," and he forced us into the house. This was a young man. He looked

13 terribly. His eyes were all bloody. He came inside this house. Edin

14 Mahmutovic lived there. He was a bit mentally disturbed. It's not that

15 he was harmful to anyone. He took his eau de cologne and drank it. I

16 could see right away that this was unimaginable. How can somebody drink

17 that? How could somebody do that? He threw things around the house. He

18 forced us into a corner, made us sit there, the 12 of us remaining there.

19 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment, I'm sorry. You just said 12

20 people. Who was gone -- who was put into the summer house at that point

21 in time?

22 MR. SCOTT: And, Your Honour, I think it would be safer and we

23 could move more quickly if we could just go into private session for a

24 moment.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

Page 16236

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.


19 Q. And again was at some point the summer house put on fire?

20 A. We did not see how they put the summer house on fire. We stayed

21 there quiet, terrified. The soldier who went out locked the door. We

22 heard the key as he locked the door. We were so afraid. Then he wanted

23 to see whether he could open the door. He kicked the door.

24 As I was standing there, I couldn't sit down, the children were on

25 this bed or whatever. I don't know what word to use for it. I was

Page 16237

1 standing. This door was low, and I saw the HVO soldiers moving about

2 putting corpses into the fire, but I did not see who it was that they were

3 carrying. I just saw them carrying them.

4 I stayed there, sitting there for a long time.

5 Q. Can you give the Judges any more information about in which house,

6 if you can, the soldiers, the HVO soldiers were putting bodies?

7 A. Fatima Mahmutovic's house. That's where they carried the corpses.

8 They set us on fire and left. My -- my son was sitting by the window in

9 the small summer house, and he looked through the window and said, "Mum,

10 you ought to see this, all these soldiers moving through the village."

11 And I looked through the window and I saw there was no one. I just saw

12 this one man running. I did not see masses of people, and I was wondering

13 whether my child had gone crazy by then.

14 So we were waiting, and all of a sudden the windows started

15 breaking because it was so hot. The fire was getting close to us, and I

16 was suggesting that we should get out. It's better for them to kill us

17 with a bullet than to burn. And everybody was crying and begging me,

18 "Mum, don't open the door. We have water here. We will try to put the

19 fire out." But nevertheless, I decided, and Suada Likic saw this little

20 axe on this little piece of furniture that we have in the village, and I

21 got up and I asked Fatima Mahmutovic just to hit the lock so that it gets

22 a bit shaky and then I would open the door with a little axe. And then I

23 said to them, "Run to the woods. Whoever they kill, they will kill.

24 Whoever they wound, they will wound, but just run to the forest."

25 I went out to see where the corps were. I guess I was in a state

Page 16238

1 of shock. I didn't see anything. I didn't hear them running next to me,

2 nothing.

3 As I turned around I walked into this little house. Fatima was

4 standing by herself next to the doorstep, and I said, "Why didn't you

5 leave?" And she said, "I can't," because her son had been kill. She

6 said, "I cannot run. I cannot escape. I cannot go." And I said, "I

7 can," as I was so afraid. I ran towards my children to see where they

8 were. But before that I just looked a bit to see whether I could get the

9 corpses out. No, it was not possible. All three houses were on fire,

10 Husnija's and Edin's and Fatima's. You could not even stand close to

11 that. It wasn't like fire -- well, what kind of fire was it? Was it

12 because of the furniture or the clothing. You could feel all these

13 smells, all sorts of things. That's the way --

14 Q. Let me ask you -- sorry. Let me ask you before we have to move

15 forward, you said you looked a bit to "see whether I could get the corpses

16 out." Could you see any of the corpses that were in the house, any of the

17 burning houses at that time and, if so, if you could identify them, then

18 please do. Sorry to ask you that, but if you can.

19 A. No, I couldn't see because the fire was getting out of the door.

20 I couldn't see. I couldn't figure it out. I just saw that they carried

21 them in there, and I just tried to look through the fire to see whether I

22 could save someone from that fire.

23 Q. And after you escaped from the summer house and after you had

24 tried to look around into what you've just described, look into these

25 burning houses, what did you and the others do after that?

