1 Thursday, 21 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Coric not present]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please call
8 the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
10 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor
11 versus Prlic et al. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. This is June 21st, 2007.
13 Last day of the hearing for this witness. I would like first to welcome
14 our witness and representatives from the Prosecution, counsel for Defence,
15 as well as the accused. I note that Mr. Coric is still away, and I wish
16 him well and hope he comes back soon.
17 Furthermore, I must read a short oral decision regarding the
18 extension of a deadline.
19 On June 14th, 2007, the Chamber was seized of a motion by the
20 Prosecution requesting an extension of deadline to file its seven-day
21 answer after the filing of the new motion from Prlic's Defence requiring
22 the case to be disjoined. Accused Prlic filed his new motion on June 19,
23 2007. The Chamber, according to Rule 126 bis, is granting the motion and
24 gives the Prosecution seven days as of 19 June 2007, i.e., up until June
25 26, 2007, to file the request. So the Prosecution will have seven days to
1 file the answer, following the request of Prlic's motion requesting a
2 severance of his own case.
3 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, regarding the time
5 allotted, according to the registrar's calculations, 3D still has one
6 hour, 4D has 35 minutes, and 6D, 30 minutes. Of course, you can split the
7 time as you wish among each other.
8 While we're at it, to make sure that we don't forget it, next week
9 we will have a witness scheduled for the entire week. It's a witness
10 coming from the European Mission. The Prosecution has been allotted six
11 hours, and the Defence will have eight hours, unless counsel change the
12 time -- split the time among each other. But the Chamber believes that
13 Mr. Pusic should have one hour and 40 minutes; Mr. Prlic should have one
14 hour and 40 minutes; Mr. Stojic, one hour and 40 minutes; Mr. Petkovic,
15 one hour and 40 minutes; and the two other accused will each get 40
16 minutes. The time was split in this manner because Messrs. Pusic, Prlic,
17 Petkovic, and Coric met the witness, which was not the case for the two
18 others, because the four -- the four ones at first had met the witness
19 during meetings and the others hadn't. But, of course, you can split the
20 time as you want, and maybe Prosecution will not use its six hours since
21 many exhibits have already been shown to another witness.
22 Now we'll continue with the hearing, and I will give the floor to
23 Ms. Alaburic.
24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
25 morning to all in the courtroom.
1 Your Honours, I see that in terms of this time calculation our
2 Defence has 35 minutes left. I would just like to draw your attention to
3 the fact that, in agreement with my colleague Mr. Karnavas, I ceded about
4 10 minutes of my time to the Prlic Defence because I gave General
5 Praljak's Defence about 20 or 25 minutes. That's what I promised them, so
6 that I would have half an hour left. I know that Mr. Karnavas used more
7 than these 10-odd minutes that I ceded to him, but I thought that we have
8 a relatively long day today in terms of the six hours for
9 cross-examination, so I would like, therefore, my time to be corrected,
10 and could you please record it as 50 minutes rather than 30. Thank you.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, the Bench is a bit
13 surprised. We thought that the time you had given to Mr. Karnavas was
14 going to be subtracted from the time allotted to you. And since you also
15 ceded time to Mr. Praljak, there we are. According to our calculations,
16 you only have 35 minutes left. I believe that you will take the floor
17 last, and if we have time left, of course we will grant you additional
18 time. We'll first start with the others, and if we have time left, you
19 will get it. But as you know, the allotment of time is extremely
20 complicated. Personally, I'd rather that you settled the matter amongst
21 yourselves, among counsel, and that we wouldn't have to intervene.
22 Unfortunately, we have to intervene in order to settle problems, but it's
24 I believe that Mr. Praljak's Defence is up.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Praljak.
2 WITNESS: AZRA KRAJSEK [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, madam. I would kindly ask you, due
6 to the fact that our time is short, that we simply go through some
7 documents, and could you just briefly reply whether you do know about
8 something or do not, as you've been doing until now.
9 As I worked in the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia,
10 as I was involved in political activity there, we had to deal with the
11 question of refugees often. I don't know if you know that the Croatian
12 army very often made available some of their own facilities, hotels, in
13 the area of Gasinci. Do you know about that?
14 A. To the extent to which the media reported on it at the time, yes.
15 Q. Do you also know that since the Croatian army was expeditious
16 then, do you know that Adalbert Rebic often asked us to put people up
17 quickly, to intervene from the point of view of construction, building,
18 and so on? Do you know about that?
19 A. No, I don't know about that.
20 Q. You don't know about that. Could you please look at this binder
21 that you have here and could we go through education in the Republic of
22 Croatia first given to refugees.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D 001096.
24 Q. Have you found the document?
25 A. I cannot. I haven't. What's the last digit? The last number I
1 have here is 921. I haven't got 96. Oh, sorry, I do have it -- no.
2 Q. The third one from the end.
3 A. The third one from the end.
4 Q. Oh, sorry, 3D 0136. I have misread it.
5 A. I have it open.
6 Q. "Extraterritorial Schooling of Pupils from Bosnia-Herzegovina in
7 the Republic of Croatia." I have 67 documents, of course not all of them
8 are here now. Could you please look at page -- the next page, 571. That
9 is the graph that pertains to those schools.
10 A. I have it in front of me.
11 Q. According to the information that I have and that is contained
12 here, the Croatian government or, rather, the Ministry of Education
13 established 36 schools attached to their own that had additional training
14 in the Bosnian language. Do you know about that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Oh, you don't. Do you know that the Republic of Croatia, without
17 any major problems whatsoever, allowed enrollment in the regular schools
18 of the Republic of Croatia all refugees, including Bosniak Muslims?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, would you look at 572. 572.
21 A. I don't have any numbers of that kind.
22 Q. Just skip a page. 3D 26-0572. That's what the page number is.
23 A. I have it.
24 Q. That is the government of the Republic of Croatia. Mrs. Girardi
25 Jurkic is the signatory. Did you know that at the time she was the
1 Minister of Education of the Republic of Croatia?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Praljak's
4 microphone please be adjusted. Thank you. We cannot hear him.
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Please look at the signature.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, the interpreters have difficulties
8 hearing you and ask to adjust the microphone. Maybe you test if it is
9 good for them. If you speak, one, two, three, perhaps.
10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good
11 morning. Good morning to all.
12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Is it good with interpreters?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Thank you very much, Your
15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I hope you hear me now. Now
16 I'm going to speak a bit louder and then people will be able to hear me.
17 Q. It says here that the Republic of Croatia is paying for all the
18 education costs, teaching, teachers, just like for pupils from Croatia.
19 We have figures here as well. So in those school years, there were 32.000
20 pupils, refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina, out of which 25.000 in
21 elementary schools and almost 7.000 in secondary schools; and in
22 pre-school institutions, there were 2.800 children from the Republic of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Madam, were you aware of these figures?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Can we please go on now. Please look at the next
1 document, 574 is the page. Again, the government of the Republic of
2 Croatia, the Ministry of Education, Schools and Sport. Have you found the
4 A. No. 573 is what I have, and then after that 603.
5 Q. How is that possible? Please a have a look.
6 A. I found it.
7 Q. 574. We'll try to cut things short. Again, in paragraph 3, again
8 compulsory education for children of all age groups, appropriate curricula
9 in the Republic of Croatia. In the third paragraph it says:
10 "In agreement with the vice-president, Dr. Mate Granic, it's been
11 agreed that a preliminary list of expenses should be made related to the
12 cost of documentation of 70.000 children because these expenses cannot be
13 settled by means for the school system provided by the state budget." And
14 then it says here: "84 million Croatian dinars per month, whereas for the
15 manuals, an additional 116 million HRD should be provided."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I see that.
18 Q. Did you know that the Republic of Croatia or, rather, the Ministry
19 of Culture and Sport, that is to say, the government of Croatia, gave
20 textbooks free of charge to all students enrolled in schools of the
21 Republic of Croatia, regardless of whether they were refugees or not
22 refugees? Do you know about that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know that all the payments came from the budget or, rather,
25 from extra budgetary resources, and that all of this was paid for by the
1 Republic of Croatia? Do you know about that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let us go back to something else. Yesterday you said that you
4 gave --
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, Mr. Praljak. While we're at it, on
6 the next page, it also says that there will be a request for help from the
7 international community as well, so perhaps it's not everything that would
8 be paid by Croatia. Or how do I have to understand that?
9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Assistance was rendered by
10 the international community, no doubt about that. However, the subject
11 that we are dealing with in the time that is available for looking at the
12 finances allocated by the Republic of Croatia for different types of aid
13 and assistance, that would have yielded at least five or six or seven more
14 -- times more results in terms of the financial burden of the Republic of
15 Croatia than what we heard yesterday, the 800 million or whatever, rather,
16 1 billion dollars that was referred to. That merits a special debate.
17 However, for schooling there is no information that anything was received
18 because that was not considered to be the kind of form of humanitarian
19 assistance that food and medicine would fall under.
20 Q. Madam, can we say, therefore, that the educational system of the
21 Republic of Croatia, to the best your knowledge, fully, without any
22 discrimination whatsoever, with full intensity, organised and paid
23 irrespective of whether pupils came from Bosnia and Herzegovina, whether
24 they were Croats or Muslims or whoever, whether they were Croats from the
25 Republic of Croatia? Was there any discrimination whatsoever? There was
1 no discrimination. And do you have any example that would refute that?
2 A. I knew of some of examples. I do have some examples.
3 Q. Could you tell the Court whether it was one example, two examples,
4 where these examples took place? Did you contact Mr. Rebic or Girardi
5 Jurkic and tell them that the director of a school made a mistake
6 anywhere? Was there a name and surname? In what school? In what place?
8 A. I handed over all my documents, so I can't tell you off the top of
9 my head, so I can't quote a document or a date.
10 Q. Who did you hand over your documents over to?
11 A. Mrs. Bisera Turkovic.
12 Q. Do you remember how many examples you could have quoted there?
13 Because they are, after all, examples which would have stuck in your
15 A. Well, I never liked to rely on my memory, because I might have
16 gained the impression, the subjective impression, that there were a lot,
17 whereas it might not correspond to the facts. So that wouldn't be fair on
18 my part. I wouldn't be doing an honest job.
19 Q. Madam, we're looking for the truth here, so any fact that can
20 contribute to that I would find acceptable.
21 Now, according to your knowledge or the present documents that
22 we're looking at, were there a lot of exceptions or is that how Croatia
24 A. In the academic year of 1992 and 1993, I don't remember any such
25 problems existing. But as I can tell you, there were a lot of calls,
1 ringing up the embassy, asking that children be enrolled in regular
3 Q. Right. So we don't know what the quantity of this was.
4 Now, if we go on to the next document, which is on page 569, the
5 4th of February, 1993, that school year, you're talking about academic
6 year of 1992-1993, take a look at this document. It says, "We are sending
7 you the school curriculum ..." It's just the following document. Just go
8 on to the next page.
9 A. What did you say?
10 Q. I think I made a mistake. 595 is the document number.
11 A. Yes, I have found the document.
12 Q. And it says, "We are sending you the school curriculum according
13 to which the self-organised primary schools in Croatia, working for
14 refugees from the RBiH."
15 Do you know, madam -- or, rather, did you try and organise some
16 schools yourself or, rather, you embassy? Is that true, that you tried to
17 organise some schools yourself?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Right. No. According to my information, an attempt was made, but
20 the job was given up after three months, and a reduced curriculum from
21 1993, which is on page 597, says that -- this reduced curriculum says that
22 the Bosnian language will be taught, that that will be a subject, for five
23 lessons a week for class 1. Is that what it says at the top, as a
24 heading, "Reduced Curriculum," et cetera? And the number is 597 of the
25 page. Page 597.
1 A. On this page I can see that it says, "Subject: Bosnian Language,
2 Class 1."
3 Q. That's right. And then it goes on to say, "Five lessons per
4 week." Is that what it says?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At that time in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did an official language
7 called the Bosnian language exist, in 1993?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Right. You don't know. Well, not to belabour the point, I'm now
10 going to read out on the next page for class 2 -- or, rather, for class 3
11 the same things. "Subject: Bosnian Language, Class 3, five lessons a
12 week." Then class 5 has three lessons a week. Can you see all that?
13 A. Yes, on the following page. Yes, "Reduced Curriculum," et cetera.
14 Q. Now let's look at class 5. I'll go through that quickly. It
15 says, "Tone Seliskar." Do you agree that that would be a Slovene?
16 A. Well, I went to school a long time ago. I really can't say
17 whether he's a writer. He is a Slovenian, yes.
18 Q. Then we have Andersen's Tales, Hans Christian Andersen. Then we
19 have Branko Copic. Do you know that Branko Copic is a Serb writer, in
21 A. Possibly.
22 Q. Madam, he's a very well-known children's writer from
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serb by ethnicity, Branko Copic. Have you ever heard
24 of the next name, Musika Kapacic [phoen]? Then we --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Then we have another Muslim Bosniak writer, five or six lines from
2 the bottom. Have you heard of him?
3 A. In lines 7 and 8, I can't see it yet. But yes, I have heard of
5 Q. Let's move on to page 8. Three lessons a week. You see Izet
6 Sarajlic, a Bosniak poet. After Jure Kastelan, we come to these poets,
7 Ivan Slamukic [phoen], Jure Sarajlic. Izet Sarajlic, is he a Bosniak
8 Muslim poet?
9 A. I know he's a poet.
10 Q. Yes. Then below that, four or five lines down, we have Savfet-beg
11 Basagic. Have you heard of that poet, a Bosniak?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then we have five or six lines further on a selection from
14 Bosnian-Herzegovinian poetry. Then we have Copic again, Branko Copic.
15 Then we have Meso Selimovic, another Muslim Bosniak; and then Hasan Kikic
16 and Dervis Susic. Then we have Dizdarevic and so on and so forth. And
17 then we have the death of Hasanaginica, or, rather, Hasanaginica. So are
18 all these Bosniak Muslims, Hasan Kikic, Meso Selimovic, Dizdarevic?
19 A. I don't know that. But to the best of my knowledge I think that
20 all the names you've mentioned are Bosnian-Herzegovinian, of BH origin,
21 including Mr. Copic, to the best of my recollections, was a Bosnian.
22 Q. Well, I don't want to test you on your education, but can we see
23 from this that there was no national or ethnic discrimination in the
24 subjects taught in Croatian schools, the fact that the children were
25 Bosniak Muslims, from a curriculum like this? Is that obvious?
1 A. I apologise, but this is signed by Mr. Lejla -- Mrs. Lejla
2 Aksamija. She was a refugee. And it was only in cooperation with the
3 rest of the refugees that the refugees organised schools during this
4 period of time according to this curriculum that she sent out to the
6 Q. But did the educational ministry of Croatia implement this
7 curriculum that was compiled by a Bosniak lady? Do you know about that?
8 That in the schools in the Republic of Croatia, the curriculum devised and
9 written by your friend and collaborator, who was a Bosniak and provided
10 this curriculum, did the Croatian authorities okay this and have the
11 programme taught in the schools?
12 A. Well, I don't know that explicitly.
13 Q. How about implicitly? Do you know of the opposite stand?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Well, thank you, madam.
16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, I think it is only fair from the
17 Bench to draw your attention to the fact that this, of course, is a paper
18 with a programme. It does not prove that any of this was actually taught
19 in any school. I just want to draw your attention to this. Also, we have
20 had no translation, so it was rather difficult for us to follow the last
21 part of the interrogation. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Trechsel,
23 I said at the beginning on page 595 that this was a curriculum sent out,
24 and the curriculum was adopted. It was put forward and adopted. And on
25 596, page 596, it says that the ministry approved the programme.
1 Apart from that, Judge Trechsel, Your Honour, I don't have to
2 prove this. It's not up to me to prove it. I know about it. I was
3 included in it. I know for a fact that the programme was implemented and
4 that all children could enroll. I'm not going to speak about some
5 exceptions in a school where some principal or headmaster didn't want to,
6 et cetera.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You're absolutely right, that you don't have to
8 prove anything here, but now you have become a witness and that I think is
9 not what the cross-examination is meant.
10 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour.
11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I have not
12 become a witness. The witness herself dealt with refugees. The refugees
13 included children and those children went to Croatian schools. And not
14 dozens of children but 40.000 children in the pre-school institutions and
15 so on, as she ought to me.
