1 Thursday, 12 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would the registrar please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor

9 versus Prlic et al. Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. On this last day of

11 hearings before we resume our work at the beginning of August, I would

12 like to welcome all of those in the courtroom, the representatives of the

13 Prosecution, Defence counsel, as well as the accused.

14 First of all, I would like to pay tribute to our registrar who

15 unfortunately is going to leave us for the OSCE in Belgrade for -- to

16 assume high functions, and I congratulate him, but unfortunately it's

17 already the third registrar who is leaving us, so I hope that our fourth

18 registrar will stay with us a bit longer. But, Mr. Marco Bonabello, we

19 thank you for all that you have done for us in helping the Trial Chamber

20 with great efficiency, and on behalf of my colleagues I can only wish you

21 all the best for your future success in your new functions that will be in

22 Belgrade as of the end of August.

23 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, on behalf of the accused and the

24 Defence, may I be associated with what Your Honour has said. We also

25 thank Marco for his hard work and good humour. We're also sorry to have

1 driven away yet another registrar, but we wish him very well in Belgrade.

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if I could add the congratulations

3 of the Prosecution. Marco has assured me that his departure is not in any

4 way linked to my arrival in this case.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

6 Mr. Stringer.

7 Now, very quickly, the Trial Chamber would like to hear the oral

8 observations of the Defence, but the Defence counsel will only have two

9 minutes, in fact, it's very technical. The Prosecution addressed to us on

10 the 11th of July a request for being dispensed from the guideline

11 6(A)(iv). The topic was already addressed during the 65 ter Conference

12 that took place recently. We have the submissions. The Defence has

13 received them as well. The Trial Chamber is going to hand down a written

14 ruling very shortly, but I will give Mr. Karnavas a couple of minutes

15 to -- for the observations of the Defence.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Concerning this matter, Your Honour. Very well. I

17 thought I had made my point very clear the other day. I think that the

18 decision made by the Trial Chamber initially was a good one. I think that

19 the Prosecution should just simply abide by it. It's -- the problem that

20 we have here is that the Prosecution, by way of a tsunami, is overwhelming

21 us with documents, and the only way to counter this tsunami approach is to

22 force them to go through those documents and articulate with precision why

23 is it that they need these documents and how they're related and how

24 they're linked. If you may recall, Mr. President, this was something that

25 you had initiated and had requested prior to the commencement of the trial

1 and I dare say had we taken that approach at the very beginning and maybe

2 streamlined the indictment we wouldn't be in the position that we are here

3 today. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas. I

5 think that the other Defence counsels would like to join in?

6 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good afternoon. In

7 connection with this request by the Prosecution, I wish to say the

8 following: Granting the motion would invalidate the rule that evidence is

9 introduced through witnesses. If we are invalidating this rule or at

10 least raising this to the level of a rule, I think we should reconsider

11 changing Rule 6 so that the Defence will also be able to tender documents

12 not through witnesses under the same rules.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

14 will hand down a written request on that question quite quickly. I have

15 three oral decisions to read. I will go quickly because we don't have

16 much time today.

17 Oral decision on the request of the Prosecution for admission of

18 documents relating to the testimony of Josip Praljak. On the 4th of July,

19 2007, the Prosecution filed a written motion for the admittance of 26

20 documents related to the testimony of Josip Praljak pursuant to Rule 89(C)

21 as well as guideline number 6 set forth in the Trial Chamber's ruling of

22 29 November 2006.

23 The Trial Chamber first of all wants to recall that in a decision

24 of April 3rd, 2007, it has already ruled on the request for admission of

25 documents submitted through Witness Josip Praljak. Moreover, guideline

1 number 6 authorises the Prosecution to submit written requests after the

2 end of the presentation of evidence related to a municipality or a

3 specific topic and not related to a particular witness.

4 That being said, the Trial Chamber notes that the documents

5 requested for admission pertain to the administration and management of

6 the Heliodrom. The Chamber also observes that in paragraph 7 of its

7 motion the Prosecution announces that it intends to file shortly a written

8 motion for the admission of documents pertaining to the Heliodrom. For

9 these reasons and for the sake of judicial efficiency, the Trial Chamber

10 decides to review the current request of the Prosecution for admission of

11 documents at the same time as the motion that it will file shortly for

12 admission of documents pertaining to the Heliodrom. Thus the Trial

13 Chamber decides to defer its ruling on the written motion of the

14 Prosecution dated July 4, 2007.

15 Very well. So in a nutshell, the Trial Chamber will hand down a

16 ruling that will encompass both the motion of July 4th, 2007, and the

17 motion regarding all of the documents pertaining to the Heliodrom. That

18 is the meaning of the first oral decision.

19 Second oral decision. Regarding the Defence's motion to prolong

20 its deadline for answering motions of the Prosecution during the

21 conference of the legal officer on 9th of July, 2007, 65 ter. The Defence

22 asked for an extension of its deadline to the 1st of October to answer the

23 requests of the Prosecution.

24 First of all, the request for the admission of evidence pursuant

25 to Article 92 bis relating to the municipality of Mostar filed by the

1 Prosecution on the 4th of July, 2007.

2 Second request, the request for admission of evidence, documentary

3 evidence, relating to the municipality of Mostar filed by the Prosecution

4 on the 4th of July, 2007.

5 And third request, the request for admission of evidence,

6 documentary evidence, relating to the municipality of Vares filed by the

7 Prosecution on the 5th of July, 2007.

8 And the fourth request, the request for the admission of 26

9 exhibits following the appearance of the Witness Praljak filed by the

10 Prosecution on the 4th of July, 2007.

11 The Prosecution has not opposed this request for an extension of

12 the deadline. The Trial Chamber notes that pursuant to Rule 126 bis,

13 answers to the motions or requests must be submitted on the 18th and 19th

14 of July, 2007. Nonetheless, given the great number of pending requests to

15 which the Defence must provide an answer, the Trial Chamber feels that it

16 would be appropriate to grant an extension of the deadline till the 24th

17 of September, 2007, for the motions one, two, and three.

18 As to the answers to the request for admission of 26 exhibits, the

19 fourth motion or request, the Trial Chamber recalls that it has just

20 decided to defer its ruling on that request waiting for the Prosecution's

21 next motion that it will file shortly regarding documents pertaining to

22 the Heliodrom. Hence the Defence will be able to file one single response

23 to those two motions taken together. Thus in a nutshell, for the first

24 three motions the Defence has until the 24th of September and not the 1st

25 of October.

1 As to the fourth motion, it will be joined with the motion to come

2 regarding the Heliodrom and the Defence can reply to both requests

3 together.

4 And now the final oral decision, and I have to hurry. Oral

5 decision amending the deadlines granted for response to the Prosecution's

6 request to add exhibits to the 65 ter list.

7 On the 26th of June, 2007, the Prosecution filed a motion

8 requesting leave from the Trial Chamber to add 28 exhibits to the 65 ter

9 list. By oral decision of the 4th of July, 2007, the Trial Chamber had

10 granted an extension of the deadline to the Defence teams to file replies

11 to that motion, deadline set at the 10th of September, 2007. Nonetheless,

12 given time constraints links to the fact that the witness whose name I

13 will not mention is to appear shortly I will not mention his name but

14 everyone must know who it is, the Trial Chamber wants to reverse the

15 decision or the ruling handed down on the 4th of July, 2007, and grants

16 the Defence a deadline until the 20th of August, 2007.

17 Well, we were obliged to shorten this deadline because there is

18 real urgency since this witness may appear shortly. So you have until the

19 20th of August for the matters relating to the 28 documents added to the

20 65 ter list.

21 And now we shall bring in the witness without further ado. I

22 would beg all of you not waste any time and scrupulously abide by the

23 timing that I indicated to you yesterday.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 WITNESS: ANTOON VAN DER GRINTEN [Resumed]

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Good afternoon,

2 Colonel. So the cross-examination shall be pursued. I wish you a warm

3 welcome. As you know, your appearance will come to an end. Can you hear

4 me now? Can you hear me?