Page 16239

1 A. Well, I went to the woods. I found the children, the women who

2 had fled down towards the forest. Amir and Ramiza, I found them too.

3 They were with us before. They were in the forest as well. They asked me

4 where Fatima was, and I told them she stayed behind, I don't know, in the

5 little house up there, and I followed the children. I said to Amir, "Your

6 mother was killed. Don't wait. There is nothing to wait for any more.

7 We have to go into the forest. We have to seek shelter." And that's how

8 we left.

9 The first night in the forest we were on our own. We didn't know

10 if anybody from the village had survive. We didn't know what was going

11 on.

12 Q. And how long were you in the forest before you either came to a

13 check-point or someone collected you, or how long were you in the forest,

14 approximately?

15 A. We were in that forest until the morning of the 25th, Monday. The

16 people who survived sort of gathered there. I don't know how they

17 survived.

18 In the morning, after dawn, we all gathered there, and then we

19 spent another night there. And then on Monday, the 25th, we decided to

20 surrender to the HVO yet again since we had little babies. They didn't

21 have any food. It wasn't even possible to breast feed them because the

22 women were in trouble out of fear or whatever. Also, there were some

23 women who could or could not get their period. They didn't have any

24 sanitary pads. And we all started smelling, and we couldn't stand the

25 sight of one another any longer. And then we decided to surrender, to go

Page 16240

1 further on.

2 Q. Before you go further with your story, could you tell the Judges

3 by Monday the 25th of October, approximately how many people from the

4 village had gathered together by that time in the forest?

5 A. Well, not say anything for sure, but there were about a hundred of

6 us. Up to 100. I don't know whether it was exactly 100, but it was

7 women, children, old men.

8 Q. Ma'am, I'm going to -- at the moment I'm going to show you some

9 additional exhibits, and if we have time I will come back to try to finish

10 very quickly the rest of your story, if you will, but before we do that

11 can I ask you if, in that bundle that is in front you, can you look at

12 6116. And Exhibit 6116, madam, and for the courtroom, is a collection of

13 nine photographs. Can you just tell the Judges briefly -- in looking at

14 these photographs yesterday, can you confirm that these were all

15 photographs of the village of Stupni Do after the attack on the 23rd of

16 October, 1993?

17 A. Yes. This is Stupni Do. These are photographs of Stupni Do.

18 Q. All right. Let me ask you -- each of the pictures has a number on

19 it you will see, and again because of the time I'm going to ask if you can

20 please find -- I think the first photograph in the bundle is 0035-7812.

21 Perhaps if in e-court we could go to that if possible. 7812.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell -- in looking at that, can you tell the Judges if you

24 recognise or know anyone's -- that to be anyone's house or one of those

25 remaining structures, whatever's left to be the house of anyone that you

Page 16241

1 knew at the time?

2 A. It is hard to recognise all of this, but these are houses of

3 Stupni Do. This is Arif Likic and Salih Likic's house. And then up here,

4 well ...

5 Q. Can I ask you, please, if you continue through the bundle and if

6 you can please find the photograph that is marked 0035-7832.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to a house that's roughly --

9 not exactly but roughly in the middle of the photograph, and at least

10 according to the light it looks as if -- whether it does or not, it looks

11 as if it has kind of a blue wall. Do you recognise that house and who had

12 lived there?

13 A. The one in the middle of the photograph is Salim Likic's house.

14 Then down here is Mujo Likic's; then Alija Likic; and then Rozovic,

15 Dragica, her barn, and I don't know, all these ruins put together.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, because of time unless the Chamber wants

17 to I'm not going to mark the individual houses, but again of course if the

18 Chamber wants to do that we can, but obviously it will take time.

19 Q. Can I ask you to go to exhibit -- photograph 0035-8464.

20 MR. SCOTT: I'll just ask the usher -- we're going to be going

21 through all the remaining documents, and it may be easier for you to just

22 assist her there.

23 Q. If you can find 35 -- 0035-8464. Can you identify that house, the

24 house shown in that photograph, please?

25 A. Yes. This is Fatima Mahmutovic's house.

Page 16242

1 Q. And if we can go, please -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, but if we can

2 go into private session for just one or two questions.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]


20 Q. Usher, can you assist the witness, please, by directing her

21 attention to Exhibit 6314.