16 I understand that the lady had a lot of work to do and there were
17 just six or seven people to do all of that job. And there were thousands
18 of refugees, so she was overloaded. But I've just brought in the
19 documents here and I'm asking the lady whether she knows. If Mrs. Krajsek
20 says she doesn't know, then well and good. But I asked her whether there
21 was any discrimination and she will tell me whether she knew about that or
22 not. I'm going to ask her.
23 Q. Did you know about that, madam, or not?
24 MR. SCOTT: Before that, I'm going --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott, please. Could the
1 speakers kindly be asked to slow down. Thank you.
2 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good morning.
3 Judge Trechsel, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, in the
4 last few minutes, we've had continuing examples of Mr. Praljak acting as a
5 witness and making absolute assertions as if they are true, as if they are
6 evidence. Now, of course, if the time comes and Mr. Praljak would like to
7 take the witness stand under oath and give evidence, that's his
8 prerogative. But it's not his prerogative to stand up and just simply
9 tell the Court facts. "I'm telling you this because I know it to be
10 true," and we've heard a number of instances of that in the last few
12 However, at the same time, the Prosecution is happy to receive
13 whatever information Mr. Praljak would like to provide to us and to the
14 Chamber, and collects that information on a regular basis so that at the
15 end of the case, of course, we can tell the Chamber what Mr. Praljak has
16 admitted and what he agrees to as to the facts in the case.
17 Having said that, Your Honour, could I just ask for
18 clarification. There was just an assertion by Mr. Praljak that one of the
19 documents we had looked to, other than Mr. Praljak himself, but that he
20 had put a document in evidence which confirms that this programme was in
21 fact adopted and put in place in the Croatian schools. I have to say I'm
22 having a very difficult time following the documents this morning the way
23 they're organised. Can I please ask and can Mr. Praljak please tell us
24 exactly which of the documents he's addressed this morning that he says
25 confirms that this programme -- the proposal by a Bosnian refugee, not the
1 Croatian government, but the proposal by a Bosnian woman refugee, which
2 document shows that that was, in fact, accepted and put in place in the
3 schools? If he could please point us to that document.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, can you please give
5 us this clarification regarding this particular document?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The programme for schools in
8 the Republic of Croatia existed. Now, in this document, on page 574, you
9 can see how much money was set aside, what those figures are. And in
10 document 595, quite obviously Mrs. Lejla was asked to devise an additional
11 programme for the Bosnian language. Now, in my file relating to
12 education, I have a total of 67 documents here.
13 Your Honours, it is quite impossible to get through all those 67
14 documents here with the witness. I would be happy if we were able to do
15 that, but obviously these proceedings are such that that is impossible.
16 So I put the document to the witness, I showed her the document that Ms.
17 Lejla sent out, her programme.
18 Q. Now, Witness, did you --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott, please.
20 MR. SCOTT: Interpreters, sorry.
21 Thank you. I just would like to thank Mr. Praljak for answering
22 the question that I had invited through the Chamber, and the record now
23 stands clarified. He has not pointed to any document showing that the
24 proposal was, in fact, accepted.
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Kovacic.
1 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think we're really
2 wasting time here. It's up to you to evaluate the documents. Mr. Praljak
3 quite clearly said that we can conclude that the Ministry of Education,
4 that is to say, the responsible ministry, asked for a curriculum from the
5 special or separate schools that organised themselves, because by law the
6 Ministry of Education, by law, had to approve the curricula for every
7 school, even foreign schools. We had schools, for example, for foreign
8 diplomats' children. So every teaching programme, whether it be in
9 France, in Croatia, in Bulgaria, an extraterritorial programme must be
10 approved by the Ministry of Education of the host country.
11 Now, this page on the document 595 was sent out, the document by
12 Mrs. Lejla, it was sent out to the government of the Republic of Croatia,
13 the Ministry for Culture and Education. So the ministry took note of
14 this. It was sent to the ministry. It is reasonable to conclude that the
15 ministry asked for this programme; otherwise, it would be illogical.
16 Of course, in the Defence case we can bring in an official from
17 the Ministry of Culture and Education who will tell you, Yes, we received
18 it; we didn't act adversely; we approved it or not or we did such and
19 such. We can bring in a witness to that effect. But this is quite a
20 logical sequence of events, what we're discussing here now.
21 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me.
22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: The Chamber will be absolutely able to evaluate
23 documentation for what it is worth, and I think Mr. Praljak should
24 continue now.
25 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, but to respond.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I was
3 saying. It is up to the Chamber, and the Prosecution wishes to launch an
4 argument. That's precisely what I said. It's up to the Trial Chamber to
5 decide what weight to give to the document, in view of the fact that it
6 was, indeed, sent to the Ministry of Culture and Education and in view of
7 the standards in every civilised country in this area.
8 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, sorry, but I am not launching into
9 an argument. I'm making an objection, which is my duty and responsibility
10 to do when I think it appropriate. But with respect to my good friend
11 Mr. Kovacic, not only Mr. Praljak is now acting as a witness but now
12 Mr. Kovacic is acting as a witness, explaining the Croatian school system
13 and making assertions about what it did or did not do. And if we could
14 just please -- I fully agree with Judge Trechsel. If we could just please
15 put questions to the witness and ask her instead of making assertions,
16 Mr. Praljak simply making assertions, and put questions to the witness, we
17 could move much more efficiently.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, if I may briefly assist the Trial
19 Chamber. The objection that you raised, Judge Trechsel, or the
20 observation that you made I think caused some confusion only because of
21 the way, perhaps, it was stated. Obviously, it was an observation that we
22 all, as lawyers, are mindful of, and that is when we pose a question,
23 especially on cross-examination, to a witness because it appears as if we,
24 the lawyers, are testifying through the question, that it's assumed that
25 we have a good-faith basis for putting forward the proposition that's in
1 the question itself.
2 I think what you were trying to alert to Mr. Praljak was that he
3 should have a good-faith basis for the assertions that he's making. And
4 what I heard from Mr. Kovacic is that in due time they will demonstrate
5 that everything that Mr. Praljak is saying, they have a good-faith basis.
6 But cross-examination, the art of it, the science of it, is where the
7 lawyer is, in essence, providing the answer and the witness usually saying
8 yes or no and then maybe explaining, but there is a good-faith basis.
9 So when Mr. Scott objected, Mr. Kovacic demonstrated the
10 good-faith basis that they have. At some point, of course, they're going
11 to have to prove it, they're going to have to provide some proof. And if
12 they don't provide any proof, then obviously that question has no value at
13 all and you will consider that in your ultimate evaluation of the
14 evidence. That's how I understand the process.
15 So I understood exactly what you were trying to convey, which was
16 merely a cautionary instruction to Mr. Praljak that anything that he puts
17 to the witness, it has to have a good-faith basis. I think that was the
19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I am sure, Mr. Karnavas, that you understood what
20 I was aiming at, and I'm also sure that when you said, They have to prove
21 it, you were looking at Mr. Praljak but you were thinking of the
22 Prosecutor, because the Defence does not have to prove anything.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: They don't have to prove any -- they don't have to
24 prove any assertions that they're making. You can choose not to -- not to
25 accept them. But if, for instance, there was an objection early on, and I
1 believe -- I believe it was you, Judge Trechsel, with respect to one --
2 one remark that -- or one question that was posed by Mr. Praljak, if we
3 look at paragraph 24 of the statement, the statement that you have
4 admitted. You have admitted. You've accepted. It says here that Croatia
5 never financed or co-financed -- co-financed these costs which can be
6 proved through documentation. Now Mr. Praljak is proving the opposite and
7 he gets cautioned because it says here they co-financed. He never said
8 that they exclusively financed, so he's doing exactly what any good lawyer
9 would be doing. So I don't see what the problem is.
10 And the Prosecutor can object --
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Could we then go on, Mr. Karnavas. If you don't
12 see where the problem is, I think you shouldn't go on speaking.
13 Mr. Praljak, please.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Mr. Praljak, you may proceed, but as the Presiding Judge here, I'd
16 like to say something now.
17 The Defence is entitled to show a number of documents to the
18 witness. That's what the Defence is currently doing. These documents, on
19 the face of it, seem official, because if we look at document 595, we see
20 that there is a stamp, and this document looks like an administrative
21 document produced by the Ministry for Culture and Education. In this
22 document, we see that there is a mention of various programmes, various
23 curricula. Bosnian authors are to be studied as part of this curricula.
24 That is what we read here. There is also reference made to foreign
25 authors, and Franck and Romeo and Juliet is also mentioned here. So here
1 we have a very official looking curriculum.
2 The Defence then asks the witness whether she knows that the
3 170.000 children coming from Bosnia-Herzegovina were taught according to
4 this curriculum. The witness answered no. Now, if the Prosecution
5 decides to challenge this, they can do it as part of the re-examination.
6 They can produce documents challenging this.
7 So please proceed, Mr. Praljak.
8 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I have to correct the record. It is not
9 up to me to challenge evidence that has not been admitted, and counsel --
10 Mr. Praljak asserting something is not evidence, nor is there any
11 foundation for the documentation. So it is not for me to prove.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please don't play on words,
13 Mr. Scott. Mr. Praljak will request the admission of these documents, and
14 if you challenge these documents, you will be entitled to do it, because
15 we should not forget that this is part and parcel of your demonstration
16 about the JCE. So the Defence is perfectly entitled to challenge your
17 case and it's trying to do it through these documents.
18 Mr. Praljak, you may proceed.
19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
20 Q. Madam, you, as a person who was officially dealing with refugees,
21 you or any one of the officials working with you, did you check the
22 authenticity and truthfulness of what we read out just now?
23 A. Mr. Praljak, I'm so confused now. Are we talking about the
24 curriculum in the regular schools of the Republic of Croatia or about the
25 curriculum for extraterritorial schools of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the
1 Republic of Croatia?
2 Q. Madam, let's take things one at a time.
3 A. Fine.
4 Q. Apart from isolated examples, as you had put it, can you indicate
5 any kind of discriminatory attitude taken by the Ministry of Education of
6 the Republic of Croatia towards refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina in
7 relation to Croatian children, speaking in global terms, in general terms,
8 Croatian children from Croatia?
9 A. Sorry, I do beg your pardon. Could you repeat your question. I'm
10 not too --
11 Q. Madam, did you notice that the Croatian government, the Croatian
12 state, the Croatian authorities, were treating refugees from Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina differently, regardless of their ethnic background, in
14 relation to the children born in the territory of Croatia?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you give us examples?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Tell us where and when.
19 A. In 1994, that is to say, the school year of 1993-1994, the
20 refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Republic of Croatia had an
21 insurmountable problem in terms of enrolling in the regular schools of the
22 Republic of Croatia because they could not bring in the documents that
23 were required by law.
24 Q. What documentation? Can you tell the Honourable Trial Chamber.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Tell us what that is.
2 A. Inter alia birth certificate.
3 Q. Let's resolve the question of birth certificate, madam. How many
4 people in Croatia had birth certificates from churches? How many
5 communists were there who never christened their children in churches?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Oh, come on, you don't know? Were there 300 communists in the
8 Republic of Croatia?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Were there 300.000 communists in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. When you say a christening birth certificate, does that mean that
13 that is simply someone who has a document that he was born somewhere?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. So what do you mean when you say "birth certificate," that
16 somebody was christened in a church?
17 A. No. They were given interpretation in schools, what it meant,
18 "birth certificate," a christening birth certificate.
19 Q. So what do you mean by that?
20 A. I don't know. They simply didn't have that document.
21 Q. Look, I'm going to show you another document later where it says
22 this. But, first of all, in the Republic of Croatia, if you look at all
23 towns from Bosnia-Herzegovina, weren't clubs, local clubs of Doboze,
24 Camaglia, et cetera, founded?
25 A. I knew that different clubs were established.
1 Q. These clubs, did the state, that is to say, the Republic of
2 Croatia, recognise these clubs as being a replacement for the municipal
3 authorities for the municipalities from where they were expelled?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Oh, you don't know. But I'm going to show you a document later
6 on. Now I'm going to ask you the following: You said in your statement
7 that in order to have your refugee papers extended, you had to go to the
8 municipality where you had fled from, so on and so forth. I'm going to
9 show you another Rebic document stating that it was sufficient to go to
10 the club that was established by the refugees and to give a certificate
11 that this person was a refugee. Did you know about that?
12 A. No. Not a single refugee came to see me with that kind of
13 document, that kind of document from Adalbert Rebic.
14 Q. All right. You don't know, and what can I do about that. All
15 right. Let's move on.
16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D 01033. No, sorry, I have
17 misspoken. 3D 01034. 01034.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it.
19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
20 Q. This says, "Care for wounded and ill members of the army of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina and civilians in Croatian hospitals from 1992 to 1995."
22 You see in the binders prepared for this trial there are 1.232 documents
23 that pertain to this, and of course we can't go through all of that, but I
24 would like to ask you the following: Please open page 441. We have
25 already put this to the Honourable Trial Chamber.
1 A. I have the page.
2 Q. That 3.991 Bosniak Muslims, for the most part wounded persons,
3 seriously ill persons, through the HZ HB in 1993 and partly in 1994 were
4 treated in the KBC Split hospital at three different localities. Do you
5 know about that?
6 A. I know that this is a correct piece of information, but I cannot
7 discuss the matter. I know that many of them were treated, yes.
8 Q. Can you tell me the following: Did you visit wounded persons in
10 A. In Split on one occasion and in Toplice. I cannot remember
11 exactly -- well, yes.
12 Q. Toplice near Zagreb?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell me the following: To the best of your knowledge, you, from
15 the embassy, or any other authority of the Republic of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina, did you ever pay anything for medical treatment?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you know that in addition to hospitalisation, that is to say,
19 treatment in hospitals of serious cases, that there were general rights
20 among the refugees to be treated in medical institutions of the Republic
21 of Croatia?
22 A. Are you referring to primary health care?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I knew of primary health care, that it was accessible to refugees.
25 Q. Equally, like to all other citizens of the Republic of Croatia; is
1 that correct?
2 A. It was accessible to refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina without any
3 additional comments.
4 Q. Fine. That will do. Tell me, what about basic dental health
5 care, regardless of prosthetics and so on?
6 A. If it's part of primary care, I assume that that was accessible,
8 Q. Thank you. Would you now please open page 443.
9 A. In the same document?
10 Q. The same document.
11 A. Just a moment. I have the document.
12 Q. Please take a look. Dr. Tamin Akram is seeking the following, and
13 he was issued medicaments, according to a specification, by Ms. Zupanovic,
14 who was a head nurse for medicaments, and this was done at the request
15 primarily of doctors who were Bosniak Muslims, medicines were issued. Do
16 you know who Dr. Tamin Akram is?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you hear of Mrs. Zupanovic, who was a legend down there in
19 terms of receiving and treating the wounded and so on?
20 A. The name rings a bell, but -- well, it rings a bell.
21 Q. Now, let's look at page 444.
22 A. I have it.
23 Q. It says, "At the request of the children's embassy from Sarajevo,
24 according to Dr. Hozo's recommendations and approval by MS Dr. G. Dodik
25 for the needs of DZ Breza." Do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let's move on to the next document. For the needs of Banovic
3 municipality, at the request of Merhamet, again medicines being provided.
4 Do you see that?
5 A. I see the document.
6 Q. Thank you. Again, do you know Zupanovic and do you know who
7 Dragica Sabatos is, who took these things down there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now look at document 453.
10 A. Page 453?
11 Q. Yes, page 453. Have you found it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Dr. Sulejman Sulic, is he a Bosnian Muslim, judging by his name?
14 A. Judging by his name, he can be a Muslim, he can being a Bosniak,
15 he can be a Bosniak Muslim, I don't know what.
16 Q. Again, he's looking for medicaments. Can you see is that? It's
17 the same document.
18 A. Do you want me to read the document? Should I read it?
19 Q. No, there is no need. These are documents --
20 A. I see the document.
21 Q. Now let us look at page 477.
22 A. I have it.
23 Q. The number of wounded persons and civilians, mostly Muslims
24 according to ethnicity, in some hospitals of the Republic of Croatia.
25 Split Firule; Split Krizine; Split Toplice, Zagreb; 2.982. Karlovac,
1 Slavonski Brod, 2.730; Vinkovci. Of course this does not include all the
2 hospitals because I was collecting data on a private basis. But at any
3 rate the total is 10.623.