5 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour. I can hear you now.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As I was saying, as

7 you know the hearing today will come to a end at 4.25. Of course, it's

8 even better if we can finish earlier.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Murphy:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. May I just check that you have both the Prosecution bundle and the

13 pink Stojic document bundle in front of you, please?

14 A. That's correct, sir.

15 Q. If my calculation is right, you spent a total of about 10 weeks in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right? Let me help you by saying that you

17 arrived in late May, you left in late August, and I think you were on

18 leave for about two weeks in July; is that right?

19 A. By my -- I think that I was one week away, not two weeks.

20 Q. 10 or 11 weeks then. During that time you told us you did not

21 learn to speak B/C/S apart from what I think a courtesy command of the

22 language; is that right?

23 A. Yes, some expressions, yep.

24 Q. Rather like my Dutch probably. You could say good morning and ask

25 for a cup of coffee and so on.

1 A. By the way, without any accent. You did it very well.

2 Q. As an ECMM monitor, sir, was it important to you to remain neutral

3 as between the warring parties?

4 A. Paramount importance, yes.

5 Q. Paramount importance. It was also important to you to obtain

6 information from whatever sources you could. Would that be true?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And I think you've testified on a previous occasion in the Tuta

9 and Stela case that you were in pretty much daily contact with SpaBat and

10 other organisations in the theatre?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. In fact, during your testimony in this trial, you -- you said that

13 you'd put together what you described as a network of a kind, which I

14 found an interesting phrase. That's a phrase that one uses in connection

15 with intelligence operations, isn't it?

16 A. That was not my intention to use it in the sense of intelligence.

17 Q. I want to go back to a subject that my colleague

18 Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic dealt with yesterday. I'm sorry to be repetitive

19 but it is important to what I have to ask you. You told us, I think, that

20 there was a pool of interpreters available for the use of the monitors in

21 Siroki Brijeg.

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And since you didn't speak the language, it was obviously

24 important for you to have access to an interpreter for all the meetings

25 that you attended.

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And M2, your unit, did not use interpreters from the pool but made

3 use of the services of this Muslim woman that we have discussed.

4 A. She was a part of the pool, but located in Mostar.

5 Q. I see. And in fact, during the meetings that you had, you used

6 this -- by you now I mean M2, you used this particular interpreter on an

7 exclusive basis, didn't you?

8 A. Especially when we went downtown Mostar, yeah, because in

9 Siroki Brijeg we -- we used, of course, the other ones.

10 Q. Yes. So all the meetings that you had in Mostar you would use

11 this particular interpreter.

12 A. Yeah. I think that we, in my time frame, used her always, yes.

13 Q. Yes. Your relationship with her was such that you would pick her

14 up from her house and then take her back after her work was finished; is

15 that right?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And it extended on at least one occasion that we know about to

18 visiting her home for the purpose of having coffee with members of her

19 family.

20 A. At least once.

21 Q. You also told us, I don't want to go back over this ground too

22 much, but using a Muslim interpreter was a deliberate choice.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And a point that did not come out yesterday but you mentioned in

25 your statement to the Prosecutor's office, you mentioned that this

1 interpreter's father had at some point been imprisoned by the HVO. Is

2 that right?

3 A. Well, I didn't mention that probably in my -- you mean two days

4 ago?

5 Q. No, sir. I mean in the written statement that you gave to the

6 Office of the Prosecutor.

7 A. Oh, the first time you mean.

8 Q. When you were interviewed by representatives of the Prosecutor's

9 office in August 2001. Do you remember?

10 A. Yep.

11 Q. You made a written witness statement?

12 A. Yep. Well, it is in that statement, it's clear that I --

13 Q. Let me just read you what you said. This is on page 2 of the

14 English version. You said -- I'm not going to read it all, but you said:

15 "She was studying English at the university. Her father had been

16 imprisoned by the HVO," and then you went on with other information.

17 A. Then it's correct, sir.

18 Q. All right. Now, in addition to being an interpreter, this lady

19 also was a source of information, wasn't she?

20 A. Yes, more or less.

21 Q. Well, you've testified, have you not, that she gave you

22 information many times. I think that was language you used in the Tuta

23 and Stela case.

24 A. Well, I explained that yesterday, I think, that in principle she

25 was only in -- translating when she was asked to do so. But at the same

1 time, she came sometimes with stories you heard in the evening or at

2 night, the next day in the morning, and gave us that kind of information.

3 That's correct.

4 Q. And that was important to you, because your unit did not move

5 around and work after dark?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And among the pieces of information, for example, that she gave

8 you on one occasion was the number of expelled Muslims. Five thousand;

9 right?

10 A. I don't recall if it came from her, but ...

11 Q. Well, I was referring to your -- your testimony in the -- in the

12 Tuta and Stela case at page 7396 of the transcript, and you had said that

13 the -- that it was hard to get an exact number of people who were arrested

14 or expelled, and you said that it came from a reliable source, and then

15 you added: "That was our interpreter at that time." I don't want to take

16 the time, but does that refresh your recollection?

17 A. I think this was at the -- at the 30th of June, is that correct?

18 Q. I think the 5th of July, but no matter. We'll move on. She also

19 gave you information, did she not, that suggested that -- that Tuta might

20 have an office in the Ministry of Defence building? That was another

21 piece of information she gave you?

22 A. Not only from her. We heard that, for instance, from our

23 predecessors.

24 Q. Yes. But you did get that from her as well, didn't you?

25 A. Well, she went there with us, so she was -- she was well aware of

1 that.

2 Q. In the Tuta and Stela case you described her as being

3 well-informed about events locally; would you agree?

4 A. On the west bank for that part of the -- her own environment, I

5 suppose so, yes.

6 Q. Now, the kind of information that she gave you was relating to

7 what we might call crimes or bad acts committed by the HVO against the

8 Muslim population; is that true?

9 A. When you refer to -- to let's say the notes and the reports, yes,

10 we mentioned here, that's correct.

11 Q. Did she ever during the time she worked with you provide any

12 information about any crimes committed against Bosnian Croats by Muslim

13 population or the army and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Well, we went there many times, and she was, on our request,

15 interviewing people about that kind of allegations as well.

16 Q. Well, I asked you a very precise question, Colonel. Did she ever

17 provide you information about crimes committed by Muslims or the armija

18 against Bosnian Croats?

19 A. I don't recall.

20 Q. As a member of the interpreters pool, was she paid a salary by

21 the -- by the ECMM?

22 A. I was not involved in -- in that kind of things, and I really

23 don't recall, but I guess that she got some -- some money for the work,

24 yeah.

25 Q. Well, the point of my question is this really: Was she paid

1 additional money for pieces of information that she supplied to you?

2 A. No, definitely not.

3 Q. Definitely not.

4 A. No.

5 Q. The information that she provided to you made its way into your

6 reports, didn't it?

7 A. When it was important and verified.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would it not be true to say, Colonel, that this lady, rather than

11 an interpreter, was in fact your agent, using the status of interpreter as

12 a cover? Do you understand what I mean by that?

13 A. Well, I guess what -- what you mean, but definitely not to --

14 Q. Definitely not.

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. And you said yesterday that you don't remember how she

17 was recruited. Is that right?

18 A. I can't recall that in detail, no, no. Unfortunately.

19 MR. MURPHY: May we move into private session just for a moment,

20 please, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could we move into

22 private session.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

23 MR. MURPHY:

24 Q. Did ever occur to you, Colonel, that using this lady as an

25 interpreter might be a problem in terms of your neutrality as between the

1 warring parties?

2 A. Only in the fact that sometimes we were threatened having her in

3 our car.

4 Q. All right. Now, you testified that SpaBat provided you with what

5 we might call a list of members of the HVO who were regarded as Hawks and

6 those who were regarded as Doves. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yep.