22 Madam, Exhibit 6314 is a bundle of autopsy reports, and can I

23 please ask you if you can find toward the end of the bundle in the Bosnian

24 language on page 41.

25 MR. SCOTT: The English pages are numbered, page 41, Your Honours.

Page 16243

1 Q. And if you have that -- and if you look for the one that has the

2 name Mehmed Likic. Do you have that? Do you see it, ma'am?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is this an autopsy of person who -- identified here as your

5 husband, Mehmed Likic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In looking at the report, ma'am, can I ask you is it correct that

8 it says that the body of this person was "completely carbonised"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. At the time when you saw your husband being killed, as you

11 described for us early this afternoon, was his -- it may be stating the

12 obvious, but can you tell the Judges, was his body at any time around that

13 time on fire?

14 A. No. No, I couldn't get to the body. Had I seen him, I would have

15 saved him even though he was dead.

16 Q. And can I ask you, a few pages back, if you move a few pages back

17 toward the front of that bundle can you please find a similar document

18 concerning Refet Likic -- Rifet Likic, on page 37 of the English

19 translation?

20 A. Yes. Rifet Likic is Mehmed's brother's son.

21 Q. And did also -- looking at the text or the content of the report,

22 do you see that it also indicates that, this "body carbonised"?

23 A. Yes. They were together. They were burned together. The bodies

24 were carbonised and taken for a post-mortem, but I have never believed

25 that they could tell who was who, but they were buried one next to the

Page 16244

1 other so that the wounds and scars would be less painful.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Exhibits 8662, 8660, 8663, and 8658 are

3 respectively the death certificates of Mehmed Likic, Rifet Likic, Rasida

4 Likic, and Edin Mahmutovic. I would hope that there would not be any

5 dispute about that, and I wouldn't take the time with the witness to show

6 her those documents if we don't need to.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections and I think that --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: -- that's on behalf of all the accused.

11 MR. SCOTT: One final -- yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have seen all these documents

13 yesterday, Mr. Scott.

14 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. One last document, then, and then we will conclude the -- at least

16 my questions will be concluded. If you can 8382 [Realtime transcript read

17 in error "8232"], please.

18 Can you just tell the Judges briefly what that document is?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There must be a mistake on the

20 transcript. I think it should be -- it should read 8382.

21 MR. SCOTT: You're absolutely right, Your Honour. If I misspoke,

22 my apologies.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right. Right.


25 Q. And what is that document, ma'am?

Page 16245

1 A. Well, this is, I guess, a document concerning my house in Stupni

2 Do, that it was destroyed, set on fire, built in 1978, and the size of the

3 house, 8 X 4, and so on. The basement consists of a basement. The house

4 was built in 1978. The house is 8 X 8, and it consists of a basement

5 and -- and a ground floor. What's this, this 4, 4 --

6 Q. Let me just ask you in the interests of time, is this the record

7 of an inspection that was done in 1994 just to confirm the property lost

8 by you and your family on the 23rd of October, 1993?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Just to conclude, then, madam, and again we don't have the time to

11 go through this in all detail, you said a few moments ago that because of

12 the poor conditions that the group were in, there were babies, people were

13 cold, there was no food, did you turn yourself in to an HVO check-point?

14 A. Yes. We turned ourselves in at a check-point of Pajtov Han,

15 towards the village of Strijezovo and towards Breza. That's where we

16 went. We got out of the forest. We decided to surrender. My daughter

17 didn't want to. She stayed on, and then she stayed with a friend, and her

18 friend told her what it was that had happen. She didn't want to go

19 without her, and she stayed with my daughter, and her father stayed, too,

20 and we surrendered.

21 As we appeared, as we got out of the forest we saw their APCs and

22 their check-point and there was this camouflage APC facing Vares and it

23 was painted all camouflage and shooting started straight away. They

24 started shooting at us straight away. They were shooting in order to

25 scare us but they didn't wound any one of us. We just walked up to the

Page 16246

1 check-point, and when we got to the check-point, we just found three

2 soldiers there at the check-point.