4 Can you confirm or challenge the assertion that the majority of
5 these 10.000 or so were Bosniak Muslims who were treated in the mentioned
6 hospital here?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. You never kept any records or anything?
9 A. No, I didn't work on that. This was not my line of work.
10 Q. Did anyone keep records of this kind in your embassy?
11 A. We had a medical department that dealt with this particular
12 subject matter.
13 Q. Further on, do you know from the money that you received - and we
14 will see how you did get your money - did you participate in any way in
15 the medical treatment of all these persons of Bosnian Muslim ethnicity?
16 A. I can tell you that I just know about part of the financial
17 resources that I personally gave to wounded persons when I visited them.
18 Q. The wounded but not hospitals.
19 A. Well, no, no, I wasn't really involved in that. It wasn't my line
20 of work.
21 Q. So we will agree -- but, anyway, this is my question: It's not
22 only you from the embassy but also other people from the embassy, and
23 especially people who were working on behalf of the Islamic Republic of
24 Iran in Zagreb, did you take money to Bosniak Muslims in hospitals and did
25 you give them money, money into their hands?
1 A. I only know about myself.
2 Q. So you did that, too?
3 A. Well, not the way that you are interpreting that.
4 Q. At any rate you gave them money, didn't you?
5 A. Yes, but I gave money to wounded Croats who were lying in hospital
6 beds right next to them.
7 Q. All right. I'm not saying anything --
8 A. And they also signed --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please
10 be asked to slow down.
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's exactly what I wanted to say. You are
12 overlapping, you're speaking too fast, and the interpreters cannot follow
13 so it doesn't reach the Chamber. So please do not speak too quickly. And
14 after finishing, after the other has finished, give a pause for the
15 interpreters to translate. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour,
17 Judge Trechsel. What is killing me is the sight of that clock over there
18 and that is the explanation for this bit of nervousness on my part.
19 Q. Could you please look at page 489.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recognise Mr. Izetbegovic's signature?
22 A. It looks like his signature.
23 Q. So look at this document. Do you know that Mr. Ejub Ganic had a
24 traffic accident and that he was treated in Croatia at the clinical
25 hospital in Split?
1 A. I know that from the Croatian media.
2 Q. Mr. Izetbegovic is thanking everyone there and giving his --
3 paying his respects and expressing his gratitude and saying that this
4 should not be forgotten.
5 A. I cannot read this document. It is illegible and my spectacles do
6 not match this font.
7 Q. All right. I am going to read it.
8 "As many times so far, your expertise in which you are entirely
9 devoted to your occupation of physician resulted when we needed it the
10 most. This shall never be forgotten here."
11 "This will not be forgotten here." Yes.
12 You knew of the event, did you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell me, please, did you know Mrs. Izetbegovic throughout the war
15 was in Croatia?
16 A. No.
17 Q. As a refugee. You didn't know that?
18 A. You mean the wife of Mr. Izetbegovic?
19 Q. Yes. You didn't know that. Very well.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Let's move on from hospitals
21 and take a look at document 3D 01029. It's at the beginning, the second.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Praljak give the page number as well,
23 please, thank you, because we don't have the document numbered.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have found it.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Now, if you look at page 82.
2 A. I found it.
3 Q. Do you know that on the territory of the Republic of Croatia
4 during the war that we're discussing here, 234 humanitarian organisations
5 were registered?
6 A. I can't tell you the exact number. That there were a lot of them,
7 that I do know.
8 Q. Well, if you look at pages 87 onwards, 87 and 88, then for each of
9 these organisations you will find their names, the telephone numbers, fax
10 numbers, addresses, and so on. But anyway, you said you knew that there
11 were a lot of them.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were there quite a number from the Islamic countries, from the
14 Islamic world?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, could you take a look at page 121, please. Page 121.
17 A. I'm afraid I can't find that number.
18 Q. It is page 121 of that same document or binder, and just turn the
19 pages until you get to page 121. Have you found it?
20 A. Just a moment, please. I'm afraid I can't seem to find it.
21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Madam, it's two pages in front of
22 that last document.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
24 Q. If you turn back two pages.
25 MR. KOVACIC: If the usher could assist, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you give me the page number
2 again, please.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Page 121.
4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Two pages before the next
5 yellow sticker, 1030.
6 THE WITNESS: But that's not the same, that page number.
7 MR. KOVACIC: Mr. Usher.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, maybe you don't
9 have enough time, but what would be good is to give us the page number in
11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 3D 260121.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The numbers are different here. I
13 have the document but not with that number. I think I've found the
14 document you wish me to look at.
15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Yes. It's a request to the Main Staff of the HVO dated the 9th of
17 June, 1993. The BH army, Mr. Siber. Have you heard of him?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And he is requesting that the wounded from Tuzla and Split be
20 taken in. Did you know that there were regular helicopter flights to
21 transport the wounded from Tuzla and other parts of BH to Zagreb
23 A. I didn't know whether they were regular flights. I knew of some
24 flights, and I was present on one occasion when the wounded, a group of
25 wounded, arrived from Tuzla to Split.
1 Q. Thank you. Now turn to page 113 next, please, 113.
2 A. Is that before this document?
3 Q. Yes. 3D 26-113.
4 A. I've found the page.
5 Q. It is the 19th of April, 1994, signed by Ms. Bisera Turkovic; is
6 that right?
7 A. 19th of April, yes. It says, "For Bisera Turkovic."
8 Q. She says, "Once again, we would like to express our gratitude," et
9 cetera, et cetera, and then she says information about the
10 following: "Bosnia and Herzegovinian citizens who, with the help of the
11 UNHCR, arriving at the border of the Republic of Croatia, with the aim of
12 going on to third countries."
13 This talks about the fact that the UNHCR was the institution which
14 was the main organiser among the Muslims primarily but also Croatian
15 refugees from BH in transporting these people to third countries. Did you
16 know about that?
17 A. I didn't know that it was the principal organisation, but I did
18 know that it helped those who wanted to leave for third countries. That I
19 do know.
20 Q. But Ms. Bisera Turkovic says, "We appreciate and accept the
21 offered cooperation between the Office for Expelled Persons and Refugees
22 and the Embassy by which the control of work organisations would be
23 introduced dealing with forwarding civilians from Bosnia-Herzegovina." Is
24 that what it says there?
25 A. Yes, it says what you've just read out.
1 Q. And at the bottom it says, "We're sending you a copy of the letter
2 sent to the UNHCR by way of information about certain UNHCR activities on
3 the territory of the Republic of Croatia," and we'll go back to that
4 document in just a moment. Is that what it says there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So you know that the UNHCR dealt with matters of this kind, but
7 you don't know what its organisational structure was; is that what you're
9 A. Yes. I don't know the volume, how much work of this kind it
10 engaged in.
11 Q. In view of the large number of institutions dealing with
12 humanitarian aid, do you happen to know that there were all sorts there,
13 if I can put it that way, all sorts of things were going on, various
14 clandestine trafficking. There was mirky business, there were spies,
15 there was black marketeering, et cetera. Do you agree with me there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you agree with me when I say that this introduced -- or,
18 rather, had very serious consequences and was detrimental to the
19 organisations that worked well, did good work; that there were a lot of
20 problems because it cast a shadow on all of them?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you know that some of these organisations wanted to
23 introduce large quantities of medicines with a shelf-life date that had
24 already expired and they wanted to bring them into both BH and Croatia.
25 Now look at page 119, please.
1 A. I don't know where to look for these numbers that you're quoting.
2 Q. It's straight out of the document we've just been discussing.
3 A. Yes, I've found it. Thank you.
4 Q. Now, the signatory there is Mr. Sefko Omerbasic on behalf of the
5 Mesihat organisation; and on behalf of Merhamet, Mr. Aganovic; and Mrs.
6 Andzelita Jokic on behalf of the Croatian Caritas organisation. Now, do
7 you know Mr. Omerbasic and Dr. Aganovic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In that proclamation dated the 16th of September -- yes, I'm being
10 asked to slow down. I'll do my best. Yes, the 16th of September, 1993,
11 they say that they want publicly to state that the Croatian Caritas and
12 Merhamet and Mesihat are cooperating in various ways, despite those who
13 keep denying the existence of this cooperation.
14 Now, do you know who it was who endeavoured to introduce this rift
15 between the organisations and among the organisations, this discord
16 between the Caritas, Merhamet and Mesihat? Do you know anything about
18 A. No.
19 Q. At the end it says, "We would like to reiterate our serious
20 concern in view of this which makes life more difficult with these
21 secret" -- it says "secret things that make this Holocaust difficult,
22 which includes the innocent. Once again, we sincerely invite all those
23 whom this may concern to consider the detrimental consequences of such
24 actions." Is that what it says?
25 A. Yes, that's what it says.
1 Q. Now, Dr. Sefko Omerbasic and Dr. Izet Aganovic, were they
2 prominent Muslims in Croatia, intellectuals and so on?
3 A. Both of them were highly respected, to the best of my knowledge.
4 Q. Right. Now, can you tell Their Honours what the reason would be
5 for their writing this proclamation and what secret operations or secret
6 actions to introduce unrest and to introduce black marketeering and so on
7 that they were referring to?
8 A. I really couldn't say, no.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask you to take a look at another
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have to intervene, I apologise,
13 because quite obviously because of the overlapping and speed, an important
14 statement made by the witness was not recorded. The witness clearly
15 confirmed that Dr. Sefko Omerbasic and Dr. Aganovic were indeed prominent,
16 I think she said renowned, members of the Muslim religious community in
17 Zagreb. We don't have that in the record, quite obviously because the
18 speakers were overlapping.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, that's not what I said.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Well, will the witness then confirm
21 her answer and tell us what she said when asked about the stature of these
22 two individuals.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I know that both of these two
24 individuals were highly respected in the Republic of Croatia.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
1 Q. That's sufficient. But they were Muslims, were they not?
2 A. That I do not know.
3 Q. All right. Now let's look at document 3D 01045. "45" are the
4 last two digits, madam.
5 Before we move on, let me ask you this: Do you know that Sefko
6 Omerbasic was the number one man of the Islamic Community of the Republic
7 of Herzegovina? Did you know about that?
8 A. Yes. Sir, I assume that he was of the Islamic faith. I don't
9 know. I can't say. Now, I'm not an expert in Muslim affairs, and it
10 seems that you are not either.
11 Q. Well, we can clarify that in due course, but let's go on to the
12 next document, which is 3D 01045.
13 A. What did you say?
14 Q. I said 3D 010145.
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Madam, it is the fifth document from
16 the bottom, from the end.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I've found the document.
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Take a look at the document. It says that it is a report on the
20 activities of the International Conference on the Protection of Human
21 Rights in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the conference -- I'm going to go
22 through this very quickly and you just tell me if what I'm saying is
23 correct and you'll give your comments. At the end it says that the
24 conference, at the invitation of the principal imam of the Zagreb mosque,
25 Dr. Mustafa Ceric, held in Zagreb between the 18th and 19th of October,
1 1992, in order to inform the world of the war sufferings, especially of
2 the Muslim population, it says.
3 Follow the document, please. And then it says that the conference
4 decided to establish an Executive Board, and once again the task was to
5 coordinate the political and humanitarian aid to the Muslims of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina, as well as to work on spreading the truth about the crimes
7 committed against the Muslim people.
8 And then at the bottom we see the names of the people who
9 attended. I don't need to read all the names. Well, it says Muhamed
10 Ghazali, Egypt. So we have Egypt, Qatar, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan,
11 et cetera, et cetera. Mustafa Pricanic, Bosnia-Herzegovina; Mustafa
12 Ceric, Bosnia-Herzegovina; and al-Fatih Husanain from the Sudan.
13 Now, on the following page, madam, it says that the meeting made
14 the following decisions, et cetera, et cetera, and it says that Seikh
15 Muhamed Ghazali should speak about the importance of the Muslim world.
16 They were getting ready for a tour to establish a fund for the assistance
17 -- for assistance to Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the sum a billion US
18 dollars. $1 billion US is the figure quoted.
19 And then in continuation, it once again says that the Bosnian
20 Muslims should be helped in all respects, and then we have a series of
21 receptions that took place. That's on page 3. King al-Fatih Husanain,
22 and then it says the importance of Bosnian Muslims for the Islamic world
23 and the responsibility of all the Muslims in the world to help them, to
24 render assistance. And then towards the end of that paragraph, in order
25 to stop the persecution and killing of the Bosnian Muslims. And then it
1 says that Salim Sabic asked that Saudi Arabia take part with a donation,
2 initial donation, of $400 million US.
3 Now, if you look at the very end, you will see the signature of
4 the secretary in Jeddah, in 1992, Dr. Al-Fatih Husanain, on the 19th of
5 October, and Dr. Mustafa Ceric. Do you know about Dr. Mustafa Ceric?
6 Have you heard of him?
7 A. Yes, I know Dr. Mustafa Ceric. I can't, of course, confirm that
8 they are the original signatures, but I can see that there are signatures
9 on that document.
10 Q. Right. Thank you. Now take a look at the next document, which is
11 3D 01046.
12 A. I have the document.
13 Q. And in that document -- first of all, for the record, I'd just
14 like to state that I have two binders full of documents from the Austrian
15 and German police that conducted an investigation into the bank accounts
16 in Vienna and Munich where this money was paid into, and Ms. Senka Nozica
17 yesterday showed us something along those lines, in something that
18 appeared in the paper Slobodna Bosna published in Sarajevo about just how
19 much money was deposited into these private accounts and who controlled
20 the accounts.
21 We'll go through the document, but let me just ask you, madam, do
22 you know about the existence of these organisations in Austria and
23 Germany, where this money was siphoned into, the money given by the
24 Islamic countries to the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
25 A. Can you be more specific in your question, in formulating your
2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me, we have had a long speech on the
3 previous document, and the only question asked was whether the witness
4 knows about Dr. Mustafa Ceric. I think we should also know -- Witness,
5 did you know about this conference that was held in Jeddah?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Have you ever seen this or any other report on
8 this conference?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this period, no. After the war,
10 well, the media, the press, they published some things and I saw that.
11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Madam, the media that you saw in Sarajevo, the papers you read,
14 the newspapers, didn't they refer to several billion dollars that were
15 received by way of assistance to the Muslim people from these states, from
16 this conference that I read this document about?
17 A. It is what the newspapers wrote after the war. That's the period
18 that we're talking about.
19 Q. Well, after the war.
20 A. Well, that's when I found out. That's why I'm asking you to be
22 Q. So you learned from the media published in Bosnia-Herzegovina
23 after the war that there were more and more revelations - now, whether all
24 this is true or not, that's a different question - that several billion
25 was received in these accounts.
1 A. Well, that's what I read.
2 Q. Okay. So let's look at document 3D 01046.
3 A. I have the document.
4 Q. It says here that at the President Hotel in Geneva, a meeting was
5 held that was attended by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, Ejub Ganic, Haris
6 Silajdzic and al-Fatih Husanain, the director of the TWRA organisation.
7 Have you ever heard of this organisation and also the aid that it provided
8 to the Muslims?
9 A. I heard of it.
10 Q. And they made a decision that two other members should be
11 included, Irfan Ljevakovic and Djordjevic Dervis, and that they were
12 establishing a bank. Did you know that a bank was being established?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right.
15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a
16 document that I received in two binders, and that's what the German police
17 was dealing with and got this from Mr. Pavlovic. Another question.
18 Q. Well, yesterday, we saw how this money perhaps got into Zagreb.
19 In terms of this organisation, the people that belonged to this
20 organisation, did you ever get money in your own hands to distribute this
21 money to refugees and other people?
22 A. I did not and people from the BH embassy did not.
23 Q. Do you know whether any of this money was ever received by the
24 Croatian people?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Please look at the next document, 3D 01048.
2 A. I have it.
3 Q. My question is: As for the ports that assistance to
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina came to, was one of them Ploce?
5 A. It was supposed to be. I guess it was. I don't know.
6 Q. Does my question mean anything to you if I ask you whether more
7 than 600 million tonnes of freight were transported from that harbour to
9 A. I don't know about that.
10 Q. Look at this. This arrived from Saudi Arabia. We'll skip the
11 figures, but I'm telling you the following: They say, rather, "Donations
12 to Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
13 A. I don't see where it is that you're reading in from.
14 Q. On the left, under the Arab line, the second paragraph. It
15 says --
16 A. It doesn't matter. I don't have to confirm that I see what you
17 are reading out. I really cannot find it.