8 Q. And perhaps we could settle on a definition of exactly what a Hawk

9 means, because I think in the course of your testimony two days ago you --

10 you told us that Hawk meant a strong nationalist; is that right?

11 A. A hard-liner.

12 Q. A hard-liner.

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Whereas in the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor, you said

15 that a Hawk meant somebody who wanted to fight and was not inclined to

16 negotiate. Which of those definitions would you like to go with today?

17 A. That I said that before?

18 Q. You did.

19 A. Then I -- I refer to the last statement I made about that

20 definition.

21 Q. By the way, did SpaBat give you a list of Hawks on the Muslim

22 side?

23 A. Not that I know.

24 Q. No.

25 A. At that time.

1 Q. And you said that the list that SpaBat gave you corresponded with

2 your own assessment.

3 A. Only for a few.

4 Q. Yes. Including Mr. Stojic?

5 A. Yep.

6 Q. And that was based upon your meetings with Mr. Stojic, was it?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. Now, is this right, sir, that every word that you exchanged with

9 Mr. Stojic during those meetings was exchanged through the medium of your

10 interpreter?

11 A. That hard to say every word, because I think Mr. Stojic was able

12 to understand English as well.

13 Q. You're saying that Mr. Stojic understands English?

14 A. No, I supposed that he understands English as well. But you are

15 right by the remark that we used our interpreter in that kind of

16 situations.

17 Q. I want to be very clear about this. Did Mr. Stojic, on any

18 occasion, speak English to you during a meeting that you had with him?

19 A. No. Not that I remember.

20 Q. So he was speaking Croatian.

21 A. Yes. I think so, yeah.

22 Q. Right. Well, let me go back to the question I previously asked

23 you then. Is it right to say that the words that were exchanged between

24 Mr. Stojic and yourself were exchanged through the medium of the

25 interpreter?

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. And so it was based upon what the interpreter told you that

3 Mr. Stojic said that you formed the impression that he was a Hawk?

4 A. No, it's not only of course, as I said yesterday, exactly the text

5 what was -- what was translated, but it was also the performance and --

6 and the way of acting, of course. For me, because you ask my opinion

7 about this.

8 Q. Sir, as a senior officer in the Dutch army, have you had occasion

9 during your career to write reports on junior officers?

10 A. Yes, of course.

11 Q. And these reports would deal with their performance and character

12 as officers; right?

13 A. Normally.

14 Q. Normally. Because perhaps the promotion of an officer might

15 depend on what you said in a report, yes?

16 A. Could be.

17 Q. Yes. You'd want to have a lot more information than you had about

18 Mr. Stojic before informing a judgement on an officer's character,

19 wouldn't you?

20 A. I had.

21 Q. I'll move on. Do you recall, sir, that you had a meeting with

22 Mr. Stojic, I think you've testified about it, on the 16th of June, 1993,

23 in which you discussed with him, among other things, the shooting of the

24 Spanish officer, Lieutenant Aguilar?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And you subsequently wrote in your report, I don't need to refer

2 you to it but if you want to look it's P 02806, that Mr. Stojic had said

3 that the snipers in the blue bank building were under control. Do you

4 remember that?

5 A. Yep.

6 Q. Now, because of the rules of the Tribunal, I'm -- I'm going to --

7 even though I think this may be a little pointless, but I'm going to put

8 it to you that Mr. Stojic did not in fact say any such thing, but of

9 course you had no means of knowing that except what your interpreter told

10 you; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Because whatever he said, he said in Croatian. Yes?

13 A. I suppose so, yes.

14 Q. Is that a yes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Would you please look in the Stojic binder and find an

17 exhibit for me. This will be 2D 00116, please. It should be the third

18 document in the binder, I think. Do you have that?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Could you please tell me if you've ever seen that document before?

21 MR. MURPHY: While that's happening, Your Honour, may I just ask

22 how I'm doing for time?

23 THE WITNESS: No.

24 MR. MURPHY: Could I ask the registrar.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Normally, you were supposed to

1 go to 2.50, but oral decisions took me some time, about five to 10

2 minutes. So you'll have -- you have 10 more minutes. You have to five to

3 3.00.

4 MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

5 Q. You say you've not seen that document before; is that right, sir?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. All right. Let me nonetheless ask you whether you are aware of

8 any of the matters that are described, this is a letter dated the 14th of

9 June, 1993, from Mr. Stojic, addressed to the Spanish minister of defence

10 in Madrid, and it records the fact that that a joint investigation was

11 carried out into the shooting of the lieutenant by the -- by SpaBat and

12 also by officers of the Ministry of Defence. Were you familiar with the

13 fact that such an investigation had occurred?

14 A. Well, we knew that there were more than one investigations

15 ongoing. So this probably is one of them.

16 Q. If you would -- if you would look at the second page of this

17 document in the English version. I can't -- because of lack of time I

18 can't go through all the findings, but the Trial Chamber will be able to

19 read them, but there's a paragraph beginning on the second page, "Based on

20 everything we conclude." Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it says that: "We conclude that the UNPROFOR vehicle was shot

23 from the Muslim military positions at the Bristol Hotel."

24 First of all, were you aware that the ABiH did in fact have a

25 position situated in the Bristol Hotel?

1 A. We were aware that it was on -- on the west line, huh? What you

2 were talking about.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. We were aware of that, yeah.

5 Q. Were you aware that a finding had been made in this inquiry that

6 shot could have come from that position in the Bristol Hotel? Have you

7 heard that before today?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. Would you also look at I think what should be the next

10 document 2D 00117. Yes. Next document in there, please.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. And this is a very similar document, and the only question that I

13 want to ask you about this is whether you may have seen this document

14 before. It's signed by Mr. Lukic, one of Mr. Stojic's assistants. It

15 deals with broadly the same facts.

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. Referring to your own testimony in this trial about

18 the -- the shooting of the Spanish lieutenant, I think it's possible that

19 the -- the Trial Chamber may -- may have been given the impression, I'm

20 referring now to page 47 of the transcript of the 10th of July, line 25,

21 may have been given the impression that you were actually present for this

22 event, but that's not the case, is it?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. You heard about it later.

25 A. Yep.

1 Q. And you -- you gave the Trial Chamber your opinion about where the

2 shot may have come from, but just to make this absolutely clear, this was

3 based upon information that was provided to you.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And I think you made some kind of comparison, at least in your own

6 mind, between that event and an event that had occurred when your vehicle

7 was in fact fired upon in the same general area?

8 A. Yeah, but was not the same spot.

9 Q. Not the same spot, no. If you would look, please, at -- this will

10 be in the Prosecution binder, Exhibit number P 02635. In the Prosecution

11 binder. 02635. Tell me when you've got it, please.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This is a daily report from team M2, dated the 4th of June, 1993;

14 is that right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And if you look at item 8, this is the second page in the English

17 version, it records that your car was fired at at 1435 hours, and -- you

18 see that?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. And then a few further lines down you say: "We do not know who

21 shot us (HVO or armija) because in this area both parts are mixed. We

22 guess, we guess from the direction of the impact that the sniper was in

23 one building belonging to the HVO." Is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's true.

25 Q. That was the language you use.

1 A. Yes, that is the story.

2 Q. So we can conclude from that you were not able to ascertain with

3 any degree of certainty where the shot came from?

4 A. In this case, specific case, but it was not the same spot, as I

5 said.

6 MR. MURPHY: If I may just have a moment, Your Honour.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Colonel.

9 Your Honour, that concludes my cross-examination.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

11 Mr. Praljak, you have 35 minutes, and at 3.30, I will turn the

12 mike off because I will need to give the floor to Ms. Alaburic. But you

13 have the floor now for 35 minutes.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel. I don't have much time,

17 so I'll ask you to be militarily precise and let's look at Prosecution

18 document first, 02634 is the number. P 0264. And it is the photograph of

19 your car. You can see a large hole above the window here. Is that hole

20 on the window a hole caused by a bullet as well?