3 Q. All right. What I'm going to have you ask you now, please, is

4 just -- later after this -- approaching the check-point and having seen

5 these three soldiers, did there come a time when UNPROFOR vehicles, the UN

6 protection force, in other words, that the UNPROFOR vehicles came to this

7 check-point and collected you?

8 A. The UNPROFOR vehicles did not arrive immediately. I don't know

9 how much time went by and what happened, but we were there for a long

10 time, and we didn't know what it was that was moving from down there

11 because they said that nothing or no one could move up or down. And then

12 they put us into this prefabricated building. Who wanted to go into it

13 could go in, and who didn't want to could stay in front on the road. And

14 we were supposed to get onto -- into these vehicles, and then there was

15 this curve, and we said we'd better sit on this road and let them run us

16 over. There's nothing else for us to do.

17 The women went out with the children. There were wounded men,

18 women, little girls. We were all there. And then all of a sudden two

19 sort of little trucks, or whatever, of UNPROFOR came. It wasn't an APC.

20 And it stopped, and as they stopped a young-ish man got out. I don't know

21 whether he was a Swede or whatever. He got out, and he said, "Are you the

22 women from Stupni Do?" And the women started crying, screaming. Children

23 were crying. And they -- and he said, "Take it easy. Take it easy. I

24 don't understand much Bosnian, but I can help you." Things got a bit more

25 quiet. He offered the women milk and to the children, too, gave them some

Page 16247

1 food as well, and even now in my years I hear the children saying, "Give

2 us bread. Give us bread."

3 He walked up to this soldier. They called Cicko. Some of them

4 knew him from before. I didn't know him until that day. And he said, I

5 mean this Swede said that Cicko should stay away from us, and the HVO

6 soldiers too. They didn't want to. He was very fair. He ordered the

7 soldiers to do what they could with their weapons, and then he started

8 negotiating with Cicko. And he said, "I want to take these women and

9 children from Stupni Do. Can I talk to Duznovic, and where am I going to

10 find Duznovic?" Cicko said, "Duznovic has nothing to do with this. You

11 will have to negotiate with Ivica Rajic and Ivica Gavran." I remember

12 that, and I said to my son Nedzad, "Remember those two names, son, if I

13 die." I was so exhausted I couldn't stand on my two feet, and I couldn't

14 walk any more, but I knew that this Ivica Rajic -- I mean, that this last

15 name did not exist in Vares, and I was wondering what was this, and what

16 did this man hold against us in our village? Why did he come to our

17 village and do what he did to us?

18 Q. Ma'am, let me just stop with this: Were you then taken by

19 UNPROFOR later that day to Breza?

20 A. Those who could not move around at all went to Breza, the wounded,

21 women who had young children. I wanted to get onto the truck, too, but

22 there was no more room left.

23 Another group of HVO soldiers came up, and I guess this one

24 soldier knew me, and he walked up to me and he congratulated me on going

25 to my own people. And I don't know what people I was with before then. I

Page 16248

1 fell. He lifted me up, and he said, "Fuck you, woman, what's wrong with

2 you now? You're going out to be free." And I said my daughter's in the

3 forest. And he said, "Stay behind. You and I will go to the forest to

4 find her." I guess this man was one of our people from Vares who wanted

5 to help me, but I couldn't move. I couldn't walk. I couldn't return.

6 And I said, "Please, if my daughter comes up, please don't do anything to

7 her. Let her leave. Let her get out." That's the promise he made.

8 And we set out. I was taken by two Swedish men who helped me

9 walk. Each took one side of my arm. And there was a column between the

10 trucks. And I couldn't speak to them, but they took me to about one

11 kilometre away from their check-point. Someone from the forest shouted

12 out, "Ferida, Ferida, come over here. Your countryman." And when they

13 asked me what they were saying I didn't dare say. I didn't say. I

14 suppose it was the BH army. And the person who knew how to speak came by

15 and told them to come up closer and they did come up closer, closer to us.

16 They approached us, two men, and they took me over on a stretcher and took

17 me towards Strijezovo. And Nedzad my son went towards Breza and my

18 daughter remained in the forest.

19 Q. Let me just ask you, ma'am, and I'm afraid we'll have to leave it

20 at this: Then were you reunited in the next couple of days with your son

21 and your daughter in Breza?