18 Q. Madam, this little bit up here in the upper left-hand corner.
19 Nobody's asking you to read the Arabic writing because nobody here can
20 read Arabic.
21 A. Where is it you're reading this from?
22 Q. Well, yes, yes.
23 A. Now I see what's written there. Yes. Shipment --
24 Q. It says that it is donations to Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Can you see it now?
1 A. I see what's written here.
2 Q. Fine. Do you know --
3 A. Sorry, I don't see Ploce.
4 Q. Ploce, Croatia, underneath. Can't you see it, Ploce, Croatia?
5 A. It doesn't say so in the same paragraph. Well, probably it does,
6 but it's not important whether I see it or not.
7 Q. All right. Do you know that the assistance that was received,
8 say, from Saudi Arabia -- we don't have time to go into this now, but I
9 would show you a film where, which is only natural, the holy Koran is
10 being distributed, many copies, and that this aid was given only to
12 A. I really don't know.
13 Q. Then we are going to skip this. If you don't know about this then
14 there is no reason for us to deal with this. Concerning the harbour of
15 Ploce, there's lots of documents.
16 What about Rijeka, Split, other harbours in Croatia? Did they
17 receive aid from Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the best of your knowledge?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. You don't know. All right.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Now, how much time have we
21 got left? Five minutes now. Four.
22 Q. Now let us just clarify some small details that are nevertheless
23 important for me, so let's deal with that in these four minutes. However,
24 it's important to me. Do you know this big group of refugees that came
25 from Gorazde to the mosque in Zagreb at one point in time?
1 A. I know that an enormous number of refugees came to the mosque, in
2 front of the mosque. As for the people from Gorazde, I can't remember
3 them specifically, but I remember lots and lots of people in front of
5 Q. Was the mosque a central focal point from where refugees were
6 distributed in various centres?
7 A. I don't know. For me primarily it was the focal point, the centre
8 where refugees were left, refugees who were driven to the Republic of
10 Q. But then they were taken to places where they resided.
11 A. Yes, from there.
12 Q. Do you know of one detail, for instance? Do you know the name of
13 Dr. Juraj Njavro?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know, for example, that when a big group of people from
16 Gorazde came, President Tudjman asked Juraj Njavro, a refugee from
17 Vukovar, to go and talk to these people, to help them in the situation
18 that they were in? Do you know of this detail?
19 A. I personally don't know about that, but I am not surprised. I
20 believe that that is the case.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could Mr. Praljak please
22 speak into the microphone.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you know that in Zagreb only there were only 16 centres for
1 A. I don't know the exact number, but there were many refugee
2 centres; that I do know.
3 Q. Did many Croatian citizens give their houses, especially their
4 weekend cottages where they did not live, to refugees for their use?
5 A. Yes, I know about that.
6 Q. Thousands and thousands of such cases?
7 A. My experience is that it is very many. I don't know exactly how
9 Q. How about a fundamental question now that we're dealing with
10 refugees? For instance, when 500.000 refugees come from
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina to Croatia, do you agree that at one point there were
12 500.000 refugees?
13 A. I believe that that was possible.
14 Q. Does these -- along with these refugees, don't thieves come in,
15 criminals, whores, whatever a person can find in a group of 500.000
17 A. To my mind, it is only logical to assume that this kind of a
18 sample includes representatives of all kinds.
19 Q. Yes, logical. Can you assume that they caused a great deal of
21 A. I can assume all sorts of things.
22 Q. You were involved in marketing propaganda?
23 A. Not propaganda. Marketing, yes.
24 Q. Do you know who Dr. Tanja Kesic is? This is an intimate question.
25 A. The name sounds familiar, but I obviously don't know her very
2 Q. She was at your university when you got your diploma.
3 A. Well, not at the department that I was at.
4 Q. There are studies of psychology there, that department, I'm sure
5 of that. Among these refugees, among this refugee population who did not
6 have much information about what was going on back home, how many stories
7 were bandied about, terrible stories? Imagine --
8 A. I cannot say exactly what was going on, but it is only logical to
9 assume that there was a lot of imagination involved, too.
10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. We
11 can break off at this point. Thank you, madam, and we will continue.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I've counted. Mr. Praljak,
13 you've already spent one hour, so theoretically you have no time left.
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have half an
15 hour from the attorney of Mr. Berko Pusic and 20 minutes from Ms. Senka
16 Nozica. Oh, sorry, Vesna Alaburic. Well, anyway, please. So I have
17 about 50 minutes or so left to go through some important matters.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will have a 20-minute break.
19 Thank you.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to
23 proceed with the cross-examination, but before giving the floor to
24 Mr. Praljak, let me make one comment on behalf of the Chamber.
25 We'd like to ask the witness and Mr. Praljak to speak much
1 slower. I told you a few weeks ago that the translation services told us
2 that we produce in this trial more than 20 per cent of transcript pages
3 than the other trials because everybody is speaking extremely fast - 20
4 per cent more pages of transcript than the other trials. But in this
5 case, with Mr. Praljak asking questions and the witness answering these
6 questions, the number of words spoken is so huge that the interpreters and
7 the court reporter can't follow. I was told that you can take a maximum
8 of 240 per minute, and you are currently speaking at a rate of 300 words a
9 minute. So please try to slow down. Think of those assisting us. I,
10 myself, I'm able to follow you, of course, but think of the translators.
11 Think of the court reporter. Please try to slow down.
12 My fellow Judge wants to take the floor.
13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Before Mr. Praljak resumes, I'd
14 like to have one point of clarification.
15 I'm looking at the documents you've given us, Mr. Praljak, and I
16 look at document 3D 01046. 3D 01046. This is related to a meeting that
17 took place on the 14th of September, 1993, at the President Hotel in
18 Geneva. Where does this document come from? I'm asking the question
19 because I can see here at the bottom the name of Pavlovic. And apparently
20 the document was generated in Munich in 1995, on the 7th of December,
21 1995, but I do not see any reference number, any stamps. So I'd like to
22 know where this document comes from.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in this
24 terrible struggle to get documents in order to shed as much light as
25 possible on this entire case, I managed to obtain two binders of the
1 investigation conducted by the Austrian and German federal police about
2 money-laundering through the organisation mentioned in the document.
3 Pavlovic is the translator of these documents. I have these two binders
4 of documents from the Austrian and German police, but I think that this
5 information comes from the Prosecution as well, because this did come up
6 in a particular case.
7 Of course, I'm going to make this available to the Court through a
8 witness who is going to be better versed in the matter, regardless of
9 whether this witness will be called by the Prosecution or the Defence.
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Madam, we're going to continue. Thank you for your answers so
14 far. Just two more brief questions.
15 In your department you did not have any employed psychologists; is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Tell me, throughout the time while you dealt with this subject
19 matter, do you know that there was a single murder, rape, serious crime
20 among the refugee population? Let us not go into petty crime. But do you
21 know about serious crimes committed within the refugee population from
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Croatia?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you very much. Let us now look at another document that I
25 still owe you. P 01062. This is a Prosecution document. The page is
1 0328-7247 -- 7207.
2 A. I don't have that document.
3 Q. In the Prosecutor's bundle of documents, could someone just open
4 that document? 10062. Have you found the document?
5 A. I have the document.
6 Q. Page 2, 328-7207.
7 A. I have the page.
8 Q. It says, "Professor Dr. Adalbert Rebic. Dear Mrs. Turkovic," et
9 cetera. I'm just interested in the second paragraph. He says to her, "If
10 a home is destroyed and if the person affected brings a certificate from
11 the club" -- or, rather, the social --
12 A. Help me. Help me. Could you please find the paragraph that
13 you're reading? I cannot find it.
14 Q. There's two documents. The second paragraph from the bottom.
15 A. From the bottom.
16 Q. Yes. It says here, "Unless the person concerned brings a
17 certificate from the club" --
18 A. I see that that's what's written here.
19 Q. I'm asking yet again. Do you know that Professor Adalbert Rebic's
20 office recognised certificates issued by the local clubs that were
21 established on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that in a way
22 represented the municipal authorities of those towns that the refugees
23 came from, Zavidovici, Bihac, Maglaj, et cetera?
24 A. I knew that he wrote that.
25 Q. Do you know that he recognised these documents?
1 A. I knew of cases when they did not recognise those documents.
2 Q. Could you tell the Honourable Trial Chamber how many such cases
3 occurred, when, and so on?
4 A. I have no statistics. I did not consider that to be
5 indispensable. I don't have systematically recorded information. I
6 cannot give you statistics. I don't have any.
7 Q. Well, you know what you know. Please let us move on to document
8 3D 01030. 3D 01030. Have you found it?
9 A. I have the document.
10 Q. Because time is so brief, I'm going to ask you some questions very
11 quickly. Please look at page 143. 143.
12 A. Can someone please help me with this?
13 Q. Madam, look at the map --
14 A. 143 is the page?
15 Q. 143 is the page.
16 MR. KOVACIC: I am afraid we will have a problem here, because
17 those maps, pictures, which were copied in colour were not assigned
18 e-court numbers. So they're all in this folder [Interpretation] 3D 01030,
19 but not every page is marked. So perhaps Mr. Praljak should explain what
20 page he's referring to in terms of the heading.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I be of assistance? I have the
22 page in front of me on the monitor.
23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, on the monitor. Thank you.
24 That will do.
25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Madam --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Praljak please be asked to speak into
3 the microphone.
4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Speak into the microphone.
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Spring 1992, April, May. As the aggression already started, that
7 is to say, of the JNA and the army of Republika Srpska, there were columns
8 of refugees at that time, most of them Muslims, and they were moving
9 towards Herzegovina.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know that the HZ HB, which had been established at that
12 time as well, as the HVO was building a road called the Salvation Road
13 through Mount Vran because all the other roads down south had been severed
14 by the Serbian forces?
15 A. I heard of the Salvation Road.
16 Q. Do you know that these refugees, first and foremost, were put up
17 in the territory of Herzegovina - Posusje, Livno, Tomislavgrad?
18 A. I'm not sure that I know that.
19 Q. I'm going to phrase my question this way: At first, most of the
20 people who were fleeing, did they think that the war would go on for 15
21 days, a month, a month and a half? Was that the prevalent feeling among
22 the people at the time? Do you remember that?
23 A. That's correct. I can confirm that.
24 Q. Do you agree with me that for that reason people were not rushing
25 into Croatia at that time but they, rather, stayed on in these places that
1 were not all that safe and they hoped that they would be going back home
2 soon? Part of the people, that is.
3 A. That sounds logical to me.
4 Q. Now I would like to ask -- all right. Well, these maps. Well, I
5 don't know how many there are, but I'm going to ask you the following: Do
6 you know that refugees from Eastern Herzegovina - Nevesinje, Trebinje and
7 so on - Muslims, were taken care in the municipalities of Mostar,
8 Capljina? Roughly at that time, in 1992, it was about 20.000 people.
9 A. I can testify that at the directorate we tried to obtain this
10 information, but while I was in Bosnia we did not have this information or
11 the relevant data. There were stories.
12 Q. Do you know that towards the end of May or in mid-May, rather, the
13 army of Republika Srpska had reached the eastern bank of the Neretva River
14 and had expelled the entire non-Serb population from the eastern bank of
15 the Neretva River?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that that population was taken care of on the territory HZ
18 HB - Grude, Western Mostar - part of them went to Croatia, to the seaside,
19 and so on and so forth.
20 A. To be quite frank, I really don't know.
21 Q. All right, Mrs. Krajsek, if you don't know, you don't know. We're
22 taking these things in the order they came up. If you don't know, that's
24 Now, another question: Would you agree with me when I say that
25 all the available hotel accommodation along the Adriatic coast and all the
1 other holiday centres, trade union ones, whatever, were placed at the
2 disposal of the refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina and of course Croatia as
4 A. As far as I know, yes.
5 Q. Would you agree with me again that this was more than 100
6 facilities, hotels, holiday homes, whatever, camps, things like that?
7 A. Please don't ask me to confirm numbers. There was a large number,
8 but I can't be specific as to the exact number.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, yesterday, some figures were presented here
10 related to the Croatian government, et cetera, but let's look at one
11 thing. Do you know that those hotel companies were paid by the Croatian
12 government to accommodate, send some food, et cetera, to accommodate these
13 people, and they paid 2 euros per day, the equivalent of 2 euros per day,
14 per person per day?
15 A. I don't know about that, no.
16 Q. I'm sure you read about it later on. But do you know that all
17 these hotels and holiday facilities with this kind of economic policy were
18 completely devastated? Nothing was invested in them for years and their
19 value dropped to 25 to 30 per cent of what their value was before the
20 war. They were in such poor repair.
21 A. Yes, I do know that.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, during the war, did you ever hear of me, my name,
23 surname? Did you know about me? Did you know of me?
24 A. I'm not quite sure when I first heard of you, whether that was
25 during the war or after the war.
1 Q. All right. Thank you. Probably after the Old Bridge, because
2 that's when everybody heard of me.
3 Now, in coming into contact with the refugees, did you perhaps
4 learn that in my weekend cottage I had taken in 13 Muslim refugees from
6 A. Not from them, but I did hear that from others.
7 Q. Right. And since I communicated with them because they needed to
8 be fed and kept warm, do you know that those refugees received certain
9 resources from the representatives of the Iranian, let's say, authorities
10 in their hands personally every month?
11 A. No, I don't know about that.
12 Q. You don't know about that. Right. And you don't know that
13 this -- that it was the Iranians that just handed this money out to
14 Muslims alone, never to Croats. Do you know about that?
15 A. Can we go back a bit? You asked me about the refugees that were
16 put up in your house, is that what you mean, in your holiday home?
17 Q. No, I mean generally.
18 A. Generally, I do know, yes.
19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I'd like to go into private
20 session for a moment because I have to name names.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 20325 redacted. Private session
21 [Open session]
22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] We're back in open session,
23 Your Honour.
24 Just a moment, please.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go back into private
2 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Madam, were there many people from the former Yugoslavia working
16 in Western European countries as guest workers?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. About 350.000 Croats from Croatia? Would that be the kind of
20 A. I persistently keep telling you that I'm not somebody who is
21 well-versed in figures.
22 Q. You don't know how many Bosniaks worked in the countries of
23 Western Europe?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. But did you know that many refugees were staying with friends,
1 like they were with me, in order to contact their own people who worked in
2 France, Belgium, et cetera, and then would travel with their Yugoslav
3 passport to go to those people they knew in third countries without having
4 previously registered as refugees?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know when the conflicts broke out - we're
7 not going to discuss who expelled whom and so on - but anyway, that after
8 the fall of Jajce, when the Serbs took control of Jajce, a large number of
9 Croats and some Muslims moved towards Croatia? Do you know about that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know anything about the numbers of refugees who fled from
12 Visoko, Sarajevo, Kresevo, Mostar, Capljina, those municipalities?
13 A. At the time when I might have known that, that data was
14 inaccessible, so I didn't have that information to hand.
15 Q. You say that you talked to refugees who had fled from Zenica and
16 Kakanj in Pinete, and my question to you is this: Do you know that in the
17 Kakanj municipality, on the 18th of May, in Kakanj, in 1993, nine Croats
18 were killed? I'm going to enumerate all these cases, and then you can
19 tell me what you knew.
20 On the 12th of June, in Trubaci [phoen], three Croats were
21 killed. In Tesevo Ljesem Balici [phoen], on the 13th of June, 1993, seven
22 Croats were killed. In Slapasnice, on the 13th of June --
23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, I do not quite see much purpose in
24 this because the witness has numerous times told us that she does not
25 remember figures, and it might be more useful if you could sort of put one
1 more global question which she could answer, probably.
2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
3 Q. According to the information that was published and collected, in
4 Kakanj municipality, 55 Croats were killed before they were expelled. I
5 won't go into who did that - that's not my topic - but did the refugees
6 talk to you about any of these incidents, tell you about that, in Pinete?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you.