21 MR. STRINGER: I'm sorry, could we just get that exhibit number

22 again? I don't think we got it in the English channel.

23 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] P 02634. P 02634. It is

24 the photograph of the car.

25 Q. Have you got it, Witness?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We see something on the window here. Is that a hit?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What about the thing we see up above the right-hand corner of the

5 window. Is that a hit?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Well, where was the car hit then?

8 A. I'm sorry, then I misunderstood you. On the two windows that are

9 not hits. The hit is just in between, on the right shelf of the car. In

10 front, just in front of the photograph. Between the two windows. That is

11 the hit.

12 Q. On the left-hand side, you mean, the small black dot between the

13 two windows. Is that it? On the back of the car. Could you indicate it

14 for us, please, using your pencil? On the monitor, use your pencil and

15 point to the place where the car was hit.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. So that's where it was hit. Thank you. When you got out of the

18 vehicle did you happen to look at the angle that the hit came from?

19 Because obviously the hole isn't a regular shape. In fact, it's difficult

20 to discern that it is a hole at all. But let's move on.

21 Look at 2635. That's the next page in the document. And you talk

22 about this event, and you say that you were on the Old Bridge, on Tito --

23 on the Tito Bridge. Is that right? Were you on the Tito Bridge?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, do you need an IC

25 number for this?

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... will become

4 Exhibit IC 629.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So you were on the Tito Bridge when this happened; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes. That's correct.

9 Q. And you were moving from the west towards the east; right? From

10 the area under HVO control towards the area under BH army control; is that

11 correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Now please take a look at my documents document 3D 00746. 3D

14 00746 is the document number.

15 Do you agree with me when I say that this photograph was taken

16 from the Tito Bridge and looking west? You see Hotel Bristol and the

17 street ahead; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. From this point, if you were there either to the left or to the

20 right, can you see the secondary school or the glass bank? Can you see

21 that from this spot here?

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry if I intervene. It must be clarified

23 that the picture is actually not taken from a spot on the bridge but from

24 quite -- it's difficult to estimate because one does not know the focus,

25 but one quite a distance from the bridge. One sees the full bridge from

1 beginning to end on the picture.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour

3 Judge Trechsel. This is on -- in the middle of the bridge, exactly in the

4 middle of the bridge, to the left, which would give a better view of the

5 glass bank because it is located on the right. But I'm going to show a

6 whole set of photographs to show you that that is indeed the case, and I

7 think the Judges will be able to take a Ph.D. on the subject of bridges

8 and vantage points.

9 Q. So this is facing west; right?

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I correct myself. I was looking at the next

11 picture.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have been looking at the next picture, and that

14 was my error, and I apologise.

15 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Well, the witness gave an

16 affirmative answer and said that that was indeed from the position of the

17 Tito Bridge looking westward.

18 Q. Now, Witness, look at the next photograph, please, which moves

19 towards the east and shows the bridge in full view. 3D 00746. And the

20 photograph number is 526, 0526.

21 So is this the right photograph? You can see the Tito Bridge and

22 facing HVO positions. Right, Witness? Just turn the page, sir. The next

23 page. You can look at my set of photographs. 526 is the number. That's

24 it there. You have it on the screen. Is that right? The Bristol Hotel?

25 The Tito Bridge? Do you recognise this, Witness?

1 A. Yes, but it's definitely not taken on the 4th of June.

2 Q. No. No. It was taken a while ago, but nothing has changed, and

3 Their Honours had these photographs.

4 Now take a look at the next photograph in this series. Let's move

5 on if we may. Taken further back.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This photograph is important.

7 Colonel, on this photograph that is in front of our screen, with

8 the pen could you fell us what direction the car was going, your car was

9 going?

10 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. No, Witness, you were moving in the opposite direction. From the

13 west to the east. So your direction isn't towards the HVO positions as

14 you've just indicated but the opposite, at least according to your

15 statement, because had you been moving in that direction then the bullet

16 certainly would have come from the BH army side, whereas here we're still

17 debating the point, and we're going to clarify it. So think about it some

18 more. You were moving towards us like the car with the lights switched

19 on, headlights switched on, regardless of where you were on the bridge.

20 That was the direction you were moving in, wasn't it?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, this is why I asked

22 that you give us the direction the car was going. This is absolutely

23 essential.

24 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if I could just make a suggestion

25 that perhaps assists the witness so it can move faster. Perhaps he could

1 be asked whether he recognises the large hill feature in the background,

2 what that is, and whether that helps him orientate which side of the river

3 he's looking across to.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What exactly is this hill in the

5 back? Do you recognise it?

6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That is Hum. The hill called Hum.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

8 Q. No, Witness, that is not Hum hill. It's the road you took towards

9 Siroki Brijeg. Hum hill is to the left, and we've already seen that on

10 the maps quite a way to the left, and you can't see it on this photograph.

11 To be quite frank, I'm a little surprised, because you're a professional

12 soldier.

13 Now, the road you can see up in the hill is the road leading to

14 Siroki Brijeg, which you passed dozens of times. And you also passed

15 along this road here dozens of times across the Defence lines on both

16 sides.

17 But if you did move towards us, towards the people there, then

18 that direction would be from the HVO positions moving towards the BH army

19 positions. That's what you said. That's how you described it.

20 Otherwise, the entire problem of where you were hit and how you were hit

21 is senseless.

22 A. Sir, let me shortly comment on that. I think it has nothing to do

23 with my profession. It has to do with the fact that it's 14 years ago.

24 So you confront me with this photograph, and it takes some time to make

25 some orientation, because it's 14 years ago, and I think it's fair to take

1 that in consideration.

2 Q. Very well. I have nothing against that. Do you recognise the

3 Bristol Hotel on the right?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. Do you recognise the road up there moving towards Spanish Square?

6 The square was named Spanish Square because of the death of the Spanish

7 officer. So you were moving from Spanish Square, and you were hit while

8 on the bridge, from top to bottom, going from top to bottom. Can you

9 confirm that? If you can, then draw an arrow for the direction you were

10 moving in and your position on the bridge.

11 A. Well, I have difficulties with this picture. Let's make that

12 clear, sir. And the statement I made is also clear. That means that my

13 interpretation here of the picture is wrong, then it is the other way

14 around than what I just noted here on the screen with the pen. I don't

15 have any problem to explain you that in this way.

16 Q. Very well. Now, Colonel, would you draw in after everything that

17 you have said and giving thought to you -- to it, what was your direction,

18 the direction in which you moved? Colonel, why don't you take a look at

19 the next photograph. It might be easier for you. Let's take a look at

20 the following photograph, 551. The next one in the file. The number is

21 551. And on the right-hand side you can see something that used to be the

22 Neretva Hotel, which has not been reconstructed. It's still in ruins.

23 Does that make the situation of this Musala square, the Tito Bridge, on

24 the right the Neretva Hotel, on the right the Bristol Hotel, does this

25 make it any clearer? Can you find your bearings better?

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Can you draw in the direction you moved in now?

3 A. It was -- okay. [Marks]

4 Q. Okay. May I have an IC number for the photograph? No, it has a

5 number. Right. It has a number. We don't need an IC number. Yes, it

6 does I'm told. An IC number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this picture will become IC 630.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Another question: Witness, did you ever stand in this spot and,

10 if so, can you see either the secondary school building or the glass bank

11 from here? Because you said that it was possible that your vehicle might

12 have been shot at from those two positions. So can you see the glass bank

13 or the gymnasium, the secondary school building?

14 A. I note -- I don't know the spot where this photograph was taken,

15 but I don't see it on this photograph.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now let's take a look at Exhibit 3D 00844.

17 3D 00844. That's right. 3D 00844. And it is the second photograph

18 with the number 229.