22 A. Yes. I waited for two days. I was staying with my sister-in-law.

23 Some people said, "She's left the forest." Others said she hadn't. I

24 wasn't sure what had happened. I wasn't conscious of anything. And then

25 a cousin of my husband's came by and said, "Your son's with me. You

Page 16249

1 needn't worry. He's in Breza." And then I set out on foot towards Breza,

2 and so did go of my other neighbours, women. And two days later I was at

3 Strijezovo, and we went across some fields to Dabravine, the village of

4 Dabravine, and suddenly a car appeared, a red car. I expected (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An order, please.

8 Please proceed, madam.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The man got out. I didn't know him,

10 but the woman who was with me, it was a cousin of hers, and they kissed by

11 way of greeting and she cried. And he said, "Why are you crying? Where

12 are your children?" And she said, "Here." She had two little sons. And

13 she said, "Why are you crying? How do you suppose this other woman

14 feels?" And I started crying even more. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's try to conclude, please,

21 Mr. Scott.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16250

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]


15 Q. Ms. Likic, I want to thank you very much for coming to The Hague

16 and giving this very important testimony. I know it's been very difficult

17 for you. I'm sorry for that. But I think that everyone in the courtroom

18 appreciates your courage in telling your story. Thank you very much.

19 A. Thank you, too. Thank you for having me come here. I haven't

20 come here to -- because of anyone or because I like The Hague. I just

21 want the truth to be known, a truth that's been waited for 14 years.

22 That's why I have come, to help my dead buried in the ground, to know that

23 I still live for them and speak for them. Thank you.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

Page 16251

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mrs. Likic, I would like to ask you a very simple

2 question just because there might be a confusion. The woman who had been

3 standing next to you and was shot in the back when she was over a stump,

4 you said she was called Sida. At another moment you called her Rasida,

5 and there is also a document, "Rasida." Am I right in supposing that Sida

6 is short for Rasida and it's the same person?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Hvala ljepo.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. She was nicknamed Sida but her

10 real name was Rasida. Thank you too.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, madam. Can we

12 continue before the break? It may be that the Defence might have very few

13 questions.

14 Mr. Karnavas.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

16 Your Honours. I have no questions for this witness but we do wish to

17 thank her for coming here to The Hague to give her evidence.

18 Thank you very much, ma'am.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

20 Mr. Murphy.

21 MR. MURPHY: We also have no questions.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

23 Ms. Pinter.

24 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, the Defence

25 of General Praljak does have some questions, three questions, but may we

Page 16252

1 go into private session for that, please.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Private session for

3 three questions.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16253











11 Page 16253 redacted. Private session















Page 16254

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, please.

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, madam, we have no

23 questions for you. Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. Thank you for

25 understanding me.

Page 16255

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours,

2 we have no questions either.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President,

4 thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have no question. Any

7 redirect, Mr. Scott?

8 MR. SCOTT: Ever so briefly, Your Honour. I just -- this issue of

9 the name, I don't think we need to be in private session for the name of

10 this individual.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we might have to do that

12 because we went into private session the first time. So back -- back to

13 private session, please.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16256

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in open session, I want to

19 thank you on behalf of my fellow Judges. Thank you for coming to testify

20 in The Hague on events that are particularly painful for you. We are ever

21 so thankful to you. Our very best wishes for your return to your country.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you too. Thank

23 you to the Defence counsel and the Prosecution for understanding me. You

24 all understood me nicely, and I'm happy that I was able to go through all

25 this. Thank you. Thank you once again.

Page 16257

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Usher is going

2 to take you out the courtroom.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, just before we

5 conclude, with regard to next week we have a schedule, don't we? As far

6 as I know there is no problem, is there?

7 MR. SCOTT: No. Excuse me, Your Honour. No. I don't think any

8 of these individuals will have protective measures. I hate -- I would

9 hate to make a mistake, but, no. The individuals next week are all

10 scheduled. As you know Mr. van der Weijden is returning for

11 cross-examination on Monday, and I believe it's followed by Mr. Burger and

12 also Mr. Draper who are both UNPROFOR officers.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 Well, listen, today the hearing stands adjourned. We shall

15 reconvene next week on Monday at 2.15. Thank you.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.17 p.m.

17 To be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day

18 of March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.