9 Now, when you spent time there in Doljani, you told us about that
10 yesterday, and I have facts and figures for 1.147 Croats killed in 21
11 municipalities from Capljina towards the north, in all the different
12 places in that area, Uzdol, Grabovica, Konjic, Dusina, et cetera. Now,
13 while you were there, through the embassy did you have information about
14 the crimes that certain people from the BH army, for instance, committed
15 against the Croats?
16 A. From the public information media, that's where I learnt about
17 that kind of thing.
18 Q. Now, in a brochure that I have prepared for these proceedings, you
19 will find 290 religious facilities that were damaged, destroyed. This
20 includes churches and so on. And some members of the BH army committed
21 these crimes in the territory that they took control of. So did you have
22 any information about that during the time that you spent there?
23 A. Well, if the papers and information media informed about it, then
24 I would have heard about them, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know that when the war flared up between
1 the BH army and the HVO, the situation amongst the refugees, both Croats
2 and Bosniaks, deteriorated in certain areas?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mrs. Krajsek, did you know that the authorities of the Republic of
5 Croatia were then faced with the fact that these two belligerent parties
6 had to be separated to avoid an internationality conflict because there
7 were casualties on both sides? So do you know that the authorities had to
8 step in?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Now some more documents, and in that same document
11 number on page -- 3D 01030, and the page is 197, 3D 26-0197. They are two
12 letters written by Mrs. Bisera Turkovic and sent, we'll see to whom when
13 you find them.
14 A. I'm afraid I can't find those numbers.
15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, could you help
16 us out.
17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] It will come up on e-court.
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] All right. Then I'll just
19 read out the basics.
20 Q. The first letter was written on the 19th of April, 1994, and
21 you'll see on the second page that somebody signed for Mrs. Bisera
22 Turkovic, and the letter was sent to the UN Human Rights Centre, to
23 international organisations, the ICRC, and so on and so forth. And the
24 title says, "UNHCR," to the attention of Mr. Jacques Moucher, High
25 Commissioner. Have you found that? Do you see the letter?
1 A. I can see it on the screen but I couldn't find it in my documents.
2 Q. That's fine. So she's relating to Bosniaks going on to third
3 countries to resettle, relocate into third countries.
4 A. I have found the document.
5 Q. Now, madam, did you know that the UNHCR, as it says here, the
6 staff of the UNHCR was collecting together refugees and explaining to them
7 that conditions were not yet right for safe return to Mostar because they
8 say that Mostar was not a safe place for either the Croats or the Serbs
9 and that they couldn't go to Mostar, that they should be patient, and not
10 to be taken in by the convoys that were prepared for a return journey.
11 And on the 19th of April -- well, my question is this: Do you
12 know that the Washington Accords had been signed and that the two sides,
13 two forces, the BH army and the HVO, had been separated and the war had
14 actually ceased? Do you know about that? After the agreement had been
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. So after the Split agreement and the separation of forces, an
18 organised return was supposed to begin, and the UNHCR says here or,
19 rather, Mrs. Turkovic says: "If the Croats revoke your status of
20 refugees, then we will organise your departure to third countries." And
21 she goes on to say --
22 A. Just a moment, please. I do apologise, but I just can't follow
23 you, looking at the document. Either read exactly what it says or it's
24 your interpretation.
25 Q. All right. So you read the third paragraph from the top, then.
1 A. "We also have information about the continuous activities of the
2 UNHCR in collective refugee centres: Gasinci, Savudrija, Ucka, Varazdin
3 Obonjan, and others relating to the everyday work of the UNHCR on the
4 relocation and displacement of Bosnian refugees (with the regulated
5 refugee status) from the republic of Croatia to third countries."
6 I know that. I know the document.
7 Q. You know the document?
8 A. I wrote it.
9 Q. As far as I understand things, you are complaining about the
10 UNHCR, why they are working on relocating Muslims to third countries.
11 A. I'm not complaining. I'm just asking them why.
12 Q. All right. Let's move on to the next document. The next
13 document, 3D 26-0199 is the page number.
14 A. Are we dealing with your binder now?
15 Q. I don't know.
16 A. Yes, yes, but just repeat the number, please.
17 Q. 3D 26-0199.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please try and give us the page
19 number in English so the registrar can put them on the screen.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Here it goes. 3D 26-0199.
21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the English is 0258.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I suggest something? Could
23 someone confirm for me that we have the right document on the monitor?
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] It's on the monitor right
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Madam, this document that you've
3 been looking at so far, 199 is just a few pages behind.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it. Thank you to everybody.
5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Ms. Krajsek, you see it's the same thing. Zagreb, on the 19th of
7 April. I don't know who it was who signed this. Is it you or somebody
8 else? Signing for Bisera Turkovic. Bisera Turkovic is writing to
9 Dr. Adalbert Rebic.
10 A. I know the document. I wrote it. The secretary signed it on
11 behalf of Mrs. Turkovic.
12 Q. All right. Then we don't need much comment. In the first
13 paragraph, we see that she says:
14 "Information on increasing number of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian
15 citizens who, through the help the UNHCR, keep arriving on the border of
16 the Republic of Croatia with the aim of reaching third countries."
17 And she says:
18 "We particularly appreciate and accept the offered cooperation
19 between the Office for Expelled Persons and Refugees and the Embassy by
20 which control of work of organisations would be introduced, those dealing
21 with forwarding civilians from Bosnia-Herzegovina."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Doesn't this show that the UNHCR, and there are many, many other
24 documents, the UNHCR was dealing in a continuous and organised manner on
25 getting intellectuals and other younger people from Bosnia-Herzegovina to
1 third countries?
2 A. What is obvious on the basis of this is that I highly appreciate
3 and accept the cooperation offered, bearing in mind the information
4 provided that the UNHCR is doing what you've said just now.
5 Q. Thank you. Ms. Krajsek, do you know that many others as well - we
6 cannot go through all the documents - were doing the same thing as the
7 UNHCR was doing?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Now tell me the following: Do you know of a single
10 case where the Croatian state by force, against the will of refugees,
11 returned a single refugee to another country across the Croatian border,
12 north, south, east, west?
13 A. Would you repeat that question. You're asking me about a refugee
14 or --
15 Q. We're talking about refugees in the Republic of Croatia. Do you
16 have any example where an institution of the Republic of Croatia took two,
17 three, five, ten refugees, and against their own will relocated them to
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia, anywhere?
19 A. I do have such information.
20 Q. What information?
21 A. In a given period of time - I don't want to refer to dates without
22 the relevant documents - a great deal of information was coming to the
23 embassy to the effect that the Croatian police were stopping refugees,
24 especially in Zagreb, taking away their refugee papers, arresting them,
25 putting them up at Remetinec, I think. But there are documents about
1 that. I reported on that. For me, these are examples of why I'm giving
2 you an affirmative answer.
3 Q. Madam, now there is an area that we will have to deal with very
4 quickly, regrettably, and I cannot really clarify that with you. At one
5 moment you mentioned 450 and at another moment 120, Muslims who went
6 missing; is that right?
7 A. I wish I could see the document itself. I remember that
8 particular figure, for instance, but I don't know what the other terms I
9 stated were.
10 Q. 65 and 67 are the paragraphs of your statement, and you say that
11 there are 120 arrested Muslims. And you also mentioned that in the Rama
12 action they were being arrested.
13 So I'm going to put my question again. Do you know that the
14 action Rama was carried out by the Croatian police at the request of the
15 police of the HZ HB to arrest those Croats from Rama and the surrounding
16 area who had committed some crimes or who were suspects of having
17 committed certain crimes? Do you know that the Rama action pertained to
18 Croats who had fled to the Republic of Croatia and were suspected of
19 having committed certain crimes, convoys, all sorts of things?
20 A. I just know upon whom this action had a reflection. I don't know
21 why it was taken in the first place.
22 Q. Well, this is how I'm going to phrase my question: Do you know
23 that there were training centres of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the
24 Republic of Croatia? At Borongaj, Sljeme, Jastrebarsko, Pljesivica,
25 Kutina, Sisak, and so on and so forth? Do you know these facts, that the
1 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Republic of Croatia had its own training
2 grounds, training centres?
3 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
4 Q. All right. Yesterday you mentioned some name. Do you know Asim
6 A. I do not recall such a name.
7 Q. You remember Hajrudin Osmanagic?
8 A. Hajrudin Osmanagic was an attache. He had something to do with
9 the military.
10 Q. Yes. He was the military attache of the army of
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Zoran Poprzenovic , was he the same after him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Hasan Efendic?
16 A. Yes. No. Actually, I'm not giving you the position, but I know
17 the name.
18 Q. Do you know that over 30 persons had diplomatic passports and that
19 they were doing all the military work for the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 in the territory of Croatia?
21 A. I really do not know about that.
22 Q. All right, madam. Okay, okay. Please look at document -- well,
23 I'm just going to ask you this very briefly: Do you know how many units
24 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were established in the territory of the
25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- or, rather, Croatia and were sent to the
1 front line in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know whether out of these 120 individuals that you mention
4 and the 450 who you somehow lost sight of, do you have any names from the
5 ranks of these people so that I can look it up in the documentation and
6 see whether they were escorted by the Croatian police and went to one of
7 these units that were established, whether they went to the Bihac front,
8 to the front in Central Bosnia? Do you have any names of any of these
9 people who went missing, as far as you are concerned?
10 A. If I did not refer to the names in my reports, and if I did not
11 attach any lists, that means that I never had these names.
12 Q. Madam, well, regrettably, you don't know this, but this is roughly
13 how I'm going to put it: Assistance in arming the army of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina from the Republic of Croatia. Did you know that there
15 was assistance in arming the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was carried
16 out by the Republic of Croatia?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So it is all in vain that I went through 3.000 -- 3.238 documents,
19 if I am to quantify all this information, quantified information contained
20 in tables. In a way, it would be in vain if I were to go through all of
21 this with you.
22 A. If you were to ask me anything that was not within my own line of
23 work, you would be asking me that in vain, yes.
24 Q. Tell me, do you know that vis-a-vis Bihac there was always an
25 airlift from the Republic of Croatia towards the Coralici airport near
1 Bihac? Did you hear about that?
2 A. Yes. Sorry, I don't want to feel embarrassed in any way. When
3 you ask me whether I know about something, I give an answer on the basis
4 of my own knowledge or I point out that I heard through the media. If you
5 want to go with me through documents that I had never seen, I really
6 cannot help you with that and I cannot give you an affirmative answer. I
7 don't want you to understand me to be an uncooperative person.
8 Q. No. No, madam. I know that they were -- well, I mean I want to
9 ask you: Jastrebarsko, Borongaj, Popovac, Duboki Jarak, Ploce, did you
10 ever hear of these being bases where the Croatian army had the right to
11 store weapons which were afterwards sent to the front in Sarajevo,
12 Srebrenica, Gorazde, for the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. No, I did not hear of that.
14 Q. All right. Well, yes. Just a second, please. I have a sub-file
15 here. Weapons packaged in food packaging and put into UNHCR vehicles.
16 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I've tried not to get on my
17 feet today, but I am wondering at this point whether, as a courtesy to
18 Ms. Alaburic, it would be better to let her use her time than to waste
19 time on irrelevant questions to this witness, who, for the last half hour,
20 has basically said, "I don't know anything about that. I don't know about
21 military matters," but Mr. Praljak continues to put questions to her.
22 I don't think it's a wise use of time. When you say, You have an
23 hour, that that means you can waste an hour and then Ms. Alaburic is not
24 going to have time to put perhaps, I hope, good and relevant questions to
25 the witness. So I just suggest that out of courtesy, out of courtesy
1 Mr. Praljak might want to leave time, instead of asking irrelevant
2 questions, for his colleague.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that it is
4 indisputable that until now you gave the Defence the right to allocate
5 their own time amongst themselves as best they could. Ms. Alaburic said
6 that she needed 50 minutes, and Mr. Praljak knows that and he will abide
7 by that. However, as for what the Prosecutor said just now, that Praljak
8 has been asking time and again this witness about things she didn't know
9 and that therefore this was a waste of time and the Prosecutor is
10 therefore worried about that, I have to say that Praljak has relevant
11 subjects to deal with, and the witness either knows or doesn't know.
12 I personally expected the witness to respond to some questions
13 saying that she didn't know anything about it, but she, on the contrary,
14 gave some very detailed and specific information. So Praljak takes into
15 account the fact that the witness was, A, in the embassy that had a great
16 deal of information; B, she lived in Croatia where she could, in different
17 ways, find out about different things, not to mention the period while she
18 was still in Bosnia-Herzegovina. So it is only reasonable for Praljak to
19 ask questions. It is not a fishing expedition. Sometimes it is only
20 reasonable that the witness will know the answer. Sometimes she will not
21 know. But Praljak is entitled to ask.
22 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour.
23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May I ask --
24 MR. SCOTT: I just want to be clear again. What I heard
25 Ms. Alaburic say earlier today is that she would like as much additional
1 time as possible. That's what she asked the Chamber for earlier. I also
2 indicate that I do expect a reasonable amount of redirect time. And I do
3 object, I do object, when the rights of other parties, including
4 Ms. Alaburic and myself, are prejudiced by the waste of time on irrelevant
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, obviously on
7 military matters this witness cannot give any answers. You now have 10
8 minutes left. You can continue asking questions by which she can only
9 reply by, "I don't know," and these are questions that you have already
10 put to others. It's up to you. You have 10 minutes, and 10 minutes only.
11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 You see, the lady said in her statement that once 120 people went missing
13 and on another occasion 450 people went missing, and that they were taken
14 by the Croatian police. That is a crime, if it remains written that way.
15 Of course I cannot go through the entire documents; that won't work. But
16 does she know how many people in Croatia were equipped, trained, in BH
17 army units and how they went to Bihac and Central Bosnia and how many of
18 them got killed as they were going to Bihac? This is based on lists, et
19 cetera, so this is something that the lady knew.
20 Q. I know that you knew of that, but you were not aware of what their
21 fate was after that. So that is what I wanted to check. That is number
23 Number two, if I'm talking about weapons that were packed into
24 food packaging on UNHCR trucks, which was regular practice, and in
25 organised fashion tins were opened and, with the presence of the Croatian
1 army, myself included -- well, this has something to do with the convoy
2 from Split, because the lady said that the convoy stood there for as long
3 as it did, so I know and I'm asking the lady whether she knows - and again
4 I'm going to show you the document - that in these tins there were
5 weapons. Do you know that?
6 A. No, I don't know that.
7 Q. All right, madam. Thank you very much. Now please look at 3D
9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Because, Your Honours, the
10 answer that the lady does not know is also a relevant answer, to see what
11 her overall knowledge was in it order to draw certain conclusions on the
12 conduct of all segments of the Croatian state, myself included, and also
13 these people who sit here and who stand accused of a joint criminal
15 Q. Madam, please, look at any document. Just look at it. Look at
16 the first one. It says, "On the day," whatever, the 24th of June, 1993,
17 and UNHCR, 01236 --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the
19 document. It is very hard to find it.
20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Is that what is written there? 3D 01031. And the page is 262,
23 A. I have the page in front of me, which is on the monitor now.
24 Q. Yes. Do you see the truck?
25 A. What you are saying is written here, yes.
1 Q. I'm going to skip all the other documents. As far as Bihac is
2 concerned, there is 1.200 of them.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, this document that
4 you have just shown, which is 262 in B/C/S, I see that there is some kind
5 of note at the end of the document saying that there is good cooperation
6 on the line of the HVO. What exactly does this mean? It looks like
7 weapons are going to cross into Bosnia-Herzegovina in UNHCR trucks that
8 have false registration plates, but everything is done in full cooperation
9 with the HVO. Is that what the last sentence means?
10 And, Witness, please, you were at the embassy. Were you aware of
11 the fact that weapons could cross into Bosnia-Herzegovina from the
12 Republic of Croatia in full cooperation?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had no information linked to any
14 military operations and cooperation. Information like that never reached
15 me, nor would it have.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you know nothing.
17 Yes, Mr. Praljak.
18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from the
19 documents I could show that over 40 UNHCR trucks did take weapons to Bihac
20 in Central Bosnia and later on even more and there was this cooperation.
21 There are many, many documents about that. But never mind.
22 Q. Madam, look at the map that we're showing you now, the big map
23 next to you on the easel. On that map I have written in -- indicated what
24 we're interested in. Towards the end of 1992, the amount of free
25 territory left in Bosnia-Herzegovina. You see the areas occupied in the
1 Republic of Croatia. It was a map that appeared in the papers. Would
2 that roughly be it?