19 Take a look at that photograph, and do you agree with me when I

20 say that the photograph was taken from Spanish Square? You can see the

21 Spanish Square itself. And then the street leading downwards leads

22 towards Tito's Bridge, the Tito Bridge. Is that correct to the best of

23 your recollections?

24 A. I don't know if I have the right picture here on my screen.

25 Q. Yes, you do. This is Spanish Square. Do you agree that to the

1 best of your knowledge the buildings on the right and on the left, is that

2 where the BH army had its positions? Is this the Bulevar in front? And

3 the buildings on the left and right, were they all under BH army control,

4 to the best of your knowledge?

5 A. Yeah. That's hard to say when I look to this picture what was

6 taken maybe recently. I even never heard of the Spanish Square, so -- it

7 was -- it was probably easier for me to recognise and give answers on your

8 questions when you provide me with photographs from -- from that specific

9 time.

10 Q. The building on the left, this dilapidated building, damaged

11 building, it hasn't changed since then. Buildings can be renovated, but

12 this square, regardless of its name, looked empty in your time as well,

13 and this building was in the same condition. Do you remember passing by

14 and going down towards Tito's bridge?

15 A. Well, as I said, it's quite difficult for me now to give that kind

16 of answers when I see this picture, because the environment is definitely

17 changed.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. Would you please look at this

19 chessboard. Let's remember it, and then we'll move on to photograph 232.

20 3D 00844, and the photograph is 232.

21 Is this the glass bank you remember?

22 A. Yes. It looks the same still.

23 Q. If we saw that chessboard a little while ago, if you stand in the

24 spot from which you can look towards Tito's bridge, is the glass bank far

25 right? It's to the left of the chessboard. So is it to the left at least

1 a hundred or a hundred and fifty metres away to the left?

2 You can look at the previous photograph and you will see the

3 chessboard. Then you can look at the position of the glass bank. Is it

4 about a hundred to a hundred and fifty metres to the left? Is this

5 correct to the best of your knowledge?

6 A. I try to orientate it, and I think it's to the right. I mean the

7 first picture.

8 Q. Very well. Could I have an IC number for both these documents,

9 229 and 232?

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but the witness did not

11 write or note anything on 844.

12 Colonel, on the picture 844 where you see the glass building,

13 could you note an X so that we know that that's the glass building that

14 you recognised on that picture?

15 THE WITNESS: In the picture on the screen, Your Honour?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: The building on the right, that's what we called the

18 blue bank building. I can point it out by the pen.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you note blue bank.

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, let's give it an IC

22 number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this photo will become Exhibit IC

24 631.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Witness, now please look at 3D 01059. 3D 01059. That's the next

2 photograph. And my question is you never climbed up onto the first or

3 second floor of that bank? You never saw the view from that bank; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Myself, no.

6 Q. Well, look then at photograph 3D 01059. This photograph was taken

7 from the glass bank.

8 Can you indicate, because you know where the mosque was, where the

9 ruined buildings, were, can you indicate where Tito's bridge would be

10 here. You see the street leading from the square towards the east. Where

11 would Tito's bridge be in this photograph? And tell me, first of all,

12 assuming that this bank was actually taken from the glass bank, and we

13 have just seen the position of the bank, can one see Tito's bridge on this

14 photograph?

15 A. Not on this photograph, because --

16 Q. Can you put an arrow to indicate where it should be?

17 A. Somewhere here, I think, but once again with the new buildings

18 it's hard to see for me.

19 Q. Witness, regardless of the renovated buildings, can you tell us

20 were the buildings there, they were damaged but not completely destroyed.

21 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm going to object at

22 this point. I think it's unfair to ask the witness to guess at the

23 position of the Tito Bridge on the basis of a photograph that clearly has

24 reconstruction evident in it, and it's really not helpful.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What I observe is

1 that if the picture is taken from the blue bank building, we don't see the

2 Tito Bridge, and it's impossible for a sniper to hit a vehicle that would

3 be driving along Tito bridge from this standpoint except if the white

4 building that we see behind the two buildings that are in ruins did not

5 exist at the time. If, at the time, that building did not exist, perhaps,

6 but as we see it now it is impossible to see Tito Bridge. Please proceed,

7 Mr. Praljak.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: While -- if you allow just in addition to what

9 the President just said, we have seen on the previous picture that this

10 blue bank building is a very big building. It's very large, very high.

11 It's not very deep but it's large and high. And we do not, of course,

12 know from which spot of the building the picture is taken.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, I hope that your

14 photographer took the picture from the highest point possible within the

15 building.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This

17 photograph was taken from the highest point of this building. And even

18 had the building had 20 more floors, I assert that even then one would not

19 have been able to see Tito's bridge from it. But unfortunately because

20 I'm short of time I cannot go into further detail in this respect.

21 Could the witness now please be shown -- can this photograph be

22 given an IC number, please.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An IC number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The document will become IC 632, Your Honours.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I would like to give the

1 witness a blank piece of paper for him to sketch a map, but since we don't

2 have time could the usher take a map to the witness. And if Your Honours

3 ever visit Mostar again in the course of these proceedings, you will be

4 able to stand on Tito's bridge and see for yourselves what can be seen

5 from it.

6 Could this be put on the ELMO, please.

7 MR. STRINGER: Could we have an exhibit number for this exhibit,

8 this document?

9 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I had a blank map, and I

10 wanted the witness to inscribe everything in it, but as time is short I

11 won't do that.

12 Q. Witness, number 1. Can you see number 1 up here? Is this

13 something that used to be called the surgical hospital, Kirurgija?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is an exhibit that has

15 already been admitted through another witness. 3D 01060, I believe.

16 MR. STRINGER: Do I have this in the materials that have been

17 provided by the accused? Is this in the papers that have come to us?

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes, it's in the binder. 3D

19 01060. 3D 01060.

20 Q. Witness --

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry. I'm waiting for the mike. Yes. To get

22 this clear, the map underneath is the same but the one we have now on the

23 ELMO has marks which 3D 01060 has not. So it is not really the same

24 document. It is the a different document on the same basis.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

1 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Something wrong with my mike.

2 General Praljak said that he had a blank map which he wanted to show to

3 the witness, but in order to save time he has put in the positions

4 himself. We were unable to photocopy this for everyone because we hadn't

5 prepared it beforehand, so that now this map with the marks put in by the

6 general is being put on the ELMO. The map itself is identical. It's the

7 same map of Mostar, which has already been admitted into evidence.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I fully understand that.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, on the basis of that I object to

10 this procedure. Certainly counsel wouldn't be allowed to make their own

11 markings and offer evidence in this way, and I think it's fairer for the

12 witness if he's to be given a map, give him a blank map and ask him if

13 he's able to note locations, rather than confirming those suggested to him

14 14 years later.

15 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have already worked

16 in this same way with maps of Mostar and we are saving time this way.

17 This is a map of Mostar.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, would you say what

19 is represented by numbers 1 through 9 so we can go very quickly?

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's very

21 simple, because 14 years have elapsed and my time is running out. I've

22 been given 10 minutes by Ms. Alaburic. If I use the witness to make these

23 markings, I will need an hour. If Your Honours give me an hour, I can ask

24 the witness.

25 Q. But, Witness, please, look at number 1, number 1 on the map. Is

1 this what we used to call Kirurgija, the surgical ward, which was

2 mentioned here as place where everybody was supposed to receive treatment?

3 Is it true that this is the surgical ward, Kirurgija?

4 A. May I first clarify, sir, that we used a car in the combat zone

5 and not a helicopter. So that is the first problem now. I am used to use

6 a map what is oriented with a sign in the military profession to the

7 north. I can't find it here. So let's first orientate the map, please.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Might I make a suggestion, Mr. President? We could

9 take a break at this point, give the gentleman an opportunity to look at

10 the blank map that Mr. Praljak had, and then -- which would have the

11 orientation, and this would give -- so we could save some time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the best is to

13 take a short break --

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like

15 to give the witness another which is even clearer than this one so that he

16 can take a look at this one, too, because the witness has established that

17 that hospital could not be used for the purpose proposed by Mr. Bagaric

18 because of the vicinity of the line. So I have to ask whether this

19 hospital operated all the time, whether the operations were carried out

20 there all the time, how far away the line was. This is very important.

21 So I'm asking for a little additional time, not a lot, because I've lost a

22 lot of time trying to jog the witness's memory.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll take the

24 traditional break but just 15 minutes, and that will give the witness time

25 to study the maps.

1 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 3.49 p.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing may resume.

4 Mr. Praljak, please be extremely quick.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, under number 1, you have the Kirurgija, or surgery ward,

7 or as you refer to it as the old hospital. Were you ever in the hospital

8 yourself?

9 A. Not in, but we were visit it by car.

10 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm sorry but this

11 implies that the witness has identified number 1 as that specific

12 location, the war hospital, and I want -- I think the record needs to be

13 clear about what the witness has identified versus what the accused is

14 suggesting to him.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Colonel, if number 1

16 is the war hospital, would you please specify that you have identified as

17 such?

18 THE WITNESS: By my knowledge the war hospital, and it is better

19 shown on the aerial picture I have here in front, is on the drawn map in

20 front of this number 2 and not number 1.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I seem to have lost -- well, I haven't got the map on the screen.

23 Could you put the large map back on the ELMO, please. That's right.

24 Let's see it on the ELMO.

25 Now, number 1. Do you identify number 1 as being something called

1 the new hospital in Mostar?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Right. Now, did you ever go inside that hospital?

4 A. The new hospital, yeah, several times.

5 Q. Right. Did you ever ask how the hospital was financed?

6 A. I don't think so.

7 Q. Right. Did you ever ask what the ethnic composition of the

8 doctors in the hospital was?

9 A. Before the war or during the conflict, mixed.

10 Q. During the conflict, while you were there.

11 A. Mixed.

12 Q. So the nationalists had a mixed composition. Now, number 2. Were

13 you ever at spot number 2, the hospital which is otherwise referred to as

14 Kirurgija? Were you ever there? Did you ever go inside?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know that that hospital worked as a surgical ward

17 throughout the war and that the surgical team was led by Dr. Rebac?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know what number 3 is, that it was something called the old

20 hospital and that it worked, it was operational? Did you know that?

21 A. We saw it, but we were never invited to look how it worked, number

22 2 nor number 3.

23 Q. Did you ask to go inside? Did anybody stop you go inside and

24 looking around?

25 A. Definitely, we asked to see the location when it was offered for

1 the first time, but it never happened.

2 Q. Do you know that number 3 was the ear, nose, and mouth, and the

3 psychiatric ward as well, where there were psychiatric patients throughout

4 the war?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know that number 4 was the clinic in Liska street? Did you

7 know that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. The dispensary.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Can you explain to the Court why you were able to enter the new

12 hospital whereas somebody would prevent you from looking at numbers 2, 3,

13 and 4? So what would the reason be for you not being allowed to look at

14 those others?

15 A. Probably because the HVO officials, authorities, didn't like us to

16 go there. The other places, I mean.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, you are speculating here; is that

18 correct? You said probably because. This is a speculation of yours?

19 THE WITNESS: Well, it has to do with remembrance, Your Honour,

20 because for sure when -- when the proposal was done, we ask, "Okay, let's

21 go there and show us the place what you are talking about," but that never

22 happened. The only thing what we did was we -- we drove there and had a

23 look how it was situated.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Sir, can you give me the name of the person in the HVO, the

1 official, the time and place, who told you that you couldn't go into the

2 hospital? When was that? Who told you that and where?

3 A. Sir, as I said, it was not -- never offered to us. And when it

4 was not offered to us, then it was also not possible for us.

5 Q. Very well. I don't really understand your answer, but never mind.

6 Now, an IC number, please, for this map.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, for the map with

8 numbers 1 through 6, could we have a number?

9 THE REGISTRAR: It will become Exhibit IC 633, Your Honours.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Now place the small map on the overhead projector for us to have a

12 look at, the one you had previously. We don't need to -- well, we know

13 that number 1 is the Kirurgija. We know that number 2 is the old

14 hospital. All that has been added here is number 4, the health centre.

15 Now, do you know that that was the health centre at number 4 and

16 that it worked throughout the conflict and that it took in patients from

17 the primary health care system? Were you aware of that?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Under number 5 is the position of the glass bank. Do you see

20 number 5, Witness?

21 A. I see number 5, yes.

22 Q. Is that the position of the glass bank?

23 A. Well, that's hard to see. Maybe it's -- it's better on the aerial

24 picture.

25 Q. What about number 6? Is that the gymnasium or secondary school?

1 And you passed by that way frequently. Number 6, the secondary school;

2 right?

3 A. That could be.

4 Q. And is number 7 Tito's bridge?

5 A. Number?

6 Q. Seven.

7 A. It is.

8 Q. And we have the directions from which the bullet might have come

9 from the secondary school and glass bank. Now, let's first of all deal

10 with the separation line between the HVO and BH army. Is that the right

11 separation line while you were there, the red line, thick red line passing

12 across the Bulevar?

13 A. It's not complete in my knowledge, but it is, as I very well

14 remember, correct on your aerial photograph. I mean an important part

15 here is not marked on your -- on your sketch.

16 Q. Would you mark it then?

17 A. Especially here.

18 Q. Did the HVO trench go behind the secondary school, that is to say

19 more westerly -- in a more westerly direction?

20 A. I think it was this way.

21 Q. To the best of your recollections, the HVO trench, did it pass

22 behind the secondary school, behind the glass building, or in front of the

23 secondary school building and the glass bank building as far as you

24 remember?

25 MR. STRINGER: I object, Mr. President. It's irrelevant.

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Well, it's not irrelevant as

2 far as we're concerned, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It's important to know

4 where the separation line between the warring parties was. First of all,

5 to know where the blue bank building was, and also to know where the Tito

6 Bridge was, to know where the shots were fired from.

7 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I think -- I just want to say that

8 we are now officially eating into the time that had been allotted for

9 redirect examination for the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed. So you need to

11 come to an end, Mr. Praljak. Ask your question.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you know that the HVO trench went behind the secondary school

14 building or in front of it, or behind the glass building or in front of

15 it? Which way did the HVO trench stretch, behind or in front? To the

16 west of these two buildings or to the east of these two buildings?

17 A. As I know, to the east.

18 Q. Right. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Stringer, how

20 much time would you need for redirect?

21 MR. STRINGER: We're going until 25 minutes after the hour,

22 Mr. President?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

24 MR. STRINGER: I think I need 20 minutes of that time.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So Mrs. Alaburic,

1 are you willing to relinquish the five minutes that remain to Mr. Praljak?

2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll let

3 General Praljak complete his cross-examination, and if there are two

4 minutes left over, then I shall use them if I may.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May I have an IC number for

6 the map, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: This map will become Exhibit IC 634, Your Honours.

8 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May I have 3D 00703 next,

9 please. 3D 00703.

10 Your Honour, it's a book, a protocol from the hospital. I have it

11 here. You have photocopies of it. It's from the new hospital, and it

12 relates to the period when the gentleman was there. So I'd like him to

13 look at 3D 00703.

14 MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] The copy of the hospital book has a

15 different 3D number. I'd just like to --

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 1062. And then the table is

17 00703. Could the witness take a look at the table 3D 7 -- 3D 00703.

18 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sir, but I don't have it in front of me. The

19 table, yeah? The smaller one.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. If you look at the ethnic composition of the patients, you will

22 see that there is Bosniak, Bosniak, Bosniak, and so on. Now, my question

23 is this: When you went to the hospital while you were there, did you ever

24 talk to the patients?