3 A. I'm not qualified at all to answer that question, whether it is or
4 is not. And to be quite frank, regardless of my glasses, I really can't
5 see it clearly. I never knew anything about that, Mr. Praljak. Those are
6 things that I just do not know about.
7 Q. All right. But let me just ask you this, I'll put it this way:
8 Can you confirm that it was very difficult and almost impossible to
9 accommodate refugees in the town of Osijek and its surrounding parts
10 because it was near to the area that was bombed?
11 A. First of all, I don't know which period you have in mind, but
12 generally speaking, I think that that statement is logical.
13 Q. I'm going to give you some other names of towns. Vinkovac,
14 because of the vicinity of the battlefield; is that right? Slavonski
15 Brod, another place. Sisak, Karlovac, Ogulin, Dubrovnik, because it was
16 destroyed, and so on.
17 A. It's like this: There were some refugees in Sisak but I don't
18 really know what you're asking me. Would you restate your question,
20 Q. Because of the very serious shelling of the town of Osijek and all
21 the civilians that were killed and so on, so in town and the surrounding
22 parts, because we mentioned Sisak, et cetera, and the refugees there, but
23 anyway, in those towns, the one that I mentioned, they were places where
24 refugees couldn't be put up because there was combat activity going on,
25 because the Serbs were shooting Sisak, Karlovac, Ogulin, Slavonski Brod,
1 Vinkovci. Is that something that you would agree with? Do you know about
3 A. As far as I remember, with the exception of Sisak and all those
4 other places you mentioned, I don't know that any refugees were put up
6 Q. All right. So there was just Istria, Dalmatia, Sibenik -- well,
7 Sibenik wasn't very secure. There were very few places left. Zadar,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. There was just one ferry link between the north and south of
11 Croatia, the destroyed bridge on Pag island, and you had to use the ferry;
12 right? So all the refugees had to take this ferry-line?
13 A. Yes, as far as I know.
14 Q. Now, my last question, madam. Regardless of all the problems --
15 sometimes there were 800.000 refugees at one point in time, with a third
16 of the territory occupied and territories where refugees could not be
17 housed. Now, everything you learnt before the war, after the war, during
18 the war, everything that Croatia did, Croatia made an exceptionally strong
19 effort to take care of the refugees coming in from Bosnia and Herzegovina,
20 Croats, Muslims, not differentiating between the two at all except for
21 perhaps some rare examples. But they acted as a civilised state where the
22 rule of law prevailed, that that is how they acted, that they acted in
23 conformity with that.
24 A. As an attache for refugees, unfortunately, I was the person in
25 place where the information about the problems reached me. As the attache
1 for refugees, I can say regardless of the intentions or wishes - I don't
2 want to enter into the realm; they might have been good intentions - but
3 the information that reached me was information about the problems that
4 the refugees faced and where they required additional protection.
5 Q. All right. Tell me now, madam, did you check this information
6 out? If you were told that somebody attacked them and so on, did you have
7 the possibility of checking out the information they gave you? And did
8 you, for the lady you mentioned on the island of Obonjan, for example, the
9 mother with the two children, did you send in a request to the Croatian
10 authorities to respond and to tell you what had happened and who had been
11 expelled from Split? Did you ask for that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did they give you an answer?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Well, can we have the letter where you sent out your request?
16 A. I think you already have that document, that it's included in the
17 documents, that letter.
18 Q. Now, do you know that on the island of Obonjan, even before the
19 refugees arrived, that there is no ferry even to the present day, that
20 there was just a ferry-line only at the time when the refugees there? Do
21 you know about that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you for your cooperation. I have no further questions.
24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 May I just, Your Honour, ask that the map receive an IC number, because
1 the lady did say she knew about the towns, and the legend is
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number for the
4 IC map.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the map will become Exhibit IC 607.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, one question.
7 In this embassy where you were working in Zagreb, we know that you were in
8 charge of refugees, but I assume that other people were dealing with other
9 sectors, notably, military matters. So as far as you're aware, was there
10 a military attache in the embassy?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. In the documents prepared
13 by Mr. Praljak, I see that there's one called Hajrudin Osmanagic. Does
14 this ring a bell? Hajrudin Osmanagic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did meet Mr. Osmanagic when
16 he took over the post of attache, military attache.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So we have a document,
18 number 3D 260290, coming from the military attache and sent to the
19 commander of the 3rd Corps, Ramiz Turkovic. This is a very
20 straightforward document. It says that weapons and equipment are coming
21 on trucks with UNHCR registration plates. So you were in charge of
22 refugees, and I'm sure if this had been known it might have created a
23 problem. So did the military attache -- did you know about this? Did
24 somebody talk to you about this?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He never said anything to you
2 about this?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, but we have the document
5 here which states that weapons were being sent in August 1993 to
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina on trucks with UNHCR registration plates, and we
7 actually have the registration plates, the numbers. This is document 3D
8 26-0290, under 3D 0131. I'm sure the Judges will scrutinise this
10 Now, Mrs. -- oh, my colleague Judge Mindua has a question.
11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, in the same line
12 as the President's question, I would like to know whether -- in your
13 embassy in Croatia you told us that there were about 30 people working,
14 among which a military attache. Is that it?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] These 30 people, of course, had
17 diplomatic passports, I assume.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. All I know is that
19 not everybody who worked for the embassy, whether in the embassy or in the
20 consular offices, enjoyed diplomatic status. I don't know how many of
21 them did have diplomatic passports.
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right. But did
23 your embassy have a directory with the names of all people that had a
24 diplomatic passport from your own country, people who had this passport
25 but who were working in Croatia, who were residing permanently in
1 Croatia? Of course, you also had a consular department in charge of the
2 citizens living in Croatia. Was there a directory?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, just a question on
6 the document I was mentioning earlier, 20290. Where does it come from?
7 Was it disclosed by the Prosecution or did you obtain it directly during
8 your investigation?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May we go into private session, Your
10 Honours, for a moment, please.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into private session.
12 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you have the floor
23 before we take a break. But I see that Ms. Nozica is on her feet.
24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Before my colleague takes the floor,
25 I would like to provide Judge Mindua with an explanation when he asked
1 about the origins of the document that Mr. Praljak presented and which
2 dates back to 1995 and was signed by Mr. Pavlovic.
3 Yesterday, in court I showed a document, 2D 00498 was the number,
4 and as far as I know Judge Mindua was provided with my binder today, but
5 it is a set of documents or, rather, a complete document that we were
6 provided under Rule 68 by the Prosecutor.
7 Now, if you leaf through that entire document, and referring to
8 page 0328-4950, you will find identical documents to those shown by
9 Mr. Praljak from 1995 and signed by Mr. Pavlovic. And from this binder
10 you can see that that is part of the documentation which was quite
11 obviously used in Austria for the investigation against certain persons
12 and organisations.
13 So let me repeat: This document was disclosed by the Prosecutor,
14 provided to us by the Prosecutor, by way of assistance. Thank you.
15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like to go back to what Mr. Praljak has
16 told us. At one point he said, We had to send material, including
17 weapons, to Bihac. No one recognised that they were completely closed
18 in. Does that mean that the Croat republic was also, I suppose, using
19 UNHCR or UNHCR-disguised vehicles for such transports of military
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, hold on. Before there's an answer to that
22 question, Your Honour, are you seeking to -- are you placing General
23 Praljak under the obligation of answering questions, in other words,
25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm giving him the opportunity to clarify a
1 statement that he has made and that is on the record and which might be
2 interpreted in different manners. I would like to avoid a
4 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that. At this point, as long as the
5 understanding is that, first of all, questions are not evidence, questions
6 that are posed or even statements that attorneys make, whether it's on
7 cross or direct, opening or closing, are not evidence.
8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's understood.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: That's understood. And given that Mr. Praljak is
10 representing himself, of course, and I understand that the Prosecutor here
11 is mumbling, as usual, but given that there are attitude is that
12 Mr. Praljak is testifying, I think we need to be absolutely clear that,
13 first and foremost, one, he's not under oath; two, he has no obligation to
14 testify. If he does choose to testify, then the Prosecutor can ask all
15 the questions, as can the Chamber.
16 So I think that we need to have some clarification that -- that
17 you're asking him to clarify a statement, but I think we're on dangerous
18 ground at this point of somehow transgressing into some sort of violation
19 of rights.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Once again, we are going to
21 waste a lot of precious time. This is totally irrelevant.
22 Mr. Scott, let's waste some more time. Please have the floor.
23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I won't do it. I'm not going to waste
24 time. But I would like to come back to the topic. But I don't think it's
25 correct to let other people have the floor and then make a comment like
1 that to the Prosecution about wasting time. I'm sorry, Your Honour, with
2 great respect, I object to that. But based on your instruction, I will
3 not go further.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to tell you why we are
5 wasting time. Judge Trechsel asked Mr. Praljak to clarify one of the
6 answers he'd given. It was a point of clarification. It was not a
7 question; it was a point of clarification. And Mr. Praljak, if he chooses
8 to do so, can answer, give a clarification. We are not entering a
9 discussion here. We are just trying to understand what Mr. Praljak was
10 saying, and he was perfectly entitled to answer or not, to clarify or not.
11 Mr. Praljak.
12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Very gladly. UNHCR trucks,
13 fuel trucks with double bottoms, were used for transporting weapons to the
14 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina towards Bihac non-stop, along with two aircraft
15 provided by the Croatian government. For those parts of the army of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina that were outside the territory of the HVO, when there
17 was a conflict, then it was more difficult for convoys to get through
18 because it had to be explained to the boys that this could not be done.
19 And then it was loaded onto the trucks with full knowledge of the Croatian
20 state because it was done on our territory. These were original trucks.
21 The people who were engaged in the transport, who were driving, knew about
23 I mean, I can testify about that for days, about all of this when
24 my turn comes. Mr. Kovacic is defending me properly, but I have to say
25 that I'm doing this, for all the efforts I have made over the past 10
1 years, to obtain the truth. Thank you.
2 JUDGE PRANDLER: Yes. Thank you. I would like to make two
3 points. The first one, that this question was asked by the President,
4 also by Judge Mindua, and myself, I would like to add my voice to know
5 more about the origin of the documents. And, actually, Mr. Praljak has
6 spoken about it, but I am still, in a way, doubtful as far as the
7 authenticity of the documents is concerned. So I believe that this issue
8 should be further studied. That was number one.
9 Number two, I really feel that since we have to finish after the
10 break, a quarter to 2.00, I would like to know now what is the actual
11 situation with the time allocation, because we should, first of all --
12 probably we should ask the Prosecution what time they would like to have,
13 and after this, we have to decide how to proceed, because we have lost a
14 lot of time now. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as time is concern, I
16 believe Ms. Alaburic needs 15 to 20 minutes. Then we'll have the break.
17 How much time will you need, Mr. Scott, for re-examination?
18 Because after the break we'll have only 45 minutes left.
19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, based on past experience, I'm going to
20 say 25 minutes.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So it's still feasible.
22 Ms. Alaburic.
23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Krajsek, good afternoon to you. First of
1 all, I would like us to clarify one answer you gave to General Praljak's
2 question that was recorded in today's transcript, page 63. I'm not going
3 to have any documents. We are simply going to talk.
4 General Praljak put a question to you about a single example to
5 the effect that the Croatian authorities deported a Bosniak to a third
6 country, a Bosniak refugee to third country, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia,
7 whatever. In response to that question, you said that sometimes the
8 Croatian police would arrest a Bosniak and arrest them in Remetinec. Do
9 you remember that answer that you gave? My question is: Remetinec, to
10 the best of my knowledge, is in Zagreb. Can we agree on that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I conclude that your answer is not the answer that General Praljak
13 put to you, because the question had to do with forced deportation of a
14 Bosniak, a Bosniak refugee from Croatia into a third country.
15 A. Sorry. Is that the question?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I did not receive any such information.
18 Q. Very well. Now, madam, Ms. Krajsek, let's just clarify what
19 Remetinec is. Tell us, Remetinec is the regular investigative prison in
20 Zagreb where people are detained as they are arrested. So it is a
21 detention facility?
22 A. I don't know whether that is the situation, but I can give an
23 explanation in terms of mass deportations.
24 Q. Since you heard that I have very little time, if we do have some
25 time left, I will be very glad to let you explain.
1 Ms. Krajsek, I would like us to explain the question of birth
3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could the interpreters please
4 interpret "Krsni List" not a birth certificate but literally as baptism,
5 christening certificate, as proof of christening.
6 Q. Tell me, Ms. Krajsek, when you refer in your statement and here to
7 christening certificates, you are referring to proof of christening?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell me, Ms. Krajsek, did you ever see any regulation of the
10 Republic of Croatia in which proof of christening was required for the
11 exercise of any civil rights?
12 A. I personally did not look at these documents very much. It was my
13 lawyer, the legal officer at the embassy, who did that.
14 Q. Tell me, did the legal officer tell you that he read any
15 regulation of the Republic of Croatia in which proof of christening was a
16 requirement for the exercise of any right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell me what regulation that was?
19 A. I can in general terms. A number of regulations, I cannot give
20 you --
21 Q. No, no, no. What was the topic? What regulation was that?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The speakers are
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This had to do with the registration
25 of refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina, their enrollment in regular schools
1 in the Republic of Croatia. The required documentation included bringing
2 proof of christening.
3 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Tell me, this did not pertain to secondary schools and
5 universities and pre-school institutions?
6 A. No. We only focused on elementary education, primary education.
7 I don't know whether it applied to the rest, but I'm talking about
8 elementary education.
9 Q. If I understand you properly now, in the words of your legal
10 officer, you did not find out about any regulation that, in principle,
11 would require proof of christening in Croatia to be a requirement for the
12 exercise of any right? A christening certificate was only a requirement
13 for enrolling children in elementary school, just that?
14 A. Sorry, I really have lost the thread of what it was that you were
15 saying. Could you please repeat this once again.
16 Q. If we were to summarise, the legal officer you worked with and who
17 followed regulations said that christening certificates were only required
18 for the enrollment of children in elementary schools.
19 A. No, that's not what he said to me.
20 Q. What did he say to you?
21 A. He did not go into legal regulations. He did not analyse other
22 legal regulations. I know with certainty that he could not analyse all
23 the regulations of the Republic of Croatia. He could and did analyse
24 those regulations which possibly prevented the exercise of some of the
25 rights that refugees should be entitled to in the host country.
1 Q. Ms. Krajsek, since you lived in Croatia for a while, can we not
2 agree that in Croatia there are atheists, there are people who quite
3 simply do not go to the church or are not of the Christian faith and who
4 quite simply had not been baptised and do not have any proof of
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Have you ever heard of these people being denied the exercise of
8 any human rights in the Republic of Croatia? Human rights, civil rights,
9 and so on, in the Republic of Croatia. Have you ever heard of that?
10 A. Well, generally you're talking about citizens? No.
11 Q. All right. Tell me, do you know that christenings are carried out
12 in Catholic churches, Orthodox churches, Protestant churches, and other
13 Christian churches.
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could we please include the
16 Orthodox church in my question because it is important for me to go on.
17 So Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and other Christian churches. Very
19 Q. Tell me, when your legal officer was explaining this proof of
20 christening to you, did he tell you that a proof of christening was
21 required from a Catholic church or would one from the Orthodox church do
22 as well?
23 A. He did not talk to me about that.
24 Q. All right. You said to us today, and it was recorded on today's
25 page 9, that in the school year of 1992-1993 there were no problems for
1 enrolling Bosniak children who were refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina in
2 regular schools of the Republic of Croatia. Can we confirm that?
3 A. I did not receive such information. We can confirm that.
4 Q. Tell me, in view of this statement, could we conclude that your
5 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal should be
6 corrected to the effect that children of Bosniaks could not be enrolled in
7 the regular Croatian schooling system for the mentioned school year of
9 A. I do not know that I said something like that. In September 1992,
10 one enrolled in school, so I could not have talked about that.
11 Q. Ms. Krajsek, precisely because you, in your statement, did not
12 specify what was going on in terms of school years, but you just have this
13 general assessment which would lead us to believe that it pertains to all
14 school years, I simply want to analyse it.