25 A. I remember that we were guided once in the hospital and saw the

1 patients.

2 Q. Did you inquire about the national composition of the people

3 coming to the hospital for treatment, that is to say how many patients

4 that the hospital admitted were people that said they were Bosniaks or

5 Croats, that gave their ethnicity as being such? Did you look at the

6 protocol to see whether the nationalists make differences and

7 differentiate between the various ethnic groups?

8 A. We had knowledge that the specialists were mixed and the patients

9 were mixed as well.

10 Q. Were 70 per cent of the specialists Bosniaks as you noted?

11 A. Well, I don't -- I don't recall percentages.

12 Q. And I'm referring to P 0229 of your report. And my last question

13 is this: If it is true and correct what it says here in the table that

14 there were Bosniaks and they were coming in from the west bank, because

15 after the 9th of May the -- 1993, the conflict was already underway, how

16 come that there were so many Bosniaks who could come to the hospital if,

17 according to what we have heard, the HVO incarcerated them all or expelled

18 them? Can you explain this fact, that you had such a large number of

19 Bosniaks just in one hospital without primary health care if they had

20 indeed been incarcerated and expelled? Did you deal with that kind of

21 subject? Did you look into it?

22 A. No, sir. I can't answer this.

23 Q. You didn't apply the random sample method in your investigations,

24 did you?

25 A. I don't know. When you explain me what it means, then probably I

1 can give an answer.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This brings your

3 examination -- cross-examination to an end, General Praljak.

4 Unfortunately, you've run out of time.

5 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just want to

6 say how much I regret the fact that I cannot clarify more what a

7 nationalist is by definition, what it means and how much the witness knows

8 about the psychology of warfare, sociology, how certain elements are

9 investigated and studied and so on and so forth.

10 But anyway, thank you, Witness.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're beginning to make a

12 speech. Your role is simply to question the witness.

13 Now I will give the floor again to the Prosecution for

14 re-examination.

15 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Stringer:

17 Q. Colonel, I want to talk to you just for a few minutes about the

18 hospital, because you were asked about that a lot in a number of the

19 cross-examinations, and I want to ask you to look at one of the -- the

20 exhibits of the Stojic team, 2D 123.

21 MR. STRINGER: If that could be placed in front of the witness,

22 please. 2D 00123.

23 Q. This is an exhibit that you were shown during your

24 cross-examination; do you recall it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And this is a letter originating from a gentleman who is with the

2 chief of the medical -- main medical staff of HZ HB; do you see that?

3 A. Yep.

4 Q. Now, in this letter, and I think you testified and even written

5 about this yourself in your own reports, indicating that "We have no

6 volunteers, neither among Muslims nor Croat personnel," and that relates

7 to the volunteers possibly going and exchanging positions with those on

8 the east side; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Okay. And then he's saying: "So far we have better conditions

11 providing care for the wounded population and soldiers." And would you

12 agree with that assessment, that the west-side hospital did in fact have

13 better conditions and facilities?

14 A. The west bank hospital had better conditions, yes.

15 Q. And then he suggests: "As we did so many times before that you

16 send your wounded to the HVO war hospitals where they will have completely

17 identical treatment."

18 Now, the date of this letter is the 11th of June in which they're

19 offering to have people come from the west side to the east side; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Now, let me take you back to the report you made on that same day,

23 which is in the Prosecution binder a the P 2731.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. This is your report actually of the following day, one day later,

1 on the 12th of June, 1993; correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. This is the report of the incident in which the Spanish

4 lieutenant, Aguilar was killed; is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Now, in light of the fact of this incident and in general the

7 security situation in Mostar, what was the likelihood of and the reality

8 of bringing prisoners and other supplies, for example -- well, bringing --

9 I'm sorry, not prisoners. How feasible and realistic was it to think that

10 you could have actually been able to bring patients and wounded out from

11 the east side to the west side on the 11th of June or even on the 12th of

12 June?

13 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission. I

14 consider that the Prosecutor is now asking the witness to speculate. The

15 witness said in his testimony that SpaBat wrote in his report -- wrote

16 his -- its report and asked for agreement, and the witness said that after

17 this date, too, the witness and his team transported medicines to the

18 other side. So what the Prosecutor is asking to do now is to speculate,

19 pure speculation. I want to remind you we had testimony of that before --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is not of that

21 opinion at all.

22 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. So again, witness, the question is: In your view, based on your

24 presence there and involvement, how feasible and realistic was it to think

25 that, in fact, the HVO proposal was something that could be achieved?

1 A. Sir, as a direct result of the killing of the Spanish lieutenant,

2 UNPROFOR, and especially SpaBat, was very reluctant and actually refusing

3 in the beginning to deal with any transport or escort through the front

4 line. That was a direct result of this happening.

5 Q. All right. So as a result, then, how seriously did you consider

6 these HVO proposals on exchange?

7 A. Well, of course we actually noted the official point of view, but

8 we doubted at that time that it was feasible.

9 Q. And in fact was --

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really have to object.

11 All I want is to indicate that the witness in his report, P 02271, said

12 that he received the letter and the report of 1620. The incident with the

13 Spanish soldier occurred at 1930 hours. So it is quite obvious that this

14 proposal by the HVO was made before the incident took place so everything

15 the witness is now saying on the Prosecutor's asking the witness is quite

16 obviously speculation that, the writer of the document knew that this was

17 impossible even before the incident in question.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

19 continues] ... In light of this observation.

20 MR. STRINGER:

21 Q. Witness, very quickly the next -- I'm going to ask the usher to

22 hand you a sleeve, a plastic sleeve. It's got some documents in it.

23 P 2935. And I'm -- I'm sorry, 2941. And this relates to the note about

24 which you testified both on direct and cross-examination.

25 Can you look at the contents of that sleeve and tell us whether

1 this refreshes your recollection about the format of the note as, you

2 know, the original note that you received and the translation that your

3 interpreter made?

4 A. Yeah. I think that, Your Honour, yesterday --

5 MR. MURPHY: Sorry, could we see what the witness is looking at,

6 Your Honour? Perhaps it could be placed on the ELMO, please.

7 MR. STRINGER: Yes, I apologise. As I indicated yesterday,

8 Mr. President, we sent someone to the vault to pull the original note just

9 so that it could be presented before the Trial Chamber and the witness be

10 allowed to comment on it.

11 THE WITNESS: What you see here is the original note and on the

12 back side the translation of our interpreter. The original note is in --

13 in red colour, and she -- sorry. The translation is in the red colour,

14 and original note, what you see here, is in blue.

15 MR. STRINGER: Okay, for the record I misspoke twice. It is in

16 fact Exhibit P 2935.

17 Q. So is that, in fact, the note that you received on the 24th of

18 June as indicated?

19 A. This is the original note, yes.

20 Q. Now, Witness, you were --

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] May we see the original

22 note?

23 MR. STRINGER: I have no objection, Your Honour, if it to be

24 passed around.

25 Q. Witness, you were asked by a number of the -- counsel for a number

1 of the accused about the positions or the official titles that you

2 believed they held during the course of your dealings with them. Do you

3 recall that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And in particular, you were asked about your beliefs as to

6 the specific position that Mr. Pusic held. Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And I believe your testimony, as indicated in the reports, was

9 that you had him as a -- the deputy chief of the HVO military police; is

10 that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. All right. Now, that belief, tell us where did that come from?

13 What was that based on?

14 A. That was based on our --

15 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I object. Asked and

16 answers several times during the direct and cross-examination. The

17 witness said that he made his conclusions on the basis of the fact that

18 Mr. Pusic was introduced to him at that way. When the question was asked

19 who introduced him, he said he didn't remember the details, but all he --

20 the witness knows is that's how he was introduced to him.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Stringer, this is what

22 he said up until now. So what is your additional question adding?