15 So what you say in paragraph 25; namely, that the Bosnian Croat
16 children were incorporated in the regular Croat schooling system, while
17 for the Bosniaks you had to develop this net, I want to ask you now: In
18 relation to your previous answer for the school year of 1992-1993, such an
19 assessment would not be right. Can we agree on that?
20 A. No, we cannot. I believe that it is right.
21 Q. Something seems to be wrong there. Tell me -- let me repeat: In
22 the school year of 1992-1993, could Bosniak children enroll in the regular
23 Croatian schooling system without any problems?
24 A. As far as I know, yes.
25 Q. So in that school year they did not have to go to a special school
1 network. They could be enrolled in regular Croatian schools.
2 A. If they had sufficient capacities.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear counsel. She
4 was speaking at the same time as the witness.
5 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. That is why I want to conclude, in relation to paragraph 25, that
7 children of refugees who were Bosniaks could not go to regular Croatian
8 schools in 1992-1993. That statement, quite simply, is not correct and
9 not accurate, because they could attend schools belonging to the regular
10 school system, as you said to us just now.
11 A. Madam, I claim that in 1992-1993, in that particular school year,
12 a large number of children of Bosniak refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina
13 were not included in the regular elementary education of the Republic of
15 Q. Ms. Krajsek, I suggest that we talk in the following way: First
16 of all, let us see what it was that Bosniak children were entitled to, and
17 then let us look at this together and see whether this right could be
18 exercised due to the existing capacities, teachers, and so on and so
19 forth. So right now we are talking about the rights of Bosniak children.
20 So can we repeat this once again: Can we agree that Bosniak children had
21 the right to enroll in Croatian elementary schools without any problem
22 whatsoever in the school year of 1992-1993?
23 A. As far as I know in that school year, they did have the right to
24 enroll in regular schools.
25 Q. All right. Tell me, to the best of your knowledge, in regular
1 Croatian schools were there any Bosniak children who were enrolled in them
2 in the next school year, from 1993 to 1994?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell me, were they enrolled without any major problems in these
5 schools, if we do not take into account the objective circumstances as of
6 the capacities of the schools involved?
7 A. As for those that I gave an affirmative answer to, they enrolled
8 in the previous school year, in 1992-1993, and without any problems they
9 continued in the school year 1993-1994.
10 Q. All right. Did you ever hear in the school year of 1993-1994 that
11 some children of refugees enrolled in regular elementary schools
12 provisionally and that some children enrolled with the status of guest
14 A. I'm not sure what period I dare speak of. I knew of the status of
15 guest pupils.
16 Q. All right. So you knew the status of guest pupils. Tell me, the
17 status of a guest pupil, was it not conceived in order for Bosniak
18 children that had fled to Croatia and that did not have all the necessary
19 documents could continue their regular schooling in Croatia?
20 A. I really don't know why it was conceived.
21 Q. Do you know what the conditions were for attaining the status of a
22 guest pupil?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If you say that a christening certificate was required for
25 enrolling in regular schools, tell me, were christening certificates
1 required for someone to enroll in school as a guest pupil?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Tell me, nevertheless, as you worked on these matters, did you not
4 find out that a christening certificate, indeed, could not have been a
5 prerequisite for attaining any kind of status in an elementary school in
6 the Republic of Croatia?
7 A. I could not have found out about that.
8 Q. Tell me, did you have any knowledge to the effect that guest
9 pupils, instead of official diplomas, were issued certificates on a
10 completed grade or year?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Tell me, did you address the Ministry of Education in the second
13 half of 1993 in order to establish the right of pupils to continue their
14 education on the basis of these certificates on having completed a given
15 year or grade?
16 A. I do not dare say whether it was the second half of 1993. But
17 that there were such requests, yes, there were.
18 Q. I have a document from September 1993. Was it explained that on
19 the basis of these certificates one could continue one's education and
20 that Bosniak children, indeed, normally continued their schooling in the
21 regular Croatian school system?
22 A. Please repeat your question.
23 Q. Tell me, were all dilemmas resolved in terms of the certificates
24 on having completed a particular grade or year? Was it not possible on
25 that basis to continue regular schooling in the school system of the
1 Republic of Croatia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If we do not take into account technical constraints or, rather,
4 objective constraints in terms of capacity, can we not conclude that in
5 the school year of 1993-1994 -- or, rather, let me phrase it in a positive
6 manner. In the school year of 1993-1994, the regular schooling system of
7 the Republic of Croatia, did it include refugees who were Bosniaks, the
8 children of Bosniak refugees?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Tell me -- elementary schools, secondary schools,
11 extraterritorial, there were three of them. Tell me, children of Bosniaks
12 continued their schooling in secondary schools according to the available
13 capacity of these schools. Can we agree on that?
14 A. On secondary schools?
15 Q. Secondary schools.
16 A. You mentioned three extraterritorial schools. Could you please
17 repeat your question.
18 Q. According to your own information and data, you said that there
19 were three extraterritorial secondary schools.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And not all refugee children, Bosniaks, could attend these
22 schools. Now I'm asking you whether the children of Bosniak refugees
23 continued their education in regular secondary schools of the Republic of
24 Croatia in accordance with the available capacities of the existing
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, Ms. Krajsek, I'm not going to ask you any more questions
3 about schools, but if we have enough time, perhaps we could clarify your
4 visit to the Croat refugees in Pinete, because it seems to me that due to
5 a variety of circumstances there was some confusion there. Can you tell
6 us how many times you came to Pinete?
7 A. Twice, I think.
8 Q. Can you tell us precisely what time of year it was? Was it very
9 hot? Was it in summer or was it late autumn or ...
10 A. The first time, it could have been the summer, because I
11 practically went to all the locations that I knew of at that time, because
12 we had just legalised extraterritorial schools. It could have been the
13 summer period.
14 My second visit, the one that I mentioned due to my visit to the
15 Croat refugees, was perhaps in the autumn. However, there's no need for
16 me to try to remember. There is an exact date on my report as to when it
17 was that I visited.
18 Q. All right. I'm not going to ask you anything else about that.
19 Perhaps we could also go back to the documents of that summer, after the
20 stadium of Poljud. That's where the refugees from the Lasva River valley
21 were. But what I'm interested in is whether you had any information or,
22 rather, did you know -- did you talk to the citizens of Vares who, in the
23 beginning of November, fled from Vares?
24 A. I really don't remember.
25 Q. All right. Tell me, Ms. Krajsek, now I'm going to ask you
1 something that all my colleagues asked you, the ones who asked you before
2 me, but I'm going to phrase if in a different way. Do you know of any
3 other country that did more for refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina than
4 Croatia did?
5 A. You are putting an unpleasant question to me because, as far as
6 I'm concerned, Croatia and other countries did a great deal indeed for
7 refugees from BH.
8 Q. I want you to answer my question, whether a single country did
9 more than the Republic of Croatia did.
10 A. What are our yardsticks? I do not know how to answer that
11 question. I appreciate the enormous effort, and I appreciate that. It
12 was enormous, this assistance, but I really cannot make any evaluations in
13 terms of more or less, enough, whatever.
14 Q. If you yourself cannot assess that, I'm not going to insist on
15 that any further. Thank you very much.
16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have used up my
17 time, and I believe --
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. We will now have a
19 20-minute break, and we will resume 20 minutes from now.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have the floor.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Scott:
24 Q. Good afternoon, madam.
25 MR. SCOTT: And thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Madam, hopefully just a few questions to see if I can give you the
2 opportunity to clarify a few things, perhaps, that came up during
4 Is it correct, madam, we can probably well understand that you
5 were quite busy during this time taking care of the refugees from
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina that were in Croatia itself.
7 A. My working day lasted on an average between 12 to 17 hours over a
8 24-hour period.
9 Q. On the question of the location of your offices - you may have
10 made a passing reference to this; if you did, I'm not sure it was clear -
11 were your offices also located in the same building as the embassy itself?
12 A. I had an office for a very brief period of time in the basement of
13 the embassy building, and two or three months later, or maybe even before
14 that, I relocated to a completely different address.
15 Q. So can the Judges understand, in reference to some of the
16 questions that have been put to you about what you knew or didn't know at
17 the embassy, you arrived at the embassy, I believe you said, on the 1st of
18 March, approximately, the 1st of March, 1993, and you were only actually
19 in the embassy for approximately two or three months.
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. If I can ask you to -- you still have all the binders there. We
22 may have overwhelmed you with paper, probably. If you can find in the
23 Prosecution bundle that we worked looked at, worked with, on Monday and
24 Tuesday morning. If I can ask you to go to Exhibit 3708.
25 In light of the questions that have been asked about the visit to
1 the Bosnian Croat refugees from Central Bosnia or Lasva Valley, if you can
2 look just a bit more carefully at Mr. Rebic's letter. Tell me when you
3 have that, please.
4 A. Yes, I have the letter.
5 Q. If you can go to the -- I believe it would be the end of the third
6 paragraph. That third paragraph starts with the word "Second," and then
7 it goes on toward the end, and that's when Mr. Rebic expressed his concern
8 or his surprise, saying that Ms. Turkovic had not shown any interest in
9 the displaced Croats from Lasva Valley. Do you see that?
10 A. I do see that portion, yes.
11 Q. Now, according to Mr. Rebic's letter, he says -- at the very end
12 of that he says, "...who were expelled by Muslims from their homes and
13 which we have had to accept about a month ago."
14 So if Mr. Rebic's letter is dated the 26th of July, 1993, which it
15 is, then if Mr. Rebic is correct, then we're talking about -- these are
16 people who arrived sometime in late -- approximately late June 1993. Is
17 that --
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And then if you'll go to the exhibit that -- Ms. Turkovic's
20 letter, which should be the next document, 3765. Maybe I missed -- yes,
22 A. I have the letter.
23 Q. This is the letter that you've looked at now in the last several
24 days a couple of times at least. Towards the next -- well, in the
25 paragraph that starts with the words "Mr. Rebic." Again, we come back to
1 the language where Ms. Turkovic says: "With regard to that, I would like
2 to stress that immediately after the arrival of refugees from the Central
3 Bosnia, I went to Poljud to visit them. I issued orders to secure
4 supplies," et cetera.
5 Now, in light of everything that's been said, madam, I mean, do
6 you stand by this statement? And, to your knowledge, is it true that
7 Ms. Turkovic visited those displaced persons in approximately -- sometime
8 in July 1993? Or perhaps even the end of June?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat her answer, please.
10 MR. SCOTT:
11 Q. Witness, you've been asked to give your answer again. Apparently
12 there was some problem with the interpreters hearing it.
13 A. I stand by the statement when I said that I know that
14 Mrs. Turkovic visited the refugees at the Poljud stadium.
15 Q. Now, again, on the same general topic, if you can go to Exhibit
16 4150. 4150.
17 A. I have the document before me.
18 Q. And if you could turn almost to the end of the document, it's the
19 next-to-last paragraph, the paragraph that we've again looked at before
20 starting with the words "About the refugees of the Republic of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina ..." Do you see it? Do you have that?
22 A. I'm looking at it.
23 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Karnavas asked you if, in fact, it wasn't a
24 bit inconsistent for you to say in the letter here that you had no
25 information at all in contrast, for example, to then your evidence that,
1 as one example, Ms. Turkovic had gone to visit the displaced Croats from
2 the Lasva Valley. Do you recall that?
3 A. I do apologise, but could you repeat the question, please.
4 Q. Yes, of course. If you have that question -- if you have the
5 information there -- and actually let me come at it a bit differently.
6 You say:
7 "About the refugees of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina -
8 Croats - sadly, we have no information at all as we do not receive the
9 information about them, nor do we receive any other information from the
10 Office of Displaced" -- probably a missing word, "Persons and Refugees,
11 and they themselves are not contacting the embassy."
12 Let me pause on those two items before I come back to the question
13 I first put to you.
14 When you say you do not receive information, are you saying
15 here -- who are you referring to, if anyone, when you say you do not
16 receive information? From whom?
17 A. I don't think I write exactly that I'm not receiving information
18 from the Office for Refugees and Displaced Persons of the Republic of
19 Croatia. What I'm also saying and writing is that the Croat refugees from
20 BH are not contacting the embassy or, rather, the office for refugees. So
21 those are the sources that I quote when referring to the fact that I did
22 not receive information from them.
23 Q. All right. Madam, I think I need to clarify your answer, because
24 at least what was translated or came into the transcript, you said, "I
25 don't think I write exactly that I'm not receiving ..." It's a bit of a
1 double-negative or at least a bit awkward.
2 When you say "I am not" -- there's two parts -- let me suggest to
3 you there's two parts to the sentence. One is they themselves are not
4 contacting the embassy. Now, when you say "they themselves are not
5 contacting the embassy," who are you referring to?
6 A. I mean the refugees. And when I refer to the Office for Refugees
7 and Displaced Persons of the Republic of Croatia, then I mean that despite
8 the questions about information related to people who came from BH, I
9 still did not receive information or responses.
10 Q. Now, coming back to my original question. In light of what you
11 told us about, for example, Ms. Turkovic going to visit the displaced
12 Croats from Central Bosnia, and you've told us about going to see the
13 displaced Croats from Kakanj, the Vares-Kakanj area, would you agree that
14 perhaps in reference to the statement "We have no information," that
15 perhaps would be a bit of an overstatement to say you had no information?
16 A. Well, that would be exaggerated along those lines, because we had
17 information but from other sources; first of all, from the parents of the
18 children of refugees who were organised in extraterritorial schools and,
19 of course, through the information media, public information media, of the
20 Republic of Croatia.
21 Q. Let me refer you to the working group that you were a part of with
22 Mr. Zubak and Mr. Tadic, if we can come back to that and some questions
23 that arose in that area.
24 I think there's no disagreement that the Tudjman-Izetbegovic
25 agreement was signed on the 14th of September, 1993, which we looked at,
1 and in fact we saw that in the presidential transcript from the next day,
2 the 15th, that you were appointed -- your name was actually in the
3 transcript as having been appointed to one of the working groups; is that
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. I'd like you, if you can find, or if it's not there, in the bundle
7 of the Prlic -- Jadranko Prlic exhibits, 1D, if you have it there or if
8 the usher can assist us, please.
9 MR. SCOTT: Apparently the usher doesn't have a bundle now.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: What's the number?
11 MR. SCOTT: 1D 190-1590. Perhaps while that's being done, for the
12 rest of the court, it could also be put up on e-court.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the document in front of me.
14 MR. SCOTT:
15 Q. Madam, I'd just like for you to scan through the document for a
16 moment. I'm not going to ask you detailed questions about the document,
17 but I'd like you to have some sense of the document, if you could look at
18 it, please.
19 A. Yes, I have leafed through the document quickly.
20 Q. Can you tell the Judges, in looking at this document, whether this
21 was the first -- reflects a record, if you will, of the first meeting of
22 the working group on the 25th of September, 1993?
23 A. Yes, fully, because I can see my signature and the fact that I
24 initialled the rest of the document.
25 Q. Now, in that regard, then, we see that among the other persons at
1 the meeting, of course, were Mr. Zubak and Mr. Tadic, and I think you were
2 already asked by Mr. Karnavas if all four of you didn't, in fact, sign the
3 record, which I think was clear.
4 Had you ever met or had any communications, conversations, with
5 Mr. Tadic prior to the meeting on the 25th of September, 1993?
6 A. No. On condition that this was, indeed, the first meeting. I
7 think it was. At the official meeting held for the first time, I informed
8 Mr. -- I met Mr. Tadic for the first time and had meetings with him.
9 Q. All right. And let me ask you this before moving forward: You
10 were asked questions about whether you considered that you
11 represented "the Muslim nation," and I think we have your answer, but did
12 you consider -- just by way of clarification and as a further foundation
13 for the next couple of questions, did you believe that you were
14 participating in this working group as a representative of only Muslims?
15 A. In this working group I worked by appointment at the Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, working in the name of all the citizens of
18 Q. And with reference to this working group that was set up following
19 the agreement on the 14th of September, 1993, between President Tudjman of
20 Croatia and President Izetbegovic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you ever have
21 any information or understanding why President -- did you ever have any
22 understanding why President Tudjman's appointed representatives were both
23 senior officials of Herceg-Bosna and not officials of the Croatian
25 A. I didn't know at the time that they were senior officials of the
1 HZ HB.
2 Q. When did you learn that, if you did?
3 A. I think it was only upon returning to the country. I didn't know
4 that at this period. That's certain.