23 Mr. Ibrisimovic?

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] All I want to say,

25 Mr. President, and I have said this several times, in paragraph -- I've

1 written about it in paragraph 13. I don't know why we're discussing the

2 topic. He said he was -- held a high position in the military police.

3 Whether he was deputy or not is a different matter, and we've dealt with

4 that.

5 MR. STRINGER: I could ask another question, Mr. President.

6 Q. You indicated earlier in your testimony that the topics you

7 discussed with Mr. Pusic, at least those related to -- reflected in your

8 reports, related to the Heliodrom and then also the expulsion of Muslim --

9 or Muslim citizens from East [sic] Mostar. Do you recall that?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. All right. Now, based on your understanding of his position,

12 whatever it was, were those issues that he indicated he was in a position

13 to discuss with you?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. Did he ever indicate that those topics were not within his area of

16 responsibility?

17 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but on page

18 51, line 11, it says that -- it says the expulsion of Muslims from East

19 Mostar. I think that should be corrected. I think my learned friend made

20 a slip there.

21 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Counsel. I appreciate your

22 intervention.

23 Q. So the question again was did he ever indicate to you that he was

24 not in a position or did not have the confidence to discuss those issues

25 with you?

1 A. No, he did.

2 Q. Okay. And again, did -- were you able to gain access and move

3 around inside the Heliodrom based on the backing or the authorisation that

4 he provided to you?

5 A. We needed his approval.

6 Q. Now, the next --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic.

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this isn't

9 redirect. It's examination-in-chief again.

10 MR. STRINGER: Well --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Stringer, what are you

12 adding?

13 MR. STRINGER: Let me -- let me take the witness. I have one more

14 question about Mr. -- on this subject or this -- this accused,

15 Mr. President. I'll move to --

16 Q. One of the exhibits that you were shown, Colonel, during the

17 cross-examination, and that is Exhibit P 2496. It's in the Prosecution

18 binder, 2496.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. This was an ECMM report not made by your team but one of the other

21 teams; is that correct?

22 A. By the Mostar team but the previous one.

23 Q. Okay. And I want to take you to the third page of that. And in

24 the top paragraph it says that: "The agreement to allow the ICRC proposed

25 visits has been signed by Pasalic for the armija. Pusic for the HVO said

1 he was not authorised to sign, but an arrangement had been made for Coric,

2 minister for police, to do so." Do you see that?

3 A. I see.

4 Q. Now, despite the spelling do you have an indication or a belief as

5 to who the Coric is that's being referred to there?

6 A. I think that the uniform should be an "O".

7 Q. I'm sorry?

8 A. I think it's misspelled.

9 Q. Who is that a reference to?

10 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the speaker.

12 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I seem to be having a

13 problem with my microphone.

14 In the original document it says here Curic, Cur, not Cor. And as

15 the witness said that this was drawn up by the team that was in Mostar

16 before he arrived, then I don't think there are any grounds for the

17 witness to say what it should or how it should or should not read because

18 he did not compile the report.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document is does not say

20 Coric but Curic. It's a U.

21 MR. STRINGER: I agree, Mr. President.

22 Q. Just going on, Colonel, could I ask you who at that time did you

23 believe was the minister for police that's referred to here?

24 A. Mr. Coric, I suppose, yeah.

25 Q. Okay.

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could he

2 state that directly, because there's the Ministry of the Interior,

3 including the regular civilian police, and there is the military police,

4 and in the military police there was no post of minister. So it would be

5 a good thing if the Prosecutor would specify what ministry he's referring

6 to and what the name of the ministry -- minister of the interior was at

7 the time.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The military and civilian police

9 and the civilian police was under the MUP. Mr. Milverton when talking

10 about the ministry of police is talking to which one? We don't know.

11 MR. STRINGER:

12 Q. Witness, have you read this passage now, the reference both to

13 Pusic and then Curic as the minister for police, who in your view is these

14 remarks referring to? And tell us their positions if you recall.

15 A. Mr. Curic --

16 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is

17 speculation once again, guesswork.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

19 continues] ... The Prosecutor and the witness, please. Ask your question,

20 and we need an answer.

21 MR. STRINGER:

22 Q. Colonel, I gave you the question. I can give it to you again, if

23 you like. I'm just asking you simply if -- if based on the context here

24 you can tell us who these are references to.

25 A. Yeah. This is related to a visit, and I got the information from

1 the HVO in Mostar. So it is Mr. Pusic as the deputy and Mr. Curic as

2 chief of the police.

3 Q. Okay. And my last question, the last exhibit I'm going to take

4 you to one of the exhibits of the 2D. It would be in the pink folder

5 there. I ask you to turn to Exhibit 2D 0016.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this was a letter that was shown to you during your

8 cross-examination, addressed by Mr. Stojic to the Spanish minister of

9 defence. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Okay. Now, turning to the second page, the top paragraph, the

12 first paragraph.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Stojic is writing here that based on expert analysis on the

15 type of the weapons and its calibre, it is determined that HVO members

16 could not cause mentioned effects from the distance of their positions and

17 with the weapons they had.

18 A. He's talking here about the shooting of Lieutenant Aguilar. He

19 adds: "Finally not even from the most prominent positions at the bank and

20 gymnasium buildings --"

21 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise, but it

22 is not my intention to upset the proceedings. I understand my colleague's

23 rights, but it is not proper to mention Mr. Stojic at this point. We're

24 talking about an investigation that was conducted and the report of that

25 investigation. Mr. Stojic in this letter presents the report of the

1 investigation which the Spanish Battalion compiled together with the HVO.

2 Now, if you put this into Mr. Stojic's mouth, it takes on quite a

3 different connotation.

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, this is a letter over the signature

5 of Bruno Stojic that was put to the witness by Mr. Stojic's counsel.

6 These are his words. That's it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Well, we have the letter.

8 So please ask the question.

9 MR. STRINGER:

10 Q. And the question is this: When Mr. Stojic refers to and makes

11 representations about those positions at the bank and at the gymnasium,

12 are those the same two positions that you discussed with him at the

13 meeting that you testified about earlier?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And what is it that he told you about those positions?

16 A. You said when we asked him about snipers from that positions that

17 he controlled them all.

18 Q. Now, did you ever yourself see shots coming from the blue bank

19 building at any time during your stay in Mostar?

20 A. We did.

21 Q. Okay. Did you know yourself that to be an HVO position?

22 A. We did.

23 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President, nothing further.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

25 intervene at this point and say that we should look at the first page of

1 this document, and on that first page of the document it says that these

2 are the findings of the commission. So I would like that to be taken note

3 of.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, fine.

5 If Mr. Stojic is involved, wants to take the floor, he can do so.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for Mr. Stojic.

7 THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] I rarely get up, but these

8 are the findings of the commission on the basis of an investigation

9 undertaken by the Spanish Battalion and the HVO a report was drawn up, and

10 on the basis of that report, Judge Trechsel, I sent a letter to SpaBat and

11 Bruno Stojic was not either at the glass building nor does he know where

12 the positions were. So don't shake your head. You keep shaking your

13 head, but that's how things stand. That's how it was. And I've noticed

14 that for a year now, Your Honours. I have to say that. I've never told a

15 lie in my life, but I compiled this report on the basis of the report by

16 the SpaBat commission and HVO commission. It was a very professional

17 commission.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: We're not in a phase that we have arguments. We

19 are hearing witnesses and there are different opinions and what you have

20 said we know quite well because we are able to read the documents.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Stojic, you are --

22 what you said is now going to be on the record. You explained that this

23 letter is just the conclusions of a commission involving HVO and the

24 Spanish Battalion. This is what you told us, and it's now on the record.

25 I just summarised what you just told us.

1 Now, the hearing is adjourned. Colonel, thank you. I want to

2 express our gratitude on behalf of the Bench to have come testify.

3 I also wish all the best to everyone, and after the vacation we

4 will meet again. Thank you.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.31 p.m.

6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day

7 of August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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