5 Q. Now, in going back to Mr. Tadic, then, you told us during direct
6 examination that you then had a number of conversations with Mr. Tadic
7 about moving the Croats from the Kakanj -- excuse me, the Kakanj-Vares
8 area out of that location. Is that correct?
9 A. I do apologise, but could you repeat that. I've lost the train of
10 thought. I wasn't able to hear the question.
11 Q. Sorry. It's probably my mistake, and I know it's been a long
13 You testified -- I just want to confirm you recall testifying on
14 direct examination that you had a number of conversations with Mr. Tadic
15 after first meeting him in which he initiated the subject of relocating
16 the Bosnian Croats from the Kakanj-Vares area; is that correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And was it -- can you confirm to the Judges, was it sometime after
19 those conversations that in fact this group of Croats from the
20 Kakanj-Vares area were then moved to Croatia?
21 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, and to
22 Mr. Scott, too, but I think we should clarify the following: The concept
23 of Croats from the Kakanj-Vares area is highly imprecise. I think it
24 would be important for us to know whether we're dealing with people from
25 Kakanj who were temporarily put up in Vares and that that is why a
1 solution was found for these people of Kakanj from Vares. So that's one
2 topic which we dealt with during the period discussed by the witness. And
3 the citizens of Vares who, at the beginning of November, left Vares is
4 quite a different topic.
5 So could we clarify what we mean? I think it will be especially
6 important and beneficial to Your Honours.
7 MR. SCOTT: As to who, Your Honour, from the Kakanj-Vares area,
8 we've talked about this for some days, not only with this witness but with
9 a number other witnesses. I suggest there should be no question about
10 that for now.
11 As to the timing, whether this is the October -- a group from
12 October or a group from November, again, I leave it to the rest of the
13 evidence. If we're referring to those who arrived, and there seems to be
14 no question about this, that they arrived in the Pinete area at the end of
15 October, then obviously we're not talking about the ones from November.
16 Q. Madam, my question to you was, concerning the Bosnian Croat
17 persons who as a result of various events had found themselves by October
18 in the area of Vares, and after your conversations with Mr. Tadic, was it
19 after that time that you then visited -- after these conversations with
20 Mr. Tadic that you visited the Croats, displaced persons, after they
21 arrived in Croatia?
22 A. Could you clarify your question, please.
23 Q. Yes. Sorry. I don't know what the problem with translation is at
24 the moment, but I'll try to say it again.
25 Madam, you've told us in the last few minutes, you've clarified
1 when you first met Mr. Tadic, looked at the minutes of the meeting, you've
2 also confirmed that it was after conversations with Mr. Tadic that -- when
3 he raised this topic. My only question to you now: So was it after these
4 conversation with Mr. Tadic about moving the Bosnian Croats from the Vares
5 area, was it after that that you then went and visited these Croats after
6 they arrived in Croatia?
7 A. Yes, that's precisely it. After the discussion at these meetings,
8 I went to Pinete and visited the Croats who arrived in Croatia from the
9 area of Kakanj and Vares, and some other places, I think.
10 Q. And can I ask you to look at --
11 MR. SCOTT: If I could have in e-court, please, in the interests
12 of time, could I -- because I don't believe it's in the original bundle,
13 but can you please pull up Exhibit P 05996. Actually, either way. It is
14 in the bundle. I'm sorry. I missed it.
15 A. I have the document.
16 Q. With reference to the second -- well, the first actual paragraph
17 after the introduction, if you will:
18 "On the 20th of October, 1993, approximately 5.500 Croats expelled
19 from the municipalities of Kakanj and Zenica arrived to the municipality
20 of Vares. Muslim armed forces expelled them from their centuries-old
21 hearth," according to this letter. "A reception point was organised for
22 these displaced persons in the Capljina municipality." Then it goes on.
23 If I can then ask you to go to the second page. It may be
24 different in the Bosnian version, so I'm not sure. If you go on down,
25 there are some numbers. And for the area of Novi Grad, do you see the
1 number 1.520 on the 20th of October, 1993?
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.
3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like
4 to assist the Prosecutor as well linked to this group. I think that the
5 title of the document is highly precise and tells us where the group is
6 from. It says, "Report on the expelled Croats from the municipalities of
7 Kakanj in Zenica who arrived from the Vares municipality," which means
8 that this doesn't deal with refugees from Vares. This document clearly
9 points out that it is from Kakanj and Zenica, those who were temporarily
10 in Vares.
11 So this is quite clear on the basis of this document. And I think
12 this is very important, it's an important point, because the witness, both
13 in her written statement and in oral testimony, she said that they were
14 refugees from Vares on several occasions, whereas the document that the
15 Prosecutor is referring to now and the document that he referred to
16 yesterday, which is P 05960, clearly show that they are expelled persons
17 from Kakanj and Zenica. Thank you.
18 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if that's the only -- if that's the
19 nature of the dispute, which I perhaps have not comprehended, that that
20 was specifically the nature of any dispute about this evidence, I don't
21 think there is a dispute. I think everyone -- but I also think the
22 Chamber has heard evidence about how other Croats from Kakanj came and
23 were in the Vares area and has heard other evidence about how they were
24 then -- Croats from that area were then moved out.
25 As to the witness's testimony, just so there's no confusion or
1 mischaracterisation about that, in paragraph 110 of her statement - in the
2 interests of time, Your Honour, I'm not going to ask her; everyone has the
3 statement - it says, "Eventually Bosnian Croats from Kakanj and Vares left
4 and ended up in Istria." But if there's no further dispute about that, I
5 thought the question was about the date and not about whether they came
6 also from Kakanj. But I think that covers the topic in any event.
7 Q. Let me ask you, please, about the access and freedom of
8 movement --
9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry.
10 Ms. Nozica.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I just want to say, before the
13 Prosecutor moves on to another area, that I referred to this point
14 yesterday because the witness, in paragraph 110 of her statement and that
15 is under 92 ter, she says that the Croats arrived from both Kakanj and
16 Vares, and quite obviously, according to the documents shown by the
17 Prosecutor, they were from Kakanj and Zenica, not Kakanj and Vares.
18 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I don't want to waste my time belabouring
19 the issue further. The totality of this evidence, including this evidence
20 and other evidence, is before the Chamber.
21 Q. Madam, I want to move on to another topic because we only have a
22 few minutes, and that is the question of freedom of movement of the Muslim
23 displaced persons that found themselves in Croatia in the second half of
24 1993, and maybe it helps us. I'm focusing now on those who came roughly
25 in the time period between the latter part of July, when the Mostar group
1 arrived, and later the Ljubuski group in August, and the prisoners from
2 Dretelj in September, October. That's the time period I'm talking about.
3 Could you just clarify, because I'm not -- to be perfectly honest,
4 I'm not sure what the balance of your evidence is about that. Did those
5 Muslim displaced persons have freedom of movement to move around Croatia
6 at will?
7 A. These displaced persons had no freedom of movement around
8 Croatia. I might have said that the refugees had the right to free
10 Q. Can I ask you, if you still have it -- sorry. In the --
11 MR. SCOTT: Again, if the usher could assist us. If we could look
12 into the Praljak bundle, I believe at 3D 01036.
13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't want to
14 take up my colleague's time, but do please take a look at the previous
15 answer given by the witness on page 105, line 1 -- lines 1 to 3. Just two
16 sentences, two completely contradictory sentences.
17 Now, how are we going to draw our arguments from that when the
18 time comes? So would the Prosecutor be good enough to clear this up. The
19 refugees could have had freedom of movement or not had freedom of
20 movement, to the best of the witness's knowledge. I know what she's
21 talking about, I know what she means, but I don't want to be faced in a
22 situation where, in the final brief, I spend three pages writing about
23 what this statement by the witness now might or might not mean and imply.
24 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, that's exactly why I asked the question.
25 To be perfectly transparent, that's exactly the reason I asked the
2 Q. Madam, you've also heard the comments of counsel. So in light of
3 what's been said - I assume that's been interpreted to you or you have
4 heard it in a language you understand - there does seem to be a suggestion
5 of some inconsistency in what you've said. So can you clarify: What was
6 the freedom of movement of these persons who arrived in Croatia in the
7 second half of 1993?
8 A. The persons who arrived at that time did not have a recognised
9 status of refugee in the Republic of Croatia, so they were not able to
10 move around. And questions linked to the Mostar and Ljubuski and Dretelj
11 group, I always claimed, and still maintain, that they had no freedom of
12 movement in the Republic of Croatia.
13 When I was asked questions about freedom of movement referring to
14 refugees, that is to say, BH citizens with a recognised refugee status in
15 the Republic of Croatia, my answer was then, as it is now, that to the
16 best of my knowledge they did have the right to freedom of movement.
17 Q. Madam, again, time is short, and in reference to -- I don't know
18 if we have, really, time to find the particular items because it's
19 quite -- some of these documents are quite long. Mr. Praljak showed you a
20 number of documents and tables again with, I guess, Croatian dinars, I
21 suppose it would be, money spent by the Croatian government on education.
22 I thought it was in 3D 01036.
23 MR. SCOTT: Perhaps my colleague can assist me while I go on to
24 another topic. I can't find it at the moment, I have to admit.
25 Q. While she's doing that, if we can go back to the Prlic bundle
1 please, 1D 01329. Thank you.
2 A. Yes, I have the document.
3 Q. If you could go to -- I'm just going to the third page of this
4 document which lists -- starting with the date, the 15th of June, 1993,
5 and then goes on to list the number of convoys down through -- well, at
6 the bottom of that page, 6th of July, and then it continues on over.
7 But according to this document, the title, at least as translated,
8 is "Passages Approved for the Following Convoys from 1 June 1993 to 10
9 December 1993," and my question to you is actually quite -- I think, I
10 hope, quite straightforward. In looking at those lists, do you have any
11 personal knowledge that any of those convoys actually travelled or reached
12 their intended destination during that time?
13 And if it helps to be more specific, if you find for the 24th of
14 June, on the 24th of June -- well, there's actually a number going to
15 Zenica. I think you'll find that on the same page you were looking at a
16 moment ago. Do you have any personal knowledge that any of those convoys
17 actually reached their intended destination?
18 A. I was not in Zenica at the time, but all the information that
19 reached me in Croatia that had to do with convoys and the delivery of
20 humanitarian aid in Bosnia-Herzegovina was the same. It was always said
21 that not a single convoy reached its ultimate destination.
22 Q. And one further example because it relates to, in particular,
23 Mostar, if I can find it again. On the second page, if you go down to the
24 locations in the column marked for location or destination, odrediste,
25 forgive me if I mispronounce it, but if you look down in that and find the
1 first one for -- there's an entry for Mostar, 3rd of July, 1993. Do you
2 have any --
3 A. Yes, I see it.
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether that convoy in fact reached and
5 entered Mostar around that time, July 1993?
6 A. No, I don't have any such knowledge.
7 Q. If I can ask you to go to -- in the bundle of the exhibits for the
8 Stojic Defence, 2 --
9 MR. SCOTT: And again I may need the assistance of the usher
10 please, 2D 00498. I have my work copy. I'm sorry. I would have thought
11 that the registry still had them.
12 Q. Now, if you have that, 2D 00498. And then if I can ask you to
13 turn into the document until you find the page -- the English page I'm
14 going to refer to, Your Honours, for those working in English, on the top
15 of the page, top right corner of the page -- not the very top number, but
16 it has what we call the ERN number, 03284603. And the English version --
17 on the bottom of the page, it has 2D 38-0213, and in the Bosnian or
18 Croatian language version, it is on -- on the bottom of the page, it has
19 2D 38-0196. So hopefully if you can find either the English or -- that
20 will assist you, or find the original language version.
21 Do you have the one on the bottom that's marked 2D 38-0196? Those
22 ones are in numerical order, if you find those.
23 A. Is it on the monitor now, what I'm looking for?
24 Q. Let's look. Yes. Correct. I believe it is. Yes.
25 A. I'll look at the monitor then, because I can't find it.
1 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much. My thanks to the usher for that
3 Q. Madam, on that document if we could just very quickly look -- just
4 so there's no misunderstanding on some of these numbers, if you can assist
5 us, or perhaps there won't be any disagreement about it.
6 In fact, it's written on the -- in item number 4, 12.000 --
7 there's HDR, again, I hope there will be no misunderstanding -- "HRD"
8 stands for Croatian dinar; do you know that, madam?
9 A. Yes, I can see this, but I don't know what these amounts refer
10 to. I really don't.
11 Q. If you look at Valuta in the middle column, it gives the
12 reference. And my first question to you, as one of my colleagues says
13 step by step --
14 A. Yes, now I see it.
15 Q. "HRD," is that Croatian dinar?
16 A. Yes. Yes.
17 Q. And it indicates in the next column to the right, 12.000. Do you
18 see that?
19 A. Yes, I do. I do.
20 Q. And do you see that apparently above that someone has written
21 in "1 Deutschmark equals 560 HRD"?
22 A. Yes, I see that.
23 Q. Just so the Chamber is aware of what that number actually means,
24 do you then understand that 12.000 Croatian dinars in June 1993 was about
25 8 Deutschmarks? Does that sound about right to you? If I have to do the
1 math, we can do it, but that's what I've been told. I hope my sources are
3 Do you understand, madam? Do you have any recollection that as of
4 June 1993, 1 Deutschmark equalled about 1.500 Croatian dinar? If you
5 don't, madam, in the interests of time, I'm sure we can establish that.
6 A. It seems to me that that is not correct. I think it was between
7 360 to 400 Croatian dinars, one German mark, that is. To the best of my
8 recollection, one German mark -- or, rather, a hundred German marks was
9 equal in value to 360 or 400 Croatian dinars.
10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me. Can we know
11 why this is significant? There is no doubt that in this table there are
12 both Croatian dinars and German marks included. So we would be interested
13 in finding out why the Prosecutor is putting this question and why the
14 value of a German mark is important.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we have to complete
16 the examination very quickly.
17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. The only comment, Your Honour, and
18 I -- it can be established other ways, what the exchange rate was at the
19 time. But just so the Chamber was not perhaps misled as to the actual
20 size of some of these numbers. 350.000 might look like a big number, but
21 in fact, in terms of Deutschmarks or dollars, it's not a very large
22 number. But we'll establish that separately.
23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't want to take
24 away the Prosecutor's time - that's not my intention - but if we want to
25 establish the exchange rates, then that's not a problem. In this
1 particular case, it would be 22 German marks. So what it says here is
2 correct. But we then have to go into the cost of living in Croatia. For
3 example, I remember that some 70 per cent of the population in Croatia in
4 the 1990s had an income of 200 German marks a month. So this is opening
5 Pandora's box. If we have to present evidence about this, we will. But
6 as my colleague said, the purpose of this document is not to show the size
7 of these amounts.
8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] As the Prosecutor has not the said
9 why this document is important, could we please look at page 4, that's
10 0328-4604, where the sum of only 20 of these entries is 418.600 German
11 marks and 250 US dollars, and I'm leaving aside the Croatian dinars. I
12 simply ask the witness to confirm these names, but this will lead us too
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, we really have to stop.
15 We have to finish.
16 MR. SCOTT: I understand, Your Honour, but if I could have one
17 minute, because of the interruptions in the last -- I've said very clearly
18 what -- the relevance of why I asked: For the Chamber's information. It
19 was a Defence exhibit, not a Prosecution exhibit, and I think it's only
20 fair that the Chamber have some point of reference as to what the numbers
21 are. That's my only point at this particular time.
22 My last question to the witness is:
23 Q. Witness, looking at the same document, do you have any personal
24 knowledge about any of the expenditures on that page?
25 A. No, none.
1 Q. Madam, once again, I thank you for coming to The Hague, and I wish
2 you a safe return.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.
4 Now, we have to conclude because there is a hearing. Fifteen
5 seconds for Mr. Praljak.
6 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The monthly inflation was
7 over 30 per cent. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Witness, on behalf of my
9 colleagues, I would like to thank you for having come here to testify for
10 the Prosecution. I wish you a safe trip home, and I wish you well in your
11 consulting business.
12 We will meet again next week at -- next week on Monday, 2.15.
13 Thank you.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day
16 of June, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.